The NXR Podcast - THE LIVESTREAM - Make Seminaries Great Again

00:00:00.000 Christianity has been greatly served by the scholars, theologians, and pastors that were

00:00:08.520 equipped for defending the faith through study at institutions such as Cambridge, Yale, and

00:00:15.220 Princeton. Pastors and scholars like Jonathan Edwards, B.B. Warfield, and R.L. Dabney were

00:00:21.640 products of rigorous academic instruction in the Western tradition, and their influence

00:00:27.880 continues to this day. But as of late, notable output of even reformed seminaries seems to be

00:00:36.260 nothing more than race hustlers, social justice warriors, functional Anabaptists, and pietists 0.92

00:00:43.180 that would make themselves unrecognizable to their forefathers. So where did things go wrong, 0.93

00:00:49.660 and what can we do today to fix our seminaries?

00:00:57.880 welcome back and good afternoon gentlemen that's right the gang's all here the gang's all here

00:01:07.600 finally yeah we had four weeks where it was me and michael twice it was me and wesley twice

00:01:11.720 and now we're guest appearance by eric khan yeah yeah last michael ground level europe are they

00:01:16.620 gonna make it how are things looking over there so michael was just in europe i was in europe for

00:01:19.840 how long two weeks not quite two weeks yeah 10 days yep so visited friends in england and in

00:01:24.980 norway and i would say where we were in norway they are more committed to actually fighting the

00:01:29.060 fight good and in england the issues that we believe very passionately but i said what's what's

00:01:33.780 the view of abortion here he said oh we just he was a christian he didn't but he said we as a

00:01:37.500 country we just laugh at the backwards americans who are still arguing over things like abortion

00:01:41.520 and kind of a given and given up on the issue there in the church even so as in it's not even 0.69

00:01:46.640 a fight yeah someone said that recently they were traveling and uh i think it was terrible to agree

00:01:51.980 with him but roger and he said a christian in a european country they're like you are so lucky

00:01:56.440 that this is a fight that's even on the table right it's not even on the table for us and

00:01:59.560 hasn't been for decades you guys are lucky that it's a real conversation like will this be allowed

00:02:03.620 or not so well great we got a great topic today he's saying he's saying we're lucky and it's not

00:02:10.280 on the table for us like isn't like we're lucky to have that option this is a battlefield for real

00:02:15.400 politicians i know he's in hungary but like isn't he an american well he left i just we don't go

00:02:23.620 there so sad it's sad when that guy you really don't like you're green with him conservatives

00:02:29.120 right lord help us lord help us all right well i was about to say and speaking of conservatives

00:02:33.760 uh we've had this episode actually planned for a while finally getting around to it

00:02:37.400 but um so the seminary uh the root word actually is seminarium it comes from latin um there's

00:02:43.660 another prefix root word in there that I won't say on air, but it means seedbed. So, a seminary

00:02:48.440 in classical terms has meant a seedbed, and it's intended to be a place where wisdom and knowledge

00:02:53.020 they're deposited in men aspiring to the clergy, and then later on in life, those crops that have

00:02:58.420 been planted, those seeds that have been planted, they grow up and they bear fruit. They bear fruit

00:03:02.560 in the lives of the clergy, of course, but also the individuals that they minister to, that it's

00:03:06.720 intended to be this place that cultivates men, that imbues them with knowledge, and then later

00:03:11.840 on in life that goes on to bear much fruit for the kingdom. I was reading, doing some preparation

00:03:16.160 for this episode, and one guy said this. He said, the Reformation, it was birthed in an academic

00:03:20.400 setting. The base of the Reformation was the university. Martin Luther, Philip Melanchthon,

00:03:25.280 Ulrich Zwingli, and John Calvin formed and clarified their doctrine in the give and take

00:03:30.760 of academic debate. So, as Protestants, as evangelicals, the seminary and academia have

00:03:37.160 always been very important. We've needed these men that have dedicated their lives, brilliant men,

00:03:42.460 to studying the languages, studying theology, working out systematic, coherent systems.

00:03:47.760 And so from the outset, we have a lot to thank them for. But the purpose of a system is what it

00:03:53.320 does. Aaron McIntyre uses that term a lot, and I think it's a good one. So we can say in today,

00:03:58.020 in our current time, well, our seminaries are intended to continue that great tradition,

00:04:01.680 to educate men, to prepare them for the ministry, to take those that are aspiring to the clergy

00:04:06.540 and get them ready to go out and do good work.

00:04:09.340 We can say that, but what is actually happening?

00:04:12.720 When we look at the notable output, is that what's going on?

00:04:16.260 That soldiers are going to the front line for King Jesus?

00:04:18.980 I was just going to say the purpose of the system is not the title that you give it.

00:04:23.140 Exactly.

00:04:23.500 You can write sugar on a label and put it on the flour jar, but it's still flour.

00:04:31.940 Right.

00:04:32.000 So what you call something, what you say about something is not nearly as integral to what it is as much as what it does.

00:04:41.920 What does it actually do?

00:04:43.180 So the public school system, we would say, well, it's not for education.

00:04:46.900 It's for producing Democrat voters and turning children against their parents.

00:04:51.120 But it says school on the door. 0.76

00:04:52.140 It's for the purpose of the public school district is to trans kids, put out Democrat voters, and make sure that children go up to hate their parents. 0.75

00:04:59.980 That's what it does. 0.79

00:05:01.180 That is the system.

00:05:02.000 it's not about education exactly same with seminaries we i think it's time if we can say

00:05:06.760 those things about the public school system right i think not maybe in the same way in some ways

00:05:12.920 it's maybe not so severe in other ways i think it might even be more pernicious and sinister

00:05:16.620 but we need to start talking about what is if we're honest in terms of what it does what is

00:05:22.600 the purpose of seminaries that's actually uh nate if you have that first clip i'm going to play the

00:05:26.720 clip, and then I'll give you the background for it. VP Kamala Harris has been a leader on so many

00:05:32.420 issues that matter to our communities. From advancing the child tax credit, which reduced

00:05:37.340 child poverty by 50% in 2021, something we want to continue to work on together to ensure that

00:05:44.960 families have access to affordable health care, like low prescription drug prices, contraception,

00:05:51.420 and IVF, issues that evangelicals overwhelmingly support. She has also advanced a biblical view

00:06:00.420 of creation care and works to find solutions to the climate crisis, and has been an advocate

00:06:05.620 for racial justice, which we all know is rooted in a vision of justice scriptures, which is laid

00:06:11.980 out from Genesis to Revelation. All people are created in the image of God, and Vice President

00:06:18.320 And Harris has worked hard to ensure that we achieve policy solutions that reflect these goals.

00:06:24.940 All right.

00:06:25.760 Just before you do this, Wes, I want to just make sure that we don't unintentionally malign our tech guy, Nate.

00:06:32.220 The little pop-up box on the window, that was part of the video.

00:06:35.240 That was not Nate.

00:06:36.040 Nathan would never, ever be such a normie as to let that happen.

00:06:41.380 To have a pop-up.

00:06:42.440 All right.

00:06:43.220 So what you just heard was a woman named Ekomeni Yuan.

00:06:46.040 was leading a zoom call evangelicals for harris a roundtable gathering years and years ago when i

00:06:54.820 saw this video west i know you're joking but seriously when you sent this in our thread as

00:06:59.120 we were preparing for today i thought like i don't know if it's super relevant to show like a video

00:07:03.660 that's probably from like 2012 or no i was i was i got on god's honest truth i thought this has to

00:07:10.400 be from 2012 to 2015. And then you're like, no, my dear brother in Christ, that was from two weeks

00:07:16.300 ago. That was two weeks ago. So, this is Ekomeni. She's a leader. She wrote a book. I think it's

00:07:21.460 called Truth Talks. She also hosts a podcast, which I went through. I scrolled some of the

00:07:26.680 podcast titles. One of them was The Sacred Act of Self-Help or Sacred Act of Self-Care. So,

00:07:32.480 now, why does that matter? Well, this woman graduated less than a decade ago from Westminster

00:07:37.500 theological seminary not west east the seminary philadelphia the seminary founded by the the lion

00:07:46.860 in the faith j gresham machen who took a stand against liberalism where cornelius van till

00:07:52.860 lectured less than she graduated hold up hold up she graduated in homemaking what like what

00:08:00.560 i don't understand my brother in christ i regret to inform you what was homemaking what was her

00:08:04.900 degree i don't understand see this is i'll just be honest i'll just part of the part of the problem

00:08:10.160 is not like hey here's somebody who graduated from a supposedly very conservative seminary and

00:08:14.600 look at you know look at how far off the rails now they're supporting evangelicals for harris

00:08:18.780 um and ivf they just kills and slaughters you know hundreds and thousands of children

00:08:23.700 freezes them on ice and most of them get discarded um it's not just that it's also um like let's 0.76

00:08:29.280 let's just i'll say it um what what is what is a woman doing yeah in seminary yep i what is a

00:08:37.620 woman doing in seminary i don't understand like i said it tongue-in-cheek the home thing but

00:08:43.700 like but but seriously and even that would frustrate me because why would you go into

00:08:48.620 debt for your future husband to study home ec in a college when you could study that with your

00:08:53.520 mother by being her daughter in a home so anyways there's something i just i'm gonna just 1.00

00:08:59.080 pull back a tiny bit there because there's a lot of women who are not getting that right that's 0.97

00:09:03.760 true there might need to be a generation of real intentional training yeah but not at a four-year 1.00

00:09:09.020 school i agree not at a four-year school with 150 000 of debt you know or 80 000 of debt that

00:09:14.280 eventually you know you're you're basically crossing your fingers and hoping that some

00:09:17.640 democrat president will make all the conservatives pay for it with their tax dollars that's not how

00:09:21.760 you do it and for the record i like i'm not against um women going to school for anything

00:09:28.360 higher education for anything. I do think that there may be some cases where a young woman

00:09:33.200 goes to school and studies, you know, X, Y, Z, because for a time as she's waiting to get married,

00:09:39.660 because here's the reality, we are in such disrepair that the average 18-year-old woman

00:09:45.040 who is conservative, loves the Lord, was raised right by her parents and does want to be a wife

00:09:49.720 and a mom. A lot of times there's not that, you know, that 20-year-old man who is standing right

00:09:56.240 there who loves the Lord Jesus Christ and is working hard and is ready to sweep her off her

00:10:00.260 feet. Like, so she's like, what do I, what do I do? And I think there's a lot of options. And just

00:10:04.960 for the record, going to school, I'm not totally against it, but I will certainly say that it is

00:10:10.460 lower on my list. Like if you're thinking, what can I do? Because what you're thinking is

00:10:14.220 eventually the end goal, if God would be so kind, all right, we can't, we can't make it happen. God

00:10:19.540 is sovereign and not every woman's going to get married. Sadly, that's just the reality. But 0.92

00:10:23.800 ordinarily they will ordinarily they will and if that's the goal is being a wife and a mother

00:10:28.540 then racking up debt for your future husband is probably not the best strategy so there may be

00:10:35.480 some things to go to school for and in those cases you're going to a school that's affordable

00:10:39.920 and not racking up debt but in most cases there are certain things that you can be doing as you're

00:10:45.380 waiting on on marriage and family that where you're making money and where your parents are

00:10:51.160 helping you towards this and helping you towards that but here all that being said that's that's

00:10:54.960 those are my disclaimers but all that out of the way one school you definitely don't need to be

00:11:00.140 going to is seminary which is supposed to train pastors yep which you can't be yep the bible 0.99

00:11:06.360 literally tells you you can't be one so so we're gonna coax in young women to rack up debt to pay 1.00

00:11:13.380 for our professors to teach them to do something that they're not supposed to do i want to come 0.54

00:11:18.500 back to the the some of the output of the seminary because it's like oh you got one clip that was bad 0.78

00:11:22.820 sure but is that systemic we'll get back to that but on that point do you know why they admit women

00:11:26.720 the way a lot of these seminaries and to be fair that doesn't really help much they technically

00:11:31.160 are not typically allowed in mdiv programs which are intended for pastoral ministry they would do

00:11:35.140 something similar to an ma or a master's in theological arts but you know the reason that

00:11:39.740 most of these seminaries have accepted women to pay their salaries title nine which is a federal

00:11:45.160 title, which requires under the Civil Rights Act that schools that can receive federal funding

00:11:49.880 and loans, they cannot discriminate on the basis of sex. So, if a school like, say, Greenville

00:11:55.260 Presbyterian Seminary wanted to access for their students, for their faculty, for themselves,

00:12:00.740 federal dollars, what they would have to do is have to have the program open and not discriminate

00:12:05.700 on the basis of any of those things. And well, does Jesus say, the love of money is the root

00:12:10.120 of all kinds of evil. So, these men know, yeah, a woman can't be a pastor. Yeah, a woman getting 0.95

00:12:14.600 her Master's of Arts in Biblical Counseling. 1.00

00:12:16.980 Eh, it's not ideal.

00:12:17.740 They would know that if they've read Calvin and any of those guys.

00:12:21.240 But here's the allure.

00:12:22.680 Nice $200,000 salary to write academic papers and lecture a couple times a year.

00:12:27.980 And so, a big driving force of this, I would argue, is money.

00:12:32.100 Yes, there's some of the theology. 0.99

00:12:33.420 Well, an unordained woman can do anything a man can do, and some of these men won't 0.60

00:12:36.880 be ordained.

00:12:37.740 But really, underneath it, I think a lot of it is Title IX, eligibility for federal funding,

00:12:42.380 and these seminaries, daddy government came by with a big check in hand, ready to write it out,

00:12:47.480 and they said, yes, please. We'll be happy to open up our own little program and integrate

00:12:51.360 these classes and bring women onto campus for those sweet federal dollars. Well, it's interesting

00:12:56.260 because since we're going down this path right now, some of the stuff that I looked at was the

00:13:01.820 fact that especially evangelical seminaries are having a really difficult time getting enrollment,

00:13:07.360 getting numbers, maintaining their numbers.

00:13:10.280 For instance, in Gordon Theological Seminary...

00:13:13.360 Gordon Conwell?

00:13:14.000 Gordon Conwell.

00:13:14.640 Yep, Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary

00:13:16.560 recently announced that they're going to have to sell

00:13:20.100 most of their 102-acre campus

00:13:23.020 in order to stay financially viable.

00:13:28.000 And you think 15, 20, 30 years ago,

00:13:30.100 that never would have been.

00:13:31.280 Tell me Meredith Klein's legacy,

00:13:32.820 because he lectured at Gordon Conwell,

00:13:34.060 didn't save the institution.

00:13:35.720 I'm shocked.

00:13:36.400 So Fuller, 2018, it closed three of its satellite campuses, and it's selling property in Pasadena, California.

00:13:44.660 And its financial future is totally in jeopardy.

00:13:49.120 So one of the things that seminaries have been doing, because Title IX is there, they have been offering more, shall we say, creative degree tracks.

00:14:01.140 Okay, so here's a list of some of the degree tracks that are available at seminaries now, evangelical seminaries.

00:14:05.380 We have aging and spirituality, a four-year degree.

00:14:09.080 Well, no, not a four-year, two-year, an MA at Asbury Theological Seminary.

00:14:12.980 And what is it?

00:14:13.920 Aging and spirituality.

00:14:15.720 A master's in aging, like getting older.

00:14:18.380 Yeah, so how to do pastoral care towards those who are aging.

00:14:24.360 Okay, you've got apologetics and cosmogony.

00:14:28.220 That's Regent University, School of Divinity.

00:14:31.340 Biblical exegesis and linguistics at Dallas.

00:14:34.120 that's not that that bad black church studies at ashland theological seminary cultural engagement

00:14:40.240 whole master's degree in cultural engagement from denver seminary okay it just goes on and on

00:14:46.040 islamic studies near eastern archaeology um i that's that's more academic and and one of the

00:14:51.840 things that we could talk about is whether some of the academic like an archaeology degree does

00:14:56.600 the seminary need to be offering yeah you know archaeology non-profit leadership for social

00:15:01.900 justice at grand rapids theological seminary i have friends who went to that seminary that's a

00:15:06.240 big dutch reformed area grand rapids yep some of the guys like voss and bob inc and others what

00:15:10.440 was it non-profit leadership for social justice an ma profit leadership okay and so um you should

00:15:18.380 go to that joel urban ministry urban ministry again grand kenyan theological seminary the point

00:15:23.940 is, as the seminaries have achieved this sort of financial bubble over maybe the 90s, 2000s,

00:15:35.800 Title IX money came in, in order for them to sustain the numbers, now that I would argue,

00:15:41.340 some people are seeing the fruit of their ministry, which we're going to get to, and

00:15:44.400 are like, I'm not going to seminary. I'm not sending my sons to that seminary. So they've

00:15:47.780 had to introduce this sort of degree track a lot of them in order to enter to entice um new students

00:15:55.120 and a lot of those new students this is just kind of speculation here i don't have numbers on this

00:16:00.180 but a lot of those new students are going to be women right and it's not an mdv track clip yep

00:16:05.660 let's do that second clip then hold up real quick before we do it i just want to address this one 1.00

00:16:09.900 comment because i think it it it's an opportunity to provide some clarity eyes of laura mars she

00:16:16.280 She said, Mary sat at Jesus' feet learning, and Priscilla helped.

00:16:20.100 I guess she's talking about...

00:16:22.520 Helped the church.

00:16:23.180 Yeah, she was a helper. 1.00

00:16:25.520 Doesn't mean that either of these women are going to be a pastor.

00:16:29.120 So Mary's sitting at the feet of Jesus learning.

00:16:31.300 So the way that I would respond to that is simply by saying that we are not against women learning.

00:16:36.260 So one of the things that Paul explicitly says in 1 Timothy 2, I believe starting in verse 9, it might be verse 11,

00:16:44.560 but he says a woman must learn must learn and then he begins to say in what manner what what 0.91

00:16:51.680 what kind of disposition she should possess as she's learning she must learn in quietness and

00:16:57.840 full submission he's not saying she should learn how to be quiet he's saying she should learn and

00:17:03.300 the implication is all the things that the men are learning but where this is the key he's talking

00:17:09.180 about the context of the local church so so mary sitting at the feet of jesus learning um yeah my

00:17:16.740 daughters uh six and five and three years old are sitting at the feet of jesus in a proverbial and

00:17:25.260 spiritual but biblically true sense every single week on the lord's day uh during during the the

00:17:32.280 gathering of the saints and the ministering of the ordinary means of grace preaching the word

00:17:37.760 praying the word singing the word when these things are happening and seeing the word and

00:17:42.060 the sacrament of the lord's supper and baptism um everyone is sitting at the feet and not just

00:17:46.540 men and women um but but we're one of those churches that uh that is not discriminating

00:17:51.640 against children um the person usually the the feminist savvy person uh about 99.99999 percent

00:18:00.480 of the time if they go to a church it's a liberal church and you know what that church does number

00:18:04.860 one, it probably doesn't have kids, right? Because it's hard to procreate when, you know,

00:18:08.920 when you're gay. And then two, if they do have kids, what do they do for church? They send them 0.95

00:18:14.720 to a separate room. They put them in childcare. Not at Covenant Bible Church. We have both old

00:18:20.300 and young, both male and female. And it's not just this, you know, well, there's, you know,

00:18:25.700 deep theology for the men. And then there's, you know, watered-down theology for the women or deep 0.72

00:18:29.720 theology for the adults. But, you know, the kids are dumb and, you know, we're not going to give 0.99

00:18:33.300 much. No, no, no. Everybody is drinking from the same fount. Everyone is receiving the same 1.00

00:18:40.060 spiritual meal that's being laid before them, seven-course meal, and I'm not talking, not

00:18:44.160 boasting about myself, not talking about just the sermon. I'm talking about the liturgy from start

00:18:48.140 to finish, the pastoral prayers, the scripture readings, the Lord's Supper, the singing,

00:18:53.880 the hymns and the psalms, the whole nine yards. Everyone is eating from the same table. We're

00:19:00.020 We're not like those parents who set up their children for failure, who make two meals for

00:19:06.540 the family because they know the kids might complain.

00:19:08.640 And so the kids get chicken nuggets, mac and cheese, or pizza every single night of the

00:19:13.460 week while the adults eat something else.

00:19:15.080 No, we don't make two meals, two spiritual meals for the adults and the children or for

00:19:19.940 the men and the women on the Lord's Day.

00:19:21.720 We all come together as the family of God, young and old, man and woman, and we sit at

00:19:27.560 the same table, we eat the same meal.

00:19:29.240 and that here's the deal that is what i would liken to the example of mary sitting at the feet

00:19:35.460 of jesus and learning that's where you learn that's what first timothy chapter two is all about

00:19:40.580 paul is talking about the context of the local church he's not talking about seminaries

00:19:44.800 so so we are all for women learning and here's the thing if you actually have qualified men

00:19:50.560 going to seminaries and you have qualified seminaries to train those men then guess who

00:19:55.400 benefits from it everybody including the women because then those men come back to local churches

00:20:00.200 and fill the pulpits and teach the word of god rightly dividing the word of god and the word of

00:20:05.560 truth and and everybody benefits from that the women in our church are learning theology proper 0.86

00:20:10.380 doctrine of god they're learning about um the impassibility of god they're learning about a

00:20:15.380 god without parts and divine simplicity they're learning all these things um because i i don't 0.99

00:20:22.020 treat people like idiots when we preach the Word of God. I preach the Word of God at a high level 0.98

00:20:28.260 knowing that if people have questions, guess what? Women can ask their husbands, which is exactly

00:20:34.120 what Paul says in 1 Corinthians. Oh, that's so chauvinistic. That's just Bible. If any woman

00:20:40.020 has a question, let her ask her husband at home. I don't like the way you interpreted that. I didn't.

00:20:44.880 I quoted it. That's Scripture. And then secondly, if her husband can't answer the question, then

00:20:49.900 guess what then it becomes their question and then they go and seek out pastors and the pastor

00:20:54.800 can't answer the question then i'm going to be seeking out other guys and you know other ministers

00:20:58.600 who are qualified and we're going to so our our church the whole church the children the men the

00:21:04.660 women we are learning sound deep profound doctrine and the idea that uh that somehow you are barring

00:21:12.660 women from learning barring them from sitting at the feet of jesus by not uh church is not providing

00:21:18.780 scholarships for women to go to a four-year degree in seminary, I reject. I reject, ma'am. 0.99

00:21:25.760 Let's play this clip. Yeah, we'll play it, then we'll have some comments.

00:21:29.920 We're here at NSO, and we're going to get to know some of our new students and just hear what

00:21:35.180 they're about, what they're studying, and where they come from. So let's see if we can talk to

00:21:39.700 some friends. How are you guys doing? What are your guys' names? I'm Clara. I'm Sydney. What

00:21:46.520 has been your favorite thing about today so far? Probably breakfast. Meeting new

00:21:53.420 people. Alright my name is Zach Johnson I was actually born when my parents were

00:21:58.160 students here so I am visiting my birthplace into the same apartment that

00:22:01.760 I slept in as a newborn so that's wow. Full circle. What are you studying? I'm studying the MDiv in Christian

00:22:09.560 Ministry. Awesome. I'm here with Holly Ann. What are you studying? I am studying the MA

00:22:15.740 Christian Marital Family and Individual Counseling. Wow, she got it all right, too. 0.96

00:22:20.020 Can you just speak a little bit to why you chose Southeastern? I always kind of knew about their

00:22:23.760 commitment to the Bible and to the Lord, and when I visited, everyone was very genuine.

00:22:28.240 I just thought it would be a great place to study as a Christian, because I want to be a

00:22:31.740 Christian counselor, specifically. Oh, hey. Who are you?

00:22:36.600 I'm Trevor. Hey, Trevor. What are you studying this

00:22:39.860 fall? I am studying for my MDiv and Church Revitalization.

00:22:43.300 One word for NSO. What would you use?

00:22:46.360 I mean, it's been amazing. I don't really have one word for it, but just being able to get to meet people that are walking through similar stages of life as you, it's pretty cool.

00:23:01.120 Where is that from, Wes?

00:23:02.520 This is from a new student orientation that just happened. SBC Underground posted it on x slash Twitter.

00:23:08.780 Just kind of showing what's going on in campus.

00:23:10.420 But which seminary?

00:23:11.640 Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, which is an SBC.

00:23:14.580 You're going to have a flagship seminary for SBC.

00:23:17.920 You're going to have to monologue for a little bit, Wes, because I will get myself in so much trouble if I respond to that.

00:23:26.340 I'll say this.

00:23:27.000 What are your thoughts?

00:23:28.140 I don't have any thoughts.

00:23:28.740 If you can't recognize what's going on in that clip, my brother in Christ, you are in the water, you are swimming in it, and you can't get out of it.

00:23:36.360 Think of the caliber of men.

00:23:38.500 And not just intellectual.

00:23:39.820 like there is intellectual caliber but also of of stature of discipline of gravitas of people

00:23:47.180 like stonewall like just be speaking more broadly than seminaries stonewall jackson and then you

00:23:52.240 look at this robert lee christian preachers like you know charles spurgeon who would literally

00:23:57.760 send men away based off of their physique yeah there's one man and i understand just real quick

00:24:04.460 to play the devil's advocate people say yeah but they didn't have microphones and blah blah blah

00:24:07.820 And so he was talking about barrel-chested men so that they could, you know, they could enunciate and they could project so that their voice would be heard to large crowds, you know, in an organic sense.

00:24:17.680 Uh-huh, yeah.

00:24:18.240 And also Charles Spurgeon has a quote about beards.

00:24:21.820 And he literally, in typical Spurgeon fashion, right, he doesn't say, well, I have an opinion or I think or this is open for, he just, everything is dogma with Spurgeon.

00:24:29.940 And Spurgeon straight up said, to not have a beard is unbiblical.

00:24:33.080 Yep.

00:24:33.480 It's unmanly and unbiblical. 0.95

00:24:35.200 Well, that one is not about your voice.

00:24:36.740 you know that one doesn't have a functional like no charles spurgeon just straight up would judge

00:24:41.420 guys uh i'm going to decide whether or not i'm going to train you to be a preacher based off of

00:24:46.000 your character your godliness your theology your theological aptitude intellectual capacity and

00:24:51.640 also if you look like a dude there was a guy who preached go home in in his lectures to students

00:24:57.680 and he said i had to send him away because for all the gold and tarshish i could not have kept

00:25:01.420 a straight face as he spoke wow literally his voice like you do not have the voice yeah to be

00:25:05.760 a minister and so i don't want to pick on these kids but i mean they're young like these these

00:25:11.200 are what we're supposed to send to the front lines the culture war is as thick as it's ever been

00:25:14.520 uh the church is in more need than ever before of good godly ministers good godly men to fill

00:25:21.260 pulpits and it's for one it's 50 women so that's 50 that won't be going to the pulpit spoiler

00:25:26.260 probably about 25 of them will in due time yes so half of that can't even go into the pulpits

00:25:30.920 Then the other half, it's this?

00:25:36.420 Like, this is what we have to...

00:25:39.560 Part of it, maybe we pick this apart a little more later on, but part of it is that I think that we don't know what seminaries are for anymore.

00:25:51.160 Right?

00:25:51.760 And so if seminary is just to provide the brand new Christian a place to explore his journey in Christ...

00:26:00.740 That's just not seminary. 0.62

00:26:01.600 That's not seminary.

00:26:03.180 That's actually a local church.

00:26:04.740 Right, that's a local church.

00:26:06.860 But that, you know, some of the people in that clip, like this was the myth of the university,

00:26:13.080 have the college experience, find yourself, discover who you are, just apply it in a Christian context.

00:26:18.240 Not, we're training warriors to go out and advance Christ's kingdom from the pulpit

00:26:24.080 and in writing and in scholarship of what Christ has said through the Word

00:26:29.360 and what the Church Fathers have said throughout history.

00:26:32.240 Like, this is not military training here.

00:26:35.720 This is not the army of the living God here.

00:26:40.940 This is find yourself and come do it at our seminary.

00:26:44.240 It's role-playing in many ways.

00:26:45.900 One other thing that I noticed, right?

00:26:48.240 So you guys bought me some time, so I've been able to calm down.

00:26:52.280 i think i can say it very very calmly um but uh is it just me maybe you know i could be biased but

00:26:59.480 i saw a lot of chicks yeah like i i think 50 might be low i think 50 like if i said half were

00:27:07.280 were female um i i think that that would not be accurate i think it was well over half wow now

00:27:14.220 that doesn't mean that like i don't i don't have the roster in front of me but i'm just saying

00:27:17.660 that this is still a video that they put out i'm assuming it's something that they feel good about

00:27:22.260 they think it's this is putting our best foot forward this is like this is what we want to

00:27:25.680 represent so that doesn't mean that over half of their enrollment is uh female but it does mean

00:27:31.240 that in terms of like what we want to present we want to present that you know in in our video

00:27:36.460 we want to display as though over half of the people here on campus are women well this just

00:27:44.320 happened at Reformed Theological Seminary in Jackson. They posted a video of new student

00:27:48.160 orientation for the lunch. You got blasted for that one. I didn't get destroyed because I was

00:27:52.220 right, and I got way more likes than comments. But people were mad because I pointed out it was

00:27:56.480 about 50% women. It was a lunch setting. Some of them were maybe wives, so maybe even. It was 30%, 0.90

00:28:01.360 40%. But this is at Reformed Theological Seminary. I couldn't find the quote. Calvin himself

00:28:06.460 commentating on 1 Timothy, he says, if a woman should spend all her days in the church in prayer

00:28:11.160 and piety and teaching and service that would not be as acceptable to god as to rear up the home and

00:28:16.700 to love her children in the reformed tradition that is what we've believed that the place of

00:28:21.160 the woman is the home to serve and to love her husband if she is married uh to love her children

00:28:26.340 to teach them and then you but we pan out then and we look at the incoming class of rts jackson 0.54

00:28:32.100 and uh it's 40 women to go do what to go girl boss to go be like imagine imagine walking into

00:28:39.740 marriage counseling and it's it's kaylee who's 25 with an ma in biblical counseling i'm sorry i'd

00:28:45.220 say oh i must be in the wrong room i'll i'll see myself out the hall yeah right let me do we want

00:28:53.100 to hit a break or uh yeah let's go ahead to our first commercial break and then we're going to

00:28:56.800 come back we're going to engage with the chat you guys go ahead and uh we've already done a little

00:29:00.000 bit but uh we want to be in the habit each week of trying to answer some of your questions so if

00:29:04.820 you say hey this you know make it clear it's a question question and then go ahead and state it

00:29:09.480 And we're going to come back.

00:29:10.700 We're going to deal with a few more, a little bit more of the subject matter, but then we're

00:29:14.900 going to start engaging with you guys and answering questions.

00:29:17.000 So first commercial break.

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00:31:41.620 Welcome back. Thanks for adding those questions. Those of you who had questions, we'll go ahead

00:31:45.180 and get to them a little bit later in the segment. I did promise I would go back and give a little

00:31:49.060 bit of a list of some of these individuals that have been influential. Yeah, what do we do, Wes?

00:31:52.280 What do we do? Well, what we do comes after who. My bad. Why is the problem? Because we played a

00:31:56.780 clip of someone, Evangelicals for Harris, and someone could say, well, okay, come on, you found

00:32:00.200 one bad person that graduated from the seminary that's not the whole story but i'm going to go

00:32:03.980 through i'm going to name i'm not going to take a ton of time with this name some of the most

00:32:07.100 influential and subversive individuals and where they came up where they taught and how they got

00:32:12.160 their influence so one of the big ones is russell moore russell moore went to sbts and not only went

00:32:18.220 there then went on to professor there and do you think he would have been appointed to the er

00:32:22.980 erlc where he did all that damage if he did not first spend 10 to 15 years in the southern baptist

00:32:28.500 Theological Seminary Circuit? Absolutely not. That's where he made a name for himself. Went

00:32:32.900 there, taught there. Ed Stetzer, S-B-T-S. Stephen Furtick went to a Southern Baptist Theological

00:32:38.660 Seminary. Lots of great stuff coming out of him. Jamar Tisby, one of the greatest race hustlers

00:32:44.860 out there today. I mean, he's got the grift on point. He was on a podcast, it was a decent time

00:32:49.800 ago, like two years, and there's a woman there talking about queer theology and the inclusion

00:32:53.260 of everyone didn't breathe the word of protest when he came out of rts in 2016 ligan duncan

00:32:58.980 another terrible example chancellor of rts was singing his praises jamar tisby is a bright right

00:33:05.780 right that was eric mason my bad but he was singing his praises jamar tisby is the future

00:33:11.620 of reformed theology he is a bright brilliant mind who's going to go on and defend theology

00:33:16.360 of god and the reformed tradition it's just embarrassing yeah uh some of these other issues

00:33:22.880 the crucial point of attack and people have done a terrible job with them timothy keller that's

00:33:27.900 gordon conwell and then taught till the end of his life at rts he's bad on abortion he's bad on a

00:33:32.660 number of things sadly abortion was a big spot paul david tripp westminster theological seminary

00:33:38.100 lectured there race relations uh wait wait wait wait he lectured on race relations not at

00:33:43.220 westminster but in 2020 he did a struggle session on the stairs of his apartment i remember it was

00:33:48.680 a struggle session for all struggle sessions but he but how did these people have their names yeah

00:33:53.680 they went to conservative evangelical seminaries attended taught wrote books wrote academic stuff

00:34:00.060 and then got their name their conference circuit this that or the other dude what what year was

00:34:05.480 it for you guys when you realized that uh the phrase gospel centered just meant voting for

00:34:09.460 democrats for me it was 2018 yeah which i'm ashamed to say i was it took me eric mason

00:34:16.360 writing woke church right and uh that's when i left acts 29 and i realized oh gospel center just

00:34:21.840 means pastors ignoring everything in scripture but the law or but the gospel and avoiding the

00:34:28.340 law of god uh so that their parishioners who already vote for democrats won't leave their

00:34:33.720 church and will continue to tithe like that took you know i feel embarrassed to say it but it took

00:34:38.560 me until 2018 to realize that gospel-centered means pastors who assuage the conscience of

00:34:44.960 democrat voters so that their churches can be larger yeah yep but what year for you guys it

00:34:49.620 was when i heard you say it yep there you go yeah about 2018 2019 i remember listening to you and i

00:34:55.840 was like oh yeah that's pretty much and then we saw it in 2020 on display who else crumbled

00:35:00.860 jonathan lehman i think it was actually westminster that he also taught some visiting

00:35:05.420 classes at or maybe rts christian political engagement owen strand r scott clark kevin de

00:35:12.260 young seminary bread seminary teachers and their political engagement has been terrible just

00:35:19.360 listened to today i did it in the car which i don't recommend like you if you were in your car

00:35:23.220 that's dangerous do not put on mortification of spin with carl truman and todd pritt because you'll

00:35:27.580 want to crash your car you will look for the easiest way out to stop the pain and the suffering

00:35:31.500 yes so todd pritt and carl truman for anyone who's not familiar they're the ones who put amy bird on

00:35:36.920 the map amy bird is a feminist who they hosted on their podcast many times and unleashed her on 1.00

00:35:42.420 years ago yeah in the opc and then eventually she started getting a blog and then she started what

00:35:47.800 was that book in 2018 responding to biblical manhood or womanhood yeah yeah she came up

00:35:53.240 no but i don't think it was just responding to i think it was like beyond gender yeah beyond

00:35:57.960 or like leaving

00:35:59.680 or deconstructing

00:36:00.920 from you know

00:36:01.840 recovering

00:36:02.300 recovering

00:36:02.780 that's what it was

00:36:04.060 recovering

00:36:04.760 recovering from the Bible

00:36:06.360 and now she preaches

00:36:07.220 on Sunday morning

00:36:07.880 she does

00:36:08.560 Carl Truman

00:36:09.140 and Todd Pritt

00:36:09.720 who put her on the map

00:36:10.800 where she is now

00:36:12.020 deconstructed

00:36:13.000 preaching on a Sunday morning

00:36:14.040 where does she preach

00:36:14.860 Sunday morning

00:36:15.360 not in the OPC

00:36:16.980 not in the OPC

00:36:18.200 maybe in Carl Truman's

00:36:19.640 living room

00:36:20.060 like a personal sermon

00:36:21.100 for him

00:36:21.440 he would allow that

00:36:22.580 Presbyterian church

00:36:23.100 I think it's somewhere

00:36:24.040 in the east

00:36:25.700 I believe it was Tennessee

00:36:27.180 I remember

00:36:27.720 they were all very excited that amy bird such a bummer because i remember reading um the uh what

00:36:32.920 was it the triumph of the triumph of the modern self exactly i remember reading that and saying

00:36:36.740 yeah it's a pretty good book i i didn't think it was as amazing as everybody else but i was like

00:36:41.900 yeah this guy like i'm you know i'm just being you know petting and and envious if i can't

00:36:48.720 acknowledge like this guy is a good thinker he's got a good mind this is helpful and i remember he

00:36:53.220 came to our town to georgetown there was a church that hosted him and he gave a presentation that

00:36:58.480 was similar to the book just like um in a general sense this is bad and it deals with questions of

00:37:05.220 identity and it answers them precisely in the opposite way that the bible wouldn't so yeah

00:37:09.120 that's really good um but then there was a follow-up for pastors only the next morning that

00:37:14.860 was hosted and um and i got to go and it was you know maybe 25 other pastors in the room

00:37:19.800 and in that scenario it was a q a where we got to actually engage with them and um i remember

00:37:25.420 asking you know some practical questions like you know well okay with transgenderism and these

00:37:30.240 kinds of things um what do you do if there's a gay pride parade you know in your hometown and

00:37:36.100 you know they're marching through the street and and in some of these cases as we've seen you know

00:37:40.760 like um guys who are straight up naked and you know gyrating in front of little little children

00:37:45.700 um so like what do you what do you do with that um and uh and and then i was even you know and he

00:37:52.560 gave an answer that was just kind of weak and so then i even pressed further and just saying like

00:37:56.280 well can you um can you oppose it can you can you can you stand and and preach and tell them that

00:38:04.360 this is perversion and uh can you oppose it is there any muscular option and uh and the answer

00:38:12.200 It was pretty clear no.

00:38:14.360 Well, he just said today in that episode that I listened to, they were talking about Christian nationalism.

00:38:19.160 Of course.

00:38:19.940 I mentioned the Amy Bird thing to say. 0.52

00:38:21.180 Their discernment, their record's already rocky.

00:38:23.560 He said this, but they, that is Christian nationalists, are an existential threat to congregations and denominations. 0.59

00:38:30.420 And that's why we need to be very aware of what's going on online relative to individuals coming forward from ministry now. 0.52

00:38:35.840 And he actually said, when we get seminarians and we're testing for their ordination, we need to be asking them if they're Christian nationalists.

00:38:42.860 That's what they said in that episode today.

00:38:44.580 Not because they want that.

00:38:45.640 Because they would weed it out.

00:38:46.500 Exactly.

00:38:47.060 So Spurgeon will ban the unmanly men, and they will ban the ones who want their nation to honor God.

00:38:52.940 Right.

00:38:53.260 Which also is the masculine.

00:38:55.700 That's right.

00:38:56.520 And that's what it really comes down to.

00:38:58.660 Again, a system, it's not what it's called.

00:39:00.880 It's what it does.

00:39:01.740 The purpose of a system is what it does.

00:39:03.260 um and so the purpose of you know the seminary uh system i think we have to acknowledge at some

00:39:08.400 level um it is to crush masculinity i really believe that so whether it's um whether it's

00:39:15.080 carl truman and opc seminaries you know trying to weed out uh christian nationalism right wanting

00:39:21.280 a christian to be distinct a nation to be distinctly christian to honor god and to legislate

00:39:27.340 here's the thing

00:39:29.720 and to legislate

00:39:30.600 both tables of the law

00:39:31.520 in other words

00:39:32.820 having the same views

00:39:34.720 as John Calvin

00:39:35.500 and John Gill

00:39:36.880 on the Baptist side

00:39:37.700 the confessional view

00:39:38.860 and I know about

00:39:39.660 the American revision

00:39:40.460 it's still perfectly

00:39:42.060 it's perfectly

00:39:42.900 yeah

00:39:43.180 whether it be Philadelphia

00:39:44.720 whether it be London

00:39:45.700 it is perfectly

00:39:47.560 compliant with both

00:39:48.620 so

00:39:50.200 but the point is

00:39:51.460 it's not just that

00:39:52.200 it's not just like

00:39:52.800 oh we want to weed out politics

00:39:53.920 we want to

00:39:54.440 if you

00:39:54.960 If you subtract it down to the lowest common denominator of, you know, trying to ban a

00:40:01.760 muscular political approach, you know, or trying to, not too much cultural engagement

00:40:05.240 or this or that, what it all has in common is the purpose of seminaries is to feminize

00:40:12.640 the church.

00:40:13.060 That's right.

00:40:13.480 I believe that.

00:40:14.080 I really do.

00:40:14.920 So, it's like, what have we seen?

00:40:16.500 The current iteration of seminaries.

00:40:17.720 Exactly.

00:40:18.340 Exactly.

00:40:18.700 It's not what it was supposed to, originally, but that's what it is today.

00:40:21.120 and um and if you think well but i'm in the opc and they're super conservative the guys the opc

00:40:28.100 gave you amy bird that's right you just have to own that all right that's like i'm not saying you

00:40:32.400 suck with everything i'm grateful for the opc in many in many different ways but that's a giant l

00:40:36.980 and you have to wear it you know just like the scarlet letter a you know like you have to walk 0.97

00:40:40.720 around and you have to say you know by the grace of god you know there's hope but also unclean

00:40:46.700 unclean we we unleashed amy bird on the world that is that that is carl truman and uh that's

00:40:53.540 you you got to own that well think about but my point is like with that and the video we showed

00:40:57.820 all the women coming to so whether it's uh their enrollments with all the women or whether it's

00:41:03.060 banning christian nationalism in with opc you know like conservative seminaries or whether it's this 0.66

00:41:08.340 that and the other um i really do think that like the point of seminary is um is is to feminize

00:41:16.560 the church i really do what the westminster seminary they finally got all the faculty

00:41:20.860 together to write a book in the 90s and what was it against abortion transgenderism the sexual

00:41:25.380 revolution against theonomy right westminster which provides it's not affiliated with the

00:41:30.920 denomination so it is not technically a pc okay so say that again this is in the 90s i remember

00:41:35.300 so in the 90s from greg bonson is pretty based on that he's like he's like you have to lock your

00:41:39.860 windows at night is that like right like people are there murder is at an all-time high there's

00:41:45.360 this going on and that going on and uh and you want to uh you want to got everyone together

00:41:50.380 because it's hard to get everyone together against theonomy that's your big concern so they got all

00:41:55.000 the faculty this is the project can we get everyone together can you write this can you

00:41:59.540 write that has a fantastic comment i don't know if we should read it but hey zach i know you're

00:42:04.740 listening and i you just like the scripture says give honor where honor is due uh well done brother

00:42:10.060 that is yep you did well all right how do i fix it though i can't say it no no i won't say i don't

00:42:16.480 i don't i can say it on our show the problem is i get picked up by somebody else and then that

00:42:19.920 will it'll be seven seconds yeah and that'll be the only thing they'll be like yeah joel webbin

00:42:24.800 uh doesn't he believe in mermaids and he also said that one time yeah anyways that's it that's

00:42:29.660 what you're known for right all right we've pointed out the problems it is not just a one-off

00:42:34.020 here and one-off there it is a systemic problem can i can i just say one other thing before we

00:42:38.300 can go there go for it there are seminaries like the master's seminary where they do not allow

00:42:43.340 women yep um they do not allow their students to go into debt to pay for seminary they're not

00:42:51.280 taking government money and yet a lot of the people that are coming out of them are not the

00:42:56.940 manly warrior types right like it is not just an issue um joel i think you're onto something it's

00:43:02.720 not just an issue of well the seminaries that took government money or not right there has been a

00:43:07.400 prevailing trend to make christianity feminine and when that is the goal the training for those who

00:43:16.100 will train other christians is to feminize them as well right and that's why when zachary garris

00:43:22.760 writes a book masking christianity that until not long ago was just common thought and belief it's

00:43:30.040 it's this firestorm and and so i like i just west before you go into fixing it i want some people

00:43:36.760 Joel you've said this when they when we talk about public schools they'll say yeah those are all

00:43:40.860 terrible but mine is great right and some of them are going to say yeah seminaries are terrible but

00:43:45.740 the one you know the one that we send our guys to is fantastic and it's like you need to ask

00:43:51.280 yourself how many of the products of the seminary that your church sends men to are battling for

00:43:58.300 truth not compromising truth so we're not seeing social justice on relevant cultural issues right

00:44:03.820 there's lots who are battling for cultural issues. They're the woke social justice Christians. So how

00:44:10.380 many of them are based theologically and are fighting the current battles? Right? Not very

00:44:15.420 many of them. To credit where credit is due, the forward to Zachary Garris' Honor Thy Fathers,

00:44:20.460 an anti-feminist work, was written by Joseph Pipa, who is chancellor or president at Greenville

00:44:27.740 Presbyterian Theological Seminary. They do admit women. I actually had a really good friend who

00:44:31.580 went there but it does seem like overall a rigorous program especially if you're going there

00:44:35.340 for more the academic part of it the formal instruction versus the actually being made

00:44:40.720 behavior into a masculine man so great point michael i'm going to say these three things

00:44:45.560 um they are not going to be the only things they're going to fix it but i think they are the

00:44:48.760 base level to getting back to where our seminaries are just even putting out people that are not

00:44:53.820 going to counter signal other christians that are not going to go to war with not the world the

00:44:58.460 flesh and the devil, but turn their fire on the Christians out there doing good work. So three

00:45:03.800 things, I'll read them all, and then we can discuss maybe each one in turn, maybe more,

00:45:07.740 maybe less. Get women out of seminary. There's, in a seminary context, again, not all education 1.00

00:45:13.280 we've talked about, but in a seminary context, get women out. We've talked about why for the

00:45:17.520 women's, but also the dynamic of a woman in a classroom, women are, they're less aggressive, 1.00

00:45:22.920 which is good and right. That's how God made them. They're less aggressive, they're less 1.00

00:45:26.300 confrontational and they're more passive, that changes the dynamic of a classroom. It neuters

00:45:32.120 the type of male initiative, edge, and discipline that should be present in the men that we would

00:45:39.960 hope that would come to our pulpits. So men that are going to preach, men that are going to engage

00:45:43.160 the culture, men that are going to live godly lives, we want them at some level to have an

00:45:47.000 edge. But if every single classroom they have to share and debate and do group projects with is

00:45:52.600 50% women, 30% women, 20% women, that classroom is going to be suited to the feminine sensibilities 0.96

00:45:58.660 that God has made women to have. God made women to be more passive, to be less aggressive, 1.00

00:46:03.500 and those are wonderful in their context. And the context is not a classroom where we're training

00:46:08.320 men to go into pastoral ministry. So get women out of seminary. As professors as well. As professors 1.00

00:46:14.980 as well. Yeah. Not just enrolling. Yep. Students and professors. Attach pastoral training to local

00:46:20.660 churches. We had a question on this, so I'll dive more into detail on that a little bit after, but

00:46:24.500 at least for the time, I think it's wisest that seminaries be attached to churches, attached to

00:46:29.260 the oversight, attached to the elders, attached to the structure, the teaching, the lecturing of

00:46:33.880 pastors in a local church. And then finally, make seminary manly again, like you said. And there is

00:46:40.460 a faux masculinity, so I'm not talking about a bench press requirement, although I truly believe

00:46:46.720 this guys you could put me in a lie detector test for a while now so this is not just clickbait you

00:46:51.040 make the entry requirement to seminary bench 225 for three and you would fix seminaries in 10 years

00:46:57.200 i'm not even kidding if you made that and and not to have to do it every year for the rest of your

00:47:03.480 life but you're a man you're preparing for entry into seminary you need to actually be a man you

00:47:08.900 need to actually have a little bit of a chest a man in his 20s should be able to get there in like

00:47:12.420 three to four months. And if you don't have the discipline to do that, we don't really want you.

00:47:17.240 I'm sorry. There's lots of good men out there. So making seminaries manly, that starts with faculty,

00:47:21.780 well-disciplined men who look sharp, who present well, who have, like I talked about, an edge to

00:47:27.360 them, who teach, are godly, they're strong, they're willing to say offensive things. Make seminaries

00:47:32.500 manly again, get women out, and attach them to local churches. Those, I think, would be a great

00:47:37.360 starting point um in this yeah to making seminaries great again make seminary great again yeah they

00:47:45.200 were great and they are not anymore i think that's well thought out that's good michael any thoughts

00:47:50.080 yeah um i just the only one i'll add and i already said this is just and i don't know where

00:47:56.480 i don't know where this change can happen but the perception of what seminaries are for

00:48:02.920 needs to change. And part of that's going to be godly men coming into leadership at seminaries

00:48:08.320 and them just putting an end to the nonsense, saying, no, we are not providing, you know,

00:48:13.680 church revitalization, inner city church revitalization programs, right? And so I don't

00:48:20.680 think that there's really any other way than for godly men going to seminaries and saying,

00:48:24.900 we're not offering these fluff degrees. This is not a place to find yourself. This is not a place

00:48:29.800 for you to, as a baby Christian, you know, study, like, it's not that. So at some point, 0.94

00:48:39.640 seminaries are going to have to properly position themselves and define themselves.

00:48:43.840 And part of that is, this is not a new idea to us, we've mentioned it before,

00:48:49.240 but part of that is not elevating the pastoral ministry as the only viable option for ambitious,

00:48:56.500 well-qualified men who love jesus who love jesus yeah and so if there are if the church and pastors

00:49:04.520 esteem other things other programs then seminary doesn't have to be this end all like christian

00:49:12.980 experience it can just be a tool that trains pastors right trains pastors in in theology and

00:49:19.280 to think about relevant issues but is simply just that brian survey i think it was in a king's hall

00:49:25.700 episode and they talked about, it might have been seminaries and education, but they said the ideal

00:49:29.220 situation is you have a church that's been established and there's a young man who shows

00:49:33.240 potential and desires it. So, he's been vetted, families know him, and then seminary is merely

00:49:38.760 the addendum on what might be an already qualified man to go on and do that vocationally. So, he's

00:49:44.880 already a leader, already godly, already qualified, already leading his family. There's just a piece

00:49:50.800 on some of the systematic theology that he hasn't been able to learn because maybe he works a full

00:49:54.780 time job. That's where the seminary comes in. And then probably he comes back to the local church

00:49:59.980 to benefit. And again, he's installed as a pastor, not as somebody, somebody mentioned just sending

00:50:04.640 out your resume across the nation. He's not so-and-so from the Denver seminary that we

00:50:08.680 don't know from Adam. It's a young man who came up in this church, who we've known him and his

00:50:12.920 family for 10 to 15 years. We've witnessed him grow as a man, and now he has a formal theological

00:50:18.100 education. He's sharp as a tack. He can rebuff any assault in the scripture, and you bring that man

00:50:23.520 back in that man back in that is the recipe for someone who will do decades by god's grace of good

00:50:29.800 faithful godly ministry the situation we have now the attrition rates from ministry yes they're bad

00:50:34.680 a lot of men don't stick with it yeah they spend all the money and they don't even continue in

00:50:38.480 ministry but that one it's not going to be perfect that's going to get you a lot better success fruit

00:50:44.060 and godliness on the long term than this is the the current model we have right now right but what

00:50:50.300 it would mean is probably just a lot less people go to seminary well and so it's just yep it's

00:50:56.240 well you know it's funny because you know everybody everybody is uh very very very

00:51:02.260 concerned you know troubled and concerned the concern bros right there's there's such a thing

00:51:06.820 as a theo bro but there's certainly such a thing as a concern bro we've got a couple in the chat

00:51:10.620 right here i'm looking at them um the concern bros are real and one of their deep deep deep

00:51:16.340 concerns is grifting and they think that somehow um that anybody with a podcast has a monopoly

00:51:22.100 on grifting but if we want to talk about professional level you know like like gold

00:51:28.120 tier level grifting like right because i i mean i'm over here you know just doing a podcast and

00:51:33.720 i i may be a grifter but i must not be very good at it you know because because if we want to talk

00:51:39.540 about champions of grifting um we're talking about entire you know like like 200 300 400 acre

00:51:46.920 campuses you know and and stone buildings and you know millions and hundreds of millions of

00:51:53.020 dollars of assets and you know employing you know hundreds of people and all you know tenured

00:51:58.560 professions where you can never lose your job and good retirement or like now that that is a grift

00:52:05.320 and um but it ain't the podcasters um it's the it's the it's a seminary yeah um seminaries have

00:52:13.820 become like it's it's like anything else just like a mega church or anything you know the the purpose

00:52:17.940 of the system is what it does and sadly at this point uh seminaries are an end in themselves it's

00:52:23.900 it's not a means to the end of actually um benefiting the church it's just how can our

00:52:28.920 seminary grow not how the church of jesus but how can the seminary continue to grow well one way you

00:52:33.260 can get anything to grow, is if you double the market, you know, and say like, hey, you

00:52:39.520 know what, upon further research, you know, we went back to the Scripture and we realized 0.98

00:52:44.300 that, I mean, yeah, okay, you know, maybe a woman still can't be a pastor, we'll keep

00:52:49.140 our, you know, our complementarian, soft complementarian card, you know, in our back pocket, but there's 0.99

00:52:54.340 no reason that a woman can't go to seminary, because, I mean, that's great, if she racks 0.92

00:52:57.860 up $80,000 in debt, you know, training to do something that the Scripture won't allow

00:53:01.960 her to do in the first place that's great you know because she's going to teach her kids you 0.96

00:53:05.600 know and and don't we want you know a seminary trained woman to teach her kids you know and it's 0.99

00:53:11.040 like no um we want uh intelligent well-learned women training their kids yes um but i don't 1.00

00:53:18.700 think that you have to do that for 80 grand i don't think that you have to do that at seminary

00:53:22.320 we are not against women learning what we're against is we're against uh grifters uh charging

00:53:29.360 women $80,000 to learn with no way of getting a return and keeping women in many cases from doing

00:53:37.200 the very thing that God has called them to do because they're racking up debt and it's actually 1.00

00:53:43.200 going to become a hindrance, not a help, but a hindrance towards marriage and family. The very

00:53:48.300 thing that a lot of these young women actually in their heart of hearts would like to be, a wife and

00:53:53.700 a mother and you're you're actually putting them behind not ahead in that endeavor well and along

00:54:00.860 those lines it it troubles me that whenever this conversation comes up with with due respect to the

00:54:09.500 commentators because you know i don't i don't know you or or how many times you may have raised this

00:54:14.260 objection in your life but it's troubling that in general when this conversation comes up someone

00:54:18.460 comes along and says well you think that a woman can't learn theology and our perspective on where

00:54:27.240 on where we are to learn theology is like like maybe this is a product of seminaries maybe they've

00:54:33.240 marketed themselves as the place to learn the bible that is a profoundly unchristian idea it's

00:54:40.000 profoundly un-american christian idea right that you would have to go to seminary to learn the bible

00:54:45.780 Well, if that's the case, then yes, we are withholding theological knowledge from great swaths of people.

00:54:53.120 And we need more and more and more seminaries.

00:54:55.580 No, the church and fathers, and even go read a book, are to be the ways that the Christians in a society learn theology.

00:55:05.360 And God help us if the perception is the church is not for learning.

00:55:09.440 The church is not for learning theology.

00:55:11.160 And this is maybe a product of the seeker-sensitive movements who were a mile wide, an inch deep, where you don't learn theology when you go to a church.

00:55:19.680 So maybe that has contributed some to the idea that, well, if you really want to learn, you must go to seminary. 0.67

00:55:24.280 But that is a fatal idea to the life of Christians and to the church.

00:55:29.200 Let's hit our second commercial break, and then we'll take the questions.

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00:58:05.840 Well, welcome back.

00:58:07.120 In this final segment, we've been taking questions,

00:58:09.360 so if you have a question, go ahead and phrase

00:58:11.120 it as a question, a question mark,

00:58:13.160 give it a preface or something like that

00:58:15.020 so we can see it. It was a good question.

00:58:17.280 Peter asked a set of questions that we'll

00:58:19.060 get to, but Paul asked a good question.

00:58:20.940 I'm going to read it out, and I'd like to hear

00:58:22.900 your guys' thoughts. Paul said this,

00:58:24.940 I have a daughter. What would be a biblical 0.99

00:58:26.760 educational education i could give her i kind of want to try i just want to try to say his last

00:58:33.660 name paul i don't know if it's his last name art yomenko art yomenko art yomenko i like that i saw

00:58:41.380 that and i said there's there's no way i'm even trying paul great to have you in the chat i saw

00:58:45.420 that last name and i felt embarrassed because the first thought that i had was like hyo miyasaki

00:58:51.580 and most people will not even know what i'm talking about i'm not going to explain it because

00:58:55.740 i don't want to embarrass myself further so anyways paul good question uh the question is

00:59:00.180 what you know how do i teach my daughter yeah if i'm not going to send her to seminary you know pay

00:59:04.560 80 grand 120 grand uh what do we teach her what do you think i i do think that there's a certain

00:59:11.420 sense where um we're preparing our daughters generally and specifically so of course you're

00:59:18.500 going to know your daughter you're going to know the giftings that god has given to her

00:59:21.200 you're going to know the abilities that that you know so you might you might have a daughter who's

00:59:27.040 who's just quick with math and and you might say look let's you could maybe learn accounting or

00:59:33.200 something like that that you can do from home and certainly your family budget you can manage your

00:59:36.000 husband's business um that would be a direction but you might have a daughter who it's like you

00:59:40.960 need to marry a guy who's good with math because you've got other skills but he's going to be doing

00:59:44.640 you know more of the math side in your family so there's a sense where there's not a cookie cutter

00:59:49.720 answer, but if we're talking higher education, my priorities are things that enhance and align

00:59:58.760 with feminine virtues, things that can be done from and for the home, and things that are not 1.00

01:00:06.140 going to put her on a career path where maybe she is single for a couple years, so she does take a 0.99

01:00:11.020 secular job, and she's supporting herself that way, and then she gets married, and now to pull 1.00

01:00:15.940 the plug on this career is an unthinkable idea for her so feminine qualities qualities that will 1.00

01:00:22.900 benefit the home that can be done from the home and certainly not things like like if you send 1.00

01:00:27.140 your daughter to law school and she has 120 000 in debt she's going to have to work for x amount

01:00:33.120 of time to pay that off regardless of whether she gets married or not right yep that's good i agree

01:00:38.980 um something i would say is just uh you know i i've always been a fan of books you know i just

01:00:46.160 think that uh there's you know there's this one uh scene with goodwill hunting the movie where

01:00:51.900 he kind of is putting the the highly educated ivy league you know student in his place you know

01:00:59.200 will the main character is poor and he can't afford to go to the school and pay tuition

01:01:02.960 but he's smart and he said you know the real shame is that um you know that uh you're spending

01:01:09.540 hundreds of thousands of dollars to get an education that you could have got uh with a

01:01:13.740 library card and a few overdue fines you know something like that and so um now i i'm not

01:01:19.600 saying that there there is something to be said for organized and disciplined study yeah um the

01:01:25.040 reality is that uh by not going to seminary there are certain things that you will almost certainly

01:01:30.340 neglect you will because um you just won't like them you won't like them exactly yeah you just

01:01:36.700 won't like them like i you know uh in different seasons of my life i've beefed up my understanding

01:01:41.320 of different subjects as i've developed interest for those subjects or or the need or the need or

01:01:47.180 i've been around i've you know in relationships and community with other people who are interested

01:01:52.680 about those subjects and so then would drive me you know having a season where i'm particularly

01:01:57.160 interested in church history, you know, and right now I'm particularly interested in one,

01:02:02.320 you know, subset of church history, namely the Crusades, because me and every other, you know,

01:02:07.120 man around 40, you know, and under read, you know, Defenders of the West and, you know,

01:02:13.200 and God's Battalions and, you know, and so, but my point is like, there's a lot. There's a lot

01:02:20.380 that can be gained simply by studying and by reading. And, you know, if you want disciplined

01:02:24.980 studies um you know i mean all all these seminaries for the most part have their curriculum

01:02:31.320 um and their you know all their courses and all their classes and the books for those courses and

01:02:37.060 classes listed for free online videos too that you can watch a lot of them have yeah so so just

01:02:43.720 for the record um because somebody in the chat continues to just absolutely insist uh that we

01:02:50.740 don't want women to learn um no that's not what we're saying we don't want women in debt

01:02:57.740 that's what i'm trying to say what i'm saying is that i don't think that we should send our 0.98

01:03:02.880 daughters to seminaries which their whole design or at least it was supposed to be originally

01:03:08.640 was to train men for the ministry right and the bible prohibits women from preaching and from

01:03:17.720 pastoral ministry vocational so we're saying women who primarily first and foremost that 0.98

01:03:24.280 doesn't mean that out of the overflow of her domestic feminine virtue and ministry at home

01:03:29.740 that there's not an overflow like the proverbs 31 woman that it begins to overflow into other

01:03:34.480 things and this and that and blah blah blah that's fine that's not what we're talking about

01:03:38.600 but we're saying first and foremost um it is domestic it is feminine it is wife it is mother

01:03:44.600 that's first and foremost and what it certainly can't be which it seems like most people in the

01:03:49.400 chat are agreeing with most of them are it's cute you know when you're complimentarian think you're

01:03:54.740 conservative but you know everybody you know is pretending to be conservative in the chat today

01:03:58.860 and so then you would all agree that um that the woman can't preach and that she can't be a pastor

01:04:03.980 so what does that mean it means she doesn't if she's first and foremost called to be a mom 0.65

01:04:08.640 wife and a mom and she can't preach or be a pastor then um can we just agree that maybe the

01:04:15.720 first step of direction that we take is not racking up 120 grand of student loans at seminary

01:04:23.100 that's that's what i'm saying i'm not saying that there's one subject matter that that seminary is

01:04:28.660 going to cover that she can't learn but she doesn't need to learn it there right she doesn't

01:04:33.720 need to be there right she can learn it with her dad she can learn it with her husband she can learn

01:04:38.320 it by herself and just studying with all the ancient fathers and reading Aquinas and reading

01:04:43.700 Athanasius and reading Calvin. I'm not prohibiting any of that.

01:04:48.600 If anything, praise God that a woman would feel, if it's born out of a good desire,

01:04:52.740 to love God more, to know Him.

01:04:53.980 Right. If she's in this stage of being an adolescent and she's not yet married and she

01:04:59.020 has time on her hands and she wants to be productive and she has a desire for knowing

01:05:03.180 God, the study of God, that's what theology is, all that's great. I'm just saying that

01:05:07.720 she doesn't need to go to the place that was invented originally for training pastors if the

01:05:14.640 book, namely the Bible, says that she can't be one. That doesn't make sense. And more than the

01:05:20.740 debt thing, too, and you're alluding to that right there at the end, if a woman goes to seminary,

01:05:25.720 part of her self-conception, her purpose, right? Because when we educate ourselves, 0.78

01:05:30.020 it's usually for a purpose. If I go study to be an attorney, my idea is I got to do something with

01:05:35.920 law to justify the four, six, or whatever, seven years that I spent studying law. And if we send

01:05:41.640 women to seminaries, part of their perceived purpose in life is going to be some sort of 0.99

01:05:47.140 theological training of others or ministry, vocational ministry. And so even from right 1.00

01:05:54.300 there, we set women who go to seminaries up to assume, I have to do some sort of ministry, 0.73

01:06:00.940 right more even along with the debt that they rack up their their perception on their calling

01:06:08.480 in life is some sort of ministry or some sort of theological training yeah you saw that in the

01:06:13.080 video let's say just add one more thing we can hit the next questions to uh paul's point but

01:06:17.980 if you're if you're all of your children your sons and your daughters if they're well catechized

01:06:23.220 and taught uh coming up through the ranks they will know so much bible just by virtue of learning

01:06:28.760 the Westminster Shorter Catechism, learning memory verses, sitting under teaching. We talked about

01:06:32.960 family integrated, sitting under the teaching of a pastor thousands of times. So if you get to that

01:06:37.740 point in their 18, I would say, if it's a good family, most children, and even some men that

01:06:43.360 maybe will go out and do some type of blue-collar work, have enough of a biblical foundation

01:06:48.720 that should last them through their life. The disciplines of prayer, the disciplines of

01:06:53.940 the sabbath and of worship um personal devotion those should all be instilled by 18 so we're

01:07:01.080 thinking about like a biblical education well it's going to happen at home gradually to the

01:07:05.620 point where at 18 i would say most boys and girls if they've been brought up right they have

01:07:10.440 enough that they need for the most part and that can be supplemented as needed

01:07:14.240 pastoral counsel wisdom things like that um but yeah i would say yeah mostly you should know

01:07:21.500 know your bible and uh if you're well taught you will all right uh peter sawyer let's not read all

01:07:27.500 three of these questions so what are the thoughts about the system in place where young men age 22

01:07:31.920 to 25 or so go to seminary and then send out resumes to churches for employment does this

01:07:37.180 system so the system he just talked about sending out resumes does it not produce hirelings last

01:07:42.160 question should we not instead recognize qualified men from within the body yeah i think we'd agree

01:07:47.620 on on all three points you said earlier you're going to touch on this topic i think it was in

01:07:51.320 response to this question right about the um seminaries and local churches and yep yeah we

01:07:57.120 touched on it a little bit but um it's it is strange that we live in a time i think of people

01:08:03.240 that i visit that are older than me and i ask them like oh where are your kids what are they

01:08:06.260 doing and they always report a variety of states california texas colorado when so and so is here

01:08:12.120 with our grandkids it is very novel that we would travel as much as we do so we talk about sending

01:08:17.100 out resumes. So say you even go to a seminary local to home, but you didn't come up in the

01:08:21.800 church, that kind of process we talked about. You're going to be sending your resume all over

01:08:25.760 the place. They're going to be congregations that you don't know from Adam. They're going to be

01:08:30.220 people that aren't familiar with you. You're not familiar with them. You're going to go to a state

01:08:33.780 where you're maybe not familiar with the culture, the type of things that people do there in their

01:08:37.640 free time. So it is not an ideal system. And exactly to his point, those young men, they send

01:08:42.360 off the resume because they've graduated. They're not connected to a local church that was actually

01:08:46.560 supporting them as they went through seminary so they send it out and then they leave family

01:08:50.900 that's ideally if anything they've probably already left family to go to seminary but then

01:08:55.360 they leave family they go somewhere else and then they're alone two time zones away making

01:08:59.260 forty thousand dollars a year and struggling and that system absolutely does produce men that go

01:09:03.880 and go uh no i can't do this we want to go back uh i'm not actually cut out for this so it does 0.63

01:09:09.220 i would say produce hirelings and it is much more preferable i think we'd all agree a young man in

01:09:14.380 a local church his gifting is recognized he himself has the desire the first qualification

01:09:19.400 first timothy's first timothy three desire he desires to be an elder the church supports him

01:09:24.700 then in his ministry maybe he goes away for a little while to seminary but then he comes back

01:09:28.780 for service in that church that is much less likely to produce a hireling produce someone

01:09:33.760 who doesn't stick with the ministry than what i just described yep agreed that's good all right

01:09:39.960 I would say it's acceptable.

01:09:43.600 You know, you think of, like, in the U.S., early in the U.S.,

01:09:49.280 they would call ministers over from England to the U.S.

01:09:52.460 And so there is a history of, especially in the Presbyterian Church, right,

01:09:57.380 you're calling ministers in.

01:09:59.120 Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that.

01:10:00.140 It's not inherently wrong.

01:10:02.080 But I think, Wes, what you're saying is the training of a man going into ministry

01:10:09.580 is more than the two or three years he spends at ministry.

01:10:13.120 And if those two or three years are spent at a seminary,

01:10:17.880 good, solid seminary, that's one thing.

01:10:20.480 If the overall context of his training is the evaluation of his character,

01:10:26.860 of how he's leading his family, if he's married already,

01:10:29.560 all of those things coming up through the church,

01:10:33.120 the pastors, the local pastors recognize a gifting.

01:10:35.700 um that's but but but what so many young men and women now are doing is they're treating seminary

01:10:44.300 like a college and it's like what do i want to do well i think maybe i'll just go to seminary

01:10:48.300 right rather than a church putting their stamp of approval on someone not that he's perfect but

01:10:52.960 saying look we believe this is the calling it's a desire you have and rather than send you to go

01:10:58.180 be a lawyer we believe that god has is is setting you apart to go to ministry do ministry and we're

01:11:03.680 going to support you in that so when you come back there'll be a place for you or we'll help

01:11:06.860 you find a place at a church in the area um that's a totally different model than the well let's go

01:11:14.340 to the seminary that gives me the best uh scholarship and then i'll go to the church that

01:11:19.900 will take me yep all right um let's go ahead and what i was gonna say you got a ufo question

01:11:27.660 i see it i see it i'll say it for another time all right all right i appreciate it uh jonathan

01:11:33.160 johnson i see you i hear you i feel you you're speaking my language but i just i don't have it

01:11:39.720 in me today so um let's go ahead and uh land the plane nate do we have any more commercials for

01:11:46.000 today conference all right so one thing that's really important is our early bird pricing it is

01:11:53.080 ending um at the end of this month so you just have that's for the conference in april yep for

01:11:57.160 the conference. So, rightresponseconference.com, Christ is King, How to Defeat Trash World.

01:12:03.040 That is ending August 31st at 1159 p.m. Central Time. So, go and register for that today. Again,

01:12:10.540 that's rightresponseconference.com. We have a super-packed lineup, and it's going to be great.

01:12:17.780 And not everybody, just for the record, intentionally by design, not everybody

01:12:21.160 agrees with everybody theologically. We're going to have multiple panels. We're going to have some

01:12:26.560 discussion we're going to have disagreements we're going to have some debate and discussion and um

01:12:31.480 it's it's going to be really good yeah it's going to be manly we have eight main sessions we have

01:12:36.000 i think four panels um it's thursday friday and saturday uh april 3rd 4th and 5th april 3rd 4th

01:12:43.560 and 5th next year so uh the price is going up it's going up um a decent amount we have the lowest

01:12:48.920 price that we're offering um right now with the early bird special and then the last thing i was

01:12:53.360 going to say is uh check out patreon every single week for the live stream on wednesday michael and

01:12:58.920 they alternate writing an article um for that's that kind of guides our discussion so that we

01:13:04.300 have some preparation coming in for that week's live stream and so uh wes you wrote the article

01:13:09.600 this week and um and so if you want to be able to as someone who writes the article and then

01:13:14.400 sometimes navigates a discussion that doesn't touch on the article just because where it goes

01:13:18.400 the article generally has things that we don't talk about right here in the in the discussion

01:13:22.400 absolutely yeah so if you want to be able to uh to get the article um go and join us on patreon

01:13:27.840 also what you'll get is with our friday special you get ad free you get ad free pretty much all

01:13:33.360 the content you get ad free but you get early access and ad free for the friday special as

01:13:38.960 soon as the first episode of a friday special season drops there's usually you know eight

01:13:44.000 nine ten eleven twelve episodes in a season and as soon as the very first one drops they're all

01:13:49.360 available for our patreon members and we've got a new season uh coming out with the friday special

01:13:54.320 very soon the very beginning of october uh just a little over a month away uh we've got a new

01:13:59.600 season with me and andrew isker um on everybody's favorite topic uh israel so we'll see i will see

01:14:07.040 how people respond to that so but anyways uh join us to get early access to the friday special join

01:14:12.560 us on patreon to get the articles that wes and michael are writing every week for the wednesday

01:14:16.800 day live stream, all you have to do is go to patreon.com forward slash right response

01:14:21.920 ministries, patreon.com forward slash right response ministries.

01:14:26.980 And also, again, you've got like three or four days for Christ is King, How to Defeat

01:14:31.900 Trash World for that conference, April 3rd, 4th, and 5th, and that's right response conference.

01:14:38.080 Instead of ministries, it's right response conference.com to get the early bird rate.

01:14:46.800 We'll be right back.

The NXR Podcast - August 28, 2024

THE LIVESTREAM - Make Seminaries Great Again

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