The NXR Podcast - THE LIVESTREAM - The Idol of Third-Way-ism ｜ Rick Warren, Tim Keller, & Gavin Ortlund

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00:00:26.800 a picture of christ on the cross two thieves one on his left and the other on his right

00:00:37.180 a moment of cosmic significance god incarnate atoning for the sins of the world and yet

00:00:45.020 according to rick warren this is also a metaphor for political moderation now that post which was

00:00:53.880 recent, in February, now deleted, tried to argue that Jesus died in the middle as a sign that

00:01:00.900 Christians should reject both the political left and the right in modern politics.

00:01:08.240 But that's not theology. That's a desperate attempt to baptize political fence-sitting. 0.95

00:01:15.300 And it's part of a broader trend known as evangelical third-wayism, a concept that was

00:01:22.140 pushed by figures like Timothy Keller and, more recently, Gavin Ortlund. The idea is simple.

00:01:29.200 Christians should neither align themselves with the political right or the left, but instead

00:01:34.280 carve out a distinctly biblical third way. Now, it may sound noble, perhaps even wise,

00:01:41.960 but in practice, it functions as a convenient excuse for cowardice and simply coddling

00:01:48.740 political progressives while selectively condemning the right. Figures such as Stephen

00:01:55.200 Wolfe have called this out as nothing more than sharpshooting, that is, strategically engaging

00:02:00.340 with culture to present a morally palatable image to coastal elites while never actually

00:02:06.720 challenging the underlying liberalism that dominates our current institutions. He's right.

00:02:14.000 If politics is war by other means, then third-wayism is merely an attempt to negotiate a ceasefire while one side keeps advancing.

00:02:26.440 Which side? Always the left.

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00:02:54.280 Now, at the end of the day, third-wayism is not simply a bad take.

00:02:59.360 It's a bad strategy, and it is distinctly un-Christian. 0.99

00:03:05.200 Tune in now as we explain. 1.00

00:03:09.520 All right. All right. Here we are. G-A. G-A. G-A. Good afternoon. Welcome back to Right

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00:04:01.340 the friday special which will be all things christian nationalism with myself and the one

00:04:05.940 and only dr steven wolf today we are talking about third gayism or also known as third wayism uh you

00:04:12.380 know it's i've heard it both ways tomato tomato you know the pronunciation there's a little bit

00:04:16.460 of a creative license that can be taken with this third wayism third gayism either way yeah exactly

00:04:22.100 i mean it's it's the same thing um this is something that that honestly it's a topic that

00:04:27.320 i didn't think we would address because i thought i thought that we buried it you know a good i

00:04:33.000 don't know eight years ago i know or two years ago yeah so it was literally buried um with the

00:04:39.360 passing of timothy keller which is sad and tragedy um but it was metaphorically and principally

00:04:45.840 buried you know about eight years ago when uh we said no no more of that um that's just a carve

00:04:52.840 out for compromise that's all all it ever was and um you know if you're wondering what what's

00:04:57.900 third way is i mean here's you know in a nutshell here's a great example um it's almost always

00:05:02.240 applied to culture and politics, usually political. And it would be the example of saying, well, you

00:05:07.400 know, on the right, they're pro-life, you know, the political right, Republicans, you know, or at

00:05:12.860 least they used to be, you know, but Republicans are pro-life, at least pro-life-ish. And on the

00:05:18.480 left, you know, they're, they, you know, they're not pro-life, but they care about the immigrant

00:05:24.040 and the foreigner, you know, and, and they care about life after birth, you know, not just the,

00:05:29.060 you know the unborn child but life after birth and it's like what do you mean by that uh you know

00:05:33.580 and if you dig a little bit they're talking about porous borders they're talking about you know

00:05:38.040 letting in rape gains to destroy the country they're talking about uh welfare uh where your

00:05:44.220 tax money is going to yeah universal health care so so it's like well you know there's there's a

00:05:49.180 pro-life on the left side after birth and there's pro-life you know on on the right political right

00:05:54.140 side before birth, and Jesus is neither of these positions. He's right in between, or the other way

00:06:00.540 that you word it that's a little bit safer, but it's just as feckless and just as much cowardice

00:06:06.720 and just as much compromise is you say, well, Jesus isn't so much in between the left and the

00:06:11.500 right, but he stands above it all. He's above it all. And that's exactly what Rick Warren did with

00:06:16.620 this infamous tweet that he got. We have that. You want to show it right now? Let's go ahead and just

00:06:19.860 pull up the tweet so this is from rick warren less than a month ago in february and he has since

00:06:24.840 deleted the tweet praise god um and and he didn't do it out of the goodness of his heart he did it

00:06:30.640 because um you know faithful god-fearing patriots such as yourself uh mocked him relentlessly and

00:06:38.400 dragged him on the internet until he you know and and just utter shame couldn't do anything

00:06:43.660 but take it down and that's good that's that's a win we're happy that that happened uh but here's

00:06:48.740 a tweet. I can't quite read it. Nathan, I don't know if there's a way that you can get up on the

00:06:52.160 screen. Let's go ahead and just make it full screen if you can. All right, I'm going to read

00:06:58.460 it from... I've got it. I've got it. So this is what Rick Warren said. He posted an image of

00:07:04.660 Christ on the cross between the two thieves, a painting. And then he says, John 19, 18. They

00:07:10.120 crucified Jesus with two others, one on each side and Jesus in the middle. The guys on both sides 0.74

00:07:16.420 were thieves. If you're looking for that hashtag real Jesus, not a caricature disfigured by

00:07:22.540 partisan motivations, you'll find him in the middle, not on either side.

00:07:27.300 Terrible. Absolutely. So God in his providence decided for Jesus to be crucified in between

00:07:33.700 two thieves, one to his left and one to his right, because God was trying to set for all time,

00:07:41.040 or not even for all time, but for our time, 2,000 years later, it would become a politically 0.77

00:07:45.240 relevant metaphor for us to understand that uh that republicans are just as bad as democrats

00:07:51.200 that's basically what rick warren is asserting which is the reason we pick on rick warren is

00:07:57.280 because i mean you think about protestant popes macarthur's up there rick warren is a millions

00:08:01.980 and millions of books a speaker like this guy is a nice library he has he does have a nice library

00:08:06.540 he even do didn't he even do like the um uh the the uh for obama i think when i think so he was

00:08:14.260 sworn in i think he did the prayer like he's a presidential evangelical figure this is not

00:08:19.140 pastor in alabama davos this is not 2008 right this is not somebody with 37 followers you know

00:08:24.700 that we're picking on um it matters i mean a lot of people are persuaded by um by rick warren and

00:08:31.740 what he writes and what he says and so you know so he he came in and michael just read the tweet

00:08:37.060 and said you know um that you know basically like if you're going to follow the way of jesus then

00:08:41.980 you're going to be a political centrist, right? The timeless principles of the Bible just so

00:08:48.520 happen to align with Western liberal democracy in the year of our Lord 2025, and not even just

00:08:57.580 that in a general sense, but specifically right in the middle of the Overton window where it

00:09:02.560 happens to be this second. Or you're a feckless coward. There's the alternative option. 1.00

00:09:11.980 No, this is not a metaphor from our triune God and the incarnate Son dying on the cross to tell us that we should be somewhere in between Republicans and Democrats in America in 2025.

00:09:26.860 And so when he took it down, he retweeted, and this is my point of the two scenarios.

00:09:30.380 So third way is in being, well, you should be in the center, right in between.

00:09:34.840 Or the other option is it wasn't really a genuine repentance or anything like that. 0.99

00:09:39.660 he wasn't like oh you know what i really i really messed up you know by by saying this very stupid 0.83

00:09:45.060 thing instead he came back and instead of apologizing uh you know it was this this fake 0.54

00:09:51.420 you know facade of an apology where he says i shouldn't have uh lowered you know the death of

00:09:56.720 our savior to um you know uh being a political centrist uh instead the truth is jesus stands

00:10:04.740 far above it all right right so so then it's like so so he goes from uh you should politically

00:10:11.020 situate yourself right in the center in between republicans and democrats in 2025 he goes from

00:10:17.020 that um statement to then saying you basically should be apolitical uh if you really you know

00:10:23.040 my bad i messed up uh if you really want to be like jesus then you're apolitical and you just

00:10:27.700 don't really have a position at all so at first he's saying you should be in the middle and then

00:10:31.860 Second, he's saying you should be agnostic, politically agnostic.

00:10:35.640 And the reality is that both of those things are false.

00:10:39.220 Now, does that mean that if Jesus was alive today, that he would be wearing a MAGA hat

00:10:44.200 and that he would be a Republican?

00:10:45.800 At the convention?

00:10:46.900 No, I don't think so.

00:10:48.400 But here's the deal.

00:10:50.100 When we say, well, Jesus is neither a Republican or a Democrat, fair.

00:10:54.920 But what you're insinuating, what most bad faith guys who ascribe to this third wayism,

00:10:59.960 What they're insinuating is when they say, well, Jesus isn't a Republican or a Democrat, what they're trying to say is that both the Republican Party and the Democrat Party are equally distanced from Jesus.

00:11:11.160 He's neither, and he's equally neither.

00:11:14.240 Meaning that you could, and so what's the takeaway?

00:11:16.760 What's the application?

00:11:17.540 You can go either way.

00:11:18.840 When it comes to voting, you could either not vote at all.

00:11:21.920 That's what, you know, John Piper did right before the 2020 election was he wrote an article that, you know, he didn't he knew he didn't have a leg to stand on to say, you know, Joe Biden is a good Christian man and he deserves your vote. 0.97

00:11:33.260 But what he did instead is he said, well, you know, Biden, you know, is for killing millions of babies, but Trump is arrogant and has mean tweets. 0.89

00:11:41.160 I'm paraphrasing, but this is virtually what he said.

00:11:43.560 And then he said, you know, but if we were to calculate, you know, all of the negative consequences nationwide from these two sins, the sin of murder of the unborn and the sin of arrogance on social media, who's to say that one is really worse than the other?

00:12:00.160 And then he begins to carve out his, you know, explanation for why arrogant Twitter post might be equally sinful to abortion.

00:12:10.640 And so then the takeaway is, you know, in true John Piper fashion, he would be more the Jesus stands above it all.

00:12:18.400 So not in the middle.

00:12:19.540 You can vote either way, but up above, you probably shouldn't vote at all.

00:12:23.980 And who's to know?

00:12:25.540 I mean, it was razor-thin margins in seven different swing states, four of them, if they

00:12:31.280 had gone for Trump, Arizona, Wisconsin, I'm trying to remember, I think Utah was one of

00:12:36.520 them, but there were four key swing states that in total, in those four swing states

00:12:42.420 that had they gone for Trump instead of Biden in the electoral vote, Trump would have been

00:12:46.780 the president.

00:12:47.900 Now, God is sovereign over all of it, and Trump's doing, you know, he's doing some

00:12:51.680 things that we disagree with, but he's doing a lot of things that we do agree with.

00:12:54.360 we're grateful for how things have shaken out but the point is there's 13 service members that died

00:12:59.180 in afghanistan there's all all i mean all the covid madness and the lockdowns and um and you

00:13:05.120 know printing money yeah billions and millions of dollars yeah trillions of dollars uh inflating

00:13:10.640 our economy all these different things um that happened because biden was elected president

00:13:17.380 even with ukraine and russia and all those kinds of things russia invading you know ukraine and

00:13:22.900 all like, you know, peace through strength is Trump's MO. And he's been very successful with

00:13:28.300 that. So during that, it basically said to the world, you've got a four year window to cause

00:13:33.260 trouble. And that's what the world did for four years. And my point is that if you collect all

00:13:39.600 the votes from these four key out of the seven swing states that were contested in the 2020

00:13:45.860 election, if just four of them had gone the other way and gone for Trump, Trump would have been

00:13:50.340 president and and things would have been radically different and the collective vote within those

00:13:54.480 four i believe it was it was uh i think it was 48 000 at most it would have been in the 70 000s

00:14:00.560 so like 76 000 or something like that um in other words john piper's article who he has a massive

00:14:07.960 you know influence john piper's article who's to say that uh that that didn't actually swing an

00:14:13.860 election and then someone with an even bigger platform like a rick warren um these ideas have

00:14:19.340 consequences and and ideas that affect elections certainly have consequences and so it matters

00:14:25.280 it's worth bringing up um i thought that third wayism was was good and dead and buried six feet

00:14:30.620 under but uh it has apparently risen from the dead or at least a few guys are trying to make it rise

00:14:36.280 from the dead and rear its ugly head once again and so we would like to go ahead and um as a

00:14:41.600 kindness to our nation and as a kindness to the church of jesus christ here in america we would

00:14:46.520 like to go ahead and bury it once more. The question is, why at this moment is third-wayism

00:14:56.960 being talked about again by some of these evangelicals? Why wasn't it last summer when

00:15:04.020 Biden was just kicked out without any democratic process, Kamala was installed?

00:15:11.500 Why is it that once Trump is in, and we're not going to say everything that Trump is doing is good, but on the whole, it's been a great push in a more conservative direction.

00:15:24.360 Right.

00:15:24.540 And allowing opportunity, I think, in the long run for the church to be more effective, more free, more vocal about important things.

00:15:31.700 On issues like Ukraine, Trump is too—I mean, you just have to come to terms with this for a second.

00:15:37.220 our president and vice president are currently to the right of the evangelical church in america

00:15:42.840 that's right on nine out of ten issues yeah and uh and not uh sparking up world war three happens

00:15:50.160 to be one of those issues that our president who i believe is probably unregenerate i don't believe

00:15:56.220 that trump is a christian i'm grateful for a lot of his christian rhetoric he may be a christian

00:16:00.780 if so he's probably a baby christian for lack of a better phrase or an immature christian who's

00:16:05.840 probably going to stay immature because he's chosen to surround himself by christian influences

00:16:10.560 such as paula white which certainly doesn't help but even the paula white situation it's like well

00:16:14.740 why is she in the white house why isn't it evangelicals got their chance yep mike pence

00:16:20.040 we had an evangelical in the white house yep remember that remember how that went i didn't

00:16:24.740 want to we we had our chance right it's like well uh jd jd vance is a catholic uh-huh yep and uh

00:16:33.360 and in trump's first turn we had uh we had an evangelical right and i'll take vance every

00:16:39.060 single day of the week and twice on sunday over mike pence um so so we had our chance we had even

00:16:45.040 so why why is paula white you know um because loyalty that's why i don't think she's uh i think

00:16:51.660 there's a terrible decision i think it's an absolutely terrible decision but if you're

00:16:56.340 surprised by it then then you've got another thing coming like you shouldn't be surprised

00:17:01.840 you can be disappointed sure but you shouldn't be surprised by that selection why did why did

00:17:07.100 trump pick paula why oh i don't know because the entire world turned against him and she didn't

00:17:12.800 yep imagine that right well why don't evangelicals have a seat at the table um because all the good

00:17:20.860 things that trump does we have this leftist drivel rhetoric that that condemns them as though they're

00:17:27.500 bad even when they're good and then uh the the good thing you know the bad things that trump does

00:17:33.240 we highlight those at the expense of any encouragement right so that's that's a big

00:17:38.700 part of why evangelicals don't have a seat at the table so all that being said my point is i think

00:17:44.660 with that question why is the third way coming back out well you don't really need the third way

00:17:49.160 when you've already won that's right that's what someone just said rob said they didn't need it

00:17:53.540 when they were in power that's 100 you don't need the third way when uh when the actual way

00:17:58.560 the evil way that you're rooting the real way has already won the third way is just a detour

00:18:05.740 to wickedness i'll say that again this is what you need to understand there's righteousness

00:18:10.380 and wickedness the third way is just a detour a longer path to wickedness pull that chart right

00:18:16.800 up so just so you can see this is the last the very last image we're charting action every episode

00:18:22.780 I didn't even make this one.

00:18:24.400 This was someone great on Twitter who made it.

00:18:25.960 So you kind of have this idea, your first way and then your second way.

00:18:29.080 You've got truth on one side and lies on the other.

00:18:31.600 And then you have this third way, and it's like, well, we can split the difference, right?

00:18:34.920 There's truth, there's lies, but there's also grace.

00:18:38.460 Typically, this is exactly how it goes.

00:18:40.560 Your third way, you then turn around to punch right because the truth is inconvenient, which leads to a type of soft progressivism.

00:18:47.420 And ultimately, progressivism, what it always leads to in denominations, look across 100 years.

00:18:51.500 they ordain women pastors they get soft on on marriage you deconstruct and you've arrived at

00:18:57.440 the same side of the lies the deconstruction the progressivism that you intended to shortcut in

00:19:02.680 the first place right this is how it goes yep so the two ways a choice one is truth or righteousness

00:19:08.200 one is lies and wickedness the third way it's just a longer route to lies and wickedness and

00:19:13.760 so you only need the third way if you're a truly sinister bad actor a nefarious person who is on

00:19:20.340 the side of lies and wickedness. You only need the third way if you can't convince enough people

00:19:25.300 to take the short path to wickedness. Then you say, well, could I interest you in the scenic route

00:19:29.960 to, you know, debauchery and degeneracy? I think it's a little actually more subtle than that,

00:19:33.660 Joel. I think it's a lot of evangelicals, and I'm speculating here, so take that, you know,

00:19:39.380 caveat here at the beginning. A lot of evangelicals know they can't go exactly from the middle

00:19:43.880 to the lies, right? They know that they can't, maybe even on a moral level, certainly on an

00:19:49.000 image level. And so I think that the third way is as much a lie to convince others as it is

00:19:54.580 to convince themselves to get to where they were going to get eventually.

00:19:59.520 Yeah. Yeah. I think you're probably right. So that I can choose sin, but still be able to sleep at

00:20:03.300 night, assuage my conscience, you know, or slowly dull my conscience instead of doing it all at

00:20:08.800 once. Yeah. So that's, so long story short, somebody in the chat put it and it was well

00:20:14.520 said insightful comment but uh why is the third way uh rearing its ugly head after we thought we

00:20:20.500 you know it was it was sufficiently killed and buried um because it's needed again uh you you

00:20:26.660 don't need the scenic route to wickedness when enough people in the country are willing to take

00:20:31.620 the short route to wickedness but when the majority when the overton window shifts and

00:20:36.400 the majority of the people in the country are not willing to take the short path to wickedness and

00:20:41.180 And so, given only two options, short path to wickedness or path to righteousness, if they're going to choose the path to righteousness over the short path to wickedness, then you need that alternative.

00:20:50.960 You need that third path of, oh, well, there's also this other path that's, you know, it's neither this nor that.

00:20:55.980 Oh, JK, gotcha, boom, wickedness and lies.

00:20:59.200 And so, I think that's why it's making a comeback.

00:21:01.800 I legitimately remember during Trump's first term, the church we were at, not a great church, it was in a college town where me and my wife were going to school.

00:21:07.460 pastor it's been like 2018 2019 he's up there in a members meeting i hope we have members that vote

00:21:13.320 straight republican and straight democrat and i remember that rhetoric lasting through

00:21:17.700 till 2021 yeah literally like i remember like those types of kellerisms and aphorisms and

00:21:23.060 pithy little sayings that were thrown out all the way up through right till about the stage where

00:21:27.980 oh we don't need these anymore and they've come back now it was a little bit before the election

00:21:32.600 ray ortland he kind of did a one of those jukes and uh now it's bad so we're going to show a tweet

00:21:38.180 by gavin okay but before we do ray ortland real quick his so this is gavin's father and his tweet

00:21:44.840 during um the election cycle this last time this last time in 2024 um he said never trump there's

00:21:52.700 three little sentences never trump this time harris always jesus let me say that again because 0.97

00:21:59.720 i mean it's it's so it's so dumb it almost knock you over but so sit down you know sit down stay 0.63

00:22:05.620 wide yourself never trump this time harris kamala harris always jesus retweeted and commented by 0.96

00:22:14.400 david french of course who said uh david french i think did the uh the mandalorian and and he did

00:22:20.460 ironically he was serious this is the way you know like so all the usual suspects your russell

00:22:25.940 more types and david french types they came out of the woodwork to say oh yeah ray orton this is

00:22:30.420 great so now this is his son yeah go ahead let's uh so so when rick warren did the put his post out

00:22:38.060 a while ago i thought about should we bring it up in a podcast and and we didn't um but but gavin

00:22:44.120 you know kind of pushed the issue a little further so this is what he tweeted on february 28th so

00:22:49.860 just just a few days ago uh he says this he says there is real evil and sickness on the right

00:22:56.420 Christians should speak openly against it, as against evil on the left.

00:23:00.660 We are in a time in which third-wayism, properly understood, is increasingly needed. 0.64

00:23:08.240 Nope. 1.00

00:23:08.760 Increasingly needed.

00:23:09.920 So, for the record, Gavin does good work on his apologetics, his discussions about Catholicism, even Eastern Orthodoxy.

00:23:19.220 Yep.

00:23:19.420 He is doing good work out there.

00:23:21.120 You know, we say that, Michael.

00:23:22.920 We say he does good work.

00:23:23.920 but when you see tweets like this then i'm i i have to be honest i'm like

00:23:28.920 we just did that whole episode and got dragged for it by all the eo boys and um man if we're

00:23:35.800 sitting here saying gavin newsom uh gavin newsom gavin uh same different you know it's not the 0.71

00:23:41.520 same it's it's not the clean shaven white men if we think you know gavin ortlin is doing a great

00:23:47.520 job on his apologetics against eastern orthodoxy and roman catholicism and then we see tweets like

00:23:52.540 this my man like is it time for me just to just to check out a protestant you know all together

00:23:59.580 john doyle just said he's coming to our conference oh fantastic which is i didn't see that yeah yeah

00:24:05.500 john doyle uh he said he you know what i said is it true that you know comrade you know doyle is

00:24:10.200 coming to our conference and he said something about like uh it's a it's a uh coachella for

00:24:16.120 bigots i wouldn't miss it for the world you know and then i like i i commented uh with a picture

00:24:22.540 from dune of the guy you know it said like in accordance with the prophet he's coming so i

00:24:28.140 mean we've got you know we've got uh john doyle is going to come to the conference we've got um

00:24:32.940 calvin robinson coming to the conference i asked charles haywood if he would come

00:24:37.340 and he said he would love to but he probably won't be able to because he's i don't know he's

00:24:42.160 going to be buying and selling soap or something i don't know anyway just doing warlord things but

00:24:46.680 these i mean these are great guys who we love uh friends of our ministry and they do great work on

00:24:51.800 on the political and cultural war and uh but they give us a hard time for our stance of being

00:24:56.820 protestants and i'll be honest i'm still a protestant i was being facetious but um i'll 0.87

00:25:01.320 be honest like yeah like when you look at the protestant church in america it's gay it's 0.98

00:25:07.520 effeminate it's it's feminized it's it's weak it's uh politically constantly carving out you 0.97

00:25:14.520 know some kind of caveat for why why you know we shouldn't have borders and why we should be

00:25:20.040 overrun by foreigners and why this and why that and um yeah it makes it tough that's all i got to 0.97

00:25:25.820 say here's here's the here's the silver lining the white pill though the fact that this is coming

00:25:32.000 out now from evangelical leaders means that there is positive direction in the right or positive

00:25:39.600 movement in the right direction uh if if trump was a disaster or if he if the right wasn't surging

00:25:46.980 right now uh if maggot wasn't making so much headway um and if and if younger christian men

00:25:53.000 were not being so loud and so outspoken about the new way of seeing things then there would be still

00:26:01.060 no need for this sort of language from Gavin and from Gavin Ortlund and from Rick Warren.

00:26:10.660 Yeah. No, you're right. It's like the animal that's, you know, on its last leg and it's barely

00:26:14.860 alive. It's been cornered and it's lashing out, you know, like you're absolutely right. The

00:26:19.520 resurgence, if we could call that, it's a pretty weak resurgence, praise God. But the, you know,

00:26:25.400 the half-attempted resurgence of third gayism, third wayism, is in many ways a sign that the 0.90

00:26:35.280 right is winning by a landslide. And what I wanted to at least kind of wind down this section with 0.80

00:26:43.220 is the observation that ultimately why we're talking about this issue is that still a lot

00:26:51.100 of evangelicals because of the way they've been trained for decades share this perspective they

00:26:56.900 share the idea that christianity and christ and christians really have nothing to do in the public

00:27:02.100 square and if they do it can only be to open the public square to egalitarianism to be nice to be

00:27:10.040 polite to be kind and the reality is even though there hasn't been you know like back we're gonna

00:27:16.460 read some quotes from Keller, but when he was writing about third-wayism, it was everywhere.

00:27:23.560 The fact that it's not everywhere doesn't mean it's not deeply embedded, right? And most Christians 0.97

00:27:28.720 in your average evangelical church would hear this idea that, yeah, we shouldn't be too far

00:27:34.000 to the right, we shouldn't be too far to the left, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle,

00:27:38.480 and they're going to kind of instinctively say, that's how I would have instinctively heard it

00:27:44.180 five years ago. Yeah, that's really spiritual, right? Don't take hard stances. The only hard

00:27:49.320 stance we can take is for the gospel. And the gospel, of course, demands that we either have

00:27:55.360 no political influence or that our political influence be to open up our nation to wickedness

00:28:02.140 and make it the swap meet for the world, as it were. It's funny because the irony is that in

00:28:10.140 some sense you could say third wayism is true if what you mean by that is that uh there's the left

00:28:16.160 that is a hundred percent opposite of what jesus commands in his law word of scripture

00:28:22.140 and then there's the right that's like 80 compromise from what you know and then there's

00:28:27.800 the truth like that there is a third way but it's not in the middle it's not in the middle it's not

00:28:32.740 in the middle it's you know we have two primary parties in our political system in our country

00:28:37.900 they are both wrong here's my big point though they are not both equally wrong right they're

00:28:43.040 not both equally wrong um and the way of jesus or the way of scripture what god commands to us in

00:28:50.280 his words um would have contradictions with both the democrat and the republican party uh so then

00:28:57.880 the question is which one is closer and the way of jesus is not in between it's not in the middle

00:29:03.020 you have the left then you have the right that is only right up and in comparison to the left

00:29:09.900 it's only right of the left and then on the far far far right you have god's word and the way

00:29:16.420 that christians and for that matter even pagans and non-christians have thought in virtually every

00:29:21.040 time and every place all around the world since the beginning of humanity until about the 1940s 0.71

00:29:28.020 right two great examples because i remember being a midwit like 10 years ago and for example like 0.56

00:29:33.580 egalitarianism patriarchy patriarchy and complementarianism that's a perfect example 0.76

00:29:38.500 would be very easy well actually egalitarianism fails here and patriarchy fails here and

00:29:44.220 complementarianism is the perfect balance of all of them but as i grew up i realized wait no both

00:29:48.760 of them there's egalitarianism and then there's egalitarianism light aka complementarianism and

00:29:53.680 the true one is to the right there are bastardizations of it there's it's misuse of

00:29:58.680 course that's still the true position same thing globalism and nationalism i don't really know what

00:30:03.500 you kind of describe the middle of but you could say like well true full complete globalism that's

00:30:08.500 bad but nationalism is bad too so we take the middle which is also just globalism there's a

00:30:13.920 lot of issues where if you lay out them and it kind of seems like oh the middle now that seems

00:30:17.460 nuanced and careful and cultured like no that's the same thing as the bad one you got to go all

00:30:22.760 the way to the right you got to go all the way to the one that seems extreme to actually get to

00:30:26.680 what the true position is patriarchy nationalism uh right-wing policies over progressive policies

00:30:32.740 those are where the truth lies when you find yourself as a pastor exegeting goldilocks and

00:30:37.620 the three bears instead of the bible then i think that should be your sign like somewhere along the

00:30:44.220 way i mean that's literally what it is with tim keller that was every sermon was just um a retelling

00:30:50.840 of the story of Goldilocks and the three bears

00:30:53.080 with a little bit of Christian veneer.

00:30:55.640 Once upon a time, there was a young Christian

00:30:58.440 and he walked into a house

00:31:00.060 and there were three bowls of porridge

00:31:02.600 and one was too hot and one was too cold.

00:31:05.960 But the next one, baby bear Jesus,

00:31:08.200 his porridge was just right.

00:31:11.160 Like that, I mean, that was pretty much

00:31:12.780 every sermon for good 20 years. 0.90

00:31:17.220 Sprinkles and full co in there.

00:31:19.080 the latter half of keller's preaching ministry um and i mean literally it's an it's a it is a

00:31:25.880 it's i know it sounds silly but it is a children's story it's literally a children's story right uh

00:31:31.460 and and then we're trying to make it seem like it's insightful and wise and profound and also

00:31:37.820 turns out goldilocks and the three little bears happens to be you know uh really just uh the the

00:31:43.480 the summation of the 66 books of the bible i i feel like that should be your sign like okay

00:31:50.460 something something's wrong here well the other thing that's implicit in the third way critique

00:31:57.180 is john harris pointed this out so it was from an older video that i was uh listening to um but he

00:32:04.960 said it might be true that poor that the poor should be better taken care of in a community

00:32:10.920 but jesus says it's because you're not being neighborly that your neighbor is starving to

00:32:17.580 death or dying on the street what third wayism does is it levels criticisms against the right

00:32:23.820 not from jesus command to personal charity right and kindness but from the perspective of the left

00:32:32.360 and progressivism and then it says because jesus may have critiqued that rich man for not caring

00:32:38.100 for Lazarus, who was in front of his house, probably. Therefore, our critique of the rich

00:32:43.480 man from a progressive point of view, or from the leftist perspective, is the same as Jesus's

00:32:49.220 critique. And so positioning yourself in the middle, then when you punch right, you are

00:32:55.720 punching still from a progressive mentality, which is why what we said at the beginning,

00:33:01.060 third-wayism is inherently slow progressivism. That's the posture and the perspective that 0.86

00:33:07.260 they're adopting to punch right rather than a call to personal care for your neighbor which is not

00:33:13.160 the same thing as tax the rich right uh leftists are um incredibly generous with other people's

00:33:19.280 money yeah i'll say it again leftists are very generous with other people's money and also one

00:33:24.740 more disclaimer that's worth mentioning nobody in america is starving to death right um like when

00:33:30.640 when you think of first century Palestine, and the poor in that environment, that if they were

00:33:37.900 not cared for, then they quite literally would die. They would just be left for dead. They would

00:33:44.140 starve and die. That's not the environment that we are living in today, because, in many ways,

00:33:51.200 in light of Christodom. And there's also a difference in the poor being, what does the

00:33:56.920 Bible, you know, focus on. Primarily, it focuses on not just the poor in a general sense, but a

00:34:02.460 particular subset of the poor, the widow and the orphan, meaning the helpless poor. It's not just

00:34:09.040 the poor. Anybody can be poor, but it doesn't mean that you're actually helpless and poor. You could

00:34:14.860 also be poor just because you're lazy or because you've made terrible decisions. There are plenty

00:34:20.680 of families in america that are poor because somebody's either lazy or because a father has

00:34:27.840 abdicated his responsibility and abandoned his his family say well my children are poor well

00:34:34.220 then maybe you shouldn't be in jail maybe you know let the thief no longer steal but work hard with

00:34:40.860 his hands so that he might have something to give right the bible talks about that or if if any man 0.82

00:34:45.820 does not provide for the members of his household, he is worse than an unbeliever. He's denied the 0.96

00:34:51.160 faith and is worse than an unbeliever. The backstop for dealing with poverty, we need to remember 1.00

00:34:56.200 this, is like, well, maybe the state wouldn't be doing welfare if the church would step up, you

00:35:00.400 know, and fulfill its role. No, the Bible does not say that it's the church's role. The church can

00:35:06.460 come into the equation and is commanded to come into the equation in specific scenarios. So 1

00:35:12.120 timothy chapter five um when does the church help financially with those who are poor when it's

00:35:18.200 widows and orphans not just anyone not not full you know able-bodied 20 something year old men

00:35:25.260 no widows and orphans and it gives requirements there are stipulations she must be 65 years of

00:35:31.720 age or or older um so not a 30 year old widow who could marry again paul even says if you're a

00:35:37.960 younger widow, don't make a vow to singleness, but instead you should remarry. So she's a widow.

00:35:44.800 Her husband has died. She's elderly, 65 years or older. She has no sons, no brothers, no uncle or 0.96

00:35:52.900 somebody else who can provide for her, even a daughter. And this is Paul, who is patriarchal

00:35:57.680 in first century Palestine, where for the most part, women were not working outside of the home

00:36:02.240 and generating wealth. And he even says before she's added on the roster of the church and

00:36:07.320 becomes a financial burden to the church and the church having a moral responsibility to care for

00:36:13.280 her even if she has a daughter not just a son but even if she has a daughter who could do something

00:36:19.180 in order to alleviate that burden she could somehow just like what ruth did for naomi ruth

00:36:24.400 was a daughter-in-law who went out to the threshing floor and gathered you know wheat that was left on

00:36:31.120 the sidelines in order to provide for her mother and the apostle paul would have had that you know

00:36:37.280 example in mind as he's writing this and he would actually commend that as a good and godly thing

00:36:42.220 he's not saying it's the ideal the ideal is that the woman's husband doesn't die or if he does die

00:36:46.280 that he's left an inheritance for her and their children but in a in a not ideal scenario but in

00:36:51.860 in a worst case scenario the apostle paul is thinking well there's other members of her

00:36:55.860 household besides just the husband that's passed away and so surely there's a son or there's a

00:37:00.380 brother or god forbid in a worst case scenario there's a daughter even who could take up this

00:37:05.040 financial burden to care for her mother, or in the case of Ruth, a mother-in-law. And then the last

00:37:10.240 line, not the first, but the last line of defense, is if she has no members of her household that can

00:37:15.920 care for her, if she's a widow, right, not a 20-something-year-old, able-bodied man, but a

00:37:21.780 woman who is a widow whose husband has died, who's elderly, over 65, and, here's the next part, and

00:37:28.040 she belongs to the church. She's a member, a faithful member, a Christian member of the church.

00:37:33.180 she's washed the feet of the saints so he gives all the practical um conditions then he gives

00:37:38.500 spiritual requirements she also needs to have been faithful she needs this and then and only then

00:37:44.340 only then the church can take responsibility and you know who never takes responsibility

00:37:49.840 the state right so the first line of defense for poverty is not the church and it sure as heck

00:37:55.500 isn't the state it's the family it's the family why are people poor in america because of families

00:38:03.440 Well, we could get rid of welfare if the church would step up.

00:38:06.080 No, we could get rid of welfare if fathers would step up. 0.90

00:38:10.720 If women would marry their baby daddies and not trade them in for Uncle Sam, 0.57

00:38:18.300 and if fathers would marry their baby mamas and work hard and not get arrested and provide for those children, 0.97

00:38:27.560 then you wouldn't need welfare at a state level,

00:38:30.260 and the church would still have to come in

00:38:32.320 in some rare cases

00:38:33.320 where a father dies

00:38:34.320 in those kinds of situations

00:38:35.340 but we have that outline description

00:38:36.660 we would know exactly what to do.

00:38:38.420 Yep.

00:38:38.860 Good.

00:38:39.280 I just want to briefly mention

00:38:40.220 we'll go to our first commercial break

00:38:41.240 it'll be quick.

00:38:42.060 Aristotle in ethics

00:38:43.080 does talk about a golden mean

00:38:44.380 so he mentions different virtues

00:38:45.820 and there could be deficiencies and excesses

00:38:47.820 so for example humility

00:38:48.900 a deficiency of humility would be pride

00:38:51.160 but then an excess of humility

00:38:52.780 would be degradation.

00:38:54.080 Same thing with work ethic 0.94

00:38:55.140 a lack of it would be sloth

00:38:56.800 an excess of it would be

00:38:57.940 something like workaholism

00:38:59.300 And I think, actually, it's pretty insightful.

00:39:01.760 Just all of these virtues have a balance to them.

00:39:04.620 But the point is, those are personal ethics and virtues, not entire political paradigms.

00:39:10.360 So I love what Aristotle said there, and that's definitely applicable to the Christian life,

00:39:14.400 that the Christian should be balancing these different things.

00:39:16.680 He shouldn't be a workaholic.

00:39:17.740 He shouldn't be proud, but at the same time, not overcorrect, if you could use that terminology,

00:39:22.040 into laziness or overcorrect into sloth.

00:39:24.420 He should hold and live out what is actually true and virtuous.

00:39:28.400 but that paradigm does not work when you go out to a political party of 100 million people with

00:39:33.880 thousands of politicians that all kind of caucus under one banner well said that being said i'm

00:39:40.040 glad that we're uh ready for our first commercial break because it'll give us all about about 90 to

00:39:46.260 120 seconds to mourn the fact that our dear friend wesley todd is going to hell because he just said

00:39:51.800 he likes something that aristotle said so let's go to our commercial break let's mourn for wesley

00:39:55.960 Todd, because he likes Aristotle. And we know that that means that he's not a Christian. Let's go.

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00:41:09.740 we are going to i i saw a comment earlier saying something to the effect of i watched the video and

00:41:19.640 it's clear you guys didn't uh so we are going to get into some of the clips from the video that

00:41:23.960 gavin ortland put out uh before then i just wanted to take a second to read through some of the

00:41:30.020 foundations we've we've talked about how um it popularized in the mid-2000s um but i did want

00:41:36.700 to read a couple of Keller quotes just to kind of lay the groundwork for what we're going to hear

00:41:41.800 from Gavin Ortlund. So, Nate, this is going to be the next image here. It's the longer block of text.

00:41:47.560 This is from an article, the one before that, Nate, I think. This is from an article that Tim

00:41:53.720 Keller wrote in the New York Times, of all places, an opinion article in 2018. He says this,

00:41:59.920 Christians are pushed to two main options.

00:42:04.700 By the way, the title of the article was

00:42:06.660 How do Christians Fit into a Two-Party System?

00:42:09.780 He says, 0.74

00:42:10.120 Christians are pushed towards two main options.

00:42:11.860 One is to withdraw and try to be apolitical. 0.98

00:42:14.460 The second is to assimilate

00:42:15.600 and fully adopt one party's whole package

00:42:17.940 in order to have your place at the table.

00:42:20.520 Neither one of these options is valid.

00:42:22.240 In the Good Samaritan parable told in the Gospel of Luke,

00:42:25.980 Jesus points us to a man risking his life

00:42:28.320 to give material help to someone of a different race and religion. Jesus forbids us to withhold

00:42:33.580 help from our neighbors, and this will inevitably require that we participate in political processes.

00:42:39.580 If we experience exclusion and even persecution for doing so, we are assured that God is with us,

00:42:46.580 Matthew 5, 10 through 11, and that some will still see our good deeds and glorify God.

00:42:53.040 He concludes that article by saying, how do Christians fit into the two-party system? They

00:42:57.480 don't they have to rise above it they can't be involved in it right which for the record uh

00:43:03.160 going back again about 10 years or so we went to a church and uh the lead pastor his dad was a

00:43:08.240 close friend of timothy keller and i it took me a little bit to catch it but that kind of third

00:43:13.140 way is him of i hope there's people that vote straight democrat vote state republican how

00:43:17.080 convenient is that for a church planter that wants a hundred and fifty thousand dollar salary in a

00:43:20.880 relatively liberal college town like you look at it and like oh is it sophistication and like this

00:43:26.040 new method of hermeneutics and all this great political theology oh no no no he just wants a

00:43:30.940 good paycheck and at the end of the day more people helps your church afford more have a bigger

00:43:36.320 building so if you want more people you should be less offensive and less offensive to people of

00:43:41.280 one or the other political party like a lot of it at the end of the day it was to put butts in seats

00:43:45.940 yeah we're going to take this middle position because that allows us then to keep people

00:43:49.260 from both sides of political aisle happy with us right okay and those days praise god um are

00:43:56.220 rapidly ending yep um it's like people like oh beware of tribalism beware of um america is

00:44:04.560 becoming uh much more tribalistic and the church evangelicalism is becoming more tribal um in many

00:44:12.480 ways you see um well you just see that you know like like some guys i'm you know we'll leave them

00:44:18.340 alone i've named these guys enough but uh beware the balkanization of the church the balkanization

00:44:24.760 of america um yeah i i would like if everyone could just get along but the reality is you can't

00:44:32.680 share a country with um with people who who are voting for policies that um then endanger your

00:44:41.120 children you know and and it's really hard to share a local church with people who um they may 0.98

00:44:47.460 not feel it in their heart they might just be stupid right it's not always malice it could just 1.00

00:44:51.560 be stupidity um that's a real possibility but in terms of their actions and and what they're 1.00

00:44:56.760 working towards what they're voting towards you know the decisions that they're making 0.99

00:44:59.960 um you're sharing you're sharing a church with someone who um in terms of political action uh

00:45:06.420 hates your kids um that's that's really tough and and so we're finally coming to a point at this

00:45:12.720 juncture in these united states where both in the church and the nation at large i think people are

00:45:18.080 starting to realize wait a second there there actually are it agnosticism is a lie there

00:45:24.640 actually are right and wrong answers to many of these questions um and and now people are sorting

00:45:31.640 accordingly right that you know they're doing this geographically and in terms of where people

00:45:36.200 are choosing to live uh they're doing this uh in their employment in terms of which companies

00:45:41.380 they're willing to work for. They're doing this in their churches. 2020 was the great sorting

00:45:47.820 of America in many ways, in terms of where people live, who they work for, what church they go to.

00:45:55.660 And I think that, yeah, it makes things heated. Yes, you feel tensions rising.

00:46:03.600 But I think that on the whole, it is a vast, a vast improvement. Better to realize

00:46:11.280 that you're a part of a a remnant that's righteous than a part of um the whole but that's wholly

00:46:21.460 uh compromised and uh and so yeah i think that this is a positive development um that now it's

00:46:29.040 like well we don't know which side's gonna win yeah uh that that's that's true uh but at least

00:46:35.040 now we're in the fight yeah at least now we're you know we've been woken up yep so it's interesting

00:46:42.040 that you mentioned tribalism and nate i think we're going to skip the next keller quote because

00:46:46.200 tribalism actually is the central issue that at least uh gavin ortland um talked about on twitter

00:46:54.320 on x you know you're you're of a certain age if you continue to call it twitter so i'm just gonna

00:46:59.720 Old Abbott's diehard.

00:47:00.360 I'm just going to put that out there.

00:47:02.220 But he didn't mention as many of the things that Keller was mentioning about, well, abortion, but also welfare.

00:47:09.860 He specifically mentioned on X tribalism and that that is the concern for the nation and for the church.

00:47:16.620 And so he said that we need third-wayism specifically because we can't allow ourselves to devolve into tribalism, which now seems to be the greatest evil that is going to be lobbed at the right and at conservative Christians.

00:47:33.420 So that is—they're using the same term, third-wayism, but the third way is tribalism versus what's the opposite?

00:47:41.200 Well, of course, globalism, right?

00:47:43.040 So we're going to jump into some of his clips.

00:47:44.920 And for those of you watching, Joel and Wes have not seen these yet.

00:47:50.000 I've seen them.

00:47:51.300 So we're just going to get their unhinged, unfiltered, completely off-the-cuff takes.

00:47:57.320 You're in trouble now.

00:47:58.380 That sounds great.

00:47:59.280 I'm ready.

00:47:59.920 All right, Nate, let's do clip number one.

00:48:02.020 All of this raises a question that I've been wrestling with a great deal, and I think we

00:48:05.920 all need to wrestle with, is those of you who are following my channel who are followers

00:48:09.520 of Christ, you know, what does it look like to be a Christian right now?

00:48:12.680 because we are in a very unstable and rapidly polarizing world. And there are real evils on

00:48:21.280 both the right and the left. And our modern world is increasingly pressuring us into one of those

00:48:27.320 two directions. The trajectories are powerful. They're powerful currents, and social media

00:48:32.000 accelerates it. And the reality is faithfulness to Jesus requires us to resist things on both sides.

00:48:39.760 And what I find very challenging about talking about this is that, especially for us in the

00:48:43.580 United States, if we express concerns about problems on the right, people accuse us of

00:48:49.220 being a leftist. If you criticize the Republicans, you must be a Democrat. If you criticize President

00:48:54.860 Trump, you must be for Kamala Harris, this kind of thing. People said this about me,

00:48:58.660 even though it's not true. I don't support the Democrats. I don't support Kamala Harris.

00:49:02.180 I just have concerns about Donald Trump. And this is the challenge that in the sort of

00:49:07.440 increasing binaries of the world, the right versus the left. If you criticize one side,

00:49:13.060 then you're often perceived to be joining the other. And the problem is, following Jesus doesn't

00:49:18.960 fit neatly into these categories that the world has given us. And Christians need to be able to

00:49:24.840 call sin, sin. And that's going to mean we're swimming against the current in multiple directions, 0.99

00:49:31.560 and we're fighting on multiple fronts, and so on and so forth. That's what I believe.

00:49:35.160 so so why would people accuse gavin ortland of being on the left or being a democrat

00:49:43.000 your dad literally publicly said never trump this time harris always jesus in addition to that

00:49:52.020 nathan feel free to fact check me on this i don't want to just say something that's not right but

00:49:58.380 isn't he on staff with russell moore at his local church they're both theologians and residents

00:50:05.060 at emmanuel it's in nashville or up in that area in tennessee with russell moore russell moore is

00:50:11.480 a democrat you're you're on staff with him yeah it's not just you're in the same denomination

00:50:17.520 you're you're in the same local church you're both on staff together and i'm pretty sure ray

00:50:23.200 wortland your father is the senior pastor of this church and he tweeted this time harris so it wasn't

00:50:29.360 just i have problems with trump but i also have problems with harris i'm sure ray wortland does

00:50:33.340 have problems with harris um but not enough problems apparently right to not vote for her

00:50:39.620 and to influence a massive amount of people publicly to think that that might be a permissible

00:50:47.160 christian position to take right so so why do people why do people think that i'm a leftist

00:50:52.520 bro because you're a leftist uh and if you're not if you're not same thing climate change

00:50:58.860 climate change agenda young earth same thing like if you're not and here's the tragedy i mean

00:51:03.320 honestly i feel sorry for you if you're if you're not then um that's a real bummer because i mean

00:51:09.660 honestly you should be getting paid something like the laborer you know the worker is worth

00:51:14.020 the wages i mean if your father is influencing thousands of people to vote for harris

00:51:19.340 you're on staff with russell moore who is a democrat shill um you're you know uh pushing

00:51:25.400 climate change, denying young earth, and then doing third-wayism in the year of our Lord, 2025,

00:51:31.760 you may not be a Democrat, but the Democrats should be giving you some kind of stipend,

00:51:37.440 something. The worker's worth is wages, and I've got to hand it to you. I mean,

00:51:42.760 you're working overtime. You should be getting paid. That's my hot take. I hadn't seen that

00:51:48.760 clip before, but that's how I feel. Yep, absolutely. And not everyone has to make

00:51:53.620 politics their identity so say he's doing great catholic and eastern orthodox stuff

00:51:57.060 keep on keeping on and when you veer into politics guys this stuff is evil let's get it out of the

00:52:02.680 way and and maybe someday we'll deal with these other problems like that's all that required like

00:52:07.020 we're not none of us are asking like the ideal situation would be he hangs up the apologetics

00:52:10.760 he hangs up this hangs up the debate and he comes out and it's 24 7 live streams about what contracts

00:52:16.020 doge is canceling tomorrow but if you're going to commentate on politics right be clear and say

00:52:20.820 we've been clear about the areas where we disagree with trump but also clear much better option like

00:52:25.400 this just isn't hard it isn't hard to be like oh this is to i support it's a little awkward especially

00:52:31.260 if you've curated an image of the nice guy and the soft guy and the nuance it's hard if you've done

00:52:37.360 that like it's really not all that hard i've had people serving me food and stuff like that and

00:52:42.060 they hate trump and i'm like well i hope he wins and i hope he's the dictator that you think he's

00:52:46.260 going to be you know that's my little bit of courage lord please make trump the man that my

00:52:51.360 enemies think absolutely he's not he's not even close but a guy can hope you know we can hope

00:52:57.280 and pray the other thing that i thought with the clip the last thing was you know gavin was saying

00:53:00.600 well there are evils on the left and evils on the right and i if he was sitting here i would just

00:53:04.220 want to ask the question what are the evils that you see on the right right because i see evils on

00:53:09.960 the right too he mentioned andrew tate earlier in the evils that i see on the right is ivf

00:53:15.240 federally funded um uh abortion still not abolished not even close um no fault divorce 0.57

00:53:25.320 right being completely uncontested just fine um gay marriage is coddled yeah gay marriage is 0.52

00:53:34.620 caught coddled and even at some degree uh celebrated as long as they're not like the right 0.70

00:53:39.560 uh the right wants to get rid of the gay voice right right that's about it they're fine with 0.89

00:53:44.900 you know as long as he as long as he doesn't speak in a high-pitched voice then he can marry another 0.98

00:53:49.300 man and adopt a child and adopted a child and we will come out and celebrate dave rubin and whoever

00:53:55.480 else sam altman you know all these all these guys um adopting babies who always happen to be baby 0.72

00:54:02.500 boys have you noticed that i mean let's just be honest like why why do why do two gay dudes tend

00:54:09.380 to adopt boys right this stuff is banned in a lot of europe too for the record like we are not just

00:54:16.700 like oh all the world does no china has banned gay couples from europe you're talking about

00:54:20.900 liberal europe even they they're like gosh america that's kind of like i mean yeah like

00:54:26.920 goodness gracious it did did no one teach you shame have a little dignity you know and like

00:54:31.880 so when when liberal europe is more conservative on a particular issue so so anyways back to you

00:54:38.040 know i would just pose it as a question so there's evils on the right and evils on the left and i

00:54:41.180 would say yes um not equal not equal but yes there are evils on the right but what what do you

00:54:48.500 perceive as those evils on the right because for me the evils that i perceive on the right are what

00:54:53.540 I just listed, gay marriage, gay adoption, no-fault divorce, federally funded IVF,

00:55:02.640 and without any restrictions. So, you're freezing 30 embryos in order to have one or two of them,

00:55:10.260 and the rest are now incarcerated without just trial. You have frozen children, and many of them

00:55:15.440 will eventually be discarded. That means that they were imprisoned before they ever saw the light of

00:55:20.620 day without a trial and eventually will be executed, federally funded IVF. That's what that does

00:55:25.960 on taxpayers' dime. So, now you have to pay for the wrongful imprisonment and execution of human

00:55:32.080 beings made in the image of God. So, there's that. And then, of course, all the lack of restrictions

00:55:37.540 and certainly the lack of abolition of abortion. Those are evils on the right. I'm with you.

00:55:43.000 here's the deal all those evils are on the left to a higher degree plus a whole other set a whole

00:55:51.340 other category of evils in terms of global affairs uh world war three billions of dollars to ukraine

00:55:59.140 um it's like well the right does that too yes the left will give billions to israel

00:56:04.140 and then billions to ukraine and the right will give billions to israel

00:56:07.960 they're both bad not great one is worse right one is worse it's like well uh the right they're a 0.99

00:56:14.980 bunch of zionists my my brother in christ it is the year of our lord 2025 there is no viable 1.00

00:56:21.100 political option in these united states after 150 years of dispensationalism that is not zionist

00:56:26.700 i don't like zionism i did a whole nine-part series on it you can watch the final episode

00:56:31.500 that will be airing this friday at 8 p.m central time okay i'm with you here's the deal um there

00:56:37.720 was no viable option right and i i know guys who said i wrote in joel webin i wish you didn't i'm

00:56:43.280 flattered i i appreciate the sentiment but um i'm i am not a viable option not at this juncture one

00:56:48.720 day maybe who knows but i was like thomas massey may very well be a viable anti-zionist candidate

00:56:53.980 in the near future that's right so good things are happening but he was not things but he was

00:56:57.320 not going to win president in 2024 and so but he might win senator next cycle right amen amen which

00:57:03.680 is amazing. It's incredible what the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our sight. We are

00:57:08.580 extremely grateful and very optimistic and bullish and hopeful for the future, especially when you 0.75

00:57:14.460 look at the decline of Christianity in America, and all of a sudden, it's starting to turn,

00:57:19.840 and who's it turning with? Gen Z, males, young men. I mean, that's predominantly young white men. 0.53

00:57:26.520 It's like, why are they becoming conservative? I don't know, maybe because they've been hated

00:57:30.180 from the womb like their entire lives and they can read statistics and they're like wait a second

00:57:34.920 i'd like to live i'd like to not commit suicide i'd like what does that mean oh well i guess it

00:57:39.860 means that i i'm politically on the right that's my only chance of survival and so right so and

00:57:45.100 with that comes well what other things are on the right oh christianity well i'm gonna go explore

00:57:48.860 you know my my heritage you know my religious heritage in this country and all these kinds of

00:57:53.260 things so there's we we are optimistic we are hopeful uh for the future not just 50 000 years

00:57:59.040 from now, but the near future in our lifetime, and certainly our children and grandchildren.

00:58:03.660 But as it currently rests, when I say viable option, what I'm saying is, yes, there are sins

00:58:08.880 on the right. And if we're looking at viable options for President of the United States,

00:58:14.840 then there is no option, there is no candidate that could be elected that doesn't have gross,

00:58:21.520 I don't want to minimize them, gross, egregious sins in his person, in his position, his campaign,

00:58:28.140 his policy. There are gross sins. But here's the deal. All the sins on the right,

00:58:35.420 those same sins, same category, but to an exponentially higher degree are found on the

00:58:40.900 left. And then there's whole swaths of other categories where the right is doing well,

00:58:46.420 or at least decent, where the left is absolutely sinister, like trying to welcome in millions and 0.79

00:58:53.640 millions and millions of foreigners into our country to cripple our economy uh to endanger

00:58:59.180 our wives our children um and so that's so again when he says well there's sins on both sides

00:59:06.020 i don't have a problem with that statement but that statement has been used with third ways and

00:59:11.160 over and over and over to there's the statement and then there's the unspoken meaning and the

00:59:16.760 unspoken fine print of that statement is there are sins on both sides and those sins are it's

00:59:23.520 pretty much a wash they're pretty much you know they're morally equivalent right and so what does

00:59:28.700 that mean well it means you could go either way um no there are sins on the right but the sins on

00:59:34.320 the right are the exact sins of the left except the left is worse and then the left has a whole

00:59:41.320 other category categories of sins where the right is actually much better on trump is much better on

00:59:48.400 foreign policy than kamala harris would have been we would be in world war three uh three some at

00:59:53.320 some point during these four years if kamala had been elected president which people are asking

00:59:57.300 about that we are talking about that on wednesday that's the plan yeah but instead we get to see

01:00:01.740 zelinski we get to see trump and vance do a john mccarthur with beth moore with zelinski and say

01:00:07.880 go home go and it was beautiful oh my goodness absolutely beautiful send him home get out of

01:00:14.920 our country so that i mean that is a huge win but here's my point when gavin says there's sins on

01:00:20.060 on the right this is what all the third week maybe he's the first guy ever which would require him to

01:00:26.220 be an apple that fell pretty far from the tree because his dad again literally months ago said

01:00:31.000 this time harris i'm voting for harris and i'm saying it publicly because i'd like for you to

01:00:36.620 do it too and he's on staff with russell moore okay so i don't feel like i'm just you know just

01:00:42.460 just you know you're charlie and it's always grasping in the wind here i think this is pretty

01:00:47.640 these dots are real close together it doesn't take a rocket surgeon you know to figure this

01:00:51.860 one out so um when he uses third wayism because of that context his dad russell moore these kinds

01:00:58.080 of things and you know his climate change stuff all that i'm pretty sure that he's probably using

01:01:03.300 third ways in the same way that all the other guys used to the way rick warn did recently as

01:01:07.860 as you know as recent as february and the way that tim keller was notorious as kind of the

01:01:12.660 pioneer of third wayism used to use it and and the way that it's been used historically and the way

01:01:18.640 that i think it's being used now is not just to say um republicans are not sinless right because

01:01:25.400 if that's what you mean then say that i mean you agree right but does that need to i mean does that

01:01:29.860 even need to like i want to meet the guy who says um you know what i've been looking at the the

01:01:36.360 the Trump party and his administration and all their policies. And I'm looking at that. And then

01:01:43.100 I'm looking at Leviticus and I'm like, corporate needs you to tell the difference between these

01:01:48.100 two pictures. And I'm like, it's the same picture. I think this is literally verbatim,

01:01:51.880 word for word, the Holy Spirit inspired text of scripture. I haven't met that guy. I've yet to

01:02:00.240 meet the guy who needs to be informed that he's currently in the dark and unaware that there is

01:02:05.940 sin on the political right so if you're just saying hey you know what the political right

01:02:10.820 is not sinless and there is actually evil there and sins there then say that but when you say

01:02:16.100 there's sins on both sides typically what you mean is you mean there are equal morally equal

01:02:23.080 sins on each side but in different categories and so what you're actually saying is you're not

01:02:29.520 saying there's sin on the republican side because they also are light on heterosexual marriage

01:02:35.660 light on the dignity and sanctity of unborn life. Light on this. No, you're not saying sins on both

01:02:43.360 sides because they actually share in the same sins, yet to a slightly lesser degree, in the

01:02:48.200 same categories as the left. No, what you typically mean is that there are sins on both sides,

01:02:52.220 the degrees are morally equivalent, and the sins on the right are just in a different category,

01:02:58.200 a different arena and that those sins um are are just as bad is the murder of the unborn of sodomy

01:03:06.420 and all these other things and so that guarantee if you pressed him he'd probably say well there's

01:03:10.560 racism or there's that's what exactly so that's a long way of saying if i asked what are the sins

01:03:15.540 he would for sure he would say truth theorem private room yeah that's what he'd say yep he

01:03:19.880 would say racism misogyny misogyny because he's talking about tate that's what he would say yeah

01:03:25.200 Those are the sins he's talking about.

01:03:27.540 The last thing I'll say about this, well, first of all, a clarification.

01:03:30.840 Someone in the comments pointed out, you are right.

01:03:33.420 Ray Ortlund is not the lead pastor of...

01:03:37.600 Emmanuel.

01:03:39.280 Yeah, isn't he like pastor of pastors?

01:03:41.240 No, he retired, I think, a year ago.

01:03:43.700 He's now the president of Renewal Ministries, which is an organization that his father started.

01:03:49.140 Okay, all right.

01:03:50.660 The other thing is...

01:03:52.160 I'm pretty sure he's a part of the church, though.

01:03:54.620 Yeah, he might attend it, absolutely.

01:03:57.180 The other thing is many Christians have been told

01:04:00.780 that their only identity is in Christ.

01:04:05.980 And so I found it really interesting when he said,

01:04:08.300 well, I don't like it when they call me a Democrat or a Republican.

01:04:12.980 And we don't like it when people call us names either,

01:04:15.520 but we are also okay taking labels onto ourselves like Christian nationalists

01:04:20.280 that are not strictly my eternal part of the family of God.

01:04:25.840 Like, that is our primary identity, and it influences everything. 0.69

01:04:30.340 But it is time for Christians to be okay with some earthly identities. 0.65

01:04:35.500 And then when people call you that thing, say, yeah, I am that. 0.99

01:04:39.780 I am a Christian nationalist, or I am a conservative,

01:04:42.520 as meaningless as that term is anymore.

01:04:45.420 But we are multifaceted creatures.

01:04:48.100 And so to push away or to say, well, I don't like the label, I don't like being put in a box, I don't even like being labeled in that way.

01:04:56.160 Well, if you're labeled wrongly in a slanderous way, then you have the option of choosing to defend yourself or not.

01:05:02.120 But having a label, having an earthly label, a political label, you know, anything like that, that's not bad.

01:05:10.980 In fact, we probably need to be okay taking some of those labels as Christians that we have not been okay doing for the past 30, 40 years. 0.56

01:05:18.740 That's why two and a half years ago, whatever it was, three years ago when Christian nationalism was making waves and all that kind of stuff.

01:05:24.860 And a lot of guys were hesitant.

01:05:26.000 They're still hesitant.

01:05:26.740 They never took the label.

01:05:27.680 And that's fine.

01:05:28.340 I don't think it was wrong not to.

01:05:30.140 But I remember making the calculus and thinking, you know what?

01:05:34.220 I'm a Christian and I'm a nationalist.

01:05:37.300 So, yeah, I'm going to go ahead and take this label.

01:05:39.700 um i think that it's a good label we can work with it um and i knew that it was i mean it was

01:05:45.380 invented by the left as as a slur you know a pejorative for um christians who were politically

01:05:51.660 conservative but i was like no yeah but but that is what i am and um and i'm going to work with it

01:05:57.340 because it's not it's not a a bad word um being a nationalist is a good thing being a christian

01:06:03.640 is certainly a good thing and so um i know you mean this as an insult um but the real insult

01:06:10.140 is that you think it's an insult um no this is a good thing so yeah i think as much as as much as

01:06:15.200 we can trying to um to realize that we are yeah we're finite earthly creatures we have you on a

01:06:21.760 team yeah exactly and we like we have an immortal soul that will never die um we will live forever

01:06:26.900 but um in this life we're here we're now this is where god places i'm an american and i'm a

01:06:33.480 proud american i'm a protestant i'm a proud protestant sometimes an embarrassed protestant 0.50

01:06:38.780 you know but not you know just because protestants these days are really gay but when i look at you 0.77

01:06:43.460 know protestants of yesteryear i'm like yeah protestants built the country catholics do not 0.86

01:06:47.780 build the country eastern orthodox do not build the country um protestant christians did and um

01:06:53.980 and i'm proud of that heritage and i belong to it that is um that's my tribe that's my tribe and

01:07:01.060 that's a good thing and you get to define your terms too so you could say i'm a republican

01:07:05.060 and not then say i'm a republican just like dennis prager and dave ruby ben shapiro you can say yeah

01:07:10.620 i'm a republican like thomas massey dusty deavers john shriver uh brent money well yeah of course

01:07:17.020 those guys that are awesome they would agree with us on a lot of things right that's what i am what

01:07:21.840 are you talking about and the crazy thing about and this is why like people are like well yeah 0.55

01:07:25.560 but republicans they're so gay and it's like in the literal sense they are that's true um i mean

01:07:30.740 there were like there were queers at trump's um the rnc you know all these different things 0.99

01:07:35.540 there you go yeah so yeah like well republicans are gay yes that that is true but here's here's 0.97

01:07:42.180 the deal um when we're politics is the realm of the possible we're pushing the ball further and 0.98

01:07:47.480 further down the court um now that doesn't mean that you just shill for someone right like we

01:07:52.000 you know like i did a whole post where i and i tagged you know our president i tagged donald

01:07:57.380 Donald J. Trump and VP Vance and pleaded with them, do not make this decision to federally

01:08:06.040 fund IVF. And I told them exactly why it's immoral and why it's a shame. And that if they

01:08:11.580 went through with it, that they would have blood on their hands and be responsible for bringing

01:08:15.760 greater degrees of judgment upon our nation. So supporting someone doesn't mean that you can't

01:08:23.000 also hold them accountable in fact when you're supportive turns out um people might actually

01:08:29.440 listen a little bit more when they know okay this guy's not just right you know an antagonist who's

01:08:34.240 always against me i can do no right i take a drink of water and and they're like you know why are you

01:08:38.880 doing that that's you know and like i i sit down they're like why are you not standing i stand up

01:08:42.460 why are you not sitting you know like um i'm not gonna listen to that guy like the people who troll

01:08:46.620 me online it doesn't matter what i say they've you know it's a confirmation bias they've already

01:08:51.460 decided that they hate me and so even if they actually ever had a good criticism which i don't

01:08:56.880 know if they ever have i because i've just goes to you know to make my point for me but i've tuned

01:09:03.020 them out because they may actually have a good criticism but i'm i'm not going to hear it not

01:09:08.460 from them because they they have proven time and time again that they're completely biased um and

01:09:14.580 and that they're they're not listening to me in good faith they don't desire you know anything

01:09:19.100 you know for my good they're not for me and so anyways um my point with the republican party

01:09:24.600 is a problem you can be a republican you and own that label um you can be a republican and support

01:09:31.740 um support you know like trump's running for office and you support him you vote for him you're

01:09:37.240 outspoken encouraging others to do likewise you can do all that kind of stuff and still from that

01:09:41.280 position of support still be honest and have critiques and hold them accountable and critiques

01:09:46.740 And as a Christian, especially for me, in my case, as a Christian minister, not just critiques, but actual rebukes at time.

01:09:54.060 You actually, I love you.

01:09:55.300 I'm praying for you.

01:09:56.760 I've voted for you.

01:09:58.440 Proud to have voted for you.

01:10:00.160 Also, I rebuke you.

01:10:01.640 In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, you are incurring judgment upon our land.

01:10:06.740 You need to repent of your sin and turn to Christ and stop doing this wicked thing.

01:10:12.480 So you could do all of that.

01:10:14.200 But here's my point. 1.00

01:10:15.120 you got the queers at the rnc you got the you know hari krishna or whatever hindu this and you know 0.99

01:10:20.900 hindu that and uh you got all that um but you also do have thomas massey's and dusty deavers 0.98

01:10:26.920 and brit like find me a dusty deavers who's a democrat right find me one like and that's the

01:10:36.700 crazy thing in 2025 is is godless as we are as a nation and it's it's bad it's pretty godless

01:10:44.100 is godless as we are as a nation is as far off the rails as we've gotten from our founding

01:10:49.720 you can still be a a genuine and i'm not talking about like limp-wristed mike pence but i mean like

01:10:57.560 you can be a full-throated masculine bible loving bible preaching christian and win

01:11:06.600 an election as running as a republican candidate right yep that's that's incredible you cannot do

01:11:15.660 that as a democrat right you cannot josh shriver from he's michigan a state representative literally

01:11:21.180 just like tweeting out put in a resolution we are going to acknowledge christ as king

01:11:25.980 of michigan this state needs to acknowledge formally in its documents that christ is the

01:11:30.600 king of michigan we have allegiance to him and he's like a sitting not a candidate not i want

01:11:35.920 to run right he's a sitting representative i think been elected twice democrat uh libertarian

01:11:41.940 no no he's not republican exactly yeah it's pretty amazing so and that's why this whole third way is

01:11:49.060 and well there's republicans and they have sin and there's democrats and they have sin no duh

01:11:53.000 sherlock of course um but what what you're doing with statements like that is you are insinuating

01:11:59.400 the fine print is you're you're you're convincing people to use another killerism it's not what you

01:12:04.560 said it's what your speech does it's what what it does well what what it does in this case is um

01:12:11.180 it convinces people that both are more are um equally immoral equally immoral and that is not

01:12:18.680 true it's simply not true yeah yeah before we go to our break there's a second clip and i don't

01:12:25.260 think we need to say a whole lot about it it just he gives a couple caveats where he's a little bit

01:12:30.620 different from keller so to be fair i just want to allow him to say his caveats about his version

01:12:36.380 of third wayism so we'll play it we'll let him get that out there when we come back we'll play

01:12:40.240 our third clip which we'll again talk about because that's where he now says well this is

01:12:43.980 why we need to be third way in this day so nate let's do clip number two if you guys have a quick

01:12:48.800 comment about it afterwards we can make it but i'm just putting a couple comments quickly yeah

01:12:53.520 and i'm just putting it here just to make sure that we're fair to what he said yeah no that's

01:12:57.240 good, Michael. Amidst the swirling forces of evil around us, what does it look like to be a faithful

01:13:02.880 Christian right now? I believe that third-wayism is something we really need to consider more now 1.00

01:13:09.100 than ever before because of the polarization. And I just want to put that out there and hope

01:13:14.780 this sparks conversations and reflection about this. Let me start by clarifying two things that

01:13:19.780 third-wayism isn't. Third-wayism is not detached aloofness. Third-wayism does not mean that we

01:13:27.000 should never commit to a particular political party, or identify with a particular side

01:13:32.280 in a culture war, or a particular political ideology, or vote for a particular political

01:13:39.220 candidate. You could literally be a political candidate and still be committed to third-wayism.

01:13:45.360 I'll explain that more in a second. Second, third-wayism is not splitting the difference

01:13:50.180 between the bifurcations of the modern world. The truth does not always lie between two extremes.

01:13:57.000 Third-wayism does not mean that the truth is in the middle of each dispute.

01:14:00.980 In fact, rarely will it mean that.

01:14:02.360 It'd be an unbelievable coincidence if the truth happens to be 50-50 in the middle.

01:14:07.900 I appreciate that.

01:14:09.040 And I'll say just briefly, I do agree.

01:14:11.060 He said, you know, for a moment, he said, in fact, you could be a political candidate,

01:14:14.360 not just that you could vote for a political candidate, but you could be that political

01:14:18.480 candidate and still practice a third-wayism.

01:14:21.000 And I was like, yes, the Republican Party until Trump my entire life.

01:14:26.560 right like you are literally like you might as well just say you could in fact you could be

01:14:31.500 Mitt Romney you could be Jeb Bush you could be Mike Pence you could be George Bush you could be

01:14:36.340 like um yes we are well aware Gavin um who I do believe just for the right I almost said brother

01:14:42.840 Gavin and that would be I think he is a brother in Christ and so uh brother Gavin yes we are well

01:14:47.760 aware the Republican Party has proven time and time again for decades that you absolutely can be

01:14:53.620 a squishy moderate centrist um and be a political candidate on the right you you can't do it on the

01:15:01.460 left though on the left see see this is where the right is changing and i think for the better

01:15:05.980 because on the left the left actually has standards right they say no no you can't you

01:15:11.440 can't be squishy you must be fully committed to evil they kicked out one of the democrats in the

01:15:16.700 house from the party who wanted to be a pro-life democrat right nope no way yeah so the left

01:15:22.300 actually has standards they're like wait a second you're telling me you're telling me that you could

01:15:27.680 go either way like you could gouge the american people for trillions of dollars of tax money or

01:15:33.060 you also would be okay with not doing that then no the democrat party's not for you i mean think

01:15:38.720 about this kamala harris remember somebody was saying christ is king jesus is lord at one of

01:15:43.880 the rallies and she said uh you friend you must not know where you are yep not at this rally

01:15:49.000 that's right so the left actually so i think gavin is right or and i'll say this and this is the

01:15:54.540 beauty he has been right that statement has historically in my lifetime has been right

01:16:01.260 until now and that's the beauty he's right you could actually not only vote for a particular

01:16:07.880 political uh candidate as a third wayist but you could run as a political candidate as a third

01:16:13.540 wayist never as a democrat right they expect you to you know choose this day whom you will serve

01:16:18.660 right right if you if you're not committed to serving satan and and and drinking the blood 1.00

01:16:25.040 of unborn infants and celebrating gay butt sex publicly in the streets in front of young children 0.99

01:16:31.900 then no you like you you have no place with us so so you you can't be a third wayist and and be a 0.99

01:16:38.960 political candidate as a democrat but my whole lifetime you gavin's right you could actually

01:16:45.260 not just vote for a political party you could run as a candidate but only with one party as a

01:16:50.880 third wayist as a squishy moderate centrist and that was the republican party and the only thing

01:16:57.020 that's different now is for the first time in my lifetime you actually have to make up your mind

01:17:02.820 for both parties finally like it you always had to be committed to wickedness to be a democrat

01:17:12.160 politician always always and now you have to be committed to some categories of wickedness

01:17:21.100 but also some categories that by biblical definitions would actually be considered

01:17:27.220 righteousness to be a republican candidate and you know i take that back depending on the position

01:17:35.240 maybe not president of the united states but but if you're a state senator for instance of a deep

01:17:41.060 state like oklahoma you actually can be committed to righteousness in some categories and not have

01:17:48.300 to commit to wickedness in these other categories you could literally be a christian nationalist

01:17:53.260 right the texas party platforms you look at the planks chosen by the grassroots it's incredible

01:17:58.220 it's wildly right-wing it's it's against abortion it's against unnatural marriages so it's pro the

01:18:02.960 family against taxes like it is in and there's nothing in it that's like oh and we want the 0.71

01:18:08.660 log cabin republicans the gay republicans to be fully included like no the grassroots of texas

01:18:12.900 the planks of the republican party these different individuals caucus with are all of them great 0.91

01:18:18.660 their policies their planks their priorities they're all great now they're squishy people

01:18:24.000 again the third way sure they don't necessarily uphold them but on paper it's a great party but

01:18:29.060 now we have yeah and now we have ten commandments in public school yep like that's one of the planks

01:18:33.200 we are going to display in classrooms yep the ten commandments that's not the only thing we need

01:18:37.300 certainly but uh that's awesome there's guys talking about abolishing property taxes

01:18:41.320 yeah there's a bill filed for it you got trump coming out with the a hundred thousand dollars

01:18:46.540 you know for high caliber people to come over and to get their green card no it's more than that

01:18:51.380 but it's uh i think it's like a hundred thousand dollars a person and if we had like five million

01:18:56.500 no it's five million per person million a pop five million per person for a green card or citizenship

01:19:01.180 a gold card gold card it's a green card that you buy uh gold yeah and like they could pay off the

01:19:07.520 national debt so anyway but the point is and which i actually think is a pretty good policy 1.00

01:19:11.860 and get rid of all your h1b and i know that i liked it at first but i just get rid of everybody 1.00

01:19:17.160 else if you're like if we're if we're gonna open up the doors my goodness could we get paid 0.99

01:19:22.120 right you know like and and then we took all these people for free oh exactly and then open

01:19:27.000 up the doors to people who are vetted and blah blah blah and and still on the whole go from

01:19:32.100 three million you know uh immigration to 200 000 yeah and in i don't know the math but you know

01:19:39.900 over the course of a couple decades pay off the national debt while you're at it that'd be pretty

01:19:43.400 nice but the point is here's the point um you can be a third wayist with uh the republican political

01:19:51.260 party but you can't with the democrat party that's what i wanted to point out is that the

01:19:55.200 democrat party has always demanded loyalty they've always demanded conviction spying right it's all

01:20:02.680 in the wrong direction it's all toward bent towards evil but they actually expect that um that you're 0.62

01:20:07.940 not going to be a squish that you're not going to be um that you're going to have conviction and

01:20:12.840 what is your conviction your conviction is to to incur the judgment of god for these united states

01:20:17.820 of america it's only the republican party that has ever allowed for this kind of language this

01:20:23.460 third way type of language and gavin is very concerned because he sees on the horizon that

01:20:28.620 maybe we won't anymore yeah and and i'm sitting here as a christian minister and i'm saying

01:20:33.240 who what what christian man looks at that on the horizon and thinks oh no this is a bad thing yep

01:20:42.160 i'm like like you're telling me that there'll be you're you're telling me that we're entering

01:20:47.020 into a season where you might not be able to um to have uh have light have fellowship with darkness

01:20:54.680 where you might not be able to um to lean on that that splintered reed egypt where you might not be

01:21:02.880 able to uh to grasp hands with ball or the asherah poles where you might actually have to make a

01:21:08.940 choice good or evil god or satan that like at and and you want me to be worried about this

01:21:17.180 yeah you want me to hear this speech and think oh no right oh like i feel like it's the meme is like

01:21:24.080 oh no anyways like this is great like a far-right revolution we don't feed our families yeah the

01:21:31.640 only problem i have with it is it it's the same thing that i would say to the democrat i would

01:21:36.400 say to gavin um my only problem is that it's actually not true and we're not quite there yet

01:21:43.340 i see i see hope on the horizon i think by god's grace we could be there but as of now

01:21:47.920 um i would say the same thing to gavin that i would say to everybody you know during the you

01:21:52.180 know the the election cycle that we're you know screaming into the void and shrieking of you know

01:21:57.460 trump being literally hitler and blah blah blah um i what i would say is uh god please um please

01:22:05.320 make what gavin is concerned about please make half of his fears come true that's my prayer yeah

01:22:12.040 good all right we're gonna get our next commercial break and then we're gonna do one more clip and

01:22:17.140 then we'll close things down so we'll hit those super chats that came in and if you definitely

01:22:22.340 want something answered um you know putting in the super chat is a great way to have that happen

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01:24:43.580 All right, so now that we allowed him

01:24:45.800 to make his two caveats,

01:24:47.520 we're going to jump into our last clip

01:24:49.180 and we're going to listen to what Gavin Orland is saying,

01:24:52.500 what his idea of third-wayism actually is.

01:24:56.820 So Nate, we'll roll clip number three.

01:24:58.480 This one's about a minute longer than the last two.

01:25:02.000 So listen carefully and we'll discuss it on the other side.

01:25:06.760 However, there is an old saying

01:25:07.940 that abuse does not take away proper use, okay? And the times in which we live are so crazy that

01:25:14.160 I feel compelled to speak out and encourage us to consider third-wayism a little bit here because

01:25:18.440 of these evils on the right and the ways that sometimes we can just, we're only looking in one

01:25:25.020 direction. So at its best, what is third-wayism? Let's, again, I'm going to try to be real simple

01:25:32.700 here in my thinking. Hopefully not simple-minded, but, you know, clear and brief. Best way I think

01:25:40.540 about it is this. The kingdom of God does not fit neatly into the categories of the modern world.

01:25:47.240 Western modernity is characterized by these various bifurcations, and we're frequently

01:25:52.580 pressured into a choice between two alternatives when following Jesus calls us something totally

01:25:58.680 different than either alternative. That doesn't mean it's going to be right in the middle of the

01:26:03.020 two. And because the gospel is our ultimate allegiance, our citizenship is in heaven,

01:26:10.160 that's our primary home and allegiance, we will not fit well into this world. We will feel like

01:26:16.500 exiles, and we'll be swimming upstream in multiple directions. Now, my thoughts here have been shaped

01:26:22.700 by Christopher Watkins' great book, Biblical Critical Theory. In the introduction to that

01:26:26.660 book. By the way, he deals with these concerns. He gives a good response. Though don't impute any

01:26:30.840 of my clumsiness and my thinking about this onto him. He's much better at this than I am.

01:26:37.300 But I'm going to link to his YouTube channel and also a helpful article he's written on this.

01:26:40.520 Here's what he says. Rather than crudely splitting the difference in this way,

01:26:44.620 third-way thinking is about letting the Bible set its own table, unfold its own categories,

01:26:49.260 and tell its own story in its own way. Rather than squeezing it in awkwardly between existing

01:26:54.980 ideologies at a table set by others. Only when the Bible has first been allowed to speak in its own

01:27:00.880 terms can we bring it into meaningful conversation with secular ideologies. At the end of the day,

01:27:06.020 I think, let's make it really, really simple. At the end of the day, it means simply following our

01:27:13.300 conscience. I mean, this is where these conversations between people who have different

01:27:17.360 leanings and different postures in the culture wars and in politics and all this, they're so

01:27:21.140 hard to talk these things through. Sometimes we're suspicious of each other. Can I just share my

01:27:26.000 heart, put it out on the table and say, some of us are third way and are speaking out about the

01:27:33.460 concerns with what's going on on the far right truly because we are trying to follow our conscience

01:27:40.520 and we see real evil over here and we're saying no. Thank you to all of you that endured. You're

01:27:46.560 still here with us. You're holding on to the ballast. You say any longer that I couldn't

01:27:50.520 have done it but um one of the biggest things that you'll see guys like this do with the third

01:27:53.800 way is they posit a framework so what they're proposing is a framework where grace destroys

01:28:00.000 nature right where grace takes an individual and it raises them above and outside of all of these

01:28:06.660 natural categories that they have right aristotle man is a political animal well generally speaking

01:28:11.180 as man has to interface with man or social animal man has to interface with man and form political

01:28:15.300 systems grace is not destroying that like when peter says like you are a holy nation a holy

01:28:20.100 people you're set apart what peter's not saying is everything else that you were before man woman

01:28:24.780 american politician magistrate business owner all those things are done away and now you have this

01:28:29.860 just new category where it's all just spiritual all just grace all just only singularly belonging

01:28:35.200 to this holy nation and so what these guys like gavin do is they say look you've just been given

01:28:39.560 this new identity and how perfect it doesn't fit in any of these no what grace does instead of just

01:28:45.040 removing all of it it says all right you're still going to be right-wing and conservative and what

01:28:49.600 you're going to be is a wrecking ball in the republican party to get it to obey christ that

01:28:54.520 grace perfects natural political categories so instead of again it removing you ripping it out

01:29:00.020 of it it's like well now none of these fit our bible none of these make sense with us no grace

01:29:04.080 comes in and says you're still going to occupy this space and then you're going to be like a

01:29:08.000 good magistrate like the ones that you've already mentioned and do a great job inside of them

01:29:11.980 taking the existing system and changing it trump remade the republican party in eight years you

01:29:18.640 christian with the holy spirit and god's word can remake your local county republican party

01:29:24.140 republican group you can remake it too that's what grace is doing instead of just getting you

01:29:29.060 what it does is it gets you off the hook well at the end of the day i just i belong to different

01:29:32.880 people and so america's going to hell in the handbasket but i have my inheritance i have my

01:29:36.940 hope and it's way out there right and really it kind of like i'm not really responsible no you

01:29:41.860 are responsible and grace has the power to change these categories that you already belong to

01:29:46.120 Yeah. He mentioned, I remember hearing a story once of Stephen Hawking, who was going to give a lecture on whether or not we are free or bound. Like, what does the universe say about whether man has free will or not?

01:30:03.480 and Stephen Hawking gave his whole lecture

01:30:07.100 explaining all these theories and philosophies and ideas

01:30:10.280 and then at the end of it he said

01:30:11.940 man is free

01:30:17.100 but the universe behaves in such a way

01:30:20.400 that he might as well not be

01:30:21.500 and I remember the person who told this story said

01:30:24.400 there was just this collective groan from the audience

01:30:26.780 we just listened to this hour long lecture

01:30:29.620 for you to say I don't know

01:30:32.500 for me not something quite as big but but gavin's conclusion was so all that to say

01:30:41.120 third wayism is about wait for it follow your conscience yeah and it's like really well first

01:30:50.040 of all a couple of questions what informs our conscience is it possible for our conscience to

01:30:55.240 be seared on an individual level is it possible for our conscience to be misguided on a cultural

01:31:00.200 level uh 100 absolutely and so to to say to christians who live in a wicked pagan society

01:31:09.940 that we as the evangelical church have largely helped contribute to in a lot of ways um certainly

01:31:15.700 by not speaking out against it to say to christians who have been very happy being the frog

01:31:20.860 boiled in the pot of water follow your conscience it's going to steer you straight uh no it is not

01:31:26.840 Like, one of the things that's happened to all of us over the last couple of years is that our conscience has been sharpened to actually value and love the things of God and the world as he has created it.

01:31:37.800 And so to say follow your conscience is without then saying, and by the way, this is how your conscience is wrong on a national level, is to just continue to invite people to continue in the apathy and the apostasy that they've been engaging in.

01:31:54.840 Well said.

01:31:55.340 what was the name of that book i almost blacked out when it came on the screen biblical christian

01:31:59.500 theory or or critical it was critical critical theory or christian critical biblical theory yeah

01:32:04.440 yeah and christopher walken he's he's actually good on post-modernism specifically uh derrida

01:32:09.760 but he's australian so not a not a not a good start there you start with that and you're like

01:32:16.920 all right well there you have it um third way ism or third gay ism i've heard it pronounced

01:32:26.020 both ways i don't want to sit here in a seat of judgment and say that it has to be pronounced

01:32:30.780 one way or the other tomato tomato it's up to you um not a good idea okay let's go ahead and

01:32:36.380 deal with the chat we've got some super chats today so we want to honor those we've got one

01:32:40.320 from michael yeah two from michael oh two from michael he says uh first one is third wayism

01:32:46.740 equals democrats larping as christian amen yeah yeah sounds good uh another one from michael he

01:32:55.080 says mike pence or jd vance who is a better christian yeah it's a good question we would

01:33:01.080 say jd vance we recognize that he's catholic we'd like to see him be protestant um but there's no

01:33:07.540 question in my mind, that he has done far more good for the kingdom of Christ and for biblical

01:33:15.300 ethics so far in, what, four or five weeks of serving as vice president than Mike Pence did

01:33:23.360 in four years. Mike Pence was your typical evangelical who had good rhetoric in many

01:33:29.260 regards, conservative, good on the way that, in terms of what he said, his rhetoric was good on

01:33:35.900 the issue of life for the most part um you know these kinds of things but um but you also you have

01:33:42.160 to take into account that the game has changed right that with the removal of roe with the

01:33:48.660 removal of roe uh you no longer have the cover fire afforded to allegedly conservative politicians

01:33:56.560 on the right you know squishy kind of mitt romney you know whatever these kind of jeb bush you know

01:34:04.080 or mike pence they they were able to parrot conservative language that seemingly would

01:34:11.860 you know speak up for the dignity and sanctity of life for the unborn um but you just you have to

01:34:18.900 keep in mind in terms of okay but what did they do and the reality is that over the course of my

01:34:24.600 lifetime um none of these guys did anything all all that happened right throughout you know all

01:34:31.600 these republican presidencies over the course of my life is you know is that abortion was

01:34:38.420 it just everything continued you know and and if anything you know that we just we lost ground and

01:34:44.520 lost ground and lost ground well now we're in a situation because largely because of trump

01:34:50.820 and his appointments to the supreme court and their decision where roe has now been removed

01:34:57.460 um dobbs is you know by a biblical standard dobbs is not a righteous decision um it ultimately should

01:35:05.560 be banned both at the federal level and the state level could states go against the federal of

01:35:10.680 course right like the states could you know could war on this issue you know that at the federal

01:35:15.380 level they could say abortion is abolished because it is an abomination in the sight of god

01:35:20.180 um on the basis the 14th amendment and all these different you know we are abolishing abortion at

01:35:25.660 the federal level. And then California, you could throw a fit and they could keep doing what they're

01:35:30.040 doing. And that could become its own mess and, you know, have to get sorted out and figure out

01:35:33.640 how to deal with that. But the righteous decision would have been further than Dobbs, not just the

01:35:38.000 removal of Roe and returning it to states, but it would have been to say at the federal level that

01:35:42.840 abortion is a heinous crime and a sin, and it brings judgment from God. And so we are outlawing

01:35:49.740 it. And then one by one, the battle would be with the states. Now with Roe being removed, we're still

01:35:55.340 in that position one by one it's a state battle but my point is that now because you know they

01:36:00.620 you know are conservative allegedly conservative politicians can't hide behind roe um now you get

01:36:07.300 to see how serious they actually are about life and the reality is that very few of them are right

01:36:13.520 and that's that's just the reality that we're having to come to terms with is that there's

01:36:17.200 there's a lot of work to be done a lot of work uh to be done and so um could jd vance be stronger

01:36:24.520 in his rhetoric? Yes, absolutely. Does he need to be supportive of IVF? Absolutely not. But on the

01:36:31.920 whole, if we're comparing, we're not comparing J.D. Vance to Jesus Christ, we're comparing him,

01:36:36.980 like the question, to Mike Pence, who is a better Christian? As far as I'm concerned, J.D. Vance,

01:36:44.120 by light years, is a step in the right direction. Okay, Wes, you want to read the next one?

01:36:50.400 yep joe petruzzi five dollar super chat thanks joe he said is it okay to feel more safe

01:36:56.680 present quotation marks with conservative leadership being in power as christians rather

01:37:01.220 than liberal leadership because i do and i would say yeah absolutely like there is a you are safer

01:37:06.760 you are safer and romans 13 like a good magistrate which yeah more conservatives objectively than

01:37:12.280 than democrats or progressives um are good civil magistrates which means they wield the sword and

01:37:16.980 rule of law which is a terror to the evildoer and they have greater incentive not to be wicked so

01:37:22.580 objectively your town your state especially at the state level it probably is somewhat safer

01:37:27.720 there's a greater sense of like i don't know if i mess up i could get deported or i or bail would

01:37:32.540 not be posted so absolutely uh permissible good okay to say yeah i i feel safer this last month

01:37:40.560 than i felt maybe the couple years prior there are several comments from guys saying it feels like

01:37:44.680 like i can plan like i'm not constantly on guard not having to constantly have my go bag ready or

01:37:50.220 you know whatever it is and yeah yeah i just i saw so many people try to start businesses for

01:37:54.640 example 2021 22 23 24 nothing right as far as traction now is the time though where i think

01:38:01.900 guys are going to build a lot of things that last yeah yeah good uh real quick miss ingham she said

01:38:06.380 thank you for making the playlist on typical manhood and womanhood you are welcome i think

01:38:11.380 it was probably you and a few others. We got that comment a couple of times where people asked if

01:38:16.080 just for the sake of convenience, if we could categorize on YouTube all of our episodes that

01:38:21.600 deal with biblical manhood and biblical womanhood. And so we have taken that feedback and done

01:38:29.300 precisely that. So now if you scroll down, I think the first thing that you'll see is like

01:38:33.160 YouTube has like a curated for you. And then underneath that, you'll have the live stream.

01:38:37.640 This is if you're like on on your computer and then underneath the live stream, then you'll have season one and season two, season three, season four, or actually the opposite.

01:38:50.580 I think it goes backwards. So four, three, two, one of the Friday special.

01:38:53.680 And then underneath that, if you just keep scrolling down, you'll be able to find a whole playlist of everything that we've done up to date that is in regards to biblical womanhood and biblical manhood.

01:39:05.440 while we're on uh that topic um go ahead and do us a favor and subscribe if you're watching on

01:39:12.520 youtube right now if you could subscribe and hit the bell that way you'll be notified every time we

01:39:17.580 uh we do new content and then with this video just to help us out with the algorithm if you could

01:39:22.280 uh please give a thumbs up like the video share the video all that triggers the algorithm to get

01:39:28.240 it out to more people uh michael could you do that last super chat it's from tyler page thanks

01:39:32.800 very much, Tyler, 499. Appreciate it very much. He says, what had more influence on third-wayism,

01:39:38.920 feminism or USAID? Looking forward to the conference. Looking forward to seeing you there,

01:39:44.140 Tyler. That question, I think history is going to be unraveling quite a bit. I think more and

01:39:49.920 more we're seeing, if not directly through USAID, all sorts of left-leaning progressive

01:39:59.040 organizations in the church and outside the church have been propped up by tax money government money

01:40:04.880 grants things like that and there is a vested interest in uh promoting the what the man says

01:40:12.640 to say if you are getting money from that man so right i don't know it's tough to say feminism 1.00

01:40:18.160 has been around for longer so it's more i would say third wayism is very feminine coded too in 1.00

01:40:22.320 that it's not offensive it's not it doesn't take sides it's definitely a result of a politically

01:40:28.100 correct culture that's feminized culture that values inoffensiveness to not be offensive to

01:40:34.860 not offend etc yeah i'll hit this last question um you should be able to do it quick so kobe

01:40:40.820 kobe howard said question what are y'all's thoughts on young women playing sports given

01:40:44.960 the fact most not all tends towards defying a woman's quiet and gentle spirit i would say

01:40:49.340 there's two categories of sports there's volleyball with the family on a beautiful sunny tuesday night

01:40:53.420 and then there's college d1 athlete rowing and lacrosse so sports could just truly be like are

01:41:00.600 we just literally like playing and play competition all of those things especially informally they're

01:41:06.680 just very good for people it's great to get outside it's great to break a sweat for men and

01:41:10.420 women it's good to be active so in that sense recreational maybe some level of minor competition

01:41:16.460 if you're talking in like high school christian school not a big deal sports are awesome if he's

01:41:21.880 asking the college atmosphere even the professional and what it takes to get to a college level

01:41:26.700 athlete even before that in high school and middle school exactly so so those no they would lead

01:41:32.660 towards a competitive male spirit that's i mean that's why men love sports so much masculine 0.94

01:41:37.940 it's masculine it's competition ambition my girls are young you know like seven and five and four

01:41:43.460 and then you know we have a girl who's you know three months old but uh but for you know the the 0.95

01:41:48.920 seven and five and four-year-old, um, they play soccer. Yeah. Like we, you know, we sign them up 0.71

01:41:54.480 for a league at the Y dad is usually their coach, uh, because none of the other deadbeat dads want

01:41:59.940 to do it. And they all, I don't know what I'm doing, but you know, they're, they're, you know,

01:42:04.920 five-year-olds. And so it's, it's, you know, at that age, it's mob ball, you know, it's just like

01:42:08.480 this little crowd of kids, you know, running around chasing the ball. And every now and then

01:42:12.880 like a ball that's not even in play, you know, just kind of finds its way onto the, and then

01:42:16.900 And two or three of them will find that ball and kick it into the wrong goal.

01:42:20.740 And that's soccer.

01:42:22.120 And you guys know my opinion on soccer.

01:42:24.240 Hey, hey, hey.

01:42:26.340 Soccer is a joke of a sport.

01:42:27.760 I'm sorry.

01:42:29.120 Soccer is a lame excuse to try to get grown men to run.

01:42:32.920 That's all it is. 1.00

01:42:33.900 It's just like I know that you want to talk about the Jews.

01:42:39.440 I think there's probably a group of Jewish guys behind the scenes 0.82

01:42:43.280 twiddling their fingers thinking how can we make the the the size of the soccer field even larger 0.99

01:42:48.880 to just to tire out these men so that they're not productive in society um i'm gonna need my

01:42:54.940 final paycheck yeah soccer's soccer's not my favorite sport obviously you know tell us how

01:42:58.980 you really feel um but my point is you know playing for fun and and playing on a team because

01:43:04.320 it's it's one the exercise is good two um getting to interact with other children and and and being

01:43:09.880 a part of a team sport and not just, you know, something in isolation. I think there are benefits

01:43:15.440 with all that, especially for boys, I think more so for boys, but also at some level for girls.

01:43:21.360 But there's a dynamic difference between a girl playing soccer or playing volleyball or this or

01:43:27.260 that, even, you know, an organized team sport at a young age, or even as, you know, a 12 year old

01:43:32.380 middle schooler or even high school that's different than um this is my life um it's to me

01:43:39.920 it's now there's physical components that come in as well but take that out you know remove that put

01:43:44.400 it to the side for just a moment it's the same as i i don't want and when my girls are older i don't

01:43:49.900 want my 17 year old daughter um you know entirely obsessed with a singular focus on on a career

01:43:56.780 outside of the home. I want her predominant ambition to be motherhood, that she would get

01:44:04.320 married, that she would fall in love, that she would find a good Christian man that she loves 1.00

01:44:08.720 and submits to. And that like the women of old, you are truly her daughter, Sarah, a holy woman

01:44:15.320 that you're following in those holy footsteps. If you submit to your husbands and even call them,

01:44:20.840 as Sarah called her husband, Lord. So like lowercase l, not blasphemy, not the Lord Jesus

01:44:28.340 Christ, not deified, but a term of respect, of real submission. I respect my husband. I love

01:44:34.680 my husband. I trust my husband. That's what I want for my girls. So there's a difference in my

01:44:40.980 seven-year-old girl playing soccer two months out of the year on a Saturday morning with her father

01:44:46.380 as her coach at the ymca with some other kids her age and then 10 years from now my daughter wanting

01:44:53.940 to be a professional soccer player and and all of her weekends and all of her extra uh you know

01:45:00.380 time like we don't our family worship has gone to the the wayside you know like all like because

01:45:06.340 all of our evenings and all of our weekends and all of our time is her practicing to be the very

01:45:11.900 best so that she can get in at college and then practicing so she'd be the very best so eventually 0.99

01:45:16.100 she can go pro and uh and and make you know thirty thousand dollars a year and be watched

01:45:21.800 by no one you know like what like what is the point i mean this isn't even like oh well joel's

01:45:27.000 a misogynist he's patriarchal christian no pagan non-christians in our country they even think

01:45:34.060 that professional female sports is a joke right i don't think this is a hot take i don't think that 0.92

01:45:39.880 like like as jd vance would say you know and i you know i don't want that man in my country

01:45:44.440 and i think most of america agrees with me literally most of pagan america agrees with me

01:45:49.820 that that women devoting their lives there and and here's the thing so the last now i'll bring 0.90

01:45:55.080 in the physical component a woman is different than a man in the sense one that she's geared 1.00

01:45:59.880 towards a domestic feminine virtue and and place in the home and nurturing um and and so uh having 0.93

01:46:07.860 a competitive spirit and that being a defining characteristic of her in her adult years and not

01:46:13.520 just as a child, and her younger adult years, I do think pushes against the grain of 1 Peter,

01:46:20.140 chapter 3, that imperishable beauty that's beautiful in the sight of God is the beauty

01:46:27.080 of the heart, which is defined by a gentle and quiet spirit. So it's not feminine. But in addition

01:46:32.340 to that, at the physical, biological level, a woman in her adult years, her young adult years,

01:46:38.440 Those are her prime childbearing years.

01:46:43.180 And so, like, I wouldn't necessarily want her going to school for, you know, seven, eight, nine years with, you know, trying to, you know, take the MCATs and doing a residency and all these things to be a doctor just strictly because of focus and time.

01:46:58.400 But if you add the sports, it's the focus, it's the time, it's the direction being misordered, but it's also the physical component.

01:47:06.760 She is putting on her body a physical, biological strain that is counterintuitive to one of her chief purposes in telos, which is to bear children. 1.00

01:47:21.920 Oh my goodness, I can't believe you said, what about women who can't bear children? 0.92

01:47:24.780 My mom, my mom couldn't bear children, which is why they adopted me. 0.98

01:47:28.780 Okay, so of course there are exceptions.

01:47:30.820 I'm not talking about the exceptions.

01:47:32.240 That's the whole problem with our country.

01:47:33.800 That's the whole problem with the church is that we make the exception the headline, and we make the headline the main point, what applies to the norm, we make that the footnote, right?

01:47:43.280 We make the major the minor, the minor the major.

01:47:45.920 I'm talking about the major right now.

01:47:48.120 Of course there are minors.

01:47:49.320 Of course there are exceptions.

01:47:50.640 But I'm saying in a general sense, in a general sense, a woman, a young woman, postponing marriage and childbearing, just in terms of time and focus, 0.68

01:48:00.400 And in addition to that, putting the highest professional levels of strain on her body that was designed by God to bring forth life into the world, to nurture, to birth children.

01:48:13.000 And she's getting injuries and she's putting wear and tear. 0.56

01:48:16.960 Well, that's strain. 1.00

01:48:17.800 Often women lose their cycle. 1.00

01:48:19.320 So high levels of CrossFit, tennis, other sports. 0.99

01:48:22.200 What will happen is there's so much stress going on that her body will end its cycle, which means it's literally saying, I'm not going to release eggs.

01:48:27.940 that can be fertilized because there's too much strain there's too much stress it shuts down what

01:48:33.420 women are supposed to do yeah and that is a tell you know people say you know that tell us purpose

01:48:39.760 chief end well the chief end of man you know man and woman is to glorify god and enjoy him forever

01:48:45.540 no duh my gosh it's so annoying yes the chief end of all human beings created in the image of god

01:48:54.480 whether they be male or female, is to glorify God and enjoy him forever. Okay. Now, can we ask

01:49:00.920 the obvious necessary question that immediately arises after making that statement, which is how,

01:49:08.480 how men and women are both supposed to glorify God and enjoy him forever? Yes, but not in the same

01:49:15.100 way. The question is, how does a man glorify God and enjoy him forever? How does a woman

01:49:21.460 glorify god and enjoy him forever and this is where verses that people don't like but it's in

01:49:27.800 the bible it's true it's timeless it's immutable verses like first timothy chapter 2 verse 15

01:49:33.320 it says but women will be saved women will be saved through childbearing and i'm perfectly

01:49:38.360 aware that one interpretation of that is the idea of going all the way back um to to you know to to

01:49:46.140 eve and then also you know in a very real sense to the messiah going to mary that woman was saved

01:49:51.440 that it was through a woman that the snake crusher, the serpent crusher, Jesus Christ,

01:49:57.440 was born and ultimately goes all the way back and saves Eve, right? Your offspring. There will be 0.95

01:50:02.460 enmity between the serpent and your offspring, but he, through childbearing, you will give birth

01:50:08.460 to a son down the line, and eventually he's going to redeem you. He's going to atone for your sin

01:50:13.960 and crush the worker of iniquity. He's going to crush the serpent that will bruise his heel, 0.99

01:50:20.560 but he will crush his head. And so, all the way from Eve, and then all the way to Mary,

01:50:24.600 in a sense, being like a second Eve, that through that childbearing, giving birth to Jesus,

01:50:31.560 the Savior of the world, that women and men, for that matter, are saved. However,

01:50:38.220 if that was the chief interpretation, or certainly if it was the exclusive or sole 0.67

01:50:43.520 interpretation, I don't think that it perfectly holds up, because he says, but woman will be

01:50:49.660 saved through childbearing. If it's the childbearing of Mary giving birth to the Messiah,

01:50:54.360 well, that doesn't just save women, that saves men as well. That would be humanity will be saved.

01:50:59.380 Or it could say man, man being a placeholder for both man and woman, just like Genesis,

01:51:04.840 where it says that he created man in his image, male and female. So, man there's

01:51:11.120 standing in for both male and female, mankind. But here he doesn't say, but man will be saved,

01:51:17.460 or mankind will be saved humanity but woman will be saved so if it's speaking of of mankind both

01:51:24.860 men and women alike being saved through childbearing and that childbearing being a reference

01:51:28.220 to the messiah being born through mary that would make sense if it's mankind but it's specific to

01:51:33.420 woman and so the way that i read that is i read it very very much and i posted about this on x

01:51:40.100 not too long ago and the usual suspects were you know screeching into the void but what i said is

01:51:46.060 I think it's reminiscent. It's just a particular female application of the general larger principle

01:51:51.980 that's provided for us in the epistle of James. So, James says that faith without works is dead.

01:51:58.180 So, what does James mean? James means that ultimately you have to work for your salvation.

01:52:03.920 No, he's not saying that we're saved by works. We're saved by faith alone, but faith that saves

01:52:09.820 is never alone. I'll say it again. We are saved by faith alone, but true saving faith,

01:52:15.280 if it really is true faith that saves, it's never alone. It's the faith alone that saves,

01:52:20.760 but that saving faith will always be accompanied by good works. And in the case of woman, 0.93

01:52:26.180 one of those predominant chief good works is motherhood. It is motherhood. But woman will 1.00

01:52:32.860 be saved through childbearing if she continues with faith, right? So, faith is inescapable, 0.99

01:52:38.480 hope and propriety, or faith and love and hope, depending on your translation. So,

01:52:43.380 woman will be saved by the same way men are saved. We're all saved one way, by grace alone,

01:52:48.700 through faith alone in Christ alone, not by work so that no man may boast. It is the gift of God,

01:52:53.440 Ephesians 2. So woman is saved just like man by faith in Jesus. She's saved by faith alone. But

01:53:00.800 if it's true saving faith, it will never be alone. It'll be accompanied by good works. And good works

01:53:06.240 in the case of a Christian woman, one of those good works, one of the predominant good works

01:53:11.220 will be Christian motherhood. It will be bearing children. Are there caveats? Are there exceptions? 0.66

01:53:17.160 Yes, some women cannot conceive. But there's a difference between the woman who cannot bear 1.00

01:53:22.340 children versus the woman who knowingly and deliberately forgoes childbearing because of 1.00

01:53:28.100 feminist sensibilities. That woman, I would say, is actually in danger not of losing her salvation, 0.98

01:53:34.440 but by her bad works and the absence of good works proving that she never has salvation or

01:53:40.700 true saving faith to begin with. So, should we train our daughters as they get older and older

01:53:47.600 and ready to leave and cleave and move out of our homes? And that's a whole other situation. Should 0.97

01:53:52.980 they move out if it's not for marriage? For this reason, a man shall leave his father and mother 1.00

01:53:57.620 and cling close to his wife. Should we have this prolonged intermediate period that stretches for 0.99

01:54:03.300 many people a decade or a decade and a half where they've left father and mother but have not

01:54:08.200 clinged yet to a spouse. They've left one household without starting another. I would say,

01:54:12.560 no, that's not a good idea for men. It wasn't a good idea for me. It's, I think, an even worse

01:54:17.020 idea for women. So table that. Today, we don't have time to get into that. But here's the point. 1.00

01:54:22.000 Should we train our young daughters as they're getting into their teenage years about to leave 0.90

01:54:26.300 the home? Should we be directing them towards spending four years, five years, six years, 0.93

01:54:37.240 maybe a decade of focusing on something besides marriage and family, a career, and a career

01:54:46.620 that not only takes away some of the most pivotal years of being fertile and childbearing, 1.00

01:54:53.440 but also puts an added physical and biological strain on their body to where, yeah, some women 0.97

01:55:00.120 are still able to conceive when they're 35 years old, 37, 38, even 40. That's true. 0.99

01:55:07.240 but if we're training our daughters to be professional athletes or semi-professional 1.00

01:55:12.720 collegiate athletes and putting that much strain to where they're not even going to get married

01:55:17.020 until they're 27, 28, 29, 30 years old, they're not going to be having children until they're 30

01:55:21.640 plus. And that 30 plus, not only is it their older years where they're less fertile, but it's also

01:55:27.400 coming after a decade of hours and hours every single day for years and years and years of

01:55:35.520 of warring against their own physical body through through physical competition at the

01:55:41.120 highest levels that messes with their ovulation cycle and all these things is that is that a

01:55:47.280 conservative patriarchal biblical christian position for fathers to take so the answer

01:55:52.740 to the question is no no i don't think so any thoughts on that no that's great i don't think

01:56:00.220 that's unhinged i think that that like by the way the reason the reason why especially at the

01:56:05.020 collegiate level it has to be offered is title nine through the civil rights act and what common

01:56:10.960 civil rights act though yep yeah all right well thank you guys for the super chats thank you for

01:56:16.840 your questions thank you for your support thank you uh especially for those uh who took the time

01:56:21.640 to like the video if you haven't done that please right here at the end one more time like the video

01:56:26.420 share the video subscribe to our youtube channel click the bell so you'll be notified when we come

01:56:31.660 out with new content and go ahead and follow us on x also we post all of our videos on x as well

01:56:37.640 we usually uh live stream simultaneously both on youtube and x except sometimes x is a little

01:56:45.300 fidgety today happens to be one of those times shut it down he got the yeah he got the call he

01:56:50.040 shut it down um but lord willing as soon as we finish the stream here on youtube we'll take uh

01:56:55.400 the file and we'll upload it on x as well so if you don't follow us on x i would encourage you

01:57:00.160 do that because um you don't get uh any less than youtube if anything you get more you'll get all

01:57:05.440 the full length videos you'll get every clip that we would post on youtube will also be posted on x

01:57:09.580 and you'll get my delightful charming little hot takes where i enrage the internet on a you know

01:57:15.680 almost hourly basis at least daily basis so go over to x our handle is at right response in

01:57:22.860 nathan if you can put the handles up you can also follow wesley todd and michael you should be able

01:57:28.160 to see them on the screen here in a moment but uh for myself it's um it's at right response m

01:57:35.620 at right response m for wesley todd uh we have what is it wesley underscore todd underscore all

01:57:42.460 caps so at wesley underscore todd underscore and then for michael we have at m belch yep

01:57:49.840 at m belch b-e-l-c-h i'm by far the least active of the three men he's the least active but with

01:57:57.080 a little bit of patronizing, a little bit of mockery. A little bit of roasting once the

01:58:02.160 camera shut down. A little bit of roasting. We can get Michael to be posting on X on an hourly

01:58:10.180 basis. All right. Well, thank you guys so much for tuning in. God bless and Lord willing,

01:58:14.100 we will see you this Wednesday at 3 p.m. Central Time.

01:58:27.080 You

The NXR Podcast - March 03, 2025

THE LIVESTREAM - The Idol of Third-Way-ism ｜ Rick Warren, Tim Keller, & Gavin Ortlund

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