The NXR Podcast - THE LIVESTREAM - Men, Don’t Hate Your Sons

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00:00:16.280 You and I both know that this ministry is willing to talk about things that most ministries aren't.

00:00:21.860 We need this content for the glory of God to reach more people's ears.

00:00:26.800 Are you a young white man who just can't seem to get a stable job that will afford a home,

00:00:34.680 a family, and modest lifestyle? Well, have no fear. Panda Express is hiring assistant managers 0.51

00:00:40.440 for $70,000 a year. Or you could work at Chipotle stuffing burritos and making $100,000 in just a

00:00:48.380 few years. Now, it seems silly, but this is real advice being offered by conservative,

00:00:54.060 and I'm putting conservative in quotation marks, think tank journalists and pundits.

00:00:59.780 If after all, they managed to make their own big break a decade or two ago,

00:01:05.520 then there's no reason that you can't put on a suit and a tie and walk into a job interview

00:01:12.820 and be offered a great job by simply having a solid handshake and a smile.

00:01:21.680 Now, I'm being a little bit tongue-in-cheek, but in biblical terms, it's important to recognize

00:01:26.120 that this process is called exasperating your sons.

00:01:30.900 Real wages are the lowest that they've ever been today.

00:01:34.240 Housing is flat-out unaffordable. 0.91

00:01:36.020 And all this while 94% of new jobs added to the S&P 100 companies are going to people

00:01:42.900 of color who are a significant minority in the U.S.

00:01:47.500 Advice that really did work for the prior generation just doesn't get you as far anymore.

00:01:53.420 It's harder than ever to provide, save, and build up an inheritance.

00:01:58.400 And for us to actually give helpful, loving advice,

00:02:01.740 we have to be honest about the challenges that young men are facing today.

00:02:06.360 This episode is brought to you by our premier sponsors, Armored Republic and Reese Fund,

00:02:12.200 as well as our Patreon members and faithful donors.

00:02:14.980 You can join our Patreon by going to patreon.com forward slash Right Response Ministries,

00:02:21.480 or you can donate at rightresponseministries.com forward slash donate.

00:02:26.980 In this episode, we'll also be joined by the one and only Oren McIntyre to address and discuss this very important topic.

00:02:36.260 Tune in now.

00:02:44.980 You've listened to all these people, and so what have you learned?

00:02:47.780 The bad news is that people feel like they've done absolutely everything right,

00:02:53.580 and their lives are trapped.

00:02:56.800 They, you know, young people say, look, okay, I went through, I got an education,

00:03:02.660 I work nonstop, and I have made the calculation that there is no mathematical path for me to own a house.

00:03:10.700 It's just not possible.

00:03:12.040 In Toronto here, for example, if you take the average income and the average house price, it would take use 29 years to save up for a down payment for a down payment, not to pay it off, forget paying it off. 0.99

00:03:26.020 And so if you're a young woman who's got a biological clock, obviously, we'll do the math. 0.94

00:03:30.400 You're going to be in your 50s before you can afford the average house. 1.00

00:03:34.480 All right, guys, thanks for joining us today.

00:03:36.900 uh if you're wondering what was going on during that cold open uh we had written it out and so

00:03:42.640 i was doing my best to read but over uh the screen where it was written there was another screen

00:03:48.740 covering up a good 30 of the words so i couldn't read it and then some of you might be wondering i

00:03:54.800 saw in the live chat somebody said hey somebody's walking in front of the camera well that was

00:03:58.780 michael god bless him he did the right thing i was just sitting here like well you're in for the

00:04:02.300 long haul hope it goes well michael was trying to run over to nathan to say hey um basically the

00:04:08.100 entire teleprompter is covered by another screen and joel is literally just from memory guessing

00:04:13.280 right now which is what i was doing so to read a three-minute script um this is the last one i've

00:04:18.400 written in a while too today i was like we got a longer one it was a three-minute script and wes

00:04:22.800 even talked to me before he wrote it and he said do you think you can uh read a three-minute script

00:04:26.740 without messing up and i should have said i didn't i said yes what i should have said is

00:04:31.260 yes, if I can see it, if it's actually on the screen, which it was not, unfortunately.

00:04:36.640 But we got through it. I think you get the main point. So Oren McIntyre, he's going to be joining

00:04:41.080 us at 3.30 Central Time, 3.30 PM Central Time. So we've got about 25 minutes or so to outline

00:04:49.040 this episode for you. And basically, the big idea of what I was saying is that right now,

00:04:55.560 it is not a great time to be a young man especially to be a young white man well i'm not a i'm not

00:05:02.260 white are you discluding me yes um not everybody's included in everything um if you are a young black

00:05:09.480 man uh the last eight years were easier for you that's just the truth and on average not every

00:05:16.760 single person comparatively we're speaking of dynamics right so if you were it's like well i

00:05:21.620 was a young black man, but I'm a quadriplegic. Okay, well, that's different. Okay, there, of

00:05:25.860 course, there are exceptions. But in generalities in group dynamics, from about 2015, and you could

00:05:33.320 argue earlier, but definitely 2015, all the way up until 2024. Yes, if you were a young white man,

00:05:41.340 you had added, added disadvantages that a person of color did not have. And so we are talking to

00:05:49.380 everybody, but we are especially talking to young, white, heterosexual Christian men who have, 0.52

00:05:56.440 our culture has essentially said, our economy, our culture, our society, and sadly, even many

00:06:01.180 of their churches has essentially said that we don't care about you, and there is nothing for

00:06:08.700 you. And a lot of the advice and counsel that you'll get from older men, should you seek out

00:06:13.440 godly, mature older men, especially older Christian men, in order to give counsel and

00:06:19.640 advice, of course. But you have to recognize that a lot of the advice they're giving is not

00:06:24.600 malicious necessarily. We're not saying that it's on purpose or intentional, but it is still just

00:06:30.160 a reality that the advice that a boomer is giving, if he's giving the kind of advice of practical

00:06:37.160 things for earning an income and getting married, these kinds of things that worked for him,

00:06:41.220 well the reality is those things don't work anymore when a boomer says well all you need to

00:06:45.740 you know dress not for the job you have but for the job that you want you know buy you know clean

00:06:51.480 yourself up you know why don't you shave your beard get a haircut you know put on a nice suit

00:06:56.240 and a tie go in with a firm handshake and smile and that look him in the eye look him in the eye

00:07:01.800 young man and stop being so lazy you know and stop whining um yeah that's great if you're a young 0.84

00:07:08.200 black man let's just be honest and if you're a young black man who can wear glasses that's even 0.98

00:07:14.960 better i mean they did an entire episode on curb your enthusiasm right one of the black characters 0.81

00:07:21.000 throughout the entire episode he didn't need glasses but he got a fake pair non-prescription

00:07:26.000 glasses and he put them on and they were mocking but there's some truth in it they were mocking 0.53

00:07:29.960 the fact that you know he all of a sudden he was well received by the the upper echelon of white

00:07:35.800 society, a bunch of boomers that had money and affluence and influence and jobs. And they were

00:07:41.840 laughing at it, but they were laughing at it for a reason. It was comedy. It's fiction, a fictional

00:07:46.720 story, curb your enthusiasm. But they made a joke about it for a reason, for a reason. It wasn't

00:07:53.920 completely random. And so, yeah, the game has changed. The world has changed. And there are

00:08:00.220 certain things that used to work that don't work anymore. Right. When a boomer says, well, you think

00:08:05.460 interest rates are bad today. I remember in the seventies, you know, we had, uh, our home had an

00:08:09.900 18, 17, 18% interest rate. Yeah. Your, your home, uh, that, that the principal was $48,000.

00:08:19.020 I'll take that. Something like, uh, like four times your median average wage. So in real terms,

00:08:24.860 cause you would say like, well, it was less the cost of the home, but then the wages were less

00:08:29.080 too. But think in terms, not just of raw, like 50,000, a hundred thousand, but think in terms

00:08:33.340 of how many times my yearly income does it take? And we'll show the graph in a minute, but like

00:08:38.000 a tiny amount compared to what you would need now. Because they might say, well, but we only

00:08:42.560 made 30 grand a year. Okay. But your house was 48,000. So you're talking about in that kind of

00:08:48.720 scenario, your house is barely over 50% one year's income. Whereas now people are looking at $400,000

00:08:56.520 houses, and their income is $70,000 or $80,000. So wages have maybe a little over doubled,

00:09:04.600 but the housing prices have multiplied by 10x, right? This is just basic math. And crying about

00:09:13.520 it, of course, crying about it doesn't solve the problem. Nobody's saying that it does.

00:09:18.220 But there's something to be said. I mean, even pastorally or as a father, when you're counseling

00:09:23.100 one of your sons or daughters, as a pastor who's counseling one of his parishioners,

00:09:29.140 one of the things that you want to do if they say, hey, I've been devastated by this situation

00:09:37.640 or this person wronged me, you want to determine whether or not, first and foremost, it's actually

00:09:44.100 true. But if it's true, then you can actually sympathize with someone and say, oh my goodness,

00:09:51.380 I am so sorry that that happened.

00:09:54.160 So you are now, because of this, because we live in a world that's tarnished by sin,

00:09:59.360 you are objectively at an extreme disadvantage.

00:10:02.620 I'm so sorry, brother.

00:10:03.720 I'm so sorry, sister.

00:10:05.960 And so let's talk about, because you're behind the eight ball, and that's actually not your

00:10:10.860 fault.

00:10:11.400 We can acknowledge that and say, I'm so sorry that that's the case.

00:10:15.440 And so now what can we do?

00:10:16.840 um but but a lot of guys today a lot of in the saturday it'd be one thing if it was a bunch of

00:10:22.060 progressive leftists right it'd be one thing if it was aoc you know and she was the only you know

00:10:26.140 nancy pelosi and joe biden they're the only ones you know who are saying this but you're talking

00:10:31.280 about conservatives guys who over the last decade not just conservatives but guys who over the last

00:10:37.540 decade were supposedly leading the charge against dei and these kinds of things and and these are

00:10:43.860 the guys who are giving the advice and saying, Hey, you know what, things aren't so bad, you can

00:10:48.600 go and stuff burritos at Chipotle, right? Things aren't so bad. Just go work in fast food, you

00:10:54.900 know, whereas it's like, but can't you acknowledge that 15 minutes ago, literally 15 minutes ago,

00:11:01.880 the advice was, well, how, who do you think you are thinking that you're going to be able to make

00:11:07.460 a livable wage doing fast food, you get you need to apply yourself and get a real job fast food is

00:11:13.380 supposed to be a job that's temporary just for teenagers and then literally it's like like by

00:11:18.660 the week by the week so the same guys who are saying well um that's ridiculous that you would

00:11:24.220 expect you know to to make um a a real wage and fast food and then they turn around a week later

00:11:30.580 and they're like um all all the uh software engineering jobs and and all the manufacturing

00:11:36.620 jobs are going to a bunch of Vivek Ramaswamy's friends in India with the H-1B visas. Well,

00:11:45.660 whoever told you that you would be able to have a middle management job in an industry that you

00:11:52.480 actually were attracted to. Everybody knows for the last 15 minutes, everybody knows that

00:11:58.920 if you want to feed a family, you do it at Chipotle. So it's just, you can't win.

00:12:06.620 You can't win.

00:12:07.760 And one of the things that we're trying to do as a ministry is give real counsel from

00:12:13.920 the Word of God, spiritual counsel, but also real, practical, tangible counsel for young

00:12:18.780 men how to live in the world today.

00:12:20.760 But we try to preface it because a lot of guys aren't doing this.

00:12:25.020 A lot of conservatives aren't doing it.

00:12:26.260 A lot of Christian pastors aren't doing this.

00:12:28.060 We try to preface it by first acknowledging, yeah, the deck is absolutely rigged against

00:12:35.240 you.

00:12:35.460 it is rigged against you um this this is not fair your parents lived in a golden age a golden age

00:12:43.240 this is one of the first generations one of the first generations in american history um where

00:12:49.920 in terms of economically and real purchasing power of wages um the children the following generation

00:12:58.080 will make far less than the preceding generation that's so we're living in real terms in real

00:13:03.800 terms in terms of purchasing power, what it can buy, but what it can buy. So the purchasing power

00:13:08.520 of your wages today, if you're a young man in your twenties and thirties, and even early forties,

00:13:13.840 the purchasing power has, has radically decreased from what your parents at that same stage of life

00:13:20.300 were able to purchase with their wages. And this is really one of the first times,

00:13:25.000 at least in American history, I can't speak to every place at every time since the beginning

00:13:29.980 of human history. But for American history, what we've seen is basically generation after

00:13:35.240 generation after generation from our founding, things improved and improved and improved. And

00:13:40.280 that just became assumed. It just became assumed that things will always get better. But we are

00:13:45.020 living in a historic moment, at least for American history. This is a historic moment where things

00:13:50.800 are actually going down. Life expectancy going down. IQ going down. Real purchasing power of

00:13:57.380 wages, going down. The only things that are going up is criminals, crime, immigration. 1.00

00:14:05.120 Women use of antidepressants. 1.00

00:14:06.860 Yeah, female use of antidepressants, food dye, you know, in the grocery store. Those are the, 0.99

00:14:11.960 you know, cancer. So, you know, I don't want to be completely negative. There are some things that

00:14:15.940 are going up, some numbers, you know, cancer numbers, they're up, you know. But all the good

00:14:21.000 things that you would like to see go up are going down. And that's the world you're living in. That's

00:14:26.280 what you're up against, and those are the things that we want to address today. Real quick, we've

00:14:30.780 got a super chat. I appreciate this. It's from Michael. He says, I'm very thankful that you're

00:14:35.500 speaking up for me, a young white man like me, and sharing that we actually are discriminated

00:14:42.440 against in America today, especially over the last decade, rather than just bashing me. Michael,

00:14:48.340 you're welcome. I don't normally do this, and I don't want to be cliche,

00:14:53.840 um but but i i mean this genuinely from the bottom of my heart uh let's just pray for michael

00:15:00.520 and everybody else that he represents you're talking about millions of young men uh father

00:15:04.140 god we just uh we ask for your mercy um our country and our our fathers and mothers um sold

00:15:11.540 out their children and grandchildren's future for the gdp to go up and to uh and to be able to pat 0.71

00:15:18.040 themselves on the back and uh and console themselves by telling them that that they're

00:15:22.420 not racist. And so in the name of not being racist and in the name of their 401k going up

00:15:30.480 because of companies, not the American people, but corporations doing better because the bottom line

00:15:36.440 went lower because jobs were outsourced for cheap labor. For those things, the prior generation of

00:15:44.740 boomers was willing to sell the future of their own children and grandchildren. Incredibly,

00:15:49.140 incredibly wicked thing. Much like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a bowl of soup.

00:15:54.980 The boomers have sold the birthrights, not even of themselves. In many ways, it's even more wicked 0.90

00:15:59.520 than Esau. They didn't sell their own birthright. They sold the birthright of their own children

00:16:03.740 and grandchildren. And they did it for something comparable to soup. They did it for GDP must go up

00:16:09.880 and foreigners must come in so that I can tell myself I'm not a racist. What a wicked, wicked 0.98

00:16:15.560 thing. Father, we pray for repentance for those boomers who are still alive, that they would 1.00

00:16:20.880 acknowledge that sin, a real sin, repent of it and find mercy and forgiveness and grace 0.99

00:16:25.740 in Jesus Christ. And we pray for their children and children's children, for these upcoming

00:16:33.300 generations, for millennials, for Zoomers. Lord, we pray just for your mercy and we pray for 1.00

00:16:39.740 incredible wisdom, God. We pray that you would make us as innocent as doves, that we wouldn't

00:16:46.000 compromise or take cheap shots in order to get ahead, but that we would be innocent as doves, 1.00

00:16:53.320 but that we would be as shrewd as vipers, that you would give to us a Christian spirit of shrewdness

00:16:59.780 and strategy, that we would be wise and cunning and find new ways to succeed in a world that has

00:17:07.580 been stacked against us we pray this on behalf of every young man who listens to this podcast and

00:17:12.960 we pray it in the name of jesus amen all right west this is uh your episode go ahead and yeah

00:17:18.180 lead us off let's actually start at the the end what michael was saying so when we say well a lot

00:17:24.100 of new jobs they've been going to people of color let me show you this analysis so this is from

00:17:28.460 bloomberg news bloomberg went ahead and they dived into the data just following the year after george

00:17:33.800 floyd so you think june 2020 george floyd and all of the uh all the black lives matter the

00:17:39.220 protests the rallies the commitments right the uh the kind of i promise i'm not racist uh statements

00:17:44.680 from ceos and they promised we're going to hire more people people of color we're going to hire

00:17:49.220 more people of color for ceos we're going to put them in middle of management we're going to put

00:17:52.440 them in leadership we're going to do it and so they went ahead and they actually did it this

00:17:57.620 was kind of bloomberg was was shocked to really show it so of in the s&p 100 so top 100 companies

00:18:02.820 I think by market cap, the U.S. Stock Exchange, it's an ETF.

00:18:06.700 So out of these 100 companies in that year, they added 320,000 jobs, 320,000 jobs, which

00:18:13.560 is a decent amount of jobs.

00:18:15.000 And these are four companies that have great pension plans, great benefits, great health

00:18:18.720 insurance, top tier companies.

00:18:20.540 When you think of, you know, your dad worked at Dell back in the day, think of these type

00:18:24.260 of companies.

00:18:24.800 So they added 320,000 jobs.

00:18:27.580 94 of these jobs went to people of color six percent of them went to white men to whites

00:18:37.120 so out of these top companies out of 320 000 jobs that have been added only six percent went to

00:18:44.240 basically the stock the founders of this nation you think about the founding fathers when they

00:18:48.940 said for our uh for us and our posterity for for our people the founders would be just rolling over

00:18:56.460 in their graves they would be enraged yes you did what to our children and all of these dots right

00:19:02.460 here like just think about the u.s so it's about 55 to 60 percent white or so and then a groupings

00:19:07.340 of different people say say it landed on along those lines right 15 to 20 percent black if you're

00:19:13.220 50 60 percent white those those fallings out you wouldn't see you wouldn't look at that and say

00:19:18.700 unequal weights and measures were definitely utilized here but you look at the dots there

00:19:23.520 And every one of those dots represents, to a high degree, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 generations of Americans, young men that were looking for a good job.

00:19:35.020 And once you get a job, what typically happens when a man is stable, affords a home, he lives somewhere for a while, so he's able to date and then marry, is children.

00:19:43.560 You can think of many of those dots as representing young men who entered the workforce, 2021, 2022, 2023,

00:19:49.840 and they had to settle for something much less

00:19:52.720 to make much less money, to move around more.

00:19:55.400 So because they were in a job

00:19:56.300 that was just sales and unstable

00:19:57.540 and then they had to move here,

00:19:58.820 it's not affording them to be able

00:20:00.100 to move out of their parents' home.

00:20:01.600 That's what we're looking at here.

00:20:03.060 I'm gonna go to home prices.

00:20:05.080 You mentioned it, Joel.

00:20:06.280 This is a chart here of home prices

00:20:08.120 in terms of the ratio of median income,

00:20:12.040 median household income ratio

00:20:13.420 to the actual cost of the home.

00:20:15.740 So think about if you made $50,000 a year,

00:20:17.840 the average home was $200,000. That would be a ratio of four. Through the 70s, through the 80s,

00:20:24.880 through the 90s, you're coming out of kind of the Great Depression and World War II there on the

00:20:28.440 left side. Through them, you had a ratio that at times was below, but roughly around four. So again,

00:20:33.760 that means you make $50,000 a year annually. Your home, $200,000. You have the bubble,

00:20:40.940 that's the housing bubble. And now we've surpassed that to where the ratio is closer to seven. So now

00:20:46.460 you probably the average median rate income, it's not 50,000 anymore, it's 100,000. But did that

00:20:52.160 house stay 200,000? Or did maybe the average even just go up to 400,000? It's now seven times. So

00:21:00.460 say you make 100,000, your dad made 50,000, bought a $200,000 home. That was the average. That's what

00:21:06.140 he was looking at. That was the type of salary he was getting. That was the cost of the home.

00:21:10.120 Say now you make 100,000 and your dad's proud of you. Good job, son. You went out and you got a

00:21:14.160 six-figure salary well that hundred thousand dollar salary the ratio to the median home cost

00:21:19.780 is now a seven hundred thousand dollar home interest taxes all those things they're exponentially

00:21:27.000 higher and in terms of purchasing power the home that portion of your budget is going to be twice

00:21:33.120 yes so if it was a third of your parents uh budget and well now your cash poor because it's

00:21:37.720 going to be two-thirds it's going to be the vast majority of your entire paycheck is going towards

00:21:43.760 housing yep exactly and um and this is not the first time that uh like the economy is like well

00:21:50.920 you may not care about the economy but the economy cares about you uh the great depression all of

00:21:55.160 these things clearly the economy matters but but there's a lot of guys who just they dug in and

00:21:59.460 they did it but i would say the one thing about it when i listened to stories it was more my great

00:22:03.500 grandparents about the great depression and stuff at the end of the day they had kids and a wife

00:22:09.000 and family. They lived around. They're kind of extended family. There's a bit of a sense of all

00:22:13.660 in it together. But as we know from the statistics, millennials and marriage not going very well. The

00:22:18.900 average age of marriage is increasing. And if you're a young man, we don't talk about this a 0.82

00:22:23.300 lot, probably because we're all married, but your options out there for dating, and let's just even 0.96

00:22:29.200 say just a non-Christian. Say you're non-Christian, but you're a general right-wing man. Well, what

00:22:33.980 are your options? Well, according to the statistics, about 15 to 20% of women out there would be on

00:22:39.980 hormonal birth control. Hormonal birth control changes the profile of the type of man she's

00:22:44.940 attracted to. Women on hormonal birth control are more tuned towards men that are more feminine in

00:22:51.620 their nature and the disposition. Someday we'll maybe do a whole episode on this. Women are also 0.94

00:22:56.320 in increasing rates, and I have some charts here on the screen, they're going on antidepressants,

00:23:01.080 SSRIs, between hormonal birth control, SSRIs, increased promiscuity. This one that you'll see

00:23:07.700 on your screen, they're more liberal than ever. Young men, they're actually turning right wing,

00:23:12.120 generally speaking, that's where the trend is going. But young women are more liberal than 0.97

00:23:15.880 ever. So in terms of home, in terms of a job, and just in terms of dating and finding a woman to 1.00

00:23:22.120 start a family with. Young men across the board, certainly Christian men, and certainly a vast

00:23:27.220 majority of that white men, they have it so much harder. Like this right here is antidepressant

00:23:33.340 use, just accelerating, almost doubling in women from 20 to 24 years old from since 1995 to 2010.

00:23:41.740 Birth control, hormonal birth control, antidepressants, liberal in their political

00:23:47.460 views. And you just, you have to be honest with it. This stuff is real. These are young men

00:23:53.540 meeting real women, trying to purchase real homes, trying to find real jobs, and they're just

00:23:58.440 not able to. Michael, you had some stuff on purchasing power as well that I think is helpful 0.91

00:24:02.660 to flesh out. So some of the numbers can get a little bit, you know, they're numbers, right?

00:24:08.800 But one of the things I did some research on was comparing adjusted average salary. And I excluded

00:24:17.880 things like just working at a car wash or something like this. This would be like your first job at

00:24:22.660 an actual company, like your first career job, but just starting off, okay? The kind of job that

00:24:28.560 maybe a 22-year-old guy is going to be looking for. So adjusting that number between 1920 to now

00:24:35.060 to match real-time dollars. So adjusting for inflation to now, and then comparing that

00:24:43.480 purchasing power or how much it would take for one of your years of salary to pay for some of

00:24:50.340 the expenses so in 1920 it would take that young man with that entry-level but career job entry-level

00:24:58.560 job it would take him four of his annual salaries to pay off the home that he and his wife just

00:25:06.120 purchased now it would take 10 years 10 annual salaries to pay off the average starter home

00:25:14.020 that's his whole salary that's yeah that's assuming he were to put all of his salary

00:25:17.560 But so if he's making $40,000, $160,000 in adjusted modern dollars, so more than double, two and a half times increase.

00:25:29.320 Things like an average car, it would have taken a third of his annual salary to pay off a car.

00:25:38.340 Now it takes 0.75 years to pay off a car.

00:25:42.520 So it's more than doubled.

00:25:44.620 Just the amount of dollars that he's earning, two and a half times higher to pay off a home or longer, two times longer to pay a car.

00:25:53.860 College affordability is crazy.

00:25:55.480 It used to take 0.1 years of that 19-20 salary.

00:25:59.500 Now it takes 0.375 of his yearly salary to pay off that college.

00:26:05.520 And what's really interesting is some of these numbers, they fluctuated some, but they kind of went pretty steadily.

00:26:11.380 I looked at every 20-year increment, 20s, 40s, 60s, 80s, 2000s, and 2020s. And it was really

00:26:17.880 only in the 2000s and now the 2020s especially that that purchasing power of the wage that he

00:26:25.220 was making compared to how long it would take him, same amount of stuff to buy, has just increased

00:26:30.900 astronomically. It's crazy. So I'm sure, as we mentioned in the cold open, conservatives have

00:26:37.280 some great thoughts on this, some good solutions, and they're recognizing the dynamics. This is the

00:26:42.300 post that set off a firestorm. And for the record, when we get into social media and stuff, for one,

00:26:47.400 we're highlighting people that have significant influence and voices, right? I don't think you're

00:26:51.320 ever going to see anyone up here with just 15 followers. We're talking about people that command

00:26:55.320 a lot of influence in the type of circles that you, the listener, would be in. And so this is

00:27:00.380 Chris Ruffo, who, for the record, as you were alluding to earlier, he's done great work on DEI,

00:27:04.640 on exposing practices, especially at public universities,

00:27:08.280 so universities funded by your tax dollars.

00:27:10.740 But someone said this.

00:27:11.620 They essentially said, I'm looking around.

00:27:15.000 They're like, I've made it, I've done well,

00:27:17.040 but I'm looking around and I'm seeing layoffs

00:27:19.760 and everything, everything everywhere.

00:27:22.500 So this is a pedantic killjoy said,

00:27:24.740 people keep telling me the economy is strong,

00:27:27.140 but every time I look at the news,

00:27:28.180 I see layoffs and businesses closing.

00:27:30.740 Personally, I'm doing just fine,

00:27:32.320 but I can see with my own eyes that something is wrong.

00:27:34.640 not sure what to believe here did you say i'm doing just fine i'm mewing just fine i'm doing

00:27:41.760 just fine i'm i'm doing just fine chris ruffo he's here to help he said this is basically he's

00:27:48.320 referring to the unemployment numbers full employment so the unemployment rate is about

00:27:52.960 4.1 percent which for the record a lot of men they've actually there's a new category which

00:27:57.960 would be they've left the workforce so when we say unemployment there's 4.1 percent people

00:28:01.980 of working force that's unemployed that's actually there are millions and millions of men that they

00:28:07.340 just they've stopped looking for jobs they've either moved back in with their family they're

00:28:10.680 on some type of disability and so it's not capturing those it's simply saying of those

00:28:14.200 that are looking for work and we know we're still looking for work only four percent of them are

00:28:18.080 unemployed so chris ruffo said this is basically full employment the panda express near my house

00:28:22.640 is offering 70k a year plus benefits for the assistant manager you can make 100k a year working

00:28:27.680 at chipotle for a few years and working up to the store manager i have a couple other examples but

00:28:34.400 this is the one that really got people because in all of what we just said home prices cost of

00:28:41.560 living food inflation cars the advice is well go uh go serve orange chicken for 70k a year and that

00:28:51.300 should be so young man you're concerned about a family you're concerned about a stable uh like a

00:28:56.060 stable home life you're concerned about an inheritance right so you're saving not just

00:28:59.340 to be able to retire hopefully at some point but an inheritance and uh and the advice is is there's

00:29:04.800 tons of places where you can work for a job that's that's not going to take you very far

00:29:08.980 and you should be happy about it there's an abundance out there what's the big fuss essentially

00:29:14.840 so that gives you guys the lay of the land that sets the framework for this episode we're going

00:29:20.120 to go to our first commercial break and then we'll come back with orrin mcintyre our sponsor

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00:31:03.300 All right, we are back and we should have Oren McIntyre ready to join the show.

00:31:07.560 there he is orin thanks for coming on hey guys how's it going it's going it is going so we've

00:31:13.940 been watching you a little bit on x you're coming to our conference by the way i got to plug that

00:31:17.860 real quick so april 3rd 4th and 5th the year of our lord 2025 it's a thursday friday saturday we've

00:31:23.500 got steve days we've got orin mcintyre he'll be there we've got calvin robinson we've got

00:31:27.760 all the ogden boys from new christened press we've got andrew isker and cj angle and dr

00:31:33.180 Stephen Wolf, and a whole host of others. So we're really excited. John Harris, Aidy Robles,

00:31:38.760 really excited about this conference. The Christian prince himself, Dusty Devers,

00:31:42.820 the senator, Dusty Devers, forgive me. So we're excited about that conference. But I've been

00:31:47.500 following you for a while, Oren, and we connected and you were gracious enough to come to the

00:31:51.200 conference. You had me on your show. I've had you a couple of times, but I've been watching you over

00:31:55.200 the last, well, really since Christmas, since the whole H-1B and Vivek, who came out of hibernation

00:32:02.700 today on X. God bless him. He's ready now that Trump's going to be inaugurated to show his face

00:32:09.400 again and hope that we all forgot that he's for India first instead of America first. But you've

00:32:17.140 been doing a great job. And so can you just kind of, I don't know, way into the discussion? We

00:32:21.280 already showed the tweet from Chris Ruffo. And what do you think's going on here and how do we

00:32:26.140 fix it i think that there's kind of this default mode uh that most conservatives fall into which

00:32:34.280 is everybody needs some tough love right you gotta you gotta tell the kids to get out there

00:32:38.680 get off the video games you know touch some grass uh go go work hard and that'll just fix everything

00:32:45.440 right and obviously one-on-one like clean up your room work hard like that's good advice if if i

00:32:53.420 have a friend and he's down on his luck he can't pay his bills the kids aren't getting food on

00:32:58.660 their plate and there's a job at a panda express and the question is hey or would you tell that

00:33:04.040 guy to go work at panda express answers yeah of course like yes like you shouldn't be drawing 0.97

00:33:09.940 welfare you shouldn't be sitting on your butt playing a video game while your kids are starving 0.85

00:33:14.100 or you can't you know pay your bills like this is not beneath you you should do this work however 0.97

00:33:19.320 However, when your job is literally to shape public policy, when you are a leader of men, you can't just tell everybody, oh, well, I mean, the system's kind of screwed, but just work hard.

00:33:31.160 Like, that doesn't work.

00:33:32.080 When you spend literally years saying, hey, Bidenomics is failing, inflation is out of control, illegal immigration is destroying opportunity and social fabric, the ability to form families, get married is under assault.

00:33:46.080 you know we are uncovering these DEI programs that specifically target men and specifically 0.53

00:33:51.400 target white men and they're not allowed to go to college and get ahead and get hired when you

00:33:56.620 literally make a career pointing all of this stuff out you can't just be like oh well Trump got

00:34:02.360 elected uh just go work hard I guess like no you you need a plan you have to show people that you

00:34:07.700 care and you notice the problems and yes they need to work hard they can't just wallow in self-pity

00:34:12.860 but you are taking action to change the system that you know and have talked about is failing

00:34:19.880 agreed yeah so um i mean i what do you think it is i mean i feel like immigration is

00:34:29.700 a major factor i feel like we're finally at the place where you know illegal immigration of course

00:34:34.600 that's off the table but it seems like as conservatives um and even some christians

00:34:39.580 Christians, sadly, per usual, are not really leading the charge, but instead kind of,

00:34:46.040 you know, would it Ben Shapiro say, okay, all right, well, you know, it's safe to say it now, 0.98

00:34:50.060 you know. But it does seem like the conversation of legal, not illegal, but legal immigration is

00:34:56.840 finally on the table where we're like, yeah, maybe not a ton of that either. That seems a

00:35:03.540 little bit hopeful. What do you think? Yeah, no, it's definitely a good sign. I want people to

00:35:08.400 understand that, yes, it was annoying to have Elon and Vivek come out on Christmas Day and say,

00:35:14.340 well, we kind of need infinite foreigners to take the jobs that you really want to do. Yeah, 0.76

00:35:19.140 before we were saying, you know, immigrants do jobs that Americans don't want to do. But now 1.00

00:35:23.480 we're specifically bringing them in to do jobs you absolutely want to do and are going to college

00:35:28.180 to do. Like, that's very frustrating. However, the very fact that the conversation has shifted

00:35:33.820 away from open borders and infinite illegal immigration instead to how much legal immigration

00:35:40.660 should we have is itself a great sign that is momentum in our direction that is a victory

00:35:45.980 yes we still have to fight these fights yes we still have to hash out the coalition as it was

00:35:51.540 created to get trump elected these are all just parts of the political process you you get a

00:35:57.040 coalition together for politics and then once the victory comes you got to have the internal you

00:36:02.260 kind of struggle session. Unfortunately, it would be great if that wasn't the way that politics

00:36:06.740 worked, but it just is. And so no one should be defeated. No one should be down on themselves

00:36:12.340 because this conversation is taking place. You're only having this conversation because of a

00:36:17.020 victory. You just can't stop after the victory. That's what conservatives always do. You win the

00:36:21.860 election and then they just stop paying attention to what's going on. And what I'm hoping and what

00:36:26.180 many people are hoping is that we can keep the attention focus and we can actually continue that

00:36:30.920 victory, not just get Trump across the finish line, but actually get the things that were

00:36:34.820 promised that people who support Trump really want. Right. Yeah, I agree. There's a comment

00:36:41.040 real quick I want to read because I think it's insightful. It's from Glorious and Free Ministries

00:36:44.500 says it'll be nice when evangelical boomers prioritize telling third worlders in Africa

00:36:51.100 and elsewhere who can't properly feed their own 10 children to pull themselves up by their bootstraps

00:36:57.400 instead of uh telling that to their own struggling children here in america um and now i i personally

00:37:05.500 you know this is my position i would advocate for neither but point taken i think it's a good point

00:37:10.520 uh do you think orin that it's a bit ironic perchance even we could use a word as strong

00:37:17.180 as hypocritical that um that you never see that type of rhetoric levied against the third world

00:37:23.380 You never see, right, like we would never look at Uganda and say, well, you know, they're just lazy, you know, maybe if they just worked a little bit harder, you know, and why aren't they wearing a suit and a tie when they go to the job interview, you know, and firm handshake and look the employer in the eyes, you know, with a warm smile, you know, worked for me, why doesn't it work for them? 0.54

00:37:43.780 um and like what i'm saying is we would immediately recognize well wait a second there's actually such 0.76

00:37:49.740 a thing in nations as um corrupt elites who actually make things impossible so it's it's not

00:37:56.980 fair uh entirely like yeah you still have to you know work with with the the hand that you've been

00:38:02.780 dealt and so we can talk about that all day long but but before you talk about how to um how to

00:38:07.860 dig yourself out of a hole when you're starting at a disadvantage it's first very helpful um to

00:38:13.620 recognize that the disadvantage actually exists, that you actually have a disadvantage, and then

00:38:17.660 begin talking about solutions. But my point is, it seems as though Americans, and especially

00:38:23.340 evangelicals, and especially boomers, but that the older generation of Christians here in America

00:38:30.080 are, it's like nobody has to sit them down and show them a chart or graphs or statistics or even

00:38:37.140 or even history books or or um or the the politics of uganda or the politics of the sudan they

00:38:43.420 instinctively understand um that it's the elite's fault in these other nations and that the people

00:38:50.420 there that the actual citizens are being oppressed and that the poverty is induced right now like i

00:38:56.800 don't know any christian boomer any christian over the age of you know 65 who's saying man

00:39:01.660 the north koreans gosh they're lazy you know like um they would say no they're poor but the the

00:39:08.860 poverty can be tracked back to sin poverty is always linked to sin but it's not always linked 0.99

00:39:13.800 to your sin right it's not always um i'm poor and it's my sin it can sometimes be and often

00:39:20.820 throughout world history um it can be i'm poor and it's your sin it's somebody else who's actually

00:39:25.600 made me impoverished and and it seems like americans and christian americans and older

00:39:31.200 Americans instinctively understand this with every nation except for our own. So in this house,

00:39:37.100 I got this from you, Warren, in this house, we believe in elite theory. Can you talk a little

00:39:41.300 bit about that for our listeners? Sure, absolutely. And one of the things that I focus on a lot in my

00:39:46.380 work, my writing, and my show is a school of political theory called Italian elite theory.

00:39:51.820 And really, it comes from Machiavelli and moves through guys like Vilfredo Pareto and Gaetano

00:39:58.600 Mosca and Robert Michels. And ultimately what these guys were trying to highlight is that

00:40:04.780 every civilization is ultimately influenced and run by its elite. And that's not to say that the

00:40:12.160 elite aren't influenced by the common people and religion and culture and everything else,

00:40:18.520 but that the tastemakers and the movers of the levers of power ultimately do a lot more to kind

00:40:24.640 of inform the citizenry and create their situations then vice versa and so if you want to understand

00:40:30.920 the mechanics of a civil civilization its culture the way things are moving the best thing to do is

00:40:37.000 to focus on its elites now what a lot of people worry about what a lot of the kind of the mainstream

00:40:43.400 conservative commentators that were kind of digging into this whereas that ultimately this

00:40:47.960 creates a kind of helplessness right that this creates a victim mentality and of course we see

00:40:53.740 this on the left. We see this with Marxist-based class analysis, right? Well, the elites control

00:40:58.380 everything. There's nothing we can do. They're all corrupt. We got to get rid of them. And in

00:41:02.180 the meantime, well, just, you know, be lazy. You can blame everything on them. We absolutely want

00:41:07.540 to avoid that. They are right to say that that is not the mentality that you should have. We have

00:41:12.160 to cultivate virtue in the population. Young men need the virtue that comes with hard work and

00:41:18.540 ambition. But what is the real disconnect here, I think, is understanding the well-being of the

00:41:25.340 people. Ultimately, right, we want men to work hard, but we want them to work hard because it's

00:41:30.700 meaningful, because it's connecting to something that matters. Telling someone to put 80 hours

00:41:35.320 into Panda Express or Chipotle every week just makes them a cog in the machine. They have no

00:41:41.380 agency. They are simply under a bunch of managers and bureaucrats. Now, telling a man to work 80

00:41:47.040 hours opening his own restaurant giving him the ability to build something that he can pass on to

00:41:53.060 his children that is a radically different thing but there was just this huge disconnect i think

00:41:59.240 from a lot of people who are worried that all these young zuber men are just going to sit around and

00:42:04.040 you know they're going to blame society and of course that does exist i'm not pretending that

00:42:08.280 there aren't you know lazy or entitled people that you know young people don't need to learn

00:42:12.640 the value of work but ultimately you build the right to tell a man to give him that advice to

00:42:19.220 give him that tough love speech because you've shown that you care about him as elite you have

00:42:24.120 a responsibility to first show that you care about and you are working towards the betterment of

00:42:30.240 someone and then you can look in the eye and say and by the way now that i've made this easier for

00:42:35.000 you you need to get out there and get this done but you have to take the action first right well

00:42:40.540 said uh west michael any thoughts uh all right i was interested in so when we talk about the 0.81

00:42:46.780 difficulties young men face it's kind of like well you know these gangs of asian men in britain are

00:42:51.580 doing terrible things like well no it's a very specific subgroup within this and so we talk

00:42:56.780 about young men it is specifically white men and you could blame it on dei so dei hiring practices

00:43:03.340 the preference for people of color in in hiring and promoting and hiring them above uh white men 0.63

00:43:09.020 But I feel like, to me at least, that seems almost like a symptom of some type of underlying root cause. 0.87

00:43:14.440 I don't know if I could go as far back as the Civil Rights Act, kind of removing the freedom of association. 0.95

00:43:19.280 Where would you say the train came off the tracks as far as these big companies really got it in their veins, got it in their mindset to really set to the side, push aside and bring in, I mean, certainly immigrants for sure. 0.54

00:43:34.480 but just generally a preference for people of color at the expense of white European Christian

00:43:41.120 men. Like you said, this goes back pretty far, and the Civil Rights Act is pretty central to this.

00:43:47.360 A lot of people think of the Civil Rights Act in its first iteration, right, where it specifically

00:43:52.440 says that this can't be used to discriminate against anyone or elevate anyone based on their

00:43:58.940 race, including white people. However, what we've seen over time is as civil rights law has

00:44:04.500 developed, as the different layers of law have been added, court decisions and these kind of

00:44:09.160 things, this is altered radically. Specifically, the most pernicious one is the ruling in Griggs

00:44:14.580 versus Duke Power, which created the idea of disparate impact. And this is a policy that says

00:44:21.480 anything that affects any racial group disproportionately is automatically prima

00:44:27.580 facie evidence of discrimination you don't need to intentionally discriminate if there are any

00:44:33.560 differences then you are discriminating no matter what and this leads to modern decisions for

00:44:38.480 instance uh the biden administration uh sued their department of justice sued a gas station company

00:44:45.160 and actually won the judgment because they were using criminal background checks and

00:44:49.740 disproportionately minorities are more represented in criminal background checks so fewer minorities

00:44:55.000 were getting hired. That meant that checking criminal backgrounds was evidence of racism and

00:45:00.740 a violation of the Civil Rights Act. Now, this court ruling is so bad that it was basically

00:45:06.580 repealed through court law, but then it was reintroduced and codified into the 1991 Civil

00:45:13.640 Rights Act. So a lot of people hear the Civil Rights Act and they think, oh, well, this just

00:45:17.540 makes everybody equal. But no, it literally makes it illegal for you to hire more white people if 0.77

00:45:23.860 they happen to not have a criminal record. And this radiates out into basically every interaction

00:45:29.980 in our society. Yeah, I think one of the things that I realized a few years back was, you know,

00:45:36.600 because at first it was like, well, let's just, you know, let's just not be woke, right? Let's

00:45:40.480 be anti-woke. And, you know, even before that, you know, like 2017, 18, 19, preceding 2020 and,

00:45:49.460 you know, the summer of love, mostly peaceful, you know, riots and things like that. In the

00:45:55.540 church world, the conversation was all about social justice. And I was a part of a network

00:46:00.740 at that time called Acts 29 Network that very much was beating the social justice drum. And

00:46:07.200 I remember, you know, being bothered by it and starting to speak out against it. But at the time,

00:46:12.960 Like most of the rhetoric, most of the defense against social justice in the church, a social justice gospel was, you know, we would say, well, that's a blurring of the gospel, right?

00:46:27.940 Because the gospel is, it's grace and it's not works.

00:46:30.840 And you're making, this is a works gospel because you're adding to the gospel.

00:46:34.460 You're saying that, you know, you're blurring the lines and you're not just saying that we should do good things, you know, as a result, as an evidence of being saved by grace.

00:46:44.200 But you're actually saying that we should do the gospel and the gospel is not something we do.

00:46:48.160 It's just something we believe.

00:46:49.180 So this is a works gospel where it's faith in Jesus plus being, you know, a social justice advocate and working towards, you know, protecting the poor from being oppressed or whatever.

00:46:59.480 And so that was like the line of attack from conservative Christians, you know, and I was one of them. And I picked up that rhetoric probably 2017, 18, 19. It wasn't until about 2020 that I started to realize, well, you know, and then it became woke, you know, social justice, what wasn't, you know, woke became the thing.

00:47:17.740 So we need to be not woke. But it wasn't until, you know, probably like 2020 that I started to

00:47:24.340 realize, wait a second, like the problem here, it's not technically, it's not justice. Justice

00:47:30.920 isn't a problem. Justice is a good thing. And the problem isn't even just wokeness, you know,

00:47:37.140 that became a stand-in for social justice in regards to minority people. The problem is that

00:47:44.160 it's all lies. Like what we need is truth. There is actually a theological problem in my view of

00:47:55.080 blending salvation by grace alone and doing certain works in order to merit the favor and

00:48:01.880 love of God. So there is a theological problem there. But the best of the social justice guys

00:48:07.460 were careful enough theologically not to blur those lines. And so they would say, no, no, no,

00:48:11.120 you know, we're not saying you do it to be saved, but we're saying that if you're saved,

00:48:15.000 that salvation will be evidenced by doing good works. And there's no better work than to let

00:48:20.220 justice roll down like mighty rivers. And what that means, you know, is basically everything

00:48:26.280 that, you know, Martin Luther King preached and you need to be doing that. And so it wasn't,

00:48:30.960 you know, for about three years from 2017 leading up to 2020, I, you know, I was hitting it from

00:48:36.900 this angle of, well, don't blend social justice with the gospel, or don't be a racist towards

00:48:44.260 black people. Just don't be a racist at all. Be colorblind. Don't see color at all. Race is 0.78

00:48:50.320 insignificant. It's not even a thing. It's just different shades of melanin, and there's just 1.00

00:48:55.440 one race, the human race, and all those kinds of things I picked up. And then it just finally hit

00:49:00.940 me and I realized that the problem with the left is that it's not true. So the problem of saying

00:49:07.480 that, you know, all these people of color are discriminated, one of the biggest problems with

00:49:11.340 that is not because it focuses us on social justice or it takes us away from the gospel

00:49:16.680 or this, that, and the other. The problem is it's fundamentally a lie. At the time that we were

00:49:23.920 being told that people of color were being discriminated against, white people on the

00:49:30.700 books were being discriminated against. And so now I'm of the frame of mind that, no,

00:49:39.480 we do need to talk about justice. We just need to talk about it truthfully. We need to talk about

00:49:44.200 justice as it pertains to those who really are experiencing injustice. And we need to talk about

00:49:51.460 fixing those things, especially when a country is hating its own native citizens.

00:49:57.060 But that kind of rhetoric, which is basically, you correct me if I'm wrong, Orrin, but

00:50:02.120 from doing some of the reading, that kind of rhetoric seems to be the obvious no-duh from

00:50:09.800 any writer who existed before 1945. But basically, what I've been told is that if you think the same

00:50:19.320 way that every single person ever thought in the history of the world until about 70, 80 years ago,

00:50:26.400 then you're woke. You're woke right. And there's a wonderful, brilliant, staunch conservative

00:50:33.800 thinker, James Lindsay, who talks about this. What do you think about his conception of the

00:50:40.180 woke right? And what do you think about what I'm talking about in terms of, no, we really do need

00:50:45.020 to fight injustice but it needs to be actual injustice you know in the 1930s if you had come

00:50:53.500 to me and said hey uh there is a actual racism like there are racist laws on the books i would

00:50:59.860 have agreed with you and if you had said hey we need to change these laws so they don't discriminate

00:51:04.020 against you know uh black people in america i'd be like well yes of course that's wrong um if you

00:51:10.440 come to me in 2020 and tell me that that's the case then that's just obviously not true like

00:51:14.940 It's just factually inaccurate that there are laws put in place that, you know, are on the books that actively discriminate against black Americans.

00:51:24.920 However, if you told me in the 1930s that we needed to change something because white people were to be discriminated against, I would say, well, that doesn't seem right.

00:51:32.780 It doesn't seem like those laws are on the books. 0.59

00:51:34.760 However, if in 2020 you told me that, well, I can literally point to affirmative action.

00:51:40.980 I can literally point to Greggs versus Duke Power.

00:51:43.900 These things exist. They are in the law. I don't understand why we needed to get rid of laws that specifically were biased against black Americans, but we don't need to get rid of laws that are specifically biased today against white Americans, mostly, and also Asian Americans, sometimes other groups as well.

00:52:02.640 It just doesn't make any sense to me. And the problem was not that you needed to have justice. As you point out, the problem was the definition of justice, the fact that you were bending over backwards to create problems in the law that simply did not exist.

00:52:17.020 I'm not asking for any special treatment for white people. I don't think we need white identity politics, but I think it's very stupid to pretend that noticing a literal law on the books that is actively limiting the ability of white people and most often white men to advance in society. 0.93

00:52:36.880 I don't think there's a problem with that. That doesn't turn you into a victim. I don't think you should build an entire BLM style movement around this. We don't need BLM or DEI for white people, which has now become the catchphrase. But when you're calling just having an immigration system or getting rid of active racist laws against white people, DEI for white people, now you're just being dishonest. Like now you are very obviously playing for your own advantage, not actually playing by the rules. 0.96

00:53:06.880 Yeah, well said. And for anybody who's listening, it's funny because I see you, you know, on social media, you know, particularly X and a lot of times guys like James Lindsay, who I was, you know, using facetiously just a moment ago, you know, make you out to be like some kind of far right extremist.

00:53:25.160 And I'm listening to everything you said, and I think it's well said, and I agree with it 90%.

00:53:29.660 And I'm thinking, Orrin McIntyre, one of my favorite, you know, centrist, just a moderate, you know, moderate conservative.

00:53:37.120 Because I'm thinking, theoretically, in terms of arguments for permissibility.

00:53:41.000 So I'm not saying what's ideal and what we should do tomorrow, you know, or any of that.

00:53:44.120 But if we're just talking about, you know, permissibility, and we're talking about, you know, theoretically and political philosophy and me as a pastor, you know, blending some of that with my theological questions.

00:53:55.160 convictions, then there's nothing wrong. There's nothing inherently immoral about a nation

00:53:59.840 actually preferring, in our case, because America is unique, it wouldn't necessarily be white people

00:54:05.920 in an exclusive sense. But if a nation prioritizes one faith, for instance, like I would advocate as

00:54:13.160 a Christian nationalist, I would say, I'm happy to wear the moniker. I totally understand why some

00:54:16.980 people don't. And I would be a part of the larger conversation on the team of, you know, new

00:54:20.880 dissonant right, or the new Christian right, or whatever you want to call it, very much for that

00:54:26.780 team and on that team. But I also like the moniker Christian nationalism. And so for me, as a proud

00:54:32.620 Christian nationalist, I would say, yeah, in terms of permissibility, there would be nothing wrong 0.79

00:54:38.320 with America, which is a Christian nation. I would argue we're currently in apostasy, but in terms of 0.88

00:54:44.000 its founding, its origin, all those kinds of things, there's nothing wrong with a Christian

00:54:48.880 nation, prioritizing in terms of faith, religion, saying, yeah, we're going to be, because America

00:54:55.220 is also unique in the sense of its tolerance of those who have different views. And so I would

00:55:00.140 like for America to still be America. It's not Sharia law, and that's not even compatible with 0.98

00:55:05.400 Christian theological convictions, but also not America and its culture and its founding and the

00:55:11.780 people that we are. So, okay, so America will probably, if I was king for a day, America would

00:55:17.320 always have, I think, some added measure of patience and tolerance and compassion in a way

00:55:24.380 that many other parts of the world don't have when it comes to different religions. But blasphemy 0.94

00:55:30.060 would not be tolerated in the public square. You wouldn't have the police rounding up people who

00:55:34.420 are Muslims or a different faith in their private homes. But in the public square, there wouldn't

00:55:39.860 be blasphemy. There'd be things like that. I'm okay with blue laws, again, in terms of

00:55:44.080 permissibility and conviction, those kinds of things. But there would be an exalting,

00:55:48.260 so it's not necessarily putting everyone else out, but the esteeming of the Christian faith,

00:55:54.020 right? Your holidays, national parades or ceremonies, they would be distinctly Christian,

00:56:00.960 right? When you swear into office, it's a Christian Bible, the Quran, sorry, you can 1.00

00:56:05.380 privately read it in your home, but that doesn't work in a court of law. It needs to be the Bible,

00:56:09.260 the word of God, the triune God. So there's nothing wrong in terms of permissibility on 0.89

00:56:13.580 the theological side of actually preferring the Christian faith, the faith of that particular

00:56:19.320 nation. On the social side, there seems to me, in terms of arguments of permissibility,

00:56:25.160 not saying we have to do it tomorrow, or that we'll even ever do it, but it doesn't seem as

00:56:29.780 though there's anything inherently immoral about preferring also a particular people, 0.62

00:56:34.700 in our case with America being unique, it wasn't all white, it was predominantly white, but it

00:56:38.880 wasn't all white, but I would just say heritage Americans, to say, yeah, we're going, and so what

00:56:43.200 does that mean it means um that america would prefer those who can track their ancestry um

00:56:50.260 to this this piece of land this country their fathers fought in our wars um and and they can

00:56:56.760 do so more than just 15 minutes ago they didn't just arrive on an h-1b visa to take your job

00:57:03.520 at at the you know the software company um you know yesterday but instead there's actually

00:57:10.340 there is actually an esteeming and a preference given to Christian faith over other faiths and

00:57:17.200 American heritage people over other people. And that doesn't mean that we have to be rude or

00:57:23.140 anything like that. But it does mean that there's actually something to, there's something to be

00:57:29.880 said for, this is my place. These are my people. This is, these are my traditions. This is my

00:57:35.220 religion. Um, this is my country. And, and I think about that, you know, and the more I think about

00:57:41.200 it, um, you know, cause people will say, well, um, if you want those good jobs and you just,

00:57:46.840 you gotta, you gotta, um, you gotta compete, you know, you gotta be better. And, and I just,

00:57:51.240 I think I would disagree on two levels. One, I would say, um, I don't think that Americans are

00:57:55.560 fundamentally lazy, you know, because they watch too much, you know, boy meets world. I think I,

00:57:59.380 I take great offense at that. Actually. Um, I think that the rest of the world, wherever we

00:58:04.440 innovation. It's usually copying the innovation that happened in America. Americans are the most

00:58:10.260 innovative, you know, the most ingenuity, like Americans have done incredible things. So one,

00:58:16.480 I just, I disagree with that sentiment that we've got to, you know, all the geniuses, the next Tesla

00:58:21.760 is going to be found in India, you know, and not America. I just statistically, I don't think

00:58:27.880 that's true. And then secondly, I also think, but wait a second, it's your country. And if America

00:58:35.680 first means America as a sports team beats in the global Olympics of widget factories, if that's

00:58:43.320 what it means to be America first, then I would just say, then I'm perfectly content with America

00:58:48.460 coming in second place or third place or 50th place if it means, if the price to be paid for 0.61

00:58:54.040 America first, is that America as a jersey, as a sports jersey, wins the Super Bowl of widget

00:59:01.300 making, but American people are unemployed and devastated. I feel like the leaders of a country,

00:59:09.620 their first priority has to be to their people above their country, you know, making trades with

00:59:17.280 other teams, you know, with India or whatever, just to make sure that they win the Super Bowl of

00:59:21.900 of who can colonize mars the fastest any thoughts on that yeah there's this guy samuel huntington

00:59:29.040 and he's famous for his class of civilizations thesis but he was a professor at harvard he's a

00:59:34.740 center-left guy actually but he wrote this great book called who are we and really huntington was

00:59:40.020 looking after the cold war and said hey we had this weird moment where the entire world was

00:59:45.000 basically set in this bifurcated scenario you were either communist or you were a capitalist you

00:59:50.700 either United States or Soviet Union. And that kind of superseded the normal national identity.

00:59:56.660 And now that that is gone, now that we have seen the end of the Cold War, we're going to start

01:00:01.280 moving back towards traditional forms of identity. And that's going to become more and more

01:00:06.520 important. Every nation is going to be defined by its more classic features and no longer by

01:00:10.480 kind of this rough ideology of capitalism versus communism. And he said, we in the United States

01:00:17.160 need to grapple with this question. Who are we? If we are going to return to a more traditional

01:00:22.060 understanding of peoplehood, of nationhood, then we can't keep this idea of just being an abstract

01:00:27.800 principle. We have to be grounded in what nations have been grounded in for pretty much all of

01:00:32.120 history. And again, this guy is a center-left guy. He's not some right-wing bomb thrower. But in the

01:00:37.500 book, he basically comes to the conclusion that America is an Anglo-Protestant nation, that

01:00:42.260 everything about it all these principles that we love to talk about aren't just some abstract

01:00:47.480 gnostic thing floating around it's grounded in a particular people a particular religion a

01:00:53.220 particular tradition and heritage and understanding and of course being a man of the left he was not

01:00:57.840 looking for any kind of hardline identity of you know anglo-protestantism he said people can join

01:01:03.240 people must join they must assimilate but that is key they must assimilate they have to become

01:01:08.660 part of that process we can't just leave identity off the table identity will continue to exist

01:01:15.380 if you just leave it to the left then guess what happens they define it the same thing that

01:01:19.960 happened when we tried to push religion out oh we're going to be a neutral country when it comes

01:01:23.720 to religion well guess what we ended up with wokeness as the new religion because the left

01:01:27.820 dominated all of those quote-unquote neutral spaces the same thing is going to be true of

01:01:32.880 identity if you just abandon it as the right then guess who's going to control what the american

01:01:37.540 identity is it's going to be the left and i think having an anglo-protestant core identity is

01:01:43.440 critical again we are a nation that has always allowed people to join in that but we must make

01:01:48.660 it the priority it has to be something that binds us together and by the way preferring a particular

01:01:53.620 people is actually great for you it doesn't it's not just morally permissible spiritually

01:01:58.460 permissible it's actually achieves a lot of the goals that conservatives and libertarians want

01:02:03.200 to achieve because when you have a multicultural society you have conflicting worldviews of 0.70

01:02:08.080 conflicting moral visions and guess who can be the only person who can arbitrate that conflict 0.95

01:02:14.080 in every level from the personal to the political to the business interaction it's the government

01:02:19.520 yes the state has to get involved so when you prefer a specific way of doing things everyone

01:02:25.800 shares the same culture the same religion at least superficially at least as part of the culture

01:02:32.240 then the state doesn't have to involve itself in every interaction because there is a baseline

01:02:36.840 shared moral vision tradition understanding heritage that everyone can be a part of but

01:02:42.960 when you create a multicultural society you necessarily grow the government because it's

01:02:47.740 the only one that can dictate what's going to happen when all these other moral visions are

01:02:52.340 clashing well said we're going to go to our final commercial break of the day and then we'll come

01:02:58.180 back with Orin for our last segment. All right, the clock is running out. You need to go and

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01:05:11.820 and all of finance for Christendom. All right, we are back. I'm going to give it to Michael Belch.

01:05:18.940 He's going to ask some questions for Oren. Just one question. Oren, thanks for joining the show

01:05:22.980 today. As you said earlier, the fact that we are having the discussion about immigration and even

01:05:30.020 whether we ought to have some limits on our immigration policy is, in a sense, a victory.

01:05:35.800 The conversation is happening.

01:05:37.420 I'm curious about your assessment of the coalition that is under Trump.

01:05:43.900 I mean, I hate to call it the conservative party anymore because it really isn't.

01:05:47.000 It really is the party of the dissidents who have all aligned under Trump's umbrella.

01:05:51.840 And the quote, or not the quote, the tweet that we had from Christopher Ruffo at the

01:05:57.120 beginning of the episode, which I'm sure you saw where he said there's the $70,000 job at Panda

01:06:03.660 Express. Go take that. I'm curious if that indicates something about the new dissident

01:06:12.480 conservatist movement where the goal, conservatism has always been kind of equated with fiscal

01:06:19.380 responsibility or at least fiscal conservatism. And is the fact that Rufo would think, oh,

01:06:25.580 there's a $70,000 job. It's just cash. As opposed to kind of what you were talking about with the

01:06:31.020 nobility of your purpose, building something, having kind of a more sincere ownership and

01:06:39.200 attachment to providing a service that's really worthwhile that you can pass on to your children.

01:06:45.160 Is there anything that is being talked about, do you think, in the new Trump conservative

01:06:51.760 coalition about really the spirit of what it means to be a worker as opposed to a cog.

01:06:57.980 Is that is that head conversation happening at all?

01:07:00.640 Is it something that we should push for as dissident right members?

01:07:05.640 How do you think that that is going in the I guess the new dissident right?

01:07:12.700 I should say at the outset that I like Chris.

01:07:15.900 I've had him on the show.

01:07:17.040 I've talked to him.

01:07:17.800 He does great work.

01:07:18.960 So I want to make it clear that just because we were having a disagreement on this doesn't mean that he doesn't have a large body of work to stand on and people shouldn't respect what he's done that's good.

01:07:28.280 That said, there are a lot of kind of mechanical assumptions going into this.

01:07:33.040 I'm somebody who grew up on conservative talk radio, listening to Rush Limbaugh and Dennis Prager and all these guys.

01:07:38.840 And I learned a lot there and I had a lot of those kind of, you know, that mentality locked in for most of my life until just a few years ago.

01:07:47.100 So it takes a while to turn this ship. There's a lot of reflex. And I think that's what we saw in the last few days here online was kind of this conservative rhetoric reflex rather than thinking through the implications of kind of the ideas that have been onboarded.

01:08:02.860 The really odd thing is if you listen to J.D. Vance, he gave an interview in which he specifically addressed this topic and pointed out that kind of the workforce participation numbers were fake.

01:08:13.620 And ultimately, it was important to give to prefer Americans over any foreigner and make sure that we're giving meaningful work to these guys. 0.96

01:08:22.100 It's kind of weird that all these people who have been rah, rah, rah for J.D. Vance over the last few years, and rightly so. 1.00

01:08:27.500 I think Vance is awesome. But the fact that they kind of just blew past this point that he himself has been making is very strange. Vance has also said explicitly, America is a nation. It is a people. It's not just an office park or an economic zone.

01:08:42.440 again this is the rhetoric at the core of the trump uh you know a movement at this point jd

01:08:48.140 vance is riding shotgun next to a president who's over 80 years old he's right next to power and

01:08:55.500 you know the fact that he holds this belief i think ultimately underlines that this current

01:09:00.280 is running very strong through kind of i guess what would people call the new right i really

01:09:04.520 think it's the old right it's just the actual right coming back um but but that's what we need

01:09:09.320 And hopefully that continues. I went to the National Conservatism Conference. J.D. Vance spoke there before he was declared as the vice presidential nominee. And his ideas were very much alive in that room. There were others. Veck was also there. He started selling this idea of libertarian nationalism. And I knew right then that things were not going to go well.

01:09:33.120 that eventually we were going to get that knife in the back.

01:09:36.560 But to be clear, guys like Vance don't just have a seat at the table.

01:09:40.240 They are the guys at the head of the table.

01:09:42.600 And that's great news.

01:09:44.020 That is great news.

01:09:45.240 He's not riding shotgun, though.

01:09:46.700 He's riding shotgun to a guy from South Africa who's riding shotgun.

01:09:51.800 To be fair. 0.91

01:09:52.980 But no, you're right.

01:09:54.440 It's super hopeful.

01:09:55.520 And who knows?

01:09:56.080 I mean, do you think, I know it's way early to make a prediction here,

01:10:00.260 But what do you, I feel like the next four years are going to be largely positive at

01:10:05.860 minimum, I've heard you say, and others have said, and I agree, you know, four years to

01:10:09.300 build, you know, some breathing room, a pause.

01:10:12.200 So for conservatives to build, but I think that it's entirely possible that it could

01:10:16.160 be more than just a time to build, but there actually could be some serious achievements

01:10:20.900 that, you know, that the right is able to accomplish during this time.

01:10:24.900 And so assuming that things might be positive, then we might have more than four years.

01:10:29.220 Do you think that someone like J.D. Vance could be president?

01:10:33.220 Could we get 12 years?

01:10:34.560 Is that possible?

01:10:35.780 I think it's absolutely possible.

01:10:37.800 And again, it really all depends on what they do here.

01:10:41.020 The fact that we need things like voter security and ID and if we close the borders, like so many of these things will permanently shape the way that elections operate inside the United States.

01:10:52.960 They have a lot of opportunities to make significant changes that will not only better the lives of Americans, but will also ensure a more conservative or right wing kind of bent to elections and outcomes and all these other things.

01:11:05.600 The left is certainly think about this when they leave the border open for infinite new voters.

01:11:10.200 The right needs to start thinking the same way.

01:11:12.400 I do.

01:11:13.480 And I am hopeful ultimately that we will see some big gains.

01:11:17.340 But like you said, I always preach to people.

01:11:19.880 You've got to be active.

01:11:21.060 It's not enough to sit around and wait for Trump or Vance or whoever to make the big changes, even though I'm an elite theory guy.

01:11:26.860 I do think ultimately they will make the largest the largest contributions.

01:11:31.640 But I think what we really need on the right now is a farm team.

01:11:34.880 We need to be building talent. We need to be building an aristocracy.

01:11:39.300 We need to become worthy to be in those positions of power and make sure we have a deep bench.

01:11:44.780 So there's a guy behind Trump and behind J.D. Vance and behind the next guy who is very good and very conservative. We need to rise to raise up leaders across the country, locally, state level and at the national level.

01:11:59.140 And that has to be our priority, which is, again, why I think it's so important for conservative influencers and politicians and others to change their language on this kind of stuff.

01:12:09.360 You need to be encouraging young men.

01:12:11.580 You need to be giving them a future that is not just about, you know, securing a managerial job at some kind of, you know, fast food chain.

01:12:21.220 You need to give them a vision where they are meaningful contributors to their community and they have a path forward, not just to make money, but to make a difference.

01:12:30.880 The left sells young people on their ability to make a difference, not on their ability to make X amount of dollars.

01:12:39.160 And that is a huge motivator.

01:12:40.840 There is zero reason that the left should own that, especially when we're the side that can actually give people hope.

01:12:47.060 We can actually give them meaning.

01:12:48.320 we know what is good and true and beautiful. The left does not. We should be giving that to the

01:12:54.500 young. Well said. Two questions. One's a super fast one. Are you Southern Baptist? What is your?

01:13:02.260 Yep. Southern Baptist. Okay. And then two, that's what I thought. Number two,

01:13:06.660 if you said you were Catholic, I was going to be in huge trouble. At this point, you got one, 1.00

01:13:11.940 if you got one, you might as well invite them all. Anyways, I don't know if you've seen on

01:13:16.740 twitter but i've gotten uh some pushback from uh calvin robinson which i'm i'm happy that he's

01:13:21.320 going to be joining us uh much to the chagrin of uh many others uh second question is uh for these

01:13:27.560 next four years and and it seems like conservatives are going to have tailwinds for the first time

01:13:31.760 and in my lifetime maybe you know so uh not just like losing some of the headwinds but

01:13:36.960 maybe even some tailwinds you know wind in our sails um and i was thinking about that just in

01:13:41.900 regards to, you know, in multiple different arenas, but, but particularly just as it pertains

01:13:48.720 to social media. I, I mean, if you've got Zuckerberg coming out, you know, and, and saying,

01:13:56.180 yeah, I, you know, like, I'm going to, you know, basically just start copying what Elon has done

01:14:01.220 with X. And, you know, what, what I told you, everybody was like, I don't really think he's

01:14:06.040 repentant. I don't think he had a change of heart. And for me, I've, you know, I've said

01:14:09.320 multiple times publicly. Good. I actually prefer that. Not at an individual level. I do, as a

01:14:16.080 Christian, I do prefer that he actually would feel, you know, not just worldly sorrow, but like

01:14:21.940 2 Corinthians talks, you know, godly sorrow for the fact that he rigged an election. I mean,

01:14:27.360 he had a major hand in suppressing true stories that affected how people would vote and is

01:14:32.540 responsible for, to that end, he bears some responsibility, and I would argue a decent share

01:14:38.120 of 13, you know, US service members that died. Like all the bad decisions that were made under

01:14:42.880 the Biden administration and real human beings who lost their lives. Zuckerberg bears some

01:14:49.040 responsibility for that. He, I mean, he absolutely helped Biden get elected. And so because of that,

01:14:54.580 I do pray as a Christian that there would be godly sorrow for what I would consider actually

01:15:00.100 sin. I think it's actually sin. And that ultimately he would put his faith in Jesus

01:15:05.620 christ and be saved and not go to hell so i'm you know i'm hoping for that when i say good what i

01:15:10.000 mean is at a political level and more of a practical temporal level um i actually think

01:15:15.800 it's an even stronger win for the right uh when um when some of the most powerful not just your

01:15:23.600 you know you know 85 percent of the population your npcs you know who are doing you know she's

01:15:27.960 so brat you know and then all of a sudden you know and and the you know the robots power down

01:15:33.720 and the chip is removed and then replaced.

01:15:36.380 And now, you know, literally on a turn on a dime,

01:15:38.660 now they're doing this, you know,

01:15:39.920 like whether it's a NFL star or, you know, a musician

01:15:43.040 or just all the TikTok videos, you know,

01:15:45.640 from the sorority girls, like, I mean,

01:15:47.480 literally on the turn of a dime, 180 degree, 1.00

01:15:50.780 you know, that's your NPCs.

01:15:52.080 But when you have Zuckerberg,

01:15:53.120 when you have billionaires, you know,

01:15:54.880 at that level who arguably are not,

01:15:59.360 they don't have godly sorrow.

01:16:00.580 They don't feel actual remorse

01:16:02.580 and and don't see it as they did something evil but they're still going to say the line and change

01:16:07.860 the rhetoric and and change uh change course to me that's that's when you know you're winning

01:16:14.160 right you you know you're winning when um because for the longest time i would have said you know

01:16:19.140 like well it's just you know uh one one heart and one mind at a time you know it's it's um you know

01:16:24.440 facts don't care about your feelings and so i gotta you know uh bust out you know the the

01:16:28.540 spreadsheets and the charts, and I need to just simply persuade and convince people one heart at

01:16:33.080 a time, one mind at a time. And if we can get 50% of the population plus one, you know, then in our

01:16:38.720 sacred democracy, we can win elections and we can start to make change and blah, blah, blah, blah,

01:16:42.980 and now I look at it and I'm like, you actually don't have to persuade that many people. I would

01:16:47.540 actually, you don't even actually have to persuade most people or the majority of people.

01:16:52.220 You just have to win. Because if you win, they persuade themselves overnight, all of a sudden,

01:16:57.440 trump dance instead of she's so brat just like that just like you don't have to persuade 22

01:17:03.660 year old college girls you don't you just have to win and then they realize oh gosh i don't want

01:17:09.400 to be a loser you know and they switch teams it's and and zuckerberg i think has more in common even

01:17:15.120 though he's a billionaire with a 22 year old sorority girl um then you know an actual man 0.93

01:17:22.040 of history who shapes the world you know somebody who's actually a leader and so um all that being

01:17:27.920 said as it pertains to social media if zuckerberg if i'm right about that and it's not a genuine

01:17:33.240 change of heart it's just falling in line because there's a there's a new winner in town um if

01:17:40.780 that's true then then youtube might fall in line and and everything you know every everything might

01:17:48.820 fall in line and i and i i perceive at least the possibility of um of not just that the headwinds

01:17:56.600 finally lighten up for conservatives across the board but especially in the realm of social media

01:18:01.760 but that we actually experience some tailwinds like i'm i'm wondering and i'm curious if you

01:18:07.180 you know as a as a media you know voice yourself um i think the next four years like like we could

01:18:15.220 we could actually we could we could put some numbers on the board like we could like some

01:18:21.340 big things could happen without just having to take a tenth the size of your audience over on

01:18:26.860 rumble but that you could actually be on major platforms saying the things that we're saying

01:18:31.420 um and and maybe not be suppressed and maybe even a tailwind of an algorithm that favors you because

01:18:39.260 people want to hear it and are actually interested do you think that those kinds of things like am i

01:18:45.160 Do I need a couple of black pills maybe?

01:18:47.380 Like I've swallowed too many white pills.

01:18:48.980 Like what do you think?

01:18:49.660 Am I crazy? 0.98

01:18:50.920 I have a white pill and a black pill for you. 0.97

01:18:53.140 So a couple of black pills.

01:18:55.260 Okay.

01:18:55.820 I got one in each hand.

01:18:57.460 So the good news, the part that I agree with you is of course, as we said, we believe in

01:19:03.680 elite theory in this house.

01:19:04.620 And so we know that actually opinion does not determine power.

01:19:09.880 Power determines opinions.

01:19:11.900 And so when you win, then they like you.

01:19:14.660 uh that it really is that simple most people want status most people want to be cool and that's way

01:19:21.440 better than any argument in the marketplace of ideas you will ever ever make and so the most

01:19:26.760 important thing if you would like to change culture is to have the power the levers of which

01:19:31.860 it is manufactured most conservatives don't see that because they kind of think of popular

01:19:36.960 sovereignty it's democracy that's what makes these things happen but it's not it makes some

01:19:41.400 people angry, but that's just the truth. And so if you have that, then the changes you're talking

01:19:47.320 about are much easier, right? And that's how you know a real political win. A political win is not

01:19:52.060 something that changes one issue that you want, though that is good. It's a thing that makes the

01:19:57.620 next win easier. And once you win all the things, you can change whatever you want, because then

01:20:02.740 you don't have to worry about any of those encumbrances. So that is the good news. I do

01:20:08.100 think we have big wins i do think that we are seeing that shift that you're talking about the

01:20:12.340 vibe shift is coming a lot of elites who uh were you know kind of on that didn't care they weren't

01:20:17.440 committed one way or another they're on board they're going to change things they see the way

01:20:21.720 that things are blowing and they want to be on the winning team and that's going to cascade down

01:20:25.820 that preference cascade is going to move all the way down the socioeconomic ladder to the average

01:20:30.200 person a lot of people get angry about this oh you're just saying people are led and no i don't

01:20:35.760 hate people that's just how they work that's fine you don't need to judge people on that you don't

01:20:40.560 need to feel bad about it that's just yeah we're not speaking to people's innate dignity or value

01:20:45.260 so by making that statement we're not saying and therefore these people have no value and we don't

01:20:49.560 love them like no all all equal footing in the sight of god as as image bearers of the living god

01:20:55.220 they have an eternal soul uh jesus loves them we as fellow human beings love them as a neighbor

01:21:01.200 we also love them as christians and and and love their soul and want to see them born again if

01:21:05.240 they're not, or if they are, then they're our Christian brother or Christian sister. So we're

01:21:08.620 not speaking of innate dignity or value or anything like that. But what we're recognizing is that God,

01:21:13.540 it's God's world, right? God made the world and he made the rules by which his world functions and

01:21:19.040 operates. And one of the ways that God made the world, it's just a fact, is that the world is not

01:21:25.360 the egalitarian utopia, which I would argue would be a dystopia, that the left imagines. That's not

01:21:31.780 the way the world works the world god has has orchestrated into the world which he has made

01:21:35.980 inescapable hierarchy inescapable hierarchy um and and that's why um a nation should never have

01:21:44.140 women in combat um like like men and women are different um also at an individual level there

01:21:50.460 are people like the idea of uh well not equal outcomes you know but equal opportunity we don't

01:21:55.660 have equal i've never had the equal opportunity as michael jordan to play in the nba and i never

01:22:00.960 had it, never will have it. We don't have equal opportunities because God made a beautiful world

01:22:06.940 and a beautiful world is not a homogenous world. It's a world that actually has real

01:22:14.060 diversity, different people, different gifts, different skills, different intellect,

01:22:18.340 different abilities, all these different things. And so what we're talking about is,

01:22:24.460 the concept is this simple. If everyone's a leader, then there's no such thing as a leader.

01:22:29.180 all throughout human history there are leaders and and and a leader um what that signifies what

01:22:37.240 it assumes is that um there's you know for every leader there's um a a handful at least of followers

01:22:45.460 whether that's a one to ten ratio you know or a one to a hundred or but there's there's there's

01:22:50.840 leaders which assumes followers and i think it's not that much further to say probably more followers

01:22:56.920 than leaders, not just 50% are leaders and they're each leading one person, but it's probably less

01:23:02.780 than half of the population are leaders. So it's not some crazy statement for me to say the majority

01:23:09.120 of people are followers. That doesn't mean the majority of people are worthless or those followers

01:23:15.200 have less innate dignity than the leaders do in the sight of God, or that they should be treated

01:23:19.780 differently under the law or none of that. But it's just recognizing God made the world. He made

01:23:25.180 according to his rules, God, for whatever reason, has seen fit in his infinite wisdom to orchestrate

01:23:30.700 hierarchy and not a homogenous, you know, steamrolled population where everybody's

01:23:35.780 exactly the same. So some people are leaders, some people are followers, there's probably

01:23:39.960 less leaders and there are followers. And that's how change happens.

01:23:44.540 I still have my black pill for you, though. Oh, no. Oh, no. Go for it.

01:23:49.040 The black pill is that I think scale is a real factor. I talk about this in my book, The Total State. I think that some of the problems that we are facing are fundamentally ones that emerge once you hit a certain level of scale that requires managerial bureaucracies.

01:24:07.740 And the tendencies of those bureaucracies lead us to what we identify as very leftist outcomes. When we kind of pull away from that subsidiary, that locality, those natural hierarchies and them influencing people that they really know and care about directly, we start to take on leftist features.

01:24:26.980 And the more we scale up, the more we move towards those things.

01:24:30.440 And so while I think our elite are moving in the direction of conservatism and right-wing

01:24:35.180 leadership under Trump and Vance and others, and that's good, and I think they can accomplish

01:24:39.660 a lot, and we should be optimistic, I think there are systemic limitations to the ways

01:24:44.940 in which tech companies and larger corporations and just many social features can actively

01:24:50.660 work.

01:24:51.180 We see this in everything from churches to corporations to government.

01:24:55.200 The bigger it gets, often the more leftist gets. And that's not some kind of weird thing. That's not that it's an actual feature of the way that scale works. And so we're going to have to think about big questions of how we can address that if we still want our society to operate kind of the way it does.

01:25:12.260 We might have to fundamentally address some of those issues if we want to avoid a constant leftist slide, even if the elites are currently looking to the right for kind of their tastemaking.

01:25:21.740 yeah that's insightful um anything else you guys want to follow up with michael west don't think

01:25:30.380 so okay uh we have one final super chat i don't quite understand i think it's it's making a

01:25:37.120 statement and then asking for your thoughts i assume oran uh but this is jeff halfley um super

01:25:42.400 chat from jeff halfley we appreciate it he says in the past white workers and bosses had their

01:25:47.900 own political parties representing them. Now they are forced, uh, they have forced them into a

01:25:54.220 single party resulting in, um, Elon versus X type of things. What do you think? Does that make sense

01:26:02.740 to you, Warren? Do you have a thought? Uh, I mean, I can, I can take my best stab at I think

01:26:06.840 maybe what he's getting to there. Uh, yeah, you obviously, we don't have specific parties based

01:26:13.720 on race at this point, not explicitly, at least. Obviously, you're going to have a sorting feature

01:26:19.180 that moves majorities of one racial population or another into the parties. And that's often

01:26:24.660 how we see them characterized. But obviously, there's no official move of that. And I don't

01:26:29.380 think there should be. Again, I'm not looking for specific white identity politics. I don't

01:26:34.300 think that's a solution to America's problems overall. And I don't think morally it's advisable

01:26:39.920 either. That said, we should be comfortable inside the coalition on the right of recognizing

01:26:47.120 things that affect everyone in that coalition, including white workers. And if there is

01:26:52.560 something that is specifically targeting them, working against them, then that should be brought

01:26:58.420 up. And so when someone like Elon says, no, I'm going to bring in infinite migrants from India

01:27:03.220 or whatever to do these jobs because they do them cheaper, I'm not going to invest in any of the 0.95

01:27:08.000 people in the united states the majority of which barely still are white uh you know i'm going to

01:27:12.520 bring in people of another faith and another heritage and another race and i'm going to bring

01:27:17.040 them in and i'm going to favor them over you we should be able to address that it's okay to notice

01:27:21.340 that it's okay to say explicitly that's not good but i don't think that needs to result in some

01:27:26.580 kind of you know separate white solidarity uh party or movement i i really hope that people

01:27:33.020 can understand that we need to take care of this problem in the right way so we don't get a worse

01:27:38.660 problem later on if we are active and loud and and real about this problem today then we won't get

01:27:47.660 many of the you know more bombastic identity politics that people are more worried about and

01:27:52.940 this is where i think kind of the james lindsays of the world often fail they say any step in the

01:27:58.200 direction of recognizing a problem will automatically lead you to you know mid-century

01:28:03.280 german goose stepping i think that's exactly the wrong understanding if you take forceful action

01:28:09.520 now to solve a injustice now you can prevent the very thing you're worried about because you will

01:28:15.180 have good people in positions of leadership if you leave it on the table and you don't address it

01:28:20.400 people get more radical and they start listening to anyone who will talk about it including the

01:28:24.680 worst people in the room. This is the Andrew Tate effect, right? No one would talk about masculinity,

01:28:29.160 so you get Andrew Tate. And if no one will talk about the problems facing white working class

01:28:35.120 people, then you will get much worse than Andrew Tate for white people if you don't address them

01:28:41.120 legitimately in a moral way today. Right. I think you're absolutely right. Yeah, 0.94

01:28:45.320 we just did an episode on Andrew Tate, but we've been talking for a few years in regards to both

01:28:50.520 nationalism and also biblical patriarchy and you know i constantly tell the detractors um my my

01:28:56.900 detractors um you you think i'm extreme um you will be if if you silence every you know me and

01:29:05.180 everybody like me um in five years time maybe sooner two three years but definitely five to

01:29:11.660 ten years time you will be begging for the centrist moderate reasonable you know joel

01:29:18.300 weapons of the world um that if you if you hate men long enough um the way i see it is it's just

01:29:25.840 right now like in the theological world the big argument is about natural law it's just it's it's

01:29:32.240 a return to nature uh nature is healing as the kids say you know and so um it seems as though

01:29:37.940 you know like life finds a way you know a great prophet from jurassic park once said um and the

01:29:44.040 industrial age and all this technology and things like that, you know, you know, made it to where

01:29:48.780 instead of manual labor outside, you know, for 12 hours a day, you can work eight hours, you know,

01:29:52.760 in an office, pushing pencils and counting beings, you know, with HVAC. And, and so in that world,

01:29:58.660 like, you know, what women could work and, and maybe even, you know, provide for a family and

01:30:04.400 these kinds of things, but all of it was superficial. God designed the world in a, in a

01:30:08.700 particular way. And, and, and it seems as though the world, it's not even just an American thing,

01:30:14.900 because you see this happening in other countries as well, Argentina, and, you know, so it seems

01:30:18.820 like the world is reverting back to a natural order. And I think that means nationalism over

01:30:24.560 globalism. I think that means patriarchy over feminism. I think that means hierarchy over

01:30:30.080 egalitarianism. I think, you know, all these different things, the whole world seems to be

01:30:34.000 rubber band was stretched so far for so long, it's now snapping back. And if I was to boil it

01:30:40.460 down to a word, the common denominator across the board, whether it's nationalism, globalism,

01:30:45.260 patriarchy, feminism, you know, really to sum it up in a word, the word would be nature. The world

01:30:51.000 seems to be reverting back to nature. And so in that nature category, we just need to recognize

01:30:58.960 as Christians, Christians don't have a monopoly on natural things. I think Christians do it the

01:31:06.720 best. I'm a Christian. But if we study the world, there were plenty of places for centuries, if not

01:31:14.420 millennia, before the Christian gospel was ever introduced to them, before they converted to

01:31:19.520 Christianity, that had sustainable, with certain levels of atrocities, but sustainable, viable,

01:31:28.960 um ways of doing life um for centuries if not millennia so i think like the aztecs um 0.86

01:31:37.280 would have hated christ and also hated feminism is what i'm saying globalism like they were they

01:31:44.620 were they operated in god's natural world according to his natural his his rules um natural law and 0.99

01:31:52.020 and so what i'm saying is that all the guys who think you're crazy or in your extreme you're crazy 0.85

01:31:57.560 joel you're extreme um the way i see it is not whether but which the the rubber band is snapping 0.61

01:32:03.220 back to naturalism and and and that's that's nationalism that's patriarch all the things i've

01:32:09.120 already listed so then the question is not whether but which kinds of these things will we get i we're

01:32:14.880 going globalism is not viable so that that's that's going away you don't have an option there

01:32:19.900 that's going away that's not that's not a viable option it's proven not to be a viable option so

01:32:25.680 instead you're going to get nationalism the choice that we have right now before us if we can stop

01:32:31.540 you know running like chicken little the sky is falling the christian nationalist no you're going

01:32:35.940 to get nationalism you are going to wish and hope and beg 10 years from now that it had been christian 0.87

01:32:43.360 nationalism because the other choices are not gay homoglobalism that's not a choice it's not viable 0.87

01:32:49.820 So your alternatives, it's Christian nationalism or Islamic nationalism or just pagan kind of Darwinian naturalism. 0.83

01:32:58.440 There are forms of nationalism, whether it's the Vikings' form of nationalism, the Aztecs' form of nationalism, or the Muslims' form of nationalism.

01:33:06.140 But you're going to get nationalism.

01:33:08.460 I implore you to consider now, before the waiter just orders for you, while you're still holding the menu, before the dishes come,

01:33:17.640 um can i can i interest you in the special of the day it is called christian nationalism can i

01:33:22.820 interest you in biblical patriarchy instead of sharia patriarchy can i interest you in like

01:33:28.220 and i'm telling if if the james lindseys of the world win this argument and scare 0.70

01:33:35.660 successfully scare all the listeners to simply just double down on gay globalism 0.55

01:33:42.420 and egalitarianism for another 10 years um and andrew tate will be mild um with with what we'll

01:33:51.420 get so i that that's my final thought for the day any do you agree with that assessment or do you

01:33:56.820 think it's you think it's i'm sure you word it differently but no i i think that's exactly right

01:34:02.740 you know you you had in the you know the soviet union had you know this insane revolution it was

01:34:07.300 supposed to be universal it was supposed to be uh global and guess uh what it worked terribly

01:34:13.320 until uh finally a guy named stalin came in and he made it national and he basically converted

01:34:18.860 to fascism because that's what actually worked that's the way you could actually make that

01:34:22.260 system work you don't want to just sit around and wait until a guy like that shows up like

01:34:26.840 someone will eventually make the trains run on time but if you wait until the guy who makes the

01:34:31.940 trains run on time, shows up, history tells you bad things happen. Yes, identity is scary. Yes,

01:34:38.060 a lot of these questions are difficult, but the strong gods are coming back no matter what. We

01:34:42.460 will answer the question, who are we? So the best answer would be brothers in Christ.

01:34:49.000 Amen. Let me just read Jeff Halfley. He followed up and it's a really good distinction. So he left

01:34:53.200 two super chats. I just want to read them both. Jeff Halfley, there you go. That's how we get

01:34:57.020 super chats is if every time somebody says something, we intentionally misunderstand.

01:35:01.940 What? I can't read this. You're going to have to send, you know, seven more super chats to clarify.

01:35:07.560 So Jeff first asked, he just said, this is the first super chat. In the past, white workers and bosses had their own political parties. They weren't the same, but different. Representing them. Now they are forced into a single party resulting in these kind of Elon versus X, like an H1B type of things. What do you think?

01:35:23.720 And then he followed up and said, Democrats used to represent the workers, think unions, and Republicans used to represent bosses.

01:35:30.340 Demography has forced them into single parties resulting in friction.

01:35:35.000 And then finally followed it up, monocultural societies tend to divide along income and class.

01:35:40.880 Multicultural societies tend to divide along race and religion. 1.00

01:35:44.260 And I think that's 100% true. 1.00

01:35:46.420 Well said.

01:35:47.460 All right.

01:35:47.760 Well, that's it for us today.

01:35:49.040 I hope you've been blessed.

01:35:50.600 Where can people follow?

01:35:51.480 Yeah, where can people follow you on?

01:35:51.880 oh of course yeah i've got uh obviously the orrin mcintyre show it's on youtube it's on rumble

01:35:58.240 it's on odyssey it's on all your favorite podcast platforms and of course i'm over at blaze tv

01:36:02.900 and i'm on twitter and pretty much everything else at orrin mcintyre at orrin mcintyre great

01:36:08.220 and he will also be at our conference go to right response conference.com not right response

01:36:13.460 ministries right response conference.com register for the conference coming up christ is king

01:36:18.680 conference, April 3rd, 4th, and 5th.

01:36:20.720 Oren, thanks for coming on the show.

01:36:21.760 We appreciate it.

01:36:23.100 Thanks for having me.

01:36:24.280 All right.

01:36:24.900 Thanks.

The NXR Podcast - January 17, 2025

THE LIVESTREAM - Men, Don’t Hate Your Sons

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