The NXR Podcast - THE LIVESTREAM - The Antioch Declaration： Where Do We Go From Here？

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00:00:44.780 Last week, the Antioch Declaration dropped, and it caused quite a stir.

00:00:50.280 Is this the bridge to end the brother wars within the Reformed world, or is it just another log to stoke the fire?

00:00:58.360 Many have already begun to critique the statement, asking questions about what it means and exposing certain problems.

00:01:05.820 Today, we'll take a closer look at some of the parts that are simply unclear, and others that we entirely disagree with.

00:01:13.760 It probably goes without saying that I will not be signing the Antioch Declaration.

00:01:18.780 and what we hope to accomplish with this episode

00:01:22.620 towards the middle and end

00:01:24.220 is answering what we believe is the most important question.

00:01:27.880 Where do we go from here?

00:01:39.520 All right, welcome back, G.A.

00:01:41.980 G.A.

00:01:42.420 G.A.

00:01:43.160 Here we are.

00:01:43.960 It is the day before Thanksgiving, Thanksgiving Eve,

00:01:46.900 if that's such a thing.

00:01:47.760 I don't know if it is,

00:01:48.560 But I mean, I suppose by definition, by definition, I mean, it quite literally is Thanksgiving Eve.

00:01:53.520 I don't know if that's a national holiday, but tomorrow is Thanksgiving, a very American holiday that we're all excited to celebrate with friends and family.

00:02:00.300 And I thought in this episode, so we're going to be dealing with the Antioch Declaration and we're going to be dealing with some of the larger pieces beyond just the declaration.

00:02:09.180 We will get into a little bit of of the particulars and certain aspects of the declaration that we think are unclear and certain aspects that we entirely disagree with.

00:02:18.560 But that said, we also want to deal at kind of a macro level with, you know, relationally and strategically, even somewhat pastorally, but in some sense, even more so politically, what declarations like this do, why we think they're particularly unhelpful as we seek to actually try to acquire tangible power, not for ourselves, but for the glory of Christ in the world.

00:02:48.220 because we want to see these United States and other nations alike be Christianized.

00:02:54.960 And it's hard to do that if you are continuing to divide your forces.

00:03:00.320 And so if there, you know, there are times, we know from Scripture,

00:03:03.740 where, you know, Jesus says, I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.

00:03:06.680 From this time going forward, a family, a household of five, you know,

00:03:10.740 there'll be two against three, three against two.

00:03:12.760 I'll turn, you know, father against son, son against father, you know,

00:03:16.580 mother against daughter, daughter against mother. So there is oftentimes within the body of Christ

00:03:23.660 where division is necessary when it's distinguishing the people of God from the world.

00:03:31.220 God does call us out of the world. We live in the world, but we're not of the world. So out

00:03:35.660 in that aspect that we are actually to be separate, distinct, different from the world.

00:03:41.420 And so there are times where we need to draw a dividing line. And there are times, sadly,

00:03:45.880 because many false teachers have gone out into the world, many false prophets. There are times

00:03:51.160 where even within the realm of the church, that that sword that brings division is necessary

00:03:56.180 because like 1 John 2 says, they went out from us because they were never among us. So there is

00:04:01.800 often within the body of Christ and throughout this gospel age, a sifting process. And we

00:04:06.700 acknowledge that. But there is also a way, the Puritans even spoke of this, in part because

00:04:12.100 some of the Puritans were particularly guilty of this, there is a way to over-purify the church.

00:04:17.820 There is a way to be unnecessarily divisive with the church. And then it's also important 0.96

00:04:25.060 when we look beyond teachers and leaders and pastors within the church, when we look to the

00:04:30.600 congregation itself, those congregants and parishioners that make up the church,

00:04:35.740 it can be difficult at times, but pastors have a moral obligation to be able to distinguish

00:04:41.120 between a bruised reed or a smoldering wick versus a goat.

00:04:47.140 In other words, there is often times within the body of Christ

00:04:52.640 where pastors have to deal, and sometimes even deal forcefully.

00:04:57.900 It's not to say that there can't be a strong hand in this,

00:05:01.980 but pastors often have to deal with unruly sheep,

00:05:05.980 but yet have the wherewithal to be able to recognize

00:05:09.340 that an unruly sheep really is still a sheep and not a goat. And then also recognizing that

00:05:15.760 there are also goats. And so there's just a lot going on. We're going to deal with that,

00:05:19.980 but I want to start from the outset with just a bit of humor. So for those of you who have been

00:05:24.980 following, we have been kind of plugging the last two weeks saying that we were going to deal with

00:05:31.160 the new Bonhoeffer movie. And so the goal was to do kind of a full movie review and a couple

00:05:39.120 things happened that were just outside of our control there was nothing we could do about it

00:05:42.800 uh so the three of us did go to the movie theater last night um but we we watched gladiator and so

00:05:49.900 uh you know we we thought like man we need to watch the bonhoeffer movie for the sake of you

00:05:54.980 know uh cultural and historical uh theological research uh this will serve the body of christ 0.89

00:06:00.760 there are uh there are you know god bless them but they're just um naive uh boomers in the world 0.51

00:06:06.220 that you know and bonhoeffer is just classic boomer fuel and they need to be warned um but 0.64

00:06:12.700 we just couldn't bring ourselves to do it we we went and we ended up watching um an interesting

00:06:18.160 movie instead of uh the really really boring movie and so we didn't watch bonhoeffer we will

00:06:24.020 try to get to it uh in the coming weeks and do a full movie review i think that that'll be helpful

00:06:28.320 um and then part of the reason we didn't watch it is because gladiator uh just even without

00:06:33.660 seen Bonhoeffer. I know for a fact, objectively, that Gladiator, the new Gladiator movie is

00:06:37.960 just definitively better than the Bonhoeffer movie. And so The Temptation was just far too

00:06:42.880 great. And then secondly, we were unable to get free tickets. And so, you know, there's been,

00:06:49.540 some of you have probably seen online, that there's been a promise made by Angel Studios

00:06:54.540 that for anybody who's anti-Semitic, that they can receive free tickets to Bonhoeffer. And so

00:06:59.780 I went up to the ticket person at the theater and I said, I would like a free ticket to the

00:07:06.820 movie Bonhoeffer. And they said, what are you talking about? And I said, well, this promise

00:07:10.420 has been made that if you're anti-Semitic, that you can watch it. And he said, well, prove it. 0.59

00:07:15.540 How do I know that you're really anti-Semitic? And I said, well, have you heard of the Antioch

00:07:18.740 Declaration? I didn't sign it. And I expected him to give me 10 tickets. Yeah. I thought I'd

00:07:27.080 have a whole theater to myself um but turns out he said well i don't even know what that is

00:07:31.780 and i don't think it makes you anti-semitic not to sign it the movie ticket guy he gets it um

00:07:38.100 certain reform pastors don't uh so all right on that note um did you see the text message i just

00:07:44.020 sent i don't know if it's possible to get it up there but uh i took this picture last night as

00:07:48.240 we were walking in to the theater and it has the movie listings yeah um and it has gladiator 2

00:07:54.560 and then it has bonhoeffer uh pastor spy and then the very next movie which was listed right in

00:08:02.560 order assassin heretic gladiator 2 bonhoeffer pastor spy heretic there you go so even all three

00:08:12.420 of those are actually true amc they already get it like is our video even necessary even the movie

00:08:17.280 theaters they understand that bonhoeffer was a heretic so we walked into the wrong theater by

00:08:21.140 the way gladiator 2 they both came out this weekend one was much more populated let's just

00:08:26.020 say that let's just say that yeah yeah uh which that's there there it is you love to see it oh

00:08:30.160 there it is gladiator 2 bonhoeffer pastors spy sometimes just you know there's just no better

00:08:37.680 word than delicious to describe i want to give credit i took my son last night he's he's actually

00:08:42.340 he's the one who pointed it out that's hilarious god's providence is often delicious all right

00:08:48.120 So let's begin.

00:08:50.880 We are going to get into the meat of the statement, or the lack thereof, you know, but the details of the statement and discuss that.

00:08:58.140 But before, at kind of a macro level, we wanted to share a clip from Oren McIntyre, a friend of ours.

00:09:04.500 He did an episode today, and he did a really good job of kind of staying out of it, because it's really not his fight.

00:09:10.140 It's something, an intramural skirmish within the reformed world, and particularly not even the whole reformed world, but what I would describe as the muscular section of the reformed world.

00:09:22.180 So guys who are a little bit more politically inclined and trying to engage politics and culture.

00:09:29.440 So it's really not as much of a skirmish within the G3 waters or the MacArthur waters.

00:09:34.860 It's more of a Moscow apology, a Georgetown, Ogden, Wolfe, Stephen Wolfe, kind of intramural debate within those camps.

00:09:43.840 Ezra Institute would be another example.

00:09:45.700 So in other words, it's part of the things that we have to realize is just we are a very small world.

00:09:54.820 We're a very small world.

00:09:56.200 And so that's what you'll notice part of the sentiment from Oren that I think did a really good job at a 30,000-foot level saying this is intramural, you know, brother war, but it's being hashed out publicly for a bunch of people to see.

00:10:13.580 It's not a good look, and he's kind of bemoaning that because he likes the muscular reform.

00:10:19.040 he's not really necessarily part of it, but he likes our camp and has relationships with us and

00:10:24.620 with Andrew Isker and Stephen Wolf and CJ and others. And so he's rooting for us. He's not

00:10:30.080 necessarily, we're all in the same macro level team, but he's not in our particular specific

00:10:38.200 camp, but he loves us and is rooting for us and doesn't just love us. He loves Moscow and those

00:10:43.780 guys too and so um so anyway so he did i think a really helpful uh clip uh without getting into the

00:10:49.680 this side's wrong and this side's right but just saying uh guys just um tactically uh strategically

00:10:56.600 speaking this is just this is a bummer so here we go this is a clip from or so when i see something

00:11:04.760 like this declaration what i see is a very obvious attempt by people who are having an internal

00:11:11.360 personal spat to make that internal personal spat external to take things that should have been

00:11:20.120 resolved internally between people and instead bring it into public spheres where it will invite

00:11:27.140 scrutiny and more importantly where the people who externalize the conflict are hoping they can

00:11:34.100 wield the power of cancellation.

00:11:36.680 They can wield the power of the secular consensus.

00:11:41.980 That's what I see.

00:11:42.860 Now they'll cloak that language in biblical language and say, oh, really,

00:11:46.480 we're only appealing to these biblical principles.

00:11:50.220 But if that was true, you would have kept it internal.

00:11:52.720 You're appealing externally for a reason.

00:11:54.700 And that's because it allows you to bring the weight of the mob.

00:11:57.660 And we see this all the time. 0.99

00:11:59.420 This is not just this one stupid internet drama instance. 1.00

00:12:02.260 we see this all the time with conservatives. If a conservative wants to cancel somebody, 0.99

00:12:09.100 what do they do? They attack them from the left. They don't attack them from the left.

00:12:18.500 Go ahead. I was going to say that's, uh, it's the, the framing. I feel like it's seen so much

00:12:24.800 online. Uh, we've talked about it before, but racist and anti-Semite just wielded as cudgels. 0.91

00:12:30.240 and that's from a leftist framing.

00:12:32.580 Those are terms that originated in Marxist,

00:12:34.500 communist, egalitarian thought.

00:12:36.600 And so when you see them just swung against brothers,

00:12:39.260 that is literally using tools created by the left

00:12:41.880 in the last hundred years

00:12:42.920 to crack down on the skulls of good Christian men. 1.00

00:12:45.820 And there may be, for sure, 0.76

00:12:47.880 brother, this was out of line.

00:12:49.300 This was sin.

00:12:50.340 But go there and then instead of,

00:12:52.320 again, the tools given to you by communists, 0.58

00:12:54.140 put the bat wrapped in barbed wire in your hand,

00:12:56.420 go to the scriptures and use that instead.

00:12:58.500 And so you're using those terms, that language, that framing.

00:13:02.060 All you're doing, then you reinforce the frame.

00:13:04.400 He talks about elsewhere in the episode that when you appeal to other courts,

00:13:09.780 like Paul, when he exhorts the Corinthians, he says,

00:13:13.180 don't go to the Roman court because then you're giving the impression,

00:13:15.800 you the state, you the Romans, you need to come rule over us.

00:13:18.900 No, keep it in the church and establish the authority of the church

00:13:21.360 to judge in these spiritual matters.

00:13:22.880 who should never, as Christians but also politically,

00:13:27.640 be appealing to the cultural left. 0.99

00:13:30.700 Come in and moderate.

00:13:31.700 Come supply us with the terms of this debate.

00:13:33.760 Come tell us so-and-so is out of line by the mob or whatever else it is.

00:13:38.100 Right.

00:13:38.880 Yeah, and I think so much of this is another way that Orne framed it on his show

00:13:44.240 was not even so much in theological terms.

00:13:47.720 And I know that the crafters of the statement would disagree at this point

00:13:52.740 And they would say, no, it's all theological.

00:13:54.780 It's all just biblical language.

00:13:57.540 But the way that Oren Framgy said, it's really not.

00:14:00.680 It's those who have a post-1950s, 60s view of the world

00:14:06.260 and those who have a pre-1950s, 60s view of the world.

00:14:09.520 And you can put Christian language on either side.

00:14:14.260 We, as moderns, are more well-rehearsed

00:14:18.700 in putting biblical language on the post-1950s, 60s.

00:14:22.400 So basically, it's a pretty clear disagreement that's more of a political and historical disagreement than it is theological.

00:14:32.740 It's those who believe that the Civil Rights Act is synonymous with the gospel of Jesus Christ, and then those who don't.

00:14:43.580 So like those who think that every single one of our Christian ancestors has been in sin until about 1967, and then those who don't.

00:14:51.560 And that's, I mean, that really is the divide is, so you could call it, you know, the lovey-dovey

00:14:58.660 guys versus the cold hard racist. That's one framing. And you can call that biblical framing,

00:15:06.200 but that's not what it is. Or you can be a little bit more honest and say, well, really, it's the

00:15:11.860 paleocons versus the moderns. And this is something that I've been kind of, you know, discussing a

00:15:18.260 little bit in the last few weeks as we've gotten in the chat, and we'll try to take some questions

00:15:21.940 today. But part of the reason, you know, people have said, Joel, it seems like you're gravitating,

00:15:25.960 you know, more and more away from theonomy. And part of the reason why is because I've realized

00:15:30.040 that the theonomic position, although I still would describe myself as a general equity

00:15:35.220 theonomic guy, you know, certainly looking at the Decalogue as a summation of the moral law of God,

00:15:42.300 and then looking at the civil codes given to Israel and extracting the general equity and

00:15:46.220 then applying it you know to our place in our time today but but allowing for uh for reason

00:15:51.260 and prudence and how we do that and all those kinds of things um so i would i would still you

00:15:56.460 know uh hold to that banner but my point is um now i i don't i i could be you know maybe there's

00:16:03.040 just some glaring example that i haven't read you know so i'm just ignorant here and if so then i

00:16:07.360 apologize ahead of time but um do you guys know of um because when i think of theonomy it's a

00:16:12.220 relatively new position uh so when i think of theonomy it's like man those guys are based those

00:16:16.960 guys hold to the bible and i remember like when i was coming into theonomy that was my first

00:16:20.840 impression and then and then like one of the things that kind of threw a wrench in the gears and

00:16:25.740 and i i and i never really got an answer for it was if theonomy is so biblical and so based

00:16:32.720 and so conservative of a position um then how did we end up with joel mcdermott

00:16:38.420 right like how do you how do you end up with a guy who's wearing a skin tight capri leather pants

00:16:45.600 and uh goes completely woke and uh is on board you know fully with black lives matter

00:16:54.280 and you know and just just drinking and and administering the woke right you know kool-aid 0.93

00:17:02.280 like i do you so here's my question do you guys know of any paleocon like you know like like

00:17:09.100 well-known whether you know pat buchanan or even like you know paul godfrey do you is there a

00:17:14.500 well-known because joel mcdermott was a well-known theonomist you know and and um so do you know of

00:17:19.920 like a well-known paleocon who started wearing skin tight leather uh capri pants and and started

00:17:26.280 you know joining the rallies at blm the joel mcdermott down will spiral for the record to

00:17:30.820 started after he got beat i think it's 2015 2016 in a debate he just he tried to bring theonomy to

00:17:35.900 the table and i don't know i don't remember who his debater was but he got trounced and that sent

00:17:40.000 jd hall jd hall um and that sent him in the spotlight just at least for him trying to combat

00:17:46.220 he did not have answers and that's what see on this track i i watched that debate and i don't

00:17:52.460 feel like it was the best debate but i don't think he got trounced i i felt like it was you know my

00:17:56.820 takeaway maybe i'd feel different if i watch it now but i my takeaway was that um that they're

00:18:03.440 like that it was kind of a stalemate that that was i i didn't feel like joel mcderman you know

00:18:07.340 just mopped the floor with jd hall but i didn't feel you know the opposite way either i felt like

00:18:12.060 it was kind of a stalemate and a lot of talking past each other and then never really ironed out

00:18:16.080 and proved that one side was you know actually you know superior to the other so i i didn't feel

00:18:21.020 like that and and more largely to my point um to me it doesn't it doesn't seem as though like

00:18:26.660 you know um his worldview didn't hold up joel mcdermans and he got beat publicly in a debate

00:18:31.760 and so then he gravitated away like what i get what i'm trying to um convey i think more more

00:18:37.560 specifically is um i don't think that joel uh this is what i'm seeing as the dangers um i don't see

00:18:44.340 joel is uh that he was um a base theonomist and then gave up theonomy for wokeness i see uh joel

00:18:52.020 if he was sitting here joel mcdermon i think he would say that theonomy is perfectly compatible

00:18:56.180 with wokeness i i think he would i think he would say that um yeah i haven't given up my

00:19:03.060 prior conviction would not you know david reese would not yeah those guys wouldn't and i love

00:19:07.700 love david reese but um but no i that's the way i see it that that's like um and because what

00:19:14.640 they'll do is they would go so here's how you get there like to substantiate my claim yeah is um all

00:19:20.180 the things about sojourners yep right like so like um like just the other day you know a well-known

00:19:25.320 theonomist was posting you know um you shall treat the sojourner yeah as a native citizen

00:19:31.200 well that is that's in the bible and a theonomic you know uh the theonomic position can be a bit

00:19:38.380 biblicist rigid rigid and like i so so then anybody who comes into your country you treat

00:19:45.560 them and and i would and i would just be like well no but that's not what the verse is saying

00:19:49.760 it doesn't mean that all of a sudden they should be treated as though you know their ancestors 15

00:19:54.260 generations have been in your country with all the same um privileges and all this like no there's

00:19:59.860 still a sojourner they should not be unnecessarily oppressed or uh or stolen from or you know uh the

00:20:07.700 the weight of the law in a political sense in a legislative sense um you know wielded against

00:20:13.580 them in order to exploit them for all their goods you know uh but but no like the the sojourner who

00:20:20.040 has come into israel and been there for all of 15 minutes is not a native israelite and should not

00:20:25.600 be treated exactly that misses the point joel because the word sojourner is not the same as

00:20:32.920 the word immigrant right a sojourner is one who travels and then goes back yeah the intention of

00:20:38.680 a sojourner is to maybe you're there for a while because your country had a famine right and so

00:20:43.060 you come and then you but you're like you have a round-trip ticket and so it's it's a false

00:20:48.520 equivalency to say that sojourner passages apply to what we have with immigration in america today

00:20:53.540 because a sojourner was one who traveled and intended to go back, right?

00:20:58.940 Like maybe, you know, the famine never cleared up

00:21:01.700 and they were never able to go back.

00:21:03.840 But that's like, they were not there as this is now my country.

00:21:07.700 It's I have to come here for a while, but my ties are still back in my land.

00:21:11.280 And even Israel, they're called sojourners,

00:21:13.740 even though they were in Egypt for 400 years. 0.97

00:21:16.820 But that entire time, their intention was we've got to get out of here. 0.98

00:21:21.480 We've got to get back, right?

00:21:22.780 Like, it was never—so I think some of the problem with some of the takes by modern theonomists is I'm not even opposed to trying to find those principles, but I would say you miss the principle.

00:21:34.960 The principle is a visitor gets treated properly with the same respect and laws that you apply to everyone else.

00:21:41.460 But an invader, you treat it as an invader, you know?

00:21:45.640 Right.

00:21:45.760 And someone pointed out, too, this provision, if that foreigner or sojourner was to blaspheme, they would receive capital punishment. 0.53

00:21:52.580 That's right.

00:21:53.340 And we're kind of quiet about that part.

00:21:55.080 That's right.

00:21:55.300 That's what it comes with. 0.99

00:21:56.140 Okay, yeah, welcome the sojourner, the foreigner, as they travel through your land. 1.00

00:21:59.440 And if they set up and decide, well, we're going to worship Allah here or get out a praying mat, 1.00

00:22:04.060 it would be, in the Old Testament system, capital punishment.

00:22:06.840 Oh, that part's not very palatable.

00:22:09.260 That part doesn't square very well with classical liberalism.

00:22:12.180 I think to go back to your point earlier, Joel, part of this is that our definitions

00:22:17.660 of what we see reflected in biblical passages

00:22:20.820 even have been influenced by the way that the West

00:22:26.880 has moved in the post-war consensus.

00:22:29.720 Our time period.

00:22:30.320 Yeah, it's our time period.

00:22:31.380 It's been influenced by the Civil Rights Act.

00:22:33.180 It's been influenced by globalism.

00:22:34.920 It's been influenced by some degree of universalism,

00:22:38.320 not applied necessarily to soteriology

00:22:40.900 that everybody's going to heaven,

00:22:42.040 but I think it has been applied

00:22:43.440 when it comes to an idea of what is a nation

00:22:45.440 and what is citizenship and who are these things available to,

00:22:50.420 that is just—my point is that has affected, I think,

00:22:54.020 every single element of Christianity.

00:22:56.220 So to stop picking on theonomy now,

00:22:58.580 I guess my main point is not to say that theonomy finds itself

00:23:02.440 particularly vulnerable to modernism,

00:23:05.520 but my point is at least, at minimum,

00:23:07.860 to say that theonomy is not invulnerable or immune to modernism.

00:23:15.440 that just becoming a theonomist i remember thinking that like you know three four years ago

00:23:20.560 yeah that if i was post-millennial and theonomist uh theonomic that um that that would be sufficient

00:23:27.240 and make me immune uh to being a lib um but joel mcderman is a lib um and he is still a theonomist

00:23:37.240 and so um theonomy does not make you immune to uh to being a lib um it certainly doesn't make

00:23:44.700 you immune if anything it almost forces you to be a lib butarian which is just a you know a lib

00:23:51.340 and i'm the eternal optimist theonomy is young at least rush dooney's very right we've only had 50

00:23:57.360 years to see the fruit the story could be different in 100 or 150 at least this point

00:24:02.920 the play the tape back it's not great probably about the i would say the 30 year mark or so

00:24:08.760 you have rush dooney passes away gary north obviously passed away a few years ago bonson

00:24:13.140 really brilliant sharp mind as that first generation went away common saying lord save

00:24:18.060 me from my disciples the disciples and the proteges that have taken this up and to be fair

00:24:22.440 there's a broader context that they're trying to do this within uh not looking good so you're a

00:24:27.700 theonomist you're based you want to see god's law then make it so that the next hundred years right

00:24:32.500 in the next hundred years we can point to it and say uh no theonomy uh answers these questions and

00:24:37.200 it's rigorous and it's strong yeah yeah and i you know when i came into theonomy uh general equity

00:24:44.800 theonomy i just i i know it was a new term but i looked back at the way that english common law

00:24:51.780 started writing scripture and i just thought okay this is a new term but this is part of the

00:24:57.360 reformed and anglo-protestant tradition right and you know i realized that definitely the puritans

00:25:02.920 yes that was what pushed me over the edge was as i was like well if it's good enough for the

00:25:06.500 puritans well but common law goes back way before the puritans right yeah i know uh but i was just

00:25:10.920 saying like like now i look with a little bit more of a informed view i look at you know the

00:25:15.440 the founding of america and i'm able to you know actually distinguish between like the puritans

00:25:21.060 and then others who were of of the reformed uh you know cloth but they but they weren't necessarily

00:25:26.960 part of the puritans and they would have had um a different way of understanding things and doing

00:25:31.880 things but the puritan i think the puritans it's safe to say that although the term wasn't there

00:25:35.640 they were theonomic right in many ways so that's totally fair to say that uh the ideas have been

00:25:40.760 there for a long time beyond just 50 years well this is the division it seems like it goes

00:25:44.980 nature history tradition different sides falling on different ends like you mentioned skinny jeans

00:25:52.460 and it's funny but it's kind of true a group of people like oh what's what's effeminate about a

00:25:56.560 man wearing skinny jeans you know why does a man have to be strong and those are just those are

00:26:01.140 high level kind of characters of one side and then the other side that's like no let's read

00:26:06.180 some aristotle uh in our in our civics class let's understand him let's lose the dad bond

00:26:11.160 stephen wolf says this in his book nine times out of ten those are kind of where the sides are

00:26:15.480 falling nature grace tradition modernity that's kind of what's running through this theme the

00:26:21.440 theonomy the antioch declaration that's what's parsing it out at least that's my assessment and

00:26:26.660 One of the things, Stephen Wolfe was on Real Grace, Free Grace.

00:26:31.640 Abounding Grace.

00:26:32.140 Abounding Grace, yeah.

00:26:33.440 And he kept saying our perspective.

00:26:36.180 That guy didn't like me at the end.

00:26:37.500 Did you watch it?

00:26:38.040 I did watch it.

00:26:38.640 But Stephen Wolfe kept saying the perspective that you, Gordon, are espousing is really novel in history.

00:26:46.400 like we just have to realize that what has happened in the west and in christianity over

00:26:51.460 the last 50 60 70 years is not how christianity has been for a very long time i'm not saying

00:26:59.000 that the scholastic era or the medieval era had bodybuilding monks right like

00:27:04.580 and we're not going to retcon all of that but right i think as i've really thought through

00:27:11.220 because i'm the oldest one here and i can be frank with the audience i have the hardest time

00:27:16.120 this conflict right like um i just i'm like i don't want to i don't want to get i don't want

00:27:20.920 to get involved right yeah but as i've d as i've tried to detangle what is going on really i think

00:27:25.640 it is we've introduced a lot of new ideas that are not traditional not historical not natural

00:27:32.200 and in some ways not biblical into the west into christian society and what we're doing

00:27:38.040 it's like a hook once it gets swallowed it's much harder getting the hook out

00:27:42.040 than getting the hook in. And to some degree, I've kind of resigned myself to the fact that

00:27:46.100 the project of the next while is getting the hooks out. And that's not a fun process.

00:27:52.540 Yeah, it's going to hurt. Let's go to our first commercial break. When we come back,

00:27:56.440 we're going to be putting up on the screen exact statements from the declaration,

00:28:00.560 ones that we think are unclear, and then even perhaps more importantly, some ones that we

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00:29:57.320 that we're supposed to obey.

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00:31:09.060 so contact us today before our interview window closes in January. Call Elijah at Top Knot with

00:31:15.800 the phone number that's listed in the description for this show. Go to the description. The phone

00:31:21.180 number for Elijah with Top Knot will be right there. Give him a call today. All right, a couple

00:31:27.400 of housekeeping things real quick. This is from Tom Askell. As the darkness clears away. As the

00:31:34.040 darkness clears away, this is their new, from Founders Ministry, their new Christmas devotional,

00:31:39.760 and my wife and I and our family are going to be using it. Tom was gracious enough to send it to

00:31:43.900 me, so go and check out the Founders website if you want to get one of those. And then also,

00:31:48.420 somebody just, they're not even trying to sell something, they just personalized this

00:31:52.760 for me um and so that but i want to plug their company they didn't even ask me to but axe head

00:31:59.280 axe head is the name of it and uh he's i guess a leather worker but he just reached out and said

00:32:05.100 hey sorry you're going through all the controversy on um you know everything that's been going down

00:32:10.340 for the last month or so and so yeah he made uh he made coasters we've got these coasters

00:32:14.780 and i guess these are stir sticks it makes me think of like if you're making old-fashioned

00:32:19.320 or something like that and then so anyways uh really really cool gift probably it might be the

00:32:23.780 coolest gift i've ever gotten michael and i are going to arm muscle for the second one that's

00:32:27.300 right patreon that's where you can watch it and so speaking of gifts uh if you would uh if you

00:32:34.740 would be uh so kind and generous to consider uh giving an end of the year gift we're coming up on

00:32:39.940 the end of the year uh and we are uh we do have uh offered tax deductions and so we are 501c3 we

00:32:47.080 operate in that vein, because we want to benefit you, the people of God, as much as we can.

00:32:54.780 I've gotten people, you know, over the years who have said, well, that just makes you a wing of

00:32:59.860 the state. And I'm like, have you listened to any episode I've ever done? We, you know, like we have

00:33:05.360 been threatened, I get death threats, you know, all kinds of things. And so, you know, my motto is,

00:33:11.200 as it pertains to the state with this particular topic, it's not my motto with everything, but on

00:33:15.420 this topic is um i can uh i'd rather ask forgiveness than permission so i'm gonna you

00:33:21.120 know i'm gonna use the 501c3 not for us um it's for you so that you can actually get a tax write

00:33:26.880 off on your donations and so uh all that being said and i'll do it as long as i can until they

00:33:32.020 take it away in true texas fashion my mindset has been come and take it you know so um so it's not

00:33:36.800 like oh we're telling you know joel's over there compromising you know um uh you know with uh the

00:33:42.880 us government, you know, or whatever. So, um, we, we don't hold any punches. We tell things as it

00:33:48.660 really is. Um, but as long as we can get away, uh, and keep, um, the ability to give you a tax

00:33:54.840 write-off, then we're doing that for your sake. So if you'd like to give us, uh, an end of the

00:33:59.060 year donation, we'd really appreciate that. There's a lot that we want to do next year.

00:34:02.280 We're going to take the live stream, uh, that we're doing on Wednesdays and make it three times

00:34:05.600 a week, Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, uh, continue to do the Friday special, uh, in addition

00:34:11.080 into three live streams a week.

00:34:13.160 We're also gonna be breaking down our live streams

00:34:15.620 into sections and releasing those as isolated clips.

00:34:19.040 So it's a little bit more palatable.

00:34:21.560 So you have like a 20 minute video

00:34:23.700 that's particularly on one topic.

00:34:25.660 Sometimes we do two hour,

00:34:28.000 often an hour and a half to two hour live streams

00:34:30.200 and it won't be to the final 30 minutes

00:34:31.820 that we get into a particular topic

00:34:33.440 that just organically arises,

00:34:34.900 but it's really good for the church.

00:34:36.560 And a lot of people frankly just don't make it that far.

00:34:39.800 Yeah, exactly.

00:34:40.720 So we deal with questions from the chat, and some of the questions are phenomenal and could be their own little 15-minute episode because we really try to be thorough in answering them.

00:34:49.660 And a lot of people miss that because a lot of people, when you're watching a video, you don't always make it to the end, especially if the video is an hour and a half, two hours long.

00:34:57.680 But all that just takes time.

00:34:59.500 You've got to make thumbnails for all of that.

00:35:00.980 Somebody has to do video editing.

00:35:02.500 And so we already have people in mind, and we need to be able to pay them.

00:35:07.000 So we have some equipment needs.

00:35:09.060 We have staff needs.

00:35:10.500 There's just more that we want to do, so we're not just asking for more money so that we can

00:35:14.820 be comfortable. We're asking for more money so that we can produce, by the grace of God, more

00:35:18.560 fruit and produce more content for you. And so, if you'd like to be able to give a gift and do it

00:35:24.500 with a tax deduction, then you can go to rightresponseministries.com forward slash donate.

00:35:32.400 Again, that's rightresponseministries forward slash donate. Okay, let's go ahead and pull up

00:35:39.020 The first portion of the statement that we want to deal with.

00:35:42.680 So just to be clear, you know, many people have done point by point podcasts on the statement.

00:35:49.140 Maybe at some point that happens.

00:35:51.840 That's not necessarily the goal today.

00:35:53.900 The goal is just to highlight why really Joel is the one that matters, why Joel is not signing the statement.

00:36:00.240 And there are two reasons I think we could boil it down to.

00:36:04.040 Some of the statement is just unclear and vague and not helpful.

00:36:07.800 it's like what why would i affirm this it's not objectively a false statement but it's also just a

00:36:14.280 a very unusual thing to say especially in a statement or declaration of theology in the

00:36:19.140 life of the church so there's that category and then there's some um that we want to just say

00:36:24.120 hey actually we can't sign the declaration because of disagreement actual disagreement

00:36:29.540 over this point like not just it's not helpful it's not clear but we don't disagree we don't

00:36:35.120 agree with this point at all so uh the first one is in in relation to the study of science and i'm

00:36:41.800 going to read it and then i'm going to make a comment and then i'll pass it on uh it says we

00:36:45.340 affirm that if the super abundant diverse forms of the veritable glut of evidence detailed in

00:36:51.700 diaries documented records firsthand testimonies of eyewitnesses extensive photography and

00:36:56.160 videography all provided within living memory for the deliberate mass destruction of millions of

00:37:00.420 Jews by the Nazis does not amount to historical certitude for what specialists call the Holocaust,

00:37:06.080 then, not specialists, everyone calls it that, but anyway, then the science of history itself

00:37:10.860 is called into question. Okay, so in a nutshell, what they're saying is,

00:37:15.840 we worry that if we question the record about the Holocaust, we undermine the science of history.

00:37:23.060 If you can't believe the Holocaust, you can't believe anything, is basically what they're saying.

00:37:26.800 That's what they're saying. 0.95

00:37:27.360 And so they're saying, in order for us, they're basically saying, it's just silly.

00:37:33.180 It's basically an argument saying, well, one of the reasons that you have to affirm the Holocaust isn't even necessarily because it's true. 0.67

00:37:39.080 And of course, you know, the guys who penned this statement would say that it's true. 0.94

00:37:41.820 But hear me out.

00:37:43.900 If you think of it on its face, logically, the point that's being made is, even if it wasn't true, it's still worth affirming.

00:37:49.820 uh because um because you you either have six million uh and you hold that to your dying breath

00:37:58.980 six million and if anyone questions it just for good measure you add another million you know so

00:38:04.100 now now it's seven million now it's eight so it's either that on the one hand or total chaos and

00:38:08.880 anarchy on the other and i'm like that is just that is a false dichotomy that doesn't exist um

00:38:14.020 somebody could have serious questions about uh the validity of the holocaust or the measures that

00:38:18.960 were taken or the numbers that have been cited or this that and the other um pat buchanan did

00:38:23.760 yeah well here's another one talking about theonomy before it got gay um that you know back

00:38:29.200 with you know the the original guys rush duney for 30 years rush duney and he made it as a matter he 0.55

00:38:35.560 made it a moral issue and tying it to the scripture and these guys would do the same thing but he did

00:38:39.500 on the other side of the fence and so the point is that the whole founder of the theonomic movement

00:38:44.880 your boy right you're like talking about honoring spiritual fathers your theonomic spiritual father

00:38:50.840 rush duny uh from the same i know what you guys are getting to you're getting to a biblical

00:38:54.640 principle namely the ninth commandment and not bearing false witness and you're saying well

00:38:59.320 there's been so much testimony to go against it is uh is you're going against two or three

00:39:04.020 witnesses and in this case you're going against thousands of witnesses and all this kind of stuff

00:39:07.440 and um and so it's a breach of the ninth commandment that you're actually um that you're

00:39:12.180 actually slandering all these people as being a liar unless you can prove it without a shadow

00:39:16.380 of a doubt and blah blah blah and um but but that was the same argument that russia duny used from

00:39:21.620 the other side for 30 years russia duny uh went on public record saying uh yeah six million i don't

00:39:29.240 think so specifically calling to question a lot of it was a lot of soviets at nuremberg and so

00:39:34.020 the soviets were the ones that tortured witnesses caused them to bear false witness as we said even

00:39:38.460 win soviets versus nazis even when you're opposed to someone you are not permitted to level false

00:39:43.320 charges at them the way the soviets did to the nazis at nuremberg that's his argument on the

00:39:47.760 basis he's kind of so his argument is that the ninth commandment was breached and uh and that

00:39:52.900 by uh giving your consent to the six million number was you agreeing with ninth commandment

00:39:58.360 breakers right uh and and here's the deal yes the record does state that towards the very end of

00:40:04.880 Rush Dooney's life in his final years, he actually went back and said, eh, okay. But here's the deal,

00:40:12.240 for 30 years, Rush Dooney was perfectly comfortable being publicly known by today's

00:40:18.580 standards, right? Because today, I mean, if you think it's 5,999,999, you're a holocauster,

00:40:24.660 you know? Like, depending who you ask, definitely the ADO. I mean, and so if you're a big dog and

00:40:31.500 you say something like that i mean you guys remember how it wasn't that long ago that elon

00:40:34.780 musk you know like you know he was losing all these advertisers off of x you know because of

00:40:39.340 the adl and their ridiculous standards and and so he's losing like x is losing like 80 90 of all

00:40:46.080 of its advertising uh income and he just barely bought the platform he's trying he still was

00:40:51.140 working on a subscription model all these kinds of things to make it profitable and so you know

00:40:55.220 he's getting massive pressure and he was on that panel remember and he had like this pretty awesome

00:40:58.920 moment where he stood up to all the advertisers and a lot of a lot of guys who were heads of

00:41:03.500 companies who were jewish and in bed with the adl and some guys on the adl and he said f you you

00:41:09.180 know like um and uh and and but then what happened well two weeks later he was kissing the wall

00:41:15.280 wearing the little hat with ben shapiro he got got the big call he got shut it down right he got

00:41:20.580 the call and so my point is um and and nowhere in that did here's my point as it relates to rush

00:41:27.460 duty and our larger topic nowhere in that did um even in his in his uh most courageous moment when

00:41:34.300 he's standing up and saying i'm gonna i i don't care if i lose every dime and you're not gonna

00:41:38.820 hold me hostage free speech is gonna stand i don't care about the adl i don't care about the zionist

00:41:43.280 you can't make me do this and apparently the richest man in the world can still somehow two 0.70

00:41:48.980 weeks later wind up at the the wall kissing the wall and wearing the little hat so that like for

00:41:54.500 anybody who's wondering, you know. So anyways, yes, there is real Zionist power in the world. 0.74

00:42:00.500 But that said, before he got the call, shut it down. Before he got the call, he had this strong 0.72

00:42:07.760 moment. But my point is this, even in his strong moment, nowhere is there any record of Elon saying,

00:42:14.620 oh, and also, not only F you about the advertising and the money thing, but also the Holocaust never

00:42:20.500 happened and uh there's no way the ovens could have you know that the math doesn't add up and

00:42:25.120 uh wooden doors you know doesn't make any sense and it was just a lice outbreak you know and it

00:42:30.360 wasn't actually gas chambers it was just showers you know and people were malnourished because you

00:42:34.260 know churchill cut off the trade and like he didn't say any of that right he didn't say any of

00:42:38.560 that um and yet he was still deemed as an anti-semitic and and had to go through the ritual

00:42:47.060 the same as everybody else you can't be a u.s president right if you don't go to the wall and

00:42:51.880 wear the hat you can't be the vice president unless you go to the wall wear the hat everybody's like

00:42:57.020 uh what's his name you know in argentina you know like oh yeah i only have your yeah he's so

00:43:01.640 courageous and you're like there is not one guy right or left who gets into any position of power

00:43:08.240 with a without having a small hat and i'm not saying they themselves are a jew but they have

00:43:14.680 to pay homage they have to greg abbott there's pictures of him wheeling up in the chair wheeling

00:43:20.200 and weeping yeah just wheeling and weeping uh god god bless him you know um and so you know just a

00:43:25.340 just a pinch of incest uh incest a pinch of uh i did that like months ago and you're like get that 0.71

00:43:31.920 out of your system yeah incense uh at the wailing wall you know uh to the false god of judaism and 0.51

00:43:37.200 so my point is just saying this um rush duty wasn't unhinged rush duty wasn't saying nothing 0.54

00:43:42.020 bad ever happened or and hitler's the last christian prince i think there are ways that

00:43:46.820 you can go too far where it's historically indefensible in hitler's own words um so it's

00:43:52.620 just historically indefensible and um and and it's morally uh reprehensible because it's it's

00:43:58.720 denying you're going against somebody's own admission so by biblical measures even if you

00:44:03.340 don't have two or three witnesses if if somebody confesses that's why you know when there's

00:44:07.860 detectives and interrogations of this like you're going for a confession confession because if you

00:44:11.760 get a confession, it's over. And so just even by Hitler's own words and certain aspects with this,

00:44:17.100 that, and the other. So anybody who's saying, you know, Hitler's the last Christian prince and

00:44:21.720 he's great, that is, I think, tactically stupid, historically indefensible, and morally 1.00

00:44:28.780 reprehensible. And so that's just dumb. And as Stephen Wolf has said, and I've said, and 1.00

00:44:33.880 Login has said, everybody on our side, like if you're looking for, I understand, 1930s Germany,

00:44:38.700 they did some good things that's great um and they did they really did do some good things and there

00:44:42.780 are parallels to what was happening in germany and what's happening here i get all of it

00:44:47.020 but if you're looking for heroes to imitate uh george washington will do just fine right um

00:44:54.300 stonewall jackson is a fantastic robert e lee there are great heroes and you can even find

00:44:59.260 some controversial ones uh but but the controversial guys who were confederates in american history

00:45:05.420 Although the mainline consensus goes against them, too.

00:45:08.240 Here's one dynamic difference between them and Hitler.

00:45:11.760 These men loved Jesus. 0.72

00:45:14.420 They were undeniably, in their own words, Christians.

00:45:19.120 And not just, you know, hijacking a generic Christian language.

00:45:24.720 No, no, no.

00:45:25.700 Stonewall Jackson was a better theologian than most pastors today.

00:45:30.220 Dabney was his personal pastor.

00:45:31.800 They're back and forth.

00:45:32.780 Dabney's discipling, writing a biography of him.

00:45:35.420 so these were good men these are the guys so when you talk about like well we have a duty to um to

00:45:40.700 honor our fathers especially if they've been lied about you're right um but i'm an american i'm

00:45:46.240 celebrating thanksgiving tomorrow right like germany's not my fight um i care about my american

00:45:53.100 fathers um i care about my reformed fathers hitler was neither all these american guys with the

00:45:58.880 they were reformed they were american uh like these are our guys and they were they're actually

00:46:05.840 defensible and so um if you're looking for someone to uh to defend uh who's who's gotten bad press

00:46:11.380 it wasn't fair um okay well let's talk about stonewall jackson um if you're looking for an

00:46:16.240 example to follow let's look at the puritans looks let's look at the reformers let's look at

00:46:20.320 some of these confederate leaders would actually be good examples like stonewall jackson um we just

00:46:25.780 we don't need hitler for that however here's my my main point my main point is there is a gaping 0.73

00:46:31.580 chasm between hitler was the last christian prince the holocaust never happened but it should have 0.56

00:46:37.980 right that's how you know like that's the full that's that's the full nine yards if you're 0.69

00:46:43.020 wondering like what is the the the furthest that i could possibly be you know the furthest you can 0.98

00:46:48.440 possibly be is when you you arrive at saying uh the holocaust did not happen but it should have

00:46:52.720 um there's a big gap between that position which is not my position not even close and rush duny

00:47:00.520 saying i think that that there was some serious pressure by the bad guys the victors get to write

00:47:07.100 the history books and in this case the victors it wasn't just us we were not the only victors

00:47:11.660 we helped the communist to be victors the communist got to win because we let them and

00:47:19.580 And part of the reason why for the next 80 years or so, 50 to 80 years, we had to fight a cold war, not a hot war, but a cold war with the communists is because we came to the communist aid against the fascists.

00:47:32.100 So we picked the communists for a few years in a hot war.

00:47:35.520 So then we had to fight the communists for a few decades in a cold war.

00:47:40.040 Still fighting them.

00:47:40.700 Still fighting them.

00:47:41.540 Still fighting them. 0.85

00:47:43.340 Nazis are not the problem.

00:47:44.800 And here's the deal.

00:47:45.520 Are there thousands?

00:47:47.340 Right?

00:47:47.620 I'll admit.

00:47:48.340 I want to be truthful here.

00:47:49.580 in the spirit of not breaking the Ninth Commandment,

00:47:52.320 it's not just 14 anon accounts on X.

00:47:54.800 There are thousands of accounts,

00:47:56.900 thousands that have taken the entire bottle of red pills

00:47:59.840 on World War II and all that kind of stuff.

00:48:02.540 But here's the deal.

00:48:04.600 A lot of these guys go too far.

00:48:08.400 Some of these guys, and there actually are a lot,

00:48:11.100 really are good guys who are family men.

00:48:14.180 They're not just living in their mom's basement.

00:48:15.680 They have five kids.

00:48:16.480 They own their own business.

00:48:17.480 um but all of them the really bad guys and the the good guys and some of the guys in between

00:48:24.140 um none of these guys are congressmen uh right uh supreme court judges um senators yeah uh

00:48:37.220 those who own not just a business but own a business that makes billions not not just

00:48:43.340 millions but billions um so so when i think of real institutionally uh institutional power uh

00:48:51.220 that you know chancellor of of universities uh but when i think of real seat real levers of power

00:49:00.040 real positions of institutional power um what what let's just be honest what is our problem

00:49:06.960 is it fascism or communism is it nazis or bolsheviks right well there's thousands of

00:49:16.080 neo-nazis on twitter uh-huh yes and and um and occasionally we get a ten dollar donation from

00:49:23.800 one of them right okay but but but there are also thousands of straight-up communists

00:49:30.860 um who are currently running the world right and uh and that's part of what warren also talked

00:49:36.980 about in his episode just saying this guys this is silly pastorally though right so so maybe they

00:49:42.460 don't have real levers of power but if it happens to be a guy who's a member in your church and and

00:49:47.540 he's not just the rush duty position that was held for 30 years if i got some serious questions

00:49:51.780 because the guys who won the war got to do some of the trials and determine um how bad things

00:49:57.580 really happened and that seems a little sketchy to me that was rush duney's position um but are

00:50:02.840 there guys in churches who go further than that who are like last christian president uh-huh and

00:50:08.240 pastorally you should talk about it but this goes all the way back to the orn um clip if they're in

00:50:14.060 your churches then you can talk to them in your churches you can talk to them in your churches

00:50:20.760 What you don't necessarily need to do is make an intramural skirmish or a, even smaller, a local church pastoral issue public for the whole world to see.

00:50:36.460 That is strategically unhelpful as we're trying to win a larger war.

00:50:43.420 And the larger war is not against Nazis.

00:50:46.340 It's against communists.

00:50:47.760 something that has helped me and this took me a while to process again i'm i'm the oldest one

00:50:53.100 on the panel um something that clicked for me that was helpful and it goes right back to what

00:50:59.460 you said there joel there i think in the minds of a lot of people the only reason that they can

00:51:07.200 imagine why someone would want to question the historical record around world war ii is so that 0.73

00:51:13.400 they have a justification to go out and hate and abuse and kill jewish people that's a good point

00:51:19.320 michael and that is not the case you just gave rush duny who came at questioning that record 0.58

00:51:25.200 out of a love for god's law right and rush duny did not hate jews and there are other reasons like

00:51:31.620 the whole rise of the the post-war consensus where some of us are saying we are bound by a set of

00:51:37.960 assumptions and conditions and rules that came out of world war ii and we're wanting to question

00:51:44.660 the historical record not because we want to re you know persecute jews or whatever but because

00:51:49.840 we feel like these are our chains and constraints on the west and on our nation and that's that

00:51:54.720 that at its root is actually an honorable sentiment to want to be able to say why can't we as a nation

00:52:01.180 run ourselves properly great point cooper i was going to say he's on jay burden show and he said

00:52:05.460 it's like this foundational myth not in the myth of not true but it is a story because all the

00:52:10.580 evidence that they say in the antioch statement the pictures the photographs the record none of

00:52:14.880 those tell a story in and of itself you have to weave a narrative through it the narrative of

00:52:19.040 genocide the narrative of targeting of racial hate and it's that story woven through all the evidence

00:52:24.320 and then propped up i was in boston to visit a client for work there was a billboard there and

00:52:29.560 it was like a holocaust museum it was like the the display or the museum to awaken america's

00:52:34.560 conscience as in this is a story that has to be told and forced i mean how many previews for world

00:52:40.080 war ii movies do we see when we go to theater oh yeah at least two to three hollywood puts out

00:52:44.460 like i like there are world war ii movies about hitler like seven of them every single year and

00:52:50.900 have been for forever and it's this narrative that is that is load bearing we can't have this

00:52:57.020 because of the genocide that happened we can't have this because of that if you push back on

00:53:00.760 zionism that's just top stepping away from from the holocaust and so in breaking it down it's not 0.91

00:53:05.980 out of hate or out of malice but no genuinely we can't have a society that just sits on this one 0.89

00:53:11.460 event that even if all of it were true and all the genocide this side of the other there have

00:53:15.880 been millions like genocide happens that's what's terrible about war innocent people are brutally

00:53:21.440 murdered die and starve that's what happens and and this happened here to some degree the degree

00:53:27.120 is what we're we're talking about but um but man you just you can't have something unquestionable

00:53:31.960 the foundation of your society and be like yep this is going to last the next 200 years

00:53:36.000 and what's going to be our building you said something really interesting there you said

00:53:38.500 it's load bearing and that that makes me think two things quickly one you don't you don't knock

00:53:45.860 out a load bearing wall without having something i i almost did this once we were remodeling a house

00:53:50.960 and we were removing a wall and we're going to put a beam in we were going to replace the wall

00:53:55.540 with a big, we had an engineer, you know, give us the specs on the beam. But one of my friends who

00:54:00.260 was in construction, he goes, you're going to put up a temporary wall first, right? While you knock

00:54:04.380 out the main wall. And I was like, oh yeah, that was definitely on my list. Let me go. So I think

00:54:11.440 part of what some people legitimately are trying to do is they're trying to say, we need some

00:54:15.080 structures that are going to hold up the society, the historical narrative. And I think that we're,

00:54:23.320 I think we would be naive to say, yeah, we have it all figured out,

00:54:27.200 and so now we can knock out the beam.

00:54:29.100 What we're saying is, let's start quickly building up other walls

00:54:33.140 so our entire Western civilization doesn't rest on this one wall

00:54:37.740 of this single narrative that has been reinforced over and over.

00:54:42.820 We need other walls.

00:54:44.060 We need other walls.

00:54:44.800 And then we also do need to be knocking that wall down.

00:54:48.460 Right.

00:54:49.120 To go back to what you originally said, Michael, in the very beginning,

00:54:51.620 you said um uh to immediately impute that anybody who's questioning you know world war ii history

00:54:58.540 or things like that um to immediately impute to them a malice and hatred of the heart towards

00:55:04.100 jews right uh it just made me think that um part i think of what frustrates me in all this is um

00:55:09.920 like you could just like you could so easily it's the parallels are just um impossible to not see

00:55:17.920 at least for me that would be like saying anybody who questions civil war so history

00:55:26.280 and questions the potential defense a defense of the confederates is harboring in their heart

00:55:37.220 a malice and hatred towards black people right right and but but that one guys in our camp

00:55:45.340 have done right and written books about and and i understand that there is a difference i've already

00:55:52.160 i've said it multiple times in our episodes over the past few weeks and months and i'll say it

00:55:56.760 again um i do understand i think there is one clear substantial difference between the confederates

00:56:03.660 and the issue of slavery versus um nazi germany and the third reich and what was going on with

00:56:11.800 the jews i think the biggest difference between the confederates and the nazis is that um many

00:56:19.060 of the confederates really were by their own words um orthodox not like a neo-pagan syncretism kind

00:56:28.460 of but like orthodox reformed christian men many of them were pastors um they were good men good

00:56:38.920 men um and i and and i don't believe that that argument can be made at least certainly not a

00:56:45.440 one-to-one ratio i'm not saying that no no nazi um could have been a christian but but in terms of

00:56:51.600 the degree the amount of um how many people in the south um who fought on the confederate side

00:56:59.080 really love the lord jesus christ and and will be in heaven worshiping forever with us these are

00:57:04.500 you know fathers and brothers in christ um and so that's one really big difference but again the

00:57:09.600 point still stands because even with that difference so you can say you can give that

00:57:13.560 disclaimer say yeah but the confederates were uh largely christian men and um and i don't believe

00:57:18.880 that the nazis were um and so that's why it's okay to question the mainline history of the civil war

00:57:24.540 because it's literally all the same talking points it's like well actually the villain was

00:57:28.600 uh the the real chief villain was abraham lincoln actually the real chief villain was

00:57:33.260 Winston Churchill. And actually the Confederates were good. Actually the Nazis, like the parallels

00:57:37.440 are striking. Now I would agree with that disclaimer, say, but it's, it's, this is apples

00:57:43.580 and oranges. It's not, it's not, it's not a one-to-one ratio because of the Christian piece,

00:57:48.760 many good Christian men who were Confederates. And, and I, I don't believe that it was the same

00:57:54.820 with the nazis however in terms of an individual person asking questions and even coming to because

00:58:03.940 people like oh he's just asking questions all right so i'll go further asking questions and

00:58:08.140 even coming to some specific conclusions about what happened in the war even with both sides

00:58:15.820 knowing that there were that there's a strong christian heritage with the confederates that's

00:58:22.040 not present with the nazis still to ask questions about both wars civil war and world war ii and to

00:58:28.280 come to certain conclusions that go against the mainline consensus with both of these things

00:58:32.680 it's still in either case it does not require hatred of blacks or hatred of jews it just says

00:58:39.860 i think we got this wrong so you can still say um on this side over here you can still say yeah

00:58:44.960 hitler was a bad guy he needed to be fought and and you can still disagree with the strategy

00:58:50.160 the timing you could say well he was bad but maybe we should have teamed up with him against

00:58:55.020 uh against the soviets first and then tried to take out you know hitler you know or or maybe he

00:59:01.200 i think that uh hitler called for peace three different times and churchill refused to do it

00:59:06.280 because he was war hungry and because he went into debt and you know and then all of a sudden

00:59:11.120 magically his debts were paid and maybe he was bought by somebody behind the scenes you know

00:59:14.740 who was on the Bolshevik side.

00:59:16.420 You can do all of that

00:59:18.600 and never have any hatred in your heart for Jews.

00:59:22.640 Tucker Carlson did that for two and a half hours

00:59:25.740 in front of all of our faces.

00:59:27.980 That would be my question.

00:59:29.260 If Tucker Carlson comes and he confesses faith

00:59:31.980 in the Lord Jesus Christ and the triune God,

00:59:35.280 will you allow Tucker Carlson to be a member in your church?

00:59:39.360 Because I guarantee you,

00:59:40.500 Tucker Carlson will not be signing the Antioch Declaration.

00:59:43.680 Even Derek Cooper is, I believe, in good faith, is a Christian.

00:59:47.040 He claims the name of Christ, all of his public conduct, I can see.

00:59:50.500 Would he be accepted at your church, pastor, listening?

00:59:53.460 Right.

00:59:54.400 Right.

00:59:55.160 So I think that kind of brings us to, you know, we're going to do a couple more here in the statement,

00:59:59.840 but that kind of brings us to a little bit of, you know, to be as charitable as possible.

01:00:06.500 Joel, I think, you know, if I'm imagining, you know, if Doug was listening to this, or if he

01:00:12.180 was sitting right next to me, I want to be fair to him. I think he would say, he's like, all right,

01:00:16.720 Joel, I've been listening to you guys for the last 20 minutes. Will you give me a second to say

01:00:21.900 something? And I'd be like, sure, Doug. You know, say, well, then this, if this is how you feel,

01:00:27.240 and this is what you believe, and blah, blah, blah, then it wasn't about you. The statement

01:00:31.020 it wasn't about you joel i think that would be his defense it wasn't it wasn't about you

01:00:34.880 and my counter my response to that would be um then you shouldn't have released it

01:00:44.120 in the middle of a very public conflict that's surrounding me right on this topic yeah on this

01:00:52.040 topic and not even because i wouldn't be able to just i believe it or not people a lot of people

01:00:57.780 And this is very kind of you guys.

01:00:59.860 So all of you guys watching,

01:01:01.220 you have my immense thanks and gratitude.

01:01:05.260 A lot of you have reached out to me,

01:01:06.720 emails and text messages and DMs on X

01:01:10.100 and said, we're praying for you.

01:01:11.260 And like, man, I can't imagine what you're going through.

01:01:13.100 And just so that you can all have a very peaceful

01:01:17.860 and pleasant Thanksgiving tomorrow and be relieved.

01:01:21.860 You could ask Michael and Wes,

01:01:23.460 you can ask Nathan, you ask my wife.

01:01:25.020 I'm doing just fine.

01:01:26.020 you know people like how are you holding up man you must be i'm like just another day like i mean

01:01:31.760 right now that like i have conflicts i have conflicts within conflicts controversies with

01:01:36.960 it it's like so i have like my month-long controversy on this topic and then today's

01:01:42.540 controversy was blowing up on twitter because um i said uh i made a very arrogant statement

01:01:48.300 in 45 seconds where i said i'm stupid i said like three different things uh literally 0.81

01:01:55.640 dissing myself, making fun of myself, but it was still very, very arrogant. The goal was not to 0.94

01:02:01.540 bolster Joel. The goal was to absolutely insult the evangelical church. That was my goal. And if

01:02:07.780 you take offense at that, good. I'm glad I offended you. Because that was my goal. A lot of times

01:02:13.580 people are like, well, when you say it like that, it offends me. I'm like, good. Then I said it

01:02:17.900 clearly. I'm glad to hear that. Message received. Good. Thank you for that encouragement. I'll

01:02:22.800 continue to say things clearly. So all that being said, the point is I'm doing just fine, praise

01:02:27.060 God. And so I have not been overly emotional or overly hurt or overly throughout this. And so

01:02:34.780 because of that, I can distinguish between these things and say, okay, it really is possible that

01:02:41.320 you're releasing something, a declaration on this particular topic, while there's this particular

01:02:46.260 conflict between me and Tobias that's going on, but the declaration doesn't actually have me in

01:02:50.860 mind okay like i can do that um you still shouldn't have done it right because you don't need

01:02:58.860 to just persuade joel wevin right i can actually be persuaded i happen to be a pretty reasonable man

01:03:04.560 um but but a lot of people are not going to be persuaded like you're watching on x i'm watching

01:03:11.860 on x uh most people are calling bs right now right the the majority of people are saying i don't buy

01:03:18.400 it so i actually could buy it i'm actually willing to say okay you know what that is it is possible

01:03:23.840 that you had this declaration in the works for a while because you have been talking about this for

01:03:27.620 a while i mean doug's written at least 457 blogs on neo-nazis in the last nine months so i know

01:03:32.660 that he's been thinking about it for a while um and so i i actually i i could buy that um but the

01:03:39.340 timing is just still not great for you you you should not have released the declaration until

01:03:44.860 things with me and tobias were solved and and and and here's the deal like i understand like

01:03:50.880 you know the sit down and shut up and wait that james white said um but i i'm not a tech guy so

01:03:57.960 you guys correct me if i'm wrong but does it take a month to charge a laptop uh negative yeah like

01:04:05.240 how long is tobias going to be charging that laptop you know what i mean like he lost his

01:04:09.540 laptop charger you know god bless but like it's been four weeks and and i know that something

01:04:14.420 even as we're streaming right now something could drop from what i hear it's going to be any day now

01:04:18.680 um but yeah i i just think you should have settled you know settle one thing at a time um settle the

01:04:26.200 thing with me and tobias iron that out let there be apologies wherever there need to be apologies

01:04:31.840 from either side and then make it very clear unrelated to this right with the larger picture

01:04:38.600 there are some people who are not joel webin who really have gone too far and blah blah blah blah

01:04:43.420 blah and we're releasing the declaration for that you i think you would have gotten a lot more

01:04:47.340 support i still wouldn't have been able to sign it right um but i think a lot of people who would

01:04:54.620 be willing to sign it but are personally not signing it right now because of their devotion

01:04:58.740 to me they they would be on your side right now but you lost them um because of the timing the

01:05:04.940 way that all these things played out. So let's go through at least one more statement, then we're

01:05:12.120 going to go to a commercial break. One more statement. This is another one that falls under

01:05:16.100 the unclear category. So the second one here says, we affirm that the ultimate bond, and that's in

01:05:23.780 italic, so they want to emphasize that. We affirm that the ultimate bond or good for temporal human

01:05:28.920 life is not italics grounded in absolute loyalty to blood and soil family or nation but in the

01:05:37.060 totalizing bond of the kingdom of god through the covenant of grace and they have various scriptures

01:05:42.440 there and so um that is another thing that i would not sign and the reason i wouldn't sign it is not

01:05:48.100 because i disagree with it i agree with it because of the specific disclaimers of ultimate and

01:05:54.600 absolute those two words actually make it in in the technical sense it is technologically um

01:06:01.800 or it is technically theologically true right um and i could sign it here's why i won't um because

01:06:08.580 i know who wrote it yeah uh stephen wolf could agree with that yeah in the technical sense and

01:06:15.320 if stephen wolf wrote that then i could sign it well and if it wasn't in this context right

01:06:19.940 And I could sign it.

01:06:21.060 I can't sign it because Stephen Wolfe didn't write it.

01:06:25.180 Joe Boot did.

01:06:27.780 James White did.

01:06:30.460 In fact, I'll be completely honest,

01:06:32.760 if this declaration was only written by Doug Wilson,

01:06:35.560 I could sign on that particular tenant

01:06:38.140 because Doug Wilson has proven over decades

01:06:41.300 that he can think in categories.

01:06:43.320 Right.

01:06:44.240 But I can't sign it if James White,

01:06:46.500 who I respect and love,

01:06:47.900 and I have no personal animus against him,

01:06:49.520 I'm just trying to be clear for the body of Christ, for the good of the body of Christ.

01:06:52.280 The reason I can't sign it with someone like Joe Boot or James White with their names on it is because James White has just recently made statements against Stephen Wolfe about if you think that—what did he say?

01:07:15.140 i i don't want to misquote him but he recently said on the dividing line um remember the one

01:07:20.980 that like then you're not even a christian and like people clipped it out and went pretty viral

01:07:24.640 for a little bit there he's like if you spend some money it's tough if you was just the one

01:07:28.600 over the summer or more no no no this was like just a week ago a week and a half ago uh he was

01:07:32.820 like if you if you think uh that um oh uh nationality or being a christian is not enough

01:07:39.040 to be close to someone

01:07:42.060 or be like co-religating with someone.

01:07:44.400 Right, or I think it was more along the lines of

01:07:47.520 like if you think that ties,

01:07:50.960 like if bonds between like blood and lineage and land

01:07:59.180 and those kinds of things are more important

01:08:03.000 than the spiritual bond of faith in Christ,

01:08:08.000 then you're not a christian right and and here's the deal it's just um

01:08:13.520 you you're trying to put one over the other when the reality is they're just that they're not in

01:08:21.880 the same category so in the in in the eternal sense and that's why i i do technically agree

01:08:28.500 with that statement because it uses the word ultimate so in the ultimate eternal sense

01:08:33.460 it is our union to christ that is most important of course and so that is true and you can say

01:08:40.900 it is uh that is so true that every christian should be able to affirm that uh so james white

01:08:46.600 saying you're not a christian if you don't believe in the ultimate eternal sense but i i could be

01:08:51.360 remembering incorrectly feel free to in the comments correct me if i'm wrong um but the clip

01:08:56.620 that i'm remembering it wasn't that james white said in the spiritual and eternal sense and or

01:09:02.640 in the ultimate sense. It is our union with Christ through faith that is more important than any

01:09:08.460 union we share temporally here on earth by blood. And if you can't affirm that, then you're not a

01:09:13.960 Christian. If he said it like that, I'd agree. I don't think he said it like that, unless I'm 1.00

01:09:19.180 remembering just terribly wrong. I think, I don't think he said it like that. He said it in such a

01:09:25.140 way that it basically made it sound like I could move to China, and as long as I can find enough

01:09:31.980 chinese christians and i'm a christian then we should for all purposes of civilization and

01:09:38.480 temporal life together and these kind of we should be able to get along just fine and i'm sitting

01:09:43.260 over here and i'm thinking like and you mean but i don't speak mandarin you mean get along not in a

01:09:48.260 general goodwill towards people you mean actual like meaningful collaboration when you say that

01:09:53.900 yeah of course we have what i'm saying is that if you you know hypothetically i'm sure there's not

01:09:58.220 an example that we could point to but let's just say that like a bunch of people gathered together

01:10:02.060 for like a building project and you were building like let's say like a really large tower um if all

01:10:08.020 of a sudden something happened to where that group of people could no longer share a language with

01:10:12.260 each other um then you would have to disperse because even if all those people did believe

01:10:17.260 in the triune god their faith in jesus would not be sufficient for them to build that tower

01:10:23.480 grace doesn't provide language customs habits history that's where we have to be so careful

01:10:30.480 this is what sprawl does grace and nature don't conflate the two don't begin to think well grace

01:10:35.060 overrides supplants and just destroys nature no nature provides these categories that then grace

01:10:40.640 lifts up and perfects this is all through the form of tradition and so well grace christians

01:10:45.660 from india and christians from china yeah but but grace doesn't even give me a language to begin to

01:10:50.220 converse with them it doesn't give us a common life experience it doesn't give us anything we

01:10:53.600 share uh in the temporal sense for food dwelling industry work even in the case of jesus the god

01:11:00.280 man right he still had to learn how to talk yep yep john the baptist was regenerate from the womb

01:11:05.740 leaps in his mother's womb uh still had to learn how to talk right and if we were transported there

01:11:11.680 today we wouldn't actually understand him without some type of supernatural holy spirit gift of

01:11:16.520 tongues a first century passing gift that translated so actually the gospel could go out

01:11:21.380 and nature and different peoples could actually get saved funny right that works right so the

01:11:27.240 ultimate bond um and and i would add even the word eternal the eternal bond um uh is our faith

01:11:36.580 in christ and that that in an eternal and ultimate sense supersedes natural bonds of language and

01:11:43.540 blood and lineage and land yeah of course yeah and does the statement technically say that i got

01:11:50.820 to give them credit on that one thing there's other ones that are bad but on that one it does

01:11:54.960 say that but the problem with the statement isn't that the problem is that when i scroll up i see

01:12:01.260 these names at the top and a couple of those names not so much doug wilson but a couple of those

01:12:07.860 names have just in the last few weeks been recording podcasts that uh that don't just

01:12:15.660 clearly say oh well i just mean in the eternal sense i just mean in the ultimate sense that

01:12:21.120 faith in christ supersedes temporal natural bonds no i see that i see these guys saying if

01:12:28.200 you don't understand that faith in jesus is the most important thing you're not a christian and

01:12:31.860 they're saying it in opposition to guys who aren't saying otherwise they're not they're not

01:12:38.220 arguing they're just saying that hey when it comes to who gets to live in america

01:12:43.020 being a christian is not enough right it's not enough right and so so again categories are so

01:12:51.300 important uh we've got a couple more examples we're not going to go line by line but two more

01:12:56.020 examples that we want to share with you guys that i think are significant and matter uh but before

01:13:00.700 we do let's go to our last commercial break of the day all right that's it guys i tried to warn you

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01:15:18.460 Visit the word soap.com today. Again, that's the word soap.com. Everyone needs soap. So wash

01:15:26.020 yourself in the word. All right. Uh, we had a great super chat. Great question. We were kind

01:15:34.920 of talking during the commercial that we'll want to hit before we get to the last couple pieces of

01:15:38.740 the statement so this is the super chat from oof nate dungan nate dungan nate dungan there we go

01:15:47.100 if anti-oxide refuses unity then where do we go from here especially since the current trajectory

01:15:53.380 with the mudslinging and the ad hominem neo-nazi talk uh someone else asked something similar like

01:15:58.980 how do you yep same same guy what if the anti-oxide doesn't agree to reconciliation with their

01:16:03.880 brothers where we go from there honestly with the trajectory it seems unlikely from their side right

01:16:07.780 now does seem unlikely i i said it earlier i am an optimist i yeah this doesn't really it doesn't

01:16:14.700 really bother me because this is the process of every movement and every organization that there

01:16:18.520 comes a point where the new guard will take over saul had to eventually cede and well god forced

01:16:24.020 it to happen yeah to to david the old wine or the old wineskins will be replaced by the new

01:16:28.920 every single movement we're not saying that these guys are saul no because there's more

01:16:33.460 implications to that because like david was righteous and saul was bad right but saul was

01:16:38.300 perfectly righteous right there would have come a point where saul was 80 90 years old and david

01:16:42.460 had to say no i it's time for me to lead the kingdom like god said so and so uh you can look

01:16:47.560 at it and and many certainly have bought books and been taught a lot by these men i have yeah

01:16:53.080 but there just comes a point in time where you have to say things are moving quick the overton

01:16:57.240 window right now like the overton window may have moved as much in 20 years 20 2000 to 2020

01:17:03.180 as it's moved in the last four things are changing quick and there's going to be a changing of the

01:17:07.680 guard there's going to be new blood there's going to be new wineskins there's going to be

01:17:10.660 new individuals and so um where do we go from here we continue doing the same thing pushing for

01:17:16.140 and boomers really are just even practically they're at that uh at that uh time that age

01:17:21.480 right now where a lot of them are going to be um transitioning out of the workforce and retiring

01:17:25.800 so part of it is like overton window shifting and new discourse and then part of it also is just

01:17:30.820 like age you know like right now you know outside of the church world a bunch of boomers are

01:17:35.380 exiting the workforce and millennials are kind of and gen x you know are kind of coming into moments

01:17:40.420 like we have a millennial vice president right you know and like and we still have a ton of boomers 0.94

01:17:44.860 doing things mitch mcconnell you know um hopefully eventually god in his mercy will kill him but

01:17:51.380 well he's done in january okay i was gonna say and you know but like i mean he's i mean he's

01:17:55.920 holding on to the the lectern yeah like like having a brain aneurysm and like it's like don't

01:18:02.400 you think you should maybe just retire it's like no the turtleneck you know it's like i still had

01:18:07.780 like i still have an opportunity to ruin uh republicans you know and so um but but my point

01:18:12.900 is just like boomers have been reluctant we were talking during the commercial break um part of it

01:18:17.420 to not pick on the boomers too much is it really is a unique generation in the sense that um you

01:18:23.040 you think in biblical times it's like you know there comes a point where dad like dad can't do

01:18:27.580 the work anymore and has to hand the family business the estate over to his son in large

01:18:31.320 part because much of the work is physical it's actually physical work um but but this in some

01:18:37.460 sense boomers are one of the first generations like i understand like we still had the industrial

01:18:42.800 age and the but but one of the first uh generations where a lot of work uh that boomers are doing is

01:18:49.980 not manual labor yeah right um so it doesn't um so you can have a hip replacement and it doesn't

01:18:57.160 force you to retire you know and and so there are to not just like make it a character issue 0.86

01:19:03.140 or moral issue with with boomers but even just looking at the big picture and the uniqueness of 0.66

01:19:09.180 this particular period of history and technological innovation and then also medical advancements and

01:19:14.340 longevity of life and all these for all these reasons boomers have been able to hold on much

01:19:20.880 longer than other generations of people other generations of people would hand things over to

01:19:27.300 their sons to the next generation much sooner long before they died and they'd still be alive for 10

01:19:33.540 20 years 30 years even but the son would be in charge and they would be giving guidance and 0.85

01:19:40.180 direction but the son would be appointed as uh the guy who's in charge whereas boomers because of 0.90

01:19:46.000 just again a long you know uh elongated lifespan and and technological advances where you can do

01:19:52.580 your work on a laptop instead of a mine or a field um boomers really are basically allowed to uh to 0.82

01:20:00.360 be um still managing their hedge fund on their deathbed until they breathe their last breath 0.66

01:20:05.980 and a few of them are going to do it yeah you know and and it's like well or uh warren buffett

01:20:12.780 warren buffett yeah yep yep so anyway so it's just it's just a unique situation but i'm i'm with you

01:20:18.600 i don't think that everything has to be it doesn't have to be like a big blow-up uh war it doesn't

01:20:25.240 have to we don't always have to impute nefarious motives um i think some of this is just it's the

01:20:30.780 groaning pains of uh of transition it's the groaning pains of transition and that doesn't

01:20:36.520 mean that the older guard um never offered anything they offered a ton and the younger

01:20:42.120 guys are only where we are because of them number two it also doesn't mean that they have nothing

01:20:46.080 else to offer i'm not making that argument either but it does mean that i think we're eventually

01:20:50.560 we're now at the point though to where um the young guys don't need to say shut up boomer 0.89

01:20:55.700 but the boomers also don't need to say shut up whippersnapper sit down and shut up sit down and

01:21:00.520 shut up to the to the young guys either because um i think some of these older men still have

01:21:06.120 something to offer um but some of the younger guys have proven that they have something too

01:21:10.820 um you know you the little quips uh well steven wolf in the beginning of his book says he even

01:21:17.980 admits that he's not a theologian like all you're doing you you might as well just like when you

01:21:22.820 publicly say that on twitter you might as well just post your iq and we already know that it's

01:21:27.380 below 90 um when when steven wolf admits to not being a theologian he means he does not have a

01:21:33.780 phd in theology right um and little quips like that he has a phd in political philosophy little

01:21:40.160 quips like that um just aren't going to work anymore right too too many people there's just

01:21:46.740 there's too many young people who are old enough and well read enough at this point in their lives

01:21:51.840 to where you have to have a real substantive argument.

01:21:57.360 And so my point is in bringing up Stephen Wolf

01:21:59.740 is to say, I think Doug Wilson

01:22:01.480 still has a lot to contribute.

01:22:05.160 But Stephen Wolf does too.

01:22:07.340 And both of those voices are now in the public space.

01:22:11.120 And neither voice can really say to the other,

01:22:14.640 shut up and sit down.

01:22:17.480 Stephen Wolf is not going away. 0.99

01:22:19.300 He changed the game.

01:22:20.240 yep he changed the game and he changed the game by by getting us back from the other guys who

01:22:25.760 actually changed the game to what everybody always thought right and uh and if you if you

01:22:32.960 didn't want his voice out there then you shouldn't have published his book you know but the moment

01:22:38.960 the moment that you did that you kind of put in some sense you put the death now in in the

01:22:44.360 the coffin of theonomy you know and you you'll see complaining to like oh my goodness christian

01:22:50.120 nationalists this is how they fight they couldn't run a lemonade stand no this is the process that

01:22:54.280 happens like new blood coming in like this is none of this proves i mean like the secretary

01:22:59.580 of defense very likely yeah i mean even uh jd vance probably uh the speaker of the house mike

01:23:06.260 johnson don't don't love the israel thing but uh but they identify as christian nationalists we're

01:23:11.260 a nation we should be christian we're people in place like christian nationalism is not this

01:23:15.480 little thing that has just started fracturing in the last couple weeks into oblivion no in a matter

01:23:19.040 of four years three years or so significant cultural movement within a broader and constant

01:23:25.160 pushback so it's not like oh look you're uh christian nationalists are in the midst of

01:23:29.840 controversy and that just proves that you guys are a joke you're not ready to lead anything

01:23:33.640 i'm like wait wait you you think christian nationalists are just now in controversy right

01:23:39.700 there has been controversy from the the second that that phrase was was ever uttered it seems

01:23:46.760 to have been born from january 6th like i was going back on the internet yeah and that's where

01:23:51.040 really it hit mainstream so from the beginning it was tied to january 6th but then the moment

01:23:55.540 that it was mentioned um from like mainlined within the reformed world with christian reformed

01:24:02.020 pastors it like and i'm thinking at that point it was more like 2022 it was immediately met with

01:24:08.560 the the strongest opposition you can imagine i mean some of these guys we forget because it's

01:24:14.520 been a couple years but nathaniel jolly anybody yeah nobody remember his name but you know but

01:24:21.640 like um g the g3 wars of 2022 um uh macarthur weighed in a little bit you know like at all

01:24:30.300 you know macarthur does part of the reason he's lasted as long as he has is because he's actually

01:24:35.140 does a pretty good job staying out of some of these things right you know but even he kind of

01:24:40.020 you know said a little piece about christian nationalism on a panel one time that video

01:24:43.500 circulated where he you know he didn't like it um so my point is uh it's not like this is not new

01:24:49.300 oh christian nationalists are in the midst of conflict and that just proves that they're

01:24:53.300 incapable of leading anything christian nationalists within the reformed world have been in

01:24:57.660 conflict from the the first time that anyone in the reformed world uh admitted to being a christian

01:25:03.820 nationalists it's been constant conflict and um and there's been scandals 2022 around thanksgiving

01:25:11.060 thomas like there's all these moments it's over steven wolf you know white evangelicals are the

01:25:15.540 lone bulwark it's a voting bloc against degeneracy oh my goodness look at it it's mask off this is

01:25:20.300 out of the other but we're still here and by god's grace the election went great there's about to be

01:25:24.680 a whole flux all across the united states like at the state house representative level good christian

01:25:29.820 nationalist men godly men reformed men they're going to come in and take office here in january

01:25:34.140 so it's like it's over they couldn't manage a lemonade stand who are you talking about my

01:25:38.400 brother in christ come get your brain check we are winning by god's grace i would say pushing

01:25:42.840 the ball up the field and this is just part of the process some like this is friend enemy you

01:25:47.120 know drawing some distinctions making some clear boundaries all part of the game yeah as gladiator

01:25:53.420 would say that's politics that's bad my friend is politics gladi i would say this about gladiator

01:25:58.080 quick, quick little glad, gladiator, a movie review. Um, it was, it was, I think it was

01:26:03.160 really good. Um, it was a bummer in the sense that, you know, if you look at like, you know,

01:26:07.240 well done movie, but if you look at like kind of the, the theme and, and some of the, the virtues

01:26:12.640 in it is, you know, not disappointing cause it's exactly what you would expect, you know, because

01:26:17.680 it's, it's America and we all, you know, modern Americans suck, but it was, uh, basically the

01:26:23.380 whole idea was like you know uh we're restoring rome to a propositional nation right our sacred 0.95

01:26:28.640 democracy but for rome but for rome exactly so it's like our sacred republic we're gonna get 1.00

01:26:33.180 rid of you know everything that really makes rome rome and its history and its heritage and all 0.98

01:26:38.620 these kinds of things and strength and leadership and we're going to return it you know to our

01:26:42.720 sacred democracy and a propositional nation not just democracy you know power to the people but

01:26:47.440 beyond that, uh, the big thing, the big idea of Rome is, uh, it's, um, it's not good. Rome is not

01:26:53.660 good unless anybody anywhere at any time can be a Roman, you know, like that's, I mean, that's what 1.00

01:27:00.040 it was. It's just, it's a set of propositions. It's a set of ideals and, um, and we're going to 1.00

01:27:05.480 get Rome back to being good, AKA, uh, anybody can be a Roman at any time. And so that was kind of

01:27:11.120 like the the big you know hurrah moment of the movie but uh really well done it's certainly

01:27:17.400 enjoyable entertaining and and even on that point even though it was propositional nationhood for

01:27:22.740 the win at the end of the day um even that i didn't mind so much because um the guy pushing

01:27:30.100 propositional nationhood and our sacred democracy and anybody can be a roman anywhere at any time

01:27:34.760 um the guy who's able to win that battle for rome is the guy who um who has his lineage

01:27:43.000 as a roman the guy who is often a distant place but turns out actually was a native-born roman

01:27:49.340 who's the son of so-and-so who's the son of so-and-so with a lineage and a bloodline

01:27:54.380 through royalty in rome with good men throughout the history who loves the heritage and this kind

01:28:00.600 and wants to get back to the vision of his fathers.

01:28:03.740 And the guy who believes that it's more about strength

01:28:07.740 and these kinds of things

01:28:09.600 and not propositional nationhood,

01:28:12.180 that guy turns out he's the foreigner.

01:28:16.140 He's the guy who his nation, 0.99

01:28:18.220 he's native born somewhere else, not with Rome,

01:28:20.700 was conquered by Rome and has resented it ever since.

01:28:24.060 And his goal, his idea of revenge

01:28:28.840 is that he's going to try to ruin Rome by making it bad,

01:28:34.380 making it all about power instead of a republic.

01:28:36.900 And so anyways, so it's just funny

01:28:39.000 that like Hollywood couldn't help itself

01:28:40.800 in typical American fashion,

01:28:42.940 but to make Gladiator about propositional nationhood,

01:28:47.460 but even in accomplishing their aim

01:28:49.440 of making the propositional nationhood win the day,

01:28:53.060 they had to do it through a native born guy

01:28:55.800 with lineage and ancestry and fatherhood.

01:29:00.000 So pretty funny.

01:29:01.080 Okay, next thing.

01:29:02.340 All right, so this one,

01:29:03.580 we might not get past this one today.

01:29:05.360 I don't know.

01:29:05.660 This is kind of the doozy.

01:29:06.840 So be optimistic.

01:29:08.460 We can do it.

01:29:10.420 This now falls into categories that we disagree with.

01:29:14.920 So this says, we deny.

01:29:17.940 So this is now denial on the part of the Antioch Declaration.

01:29:20.640 We deny that Jews are in any way, any way, in any way, uniquely malevolent or sinful,

01:29:30.260 that Judaism in its multifarious expressions is objectively more dangerous than other false 0.84

01:29:36.780 religions, or that it represents an exceptional threat to Christianity and Christian peoples. 1.00

01:29:42.520 By nature, the Jews are objects of wrath, just like the rest of us, fair enough, which 0.97

01:29:47.800 is condemnation enough and are equally recipients of god's grace i think they would i think they 0.98

01:29:54.780 would probably say can potentially be recipients of god's grace by being saved but anyway they

01:30:00.500 don't say that what do you guys think also i see in the chat there tobias just released his response

01:30:05.280 so i'm sure that'll be fun i'll check it out i heard something pretty funny this week he said

01:30:09.960 would we apply this same same standard to cannibal tribes who are invading christian

01:30:16.240 civilizations and trying to eat their children and women right nope no yeah so there were multiple

01:30:22.680 different indigenous people who had multiple different religions they didn't all worship the 0.98

01:30:27.160 same god so that and they were all false religions they weren't the true religion the christian 0.97

01:30:30.520 religion so you have multiple false religions held and practiced by multiple indigenous peoples here

01:30:36.080 in the americas when the founders and pilgrims and all these different people arrived some of those 0.97

01:30:43.000 indian tribes those indigenous peoples were worse than others and and and some of their 0.96

01:30:50.860 false religions were worse than others the karankawa indians um they were cannibals 0.99

01:30:57.680 there were other indians that were not right right some of uh they all worshiped false gods 1.00

01:31:03.980 some of their false gods demanded human sacrifice others did not i mean to say that you know judy 0.98

01:31:12.980 Judaism isn't any worse than the 14 people who worship Zod, the alien god. 0.93

01:31:21.460 I mean, there are a million different cults.

01:31:23.920 Yep.

01:31:24.220 Right.

01:31:24.700 Are we going to say that they're all equal?

01:31:27.000 Like, I would say, I feel perfectly comfortable saying,

01:31:31.960 Sinatology has had terrible effects, but is not nearly as dangerous or pernicious

01:31:38.920 I believe it. 1.00

01:31:40.860 As Islam. 0.99

01:31:42.720 Right. 0.98

01:31:42.980 Islam is responsible for the deaths of Christians in the thousands, if not millions, for centuries, over millennia, 1,300 years, or whatever it is. 0.99

01:31:57.220 Whereas Sinatology is a false religion that will send you to hell, absolutely, but it has like a weed sprung up and faded in the macro... 0.99

01:32:10.180 if you look at human history as a whole virtually overnight and all throughout human history there

01:32:15.360 there have been examples of that there have been false religions uh that have staying power and

01:32:21.600 then there are false you know cults and religions that are um not timeless but timely that are just

01:32:30.200 products of their time there's one cult leader that arises that starts some rebellion somewhere

01:32:35.900 and he does a lot of damage um but in the big scope of things he does a lot of damage for about

01:32:42.460 15 minutes and then it's done uh but the reality is that both islam and judaism have been around

01:32:49.480 for a very long time and have done a lot of damage for a really long time um in a way that uh 0.62

01:32:56.060 mormonism has not right sinatology has not jehovah's witnesses have not those are false

01:33:02.320 So all false religions, aside from the one true religion, the Christian religion, they're all equal, kind of goes back to the same principles, categories of that earlier statement that we just handled. 0.54

01:33:12.720 If we're talking about the ultimate eternal consequences of a person's soul, then every false religion is equal in the sense that every single one of them will send you to hell.

01:33:23.460 but they are not all equal in a temporal sense in their outward effects not not the spiritual 0.95

01:33:31.920 eternal side but the physical temporal side of their effects on human civilization and so when

01:33:39.860 i think of major world religions that have had the worst effects on christians particularly and human

01:33:49.040 human beings, human civilization on the whole for very long periods of time, not just for 80 years

01:33:56.960 or 120 years, but for a very long time, I think of really kind of boils down to four. You got

01:34:04.920 Hinduism and Buddhism and Islam and Judaism. And I would say as bad as Hinduism and Buddhism are, 1.00

01:34:12.400 I would say that the two worst, in my opinion, in terms of their temporal outward effects, 1.00

01:34:17.200 physical effects on humanity and on christians uh would be islam and judaism and then i would 0.99

01:34:23.060 bifurcate those two if you said well which one's worse between the two i don't know if i would give 0.53

01:34:28.100 a definitive answer but what i would say is that both have been terrible and they've been terrible 0.94

01:34:32.640 in two distinct but specific ways um islam historically has been um has had a terrible 0.85

01:34:40.760 overt effect on christians and judaism has had a terrible subvert subversive effect on christians 0.85

01:34:51.320 judaism um by nature in its ideology and its religion is i believe parasitical and yes i'm 0.83

01:35:00.980 using the word parasitical i got in trouble because that's something that the church member

01:35:04.880 member in our church used on the zoom call and everybody's talking about on x and i don't care

01:35:08.800 I just, you get what you get with Joel Webman.

01:35:12.340 So, yes, parasitical.

01:35:14.300 I'm not calling each and every Jew parasitical.

01:35:17.680 I'm not saying that. 0.98

01:35:19.120 I'm saying Judaism, as an ideology and as a religion, I do believe is parasitical. 0.99

01:35:24.780 That what it has done historically, throughout the ages, is typically go into other countries, 0.97

01:35:31.900 other peoples with other religions and kind of cozy up but not really for their benefit

01:35:40.900 not a mutually beneficial relationship but where they ultimately get far more out of the deal

01:35:46.160 than the christian nation does judaism has thrived on christendom um if if christendom 0.89

01:35:54.900 falls and the west falls and islam wins the day muslims will not play nice with jews 0.99

01:36:01.420 they will be screwed jews need christians christians do not need jews 1.00

01:36:09.660 it is not a mutually beneficial relationship that doesn't mean that we therefore hate jews 0.99

01:36:16.160 i love jews and i wish them a very pleasant conversion to christianity i love the best

01:36:22.520 thing for you to bow the knee to christ amen that's what love is yeah and if you don't bow

01:36:27.800 the need to christ even if you don't um i still don't wish your physical harm i do wish however

01:36:34.220 if you are a citizen of israel and and you refuse to convert to christianity 0.76

01:36:40.420 um you're a jewish citizen israeli citizen um i do wish for you not to serve in public office 0.63

01:36:49.500 in my nation right you can come here if you're going to play nice like any other immigrant and

01:36:55.900 contribute and um but but no you do not get to uh pull levers of power in my nation's government 1.00

01:37:03.920 with dual citizenship and that goes for any nation for that matter right right i don't want anybody

01:37:09.060 to be like i mean think about that like would we ever do i'm sure we have a few memit oz the who

01:37:15.220 trump just appointed or he was running for senate i just heard that blew my mind blew my mind he was

01:37:20.680 turkish intelligence like the turkish cia that's crazy and now he's running for he was running for

01:37:26.540 senate in pennsylvania yeah so like but but think about that think if we had like dozens of uh of

01:37:33.460 people who were dual citizens of the united states and they lived here and china and they were holding

01:37:40.600 seats in congress right like we would look at that and your average american would be like

01:37:47.040 we have been we're conquered nation that's right we've been conquered some like somewhere along

01:37:53.560 the line our leaders sold us out our leaders are in bed with china like uh we're we're in trouble 0.97

01:37:59.720 we're this this is crazy this is a travesty we'd be sounding alarms and ringing bells and like 0.97

01:38:03.860 um but that's been going on forever with israel yeah and and because it's and here's the irony 0.92

01:38:11.420 it's it's only because america has been historically so deeply christian that that a lot of americans

01:38:18.940 particularly on the right the more conservative christian ones are so comfortable with it like

01:38:24.640 yeah but those are god's people and i just want to say no they're not right you are christian right

01:38:31.580 you are god's people and uh that doesn't mean we wish any ill will or or harm uh physical harm on

01:38:38.680 on israel they're still our neighbors in the sense that so is ukraine ukraine is our neighbors um and 0.68

01:38:44.760 they don't get they shouldn't get any money and israel is our neighbors and it like so you there's 0.88

01:38:49.940 my point is there's again like what we were saying earlier there's a massive gaping chasm between um 0.98

01:38:56.500 i hate these people i want them uh to all uh perish and be destroyed right versus um i don't

01:39:06.620 hate these people at all uh but but i um i i don't i don't want to give them any money i don't want 0.98

01:39:14.860 them serving a public office in my country um if if they're involved in unethical vocations like

01:39:22.240 the porn industry then um then i would like to revoke their their status a green card or whatever

01:39:27.700 they have to where they're not allowed to to be here right and um and also then again that's just 0.85

01:39:34.200 the people and then the ideology that one's real easy uh judaism not jews but judaism to be able

01:39:40.060 to recognize and say i mean historically i can point to this and this and this and this and this

01:39:43.740 and this and all these examples of how it's been terrible for christendom and a lot of times it's

01:39:48.980 funny a lot of the christian nations that did welcome jews in what would happen not always but

01:39:54.240 there are multiple cases of this what would happen is that some not all but some of the jews would

01:39:59.740 end up converting to christianity praise god and it'd be a genuine conversion they would convert

01:40:03.820 and they would then befriend Christians

01:40:06.460 and be in their churches. 0.84

01:40:08.300 And then those Jews would teach the Christians 0.99

01:40:11.440 how to read the Hebrew 0.99

01:40:14.460 so that they could better understand

01:40:16.500 the Old Testament and the Pentateuch,

01:40:18.380 the Torah and these kinds of things. 0.93

01:40:19.700 And because the Christians would ask, 0.64

01:40:20.960 like, now that you're a Christian,

01:40:22.060 you speak Hebrew,

01:40:22.740 can you help us with, you know,

01:40:23.820 going back to original texts

01:40:25.060 and these kinds of things?

01:40:25.860 So we're doing a work of theology on this

01:40:27.720 and that and the other.

01:40:28.660 And so they would do that.

01:40:29.920 But then they would also,

01:40:31.840 not always, but in some cases,

01:40:33.300 these now converted jews who are christians would also say oh and by the way now that we've taught

01:40:37.760 you how to read hebrew you should probably be aware of this you should read our talmud

01:40:41.340 and know what's in it since you welcomed all of us into your country you probably should know what

01:40:46.540 we think about you and say about you and think about jesus and then the christians would read 0.83

01:40:51.660 the talmud and then they would kick the jews out of their country like when you look at like how 0.81

01:40:56.840 did jews get kicked out of the country well some jews convert because god is merciful and some jews 0.79

01:41:01.340 get saved and love jesus they would then teach the christians what jews actually think and then 0.52

01:41:06.560 the christians would say wait jews think that you're you're not our allies you're not christian

01:41:11.660 adjacent right you're you're enemies of christ that's the thing about this statement is taken

01:41:16.980 at face value a lot of the reformers could not have agreed with this so john calvin no way sir

01:41:22.680 samuel rutherford we like they're they're farther than we are we look moderate compared to them on

01:41:29.060 stances on public office how big of libs we are compared to and i'm not just talking martin luther

01:41:34.980 on the jews and their lies right that's that's an isolated example john calvin like the things

01:41:39.540 he said like we that statement written by obstinately claiming to be reformed men would

01:41:45.380 cut off and disqualify a number of right the greatest reformed thinkers that we've had in

01:41:52.260 our history right this guy real quick daniel hughes is asking is isker andrew isker theonomist

01:41:56.580 or a two kingdoms guy, me and Iskra are pretty much

01:41:58.620 in the same boat. We're doing the splits right 0.82

01:42:00.640 now, and we still like

01:42:02.680 Rush Duny, we like

01:42:04.740 Ponson, we like Rush Duny more,

01:42:06.420 but we're also seeing

01:42:07.740 within the historic

01:42:10.780 reform tradition, we are seeing that

01:42:12.380 if we want to go

01:42:14.660 with the historic position of our fathers

01:42:16.540 and the reformers,

01:42:18.820 it is a classical two kingdom

01:42:20.500 position. Stephen Wolfe

01:42:22.060 has successfully won that

01:42:24.680 argument. He's, I think, just

01:42:26.380 that that was the position that that was oh yeah of calvin and all the reformers and so uh isker

01:42:31.100 is kind of similar to me is like we're both kind of um we don't we like we're still comfortable

01:42:35.500 you know maybe like the general equity you know but um but we we are starting to say like yeah but

01:42:41.420 a lot of the modern you know capital t theonomist today we we would um we would have a lot more

01:42:47.580 space for natural law than they would allow for we would you know so and i just i again i those

01:42:52.300 don't have to be enemies they don't have to be really don't there are contradictions there so

01:42:56.360 there is they are different we're not this it's not the same group at first i was like oh it's

01:43:00.780 all the same group christian nationalists the honor and i realized now i was wrong about that

01:43:04.440 and i'll admit that i was wrong um i think it could still be the same group in a big tent sense

01:43:09.120 and there's no reason to be at each other's throats but they are still um uh distinct subsets

01:43:14.720 underneath the big the big tent uh the christian nationalists you know protestant magisterial

01:43:20.320 classic two kingdom guys steven wolf uh time and klein uh those guys are different than uh the

01:43:26.120 theonomist uh but i'm with you michael um they are absolutely different um but they are not so

01:43:31.640 different that we have to be enemies right i i definitely don't think that uh one other thing i

01:43:36.780 was going to say when you were talking about calvin calvin and bootzer and um we would have

01:43:42.060 to excommunicate oh and you said and not just yeah you know i was just gonna make another joke

01:43:45.900 you said and i'm not just talking about luther you know with you know at the end of his life

01:43:49.000 his book, The Jews and Their Lies. I saw a meme today that I thought was hilarious, which of

01:43:54.120 course means I should probably be excommunicated. I did laugh at this meme, and I confessed before

01:43:58.440 God and men. I saw a meme, and I laughed at it, and I will not apologize, because it was just,

01:44:04.500 it was funny. But it was the, who's the guy? Anakin and Padme. Yeah, Anakin and Padme.

01:44:12.500 um and uh and they're sitting in the grass you know and and so uh uh he says um he says my

01:44:19.200 favorite book uh that i've ever read is written by martin luther and uh and it shows her smiling

01:44:24.340 and she says um uh you mean his commentary on galatians right you know and he looks like

01:44:30.040 the jews and their lives um okay so let's uh let's get into the last statement see if we can

01:44:38.620 do the last statement i think we handled that like uh the idea and it's not just to pick on

01:44:42.300 we have handled this topic too before we have yeah but it's not just to pick on judaism so

01:44:47.160 we're not even saying that judaism is the absolute worst because i would i would pair it up there 1.00

01:44:51.060 with islam and i would say during different historical periods islam was way worse right 0.96

01:44:55.840 and it's outward temporal effects than judaism and then there have been other periods where like 0.63

01:45:00.360 right now islam is rough but if we're talking that's another thing that brings into question

01:45:05.140 worse for who right and worse for who when islam self-contained in the middle east exactly so so 0.91

01:45:10.760 worse for christians in the middle east islam worse than judaism you betcha well and i the 0.92

01:45:15.380 worst for us as americans no i think judaism poses a bigger threat for us to be fair to the statement 0.97

01:45:20.440 it says the threat to christianity and christian peoples okay but the point but the point is what

01:45:25.920 what they're saying in that this is the this is what i was going to say is my point is not even

01:45:29.880 to say judaism is uh the absolute worst and always has been my point is um for their statement to be

01:45:35.420 correct they're not just saying judaism isn't the worst because if they said uh we we affirm that

01:45:40.940 or we deny that judaism has always been right um uh the most harmful false religion for christians

01:45:49.320 throughout uh in every place and every time then i'd be like yeah you know what that's probably

01:45:54.160 true i could get behind that yeah but that's not what the statement says their statement

01:45:57.620 at face value if you read it put it back on the screen one more time nathan so as i'm talking

01:46:01.940 those who are watching any way uniquely malevolent right so it says that jews are in any way uniquely

01:46:07.220 malevolent or sinful and not just jews but judaism as an ideology religion in its multifarious

01:46:13.420 expressions is objectively more dangerous than other false religions or that it represents an 0.98

01:46:19.440 exceptional threat to christianity and christian peoples um i i just i'm like you uh you gotta

01:46:27.300 prove that brothers you you're gonna have to historically prove that to me if this statement

01:46:32.880 would were to last that would hold in perpetuity for all of the church age right right because this

01:46:37.000 is saying for christians and this would mean christians in any place yep yep right because i

01:46:41.640 because i would i would we just talked about it but i would say that islam so using another false 0.85

01:46:46.680 religion uh islam poses an existential threat for some christians in some places much more than it

01:46:53.960 us as christians in this place in these united states um but but that's just but they but i mean 0.98

01:47:01.600 that is such a bold statement such a foolish statement such a foolish statement because they 0.83

01:47:05.540 didn't even just compare it with one religion or is it they said any any any all like so anyway 0.99

01:47:11.260 every false religion so so you're saying you're saying this is so funny it's ridiculous it just 0.58

01:47:18.640 shows that this is like this is a much more personal emotional statement and it's just not

01:47:22.620 theologically it's not it's not a serious statement and therefore because it's not

01:47:26.160 serious nobody should have signed it but but the point is um you would be saying that um that

01:47:32.340 judaism is not does not pose any more uh temporal threats towards christians in any nation uh more

01:47:43.420 than sinatology there are plenty of nations all over the world where they don't even know what

01:47:49.960 Sinatology is right right like like it and and plenty time periods where it didn't even exist

01:47:57.340 um so so I mean that is just that that's asinine like the the you know like there are a million

01:48:04.420 different false religions and cults um so I mean even being as charitable as possible that let's

01:48:09.460 say they're just they're talking about the major world religions and they're not talking about the

01:48:12.820 14 people who worship zod you know uh the alien god um but still even with the major um false you

01:48:20.760 know world world religions i i don't know if you can make the argument that buddhism

01:48:26.460 um is is equally in a tangible temporal sense harmful towards christianity right as judaism

01:48:35.200 has been i really just i don't think you can make that argument marlene made a great comment she

01:48:39.740 said something to the equivalent if you could scroll up a little bit nate but she said i've

01:48:44.040 heard that every other religion in some way honors jesus christ except perhaps satanism obviously as

01:48:49.900 a prophet of god some type of divine figure except talmudic judaism is this true i don't know of any

01:48:55.420 some of the eastern syncretistic religions like the dao like which is just translate to the way

01:49:00.380 some of those don't really have a place for jesus right they don't have a category malevolence for

01:49:04.600 him there's not like we have the old testament law who's this jesus character don't care for him

01:49:08.320 That's Talmudic Judaism.

01:49:10.040 The law, the Talmud, the commentary.

01:49:11.960 They know who he is.

01:49:12.760 They acknowledge that he was a person.

01:49:13.860 And we hate him.

01:49:14.820 I don't know of any other religion that, at least in some level,

01:49:17.600 I've talked and witnessed to Buddhists or stuff down here in Austin.

01:49:21.260 I'm like, oh, yeah, we love Jesus, too.

01:49:22.780 He was a great teacher. 0.87

01:49:24.240 It only really seems Judaism that truly just has it out and hates him. 0.96

01:49:28.040 Yeah, Judaism is absolutely unique in its hatred towards the person of Jesus. 0.91

01:49:31.420 To be fair, we would say there could be some French cultic things out there, right? 0.98

01:49:36.140 Sure, yes, yes. 0.69

01:49:36.860 We're not going to make the same mistake that the...

01:49:38.500 Correct.

01:49:38.980 I would say it is unique among the major world religions, 1.00

01:49:42.640 major false world religions. 0.62

01:49:44.060 Anything with more than a million. 0.95

01:49:45.360 Buddhism, Hinduism, and Islam. 0.92

01:49:48.100 Out of those four, Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, and Judaism, 0.66

01:49:52.260 Judaism takes some objectively more hostile view of Christ. 0.84

01:49:57.220 For sure. 0.96

01:49:58.220 In Israel, they hate Christians. 1.00

01:50:00.340 They spit on them. 1.00

01:50:01.280 They despise them.

01:50:02.520 There is conflict.

01:50:04.320 Yes, but to be fair to that,

01:50:06.860 um in palestine hamas right yeah they don't hate christians treating christians well either like if

01:50:14.120 i if i was in israel or nigeria spit on right but there are certain muslim countries if i was there 0.50

01:50:19.580 i'd be killed yep but even though we share that same old testament there's not like well and then

01:50:25.040 they're more tolerant to us it only goes one way there's literally been like uh surveys where like

01:50:29.020 positive view negative view and christians have very positive view of jews and it is not reciprocated

01:50:33.980 whatsoever yeah and that's this i mean honestly that yeah whatever i'm not going to say what i'm

01:50:38.860 about to say open a big game um christians and particularly white christians i'm going to say

01:50:43.760 we're the only one who don't have an in-group preference right right throughout like any

01:50:49.260 peoples on the planet and throughout almost any period of history like we're the uh white white

01:50:55.940 christians um particularly protestants in the west and and especially in america are really like the

01:51:03.160 the only people when you ask like um who do you who do you love the most uh we pick someone other 0.72

01:51:09.380 than ourselves right yeah it's pretty it's pretty crazy it's it's not just great it is suicidal and

01:51:14.820 that's why we're that's why we're a dying breed so um okay last section last section yep all right

01:51:22.440 and this really just is just the question of romans 11 and how you interpret it but it says

01:51:26.460 we affirm that the jews are as all other men alienated from god and in need of the cleansing

01:51:31.220 blood of jesus christ as the people they have nevertheless remained an object of god's providential 0.98

01:51:35.040 care with the puritans of old we affirm that in god's good time multitudes of jews will come to 0.80

01:51:39.740 faith in christ and be added to the true commonwealth of israel inheriting the same blessings 0.92

01:51:43.960 as gentile believers hence the cancerous and counterproductive sin of anti-semitism that has

01:51:49.380 no place among god's people and i would just say that this would not have been able to be signed by 0.87

01:51:55.380 what role did james e jordan have in the crec did he help found it yeah he was he was one of the

01:52:00.980 But he himself would not be able to sign this section.

01:52:05.400 Well, to be fair, pull it up one more time.

01:52:07.140 Unless you're going post-millennial, right?

01:52:10.460 Which I think all of us would agree.

01:52:11.780 Because I do believe that multitudes of Jews will come to faith in Christ

01:52:17.860 and be added to the true commonwealth of Israel, true Israel being the church.

01:52:21.800 But their point is what I was emailing with you earlier,

01:52:26.720 that one of the Puritans' keystones of their post-millennial hope

01:52:31.200 was that the Jews had not yet been brought in in the Romans 11 sense. 0.78

01:52:36.720 And so they still said there's time for the gospel to go through the world

01:52:40.440 and do its salty work.

01:52:42.820 Right.

01:52:43.100 So they only pulled the statement one last time, Nathan.

01:52:45.280 The only thing, because I read this carefully multiple times,

01:52:48.160 I was trying to think charitably, pull it up one more time.

01:52:51.020 The only thing that I actually think would have been wise to leave out

01:52:55.680 is that one phrase that says with the puritans of old so so if you leave that out because when

01:53:01.180 you say with the puritans of old now now everyone's thinking the puritan view right and the puritan

01:53:06.520 view is um the the the uh soft supersessionist reformed covenantal view that the jews uh are

01:53:15.080 still a people and that they eventually they're the natural branches and that that's still out

01:53:20.080 in our future even now 2 000 years later uh from the writing of romans um and and that that's still

01:53:26.320 going to take place and when it does take place it's going to be a catalyst that will then kick

01:53:30.960 start and even further revival among all the gentile nations um so it's it's only that phrase

01:53:36.220 we believe this with the puritans of old uh that forces you to do it pull it back up nit um but uh

01:53:42.840 but if i don't read that then even a jim jordan or andrew risker or joel webin

01:53:48.480 with a partial preterist hermeneutic of a hard supersessionism with romans 11 would actually

01:53:54.240 technically still work so like i'm going to read it now we affirm that the jews are as all other

01:53:59.940 men yep fine with that alienated from god in the need of the cleansing blood of jesus christ yep

01:54:05.220 as a people they have nevertheless remained an object of god's providential care i can say that

01:54:11.500 for uganda i can say that for if you see what like i can see i think america has been an object of

01:54:18.880 god's providential care as a preservation maybe is the word they're looking for providential

01:54:23.160 preservation i think that's what they're saying yeah yeah but but uh they but they've remained

01:54:27.760 even though like what they're on its face though all you have to believe is is this is saying um

01:54:32.920 even without them being um in christ so they're currently not in christ but even without being

01:54:37.900 currently in christ they're still a people and as a people they um are an object of god's

01:54:43.260 providential care and obviously which by definition is all that's all people yeah exactly now that's 0.54

01:54:47.740 when it says now with the puritans of old we affirm if you just got rid of that and you said 0.95

01:54:52.120 we also affirm that in god's good time multitudes of jews will come to faith in christ and be added 0.77

01:54:58.760 to the true commonwealth of israel well as a post-millennial i believe that's true brazil 0.88

01:55:04.300 in china everybody inheriting the same blessings as gentile believers and hence the cancerous and

01:55:09.740 counterproductive sin of anti-semitism has no place among the peoples of god i could actually

01:55:15.960 affirm all that only two changes you have to x out the with the puritans of old phrase and then

01:55:21.020 you also have to x out uh the made-up word of anti-semitism and you need to replace that uh

01:55:27.200 with something that actually means something right because one of the big problems with this

01:55:30.540 statement is uses that word anti-semitism several times and never never defines it so so anti-semitism

01:55:38.460 according to who so so if they said instead of anti-semitism right there they said um and because

01:55:44.400 the jews like all peoples will eventually be saved and blah blah and and be co-heirs of grace and the

01:55:49.460 same blessings as the gentile believers and so because of that and because currently even as

01:55:53.960 non-christian they are our neighbors and image bearers the living god um uh we we uh affirm that 0.74

01:56:01.400 it is uh sinful and wrong to harbor um a uh an unjustified malice and hatred wishing um uh

01:56:13.040 wishing harm on them as an entire people group or something like then i'd be like okay that's good

01:56:18.520 But if you say anti-Semitism, and then even though some of the collaborators on this haven't explicitly said this, a lot of guys in their orbit have come out and verbatim said, Joel's anti-Semitic. 0.98

01:56:33.840 So when you say the Jews are God's people, and therefore we shouldn't be anti-Semitic, and then some of the guys in your camp have already described that I'm an example of what it means to be anti-Semitic.

01:56:47.220 well then there's a lot of guys who are going to be reading this declaration and saying

01:56:51.460 well but i agree with joel's position and i know you think he's anti-semitic so then i guess i

01:56:57.000 can't does that make me exactly so you you would have to uh x out the puritans of old peace so to

01:57:03.280 allow you know like guys who helped co-found your own denomination the crc like jim jordan get rid

01:57:09.000 of the puritans of old peace because jim jordan didn't hold the puritans of old peace um so it

01:57:13.660 allows both for the soft and hard supersessionist uh within the covenantal framework to affirm this

01:57:18.540 and then uh you gotta define anti-semitism and that pops up in that that portion of the statement

01:57:24.680 but all over multiple places wherever anti-semitism is uh you either need to replace it

01:57:30.040 with some actual real biblical words or at the bottom you need to have an asterisk you know and

01:57:35.680 define that term when we say anti-semitism we need something that god actually hates and not

01:57:40.800 something that uh that would actually be a fairly accurate description of john calvin and bootser

01:57:46.560 and all of our reformed fathers so that's i was gonna say jesus is invective against the pharisees

01:57:51.640 teaching as doctrine the commandments of the adl the commandments of modern liberalism teaching

01:57:58.260 those as if they're doctrine that are binding the christian conscience um it's interesting to me

01:58:03.180 because a lot of their statements in this declaration have scripture references they do

01:58:07.300 not have romans 11 in this statement which is interesting right i'm not going to read into it

01:58:12.780 i'm just pointing it out yeah in this point which i actually appreciated because i think there are

01:58:19.660 a lot of guys and they know this there are a lot of guys in the crec who hold jim jordan's position

01:58:25.460 and i don't i don't think doug's trying to ostracize those guys i've talked to doug even

01:58:29.340 on the phone about that um in the past and uh he's like joel that like i don't think you holding

01:58:36.500 that view i want to he told me he's like i want to be abundantly clear you holding that view

01:58:40.300 does not make you in in my mind anti-semitic right you can hold jim jordan's view without

01:58:45.280 hating jews um so that i don't think that they're against that so much um they're just they just

01:58:53.180 it's really more the um the earlier uh tenet that we read yep of um the thing so so if i say uh i

01:59:02.260 think romans 11 has already been fulfilled in our past and we've been experienced as you know

01:59:06.360 christendom is the result of this life of the dead kind of revival among the gentiles 0.92

01:59:09.820 because israel was grafted in and there was a great revival leading up to 80 70 and it already

01:59:14.780 happened um that uh especially doug i can't speak for joe or james as much but especially doug

01:59:22.100 that is not going to make doug call you an anti-semite right it's more so the other statement 0.91

01:59:26.960 um things that i that i would say is like uh no i actually do think judaism is worse

01:59:32.440 in its temporal effects not in its the the eternal result is the same any false religion

01:59:38.420 you go to hell so but in terms of earthly temporal tangible effects there are some false religions

01:59:45.740 that have motivated people to uh to conquer enslave entire nations and then there are some

01:59:53.500 false religions uh that haven't right they're not all the same that would be my question for them

01:59:59.620 are you denying that it's a category that there can be the category of a religion in the worldview

02:00:05.580 that is uniquely malicious and pernicious towards christianity right because you and if you don't

02:00:11.200 deny that that's a category then i have a heart at least you we have to be allowed to make the case

02:00:16.840 right this is it right yep you got you have to back that up because that on at face value it

02:00:21.620 doesn't just defend jews from from um anti-semitism or or you know let's pretend it's real like real

02:00:27.800 hatred. And there are some people who really do hate Jews. It doesn't just protect Jews from those 0.84

02:00:33.500 who really hate them. But that point on its face, in order for it to hold up, everyone who signs

02:00:40.080 this declaration effectively has to believe not just that Judaism isn't the worst, but in order 0.66

02:00:46.580 for that logically to work, they have to believe all major world religions have the exact equal

02:00:53.660 negative effects towards christians right and that's a that's a huge ask that is egalitarian

02:01:00.580 impulse to sign this statement you literally you would have to say that um like even aside from

02:01:07.320 judaism hinduism and buddhism have had the exact same negative temporal effects towards christians

02:01:14.120 and the irony is the amount of research you would have to do to even prove that like 0.55

02:01:17.280 i've heard james white say you're forgetting your history islam was much worse exactly right exactly

02:01:23.340 so i mean the category exists well and that's what's so frustrating with all this is it's like 0.71

02:01:28.480 so i and i would say some christians in some places and in some times islam for sure was worse

02:01:36.900 for sure was worse and still to this day with many christians in many places not here in the west 0.90

02:01:42.660 but in other places yeah um you you'd rather come across a jew than a muslim if you're a christian

02:01:49.160 in the middle east so i'm i'm with you on that here's the point though um why is james so

02:01:55.540 comfortable because i've heard him say that too why is he so comfortable um saying that islam

02:02:01.700 has more negative effects and as well like and and why why isn't there why aren't we writing

02:02:07.020 a declaration to protect you know uh hateful speech against muslims right like can we just

02:02:13.220 be honest and say that like um the west and christians in the west evangelicals and even

02:02:22.840 reformed evangelicals i think have like they're worried about anti-semitism i'm worried about an

02:02:30.020 unbiblical jew love yeah that that is i i think that what it comes down to when you think about

02:02:36.260 why a statement for for this religion but not for islam why can't you say judaism is worse but

02:02:42.360 james wikens say on the dividing line that islam is worse right um in other words it's not equal

02:02:48.380 weights and measures there are there this declaration the purpose is to carve out special 0.84

02:02:52.760 protections for one false religion that hates christ and hates christians but they would never 0.85

02:02:58.460 do that with any other religion false religion that hates christ and hates christians and that 0.92

02:03:03.700 just makes me ask the question do you have a soft spot for for one set of demons like i don't like 0.99

02:03:13.980 the islamic demons and i don't like the the buddhist demons or the hindu demons you know 0.84

02:03:20.280 and i don't worship i don't worship and bow the knee to the the judaism demons but um but they 0.94

02:03:29.380 can you know they can have some right it makes me think of like even like solomon with the wives 0.79

02:03:34.580 and like uh solomon's not going to go and worship molek he's not going to go and worship the at the

02:03:39.460 asherah poles um he's going to worship yahweh and even his citizens you know like this is our main

02:03:45.380 god but but i'm going to bring in some other people and because now i have family ties through

02:03:51.680 marriage to other people i'm going to carve out space for them to have some high places i think

02:03:59.920 you're i think you're entirely right to steal man it i think you they would probably say

02:04:04.000 world war ii was a lot more recent than the crusades yeah but i that's true but your point

02:04:13.100 stands load-bearing myth that's right yeah gotta get rid of the story gotta get rid of the post

02:04:17.980 consensus all right any other questions or super chats anybody that we should thank i mean we had

02:04:23.040 some yeah it's lots of questions probably super chats oh wow look at all these super chats real

02:04:28.200 quick let me just go to the very top i want to read every name real quick and just say thank you

02:04:31.740 publicly uh so we have boniface and joyer boniface and joyer thank you so much um for your gifts

02:04:36.840 super generous we appreciate that oh he gave us a 9.99 uh for he said for the movie uh uh review

02:04:45.120 fun so we can go watch Bonhoeffer and not have to pay for it. We also had Ndungan Simper Reformanda.

02:04:53.640 We answered your questions, but thank you for your generosity. Then we had Aaron Perryman,

02:05:00.940 Aaron Perryman, who says, my husband and I love your ministry. It's been a huge blessing in our

02:05:07.560 home. May God continue to smile upon you all. See y'all in April. Thank you so much, Aaron. That's

02:05:13.360 very kind we'll see you at the crisis king conference in april go to right response

02:05:17.840 conference.com right response conference.com and you can register today then we had cowpoke

02:05:24.700 ranch cowpoke ranch super chat thank you so much for your generosity we appreciate it he says

02:05:31.420 the moors of morocco are america's oldest standing ally by treaty in 1786 we who were black muslims

02:05:42.500 at the time we've been lied to for a reason maybe interesting i'd have to do more interesting yeah

02:05:48.740 i'd have to look into that may have been part of the the effort to get rid of the barbary pirates 0.73

02:05:53.380 oh they signed a treaty with them as black muslims and they're just like help us out

02:05:58.100 okay yeah i'm i can't give one answer one way or the other and then uh what would you say region

02:06:04.900 Regen?

02:06:05.400 Regen.

02:06:05.720 Regen.

02:06:07.280 Thank you.

02:06:08.140 It's another super chat.

02:06:09.120 Thank you for your generosity.

02:06:11.720 Appreciate that.

02:06:12.300 He said, Joel, talk about the statement that Joseph Spurgeon made in response that you

02:06:18.060 helped with.

02:06:18.620 Yeah, so some of you guys saw on Twitter.

02:06:20.160 We don't have time to talk about it today.

02:06:22.460 But yeah, check it out.

02:06:23.480 It was a good statement.

02:06:24.560 He reached out to me ahead of time because he had received the Antioch declaration before

02:06:30.240 they publicly dropped it.

02:06:31.240 And he had told me, he said, hey, you know, heads up, this thing's dropping.

02:06:36.240 I don't know if you've heard about it.

02:06:38.440 And I was like, yeah, sounds about right.

02:06:43.060 And he said, I'm not going to sign it.

02:06:47.860 There's some things that I don't agree with.

02:06:50.380 And so then he started working on his own statement.

02:06:54.360 And I helped a tiny, tiny bit.

02:06:57.280 He did 99.9% of the work.

02:06:59.540 but um i thought it was good i thought it was um all the kinds of things that we just just uh the

02:07:05.240 four different things that we covered today that we disagreed with with the declaration um joseph

02:07:10.520 spurge and his statement i didn't have those things and worried it much better and allowed for

02:07:14.900 different false religions at various times and various places to have more or less negative

02:07:20.820 temporal effects on on christians and just human beings alike and a lot of uh a lot of better

02:07:26.860 language and so yeah so if you guys want to check that out just go to uh joseph spurgeon on x check

02:07:31.800 out his profile scroll down i'm sure you can find uh that's where he posted it was on x i thought he

02:07:36.820 did a good job and uh yeah that's that's about it um has james white preached the gospel to jews

02:07:47.840 uh mormon muslim yes i'm sure yes i just i've never seen an apology episode at the synagogue

02:07:55.540 maybe not i don't know but he muslims just might be more hospitable in terms of giving him 0.96

02:08:03.540 invitations they do i mean they love to debate yeah i know i know jews do to that muslims do

02:08:10.960 okay they really love to have like actual good faith debates yeah it could be that muslims have

02:08:15.560 just been more comfortable with having james come and uh than than jews i don't know um all right

02:08:22.640 a couple people said thank you for this panel they found it helpful we appreciate that last

02:08:28.240 thing i'll say here at the very end is just again if you are considering a ministry where they can

02:08:35.160 offer a tax write-off to give an end of the year donation we would very much appreciate if you

02:08:41.700 would prayerfully consider right response ministries you would just go to right response

02:08:44.960 ministries.com forward slash donate right response ministries.com forward slash donate

02:08:51.720 There's a lot that we believe the Lord has put into our hearts to do

02:08:54.680 in the year of our Lord, 2025, and we can't do it without you.

02:09:00.400 And throughout all this controversy and things that have been going on,

02:09:07.440 yeah, like there's not our ministry, sadly,

02:09:12.300 I don't feel like it had to be this way, but our ministry will not.

02:09:17.460 It's just, it's not for everyone.

02:09:19.260 I'll just say that.

02:09:19.760 It's not going to be supported, um, by, um, by everyone.

02:09:23.980 And so for those of you, um, who are able to think in categories and understand the

02:09:29.420 kinds of things that we're saying, you see why they're necessary and you see why it's

02:09:32.500 important and, and you don't just watch, you know, a 30 second clip, you know, and, and,

02:09:38.520 you know, get angry.

02:09:40.500 Um, what you're, there's, there's not a lot of you, I guess is what I'm saying.

02:09:45.120 There are, I mean, there are thousands and thousands and thousands of people who have been convinced that our ministry and that I personally are just terrible people and racist and anti-Semitic and I don't know, whatever else.

02:10:01.980 And so we really do rely, you know, on the donations of those of you who appreciate us.

02:10:09.020 So I know that some of you are out there, you're like, Joel, stay strong, you're messaging me, you're emailing me.

02:10:15.120 And it's been super encouraging.

02:10:16.620 You've been praying for me and saying, don't give up, don't give in.

02:10:21.600 And I'm telling you right now, I won't.

02:10:23.540 I will not give up.

02:10:25.400 But it would be all the easier not to give up if you would help support our ministry.

02:10:32.900 Because there's a lot of people who maybe have in the past who will not do that any longer.

02:10:38.480 You know what I'm talking about.

02:10:40.340 You know the dividing lines are kind of being etched in the sand.

02:10:45.180 And so, yeah, there is some turnover right now.

02:10:48.160 And so for those of you who agree with us and understand what we're saying

02:10:52.520 and think that it's important that it's being said,

02:10:55.400 I need your encouragement and prayers, but I also need some of your money.

02:10:59.820 I'll be honest.

02:11:00.860 It takes money to do what we do.

02:11:02.760 Cameras cost money.

02:11:04.460 Nathan is not doing 70 hours a week pro bono.

02:11:08.840 He has a wife and children to feed.

02:11:10.340 We want to pay Michael and Wes.

02:11:11.740 they're doing a lot of work and they want to do this with me not just once a week but three times

02:11:17.160 a week so that's triple the work so we don't need millions of dollars but we need something

02:11:21.900 um so please consider that right response ministries.com forward slash donate happy

02:11:29.420 thanksgiving to everyone and god bless

02:11:41.740 You

The NXR Podcast - November 28, 2024

THE LIVESTREAM - The Antioch Declaration： Where Do We Go From Here？

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