The NXR Podcast - April 02, 2025


THE LIVESTREAM - Nations: Don’t Unite What God Divided


Episode Stats


Length

1 hour and 15 minutes

Words per minute

182.59856

Word count

13,777

Sentence count

266

Harmful content

Toxicity

3

sentences flagged

Hate speech

30

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

What if I told you that most modern Christians have completely missed one of God's most foundational purposes for mankind? not just missed it, but forgotten it, ignored it, and even denied it? We re not talking about something minor here, we re talking about why God created the world in the first place, what He expects humanity to do with it and, crucially, how He intends for us to do it.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
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00:00:30.000 What if I told you that most modern Christians have completely missed one of God's most foundational purposes for mankind?
00:00:38.220 Not just missed it, but forgotten it, ignored it, and in many cases, even denied it. 0.59
00:00:45.300 We're not talking about something minor here.
00:00:47.780 We're talking about why God created the world in the first place,
00:00:51.700 what He expects humanity to do with it, and, crucially, how He intends for us to do it.
00:00:59.200 Here's the claim.
00:01:00.000 God created nations, that is, distinct peoples in distinct lands, for the express purpose of
00:01:08.340 stewarding the earth. Nations are not an accident of history or a necessary evil in a fallen world.
00:01:17.160 They are the fundamental unit of dominion. And yet, most churches today act as if nations
00:01:24.240 are at best irrelevant, and at worst, idolatrous.
00:01:29.760 Creation care? That's the buzzword today,
00:01:32.900 but much of what goes under the banner is just baptized globalism and soft environmentalism.
00:01:40.160 It's stewardship without dominion, guilt without glory, conservation without cultivation.
00:01:48.280 It replaces national duty with personal shame and trades biblical fruitfulness for bureaucratic minimalism.
00:01:57.960 Meanwhile, we live in an age when our greatest national achievements no longer bring glory to God, but glory to man.
00:02:06.380 The Mayflower Compact was a covenant for Christ.
00:02:10.120 The moon landing was a monument to mankind.
00:02:13.700 Somewhere along the way, we stopped building towers for God and started building Babels for ourselves.
00:02:20.880 This episode is brought to you by our premier sponsors, Armored Republic and Reese Fund, as well as our Patreon members and our faithful donors.
00:02:31.180 You can join our Patreon by going to patreon.com forward slash Right Response Ministries.
00:02:38.500 Or you can donate by going to RightResponseMinistries.com forward slash donate.
00:02:46.180 In this episode, we walk through a chapter from Michael's new book,
00:02:51.120 a deep dive into the Noahic Covenant, the Dominion Mandate, and the Rise of Nations.
00:02:57.560 And then we bring it forward.
00:03:00.000 What does this mean for us today?
00:03:02.180 Why does it matter that God gave land to nations?
00:03:05.360 and how should faithful Christians think about patriotism,
00:03:09.880 dominion, and national identity in an age of globalist fog?
00:03:29.480 G.A., G.A., G.A.
00:03:31.680 Good afternoon.
00:03:32.680 Here we are.
00:03:33.040 this is wednesday uh the year of our lord april 2nd 2025 right so this is wednesday april 2nd
00:03:41.060 and it's the day before our conference and i have to just say this real quick okay so first and
00:03:44.860 foremost my bona fides here a little bit of a defense uh michael wrote that cold open and the
00:03:50.480 second that it came out of my mouth about the moon landing i was like we just lost half of our viewers
00:03:55.600 what is he thinking the marketing strategy this is this is terrible but see the proper response
00:04:02.060 to anybody who says the moon landing is a fake
00:04:04.000 is you have to out-conspiracy
00:04:05.900 the conspirators. So you have to say
00:04:08.080 you believe in the moon?
00:04:09.680 What a normie! I can't believe
00:04:12.000 it's like the moon landing never happened
00:04:14.180 it's like I can't believe you even believe the moon
00:04:16.060 exists. You're the normie here
00:04:17.800 you haven't gone deep enough down the rabbit hole
00:04:19.880 I will say this, for the moon
00:04:22.120 landing deniers
00:04:23.100 here's the real psyop
00:04:25.080 it's just one more bit of propaganda
00:04:28.120 to take away white men's achievement 0.76
00:04:29.920 that's my
00:04:30.920 that's my i mean what an incredible navigation yeah we landed no computers we landed on the moon
00:04:36.800 and and let's just let's just admit this was a time when uh that you know that houston control
00:04:42.940 center was uh very white and very male you know like the diversity was not our strength at that
00:04:48.760 time for better for worse there's this picture of a woman supposedly standing next to all this
00:04:53.280 code that she wrote and it's kind of touted as like oh look at how incredible on the backs of
00:04:58.000 this diverse coalition if you actually get into like the code she did write much of that was other
00:05:01.960 people a lot of code she wrote was like literally just visual interface so that's it's literally
00:05:06.200 like a psyop in a story like women and others we all got to it together making it look nice like
00:05:10.820 no men got us there right so anyways um moon landing is not the discussion for today we get
00:05:17.760 you know eventually i would actually appreciate you know us doing a full episode on that i think
00:05:22.100 that it would be fascinating if nothing else um but we're going to be talking about nations as
00:05:25.960 distinct people and the marks of a nation, what that means for us, the implications today.
00:05:31.300 And we're going to be talking about that from Michael's book. But because, again, because it is
00:05:34.940 April 2nd, Wednesday, it's the day before a conference. So I would be remiss if I did not
00:05:39.580 at least briefly mention at this point, I don't think anybody's saying like, hey, maybe I'll go
00:05:43.960 in person, right? If you're going in person, I think you've made the decision by now.
00:05:47.420 You're probably on the plane already.
00:05:48.500 Even the most procrastinating of procrastinators usually don't make a decision to go across the
00:05:54.860 country, you know, 24 hours in advance. So we'll just assume that that's settled. We have about
00:05:58.820 a thousand people who are coming in person. Praise God. We're excited about that. But it's not too
00:06:03.380 late for those who would like to watch the conference online. So we are actually live
00:06:07.880 streaming the entirety of the conference, all the seven main sessions, three different panels.
00:06:13.280 All of it will be available, a live stream, but it's exclusively available for our Patreon
00:06:18.680 members so you need to go to patreon.com forward slash right response ministries patreon.com
00:06:26.020 forward slash right response ministries and you have to sign up for the gold tier membership the
00:06:32.380 silver tier is going to provide early access and ad free you know for our friday special and our
00:06:37.420 live stream those things but the conference live stream is only available for our gold members it's
00:06:43.220 ten dollars a month and little life hack you could always cancel believe it or not you don't have to
00:06:48.040 have 47 subscriptions most of which you've forgotten about simultaneously i know it feels
00:06:53.440 impossible but it actually is possible possible to unsubscribe from something uh so you could
00:06:58.360 you know subscribe just for the next few days and get all the content and unsubscribe if you choose
00:07:03.600 not to because you want to support this ministry then we are deeply appreciative we thank you for
00:07:08.220 that um okay so there's all that uh last bit of business before we hop into the discussion michael
00:07:13.620 where can people get your book? Nathan, can you pan out and show? We've got Michael's book here
00:07:18.420 and the title, Michael? In defense of Christian nations. Show the print on that too. That's not
00:07:22.560 size 24, like the inside. This bad boy. Size 11. Let me just show you. This is the difference
00:07:29.140 between Michael Belich and Joel 11. I'll have to zoom in a bit. All right. So there's two books,
00:07:34.840 but it's really this view. Remember Toy Story 1 where they're like, oh, there's a little present
00:07:38.880 so like when you're looking like this it's like toy story oh sorry i'm in front of my mic when
00:07:45.760 you're looking like this it's like hey it's not so bad you know you got two books but when you
00:07:48.820 turn it to the side you see there's a little bit of girth on this one and not so much on this one
00:07:54.360 so this is a kind of like you and me this is 400 pages right uh yeah yeah so a 400 page treatment
00:08:01.880 of nations yeah and it's full of references too like this is not just michael's thoughts off the
00:08:07.520 top i think every single page that i saw as i was thumbing through it is like references and
00:08:11.700 citations and here's where i got this there are parts where there are lots and there are parts
00:08:15.240 where there are fewer and part of the reason is um one of the critiques that stephen wolf got when
00:08:20.460 he released his book was well you don't exegete any scripture here and he's like well i'm relying
00:08:26.160 on the reformers who did that so there's there is a large section of the book which is making
00:08:29.980 the biblical argument which is really just what does the bible say about this and even then it's
00:08:34.300 lot of verses yeah oh yeah where are the bible absolutely yeah and so to purchase it they go
00:08:39.460 well so first of all if you're coming to the conference it will be available there at the
00:08:42.940 table near the front the right response table at a slight discount for what's being offered on for
00:08:47.820 retail uh if not if you want to get your hands on the on a copy the amazon amazon is the best place
00:08:53.480 you can just search for the title in defense of christian nations by michael belch and we have a
00:08:58.800 kindle a soft cover and a hardcover versions awesome yeah the case for christian nationalism
00:09:05.860 deserves a hardcover can't believe they've never they never have done that yeah i feel like that's
00:09:11.140 kind of like a slap in the face it's a great deserves it yeah and for all of you um dust jacket
00:09:16.620 uh you know disrespecters out there uh the publishing i'm just using amazon publishing
00:09:23.600 they do not put dust jackets on it so okay if that matters to you then there you go there you go
00:09:28.600 yeah okay well go ahead and kick us off excellent so i'm really happy to jump into this topic today
00:09:34.060 and i kind of thought you know what would be an interesting um compelling place to start with
00:09:40.300 this project and because of the nature of the times that we live in this question is being
00:09:45.800 asked by a lot of people and so i thought i would start with an aspect of it that i actually don't
00:09:50.540 hear a lot of people talking about. And that is, a lot of people have settled on the idea that
00:09:59.260 nations are important, that nations are essential, that nations are part of the created order,
00:10:03.540 all of which I agree with and I support in the book. But one of the things that is important,
00:10:09.460 I think, to understand nations is that God created nations with a purpose. And one of the purposes
00:10:15.620 of nations is to steward the earth effectively. And so I make a case in the book, starting with
00:10:24.680 the Noahic covenant, because after the flood, God reinitiates the dominion mandate in Genesis 9.
00:10:34.380 He clarifies it, and he says, by the way, all of that's still in effect, and actually you get to
00:10:41.560 eat animals too, but you don't get to kill each other. And the sin before the flood, I mean,
00:10:50.780 there was a lot going on with the Nephilim and all of that, but it says in Genesis 6 that the
00:10:55.740 violence was great in the earth. The bloodshed, a man killing man was great. And it's almost as 0.74
00:11:00.900 if God said through the flood, we're going to reset. And now that the flood is done, I'm going
00:11:05.420 to retell you why put you on the earth and i'm going to be very crystal clear yes the earth
00:11:13.440 yes animals no you don't get to kill humans right and that's and that's the actually the
00:11:19.220 the verse where it says you know uh if a man kills a man his his life is forfeit his blood will be
00:11:25.300 shed that's new in the dominion mandate from genesis uh one now obviously this in nature has
00:11:32.780 entered the picture, and so God's clarifying there. But a lot of Christians get the idea that
00:11:37.200 the dominion mandate, the stewardship principles in the Bible, were only intended for the Garden
00:11:42.780 of Eden. And not only does God clarify it in Genesis 9, but David, and the Psalms reaffirm
00:11:50.100 it, and David clarifies it in Psalm 8. You've set everything under the feet of mankind. It's still
00:11:56.580 in effect. It's just that God now has to account for the sinful nature. I want to read a verse.
00:12:03.300 Nathan, I didn't send this to you. I'm just going to read it. This is Isaiah 45, 18.
00:12:09.640 And it says this, for thus says the Lord who created the heavens, he is God, who formed the
00:12:16.300 earth and made it. He established it. He did not create it empty. He formed it to be inhabited.
00:12:23.360 So what happens coming out of the re-initiation of the Noahic covenant is we move almost immediately
00:12:30.820 into the table of nations.
00:12:32.500 And I find it incredibly important that God's talking about taking dominion of the earth
00:12:38.840 and then he says he gave to each nation its own land.
00:12:44.240 The implication there is that the reason why God created nations in Genesis 10 was so that
00:12:51.240 dominion stewardship could continue in the best possible conditions under the curse, and it would
00:12:57.400 be done in a national effort. And this is the thing, before we get into some quotes, just to
00:13:02.820 kind of set it all up, this is kind of the thesis of this chapter and of my, you know, argument
00:13:08.540 today, is that nations exist for a lot of things, but one of the things we've forgotten is they exist
00:13:13.520 as the fundamental unit of large area stewardship of the earth.
00:13:19.320 Obviously, a family, a man is responsible to steward the resources that he's been given,
00:13:24.060 but that goes best when he lives in a prosperous and peaceful and just nation.
00:13:29.260 And so nations are to marshal the efforts of their people and to analyze and bear fruit
00:13:38.120 with the resources and the places that God has given them in order to achieve great things.
00:13:43.520 They're supposed to achieve great things.
00:13:45.380 So I'm going to get into some quotes here, but I'll throw it to you guys here for a second
00:13:48.840 and just get some initial comments or thoughts on that.
00:13:51.200 I was going to add that it's implicit up till that chapter 9 that there would be nations.
00:13:55.860 So a lot of the Reformers, they would say, if there was no sin in the world, Adam would
00:13:59.200 have had sons and daughters, and they would have spread out.
00:14:01.780 And then the ones that went east would, over time, just be different than the ones that
00:14:05.120 went west.
00:14:06.000 Some would live high.
00:14:06.860 Some would live low.
00:14:07.720 Some would eat a different diet.
00:14:08.720 some would be would eat fish or some would eat mountains and game or whatever it is like that
00:14:14.000 and uh and so they would have been different they would have looked separate but that's all implicit
00:14:17.600 we can only kind of really assume that from the dominion mandate obviously adam and eve having
00:14:22.080 children so when god comes out in genesis 9 and says it it's not something brand new right like
00:14:26.800 hey sins happened i erased the world and now i guess we got to do some type of nation thing i
00:14:31.440 didn't really have a plan i'm scrambling to put it together that was always probably the plan that
00:14:35.120 adam's progeny would have spread out over the world and they would have had nations even without
00:14:39.120 sin but then in genesis 9 god comes in and says just in case you missed it the first time just
00:14:43.040 in case you didn't understand how this was supposed to play out here's what it's gonna
00:14:47.040 look like here's your task here's your mission here's what these accomplish right the land the
00:14:51.600 world that god created in and of itself um has natural barriers right there's mountain ranges
00:14:57.760 there's rivers, there's oceans. So the land itself would naturally, in a geographic sense,
00:15:05.620 would bifurcate peoples. They would just naturally have less access to one another. People who live
00:15:11.680 on this side of the mountain range, and those who live on the other side, people who live
00:15:15.280 on one side of an ocean, and those who live on the other side. And so because of that,
00:15:20.920 at least for you know foreseeably for you know centuries if not millennia as technology is
00:15:29.140 taking time to develop and innovate and all these kinds of things to where you know travel becomes
00:15:33.180 much more accessible and easy you're talking about peoples who wouldn't have seen each other like
00:15:38.440 maybe there would be you know sin never entered the world and death wouldn't would have never
00:15:42.000 entered through sin so everybody would still be alive and so maybe there would be like a
00:15:46.520 once every 10 years or as time went on maybe once a century you know there's a migration to go and
00:15:52.000 visit you know father adam you know and like right and pay homage you know in the fifth commandment
00:15:56.320 to honor thy father and everybody would go and meet adam and hear once more the telling of
00:16:00.300 you know the garden walking with god and the cool of the day you know and the laws that god had given
00:16:04.740 to him and these kinds of things but um but it's not like everybody would live in a huddle together
00:16:10.400 like people because that was the cultural mandate pre-lapsarian precinct was to be fruitful and 0.64
00:16:16.660 multiply and fill the earth to spread out and and we think of like babel well like this is a curse 0.85
00:16:22.420 you know because man was being arrogant you know trying to ascend to heaven trying to make a name
00:16:27.120 for himself and so the judgment of god uh is that god disperses him confuses their language and
00:16:33.980 disperses them devise and separates them over the face of the earth it is a judgment for the sin of
00:16:39.080 pride and directly disobeying what God had told man to do, which was to spread out and fill the
00:16:43.760 earth. But even though it's a judgment, it's a judgment that also simultaneously is a mercy.
00:16:50.180 And what I mean by that is that God providentially through natural means and through judgment,
00:16:55.480 he actually, he doesn't derail the human project, but he actually, the judgment is a discipline in
00:17:02.180 a way that like, you know, discipline is a judgment of sorts for, you know, for the child
00:17:07.460 who is being disobedient, but the full endgame, the full intention of discipline is to recalibrate
00:17:16.280 the child so that they're back on the rails, because they've gotten off and they need to
00:17:21.520 be redirected and recalibrated towards God's original ends and things that are right.
00:17:27.940 And so too with Babel, God does judge the people who have congregated and are trying 0.59
00:17:32.820 to make a great name for themselves by being as God and building a tower to the heavens. 0.94
00:17:37.460 But God, he judges, but he mercifully judges. 0.97
00:17:40.780 And what he does by confusing their languages is he forces them to disperse, 0.99
00:17:45.820 which is essentially it is to get them back on track with his original plan all along, 0.88
00:17:51.920 which was to fill, spread out and fill the earth.
00:17:55.060 And they literally say that.
00:17:56.200 We forget that in Genesis 11, but they literally say,
00:17:58.980 like, let us build a great tower to heaven, make a name for ourselves
00:18:02.560 so that we will not be scattered over all the earth.
00:18:06.440 But that's literally what God told them to do all the way back in Genesis 1.
00:18:10.320 So God says, not just take dominion over the earth, but be fruitful, multiply, and fill
00:18:14.860 it, which means spread out, go, explore, and cover the whole face of the earth.
00:18:21.000 Don't just congregate in one place.
00:18:22.320 So that's literally the original cultural mandate before sin even enters the picture.
00:18:26.320 Then skip forward 10 chapters in Genesis 11, and the very thing God told them to do, to
00:18:31.620 fill go and fill the earth they're now saying let us take the place of god let us somehow exalt
00:18:38.520 ourselves and our name and our you know our glory above god so that we won't uh end up doing the
00:18:45.700 very thing that he commanded us to do yeah and then what does god do he judges them yes but in
00:18:50.740 his judgment is an incredible display of mercy that forces them through practical means to do
00:18:58.180 the very thing that they were supposed to do oh you want to congregate and not spread out and fill
00:19:02.680 the earth um well that's going to be really hard now um and so here you go and so the like the
00:19:09.060 point is like that i'm making is nations were god's original plan pre-lapsary in genesis 1
00:19:14.580 that's the natural inference and implications of the cultural mandate and then um babble like
00:19:22.220 because if you just think babble is a judgment and you don't and you don't see it as a mercy
00:19:26.280 to get humanity back on track well then uh multiculturalism and globalism is the gospel
00:19:32.140 that's right right and if we miss this which a lot of modern christians have then you then
00:19:37.860 you're you're going to hear you know the sermons that i've heard preached where acts chapter two
00:19:43.380 and speaking in tongues is a reversal of genesis 11 and babel and so the goal is actually one
00:19:48.340 human language and just you know uh no no borders you know and and no one no human is illegal and
00:19:55.500 all of a sudden you're like hey christianity is perfectly you know compatible with raging leftism
00:20:01.220 well they try to throw that verse from revelation and say well you hate this idea of every tribe
00:20:05.460 tongue and nation gathered before the the throne of god how do you think that happened do you think
00:20:09.960 babel if that had gone on for 2 000 years christ comes into sense would that have resulted in 0.90
00:20:14.920 tribes tongues and nations distinct people would have been one homogenous goo right that's such a
00:20:20.120 good point they had to be distinct to actually enable that beautiful passage where they're
00:20:24.800 saved out of every one of those groups amen and i yeah i know exactly what you're talking about
00:20:28.880 it's the the usual suspects the detractors you know on x but like that was that was just last
00:20:34.400 week that was posted by someone and and they actually and you could tell like they were proud 0.89
00:20:38.700 of it they they're like got him you know this is we cooked here he's like this is a banger man
00:20:43.340 and he's literally posting like the uh those ethnocentric you know christian nationalists
00:20:48.480 white christian nationalists um here's some of the verses in the bible that they hate and then
00:20:54.140 they quote revelation like every you know before you know the throne of god before the land so many
00:20:58.420 times in every tribe tongue and nation but here's the irony if they had their way there will be no
00:21:04.520 tribes right different tongues and nations if they have their way um then like they they legitimately
00:21:11.120 think that what the gospel does is it doesn't elevate nature but it eradicates and steamrolls
00:21:16.820 and homogenizes uh nature to where they're you know like if we if they're they literally think
00:21:22.020 they think this they think that if god swept the world with a global revival that what that would
00:21:27.760 uh look like is um everybody mixing together and you know like 10 of china moves to the u.s
00:21:36.680 and 10 of russia university brochure on the front lawn yeah exactly and and and eventually but think
00:21:43.040 about it logically for a moment eventually over time if all this were to happen then everybody
00:21:49.000 would end up speaking the same language through intermarriage and these kinds of things um
00:21:54.140 everyone would eventually look the same talk the same um and you just you would just have this
00:22:00.360 the the point being uh there would be no tribe tongue and and nation there would be no distinctions
00:22:07.080 revelation and it's great problem christian nationalists here's the irony we actually like
00:22:11.780 that right we actually think distinct nations with distinct peoples and distinct languages and
00:22:16.920 distinct cultures and like we actually think yeah you know what god was pretty smart that's a great
00:22:22.000 idea i love that i'm excited to spend eternity worshiping with chinese brothers and sisters in
00:22:28.220 christ i'm excited about that but you know what has to to continue for that to be able to happen
00:22:33.120 china right china has to actually exist and when you tell everybody that it's racist to have a
00:22:39.580 country well nobody says that when you tell white people in european countries in america it's racist
00:22:45.260 for them to have a country and the whole world has to come in then you lose that distinction
00:22:50.040 china would still exist and japan's you know all these countries are allowed to exist brazil would
00:22:53.980 be allowed to exist but but all of western european countries would just would just be a
00:22:59.460 homogenous soup right and you make the argument you have to buy the book but you make the argument
00:23:04.760 about nations do they persist into the final yep revelation well so i'll say this before we go to
00:23:11.780 our break then um joel when you mentioned the idea that pre pre-fall maybe there would have been
00:23:17.680 every 10 years 100 years people going on pilgrimage to visit the great great grandfather adam i i think
00:23:23.960 that there's a strong case in revelation 20 and 21 that that will happen except it will be national
00:23:30.360 pilgrimages into the new jerusalem some sort of city where they have developed as a nation as a
00:23:37.040 people. I think peoples will continue into eternity. They have worked and developed something
00:23:43.620 together that particularly is esteeming of God. They have stewarded what he gave them and produced
00:23:51.100 something incredible. And then at that point, there's kind of a, all right, everyone, next year,
00:23:55.400 we're going to all meet at the throne room of the lamb and nation X is going to bring something
00:24:02.720 incredible in to the glory of the lamb yeah but all the nations gathering because it says the
00:24:08.280 kings come in and out it's a progressive ongoing thing that happens bringing their glories uh to
00:24:15.480 the to the throne of the lamb yeah so yeah i love that all right we'll hit our first commercial
00:24:19.620 break and then when we get back we'll get into some quotes from the book our sponsor private
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00:26:02.040 All right, welcome back.
00:26:03.740 So with that as kind of a preliminary, again, my point there is as we think about Christian
00:26:08.960 nationalism and as Christians thinking about their own nation in China or Japan or whatever,
00:26:15.780 one of the things that needs to be at the back of our mind, it's not just about
00:26:19.320 conversion in laws at some point when a nation is christian it's actually turning the totality of
00:26:26.420 its national effort to a stewardship of the land that has god has given to it and that's going to
00:26:31.720 produce different things right this is good some countries have timber some countries have you
00:26:36.160 know different different resources harness desert power yes absolutely some some are are on arachis
00:26:42.460 and um behind our national christian national efforts has to be eventually the goal that we
00:26:53.880 would steward the land that god gave us the resources the productions the cities the
00:26:58.220 monuments all of that would be for god's glory okay um nate let's go ahead and show a couple
00:27:03.620 quotes here i i don't know i guess i'm just showing some of the arguments in the book for
00:27:07.580 people who might be interested and if you guys have a comment on them you can react to it so
00:27:11.600 let's go with quote number one, Nate. All right, so I say this. I need to point out again that this
00:27:16.680 passage comes after the fall. This is the Noahic covenant. We live in the reality of the curse
00:27:23.480 through which God put the entire world under a sigh of despair. And often we think that this
00:27:27.940 grumbling chord is the only voice, the only notes that the earth has. But like with a cancer patient,
00:27:33.920 there are good days and bad days. The earth groans to be sure, but the earth also opens its arms to
00:27:38.680 humanity to welcome us and it also lifts its voice to praise the creator when we think of how
00:27:44.380 god fine-tuned the earth for life and when we examine how vast the heavens are we ought to
00:27:49.820 fall to our knees and kiss the ground not for the ground's sake but in worship to the creator who
00:27:54.680 did indeed form the earth to be our home god created places where crops would grow mountains
00:28:00.460 where we could mine iron seas and rivers to sail our ships petroleum and the nuclear forces to
00:28:06.620 fuel untold multitudes of human activities and at every turn and all throughout history we find
00:28:13.300 that god suited the earth to host us his image bearers he has given us the earth so the point
00:28:19.420 again that the earth actually is for our dominion it is a home that has been given to us it's not
00:28:26.020 the life force that needs to be protected from the evil humans it's not the sacred mother earth that
00:28:32.640 we are intruding on. The earth is our home and God gave it to us. And I like what you've said
00:28:38.180 before, Michael, in terms of one of the things that would make people distinct peoples and also
00:28:45.600 maintain distinctions indefinitely. Because it's like, well, you know, but like with airplanes and
00:28:52.240 all that, like with travel and, you know, and as the gospel goes forth, because here's the thing
00:28:57.720 that like, this is one of the distinctions, I think, between the Christian nationalists and
00:29:01.180 some of the modern theonomists, and you can be a Christian nationalist who's theonomic and those
00:29:06.960 kinds of things, but the hardline, you know, modern theonomic kind of guys, they, if you're
00:29:13.680 not careful, like they, they kind of think that, you know, that everything is, doesn't just stem
00:29:20.140 from, from Christian faith, but is like directly correlated can, you know, like a one-to-one
00:29:25.460 correlation from like you know from culture to cuisine to art to science to like everything is
00:29:32.920 just straight from the scripture and if that's the case then really the only distinctions you
00:29:37.760 would have from from you know different nations is really just um steps along you know it'd be
00:29:43.520 one path and it'd just be who's further down and who's less far you know so like more sanctified
00:29:48.240 as a people yeah exactly like what's the difference between you know in that in that scenario with
00:29:52.600 that presupposition what's the difference between england and ethiopia well england's just better
00:29:57.540 right just more like christ you know in ethiopia uh what will ethiopia look like in a thousand
00:30:03.240 years exactly like england today you know like you know if if they you know and so whereas the
00:30:10.480 christian nationalists um are like no god made distinct peoples and and grace doesn't obliterate
00:30:17.280 or replace or destroy nature but rather elevates and restores and you made a really good argument
00:30:22.000 And I remember talking to you about this as you were in the process of writing the book.
00:30:24.900 But you said that one of the natural aspects that's not obliterated by grace, but rather heightened and restored to its full beauty, is the land itself.
00:30:35.460 And that the land is actually one of the things that God built into the rubric of the world to both create and maintain the distinctions between peoples.
00:30:44.960 that um peoples who live in the alps will probably always be different even not just
00:30:51.840 color of their skin but but like all the way down to certain cultural aspects and
00:30:55.820 all this then then people who live in a desert you know near the equator you know and so like
00:31:01.540 people who live uh on rivers and seas would be different than you know people who live you know
00:31:07.340 predominantly in forests you know and so like there would be different see that difference in
00:31:11.040 the germans versus the italians italy has always been much closer to a city state and even today
00:31:16.460 italians are much more of a city dwelling people and then the germanic peoples were much more
00:31:21.000 of farmers and land and you see even a comfortability and accessibility and so one side
00:31:26.660 they came here moved to texas a bunch of italians went to new york exactly because they were they
00:31:32.260 were bound to the land they they had been raised in that land their ancestors had been that land
00:31:36.620 they were shaped into a city people shaped into a seafaring people shaped into a farming people
00:31:42.200 to the point of being that the land is meaningful and the work that you do on it exerts not just an
00:31:47.660 impact you to the land when we shape the land we farm it but it exerts an impact on the person
00:31:52.740 itself and the people are actually shaped by how they cultivate how they care how full they make
00:31:57.620 it or not full they make it in a very organic connection that they exert an influence on one
00:32:02.940 another that's a good point yeah there's a reason why the dutch were such great explorers they were
00:32:08.480 literally reclaiming land from the sea right like their connection to the sea was was primary even
00:32:15.360 in a way that other um nations that had a lot of of oceanfront property as it were uh they they were
00:32:23.180 not quite the explorers that the dutch were the dutch really i mean if i'm not mistaken i'm pretty
00:32:28.200 sure magellan sailed under the dutch and he's the one that in the modern sense circumnavigated
00:32:32.880 the globe. And so you're right, Wes, all of this does relate to, it is somewhat of a reciprocal
00:32:40.080 relationship between a people and its land and the land and its people. And go ahead.
00:32:45.900 I was going to say, I got a question for you, but continue.
00:32:48.080 I was just going to say, and this is why in the Old Testament, God's ultimate and most
00:32:55.680 devastating judgment to a people is that he will remove them from the land. And so they can, 1.00
00:33:01.560 through their sin and their lack of stewardship, they can sin so grievously against God that he
00:33:07.380 actually takes away their claim to the land. All land that's given to a people is actually given
00:33:12.600 by God. This gets tricky when we think of conquest and war and all of those things,
00:33:18.380 but nevertheless, God in his sovereignty and providence, he is the one that bequeaths to all
00:33:23.760 peoples the land that they have, and he's the one that determines the times and the borders,
00:33:28.700 not just the borders but how long they're going to be on it for and the pro yeah and the province
00:33:32.600 of god um includes suffering and sin so so like when we say god does something we either believe
00:33:40.660 he's sovereign over all things or not and we believe he is and so when god providentially
00:33:45.080 accomplishes something we're not saying that it was just by divine edict you know in a voice right
00:33:49.980 in the sky right uh but it is but it's no less divine um and so conquest is like well yeah but
00:33:55.920 was this did this meet the seven conditions of just war theory you know and like did this meet
00:33:59.760 you know our modern sensibilities of you know standards of ethics and these kind of like okay
00:34:03.940 like there's a debate to be had about that for sure but but it's still something where there's
00:34:09.140 no debate is uh did god do it right god did do it and you think even like conquest you know it's
00:34:15.040 like well what happened to the indigenous people here in america and you know like all like what
00:34:19.400 happened is that god judged them they were worshiping demons right smoking peyote and 0.86
00:34:25.660 killing and eating each other for hundreds of years and god said all right your sin is too great 0.84
00:34:32.260 and i'm gonna spew you out of the land yeah he did it with israel he did with aztecs he did like 0.66
00:34:38.380 he's done an altar in biblical history and human history and in church history the last 2 000 years 0.55
00:34:42.900 and and the lesson for us is like we're not special we're not special same thing can happen
00:34:49.340 does like like oh it's nice nice country you have here be ashamed if you uh kept murdering babies
00:34:56.540 right you know because you can get kicked out too right there's that passage in isaiah where
00:35:01.760 god says clearly that he uses assyria to judge the nations around them and then and then he says
00:35:07.840 assyria right you went too far and now i'm going to judge you for your cruelty thing i providentially
00:35:13.340 used you to do absolutely yeah he like he uses the rod another nation as a rod to discipline
00:35:19.100 his people and then disciplines the rod yep yep and all to his glory amen how do you reconcile
00:35:26.220 the tension so if we've heard it once we've heard it a thousand times but first peter he insists
00:35:30.940 several times on the status of the christian as exile that he really makes the point and some of
00:35:35.180 that they're literal jews that are exiled out of jerusalem and so he's writing to them in like a
00:35:40.140 a literal physical sense like you're literally physically as citizens all these different things
00:35:44.220 you're exiles but there is and calvin says it in his commentaries like there is a real spiritual
00:35:48.820 dimension where he kind of references them as you're in another sense far from home you're
00:35:53.700 exiles you're lost how do you hold our creation care the stewardship of the earth and the
00:35:58.960 enjoyment of it how do you hold that and then at the same time the genuine status that the christian
00:36:04.280 has as exile because some people then say well the earth is just passing away you know like it's
00:36:10.720 all going to be done we're exiles on this earth we're waiting for a heavenly home and then there
00:36:15.340 could be another way of doing it where oh this is it this is the place to be this is kind of all
00:36:21.420 the sum of it how do you hold both of those in tension i have a chapter on that question in the
00:36:25.060 book um gotta buy it and read it my my argument is we have to think carefully about what the word
00:36:30.340 exile means. You think of like Robin Hood, right? The king, King Richard was absent. And so either
00:36:38.520 Prince John or the sheriff, whichever version you're reading, has exiled Robin Hood from his
00:36:44.060 rightful land, not just England in general, but even from his lordly lands that his family owned.
00:36:50.060 And so he's living as an exile out in the woods, right, with his merry men. An exile is someone
00:36:56.420 who has been removed from his home with the expectation of coming back once things are put
00:37:01.900 back into order. And so in that case, when King Richard comes back and he gets rid of Prince John
00:37:09.780 and the sheriff and he sets things aright, Robin Hood comes back to a reordered England and lands
00:37:18.540 that his family owned. And so when we say we are exiles, we are exiles because the situation on
00:37:24.920 earth is out of order and someday christ is going to come back and he's going to put it back into
00:37:30.620 order and then in in revelation 20 it says the new jerusalem descends which i take to be the church
00:37:35.620 god's people will descend back to earth which has been put back into order and so we are exiles from
00:37:42.320 the earth because we're we've been kicked out because of sin and corruption not because the
00:37:48.480 earth is not where we belong right so someday christ will come and perfectly set it aright and
00:37:53.360 our job now is to comport ourselves and behave ourselves as individuals and as nations in a way
00:38:00.160 that reflects that final ordering of creation as best we can. Yes, the new heavens and the new
00:38:07.820 earth, which many theologians, especially within the Reformed tradition, have taken to mean the
00:38:11.960 new heavens come to the new earth. And any Christian for that matter, whether you're Roman
00:38:18.580 catholic or eastern orthodox or protestant um all affirm that there is a final physical
00:38:24.820 resurrection of the dead um the reprobate to damnation and the saved unto glory and so we're
00:38:32.760 going to have we're not just going to be floating on on clouds in some ethereal plane like we're
00:38:37.720 going to have a a physical earthly existence and i think like that that's this whole idea of like
00:38:45.440 Grace, not destroying nature, but rather restoring and elevating.
00:38:49.080 So then what is the new earth?
00:38:50.880 Is it a new earth?
00:38:52.320 Meaning like, hey, I'm going to get a new TV because my last one broke.
00:38:55.420 What that means is that my last one is going to be hauled out to the curb and taken out by the trash.
00:39:00.920 And I'm getting a whole other separate distinct TV.
00:39:04.540 The new earth is this earth made new.
00:39:07.760 And so I believe it's going to be glorified in the same.
00:39:10.740 And that's what we believe about the physical resurrection.
00:39:13.200 I'm not getting another body.
00:39:14.500 it's going to be this body
00:39:16.320 resurrected, glorified, and made
00:39:18.400 new. And Christ is the first fruits
00:39:20.320 of that. Christ is
00:39:22.420 the first one. You had 0.99
00:39:23.400 revivifications of
00:39:26.080 Lazarus. People come back to life.
00:39:28.340 But Jesus didn't just come back to life. He wasn't
00:39:30.360 just revived. He was resurrected.
00:39:32.220 The resurrection is that
00:39:34.120 Jesus was actually glorified
00:39:36.720 in his heavenly body
00:39:38.440 which is still a physical
00:39:40.380 body and it's the same
00:39:41.880 physical body that 0.98
00:39:43.380 came out of the virgin's womb 0.99
00:39:45.900 that was born and that 0.91
00:39:47.940 walked in the streets of Jerusalem and it was
00:39:49.980 nailed to a tree. It's the same 0.99
00:39:51.440 body. Most, you know, Christian 0.97
00:39:53.880 theologians believe that he even still bears
00:39:55.940 the scars, the marks on his hands and
00:39:57.880 in his side, you know, from the crucifixion.
00:39:59.700 No longer in any pain or suffering, but
00:40:01.840 that body, those
00:40:03.860 scars being monuments to, you know, the
00:40:05.820 testimony of his salvific work.
00:40:08.020 And so, that's what God's,
00:40:09.760 we know that's what God is doing with our
00:40:11.740 physical bodies, that they will be glorified, not just revived, but resurrected. So, they'll be new,
00:40:17.780 but not new in the sense of another body, but this body made new. And so, then to just apply
00:40:23.920 that same theological concept to the earth, that it's not another earth, but it's this earth made
00:40:30.160 new, a glorified Alps, a glorified Pacific Ocean, glorified rivers, glorified Nile, glorified no
00:40:37.420 more fire ants you know or if so they don't bite you you know like like but like a glorified
00:40:42.000 creation but it's it's not another world it's this world fixed and set in order and that we're
00:40:48.680 going to have an eternal physical existence in these bodies on this planet and so i say all that
00:40:54.120 to say this i'm so tired of the uh this world is not our home right my brother in christ it is
00:41:02.800 quite literally right you're forever home right this world you not just it's your home right now
00:41:09.300 it is forever your home right now will it be better like you can like for you to say this
00:41:15.040 world's not my home i'm so tired of you know living in this world like okay i'm tired of a
00:41:19.360 world ravaged by sin i'm tired of of that absolutely i'm tired of the world in many
00:41:26.240 aspects of the world as it currently exists because of being under the curse of sin you know
00:41:30.800 sure um but you're like this this is your home and what god is doing is he's he's conquering it
00:41:39.560 he's re-establishing so there'll be a final culmination when jesus returns and the new
00:41:44.420 jerusalem comes to earth like but but then also there's there's in real human history there's a
00:41:49.120 progressive and gradual sense of the world being redeemed and and christianize one by one nations
00:41:56.760 you know, in every enemy, right? 1 Corinthians 15, like every single enemy being made a footstool
00:42:02.660 for Christ's feet. And the last, not the first, but the last of those enemies being death
00:42:06.660 itself. And so one by one, even now, nations are being subjugated to the lordship, kingship
00:42:13.620 of Christ. And they're still different. Even being redeemed is not being fully glorified
00:42:21.520 and resurrected as as it will be in the day to come um but there yeah there's a real sense in
00:42:27.000 which this is our home so that like the last thing i'll say is i i i remember thinking about this you
00:42:32.000 know years ago and and and thinking like well you know like it's it's likened to abraham who was a
00:42:39.980 sojourner right you know like like when because because a lot of the new testament it's not just
00:42:44.120 the old the new testament that's i mean it's these guys who have this view they're not they're not
00:42:48.420 crazy i get it i get where it comes from but a lot of the new testament including peter's epistles
00:42:52.720 talks about you know being sojourners and strangers and aliens and i think that that's true
00:42:59.180 and it was particularly true of first century apostles like who were like at that time it's
00:43:07.320 like a ragtag team of disciples like vastly outnumbered by rome and and pharisees and
00:43:16.260 sadducees and i mean they were they were the minority they didn't have they weren't missionaries
00:43:22.100 from a christian land that could go patriots were not in control they were not in control at this
00:43:26.720 time you know they were very much not in control and and so like in that sense yeah like in rome
00:43:31.500 uh yeah you like at the time of peter as he's writing like very very much in exile yeah very
00:43:39.200 much a sojourner but here's the deal abraham um sojourned but this is what's so unique that a lot
00:43:45.520 of christians miss he was sojourning in a land uh that eventually he was he was destined to own
00:43:53.200 so abraham's sojourning but he's sojourning in a land where at that moment in time yeah he's
00:44:01.140 the minority he's the stranger he's the foreigner he's a sojourner but but his descendants they
00:44:08.200 become the rightful heirs the inhabitants so the very place where he sojourns he's not sojourning 0.95
00:44:15.080 so that he can be taken out he's sojourning so that he can go deeper in right so that it can all
00:44:20.880 be rendered unto him so he's not it's not so yet there is a sense even now i would say that that
00:44:26.020 continues what the apostles and first century christians experienced in rome uh that's still
00:44:30.220 being experienced in china that's still being experienced in and in some sense in the west
00:44:34.200 because right now we're in the midst of a very great apostasy and so throughout all of this
00:44:39.320 christian gospel age there are multiple places and times where christians will be a remnant and
00:44:46.420 and be on the losing in the minority and and feel like and for all intents and purposes will
00:44:51.560 literally be sojourners and exiles and and the foreigner the stranger in in a land but not but
00:44:57.820 they're not sojourning in a land to eventually be extracted from it they're sojourning in a land
00:45:03.840 that christ has promised they eventually will conquer yeah that's a difference well when you
00:45:08.460 trace the argue through hebrews because hebrews talks about um abraham being a sojourner um and
00:45:14.940 then hebrews 11 13 says these all died in faith not having received the things promised so abraham
00:45:20.960 did not receive what was promised to him but then you look one chapter over uh hebrews 12
00:45:26.640 it says this instead now that the writer i think paul turns to the christian and says abraham and
00:45:34.500 all those great men of faith, they died without having received what was promised. They were
00:45:39.140 looking always forward to the city that God had promised, the better city that God had promised.
00:45:44.220 And then in chapter 12, verse 22, he says, instead, you, but now you, have come to Mount Zion. And
00:45:53.420 there is a sense where because, and again, I don't have time to trace it here, but I make a real
00:45:58.700 big argument in the book that the the incarnation of christ tracing his genealogy as the true and
00:46:06.280 rightful king not just of david's throne but of adam's dominion privileges totally alters the game
00:46:13.480 yes and so where whereas everyone was looking forward to everything in the old testament
00:46:19.440 spiritual and physical the writer of hebrew says but now you have received your eschatological end
00:46:25.600 you have already come to the holy city mount zion you've already been brought in and when jesus tells
00:46:31.640 us to pray thy kingdom come that will be done that that is happening on earth as it is in heaven
00:46:37.260 that is happening like heaven is coming to earth yes and it's happening there is a sure there no
00:46:43.980 one's denying there is a final glorious eschaton like a a final heightened culmination yeah to that
00:46:52.920 that will happen at the end of the age with the final physical return of christ right nobody's
00:46:57.380 denying that um but to say that it happens in its fullness then and therefore because of that
00:47:03.500 it doesn't happen at all now is um to eisegete biblical text that's that's reading your own
00:47:10.680 assumption into the text uh jesus himself he even says that the kingdom of heaven is in your midst
00:47:18.980 it's upon you it's here it's here when jesus came it was here and he says what what shall what uh
00:47:25.300 to what shall i compare it it is like a mustard seed right which grows it doesn't just come at
00:47:31.140 the very end all at once you don't plant a mustard seed and then you know a year goes by and there's
00:47:36.060 nothing nothing nothing nothing and then one day you wake up boom there's a tree like that's not
00:47:40.380 how that's not how it works and and then you know jesus goes even further than that elsewhere in the
00:47:45.760 gospel narratives where he compares himself to a seat he says i tell you the truth unless a kernel
00:47:51.340 a seat goes into the earth and is buried yep was he did he was he buried in the tomb in the earth
00:47:57.620 like uh and unless it dies like the seed actually has to die in order for something else within it
00:48:05.860 to spring up and into life and so he says unless a kernel goes into the ground it is buried and dies
00:48:13.900 then it cannot produce life and then you compare that with his parable the mustard seed
00:48:20.420 and in where he's trying to say this is what the kingdom of god is like so it's it's something that
00:48:25.560 something comes like a seed goes into the earth and is buried and dies and it springs for something
00:48:32.500 else and it doesn't just happen at the very end all at once suddenly and cataclysmically but it
00:48:38.660 happens progressively, gradually, and steadily, slowly, over time, in the way that trees grow.
00:48:44.620 And so then what is that? Jesus. Ever since Jesus came, in his life, death, and resurrection,
00:48:51.700 the seed was successfully planted. And what we're experiencing from that point on, these last 2,000
00:48:58.360 years, and for however much longer the Lord chooses to tarry, what we're experiencing is the
00:49:04.040 kingdom of heaven coming progressively and gradually here to earth. And there's a fullness
00:49:11.240 in which we're awaiting at the end, but it's increasing progressively even now in real human
00:49:19.200 history. And so this world, in quite a literal sense, is our home. It really is our home. And
00:49:27.660 you might as well take off your hat and stay a while and and get to work right get to work like
00:49:34.340 this is like one day you know like to die is to be you know to be absent of the bodies to be present
00:49:39.580 with the lord so a spiritual immediate existence with the lord for all those who are redeemed upon
00:49:44.200 their physical death but eventually christ will return there'll be the resurrection of the dead
00:49:48.140 and and then i'm coming back to live here right here and and i would like to think that everything
00:49:54.880 that's done in faith here yep um that in some sense it may not be the exact form it'll probably
00:50:02.520 be a further glorified and redeemed form but every every good endeavor every good thing that's
00:50:09.640 that's accomplished that was done for the glory of god and done in faith a reliance on his grace
00:50:14.100 and a desire for his glory that those things i i really believe like will have some eternal
00:50:20.160 continuity and um and and will will continue i think they'll even be i honest i could be wrong
00:50:29.860 but not just you know that's the same mountain range i remember going to yosemite park but
00:50:34.360 like now it's incredible and awesome and glorified um but not just like geographic markers but
00:50:39.780 i think man-made cities yep like that's philadelphia you know like there's a lot of
00:50:45.800 work that needs to be done there good good i know because hebrews but but still like glorified and
00:50:51.400 like that was because that was a city the reason i mentioned philadelphia like is like american
00:50:56.280 cities you know or even like certain european cities like those were built initially by christians
00:51:01.440 right yep and there's some lasting characteristic peter talks about the elements being burned up
00:51:06.760 but and we have our our interpretation of that that it's a refining burning but hebrews again
00:51:13.520 And it's apocalyptic language is a shaking.
00:51:16.880 And the things that are sturdy don't get knocked over when the shaking happens.
00:51:21.460 And then Hebrews talks about how now is the time of shaking.
00:51:24.160 I think you're right, Joel.
00:51:25.260 I mean, there's not as much biblical evidence of it, but I do get into that a little bit
00:51:29.200 in the book also.
00:51:29.700 I think there is a sense where some things, like you say, will have been built on faith
00:51:34.200 and will survive the shaking and will endure even into eternity.
00:51:37.780 And what I've always said with Peter's epistle is, one, it's Peter.
00:51:40.840 I mean, the guy's not that smart.
00:51:42.500 it's the bible um no but like uh when he talks about you know like the uh that it'll be consumed
00:51:48.980 by fire you know um what i've always said with that is like peter it's not just that the scripture
00:51:54.840 says elsewhere but peter says elsewhere uh he speaks about what god did through the flood right
00:52:00.420 and he says like that god destroyed the world right and that language is utilized god destroyed
00:52:05.980 the world um through water and then he'll destroy it through fire and like and we would look at that
00:52:11.320 and we say um did god destroy the world yeah well in for all intents and purposes in the way that
00:52:17.480 that word's being used and god's you know god's purpose is what he means by destroy yes in a very
00:52:22.400 real sense god destroyed the word um by water but that doesn't mean that the world was literally
00:52:28.800 annihilated like like you know it does it's not like a some and the righteous endured yes and
00:52:35.000 the right exactly so when the world did that in that water shaped it reshaped the world in a in
00:52:40.640 a literal geographic sense you know maybe that's probably where we got the grand canyon and certain
00:52:44.880 things maybe even tectonic plates shifting and maybe i don't know like that like i'm not i'm not
00:52:50.060 a flat earther but i could i could be persuaded of like a pangea kind of thing like all the
00:52:54.060 continents together and the you know um and that also just being one because it kind of pairs up
00:52:59.220 nicely with the noaic covenant and then leading towards babel of like god saying like no you will
00:53:04.360 split up you will have nations i'm going to do it through uh confusing your languages i'm going to
00:53:09.600 literally uh put oceans in between you i'm gonna like you guys are not going to be globalist and
00:53:15.600 here we are christian saying oh so you're saying you want globalism so you're so you're telling me 0.52
00:53:23.720 gay multiculturalism is what you want i read you loud and clear god um it's i mean it's literally 0.83
00:53:28.560 comical when you think how far off but but anyways but the point is god destroyed the world through 0.76
00:53:33.900 water but he didn't destroy every single person or the ark right he preserved the righteous
00:53:40.040 preserved uh and then he started over with a completely new species of animals no no he kept
00:53:46.240 those species but then with them created more species glorified and maximized it um and god
00:53:53.340 replaced this you know floating rock in the sky you know there's a whole new planet nope same
00:53:57.380 planet reformed and cleansed purified and reshaped and even in some sense you could say glorified like
00:54:04.200 the majesty of like the just the the violent uh uh the violent aspect of the great torrents
00:54:11.220 you know of the deep and and all these you know geysers erupting because it's not just the water
00:54:16.420 that comes from above you know the canopy breaking but then also the waters of the deep under the
00:54:21.140 earth opening up and and the sheer shock and and shaking of that is probably uh part of the way
00:54:28.520 that we got mount everest and the grand canyon so like there's even like a geographic glory that
00:54:34.060 was accomplished by this judgment that made it better like we go to national you know parks to
00:54:40.560 witness things that might not have actually even existed if it weren't for the flood right so it's
00:54:45.100 like the land um was improved the people were certainly improved um the the animals were
00:54:52.320 improved but here's the thing all improved but also not replaced but preserved right improved
00:54:57.360 upon something preserved so who's to say if god destroyed the earth and that in that in a real
00:55:02.920 sense destroyed is a fair word it's the accurate word but we know he didn't replace it then who's
00:55:07.440 to say that that this destruction in the end of fire wouldn't be in the literal sense the same
00:55:13.000 kind of thing not a total replacement not a total annihilation but but a a a little burning away of
00:55:20.720 the wicked like the spoken of of a lake of fire so god visits he descends the fire consumes all
00:55:26.840 that is as michael was saying earlier the things that can be shaken the temporal that which is to
00:55:31.180 be burnt up the wicked themselves cast into the burning lake right and the righteous preserved
00:55:36.100 and established in the holy city amen i'll get weird for one second but i think it's good but
00:55:41.500 it's weird um right so like so christ you know all his enemies being made a footstool and as we
00:55:47.040 share in his kingship and his glorious priest a royal priesthood kings and priests that also his
00:55:52.380 enemies are going to be a footstool under our feet i i think that the earth in the same way that
00:55:56.760 water from the earth and and it came from above but also under the earth the great springs of the
00:56:01.140 deep opened up and and swallowed people up and and drowned them they died by water um and then you
00:56:07.800 also see this actually through biblical history when you think of aiken you know um and the in
00:56:12.120 the earth swallowing him up yeah i actually think that um i think the lake of fire will be under the
00:56:19.020 earth it'll be a physical place because we know the resurrection the bodily resurrection is not
00:56:23.660 just for the elect it's all but also for the damned the reprobate and and it's going to be
00:56:29.440 a physical conscious torment right and i actually think that the earth will likely open up in the 0.86
00:56:35.340 same way that once it produced water this time it'll be fire and and the dam will be taken down
00:56:40.780 below and we will have an eternal existence uh with the enemies of god under our feet
00:56:45.560 well the description 22 revelation 22 is a city and it says outside of the dogs the cowards the
00:56:52.380 immoral yeah that outside there's dark darkness the shapeless the dam the burning and then the
00:56:57.780 holy beautiful city of which god itself is its light so certainly like there's the imagery there
00:57:02.440 that we can look out into the chasms and into the darkness and see the wicked forever shut out of
00:57:07.280 the holy city and its light and its glory and its perfection yeah yeah all right let's hit our second
00:57:12.080 commercial break and when we come back we'll uh i want to tie this to a couple modern applications
00:57:17.480 and then we'll wrap things up okay all right the clock is running out you need to go and register
00:57:22.440 now for our christ is king how to defeat trash world conference it's happening the year of our
00:57:28.460 Lord, 2025, April 3rd, 4th, and 5th. That's a Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. And by God's
00:57:35.560 grace, we're able to provide for you an all-star lineup. We've got Steve Dace, Calvin Robinson,
00:57:41.620 Oren McIntyre, Dr. Stephen Wolfe, Eric Kahn, David Reese, Andrew Isker, John Harris, A.D. Robles,
00:57:49.160 Dan Burkholder, Dusty Devers, Ben Garrett, C.J. Engel, and yours truly, Pastor Joel Webin.
00:57:55.760 Come on out. Join us April 3rd, 4th, and 5th, 2025, Thursday through Saturday. Go to
00:58:02.960 rightresponseconference.com to register today. Again, that's rightresponseconference.com.
00:58:10.620 Listen, guys, you probably listen to Right Response Ministries because
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00:59:29.480 and all of finance for christendom all right welcome back so um we're gonna wrap things up
00:59:37.860 i'm gonna read a quote nathan this is going to be the last two quotes so i'll start with quote
00:59:42.000 five here. And I want to make the case that in previous times, Christians did think about
00:59:48.820 stewarding their nations for God's glory. So first a quote from the book and then a historical
00:59:53.560 example. So here I say, God commands all nations to use the land that he has given them. He commands
01:00:00.060 them even to organize themselves towards this end, that the earth may blossom in beauty and that the
01:00:04.660 people of those nations would take the resources in their specific land and produce things that
01:00:08.960 honor god it is good that nations lay down highways numbers 2017 and other infrastructure
01:00:14.740 it is good that they erect amazing buildings and undertake feats of engineering but the key point
01:00:20.060 that we see in psalm 72 which solomon wrote about how great it was that the the kings of the earth 0.69
01:00:25.980 were bringing their goods and their glories to jerusalem yeah queer treasures as revoice has said
01:00:33.460 do you remember that article no i don't i don't remember he wrote an article about how
01:00:38.860 same-sex gay christians will bring queer treasures oh my word by being like celibate
01:00:45.040 or whatever like their gift and treasure to bring it sorry for that no it's okay well that was a 0.99
01:00:49.360 lovely mental image too so that's what that's what you really should apologize for terrible
01:00:52.840 all right so um in song uh the key point that we see in psalm 72 is that rather than use their
01:00:59.680 accomplishments to glorify themselves they are to use those accomplishments to worship the one true 0.70
01:01:05.460 god and to direct all attention and focus to him and in a way this is the problem with babel right
01:01:12.220 babel was not inherently wrong in that they were attempting a great project of architecture and
01:01:19.600 building right they developed new technology exactly in line with how god has made us they
01:01:24.700 They learned bricks and tar instead of just the previous building technology that they had.
01:01:33.260 And the problem was that they used it for their own glory, to rebel against God.
01:01:38.660 A lot of times, the common misconception is that it's really a waste of time for a nation to accomplish something.
01:01:45.820 You think about the Cathedral de Sagrada Familia in Spain, which has been an over-two-century project.
01:01:53.300 and we've talked about this on the podcast before um like what an incredible pooling of resources
01:02:00.500 by a nation and a people to build something that hopefully would stand to the honor and glory of
01:02:07.460 christ right libertarians hardest hits that's right well even too there's no like financial
01:02:11.940 consideration like cathedrals were not built by private equity groups that's about the return
01:02:16.360 on their investment that's correct it was literally not like well we can make money on this great job
01:02:20.220 no tax maybe even a few indulgences right well there was some of that i remember cj like he
01:02:25.460 visited uh he he's you know he says it to like give himself a hard time not take himself too
01:02:29.920 seriously but he said like that he was visiting you know europe and and checking out all these
01:02:34.740 cathedrals but it was during his libertarian days okay and so he was like just walking around you
01:02:39.200 know frowning the whole time like i can't believe they spent tax dollars on this and he tells the
01:02:44.560 story now saying like like if you're wondering how gay libertarianism is let me tell you a story
01:02:49.640 about myself. Well, that's exactly the point. Like an individual family is never going to build the
01:02:56.520 Hoover Dam or Notre Dame or something like that. Like that is a national project to do these
01:03:02.520 things. And so this even gets into the question of, you know, who should be in charge of
01:03:08.380 infrastructure in a nation? I don't have a definitive position on this yet, but I think
01:03:14.220 there's a good case that insofar as these are projects that benefit the nation, it's not wrong
01:03:19.040 for the nation to bring those under a governmental organization like who else is going to build
01:03:23.440 the highway system across the united states or the railway system which by the way the railway
01:03:28.800 system was um a distinctly uh pushed forward as a way to achieve god's will of of taking dominion
01:03:40.820 of the west like there was there were some backers one of them was you know brigham young
01:03:45.200 unfortunately but it was fairly common to talk about the railroads west as our christian duty
01:03:52.140 to subdue the land that god has given to us um another example and nate you can put this quote
01:03:58.700 up this is from the mayflower compact um and this is this was their intention this was how they
01:04:04.500 stewarded what they hoped was going to be their new land they say have an undertaken for the glory
01:04:09.540 of god and advancement of the christian faith in honor of our king and country voyage to plant the
01:04:14.000 first colony in the northern parts of Virginia, do by these presence solemnly and mutually in the
01:04:19.560 presence of God and of one another covenant and combine ourselves together in a civil body
01:04:24.260 politic for our better ordering and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid by the
01:04:30.060 virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame such just and equal laws, ordinances, acts,
01:04:36.980 constitutions, and offices from time to time as shall be thought most meet, which means necessary,
01:04:42.020 and convenient for the general good of the colony unto which we promise all do submission and
01:04:47.640 obedience um and so they they were pledging the totality of their effort to really the overall
01:04:55.680 overarching purpose they were going to do things for the practical good they were going to pass
01:04:59.820 laws they were going to organize themselves in particular ways but it was all going to be for
01:05:04.160 the glory of christ amen and downtown new york and columbia university the library there that's
01:05:08.720 right over the quad it literally says uh it's for the advancement of the public good yeah and the
01:05:13.820 glory of almighty god yeah we're building this beautiful library in this rotunda you go inside
01:05:18.440 there's four pillars and it's a theology law medicine and art like it's these pillars holding
01:05:23.960 up society and emblazoned across the top in new york city to this day as we're doing this for
01:05:29.100 public good and the glory of almighty god amen yeah and well and it's it's almost trite now but
01:05:35.180 The founding universities in America all had in their mottos for honor of Christ and this sort of thing.
01:05:42.600 And, of course, the Puritans used language of like, we're building a city on a hill that will be a light to the world.
01:05:48.480 This is going to be not the New Jerusalem, but a New Jerusalem of sorts.
01:05:54.000 These Americas will be Christian colonies, Christian cities, Christian cathedrals that will be a light to the nations.
01:06:03.640 yep so all of that to say one kind of fallout of this is uh i mentioned it earlier it is quite
01:06:12.900 common now to assume that humans are the intruders i remember i was at a track meet for one of my
01:06:18.760 kids um two years ago and there was a snake um that was near where some of the people were sitting
01:06:25.880 and people were obviously concerned about it we didn't know what kind of snake it was but people
01:06:30.540 a little bit concerned about it and as we were leaving later on i remember one of the coaches
01:06:34.440 said well it's understandable we're in the snake's home right and it's like i get what you're saying
01:06:41.660 i don't want to be too pedantic here but no the snake actually is in our home and we have the
01:06:46.500 right to protect ourselves and to kill or relocate that snake like like the world is not
01:06:52.360 nature's it's not mother earth's it's not guys it belongs to us and we are to steward it
01:06:59.220 um the the buzzword a few years ago was creation care i don't know if you guys remember i remember
01:07:04.640 this whole thing creation care says protect the planet biblical stewardship stewardship says
01:07:10.240 subdue it build with it and offer the glory back to god and do it of course in a sustainable fashion
01:07:17.440 of course like yeah so like it it doesn't it doesn't mean that we you know burn tires in our
01:07:22.440 backyard on the lips you know like no like we don't want to be suicidal like this is the only
01:07:28.620 home we have and so you're doing all these in ways that are sustainable but like but when it's
01:07:33.780 done well you can harvest um you know thousands and thousands and millions of trees and actually
01:07:41.040 plant bigger forests that replace them you know so there's a way to you know to be a true
01:07:45.760 conservationist um but but not living as a guest but like this is my home and i'm also taking care
01:07:53.320 of it yep environmentalism and there's a change in public perception in this environmentalism is
01:07:58.540 actually a right-wing position it was occupied by the left for a while through the 80s and the 90s
01:08:02.620 and the 2000s but uh setting up a factory and not killing every form of life in the pond that's
01:08:08.300 right outside it right not polluting the air with all of your whatever it is that you're burning
01:08:13.100 like that's actually right wing if we're here for tradition we're here for the establishment
01:08:16.620 of the family we're here for the care of the church and ordering people towards earthly good
01:08:20.780 and heavenly good trash toxic chemicals all those things are very much so relevant interests now you
01:08:26.940 can do something like harnessing wind it's just economically even the fossil fuels required to
01:08:32.940 assemble the pieces to actually put these turbines in to say nothing of the birds they kill to say
01:08:37.260 nothing of disposal of them that doesn't mean that we go to wind and we go to solar price be
01:08:42.460 price be forgotten but it does mean generally speaking we actually care about what are we
01:08:46.860 putting into the environment how is this affecting individuals and saying it does matter right good
01:08:51.820 Good. So as we, you know, as we further the cause of Christian nationalism, it's at one hand a little bit daunting to say, man, we're not there until we're building the buildings to Christ's honor again, right?
01:09:05.380 It's not just passing an abortion law or, you know, whatever political—we talk a lot about politics and political gains on the show.
01:09:14.760 all of that is good but also like we are desiring that our nation that all the nations in the earth
01:09:21.040 really would direct their national effort in real tangible ways towards the glory of christ and so
01:09:27.020 we won't be discouraged that's the goal um that's what we're pushing towards and we want to see
01:09:31.420 reclaimed in our nation and we hope that missionaries will take up that cause and they'll
01:09:36.260 approach missions in a slightly different way too where they're building the seeds into evangelism
01:09:42.040 to other nations of we're not just saving two percent of you we're christianizing your nation
01:09:47.980 so that the totality of your action would glorify and honor christ right and we're and we're not
01:09:54.000 exporting uh we're trying to export the gospel and a christian foundation we're not exporting
01:09:59.800 um things that are are just not really rooted in the scripture but distinctions of our own culture
01:10:06.540 we're not exporting our sacred democracy like it's okay to do the work of an evangelist a
01:10:12.040 missionary and say this is the gospel this is the scripture this is the foundation for all of life
01:10:16.540 and then to still to let let that country be that country and like the reality is that if every
01:10:23.100 nation was christianized tomorrow um i am i am absolutely persuaded that they would still look
01:10:29.720 very distinct that some nations would have great glorious like they'd all have great glorious
01:10:34.940 cathedrals but they wouldn't all look the same right different nations would have different
01:10:38.240 colors and different architecture there'd be different forms of art there'd be uh different
01:10:42.260 cuisine there'd be like it's um like the bible says a lot and and none of us would ever deny
01:10:49.860 the sufficiency of scripture but the question that that that raises is the bible is sufficient
01:10:55.820 for what like we believe that it's sufficient for so that the man of god would be equipped for
01:11:00.960 every good work right so it's sufficient for character it's sufficient for morality and
01:11:06.660 certainly it's sufficient for salvation and heavenly things but the bible in its own claims
01:11:12.000 of sufficiency never say that it is so particular that is um that it's exclusively sufficient for
01:11:20.360 one type of architecture right so that um if two nations one in you mean we're not all supposed to
01:11:26.580 be using cubits right exactly so it's like one nation in sub-saharan africa and then one nation
01:11:31.620 in europe if they were both equally christian then they would both uh build the notre dame
01:11:36.380 cathedral like that the bible doesn't make that claim that's well japan has huge palaces right
01:11:42.460 they're built out of huge beams of wood and they look totally different than the the rock and brick
01:11:47.660 palaces in europe and yet they're still glorious yeah and that's part of the reason why like as we
01:11:52.680 have further innovation and travel and all these kinds of things like that's that's one of the
01:11:57.020 great glories like i would like for my grandkids to be able to go you know if they desire to to
01:12:02.880 like to visit japan and i would like it to still be japan right like like how disappointing would
01:12:07.500 that be to go and visit japan and uh there's no more samurai you know like there's no museums
01:12:14.360 there's no like no distinct style of dress it's all just american if i go to japan and it's just
01:12:19.720 like 10 black people 10 white people 10 you know latinos you know like and and then it looks like
01:12:25.960 dfw you know with just strip with just japanese instead of english like what are we doing it's
01:12:31.800 like i don't know like that's that's that's we should be able to see that as sad right so when
01:12:37.620 when we're not you know the biggest advocates of multiculturalism in every single nation right now
01:12:42.720 it's because we actually um it's because it's it's not just like it's not because we're against
01:12:48.760 multiculturalism in in the life to come like we actually not only do we think it's good but we
01:12:54.380 think that it must be preserved every tribe tongue and nation before the throne of the lamb
01:13:00.100 worshiping in unity and unison and at peace with one another um that can only be accomplished if
01:13:07.420 if distinct nations exist so thank you guys for tuning in last thing uh for today again it's the
01:13:14.760 day before our conference which starts tomorrow april 3rd 4th and 5th uh thursday friday and
01:13:20.940 saturday uh and i i just want to make sure that you guys are able to get the content if you would
01:13:26.700 like we are going to make the content available to the public eventually but it's going to be
01:13:31.480 you know coming off of the conference there's a lot of work and a lot of different you know
01:13:35.540 practical things that we have to get done. So it'll probably be a few weeks before we put out
01:13:39.840 even the first piece of content to the public, you know, on YouTube and X and those platforms.
01:13:45.060 And then what we're going to do is we're going to drip out slowly each individual piece of
01:13:51.820 content of which there will be 10, seven main sessions and three panels. And we're only going
01:13:57.300 to drip out one piece of content per week. So you're looking at probably three or four weeks
01:14:01.860 before even the first one comes and then having to wait one week you know so three or four weeks
01:14:05.660 to start and then 10 weeks to get all 10 pieces of content so um without exaggerating like you're
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01:14:39.820 patreon.com forward slash right response ministries, patreon.com forward slash right response
01:14:45.520 ministries. Thanks for tuning in. Love you guys. God bless.
01:14:57.000 Thank you.