The NXR Podcast - THE LIVESTREAM - Red Heifers & The End Times with Dr. Taylor Marshall

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00:00:30 All right, today's episode, we are going to be talking about red heifers and the end times.

00:00:36 We are having as a special guest on this episode, Dr. Taylor Marshall, who in the province of God

00:00:42 decided to just roast John Calvin two hours before coming on our show, which the timing is

00:00:51 unfortunate. I don't appreciate that. I like Calvin. He does not. There are plenty of things

00:00:55 that we could debate, but we did not invite him on the show to debate. He's Catholic.

00:00:58 we're protestant um but there's one thing that we can agree on there's actually a lot of things but

00:01:04 there's one thing particular uh catholic protestant not liking dispensationalists and zionists boom

00:01:11 united so without further ado we're going to hop into the show and we're excited to have dr taylor

00:01:16 Marshall with us. We're back. We're so back. Some might say Dr. Taylor Marshall, thank you for

00:01:30 joining us on the show. Great to be here. Tell our listeners just a little bit about yourself

00:01:36 when you're not roasting John Calvin online. What are some of the other things that you're doing?

00:01:40 I think your audience may find it interesting. I grew up really nothing. My parents would have

00:01:47 been generally Protestant, had an evangelical conversion in middle school, kind of went on a

00:01:54 quest. What is the best denomination, form of Christianity? Eventually moved towards reform

00:02:00 theology in college, went to RUF, joined the PCA, went to Westminster Theological Seminary in

00:02:08 philadelphia graduated there but during that process um kind of became interested in what is

00:02:15 magisterial protestant theology church fathers uh scholastics thomas aquinas and became anglican

00:02:23 and was ordained episcopal priest and then thereafter became a catholic so that's my

00:02:29 background i'm married we have eight beautiful children and i run a podcast on youtube dr taylor

00:02:36 Marshall podcast. And I run the new St. Thomas Institute online courses. We have over 3,000

00:02:43 students and I've written about 12 books. All right. Did you mainly, I'm just curious,

00:02:50 did you mainly stop pastoring because of your convictions and being persuaded of Roman

00:02:57 Catholicism? And it's like, well, that ship sailed because I'm married and have children.

00:03:02 or i like if you could be married in the catholic church and be a priest would you still be a priest

00:03:08 or was it like no i i really wanted to leave the priesthood and and that ship you know like i had

00:03:13 already kind of hopped off of that vocation felt the lord calling me otherwise and then became

00:03:18 catholic well there's there's something called the pastoral provision in the catholic church so

00:03:23 if you're a former anglican clergy member you can apply for and actually when i became catholic i

00:03:29 was automatically brought in i became a candidate for orders and was set up to be ordained so if

00:03:34 you if you were married anglican priest and you become catholic you can be a married catholic

00:03:39 priest they usually give you a one two year preparation time extra seminary and then you

00:03:44 can come into the church so there's several dozen of those in the united states so i was in that

00:03:50 process and i discerned out of it when i was in the process and uh chose to be a layman i didn't

00:03:55 feel I had that vocation to be a Catholic priest or to be a married Catholic priest. So I did have

00:04:00 that option. I technically still have that option. I could call him up and say, hey, I want to

00:04:05 re-enroll and become a married Catholic priest. So it is allowed through that pastoral provision,

00:04:10 but I've discerned that's not my calling. That's interesting. Okay. Well, let's talk about

00:04:18 red heifers. Yes, let's do it. We're ready. It sounds like you just did a show, actually. You

00:04:23 were on Tim Pool talking about this. It was actually, I think, on Tim Pool's show that an

00:04:27 individual who kind of broke the news that this wasn't just a rehearsal in Texas, but they did it

00:04:33 for the real deal talking about it. So I'm going to turn it to you for the explanation. But before

00:04:36 we do that, I'm going to go ahead and show a clip that I think is really helpful with just the

00:04:40 visuals and an explanation. So this is one of two clips giving an overview. And I'd love to hear

00:04:44 from you, Dr. Marshall. We have some of the verses. What's kind of the theological basis for

00:04:49 this idea of the red heifer being needed to purify and cleanse Israel so the third temple can begin

00:04:53 and then getting into the Christian response to it. So let's play the clip. And as soon as we come 0.87

00:04:57 out of it, I'll turn it over to you to give kind of the theological foundations for why a lot of,

00:05:02 for certainly Jews, but really dispensationalists and evangelicals, why they view this as such an

00:05:06 important event as well. Breaking red heifer sacrifice update. The recent red heifer sacrifice

00:05:11 wasn't burned in a rehearsal. It was real. The red heifer people, they fooled everybody. So what

00:05:16 did was they said this is going to do a practice one according to adam king he has the ashes right

00:05:21 here red heifer ashes they ended up going out doing a real cow and that's tikva it was a real

00:05:27 offering they did it all by the laws byron stinson the christian evangelical texas cattleman we

00:05:32 interviewed in chrispiracy whose segment was banned from theaters worldwide raised the red heifers

00:05:38 and flew them to israel using government-backed loopholes and hundreds of thousands of dollars

00:05:43 he confirmed a perfect red heifer sacrificed in a perfect ceremony now that this happened the

00:05:49 messiah can come build the third temple in jerusalem this ritual is intended to restart 0.86

00:05:53 the millions of bloody temple animal sacrifices a system that jesus and the nazarenes turned the 0.71

00:05:59 tables against the priests trained for this ceremony were groomed from childhood forbidden 0.67

00:06:04 from going outside and not even allowed to touch the earth they have to be of a specific bloodline

00:06:09 they raise these children in like these elevated homes above the ground and they never leave the

00:06:13 home until they're ready to do the rituals. So the priest who did this literally lived in his home

00:06:18 for over 20 years. Never left? Nope, because he was born to do this ritual. Some say a twisted

00:06:23 and deeply abusive path masked as purity. And this one cow, Tikva, flown from Texas,

00:06:29 sacrificed in secret, is now at the center of prophetic claims and miracle rumors. There's

00:06:34 going to be miraculous healings as a result of this ritual. Some, like Adam King, are claiming

00:06:39 her ashes are healing people around the world. This is the stuff right here. They have been

00:06:44 sprinkling on people. A man with Alzheimer's who just started remembering everything, sight to the

00:06:48 blind. There's some real miracles that have happened since this has gone down. What do we

00:06:55 think? It's ridiculous. First off, that wasn't done according to the Mosaic precepts. We know 0.99

00:07:02 that because there's no temple uh there is no altar um that whatever they showed in that clip

00:07:08 there that wasn't the mosaic altar we've read the pentateuch we know what's what's described there

00:07:14 so it's it's not valid it's not true and it couldn't be valid because we live in the new

00:07:19 covenant and jesus christ instituted the new and everlasting covenant he said so at the last supper

00:07:25 so if you read the epistle to the hebrews you realize that the blood of bulls and goats

00:07:31 cannot remit sin. They cannot bring about any covenantal blessings anymore. Why? Because

00:07:36 the son of God incarnate of the Virgin Mary has already offered the one holy propitiatory

00:07:43 sacrifice. So, you know, I watched that. I said before we went live, I'm actually a cattle rancher

00:07:48 myself. I had a red heifer born on my property two days ago. I raise a red Angus beef, regenerative

00:07:55 red Angus beef. So I've got lots of red heifers. The Zionists can't have them. The Jews can't have

00:08:00 them. They're Talmud free. Um, we raise them because we like ribeyes and steaks and, uh, 1.00

00:08:06 healthy meats. Uh, and there's a lot of people in Texas that have red heifers. Like people think

00:08:10 red heifers are these magical things. I mean, I could take you outside my window right now and

00:08:15 show you 40 of them. So yeah, this is not, this is not mosaic. This is superstitious. And honestly,

00:08:21 I would say that this is antichrist because, uh, you know, the epistles of John per second,

00:08:26 John, they talk about, you know, if you reject the son, you don't have the father. Anyone who

00:08:32 rejects the son does not have the father. And John says that is the spirit of Antichrist. And so what

00:08:38 you're seeing on the screen right there is actually anti-Christianity because it is dissolving. It is

00:08:47 seeking to undermine the new and everlasting covenant in the blood of Jesus Christ. All of

00:08:55 those animal sacrifices were foreshadowing and pointing forward to the cross of jesus christ so

00:09:03 any christian who wants to get on board with this they are thomas aquinas would say they're

00:09:09 committing apostasy thomas aquinas says any if any christian practices the precepts of the mosaic

00:09:17 covenant he's denying the incarnation that's a pretty serious thing to do yeah i feel like that's

00:09:24 the entirety of the book of hebrews like the whole book of hebrews is don't go back to judaism and

00:09:31 you know the whole thing is like don't hedge your bets i remember preaching through hebrews um a year

00:09:36 two years ago maybe and um and the whole thing was i if you go back uh there's nothing but fire

00:09:43 uh waiting for you and and i personally you know the way that um i would interpret that is i think

00:09:48 certainly the the eternal and the spiritual sense hebrews 6 and hebrews 10 these covenantal texts

00:09:53 But then also, I think that part of what the apostle is getting at,

00:09:59 whoever it is, I tend to think it's Paul,

00:10:01 but whoever it is that wrote the book of Hebrews,

00:10:03 I think he also knows that by apostolic revelation

00:10:07 that Jerusalem is about to get sacked. 0.55

00:10:11 So it's not just like that fire is awaiting you, the fire of hell,

00:10:14 because you're hedging your bets and you're not trusting in Christ

00:10:17 and his finished work, and you're going back

00:10:20 and kind of hedging your bets with Judaism,

00:10:21 but also that uh god is about to uh by providence through titus he's going to destroy jerusalem

00:10:28 there's literally going to be fire and billows of smoke you know in that language that we see

00:10:33 like joel 2 uses the language you know clouds of smoke isaiah there's there's different portions

00:10:37 smoke um and then you know we see that in matthew chapter 24 and all of that discourse with christ

00:10:43 himself and this is not uh heavenly language this is not you know there's going to be pretty clouds

00:10:48 with little baby angels playing, you know, chair, you know, playing harps. Um, it's, uh, it's the

00:10:54 clouds of desolation and destruction. It's, it's when buildings collapse and, um, it's judgment

00:11:00 language. Uh, Isaiah is using judgment language. Joel too is using judgment language. And, uh,

00:11:06 and that's kind of that, that's what was awaiting anybody. So there, to me, it seems like there

00:11:10 were like two, two realities, the spiritual eternal reality, but then also the temporal,

00:11:14 reality that for those who were not trusting fully in Christ, they would be the ones who

00:11:22 would be most inclined to remain in Jerusalem.

00:11:25 Even when they saw desolation coming, they would be trusting in the temple and trusting

00:11:31 in the old priestly ordinance and these kinds of things.

00:11:34 That would cause them geographically to stay put, whereas those who saw these things coming

00:11:41 to pass, and remember the words of Christ, this generation will not pass away until these things

00:11:45 come to pass. Remember, no, Jesus said that this was going to happen, that not one stone would be

00:11:50 left on another, that they would be more inclined to, if they were Christians, to believe that Jesus

00:11:56 actually is the Messiah, he actually is the Son of God, and not just to believe upon him for

00:12:03 eternal life, but even temporally, they would be the ones most inclined to say, there's nothing

00:12:08 here for us in jerusalem if the whole thing's being destroyed jesus the son of god said it

00:12:14 would happen let's get out of dodge you know and um so yeah it just i i feel like there's there's

00:12:19 so many whether it's hebrews or multiple you know different uh passages in the new testament

00:12:24 it just seems like there's such a finality that um this old covenant is done like a garment being

00:12:29 rolled up it's it's done away with and the idea that um that all of the christian church in the

00:12:35 last 2000 years is just this parenthetical, you know, God's real plan is with Israel. And then

00:12:40 he has his side B plan. It's this parentheses, you know, until he can really get back to the

00:12:45 project he cares about and pick things back up with Israel. Um, that's just a terrible way of 0.91

00:12:51 reading scripture. And it's a terrible way to, to view the Christian church. What do you think? 0.92

00:12:59 Yeah, I agree. And I'm glad you brought up the epistle to Hebrews. I also believe Paul's the

00:13:03 author. Maybe he didn't write it, but he's the author of there. And I think it's Hebrews 6,

00:13:07 you know, where it talks about apostasy. And I don't know exactly, you know, depending on which

00:13:12 translation or anything, but, you know, it says there, there does not remain a sacrifice for sin.

00:13:18 The idea is there are no sacrifices for sin after the sacrifice by the high priest, Jesus Christ,

00:13:26 enters once into the Holy of Holies and offers the blood of propitiation. Like,

00:13:31 it can't be any more clear and then of course the all of that discourse which you mentioned but

00:13:36 you know i would guide us over to the book of revelation the apocalypse we see over and over

00:13:43 again the language of the whore of babylon i don't know what your eschatology is but if you read the 0.97

00:13:48 language around the whore of babylon and you read about the nuptial discussions of judgment of 0.99

00:13:54 jerusalem in the prophet ezekiel jerusalem is the horrible is that is that your take yeah yes of 0.96

00:14:01 course i wrote a book called antichrist and apocalypse and it gives the early church you

00:14:06 know it's kind of a preterist and futurist approach i don't know you're you know full

00:14:10 and historicist approach there's many levels going on there but i'm a partial preterist

00:14:14 post-millennial in my eschatology so okay um one of the verses in there it talks about the great

00:14:21 city, he calls it Sodom in Egypt, and then it adds this identifier where our Lord was crucified.

00:14:30 That means Jerusalem is Egypt. Jerusalem is Sodom. Jerusalem is the whore of Babylon. 0.79

00:14:37 And when you read Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, and then you read the apocalypse, 0.98

00:14:44 the book of revelation you see with new eyes you realize that this is the judgment of adulterous 0.86

00:14:53 jerusalem and this is why there is a new jerusalem and you know both hebrews and the apocalypse

00:15:01 in the catholic tradition we call the book of revelation apocalypse that's the greek word

00:15:05 in both hebrews and a pot and the apocalypse you see the language of mount zion but it's totally

00:15:13 transformed. Like you can kind of jokingly say, Joe, like we are the true Zionist, but we don't

00:15:17 believe that Zion or Jerusalem is the dusty town in the Middle East. We believe in the true Mount

00:15:24 Zion. And Hebrews talks about, you know, how we're on Mount Zion. We're surrounded by a cloud of

00:15:30 witness. It's this celestial, beautiful connection between heaven and earth with the throne room of

00:15:35 God. And then you go over to the book of Revelation. What do you see in the opening chapters?

00:15:39 the throne room of god and there's an altar there and on the altar is the lamb of god jesus christ

00:15:46 and it's surrounded by 24 presbyters and the four beasts all of the imagery of the old testament has

00:15:54 been fulfilled and it's a heavenly reality that is real right now right it's right now real and so

00:16:02 when you see dispensational evangelicals and they want to bring in a red heifer or they want to

00:16:08 rebuild a third temple, and they think that that dusty town is the true Mount Zion, they are

00:16:16 completely neglecting the epistle of the Hebrews, completely rejecting the Olivet Discourse. Also,

00:16:22 they're rejecting Galatians, and they're rejecting the book of Revelation. It's just like, you guys

00:16:27 are wrongly dividing the word of God, and it's leading you to apostasy. Honestly, Joel, I think

00:16:33 we need to get to the point if you're a magisterial protestant or a catholic or eastern orthodox

00:16:39 this isn't just bad theology it's not just heresy if we're going to use the language of the epistle 0.78

00:16:46 of hebrews it is apostasy in galatians you're cutting yourself off like judaizing is apostasy

00:16:55 it's not just like bad theology oh you guys are a little bit different you know your theology is 0.76

00:16:59 different you know should we use the language of apostasy cutting yourself off i mean what do you

00:17:05 guys think on that i know it's no i yeah it's it's strong language but um but i feel like i mean if

00:17:13 you had asked me that five years ago i would have you know i wasn't a dispensationalist even five

00:17:17 years ago um i was much more covenantal in in my uh theology but i i would have probably said okay

00:17:23 yeah but you know dispensationalism it's wrong but it's you know it's in terms of theological

00:17:29 triage it's not a primary issue and so i'm not going to um i'm not going to call it heresy um

00:17:34 but man i feel like recently over the last few years just looking at the fruit you know like

00:17:40 you can get a decent idea of of how dangerous a particular ideology is or a particular doctrine

00:17:46 in terms of what it drives people to do um and right now like what i see again and again and

00:17:53 again is when pressed when really really pressed it seems like not everybody i'm not going to

00:17:58 lump everybody into the same category, but there are a lot of guys who, um, if they have to choose

00:18:05 their highest devotion is to Israel, like, like the modern state of Israel. Um, not the true

00:18:13 Israel, not, not certainly not Christ who is the root and, and those of us who have been grafted 0.78

00:18:18 in. Um, it's not the true Israel of God. It's this, it's this place in the middle East, uh, 0.96

00:18:23 with this particular people. Um, and I, yeah, it just seems like, what, what are you,

00:18:29 where's your allegiance? What, what is your devotion? Um, you know, blood and soil for

00:18:34 thee, you know, for Israel, but not for any Western country, every Western country, you 0.94

00:18:39 can't have borders. You have to have limitless immigration, you know, concocted and designed 0.93

00:18:44 by your, you know, traitorous, uh, elites to be from, you know, the third world. Um, 1.00

00:18:50 you can't have a people, you can't have a place. Uh, it's yeah. And, and when I look at it like

00:18:55 that, you know, I, I would have told you, you know, if you asked me even just a couple of years,

00:19:00 I would, I would say, oh, well the, you know, the battle is between, you know, Democrats and

00:19:04 Republicans, you know, or, and then I would have said, you know, the neocons and this, and now I

00:19:09 look at the world and I'm like, nah, it's, it seems like it really is a battle, um, between

00:19:16 christ in chaos it's uh it's it's religious battle and it's a battle for civilization and

00:19:22 it's a battle for are you allowed to um are you allowed to believe upon the lord jesus christ to

00:19:27 have not just jesus in your heart right they're fine with that our elites our overlords they're

00:19:32 fine with a private faith but but the idea of uh christ in the public square uh that it's you know

00:19:39 that it's not demos the people uh that's ultimately the god of a society but it's it's theos like i

00:19:45 i'm a christian theocrat i i think theocracy is great it's not whether but which you're going to

00:19:50 have a god um i would like it to be the triune god and and i i don't know where you're at um i

00:19:57 don't want to get you in trouble but i i personally um i'm of the persuasion and i think we have this

00:20:02 even in americans history history so i think it's not only christian but i think it's thoroughly

00:20:07 historically american um i don't believe we should allow for public expressions of blasphemy

00:20:12 and idolatry um so i i don't think it's like uh the secret police rounding up muslims in their

00:20:17 home or mistreating people but no there should not be um muslim prayer sirens in an american town

00:20:24 i think that that's um i think that's absurd i think that's an offense to for us to cry god 0.91

00:20:30 bless america as we promote public idolatry and even when i think of religious freedom it's like

00:20:36 wait a second like number one i don't think that's what the founders had in mind i think

00:20:41 they're thinking of, you know, freedom of conscience for, you know, different denominations

00:20:46 of our common Lord. But I don't think they're thinking religious freedom for Buddha and for

00:20:52 Hinduism and for Islam and for atheism. But then number two, if that is what we're going to insist

00:21:00 upon religious freedom being, that religious freedom is any religion, false religions, 0.67

00:21:05 then religious freedom is a damnable offense. Because what you're saying is that

00:21:11 our nation should constitutionally protect, not religious freedom, but idolatry freedom,

00:21:17 freedom of idolatry. No, no. So I'm at the point now where I feel like, yeah, if it's, 0.64

00:21:26 and that's what I see from the dispensationalist, getting back to your question, 0.66

00:21:29 the Zionist, is everything is liberalism for all the West, whether it's European countries or

00:21:36 whether it's America. It's liberalism. And I've described it like this. Liberalism seems to be

00:21:41 the car and the engine is this full-fledged, forced, total egalitarianism. And it's not just

00:21:49 men and women. Only men can be priests or pastors. Everybody thinks egalitarianism is just men and

00:21:55 women. But I mean all the way around, that every individual has the same potential, and everybody

00:21:59 can be the same. And all peoples are the same. Haitians are the same, and these people are the

00:22:05 same. These people are the same. Egalitarianism all the way around. And I feel like, I don't 0.99

00:22:10 want to get you in trouble, but I feel like liberalism is, I'm coming to realize, I think 0.85

00:22:15 liberalism is largely a Jewish project for the West, but it never applies to them. When it comes 0.92

00:22:21 to Israel, it's not liberalism. It's not all-inclusive. It's not egalitarian. When it comes

00:22:28 to israel it's people place blood soil this religion not other religions um but then for

00:22:36 the rest of the west it's egalitarianism well don't don't be mean you know like the orcs are

00:22:41 at the door well don't be a racist let them in you know and and it's like i don't yeah so at this

00:22:47 point i i just feel like every dispensationalist i meet is um they have the same talking points

00:22:54 as the guys who aren't Christian, guys who actually are practicing Jews. And so I feel

00:23:00 like there seems to be more in common at this point in terms of their plan for the world,

00:23:04 their plan for America, their politics, their view of culture. And so at a certain point,

00:23:11 when that's the fruit, I think it does get you wondering, like, is this secondary? Is this a

00:23:16 secondary doctrine? Or is this another religion? I'm kind of at the point where I feel like

00:23:21 judeo-christianity is another real religion it's against christ

00:23:29 thoughts yeah you put your finger on a lot of good points and i have a book coming out

00:23:34 hopefully we can talk about it later yeah talk about it now we'll pull it up

00:23:38 yeah let's show that image but you got you guys talk about christian nationalism and that's that's

00:23:42 kind of what i'm going for here but it's it's more rooted in the natural law augustinian you know

00:23:49 thomist thomas aquinas tradition of virtue ethics and i open up the book and i say look

00:23:55 if you talk to like an american and you say you know do you think jewish people in israel like

00:24:00 they should have uh jewish customs jewish neighborhoods jewish laws you know favor yeah

00:24:08 yeah that's that's cool israel that yeah israel's jewish okay what about a muslim country you know

00:24:13 Saudi Arabia, Jordan, should they have Muslim culture, Muslim schools, you know, Muslim laws?

00:24:19 Yeah, that's cool. They say a Christian majority nation. So they have Christian customs. No, no,

00:24:24 no, that's fascist. You can't do that. So, you know, definitely with the Jews, but also with

00:24:29 the Muslims, you know, you have liberals in America saying, well, yeah, Muslim neighborhoods

00:24:33 should have Sharia law and Hindu neighborhoods should have these giant, you know, weird false

00:24:39 gods and deities idols people talk like this but as soon as you say well we should have a christian

00:24:45 culture and christian norms they freak out and they say it's fascist and that show that's lifting

00:24:52 up the rock and seeing all the demonic bugs underneath that's what's going on here right

00:24:57 and so you know the the separation of church and state that's probably the blackest most jagged

00:25:03 pill in the book christian patriot because i'm really challenging christians whether you're

00:25:07 catholic or protestant eastern orthodox let's go back and look at thomas jefferson as a man

00:25:13 his theology his philosophy and it's pretty joel it's pretty scandalous you look at his personal

00:25:20 life um by the way separation of church and state the wall he calls it the wall separation of church

00:25:25 is in a letter that he wrote to baptists sorry joel baptist and he also published the jeffersonian

00:25:35 Bible, in which he was like a, you know, historical critical analysis. He went through

00:25:39 with a black highlighter and just arced out all these verses. He explicitly rejected the divinity

00:25:46 of Jesus. Thomas Jefferson explicitly rejected the resurrection of Christ from the dead.

00:25:52 So Thomas Jefferson would be someone that we as Christians would look at as an apostate,

00:25:59 heretic, liberal enemy of the gospel. And yet we have all these people saying, oh, Thomas Jefferson,

00:26:08 I learned it in high school. You know, we had all these bad things in the history of Christianity.

00:26:11 You know, there was inquisition and crusades. I was all so evil and unprovoked. And thanks be to

00:26:18 God, Thomas Jefferson, you know, like the Holy Ghost descended on him like a dove. And he was

00:26:23 like the separation of church and state. You know, that's literally the only thing you learn in social

00:26:28 studies or civics in public school is, you know, you don't worry about the amendments or the

00:26:33 constitution. You learn about the separation of church and state. And that's how I opened the

00:26:36 book. And I want Christians to rethink, are we really going to, to accept the Jeffersonian 0.97

00:26:43 consensus for the, if Christ isn't returned for the next 500 years, are we really committed to

00:26:48 that? And you look in the book, I also say in the 1950s, after world war II, men came back from war,

00:26:56 Europe, America, and I'm like, man, that was rough. So what we're going to do is we're going

00:27:00 to have a gentleman's agreement, all of your, you know, entrenched, firm beliefs, keep those in

00:27:06 private. And we're going to have a gentleman's agreement that we're all going to be just

00:27:10 rational and prudent in the public square. So don't bring, you already kind of said this,

00:27:14 don't bring your Christianity out in public, keep it in your heart, keep it in your closet. 0.78

00:27:19 And we promise that we're all just going to be rational gentlemen. 0.80

00:27:22 and as soon as christians took that deal what happened it created an enormous vacuum in the

00:27:28 universities in the hospitals in politics in media in film it created this huge vacuum

00:27:35 and did they act in accord to natural law and prudence and reason no no it filled in with

00:27:44 secular a new secular religion another religion yeah they started building the structures in the

00:27:50 universities and in the libraries and you know eventually marching pride parade down main street

00:27:57 they immediately filled that and here's their here's their trick we're not a religion

00:28:01 we're not a religion religion they have their own feast days they have their own saints they

00:28:06 got george floyd they got their martyrs they don't they have their own inquisition they can cancel

00:28:11 you which is their equivalent of excommunication you can lose your job you can lose every you can

00:28:16 lose your bank account they can freeze it they are they have a stranglehold on society and there's

00:28:21 a lot of christians you know from the silent generation boomers i'm gen x that are kind of

00:28:28 like well we still have that commitment to just be you know republicans the democrats will come

00:28:32 to the table and we'll all just be fair we'll be neutral right and it's one of the things i learned

00:28:39 when i was a protestant you know cornegas van till right there is no myth of neutrality right

00:28:43 There is no neutrality. Everybody has their presuppositions. And even if they say,

00:28:48 I don't have a religion, they are operating from a form of religion. And so what we need to do as

00:28:53 Christians is we have to say, no, we will be a Christian society. We will impose a Christian 1.00

00:29:00 society. Now that's kind of hard for people to see. And I'm not saying, and in the book, 1.00

00:29:05 I clarify, we're not going to force people to be baptized. We're not going to coerce people to say,

00:29:10 i believe in jesus when they don't believe it all right we're not doing that but we are going to say

00:29:16 we are going to have blasphemy you should not say jc in a movie over and over and over it's not

00:29:21 necessary you should not have soft porn or even full porn in movies in the public display we

00:29:28 should not be having parades down main street for degeneracy and so the book is really challenging

00:29:35 christians to say what is culture what is society and you guys already know i mean socrates said it

00:29:40 Plato said it. Aristotle said it. It's in the Old Testament. It's in the New Testament. John

00:29:44 Adams said it. A nation is the collection of families. That's right. That's a family writ

00:29:50 large. Yes, it is a federation of families. And if you came into my house, you would see

00:29:59 a crucifix, right? I'm a Catholic. You might see a statue of Mary. You might get mad about that.

00:30:04 You'd see a Bible. You might see like an icon of John the Baptist. And you would say, oh,

00:30:09 this is a Catholic family. And then we pray, we make the sign of the cross. If someone came in 0.88

00:30:14 my house, I'm like, no, no, no, you can't be Christian. Take that cross down. Don't pray in 1.00

00:30:18 front of me. I'd be like, get the heck out of my house. Right. As for me in my house, we serve the 0.92

00:30:22 Lord. This is a Christian home. This is what we do in a Christian home. And if they came in and

00:30:27 said, well, we want to redefine the meaning of marriage for you and your wife, I'd be like,

00:30:31 get the heck out of here. And once we understand that a nation is a collection, a federation of

00:30:37 families, we just take that same principle and we extrapolate it out to the nation.

00:30:42 Right.

00:30:42 So if we Christians can redefine, not redefine, go back to the original meaning of a country,

00:30:49 a patria, a fatherland, and we understand it as a federation of families, and we as a family

00:30:55 honor Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is first. He's the King of Kings. He's the Lord of Lords.

00:31:00 He is the King of all society, whether you like it or not. He is King.

00:31:05 we as christians can impose and insist that we be treated as christians and that our homes and

00:31:14 our neighborhoods and our counties and our states and our nation are places of christian decency

00:31:21 until we get to that we will continue to be on our back heel we will continue to lose the culture

00:31:27 war because you can't fight chaos without logos and jesus is the logo so until we accept that

00:31:35 And that goes for Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox, until you shift that way of thinking and reject Thomas Jefferson.

00:31:42 Until you get there, you're not going to get it. 0.79

00:31:45 And then the Israel thing is, basically, that's Christians abandoning Christian society and pushing all their chips in on Israel society. 0.93

00:31:56 So you have the problem, you know, not only at home, but now you're building this other problem over there. 0.91

00:32:00 So we really have to get back to what does it mean to have a Christian patria, a fatherland.

00:32:07 And that's why I'm not using the word Christian nationalism.

00:32:10 And I want to challenge you guys as well. 0.96

00:32:13 Nationalism comes from natus.

00:32:14 It means to be born.

00:32:16 That's not good enough.

00:32:18 Patria is the Latin word meaning fatherland.

00:32:20 It's based on the commandment, honor your father and mother.

00:32:24 Thomas Aquinas says patria is part of the virtue of justice.

00:32:27 It's honoring your father and mother.

00:32:28 patria is the inheritance from your father you know it's faith of our fathers it's it's yes it's

00:32:35 land but it's also blood and so in the book i'm i'm kind of saying i'm suggesting to a catholic

00:32:40 audience annual protestant audience christian nationalism it already has some baggage of it

00:32:46 because it's too close to nazi there's those arguments but patriotism and the word patria

00:32:51 relates to a much older Christian idea of what it means to be a citizen. And it also links us to

00:32:59 our father, Pater, our genealogical fathers, but also God the Father. So there's kind of a,

00:33:06 I think there's a tighter theology. I think it's more successful in a rhetorical

00:33:10 combatant situation. I think it also is easier to catechize people with.

00:33:15 so that's that's the book christian patriot and it relates of course at home but also to

00:33:21 our israel problem cool nathan put it up real quick on the screen so they can see it christian

00:33:27 patriot here it is we've got a family we've got a family uh three kids they're walking to church

00:33:33 like that's it like if you can't convert you have to convert your own heart and you have to convert

00:33:38 your family once we convert our families then those are the lego blocks by which we build a

00:33:44 christian nation that that's the only way it has to be in that order yeah i i think that's true um

00:33:49 i think that's also um the reverse order is how they uh unbuilt the lego blocks so i think like

00:33:55 the whole time you're talking about you know the nation is is just the family writ large i agree

00:34:00 with that entirely um the problem is so like a family can have new members right it's like you

00:34:06 you sit down with the dinner table right we our family have five children and we'll see if the

00:34:11 Lord gives us more. But, you know, each time you're sitting down, you know, with mom and the

00:34:17 kids and you're like, guess what? You know, telling the kids for the first time, you're going to have

00:34:21 a baby brother, you know, like, yeah. Your three-year-olds, you know, so excited about, you

00:34:27 know, their sixth sibling, you know, which is such a wonderful thing. That's, you know, addition,

00:34:33 right? That's addition. And you can even outside, like I was adopted, right? So adoption, the Bible

00:34:40 there's a category for adoption. But what do you do when, you know, the nation is the family writ

00:34:46 large, but what do you do when you've mixed all the families of the earth? What do you do when 0.99

00:34:51 it's, it's not assimilation, it's not adoption, it's not like, hey, we have 300, you know, million

00:34:56 people, and we're going to adopt 3 million, 1%. You know, we're going to bring them in, and over

00:35:03 the course of three generations, it'll take about, you know, 60 to 100 years, but over the course of

00:35:08 generation, and they're going to be catechized into the Christian faith and into American culture.

00:35:14 And then three generations from now, our grandkids will be able to look at their grandkids

00:35:19 that are not their grandkids, but their neighbors who are from this other country,

00:35:25 their grandparents were, but they'll be able to say, hey, look, our grandparents fought in the

00:35:28 same war. We both celebrate Thanksgiving together. We celebrate the founding. We love the Lord Jesus

00:35:34 Christ. We worship the triune God. We don't blaspheme him. If anybody publicly blasphemes 1.00

00:35:39 him, we both writhe in anger together. That's great. That's not what we have. America is cooked.

00:35:47 We are so cooked. Oh my goodness. I'm post-millennial, so I believe that we win,

00:35:54 and I don't just believe we win in the bottom of the ninth. I don't believe that Christ,

00:35:58 who is head of the church, that he wins despite a weak losing church. I think Christ, who is head

00:36:03 of the church wins through his body gradually in human history throughout this gospel age.

00:36:11 So I actually think that Christ will win through the church, not despite a weak church, but through

00:36:16 a victorious church, and that'll happen gradually. Mustard seed growing into an all-earth-encompassing

00:36:23 tree, a little bit of leaven working its way through the whole batch of dough. But that said,

00:36:27 it's kind of like the stock market, right? You look back 100 years and it's like, dude,

00:36:31 who wouldn't play the stock market this is great it always goes up okay but but in a in a short

00:36:35 frame you're like oh my goodness we're getting wrecked and i feel like like right like we've

00:36:41 kind of you know it's oh man we've been in uh an eight-year dip we've been in a no we've been in

00:36:46 like a 350 400 year dip like we've been in a heck of a dip and and so my point is like when i think

00:36:52 of it's not just the neocons it's not just the democrats like i will never vote for a democrat

00:36:57 So I don't want to say that Democrats are on the table now.

00:37:01 No, those are problems.

00:37:03 But to me, it's a civilizational battle.

00:37:07 It's religion and people.

00:37:09 It's faith and people.

00:37:10 It's people and faith.

00:37:12 And so that's the beauty of the Christian religion.

00:37:15 It is a universal religion.

00:37:16 I believe every tribe, tongue, and nation will come to know the Lord Jesus Christ. 1.00

00:37:21 but until they do when you're importing millions and millions of indians who do not love jesus 1.00

00:37:31 they are hindus they worship false gods and and and here's the thing like so you're getting you 0.99

00:37:36 know patra you know a father they don't have the same father they don't have god as their father 0.86

00:37:42 in the spiritual sense they also they don't have george washington or the or the uh the founders

00:37:48 They don't have the same human fathers, the same spiritual divine father.

00:37:53 And it's one thing if it's adoption.

00:37:55 You know what I mean?

00:37:56 There's a mom, there's a dad, there's four natural siblings,

00:37:59 and we're adopting the fifth.

00:38:00 And everyone's excited.

00:38:01 We're going to work together.

00:38:02 They're going to become a part of our family.

00:38:04 But when you start dumping in mass, I mean, in four years with Biden's administration,

00:38:10 and this is just the documented ones, like 9, 10 million or 12 million,

00:38:15 it was like three that were legal and nine that were illegal. That doesn't even count the ones

00:38:19 that are undocumented. For all we know, we had an influx of like 20, maybe 30, maybe 40 million

00:38:26 people. So you're not talking 1%. You're talking all of a sudden 10 plus percent of the total

00:38:31 populace of a nation and imported that are, they're not the same people. They're not from 1.00

00:38:38 the same family, not biologically, not in terms of human tradition, and also not the same faith.

00:38:43 and and so that's where i'm like i look at that and and i agree with everything that you're saying

00:38:49 although i i'm fine with with the term christian national i do i i understand i think there's a

00:38:54 prudence there i do think that it's um right innocent as doves shrewd as serpents so i i

00:38:59 think there's a good strategy there i can get behind the strategy but i i like christian

00:39:03 nationalism christian patriotism i can get behind that too um but i look at our nation and i'm like

00:39:09 like we um the religious pluralism the the multiculturalism the you know our principled

00:39:18 pluralism of drag queen story out all these kinds of things um i feel like it's cromwell would be

00:39:25 maybe you know a better version but i don't know um somebody somebody's gonna have to come in

00:39:32 and uh get rid of like a ton of people like a ton of people for this to even happen because

00:39:39 because otherwise i think we're just doing it's still propositional nationhood so it's it's apple

00:39:45 pie declaration of independence and also now we'll add the apostles creed you know

00:39:50 but you're not really a family you're not a family these are not my brothers if they truly

00:39:57 convert to christianity they are my spiritual brothers but here's the irony like the diversity

00:40:02 that we're going to have in heaven there is diversity in heaven and in heaven diversity

00:40:06 actually is our strength because there's no crime statistics in heaven. When we see him,

00:40:10 we shall be like him. We shall see him as he is. So sin is done away. So I don't care the color

00:40:16 of my neighbors in heaven. But here on earth, the irony is if we're making every Western nation on

00:40:25 the planet completely ethnically diverse, you actually, and if Jesus tarries, so they add that

00:40:33 factor too if he tarries for let's say a thousand years you're actually going to have less diversity

00:40:38 not more in heaven every tribe tongue and nation well if we import the whole world here and we all

00:40:43 end up speaking the same language and we and we all like so i think part of the beauty of the

00:40:48 nations is is not that some are muslim and somebody they should all be christian but they should be

00:40:53 distinct nations christian america will be different than christian haiti and it'll be

00:40:58 different than Christian Pakistan one day. God, please do it. But we've got to say we're allowed 0.96

00:41:08 to be a people. We're allowed to have a country. And so I guess I'll pose it as a question to you

00:41:14 though. What do you do with this? The nation is the family writ large, fatherland, fatherhood.

00:41:22 What do you do? Because I look at, you said the Legos building, and I look at our country and I

00:41:26 think it was the same order of those legos um but but in reverse so um all of a sudden 19th

00:41:32 amendment splitting the family splitting the household vote oh um no fault divorce splitting 0.83

00:41:37 the family oh mass immigration right now we're splitting the family writ large it was a destruction 0.96

00:41:43 of the family but there's a certain point where it's so far that it uh man what do you do to fix 1.00

00:41:49 it what do you do i agree everything i mean what you're saying there is like a whole chapter in

00:41:55 christian patriot the book i mean it you you're splitting the lego you're you're continuing to

00:42:00 break things down and i like how you you kind of dipped in there to adoption and you said you're

00:42:04 adopted that is i think part of that solution so if we talk about the family you know as the basis

00:42:11 of of a nation or apatria uh when when a child is adopted like you know let's say you adopt someone

00:42:19 and they're from a different culture and then that happens and there's time for that it's not

00:42:23 like, well, we're, let's say you adopted a child from India. You're like, okay, honey, we need to 0.89

00:42:28 go buy, you know, 30 idols and we're going to set up the idols of Ganesh and Shiva and Vishnu and

00:42:35 put them all around his bedroom. And we're going to give them the Vedas and we're going to teach

00:42:40 them to read the Vedas. And when we pray at supper, you know, we're going to then pause and

00:42:44 let him pray to his false gods. That's not how adoption works, you know, and this brings us all

00:42:50 the way back, Joel, to covenant theology, right? Covenant theology has the family basis to it.

00:42:58 And, you know, you probably don't want to get into it, but this is also the debate about infant

00:43:01 baptism. When a baby is born into a home, is that baby Christian? And is that baby raised Christian?

00:43:09 And as a Catholic, I would say absolutely yes, that the children of at least one believing

00:43:15 parent. There is something that is expected for the parents and for the child. And even people

00:43:23 who, you know, Baptists who do baby dedications, they're at least understanding that this child

00:43:28 is being brought into the covenantal community, they're brought into covenant with God. It doesn't 0.99

00:43:34 mean that they're once saved, always saved from that moment moving forward. But it does show that

00:43:39 when we have children, we have eight children, I don't wait to find, my last name is Marshall,

00:43:44 I don't wait till they're eight years old and say, do you want to be a marshal?

00:43:47 Do you want me to put that on your certificate?

00:43:49 Do you want to pray the Our Father with us?

00:43:52 Do you want to go to church with us?

00:43:54 You know, and I, you kind of said, we've been kind of in a decline for 400 years.

00:43:58 And I would just challenge as a Catholic, I would say, don't you say the Reformation?

00:44:03 Don't you do it?

00:44:05 Don't you do it?

00:44:07 Part of it is, and this is actually, I'll say something maybe a little bit pejorative

00:44:12 about Catholicism is Catholicism can be very structural and just sort of pull the handles

00:44:17 on each sacrament at the right time and get saved. And that's an abuse. All right. That's,

00:44:22 that's not what I would call authentic Catholicism kind of going through the motions and that, 0.96

00:44:26 and that still exists, you know, existed before the reformation and people still do it to this day.

00:44:32 One of the things that the reformation did though, is it, in a way fractured Christendom.

00:44:38 there was a synthesis, sometimes successful, sometimes not successful, of an integration of

00:44:45 church and state. And Christendom comes from the last part, there's domus, house, household.

00:44:50 It's the Latin word for household. So Christendom is the Christian domus. It's the Christian 0.87

00:44:54 household. And there is this sort of this integration. Again, just like in family,

00:44:59 sometimes things are working and sometimes they're not. But that was a good synthesis there. You had

00:45:04 altar and throne and there was accountability church and state we could debate all day long

00:45:10 about what is the optimal way to to create that connection connection or to create some kind of

00:45:16 integrity between the two but when you move when you move christianity so far that it becomes just

00:45:24 about free will voluntary acceptance you actually do get to the point where it's like i'm so removed

00:45:32 and so worried about coercing even my own child that i'm not going to raise them christian and 0.90

00:45:38 let them decide when they grow up like that is the ultimate decision that's the bad boomer decision

00:45:45 like right well i'm not going to take my kids to church you know when they're 15 they'll decide do

00:45:50 i want to live the 10 commandments and love jesus or not like that that mentality which is a little

00:45:57 bit more on the anabaptist wing of can i tell you something real quick that'll just disgust you

00:46:02 You want to be angry for a moment?

00:46:04 It makes me angry too. 0.98

00:46:06 But there are some Baptist professors

00:46:08 in Baptist seminaries

00:46:09 who will, in their family worship,

00:46:12 will have their children

00:46:13 who are younger and not yet baptized.

00:46:16 They'll have each child take a turn praying

00:46:18 out loud in family worship.

00:46:20 And the younger children who are not baptized,

00:46:21 as soon as they're done praying,

00:46:23 the father will say,

00:46:25 the Lord did not hear you.

00:46:28 How do you feel about that?

00:46:30 Isn't that terrible?

00:46:32 just just that's wicked i think i think it's that's wicked that's kind of like going back

00:46:38 to the adoption thing like that's like someone adopting a kid and then every time you're at a

00:46:43 family meeting being like you know you're not really born in this family you don't really

00:46:46 belong like that's that's a wicked thing like if you truly adopt them and give them your last name

00:46:52 and they're living in a bedroom in your house with your last name right and they call you mom and dad 0.68

00:46:57 and you hug them and kiss them before bed every night just like you do the other children that's

00:47:02 a true integration uh into the family structure and so like when we talk about you know immigration

00:47:08 and these things we to to the any extent that there is immigration it has to be an integration

00:47:15 with the faith and this kind of goes back to the christian patriot like we're one reason why i don't

00:47:21 like christian nationalism and i'll say christian nationalism but we live in america where if you

00:47:26 bring your baby over the border and give birth natus in latin it's a city the baby's a citizen

00:47:31 shouldn't be that's not good and we think of well i was born in this country i'm an american 0.75

00:47:39 citizen that's not the historic european understanding it's not the christian

00:47:45 understanding what what makes you is your father right your connection to the father land right

00:47:54 and i think that's as christians we really need to start emphasizing that the virtue of being a

00:48:01 citizen is not it's not built into i was born inside a certain geographic fence it's that i am

00:48:08 i have inherited the patrimony there's the word pater again i am a patriot of this country which

00:48:15 means i'm honoring my father and mother that's the lego block of civilization therefore i'm honoring

00:48:20 my civilization so it's kind of like arrows going different ways i'm saying hey let's start pointing

00:48:26 back to fatherland patria blood faith you know virtue and and that i think is what creates those

00:48:35 tight lego blocks to build the society and and we have to have this idea that that we are a christian

00:48:41 society the more we move more towards the kind of anabaptist understanding of well hey everyone's

00:48:47 just a volunteer agent like hey do you want to join in on christendom now that you're 15 or 7

00:48:52 or whatever the age they pick no like my kids downstairs they know they have been enrolled

00:48:58 they are expected they go to church on sunday we pray every night we pray before meals it's not

00:49:04 like well dad i'm kind of feeling like i'm going to opt out on that it's like get in the van bro

00:49:08 you're going to church right that's what yeah our church just for the record we're family integrated

00:49:13 we don't do child christian child care um the children are there at church they're there for

00:49:18 the sacraments of baptism and the lord's supper for the preaching for the singing of psalms and

00:49:23 hymns and spiritual songs for the benediction where we have a covenant renewal uh liturgy so

00:49:28 we're liturgical every you know so we have a prayer of confession of sin we have um an assurance

00:49:33 of christ's pardon and forgiveness we have uh we say the you know recite the apostles creed every

00:49:37 single sunday and we're doing it in a family integrated way so all the children are there

00:49:42 um in terms of when we apply the sacrament of baptism you and i you know we'd have disagreements

00:49:47 on that uh but even our children uh for my my household for the weapon household i've gotten

00:49:52 in a lot of trouble actually with baptist um because of uh the way that um the way that we

00:49:59 value uh children um and so like with my children um all the time it's like are we a christian

00:50:04 family yes uh am i a part of this christian family yes um am am i christian when my three-year-old

00:50:13 ask that question i i say yes and baptists will get mad i say yes you're christian but then but

00:50:21 then at the same time i also teach my children but there i do believe there is a moment

00:50:26 of regeneration and and i believe and what i've told our children is i so i'm a calvinist um in

00:50:33 terms you know soteriology i don't agree with everything that calvin ever said um although i

00:50:37 certainly appreciate him probably more than you do um but i you know in my soteriology i have you

00:50:42 know monergistic understanding of salvation and and what i tell my children is i say you know god

00:50:47 the fact that he predestinates the ends um we can never sever that from his predestinated means

00:50:53 if god did not intend to save you i don't believe he would have given you to me he could have given

00:50:58 you to my hindu neighbor you know you know he could have given you to my pakistani neighbor

00:51:03 right i live i don't know where i live anymore calcutta i don't know where i don't know man i

00:51:08 go to the neighborhood pool and i'm like uh you know about half are pakistanis half are muslims

00:51:13 you know and is this the ganges yeah wherever so but my point but my point is in terms of pre

00:51:18 predestinated means not being severed from the ends like even in the case of jonah right you

00:51:24 think of this like god works you know whether it's the westminster confession and any you know

00:51:28 a lot of the confessions within protestantism uh yes god can work um he can work outside of nature

00:51:34 But even as miracles are defined, it's God working above or without means.

00:51:40 But most of what God does is by way of providence.

00:51:43 So even in the case of Jonah, he's thrown over a boat,

00:51:47 and God sends a bear to pick him up and carry...

00:51:50 No, he sends a fish.

00:51:52 Well, what do fish do?

00:51:53 They swim, they have gills, they can breathe underwater,

00:51:56 and they swallow things that fall into the sea.

00:51:58 Is it a miracle?

00:51:59 Yes.

00:51:59 um but is it god's using means he's there's a few moments like jesus walking on water all right

00:52:08 resurrection from the dead there are and and those are are phenomenal things but but god uses means

00:52:14 and so too with our children i believe absolutely and i this is what gets me in trouble i believe

00:52:20 that every single one of my children um is christian in the general sense and in the regenerative

00:52:26 sense. I believe it's simply a matter of when and not if. I am 100% confident God will save my kids.

00:52:35 He gave them to me because one of the chief means of bringing about his predestinated means,

00:52:41 of bringing about his predestinated ends, namely salvation, is Christian parenting. You look out 0.96

00:52:47 throughout all of 2,000 years of church history, and 1,000, arguably 1,500, if you go back to

00:52:53 Constantine of Christendom. And the chief means of proselytizing is Christian parents, Christian

00:53:00 parents. It's catechizing your children. So we're like, we're going through, you know, we go through 0.97

00:53:04 the Westminster Catechism, and we're constantly reading the scripture, and our children are

00:53:09 taking turns praying. All of our children, if they're able to talk, then they're praying.

00:53:14 And when they pray, I'm telling them as their father, the Lord heard your prayer. Prayer is

00:53:19 powerful and effective as the righteous man is working and and and and then i'm also preaching

00:53:24 the gospel to them trust in jesus trust in jesus don't hedge your bets um don't don't trust in

00:53:31 yourself and and some of the questions that children ask are just profound you know like

00:53:36 because because they're aware that we're we are in the middle of of a battle for civilization in

00:53:42 the temporal sense and and an eternal spiritual um battle and and that everything is ultimately

00:53:47 stemming and hinging on that. And so sometimes, you know, because my kids, they're kids, they're

00:53:52 little. And so it's like, there's good guys and there's bad guys in every story. And they're like,

00:53:56 we're the good guys. And I'll say, yes, because God makes us good. He makes us good. But also at

00:54:03 the same time, we were once sinners and Christ died for us. Very rarely will anyone die for

00:54:10 a perfect man, but for a good man, someone might dare to possibly die. But God showed his love

00:54:16 for us and this that while we're yet sinners christ died for us and so so we the problem is

00:54:21 sin and and we have been bad guys in various capacities but god made us good and our family

00:54:27 we are on a team as a family but each one of us has to believe in the lord jesus christ but this

00:54:33 is for the family and so we use covenantal language and we talk about a family unit and

00:54:38 and all those things i remember one of my friends he's presbyterian he said

00:54:42 Chalk Knox. His name's David Shannon, but he goes by Chalk Knox as his moniker. But he said,

00:54:50 if some jihadist came and broke down the door to your house and wanted, would he just kill you 1.00

00:54:57 and your wife? Or would he kill the children too? Would he view you as a Christian family? 1.00

00:55:03 Would he want to uproot every single one of you? He'd say, no, he'd kill the children too. 1.00

00:55:07 he'd see every single one of us as a threat he the jihadist he would view my two-year-old as 0.89

00:55:14 a christian whether i do or not um he would view us as a threat as as an enemy and so i have that

00:55:22 covenant covenantal mindset but that said i i do want to ask you we got to go to a commercial break

00:55:28 we were supposed to go 38 minutes ago but it's a great conversation we got to go to a commercial

00:55:32 break but when we come back one of the things i want to ask you because i i like christian

00:55:36 nationalism. I like that it's edgy, but I also think that it's specific, and I do think that

00:55:42 there is a Protestant advantage when it comes to nationalism. And so I want to get your thoughts

00:55:49 on this, because one of the problems that I would have with Roman Catholicism is that it is so

00:55:56 universal. I believe the Christian faith is universal, but the unique expression of Roman

00:56:03 Catholicism, I think that it's hard to maintain national identity, that there is actually a central

00:56:12 locale, Rome, for the world, whereas I think Protestants uniquely can say, no, Christian

00:56:22 America, Christian Brazil, Christian China. And so I would love to come back and talk about that

00:56:29 nationalism piece with you? Because I think of the scripture, all the families of the earth.

00:56:35 There are different families of the earth, and the nation is writ large. And I think that

00:56:40 Protestantism can play with that and work with that national distinction in a way that I think

00:56:48 Catholicism is at a disadvantage. And I'd love to hear your response. So let's go to a commercial

00:56:52 break real quick, and we'll come right back with Dr. Taylor Marshall.

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01:00:26 All right, we are back.

01:00:28 Dr. Taylor Marshall, thanks for joining us.

01:00:30 What do you think about the question that I posed

01:00:32 right before the commercial break

01:00:33 in regards to Catholicism and nationalism?

01:00:38 So if I understand you correctly, you were saying that Protestantism is postured in a way that's more favorable to having a Christian nation.

01:00:46 Is that correct?

01:00:48 As a distinct nation.

01:00:50 Yes.

01:00:51 Yeah.

01:00:52 So I would gently push back on that.

01:00:55 And I would simply say, let's look at places where it's been implemented over a 2000 year period.

01:01:02 And you kind of said we've been in a dip for 300, 400 years.

01:01:06 I loved when you said that, right?

01:01:07 because we look at, you know, let's look at the Enlightenment, 250. Come on. Yeah. Okay. Let's

01:01:13 look at when you had Christian nations that were independent, autonomous, Armenia, right? France,

01:01:24 Germany, Poland. The Holy Roman Empire was dozens and dozens of little nations. When did all of

01:01:33 that actually exist for hundreds and hundreds of years leading to a cultural consensus of a

01:01:39 Christian civilization before the Reformation. We lost the idea of Christian nationalism at the

01:01:47 Reformation and where it was implemented or tried like Geneva, Scotland, England, you know, pick a

01:01:54 place, Northern Germany, it's failed miserably. So I just would say as a Catholic, and this is one

01:01:59 reason i am a catholic is the catholic church pure does it have is it sinless no but there is

01:02:06 a visible unity and if you look at what catholicism has been in the past is we do have a federation of

01:02:13 christian nations sometimes they do squabble sometimes they're they're in controversy with

01:02:19 one another but there is a fellowship and a family just as we're talking about families are the lego

01:02:25 building blocks of the nation, the nations also become building blocks of Christendom.

01:02:31 And that's what we need. And I have not seen Protestantism ever achieve that. I have seen

01:02:36 Catholicism achieve that. So that would just be my, you know, it's a historical answer that,

01:02:42 honestly, the Protestant project of trying to build a Christian nation on Protestant principles.

01:02:48 And I think the main problem is, is Protestant polity, whether you're talking about

01:02:53 congregationalism or presbyterianism or even a form of episcopalianism like an anglicanism 0.58

01:02:59 it doesn't have the gravitas and the authority to properly connect with the state like if you're

01:03:06 pca what are you going to do like hey the presbytery is gonna get involved with washington

01:03:13 dc like it just it doesn't have the potency at the political level to actually achieve something

01:03:20 like Christendom. So as a Catholic, I'm not just looking for Christian nationalism or Christian

01:03:26 patriotism. I'm actually going, I'm looking for another level above that, which would be

01:03:31 Christendom. So you have family, Christian family, Christian nation, Christendomos, Christendom,

01:03:38 and Protestantism has never achieved that. And I don't even know if they want to. 0.53

01:03:43 I don't even, and I know you're post-mill, so that's awesome. But that's what you,

01:03:47 you as a post-mill protestant that's what you should be looking for is not just a bunch of

01:03:53 christian nations but a real federation of christian nations called christendom so

01:03:59 yeah i'd love your response on that what what um you said that you don't know if protestantism

01:04:05 has achieved it i guess my question would be what um what catholic nations are currently achieving

01:04:11 it not that have achieved it but right now because because if the reformation was the problem and

01:04:17 i understand and i've i've gone down this right i think there were problems with the reformation

01:04:20 like to be frank um there is something um powerful and and like a glue that holds things together and

01:04:30 secures things provides a stability uh with the transcendence and objectivity of catholicism

01:04:38 right this is my body this this is my blood um there is something there and uh and you look at

01:04:46 the Enlightenment, and you look at the Reformation, and there's a sense in which you could see

01:04:50 both the Enlightenment and the Reformation as two sides of a singular coin.

01:04:54 The subjectivity and relativism that comes in with everything becoming merely a symbol.

01:05:02 Baptists, I think, are notoriously terrible when it comes to the sacrament of the supper. 0.94

01:05:08 They've gone beyond Calvin's view. They've gone beyond anything else to where it's a mere memorial. 0.98

01:05:14 it's simply a remembrance that there's no particular special presence of christ even with

01:05:22 the sacrament much less in the sacrament and and so i i understand the drawbacks of

01:05:30 of protestantism i i think you'd be hard-pressed to find a more sympathetic protestant than myself

01:05:38 as i've been thinking about these things and baptists are constantly oh you know like but 0.94

01:05:42 If we have Christian nationalism, they're going to drown us, you know, because we won't

01:05:47 baptize our babies.

01:05:49 And I'm like, one, I don't think that'll happen.

01:05:51 Two, okay, like, let's look at it.

01:05:54 Let's, let's, because we have history.

01:05:56 We can go back and look like, okay, 200 Baptists are drowned.

01:06:00 200 a day?

01:06:01 No.

01:06:01 200 a year?

01:06:02 No. 0.55

01:06:03 200, you know, and we murdered a million babies in their mother's wombs annually in one country.

01:06:10 what are like what what the hell are you talking about oh they might drown uh you know like a

01:06:16 dozen baptists might get drowned even john bunyan i love john bunyan i love pilgrim's progress you

01:06:21 probably like pilgrim's progress you know at least elements of it um and yet at the same time i can

01:06:26 look at that and say you know what the chrysidom and i've said this publicly and i have no problem

01:06:30 saying it again the chrysidom that i'm fighting for um if it's achieved i won't be allowed to um

01:06:38 to do what I'm currently doing. A guy like me who never finished seminary

01:06:47 in Christendom, right now, the reason why people listen to Joel Webbin is because

01:06:54 we have no idea how bad it is out there, how bad things really are. If Christendom,

01:07:02 you know, like Bunyan said this, you know, in Pilgrim's Progress, if religion was walking in

01:07:07 her glass slippers, you know, and well adorned and applauded, you know, by the masses,

01:07:12 then there actually would be standards for who's a minister. And also there would probably be some

01:07:18 standards for who's allowed to have a YouTube channel with 125,000 people tuning in and

01:07:23 listening. And some credentials would be necessary. And the Christendom that I'm fighting

01:07:29 for i recognize because people they think it's a gotcha like well you wouldn't even like correct 0.60

01:07:34 i i would rather um hey joel we love you um thanks for being a top tard in the lord's army

01:07:41 you know during the dark ages and uh but but now that that uh we've got things under control that 0.98

01:07:46 you know we don't need the retards you know running uh you know large accounts and teaching 0.99

01:07:51 the masses anymore and we're gonna have this guy who's versed in greek and versed in latin and he 1.00

01:07:56 you know, and, and literally my response would be, I'm done. Okay. Thank you. You can take it

01:08:03 from here. Like I was running the baton, running like this, like Forrest Gump, you know, and now

01:08:07 we've got like a world-class, you know, trained Olympian taking it. Praise God. Praise God. So I,

01:08:13 so my, my point is I, I recognize like, even with John Bunyan, like I look at that and I think I

01:08:18 love John Bunyan. And yet it's like, well, he was in prison. He would, he could have walked out of

01:08:25 prison at any moment. He just needed to get his papers. He needed to get his credentials and he

01:08:31 refused to do it. And so I look at that and I'm sitting here as a Baptist, John Bunyan's our guy.

01:08:37 I mean, he's the closest thing to an impressive Baptist that there's ever been. And even with

01:08:43 that, I can be sympathetic. So my point is, I feel like I can have this conversation at least

01:08:49 somewhat um more than most baptists um and and more than a lot of protestants uh and yet i look

01:08:56 at the world and i think um i don't see any protestant nations in the last 400 years that

01:09:02 have really held on to christendom i'm with you i don't see any catholic ones that have either 0.98

01:09:06 i like i i feel like i can look at the catholic nations and they're gay and retarded too 0.91

01:09:11 yeah no we're it's kind of we go back to the story of what is a nation it's the 0.98

01:09:17 family writ large. It's a collection of families. I think what, you know, I'm a former Protestant,

01:09:22 now a Catholic, you're a Protestant minister. I think it kind of goes back to,

01:09:26 we had a major divorce in the family. You know, we had a traumatic experience that has happened

01:09:34 in the family. So it's almost like if we were doing a show on what does it mean to be a Catholic

01:09:38 dad and have a Catholic family? And then we also like realize that, you know, there was a major

01:09:43 divorce between mom and dad, and, you know, there wasn't joint custody, and there's all these huge

01:09:48 problems, and they were like, well, let's now debate what is a Christian family. It's, it just

01:09:53 got really complicated, and it gets really clouded, and it gets really difficult. I mean, I assume that

01:09:58 when you baptize people, you baptize them in the canonical form, I baptize you in the name of the

01:10:02 Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, right? Do you? Yes. Yeah, so as a Catholic, I recognize that as a vow

01:10:07 of baptism it's conferring grace it's conferring the character of baptism we accept those baptisms

01:10:14 but there's also a great tragedy in my own heart that those baptisms are valid and they're good

01:10:22 and they're true but it's also kind of like you don't have the right papers right or the right

01:10:27 credentials or the right you know like you're not properly licensed and so what we have here is we

01:10:33 have kind of a broken family like i can see something good over there but i'm also like

01:10:37 man we're we're not on the same team we don't have the same potency because we have so many

01:10:43 free agents and i europe was reaching there was there was some bad things before the reformation

01:10:48 obviously but we were reaching i think a moment in which we could have in god's providence continue

01:10:54 to extend extend those larger lego blocks and incorporating more nations but we had this

01:11:00 horrible tragedy in god's providence he allowed it um and i think that was the unraveling of what

01:11:07 we had as a as a christendom because what happened is is you know luther hooked up with the german

01:11:13 princes and the english divines you know hooked up with henry the eighth and they had the church

01:11:18 of england and you kind of even the protestants themselves you know it's not like there was

01:11:23 protestantism and they kind of just continued in their own thing they continued to also you know

01:11:29 zwingli versus luther and they also started to drift and now we're 500 years later and we've

01:11:35 and it's not just that protestant has drifted from catholicism but the different protestant

01:11:40 groups that continue to drift so you have your mainline usa and lutheran and so now we're kind

01:11:46 of in you know we're floating around and there's you know all these these pieces and that's one of

01:11:53 the things you know and as a protestant when i was a protestant thinking about it's like

01:11:56 there needs to be a way in which we are the church like holy mother the church and i think

01:12:06 part of this process of christian nationalism of christian patriotism is the only way that

01:12:12 would ever work it would never work with multiple denominations there wouldn't be no authority with

01:12:17 the state if they're like well the baptists say this and the presbyterians are this and the

01:12:21 Lutherans and the Calvinist, it would not work. You need to have something, a visible church

01:12:28 with real authority. Because otherwise, like you're talking about Paul Bunyan, like, well,

01:12:31 he's credentialed by them and they're credentialed by them and they're credentialed by them.

01:12:35 This project works when we are a visible church and kind of bring everything full circle.

01:12:40 The reason evangelicals love Israel and they want to send their money to Israel is I believe

01:12:47 evangelicals, like all true Christians, long for the kingdom. And they know it should be thy kingdom

01:12:55 come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. As a Catholic, I think I have that more

01:13:03 than you because I'm part of a universal church with a billion people. They may not all be going

01:13:08 to heaven, but I'm part of this visible thing. I think these evangelicals are like, man, it'd be

01:13:13 so cool to have a capital in Jerusalem and a temple, and that's our kingdom. Jesus came preaching

01:13:19 the kingdom. And so I think they're longing. It's almost like a short-circuited way of saying,

01:13:24 I want a visible church. I want a sacramental system. I want to be part of a visible thing.

01:13:30 And they choose the old covenant. They choose the old covenant as the means for achieving that. And

01:13:36 that that is dispensationalism that is dispensationalism so i think those of us that

01:13:42 reject dispensationalism and we're covenant you know we're covenant minded we have to work out

01:13:48 the project if we're going to have christian nationalism or christian patriotism or christian

01:13:52 statehood we have to figure out how does how do those christians those baptized people interface

01:13:59 with the state and it can't just be having well on monday we have a baptist chaplain pray before

01:14:04 Congress. And on Tuesday, we have the Lutheran. And on Thursday, we have the win. It can't be

01:14:08 that. It has to actually be a structural thing, a visible structural thing. So, you know, as a

01:14:15 Catholic, I realize we have our problems. I wrote a book called Infiltration, a bestseller,

01:14:20 massive problems in the Catholic Church. I'm probably the most outspoken on problems in

01:14:25 the Catholic Church. But at least there is that. There is the way to Christendom still. It's just 1.00

01:14:32 we had this huge divorce 500 years ago and we're still you know we're still struggling okay so i

01:14:39 hear your answer um you're saying well protestantism has not been able to achieve chrysodome i said

01:14:44 yeah but catholics haven't done it either in the last four or five hundred years and i hear you

01:14:50 saying well protestants haven't been able to achieve it because of protestants and catholics

01:14:54 haven't been able to achieve it in the last four or five hundred years because of protest

01:14:57 because of the divorce it's made it impossible for either us to achieve it is that kind of

01:15:02 basically your answer yeah i mean when you have large chunks of christian nations that

01:15:10 that break off to a different religion you know that makes it extremely difficult to do but i

01:15:16 would say you know you had franco in spain right they largely had a very christian culture you

01:15:22 know abortion was illegal even contraception was illegal in franco spain lewis and jr r tolkien

01:15:28 would argue about that and c.s lewis with most of the other guys in england you know didn't like it

01:15:33 because most of them were protestant anglican at the time but jr tolkien had a soft spot for 0.95

01:15:38 uh for franco because he was a catholic and he was like well they're they're raping and killing

01:15:42 nuns you know so he was able to stand up franco is probably kind of also probably carl of austria

01:15:49 the austrian hungarian empire that went into the 1900s it's a it's a christian christian

01:15:55 you know ethno state poland right now still very much is i mean they poland officially recognizes

01:16:01 christ as king uh it's a catholic country i mean it's not what it was you know it's it's not what

01:16:07 it was but i think even into you it's not like christendom as catholic broke in 1517

01:16:12 up until world war one which i call the war against christian nations that's what world war

01:16:19 one was the dissolving of everything monarchy and christian identity up until world war one there

01:16:25 it was still happening france of course had its its bloody revolution but i think it was still

01:16:30 going on i think really after world war one and world war two we are living in this post very 0.88

01:16:35 deeply disgusting post-Christian era that's at the same time we have Israel arising and you know 0.98

01:16:43 I do think there is something apocalyptic I don't necessarily believe we're in the end times but 1.00

01:16:48 there is something apocalyptic you know eschatological ecclesiological happening in

01:16:54 the last century and you know we've got to figure it out and and we have to get back to what not

01:17:01 just Christian nationalism, but to Christendom, it's thinking way bigger than the Christian state.

01:17:06 It's a federation of Christian states. And there's a chapter in the book, Christian Patriot.

01:17:11 One of the chapters is we must do federal aid and we must do our interaction with what we do with

01:17:17 our money and what we do in war and what we do with our allies. It must be based on Christian 0.99

01:17:22 identity. We should be privileging Hungary and Poland over Ukraine and Israel. That has to be 1.00

01:17:29 the way we think and that kind of goes to this idea of christendom and federations of christian 0.79

01:17:34 nations and alliances and that's that's the medieval idea let me offer i would say one white

01:17:41 pill and it's early on but there is a country right now you could call it a christian nationalist

01:17:46 experiment and it's el salvador and i just confirmed it they're about a 40 40 catholic

01:17:51 protestant mix now it's early i mean the reform we're talking just about six years but as far as

01:17:56 crime as far as approval rating for the president and he he doesn't really claim as far as a king

01:18:01 as far as a king essentially yeah and he doesn't claim either one so he doesn't identify as

01:18:05 protestant or catholic because i believe in god i believe jesus christ was his son so in the

01:18:09 meantime even if a type of reconciliation and maturation of the church if that's 500 years

01:18:14 away i will say practically we at least see the early stages of something working the people are

01:18:19 safe it's suffused with a christian nature and that's christian laws abortion being outlawed

01:18:24 so i i don't think that is necessarily until something happens the hatch is shut we've got

01:18:29 no hope right we've got to do ecumenical yeah until then that's not ideal all three of us would

01:18:34 agree that's not ideal um it'd be nice to pick a lane but that is a white pill in the sense that

01:18:39 i'm just saying that this let's that win it's a w so it's like so we this is going to have to get

01:18:44 sorted out in the providence of god uh the the protestant and catholic divide but um we shouldn't

01:18:51 have the mindset of um we can't even have the remnants of a christian nation until that happens

01:18:58 no we we can fight i believe for a christian nation or have to persecute one another if we

01:19:03 get into power so it's like one gets in power well we've got to shut down the other or the other one

01:19:06 you can at some level collaborate and chances are eventually they will end up on one side or the

01:19:13 other that that tension will probably not hold indefinitely but the fact that they were able to

01:19:18 achieve for all intents and purposes a christian nation even with that divide but i will say this

01:19:24 um one thing that el salvador is united on is they uh they are not zionists i'll put it that

01:19:33 way they uh they are j-pilled to the max and that includes bukele that includes his brother that

01:19:39 includes uh multiple political leaders and the protestants there and the catholics there um they

01:19:45 are uh dispensationalism is is not faring well in el salvador um they they are very much and that

01:19:53 that's a big part i think of um their vision even like you think of uh what el salvador is doing

01:19:58 with bitcoin uh bitcoin and their currency um even that is they are trying to get away from

01:20:03 centralized banks they're trying to get away from exorbitant forms of usury uh they're trying to get

01:20:09 away from yeah they're trying to get away from jewelry um in regards to the banking system and

01:20:13 currency and those kinds of things so they i feel like i'm cooking here um i when you think of like

01:20:20 if you let them cook if you think of world war one you think of world war two because i'm with you

01:20:25 uh dr taylor marshall i'm with you 100 on that the post-war consensus is real um and and it's

01:20:32 basically uh you can't you know uh it's like how come we can't have nice things hitler you know

01:20:38 like we can't have anything nice ever again you can't sorry you're not allowed to have a christian

01:20:42 nation. Why? Because fascists, you know, you're not allowed to have a moral society. Why? Because

01:20:47 it's totalitarian. And the nations that it does seem like where there's some hope, I guess what

01:20:54 I'm saying is I don't think it's accidental. I don't view that as a coincidence. I view that as

01:20:58 maybe there's actually a necessary vital ingredient there with El Salvador that, yes,

01:21:04 there's the Christian piece, but there's not only the Christian piece. There's also very much so

01:21:10 the um we are not beholden to israel ingredient and i and i think that that uh that that portion

01:21:17 of of the formula is is doing some heavy lifting i i don't i don't think the west i don't think

01:21:25 the west um is able to to get back on the rails until until we um start to say hey you know what

01:21:34 um we're not beholden to israel um until that happens i i think that uh i think we're in trouble

01:21:42 uh what one last thing that i want to say and then we'll we'll go ahead and end it but um in

01:21:46 terms of of you know a christian nation with it being you know protestant you bring up a fair

01:21:53 point and and me and my you know my protestant colleagues you know who are pro-christian

01:21:57 nationalism have thought about this are you familiar at all with uh dr stephen wolf

01:22:01 yes have you heard the name okay have you uh had the chance to read the book the case for

01:22:08 christian nationalism i would say i've read through it i don't think i've read every page

01:22:12 but i'm familiar with the book i have so he he argues cool so he argues and i agree with his

01:22:18 vision i'm very much on that team for a pan protestant christian nationalism and so i'm

01:22:24 with you i think jefferson is terrible and uh and i'm not um of the persuasion that there absolutely

01:22:30 has to be a separation of church and state. But what Stephen Wolf is trying to do is arguing around

01:22:36 that in a way of saying that a separation of church and state in no way necessitates a separation of

01:22:45 Christ and state. The state still has to be Christian. And so a separation of church and 0.57

01:22:52 state does not actually forbid a theocracy. It forbids an ecclesiocracy. So there's not a church

01:22:58 run state uh the state is the state and and it and it makes its own decisions and so too the church

01:23:04 is the church that like even you know you think of um uh you know uh like westminster uh confession

01:23:11 that the english version the older version before it was more americanized um said that you know

01:23:16 that um the civil magistrate the christian prince that he could call uh for church councils he could

01:23:22 call for the church courts to convene and gather. And that's what Constantine did. And Constantine

01:23:29 didn't make the decision. I mean, he had his opinion, and I'm sure he was leaning a little

01:23:34 bit. But ultimately, he was just like, look, this is going to get settled. You're going to meet

01:23:39 together for as long as it takes, or I'll kill you. And I think it's a pretty reasonable thing 1.00

01:23:45 to do. But he ultimately let them, he let the clergy hash it out, and the church ended up

01:23:51 making the decision, not Constantine, and then he abided by it. But he did have the authority,

01:23:55 so he didn't have the authority to administer sacraments, right? So the president of the

01:23:59 United States can't come in, you know, the church, Protestant or Catholic, and, you know,

01:24:03 administer, you know, the Lord's Supper or the Eucharist or baptism. But it's still, it's not,

01:24:11 it's severed from the church, but it's not severed from Christ. And so when I think of

01:24:15 what a Christian nation like America could look like in a pan-Protestant scheme. I think of 0.71

01:24:23 Ten Commandments. The state is subservient to Christ. Christ is above the church. He's also

01:24:31 above the state, the civil magistrate, Romans chapter 13, right? He's God's deacon, diakonos.

01:24:39 He's a minister of God.

01:24:42 It is a divine appointment.

01:24:44 It's a divine position, just like holy orders to the church, not just like, but both are

01:24:50 divinely instituted.

01:24:52 And so the way I see it is you have all 10 commandments legislated.

01:24:57 Now, the first and the 10th, coveting, we don't have the coveting police.

01:25:02 Coveting is a sin.

01:25:03 It's not a crime.

01:25:04 So when does the state get involved in punishing coveting?

01:25:07 Well, it's easy.

01:25:08 It's when coveting is unchecked by the individual through grace in such a way it goes unchecked

01:25:15 so long that coveting becomes a breach of the sixth commandment or the seventh commandment

01:25:20 or the eighth commandment.

01:25:21 Like coveting boils over into theft.

01:25:23 It boils over into murder.

01:25:25 It boils over into these other, you know, to adultery.

01:25:28 And now the state is involved.

01:25:29 I think the state, adultery should be a punishable offense.

01:25:32 I think it should be both a sin and a crime. 0.99

01:25:35 Homosexuality should be a sin and a crime. 0.99

01:25:37 And with all crimes, it's not like Minority Report with Tom Cruise, you know, and you're trying to preemptively find, you know, crimes before they ever happen or going into someone's home, you know, and breaking up. 0.99

01:25:52 But public displays of perversion, be it heterosexual or homosexual, that's a crime. 0.65

01:25:58 The sisters of perpetual virginity, jail, just immediately jail.

01:26:03 you know and and so these these are are actually idolatry idolatry exactly so now the first

01:26:11 commandment the first commandment uh first table of the law uh you know love for neighbors two

01:26:16 tables of the law ten commandments first table of the law pertaining love not for neighbor but for

01:26:20 god the second the second table of the law can't hang in midair that's the problem that a lot of

01:26:25 protestants they're like let's just hang in midair no it hinges on love for god love the lord your

01:26:29 God with all your heart, soul, mind, strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. You can't

01:26:34 love your neighbor if you don't love the Lord your God. St. Augustine, you know, with the order

01:26:39 of Morris, you want to order all these other human loves. First, you have to love God, and

01:26:44 everything else is going to stem from that. But like the second table of the law, the last

01:26:48 commandment is a sin, coveting, but not a crime until it breaches into the others. I would say

01:26:54 with the first table of the Ten Commandments, the first, so it's like almost bookends, the first

01:26:59 one is a sin, but not a crime. Love the Lord your God, or have no other gods before me. So I might

01:27:05 be loving my wife more than the Lord in my heart. That's a sin, but it's not a crime. So when does

01:27:11 the first commandment actually get punished by the state? When it breaches into the second and the

01:27:15 third and the fourth commandment. So it's when it becomes visible expressions of idolatry,

01:27:21 when it becomes taking the Lord's name in vain, when it becomes... In America, we had blue laws,

01:27:25 we had Sabbath laws, we had blasphemy laws. None of these things are foreign. None of these things 0.98

01:27:30 are novel. And so I feel like if we could return, and not just return, because the past got us

01:27:39 here. So obviously we need to make some changes, and I'm aware of that. But I do think there's a

01:27:43 way of having a Christian magistrate who is not Anglican, he's not Episcopalian, he's not Baptist,

01:27:49 he's not Presbyterian, but he is distinctly Christian. And so what I would advocate for

01:27:56 as a Protestant is that it intentionally would not be confessional, but it would be creedal

01:28:01 by design. So it's Apostles' Creed, it's Nicene Creed, it's Athanasius. And so it's broad in that

01:28:09 sense that every Christian can affirm it, but it's not so narrow that it becomes confessional

01:28:15 Westminster or the Belgic Confession or the 1689 or something like that. So it's broad enough on

01:28:23 purpose, but it's still distinctly Christian. I think you could do that, and it could work.

01:28:31 And then some nations will be Catholic nations. That's their tradition. That's their history. 0.96

01:28:36 But when I look at America, yes, I have my religious convictions, biblical convictions,

01:28:41 as a Protestant, but then also just taking faith aside for a moment and historically looking in

01:28:48 terms of me just being an American. I feel like Catholicism is not American. I feel like it is

01:28:56 somewhat foreign. That said, I can see Catholicism working in America a lot more than one other guy

01:29:02 who we can both pick on because no one's representing it on the show today. Eastern

01:29:07 unorthodoxy um god bless him but i i like the way um tim gordon says it uh he's a friend and

01:29:15 he says it's the mr miyagi complex that you know with the karate kid you got a little uh you know

01:29:20 everybody's deracinated you know there's fatherlessness you got this little white boy

01:29:24 and his dad is absent you know but uh thanks to uh our sacred democracy and diversity being our

01:29:30 strength and immigration you've got you know this old uh asian man and he becomes a father to you

01:29:36 the little white kid whose dad is absent and starts teaching him virtue and work ethic and

01:29:43 stuff. And I look at Eastern Orthodoxy in America because it is on a massive upswing and it's

01:29:48 undeniable, but I don't think it has the staying power. I think it could have staying power in 0.99

01:29:53 Russia. It could have staying power in places where it's historically rooted. In America,

01:29:58 I think it's very much directly related to fatherlessness. It's like, here's this old Asian 1.00

01:30:05 mystical kind of thing and it's like here's all these young white white boys who um you know

01:30:11 they're like dad dad is absent i don't even know where i live anymore everybody hates me and

01:30:17 there's something old and tried and true and mr miyagi is going to come and he's going to teach

01:30:22 me wax on wax off you know and and essential oils for men he's eastern orthodoxy you know we're so

01:30:28 back and uh but my point is that seems really foreign i don't think eastern orthodoxy is going

01:30:33 to work as the cohesive for America at large. You could have converts, you know, and it could

01:30:39 add, you know, Wayne and Wax, but it's, I don't think that's going to be it. Catholicism has more

01:30:44 of a fighting chance, I think, because it is European and we came from Europe. It's in England's 0.90

01:30:51 past, so it's not in the WASP, you know, Anglo-Protestant culture, but it is in the Anglo

01:30:56 culture very much in our history. But Protestantism, I feel like you would agree, Protestantism is the

01:31:04 lion's share of America's origins. And so this pan-Protestant idea that I just espoused, and then

01:31:14 just the Protestant history being unique to America, what would you say as a Catholic in

01:31:19 response to that yeah when you look at the 13 colonies and you look at the project of 1776

01:31:26 it is protestant it's also freemasonic that's another problem with it but you know i would say

01:31:31 that protestantism you say catholicism is foreign only if you start the movie at a certain point

01:31:38 because you're a foreign baptist that was at one point very foreign to europe and christianity

01:31:44 you know the the experiment of luther that was also foreign it wasn't part of the consensus so

01:31:50 as a catholic i see the movie starting 2000 years ago it's running i see new new entities spinning

01:31:58 out of it you know and then so when you say well in this location united states of america

01:32:02 it was predominantly protestant but i just say well just look at the whole story of western

01:32:07 civilization, we are still like the number one, like we, the Christendom, the theology, the

01:32:14 tradition, the culture, the hospitals, the universities, everything that is part of the

01:32:19 Catholic Christendom tradition. And so, you know, I just, it's just, I think Protestants, because 1.00

01:32:26 the way, and I was a Protestant, the way we're educated, it's even in the public schools, you

01:32:31 is the beginning of freedom the beginning of everything good the beginning of rights it all

01:32:41 was 1776 so they look at the founding fathers like as a catholic now i think of the church

01:32:46 fathers like the founding fathers had some good stuff but if you if you're starting the the movie

01:32:51 you're starting the video in the in the 1700s then then yeah you're going to be like well

01:32:57 protestants you know we're the deal you know this is our place this is but you know that's one

01:33:04 kind of a more small narrow look at what it is and then you just look at america eventually began

01:33:12 to incorporate places like florida texas california new mexico and and that expansion

01:33:20 brought in an enormous Catholic population.

01:33:24 So the origin, of course, is Protestant, Freemasonic.

01:33:28 But then as it grows and as it's growing now, I mean, Catholics are, we're the biggest

01:33:33 denomination, if you want to use that language.

01:33:36 And I think as the mainline Presbyterians, Lutherans, Anglicans, Methodists, as they 0.97

01:33:42 die off, I think Catholics will have the majority. 1.00

01:33:47 So I think you're right also. 1.00

01:33:49 And I think that's part of my concern, and not just, again, from the religious category as a Protestant and being convicted in that direction, but also as an American.

01:34:00 You mentioned New Mexico and California.

01:34:03 You're right.

01:34:04 Catholicism is growing leaps and bounds in America, and part of it is conversion.

01:34:08 I've looked at the statistics.

01:34:11 There are a lot of people returning to the church, and a lot of that is returning to the Catholic church.

01:34:18 and not necessarily Protestant churches.

01:34:20 Now, I'd like to think that part of that 0.99

01:34:22 is because young men who are getting red-pilled 0.69

01:34:24 show up to the average Protestant church

01:34:26 and they're talking about dispensational Zionism 0.97

01:34:28 and their smoke machines and laser lights

01:34:30 and it's Pastor Susan or Sally is preaching 0.99

01:34:36 and it's like, well, that's super gay. 0.97

01:34:38 Like, I'm out. 0.99

01:34:40 I can just watch PragerU at home 0.95

01:34:43 and shill for Israel that way,

01:34:44 but I'm not doing this.

01:34:46 so that i think that's part of the return to catholicism but i think part of it also is

01:34:51 people feel deracinated they feel displaced they want something old they want something tried they

01:34:56 want something true they want something that feels stable and it's quite the claim to be able to say

01:35:01 hey a 2 000 year old church right in the same city in rome like i mean even rc sprall you know this

01:35:09 you you're a westminster grad rc sprall had to tip the hat you know and say like you know like

01:35:14 whether i like it or not for 2000 years there has been a church one church in rome and that is quite

01:35:20 an impressive feat that said um what you were describing about new mexico and california and

01:35:26 different places um people converting to catholicism a bunch of you know young young white

01:35:31 men getting red-pilled and going catholic fine i wish they were going protestant of course of course

01:35:36 i wish that you you're glad they're going catholic of course like we you know we both have our teams

01:35:41 um but um that's one thing but i i fear that uh part of the reason america is uh is growing in

01:35:49 its catholic um population is because of immigration because they're uh they're they're

01:35:55 importing in a bunch of people who are not american like so like oh they're look look this 0.96

01:36:00 is amazing look how many catholics we have yeah you mean you mean all all the brown people from 0.74

01:36:07 South America, they may be Catholic and praise God, praise God, but they're not American. 1.00

01:36:15 And so part of my fear is that I sometimes struggle to think that my Catholic friends 0.62

01:36:20 will have the same resolve, even though they're American. I sometimes worry that their particular

01:36:26 religious devotion and allegiance to Catholicism, that very much is global, universal, will inhibit

01:36:35 them to keep America, America. And that, yeah, America will end up Catholic and we'll all be 0.63

01:36:41 eating soup with our hands. And you know what I mean? And my kids and their ethnicity will be 0.91

01:36:51 a minority in a country that our founders, they told us who they were doing it for, for us and

01:36:58 our posterity. They weren't doing it for India. And I hope that India is blessed by God and 1.00

01:37:03 repents of worshiping false gods, becomes Christian, and thrives. I don't hate India. I

01:37:10 don't hate brown people, black people, red and yellow, black and white. They are precious in

01:37:15 his sight. Yes and amen. But I don't want to lose America. I don't want to lose my people.

01:37:22 And I sometimes worry that Catholics, a guy like you, Taylor, that I know you love our country, 0.97

01:37:30 and i've seen you the reason i wanted to have you on the show is i disagree with you on catholicism

01:37:36 but i've watched your your political takes your cultural takes and i'm like well goodness gracious

01:37:41 like because i'm looking at the protestants who agree with me on soteriology and some of these

01:37:45 things but they oh my goodness like if if if people listen to their politics we're done you

01:37:50 know so so i so i'm like looking at you and i'm like all right i i'm gonna have to reach across

01:37:55 the aisle here and and play nice and be and be respectful and i want to be respectful regardless

01:37:59 but like you're saying good things but i do get scared that even a guy like you um who who seems

01:38:08 to love america um who who looks like a heritage american um that that your catholicism that tail

01:38:17 might wag the dog on the in terms of national allegiance versus religious allegiance and that

01:38:24 you might, you know, be like, Hey, you know what? Um, open the floodgates and boom, we got our

01:38:31 Catholic America, but we, we lost our, our ethnic America in the process. And I think that matters. 1.00

01:38:40 I think it matters too. Uh, I'm a Catholic and I'm against immigration. So even if you said, 0.95

01:38:48 man, these, all these Catholics, you know, coming over the border, they go to mass every Sunday,

01:38:52 et cetera, and you have illegal unbridled immigration, there is a net negative. There's 0.52

01:38:59 a problem there. But at the same time, you know, when you're looking at priorities and political

01:39:05 priorities, I talked to my Catholic friends in Europe and they're like, man, you should see

01:39:10 Paris right now. This is getting crazy. You know, and you go to go in Rome and you see, you know,

01:39:16 more and more gypsies and you see more and more Indians. And they're saying, man, we're just 0.99

01:39:19 being overtaken i at least you know over here in texas i say well at least ours are catholic

01:39:25 you know what i mean like i know you're saying like why i could tell but i'm like man we're 0.90

01:39:30 blessed you know our illegal aliens you know they're committing crime and there's all these 1.00

01:39:35 gangs and all that but a lot of them at least are going to mass on sunday it's not like muslims 1.00

01:39:39 you know bowing down in the streets of downtown paris for their five you know times of prayer 0.77

01:39:45 per day. So yeah, I am a little bit more softened on that as a Texan. I'm against, you know,

01:39:50 illegal immigration. But I also understand there is the idea of a cultural, of a familial

01:39:59 identity of American. Obviously, I'm not a WASP. But, you know, part of the cool thing about

01:40:09 Catholic history and tradition is the Pope never said, I want Germans to be French and French to

01:40:15 be German. And I want French people to move over here and German people to move over here. And I

01:40:19 want the Belgians to start, you know, going over the channel and living in England. And I want 1.00

01:40:25 Belgian people to start eating English food and speaking English. There was always the idea that

01:40:31 each one of these nations is Christian. They're baptized. They go to church on Sunday. They have

01:40:38 their own archbishops, their own bishoprics, which, by the way, are geographical. This is a

01:40:43 very important thing in Catholicism. Our structure, our hierarchy is built on the diocese and the

01:40:48 parish. So it's very geographical. There was never the idea that it all had to be mixed up into one

01:40:54 generic soup. And that's actually really beautiful and something that we should try to attain. Now

01:41:02 that we have airplanes and boats and all that, it's going to be a lot more difficult moving

01:41:07 forward and as a catholic and i think you would agree with this as well my faith trumps my

01:41:14 citizenship like i would always go with faith over citizenship right um so yeah so when i look

01:41:23 at the immigrants i'm like at least our immigrants come from at least three to five hundred years of

01:41:30 a christian culture they believe in the ten commandments they may not act on it they may be

01:41:36 criminals but at least they're coming from something that is spanish christianity which 0.95

01:41:41 is way better than a somalian you know right who showed up somewhere in france and and wants 0.99

01:41:48 government support and is you know raping and killing and causing all kinds of problems i'm 1.00

01:41:53 with you on that i appreciate that i i get in trouble sometimes with you know some of you know

01:41:57 our base is continuing to grow people following us online and there are guys to my left there are 0.53

01:42:02 guys to my right and guys to my right you know sometimes be like that's the gayest thing you've 0.63

01:42:06 ever said you know pastor or like you know like uh what an l you know because because there are

01:42:12 moments where when push comes to shove um yeah religion over race christ is lord my allegiance

01:42:21 to christ trumps my allegiance to everyone else to my wife to my children um to my neighbor to my

01:42:29 country to ethnicity or whatever you want to call it um i yeah so i yes religion first um but but it

01:42:38 does yeah one thing that i think's changed your gen x i presume no i'm an old millennial i'm 39

01:42:44 with a lot of gray in my beard because i'm in controversies every week online so i'm gen x

01:42:50 i'm noticing that our gen z and down more and more um are a little bit more cynical and black

01:43:00 pilled on america and preserving america i think for a lot of them it's already lost

01:43:06 yeah and i think maybe more and more this issue um will fade because they're living in such a

01:43:16 cultural decay with only fans and pornography and unrestricted immigration and they can't buy a house

01:43:23 and you know all all of this kind of this it's a bad situation like they're they're entering into 0.98

01:43:29 a tough landscape the conversation we're having i think will become over the next 10 years less

01:43:36 interesting to that generation and i'd love to hear your thoughts on that do you think that's

01:43:40 right what do you think west you're the you're the youngest guy west is 14 i'm still a millennial

01:43:48 just on the newer end of things yeah um i do see i agree with you uh dr marshall that uh even young

01:43:54 catholics i know uh there's definitely like a cynicism about it and a lot of people will fall

01:43:59 back to kind of the only identity that they can hold in it so they don't have the americana they

01:44:02 didn't they didn't grow up in the 90s when things were good and so they fall back on either religion

01:44:07 or race so i do agree it's going to get reductionistic and um yeah i would agree

01:44:12 yeah i i think the conversation will get more intense but narrower so i i think it'll be yeah

01:44:20 it'll be less of um america and thanksgiving and apple pie and all these different things it'll be

01:44:27 um european white christian and white christian and white that's like you talk to a lot of uh

01:44:34 gen z gen z is uh is alarming alarmingly based they are like the things i have heard coming out

01:44:43 of gen z catholic young men my yeah no you i mean you look at it and it's like you know the stats

01:44:47 that just came out in terms of trump's approval and it showed like 18 to uh 24 year old uh men

01:44:53 particularly white men and it was like oh look look uh trump's approval rating has gone down

01:44:59 you know by 42 points or whatever it was 38 points with uh young you know young white men

01:45:04 it's like they're moving left and it's like like you look at the like no they're to the right of

01:45:10 trump trump is a lib for them they're like uh trump's a boomer trump's a lib uh it's time to

01:45:17 get serious so i don't think the conversation is going away but i i agree if you're saying that

01:45:21 that it'll become more reduct reductionistic more uh truncated like what you said to me like when 0.92

01:45:27 the when the Mexicans come over you know we'll have less Americana you know less wasp I think 1.00

01:45:33 these young men and young women some of them that the Gen Z and down they're like who cares I can't 1.00

01:45:39 you know I just got replaced by an H1B1 and I can't buy a house and every girl that I meet you 0.99

01:45:45 know has been with 14 men you know like that I think for our age like Gen X and above like 1.00

01:45:51 americana you know like bruce springsteen you know fourth of july wasp founding fathers george

01:45:59 washington i think that still kind of warms and stirs our hearts i think that generation and down

01:46:04 i think that conversation is going to just completely dry up i think they're much more

01:46:08 in a survival mode and that's why like wesley you were saying like it becomes much more about

01:46:13 race and religion because that identity that you like we were in the 90s we remember it

01:46:20 you know we like lived in it yeah they they have heard about it and they've seen it on movies but

01:46:26 i don't think they've ever lived in it so to appeal to them that you need to preserve it i'm

01:46:29 not so sure that it will resonate with them and i think the conversation is going to change over 10

01:46:34 years yeah well this has been a fascinating conversation uh dr marshall we really appreciate

01:46:40 your time your willingness to come on um thank you so much is there anything you want to leave

01:46:45 our listeners with how can they follow you how can they check out what you're doing nathan let's show

01:46:49 the book one more time so we can plug that yep there it is christian patriot comes out september

01:46:54 2nd uh forwards written by harrison butker the kicker for the chiefs he got in a bunch of

01:46:59 controversy oh yeah yeah i think you know women in the kitchen and the traditional family and

01:47:03 everything so true that's so true so real for that yeah he's a great guy so um yeah it's it's 0.70

01:47:09 a manifesto on let's take back the nation first we take back the culture and we do that through

01:47:15 marriage, family, Christian identity. It's basically all the stuff y'all know as Christian

01:47:21 nationalism, but I'm coming, you know, maybe from a more natural law, Augustinian, Thomas Aquinas,

01:47:26 medieval approach to it. So, you know, if you're interested in the same kind of content, but maybe

01:47:31 a different angle, I think it'd be a great book. You can pre-order at christianpatriot.com and you

01:47:36 can follow me on X, my name, Dr. Taylor Marshall, and I have a YouTube channel, Dr. Taylor Marshall

01:47:41 podcast and a website taylormarshall.com so just type in my name you can probably find it all

01:47:46 awesome well thank you again and i'll leave you with this i'd love to have you um again in the

01:47:52 future if you're interested i'd love to get uh dr stephen wolf on here as well uh to have a

01:47:57 conversation because i i think that you would i mean you guys are gonna he's protestant he's um

01:48:01 presbyterian you'll disagree on um theological convictions but um but just for the record he

01:48:07 is a Thomist. Um, so the, uh, I, I would encourage you if you ever get the chance to

01:48:13 read the case for Christian nationalism, I think you'll find, um, a lot of similarities because

01:48:18 he's, he's not, um, he's not Vantillian. He's, he's not in the, uh, he's not as much presuppositional

01:48:24 or theanolic. He's very like, he's, he is, um, if you follow him on Twitter, like over the last

01:48:30 two years he's just continually getting raked over the coals um for um his affinity with aquinas

01:48:38 so he is he is an aquinas respecter um certainly and so i think you guys would have a lot in common

01:48:44 and it'd be an interesting conversation that'd be great yeah let's do it cool all right thanks

01:48:49 so much we appreciate it thank you to the listener for tuning in and we will see you again on friday

01:48:54 lord willing

01:49:00 Thank you.

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The NXR Podcast - August 20, 2025

THE LIVESTREAM - Red Heifers & The End Times with Dr. Taylor Marshall

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Transcript