The NXR Podcast - THE LIVESTREAM - The Institutional Gatekeepers With No Gate - Special Guest JD Hall

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00:00:16.280 You and I both know that this ministry is willing to talk about things that most ministries aren't.

00:00:21.860 We need this content for the glory of God to reach more people's ears.

00:00:26.800 It was only a matter of time before the democratization of all things came to evangelicalism.

00:00:33.840 Whether it was Elon Musk buying Twitter, entrepreneurs getting rich off of meme coins,

00:00:39.500 or AI giving anyone supposed expertise in whatever field they wanted,

00:00:44.720 we are experiencing a technological revolution that is as disruptive as the printing press.

00:00:51.300 Information, platforms, access, and ideas have been thrown wide open to anyone with the shrewdness,

00:00:58.860 tact, and ambition to wield them. I'm not saying that this is a bad or a good thing.

00:01:04.140 It's just the way things are moving. And no one is taking this harder than the evangelical

00:01:09.140 institutions of the past. Seminaries, universities, parachurch ministries, and church networks that

00:01:16.060 were massively influential in the 1990s and early 2000s still have lots of land money and reach but

00:01:24.180 ultimately despite their millions of dollars and track records that stretch back for decades they

00:01:30.000 are still rapidly losing their influence men with no degrees no pedigree and minimal funds are

00:01:37.020 capturing the hearts of the next generation of right-wing and christian men because they have

00:01:42.680 what the institutions lack, that is, courage. The gatekeepers shriek and wail into the void,

00:01:49.840 but they are gatekeepers now without a gate. This episode is brought to you by our premier

00:01:56.300 sponsors, Armored Republic and Reese Fund, as well as our Patreon members and our faithful donors.

00:02:03.180 You can join our Patreon by going to patreon.com forward slash Right Response Ministries,

00:02:10.500 or you can donate by going to rightresponseministries.com forward slash donate.

00:02:17.920 Join us today with a very special guest, J.D. Hall of Insight to Incite and Protestia

00:02:24.160 to talk about how the populist social revival has finally come to evangelicalism

00:02:29.720 and evangelicalism's once narrowed doors for credibility have been blown completely off the hinges.

00:02:40.500 let's go let's go man i feel like i'm reverting back to my charismatic days that music i was like

00:02:52.840 this is this is profound this cold open the content the verbiage is on point and then i

00:02:58.320 realized no i'm being manipulated i did it to myself it's just the music hopefully the podcast

00:03:04.560 really does have good content uh but that cold open with the music will carry us through at least

00:03:09.260 the first half hour. We are very privileged to have on the show today, Mr. J.D. Hall. Welcome.

00:03:17.340 Hello. Thanks so much for having me. I'm so appreciative of being with you today.

00:03:22.620 Awesome. Well, catch our audience up a little bit because I'm familiar, but even myself,

00:03:29.500 you know, so much of this is timing. We were talking offline a little bit. I get in trouble

00:03:34.920 because I'm two years early. You got in trouble because you were 10 years early. That's a whole

00:03:38.680 nother level of trouble. And so a lot of our listeners, my point is, even myself, I know some

00:03:43.200 of the behind the scenes and things like that. I've heard from you or some of your friends.

00:03:47.380 But there's probably some of our listeners who honestly don't even know who you are and what

00:03:51.560 you've done in the past. Are you comfortable sharing maybe a little bit of your story,

00:03:55.880 a little bit of introduction before we get started on our topic?

00:04:00.060 Yeah, I suppose. I don't want to make it, you know, all about me, obviously, but

00:04:04.720 started protestia in 2021 after pulpit and pen which i'd started in 2012 got censored all over

00:04:13.840 the internet so when covid hit we kept getting strikes on us because we would report the news

00:04:19.100 on the covid lockdowns or on masking stuff like that the efficacy of the vaccines and at the same

00:04:25.380 time we would report on january 6 we would report on on the election in 2020 and they kept banning

00:04:32.880 us from all the different social media platforms and Google AdSense and all the different ways

00:04:37.860 that we kept our website on track financially were just kind of taken out from underneath us.

00:04:43.440 And so at the time when COVID went down, Pulp and Pen had more than 1 million readers every month.

00:04:51.860 And so all kinds of traffic and expense incurred with that. And so we thought, well,

00:04:57.960 without the advertisers, let's see if we can get around the sensors. And so we started

00:05:02.260 protestia but for the last couple years you know I've been raising chickens I live in Kansas and

00:05:10.160 I wanted to get some thoughts out there things that I was thinking about what I was seeing in

00:05:17.780 the news and some insights that I had and I'm glad that the guys at protestia had welcomed me back

00:05:23.760 but not everything I write about is polemics and I'd rather not write that much about polemics

00:05:28.580 honestly. And so because, you know, it's kind of an eclectic collection of different things I'm

00:05:34.760 writing about, I decided to do that at my own sub stack, which is insight to insight. I really

00:05:39.720 didn't think that it would take off the way it has, but its readership has just gone through

00:05:43.640 the roof. And so I'm kind of happy, honestly, with people not knowing who I am. I was pretty

00:05:49.320 reluctant to, you know, come on here for sure. But I've had an interesting experience in the last

00:05:55.220 four months or so since i've been writing because i went more than two years without paying attention

00:06:01.340 to the news i talked to the guys at protestia but we had a deal which was like don't tell me

00:06:06.200 what's going on in the world of polemics like i don't want to hear what russell moore just did

00:06:10.180 i don't need to like um like for myself for my own mental health i don't need to hear

00:06:16.440 about to be the anabuile right right now i don't i don't care about that stuff

00:06:20.760 And so when Trump was shot, I got onto X to find out what the real news was, because I knew I couldn't get that on Fox or CNN.

00:06:31.980 And then I saw you guys and what was happening in evangelicalism.

00:06:36.500 I got to tell you, it tickled me pink.

00:06:38.140 I had no idea what was going on.

00:06:41.280 I never would have thought that the war in evangelicalism really had started, you know, like I saw the fires kindled during the whole time that I was writing and doing polemics.

00:07:00.960 But when I left, the type of engagement that is now commonplace on X was verboten.

00:07:08.160 Like you would just be shunned immediately for having something that could be even closely resemble a serrated edge or an attitude that wasn't approved.

00:07:21.160 And now I show up and everyone is, quote unquote, based now all of a sudden.

00:07:27.260 I had to Google that and find out what that was.

00:07:30.120 and I saw the definition of base and I'm like, I'm pretty sure that describes me. I think I've

00:07:36.220 found my people now. Now, when I come back on X, it seems like I'm the reasonable one.

00:07:41.280 And so, uh, you know, it's been fun to watch and most people, I was kind of, uh, worried about how

00:07:47.280 people would receive me, but for the most part, people have been very kind and understanding and

00:07:52.040 loving. And so I just want to share some thoughts at my sub stack to help guys that are doing right

00:07:57.360 now what i was doing five or ten years ago because you know i've got a lot of war war wounds i've got

00:08:03.200 a lot of i've got a lot of memories and a lot of scars and i might be able to help folks avoid some

00:08:08.380 of the same trouble and pitfalls that i fell into great that's good good introduction uh so again

00:08:14.600 the sub stack if anybody wants to follow along with uh jd's writing which by the way i've read

00:08:19.320 a few of them now and um you're a good writer you're a really good writer i remember even uh

00:08:25.020 I think a couple of people, I guess I shouldn't name them.

00:08:29.140 I don't want to get them in trouble there.

00:08:30.860 But a couple of people who are kind of like-minded, but a little bit more pristine, a little bit

00:08:36.460 more of a statesman than myself.

00:08:40.820 So maybe I shouldn't name them because it might hurt them if people knew that we were

00:08:45.760 talking offline.

00:08:46.880 But they have been reading you as well.

00:08:49.020 And they're like, man, JD is a really good writer.

00:08:51.520 He's cooking.

00:08:52.200 Yeah, you're doing a great job.

00:08:53.220 uh the joke that i i couldn't help but think of uh with having you on the on the show is i feel

00:08:59.440 like your your attitude uh you and i we connected you know recently just in the past few weeks

00:09:04.420 and i've been following you for the past few months on x and you've been following us but uh

00:09:09.460 one of the things that's impressed me is honestly your attitude uh like coming in and seeing all

00:09:15.520 the you know the young based guys whatever you know whatever the kids are saying um doing you

00:09:22.340 know, polemics and speaking into some of these things that you spoke into early on and paid a

00:09:27.180 very, very dear price. And, but your attitude of coming in, observing that, and then, and then

00:09:33.520 basically just being, um, incredibly encouraging, like the way that you'll retweet or share, or,

00:09:39.680 you know, a shed light on, uh, the guys in Ogden or myself, or, you know, other guys who are kind

00:09:45.960 of doing things that, that you yourself have done and paid a great price. And so it made me think of

00:09:51.240 super random but it made me think of um there was a a stand-up with um with dave chappelle

00:09:57.960 it was kind of after he came back from going a little crazy uh talking about him not talking

00:10:04.440 about you but he went to didn't he like go to africa and try to find himself and his

00:10:08.360 true roots is it like dave chappelle had a yeah he had like an mia season for a little while and

00:10:14.680 then when he came back i remember like his first stand-up coming you know coming back into the

00:10:18.440 public square he uh one of his jokes was he was like you know this whole time i was gone i had

00:10:23.120 to watch key and peel do my show and i was like i wonder if jd feels that way it's like this you

00:10:28.880 know i'm coming back in i'm like joel and eric khan and he's like they're doing my show and and

00:10:35.700 yet i haven't sensed that from you even for a second that like in terms of of any frustration

00:10:41.500 it's been like if anything it's like man they're doing similar things and it's working and they're

00:10:47.220 you know, and they're actually making a difference and the discourse has shifted and people are

00:10:52.520 listening. And so I just wanted to say, you know, publicly, I've been blessed not just by your

00:10:57.040 writing and by your input, but I've been blessed by your attitude because that's kind of what we're

00:11:01.400 talking about today. There's a lot of guys who have been in this world, the evangelical world

00:11:06.180 for, you know, years or decades. And yet the problem is that they see younger generation

00:11:13.380 rising up and their immediate response it's like their instinct is to disparage to correct to

00:11:20.920 discourage uh whereas you're coming in and you're like yeah joel's pretty much doing what i did 10

00:11:26.820 years ago and everybody hated me for it and for the record plenty of people hate me too but uh

00:11:32.720 he's like he's making headway and they're successful and i feel like the first time i

00:11:37.480 talked to you, your, your, your general overall reaction was like, I'm watching you do things I

00:11:43.100 did. It's working. And yes, I'm here for it. That's awesome. And so anyways, that blessed me

00:11:49.480 and I'm the one you didn't push, but I said, come on the show. Let's talk about it.

00:11:54.200 Let me tell you, Joel, when I came back, one of the first things I saw was Shepherds for Sale

00:11:59.480 by Meg Basham. And I was so excited to see that in late 2023. I like, I was,

00:12:05.980 i was taking care of myself i had my stuff i had to take care of and my family and reprioritize my

00:12:11.600 life and all that so it was like late 2023 before i worked up the courage to go to protestia to see

00:12:18.140 if they even had a website still because i was talking to those guys i'm like i want to know

00:12:22.760 nothing about polemics so when i saw that they were still kicking tires and lighting fires over

00:12:27.880 there like i was excited about that but i show up on x and i see shepherds for sale and i've

00:12:33.420 I have rarely been happier at any other time in my life. Cause I'm like, who's this lady?

00:12:39.580 Why does she have this book? Why is she written about everything that I've written about? So the 0.77

00:12:43.980 whole time that, you know, I'm, I'm slaving it way, slaving away, trying to, to draw the

00:12:49.820 connections between James Riotti and Ligon Duncan and George Soros and the Kern foundation with

00:12:55.540 Russell Moore. Um, I felt like I was screaming into the abyss, you know, like talking into a

00:13:01.540 vacuum i felt like that meme of charlie and it's always sunny in philadelphia or like i'm looking

00:13:07.540 at these red lines drawn up on the wall right and so i see that basically what happened is the work

00:13:13.720 that i was doing and also jeff maples and john harris and um alan atkinson and tommy littleton

00:13:21.920 like the original ogs fighting the the woke war in evangelicalism before it was called woke

00:13:28.560 i i feel like we what what happened was the information megan put out there was just our

00:13:36.660 info that breached containment we couldn't get our info out because of and i think we'll get

00:13:43.440 into this in the in the program i is my understanding um because of the stranglehold

00:13:49.620 that the gatekeepers had back then on publishing on blog even blogs you wouldn't think that there's

00:13:56.360 a stranglehold on blogs considering anybody can start one believe me there is denominational

00:14:01.860 pressure on guys to shut up and don't talk about that and it's like i i've just sat there in my

00:14:07.860 office uh i you know my office was my armory back home i'd sit there you know with all of my guns

00:14:13.940 and bullets typing away and just praying god let people hear about this this is big stuff

00:14:19.640 and so i was kind of mortified when um you know things went down with me and i thought well this

00:14:24.860 is over. The fight's over. I don't know who else is going to pick this up, but God had a way of

00:14:29.000 doing it. So when I saw Meg or Megan, I should say, she doesn't like being called Meg. When I

00:14:33.900 see Megan out there and all the, and by the way, she, she didn't just take our work. She provided 0.93

00:14:38.480 some of her own research, which was great. And then I see you guys and I'm like, I don't know

00:14:43.420 who these guys are, but man, I'm thankful that they're doing what it is that they were doing 0.50

00:14:48.540 because I was writing about Christian nationalism back in 2017, 2018, because I knew that was coming 0.81

00:14:56.040 down the pike. Like I could kind of see that coming. And so even though I don't see completely 0.98

00:15:01.480 eye to eye with you guys, so far as I know, we've actually never had a conversation about it,

00:15:07.860 about this specific subject of Christian nationalism with you. On so many things,

00:15:12.460 I agree with you. I'm so thankful, sincerely, from me to you. I'm thankful for you. I'm thankful

00:15:18.080 for the Ogden guys. I'm thankful for John Harris and AD and everybody that has been doing the job

00:15:25.420 that I was doing. And I'm so thankful that God's shown me he doesn't need me. And I just want to

00:15:30.280 commend you. And I want you to understand God doesn't need you either because God's doing

00:15:34.500 something bigger than all of us right now. And it's something that I call the progressive social

00:15:38.220 revival. Right. And so we need to get into that. Well said. I'm going to give it to Wes because

00:15:43.740 he's kind of outlined this episode and he's got lots of questions and things for you to riff off

00:15:47.420 of um but that that was kind of your that's one of your uh blogs your entries with uh insight to

00:15:53.380 insight was the uh the social um the social populist revolution the social revival yep so

00:16:00.400 go ahead wes uh lead off a little bit well you you clued into it kind of in your opening there

00:16:05.920 people do not realize about 2010 to 2020 especially and then obviously covid ramped it up

00:16:11.320 but in that period the stranglehold at the broader society levels this was over sites like facebook

00:16:17.200 twitter at the time reddit like i remember i i was all in on trump 2015 2016 and there was a big

00:16:23.820 group on facebook thousands and thousands of guys in support of him it was called god emperor trump

00:16:28.720 that was shut down like pretty quickly and so there was another one big one on reddit was called

00:16:33.860 the donald same thing and got shut down so at a huge kind of conservative movement level as groups

00:16:39.200 are trying to get traction i mean you had mit romney in 2012 so you have this cheesy front

00:16:44.320 face of conservative media of conservative politics of lawmakers and there's guys that

00:16:49.020 are saying we don't like the status quo we want someone like donald trump he bucked the trend but

00:16:53.860 so many guys that could have networked formed patronage networks written books gotten into

00:16:59.040 positions of power been in office supported trump's agenda they were just straight up shut

00:17:03.220 down because all the avenues social media blogs platforms all these things they were it was like

00:17:08.600 whack-a-mole want to pop up bop bop bop bop and it kind of peaked in 2020 and 2021 i mean donald

00:17:16.600 trump after january 6 could not have an x account right and trump by all standards is to all of our

00:17:23.280 left radically so right he couldn't in 2021 have any type of public platform and then something

00:17:30.060 changed at the higher kind of macro level we'll get into evangelicalism in a second but um then

00:17:34.860 2023 elon buys x and suddenly people like you said jd you came back and like people are talking

00:17:41.320 about things that you just could not talk about you couldn't say out loud and there's probably

00:17:45.480 some social effect there where people would where you're kind of expecting people to not even

00:17:49.980 acknowledge or accept you if you're even to voice those things out loud it blows the door off the

00:17:54.460 hinges and so then in the same way at a microcosm in american evangelicalism early 2010 2010s social

00:18:01.820 justice was coming in i have screenshots saved on my phone talking about systemic racism white

00:18:08.060 privilege like it was not 2020 when these things first arrived they'd been in the universities in

00:18:13.440 the media all these things for close to a decade with no resistance martin luther king there was a

00:18:19.180 celebration 50 years of mlk the gospel coalition john piper russell moore tons of other names you

00:18:25.900 would recognize there's like two guys at the time just willing to stand up and say hey martin luther

00:18:31.300 king right was not always cracked up to be jd you probably spoke out against that but john harris and

00:18:36.120 ad roblez was were the other two but that's three guys out of a huge array of evangelical institutions

00:18:43.640 and now it's just commonly accepted knowledge i mean charlie kirk is talking about it hey martin

00:18:47.880 luther king serial adulterer heretical according to his stated beliefs on the trinity and the virgin

00:18:53.600 birth and the resurrection this guy shouldn't be looked up to by anyone and so macro level

00:18:58.760 conservatives just networking getting together face-to-face time forming networks and then also

00:19:03.840 the evangelicalism level things in the last two years in a way it's tough to comprehend if you

00:19:09.400 didn't live it if you weren't trying to do these things in the last 15 years have just been

00:19:13.380 absolutely opened up and so what you're seeing is a quick return to the status quo things aren't

00:19:19.040 artificially suppressed things aren't just tampered with your posts actually have reach that they

00:19:24.720 should get because they're interesting and insightful and people find those ideas worth

00:19:28.260 talking about that's all that's changed and so now everything that's happening right now that

00:19:32.720 we're involved in the connections it's all downstream of they're just it's been democratized

00:19:38.300 you talked about this jd i'd love to hear more from you but um it's been democratized it's it's

00:19:42.620 available to the people for better or for worse yeah what do you think yeah and there's so much

00:19:48.800 history there that has led us to this point and one of the things that i really like doing these

00:19:54.520 days because I wrote about these things so prolifically for, for well more than a decade,

00:19:59.660 closer to 15 years. I have all these articles I remember having written about these things. And so

00:20:05.080 you kind of, as a tongue in cheek joke, I call myself polemic Santa on X. And so somebody will

00:20:10.740 be talking about this, this issue. They think they found a clue and they're looking about six

00:20:15.040 or seven years back trying to piece things together. And so I'll drop a thread of about

00:20:19.900 25 articles that I wrote about that subject back in the day. And so people are reading it now,

00:20:27.480 they might not have been so eager to read it then. But one of the things that I'm convinced of that

00:20:33.420 I've talked a lot about at Insight to Insight is the supernaturality of God, that we are not

00:20:39.100 Socinians. I think that Socinianism has been the zeitgeist of America's left-wing evangelical

00:20:46.220 infrastructure that these guys don't really seem to have a supernatural god that does supernatural

00:20:51.640 things they have a very respectable intellectualized uh religion um although like they they project

00:21:00.000 themselves as reasonable but they don't reason you know one of those things like they're not capable

00:21:04.300 of that and so one of the things that uh i like doing is showing how satan has played a very long

00:21:12.920 game over the course of human events, but so is God. And so, you know, we had the reformed

00:21:18.700 resurgence that began in about 2007, 2008. And that was the product of Ian Murray at Banner

00:21:26.960 of Truth over the course of half a century, printing works from John Owen and Charles

00:21:32.280 Spurgeon, getting out this information little by little. But here's my point. In a similar way,

00:21:38.040 What we see happening right now in the populist social revival through the internet, through all sorts of information now breaching containment out away from the gatekeepers, it goes back very far.

00:21:52.580 So you have the dark ages essentially, right, where the Catholic church and state religion is in charge of virtually everything.

00:22:01.440 Every piece of ideology, philosophy, or theology goes through that main gatekeeper.

00:22:06.440 And then we have the invention of the printing press. And all of a sudden, material can go out from one place to a thousand different places. And it was sort of the first democratization of the church that one man with a printing press was a very dangerous man.

00:22:27.480 And that's how the Protestant Reformation started and also the Enlightenment. Good and bad can come out of that. But as the church enjoyed, the church universal enjoyed the democratization of Christianity through the printing press, sort of that era ended, I would say it ended in 1956 with the development of Christianity Today, which was started by the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association.

00:22:56.160 essentially what that did right around that era right after world war ii virtually all of the

00:23:03.680 major all of the christian publishing houses consolidated and it went from uh lots of different

00:23:11.600 denominations even independent churches having printing presses getting out their material

00:23:18.860 everybody having a newspaper so many different newspapers of different religious organizations

00:23:23.820 to just a few and the publishing houses and the magazines became fewer in number and it would be

00:23:32.980 like you know it wasn't just a denominational publishing house they were publishing material

00:23:37.620 for lots of different organizations the point is uh it went from a lot of information produced

00:23:43.280 by a lot of people a lot of opinions produced by a lot of people to sort of this cannibal

00:23:49.120 cannibalization and monopolizing of the Christian publishing realm to the point that by the time

00:23:57.600 1955, 1960 rolled around, you couldn't get out contrary information at all. It was verboten,

00:24:05.980 banned, forbidden to print or publish material saying, I think this guy's wrong. So you look

00:24:11.600 at the chicanery that Billy Graham was responsible for. If you don't know what I'm talking about, 1.00

00:24:17.540 read ian murray's book evangelicalism divided um the establishment of the world council of churches

00:24:23.040 these these globalist um arms of christianity trying to uh effectively take over the world

00:24:30.220 not for christ but for marxism the reason why those things succeeded is because if you disagreed

00:24:35.600 with the billy graham you know even uh evangelical organization you could pound sand if you disagreed

00:24:43.320 what a denomination was doing there was no way to get that out the internet is then made and even

00:24:49.280 still for 15 years after the development of the internet even though there were people like ken

00:24:55.400 silva and apprising ministries and me uh that were contrarians publishing information that was

00:25:02.740 against the flow of authority and evangelicalism we still censored ourselves there was we submitted

00:25:10.620 to peer pressure not telling people the truth because we would be social outcasts when i

00:25:16.640 published my first article about russell moore um i got a call from frank turk of pyromaniacs

00:25:23.760 saying you're going to ruin yourself you can't do that you can't talk about russell moore you're

00:25:27.320 going to be done wow no like you're going to have no more influence i'm like i don't have any

00:25:31.560 influence anyway i'm on the internet like i'm a guy montana what are you talking about you know

00:25:35.700 black blacklist me from what i'm not a part of anything but his thought was he's a calvinist

00:25:39.820 he's associated with molar you're done and so i think what has happened in the last few years

00:25:46.060 since covid there's not been a technological breakthrough since 2020 right we just we

00:25:52.960 swallowed the red pill we threw off our chains and we're like we're just going to say it and so i'll

00:25:57.420 just give one example and that is when jackie hill perry during the um during the the george floyd

00:26:04.300 days and all the riots uh she had said if you don't know who she is she's like a rapper spoken

00:26:11.260 word artist uh former uh practicing lesbian um she's associated with the gospel coalition

00:26:19.920 she said that the gospel was not the exclusive property of wealthy old white men and so i 0.99

00:26:26.520 responded on twitter the gospel is neither the exclusive property of militant butch black women 0.99

00:26:32.800 And I tell you what, you would have, you would have thought that I set her house on fire. It was, we lost advertisers, advertisers. I lost friends. We lost contributors. I had my good friends in evangelicalism, the more Protestant ones, shaming me for that. How dare you say that? And I'm going, what did I do? And now, well, you guys exist. How's that? Like, everything you do is significantly more controversial than that. You know what I mean? 0.98

00:27:02.060 So a lot of things would be where he'd be like, she has to go back.

00:27:08.900 It's a little bit more nuanced than that.

00:27:10.660 But yeah, no, you're right.

00:27:11.580 The world has changed.

00:27:13.580 The Overton window has shifted radically to where even for us, honestly, there's a lot of things like, well, for instance, this is a good example.

00:27:21.320 But Michael, you were telling me, you know, in a joking manner, but it's partially true.

00:27:25.380 Like you've got a book that you've got lined up, ready to go.

00:27:27.940 and uh had you published it last summer it would have it would have been outside the overton window

00:27:33.900 to the right and how do you think it what do you think it's probably right in the middle now right

00:27:38.020 right now it's it's it's moderate it's a moderate position yeah so things are shifting drastically

00:27:43.700 and and i think you know one of the things that all four of us have in common is that we think

00:27:48.780 that that generally speaking that that is a good thing um the overton window is shifting radically

00:27:54.300 to the right and we think that in general that's a good thing uh there will be plenty of time for

00:27:59.140 conversation and nuances and all those kinds of things in terms of okay but uh it can't mean this

00:28:04.660 or this this over here is too far um but i think what people so quickly forget is um like the guys

00:28:11.720 who are trying right they're already trying to uh to regulate uh right now they're already trying

00:28:18.340 to you know pull guys back in they're trying to you know to uh to kind of tie the young men's hands

00:28:24.880 behind their back to spares them a little bit you know try to get them to chill out i think you know

00:28:29.760 the the major disagreement in a general sense that i would have is i would be guys um the the left

00:28:36.720 the left was doing uh everything was according to their terms um manipulated by their systems

00:28:43.620 their money that like for 40 years like it's like we've had momentum for four months give us a

00:28:50.780 minute give us a minute you know like just get get let us let us win for a second yeah sure we

00:28:56.740 can have some conversations of okay but um this is too far or but you're talking about you're

00:29:03.300 talking about guys my age i'm 30 38 years old um you're talking about young you know relatively

00:29:08.900 young you know white men who um who have been disparaged since the day they were born they've

00:29:15.620 never even known um a time in in western civilization since the day they were born

00:29:21.700 where you know the wind was ever in their sails where you know where the society and culture

00:29:27.440 at large was was actually for them um or even just neutral towards them and not you know radically

00:29:34.620 and unapologetically against them. And so all of a sudden it's like the tide is turning and it's

00:29:40.720 only been a second. One example, and I'm not trying to disparage him. I'm grateful for Doug

00:29:47.040 Wilson and a lot that he's done and I've learned a lot from him. And JD, I'm happy to hear your

00:29:51.660 take on him. I know that you may have some different thoughts, but what I was going to say

00:29:56.180 about Doug is, you know, one of his arguments towards, you know, Ogden and towards me and

00:30:02.020 others is, he said, okay, well, you know, you're right, guys, about some things here, there, you

00:30:08.200 know, yes, you know, Judaism is a problem, or yes, Zionism is a problem, you know, these kinds of

00:30:13.800 things, but you need to, you need to fortify your right flank, right? Because, you know, no enemies

00:30:22.100 on the right, well, does Jesus have enemies on the right? Well, then so do I, you know, and there's,

00:30:25.720 you know, there can be enemies on the left, and there can be enemies on the right, and then the

00:30:29.660 example that he gives and this is where he kind of loses me is you know he's he has said um you

00:30:35.160 know when i when i wrote southern slavery as it was i co-wrote that that book um all of a sudden

00:30:40.400 there were you know a lot of people who were mad at me there were a lot of people who were happy

00:30:43.780 and then there were a lot of people who um were also happy but for the wrong reasons people who

00:30:48.800 you know genuinely racist whatever that means but like let's you know to use actual biblical

00:30:53.820 language, they genuinely had a deep-seated animus towards other races, particularly black people

00:31:01.880 without justification. They just didn't like them. And what Doug was saying is that there was a lot

00:31:08.620 of those guys too kind of came out of the woodwork and they tried to attach themselves to my project,

00:31:13.440 to my book and say, yeah, we're with him. And so anyways, his argument was, he was like, you know,

00:31:18.920 you have to watch both flanks. And so I had to fortify my right flank and make sure that

00:31:23.760 those guys knew that they wanted to be with me, but I didn't want to be with them. And so that's

00:31:28.920 all I'm saying. I'm just saying that, you know, you and the Ogden boys, you know, you got to,

00:31:32.500 you know, with this whole Jew thing, you know, you just, you need to make sure that, you know,

00:31:36.580 because they're, you know, you may not be anti-Semitic, but you say some things that

00:31:40.140 sound anti-Semitic, you're revoiced for Nazis, you're, you know, anti-Semitic adjacent,

00:31:44.340 whatever that is. But you're attracting some guys who really are nefarious. And the only,

00:31:48.140 the last thing i would say is yeah but in the case of doug it's like you did that but but can

00:31:54.840 we just admit that there was like there was like an 11-year gap between southern slavery as it was

00:32:02.300 and then you later on writing you know sin kin and skin or i forget the order you know skin

00:32:07.580 like like you you eventually did fortify your right flank you eventually did come in with the

00:32:12.880 caveats the clarifications the disclaimers you eventually did come in and say hey i just want

00:32:18.000 to be clear. I don't think that slavery inherently, there's something that a whole other issue, the

00:32:23.800 slave trade, the transatlantic slave trade, but slavery in an inherent sense, I just, I don't

00:32:30.260 think that it's inherently evil according to the scripture. And I do think that there were some

00:32:34.340 slave owners in the South, in American history, that were godly men. And that's all I was saying,

00:32:40.400 and I was not saying blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. So yes, you did clarify it. But if we go back and

00:32:45.260 look at the record you were comfortable with not clarifying it for like a decade and then and yet

00:32:52.300 in our case it's like hey guys um you made this statement about judaism and it's it's been 20

00:32:59.720 minutes on twitter without a clarification um that's kind of a long time i know i waited 11

00:33:07.260 years but you know it's been 20 minutes since your you know innocuous tweet about you know

00:33:13.700 APAC, you know, controlling all of our Congress or whatever. And you haven't caveated it. It's

00:33:19.980 been a full 20 minutes. And I think that that's really concerning. So anyways, my point is just

00:33:24.120 to say, I feel like the door has been flung off the hinges. Gatekeeping is incredibly difficult

00:33:31.360 these days. There is something to be said to recognize that, yeah, it is possible. It is

00:33:39.560 theoretically you can have enemies on both sides um that's absolutely possible but for me the big

00:33:44.660 picture i'm trying to look at the 30 000 foot view and i'm like we have had we have had absolute

00:33:50.700 an absolute stranglehold of leftism on the church not just the country but the church for 40 years

00:33:56.460 easy if not longer but 40 years my entire lifetime we have gotten a tiny bit of a win

00:34:03.000 like this isn't even a way hardly it's it's it's just the it's like a real win is just at least

00:34:09.520 within sight you can see finally you can see a light at the end of the tunnel we have we have

00:34:13.540 the the potential of a win in in our country and in the church and immediately you're you're telling

00:34:19.780 me that you might want to temper that you know you don't want to there's a win coming and it'd

00:34:24.940 be terrible if you actually got it you know or you know let's maybe just take one bite of that

00:34:29.620 win, you know, and then still go ahead and swallow a bunch of losses because it's good for your soul.

00:34:34.400 And I'm like, no, we have lost for 40 years. We're just going to get a win and we can sort

00:34:40.900 things out a little bit later on. You waited a decade to clarify that you weren't racist.

00:34:46.580 Maybe I can wait a week before, you know, coming up with a statement that clarifies that I'm not

00:34:51.520 actually anti-Semitic. Is that crazy? What do you think, JD?

00:34:55.140 well there's a lot to be said for the way that our generation um looks at at dougs and i'll get

00:35:06.820 into that in just a moment let me go back to uh just just for a moment kind of the environment

00:35:11.500 of what's happening right now so people understand what's happening in evangelicalism contextually

00:35:17.600 so far as history is concerned um back when i was doing pulpit and pen back in the old days we dealt

00:35:24.660 with the group that we call the tone police where everything that you said uh was uh held up to

00:35:31.660 scrutiny to see if you've broken the 11th commandment which is not being nice enough right

00:35:36.800 and so people would always argue jd it's not what you say it's how you say it and at some point i i

00:35:45.160 did an article and i i said something along the lines of in a dearth of truth you don't complain

00:35:52.180 about what form the moisture comes meaning that like so if you're a farmer out on the prairie

00:35:58.140 one of the expressions that that you give from time to time is moisture is moisture so you like

00:36:03.900 moisture in the ground right you need it for your crops you need it for your farm so you know a

00:36:08.720 farmer's not going to complain about snow or dew or fog or ice or sleet moisture is moisture well

00:36:16.060 in our culture, especially in church culture, there's been a drought, a dearth of truth.

00:36:23.400 And people are right now so excited to finally be able to drink down unfiltered truth,

00:36:31.020 not filtered by gatekeepers for sure. Just tell me the truth, even when it's sarcastic,

00:36:37.700 maybe a little bit ugly, possibly insulting, not the most polite language, not diplomatic,

00:36:42.660 not tactful. The man who loves truth, the man who knows truth when he hears it is appreciative

00:36:50.160 for having heard it. And those guys, the ones who've been lied to by their professors at seminary

00:36:58.740 and Bible college, their Sunday school teacher, their pastor, their mom and dad, maybe it's about

00:37:03.180 something like MLK because a lot of people were thinking during the MLK 50, you know, conference, 0.90

00:37:08.320 Why are we venerating a man who denied the deity of Christ, who plagiarized his thesis, who didn't believe that Jesus rose again from the dead, who was clearly a Marxist, a homosexual and a whoremonger? 0.80

00:37:21.220 Why are we doing this? 0.86

00:37:22.260 So it's like when somebody comes along and just says it, I don't know.

00:37:26.540 Like, I'm thankful.

00:37:27.920 And I think that what you guys have tapped into is there's a lot of people who are like, just lay it on me.

00:37:32.920 Just tell me the truth.

00:37:34.220 So far as Doug is concerned, what really shocked me was reading the Antioch statement as he talked about accepting, believing the received accounts, unquote.

00:37:47.680 And because I'm thinking about his slavery book and I'm like, the reason why I've had so much affinity for Doug, one of the many reasons is because he was one of the only people during that timeframe notable.

00:38:03.060 I wouldn't necessarily call him notable, but to us he is, right, in our niche of evangelicalism.

00:38:08.520 The only notable figure to say, you know, every slave could have been freed, could have been bought, and then freed by the government for like one-third of what it costs to fight the Civil War.

00:38:22.500 And that's really what they were mad about.

00:38:24.420 And so war is probably not good.

00:38:26.060 We might have freed the slaves a different way.

00:38:28.180 and he he took as you said a decade of heat over that right right and so now i'm looking at him

00:38:36.440 for his revisionist history what changed yeah right what changed all of a sudden because

00:38:42.280 the same faux pas that you broke um by questioning the post-war consensus is the same one that he

00:38:51.080 broke you broke the same rule and questioning uh the purpose of of the civil war so here's what

00:38:57.720 happened this generation doug james and others they taught us certain principles that we made

00:39:06.760 the mistake you me other folks that are contrarian we made the mistake of believing them and and then

00:39:14.720 we just plowed forward with it and they're like hold on hold on you're going too far

00:39:18.760 well i experienced that and so did a lot of other guys during the reformed resurgence because i was

00:39:26.140 born and raised Southern Baptist, and inerrancy was drilled into my head, right? God's Word said

00:39:31.680 it, that settles it. The Bible's true from N to Amen, from Genesis to Revelation. That's the way

00:39:38.100 it is. God doesn't give apologies for His book, believe it, because the Bible says it. And then

00:39:43.840 we went from the traditional church that taught us that into a circle that, I don't know, read us

00:39:51.620 Romans 9. And so we're introduced to the doctrines of grace in Scripture, and we come home believing

00:39:58.460 it. And our parents, our pastors, that generation is just livid at us. It's so kind of funny to me

00:40:04.860 that many of the listeners to your program are in the age bracket. They don't remember it ever

00:40:10.000 having been controversial to be a Calvinist, but for some of us, it was a big deal. And so they

00:40:17.240 think that they've lost their children to this heresy and we don't understand them well it's a

00:40:24.160 true generational divide because we're like you taught us to believe the bible no matter what

00:40:28.080 romans 9 says what romans 9 says what's wrong with you and they're looking at us going no what's

00:40:32.980 wrong with you and that's where we're at i think these guys did a service to us and a service to

00:40:39.160 church and a service to christ by teaching us certain principles um like sometimes you take

00:40:45.100 no quarter no matter what and you burn bridges and you're willing to take uh pick up your cross

00:40:51.260 and follow after christ even if it's unpopular and it seems like we've done that and they've

00:40:59.200 become our our biggest critics and i can't help but think joel people who have prided themselves

00:41:08.240 on being the lone central contrarian figure don't like the thought that there's a whole crowd behind

00:41:16.820 them who are just as contrarian and now they're no longer the lone surviving hero but there are

00:41:23.020 many many more and i i can't help but think that there's a little bit of rivalry and jealousy

00:41:28.820 because hey i i've been the guy all this time now there's a bunch of people following me and i think

00:41:34.680 From our perspective, we're like, the whole goal of you leading was not to stand out right.

00:41:41.240 Wasn't the goal of you leading having people follow?

00:41:45.560 Well, we followed.

00:41:46.880 So let's keep going or get out of our way.

00:41:51.360 Yep.

00:41:52.180 Well said.

00:41:53.160 Let's go to our first commercial break and we'll be right back.

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00:43:35.680 All right, welcome back.

00:43:37.380 JD, I just want to keep going right on that thread that we had leading up into the break and really getting into the evangelical institutions.

00:43:44.060 And we talked about Doug Wilson.

00:43:45.200 We talked about James White.

00:43:46.220 i think what's really interesting and you were hinting at it there is they were the original

00:43:50.120 disruptors one of the reasons james white has the platform he's had he's obviously built it over

00:43:54.820 i mean probably 15 years or so that he's been debating and writing books and everything like

00:43:59.780 that but he's one of the early adopters of the internet so back when people were recording

00:44:04.200 cassette tapes i remember in the early 2000s like recording my grandpa who's a baptist preacher on

00:44:08.580 cassette tape and mailing them out to people who missed it so that was the norm and maybe if you

00:44:12.900 were lucky you got a television spot that was if you were really really good but those were your

00:44:17.040 two options locally distributed physical cassette tapes or television and then the internet comes

00:44:22.060 along with the internet internet programming internet broadcast and james white and some

00:44:26.500 other guys were very early adopters and being early then you get the advantage you're building

00:44:31.820 when no one else is building alongside you so in that way probably way back in the day there were

00:44:37.040 broadcasts institutions all of these things they were like we love the status quo we have millions

00:44:42.900 and millions of people tuning in because tbn or this side of the other we're your only option so

00:44:47.600 they were the original disruptors and it's same thing jd you mentioned this in your article it's

00:44:52.620 called the keepers with no gate really good worth reading but you said for example in presbyterianism

00:44:57.500 doug wilson basically carved out the crec for a home for federal vision kind of outside the

00:45:03.400 traditional Presbyterian structure, disrupting the structure that existed of, obviously,

00:45:08.760 you don't have bishops in a Presbyterian system, but the Presbyteries and the General

00:45:12.480 Assemblies.

00:45:13.420 So he ran around that.

00:45:14.540 So they were the original disruptors, and there's many, many others, of course, but

00:45:17.940 now it's come time for that system to be disrupted.

00:45:20.560 And I think in many ways it's accelerating.

00:45:22.640 You can imagine, like you said, Billy Graham and evangelicalism of the 70s and 80s disrupting

00:45:27.480 maybe the more traditional structure that was existing pre-war, pre-World War I and

00:45:31.160 world war ii billy graham and and the uh it's not great awakening what was it kind of called

00:45:35.880 the crusades billy graham crusades yeah those created a a setup in an evangelical ecosystem

00:45:41.800 that disrupted what came before and then came the emergent church movement and then quicker and

00:45:46.120 quicker quicker so this is the latest turn and the point is it's happening quicker and quicker

00:45:50.540 and and those that disrupted the first time they were the first to it they did it 10 years ago

00:45:55.800 now they're being disrupted and that's what's that's what's so difficult to swallow like you

00:46:00.940 mentioned, aren't you leading to see other people follow and do that? But it's so hard when you're

00:46:05.980 Saul and people are singing, Saul is slayed his thousands. And then they sing about David. It

00:46:10.860 takes a lot of effort as a man, as a leader, as someone who's dedicated their life to a certain

00:46:15.940 work to be lauded for what you did well and good, but then to watch someone just go on and excel

00:46:21.820 far in front of you. And this isn't just particularly about any two individuals, but it's

00:46:26.200 it's seminaries it's it's publishing houses they're atrophying they're they're drying up

00:46:32.460 they have money they have campuses they have capital liberty university the the moral majority

00:46:38.720 jerry falwell so much and you would think this will power them for a hundred years i mean

00:46:44.280 christianity today they were the only game in town for decades you would think oh it'll always be

00:46:50.800 how it's been and then all of a sudden it goes away and that is so difficult love to hear your

00:46:57.460 thoughts on this jd so difficult to see the next generation come in and say we're going to build

00:47:01.900 and we're going to grow but we're not just stopping where you stopped we're not content to

00:47:05.920 labor for 20 years to get our breakout session at the conference or get our spot on the bible

00:47:12.180 commentary series no we're just ultimately not going to play that game at all thoughts well let

00:47:18.100 Let me let yeah, let me explain to you a little bit of what's going on there, because it seems like like Doug, those who have been most controversial in the past are the ones that are attacking you the most for being too controversial.

00:47:29.760 It's it's very simple. And I got it to the many years that I've done what I've done.

00:47:34.080 And that is these these guys that were the the flavor of controversy in the day, much to their credit, they took a lot of arrows.

00:47:44.480 They took a lot of heat, but they could only go so far and they wouldn't cross this line.

00:47:50.340 Whatever it was, it was the taboo that couldn't be crossed or else they'd go from being blackballed at half the evangelical conferences to all of them.

00:47:59.880 And then here you come along and you go one step further than they did.

00:48:04.940 Here's a truism, right?

00:48:06.500 So as soon as I say it, you'll realize that it's true.

00:48:08.960 most of the time when someone says you've gone too far what they mean is very simply you've

00:48:15.880 gone further than they would have it's not as though you've really gone too far it's just you've

00:48:21.060 taken an extra step that they wouldn't take it's in the same direction it's just they've been held

00:48:27.420 back and frankly i don't think it's necessarily cowardice per se it's just that it's beyond the

00:48:34.460 ebenezer it's it's beyond the it's beyond the boundary line of that particular era in which

00:48:40.860 they they worked you've gone a step further so in their head it's like either they could have

00:48:48.560 gone further further than what they did and they chose not to and they don't want to think that

00:48:52.380 that they didn't go far enough so they're going to have to then rationalize that to themselves

00:48:57.320 by saying well you've gone uh too far so i i would probably blow your mind at the

00:49:04.720 the names that i could drop of those who chastised me severely some of my more prominent friends

00:49:12.840 because i i made a habit of referring to to bd anabwile as ron burns because that's his name

00:49:20.080 that's the name his mother gave him yeah um he's he chose to self-identify as to bd not

00:49:26.940 when he became muslim but when he became a black nationalist and my argument was he's still a black

00:49:32.480 nationalist i don't use preferred pronouns i don't make stuff up i'm gonna call him ron burns and i

00:49:39.460 had i mean the biggest uh names and conservative evangelicalism say that's just too far you can't

00:49:47.280 that um well again if if if you woke up after years of slumber um you know and and stumbled

00:49:57.200 into onto x you'd say what's the big deal everybody's doing it now the point is that

00:50:02.500 was a line that they wouldn't cross that when you do they automatically think that

00:50:08.760 um you've you've done something wrong when you build an audience uh and and a following for

00:50:17.920 yourself based upon you being cutting edge of your car you know you're getting close to the line

00:50:25.100 of social more of the overton window of acceptability

00:50:30.100 you kind of have in your head people follow you because you're edgy and if somebody's edgier

00:50:37.060 they're going to take your your your following from you and i it did not surprise me at all to

00:50:43.280 discover that you guys were having heat from the places that you were getting heat because i knew

00:50:51.340 that there were certain apologists that the moment i overtook them in downloads on sermon audio

00:50:57.420 that's when i could just set my watch and say they're going to do a podcast about me

00:51:04.060 um that was sort of what incited i think most of that criticism and so in terms of the gatekeeper

00:51:13.900 even though you can't say doug wilson i'll just use him as an example you can't say he's like

00:51:19.940 a mainstream gatekeeper he's on the edge himself he's on the periphery himself there has still been

00:51:25.800 this self-policing among evangelicals and conservative evangelicals there's probably

00:51:31.200 that policing in every niche of online evangelicalism. And if you come up through the

00:51:38.660 ranks and they didn't help you, you weren't drafting on them. You weren't holding yourself

00:51:44.140 to their coattails. That's how things are ordinarily done in institutionalism. That's

00:51:49.480 credentialism. It's you've been a psychophant enough years for this apologist, for this preacher,

00:51:54.980 for this pastor eventually you'll get a breakout session at this conference you'll you'll get uh

00:52:02.200 you know to to be a a guest on the podcast then you'll get a name for yourself you guys come out

00:52:09.080 of nowhere why now i could be wrong and i have been called a conspiracy theorist the alex jones

00:52:15.560 of evangelicalism all that but hear me out i think the reason why you guys got a following out of

00:52:20.460 nowhere, is either you're the recipients of some deep pockets of dark money somewhere, probably

00:52:25.660 from Indonesia or Kenya, you know, sub-Saharan African, if I had to guess, or you had ideas,

00:52:36.080 thoughts, and perspectives that resonated with evangelicals because they couldn't hear that

00:52:42.220 anywhere else. And in evangelicalism and Christianity in general, we like to amen,

00:52:48.000 say, I agree with that. The reason why you amen a preacher in traditional fundamental Christianity

00:52:54.740 is because he's saying something that's edgy enough, you're worried somebody in the congregation

00:52:59.400 is going to get mad at him. You know that he's stepping on toes. So the reason why we amen

00:53:04.080 traditionally, historically, the reason why is because we're providing something audibly for him

00:53:09.120 to hear to say, I agree with you and I got your back. Don't worry if you get people mad. I've got

00:53:13.440 you're back on this one, pastor. Well, they want to amen people who want to say things that,

00:53:19.040 you know, Doug Wilson isn't going to say. You're certainly not going to hear it on the other end

00:53:23.500 of the spectrum of the gospel coalition. And so the gatekeepers realizing that there's only so

00:53:29.560 much of the pie to go around, so they think. I think it's a fallacy on their part. There's only

00:53:35.260 so many donors, givers, supporters. It fosters a real contempt. That's why we have very much

00:53:42.260 as circular firing lines so to speak so you've got g3 and you've got uh you've got grace community

00:53:49.660 church and grace to you um you you've got the dividing line alpha omega apologia uh you've got

00:53:57.620 clouds without water uh one passion you'll founders ministries you only have so many groups

00:54:04.020 that solicit funds and have an online following we've never been big we i mean our branch of

00:54:09.900 evangelicalism reformed protestant evangelicalism we've never had a ton of parachurch ministry so

00:54:15.380 there's not that many and i honestly i it's it's it's a it's a damning accusation but i believe

00:54:22.420 it's accurate because i've lived it for for 15 years um there is a competing uh competing

00:54:32.120 evangelical warlords trying to hold on to their fiefdoms and and their donors you could even see

00:54:39.100 that in steve lawson's uh fall from grace you could see a little bit of competition among those

00:54:44.780 parachurch ministries fighting for who they knew were going to be dis disaffected donors to one

00:54:50.080 passion trying to get out ahead of it hey you know they're not going to be giving to them anymore

00:54:54.860 maybe they can give to us and so what i you know you haven't asked me for advice it's not why you

00:55:00.180 brought me on the program but if i could just give some unsolicited advice it's this the notion of

00:55:05.280 there only being so many people who care, only being so many supporters and hearers is nonsense.

00:55:14.180 You know why? We're Christians. We bring converts. God does anyway. We preach the message.

00:55:19.780 We have to believe that if we share the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ and we preach the

00:55:25.740 full counsel of God's word between those two things, disciples of Christ are going to want

00:55:31.460 to check out what it is that you're saying and they're going to support that one thing that all

00:55:38.260 of these various groups that i've mentioned these warlord fiefdoms and reformed evangelicalism one

00:55:43.580 thing they have they all have in common is they're not evangelical in the slightest they rarely talk

00:55:49.340 about jesus they're really not out there attempting to make new converts they're beating more drums

00:55:54.540 over things that may be very important, but are not evangelism per se. And so they're used to the

00:56:01.520 type of ministry growth that most churches have, so far as church growth is concerned, which is

00:56:08.840 just fish moving from one fish bowl to the next. You know, a member is going to move from one

00:56:14.520 church to the next. That's where most church growth comes from. It's not like megachurches

00:56:18.680 are having a sea of converts. They're just sucking people like a vacuum cleaner out of

00:56:23.240 all these small churches that don't have bread and circuses on sunday so my point is this this

00:56:28.860 world is white under harvest what's happening right now in the populist social revival i think

00:56:34.000 is legitimately from god the holy ghost he's doing something all of these people are coming

00:56:39.280 to the same conclusions that they've noticed christians have come to on the transgender issue

00:56:44.280 they know it jumped a shark you got people who were willing to use preferred pronouns a few years ago

00:56:49.240 say, okay, it's a little bit too much. Can we not have a kid climb onto the lap of the drag

00:56:53.240 queen at the library? It's pushed them too far. And so they noticed that where they stand on 0.99

00:57:00.280 abortion, environmentalism, the importance of a small and limited government, why homosexuality 0.59

00:57:09.120 kills cultures, that women maybe really don't fly a plane as well as men. They're coming to 0.98

00:57:15.480 all these conclusions and they're searching for for the the genesis the origin of their worldview 0.98

00:57:22.620 why is it that people that think climate change is a load of crap are the same people that think 0.99

00:57:29.600 you shouldn't kill babies in their mother's womb and they're discovering the christians all share 0.99

00:57:35.800 these views and so they're searching um they're searching because god the holy ghost is doing

00:57:42.840 something. And so that's the people I would recommend that you or anybody listening that

00:57:49.020 wants to foster a movement and take it somewhere, go reach the lost people. They're searching. And

00:57:55.380 now we know innately, they don't do that of themselves, right? No one seek it. No one

00:57:58.980 searches after God until God starts doing something. And we have every indication in

00:58:03.740 our culture, he's doing something. It's very exciting to be doing what you're doing because

00:58:09.100 You have the opportunity to do what these other ministries have not done, and that is actually reach people with the gospel.

00:58:20.200 Yeah, it does seem as though there is a ripe harvest.

00:58:23.920 It's just not where many thought it was for all these preceding decades.

00:58:30.740 They thought it was the cultural elite, the elites, you know, coastal elites.

00:58:35.240 They thought it was going to be in Manhattan.

00:58:36.920 They thought it was going to be in L.A.

00:58:38.780 They thought, you know, that this harvest was going to be among all the hoity-toity, you know, well-to-do liberals, you know, people who are center-left or maybe even, you know, all the way progressive.

00:58:50.260 And then God finally is doing something and, I mean, you can see it.

00:58:56.040 It's not even just, you know, I mean, it bears out even, you know, in statistics.

00:58:59.880 It's not just a personal opinion.

00:59:01.960 And there was an article that was just released the other day that said, you know, that there's, you know, a radical shift of young, predominantly young white males that are going back to church.

00:59:16.140 This was New York Times.

00:59:17.040 This was New York Times.

00:59:18.480 Yeah.

00:59:18.700 So even those who hate Christ are noticing it.

00:59:21.320 But my point is that it seems like Big Eva's upset about it because they've been talking about revival forever, but they didn't want the young white men to be, the revival to be affecting them. 0.95

00:59:31.960 They were hoping that it would be a young black woman, you know, and preferably, you know, it would be even better if she was a lesbian.

00:59:40.280 You know, if it was a bunch of black, you know, young lesbians coming to Jesus, Christianity today would be, they'd be stoked.

00:59:47.500 But the fact that it's a bunch of right-wing young white males, then, you know, people aren't so excited. 0.89

00:59:53.940 I'm excited.

00:59:54.400 Joel, if I could pipe in on that issue, and I know we're up against the clock or whatever,

01:00:01.800 it'd be remiss of me if I didn't get this out, because I want to explain to people

01:00:05.540 who are not sold out lock, stock, and barrel on Christian nationalism, or they may not be in

01:00:12.980 complete agreement with you guys on everything. I think they're looking at you kind of as a

01:00:16.800 phenomenon. I'm sure people tune into every podcast saying, okay, what's the big deal with

01:00:21.260 these guys and they're listening um this is one of the most important things that you can

01:00:25.660 understand about why this movement why um joel and you guys and then eric khan and the ogden guys

01:00:32.820 and both sets of wolves this is why young men care and it's not because they're andrew tate fans all

01:00:38.060 right right the north american mission board made a conscientious choice in my 2009 2010

01:00:46.240 in their SEND program, NAM, in the SBC, to focus almost exclusively on inner city urban ministry,

01:00:55.220 urban church planting. If you're rural, if you're in the country, you know, you're not important

01:01:00.940 at all. Bodhi Bauckham had a very good sermon about this, where he's like, if you want to

01:01:06.160 preach to rural people in America, you're not important. Like, you're wasting your life

01:01:13.420 if you're doing that and so evangelicalism has adopted the dei thing you've got the southern

01:01:19.440 baptist convention pastor conference um a few years ago literally employ a racial quota system

01:01:26.140 to determine who would be speaking there right so um i think what's happened in america is

01:01:34.300 not not evangelicalism just for a moment i'm talking about all of america you have so much

01:01:40.100 attention on diversity that you have a very disaffected group of people that are that are

01:01:45.660 young white males especially young white rural males where they're not important they're invisible

01:01:53.680 no one cares about you you're not going to give a help get a helping hand to go into college 0.78

01:02:00.340 nobody's worried about how you're doing young men are blowing their brains out because it's pretty

01:02:06.440 clear nobody cares about them and if that's not the case perception becomes reality they still

01:02:12.260 feel that way for some reason and i think there's a reason they're feeling that way

01:02:16.000 well that same type of thing has happened in evangelicalism where frankly all you have to do

01:02:22.500 to become prominent in conservative evangelicalism especially online i'm going to give you the i'm

01:02:28.960 going to give you a tip to have a big following and lots of listeners and lots of opportunities

01:02:33.320 and get lots of stage time and spotlight here it is if you want to be prominent in online uh 0.81

01:02:39.960 conservative evangelicalism just be black that's all you have to do um you're going to get roles

01:02:47.180 and speaking gigs and you're going to you're going to be able to rub shoulders with some of these

01:02:50.560 guys well you know what the white guys noticed that and they're like this guy kind of seems like 1.00

01:02:56.980 an idiot. He tweets nonsense half the time. And yet he seems to be like, I think a lot of people 1.00

01:03:04.260 are looking at what's happening. They're saying, don't tell me that conservative evangelicals don't

01:03:08.160 do DEI too. We don't, we do it also. And so when somebody comes along and says, I care about young

01:03:19.260 white men, I care about, I care about, I care about rednecks. I care about hillbillies. I care 0.96

01:03:25.480 about the type of people whose backs are strong enough that we've put this country on it for the

01:03:30.840 last hundred years and they've carried the weight of the rest of us i care about them and it's not

01:03:39.380 as though someone has to be racist to have that appeal to young men especially young white men

01:03:47.840 or young rural white men they just have to actually notice their existence right because

01:03:52.880 they're so used to it being ignored and part of what that you're absolutely right and part of what

01:03:58.240 that requires though is you don't have to be racist but you do have to know to notice their

01:04:02.280 existence there being the young white males you do have to notice race you don't have to be racist

01:04:08.320 now granted i even the word we've talked about how we don't particularly like it i think you

01:04:12.740 would agree we don't like you know more recent innovations that are used you know within a

01:04:18.160 leftist framework and Marxist framework to demonize, you know, entire, you know, all of

01:04:23.900 Christendom and all of the West and, you know, everybody else. So, you know, but, but the point

01:04:28.280 still stands, you know, my point. So what, you know, there are better words to use, but what

01:04:32.740 we're doing is we're not just by noticing them, the young white male, Christian male who lives

01:04:38.620 in flyover country in Kansas, such as yourself, and is raising kids and chickens, guys like you,

01:04:44.660 guys like us by noticing them what we are also noticing is we are we are noticing race and we're

01:04:52.060 noticing um that uh yeah the the dei is not just something that's happening among the coastal elites

01:04:59.420 it's not just something that's happening at the ivy league schools of harvard you know in columbia

01:05:03.580 it's but it's also it is something that is happening even in you know allegedly conservative

01:05:09.600 churches within evangelicalism um we we've all kind of we've all experienced that we've all

01:05:17.520 to varying degrees and in varying ways but we we've all kind of said like yeah i i saw my friend

01:05:23.880 you know make more headway because he was black or or i saw you know so and so's book get um way

01:05:32.500 more sales and way more attention um because it was a chick and she was blonde and you know

01:05:40.820 relatively pretty and you know and i've watched and like we've all seen enough of that and and

01:05:46.540 and so if somebody just comes along and just says it and just says out loud hey this is um

01:05:52.740 di it's not just you don't just need to check you know make sure that you have a an old white male

01:05:58.880 pilot you know when you're flying delta uh di stretches a lot further than that um it's in our

01:06:05.000 churches it's with the eldership it's because the conservative and i use you know for the listener

01:06:10.040 you know i'm using the quotation marks the alleged conservative such as matt chan they told us this

01:06:16.120 isn't conspiracy they literally told us that they would choose the less qualified individual if they

01:06:23.640 met the the dei quota and so for me like it's like well who radicalized you well i i was in

01:06:32.100 x-29 i joined x-29 as a young white man that that'll do it you know i and and not late stage

01:06:40.440 not 2020 when did you know i joined in 2014 i should have known better because it was right

01:06:45.940 around the time they were kicking out driscoll and yes i think driscoll had some problems some

01:06:50.440 but not the, not many of the ones that they were talking about. Um, I think there were some

01:06:56.120 different things, but anyways, um, here, here's so, this is so funny. I'll say it out loud. People

01:07:01.260 get mad, but I'm going to say it. Um, I feel like, have you ever seen the means where there's a guy

01:07:05.820 and he's like looking through the blinds, looking out the window and he looks sad, you know, like

01:07:09.120 he's like, like a, like, oh man, I'm stuck in here. And then there's somebody like outside who's

01:07:14.460 just, you know, carefree and just living their best life now, Joel Osteen style. Um, that's how

01:07:20.080 I feel in the Reformed Longhouse sometimes looking out at Driscoll, right? Like if I see one more 0.99

01:07:25.480 tweet from Gabriel Hughes about how Martin Driscoll isn't qualified for ministry, meanwhile he's

01:07:31.580 shaking hands with the president, guys. Do you know how much of a joke we are, the Reformed 0.89

01:07:38.560 Church? Can we just be honest about that for a second? We are the smallest niche of a niche of 1.00

01:07:44.280 a niche of a niche of a niche a subcategory of a subcategory of a subcategory um continuing to

01:07:50.640 talk about why mark driscoll's not qualified from something 12 years ago that we weren't even behind

01:07:57.060 the scenes and and don't we're not even privy to what he actually did we don't even know what

01:08:02.760 happened meanwhile 12 years have passed by the dude is now shaking presidents uh shaking hands

01:08:09.260 with the president and making real effects in the world and but we're over here consoling

01:08:16.140 ourselves so that we can sleep at night in the midst of our radical insignificance but telling

01:08:20.800 ourselves that we're doctrinally pure i i yeah so that just that dog won't hunt i've written

01:08:29.240 probably a hundred articles at least on paul white at at the last thing real quick jd my point is

01:08:37.440 go ahead back to the di well who radicalized you acts 29 did it so to answer what so i joined right

01:08:44.040 as martin driscoll was being kicked out i got side uh tracked for a second but then i left right

01:08:48.680 after eric mason wrote his book woke church and i talked about it i didn't just immediately pull

01:08:53.560 out i talked to guys in my area and all of them disagreed with me and the area lead for san diego

01:09:00.820 at the time um immediately started criticizing but like made it about you know he's like well

01:09:06.280 well, actually, I've been meaning to tell you, I've never mentioned it before until you criticized

01:09:09.940 Eric Mason, but now meaning to tell you I'm concerned about your character and this, that,

01:09:14.040 and the other. And so then, yeah, I was like, and we're done. We're done. So it was those kinds of

01:09:20.900 things that eventually, and it's not just me, I'm just, you know, in a lot of ways, I am

01:09:25.380 insignificant, but it's a whole generation of Christians in flyover country who've been passed

01:09:32.320 up just like the flights uh the flight path passes them over so has evangelicalism so has all the

01:09:38.520 opportunities so has their vocation so has you know their employer everything has passed them

01:09:43.780 over and eventually people revolt and and if that people that's being passed over by the church by

01:09:51.480 politics by economically at every single level passed over again and again and again if they

01:09:55.940 also happen to be the majority that's when that's when a country is done messed up when when when

01:10:01.940 the people you've been disparaging are actually the majority people and stronger well-armed

01:10:09.020 intelligent um and and they're the heritage historic people who built the country and they're

01:10:16.740 also have the numbers they're still the majority that is just yeah that is a recipe for that's a

01:10:23.700 recipe for a donald trump presidency that's a recipe for a joel webin podcast that's a that's

01:10:28.440 a recipe for a lot of things. And here we are. JD, sorry. I brought up Paula White because you

01:10:34.820 were talking about Driscoll and, um, you know, Gabriel Hughes and others complaining about him.

01:10:39.980 And like, yeah, I know all about Driscoll and, and like, again, that's one of the things that

01:10:44.720 we did at Pulp and Pen was cover that so extensively. I've written about Paula White

01:10:47.880 at least a hundred times, if not a thousand, it might actually be closer to a thousand.

01:10:51.260 you can you can see all those articles still you know still up and so uh you know the other day i

01:10:58.960 see tom buck uh railing about paula white and i understand she is a heretic of the highest order

01:11:06.160 i'm like maybe not maybe not like mike cosper bad but she's still pretty bad

01:11:11.700 i appreciate that that's why i have you on the show right now she is a heretic of the highest

01:11:17.880 order, still not as bad as Cosper, but continue. But here's, here's what I had thought, you know,

01:11:22.500 I had sent Tom a message, or maybe I just commented on a public feed as he was really

01:11:28.780 attacking president Trump during the campaign within a few weeks of the election, because he

01:11:35.240 didn't like something that, that Trump had done. Maybe that was back when people were calling him

01:11:40.560 pro-choice and getting pushback from whoever. And so I just wanted to demonstrate to Tom and to

01:11:49.700 others who are complaining about Paula White, in reformed evangelicalism, we really have expedited

01:11:57.760 our own irrelevancy. We're the ones who have relegated ourselves to the timeout corner.

01:12:03.600 We're the ones that will fight about Mark Driscoll when that was 12 civil wars ago. Let's move on to another issue. We have the opportunity and with what's going on right now and the populist social revival to reach so many people.

01:12:26.620 And we just sometimes can't let go of some of those, those old things.

01:12:32.600 And so the people are not going to tune in, let's say to the Tom Buck radio hour and listen

01:12:38.940 to him complain about Paul White for an hour and think, you know, I, I want to be a part

01:12:43.900 of that, whatever that is.

01:12:45.420 I want that.

01:12:46.760 And so the best thing that y'all can do and, and others associated with you is move forward.

01:12:54.120 Don't care what Tom Buck says.

01:12:55.440 don't care what gabriel hughes says don't care what mike cosper says don't care what james white

01:12:59.400 says doug wilson says listen their kingdoms are crumbling move forward go like the winds at your

01:13:07.520 sails like get on the horse and giddy up there's nothing stopping you but if every time you feel

01:13:15.400 it necessary to condescend yourself climb down off the mountain and talk to your accusers who

01:13:20.900 are still calling you racists and anti-Semites, like this is 2020 and they're Antifa, like anyone

01:13:27.160 cares, then that's going to be the biggest stumbling block to whatever it is that God is

01:13:34.500 doing through you and through the movement. And I always feel compelled to go back to the old

01:13:40.400 debates and the old arguments and the old feuds. Why? They're irrelevant. And when you spend your

01:13:47.080 time defending yourself against every single accusation racist anti-semite misogynist sexist 0.98

01:13:54.400 homophobic transphobic um you understand that's just stuff that satan designs to slow you down 1.00

01:14:01.520 and it doesn't matter if it comes from the the the blue-haired nose ring feminist lesbians on 0.97

01:14:09.500 libs of tiktok video or if that's coming from james white it's done for the same purpose and 0.97

01:14:15.780 that's to cast shade and slow you down. You wouldn't turn around and argue with a feminist 1.00

01:14:20.460 for three weeks about why you're not really a racist. Like they don't, they couldn't define 1.00

01:14:26.480 racist. They certainly can't define anti-Semite. I would, as hard as it is to listen to James White

01:14:33.060 and Doug Wilson, listen, their kingdoms are crumbling. They're old and their ministries

01:14:38.600 are dying. It's not as though they lost their relevancy. For the most part, they never had it.

01:14:45.120 When Steve Lawson fell, so many people were saying he's one of the most prominent evangelicals in the world.

01:14:53.580 And they're lamenting the sky's falling.

01:14:55.540 And I'm going, are you kidding me?

01:14:57.180 Nobody knows who Steve Lawson is.

01:14:59.200 He's not a household name.

01:15:00.860 They're not talking about him at the breakfast table.

01:15:03.240 He's popular in a tiny little niche.

01:15:06.520 We don't understand how small our niche is.

01:15:09.920 But here's the thing.

01:15:11.640 what you're talking about is the gospel of jesus christ that's a big deal it applies to everybody

01:15:18.740 and love for our kingdom excuse me love for our country and love for our people

01:15:24.380 everybody is interested in that it applies to everybody it's relevant to everyone

01:15:30.980 and so cast a much wider net and i think you're gonna have a lot of people

01:15:35.700 care about what it is that you're you're saying so you've got greg lock and clayton jennings and

01:15:42.700 some other people kind of heretical that i've talked about over the years and they have millions

01:15:47.700 of followers on instagram and facebook right i'm not saying imitate the heretics but i'm saying

01:15:52.720 they only got to that level of following in the masses because they didn't go through the gate

01:15:59.280 they went over the wall and if the gatekeepers want to say you can't listen to those guys and

01:16:04.320 follow me if they're going to play games like like they're the mean girls and they have a burn book

01:16:09.060 and this is seventh seventh grade lunch table and they're not nice to becky or whatever like we

01:16:14.480 don't you don't you don't need them i don't need them you never really did you have your own

01:16:17.880 platform just plow forward that's i want to be encouraging to you in that way yeah i appreciate

01:16:24.080 it uh i think you're right and uh yeah it's i i think that's you know providentially you know

01:16:31.240 even beyond, you know, getting off of us as a case study, but looking at the, you know,

01:16:34.400 the larger principle, that's kind of always what God has done. Like, it seems like, you know,

01:16:39.600 whether it's Charles Spurgeon, you know, or whoever, you know, whoever the Lord's moving with,

01:16:45.940 I think it's good. I'm not saying this is bad. I think it's prudence. I think it's wise. I think

01:16:50.540 it's biblical, you know, to be discipling locally and trying to raise up successors.

01:16:55.240 but it seems fairly often you guys feel free to correct me if i'm wrong but fairly often

01:17:01.760 um the true successor is someone that you don't account for you know it's like like you're you're

01:17:09.220 working with someone locally and this person is going to be our you know my protege and you know

01:17:14.400 like and when i died but like so like you know people will guess like who's gonna you know who's

01:17:19.280 going to be the successor to john mccarthur and honestly like if i had to guess it'll be some guy

01:17:25.960 that you know that john mccarthur doesn't even know john mccarthur will die and it'll be some

01:17:30.260 some kid you know who met him once at a shepherd's conference or something like that who drove up and

01:17:35.360 he didn't even live there he never even went to the church he certainly wasn't you know one of the

01:17:39.500 the main you know successor guys but it's just it's the spirit of god you know and that like

01:17:44.420 maybe it's my cares my my charismatic it's friday you know so it's just you know charismatic friday

01:17:48.940 But it's like, but it's true.

01:17:51.380 They got like the wind, you know, John 3, the wind blows, the spirit's like, you know, he blows where he wills.

01:17:56.440 God is sovereign.

01:17:57.220 He does what he wills.

01:17:58.340 He does what he wants.

01:17:59.800 And that's not to negate, again, because there is a biblical principle and we should be prudent and wise and diligent to make sure that we're, as much as we can, that we're reproducing ourselves and others.

01:18:11.560 So ultimately we're reproducing Christ, but we're taking whatever good Christ has given us and we're distributing that.

01:18:18.940 And multiplying that in others in a real, tangible, local way.

01:18:24.760 That we're doing that first and foremost with our families, with our wives, with our children.

01:18:28.420 We're doing that in our local church with other brothers in Christ.

01:18:32.440 And that we're discipling them.

01:18:33.520 We want to raise up others.

01:18:35.900 But at the end of the day, God's still sovereign.

01:18:37.760 And when it comes to, not just in a random local church, as important as every local church is.

01:18:43.960 But when it comes to a guy like a John MacArthur or, you know, a guy like a Billy Graham or, you know, whatever it might be, the true successor is not the guy on paper.

01:18:56.220 Rarely is it the guy on paper that that person hand-selected, you know, and spent, you know, however many years grooming him and preparing him and, you know, and left him, you know, in his proverbial will, left him the ministry, left him the influence, left him the opportunity.

01:19:13.000 but it's usually not him it's some other random dude who you know maybe they they never even

01:19:19.120 crossed paths and this guy you know goes on to you know to to truly become the next you know and

01:19:25.680 he and and he becomes the next billy graham and you know that's a whole debate whether we really

01:19:30.760 want another billy graham but he becomes the next billy graham it precisely because not this isn't

01:19:36.000 random i think this is this is it happens this way because it's this way he becomes the next

01:19:42.480 Billy Graham, because he's nothing like the last one, because he's different, because he's different,

01:19:48.220 you know, like, but I did it my way, you know, it's like, you know, like now we're in Frank Sinatra

01:19:54.700 territory, but like, it's, it's, because God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, there are

01:20:00.260 some immutable principles, the law, word of God, all that's true, but there's also timely, timeless

01:20:05.740 principles, but there's also timely principles, things that the Lord is doing in a particular

01:20:12.800 place, a particular time. And the last guy is, he's fit for his time, his place, his generation.

01:20:21.060 But the next guy is, he's different. The Lord is doing a new thing. It's like he was laying

01:20:29.180 a foundation here. Now he's putting up drywall there and you need different people, different

01:20:32.880 tools at different stages of the product, the project. And I think that's a lot of what the

01:20:38.260 Lord's doing. So I know that all of us probably have some thoughts, but let's go to our last

01:20:41.720 commercial break from the day for the day. And then we'll come back, get some concluding thoughts

01:20:45.860 and let's make sure to also to get some of the questions in the chat. All right. The clock is

01:20:51.260 running out. You need to go and register now for our Christ is King, how to defeat trash world

01:20:57.440 Conference. It's happening the year of our Lord, 2025, April 3rd, 4th, and 5th. That's a Thursday,

01:21:04.200 Friday, and Saturday. And by God's grace, we're able to provide for you an all-star lineup. We've

01:21:10.400 got Steve Dace, Calvin Robinson, Oren McIntyre, Dr. Stephen Wolf, Eric Kahn, David Reese, Andrew

01:21:17.440 Isker, John Harris, A.D. Robles, Dan Burkholder, Dusty Devers, Ben Garrett, C.J. Engel, and yours

01:21:24.940 truly, Pastor Joel Webben. Come on out. Join us April 3rd, 4th and 5th, 2025, Thursday through

01:21:32.680 Saturday. Go to rightresponseconference.com to register today. Again, that's rightresponseconference.com.

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01:23:00.460 and all of finance for Christendom. All right, welcome back. J.D., do you have 30 minutes to

01:23:08.400 just some closing thoughts and some questions? Sure, sure, I can do that. Perfect. So,

01:23:13.980 just how do you do, how do you navigate a world where, as we've been talking about,

01:23:17.760 the institutions and the gates are, they're over in the sense that we used to know them.

01:23:22.320 How do you navigate a world where there is not a stamp of approval or he came out of that seminary

01:23:26.400 or he's trained by so-and-so? It's kind of a brave new world. There's lots of ways. J.D.,

01:23:30.620 I definitely want to hear from you. But I think one thing that's really powerful is when,

01:23:34.380 obviously, there's things about Trump we don't like, but something he did so well. He won on

01:23:38.980 election night. So November 6th, November 5th, I forget. And he got up at 2 a.m. to give his

01:23:43.960 acceptance speech. I mean, this moment is all about him. J.D. Vance, now he joined his VP,

01:23:48.600 what, three, four months ago. But there was a moment in that speech where he said,

01:23:53.120 let me give it to J.D. for just a couple minutes. Because he recognized, and he recognized it better

01:23:58.140 than probably many pastors, his time's coming to an end. He's almost 80 years old. He's just simply

01:24:03.240 not going to be alive forever. And the future of the Republican Party and the Conservative Party

01:24:08.020 was standing in front of him and so instead of keeping and holding that spotlight as long as he

01:24:13.060 could i'm just gonna hold on to it and this is gonna be about me until the bell rings he said

01:24:18.120 no i recognize my time time's coming to an end and i want to use my platform to get this guy who's

01:24:23.800 the future as much face time as possible and with jd i guarantee there are disagreements i wouldn't

01:24:29.740 go as far as him with that i'm actually more partial to this but he just knows it's ultimately

01:24:34.700 not going to be my show at a certain point, and it's going to be his. And what he can get from me

01:24:38.680 is the encouragement, the support, the platform, and I'm going to give it to him. And every single,

01:24:45.020 at least certainly men here watching and listening in this chat, there will come a point, even if you

01:24:50.200 are 15 years old today, where you will be that father. You'll be 50, 55, 60, and your son and

01:24:56.220 your grandchildren will be into something new or starting something different. And you have the

01:25:01.480 option to be crusty, grumpy, critical. I don't know. I remember this back in my day. Or you can

01:25:09.680 be encouraging. And so in a world where there are institutions, where there aren't, you know, kind of

01:25:14.900 the stamp of approval that you can really count on, what you can commit to do, what you can actually

01:25:19.780 change is you can be the type of spiritual father, the type of civil father, the type of father that

01:25:25.120 encourages the next generation to the point where they actually would go, hey, I have some questions

01:25:30.000 for you. Could you tell me more about this? That is a much better relationship than browbeating

01:25:35.180 and criticism and trying as long as possible to hold on to whatever it is that you have.

01:25:41.260 JD, any thoughts to add, or we can go to questions?

01:25:45.020 You know, I find the discussion about who's going to replace so-and-so to be very revealing.

01:25:49.920 You know, we've been having that conversation about John MacArthur and Grace Community Church

01:25:53.840 for literally a decade. Like, you get together with other like-minded guys, and it's like,

01:25:58.540 it's not who's going to win the super bowl this year it's like so when macarthur dies

01:26:02.360 he's old you want to know but that that question betrays a heart of institutionalism

01:26:09.340 who's going to fill the office almost as though they're they're like an apostle and the answer

01:26:14.240 is most of the time it doesn't even matter because god really doesn't move through institutions

01:26:18.580 almost ever he moves through people i mean totally into vision replaced a d james kennedy

01:26:23.760 at at um uh at his church in in florida uh coral ridge uh you've you've got um what joel mcderman

01:26:32.440 was supposed to be the next greg bonson how did that how did that work out was he the was he the

01:26:38.300 second coming of rush duny or did maybe that that not work out so we we see the the the idea that

01:26:45.980 the institutions must be saved they must go forward who's going to be uh the successor the

01:26:51.660 next one, Ravi Zacharias was to be the next Billy Graham. How did that turn out? Um, and so

01:26:57.320 it's not about institutions. It's, it's really not even about, um, say somebody's parachurch

01:27:04.780 ministry. When I talk about reformed fiefdoms and fighting for donations and, and, and supporters

01:27:10.560 and getting into these, uh, fights that we've been a part of, God will move in whom he wants to move

01:27:17.420 when he wants to move, wherever he wants to move. And the Holy Spirit, I believe, is doing this

01:27:25.260 powerful thing. And he's, you know, again, I call it the, you know, the progressive, excuse me,

01:27:30.740 the populist social revival. You guys are a part of it. Your listeners are a part of it.

01:27:36.960 Being on your knees in prayer, praying that God would do stuff through you that we don't have

01:27:41.860 the capacity to do. I'm not a post-millennialist, but I'm as optimistic as one. God's doing fun

01:27:48.000 stuff, and I love this timeline, and I'm so thankful that this movement's happening right now.

01:27:52.920 Amen. Speaking of God doing something and being a part of it, some of the questions that we're

01:27:58.640 getting in the chat have to do with you, JD, and whether or not you're going to be a part

01:28:03.740 of what the Lord's doing at our conference. If you would like to come, then I would formally

01:28:09.560 offer you a free ticket right here publicly on air. We would love to have you, and you're welcome

01:28:14.360 to bring anybody you want to bring with you. If you want to bring the family or if you want to

01:28:18.680 bring a friend, I know that, I don't know, it may be a little daunting to you, you know,

01:28:24.260 not because it's us, but just in that environment. You know, I know that you've kind of been living,

01:28:30.880 you know, quietly and working with your hands and doing that life for the last few years now,

01:28:35.180 which I think the Lord has honored and blessed. But if you just want to come, there's a lot of

01:28:39.060 guys kind of similar to you not exactly you everybody has their unique story but there are

01:28:43.980 some other guys just you know for the record i won't name them because they may not be comfortable

01:28:47.840 with it but um other ministers that you know if if i said their name people would recognize it

01:28:53.660 who aren't you know they're not necessarily speaking at the conference or anything like that

01:28:56.740 but they they're going to be there they just they just want to be there and kind of you know hang

01:29:00.620 around and um and just you know kind of see you know and they don't even necessarily like you

01:29:05.240 Like, they don't even necessarily agree with every, you know, theological, you know, tertiary or secondary point that, you know, that we might hold.

01:29:12.420 But that's kind of the beauty of this conference.

01:29:14.460 I did that, right?

01:29:16.340 So, for our listeners who were, you know, who were familiar with the conference that we had a year ago, you know, I did that.

01:29:21.420 I did, you know, seven doctrines, you know, and it was, you know, very doctrine heavy and very, very particular, very specific.

01:29:29.340 but um i on it you know i'm building the plane in mid-flight i'm learning as i go i've always

01:29:37.180 admitted that you know publicly you know that like all right i was wrong about that oh i was

01:29:40.940 wrong about this um the more as the lord keeps kind of winnowing and winnowing um what i'm

01:29:49.120 realizing is it's it's hard it's hard to distill what god's doing down to doctrine and it's not

01:29:57.060 that doctrine there's never a time that doctrine doesn't matter there are there are some core

01:30:00.820 doctrines that will always matter no matter what um but what i'm realizing is you know for this

01:30:05.660 conference i've got steve dace is coming like i you know he's he's he's not you know mean towards

01:30:11.860 reformed guys he's not like anti-reformed but he's he's not really reformed and and he's

01:30:16.760 dispensational and and he's he's much more of a a friend to our greatest ally you know than i

01:30:23.300 personally would be. And we've got Calvin Robinson, who's Anglo-Catholic, but the tail

01:30:29.860 seems to be wagging the dog a little bit more than I would like, you know, on the Catholic side

01:30:33.860 of things. But technically, I guess I don't even know if he's Anglo-Catholic anymore, because

01:30:39.440 they kicked him out for his Roman salute that he recently, the gatekeepers got him.

01:30:48.060 And then we've got, you know, guys who are post-millennial and more on the theonomic side of the aisle.

01:30:53.780 And then we've got the, you know, more classical two-kingdom, all-millennial guys like Stephen Wolfe.

01:30:57.720 We've got a lot of guys coming.

01:30:59.280 And I think that's part of the beauty of it is if there's any common denominator is that we love Jesus.

01:31:04.760 Everybody's Christian.

01:31:06.320 But beyond that, it's everybody's a fighter.

01:31:09.600 Everyone is a fighter.

01:31:10.940 And I think there was a time, if there's any lesson that we've learned over the last 10 years, 15 years,

01:31:15.240 before we would have said, well, it's, you know, the dividing line is, are you a Calvinist? And

01:31:21.180 then Russell Moore says, well, watch me, you know, like, you know, because Calvinists, you know,

01:31:25.760 we can trust them to hold to what, you know, what's true. And, and then, you know, Russell

01:31:30.100 Moore and Ligon Duncan and all, you know, Tim Keller, all these Calvinists come out and, and

01:31:34.760 thoroughly disappoint us. And then, and then even myself, I'll admit, you know, that like, I, you 0.99

01:31:39.980 know, I've thought, I've thought, well, I guess, you know, it wasn't just being a Calvinist, but 0.63

01:31:44.960 it's being post-millennial, being optimistic about the future and engaged in the culture war. 0.55

01:31:50.080 But then it turns out that even as a post-millennial, I am still post-millennial. That's

01:31:53.900 still exegetically what I'm convinced of. I could be wrong, but that's what I'm convinced of.

01:31:59.260 But I've realized that even as a post-millennial, you can just tweak it in nuance and you can say,

01:32:04.520 well, yes, Christ does win and he wins progressively throughout history, but

01:32:08.520 he's going to win you know 50 000 years from now and for the next you know 500 years or even 5 000

01:32:15.840 years we're on you know the general trajectory is up but we're currently on a dip and this dip is

01:32:20.380 going to last you know for the rest of our life and so then functionally you can be the most

01:32:24.140 pessimistic you can you can make a lot of the dispensational guys look like by comparison

01:32:28.700 10 times more optimistic than you as a post-mill guy so my point is that like it's hard it's hard

01:32:35.140 to put into words. It's hard to pin it down, but it's like this old American spirit of excellence.

01:32:46.100 It's this ethos of a certain type of person who's nothing less than a Christian. It's nothing less,

01:32:54.560 but in addition to that, believes that we could win, and here's the key, that we could win here

01:33:01.980 and we could win now. And I've realized there's some guys who feel like, well,

01:33:06.440 you know, gradually, progressively throughout history, we actually are going to lose.

01:33:10.880 However, I think for my life and for my kids, the next 50 years still matter. And for the next 50

01:33:16.620 years, I'm bullish. I think we could win. Or I think we could at least have some serious

01:33:21.220 improvements. So there's disby guys. Again, not a huge fan of Zionism and some of the things that 1.00

01:33:27.980 that can lend towards, not always, but more often than I would like. But there's Dispy guys, 1.00

01:33:33.580 there's Postmill guys, there's a lot of Allmill guys, there's Theononic guys, there's Classical

01:33:39.360 Two Kingdom guys. But the common denominator is everybody loves Jesus and they want to see

01:33:45.560 America be Christian. Now, whether or not they would call it Christian nationalism, but they

01:33:50.120 want to see a Christian America. And everybody would have a different way of fleshing that out,

01:33:56.460 what that looks like. But they want to see that because they have kids. They care about their

01:34:02.740 kids. They want their kids to be able to grow up and actually be able to afford a home, be able to

01:34:07.080 get married, not get passed over for the job opportunities, all that kind of stuff. So we've

01:34:13.340 got all kinds of guys who are coming to this conference. In some ways, it's exactly the same

01:34:18.100 as last year. And in some ways, it's exactly the opposite. That instead of seven doctrines to rule

01:34:23.300 the world. It's go fight, win. And here are all your fighters. We've got a ragtag team

01:34:31.800 that doctrinally have differences among us, but we're here to raise hell when it comes to

01:34:39.800 fighting the hordes of Satan and winning back our country for our children, for us and for our

01:34:48.040 posterity. And so anyways, all that being said, I'm excited about the conference. I would love

01:34:51.740 if you would like to come. And that's one of the questions in the chat. So I thought I'd bring it

01:34:55.160 up. What do you think? You know, I've thought, I've thought a lot about it. It's a concern to

01:35:00.380 me. I want, I want to clarify because, you know, it comes up, uh, about me getting back into things.

01:35:07.540 I spent 15 years, um, doing a podcast where I'm talking about James McDonald and Mark Driscoll

01:35:13.840 or whoever say, if you disqualify yourself for ministry, uh, like go sell cars or something.

01:35:19.800 um and and so uh kind of where i'm at like i'm happy farming chickens i'm not going back to that

01:35:27.540 now james white says i'm not uh i'm i'm not uh qualified to share my opinions i think his exact

01:35:34.260 words were uh be quiet and go away i think is what he said um you know the pope has made his

01:35:41.800 pronouncement i think what i need to do because i've lost a lot of sleep over the pronouncement

01:35:45.940 um, that I need to be quiet and go away. I need to send him a letter and ask if he was speaking

01:35:50.780 ex cathedra or not. Cause I'm not sure how the rules work. I'm quite, I'm, I'm quite comfortable,

01:35:57.420 you know, farming and, and, and live in my nice, quiet farm life and yet share opinions on stuff.

01:36:04.100 Um, I, I will say I have been, um, and, and not just the opinions. Like I think I do have

01:36:12.200 something to offer in terms of having been there and done that and seen a lot of this. I hope that

01:36:19.500 what I produce on X or at Insight to Insight or Protestia Plus, my genuine hope is that people

01:36:25.720 find it edifying and encouraging. So that's why I do it. And it does make me feel good to be of

01:36:31.260 some use because I've spent two and a half years just talking to farm animals. They've not started

01:36:35.940 to talk back yet, but it sometimes is concerning. No, I've thought about going just for the

01:36:41.140 fellowship of it because you know the meme i think it was made by uh i saw it on evangelical

01:36:48.820 dark web where it was which way reformed a man the main yeah right and to me like okay your

01:36:57.620 conference looks really fun um it looks like you're gonna have a good time and the conference

01:37:04.980 that they were comparing it to kind of like this brown monotone it reminded me of like when dry

01:37:10.180 Dwight Schrute made the, it is your birthday sign, right?

01:37:17.000 So it's just, it's just like, it's, it seemed oppressive.

01:37:20.200 And I stopped preaching at reform Baptist churches six, seven years ago.

01:37:25.980 I stopped because they'd have me come and, and do events and conferences.

01:37:30.240 I always left depressed.

01:37:32.220 They felt like legit.

01:37:34.800 They felt like funerals.

01:37:36.420 Like they're just sad, depressing.

01:37:38.340 like where's the unction in any of this but you guys honestly seem like you'd be a blast but you

01:37:43.980 you did put me in a hard spot right now which is you brought up calvin robinson and

01:37:48.920 now i love i love i love steve i spoke with i'm i don't say i don't want to say i'm friends with

01:37:56.160 steve but i know steve i've spoken with him at conferences like where we both spoke at the same

01:38:00.460 conference he's given one of the best talks i've ever heard at a conference at the stand he's a

01:38:06.380 He's got the only standing ovation at Fight La Feast this year.

01:38:10.480 Well, he's just automatic standing ovation.

01:38:11.820 He's a fighter, and he's a phenomenal speaker.

01:38:14.140 He's inspiring. 0.94

01:38:14.840 He quoted the verse about donkey ejaculate without looking at his notes. 0.54

01:38:21.440 I was impressed that he pulled that one out.

01:38:24.460 So he's super great.

01:38:26.280 But you brought up Calvin Robinson. 0.98

01:38:28.080 I spoke at the Stand Against Marxism conference, and there was a papist there.

01:38:33.440 And so like, I felt like I was obligated to be like, I'm the Protestant, I'm still protesting, stop being a Romanist, the Pope is Antichrist, and just kind of moved on.

01:38:44.300 Well, to be fair, just to clarify real quick, Calvin's, he's not a papist, and he's, he's like a...

01:38:51.320 He's papist light.

01:38:52.760 Well, so he's not a huge fan of the Pope.

01:38:55.640 He would certainly be more friendly than you and I would be.

01:38:58.120 Um, but his, his whole thing, you know, the Anglo Catholic, his whole thing is, um, it's,

01:39:04.700 it's more of your, uh, Catholic, you know, successionism, um, which I still, you know,

01:39:09.580 obviously would disagree with, but for him, think, think Catholic minus the Pope and minus

01:39:15.620 Vatican one, Vatican two and Trent. Think that now, is he still going to have some views of Mary

01:39:21.480 that make you, you know, cringe a little bit? Yeah. Yeah, he does. I can't deny that. Uh, do I,

01:39:27.300 is it uh the timing unfortunate that the moment i invited him to the conference uh that that was

01:39:33.640 the moment that he uh decided to go full full mary you know veneration online um yeah that

01:39:40.840 was unfortunate timing however let's be honest it wasn't a coincidence the reason that happened

01:39:45.380 was because he went to moscow and nobody cared right um and then the moment that i announced

01:39:51.680 that he was coming to our conference he got pressed by james white and a bunch of other

01:39:56.760 guys in the Reformed crowd on the Mariology, and this is what I love about Calvin. Honestly,

01:40:05.640 ironically, it's kind of like James White. I've had a lot of guys say, man, I remember watching

01:40:11.020 him debate or watching him on the dividing line, and I loved it. But then when I saw it turned

01:40:16.360 against me, then I was like, oh, that's actually not a fair argument, or actually that was ad

01:40:22.340 hominem or you notice all the fallacies you know and all all the bad argumentation and those kinds

01:40:27.360 of things when it when it's turned on you and so the thing that i love about calvin is he's a fighter

01:40:33.400 so like if you press him and say um well you're you uh hold a mariology and you need to deny it

01:40:40.260 right now well then he's going to give you a roman salute and uh and he's gonna uh pray the rosary

01:40:46.100 even harder that's just like that's that and that's what i i now i don't like it in that avenue

01:40:51.220 but but that fighting spirit of you cannot tell me what to do i will do whatever that's that's

01:40:56.800 why i invited him i defended you guys from the hypocrisy of that because i saw southern baptists

01:41:01.960 complaining and i'm like i was pulling my hair out just a few years ago when rod dreher was being

01:41:07.820 drug around like a show pony everywhere right and and you know he doesn't even believe in penal

01:41:13.080 substitution so it's like one step further away from orthodoxy than roman catholicism but when i

01:41:18.640 spoke with michael hitchborn of the lepanto institute at the marxism conference after saying

01:41:24.000 what i felt i needed to say to keep my protestant street creds um i i said listen um right now we're

01:41:30.760 all under assault i do want the papists to fight marxism and i want to fight marxism and i want 0.97

01:41:36.980 the mormons to fight marxism and i i want us to annihilate and destroy them so that we can then 0.97

01:41:44.500 turn sights on each other and fight each other like god intended us to do right so like i want 0.97

01:41:50.740 to get back to that war so uh i you know i i was like i was thinking to myself i hope he doesn't

01:41:56.420 bring up robinson because i'm gonna have a thousand people on my ex going why didn't you

01:42:00.800 rebuke those guys for having robinson there well just say you disagree you disagree you don't like

01:42:07.520 you don't like it there you go agree with people i just covered your bases time well i didn't like

01:42:13.800 the fact that john mcarthur uh invited albert moeller legan duncan uh and mark dever to shepcon

01:42:21.560 while the dallas statement was going around like or that they spoke at g3 that year i didn't like

01:42:27.720 having josh bice attack me as a negative contrarian because he invited the worst proponents

01:42:33.940 of social justice to the conference about social justice and so i was more offended by that than i

01:42:40.260 am uh robinson but let me say this i i wrote about this at insight to insight i forget the name of

01:42:47.200 the article but it was the senate of the senate of trash world i think is the name of the article

01:42:51.600 when i said in it in a in a new movement and christian nationalism is not really new per se

01:42:59.160 like right it's it's got some reconstructionist vibes a little bit of the theonomic tendency but

01:43:05.220 Like, you basically hold the position of the pre-1788 Westminster Confession of Faith.

01:43:10.640 So we can't call it new, right?

01:43:13.320 But in any movement like that, a synod, a council, a diet has all been very important historically to get together and work stuff out.

01:43:23.940 To say this is a bad idea.

01:43:26.240 We shouldn't have done this.

01:43:27.380 We should support that.

01:43:29.100 That's why I thought it was pretty crazy that Durbin would back out, being that he was close enough, closely associated with you enough on the page about most things that you would have him come.

01:43:42.620 That would be the time and place to say, OK, while we're there, we need to have a family meeting and we need to talk about X, Y and Z to then help direct and steer.

01:43:55.560 Here's the thing.

01:43:56.800 They never wanted to help direct or steer or correct.

01:44:00.380 They only wanted to anathematize you.

01:44:02.980 That was the only reason.

01:44:04.260 Because if you refuse to show up to an event like that, when you've been invited and you've agreed, what that means is they just want to cast you off, hand you over to Satan and anathematize you.

01:44:17.420 I hope that you have a discussion at Trash World or the correct name of the conference.

01:44:24.120 I hope that you have a conversation about, is this going to involve Catholics and Orthodox or Mormonism or Seventh-day Adventists?

01:44:33.920 Is it going to include hard shell or soft shell Seventh-day Adventists or both?

01:44:38.000 And even if you already have the answers to all that, there are going to be people like me who don't.

01:44:44.280 And so that's the place for Nicholas to punch Arius at such an event.

01:44:50.500 and so we'll just pray that a good fist fight breaks out at your conference and you'll settle

01:44:56.360 something there's a good chance because we've got david reese and stephen wolf and uh calvin

01:45:02.740 robinson and they've all the three of them online have already kind of been going at it squaring

01:45:07.300 off yeah we'll see what happens it's funny though that the irony to me is uh you know one of the

01:45:11.660 critiques we're getting is uh this is just a uh it's not a christian nationalism conference it's

01:45:15.420 just a white nationalism conference then i invited calvin they're like it's papist

01:45:20.360 so you know so they're like we can't say it's racist anymore but we'll say it's papist you know

01:45:25.980 so there you go all right 10 minutes we'll be respectful of your time let's do all the super

01:45:30.800 chats all the super chats ben of course thank you super chat 20 ben huffstether said get that

01:45:37.800 support going joel this is a question for you i have to ask this so i know how close to brotherhood

01:45:42.440 br you had only one option for the rest of your life would it be ketchup or all caps mustard

01:45:47.500 hashtag yellow for life hashtag catsup cat soup is garbage yeah so it's actually i'm not just

01:45:54.140 saying this is funny that he uh is very clearly pro mustard but um i despise ketchup and always

01:46:00.180 and uh yeah i didn't know that before i agreed to be a contributor yeah i will always call it

01:46:06.420 Okay, so both of you are done, but I've got Ben over here, and I'm guaranteed at least $20 a live stream, so I think we'll be fine.

01:46:15.300 Next one.

01:46:16.480 Jeff Halfley, $4.99.

01:46:18.480 Thank you, Jeff.

01:46:19.000 You actually had a couple, so I'm going to go through and read all of them.

01:46:21.760 This is a question.

01:46:23.200 JD, we'll get it to you since you're the guest, so you can think on it here while I just read the rest of his.

01:46:26.800 Jeff Halfley asks, do you think that ideological or theological purity is often used as an excuse

01:46:34.480 by losers for losing constantly? Is ideological or theological purity used as an excuse when

01:46:40.180 losers lose? He also added some super chats. Christians who say the church thrives under

01:46:44.580 persecution should remember what happened to the North African church under the Muslims or

01:46:48.480 the Japanese church in the 1500s. Not good. He said, JD, I helped Joel McDermott get elected

01:46:55.000 to a minor GOP office make in 2013.

01:46:58.420 He's been such a disappointment.

01:47:00.120 Any idea what happened to him?

01:47:01.400 And then one more comment, Nate,

01:47:02.960 if you could just scroll down.

01:47:04.680 He said, JD, well, I think Joel narrowly won

01:47:06.900 that debate on points.

01:47:08.400 Your body of work versus Joel's since then

01:47:11.200 has been the best argument from your side.

01:47:13.360 So Jeff, thanks for the super chats.

01:47:15.400 Ideological, theological purity,

01:47:17.460 the participation trophy for losing.

01:47:19.480 What do you think, JD?

01:47:20.360 well um in terms of a participation trophy for uh for losing it i don't know the context of what

01:47:29.280 he's talking about i did see something from nil shinby talking about uh why christians might want

01:47:35.040 to be bad debaters kind of a weird thing like to maintain your your moral integrity um but

01:47:40.400 you know if we're right if we're positionally right on a topic then uh what is winning and

01:47:47.740 losing me to be more persuasive like i i would rather be right um and uh maybe less persuasive

01:47:56.720 because at the end of the day people are going to mull it over and you know truth permeates

01:48:00.480 eventually it'll shine um so without the more context on the question i don't know that i

01:48:06.040 necessarily understand it i guess what he's getting at is just saying you know like a lot

01:48:09.860 of times evangelicals have prided themselves as we're going down with the ship you know like

01:48:13.980 well uh you know or like the the meme of uh the epitaph you know the tombstone and it says uh

01:48:20.480 you know uh conservativism like here lies conservativism and then in quotations it says

01:48:25.040 imagine uh imagine if the other side did this you know like so it's like as as i um as i lose

01:48:32.560 and and with finality and my entire you know line is cut off and and i've you know basically

01:48:40.040 committed suicide, well, at least I was principled. So I think that's the heart of the

01:48:43.780 question is, do evangelicals, do Christians sometimes use doctrinal purity and having

01:48:52.080 being right, the principled stand as an excuse for the fact that we lose so often?

01:48:58.880 I don't know that I've seen that much. Here's what I have seen. It's not doctrinal purity so

01:49:03.820 much as it is politeness. And so while the left have been ugly and nasty, trying to put you in 0.78

01:49:10.940 jail and, and, and blacklist you and, and, and all this other stuff, like they're, they're super 0.98

01:49:16.740 nasty. We Christians feel the need to honor that 11th commandment where it's always pumping

01:49:22.800 sunshine, right? Like we're, we're just supposed to, to grin and bear it and not only turn the

01:49:28.500 cheek once, but, you know, turn, give them every cheek, then give them, give them your children

01:49:33.860 and wife's cheeks for them to strike. Um, and so I've seen Christians handicap ourselves just so 0.98

01:49:41.000 that we don't look like we're fighting dirty. Um, and, and I mean, honestly, uh, we're just now

01:49:49.220 starting to, uh, to fight fire with fire in regard to some things. I'm very thankful to see it. It's

01:49:55.080 hard to win a serious argument if you're over concerned about uh looking like pollyanna or

01:50:01.100 smiling like joel osteen sometimes you just have to glare yeah well said uh and then real quick

01:50:07.720 to go back to jeff halfley what do you what um basically he said uh what do you what do you think

01:50:13.000 if you had to you know obviously this would be you know mostly probably speculation but what do

01:50:17.620 you think happened with uh joel mcdermott you know i i appreciate him saying i i he thinks joel

01:50:26.460 won on points so i if i could explain his trajectory i i'd say i you know

01:50:33.300 i beat the man out of him it was it was pretty one-sided i will say that that james white said

01:50:43.060 definitively, and I'm pretty sure it was ex-Cathedra, that I won that debate at the time.

01:50:48.840 Now, here's what happens, and this is a super actually important question. What did happen to

01:50:53.620 them? I always said Theonomy has a huge backdoor. So you have all these Theonomists, some very

01:50:59.700 prominent ones, with the exception of Bonson and Rushduni, who are both dead. People come in,

01:51:07.400 it sounds like a good idea but then in terms of its application um people eventually take a step

01:51:14.680 back and become general equity theonomists which is true the other word for that is not a theonomist

01:51:20.220 okay so they're just saying that they agree now with chapter uh 19 or is it 17 in the westminster

01:51:27.420 confession um on the the civil code and even the lbc says the same thing so the 1689 think was

01:51:37.280 yeah so mcderman um was like many he was he was a doctrinal tourist and you see that with

01:51:45.640 christian nationalism too right you probably see that a lot people are tourists they come in they

01:51:50.760 check it out um but i think that what the moment to me where he switched was the bounds of love

01:51:56.940 which he did about six months after that debate where he gave up the penologies he he then no 0.56

01:52:03.960 said that no longer should we uh stone or or execute homosexuals uh thomas granger should 0.95

01:52:11.700 not have been punished for sodomizing the turkey that they brought up in the debate 0.98

01:52:15.260 kind of a crazy argument and here's what's nuts about that um that means i am infinitely more

01:52:22.520 a theonomist than he is although technically i'm not one at all i want people to understand that

01:52:27.460 even though i don't call myself a christian nationalist because i'm more like in agreement

01:52:32.660 with the revised post-1788 WCF, I still believe in enforcement of the second table. 0.96

01:52:41.000 So like I could agree with Christian nationalists on criminalizing adultery 0.96

01:52:47.660 because that's in the second table. 0.99

01:52:51.840 So we have those agreements.

01:52:53.460 But with Joel McDermott, listen, he was the flavor of the month in this new coal movement. 0.64

01:52:59.900 He was riding it like a surfboard.

01:53:01.640 he fell off his surfboard my understanding is that gary damar got really upset at him for his

01:53:07.260 poor debate performance and you know the next thing you know he's got a ponytail and he's

01:53:12.900 an attorney defending antifa and taking selfies with kyle j howard but i you know sometimes people

01:53:20.620 just turn on you like who knows some of it's mysterious like i could imagine him leaving

01:53:26.300 theonomy most people do but he i don't know if he fell and hit his head or got hit by a bus or what

01:53:32.980 but it seems like it like it knocked the heterosexual out of him somehow like he's just

01:53:38.180 he's weird like i don't know it's supernatural that's how that's how far he went off course

01:53:44.980 yeah i yeah i agree with a lot of what you just said and i i think um what i've noticed a little

01:53:51.940 bit is um the theonomy because i've kind of done what you just described in terms of you know

01:53:58.500 okay you know general equity theonomy i've been saying that for about you know year and a half

01:54:04.040 now because it is basically the confessional position um just saying that okay the moral

01:54:09.080 law of god is immutable it stands forever you know summarized summary law in the decalogue

01:54:13.740 the exodus 20 10 commandments and then you know a ceremonial law has been fulfilled and it's all

01:54:19.720 been fulfilled by Christ, but that has been fulfilled in such a way that to continue the

01:54:24.120 ceremonial law, it's not even to say that it doesn't continue, that it's been abrogated,

01:54:28.640 that it's done away. Not one jot or tittle will pass away. Behold on the Lord, I changeth not,

01:54:34.060 so that you, the sons of Jacob, are not consumed. But it's the uniqueness of the way that Christ

01:54:39.520 fulfilled the ceremonial law, Christ's fulfillment of the moral law. If I go on and then say, well,

01:54:46.220 Christ has paid the penalty of my sin and the moral law has been, you know, completely satisfied

01:54:49.860 by his life. He didn't just die in my place, but substitutionary life, his act of obedience,

01:54:55.920 John Owen, like he lived in my place and didn't just avoid sin and maintain a state of innocence,

01:55:00.680 but he fulfilled all righteousness, as John the Baptist said. So he lived in my place

01:55:04.360 perfectly and fulfilled the moral law of God on my behalf. And his fulfillment of the moral law

01:55:09.240 is such that as I seek to the best of my ability, empowered by the Holy Spirit and by grace,

01:55:15.700 although imperfectly, because the presence of sin remains in this life. But if I seek to obey

01:55:20.480 the moral law, that's actually consenting to his fulfillment, saying that Christ did this perfectly

01:55:25.680 and I want to walk in his example. But if I take that same frame of mind and I apply that to the

01:55:30.200 ceremonial law of God, and I say, Christ, he's the behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the

01:55:36.180 sins of the world. He's the perfect and final sacrifice for sin. And so I'm now sacrificing

01:55:41.800 this sheep or this goat, in the same way that I'm trying to not commit adultery because Christ

01:55:47.940 has perfectly fulfilled the moral law, and now I'm sacrificing a sheep or a goat because Christ

01:55:52.940 was the Lamb of God, the final sacrifice. No, that actually points, that makes a statement

01:55:58.520 in the opposite direction. It asserts the insufficiency of Christ's sacrifice, that what

01:56:04.920 he did ceremonial uh ceremonially is actually uh not enough um and then the civil you know all this

01:56:11.340 you know our listeners know and i know you jd know but the civil it's just it's just extracting

01:56:15.740 the principle you know the general equity it's okay what's the under you know taking the civil

01:56:20.000 tying it back to the moral law and then saying uh it's not just dropping wholesale you know the

01:56:25.300 civil law is given to israel in argentina you know or wherever else but but okay but what's

01:56:30.500 the underlining moral principle here, and then it's not a one-step process, but a two-step

01:56:35.260 process. Take these civil laws to Israel, and step one is track it back to the general equity,

01:56:41.600 the moral principle that undergirds it, back to the moral law of God, the Ten Commandments,

01:56:46.020 and then how does that apply in our world today? My point is, that's where I'm at now. And I've

01:56:51.440 realized that for guys who aren't really there, theonomy, here's the thing, is if it is a one-to-one

01:56:59.480 ratio um then theonomy is as much as it is about the law of god and as much as that matters and

01:57:06.340 and it does sound really good because i mean we could always use more of the law of god

01:57:10.100 but um it actually becomes because i was like how how in the world are theonomists like like

01:57:16.880 some of the biggest advocates for the post-war consensus how how is it that the theonomists

01:57:21.940 um are like are are actually some of the loudest voices chant championing you know gdp must go up

01:57:29.000 and how how are theonomists right now the guys doing podcasts that are mad at trump for tariffs

01:57:34.580 it's the theonomists though and then and i was like trying to piece it together for why i mean

01:57:39.560 it really kind of confused it really confused me and i had to like rethink some things i was like

01:57:44.320 the theonomists are they're the guys who are really concerned about racism really concerned

01:57:50.600 about anti-semitism um like really holding to the post-war consensus in many ways much more in line

01:57:56.300 with Buckley than they are with Buchanan. They also, and then it finally hit me and I was like,

01:58:03.460 this is what the theonomists like about theonomy. They don't like it that it's a lot of God's law.

01:58:10.120 They like that it's a little. So the best way I can explain it is G.K. Chesterton, you know,

01:58:15.340 and it's a good quote. I like it. But, you know, he said, if man will not have 10 commandments,

01:58:19.540 he will have 10,000 commandments. This is what I realized. It took me a while, but it really is

01:58:23.720 this simple um theonomy is just the christianized version of libertarianism they're just libertarians

01:58:28.880 that's that's all it is they're libertarians um especially maybe not so much morally right so 0.86

01:58:35.280 they're not libertarians like they would have like some some gay trans person as their mascot

01:58:39.740 you know at their route they're not libertines right right yeah but they are certainly libertarians

01:58:44.960 economically and that's when i finally kind of was able to to do a little digging and realize

01:58:50.180 oh, these guys, they don't like tariffs. They don't like this. They're actually okay. They're

01:59:00.540 actually okay with H-1B or with this or with that. And they mask it in the language of these are

01:59:07.540 extra biblical laws and it's only God's law, 10 commandments, not 10,000. But really what it

01:59:13.740 amounts to is, economically speaking, and also racially speaking, it actually does lend itself

01:59:22.020 towards globalism. It actually is very friendly of the post-liberal order of the 20th century,

01:59:28.720 which is really an anomaly. If you look at the whole rest of the swath of human history,

01:59:34.760 theonomy is actually shockingly compatible with the post-liberal order. It's shockingly

01:59:42.100 compatible with um with amazon and uh you know being able to just franchise mcdonald's and make

01:59:49.840 widgets you know for the cheapest amount in china you know at below minimum wages and and then the 0.74

01:59:55.640 moment that you say but wait this is taking all the jobs away from heritage americans and a bunch 0.68

02:00:00.580 of white guys in flyover country they have nothing that they can give to their sons um and you raise

02:00:05.500 that objection and the theonomist says yeah but um tariffs are actually biblical and that's you

02:00:09.700 know the law of god forbids it and um and i and it's fine so it took me a while to realize like

02:00:15.240 are there any like notable theonomists like is there is there an incentive that i'm not unaware

02:00:21.760 are there any notable theonomists that are just like like just i mean surely not but like just

02:00:27.580 hedge fund managers like like like multi-millionaires you know in in finance that actually

02:00:34.400 profit off of free trade without any you know that is just economically speaking that that

02:00:40.600 america is just an economic and and then that was a significant drive for gary north i mean that

02:00:46.800 that was central it's interesting you bring that up that was a big part of gary north's theonomy

02:00:52.360 was the economic side yes and so anyway so it just took me a while to figure it out but finally i

02:00:58.240 realized like oh man like it's not it's not so much the law my point is uh for some of the the

02:01:04.640 og theonomists not so much rush duny though rush duny was different but but some of these these

02:01:09.580 guys later and kind of like like if there's three waves and now is the third wave and rush duny and

02:01:14.100 greg bonson are the first way some of these second wave guys what i realized for them it wasn't so

02:01:18.600 much we need theonomy because we need more laws it was it was theonomy for them is it's a one-to-one

02:01:25.140 ratio. Theonomy means libertarianism and small government, whereas the only appeal to me for

02:01:33.780 theonomy from the get-go was not that. I want righteous government. Now, I do think biblically

02:01:40.500 that a righteous government would be drastically smaller in many regards. Here's the thing, though.

02:01:47.020 Small does not inherently mean righteous, and big doesn't inherently mean corrupt.

02:01:51.240 you could have a small bad government you could have a big good government um there are some

02:01:55.980 things i do think there are biblical jurisdictions there are some things that government shouldn't be

02:01:59.420 in but but by and large i look at our government and i think yeah in in about seven out of ten

02:02:05.480 areas if we were to boil it down to ten categories about seven out of ten um if it was to be righteous

02:02:11.120 in those seven areas it'd be smaller these other three areas over here they'd actually be larger

02:02:15.860 They'd actually be bigger if they're going to be righteous.

02:02:19.960 And so for me, it's just, it's a little bit more complex.

02:02:23.780 Go ahead.

02:02:24.080 You were going to say something.

02:02:25.480 No, I just wanted to add this to the theonomy discussion.

02:02:29.980 And I'm so thankful for that question because it was important to me for people to know

02:02:37.200 who've been following my work for so long that despite what's occurred with my life

02:02:43.700 and ministry and all of that. I really wanted people to know that I've not changed, that my

02:02:51.600 eyes are on Christ. I'm not going down the slippery slope of bad ideas like a lot of guys do

02:03:00.120 when they stumble. That said, theonomy is actually the perfect example that I can use to express to

02:03:07.860 people that um this is why i'm treating christian nationalism the way i am what i mean by that is

02:03:14.860 my my arguments with the theonomists might have been a little tad bit heated right like it got

02:03:23.900 pretty ugly between me and those guys and over the years i like i came to regret it like um

02:03:32.600 McDermott went the way he went, but most of those guys came out of it, and I suppose Durbin would

02:03:38.940 be the other example if maybe it didn't turn out so well, but for the most part, the men who followed

02:03:43.840 them, they got it all sorted out, and that's why when I went further and debated someone on New

02:03:51.360 Covenant theology and charismaticism, when I debated Matt Slick and so forth, my attitude

02:03:57.480 was much different, that I'm not debating really an enemy as though I was debating a Roman Catholic

02:04:05.300 or an atheist or something. Here's my point, though. What I discovered through the theonomy

02:04:11.300 debate days is that for men who love the Lord and for men who genuinely are born again in the faith,

02:04:22.100 they've been made regenerate, they've been given hearts of flesh after their heart of stone was

02:04:26.340 plucked out of their chest. God brought them to repentance. They're saved. They belong to him.

02:04:31.720 Here's the thing I didn't consider like I should have back then and that I do now.

02:04:38.120 Now, this is a wild concept, super controversial. Cut this out of the podcast if you want to later.

02:04:43.360 Like, well, it's live. So I guess I'm toast. Here's my, here's my thought, as controversial

02:04:47.840 as it could be. I think the Holy Ghost leads people to the knowledge of truth. Now, surprising,

02:04:55.380 I know. Like, I hope that's not going to get you guys into more, you're going to lose advertisers

02:05:01.600 or something. But I think that Christians that are led by the Holy Spirit can have their theology

02:05:07.240 directed by him, that the Holy Ghost illumines our minds. And that if there is an idea that's bad

02:05:15.320 or imperfect, I'm not talking about questioning the resurrection or something like reconsidering

02:05:21.360 sola fide. But if there's a doctrine that somebody has adopted that I don't think is quite right,

02:05:26.860 I can rest assured that the Holy Ghost, the same one that leads me will lead them. And

02:05:33.920 when I have people look at me and say, why are you being nice to the Christian nationalist guys?

02:05:40.200 You don't agree with them on all that stuff. Go after them. It's like, my disagreements are so

02:05:47.740 small but even if they weren't i can't browbeat someone into uh agreement with me and i think that

02:05:58.080 overall uh christianity has been evangelical christianity in america has gotten really ugly

02:06:04.960 i don't mean that we're not being nice enough to each other in like a sugar sweet sort of way

02:06:09.920 but we flat out anathematize people at the drop of a hat and i do have to blame some of your

02:06:17.160 critics for that because they've helped lead that, um, that anathematize first ask questions,

02:06:23.260 second attitude. And you know what, I'll be the first one to confess. I did some of that junk too,

02:06:28.580 but the theonomy debate really taught me, you know, JD, if, if those guys belong to Jesus, 0.74

02:06:37.460 he'll lead them and they'll come out of it. So that's why I pray that you have a really successful,

02:06:42.360 you know a conference coming up and that i'm i'm convinced that if you're wrong on something

02:06:48.920 i have full confidence god will straighten that out that's why i really hate to see all treated

02:06:54.300 the way you're treated by people who are saying things they can't take back you know when you

02:06:59.560 just declare someone to be of satan uh it's really hard to walk that back and i'm sorry that you have

02:07:04.880 to deal with that i hope that the the ministry that i had previously in polemics has not fostered

02:07:09.980 the attitude that because you have a minor disagreement with someone, uh, you have to

02:07:14.400 treat them the way those guys are treating you. I appreciate that. Appreciate that a lot. Yeah.

02:07:19.500 I, you know, it's, it's, I like what you said in terms of, you know, the minor disagreements

02:07:24.200 and those kinds of things. Um, I've kind of realized that that too is just, um, people,

02:07:29.900 yeah, like, like you said, the Holy spirit leads people, people come around. Um, and,

02:07:35.120 And, you know, at the end of the day, like with each passing year, I'm realizing more, you know, you realize more and more who your friends are, you know, where you're aligned.

02:07:47.760 And I don't know.

02:07:49.620 I don't know if it's ideology, you know, like just a bent towards being ideological or what it might be.

02:07:55.200 But for the longest time, I always thought that, you know, that the dividing line, you know, when if we get pressed, you know, or, you know, that that that people would would sort, you know, they would self sort and the lines would ultimately fall around doctrine.

02:08:12.400 but uh i just feel like at this point it's 2025 the year of our lord 2025 and uh i feel like it's

02:08:18.840 been long enough to look back over the last 10 years and whether it was woke wars one and social

02:08:25.920 justice or you know or uh covid you know or um you know george floyd later on or you know and then

02:08:34.900 or or trumpism or with all these things like with each each new providential moment where the lord

02:08:42.300 just kind of drops another bomb on us from on high, you know, and I sit and seated on

02:08:48.800 his sovereign throne, you know, drops another providential bomb and, and in real time, uh,

02:08:54.820 we're trying to, you know, to, to figure out what, what's the right position and where

02:08:58.620 do we land and we're, you know, um, each time that happens, if I'm, if I'm honest and I

02:09:04.440 wish this wasn't the case, like I wish with COVID, COVID was a game changer for everybody,

02:09:09.680 But for me, it was a game changer in multiple regards, and here's one of them.

02:09:15.400 I just, I had to admit to myself and, you know, to my church and to people online, that's about the time that we started podcasting. 0.63

02:09:23.840 I had to admit and say, I wish, like, it would have been really compelling for Reformed theology if COVID came down the pike and all the Reformed churches stayed open and all the non-Reformed churches closed.

02:09:38.140 um but if we're going to be honest like i'm grateful for what john mccarthur did but it was

02:09:44.240 like 10 weeks in um let's like let's be honest calvary chapel kicked our butts the reformed

02:09:52.640 folk got we got our butts kicked i did pretty decent we were you know four weeks and part of

02:09:58.740 that is because we didn't own a building we got kicked out but the point is we all you know just

02:10:04.080 about all of us, there were maybe two or three exceptions of guys who never closed, but just

02:10:08.540 about all of us failed. And the only question is by how much, what varying degree. But some of the

02:10:15.200 biggest players on the field that did the best, that did the best were like, I remember thinking

02:10:21.140 when COVID first happened, I remember thinking, thank you, Lord. We've been pushing against

02:10:25.960 word of faith ministries, mega churches with 2000 people that just cultivate a mystical

02:10:33.500 experience with the dimmed lights, you know, and the fog machines and the loud music and all this

02:10:38.140 kind of stuff and just emotionally manipulate people. But all that requires, what that requires

02:10:44.140 is an in-person, you know, phenomenon type experience. And with COVID now, their doors

02:10:50.640 will be closed and it's going to be ministries that actually have substance, you know, the content

02:10:55.560 that will last, you know, because they'll still be able to broadcast, you know, their sermons and

02:10:59.840 that content will stand on its own two feet. But anybody who was requiring, you know, or depending

02:11:05.560 on an in-person mystical experience with fog machines and laser lights and gold dust and the

02:11:11.580 air vents, those guys will shut down. You know what happened? All these charismatic churches

02:11:16.600 put next to their cross outside their church building an American flag and said, 0.92

02:11:23.120 screw you, Joe Biden, and opened up. And the reformed guys were close. And I was like, 0.91

02:11:28.560 what in the world is going on? I remember looking at that and thinking of like C3. I remember I was 0.99

02:11:34.880 in San Diego, C3 became, you know, they rebranded and became Awakened or something like that. And

02:11:42.220 I was like, oh, you know, the C3, you know, and they were like the Bill Johnson, you know, type 0.84

02:11:47.340 church, you know, and I was like, C3 is done for. This is like a week into COVID. And I was like, 0.72

02:11:52.280 well, COVID sucks, but, you know, praise God, C3, you know, they'll be done. Like two weeks later, 1.00

02:11:58.560 two weeks later, they're doing church and Charlie Kirk is there, you know, and, you know, and I

02:12:04.100 have my, you know, differences with Charlie Kirk, but they're doing church, Charlie Kirk is there 1.00

02:12:09.440 and, and all these, you know, Calvary Chapel, Arminian and charismatic C3 type, like all of 1.00

02:12:16.660 them do. And so my point, long way of saying, I wish, I wish that the dividing line had been 1.00

02:12:23.680 doctrine. I wish that as God kept throwing providential bombs, cultural bombs, political

02:12:29.580 bombs, these tests, as the Lord kept winnowing and testing us with culture and politics, I wish

02:12:36.100 that as we got cultural and political tests, that doctrine made the difference. And I think we just

02:12:45.240 have to admit as Reformed guys, we just have to sit here and admit it didn't. Now, we can argue 0.98

02:12:50.940 about whether it should have you know and and i'd like to think it should have but it did not

02:12:57.000 it did not um there there were calvary chapel did better than reform baptist on the whole

02:13:03.080 um c3 and and mega church seeker sensitive charismatic churches did better than uh than

02:13:11.080 the pca on the whole with covid um and then and then with wokeness it's like well we we finally

02:13:16.700 you know we finally were putting the woke away and we beat wokeness we didn't beat wokeness

02:13:20.280 uh the daily jew beat wokeness ben shapiro and the daily wire did more against wokeness matt

02:13:26.880 matt walsh deserves more credit for putting the woke away than any reformed pastor alive you know

02:13:34.600 and so that like those were the moments where i was like okay i i'm a church man i'm a christian

02:13:39.120 i'm not i'm not leaving the church i'm i pastor a church i'm not leaving the church it's still

02:13:43.320 ultimately eternally you're eventually going to have to stand before god and you need your soul

02:13:46.960 to be saved. This is of utmost eternal importance. I'm never walking away. But in my day-to-day life,

02:13:54.440 I want to make a difference because I'm a Christian, but I'm also a father. I've got a

02:14:01.200 wife and kids, and I want them to be able to live in America, a country that has at least some

02:14:07.740 semblance of the country that I grew up in, and hopefully by God's grace, better than the country

02:14:13.140 that I had to grow up in. I want them to be able to buy a home, afford to buy a home, be able to

02:14:17.840 get a job, be able to have kids of their own. I want them to be able to have a tangible future.

02:14:26.580 And as soon as I started thinking about that, I was like, yeah, okay. I will always be a Christian

02:14:31.740 if Christ keeps me, and I believe he will, that he'll lose none of those that the Father gives

02:14:37.720 to him. And I'll always be a churchman. I don't always have to be a pastor, to be honest. Like

02:14:42.080 that one. There's no verse in the Bible that says, you know, Joel Webman must be, but I'm always

02:14:45.880 going to be a Christian. I'm always going to be a churchman, whether that's as a pastor or whether

02:14:49.660 it's a lay elder or whether that's a member, whatever that is. But in my day-to-day life,

02:14:56.960 outside of the Lord's day, I'm going to do everything I can and partner with just about

02:15:02.720 everyone I can within reason to absolutely give everything I've got, to destroy Marxism, 0.66

02:15:10.940 to destroy the post-war consensus to destroy globalism destroy feminism destroy zionism

02:15:17.740 destroy these things that all want to destroy my kids and um and that has made me some weird

02:15:24.440 friends along the way that's made me some some theonomist friends it's made me some jd hall

02:15:29.380 who despised theonomist friends it's made me some calvin robinson friends and some steve days

02:15:35.700 friends and it's made me uh it's made me a lot of friends i wouldn't have expected and it's made me

02:15:41.200 10 times as many enemies and here we are so you know any final thoughts for today yeah i was gonna

02:15:47.460 say i got kicked out of uh an event with rodney howard brown in like 2017 2018 out of somewhere

02:15:53.280 along there um he was preaching nearby um he he didn't share the gospel at all he

02:16:00.160 a lady got up to preach long story short uh i got thrown out i'm literally thrown like on the ground

02:16:07.580 like i so um imagine my uh my horror when after covid happens i we didn't shut down

02:16:18.960 and i was being told by master seminary graduates that i was in rebellion against god because of

02:16:27.200 the interpretation of romans 13 that they got from john mcarthur right john mcarthur's church

02:16:32.500 was shut down this is long before i think you said 10 weeks however long it was this was

02:16:37.140 before he decided to open up and this guy that i couldn't stand rodney howard brown

02:16:43.060 who may be a wee little bit heretic had got arrested in florida they threw him in jail

02:16:49.840 for keeping his church open and that really changed my view on the you know kind of like

02:16:59.740 being overly simplistic with world war ii churchill good hitler bad and you're like

02:17:07.020 hitler was not maybe as great as you think he was um did i say churchill that's that's

02:17:13.460 church clip out of that church was not as good as what we as what they say was um but but we're

02:17:20.120 overly simplistic sometimes in terms of these guys are good guys these guys are bad guys i think

02:17:26.620 there's a lot we can learn from a lot of people for example i could learn from rodney howard brown

02:17:30.780 not to lick the government's boots in a health crisis that i couldn't learn from john mcarthur

02:17:34.900 for a while and so i think there's a lot of iron that can sharpen iron in these types of situations

02:17:41.200 between Christians, even if we don't have a hundred percent agreement on certain issues.

02:17:46.120 Amen. Amen. And people come around. I love that you said the Holy Spirit leads people.

02:17:52.960 We eventually come around. It doesn't mean the doctrine doesn't matter. Our conference is going

02:17:57.420 to have plenty of doctrine. It will. But also, yeah, we're doing multiple panels at this. It's

02:18:03.620 not just sitting there for lectures, but it's going to be a lot of space for networking and

02:18:09.600 talking and discussing, and then even baked into the, you know, the main events is a lot of panels

02:18:14.640 with too many people probably, um, on these panels. And then one of them being a debate,

02:18:19.500 like, so informal disagreement and then formal disagreement, lots of disagreement. Um, because

02:18:26.180 honestly, like we just, we're, uh, we're not doing so hot right now. Um, evangelicalism and, uh, we

02:18:35.420 need to, we need to figure some things out. We need to be willing to have some conversations

02:18:39.880 that previously we haven't been willing to have, uh, with different guys, uh, that, that in, you

02:18:45.340 know, in a previous life, we may not have found ourselves on stage with. And, um, yeah. And, and

02:18:51.800 if, you know, it like, if Calvin gets up there and, uh, and says that Mary is the queen of heaven

02:18:58.360 and, uh, and that apart from praying to her, you can't be saved then. Yeah. Then, you know, in my,

02:19:03.600 in my next moment of coming up on stage, I'm going to have to publicly rebuke that. And I will.

02:19:09.300 But aside from that, if he does what I asked him to speak on, which is I watched Trash World

02:19:14.580 devour and destroy my own country, namely Great Britain in his case, and I see signs of life in

02:19:20.940 America, there's hope still, right? Like in many ways for England, it's over. But for America, 0.56

02:19:26.920 there's still a chance. And I'm coming here to help you save your country and tell you what I've

02:19:31.740 learned along the way and speak to culture and politics, um, then that's, that's exactly what

02:19:36.900 I asked them to do. And then in the panels, when we talk about, all right, now who's included in

02:19:40.980 this project and what does that mean? And, and we, you know, we maybe get a little bit rowdy and

02:19:44.800 I think we need a conference like that. I think we need a conference like that. And, um, and you

02:19:51.300 know what, if, if in 2020, all the reformed guys, you know, stood strong, um, against tyranny and,

02:19:57.960 and all the guys with theology we disagree with were the ones that folded,

02:20:02.080 then maybe we'd be in a different boat.

02:20:03.760 But that's not how it shook out.

02:20:05.080 You want the conference with only the reformed guys?

02:20:07.260 Then let me say this to you, reformed guys.

02:20:09.320 You should have done better, right?

02:20:11.440 You think reformed guys are the only ones worthy of being heard?

02:20:14.000 Well, you had your chance to prove it, and you failed.

02:20:17.080 You failed. 0.99

02:20:17.640 You have proved to the whole country and every Christian in it 0.99

02:20:21.680 that the Calvary Chapel guys and the Anglo-Catholic guy

02:20:27.120 and this guy over here and this guy over here, that they actually have something to say because

02:20:32.920 you got caught with your pants down in a providential moment when the church needed you

02:20:39.580 and you folded like a cheap suit and a bunch of other guys that you were despising, they ended up

02:20:44.680 being heroes. So that's how, if you don't like my conference, well, I blame you. This is how you get

02:20:52.020 a conference like Trash World with Joel Webben. You get podcasts like mine. It's the same as

02:20:57.100 Andrew Tate. It's like, oh, Andrew Tate, all that. Andrew Tate's horrible. Andrew Tate is going to

02:21:02.180 hell. Andrew Tate is a pimp. And feminism is the environment that creates Andrew Tate's. 1.00

02:21:09.520 So if you don't want Andrew Tate, it's one thing to say Andrew Tate's bad. It's another to literally 0.98

02:21:16.520 to literally be the quintessential chiefs of the reformed longhouse that emasculates every

02:21:26.100 single young man and then have the audacity to decry Andrew Tate. I'm like, could you be any

02:21:33.440 more dense? Could you be any more hypocritical? I tweeted out just the other day, I said, 1.00

02:21:38.940 feminism is bad. Andrew Tate is bad. Both are bad. But one is in your church. 0.91

02:21:44.120 only one of them is in your church um this idea that you know every young man in our church is

02:21:50.320 listening to andrew tate and following him on on you know on culture or on politics or doctrine

02:21:55.840 you know i i i don't buy it i personally i i pastor a church that is arguably one of the

02:22:02.360 most conservative churches in the country with you know like like my my opposition would say

02:22:08.780 you know well joel you're going to attract you yeah i i do attract some some rowdy young men

02:22:13.340 And even among those young men, I have not met one of them that says, I listened to Andrew Tick.

02:22:18.420 Not one.

02:22:20.260 But what I do see pervasive in the church today is feminism. 1.00

02:22:25.660 So, yeah.

02:22:26.300 So, you know, if you want a perfectly doctrinally aligned conference with all your guys who believe all the same things that you believe, I understand the benefit to that.

02:22:37.900 I've done that.

02:22:39.500 I've gone to those conferences.

02:22:40.860 I kind of, you know, somewhat hosted one of those conferences.

02:22:43.740 I get it.

02:22:44.820 But if you want that, then your team needs to prove their salt.

02:22:51.920 And I don't feel like our team has, myself included in that.

02:22:54.940 We have not proven that we have all the answers because when the big questions came and landed

02:23:01.460 in our lap, we fumbled.

02:23:03.800 So, all right.

02:23:04.820 Well, I feel like that's it for today.

02:23:06.840 One more time, J.D., can you tell our listeners where they can follow you?

02:23:10.860 yeah you can follow me at insight uh to insight um spell it real quick substack you can uh well

02:23:18.140 the first insight is you know like seeing things insight and the second insight is like inciting

02:23:23.840 like inciting a riot and the number two insight to insight um if you just google the words and

02:23:30.400 then put substack or jd hall you'll find it you can also find my work at protestia insider which

02:23:36.080 is behind their paywall it's the same thing that insight to insight is um and uh you can follow me

02:23:41.520 at at lost my hats on x cool do you um are you hopping on podcasts every now and then with

02:23:49.260 protestio or is it mainly just just right now just writing uh this week yeah i'll be back with david

02:23:55.000 weekly uh starting well last night oh really okay and is that david morrell yeah is that how you say

02:24:03.040 is it david it's moral actually and i do an audio version of the substack each day monday through

02:24:10.660 saturday but it's just me reading the article i'm not really uh doing it a real you know

02:24:15.400 uh typical podcast but you can get it on spotify or you know from your substack app in case you

02:24:21.380 want to listen on the go on the go you know they're usually about 20-25 minutes long i write

02:24:27.020 long articles and give you lots of reading material. And half my material at Insight to

02:24:33.140 Insight is on this side of the paywall. Anything related to the gospel or evangelism is on this

02:24:39.700 side of the paywall because I want everybody to be able to access that. If I start getting

02:24:43.100 technical and start talking about the Nephilim or something that they might talk about on Haunted

02:24:48.380 Cosmos, Bigfoot and Space Aliens or whatever I feel like talking about, it might be on the

02:24:53.400 other side of the paywall, but insightinsight.com. Awesome. Great. Yeah, David, he's a good guy.

02:24:59.420 He's like you in the sense that early on, you know, we found ourselves on separate sides of

02:25:05.240 the aisle. You know, he's not a fan of Christian nationalism, but, you know, with each year that

02:25:09.380 goes by, it's like, okay, so like he doesn't like this label. I like this label, but he's fighting.

02:25:16.820 like he's you know like he's still doesn't he's still fighting what david doesn't like

02:25:22.640 is watching you guys be mistreated and maligned unfairly protestia has been the brunt of all of

02:25:30.300 that sometimes by the same people and they've endured it for years and so they have always

02:25:36.820 operated with integrity david has always been a person of integrity and all of the writers

02:25:41.480 and and even though they may not be in agreement with you or anybody else one thing that that

02:25:47.680 website does not do is cower uh or or let people just be mercilessly attacked for no good reason

02:25:55.020 and so that's why david has taken the position he has and i appreciate him and protest you very very

02:26:00.600 much awesome okay well thank you so much for coming on the show thank you to all of our

02:26:05.240 listeners and our supporters we appreciate everybody um just engaging the chat if you

02:26:10.300 can right here at the end. One more chance, if you could like the video and share it and subscribe

02:26:14.880 on YouTube if you haven't already, but especially like the video and share it to help it get out.

02:26:20.100 Thanks for all the super chats and the generosity. Thank you guys for praying for our ministry,

02:26:24.700 continuing to encourage and support our ministry. And Lord willing, we will see you guys next week.

02:26:30.780 Our weekly schedule is Monday, Wednesday, Friday at 3 p.m. Central Time. Again, that's Monday,

02:26:36.540 Wednesday, Friday at 3 p.m. Central Time. And the last thing that we have also is the Friday

02:26:42.900 special. So be on the lookout. That's tonight at 8 p.m. Central Time, the Friday special. That's

02:26:48.940 with me and Pastor Andrew Isker. We're right in the middle of a series on all things Israel,

02:26:54.460 all about what is Judeo-Christian whatever, and what should we think about dispensationalism or

02:27:02.060 Zionism and all those kinds of things, the modern state of Israel. What is the Christian,

02:27:07.000 what is the biblical Christian view of this? So that's going to, I can't even remember what

02:27:10.740 episode we're on now, but probably episode six or seven at this point, we'll be dropping tonight

02:27:15.700 at 8 p.m. Central Time. Nathan said it'll be episode eight. So it's a nine-part series. So

02:27:20.300 this is the second to last episode tonight at 8 p.m. And then the last episode will be next week.

02:27:25.340 All right. Thank you guys for tuning in. God bless. We'll see you next week.

02:27:32.060 Thank you.

The NXR Podcast - February 28, 2025

THE LIVESTREAM - The Institutional Gatekeepers With No Gate - Special Guest JD Hall

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