The NXR Podcast - THE LIVESTREAM - Is Scripture Sufficient For Politics？ With C.Jay Engel and Andrew Isker

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00:00:26.840 Well-known and beloved moderate centrist C.J. Engel ruffled feathers yesterday when he posted

00:00:36.480 the following, Scripture is sufficient to understand the gospel and be saved and to

00:00:42.800 inform righteous living. It is not sufficient to resolve political problems, create a sustainable

00:00:49.960 culture, give a people a united social vision, or provide practical guidance for living in the

00:00:57.540 material world." This episode is brought to you by our premier sponsors, Armored Republic and

00:01:05.540 Reese Fund, as well as our Patreon members and donors. You can join our Patreon at patreon.com

00:01:13.100 forward slash RightResponseMinistries, or you can donate at RightResponseMinistries.com

00:01:20.540 forward slash donate. So today, join us with my co-host, Wesley Todd and Michael Belch,

00:01:28.660 and in addition, special guest, Andrew Isker, and the troublemaker himself, CJ Engel, who will be

00:01:35.440 coming on the show to discuss his recent post, The Sufficiency of Scripture, and All of Christ

00:01:41.740 for all of life all right we all got the green memo today that's right texted it out 9 a.m we

00:01:57.900 all coordinated and aligned west would text something like that out but uh he would be

00:02:02.320 immediately ridiculed by both michael and i and so uh so he doesn't sorry i restrained myself

00:02:08.000 We'll bring you talking about that post.

00:02:10.280 Talk with the man himself who posted it.

00:02:12.280 Let's go ahead and just start off with what the New Testament says about itself.

00:02:17.220 It can almost feel like a bit of a fresh rune because in the 80s and the 90s and 2000s,

00:02:22.400 it was the battle for the inerrancy, the infallibility, and the sufficiency in many ways of Scripture.

00:02:28.300 There was a lot of higher criticism of theological liberalism that was really coming in and saying,

00:02:33.040 like, is the Bible really infallible?

00:02:35.480 Is the Bible really inerrant?

00:02:37.640 Does it really apply to all of these things?

00:02:39.660 I mean, for decades, you listened to Sproul talk about this.

00:02:42.460 I was listening to some of his lectures today, to Rush Dooney.

00:02:45.320 That was the battle they're fighting.

00:02:46.900 Scripture is reliable.

00:02:48.500 It is inerrant.

00:02:49.660 It is infallible.

00:02:51.220 Direct, plenary, verbal inspiration inspired in every word by God.

00:02:55.300 So that was the battle.

00:02:56.860 But then, so to hear kind of some of those that, you know, still remember that and you're

00:03:00.720 still living with that emphasis that the teachers of kind of a generation past put on it, to

00:03:04.920 hear someone from our camp kind of come and say, and hey, here's some practical areas where you

00:03:09.400 said scripture isn't sufficient. But hang on, didn't we just have this battle? Then we just

00:03:13.720 fight for it being perfect and the word of God and applicable and all of these things. So let's

00:03:18.600 just start off. Let's read what the New Testament says about itself and then talk about that

00:03:22.340 intersection of life and living and how God's word applies to it. So this is a classic and

00:03:29.220 I love it. I love how Paul's exhorting Timothy here. 2 Timothy 3.17, all scripture is breathed

00:03:35.960 out by God and profitable for, notice kind of the categories he lays out, teaching for reproof

00:03:42.280 or correction and for training in righteousness that the man of God may be complete, equipped

00:03:47.720 for every good work. So Paul's writing to Timothy. He's exhorting him to study and labor in the

00:03:52.380 scriptures. And he says it's for teaching and for reproof and for correction and training in

00:03:56.860 righteousness to the end result that the man of God is equipped for every good work. 2 Peter 1.3,

00:04:03.940 sometimes this is kind of merged together and blurred together with scripture. In the broader

00:04:08.560 context, it seems that Peter's more saying the Christian is equipped by God for everything he

00:04:12.740 needs in life. He says this, 2 Peter 1.3, his divine power, that is God's, has given us everything

00:04:18.700 required for life and godliness through the knowledge of him who called us by his own glory

00:04:23.760 and goodness. And so just to be kind of technical there, Peter's speaking more broadly that through

00:04:28.580 the knowledge of God, the man of God is equipped for every good work. He's equipped for life. He's

00:04:34.300 equipped for godliness. But specifically, Peter there is not speaking of Paul's writings or the

00:04:39.320 Old Testament scripture as he does in other places. First Peter, he starts off with that.

00:04:43.520 Later in 2 Peter, he talks about Paul's writings, which are difficult to understand.

00:04:47.220 In 2 Peter 1, though, that's not what's directly in scope. And then lastly, Hebrews 4.12, for the

00:04:52.120 word of God, there's dual application here, certainly of the scripture, but also of Christ

00:04:56.460 as a word of God, is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division

00:05:01.460 of soul and spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the

00:05:06.580 heart. That's Hebrews 4.12. And that's where scripture in the New Testament specifically

00:05:10.660 speaks most directly and self-reflectively about itself. Good. Yeah, a lot of it with this topic

00:05:19.040 and other topics as well but particularly this topic a lot of it comes down to the framing of

00:05:24.060 the debate right so um you can lose the argument before the argument even begins depending on you

00:05:31.940 know who gets to frame the debate who gets to set the terms the rules for the match so if you have

00:05:38.620 somebody who's moderating this kind of debate and they say in one corner standing you know six feet

00:05:44.980 tall, you know, weighing 185 pounds, ripped and shredded to the max, we have the sufficiency

00:05:52.180 of the infallible Word of God. On the other side, we have somebody who hates the Word of God

00:05:58.640 and trusts the reason of man more. Like, all right, you're done, you know? And I want to be

00:06:05.400 clear here. I think this is one of the reasons why people absolutely hate me and our podcast

00:06:11.860 and my ministry, public ministry. And at the same time, for those who are perhaps a little bit more

00:06:18.120 good faith and have been following along for a few years now and haven't just tuned in, you know,

00:06:22.920 15 minutes ago, this is why I think they like me. Because I'll be the first to admit that I am a

00:06:31.020 work in progress, that I am learning in real time. And whenever I change a position, which is not all

00:06:38.920 the time i don't change a position every week but i have changed a position within a year which is

00:06:43.720 still relatively a short period of time not a major position like justification i've been you

00:06:49.180 know a calvinist and holding to the you know the five solos and the tulip and those kinds of things

00:06:54.140 in terms of soteriology since 2007 now at this point so for a minute um but there are other

00:07:01.360 things where i'm still in development but what i like to do that i think the good faith actors

00:07:05.340 appreciate rather than despising and using as an opportunity for a cheap shot below the belt is

00:07:11.580 when i change a position um i'll actually say out loud that i changed a position i'll actually admit

00:07:19.040 it um there are other guys who change positions too um but they often will change positions and

00:07:25.460 pretend as though it's the position they held all along right i think that's one of the key

00:07:29.880 differences i'm a little biased but i think that's one of the key differences so that said about two

00:07:34.960 years ago, a year and a half to two years ago, I would have framed the debate the way that I just

00:07:41.000 said facetiously a moment ago. I would have said, in one corner we have the sufficiency of the Word

00:07:46.340 of God, in the other corner we have the reason of man and this arrogant person who thinks that

00:07:52.740 it's superior to God's Word. Today, I would frame it differently. One of the ways that I would frame

00:07:59.540 I mean, it is, I would kind of gravitate a little bit over towards the regular principle of worship.

00:08:05.880 I'm a regular principle of worship kind of guy.

00:08:08.120 We have a fairly, you know, it's, somebody could walk in and they wouldn't be lost on our Sunday morning, Lord's Day, worship gathering.

00:08:18.600 But in, as far as Baptists go, in the Baptist world, it's relatively high church for Baptists, which isn't saying a whole lot.

00:08:27.700 I acknowledge.

00:08:28.600 The bar is low.

00:08:28.880 But, like, we have a covenant renewal liturgy we call, you know, the sacraments, sacraments, instead of just ordinances and things like that.

00:08:38.880 And so it's relatively, yeah, the Apostles' Creed every single week.

00:08:42.720 That's, you know, in our confession of faith, which comes after, you know, the assurance of pardon, which comes after a corporate confession of sin.

00:08:49.420 And, you know, there's a call to worship, a prayer of ascendancy.

00:08:52.460 And then towards the end, you know, we take the Lord's Supper every week, not just once a quarter.

00:08:58.420 I appreciate Welch's in my personal life with my children who are very young from time to time,

00:09:04.540 but we are Welch's disrespecters on the Lord's Day.

00:09:08.440 We use wine, you know, so we're taking the Lord's Supper.

00:09:11.740 It's all culminating into communing with the Triune God.

00:09:15.780 John Owen, he talked about how the justification is the heart of the gospel,

00:09:20.880 but not the end of the gospel,

00:09:22.540 that the end of the gospel is actually eternal and perfect communion with the Triune God.

00:09:27.080 So it's not just rehashing over and over the means of salvation, but actually enjoying

00:09:32.280 what that salvation produced for us, which is reconciliation with God, communing with

00:09:36.780 Him in eternal bliss and joy and peace forever.

00:09:40.100 And so our service reflects that, that the gospel is preached in the liturgy always.

00:09:46.020 It is often preached in the sermon, depending on the text.

00:09:50.000 And I do believe the gospel is in every text in a large sense, not necessarily every verse,

00:09:54.880 but as Spurgeon would have said, maybe not every verse, but every chapter. And then that culminates

00:09:59.400 in the Lord's Supper, which is a part of our liturgy. And that's the bellying up and you have

00:10:03.520 the gospel there, but more than just the gospel in terms of the heart of the gospel justification,

00:10:07.920 but you also have the end of the gospel communion. We're actually sharing a meal

00:10:11.220 with one another and with the Lord. And so all these things, my point is that the regular

00:10:15.140 principle of worship matters. The regular principle of worship, just to flesh that out

00:10:18.320 for our listeners. It doesn't mean regular. Think regulated. The regulative principle of worship

00:10:27.040 means that you're only going to do in corporate worship on the Lord's day that which the Bible,

00:10:33.100 God's Word, clearly prescribes. The opposite position or the alternate position is the

00:10:39.000 normative principle of worship, which would assert that it's free game to do whatever the

00:10:44.720 bible does not explicitly forbid so as long as it's not forbidden right there's no verse that

00:10:49.440 says thou shall not use smoke machines so smoke machines are back on the menu you know um and so

00:10:54.680 we can do anything and everything and we will from you know uh cables that you know bring in

00:11:00.100 you know santa claus for you know sunday right before christmas you know from hanging from the 0.96

00:11:05.320 the chandelier here you know whatever we're going to do all those things as long as the bible doesn't

00:11:09.720 strictly forbid it whereas that's normative whereas the regular principle is the bible

00:11:14.200 regulates strictly what is permissible in Lord's Day worship. And it's not just that we avoid that

00:11:19.660 which is forbidden, but we only do that which is prescribed. So here's my point. The regular

00:11:26.120 principle of worship, which we adhere to, I do not believe that the regular principle of worship

00:11:32.460 applies 24 hours a day, seven days a week. I think it applies to our Lord's Day worship,

00:11:39.760 certainly when we gather as the church the ecclesia the gathering of the excellent ones

00:11:46.680 and all the earth the saints to preach the word publicly pray the word publicly sing the word

00:11:52.600 publicly in hymns and psalms and spiritual songs and see the word publicly in the only two images

00:11:58.560 that the lord jesus himself has actually prescribed as lawful for us in our worship that being

00:12:03.760 baptism in the Lord's Supper. So in that context, church, then I'm a regular principle guy through

00:12:10.420 and through. The Bible regulates. It's not just avoiding what is forbidden, but it's only doing

00:12:15.380 that which is prescribed. The regular principle of worship does not apply, not in any meaningful

00:12:21.900 way within the Reformed tradition to a Monday afternoon. The Bible doesn't talk about car

00:12:26.560 mechanics because there weren't cars at the writing of the Bible. And yet it is permissible,

00:12:32.160 even though I don't have an explicit command in Scripture to change the oil in my car,

00:12:38.960 it is absolutely permissible, and we would argue even necessary and prudent,

00:12:43.240 to go and get the oil changed from your car, or do it yourself.

00:12:48.320 And so that's how I would frame the debate now.

00:12:51.180 I want to say in one corner we have an actual Christian who is determined not to go to hell,

00:12:58.640 who believes in the sufficiency of Scripture, 0.82

00:13:00.940 And in the other corner, we have a rank heretic who hates Christ, who thinks the reason of man

00:13:05.860 is superior. Just a couple of years ago, I wouldn't have, I obviously wouldn't have said it 0.50

00:13:09.880 that, you know, that, you know, that, that hyperbolically, but I, but that's, that's how

00:13:14.900 I would have framed it. And, and that would have been dishonest framing. In my case, I can say it

00:13:20.860 was, it would have been ignorant framing, but I think others who do know better do it dishonestly.

00:13:25.640 whereas now i would say no no no the bible i don't think the bible ever claims to be

00:13:31.380 um the bible is sufficient but but the bible doesn't claim to be exhaustive

00:13:37.640 um in every single detail of human society and life the bible doesn't tell me um you know about

00:13:47.460 you know car car maintenance um and or plumbing and that's okay that's okay and so when it comes

00:13:55.180 a political life, my position is that I think the Bible does offer to us major principles.

00:14:02.020 This also gets into not just the sufficiency of Scripture, but also the perspicuity. Perspicuity

00:14:06.480 is just a really unclear word that means clarity, ironically. All Scripture, we believe in the

00:14:12.280 perspicuity of Scripture. That's a well-held Protestant belief. But we don't believe that

00:14:18.300 all Scripture is equally clear. We believe that the Bible is particularly clear on matters of

00:14:25.080 salvation, but perhaps less clear in other areas, which is why Christians can debate for centuries

00:14:33.380 over more secondary and tertiary issues, whereas there should be, apart from, in this case, rank

00:14:42.280 heresy, there should be uniformity and agreement on major primary issues, especially things like

00:14:49.840 doctrine of god and soteriology um so we think that all scripture is clear but there's a sliding

00:14:56.000 scale there are degrees of clarity and so i think both in the realm of sufficiency and certainly

00:15:01.520 in the realm of perspicuity um clarity the bible's level of exhaustive sufficiency and its degree of

00:15:11.720 particular clarity on a topic like like politics i i think is less than a topic like soteriology

00:15:22.440 salvation right and so i think the bible gives us the macro it gives us the big principles

00:15:27.860 like the bible does provide for us equal weights and measures in terms of what is just what is

00:15:33.160 justice but then how exactly to execute that justice um depends on people place time right

00:15:45.120 so i i think uh justice there's just in the macro there's the virtue of justice but then in the

00:15:51.920 micro um laws that that reflect justice god's standard of justice not man's that's set for us

00:16:00.440 But laws that accurately and helpfully reflect God's system of justice for driving on the highway, that had to be determined with prudence by people, and not in all times and all places, but particularly at the time that cars actually were invented in the places that had cars.

00:16:24.040 I don't think that's a crazy thought.

00:16:25.700 So do you guys have anything to say before we get ready to go to our first commercial?

00:16:29.680 Yeah, one thing is, it kind of dovetails together with what you were saying about cars.

00:16:36.420 1 Corinthians 10.31 says, whether you drink, dwell to the glory of God.

00:16:40.660 And I've heard from different people, I've heard one person say, there is no Christian

00:16:47.260 perspective on food.

00:16:49.320 You boil water, you make your mac and cheese, whatever.

00:16:52.080 And then I've heard other people say, there is a Christian perspective on food because

00:16:55.600 we don't eat our neighbors anymore, right?

00:16:57.820 And so there has to be, in my mind, at least an overarching way that Christians do all things for God's glory.

00:17:08.460 Now, to go with what you were saying about the car, Joel, it's a practical truth that if I take care of my car, that I change the oil, that I do the maintenance, according to the maintenance schedule of the manufacturer, the car is going to last longer, and that's going to cost me less money over time.

00:17:25.740 and maybe i can sell it for more and that's better stewardship that but that's my point

00:17:30.460 and stewardship is talked about that's my point i i as a christian want to add to that financial

00:17:36.040 benefit the tangent not the tangible the spiritual benefit of caring for my car in a way that pleases

00:17:43.620 god the the the natural man can take care of his car steward his car reap a financial benefit

00:17:49.800 sell it at a higher cost down the road, but he doesn't get the additional benefit

00:17:55.380 of having that done as an obedience to the Lord. I want to take care of the things that you give

00:18:00.780 Romans 14. It wasn't done in faith. Correct. Only a Christian can do something in faith. And I've

00:18:06.080 always defined that like not faith in general definition, but to do something, an action in

00:18:11.420 faith, I've always defined as simply as I can to do something in faith is to do it for the glory of

00:18:16.900 God with a reliance on his grace. To do it for God's glory, relying on God's grace. Go ahead.

00:18:23.060 So the question then, and we've been talking about categories, or we'll be talking about categories,

00:18:29.980 comes down to this. And this is a question I'm still thinking through, but

00:18:33.600 what is right then for a Christian nation, if we're aspiring to be, again, a Christian nation?

00:18:39.740 Well, to me, part of it is that the leaders and the people who actually are charged by God to

00:18:44.500 think through these issues, help the people think about how the things that they do that are maybe

00:18:50.660 derived by natural revelation, common sense, logic, but how do those reflect the fact that

00:18:58.520 we're a Christian nation, and how do they reap not just temporal good, but spiritual good as well,

00:19:03.580 by becoming ways of actually obeying and appreciating the design, the structure, the

00:19:08.860 character of the world that God has built, so that when we take care of our car, it's not just,

00:19:13.720 oh, I get more money. It's also, isn't it amazing how God set up the world? He wants me to be

00:19:17.720 faithful with this. This is a chance to be responsible, to be a good steward, and to

00:19:22.280 carry out my mandate in a small way of taking dominion and stewarding the earth.

00:19:26.860 Amen. Wes, any thoughts?

00:19:29.340 Gahardus Voss, he had a good series of lectures on natural theology, and he pinpoints that through

00:19:33.180 the church age, so it's easy to say, like, well, I'd go with the Word of God, right? Man's reason,

00:19:37.980 man's logic, man's principles, history, tradition, I'll take the Word of God. But the Reformed 0.98

00:19:43.500 tradition certainly, and even the Catholic, lowercase c Catholic tradition prior, from

00:19:47.820 Augustine through to Turretin, they definitely conceived of reality and nature and scripture

00:19:52.600 as two books. So God wrote the Bible, but then in the beginning God said, spoke, let

00:19:59.820 there be light. The world, the universe is upheld by the word of God's power. So God's

00:20:04.600 word, it is right here in the Bible. His written word that is infallible and this tree, this

00:20:10.620 set, me and you, were sustained by the spoken word of God. And that word speaks and reveals

00:20:16.700 things to us. It's not as though we have the Bible and God's word, and then everything else

00:20:20.720 is simply discerned and appropriated. And I'm aware of the argument of the reliability of

00:20:25.180 sense data. But if we assume the reliability of it, that we can perceive things as they are,

00:20:29.900 when we're actually saying, how do I solve this political issue? And I could look to scripture

00:20:34.640 and examples and analogs, try to bring them across and apply. Or I could look to history

00:20:39.980 and read Aristotle, we're not competing, do we take what God says for it or man? We're actually

00:20:45.220 saying in what way and manner has God spoken about this? A couple years ago, Michael, you remember,

00:20:51.620 my son actually got to the point where like discipline and parenting mattered. First couple

00:20:55.040 months, it's you survive, they eat, they sleep. There's not a lot of technique. But I was getting

00:21:00.040 to the point where, you know, like it was time for discipline. And I'd come up on all the classic

00:21:04.300 Christian parenting books, Shepherding a Child's Heart. And I felt it should be pretty simple,

00:21:09.220 right there's you got your verses discipline but then i realized the bible is shockingly lacking

00:21:14.720 in particulars or of spankings what age do you start what material do you always do the hand

00:21:21.260 if they reach out or they disobey you do you do all of those particulars the bible says a rod okay

00:21:26.480 that's fine right uh what what kind of rod wouldn't switch yeah what's it made up how big is it you

00:21:32.380 know like and then how many spankings exactly you know is it two three forty like and and it's

00:21:40.400 you're absolutely right like bible loving believers who love the word and know it well

00:21:45.380 that's one of the most common questions i've gotten as as a pastor is because they'll recognize like

00:21:50.640 um you know rebellion is bound up in the heart of the child and the rod removes it far from them

00:21:54.420 and these are people who love their children and love the lord and love his word these are not

00:21:58.980 abusive people i want to make that clear right and yet they've come to me and said like and like we

00:22:03.900 just had this all out you know battle like battle royale you know like it was like a war you know

00:22:11.400 like you know my wife was you know she was ducking behind the island you know wearing like a pot on

00:22:17.080 her head for protection like like our toddler you know was just was raging and you know and the bible

00:22:23.920 says that if we discipline them then that's going to fix it you know but um but it didn't fix

00:22:29.640 anything we we actually tried to discipline them uh we've got voices on here nate if you can take

00:22:35.560 care of that uh but we tried to discipline them and it didn't work right um and and they were still

00:22:41.880 rebelling and because they were still rebelling well we knew like we have to win this battle we

00:22:46.020 can't just you know what would that communicate to our child that if you you know if you just

00:22:49.960 keep rebelling, then eventually you get what you want. And so some of the practical wisdom

00:22:54.540 that I was able to offer them as someone who had more children and older children and had been

00:23:00.040 parenting longer was I told them, you know, we do it like a boxing match in rounds. So by God's

00:23:05.680 grace, our children have learned, and this would be a very rare occurrence now because our children

00:23:09.720 are very well-behaved children. But when they were younger, they were, you know, with a couple

00:23:15.340 of our kids there were occasions where um there's discipline there's not any uh repentance there's

00:23:22.980 defiance and actually the child is now further stirred up and even in more rebellion towards us

00:23:27.900 um and if you keep applying discipline in that moment and the only ultimatum the only the only

00:23:35.100 um way that you'll be willing to to relent is if the child submits and that child in that moment

00:23:41.500 is one a particularly young child that doesn't have a lot of wisdom and maybe a child who's

00:23:48.480 particularly strong-willed and they just then uh then if if your mindset if what you think

00:23:55.340 pleases the lord is i i won't stop disciplining until the child stops sinning then you're going

00:24:02.700 to discipline that child to death they're not going to stop there are times so so i that little

00:24:10.180 thing practical advice has been one of the most common pieces of advice that i've given to parents

00:24:14.020 is i say treat it like rounds you box and then you go to your corner so we would do two swats

00:24:20.720 oh you're not responding well you're you're yelling you're you're still angry you're arching

00:24:26.460 your back you're still in defiance you're not coming into fellowship you're not submitting 0.53

00:24:31.920 okay i'm going to leave you in your room instead of immediately going to that that next spanking

00:24:37.680 right we would no i'm going to leave you in your room and i'm going to give you a chance to calm 0.98

00:24:41.980 down and we would pray dear jesus please help so and so to calm down and to repent of their sin

00:24:48.460 i'm going to leave you in your room and i will come back and check on you and you better have

00:24:53.200 calmed down and be ready to apologize when i come back i come back it gives them a minute a minute

00:24:58.840 not just not just dealing with their fallenness the sin nature but their finitude the fact that

00:25:04.240 it's a two-year-old. It's a two-year-old. They're extremely finite, extremely fallen,

00:25:09.220 don't get me wrong, but also extremely finite. And so it's giving them a moment to collect

00:25:13.940 themselves and you're rooting for them. You're not against them. You're for them. You want them

00:25:17.800 to calm down. You want to aid them, want to help them. And so you give it two minutes. They still

00:25:23.040 haven't calmed down. Maybe you stand behind the door and listen a little longer, hoping and

00:25:27.020 praying, God, please help my little child to calm down. And then you come back in. Are you ready to

00:25:32.680 apologize you're ready to be back in fellowship you're ready to have a good attitude and and let's

00:25:37.520 say you know a lot of times it's yes but sometimes now they see you come in the door they say all

00:25:42.720 right now so we went to our stools like a boxing metaphor now it's round two pop pop you know and

00:25:49.960 then okay and and right after the pops they're not now they're the least calmed down right so

00:25:55.360 so but we're going back to our stools we're going back to our corners give you another chance

00:26:00.020 that little piece of counsel has been a lifesaver i've had more more than almost any counsel i've

00:26:06.720 ever given i've had parents say this is so helpful i've like no parenting book ever said this and the

00:26:12.480 bible doesn't explicitly say this i had no idea i thought that i was going to that ultimately i was

00:26:18.740 being disobedient to god and his word if i ever let up right and so like and and that like but

00:26:26.700 here's the deal um yeah the bible is sufficient for for for parenting i believe that in the macro

00:26:34.200 principles um but that little piece of big picture big picture but that little micro particular the

00:26:41.100 bible is sufficient in principles and certainly uh principles of eternal matters like salvation

00:26:47.620 the bible is not necessarily exhaustively sufficient in in um not principles but

00:26:53.840 particularities, especially particularities in categories outside of the eternal, things outside

00:27:00.200 of merely salvation. And if you don't get that, you are in danger of being a biblicist, which 0.95

00:27:06.020 sounds like a good thing, but it is not. And a biblicist parent, if they were being consistent, 0.57

00:27:12.900 would have to sit there and spank their child until they got quiet. And that might be 40 1.00

00:27:17.960 spankings in a row. And you better hope that your neighbors don't hear because you will lose your 1.00

00:27:23.740 child. What I was about to say is you didn't say, well, I tried the Bible's way, and I couldn't get

00:27:30.900 this child to calm down, and so I'm taking off the Bible's discipline, the Bible's principles,

00:27:35.580 and I'm stepping into, well, I'm going to leverage my reason and my logic to go ahead and figure out

00:27:39.620 how to solve the solution. Now, what you did is you discerned that human psychology, as God made

00:27:44.160 it, is such that we need space to calm down. When people are backed into a corner, what do we call

00:27:49.680 them like a caged animal a trapped animal people get defensive and so you recognize that god has

00:27:54.380 made the world such that people typically don't in a 30 second span back down from their position

00:27:59.160 and so discerning that that's how god made the world with the macro overarching biblical principle

00:28:04.160 of discipline and obedience and play you said i'm going to step back from this i'm going to give it

00:28:08.480 time and the point is none of that is you saying the bible's not enough we try the bible's parenting

00:28:14.420 way right got to toss it to the side you're same thing you're looking at god's word he made the

00:28:19.260 world this way, this is how people are, this is how sin works, and this is how I'm going to do

00:28:23.520 about it and actually navigate it. Amen. Because in the final analysis, in the ultimate macro

00:28:28.840 again sense, God's Word, what did it prove in the final analysis? Well, it proved to be true.

00:28:34.960 Rebellion really is bound up in the heart of a child, and the rod really does remove it.

00:28:40.440 Right. So none of what I just offered is in contradiction to the truthfulness and helpfulness

00:28:46.780 of god's word it's just particularities in the practical realm coming alongside the principles

00:28:53.420 in the spiritual realm and if you but if you don't have those categories right that's that's going to

00:28:59.500 be one of our episodes a couple weeks from now is on categories thinking in categories but a lot of

00:29:04.520 christians cannot chew gum and walk at the same time but by golly by the grace of god we're going

00:29:10.000 to need to learn too all right do me a favor uh like this video help us with the algorithm let's

00:29:15.660 get it out to as many people as possible. When you do that, it's not just trying to grow our

00:29:19.740 ministry. Yeah, I won't lie to you. I would like to see the ministry grow. You know why? Because

00:29:25.480 that means more numbers. Well, why do you care about numbers? Because they represent people,

00:29:30.320 and we want people to hear the Word of God. We want to help people. I don't know what to tell

00:29:34.840 you. So help us out with the algorithm. This is just part of the way that the world works,

00:29:38.820 especially the social media world. Like the video. It gets it out to more people. Comment

00:29:42.780 in the chat, if you're willing to. We'll try to engage the chat a little bit later on.

00:29:46.500 Go ahead and subscribe. If you're watching us live on YouTube, subscribe to the channel,

00:29:51.820 click the bell so that you're actually notified. Tons of people email me and say, I'm subscribed,

00:29:55.740 and I forgot about Right Response Ministries that you guys even existed. I didn't see anything from

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00:30:06.980 you don't follow us on X, you'll get the videos, but you'll also get some freebies like

00:30:12.480 uh, this afternoon, me, um, taking off, um, all the, all the EO bros, all the permanently online

00:30:19.180 denomination. I become a catechumen. I'm on a Twitter account. Yeah. I'm online a lot. I'm

00:30:25.520 online a lot, but, uh, but I can't hold a candle and it wouldn't need to be a candle to the EO

00:30:31.320 guys, uh, a candle with a particular kind of incense. And, um, I always, I'm fond of saying

00:30:37.020 it's not appreciated though. I don't get why, but I'm always fond of saying that, uh, Eastern

00:30:41.300 orthodoxy is uh essential oils for men so um that's that's my i you know i what i posted today

00:30:48.460 was i was like i i uh reject eastern orthodoxy on two accounts one biblical faithfulness um

00:30:54.260 and this is an order of priority of course uh biblical faithfulness number two um i'm an

00:30:59.740 american the american tradition is um it is specifically protestant it is a protestant

00:31:07.580 and then protest western and then protest um i don't like roman catholicism either at all i hate

00:31:13.680 trent trent literally anathematized the gospel so i i don't like that um but i will be the first to

00:31:19.240 admit although i think there are massive problems with rome uh roman catholicism which is not

00:31:24.640 uniquely american it still would be more compatible in america than eastern orthodoxy

00:31:29.240 simply by virtue of it being western so anyways uh go ahead over to x the handle is at right

00:31:36.120 response m at right response m so that you can follow all of our videos go live on x and you can

00:31:43.260 get the free bonus of joel you know making people mad um in between videos um you're welcome so uh

00:31:50.240 this is what we're going to do we're going to have andrew isker and cj angle they're going to hop on

00:31:54.380 the show right after uh this first commercial break all right the clock is running out you need

00:32:00.020 to go and register now for our Christ is King, How to Defeat Trash World Conference. It's happening

00:32:06.260 the year of our Lord, 2025, April 3rd, 4th, and 5th. That's a Thursday, Friday, and Saturday,

00:32:13.420 and by God's grace, we're able to provide for you an all-star lineup. We've got Steve Dace,

00:32:18.980 Calvin Robinson, Orrin McIntyre, Dr. Stephen Wolfe, Eric Kahn, David Reese, Andrew Isker,

00:32:25.560 John Harris, A.D. Robles, Dan Burkholder, Dusty Devers, Ben Garrett, C.J. Engel, and yours truly,

00:32:33.180 Pastor Joel Webin. Come on out. Join us April 3rd, 4th and 5th, 2025, Thursday through Saturday. Go

00:32:41.180 to rightresponseconference.com to register today. Again, that's rightresponseconference.com.

00:32:49.020 Okay, here we are. We're going to have Pastor Andrew and C.J. Engel joining us to talk about

00:32:56.960 our friend and well-known, beloved, moderate centrist, C.J. Engel, with a milquetoast,

00:33:07.040 boring take that should have offended no one, and yet it offended everyone. So you probably

00:33:13.000 can hear them right now i'm just uh talking unfazed but uh they obviously cannot hear me

00:33:18.820 so we're gonna keep working on it for a second as they get their audio figured out they're working

00:33:23.840 on it there we go can you hear us all right we've got the tennessee boys the tennessee titans is

00:33:31.320 that still a thing it's a football team yeah i know they're really really bad though oh they're

00:33:37.060 okay i didn't even know if it was still a team i'm not a small guy football team yeah andrew

00:33:42.200 Andrew's a sports ball guy. Are you, CJ?

00:33:44.900 No. What is sports ball?

00:33:46.620 Yeah, I don't really...

00:33:47.720 I forced him to watch a Vikings game with me

00:33:50.100 last week. It was fun. I got to see him

00:33:52.400 prostrate on the ground on his back.

00:33:54.040 I was about to say, that game did not go well.

00:33:57.000 That was the wrong game to show.

00:33:59.160 That's funny.

00:34:00.260 That's amazing. I got some live footage for premium

00:34:02.340 subscribers.

00:34:04.500 Nice.

00:34:05.860 This is a great idea.

00:34:07.880 This is a fantastic idea, Wes.

00:34:10.240 CJ, this is how I introduced you.

00:34:12.200 At the beginning of our episode, I said that we wanted to use a tweet from a well-known and beloved moderate centrist.

00:34:23.260 It's a milquetoast, middle-of-the-road tweet that should have offended no one.

00:34:27.120 And then we read it.

00:34:27.720 So do you want to read the tweet out loud and then tell us what were you thinking?

00:34:34.000 What was going through your mind?

00:34:36.300 So, like, yeah, I mean, first of all, I don't tweet after thinking.

00:34:40.240 I think about it after I tweet it.

00:34:42.200 the best way to tweet by the way find it what's that yeah go

00:34:46.300 west just said it's the best way to tweet it is go ahead and find it if you can't nathan can pull

00:34:54.240 it up no i i got it here so it says scripture is sufficient to understand the gospel and to be

00:35:00.600 saved and to inform righteous living and then the the kicker is that it is not sufficient to resolve

00:35:08.020 political problems create a sustainable culture give a people a united social vision or provide

00:35:14.240 practical guidance for living in the material world that's it that's the tweet all right what

00:35:20.900 do you think about it cj give us your thoughts yeah so what do you what do you think about the

00:35:25.000 responses to it whatever so there's a variety of different responses um you know like the people

00:35:32.540 i look up to um supported it the people i look down on hated it so that was good um i think

00:35:40.620 overall what i was trying to get at was um there's this tendency it's funny because like

00:35:46.280 the thing that came up was um the very theonomic um approach to politics obviously was one um

00:35:54.260 group of people that opposed it the other group of people was actually the ones that i was trying

00:35:58.400 to challenge, which is the people that, that try to, um, ask us to proof text every time we're

00:36:04.960 using a secular source. Right. So like if we use Aristotle, um, if we use other people that we're

00:36:10.860 not supposed to mention, like Carl Schmidt, um, other people that I've actually learned from James

00:36:15.540 Buchanan, James Buchanan, James Burnham, Pat Buchanan, others, um, that are not like derived

00:36:21.400 from scripture. Is that an appropriate use of, um, information of knowledge of, of contributions to

00:36:27.320 political and sociological theory? Is that an appropriate appeal? Can I make that appeal to

00:36:31.720 them? But also more generally, when we're crafting our approach to politics, can we use things like

00:36:38.520 common law, the Magna Carta, the US Constitution, Lockean political dynamics? Are these things

00:36:44.920 appropriate for use for the Christian in building a case for political action? And when I use the

00:36:52.780 word sufficient, what I had in mind is this definition of it's the only thing that we should

00:36:58.120 use. That's what I mean by sufficient. So the Westminster Confession refers to the fact that

00:37:04.400 the Bible is sufficient for being saved. In the context of the Reformation, they were making a

00:37:12.500 claim against Rome. The Bible itself is actually the only thing that a would-be believer needs in 0.83

00:37:18.180 order to inform um to be informed about you know what is required for salvation i don't think they

00:37:23.820 ever you know intended to expand that that understanding of sufficiency to things like

00:37:29.780 economics um you know political dynamics um historical analysis things like that i think

00:37:36.240 that it was a bounded uh rationale and that's what they were trying to do with that word

00:37:40.780 sufficiency though i use the word sufficiency very um specifically i i could have used necessary

00:37:46.500 i could have used authoritatively but i didn't because i think the scripture is necessary i

00:37:51.800 think it is i noticed that yeah i think it's and i think it's authoritative and all of these things

00:37:56.100 in all areas of life i just don't think it's the only thing therefore i i denied that it was

00:38:00.900 sufficient amen and i thought the exact same the moment that i read it i thought yeah i agree i

00:38:06.180 know what he's saying um and part of that is uh because carl schmidt remains undefeated um

00:38:11.900 cj is my friend and so and i don't mean because he's my friend he gets a pass no matter what he

00:38:17.200 says uh but what i do mean is that uh because he's my friend i um i'm going to read with the

00:38:23.300 deck not already being uh stacked against you from the get-go i'm going to read it you know

00:38:27.720 more charitably and more in good faith and those kind of things and but that was my first initial

00:38:31.940 thought was i was like uh if cj had said necessary um and i might have sent you a text and said hey

00:38:39.240 what are you saying uh but you didn't you didn't say because if it was uh the bible is not necessary

00:38:45.140 for political life like at all i'd be like wait a second but that's not what you said

00:38:50.880 when and so i took you to mean sufficiency in the sense of exhaustive right all-encompassing

00:38:56.640 the only uh the exclusive uh exclusivity the only source required whereas i'm thinking like

00:39:04.020 yeah you you can't you can't do politics with less than the bible but you need more you need

00:39:10.720 more than the bible yeah i mean the other thing too and it's not it's not even about just like

00:39:15.040 political theory or whatever it's like you know what does it mean to have a tranquil

00:39:19.740 social order what does it mean what does it mean to have a culture like there's other elements of

00:39:24.900 a culture there's language there's corporate myths there's shared memories there's um you know

00:39:31.700 like like patterns there's there's like the overcoming of struggles together there's um the

00:39:36.520 clothes that we wear the aesthetics that we're all pleased by these are all things that make up a

00:39:40.440 culture the architecture that we agree is beautiful beauty itself is part of a culture and you can't

00:39:45.760 just derive these things from logically deducing um in propositional form from the bible like

00:39:52.720 there's more to it there's more to um this is this is actually gets into like c.s lewis's men

00:39:57.940 without chests you know you're going to undermine the very nature the robust and and completed

00:40:04.300 nature of man if you deny him all of these other elements of good living um so like there's an

00:40:10.720 element of wisdom there's an element of learning from history and all of these things are actually

00:40:15.040 required including the bible as the very foundation and an infallible um source of authority that we

00:40:23.660 have, all these things are important to us. And I think that a lot of times these deracinated

00:40:29.500 American Western evangelical Christians can fall into this trap of refusing to look outside the

00:40:35.740 Bible. And they only do this, you know, they only do this selectively. Like they'll only like a good

00:40:42.500 example of this is actually like in Stephen Wolf's book, when so many people were frustrated with him

00:40:48.620 because he didn't list a proof text and every, you know, every step down the path, he didn't

00:40:52.760 was the proof text. And they criticized him for appealing to authorities outside the

00:40:57.940 preservation. Right. Same as the Antioch declaration. No proof text. Let's do this.

00:41:04.380 That's all that's really well said, CJ. I want to hear more from you, but also give Isker a second.

00:41:09.520 But real quick for the chat here, those of you who are watching us live, go ahead, please,

00:41:13.660 and start right now writing in questions for both CJ and Isker, because I'd love to be able

00:41:20.180 to engage, especially since it's Friday. I feel like Feedback Friday, it's got a good ring to it.

00:41:25.580 You might say, well, isn't that a Steve Dace thing? And I would say, it was. It's my thing now.

00:41:34.160 Anything I like is now mine. So I'm appropriating Steve Dace's thing. But Feedback Friday,

00:41:39.960 let's make it a thing. So in the chat, write your thoughts or help us put it in question form. If

00:41:45.680 you put it in question form, Nathan will go ahead and take those comments and separate that into a

00:41:49.840 category and I'll be able to read off questions for CJ and Isker. So Isker, what do you, what do

00:41:54.100 you think? Yeah, I think some of what, what CJ is saying too, um, it, like it applies to so many of

00:42:02.080 the, you know, hot button cultural things that are afflicting the church today. So like even,

00:42:09.060 even topics like, like patriarchy and, you know, male and female relations or,

00:42:15.580 or are men and women different right how do you address the trans issue right i mean there there's

00:42:22.540 there's plenty of bible this is what god created man you know male and female he created them

00:42:26.320 but uh there's there's a lot about the differences between men and women that is is simply assumed

00:42:34.300 by the bible right that uh that we all intuitively understand when you're a child

00:42:39.700 right that that men are bigger than women they're stronger than women um and and they they feel

00:42:47.000 different emotions of the exact same thing than you know men and women do differently uh and and

00:42:52.800 so like we we know all those things they're not spelled out for us in scripture uh but so you look

00:42:57.800 at like the complementarian debate from 20 or 30 years ago and what they wanted to do was like be

00:43:05.800 as reductionistic as possible. What is the bare amount that the Bible says about, you know,

00:43:11.700 a husband's authority over the wife and so forth. And, and to be as minimalistic as possible and

00:43:19.340 say, all right, well, yeah, I guess technically husbands have authority over their wives. So we

00:43:24.660 got to do that. And technically for reasons that are a total mystery to us, God says that men have

00:43:31.040 to be pastors and women can't um and and then that's it right and they even do things like i

00:43:37.340 don't know if you guys talked about um one of cj's interlocutors uh uh owen strayan but i'll

00:43:44.700 bring him up uh and uh right he uh he's you know uh losing it at cj on twitter and that doesn't

00:43:52.260 sound like owen that surprises me he's he's never done that he's never done that to me

00:43:57.420 i'm just kidding it's funny though exactly uh or me either uh but it's so funny because

00:44:05.220 right he he was involved in in that debate and instead of looking to uh what what so many i

00:44:14.800 mean just protestant rights reformed writers have said about the the distinctions between men and

00:44:19.620 women and their roles in society and so forth i mean all of this this heritage we have because

00:44:25.480 it relies on not just the bible it relies on common experience it relies on uh you know

00:44:33.440 naturally deduced uh things right so that's all thrown out so what are we going to do instead

00:44:38.780 we're going to fiddle with the trinity to try to come up with some explanation for why

00:44:43.620 why uh wives should submit to their husbands what we'll just say that jesus is functionally

00:44:48.580 subordinate to like they'll do that instead i mean something insane right to mess with the trinity

00:44:54.400 because you got to have a proof text and you need even stronger proof text than the proof text,

00:45:00.060 right? That's the concept. And so it's not a coincidence that like Owen Stray and, you know,

00:45:05.640 freaked out on CJ over this, because this is how people like that operate, right? You have to have

00:45:11.720 a proof text to justify whatever it is you already believed. So they wanted to be, you know, the

00:45:19.260 the bare minimum faithful to the bible yes we're gonna be complementarian and we we can't say the

00:45:26.460 reasons why everyone did patriarchy for all of human history um so we're gonna mess with the

00:45:33.040 trinity and so the same thing with anything political right they'll do that as well they'll

00:45:37.240 be like oh uh can a nation have borders and have an immigration policy well i mean there's there's

00:45:43.920 a couple of verses here and there about that but uh but then the they'll say like galatians 3 28

00:45:50.980 right there's no um there's no june or greek so we should have a multicultural society where 0.99

00:45:56.560 where you know i mean if we want to have millions of muslims running around raping girls in england 0.99

00:46:02.240 that's that's just part of it because there's no male there's no rather there's no um uh june or 1.00

00:46:07.620 greek so all how dare you andrew millions of millions of asian men yes it's asian men

00:46:14.500 yes japan did you know that a bunch of japanese people are currently in england

00:46:21.360 it's it's the japanese anybody really it could be anybody billions of possibilities but yeah

00:46:27.380 and and so yeah it's it's so like all of these things it's it all it's always a post hoc

00:46:35.960 justification using the bible to arrive at acceptable contemporary politics right that's

00:46:43.440 what these people always do that is what they always do you're right and i love how you use

00:46:47.700 the complementarian example and saying like well we have to find some kind of example in the trinity

00:46:51.960 and if you're unfamiliar with that uh to the listener the short version is this um is jesus

00:46:57.200 you know it goes like this is uh is the son equally divine to the father you know and equal

00:47:01.740 in terms of meriting worship and honor and praise and all this? And the answer, of course, is yes.

00:47:06.700 And then what they would argue is, yeah, but the son still plays while being equal to the father

00:47:11.160 in terms of divinity. He still plays a role of submission. But then, of course, the counter is

00:47:15.100 going to be, yeah, but that's because he took upon himself a second nature, namely the human nature,

00:47:19.360 and he was submissive to the father because he was fulfilling all righteousness and fulfillment

00:47:24.840 of everything that was said about him before the foundations of the world were laid. And so he did

00:47:28.160 that in his earthly life. And that's a pretty good counter. So then the counter to the counter

00:47:32.580 that you have to do with the ESF group, you know, or EFS, the Eternal Functional Subordination of

00:47:40.520 the Son, is going to say, well, actually, he's eternally even now, even in heaven, while seated

00:47:45.260 at the right hand of the Father, he's still in a role of submission while, you know, ontologically

00:47:50.620 he's equal to the Father in terms of divinity and majesty, but he's still, in terms of role,

00:47:55.940 you know the the economic trinity he is playing a um and you know long story short um one that's

00:48:02.160 bad trinitarian doctrine and two um i do think in large parts if you're trying to find a source of

00:48:08.800 what will you know what would possess a man you know what madness would drive him there you know

00:48:12.760 uh to the minds of moria you know like well uh the madness of feminism and uh and a weak man's

00:48:20.000 desperate attempt to prove that he's not a misogynist so well said uh can i read some

00:48:24.800 questions for both you and CJ, Michael and Wes also, if you guys got a thought here. But let's

00:48:29.920 start, scroll up just a little bit, Nathan. There's some really good ones here. Okay, this is a quick

00:48:34.980 one. This is from Michael. He says, what do you think are the best five non-Christian sources to

00:48:41.040 use to promote a Christian governing order? Non-Christian sources. That's a good question. 0.95

00:48:49.860 Well, so the framing is interesting because I wouldn't approach it in that way.

00:48:58.360 When I'm dealing with politics, I'm dealing with very practical problems, and I think one of the things that I continue to emphasize is that politics is not about blueprinting the ideal.

00:49:09.480 And if you approach politics in terms of it's about coming to the table, drawing out the way that a society should be structured, and then going out into the world and scolding people or whatever, coming up with means of attributing or obtaining this ideal, you're missing the point of politics.

00:49:29.320 the politics politics is very much about um dealing with the fact that we live in a world

00:49:35.360 of conflict and there's scarce resources and there's groups with a variety of different

00:49:40.200 interests and we have to work on protecting our own and confronting those that have um you know

00:49:47.020 a completely different vision of the world and you have to use power to do that like politics is

00:49:51.480 the theater of of power dynamics and so i i would i would disagree with the framing i i wouldn't use

00:49:58.420 a non-christian source to come up with a christian um you know blueprint of how government should be

00:50:04.820 that's not what i would that's not the that's not the function of the non-christian contributor to

00:50:09.860 yeah let me rephrase the question because it yeah like the question is it's still trying to arrive

00:50:15.560 at a universal principle when when you're saying that politics is particularist right it's it's

00:50:20.600 dealing with a particular situation so if i were going to rephrase the the listener's question

00:50:25.100 to be all right what five books would you say would be the best for from non-christians

00:50:32.000 to deal with the problems confronting christians in our in the united states of america today

00:50:39.980 right that that would be a better question i think right yeah i mean so then but then there's

00:50:45.140 the you know then there's the question of like are you are you talking about like how to like

00:50:49.240 what non-christian authors could i use in in training myself about how to think about political

00:50:54.500 problems right that's one thing um i would i would refer to people like edmund burke i would

00:51:00.680 refer to people like russell kirk or i mean both those men were christians but yeah but they're

00:51:05.740 not christian authors okay well that's fair yeah they are but in that sense carl schmidt is a

00:51:09.360 christian yeah i mean technically so like so they don't have they don't like i have like a theological

00:51:14.840 methodology about them yeah yeah it's not it's not uh like they're not theological books yeah

00:51:20.040 they're not theological books in fact the funny thing is that i'm thinking as more of a classical

00:51:24.280 thinker like all of these people are yeah i mean i would tell people to read like alinsky's rules

00:51:29.920 for radical not as a guide as like a framework of what ought but understanding the present

00:51:35.640 situation but understanding the is yeah yeah um and so concept of the political is a short book

00:51:41.640 too yeah say it again wes the concept of the political it's on youtube for free it's a short

00:51:46.220 book great read who's it by carl schmidt okay yeah i mean i'm sort of like a paul gottfried

00:51:53.700 stand so like i i think that like if you really want to understand like the present situation

00:51:59.480 like i would read things like his multiculturalism and the politics of guilt um you know i can't

00:52:05.460 believe you're recommending a jew while sitting next to andrew isker you know what i mean i've

00:52:11.380 been told i've been told by every major reformed leader that uh that isker and i we we wouldn't

00:52:20.380 even tolerate such a thing so i know right uh but it turns out they're wrong that's never happened

00:52:27.320 before one of paul's greatest contributions is like his dogmatic insistence that america is a

00:52:33.600 protestant country yeah like it's actually funny because like in in traditionalist conservative

00:52:38.480 circles you know everyone's kind of like returning to rome like that's like the thing to do i don't

00:52:43.240 know if you saw the twitter spat that broke out maybe you guys didn't see it when it's on the air

00:52:46.780 but like jay dyer wants to fight all of us uh yeah well that's good that's because of my tweet

00:52:52.100 did you see my tweet today yeah yeah that was a good one huh i'm like i'm like i'm like i need

00:52:58.100 to get joel a better picture of me so like jay dyer don't call me fat uh or or don't because 0.91

00:53:06.320 there's no better motivation to shit than to shed a few pounds than the entire public world 0.98

00:53:12.000 on the internet calling you fat you know i mean that's just about a powerfully motivated 0.99

00:53:15.640 dude you have no idea how much how hungry i am right now

00:53:19.600 you said something about how it was feed me friday and it like got me going

00:53:25.740 okay let's here let's do this there's a couple more questions i want to get to nathan go back

00:53:33.560 up for a moment um that's all the questions oh okay um so so one of them that i wanted to address

00:53:40.100 was uh so this is uh matt barouche i don't know does that sound right that sounds good all right

00:53:46.740 good enough matt brouche he says uh when it comes to psychology or counseling would you go outside

00:53:53.600 the bible for principles or techniques i'm going to take that one real quick uh what i would say

00:53:58.040 is i'm i you know land on biblical counseling as my position pastorally for people in our church

00:54:04.420 who are looking for counsel marriage counseling is usually 90 of what pastoral counseling is about

00:54:10.000 or counseling for parenting those kinds of things family related the reason why i reject i would not

00:54:17.420 look to modern psychologists for help is because all truth is god's truth the problem with the

00:54:25.700 modern psychologists is they don't have any of god's truth they actually modern psychologists

00:54:30.880 actually for the most part hate god and so psychology literally even within you know god's

00:54:35.840 written two books, special revelation, 66 books of the Bible, the canon, but also natural

00:54:40.260 revelation. The problem is that the psychologist hates both of those books. He hates natural

00:54:45.380 revelation just as much as he hates special revelation. The psychologist, at least pop

00:54:49.560 modern-day psychologist, you know, for us as Christians, we're saying, well, Jesus is the

00:54:55.160 ideal man. He's the perfect man, the God-man. So that's what we're trying to shape people into.

00:55:00.500 That's the process of sanctification being formed more and more to the image of the Son. And so

00:55:05.260 here's the end, the end game. And then also, there has to be good, not just theology, but

00:55:09.760 anthropology. Who are we currently? What is man? You know, and what are my problems? And so,

00:55:16.960 if this is Jesus, Jesus is over here, he looks like this, and this is man, you know, apart from

00:55:22.780 Jesus, and he looks like this, and now I know that my A and Z and which direction to go. Well,

00:55:28.680 psychology misses both of those. It misses who Jesus is, and it also has bad anthropology,

00:55:33.640 misses who man is. Psychology is literally the opposite of what the Bible says. For us as

00:55:39.840 biblical Christians, we would say on the outside, the exterior, man can do incredible things,

00:55:44.000 suspension bridges and trigonometry and rockets and all these different things because he's made

00:55:48.620 in the image of God. So on the outside, man is not a parasite or a mere consumer, but a lowercase

00:55:53.700 C creator in the image of God himself. But on the inside, he's totally depraved. Well, pop psychology 0.99

00:56:00.100 is basically there's really no difference in worldview from disney um it's the exact opposite

00:56:05.480 so they would say on the outside man is just consumers and that's why we need to abort babies

00:56:09.660 and have less people because we'll be overpopulated because people produce less than they consume man

00:56:14.080 is parasitical externally but internally um there's a there's a precious dream in his heart

00:56:19.380 and he's actually beautiful and wonderful and so um that's why i wouldn't go to psychology um but

00:56:24.880 But the bigger principle that I garner from this question, when it comes to psychology or counseling, would you go outside the Bible?

00:56:32.980 There's one more question on this, too, for the pastors.

00:56:35.680 Okay, scroll down, Nathan.

00:56:37.660 Oh, some guy.

00:56:38.520 Here it is.

00:56:39.060 And so he follows it up and says, question to Andrew and Joel as pastors, when it comes to counseling, would you go outside the Bible to external psychology?

00:56:45.300 So that's basically what I'm answering right now.

00:56:47.800 No, I wouldn't. But it's not because the psychologist relies too heavily on natural revelation and doesn't give enough proof text, chapter and verse. It's because the psychologist hates natural revelation as much as he hates special revelation. That's why.

00:57:05.420 I have an answer to that. I mean, I, I mostly agree with you, Joel. Uh, there is, I mean,

00:57:10.740 there is like one field of psychology that, that I find, um, you know, really interesting and has

00:57:17.880 a lot of insights and that's, uh, like family systems therapy. Um, so there's, there's a really

00:57:25.280 good book on this is, this is, I mean, this is a theme here today, uh, by, uh, by a man named,

00:57:31.640 Edwin Friedman, who is, I believe he was a rabbi, but he was drawing on the psychology

00:57:38.960 of another Jewish psychologist. 0.85

00:57:41.360 Shut it down. 0.93

00:57:42.800 Shut it down.

00:57:44.120 He's going to be interviewing Clayton next for family.

00:57:46.760 Yeah, that's right.

00:57:47.620 Yeah, that's right.

00:57:48.840 But no, no, like the, like, so one of his books that I think is, is, is really good

00:57:55.180 because it's, it's way outside the mainstream of psychology.

00:57:58.720 That's part of it. 0.99

00:57:59.600 So like when I say I agree in principle, like, yeah, the majority of psychology is just garbage. You're right. And so what his book, like Generation to Generation, like it looks at all sorts of different problems as they occur in families, typically, from one generation to the next, why certain things tend to happen within families and are passed on from father to son and mother to daughter and so forth. 0.99

00:58:27.940 um and it looks at at individuals not merely as individuals but part of an organic whole

00:58:35.140 um so it's uh you know the theonomists are going to love when i said but it looks at the world

00:58:39.900 covenantally right like that that you aren't merely an individual you are an individual but

00:58:44.900 you aren't merely one right you're connected to um to other people and other people have an effect

00:58:50.620 on, on how you feel inside, uh, on your behavior, uh, and so forth. And, you know, I think that book

00:58:57.980 does a really good job. Uh, I mean, there are, because it's not Christian, there are things that 0.99

00:59:02.580 they, that, um, that I think he gets wrong and you have to, you have to read it with wisdom, 0.95

00:59:07.540 right? You can't just take it and, and copy and paste it into your brain and think that this is

00:59:12.700 just perfect, but, but there there's wisdom there to, that can be applied. Uh, and so I think they,

00:59:19.020 that this author and um the the people that he was influenced by right they noticed something

00:59:25.620 about god's world and and the structure of god's world um uh and and i think it's really useful um

00:59:33.220 so i wouldn't i wouldn't reject it categorically but i mean uh i i mostly would and would say

00:59:40.360 there's a you know a few exceptions um but yeah yeah so it's there there are things to be gleaned

00:59:47.800 but not there's not very many of there's not very many of them uh not very many well yeah so

00:59:54.440 you know my perspective on this first of all is i think like like modern psychology is bunk

01:00:00.300 yeah you know but i think i think the more important lesson here like tom cruise knows

01:00:04.260 more about modern psychology like that's a good example is like okay there's a non-christian that

01:00:10.460 we can drop on like tom cruise uh being interviewed by matt uh lauer right uh two non-christians uh

01:00:16.720 having an argument about psychology i'll go i'll go tom cruise uh like crazy right but anyway sorry

01:00:23.260 i interrupted you no i mean like that's that's a typical thing that happens but so but i i i agree

01:00:30.560 with that for sure i think that the broader question is like the bible came from a certain

01:00:34.980 metaphysical background and it assumed a certain um nature of of man and his relation to the world

01:00:42.020 in history i think that's much healthier so um in general it's because of the the soil in which

01:00:49.840 the bible was written and god set up this metaphysic and history that produced something

01:00:55.860 like the bible and so therefore the bible i mean not therefore the bible is good but the bible is

01:01:01.900 is good in in the same way that other texts can be helpful yeah the bible of course is the

01:01:06.800 foundation of of all of these counseling problems and you have to get into the realm of sin and you

01:01:12.640 have to get into the brokenness that comes from spiritual decay and the bible of course is the

01:01:17.820 foundation of all of those things but at the same time i think we are living in a way that's at odds

01:01:23.020 with um the the created order and i think that a lot of classical authors understood the created

01:01:28.800 order just naturally and organically much better than we do today and all of our expertise and

01:01:34.120 credentialism yeah they they lived in a world that was real right they lived in the world that

01:01:39.160 god had created they didn't they didn't live in trash world and and so it it everything in in our

01:01:46.440 world is totally inverted and so if you're drawing on on sources today right they believe men can

01:01:52.000 become women and so forth like they believe in insane things so how could you trust like this

01:01:58.520 stuff you know you you could glean some very like some very important wisdom from um the lessons

01:02:06.420 of of the greek tragedies there's a lot there that speak to the despair that modern man feels today

01:02:14.440 and so that's what i mean by the fact that the bible was was born into this soil of rich

01:02:20.340 classical thought and i think that all these things are important um so i don't like as like

01:02:26.500 On principle, I don't say I never look out to the Bible, but the Bible itself is the preeminent solution.

01:02:33.380 It's the preeminent expression of God's mind in a way that pop psychology just doesn't have the presuppositions to hold a candle to.

01:02:41.340 You can't even approach it at all, yeah.

01:02:43.840 Let's go to the top real quick, Nathan.

01:02:45.460 Scroll up.

01:02:45.900 That's good, guys.

01:02:46.500 I appreciate that.

01:02:47.500 There's one more question I want to get to, and then we need to do our last commercial break, and we'll come back for maybe a couple more questions and some concluding thoughts.

01:02:54.280 So this is from Truddle.

01:02:55.980 he says how do we stop nathan already had the cursor right there because we've been working

01:03:00.380 together nathan is my cousin we're literally related so we've been working together technically

01:03:05.380 in the technical sense for 36 years it's like 36 years what were you working on well originally

01:03:09.320 we were working on things like donkey kong you know or building a tent you know in a fort in

01:03:14.580 the backyard but in some capacity one way or another we've been working together for a long

01:03:18.160 time so he he knew what question i was going to truttle he writes this how do we stop mask up

01:03:24.520 stay safe if anything is on the table, right? That's what I hear you saying, CJ. I hear a

01:03:30.000 Jordan Peterson-esque view of the Bible from you. If anything's on the table, CJ, wasn't COVID wrong

01:03:36.740 because it violated... No, let me finish the question. I'm being facetious, but wasn't COVID

01:03:42.000 wrong because it violated the regular principle of politics? It's a good question. I appreciate

01:03:48.080 Trudl, thank you. I appreciate you putting it in, but I would actually have a strong no to that,

01:03:53.320 but uh but i want to hear yeah go ahead cj you go first but let me repeat it one more time how do

01:03:57.520 we stop things like mask up and stay safe in 2020 if anything is on the table wasn't covid wrong

01:04:03.640 precisely because it violated the regular principle of politics and shuttle agrees with

01:04:07.960 us he's on our side he might be kind of like pointing out just like how do we kind of answer

01:04:11.420 the objection right if it's all up in the air right exactly he's with us but he's yeah asking

01:04:16.500 a good question what do you think cj yeah like i've never held a position that anything goes

01:04:21.820 like the state can do whatever it wants i mean this there's a there's a strong sense of like

01:04:26.460 you know um the state the state against history and like so this is what this is the one of the

01:04:31.320 things that i think you know maybe i'm i stress more than a lot of other people is what i call

01:04:36.160 the sanctification of history and the fact that um we have these historical norms that i think

01:04:42.940 um are authoritative that history actually is authoritative in terms of delineating what is

01:04:50.060 right and what is wrong for a state to do and if you know like we can appeal to the scripture and

01:04:54.620 there's there's warnings against tyranny and the sufferings of man that come from that but i also

01:04:59.300 think at the same time that heritage heritage can can be an argument in and of itself and i think

01:05:05.260 that our heritage is one of of these types of medical freedoms and i think that that in itself

01:05:10.140 is a justification for things but my argument is never that yeah the state can do whatever it wants

01:05:16.200 But rather, there's a clash of group interests at play. And these things are harmful to the expression of Western man in fulfilling the way of living that we've inherited. And so that, I think, is a justification for itself. I think that history provides its own justification. Our freedoms are particular to us, and we have a duty to uphold them as recipients of what our ancestors carved out for us.

01:05:43.320 Yeah, I think that's a good point. Yeah, I would just add to it that history, tradition, everything else, these are authorities, right? They aren't the final authority, and you're not making the argument that they're the final. The Bible is the final authority.

01:06:01.360 But when you reject that lesser authority and you say all we have is the Bible, right?

01:06:08.060 Then you're left with the legions of evangelicals who just said, well, Romans 13, right?

01:06:14.560 Romans 13, you got to obey them.

01:06:16.680 You got to do what they say, right?

01:06:18.480 But it's like, no, you have this history and tradition of American freedoms that our ancestors left us and preserved for us over generations.

01:06:31.140 that we're we're drawing upon that no you can't do this yeah right you're not allowed to do this

01:06:35.460 because we are americans yeah like that that's a valid argument it is a valid argument that's

01:06:42.180 a valid argument right we don't do that i didn't know it's a great argument i remember andy you

01:06:46.740 talking to me about uh a hotel uh in your small town when you were in um minnesota michigan or

01:06:53.140 where were you i was in minnesota yeah minnesota i've been in one time yeah and the and the you

01:06:58.740 you know, the bottom floor, like the, uh, the foyer, you know,

01:07:01.480 it kind of was turned into like a flea market and you're like,

01:07:04.000 it's a perfectly, perfectly valid argument to make to say simply to go to the

01:07:08.120 owner and do so, you know, respectfully and politely say, um,

01:07:11.640 we don't do that here. This is America. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And so, uh,

01:07:15.620 let, let me, let me, uh, take a crack at it.

01:07:17.820 And then I'm going to give it to Michael and Wes and make sure that they get a

01:07:20.060 chance to speak. And then we'll go to our commercial and we'll come right back.

01:07:22.900 Um, but that same question. So how do we stop, uh, the mask up,

01:07:26.140 stay safe kind of rhetoric, things like that, overreach, tyranny from the government,

01:07:30.120 if anything is on the table. Wasn't COVID wrong? Wasn't our mechanism as Christians

01:07:34.940 to say, well, it's the Bible. It's wrong because the Bible says that the state's job is to bear

01:07:42.000 the sword against the evildoer, and the state in this particular instance is overstepping its

01:07:46.640 jurisdiction, and so that's why it's wrong, and so we're going to worship anyways. My answer would

01:07:51.040 be um that that would be a lot of my rhetoric back in 2020 uh four would that be yeah four years ago

01:07:57.160 now uh that would have been a lot of my rhetoric is it four years or five years it'd be five or

01:08:02.360 five oh my goodness gracious almost five years so that would have yeah that would have been a lot of

01:08:07.660 my rhetoric is i would have said stay in your lane state you know um you know hashtag libertarianism

01:08:14.400 ron swanson you know whatever um but now i like here's it so here's the thing so let's just let's

01:08:20.960 just played out for a second um is so is it is it always a sin to miss church like is it ever

01:08:27.780 permissible in the sight of god for a christian who's a member of a visible church local church

01:08:33.540 to miss church when they're sick right and and like can can you miss church when you're sick

01:08:39.320 if you're burning up you have 103 fever you know you've got the flu this that the other

01:08:42.740 um are you is it permissible for you to stay home and and i would say yes it is um but but then what

01:08:49.720 the next thing that this is what we're all we we just assume this it's it's it's inescapable what

01:08:56.420 you're what you're having to interpret is two books not one you're looking at special revelation

01:09:01.080 and all that you know so the hebrews passages you know do not forsake the gathering you know

01:09:04.920 and especially all the more as you know that you see the day drawing you yes and amen a million

01:09:09.220 times uh but but the second book natural revelation is i need to be able to say uh well am i sick am

01:09:15.260 I contagious? Am I going to subject everybody else to being sick? In other words, the pushback on

01:09:21.200 COVID, we weren't, the church wasn't prepared for it. So half of the church just, you know,

01:09:25.300 just they're like, give me another jab, govern me harder. I love it. You know, and then, you know,

01:09:30.100 and then, and then the other half, you know, we have, it was way more than way more. You're right.

01:09:34.240 Way more. So 80%, 90%. And then the good guys still, like we were, you know, we were top tards

01:09:40.080 in the lord's army you know like we meaning we took the right position but but we got there 0.81

01:09:44.580 we weren't very brilliant is is the point uh myself you know the chief chief of tards and so

01:09:50.160 i you know i i i landed on the right position but um but it wasn't well fleshed out because now what

01:09:56.020 i would say is uh no we resisted covid uh one because we're not going to miss you know a year

01:10:02.040 and a half of church because of what the scripture says but also because it's not a real thing

01:10:07.420 covid's not real like yes it is it is a cold it is like it's a sniffly nose if i miss church

01:10:14.560 right now as a father of five from ages zero to seven young children if i miss church every time

01:10:21.860 a member of my family had a sniffly nose i would never be in church i would have to miss the next

01:10:27.460 20 years of church and you will i can vouch for it right and so well here's the deal that's covid

01:10:33.720 That's COVID.

01:10:34.500 If you're 400 pounds, you've already had triple bypass surgery, and you're 90 years old, then

01:10:39.500 yes, you're in trouble, and you can shelter yourself.

01:10:42.940 For everybody else, you were fine.

01:10:45.920 You really were fine.

01:10:47.760 And so my point is, but here's the thing.

01:10:49.580 How did we conclude that?

01:10:51.200 Not exclusively from Scripture.

01:10:54.240 We concluded that by observation in the natural world.

01:10:58.680 we concluded that by eventually we were able to get our own hands on uh the the medical data and

01:11:05.360 the studies and eventually we each of us probably contracted covet ourselves and we were able to

01:11:10.860 experience the symptoms and this and that and so over time we were able it's not just like over

01:11:15.340 time we did more and more bible studies and then as our bible studies became more potent then no

01:11:20.180 it was also it was it's not just god's first book of special revelation the scripture but also the

01:11:25.440 second book. The reason why we should have told the government to pound sand and take a hike

01:11:30.500 on that particular issue is on both grounds, not merely one. It's not just because Hebrews 0.99

01:11:35.480 tells me in chapter 10 not to forsake the gathering of the saints, but it's also because 0.88

01:11:40.220 the government is telling me to forsake the gathering of the saints for a dumb reason, 0.77

01:11:45.500 for a dumb natural reason. Because here's the deal, if you just make it ideological 0.93

01:11:51.200 in a biblicist mode, well, if you apply that consistently, then you can't ever miss church

01:11:57.060 for anything. So if you have 103 fever, like a lot of the guys, if they were beat, and I'm talking

01:12:02.240 about the 10% that did good on COVID, the good church guys who still gathered, those guys,

01:12:07.120 myself again included, I'm putting myself in there, but if we were perfectly consistent with

01:12:13.140 the rhetoric and the type of arguments we were using to defy the civil magistrate, to continue

01:12:19.620 gathering um as a church if we were perfectly consistent with those arguments then we would

01:12:24.540 have to never miss church if we're perfectly consistent if i'm sick i better go to church

01:12:29.800 if i'm going to be consistent with what i was saying in 2020 you know so uh michael thoughts

01:12:34.640 from you west thoughts and then we've got to do commercial i'm going to reserve mine because one

01:12:38.540 of the questions mirrors something i wanted to bring up so i'm going to i'm going to as i say

01:12:42.300 in congress i'm going to reserve my time yeah and i'll pass it to west and i'll make mine after the

01:12:46.460 All I would say is this is why politics is tough is because there's no retreat of a certain ideology that fixes everything.

01:12:54.920 Like this is why smart people that could dedicate just about all of their time that were like had land and children.

01:13:01.060 Like that's why they typically did politics in the ancient world, because there is no one size fits all universal system that will protect against excesses like covid and restrain freedom and all of that.

01:13:10.420 And so it's a great question, and it gets to why politics actually has to be done in a careful, labored, precise way by men, men, that are intelligent enough to do it.

01:13:21.980 Because there is nothing, no law in the books and no system, even theonomy, that would perfectly insulate you from something like that without running into a ditch somewhere else on the other side.

01:13:31.840 Amen.

01:13:32.480 All right, here is our last commercial break for the day.

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01:14:39.840 America is a country that was founded 1.00

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01:15:16.200 All right, we are back. We're back.

01:15:18.720 This is a question that's specifically for CJ.

01:15:21.260 Let's just make sure that we still got him.

01:15:22.760 Do we still have Iskra and CJ?

01:15:24.340 You.

01:15:24.960 Yep.

01:15:25.240 We've got him.

01:15:26.060 Hello.

01:15:26.360 They're here.

01:15:26.780 Andrew changed.

01:15:27.440 all right can you guys hear us can you hear us cj okay they can hear us all right so here we go

01:15:34.500 this is a question uh specifically for cj it is from matthew owens and then there's one more

01:15:39.240 michael that you wanted to address right um so owen says uh cj what are your thoughts on james

01:15:46.540 buchanan uh and others like gordon tulick in the public choice school that's a tough one i haven't

01:15:54.400 done my economics in a long time um i don't i don't have i don't have a fully prepared answer

01:16:00.180 for that like in the context of what i was studying public choice theory i was i was very

01:16:04.720 much like a mosesian like a methodological individualist so i actually haven't gone back

01:16:10.560 and redone my my thinking on economics so i can't give an informed opinion on that right now

01:16:14.880 okay all right and then here's the other question and michael do you want to ask it and then you

01:16:20.000 have thoughts on it also because um i'll ask the question but to preface it um cj you said

01:16:25.800 something interesting earlier about the the fact that the the art of politics is not about pursuing

01:16:33.260 the ideal necessarily or about laying down a blueprint the perfect blueprint it's about

01:16:38.960 dealing with reality um and achieving goals so i think one of the things that comes up is people

01:16:45.500 look at the writing around the constitution the declaration of independence and i know even then

01:16:51.200 there were political compromises even the bill of rights was a political compromise nevertheless

01:16:55.300 it seems like that was a time where um the founders were perhaps uniquely in history

01:17:01.920 being able to say what kind of system do we want and so i think a lot of modern christian thinkers

01:17:10.220 look at the founding of America, and they say that's normative politics, where they were shooting for

01:17:16.060 a particular ideal, who are we as a people, who are we as a society. And so my question,

01:17:21.980 and then I'm going to read the question that's related to this, is that a disconnect? Is that

01:17:25.480 a wrong way? Should we not look at the founding of America and conclude political things? Were

01:17:30.400 they doing something different? And then Easy Mac asks, in conjunction to that, what's an example

01:17:35.100 of something the Bible does not address specifically? But then he says, the principles

01:17:38.660 that the founders followed could, to my mind, always trace back to patterns in the Bible.

01:17:45.700 I think one of the cool things about history is you see this unfolding of different ways

01:17:53.260 that particular people have resolved their particular struggles in ways that relate to

01:18:00.100 each other. And so one of the things about the Constitution that's interesting is the great

01:18:04.440 debate was, is monarchy preferable? Should we give power to, you know, should we have something like

01:18:10.320 popular sovereignty? And so there are all these, you know, there are all these particular interests

01:18:14.900 coming to the table, you know, you had these agrarians, you had these, you know, people that

01:18:18.940 were much more interested in appealing to, like the demos, the people that, you know, the people

01:18:24.020 at large, those are the popular sovereignists, then you had much more of the elitists who were

01:18:28.580 worried about the fact that if you give too much power to the people, they would, in a corrupt

01:18:33.520 fashion undermined the traditional institutions of stability. And so I think the Constitution is

01:18:39.180 brilliant in the sense that it really was an attempt to check and balance all of these

01:18:46.160 different influences and all of these different power impulses. And they recognized actually

01:18:52.820 uniquely in history, maybe, that people like Alexander Hamilton realized that politics actually

01:19:00.360 was this balance of powers at all times. And you always have to be aware of which power block

01:19:09.860 was threatening to undermine other blocks of power. And so it really wasn't this ideal at all.

01:19:16.860 I think it came about because they were recognizing the fact that if any one faction was getting too

01:19:21.740 much power, it really was this compromise, very particularistic government. I'm also not one that

01:19:27.280 says um that we need to go back to my monarchy but at the same time we can't um idolize you know

01:19:33.640 the constitutional republic like these things are always particular they're always situational

01:19:38.120 situationalist i think at the time you know the constitutional structure was a good way of dealing

01:19:43.840 with um the the particular threats and and um you know like uh claims to power that that different

01:19:50.960 um you know constituencies had and so i think that all of politics was this way and i think that that

01:19:56.420 Alexander Hamilton, James Madison, even Thomas Jefferson, although he's much more ideological,

01:20:02.540 I think a lot of them saw this great tradition in classical European politics that very much was

01:20:09.380 a compromise. It really was this tentative settling of different political dynamics.

01:20:16.000 Roger Scruton talks about this all the time, that one of the essences of politics is tentative

01:20:21.440 compromise, where everything is always, you don't set in stone for all time a single system. I think

01:20:28.340 the Constitution was good for what it was, but as John Adams said, it was only meant for a moral

01:20:32.580 people. And so therefore, when you lose the morality of the people, what are the ramifications

01:20:37.760 of that? So we always need to be rethinking, what are the exceptions? The Constitution was never

01:20:42.460 meant to cover all people for all times. It came in the soil of a certain circumstance, a certain

01:20:48.520 historical situation and it was good for that situation but i don't think it's an ideal that

01:20:53.640 has to be applied to every single people group in every single context of the world for instance

01:20:58.000 the constitution doesn't actually speak to um our you know like it doesn't actually speak to

01:21:04.800 the fact that ngos are basically sponsoring the replacement of western peoples like it doesn't

01:21:10.900 it doesn't have any dynamics to deal with that and so you have to come up with states of exception 0.55

01:21:14.960 and deal with that. That's politics. Politics is dealing with the state of the exception

01:21:19.200 at all times. You always have to be determining when does the law apply? When does the constitution

01:21:23.720 apply? These are very dangerous things we're talking about, for sure. But the consequences

01:21:27.600 of ignoring them may actually be greater. That's well said. Let me take a crack at this

01:21:34.040 one real quick, and then I got something I want to tell Andrew. So this was EasyMac 308. You

01:21:38.800 already read the question, right, Michael? I'll read it one more time, just for guys who are

01:21:41.880 hopping in right now live. What is an example of something the Bible does not address sufficiently

01:21:48.220 when it comes to political life? I would say immigration. This was one of the big ones that

01:21:57.120 the Lord, I think, providentially used for me to open my eyes, to move me from a capital T

01:22:03.280 theonomist to a general equity, lowercase t theonomist, emphasis on general equity,

01:22:08.680 uh aka just you know the 1689 or westminster confession you know just being a confessionally

01:22:14.380 reformed um and and here's how i thought about it because because i talked to uh many notable

01:22:19.880 theonomists about it and i asked them so i i gave it a fair shake um and i said you know so

01:22:25.700 what what is the theonomic position what is the you know the chapter and verse presuppositional

01:22:31.580 you know, um, uh, bulwark that's going to, uh, protect, um, Americans from losing every single 0.99

01:22:40.260 one of their jobs to a bunch of Hindus. I would like to know, I think that that seems like, 1.00

01:22:45.360 you know, like if we're saying the Bible is all sufficient. And when we say sufficient, we mean,

01:22:49.780 um, exhaustive and exclusive, um, for every single thing under the sun, then I would like to know,

01:22:57.100 like, I just, I haven't found that chapter and verse. And so could you, could you point it out

01:23:00.920 to me. And basically, this was the answer that I got. Uniformly, from every theonomist I talked to,

01:23:05.860 they said, well, there's four mechanisms, things that are explicit in Scripture. One,

01:23:12.100 you can't be an illegal immigrant. The sojourner, the stranger, the alien, these aren't people who 1.00

01:23:17.080 climbed over a wall. They still came legally. So one, only legal immigrants. So you have to go

01:23:23.680 through the legal avenues. Number two, well, we would want America to be a Christian nation, 0.88

01:23:29.220 and so we would only take Christians. 1.00

01:23:30.540 There needs to be a public profession

01:23:31.980 of distinctly Christian faith.

01:23:33.920 So Christian, you come legally. 0.91

01:23:36.120 Number three, getting rid of the welfare state.

01:23:38.740 And so you're not coming for free money.

01:23:42.200 You're gonna come and you have to adopt

01:23:44.280 the Protestant work ethic. 0.99

01:23:45.260 You're gonna have to work. 0.97

01:23:46.240 You're gonna have to pay your own way.

01:23:47.740 It's not gonna come at the expense

01:23:49.040 of the citizens, taxpayers.

01:23:51.280 And then number four,

01:23:52.620 you also have to be a law-abiding citizen.

01:23:55.020 So come in legally, but then also obey the law

01:23:57.280 and uh otherwise you're you're gone um so you're gonna so uh you need to be a christian you need

01:24:02.800 to come legally you need to obey the law while you're here and you need to work and and i thought

01:24:06.800 about that and it took me about and i'm not the sharpest tool in the shed so this is saying

01:24:10.920 something it took me about um 15 seconds to think okay well wait a second um this isn't even like

01:24:18.280 some some far-fetched hypothetical i'm what i'm about to uh use as as an example um is something

01:24:24.280 that has literally already happened uh what if america is a christian nation and two-thirds of

01:24:29.320 the world is not so like what if we achieve it what if christian nationalism or whatever you

01:24:34.300 want to call the new the new christian right whatever what if it works what if we win by

01:24:37.760 the grace of god and we win in our lifetimes and america is a christian nation um but most of europe 0.85

01:24:43.780 still sucks and and even that looks like like heaven by comparison to the third world um and 0.95

01:24:52.580 all these third worlders they know that if they come to america they're not going to get free 0.98

01:24:57.860 money they know they're going to have to obey the rules and not break any laws they know they're 0.99

01:25:02.300 going to have to uh speak english learn the language um they know that they have to make

01:25:06.840 a public profession of faith right when they're trying to immigrate they're going to be tested

01:25:11.520 you know they're going to have to memorize an icene creed or whatever i don't know whatever it

01:25:14.500 is and they're going to have to profess faith in the lord jesus christ and um and they're going to

01:25:18.420 have to come through legal avenues um what that assumes that theonomic position it assumes that

01:25:24.740 the only motivation for people to come to our country is free money what it neglects to account

01:25:29.780 for is that there are a ton of other incentives for people to want to come to the united states

01:25:34.420 especially if it's a christian nation already there's there's enough but if you're saying

01:25:38.220 america as it is now but even better it's even more god glorifying christ exalting um so so then

01:25:44.480 what are some of the things that would come with that well you don't get free money anymore but

01:25:48.020 you know what you do get um you don't you don't get uh your country that's torn by war you don't

01:25:53.080 get drug cartels you don't get crime you don't like so so i don't get free cash but you're telling

01:25:58.220 me i get economic opportunity uh i'm not stricken by poverty and uh and my kids won't get raped

01:26:04.600 right um you know how many people that'll appeal to approximately i don't know maybe four to six

01:26:11.480 billion so what do you do if four to six billion people who aren't even necessarily regenerate

01:26:17.660 but we don't have election goggles. We can't discern that. They make an external, outward,

01:26:23.080 public profession of faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and they say, we'll come through the

01:26:27.560 legal avenues. And I asked the theonomists this verbatim, like explicitly, I asked them,

01:26:33.940 is there any theonomic mechanism for telling those who say they're Christians, so they do make that

01:26:40.760 public profession of faith, they say they'll work hard, they're not asking for free money,

01:26:44.360 they they want to come through a legal avenue and they want to be law-abiding

01:26:47.620 citizens is there any mechanism to still say no and the theonomist answer was uniformly no you

01:26:55.060 have to take them because there's not a bible verse that um that allows a nation to um to

01:27:01.740 what they would consider arbitrarily put a cap on the number of immigrants and so theoretically

01:27:08.460 and it's not that far-fetched theoretically it is entirely possible especially if you're

01:27:13.240 post-millennial you think that the post-millennial doesn't believe all the nations become christian

01:27:17.180 at the same time so it's it's entirely possible that america becomes christian a thousand years 0.68

01:27:22.640 before two-thirds of the world and all of a sudden you've got a billion indians um saying that they

01:27:29.600 believe in jesus simply because their their country is you know they're using cow dung instead of cow 0.99

01:27:36.580 and they want to come here and uh and you can't tell them no and i thought ah well i think i think

01:27:44.140 you can i think you can just say that's too many and well how did how do you decide that what

01:27:48.160 chapter and verse well i decided it in the light of nature i decided it um because america is

01:27:53.160 currently um a country of a population of 330 you know to 350 million people and and a a nation

01:28:00.800 that size cannot take in one calendar year three times its total population in immigrants

01:28:09.740 all at the same time because it will collapse so the strict theonomist would have to give himself 0.84

01:28:16.920 over to the destruction of his own country so to answer the question my answer to the question

01:28:20.640 would be you ask for is there any example of something that you know that you don't track back

01:28:25.160 explicitly or directly to scripture that's political. And I say, yeah, immigration is a

01:28:30.660 great example. Thoughts? And that's why I referred to the NGOs. The question is, do the English

01:28:37.600 people have a right, as the English people, to preserve the English integrity of the land that

01:28:42.660 they inherited from their fathers? Is that a legitimate thing that a people, which is basically

01:28:47.920 a derivative of a family, can say about themselves that we want to maintain the Englishness of our

01:28:54.980 family is that a legitimate claim do they have the right to say that and i say yes they do and so

01:28:59.640 therefore but but the theonomist there's no there's no mechanism within scriptural deduction

01:29:04.520 that allows them this claim for their country and i would say at the same time that the american

01:29:10.040 people are a people that we have a history and that we have the right as a people to maintain

01:29:15.860 the integrity of the thing that has been handed to us by our forefathers that is a legitimate claim

01:29:22.280 And I don't think I need to have a chapter and verse to deny the NGOs the right to do this, but just the fact that this is an extension of my duty and obligation to honor my ancestors and act as a catalyst between those ancestors and my descendants to maintain the integrity of the nation that I have been handed.

01:29:44.240 that is a good thing and i think that is a natural um ordered love situation and it doesn't need to

01:29:50.320 be you know um deduced from from scriptural exegesis andrew any thoughts yeah i mean like

01:29:59.580 it's it's a similar it's a similar circumstance like like we were talking about with with covid

01:30:05.720 right where they like if you have um just bare minimum right the only thing that we we can use

01:30:16.540 to address what the state is doing to us during that situation is is the bible well then then

01:30:24.380 you're just left with romans 13 and that's all you got right it's it's the it's the same dynamic

01:30:29.780 right where no we we have other authorities where the bible is not is silent on the particulars

01:30:35.540 that we can draw upon right uh the bible is authoritative over those those lesser authorities

01:30:42.000 but they still are authoritative and i mean and like instinctively people like this is what your

01:30:49.780 question is jewel is is one out of instinct right that you like you know something smells funny like

01:30:54.820 this is not right that we could just import the you know a third of the population of india into

01:31:01.320 america and say cool that's great uh we don't have any laws against they all right even within

01:31:07.360 that that scenario like they all profess christ and they're not getting welfare so i guess it's

01:31:11.660 it's okay right no no it's it's it's not and and everyone knows that it's not they might not be

01:31:18.900 able to articulate exactly why but they know there's something wrong with that and to say

01:31:24.760 that well the bible is is totally sufficient for all of these questions is to say that you you

01:31:29.920 can't object to something that's totally wrong. Like if the, if the state said, okay, well now

01:31:34.560 they need to like be part of your family. Right. Like if that, if that's the scenario, right. You

01:31:38.900 they're, they're mandating foreign adoptions into your family. Like you're going to take two kids 1.00

01:31:43.160 from Senegal into your family and they're going to be, you have to raise them as your children. 0.98

01:31:47.000 Right. That would be monstrous, but there's, there's not a Bible verse that says they can't 1.00

01:31:52.940 do that. Right. Romans 13. Right. You have to submit to the authorities. Right. Well, we would,

01:31:59.200 We would have all sorts of arguments why that's wrong, why you can't do that.

01:32:03.800 And so all of these questions are such that everyone knows the answer to them.

01:32:11.440 But when we adopt this ideology where it's a regulative principle of political action, where we have to have a Bible verse giving us permission to do X, Y, or Z, then it actually restricts evangelicals, evangelical Christians from acting on their correct political instincts.

01:32:32.080 I mean you saw this all the time with Trump too, with Christians supporting Trump. Instinctively, they knew this is right. He's not a good guy or whatever, but his policies are good for our country, are good for our people, and we want to pursue that over and against any objections contrary from evangelical leaders. 0.62

01:32:54.340 Right. That that's the instinct that I think we have to tap into, that Christians have to the few leaders that we do have that are going to tell the truth about these things. 0.58

01:33:06.320 We're not going to play this little shell game of of proof texts anymore. 0.88

01:33:12.140 Right. It has to stop. Right. We have to be able to say, yes, we 100 percent believe that the Bible is totally authoritative over everything.

01:33:21.260 but it doesn't speak to every particular situation and we must use wisdom we must use

01:33:28.160 tradition we must use the things that have been handed to us in order to act politically well said

01:33:35.080 uh nathan scroll up real quick because there's one more question that i i have a short answer

01:33:39.640 to and it's gonna hurt but it needs to be said keep going up up up up up up maybe not on the

01:33:45.860 questions list yeah on the just on the comments yep um go up slow down slow down here we go there

01:33:51.880 we go uh this is from knocked loose he said um are these people talking about uh isker and uh cj

01:33:58.120 me uh michael and west um are these people seriously arguing that theonomy leads to

01:34:04.060 propositional nationhood uh this this is going to hurt but uh yes yes that's exactly what i'm saying

01:34:09.700 what i'm saying is that i don't think that it inherently has to but for whatever reason in

01:34:17.680 the providence of god it has i won't say that for every theonomist because i don't even personally

01:34:23.240 know every theonomist but i think it's a fair statement for me to say that many if not most

01:34:30.200 and i would lean towards most modern theonomists today their conception of theonomy is perfectly

01:34:39.160 compatible and pretty much um a synonym with propositional nationhood and then uh real quick

01:34:47.640 one more truttle go up to truttle it's the uh grover um there it is uh truttle said i regret

01:34:54.340 to inform you that theonomists today are libertarians and not like rush duny well said

01:35:00.380 first duny was definitely against immigration he thought very highly of the american stocks and

01:35:05.020 said we cannot allow and that that was the you know i'm saying this to you guys because i love

01:35:10.340 you knock loose i love you i know it's hard to hear it hurt my heart as well it hit me deep in

01:35:15.760 the chest it when i when i was you know sitting you know and reading and and came to that

01:35:22.640 realization that um the average modern theonomist today is a libertarian propositional nationhood

01:35:32.060 defending globalist uh it broke my heart it really did um but it's the cold hard truth

01:35:40.080 and i'm going to give you the cold hard truth um and trottle is absolutely right i still love

01:35:45.920 rush journey um but the apples have fallen very far from the tree and we have to just come to

01:35:51.700 terms with that um when when we talk about theonomist today when you listen or read i'll

01:35:58.220 just say it. Um, if you're watching Andrew Sandlin and then you pick up, you know, uh, biblical,

01:36:06.120 you know, biblical law institutes, uh, by rush duty, and you can't discern a difference between

01:36:11.360 the two, then, um, you're, you're in trouble. Uh, those two things are not, not the same.

01:36:18.420 Um, this is the announcement that I wanted to give real quick. Um, so it's good. Um, I decided,

01:36:23.480 you know, we're live right now. Everybody's watching. So, but I'll put you on the spot.

01:36:26.400 so i i have decided unless you have a strong objection um it is you know it's already geared

01:36:32.500 up and ready to go um to take our series our nine-part series that we did on israel and just

01:36:38.620 go ahead and make that bad boy live because i feel like all let's go all the pushback like at

01:36:44.600 this point it's like i was trying to spare you and i a little bit of the controversy thinking

01:36:49.560 you know if i put it behind the paywall then maybe we'll get a little less grief

01:36:52.460 i don't feel like i got any less grief do you i think we've probably gotten more grief uh yeah

01:36:59.740 i feel like not everybody can yeah i feel at this point at this point i feel like what it'll do this

01:37:06.580 is my prediction um some people clip it up and and you know and the usual suspects will give us

01:37:12.680 a hard time however um i think that like a lot of people have already levied their accusations

01:37:18.480 and i think a full robust nine-part series on your book that's going to be coming out

01:37:24.020 um i i think if anything it'll actually um it'll actually serve as a defense i don't i don't think

01:37:30.460 it'll get us in more trouble i think it'll actually provide the the further clarifications

01:37:34.580 for the things that people have you know slandered us with that it'll actually they'll be like you

01:37:40.340 know it'll be harder for them to defend their slander what do you think yeah i think so i mean

01:37:46.480 looking back on it it's like we just you know we just talked about um the bible and the new

01:37:53.260 testament and what the new testament says about the difference between the church and israel

01:37:58.920 right like it wasn't right it wasn't anything too crazy you know i mean most of the i mean

01:38:05.220 maybe you got more hate than i did uh but a lot i definitely got more hate than you did for sure

01:38:11.920 you always do uh but so i mean i got way more hate for people like why did they say anything

01:38:17.160 about this or that like people from like you know further to the right right and things like that

01:38:22.320 you know uh online like why didn't you talk about this you know why don't you talk about the uss

01:38:28.080 liberty or whatever or yeah name name the thing and it's like because we wanted to talk about the

01:38:34.500 bible and like that's the need of the hour is to understand what the new testament says

01:38:38.500 on the relationship between christianity and judaism and jews and so forth so it's like

01:38:46.000 yeah i i don't know man like uh people can watch it i and i hope they do because i hope they did

01:38:53.080 good stuff there yeah i think it was super tame very hinged like very i mean maybe if for you

01:39:03.020 know from time to time a few synagogue of satan kind of you know things might have just you know

01:39:07.120 slipped off the tongue you know but other than that i think it was a let me be clear 0.97

01:39:11.240 you know like i mean yeah we like we think judaism is a demonic false religion but most of it really 0.93

01:39:18.840 was i think exegetical and just all right here's here's galatians here's ephesians here's acts 0.94

01:39:24.280 here's hebrews here you know here's romans 11 you know that was the big one and so i i think it'll

01:39:29.220 be really helpful for people so all right there you have it we've gotten andrew's uh official

01:39:33.220 permission. So we're good to go. So that starts tonight, ladies and gentlemen. So tonight at 8pm

01:39:38.080 Central, that's our Friday special for the next nine weeks. It'll be live on X. It'll be live on

01:39:44.040 YouTube. It'll be on rightresponseministries.com, our website. It'll be on our app. It'll be on

01:39:48.500 your favorite listening platform, Apple, Spotify, XYZ. So on all the things, Fridays at 8pm Central

01:39:55.800 time for the next nine weeks, because it's a nine part series, you'll have the series on all things

01:40:03.080 Israel and Judaism and the Jews and all that kind of stuff and how Christians should be thinking

01:40:08.980 about this biblically and properly and politically today. That'll be for the next nine weeks. So

01:40:14.680 that's Q1 Friday special. That's going to get us through January, February, and a little bit into

01:40:19.660 March. And then Q2, starting the first Friday of April, you're going to have a 10-part series on

01:40:25.900 Fridays, one per week on Fridays for 10 weeks at 8 p.m. Central Time of a 10 part series on

01:40:33.300 Christian nationalism with myself and Dr. Stephen Wolf. But here's the deal. If you don't want to

01:40:38.420 wait for the slow drip, you want to get the whole series with me and Iska right now and be able to

01:40:42.880 binge watch all nine episodes completely ad free. And you certainly don't want to wait a whole

01:40:48.020 quarter all the way till April for a one per week episode to drop with me and Stephen Wolf

01:40:53.920 on all things Christian Nationalism, I have very good news for you. You can get the entire

01:40:58.740 nine-part series with Isker and the entire 10-part series with me and Dr. Wolf on Christian

01:41:05.060 Nationalism. Both of those series, a total of 19 episodes, all ad-free, is actually available

01:41:10.760 in total today, but exclusively for our Patreon members. At the lowest tier,

01:41:17.080 five bucks a month, costs you a cup of coffee. You can binge it in a month and cancel your

01:41:21.860 subscription if you have to. Out of the goodness of your heart, I ask you not to, but you could

01:41:25.980 theoretically cancel your subscription. All you have to do is go on over to patreon.com

01:41:32.260 forward slash right response ministries. Again, one more time, that's patreon.com

01:41:38.120 forward slash right response ministries. All right, let me turn it back to Andrew and CJ.

01:41:43.480 Any final thoughts for today? Guys, thank you so much for coming on. Anything you want to leave us

01:41:47.320 with how can people follow you at least give us that for sure hey you can follow me on twitter

01:41:52.580 um at contra mordor and um you know you can you can subscribe to our podcast contra mundum

01:41:59.560 um and it's on youtube and you know all the major podcatchers and we got some we got some cool stuff

01:42:04.880 lined up from 2025 we don't have a we don't have a nine-part series on the relationship between

01:42:09.560 israel and christianity but we do have some cool stuff coming up too so check us out on youtube

01:42:14.600 and twitter and i think andrew are you are you on twitter i am i am at boniface option and uh you

01:42:21.860 can find me there oh snap docs we got him it's me the whole time we got him yeah yeah so uh yeah

01:42:32.420 find me there and and on the podcast with cj and yeah we've got we've got cool we might do some

01:42:37.700 series in 2025 we've got a series just not that one well yeah yeah just not that one not that and

01:42:44.000 speaking of series i i've already told cj this and andrew i thought i got to i had the distinct

01:42:48.920 pleasure of speaking to both of you on the phone in the last couple days but um we want to have

01:42:53.360 uh you guys come out both of you so i've done something now twice with andrew but i'd love to

01:42:58.540 do it with you as well cj and so um if we can uh we would like to get you guys to fly out and have

01:43:04.620 you in person the studio and do some kind of multiple part series uh we've got you know q1

01:43:09.660 and q2 already ramped up and ready to go um and you know but we've got two more quarters in the

01:43:15.140 year and i already know what it should be yeah so something you know something that any anywhere

01:43:21.080 between i would say anywhere between eight and 12 episodes um but i would love to do something like

01:43:26.540 that and then i'll plug this for andrew but um definitely check out his books he's got two books

01:43:32.480 already published and a third that's on the way but um you've got christian nationalism with you

01:43:36.740 and Torba and then you also have your most recent book that uh was I mean didn't you sell like 20,000

01:43:43.460 copies I mean it was it did well right yeah it's done really well I think it's it's just it's just

01:43:49.080 around there uh total praise god I don't yeah I don't know the exact number uh what's it called

01:43:54.600 and where can people get it the Boniface option and Amazon is the best place to get that uh so

01:44:01.360 So yeah, you'll want to check that out too.

01:44:03.940 Awesome.

01:44:04.720 And then of course, CJ, last thing is that CJ and Andrew will be joining Michael and

01:44:10.080 Wes and I at our conference, April 3rd, 4th, and 5th.

01:44:14.060 That's a Thursday, Friday, Saturday coming up in less than three months at this point.

01:44:18.300 So April 3rd, 4th, and 5th, the title of the conference is Christ is King, subtitle

01:44:22.860 How to Defeat Trash World.

01:44:24.780 And we used Trash World, which is kind of a term that Andrew coined, similar to Clown

01:44:30.160 world and other things that were already kind of in the mix. But I loved Boniface Options so much

01:44:36.320 that I used a little bit of its jargon that Andrew provided for us. And so Andrew's going to be doing

01:44:42.600 one of the main sessions. Both Andrew and CJ are going to be on a panel with us, and that's going

01:44:46.740 to be a great time. We hope that you guys can come out and make that. Go to RightResponse

01:44:50.880 Conference, not ministries, but RightResponseConference.com if you want to register for

01:44:55.520 the conference. I think that's about it. Michael and Wes, you guys have anything you want to say?

01:44:59.340 it. Yep. Okay. Uh, one last time, subscribe to, uh, our, our channel on YouTube and click the

01:45:05.620 bell. If you want to be notified with all of our content that we put out on, uh, not just a weekly,

01:45:10.240 but almost daily basis. And then also go ahead and follow us on X at right response, M at right

01:45:17.460 response, M, uh, Andrew and CJ. Thanks again so much for coming on the show. Appreciate it.

01:45:23.340 Yeah. Thank you so much for having us. All right. See you soon.

01:45:29.340 Thank you.

The NXR Podcast - January 10, 2025

THE LIVESTREAM - Is Scripture Sufficient For Politics？ With C.Jay Engel and Andrew Isker

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