The NXR Podcast - THE LIVESTREAM - Nations： Don’t Unite What God Divided

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00:00:30.000 What if I told you that most modern Christians have completely missed one of God's most foundational purposes for mankind?

00:00:38.220 Not just missed it, but forgotten it, ignored it, and in many cases, even denied it. 0.59

00:00:45.300 We're not talking about something minor here.

00:00:47.780 We're talking about why God created the world in the first place,

00:00:51.700 what He expects humanity to do with it, and, crucially, how He intends for us to do it.

00:00:59.200 Here's the claim.

00:01:00.000 God created nations, that is, distinct peoples in distinct lands, for the express purpose of

00:01:08.340 stewarding the earth. Nations are not an accident of history or a necessary evil in a fallen world.

00:01:17.160 They are the fundamental unit of dominion. And yet, most churches today act as if nations

00:01:24.240 are at best irrelevant, and at worst, idolatrous.

00:01:29.760 Creation care? That's the buzzword today,

00:01:32.900 but much of what goes under the banner is just baptized globalism and soft environmentalism.

00:01:40.160 It's stewardship without dominion, guilt without glory, conservation without cultivation.

00:01:48.280 It replaces national duty with personal shame and trades biblical fruitfulness for bureaucratic minimalism.

00:01:57.960 Meanwhile, we live in an age when our greatest national achievements no longer bring glory to God, but glory to man.

00:02:06.380 The Mayflower Compact was a covenant for Christ.

00:02:10.120 The moon landing was a monument to mankind.

00:02:13.700 Somewhere along the way, we stopped building towers for God and started building Babels for ourselves.

00:02:20.880 This episode is brought to you by our premier sponsors, Armored Republic and Reese Fund, as well as our Patreon members and our faithful donors.

00:02:31.180 You can join our Patreon by going to patreon.com forward slash Right Response Ministries.

00:02:38.500 Or you can donate by going to RightResponseMinistries.com forward slash donate.

00:02:46.180 In this episode, we walk through a chapter from Michael's new book,

00:02:51.120 a deep dive into the Noahic Covenant, the Dominion Mandate, and the Rise of Nations.

00:02:57.560 And then we bring it forward.

00:03:00.000 What does this mean for us today?

00:03:02.180 Why does it matter that God gave land to nations?

00:03:05.360 and how should faithful Christians think about patriotism,

00:03:09.880 dominion, and national identity in an age of globalist fog?

00:03:29.480 G.A., G.A., G.A.

00:03:31.680 Good afternoon.

00:03:32.680 Here we are.

00:03:33.040 this is wednesday uh the year of our lord april 2nd 2025 right so this is wednesday april 2nd

00:03:41.060 and it's the day before our conference and i have to just say this real quick okay so first and

00:03:44.860 foremost my bona fides here a little bit of a defense uh michael wrote that cold open and the

00:03:50.480 second that it came out of my mouth about the moon landing i was like we just lost half of our viewers

00:03:55.600 what is he thinking the marketing strategy this is this is terrible but see the proper response

00:04:02.060 to anybody who says the moon landing is a fake

00:04:04.000 is you have to out-conspiracy

00:04:05.900 the conspirators. So you have to say

00:04:08.080 you believe in the moon?

00:04:09.680 What a normie! I can't believe

00:04:12.000 it's like the moon landing never happened

00:04:14.180 it's like I can't believe you even believe the moon

00:04:16.060 exists. You're the normie here

00:04:17.800 you haven't gone deep enough down the rabbit hole

00:04:19.880 I will say this, for the moon

00:04:22.120 landing deniers

00:04:23.100 here's the real psyop

00:04:25.080 it's just one more bit of propaganda

00:04:28.120 to take away white men's achievement 0.76

00:04:29.920 that's my

00:04:30.920 that's my i mean what an incredible navigation yeah we landed no computers we landed on the moon

00:04:36.800 and and let's just let's just admit this was a time when uh that you know that houston control

00:04:42.940 center was uh very white and very male you know like the diversity was not our strength at that

00:04:48.760 time for better for worse there's this picture of a woman supposedly standing next to all this

00:04:53.280 code that she wrote and it's kind of touted as like oh look at how incredible on the backs of

00:04:58.000 this diverse coalition if you actually get into like the code she did write much of that was other

00:05:01.960 people a lot of code she wrote was like literally just visual interface so that's it's literally

00:05:06.200 like a psyop in a story like women and others we all got to it together making it look nice like

00:05:10.820 no men got us there right so anyways um moon landing is not the discussion for today we get

00:05:17.760 you know eventually i would actually appreciate you know us doing a full episode on that i think

00:05:22.100 that it would be fascinating if nothing else um but we're going to be talking about nations as

00:05:25.960 distinct people and the marks of a nation, what that means for us, the implications today.

00:05:31.300 And we're going to be talking about that from Michael's book. But because, again, because it is

00:05:34.940 April 2nd, Wednesday, it's the day before a conference. So I would be remiss if I did not

00:05:39.580 at least briefly mention at this point, I don't think anybody's saying like, hey, maybe I'll go

00:05:43.960 in person, right? If you're going in person, I think you've made the decision by now.

00:05:47.420 You're probably on the plane already.

00:05:48.500 Even the most procrastinating of procrastinators usually don't make a decision to go across the

00:05:54.860 country, you know, 24 hours in advance. So we'll just assume that that's settled. We have about

00:05:58.820 a thousand people who are coming in person. Praise God. We're excited about that. But it's not too

00:06:03.380 late for those who would like to watch the conference online. So we are actually live

00:06:07.880 streaming the entirety of the conference, all the seven main sessions, three different panels.

00:06:13.280 All of it will be available, a live stream, but it's exclusively available for our Patreon

00:06:18.680 members so you need to go to patreon.com forward slash right response ministries patreon.com

00:06:26.020 forward slash right response ministries and you have to sign up for the gold tier membership the

00:06:32.380 silver tier is going to provide early access and ad free you know for our friday special and our

00:06:37.420 live stream those things but the conference live stream is only available for our gold members it's

00:06:43.220 ten dollars a month and little life hack you could always cancel believe it or not you don't have to

00:06:48.040 have 47 subscriptions most of which you've forgotten about simultaneously i know it feels

00:06:53.440 impossible but it actually is possible possible to unsubscribe from something uh so you could

00:06:58.360 you know subscribe just for the next few days and get all the content and unsubscribe if you choose

00:07:03.600 not to because you want to support this ministry then we are deeply appreciative we thank you for

00:07:08.220 that um okay so there's all that uh last bit of business before we hop into the discussion michael

00:07:13.620 where can people get your book? Nathan, can you pan out and show? We've got Michael's book here

00:07:18.420 and the title, Michael? In defense of Christian nations. Show the print on that too. That's not

00:07:22.560 size 24, like the inside. This bad boy. Size 11. Let me just show you. This is the difference

00:07:29.140 between Michael Belich and Joel 11. I'll have to zoom in a bit. All right. So there's two books,

00:07:34.840 but it's really this view. Remember Toy Story 1 where they're like, oh, there's a little present

00:07:38.880 so like when you're looking like this it's like toy story oh sorry i'm in front of my mic when

00:07:45.760 you're looking like this it's like hey it's not so bad you know you got two books but when you

00:07:48.820 turn it to the side you see there's a little bit of girth on this one and not so much on this one

00:07:54.360 so this is a kind of like you and me this is 400 pages right uh yeah yeah so a 400 page treatment

00:08:01.880 of nations yeah and it's full of references too like this is not just michael's thoughts off the

00:08:07.520 top i think every single page that i saw as i was thumbing through it is like references and

00:08:11.700 citations and here's where i got this there are parts where there are lots and there are parts

00:08:15.240 where there are fewer and part of the reason is um one of the critiques that stephen wolf got when

00:08:20.460 he released his book was well you don't exegete any scripture here and he's like well i'm relying

00:08:26.160 on the reformers who did that so there's there is a large section of the book which is making

00:08:29.980 the biblical argument which is really just what does the bible say about this and even then it's

00:08:34.300 lot of verses yeah oh yeah where are the bible absolutely yeah and so to purchase it they go

00:08:39.460 well so first of all if you're coming to the conference it will be available there at the

00:08:42.940 table near the front the right response table at a slight discount for what's being offered on for

00:08:47.820 retail uh if not if you want to get your hands on the on a copy the amazon amazon is the best place

00:08:53.480 you can just search for the title in defense of christian nations by michael belch and we have a

00:08:58.800 kindle a soft cover and a hardcover versions awesome yeah the case for christian nationalism

00:09:05.860 deserves a hardcover can't believe they've never they never have done that yeah i feel like that's

00:09:11.140 kind of like a slap in the face it's a great deserves it yeah and for all of you um dust jacket

00:09:16.620 uh you know disrespecters out there uh the publishing i'm just using amazon publishing

00:09:23.600 they do not put dust jackets on it so okay if that matters to you then there you go there you go

00:09:28.600 yeah okay well go ahead and kick us off excellent so i'm really happy to jump into this topic today

00:09:34.060 and i kind of thought you know what would be an interesting um compelling place to start with

00:09:40.300 this project and because of the nature of the times that we live in this question is being

00:09:45.800 asked by a lot of people and so i thought i would start with an aspect of it that i actually don't

00:09:50.540 hear a lot of people talking about. And that is, a lot of people have settled on the idea that

00:09:59.260 nations are important, that nations are essential, that nations are part of the created order,

00:10:03.540 all of which I agree with and I support in the book. But one of the things that is important,

00:10:09.460 I think, to understand nations is that God created nations with a purpose. And one of the purposes

00:10:15.620 of nations is to steward the earth effectively. And so I make a case in the book, starting with

00:10:24.680 the Noahic covenant, because after the flood, God reinitiates the dominion mandate in Genesis 9.

00:10:34.380 He clarifies it, and he says, by the way, all of that's still in effect, and actually you get to

00:10:41.560 eat animals too, but you don't get to kill each other. And the sin before the flood, I mean,

00:10:50.780 there was a lot going on with the Nephilim and all of that, but it says in Genesis 6 that the

00:10:55.740 violence was great in the earth. The bloodshed, a man killing man was great. And it's almost as 0.74

00:11:00.900 if God said through the flood, we're going to reset. And now that the flood is done, I'm going

00:11:05.420 to retell you why put you on the earth and i'm going to be very crystal clear yes the earth

00:11:13.440 yes animals no you don't get to kill humans right and that's and that's the actually the

00:11:19.220 the verse where it says you know uh if a man kills a man his his life is forfeit his blood will be

00:11:25.300 shed that's new in the dominion mandate from genesis uh one now obviously this in nature has

00:11:32.780 entered the picture, and so God's clarifying there. But a lot of Christians get the idea that

00:11:37.200 the dominion mandate, the stewardship principles in the Bible, were only intended for the Garden

00:11:42.780 of Eden. And not only does God clarify it in Genesis 9, but David, and the Psalms reaffirm

00:11:50.100 it, and David clarifies it in Psalm 8. You've set everything under the feet of mankind. It's still

00:11:56.580 in effect. It's just that God now has to account for the sinful nature. I want to read a verse.

00:12:03.300 Nathan, I didn't send this to you. I'm just going to read it. This is Isaiah 45, 18.

00:12:09.640 And it says this, for thus says the Lord who created the heavens, he is God, who formed the

00:12:16.300 earth and made it. He established it. He did not create it empty. He formed it to be inhabited.

00:12:23.360 So what happens coming out of the re-initiation of the Noahic covenant is we move almost immediately

00:12:30.820 into the table of nations.

00:12:32.500 And I find it incredibly important that God's talking about taking dominion of the earth

00:12:38.840 and then he says he gave to each nation its own land.

00:12:44.240 The implication there is that the reason why God created nations in Genesis 10 was so that

00:12:51.240 dominion stewardship could continue in the best possible conditions under the curse, and it would

00:12:57.400 be done in a national effort. And this is the thing, before we get into some quotes, just to

00:13:02.820 kind of set it all up, this is kind of the thesis of this chapter and of my, you know, argument

00:13:08.540 today, is that nations exist for a lot of things, but one of the things we've forgotten is they exist

00:13:13.520 as the fundamental unit of large area stewardship of the earth.

00:13:19.320 Obviously, a family, a man is responsible to steward the resources that he's been given,

00:13:24.060 but that goes best when he lives in a prosperous and peaceful and just nation.

00:13:29.260 And so nations are to marshal the efforts of their people and to analyze and bear fruit

00:13:38.120 with the resources and the places that God has given them in order to achieve great things.

00:13:43.520 They're supposed to achieve great things.

00:13:45.380 So I'm going to get into some quotes here, but I'll throw it to you guys here for a second

00:13:48.840 and just get some initial comments or thoughts on that.

00:13:51.200 I was going to add that it's implicit up till that chapter 9 that there would be nations.

00:13:55.860 So a lot of the Reformers, they would say, if there was no sin in the world, Adam would

00:13:59.200 have had sons and daughters, and they would have spread out.

00:14:01.780 And then the ones that went east would, over time, just be different than the ones that

00:14:05.120 went west.

00:14:06.000 Some would live high.

00:14:06.860 Some would live low.

00:14:07.720 Some would eat a different diet.

00:14:08.720 some would be would eat fish or some would eat mountains and game or whatever it is like that

00:14:14.000 and uh and so they would have been different they would have looked separate but that's all implicit

00:14:17.600 we can only kind of really assume that from the dominion mandate obviously adam and eve having

00:14:22.080 children so when god comes out in genesis 9 and says it it's not something brand new right like

00:14:26.800 hey sins happened i erased the world and now i guess we got to do some type of nation thing i

00:14:31.440 didn't really have a plan i'm scrambling to put it together that was always probably the plan that

00:14:35.120 adam's progeny would have spread out over the world and they would have had nations even without

00:14:39.120 sin but then in genesis 9 god comes in and says just in case you missed it the first time just

00:14:43.040 in case you didn't understand how this was supposed to play out here's what it's gonna

00:14:47.040 look like here's your task here's your mission here's what these accomplish right the land the

00:14:51.600 world that god created in and of itself um has natural barriers right there's mountain ranges

00:14:57.760 there's rivers, there's oceans. So the land itself would naturally, in a geographic sense,

00:15:05.620 would bifurcate peoples. They would just naturally have less access to one another. People who live

00:15:11.680 on this side of the mountain range, and those who live on the other side, people who live

00:15:15.280 on one side of an ocean, and those who live on the other side. And so because of that,

00:15:20.920 at least for you know foreseeably for you know centuries if not millennia as technology is

00:15:29.140 taking time to develop and innovate and all these kinds of things to where you know travel becomes

00:15:33.180 much more accessible and easy you're talking about peoples who wouldn't have seen each other like

00:15:38.440 maybe there would be you know sin never entered the world and death wouldn't would have never

00:15:42.000 entered through sin so everybody would still be alive and so maybe there would be like a

00:15:46.520 once every 10 years or as time went on maybe once a century you know there's a migration to go and

00:15:52.000 visit you know father adam you know and like right and pay homage you know in the fifth commandment

00:15:56.320 to honor thy father and everybody would go and meet adam and hear once more the telling of

00:16:00.300 you know the garden walking with god and the cool of the day you know and the laws that god had given

00:16:04.740 to him and these kinds of things but um but it's not like everybody would live in a huddle together

00:16:10.400 like people because that was the cultural mandate pre-lapsarian precinct was to be fruitful and 0.64

00:16:16.660 multiply and fill the earth to spread out and and we think of like babel well like this is a curse 0.85

00:16:22.420 you know because man was being arrogant you know trying to ascend to heaven trying to make a name

00:16:27.120 for himself and so the judgment of god uh is that god disperses him confuses their language and

00:16:33.980 disperses them devise and separates them over the face of the earth it is a judgment for the sin of

00:16:39.080 pride and directly disobeying what God had told man to do, which was to spread out and fill the

00:16:43.760 earth. But even though it's a judgment, it's a judgment that also simultaneously is a mercy.

00:16:50.180 And what I mean by that is that God providentially through natural means and through judgment,

00:16:55.480 he actually, he doesn't derail the human project, but he actually, the judgment is a discipline in

00:17:02.180 a way that like, you know, discipline is a judgment of sorts for, you know, for the child

00:17:07.460 who is being disobedient, but the full endgame, the full intention of discipline is to recalibrate

00:17:16.280 the child so that they're back on the rails, because they've gotten off and they need to

00:17:21.520 be redirected and recalibrated towards God's original ends and things that are right.

00:17:27.940 And so too with Babel, God does judge the people who have congregated and are trying 0.59

00:17:32.820 to make a great name for themselves by being as God and building a tower to the heavens. 0.94

00:17:37.460 But God, he judges, but he mercifully judges. 0.97

00:17:40.780 And what he does by confusing their languages is he forces them to disperse, 0.99

00:17:45.820 which is essentially it is to get them back on track with his original plan all along, 0.88

00:17:51.920 which was to fill, spread out and fill the earth.

00:17:55.060 And they literally say that.

00:17:56.200 We forget that in Genesis 11, but they literally say,

00:17:58.980 like, let us build a great tower to heaven, make a name for ourselves

00:18:02.560 so that we will not be scattered over all the earth.

00:18:06.440 But that's literally what God told them to do all the way back in Genesis 1.

00:18:10.320 So God says, not just take dominion over the earth, but be fruitful, multiply, and fill

00:18:14.860 it, which means spread out, go, explore, and cover the whole face of the earth.

00:18:21.000 Don't just congregate in one place.

00:18:22.320 So that's literally the original cultural mandate before sin even enters the picture.

00:18:26.320 Then skip forward 10 chapters in Genesis 11, and the very thing God told them to do, to

00:18:31.620 fill go and fill the earth they're now saying let us take the place of god let us somehow exalt

00:18:38.520 ourselves and our name and our you know our glory above god so that we won't uh end up doing the

00:18:45.700 very thing that he commanded us to do yeah and then what does god do he judges them yes but in

00:18:50.740 his judgment is an incredible display of mercy that forces them through practical means to do

00:18:58.180 the very thing that they were supposed to do oh you want to congregate and not spread out and fill

00:19:02.680 the earth um well that's going to be really hard now um and so here you go and so the like the

00:19:09.060 point is like that i'm making is nations were god's original plan pre-lapsary in genesis 1

00:19:14.580 that's the natural inference and implications of the cultural mandate and then um babble like

00:19:22.220 because if you just think babble is a judgment and you don't and you don't see it as a mercy

00:19:26.280 to get humanity back on track well then uh multiculturalism and globalism is the gospel

00:19:32.140 that's right right and if we miss this which a lot of modern christians have then you then

00:19:37.860 you're you're going to hear you know the sermons that i've heard preached where acts chapter two

00:19:43.380 and speaking in tongues is a reversal of genesis 11 and babel and so the goal is actually one

00:19:48.340 human language and just you know uh no no borders you know and and no one no human is illegal and

00:19:55.500 all of a sudden you're like hey christianity is perfectly you know compatible with raging leftism

00:20:01.220 well they try to throw that verse from revelation and say well you hate this idea of every tribe

00:20:05.460 tongue and nation gathered before the the throne of god how do you think that happened do you think

00:20:09.960 babel if that had gone on for 2 000 years christ comes into sense would that have resulted in 0.90

00:20:14.920 tribes tongues and nations distinct people would have been one homogenous goo right that's such a

00:20:20.120 good point they had to be distinct to actually enable that beautiful passage where they're

00:20:24.800 saved out of every one of those groups amen and i yeah i know exactly what you're talking about

00:20:28.880 it's the the usual suspects the detractors you know on x but like that was that was just last

00:20:34.400 week that was posted by someone and and they actually and you could tell like they were proud 0.89

00:20:38.700 of it they they're like got him you know this is we cooked here he's like this is a banger man

00:20:43.340 and he's literally posting like the uh those ethnocentric you know christian nationalists

00:20:48.480 white christian nationalists um here's some of the verses in the bible that they hate and then

00:20:54.140 they quote revelation like every you know before you know the throne of god before the land so many

00:20:58.420 times in every tribe tongue and nation but here's the irony if they had their way there will be no

00:21:04.520 tribes right different tongues and nations if they have their way um then like they they legitimately

00:21:11.120 think that what the gospel does is it doesn't elevate nature but it eradicates and steamrolls

00:21:16.820 and homogenizes uh nature to where they're you know like if we if they're they literally think

00:21:22.020 they think this they think that if god swept the world with a global revival that what that would

00:21:27.760 uh look like is um everybody mixing together and you know like 10 of china moves to the u.s

00:21:36.680 and 10 of russia university brochure on the front lawn yeah exactly and and and eventually but think

00:21:43.040 about it logically for a moment eventually over time if all this were to happen then everybody

00:21:49.000 would end up speaking the same language through intermarriage and these kinds of things um

00:21:54.140 everyone would eventually look the same talk the same um and you just you would just have this

00:22:00.360 the the point being uh there would be no tribe tongue and and nation there would be no distinctions

00:22:07.080 revelation and it's great problem christian nationalists here's the irony we actually like

00:22:11.780 that right we actually think distinct nations with distinct peoples and distinct languages and

00:22:16.920 distinct cultures and like we actually think yeah you know what god was pretty smart that's a great

00:22:22.000 idea i love that i'm excited to spend eternity worshiping with chinese brothers and sisters in

00:22:28.220 christ i'm excited about that but you know what has to to continue for that to be able to happen

00:22:33.120 china right china has to actually exist and when you tell everybody that it's racist to have a

00:22:39.580 country well nobody says that when you tell white people in european countries in america it's racist

00:22:45.260 for them to have a country and the whole world has to come in then you lose that distinction

00:22:50.040 china would still exist and japan's you know all these countries are allowed to exist brazil would

00:22:53.980 be allowed to exist but but all of western european countries would just would just be a

00:22:59.460 homogenous soup right and you make the argument you have to buy the book but you make the argument

00:23:04.760 about nations do they persist into the final yep revelation well so i'll say this before we go to

00:23:11.780 our break then um joel when you mentioned the idea that pre pre-fall maybe there would have been

00:23:17.680 every 10 years 100 years people going on pilgrimage to visit the great great grandfather adam i i think

00:23:23.960 that there's a strong case in revelation 20 and 21 that that will happen except it will be national

00:23:30.360 pilgrimages into the new jerusalem some sort of city where they have developed as a nation as a

00:23:37.040 people. I think peoples will continue into eternity. They have worked and developed something

00:23:43.620 together that particularly is esteeming of God. They have stewarded what he gave them and produced

00:23:51.100 something incredible. And then at that point, there's kind of a, all right, everyone, next year,

00:23:55.400 we're going to all meet at the throne room of the lamb and nation X is going to bring something

00:24:02.720 incredible in to the glory of the lamb yeah but all the nations gathering because it says the

00:24:08.280 kings come in and out it's a progressive ongoing thing that happens bringing their glories uh to

00:24:15.480 the to the throne of the lamb yeah so yeah i love that all right we'll hit our first commercial

00:24:19.620 break and then when we get back we'll get into some quotes from the book our sponsor private

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00:26:02.040 All right, welcome back.

00:26:03.740 So with that as kind of a preliminary, again, my point there is as we think about Christian

00:26:08.960 nationalism and as Christians thinking about their own nation in China or Japan or whatever,

00:26:15.780 one of the things that needs to be at the back of our mind, it's not just about

00:26:19.320 conversion in laws at some point when a nation is christian it's actually turning the totality of

00:26:26.420 its national effort to a stewardship of the land that has god has given to it and that's going to

00:26:31.720 produce different things right this is good some countries have timber some countries have you

00:26:36.160 know different different resources harness desert power yes absolutely some some are are on arachis

00:26:42.460 and um behind our national christian national efforts has to be eventually the goal that we

00:26:53.880 would steward the land that god gave us the resources the productions the cities the

00:26:58.220 monuments all of that would be for god's glory okay um nate let's go ahead and show a couple

00:27:03.620 quotes here i i don't know i guess i'm just showing some of the arguments in the book for

00:27:07.580 people who might be interested and if you guys have a comment on them you can react to it so

00:27:11.600 let's go with quote number one, Nate. All right, so I say this. I need to point out again that this

00:27:16.680 passage comes after the fall. This is the Noahic covenant. We live in the reality of the curse

00:27:23.480 through which God put the entire world under a sigh of despair. And often we think that this

00:27:27.940 grumbling chord is the only voice, the only notes that the earth has. But like with a cancer patient,

00:27:33.920 there are good days and bad days. The earth groans to be sure, but the earth also opens its arms to

00:27:38.680 humanity to welcome us and it also lifts its voice to praise the creator when we think of how

00:27:44.380 god fine-tuned the earth for life and when we examine how vast the heavens are we ought to

00:27:49.820 fall to our knees and kiss the ground not for the ground's sake but in worship to the creator who

00:27:54.680 did indeed form the earth to be our home god created places where crops would grow mountains

00:28:00.460 where we could mine iron seas and rivers to sail our ships petroleum and the nuclear forces to

00:28:06.620 fuel untold multitudes of human activities and at every turn and all throughout history we find

00:28:13.300 that god suited the earth to host us his image bearers he has given us the earth so the point

00:28:19.420 again that the earth actually is for our dominion it is a home that has been given to us it's not

00:28:26.020 the life force that needs to be protected from the evil humans it's not the sacred mother earth that

00:28:32.640 we are intruding on. The earth is our home and God gave it to us. And I like what you've said

00:28:38.180 before, Michael, in terms of one of the things that would make people distinct peoples and also

00:28:45.600 maintain distinctions indefinitely. Because it's like, well, you know, but like with airplanes and

00:28:52.240 all that, like with travel and, you know, and as the gospel goes forth, because here's the thing

00:28:57.720 that like, this is one of the distinctions, I think, between the Christian nationalists and

00:29:01.180 some of the modern theonomists, and you can be a Christian nationalist who's theonomic and those

00:29:06.960 kinds of things, but the hardline, you know, modern theonomic kind of guys, they, if you're

00:29:13.680 not careful, like they, they kind of think that, you know, that everything is, doesn't just stem

00:29:20.140 from, from Christian faith, but is like directly correlated can, you know, like a one-to-one

00:29:25.460 correlation from like you know from culture to cuisine to art to science to like everything is

00:29:32.920 just straight from the scripture and if that's the case then really the only distinctions you

00:29:37.760 would have from from you know different nations is really just um steps along you know it'd be

00:29:43.520 one path and it'd just be who's further down and who's less far you know so like more sanctified

00:29:48.240 as a people yeah exactly like what's the difference between you know in that in that scenario with

00:29:52.600 that presupposition what's the difference between england and ethiopia well england's just better

00:29:57.540 right just more like christ you know in ethiopia uh what will ethiopia look like in a thousand

00:30:03.240 years exactly like england today you know like you know if if they you know and so whereas the

00:30:10.480 christian nationalists um are like no god made distinct peoples and and grace doesn't obliterate

00:30:17.280 or replace or destroy nature but rather elevates and restores and you made a really good argument

00:30:22.000 And I remember talking to you about this as you were in the process of writing the book.

00:30:24.900 But you said that one of the natural aspects that's not obliterated by grace, but rather heightened and restored to its full beauty, is the land itself.

00:30:35.460 And that the land is actually one of the things that God built into the rubric of the world to both create and maintain the distinctions between peoples.

00:30:44.960 that um peoples who live in the alps will probably always be different even not just

00:30:51.840 color of their skin but but like all the way down to certain cultural aspects and

00:30:55.820 all this then then people who live in a desert you know near the equator you know and so like

00:31:01.540 people who live uh on rivers and seas would be different than you know people who live you know

00:31:07.340 predominantly in forests you know and so like there would be different see that difference in

00:31:11.040 the germans versus the italians italy has always been much closer to a city state and even today

00:31:16.460 italians are much more of a city dwelling people and then the germanic peoples were much more

00:31:21.000 of farmers and land and you see even a comfortability and accessibility and so one side

00:31:26.660 they came here moved to texas a bunch of italians went to new york exactly because they were they

00:31:32.260 were bound to the land they they had been raised in that land their ancestors had been that land

00:31:36.620 they were shaped into a city people shaped into a seafaring people shaped into a farming people

00:31:42.200 to the point of being that the land is meaningful and the work that you do on it exerts not just an

00:31:47.660 impact you to the land when we shape the land we farm it but it exerts an impact on the person

00:31:52.740 itself and the people are actually shaped by how they cultivate how they care how full they make

00:31:57.620 it or not full they make it in a very organic connection that they exert an influence on one

00:32:02.940 another that's a good point yeah there's a reason why the dutch were such great explorers they were

00:32:08.480 literally reclaiming land from the sea right like their connection to the sea was was primary even

00:32:15.360 in a way that other um nations that had a lot of of oceanfront property as it were uh they they were

00:32:23.180 not quite the explorers that the dutch were the dutch really i mean if i'm not mistaken i'm pretty

00:32:28.200 sure magellan sailed under the dutch and he's the one that in the modern sense circumnavigated

00:32:32.880 the globe. And so you're right, Wes, all of this does relate to, it is somewhat of a reciprocal

00:32:40.080 relationship between a people and its land and the land and its people. And go ahead.

00:32:45.900 I was going to say, I got a question for you, but continue.

00:32:48.080 I was just going to say, and this is why in the Old Testament, God's ultimate and most

00:32:55.680 devastating judgment to a people is that he will remove them from the land. And so they can, 1.00

00:33:01.560 through their sin and their lack of stewardship, they can sin so grievously against God that he

00:33:07.380 actually takes away their claim to the land. All land that's given to a people is actually given

00:33:12.600 by God. This gets tricky when we think of conquest and war and all of those things,

00:33:18.380 but nevertheless, God in his sovereignty and providence, he is the one that bequeaths to all

00:33:23.760 peoples the land that they have, and he's the one that determines the times and the borders,

00:33:28.700 not just the borders but how long they're going to be on it for and the pro yeah and the province

00:33:32.600 of god um includes suffering and sin so so like when we say god does something we either believe

00:33:40.660 he's sovereign over all things or not and we believe he is and so when god providentially

00:33:45.080 accomplishes something we're not saying that it was just by divine edict you know in a voice right

00:33:49.980 in the sky right uh but it is but it's no less divine um and so conquest is like well yeah but

00:33:55.920 was this did this meet the seven conditions of just war theory you know and like did this meet

00:33:59.760 you know our modern sensibilities of you know standards of ethics and these kind of like okay

00:34:03.940 like there's a debate to be had about that for sure but but it's still something where there's

00:34:09.140 no debate is uh did god do it right god did do it and you think even like conquest you know it's

00:34:15.040 like well what happened to the indigenous people here in america and you know like all like what

00:34:19.400 happened is that god judged them they were worshiping demons right smoking peyote and 0.86

00:34:25.660 killing and eating each other for hundreds of years and god said all right your sin is too great 0.84

00:34:32.260 and i'm gonna spew you out of the land yeah he did it with israel he did with aztecs he did like 0.66

00:34:38.380 he's done an altar in biblical history and human history and in church history the last 2 000 years 0.55

00:34:42.900 and and the lesson for us is like we're not special we're not special same thing can happen

00:34:49.340 does like like oh it's nice nice country you have here be ashamed if you uh kept murdering babies

00:34:56.540 right you know because you can get kicked out too right there's that passage in isaiah where

00:35:01.760 god says clearly that he uses assyria to judge the nations around them and then and then he says

00:35:07.840 assyria right you went too far and now i'm going to judge you for your cruelty thing i providentially

00:35:13.340 used you to do absolutely yeah he like he uses the rod another nation as a rod to discipline

00:35:19.100 his people and then disciplines the rod yep yep and all to his glory amen how do you reconcile

00:35:26.220 the tension so if we've heard it once we've heard it a thousand times but first peter he insists

00:35:30.940 several times on the status of the christian as exile that he really makes the point and some of

00:35:35.180 that they're literal jews that are exiled out of jerusalem and so he's writing to them in like a

00:35:40.140 a literal physical sense like you're literally physically as citizens all these different things

00:35:44.220 you're exiles but there is and calvin says it in his commentaries like there is a real spiritual

00:35:48.820 dimension where he kind of references them as you're in another sense far from home you're

00:35:53.700 exiles you're lost how do you hold our creation care the stewardship of the earth and the

00:35:58.960 enjoyment of it how do you hold that and then at the same time the genuine status that the christian

00:36:04.280 has as exile because some people then say well the earth is just passing away you know like it's

00:36:10.720 all going to be done we're exiles on this earth we're waiting for a heavenly home and then there

00:36:15.340 could be another way of doing it where oh this is it this is the place to be this is kind of all

00:36:21.420 the sum of it how do you hold both of those in tension i have a chapter on that question in the

00:36:25.060 book um gotta buy it and read it my my argument is we have to think carefully about what the word

00:36:30.340 exile means. You think of like Robin Hood, right? The king, King Richard was absent. And so either

00:36:38.520 Prince John or the sheriff, whichever version you're reading, has exiled Robin Hood from his

00:36:44.060 rightful land, not just England in general, but even from his lordly lands that his family owned.

00:36:50.060 And so he's living as an exile out in the woods, right, with his merry men. An exile is someone

00:36:56.420 who has been removed from his home with the expectation of coming back once things are put

00:37:01.900 back into order. And so in that case, when King Richard comes back and he gets rid of Prince John

00:37:09.780 and the sheriff and he sets things aright, Robin Hood comes back to a reordered England and lands

00:37:18.540 that his family owned. And so when we say we are exiles, we are exiles because the situation on

00:37:24.920 earth is out of order and someday christ is going to come back and he's going to put it back into

00:37:30.620 order and then in in revelation 20 it says the new jerusalem descends which i take to be the church

00:37:35.620 god's people will descend back to earth which has been put back into order and so we are exiles from

00:37:42.320 the earth because we're we've been kicked out because of sin and corruption not because the

00:37:48.480 earth is not where we belong right so someday christ will come and perfectly set it aright and

00:37:53.360 our job now is to comport ourselves and behave ourselves as individuals and as nations in a way

00:38:00.160 that reflects that final ordering of creation as best we can. Yes, the new heavens and the new

00:38:07.820 earth, which many theologians, especially within the Reformed tradition, have taken to mean the

00:38:11.960 new heavens come to the new earth. And any Christian for that matter, whether you're Roman

00:38:18.580 catholic or eastern orthodox or protestant um all affirm that there is a final physical

00:38:24.820 resurrection of the dead um the reprobate to damnation and the saved unto glory and so we're

00:38:32.760 going to have we're not just going to be floating on on clouds in some ethereal plane like we're

00:38:37.720 going to have a a physical earthly existence and i think like that that's this whole idea of like

00:38:45.440 Grace, not destroying nature, but rather restoring and elevating.

00:38:49.080 So then what is the new earth?

00:38:50.880 Is it a new earth?

00:38:52.320 Meaning like, hey, I'm going to get a new TV because my last one broke.

00:38:55.420 What that means is that my last one is going to be hauled out to the curb and taken out by the trash.

00:39:00.920 And I'm getting a whole other separate distinct TV.

00:39:04.540 The new earth is this earth made new.

00:39:07.760 And so I believe it's going to be glorified in the same.

00:39:10.740 And that's what we believe about the physical resurrection.

00:39:13.200 I'm not getting another body.

00:39:14.500 it's going to be this body

00:39:16.320 resurrected, glorified, and made

00:39:18.400 new. And Christ is the first fruits

00:39:20.320 of that. Christ is

00:39:22.420 the first one. You had 0.99

00:39:23.400 revivifications of

00:39:26.080 Lazarus. People come back to life.

00:39:28.340 But Jesus didn't just come back to life. He wasn't

00:39:30.360 just revived. He was resurrected.

00:39:32.220 The resurrection is that

00:39:34.120 Jesus was actually glorified

00:39:36.720 in his heavenly body

00:39:38.440 which is still a physical

00:39:40.380 body and it's the same

00:39:41.880 physical body that 0.98

00:39:43.380 came out of the virgin's womb 0.99

00:39:45.900 that was born and that 0.91

00:39:47.940 walked in the streets of Jerusalem and it was

00:39:49.980 nailed to a tree. It's the same 0.99

00:39:51.440 body. Most, you know, Christian 0.97

00:39:53.880 theologians believe that he even still bears

00:39:55.940 the scars, the marks on his hands and

00:39:57.880 in his side, you know, from the crucifixion.

00:39:59.700 No longer in any pain or suffering, but

00:40:01.840 that body, those

00:40:03.860 scars being monuments to, you know, the

00:40:05.820 testimony of his salvific work.

00:40:08.020 And so, that's what God's,

00:40:09.760 we know that's what God is doing with our

00:40:11.740 physical bodies, that they will be glorified, not just revived, but resurrected. So, they'll be new,

00:40:17.780 but not new in the sense of another body, but this body made new. And so, then to just apply

00:40:23.920 that same theological concept to the earth, that it's not another earth, but it's this earth made

00:40:30.160 new, a glorified Alps, a glorified Pacific Ocean, glorified rivers, glorified Nile, glorified no

00:40:37.420 more fire ants you know or if so they don't bite you you know like like but like a glorified

00:40:42.000 creation but it's it's not another world it's this world fixed and set in order and that we're

00:40:48.680 going to have an eternal physical existence in these bodies on this planet and so i say all that

00:40:54.120 to say this i'm so tired of the uh this world is not our home right my brother in christ it is

00:41:02.800 quite literally right you're forever home right this world you not just it's your home right now

00:41:09.300 it is forever your home right now will it be better like you can like for you to say this

00:41:15.040 world's not my home i'm so tired of you know living in this world like okay i'm tired of a

00:41:19.360 world ravaged by sin i'm tired of of that absolutely i'm tired of the world in many

00:41:26.240 aspects of the world as it currently exists because of being under the curse of sin you know

00:41:30.800 sure um but you're like this this is your home and what god is doing is he's he's conquering it

00:41:39.560 he's re-establishing so there'll be a final culmination when jesus returns and the new

00:41:44.420 jerusalem comes to earth like but but then also there's there's in real human history there's a

00:41:49.120 progressive and gradual sense of the world being redeemed and and christianize one by one nations

00:41:56.760 you know, in every enemy, right? 1 Corinthians 15, like every single enemy being made a footstool

00:42:02.660 for Christ's feet. And the last, not the first, but the last of those enemies being death

00:42:06.660 itself. And so one by one, even now, nations are being subjugated to the lordship, kingship

00:42:13.620 of Christ. And they're still different. Even being redeemed is not being fully glorified

00:42:21.520 and resurrected as as it will be in the day to come um but there yeah there's a real sense in

00:42:27.000 which this is our home so that like the last thing i'll say is i i i remember thinking about this you

00:42:32.000 know years ago and and and thinking like well you know like it's it's likened to abraham who was a

00:42:39.980 sojourner right you know like like when because because a lot of the new testament it's not just

00:42:44.120 the old the new testament that's i mean it's these guys who have this view they're not they're not

00:42:48.420 crazy i get it i get where it comes from but a lot of the new testament including peter's epistles

00:42:52.720 talks about you know being sojourners and strangers and aliens and i think that that's true

00:42:59.180 and it was particularly true of first century apostles like who were like at that time it's

00:43:07.320 like a ragtag team of disciples like vastly outnumbered by rome and and pharisees and

00:43:16.260 sadducees and i mean they were they were the minority they didn't have they weren't missionaries

00:43:22.100 from a christian land that could go patriots were not in control they were not in control at this

00:43:26.720 time you know they were very much not in control and and so like in that sense yeah like in rome

00:43:31.500 uh yeah you like at the time of peter as he's writing like very very much in exile yeah very

00:43:39.200 much a sojourner but here's the deal abraham um sojourned but this is what's so unique that a lot

00:43:45.520 of christians miss he was sojourning in a land uh that eventually he was he was destined to own

00:43:53.200 so abraham's sojourning but he's sojourning in a land where at that moment in time yeah he's

00:44:01.140 the minority he's the stranger he's the foreigner he's a sojourner but but his descendants they

00:44:08.200 become the rightful heirs the inhabitants so the very place where he sojourns he's not sojourning 0.95

00:44:15.080 so that he can be taken out he's sojourning so that he can go deeper in right so that it can all

00:44:20.880 be rendered unto him so he's not it's not so yet there is a sense even now i would say that that

00:44:26.020 continues what the apostles and first century christians experienced in rome uh that's still

00:44:30.220 being experienced in china that's still being experienced in and in some sense in the west

00:44:34.200 because right now we're in the midst of a very great apostasy and so throughout all of this

00:44:39.320 christian gospel age there are multiple places and times where christians will be a remnant and

00:44:46.420 and be on the losing in the minority and and feel like and for all intents and purposes will

00:44:51.560 literally be sojourners and exiles and and the foreigner the stranger in in a land but not but

00:44:57.820 they're not sojourning in a land to eventually be extracted from it they're sojourning in a land

00:45:03.840 that christ has promised they eventually will conquer yeah that's a difference well when you

00:45:08.460 trace the argue through hebrews because hebrews talks about um abraham being a sojourner um and

00:45:14.940 then hebrews 11 13 says these all died in faith not having received the things promised so abraham

00:45:20.960 did not receive what was promised to him but then you look one chapter over uh hebrews 12

00:45:26.640 it says this instead now that the writer i think paul turns to the christian and says abraham and

00:45:34.500 all those great men of faith, they died without having received what was promised. They were

00:45:39.140 looking always forward to the city that God had promised, the better city that God had promised.

00:45:44.220 And then in chapter 12, verse 22, he says, instead, you, but now you, have come to Mount Zion. And

00:45:53.420 there is a sense where because, and again, I don't have time to trace it here, but I make a real

00:45:58.700 big argument in the book that the the incarnation of christ tracing his genealogy as the true and

00:46:06.280 rightful king not just of david's throne but of adam's dominion privileges totally alters the game

00:46:13.480 yes and so where whereas everyone was looking forward to everything in the old testament

00:46:19.440 spiritual and physical the writer of hebrew says but now you have received your eschatological end

00:46:25.600 you have already come to the holy city mount zion you've already been brought in and when jesus tells

00:46:31.640 us to pray thy kingdom come that will be done that that is happening on earth as it is in heaven

00:46:37.260 that is happening like heaven is coming to earth yes and it's happening there is a sure there no

00:46:43.980 one's denying there is a final glorious eschaton like a a final heightened culmination yeah to that

00:46:52.920 that will happen at the end of the age with the final physical return of christ right nobody's

00:46:57.380 denying that um but to say that it happens in its fullness then and therefore because of that

00:47:03.500 it doesn't happen at all now is um to eisegete biblical text that's that's reading your own

00:47:10.680 assumption into the text uh jesus himself he even says that the kingdom of heaven is in your midst

00:47:18.980 it's upon you it's here it's here when jesus came it was here and he says what what shall what uh

00:47:25.300 to what shall i compare it it is like a mustard seed right which grows it doesn't just come at

00:47:31.140 the very end all at once you don't plant a mustard seed and then you know a year goes by and there's

00:47:36.060 nothing nothing nothing nothing and then one day you wake up boom there's a tree like that's not

00:47:40.380 how that's not how it works and and then you know jesus goes even further than that elsewhere in the

00:47:45.760 gospel narratives where he compares himself to a seat he says i tell you the truth unless a kernel

00:47:51.340 a seat goes into the earth and is buried yep was he did he was he buried in the tomb in the earth

00:47:57.620 like uh and unless it dies like the seed actually has to die in order for something else within it

00:48:05.860 to spring up and into life and so he says unless a kernel goes into the ground it is buried and dies

00:48:13.900 then it cannot produce life and then you compare that with his parable the mustard seed

00:48:20.420 and in where he's trying to say this is what the kingdom of god is like so it's it's something that

00:48:25.560 something comes like a seed goes into the earth and is buried and dies and it springs for something

00:48:32.500 else and it doesn't just happen at the very end all at once suddenly and cataclysmically but it

00:48:38.660 happens progressively, gradually, and steadily, slowly, over time, in the way that trees grow.

00:48:44.620 And so then what is that? Jesus. Ever since Jesus came, in his life, death, and resurrection,

00:48:51.700 the seed was successfully planted. And what we're experiencing from that point on, these last 2,000

00:48:58.360 years, and for however much longer the Lord chooses to tarry, what we're experiencing is the

00:49:04.040 kingdom of heaven coming progressively and gradually here to earth. And there's a fullness

00:49:11.240 in which we're awaiting at the end, but it's increasing progressively even now in real human

00:49:19.200 history. And so this world, in quite a literal sense, is our home. It really is our home. And

00:49:27.660 you might as well take off your hat and stay a while and and get to work right get to work like

00:49:34.340 this is like one day you know like to die is to be you know to be absent of the bodies to be present

00:49:39.580 with the lord so a spiritual immediate existence with the lord for all those who are redeemed upon

00:49:44.200 their physical death but eventually christ will return there'll be the resurrection of the dead

00:49:48.140 and and then i'm coming back to live here right here and and i would like to think that everything

00:49:54.880 that's done in faith here yep um that in some sense it may not be the exact form it'll probably

00:50:02.520 be a further glorified and redeemed form but every every good endeavor every good thing that's

00:50:09.640 that's accomplished that was done for the glory of god and done in faith a reliance on his grace

00:50:14.100 and a desire for his glory that those things i i really believe like will have some eternal

00:50:20.160 continuity and um and and will will continue i think they'll even be i honest i could be wrong

00:50:29.860 but not just you know that's the same mountain range i remember going to yosemite park but

00:50:34.360 like now it's incredible and awesome and glorified um but not just like geographic markers but

00:50:39.780 i think man-made cities yep like that's philadelphia you know like there's a lot of

00:50:45.800 work that needs to be done there good good i know because hebrews but but still like glorified and

00:50:51.400 like that was because that was a city the reason i mentioned philadelphia like is like american

00:50:56.280 cities you know or even like certain european cities like those were built initially by christians

00:51:01.440 right yep and there's some lasting characteristic peter talks about the elements being burned up

00:51:06.760 but and we have our our interpretation of that that it's a refining burning but hebrews again

00:51:13.520 And it's apocalyptic language is a shaking.

00:51:16.880 And the things that are sturdy don't get knocked over when the shaking happens.

00:51:21.460 And then Hebrews talks about how now is the time of shaking.

00:51:24.160 I think you're right, Joel.

00:51:25.260 I mean, there's not as much biblical evidence of it, but I do get into that a little bit

00:51:29.200 in the book also.

00:51:29.700 I think there is a sense where some things, like you say, will have been built on faith

00:51:34.200 and will survive the shaking and will endure even into eternity.

00:51:37.780 And what I've always said with Peter's epistle is, one, it's Peter.

00:51:40.840 I mean, the guy's not that smart.

00:51:42.500 it's the bible um no but like uh when he talks about you know like the uh that it'll be consumed

00:51:48.980 by fire you know um what i've always said with that is like peter it's not just that the scripture

00:51:54.840 says elsewhere but peter says elsewhere uh he speaks about what god did through the flood right

00:52:00.420 and he says like that god destroyed the world right and that language is utilized god destroyed

00:52:05.980 the world um through water and then he'll destroy it through fire and like and we would look at that

00:52:11.320 and we say um did god destroy the world yeah well in for all intents and purposes in the way that

00:52:17.480 that word's being used and god's you know god's purpose is what he means by destroy yes in a very

00:52:22.400 real sense god destroyed the word um by water but that doesn't mean that the world was literally

00:52:28.800 annihilated like like you know it does it's not like a some and the righteous endured yes and

00:52:35.000 the right exactly so when the world did that in that water shaped it reshaped the world in a in

00:52:40.640 a literal geographic sense you know maybe that's probably where we got the grand canyon and certain

00:52:44.880 things maybe even tectonic plates shifting and maybe i don't know like that like i'm not i'm not

00:52:50.060 a flat earther but i could i could be persuaded of like a pangea kind of thing like all the

00:52:54.060 continents together and the you know um and that also just being one because it kind of pairs up

00:52:59.220 nicely with the noaic covenant and then leading towards babel of like god saying like no you will

00:53:04.360 split up you will have nations i'm going to do it through uh confusing your languages i'm going to

00:53:09.600 literally uh put oceans in between you i'm gonna like you guys are not going to be globalist and

00:53:15.600 here we are christian saying oh so you're saying you want globalism so you're so you're telling me 0.52

00:53:23.720 gay multiculturalism is what you want i read you loud and clear god um it's i mean it's literally 0.83

00:53:28.560 comical when you think how far off but but anyways but the point is god destroyed the world through 0.76

00:53:33.900 water but he didn't destroy every single person or the ark right he preserved the righteous

00:53:40.040 preserved uh and then he started over with a completely new species of animals no no he kept

00:53:46.240 those species but then with them created more species glorified and maximized it um and god

00:53:53.340 replaced this you know floating rock in the sky you know there's a whole new planet nope same

00:53:57.380 planet reformed and cleansed purified and reshaped and even in some sense you could say glorified like

00:54:04.200 the majesty of like the just the the violent uh uh the violent aspect of the great torrents

00:54:11.220 you know of the deep and and all these you know geysers erupting because it's not just the water

00:54:16.420 that comes from above you know the canopy breaking but then also the waters of the deep under the

00:54:21.140 earth opening up and and the sheer shock and and shaking of that is probably uh part of the way

00:54:28.520 that we got mount everest and the grand canyon so like there's even like a geographic glory that

00:54:34.060 was accomplished by this judgment that made it better like we go to national you know parks to

00:54:40.560 witness things that might not have actually even existed if it weren't for the flood right so it's

00:54:45.100 like the land um was improved the people were certainly improved um the the animals were

00:54:52.320 improved but here's the thing all improved but also not replaced but preserved right improved

00:54:57.360 upon something preserved so who's to say if god destroyed the earth and that in that in a real

00:55:02.920 sense destroyed is a fair word it's the accurate word but we know he didn't replace it then who's

00:55:07.440 to say that that this destruction in the end of fire wouldn't be in the literal sense the same

00:55:13.000 kind of thing not a total replacement not a total annihilation but but a a a little burning away of

00:55:20.720 the wicked like the spoken of of a lake of fire so god visits he descends the fire consumes all

00:55:26.840 that is as michael was saying earlier the things that can be shaken the temporal that which is to

00:55:31.180 be burnt up the wicked themselves cast into the burning lake right and the righteous preserved

00:55:36.100 and established in the holy city amen i'll get weird for one second but i think it's good but

00:55:41.500 it's weird um right so like so christ you know all his enemies being made a footstool and as we

00:55:47.040 share in his kingship and his glorious priest a royal priesthood kings and priests that also his

00:55:52.380 enemies are going to be a footstool under our feet i i think that the earth in the same way that

00:55:56.760 water from the earth and and it came from above but also under the earth the great springs of the

00:56:01.140 deep opened up and and swallowed people up and and drowned them they died by water um and then you

00:56:07.800 also see this actually through biblical history when you think of aiken you know um and the in

00:56:12.120 the earth swallowing him up yeah i actually think that um i think the lake of fire will be under the

00:56:19.020 earth it'll be a physical place because we know the resurrection the bodily resurrection is not

00:56:23.660 just for the elect it's all but also for the damned the reprobate and and it's going to be

00:56:29.440 a physical conscious torment right and i actually think that the earth will likely open up in the 0.86

00:56:35.340 same way that once it produced water this time it'll be fire and and the dam will be taken down

00:56:40.780 below and we will have an eternal existence uh with the enemies of god under our feet

00:56:45.560 well the description 22 revelation 22 is a city and it says outside of the dogs the cowards the

00:56:52.380 immoral yeah that outside there's dark darkness the shapeless the dam the burning and then the

00:56:57.780 holy beautiful city of which god itself is its light so certainly like there's the imagery there

00:57:02.440 that we can look out into the chasms and into the darkness and see the wicked forever shut out of

00:57:07.280 the holy city and its light and its glory and its perfection yeah yeah all right let's hit our second

00:57:12.080 commercial break and when we come back we'll uh i want to tie this to a couple modern applications

00:57:17.480 and then we'll wrap things up okay all right the clock is running out you need to go and register

00:57:22.440 now for our christ is king how to defeat trash world conference it's happening the year of our

00:57:28.460 Lord, 2025, April 3rd, 4th, and 5th. That's a Thursday, Friday, and Saturday. And by God's

00:57:35.560 grace, we're able to provide for you an all-star lineup. We've got Steve Dace, Calvin Robinson,

00:57:41.620 Oren McIntyre, Dr. Stephen Wolfe, Eric Kahn, David Reese, Andrew Isker, John Harris, A.D. Robles,

00:57:49.160 Dan Burkholder, Dusty Devers, Ben Garrett, C.J. Engel, and yours truly, Pastor Joel Webin.

00:57:55.760 Come on out. Join us April 3rd, 4th, and 5th, 2025, Thursday through Saturday. Go to

00:58:02.960 rightresponseconference.com to register today. Again, that's rightresponseconference.com.

00:58:10.620 Listen, guys, you probably listen to Right Response Ministries because

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00:59:29.480 and all of finance for christendom all right welcome back so um we're gonna wrap things up

00:59:37.860 i'm gonna read a quote nathan this is going to be the last two quotes so i'll start with quote

00:59:42.000 five here. And I want to make the case that in previous times, Christians did think about

00:59:48.820 stewarding their nations for God's glory. So first a quote from the book and then a historical

00:59:53.560 example. So here I say, God commands all nations to use the land that he has given them. He commands

01:00:00.060 them even to organize themselves towards this end, that the earth may blossom in beauty and that the

01:00:04.660 people of those nations would take the resources in their specific land and produce things that

01:00:08.960 honor god it is good that nations lay down highways numbers 2017 and other infrastructure

01:00:14.740 it is good that they erect amazing buildings and undertake feats of engineering but the key point

01:00:20.060 that we see in psalm 72 which solomon wrote about how great it was that the the kings of the earth 0.69

01:00:25.980 were bringing their goods and their glories to jerusalem yeah queer treasures as revoice has said

01:00:33.460 do you remember that article no i don't i don't remember he wrote an article about how

01:00:38.860 same-sex gay christians will bring queer treasures oh my word by being like celibate

01:00:45.040 or whatever like their gift and treasure to bring it sorry for that no it's okay well that was a 0.99

01:00:49.360 lovely mental image too so that's what that's what you really should apologize for terrible

01:00:52.840 all right so um in song uh the key point that we see in psalm 72 is that rather than use their

01:00:59.680 accomplishments to glorify themselves they are to use those accomplishments to worship the one true 0.70

01:01:05.460 god and to direct all attention and focus to him and in a way this is the problem with babel right

01:01:12.220 babel was not inherently wrong in that they were attempting a great project of architecture and

01:01:19.600 building right they developed new technology exactly in line with how god has made us they

01:01:24.700 They learned bricks and tar instead of just the previous building technology that they had.

01:01:33.260 And the problem was that they used it for their own glory, to rebel against God.

01:01:38.660 A lot of times, the common misconception is that it's really a waste of time for a nation to accomplish something.

01:01:45.820 You think about the Cathedral de Sagrada Familia in Spain, which has been an over-two-century project.

01:01:53.300 and we've talked about this on the podcast before um like what an incredible pooling of resources

01:02:00.500 by a nation and a people to build something that hopefully would stand to the honor and glory of

01:02:07.460 christ right libertarians hardest hits that's right well even too there's no like financial

01:02:11.940 consideration like cathedrals were not built by private equity groups that's about the return

01:02:16.360 on their investment that's correct it was literally not like well we can make money on this great job

01:02:20.220 no tax maybe even a few indulgences right well there was some of that i remember cj like he

01:02:25.460 visited uh he he's you know he says it to like give himself a hard time not take himself too

01:02:29.920 seriously but he said like that he was visiting you know europe and and checking out all these

01:02:34.740 cathedrals but it was during his libertarian days okay and so he was like just walking around you

01:02:39.200 know frowning the whole time like i can't believe they spent tax dollars on this and he tells the

01:02:44.560 story now saying like like if you're wondering how gay libertarianism is let me tell you a story

01:02:49.640 about myself. Well, that's exactly the point. Like an individual family is never going to build the

01:02:56.520 Hoover Dam or Notre Dame or something like that. Like that is a national project to do these

01:03:02.520 things. And so this even gets into the question of, you know, who should be in charge of

01:03:08.380 infrastructure in a nation? I don't have a definitive position on this yet, but I think

01:03:14.220 there's a good case that insofar as these are projects that benefit the nation, it's not wrong

01:03:19.040 for the nation to bring those under a governmental organization like who else is going to build

01:03:23.440 the highway system across the united states or the railway system which by the way the railway

01:03:28.800 system was um a distinctly uh pushed forward as a way to achieve god's will of of taking dominion

01:03:40.820 of the west like there was there were some backers one of them was you know brigham young

01:03:45.200 unfortunately but it was fairly common to talk about the railroads west as our christian duty

01:03:52.140 to subdue the land that god has given to us um another example and nate you can put this quote

01:03:58.700 up this is from the mayflower compact um and this is this was their intention this was how they

01:04:04.500 stewarded what they hoped was going to be their new land they say have an undertaken for the glory

01:04:09.540 of god and advancement of the christian faith in honor of our king and country voyage to plant the

01:04:14.000 first colony in the northern parts of Virginia, do by these presence solemnly and mutually in the

01:04:19.560 presence of God and of one another covenant and combine ourselves together in a civil body

01:04:24.260 politic for our better ordering and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid by the

01:04:30.060 virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and frame such just and equal laws, ordinances, acts,

01:04:36.980 constitutions, and offices from time to time as shall be thought most meet, which means necessary,

01:04:42.020 and convenient for the general good of the colony unto which we promise all do submission and

01:04:47.640 obedience um and so they they were pledging the totality of their effort to really the overall

01:04:55.680 overarching purpose they were going to do things for the practical good they were going to pass

01:04:59.820 laws they were going to organize themselves in particular ways but it was all going to be for

01:05:04.160 the glory of christ amen and downtown new york and columbia university the library there that's

01:05:08.720 right over the quad it literally says uh it's for the advancement of the public good yeah and the

01:05:13.820 glory of almighty god yeah we're building this beautiful library in this rotunda you go inside

01:05:18.440 there's four pillars and it's a theology law medicine and art like it's these pillars holding

01:05:23.960 up society and emblazoned across the top in new york city to this day as we're doing this for

01:05:29.100 public good and the glory of almighty god amen yeah and well and it's it's almost trite now but

01:05:35.180 The founding universities in America all had in their mottos for honor of Christ and this sort of thing.

01:05:42.600 And, of course, the Puritans used language of like, we're building a city on a hill that will be a light to the world.

01:05:48.480 This is going to be not the New Jerusalem, but a New Jerusalem of sorts.

01:05:54.000 These Americas will be Christian colonies, Christian cities, Christian cathedrals that will be a light to the nations.

01:06:03.640 yep so all of that to say one kind of fallout of this is uh i mentioned it earlier it is quite

01:06:12.900 common now to assume that humans are the intruders i remember i was at a track meet for one of my

01:06:18.760 kids um two years ago and there was a snake um that was near where some of the people were sitting

01:06:25.880 and people were obviously concerned about it we didn't know what kind of snake it was but people

01:06:30.540 a little bit concerned about it and as we were leaving later on i remember one of the coaches

01:06:34.440 said well it's understandable we're in the snake's home right and it's like i get what you're saying

01:06:41.660 i don't want to be too pedantic here but no the snake actually is in our home and we have the

01:06:46.500 right to protect ourselves and to kill or relocate that snake like like the world is not

01:06:52.360 nature's it's not mother earth's it's not guys it belongs to us and we are to steward it

01:06:59.220 um the the buzzword a few years ago was creation care i don't know if you guys remember i remember

01:07:04.640 this whole thing creation care says protect the planet biblical stewardship stewardship says

01:07:10.240 subdue it build with it and offer the glory back to god and do it of course in a sustainable fashion

01:07:17.440 of course like yeah so like it it doesn't it doesn't mean that we you know burn tires in our

01:07:22.440 backyard on the lips you know like no like we don't want to be suicidal like this is the only

01:07:28.620 home we have and so you're doing all these in ways that are sustainable but like but when it's

01:07:33.780 done well you can harvest um you know thousands and thousands and millions of trees and actually

01:07:41.040 plant bigger forests that replace them you know so there's a way to you know to be a true

01:07:45.760 conservationist um but but not living as a guest but like this is my home and i'm also taking care

01:07:53.320 of it yep environmentalism and there's a change in public perception in this environmentalism is

01:07:58.540 actually a right-wing position it was occupied by the left for a while through the 80s and the 90s

01:08:02.620 and the 2000s but uh setting up a factory and not killing every form of life in the pond that's

01:08:08.300 right outside it right not polluting the air with all of your whatever it is that you're burning

01:08:13.100 like that's actually right wing if we're here for tradition we're here for the establishment

01:08:16.620 of the family we're here for the care of the church and ordering people towards earthly good

01:08:20.780 and heavenly good trash toxic chemicals all those things are very much so relevant interests now you

01:08:26.940 can do something like harnessing wind it's just economically even the fossil fuels required to

01:08:32.940 assemble the pieces to actually put these turbines in to say nothing of the birds they kill to say

01:08:37.260 nothing of disposal of them that doesn't mean that we go to wind and we go to solar price be

01:08:42.460 price be forgotten but it does mean generally speaking we actually care about what are we

01:08:46.860 putting into the environment how is this affecting individuals and saying it does matter right good

01:08:51.820 Good. So as we, you know, as we further the cause of Christian nationalism, it's at one hand a little bit daunting to say, man, we're not there until we're building the buildings to Christ's honor again, right?

01:09:05.380 It's not just passing an abortion law or, you know, whatever political—we talk a lot about politics and political gains on the show.

01:09:14.760 all of that is good but also like we are desiring that our nation that all the nations in the earth

01:09:21.040 really would direct their national effort in real tangible ways towards the glory of christ and so

01:09:27.020 we won't be discouraged that's the goal um that's what we're pushing towards and we want to see

01:09:31.420 reclaimed in our nation and we hope that missionaries will take up that cause and they'll

01:09:36.260 approach missions in a slightly different way too where they're building the seeds into evangelism

01:09:42.040 to other nations of we're not just saving two percent of you we're christianizing your nation

01:09:47.980 so that the totality of your action would glorify and honor christ right and we're and we're not

01:09:54.000 exporting uh we're trying to export the gospel and a christian foundation we're not exporting

01:09:59.800 um things that are are just not really rooted in the scripture but distinctions of our own culture

01:10:06.540 we're not exporting our sacred democracy like it's okay to do the work of an evangelist a

01:10:12.040 missionary and say this is the gospel this is the scripture this is the foundation for all of life

01:10:16.540 and then to still to let let that country be that country and like the reality is that if every

01:10:23.100 nation was christianized tomorrow um i am i am absolutely persuaded that they would still look

01:10:29.720 very distinct that some nations would have great glorious like they'd all have great glorious

01:10:34.940 cathedrals but they wouldn't all look the same right different nations would have different

01:10:38.240 colors and different architecture there'd be different forms of art there'd be uh different

01:10:42.260 cuisine there'd be like it's um like the bible says a lot and and none of us would ever deny

01:10:49.860 the sufficiency of scripture but the question that that that raises is the bible is sufficient

01:10:55.820 for what like we believe that it's sufficient for so that the man of god would be equipped for

01:11:00.960 every good work right so it's sufficient for character it's sufficient for morality and

01:11:06.660 certainly it's sufficient for salvation and heavenly things but the bible in its own claims

01:11:12.000 of sufficiency never say that it is so particular that is um that it's exclusively sufficient for

01:11:20.360 one type of architecture right so that um if two nations one in you mean we're not all supposed to

01:11:26.580 be using cubits right exactly so it's like one nation in sub-saharan africa and then one nation

01:11:31.620 in europe if they were both equally christian then they would both uh build the notre dame

01:11:36.380 cathedral like that the bible doesn't make that claim that's well japan has huge palaces right

01:11:42.460 they're built out of huge beams of wood and they look totally different than the the rock and brick

01:11:47.660 palaces in europe and yet they're still glorious yeah and that's part of the reason why like as we

01:11:52.680 have further innovation and travel and all these kinds of things like that's that's one of the

01:11:57.020 great glories like i would like for my grandkids to be able to go you know if they desire to to

01:12:02.880 like to visit japan and i would like it to still be japan right like like how disappointing would

01:12:07.500 that be to go and visit japan and uh there's no more samurai you know like there's no museums

01:12:14.360 there's no like no distinct style of dress it's all just american if i go to japan and it's just

01:12:19.720 like 10 black people 10 white people 10 you know latinos you know like and and then it looks like

01:12:25.960 dfw you know with just strip with just japanese instead of english like what are we doing it's

01:12:31.800 like i don't know like that's that's that's we should be able to see that as sad right so when

01:12:37.620 when we're not you know the biggest advocates of multiculturalism in every single nation right now

01:12:42.720 it's because we actually um it's because it's it's not just like it's not because we're against

01:12:48.760 multiculturalism in in the life to come like we actually not only do we think it's good but we

01:12:54.380 think that it must be preserved every tribe tongue and nation before the throne of the lamb

01:13:00.100 worshiping in unity and unison and at peace with one another um that can only be accomplished if

01:13:07.420 if distinct nations exist so thank you guys for tuning in last thing uh for today again it's the

01:13:14.760 day before our conference which starts tomorrow april 3rd 4th and 5th uh thursday friday and

01:13:20.940 saturday uh and i i just want to make sure that you guys are able to get the content if you would

01:13:26.700 like we are going to make the content available to the public eventually but it's going to be

01:13:31.480 you know coming off of the conference there's a lot of work and a lot of different you know

01:13:35.540 practical things that we have to get done. So it'll probably be a few weeks before we put out

01:13:39.840 even the first piece of content to the public, you know, on YouTube and X and those platforms.

01:13:45.060 And then what we're going to do is we're going to drip out slowly each individual piece of

01:13:51.820 content of which there will be 10, seven main sessions and three panels. And we're only going

01:13:57.300 to drip out one piece of content per week. So you're looking at probably three or four weeks

01:14:01.860 before even the first one comes and then having to wait one week you know so three or four weeks

01:14:05.660 to start and then 10 weeks to get all 10 pieces of content so um without exaggerating like you're

01:14:11.480 looking at you know quarter of a year three months um but if you want to get all of it now

01:14:17.340 ad free um uninterrupted and be able to to watch it at your own you can live stream it as it's

01:14:22.460 happening or you'll have the files and you'll be able to watch it at your leisure but to be able

01:14:27.000 to have access right away as it's happening, then you got to sign up and become a Patreon member.

01:14:34.060 We're making the live stream exclusively available to our gold tier Patreon members. So go to

01:14:39.820 patreon.com forward slash right response ministries, patreon.com forward slash right response

01:14:45.520 ministries. Thanks for tuning in. Love you guys. God bless.

01:14:57.000 Thank you.

The NXR Podcast - April 02, 2025

THE LIVESTREAM - Nations： Don’t Unite What God Divided

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