The NXR Podcast - THE LIVESTREAM - The State Must Correct The Church

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00:00:30.000 In AD 324, the controversy over Arianism was dividing Emperor Constantine's recently unified Roman Empire.

00:00:39.060 Constantine had converted a mere decade previously and achieved spectacular success on the battlefield over his rival Licinius.

00:00:48.540 But he was dismayed to return and find that the religion and church that he had come to love was so torn apart with squabbling, division, and dissensions.

00:00:58.100 So what happened?

00:01:00.000 Did the church realize their need for clarity on the divinity of the sun

00:01:03.860 and come together at Nicaea because they knew that they had to hammer out these doctrines?

00:01:09.480 Did Alexander and Arius sit down willingly for the good of the church?

00:01:15.300 Nope.

00:01:17.100 Instead, believe it or not, it was Emperor Constantine who issued an imperial summons

00:01:23.020 to the warring bishops of the east and west demanding that they convene at Nicaea.

00:01:28.900 The result of that month-long council was the Nicene Creed, a creed that has stood the test of time and is the foundational confession of practically all Christian traditions 1,700 years later.

00:01:44.360 Now this happened again under Emperor Theodosius 1 and 2, at Constantinople and Ephesus, under Marcion at Chalcedon, under Justinian again at Constantinople, and on and on it goes.

00:02:01.820 This pattern plays out again and again.

00:02:05.700 The church wars, divides, errs, and even apostatizes.

00:02:11.400 And the means of correction that God uses is often the state.

00:02:17.400 Now, this causes us Americans in particular to bristle in protest,

00:02:22.300 but it is undeniable that the bulk of church reform has been initiated,

00:02:27.440 carried out, and completed at the hand of the sovereign.

00:02:31.820 Perhaps for all of our spirituality in airtight systematic theology, we have forgotten the ordinary practical means that God uses to save, purify, and protect his church.

00:02:45.320 This episode is brought to you by our premier sponsors, Armored Republic and Reese Fund, as well as our Patreon members and our faithful donors.

00:02:55.620 You can join our Patreon by going to patreon.com forward slash right response ministries, or

00:03:03.740 you can donate by going to right response ministries.com forward slash donate.

00:03:10.360 Today, we're going to defend the forgotten and controversial historical pattern that

00:03:15.920 God uses the state to correct his often airing bride.

00:03:20.580 So tune in now.

00:03:25.620 all right welcome back good monday afternoon good monday the market is doing the best that

00:03:41.540 it's done in a long time i don't want to get too hopeful yeah we'll see but uh it's good afternoon

00:03:46.360 good to be back the title it's probably in our top 10 most controversial the state must correct

00:03:52.480 the church and I'm the one who chose it. I wrote this episode. And my only ask would be, if you're

00:03:57.000 listening to this and you've already said, ah, you might have jumped the shark on this one. This is a

00:04:01.260 little bit too far. I would like to do my best to at least make the case from history. Not that this

00:04:05.880 must necessarily always be the case, that the state will always be the agent that reforms and

00:04:11.720 corrects and bolsters up the church. It doesn't have to always be that way. But my argument would

00:04:16.580 be that to this point we're coming up on I mean 2033 so that's what about eight years we'll have

00:04:23.700 2,000 years since the life death and resurrection of Jesus and so in these first 2,000 years almost

00:04:28.980 undeniably the pattern has been as I'm going to do my best to show you that the ordinary means God

00:04:34.240 has used to care for his bride to sustain her to purify her even has been the ordinary means of

00:04:40.960 the state and its authority and its power and so my only ask would be reserve judgment for the two

00:04:46.620 hours here allow me to make my case and uh if you're convinced by scripture by church history

00:04:51.340 and by reason um that would be the goal so let's go ahead and dive right in wes before you do that

00:04:58.860 we just got a 300 super chat oh my goodness so and it's not surprising who it's from because

00:05:04.320 this guy has been so consistent and faithful and encouraging thank you uh ben huffsteadler

00:05:10.260 Thank you, Ben.

00:05:11.440 He said, hit the like button, boys.

00:05:13.400 Stay strong.

00:05:14.780 We need more testosterone in the world, more men, men that are men of God as a foundation.

00:05:20.640 Second, a husband, and third, a father.

00:05:23.220 Thank you, Ben.

00:05:23.800 We appreciate your support.

00:05:25.000 Ben, let us know in the chat if you're coming to the conference.

00:05:27.560 We'd love to meet you.

00:05:28.140 Yeah, if you're coming to the Crisis King Conference.

00:05:28.720 Whether it's ours or even in Ogden.

00:05:30.580 It'd be great.

00:05:30.940 Great to talk.

00:05:31.720 Really appreciate the support.

00:05:33.280 All right.

00:05:33.740 So to lay the foundation, I want to get into the three spheres of authority that God has

00:05:37.720 instituted.

00:05:38.160 So whether you hold to a classical two kingdoms kind of framework for the church and the state,

00:05:42.840 the church and the state at the left and the right hand of Christ, he governs over both

00:05:46.000 of them, but governs in different ways, or a theonomic approach, that the Mosaic law

00:05:50.680 and its general equity is what's to be used in society.

00:05:54.040 So whether you're classical two kingdoms or whether you're theonomic, I think both would

00:05:57.320 agree that it seems that God has instituted three spheres that have similarities in their

00:06:02.080 authority, their structure, and their power.

00:06:04.220 So Nate, you can go ahead and show this graph.

00:06:05.640 We'll leave it on the screen for a little while because there's a lot of text in there.

00:06:09.020 But I think this is the most helpful way to kind of look at it.

00:06:12.580 So you have God at the top.

00:06:14.180 All authority, be it in the state, be it in the home, or be it in the church, comes from God.

00:06:18.900 It's given.

00:06:19.880 It's lent.

00:06:20.480 It's bestowed upon a father, upon a magistrate, or upon an elder.

00:06:24.580 So God is the ultimate authority.

00:06:26.060 I think of even in the family.

00:06:27.120 Children, obey your parents and whatever they say.

00:06:29.940 No, children, obey your parents in the Lord because even a parent's authority comes first from God.

00:06:34.760 And so God is the highest authority.

00:06:37.060 And he's instituted three spheres, the state, the family, and the church. 0.96

00:06:41.480 Each of these spheres are led by men.

00:06:43.940 The state should ordinarily be led by male magistrates, emperors, kings, presidents, senators.

00:06:50.500 The church is led by pastors.

00:06:52.120 The only individual qualified to be a pastor are, first and foremost, men.

00:06:55.700 All these are male-led.

00:06:57.020 They're all male-led.

00:06:58.140 Families led by fathers.

00:06:59.680 He gives also tools of enforcement.

00:07:01.120 So the state carries a physical sword, and Paul even emphasizes he doesn't carry it in vain.

00:07:06.260 It's not for show.

00:07:07.300 It's not ceremonial.

00:07:08.500 The state has the sword for the evildoer.

00:07:10.640 It's a physical sword, real physical punishment.

00:07:13.440 The church has a spiritual sword.

00:07:15.580 The church can, wielding the sword, cut out from the kingdom, divide, cut through error

00:07:21.940 and falsehood.

00:07:22.980 In the family, the father has the rod of correction.

00:07:25.700 So you have male leadership in all of these spheres, and you have rod and correction and

00:07:31.260 instruction metered out by those leaders.

00:07:34.400 Now, you can see that the state primarily, with these arrows, it's providing physical

00:07:38.220 protection.

00:07:39.180 It protects the family.

00:07:41.940 It is the state's job to make sure criminals and evildoers are off the streets, and you

00:07:45.740 can sleep, stay safe at night.

00:07:47.780 Now, certainly at the local level, some of that belongs to the father.

00:07:50.500 But in the same way, too, it protects the church.

00:07:52.480 It protects the church from terrorism.

00:07:53.920 It procures for it the ordinary context in which it does its ministry.

00:08:00.500 Now, the church, it doesn't physically protect, but it spiritually protects.

00:08:04.780 The church is the spiritual guard of the family.

00:08:07.920 If a father was to go off the rails spiritually in sin but not crime, it would be the church that corrects him. 0.96

00:08:15.380 I don't like that that church symbol looks like a mosque. 0.98

00:08:18.700 I was going to mention. 1.00

00:08:20.400 I think we could have done a little bit better on this church.

00:08:22.500 powerpoint there is no church icon ah and so that is a orthodox okay church it looks like something

00:08:29.800 out of aladdin like like it's led by a sultan or even worse something out of the well that is

00:08:33.820 eastern but i was gonna say or eastern orthodox um so you have the home the church and the state

00:08:39.140 when it comes to the state's role right here right this is what we're talking about there's

00:08:43.880 a difference between formal and informal authority nate you can go to the next slide

00:08:49.020 This is important to grasp.

00:08:50.420 So we talk a lot, as is right, I think, on this show about biblical patriarchy, the rule

00:08:54.580 of the husband in the home.

00:08:56.080 And it is rule.

00:08:57.320 And the husband has real formal authority.

00:08:59.300 You can see here I've delineated in his formal authority, the husband has the authority of

00:09:05.120 command.

00:09:06.460 He can command his wife and children to do things provided they are not sin.

00:09:10.580 The state, likewise, can command its citizens to do things that are not sin.

00:09:14.720 The state is given the physical sword for force.

00:09:16.640 that's not necessarily given to the husband. 0.68

00:09:18.780 The husband's authority is over everything. 0.53

00:09:20.760 Wives, be subject to your husband and everything. 0.93

00:09:22.680 The point is, strong authority from the top down. 0.99

00:09:25.840 But there is also an informal authority that those that would be,

00:09:28.920 in the biblical kind of pairing, superiors and inferiors,

00:09:31.920 those that are under authority have on those above them.

00:09:34.720 One of them would be counsel. 0.52

00:09:36.560 So whether it's citizens, whether it's a wife,

00:09:39.060 they still counsel, exhort, pray, appeal, encourage.

00:09:44.440 So it's not as though when we talk about the state,

00:09:46.640 reforming and correcting the church we're talking about a one-way street that only coming down from

00:09:51.120 the state are its reforms its corrections all these different things and never any point does

00:09:56.240 the church have an influence vertically above on the state this informal authority in the same way

00:10:02.720 the church is going to be profoundly influential on the realm of the state it's going to pray for

00:10:08.720 it it's going to rebuke it i think of john knox and queen mary yeah and council it's going to

00:10:14.880 command even say you must do this now the church itself is an institution doesn't pick up physical

00:10:20.360 swords right and go to war with the state but even in the strongest authority we have out there

00:10:25.840 husband wife the state over those that are to be subject to it there is still an a insistence

00:10:32.560 that those that are under authority those that are the inferiors have towards those above them

00:10:37.860 right it's like john the baptist you know to her it you know where he rebukes him you know john

00:10:42.020 the baptist is a minister of sorts he's a prophet you know preparing the way of the lord and herod

00:10:46.640 is the civil magistrate and he says he's not in john the baptist isn't in a position of the civil

00:10:51.520 magistrate and yet he looks to the civil magistrate and he says it is not lawful and he's not speaking

00:10:56.580 of herod's law he's speaking of the eternal and immutable law of god he's saying i don't care what

00:11:01.300 you think this is this is what's right it's not lawful for you to have your brother's wife

00:11:05.580 and he calls him to account and so and and what we're talking about here is ideally by the by

00:11:10.620 the grace of God. We're talking about the ideal situation of a Christian nation. Because I could

00:11:17.140 hear people listening to what you're saying, Wes, and being tempted to say, yeah, so the church has

00:11:22.060 an informal authority to rebuke the state, but that won't mean anything. No, the church's informal

00:11:28.320 authority of impressing upon Constantine the things of God had a massive effect in a Christian

00:11:35.700 nation, what you can, and under that context and those circumstances, then what you're

00:11:42.440 expecting is that the state is made up, at least, maybe not exclusively, but there are

00:11:46.820 bona fide, genuine Christians that make the state up and who listen to the church and

00:11:53.300 will be convicted by the church. 0.95

00:11:55.200 And so, they'll hear the church knowing that the church doesn't have the sword and it can't

00:11:58.140 through coercion enforce any edict, and yet they'll still hear the voice of the church

00:12:04.280 and say, in a sense, so long as they're speaking truthfully,

00:12:07.620 the voice of the church is the voice of God.

00:12:10.020 Absolutely.

00:12:10.440 Well, and on top of that, the church, in a largely Christianized society especially,

00:12:15.260 has a strong power to, in times of normal conduct,

00:12:22.060 to exhort the Christians to obey the state. 0.98

00:12:26.480 But they also will be the ones to say, 0.71

00:12:29.740 congregants, church, this is the line, and the state has crossed it,

00:12:33.760 And from this point on, civil disobedience is what is in order.

00:12:37.360 And that power to inform the populace of when the king or the government has gone against the law of God, as you say, is significant.

00:12:48.260 It should be used sparingly, only when it's actually been crossed.

00:12:51.880 But it is significant, especially if it's such that a majority of the people trust the voice of the church.

00:12:57.580 Right. I'll never forget.

00:12:58.980 Like I remember watching, we were actually, I think when I saw the clip, my wife and our kids and I were in Ogden visiting all the New Christendom guys and spending family time, you know, building snowmen and things like that. 1.00

00:13:13.980 But I remember that's when the clip went where Trump and Vance were in that cathedral, that church, and there was a female bishop who was like preaching this atrocious sermon, you know, about, I don't know, against people like Trump being a tyrant and toxic masculinity and how we need to, you know, let a bunch of more immigrants into the country. 1.00

00:13:42.280 and third worlders, you know, and invasion and all this kind of stuff.

00:13:45.560 And I remember, you know, Vance did kind of like his, you know, notorious, like where

00:13:50.980 he like looked over, you know, I think he looked at Trump or he looked at, and I remember

00:13:54.420 thinking, you know what, I would have no problem.

00:13:58.740 Like I adhere to sphere sovereignty and all those kinds of things, but I would have no

00:14:02.260 problem if in that moment in the promise of God, if Trump and Vance stood up and said,

00:14:06.360 you're done, sermon's over, president and vice president of the United States, you're

00:14:11.540 heretic take her out god i'm here for it yeah yep we'll get into some of that in a later segment

00:14:19.240 we got a 50 super chat super encouraging let's just hit it quick sundress supremacy honestly 0.84

00:14:25.040 that could be a man or a woman i i would 50 50 so i think just can i just say i don't want to

00:14:30.920 take credit that doesn't belong to me so i won't say it definitively but i'm going to say it with

00:14:34.840 a fairly high degree of uh of confidence i am almost positive that this youtube handle

00:14:41.140 was inspired by us probably i'm pretty sure what did i say that oh uh sundresses and sourdough yeah

00:14:47.980 yeah so i think i've seen a handle like that sundresses and sourdough that sounds like a

00:14:51.340 great uh go ahead sorry great startup 50 super chat thank you so much ma'am sir uh they said

00:14:57.700 this your critics have no sympathy for the young men and women who have been cut off from the wisdom

00:15:01.700 of our ancestors institutions hollowed out generational wisdom squandered thank you for

00:15:06.740 teaching biblical wisdom our elders forgot see you at the conference thanks so much thank you

00:15:11.440 and uh we'll look forward to to meeting you yeah wherever you are so so let's actually go back um

00:15:16.300 one of the things i think we've lost is the understanding of our christianity oh it's a

00:15:20.420 woman she said i have my husband's permission to spend his money perfect well we'll look forward

00:15:25.220 to seeing both of you at the at the conference but going all the way back even as mentioned

00:15:29.680 right there. How did Christianity get its start? For the first 200 years, not quite 200 years,

00:15:35.020 Christianity was persecuted. So if you remember Jerusalem, it falls in AD 70. That was the end,

00:15:39.900 obviously, of Christianity centered on just Jerusalem. And it spreads out. Obviously, 0.98

00:15:43.980 Paul carried it first with his missionary journeys. But the loss of Jerusalem as an

00:15:47.920 epicenter meant that Christianity spread throughout the Roman Empire. And it was persecuted severely.

00:15:52.760 The stories of the martyrs in the early, not just 10, 20 years of the church, but almost 150 years

00:15:59.560 especially through diocletian was incredible the church had no institution she had no building that

00:16:05.760 you could attend to the church was uh hunted down they were meeting in catacombs they were meeting

00:16:10.820 in catacombs they were meeting underground they had no luxury whatsoever and it's really an

00:16:16.000 incredible story and i love telling it because it's awesome and it also shows how god works

00:16:21.280 christianity is still the vast minority at the after diocletian leaves the throne the persecution

00:16:26.140 camps down but it's still not an official recognized religion it has no status it has

00:16:30.380 no relation to the public square and so Constantine who is an up-and-coming son of a general who's not

00:16:35.860 necessarily the heir to the throne but is challenging Maxentius Rome had gotten so big

00:16:40.280 at that point they couldn't even have one emperor it had been divided to a tetra out of three of

00:16:43.660 them but Constantine is the emperor who had achieved great success in the battlefield of

00:16:47.400 north and he was challenging Maxentius for control of Rome he wanted to rule the Roman Empire and so

00:16:53.320 it's this incredible battle, the battle of that Milovan bridge where he deposes Maxentius, kills

00:16:58.140 him, and essentially conquers Rome. And then 10 years later, he does so with Licentius and he

00:17:02.680 conquers all of Rome and essentially unites the whole empire once again. But it's the night before,

00:17:08.080 this is in 312, before that fateful battle at the bridge that he receives a vision or a dream.

00:17:13.880 And literally this vision or dream changes the course of the West and of Christianity because

00:17:19.240 the night before he has a dream and he says he sees in the sky the resurrected christ appearing

00:17:23.720 to him and his sign so the word christos in greek the first two letters of it are chai and ro right

00:17:29.720 and brought together they form a symbol that's been associated with christianity since constantine's

00:17:34.280 time and so he sees it he relates this to eusebius the church father and he sees this sign in the

00:17:39.160 sky of the chiro and he hears the voice of christ telling him by this sign conquer which how awesome

00:17:46.440 is that the resurrected christ at the right time the church is persecuted she's battered she's a

00:17:51.480 minority she's been fighting for hundreds of years just to even exist and survive and then god comes

00:17:57.440 to the ascendant emperor shows him a sign in the sky and says by this sign and not even the sign

00:18:02.460 of god like i god the father i the god of the israelites but by the sign of christ right go

00:18:08.200 and conquer and it's the next year that the edict of milan is issued and the edict of milan again

00:18:13.540 changes the West in its entirety because it doesn't make Christianity the official state

00:18:17.740 religion, but Constantine converts, and he then allows Christian worship.

00:18:22.520 And very quickly, in the space of 10 years, instead of pagan priests or just pagans in

00:18:27.420 general, it's Christian bishops that are ascendant to their counseling on diocese,

00:18:32.120 their serving positions of political office, and Christianity becomes greatly favored in

00:18:36.260 the nation to the point where now the emperor, he attends in, I think it's 320, he attends

00:18:41.300 the Hagia Sophia, the emperor of Rome enters a Christian church. Just 200 years, not even quite

00:18:48.440 200 years from the death of Christ, the ministry of the apostles. And then it's all the way up to

00:18:53.820 that point. So, it's kind of, we were talking about before the show, how typical is it of the

00:18:59.340 church? So, she's free now to practice. She can actually establish churches. Now, her bishops are

00:19:04.840 ascendant in political office. She can hold and be in the army. Less than 10 years in, and the church 0.98

00:19:10.380 is squabbling non-stop yep so that sounds like a church that and so you're telling me that

00:19:17.880 that god in his mercy and providence secures their freedom and liberty that they're experiencing

00:19:24.040 unprecedented uh peace unprecedented peace and prosperity and all these things and the church

00:19:30.280 says you know what we should fight each other that's that sounds right and they weren't fighting

00:19:35.820 over something obscure so it wasn't over baptism believe it or not it was whether jesus is god i

00:19:42.020 love how just you didn't even didn't even crack a smile but you straight up just called baptism

00:19:47.100 it wasn't something obscure like baptism it wasn't yeah baptism we all agree baptism is primary

00:19:54.640 what's obscure or at least secondary and we would argue maybe you know arguably even tertiary is

00:19:59.320 mode of baptism right like that that argument comes up again and again and again and like

00:20:04.340 here's the deal guys um you well it's kind of like what we're talking about right now but um 0.96

00:20:10.380 they're transing kids and murdering babies you gotta you gotta destroy the leftist uh before 0.93

00:20:15.360 you argue about whether or not that presbyterian who's been a faithful christian for 50 years 0.97

00:20:19.780 but who was sprinkled as a baby is allowed to take the lord's supper in your baptist church and it

00:20:23.900 does matter but here's the deal it matters both sides are valid is the point whether you're

00:20:28.520 baptized by immersion which is the minority of the world or baptized as a baby like that is about

00:20:34.040 85% of the Christian world right now.

00:20:36.340 So whether it's one or the other, we would say both 1.00

00:20:38.100 are valid baptisms, provided they're done 0.91

00:20:40.200 in a Christian church, in the name of the triune

00:20:42.200 God. So it matters, 0.95

00:20:44.100 but on both sides, you have Christians. 0.93

00:20:46.560 When it comes to Arianism,

00:20:48.040 is Jesus Christ God?

00:20:50.260 That's what they were arguing about. And so

00:20:52.120 Constantine writes a letter in 324.

00:20:54.180 Before he even calls the council, he writes a letter and he

00:20:56.140 says, please, Alexander and Arius

00:20:58.200 were the two bishops that were warring. He says,

00:21:00.000 I'm trying just to go to church and it's rivaled

00:21:02.200 with bickering and back and forth.

00:21:04.040 And there's questions about when to celebrate Easter.

00:21:06.000 There's questions over, pretty surprisingly, whether ministers that charged usury would be allowed.

00:21:11.200 Nicaea actually said no, that any minister that charged usury were to be deposed of their office.

00:21:16.020 But they're fighting, fighting, fighting.

00:21:17.060 Were they talking about icons, too?

00:21:18.100 What?

00:21:18.600 Icons?

00:21:19.220 Icons don't really come into later in the iconoclasm of the 7th and the 8th centuries.

00:21:22.880 But all that being said, all of this happens.

00:21:25.420 And they don't come together of their own, like we mentioned in the cold open.

00:21:28.560 But it's the emperor, under the pain of the sword, who says, you're going to get together.

00:21:33.460 and here's what he didn't do they didn't come in and then he gave his opinions and argued for which

00:21:38.600 side he reigned over it he saw the proceedings but he said bishops on the magistrate i'm the

00:21:44.460 emperor i'm not a theologian he wasn't even baptized at the time he's only baptized a couple

00:21:48.440 weeks before his death because they thought that baptism was intended to kind of clear all the sins

00:21:52.920 that you had so he's not even baptized but he doesn't come in as the theologian but he says

00:21:57.520 listen church you are split up with division i think at one point over 50 percent of the roman

00:22:02.140 empire was Aryan. Like this was not just like 5% of people in this remote little island. Like half

00:22:08.080 of the empire. Well, because it was a political battle as much as anything else. Exactly. The

00:22:12.480 church was already dividing east and west. Yep. But your point, Wes, is you're saying he doesn't

00:22:16.360 come in and render from on high a theological conclusion. He doesn't say, I as emperor am going

00:22:22.240 to tell you what the theological truth of the matter is. But instead he says, no, I recognize

00:22:26.900 that this theological determination belongs to the church,

00:22:30.340 but you guys aren't getting together to sort it out.

00:22:33.260 And so what he does for us is not a conclusion,

00:22:35.260 but he forces them to actually have the discussion.

00:22:37.960 I'm going to put you in a room until this gets solved.

00:22:41.060 Under threat of death. 0.99

00:22:41.940 Under threat of death.

00:22:42.660 Imperial order.

00:22:43.160 He did put his finger on the scale.

00:22:46.000 I mean, it would be like a 50-50 tie

00:22:48.520 and the vice president coming in, casting a vote.

00:22:50.520 So, Hoshius of Cordoba was a bishop who Constantine just really admired, and he was an older bishop at this point.

00:22:59.700 And Hoshius had his ear, and he was whispering to him through the whole proceedings, homoousian versus homoousias.

00:23:09.640 Right. 0.98

00:23:10.740 Same substance or like substance. 0.94

00:23:13.140 Yes, and Hoshius' position is what Constantine ended up supporting.

00:23:19.600 It's not that he made the decision, but he did, I would say, kind of, he did put his thumb on the scale a little bit. 0.95

00:23:25.300 And he had the right bias.

00:23:26.220 Yeah, he did.

00:23:27.000 He had the right bias.

00:23:27.600 But the biggest thing is he made them duke it out.

00:23:30.020 It would be as though the civil magistrate, you know, came to all these churches that are fighting about Christ as king and anti-Semitism and said,

00:23:35.740 Look, here, guys, we're not going to make the final decision for you, but we all know that there are problems with Israel, and you're going to sort it out.

00:23:42.680 You're going to get locked in a room until it gets figured out. 0.98

00:23:45.160 Yep.

00:23:45.720 Let's pull up this quote, Nathan, from Thomas Watson.

00:23:47.740 This is really good.

00:23:48.360 This is Thomas Watson, the great Puritan, who were no fans of Rome Catholicism or anything

00:23:53.080 like that, but listen to what he says.

00:23:55.500 So this is, well, Thomas Watson, there we go.

00:23:59.240 So he's commentating on the fifth commandment, which is honoring fathers.

00:24:02.340 Fathers are not just your biological father or grandfather, but there are different types

00:24:05.780 of fathers, and one of those is the political father.

00:24:07.980 So I'm going to read this quickly.

00:24:09.340 Thomas Watson says this, the political father, the magistrate, is the father of his country.

00:24:13.080 He is to be an encourager of virtue, a punisher of vice, a father to the widow and orphan.

00:24:17.240 Such a father was Job.

00:24:18.820 Quote, I was a father to the poor, the cause which I knew not, I searched out.

00:24:22.480 As magistrates are fathers, so especially the king, who's the head of magistrates, is a political father.

00:24:26.960 He's placed as the son among the lesser stars.

00:24:29.280 The scripture calls kings fathers. 0.81

00:24:31.420 Kings shall be your nursing fathers, Isaiah 49.

00:24:34.080 They are to train up the subjects in piety, by good edicts and example, and nurse them up in peace and piety.

00:24:40.060 Such nursing fathers were David, Hezekiah, Josiah, Constantine, and Theodosius.

00:24:45.580 I love that.

00:24:46.240 I mean, I remember doing an episode with Eric Kahn a while back where I had turned him on to Thomas Watson's Ten Commandments book because I had just read it myself.

00:24:54.820 And I was like, dude, you've got to check out this passage where Thomas Watson just throws it out there, doesn't even blink an eye.

00:25:03.340 He's like, yeah, great civil father, such as Constantine.

00:25:06.740 Right.

00:25:07.140 Such as Theodosius.

00:25:08.060 this is a puritan you know a puritan who like they literally i mean you're talking about people

00:25:12.680 who escaped tyranny from the state you know in great britain um you know casting edicts over

00:25:20.300 the church but here's the thing that it that's very different than what we're describing with

00:25:24.560 constantine what was going on with the you know the uh english puritans is the king was was just

00:25:31.580 trying he was just trying to tick them off like he was he was making them read from the sports

00:25:36.600 almanac the sunday morning yeah on a sunday morning in church so he was saying yeah you know

00:25:41.880 after you minister the sacraments and preach the word and these kinds of things you also in church

00:25:46.580 on the lord's day on the christian sabbath you need to read the um the scores from you know the

00:25:51.540 new england vikings versus you know whatever or patriots you know uh versus my dad i'm not i'm not

00:25:57.320 a sports guy because you don't have to read it on sunday morning right yeah exactly yeah but my

00:26:00.680 point is he was just rubbing it in their faces he was blaspheming the sabbath and you know and

00:26:05.520 doing these kinds of things. Constantine's not doing that. Constantine's saying, yeah,

00:26:09.280 it probably matters whether or not Jesus is God. Yep, exactly. That's different. Let's pull up

00:26:13.540 table one name. So this isn't just one time at one place at the very beginning an emperor or

00:26:19.740 the sovereign steps in. So these are the seven ecumenical councils of the church prior to the

00:26:24.140 great schism in 1054 between the east and the west. All seven of these councils were called by

00:26:30.540 emperors. The Nicene Creed, the second council of Nicaea, Constantinople 1, 2, and 3. This is where

00:26:38.340 they're defending against Nestorianism. This is where they're affirming the divinity of the Holy

00:26:42.920 Spirit. This is where they're hammering out the nature, the essence, the deity of Christ. These

00:26:48.620 are foundational documents for the first thousand years of Christendom. And if we're not even at

00:26:52.640 2,000 years, that means at the very least, you may disagree with my final thesis, the first thousand

00:26:57.360 years the church was guarded uh corralled helped stewarded by not at the individual level in the

00:27:06.580 pants kicked in the pants not by the not by the emperor coming in on sunday morning and saying my

00:27:10.940 goodness these curtains the colors off you got to fix them but by and large the church is an

00:27:16.040 institution in the west you have emperor emperor emperor emperor calling councils instructing them

00:27:22.260 to get together and that is it's undeniable that is the means that god used for the first thousand

00:27:27.300 years real quick i want to address this question from neville he said question would you prefer

00:27:31.140 roman catholic christian nationalism over what we have now in the united states for me it's a

00:27:36.260 resounding yes yep and catholic catholic christian nationalism is uh called integralism and it would

00:27:41.700 typically have a monarch and that monarch would be reigning over both the civil and the ecclesiastical

00:27:46.880 still be better than what we have here it'd be better than what we have we're not saying that's

00:27:50.860 the ideal we are protestants yep but um you just we we don't we often do not fully grasp how bad

00:27:58.240 things really are yeah anything else to add gentlemen in this first section before we get

00:28:01.960 into i just wanted to mention the reformers uh it goes beyond just the um the seat in rome because

00:28:09.540 charlemagne did something similar um and he actually lobbied in favor of adopting the filioque

00:28:16.060 term. He did quite a bit of reform. He himself

00:28:20.420 reformed the monastic orders, and he did

00:28:25.920 correct, put his thumb on the scale pretty strongly to correct some of the

00:28:30.000 theological aberrances that were going on. So this moved even across

00:28:34.140 into Western Europe as France and the rest of 0.60

00:28:38.080 Christianity was spreading through Western Europe. This was not just a product

00:28:42.020 of Rome or of Constantinople. This tradition carried on as the church and Christendom

00:28:48.920 continued to move west. Absolutely. All right. So I want to get into, well, it's the first

00:28:54.280 thousand years, but since then that stopped. We'll answer those objections here in our second

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00:31:33.100 All right, well, welcome back.

00:31:34.620 So we established first thousand years.

00:31:36.720 That's the means that God used.

00:31:38.000 But what about leading into the Reformation?

00:31:39.840 So the Middle Ages, into the medieval time period.

00:31:42.320 One could argue that a number of the councils,

00:31:44.600 so an emperor has not called an ecumenical council in a very long time.

00:31:47.640 And the councils that have been called since the Great Schism

00:31:50.060 have been largely called by the popes.

00:31:51.840 And you could say, well, there was a time where maybe the state stewarded the church,

00:31:54.700 but now it's the church that governs her own affairs, whether you're Catholic,

00:31:58.600 whether you're Protestant, or maybe we just don't need these things.

00:32:00.820 But what I want to kind of show is that what happened coming out of the Middle Ages

00:32:03.740 was that the Pope actually began to assume a type of civic responsibility.

00:32:08.960 Now, you can pull up quote number two here, or quote number one.

00:32:12.480 So this is from Pope Boniface VIII.

00:32:15.100 He's writing in 1302.

00:32:16.760 He's not necessarily speaking ex-cathedra here, so ex-cathedra in Roman Catholicism,

00:32:20.820 when the Pope occupies the seat of Peter in Rome

00:32:24.940 and speaks, he speaks infallibly.

00:32:26.740 And so some Protestants, they may get to say like,

00:32:29.680 well, if the Pope orders a hamburger and fries,

00:32:31.440 then that's infallible.

00:32:32.320 That's not exactly the case.

00:32:33.580 And that's not exactly the case here.

00:32:34.880 But this is a papal bull, unum sanctum, 1302.

00:32:38.280 And listen to what he says

00:32:39.040 and especially pay attention at the end.

00:32:40.480 So I'm gonna go quick here.

00:32:41.660 He says, for according to the blessed Dionysus,

00:32:43.440 it is a law of divinity that the lowest things

00:32:45.240 reach the highest place by intermediaries.

00:32:47.300 Then according to the order of the universe,

00:32:48.760 all things are not led back to order equally

00:32:50.420 lead immediately, but the lowest by the intermediary and the inferior by the superior. So what he's

00:32:55.320 about to do, he's about to make an argument that since spiritual things are good, are better than

00:32:59.680 the material, that the spiritual realm rules over the physical realm. Hence, we must recognize the

00:33:05.440 more clearly that spiritual power surpasses in dignity and nobility any temporal power, whatever,

00:33:12.520 as spiritual things surpass the temporal. This we see very clearly also by the payment,

00:33:16.900 benediction and consecration of the tithes but by the acceptance of power itself by the government

00:33:21.560 even of things pay attention to this part for with the truth as our witness it belongs to spiritual

00:33:26.160 power to establish the terrestrial power that's earthly power state power and to pass judgment

00:33:33.700 if it has not been good and so what pope boniface the eighth is arguing here is that because in

00:33:39.400 especially roman catholicism nature is something that's inherently flawed needs to be surpassed

00:33:44.540 elevated above by infusions of grace, that so too, then in the state, in Christendom, in Catholicism,

00:33:51.840 it would be the Pope established above. And he's the one sitting over this state and saying,

00:33:56.920 this is good. This is not. Excommunication from the Catholic Church would oftentimes mean

00:34:01.540 excommunication from the territory. And so even still, up through the Reformation, I would still 0.68

00:34:06.940 make the argument that it was a type of civil magistrate and state that continued to exercise

00:34:13.120 influence reform and what ultimately happened of course as we know they faltered greatly the 1300s

00:34:19.400 the 1400s the 1500s leading up to reformation it was the failure of the pope but not just as a

00:34:25.260 spiritual figure but as a state civil leader it was a failure across those lines that led to the

00:34:31.320 need for the protestant reformation right right anything to add to that no that's well said i

00:34:36.720 always think about you know with the protestant reformation unreformed but i always think like

00:34:40.840 it is a shame like it's a shame that councils weren't called it's a shame that luther was on

00:34:47.080 the run for his life that he wasn't you know given a fair hearing that like luther didn't want

00:34:53.000 to abandon the catholic church like he wanted to reform the catholic church and there's so many

00:34:58.580 things like you know we quote luther all the time but there's so many things that like protestants

00:35:02.720 at this point where like luther would be probably just as upset with us as he would be with you

00:35:09.120 know roman catholicism like i mean luther his view of the supper you know like a real presence um

00:35:15.880 his view of the perpetual virginity of mary his view like there are so many things where like

00:35:21.120 luther would look at us and he'd be like i didn't say any of that right you know yeah so let's get

00:35:25.640 to speaking of like to the church so john calvin if you have certain editions of the institutes

00:35:31.160 they're written actually to the king of france francis the first and that you can pull up this

00:35:35.160 back should be at the end quote number six and so calvin writes to him and he writes incredibly

00:35:39.520 respectfully and he begs the prince he's not writing to the pope laying out the christian

00:35:44.180 religion and the fathers and all of that but he's writing to the king he says your duty most serene

00:35:49.080 prince is not to shut either your ears or your mind against a cause involving such mighty interests

00:35:54.440 as these the glory of god is to be maintained on the earth and violet of the truth of god is to

00:35:58.880 preserve its dignity how the kingdom of christ is to continue among its compact and secure

00:36:02.520 this cause is worthy of your ear

00:36:04.700 worthy of your investigation

00:36:06.160 and worthy of your throne

00:36:08.140 Calvin's appealing to the king

00:36:10.020 he's saying king please

00:36:11.980 the king was Roman Catholic Francis I was Roman Catholic

00:36:14.800 he's saying Roman Catholic

00:36:16.580 king you have a duty

00:36:18.520 to care for the glory of God

00:36:20.480 the stewardship of the faith

00:36:21.980 the health of the church and so please kindly

00:36:24.540 lend your ear to me

00:36:26.240 listen to what I'm about to say to you

00:36:28.100 and please be convinced of it

00:36:29.580 go ahead

00:36:31.660 Well, I was going to read, is now a good time for confessions, or do you have more quotes?

00:36:35.760 Let me add Francis Turretin.

00:36:37.680 You guys need to be Francis Turretin maxing.

00:36:40.000 Sproul said it was Calvin, Edwards, and Turretin were his three favorite guys.

00:36:44.300 So I have all of Turretin's institutes.

00:36:46.880 They're excellent.

00:36:47.800 And he writes at length about the intersection of power.

00:36:50.480 So he tackles exactly this question.

00:36:52.560 How does the state relate to the church?

00:36:54.300 And this is during, I would say, one of the periods of the high watermark of the Reformation.

00:36:57.720 So this is during the period of high orthodoxy, the magisterial reformers.

00:37:01.960 I'm just going to read a couple selections of quotes from Turretin.

00:37:04.740 I'm going to go slow and explain them.

00:37:06.140 And I want you to see that this is what they all understood.

00:37:09.780 We've got the church here.

00:37:11.040 It's in need.

00:37:12.380 And there is an incumbent duty upon the state to preserve, care, teach, train, and protect it.

00:37:19.600 Nate, we'll go ahead and go with quote number three.

00:37:24.680 So he says this, Turretin,

00:37:26.960 So he says there's many things given to the state, and one of them is to restore and reform

00:37:47.520 worship when it is declining.

00:37:49.320 He ought to protect the church according to his ability, to restrain heretics and disturbers

00:37:53.580 of ecclesiastical peace, to promote the glory of God, to defend and propagate true religion,

00:37:59.120 and to hinder the confusion of religions. One of the duties of the sovereign, of the magistrate,

00:38:04.880 of the king, according to Francis Turretin here, is to halt and avoid the confusion of religions.

00:38:11.720 Well, we have religious pluralism or freedom of religion. The role of the state is literally to

00:38:17.300 say, no, there is one true religion, the Christian religion. He says his third role, to provide for 0.62

00:38:24.300 the ministry of the word and the sacraments rightly according to the word of God, where it

00:38:28.560 does not exist, to treat it reverently and honestly, cherish and defend it, where it does

00:38:33.820 exist, open and encourage schools as well as seedbeds, seminaries of the state and the church

00:38:39.180 in which the youth may be instructed and trained. Now, Turretin is not necessarily saying for all

00:38:44.700 time. The gospel age is 50,000 years

00:38:46.720 before Christ comes back. All the way until 0.57

00:38:48.680 that time, the state will always be establishing

00:38:50.560 schools and always instructing and training.

00:38:52.860 But you can see there, a baseline expectation

00:38:54.740 and

00:38:55.700 anticipation of, yeah, it's the state's

00:38:58.660 role to come in. It's the state's to reform,

00:39:00.580 the state to correct, the state to protect.

00:39:04.000 Let's go

00:39:04.560 now to quote, this will be a quote

00:39:06.380 four, actually.

00:39:09.440 Nate.

00:39:10.820 So Turton continues on, he says this.

00:39:12.920 He's saying about the civil magistrate.

00:39:14.700 They sin in defect, so civil magistrates sin in the negative when they don't do.

00:39:19.640 Those who remove him, that is the magistrate, from all cares of ecclesiastical things so

00:39:24.720 that he does not care what each one worships and allows free power to anyone of doing and

00:39:29.380 saying whatever he wishes in the cause of religion.

00:39:32.260 He's saying he sins in the negative.

00:39:33.680 He has failed to live up to a duty if he permits anyone to say, I serve this God, I serve that

00:39:41.560 God, God allowed me to do this.

00:39:43.240 he continues and says or who so they continue to sin if they ascribe to him the care of nourishing

00:39:49.360 and defending the church to may kindly cherish and powerfully defend it but still leaves nothing

00:39:54.760 of the recognition and nothing of judgment concerning religion save the execution alone

00:39:59.580 to him so what he's saying there is if you leave up some matters to him but you don't allow him to

00:40:04.800 weigh in recognition and judgment even there the civil father the magistrate is not living up to

00:40:10.020 his role as god commands him um i have one more caution against what he actually shouldn't do but

00:40:15.880 michael i would say let's get into some of what the confessions say so some people might say well

00:40:19.400 yeah that's just turritin i mean that's just turritin but um this actually was quite broadly

00:40:25.120 understood in the confessions as well which were kind of the uh encapsulation of the perspective of

00:40:31.140 right and good doctrine and the various emerging denominations coming out of the reformation

00:40:36.380 Various groups got together and wrote confessions.

00:40:39.400 And it's interesting that a lot of the confessions, I have three of them here, specifically touch on this issue.

00:40:45.060 And it's kind of based to say, well, I'm confessional now and I'm Reformed Baptist or Presbyterian.

00:40:53.000 We go back to the Westminster.

00:40:54.280 We go back to the Baptist faith meshes of 2000.

00:40:56.260 That's right. 0.98

00:40:57.160 Not quite that one.

00:40:58.180 I'm going to go in order.

00:41:00.640 The oldest one that I have is the Belgic Confession of 1561.

00:41:04.400 so this is article 36 it says of the magistrates it says and their office i don't have this on the

00:41:10.240 on the screen sorry guys so just listen i'll read clearly and their office that is the magistrate

00:41:15.560 the magistrate's office is not only to have regard unto and watch for the welfare of the civil state

00:41:22.020 but also that they protect the sacred ministry and thus may remove and prevent all idolatry and

00:41:28.720 false worship that the kingdom of antichrist may be thus destroyed and the kingdom of christ

00:41:35.020 promoted they must therefore again the magistrate must therefore countenance the preaching of the

00:41:40.740 word of the gospel everywhere that god may be honored and worshiped by everyone as he has

00:41:46.920 commanded in his word he says the magistrate is in char is entrusted with promoting the kingdom

00:41:53.960 of christ and destroying the kingdom of antichrist that's that's remarkable because we separate those

00:42:01.140 two things in our time now well those are two different things there's a spiritual kingdom well

00:42:04.660 no the belgic confession says the civil magistrate oversees and promotes the destruction of the

00:42:11.740 spiritual enemies of christ pretty remarkable that's 1561 here's 1566 this is the second

00:42:19.600 Helvetic Confession, chapter 3, of the magistracy. He says that they say the duty of the magistrate,

00:42:27.160 the chief duty of the magistrate is to secure and preserve peace and public tranquility. Good,

00:42:33.000 amen. Doubtless, he will never do this more successfully than when he is truly God-fearing

00:42:38.780 and religious. That is to say, when according to the example of the most holy kings and princes

00:42:43.620 of the people of the Lord, he promotes the preaching of the truth and sincere faith,

00:42:48.740 roots out lies and all superstition together with all impiety and idolatry and defends the church

00:42:56.840 of god we certainly teach that the care of religion belongs especially to the holy magistrate

00:43:03.540 that's rough for the uh wow without all superstition that's tough hardest hit hardest

00:43:09.820 hit uh no that's a good quote i want to read westminster because this is probably the one

00:43:13.480 that most people will be familiar with right and the baptist confession i think excises these parts

00:43:18.660 It does.

00:43:19.280 It does.

00:43:19.740 So this is a Presbyterian W here.

00:43:22.140 It is. 0.99

00:43:22.360 And a classic Baptist L. 1.00

00:43:24.520 Many such cases. 1.00

00:43:25.800 So many cases.

00:43:26.600 This is section 23, paragraph 3 of the Westminster Confession.

00:43:32.940 It says,

00:43:33.480 The civil magistrate may not assume to himself the administration of the word and sacraments.

00:43:38.760 Amen.

00:43:39.160 He may not do that.

00:43:40.520 Or the power of the keys of the kingdom of heaven.

00:43:43.500 Good.

00:43:43.760 yet he hath authority, and it is his duty to take order that unity and peace be preserved in the

00:43:52.100 church, that the truth of God be kept pure and entire, that all blasphemies and heresies be

00:43:59.480 suppressed, all corruptions and abuses in worship and discipline prevented or reformed, and all the

00:44:06.180 ordinances of God duly settled, administered, and observed. For the better effecting whereof

00:44:12.900 If he has the power to call synods to be present at them and to provide that whatsoever is transacted in them, be according to the mind of God.

00:44:23.640 I don't know if it could be any more clear.

00:44:27.440 One, your meme, Joel, corporate needs to tell you the difference between the two.

00:44:32.360 Westminster Confession, what Constantine actually did.

00:44:36.140 Right.

00:44:36.960 Same picture.

00:44:38.020 Yep.

00:44:38.540 It's the same picture.

00:44:39.880 And praise God for it.

00:44:40.660 yeah i i would love if maybe later towards uh the end of the episode maybe in our third segment i

00:44:45.760 know we want to deal with the chat and any questions that people have but i don't want

00:44:48.720 to cut you off west because i know you've prepared a lot uh so i'm going to hand it right back to you

00:44:52.480 in just a moment but i would love to like i feel like one of the things that i'm you know decently

00:44:57.980 good at is um practically saying like okay so you know how would we accomplish this from where we

00:45:04.600 are today here in america right how can we get here what would the church do you know because

00:45:09.320 suppressing blasphemy you see that's part of the problem is it's it's you know like it's clear when

00:45:14.680 it's arius you know and denying the divinity of christ you know it's like okay well that's

00:45:18.540 blasphemy you know but it wasn't clear at the time no it wasn't exactly it wasn't clear at the

00:45:23.420 time but what i mean by that is like you know we have you know our own little cultural context and

00:45:28.380 what's been going on just in the last you know 10 15 years you got woke wars one and then you got

00:45:32.640 woke wars two a lot of my point is a lot of it is the culture war stuff and and not um as much

00:45:38.100 it is doctrine it's it has theological implications but it's not primary doctrine it's not doctrine of

00:45:43.520 god theology proper it's not that you know the hypostatic union is not soteriology um it's not

00:45:48.520 those kinds of things like our nation is being torn apart by the bible being used to welcome

00:45:54.100 the sojourner and that means you know 500 000 haitians or um or on the on the flip side you 0.87

00:46:00.540 know it's like well that's not what the bible means and it actually means this you know and

00:46:03.780 then you got neil shinby well you just woke right you know or james lindsey like you just woke right

00:46:07.820 you know and and but my point is like what i'd love to get into practically like what are the

00:46:12.160 solutions to the state the question would be does the state step in on those issues which are not

00:46:17.060 actually then they don't actually rise to the level of doctrinal heresy um or would the state

00:46:23.600 maybe even make like some kind of pronunciation that um the church's word and sacrament needs

00:46:29.820 to stay in its lane i feel like that's actually more likely right you know and then guys like us

00:46:34.620 you know we're like okay fair enough and and then we just podcast or something you know and

00:46:42.960 right right but like because that's been i think a lot of what steven wolf has been trying to to

00:46:46.820 get across that's why he says i i you know all of his stuff about a worldview there's a lot of guys

00:46:52.120 you know james white and others who have been struggling with what steven wolf has been talking

00:46:56.340 about you know christian worldview but what steven means by that just for the record real quick and

00:47:00.600 then i'll give it back to you west but you remember the um the old commercials uh for holiday inn

00:47:06.080 uh express uh they used to run these commercials and it would basically be like this was one of

00:47:11.980 the setups i remember it distinctly in my mind because i just thought it was funny but it was

00:47:15.720 like a hospital room like a surgery room and somebody's under you know they're laying on the

00:47:19.540 table you know the cloth is over their body and um and and they're about to cut open their their

00:47:25.640 head their skull and perform brain surgery and all the nurses are in the room and they're prepping

00:47:30.500 you know the patient all this kind of stuff and then this guy walks in you know and he's decked

00:47:34.680 out in his doctor gear and uh people are like you're not the doctor like who are you and he's

00:47:39.200 like oh my name is so and so and they're like like what are you here for to perform brain surgery

00:47:44.260 like well what are your credentials are you even you know are you even a doctor he's like well i'm

00:47:48.400 not a doctor but i did stay in a holiday inn last night and that's what steven wolf just just to

00:47:53.920 clear that up i feel like it's the best way i can explain that's what steven wolf is talking about

00:47:57.440 when he's pushing back because at first you know like at first glance you're like why are you

00:48:01.920 pushing back against a christian worldview aren't there i mean of all the things to fight against

00:48:06.220 why are we fighting like isn't that a good thing why would we fight against a christian worldview

00:48:10.000 but what he's getting at is is kind of like like al moeller you know the beginning of every briefing

00:48:14.520 is like uh you know news and current events from a christian worldview and then with his christian

00:48:19.540 worldview he sided with dr fauci for months and months and months you know telling the church that

00:48:24.440 should be shut down and that we should wear four masks and all you know um and and what steven's

00:48:29.300 trying to say is you know what your christian worldview doesn't make you an epidemiologist

00:48:32.740 yeah your christian worldview doesn't make you a a rocket scientist or an economist you know and

00:48:38.620 that and that is that's true for all of us and i'm talking to myself right now because i don't

00:48:42.120 want people to think that i'm it's like really like has he has he not looked in the mirror i'm

00:48:46.220 perfectly aware that this applies to me especially me but the point is by virtue of being a christian

00:48:51.900 or a pastor or having a christian worldview does not make it does not um that is not the equivalent

00:48:57.940 of having a phd in political philosophy right it's not and so what stephen wolf is getting at

00:49:02.820 and we'll get to it later in the episode like i already said but in terms of like practically

00:49:06.740 where do we go from here and how could we fix you know make some of these things happen in america

00:49:10.420 well because it's not a clear my point is because it's not a clear blasphemy or clear heresy

00:49:15.120 like doctrine of god theology proper doctrine of the son those kinds of things it may not be that

00:49:20.200 the state comes in and says well the church must be culturally right leaning politically right

00:49:26.200 leaning it may that that might not actually be the best way to go about it it may be that the

00:49:30.480 state says uh the church must simply stay in its lane and simply word and sacrament and leave these

00:49:37.960 matters um to political philosophers and to this and to that like that actually like could the

00:49:45.220 state do that and say hey you're no more sermons about the least of these and why we need more

00:49:50.840 immigrants that text from matthew cannot be preached for five years yeah yeah like no no more

00:49:55.260 of those exactly no more of those that'd be a little extreme but i mean no more of those sermons 0.98

00:49:59.240 because you literally pastors have ruined the country liberal galatians 328 you need a 10-year

00:50:04.540 freeze from preaching galatians 328 yeah there's neither male nor female i'm sorry you uh you guys

00:50:09.660 have improperly exegeted this text, you know, for decades and decades. And so you're not allowed to

00:50:15.360 touch it. But my point is like, not so much, we're being facetious there. So not so much like a text

00:50:20.100 is off limits, but in terms of application saying, you are to preach to spiritual matters for the

00:50:26.800 foreseeable future. And when it comes to cultural and political matters, if you get too cultural

00:50:32.600 political in either direction, left or right, then there are going to be penalties.

00:50:39.660 Because you, by virtue of being clergy or whatever it is, or virtue of being Christian, having your Christian worldview does not make you a political philosopher.

00:50:51.440 Listen to Turretin on this.

00:50:52.800 So Nate, this is quote number three.

00:50:54.840 Although it is not lawful, so Turretin takes it as an assumption, although it is not lawful for bishops to engage in politics or to plead in court, still it is lawful and incumbent upon them to diminish and to exhort magistrates to do their duty.

00:51:06.060 and if they at any time fail it they are to rebuke and denounce the judgment of god against them

00:51:10.160 so one of his a priori assumptions right there he's like it's not lawful we all know for bishops

00:51:15.060 to do politics or to plead in court they're restricted to the spiritual matters and then

00:51:19.780 he in turn says this of the magistrates so in turn although the preaching of the word does not

00:51:24.020 pertain to magistrates so the magistrate the the prince does not come in and preach on sunday

00:51:28.420 morning to be clear that is not his prerogative that at any sunday morning right he can get up

00:51:32.340 of the pulpit for two hours he doesn't administer the sacraments nope right so he says although the

00:51:37.360 preaching of the word does not pertain to them it would be funny to watch trump administer the

00:51:41.240 little supper i don't know about that i'm not saying it'd be good but it'd be it'd be interesting

00:51:46.260 to watch two corinthians he says still it is lawful for them that is the civil magistrates

00:51:52.180 to admonish and rebuke bishops and pastors neglecting or wandering from their office

00:51:56.960 nay also to bring to order transgressors and to take care that the ministry be not corrupted

00:52:01.740 and religion

00:52:02.580 suffer no harm

00:52:03.420 and we'll end this segment

00:52:04.500 with one more guard

00:52:05.420 against what

00:52:06.340 we're clearly not saying

00:52:07.720 that the prince should do

00:52:08.540 so we're not saying

00:52:09.240 in all of this

00:52:09.800 like he just

00:52:10.280 he takes it over

00:52:11.080 he picks the color

00:52:12.360 of the carpet

00:52:12.900 the hymnals

00:52:13.760 the version they're going

00:52:14.480 to preach from

00:52:15.080 he can be president

00:52:16.080 any church on Sunday morning

00:52:17.200 he can't do those things

00:52:18.480 this is the last quote

00:52:19.360 Stephen Wolf

00:52:19.980 he should procure

00:52:21.260 what is necessary

00:52:22.220 that is the Christian prince 0.57

00:52:23.580 what is necessary

00:52:24.700 for pure worship of God

00:52:26.120 but not lead worship

00:52:27.780 or institute

00:52:28.580 new articles of faith

00:52:29.980 or sacred ceremonies

00:52:31.900 He can't do new things.

00:52:33.480 He is not free to invent.

00:52:35.000 He's not free to take the almanac and say, you're going to read this on Sunday morning.

00:52:38.160 That's right.

00:52:38.620 If the ministry degrades, this is Wolfe saying it, he should reform it.

00:52:41.620 He should correct the lazy and erring pastor, but not perform the duties of pastor. 0.76

00:52:45.220 He should protect the church from heretics and disturbs of ecclesiastical peace, 0.94

00:52:49.040 ensuring tranquil spiritual administration. 0.99

00:52:51.780 I know this has gone wrong before, and Baptists have certainly been on the receiving end of it.

00:52:56.280 Roman Catholicism has done its fair share of it. 0.87

00:52:58.180 but but just because the system's flawed just because there's bad husbands or just because

00:53:02.200 there's this side of the other it still doesn't mean that what we've now kind of demonstrated i

00:53:06.740 would say 1700 years that the ordinary means that god has used for 1700 years can't still be used

00:53:11.920 at all well there's been some excesses been some deficiencies been some abuses throw it out the

00:53:16.500 window no more marriage right right baptist faith and message from here on out no right that's just

00:53:23.060 not what you have to take away from it because we are baptists and we're you know picking on baptists

00:53:27.100 But I mean, it is silly when you're talking about the largest denomination in these United

00:53:33.720 States of America that are historically confessional all the way back to the year of our Lord 2000.

00:53:41.320 And then we're like looking at our country and we're like, yeah, we're a joke.

00:53:45.980 We're kind of a joke.

00:53:47.760 Yeah.

00:53:48.660 Let's head to our last commercial break and then we'll come back.

00:53:50.660 We'll talk practicals.

00:53:51.660 All right.

00:53:52.240 The clock is running out.

00:53:53.320 You need to go and register now for our Christ is King, How to Defeat Trash World Conference.

00:53:59.720 It's happening the year of our Lord, 2025, April 3rd, 4th, and 5th.

00:54:04.800 That's a Thursday, Friday, and Saturday.

00:54:07.440 And by God's grace, we're able to provide for you an all-star lineup.

00:54:11.820 We've got Steve Dace, Calvin Robinson, Orrin McIntyre, Dr. Stephen Wolfe, Eric Kahn, David

00:54:18.020 Reese, Andrew Isker, John Harris, A.D. Robles, Dan Burkholder, Dusty Devers, Ben Garrett,

00:54:25.000 C.J. Engel, and yours truly, Pastor Joel Webin.

00:54:28.700 Come on out.

00:54:29.560 Join us April 3rd, 4th and 5th, 2025, Thursday through a Saturday.

00:54:34.980 Go to rightresponseconference.com to register today.

00:54:39.600 Again, that's rightresponseconference.com.

00:54:43.180 Listen, guys, you probably listen to Right Response Ministries because you take the

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00:56:06.260 Okay, real quick, Nathan just walked in here and informed me during the commercial break that

00:56:11.120 we do need to remind you guys a couple more times because we've got less than two weeks it's kind of

00:56:16.500 crazy when michael and west walked into the studio um they're like yeah so the conference is next

00:56:21.820 week and i was like what next week yeah um so yeah it's it's next week thursday friday saturday

00:56:28.320 april uh third fourth and fifth and pretty i i'm assuming at this point like everybody who's going

00:56:35.040 to come physically has signed up um but it's not too late um simply not and just for the record

00:56:40.760 because all the haters are going to say they're still advertising their conference because they

00:56:44.080 only have like four people going nathan just gave us the you know the most recent numbers is about

00:56:48.700 950 people and we'd love to hit a thousand so if 50 more people want to come that's great but no

00:56:53.900 i'm not saying this because nobody's coming to the conference but we just we got a venue that

00:56:58.800 just happened to be the most affordable and also was fairly large it could seat like 2 000 people

00:57:03.840 and so um so there is still room even though you know we're a week and a half away so if you want

00:57:09.060 to come in person we would love that go to right response conference.com not right response

00:57:14.920 ministries but right response conference.com and you can register today nathan let's let's give

00:57:20.300 them a promo code for anybody who needs some help um what do we do we still have king or christ is

00:57:26.780 king what is it we have both i think uh yeah you could type in uh anti-semitism christ is king

00:57:33.940 You can use CHRISTISKING, all caps, no spaces, or just the word KING, all caps, and get a,

00:57:45.180 I believe it's a 25% discount.

00:57:46.960 Is that right, Nate?

00:57:48.180 25% off, which would put you at $150 for an adult, $75 for a teenager, and kids are free.

00:57:55.040 10 and under are free.

00:57:56.400 So we'd love for you to come in person.

00:57:57.700 But what I was going to say is, at this point, I imagine, I assume that most people are pretty

00:58:02.500 much settled on, you know, whether, you know, if you're not registered now, you probably just can't

00:58:06.520 come. But a lot of people have been asking about if they can watch digitally. And, and so we are

00:58:11.940 going to live stream it. And what you need to do, if you want the live stream is we're going to do

00:58:16.600 that, it's not going to be on YouTube, it's not going to be on on x, it's not going to be on our

00:58:19.780 website or anything like that. We are exclusively live streaming it only for our Patreon members and

00:58:25.540 only for because I don't want you to sign up on Patreon be like what I didn't get access. So hear

00:58:30.640 only for our gold Patreon members. Okay. So if you go to patreon.com forward slash

00:58:37.420 right response ministries, patreon.com forward slash right response ministries and sign up for

00:58:45.440 the gold tier, which is $10 a month and little life hack. You know, I always say it, it doesn't

00:58:51.280 really serve us because people will take me up on it and we'll get less money, but that's okay.

00:58:55.240 I'm not trying to, you know, to rip anybody off. I don't want you to have to sell your shirt in

00:58:59.260 order to watch this content. But here's the life hack for you. You actually can cancel. I know it's

00:59:04.740 unbelievable because I myself have fallen prey to it, having 47 different subscriptions, and I'm

00:59:10.460 only aware of five of them, and I'm like, where did that $1,000 go? But you actually can cancel

00:59:17.280 a subscription. You really can. So you could sign up, just sign up today because it's literally a

00:59:22.000 week and a half away. And if before 30 days, it's monthly, if within 30 days you cancel your

00:59:28.260 subscription, then you will have been able to live stream all seven sessions, all three panels,

00:59:34.280 get every ounce of content from the conference and spent a grand total of $10. There are a lot

00:59:39.860 of different guys, a lot of different Christian ministries and Christian conferences that live

00:59:44.200 stream their conference for 50 bucks, 70 bucks, 80 bucks, a hundred bucks. We are live streaming

00:59:49.720 the conference for $10. And we're not even trying, like, believe it or not, our goal is simply to

00:59:57.040 stay afloat. It's no secret that we have plenty of enemies and we're just trying to financially

01:00:03.280 be viable so that we continue, be able to continue to provide the content that we do. We're not

01:00:08.920 trying to make some massive profit on this, but we do need to be able to stay afloat. And with

01:00:13.960 this conference, I have no one to blame but myself, but I invited like 150 speakers to this

01:00:19.660 conference. And it turns out when Nathan gave me the books, he was like, Joel, this is rather

01:00:26.740 expensive it turns out that having this many speakers and you get a show you get a podcast

01:00:32.500 you get a speak yeah exactly so it's like i mean like when you get like i kid you not we 150 you

01:00:37.440 know obviously hyperbole but we have like 15 speakers and when you do that the airfare um an

01:00:43.080 honor we're trying to give them all a generous honorarium uh their you know their hotel their

01:00:48.080 per diem you know paying for their meals while they're here uh so just the speakers alone um we

01:00:53.520 are well over 50 grand just on the speakers. And this is not a conference of, you know, it's fairly

01:01:00.080 large. It looks like we're going to come in about a thousand people, but it's not a 10,000 person

01:01:04.160 conference. And so you can do the math on that. And with those thousand people, a lot of them,

01:01:08.420 we've given free tickets, a ton of different promo codes and discounts. So it's not like,

01:01:13.680 well, a thousand people and all of them are 200 bucks a piece. No, we didn't even start the 200

01:01:18.520 price until very recently. So we had much lower price. And even with those, we're offering

01:01:23.380 promo codes and discounts. With that 950, I think at least 100 of them are completely free,

01:01:30.640 pro bono. And I'm not just talking about the kids who are for sure free. So we are not trying to

01:01:35.680 rip anybody off with this. But we are also trying to, I'd like to avoid having to take a second

01:01:41.620 mortgage on my house to pay for it. So that's what we're trying to do. We're trying to at least break

01:01:45.580 even. And we do have some more space. But that's why we decided that we are going to charge for

01:01:50.680 the live stream so all that to the live stream uh we're not trying to rip you off but but ten

01:01:55.120 dollars um just so that we can uh stay afloat and that this conference uh wouldn't put us in the

01:02:00.800 hole but we're super excited and guys it's like 10 11 days away it is coming up fast all right

01:02:07.940 it's gonna be a great time nate let's show table two so you can say well in our american context

01:02:12.920 the state the church there's a wall between them right like the state doesn't influence the church

01:02:17.040 all that together you could try as much as you want to to say no these two are separate here's

01:02:24.160 the deal morality worship all of these things they're forever entangled with the state so these

01:02:28.840 are three supreme court decisions uh there has been certainly less influence you do not have

01:02:32.880 the president of the united states right calling the baptists together calling the presbyterians

01:02:36.540 together but i want to show three ways in which you had ostensibly christian in the case of mormon

01:02:42.400 a pagan religion and then christians bob jones university fundamentalness how you still had the

01:02:47.280 state coming in and saying yes you can do this no you cannot do this so for anyone listening

01:02:51.300 reynolds versus united states this is 1878 supreme court ruled that religious freedom does not extend

01:02:56.000 to actions like polymony polygamy that violate criminal law mormons hardest hit bob jones

01:03:01.700 university versus united states this is 1983 this is 40 years ago maybe maybe less the irs

01:03:10.220 revoked 42 years ago the tax-exempt status of bob jones university a fundamentalist christian school

01:03:14.940 for its racially discriminatory administrative admissions policies supreme court upheld this

01:03:18.780 ruling that tax exemptions require compliance with public policy against discrimination

01:03:24.580 indirectly correcting church affiliated behavior and finally michael do you want to try to pronounce

01:03:29.500 this the church of lukumi babalu babalu so this is a pagan ritualistic church that was in a small

01:03:37.680 in Florida City, and they passed ordinances, the city banning animal sacrifice. 0.76

01:03:41.900 Sounds Jewish to me. 0.88

01:03:43.740 It honestly sounds Hawaiian to me.

01:03:46.880 It sounds Hawaiian to me, too.

01:03:47.620 Which would be kind of based if it was like old school Hawaii, theonomic.

01:03:51.480 Not quite.

01:03:52.480 So they targeted the city, passed ordinances targeting their animal sacrifice rituals.

01:03:57.340 The Supreme Court overturned the laws, finding they violated religious freedom by singling

01:04:01.320 out a specific practice.

01:04:02.500 So even in our American context with a firewall attempted to be built, you still have the state and the judiciary coming in and saying, no, church, you can't do that.

01:04:12.860 Nope, you can't do that. 1.00

01:04:13.840 And sometimes good in the case of Mormons. 1.00

01:04:16.580 Hey, biblically it's impermissible and it's the law of the land and your religion doesn't exempt that from you. 1.00

01:04:21.280 You can't do bligamy. 0.86

01:04:22.880 But other times bad. 0.99

01:04:24.240 No, you must not.

01:04:25.700 You're basically denying Bob Jones, freedom of association.

01:04:28.460 saying to pay the religions with bob jones they were you know they were saying you you are receiving

01:04:33.620 tax exemptions right and so if you're going to receive like you're not going to pay taxes to the

01:04:38.300 state because you're a religious institution well if you're going to take the state benefits

01:04:43.960 financial state benefits um then you're going to uh well even tax exemption it's okay you've taken

01:04:49.640 20 million dollars you're not taxed on that right now but if you don't play how we want you to play

01:04:54.480 will tax you on that.

01:04:55.780 And they could retroactively back-tax you

01:04:57.900 on all these past, previous years

01:05:00.320 and all that kind of stuff.

01:05:01.100 But I think the Mormon example,

01:05:02.380 to me, that one really stands out.

01:05:03.840 And I think it's a great example

01:05:04.940 where the states come in and they're like,

01:05:07.180 hey, this is our religion.

01:05:09.900 And to be fair, 0.78

01:05:12.760 to lie and I, steal man the Mormon position, 0.81

01:05:16.020 it's like, this is our position 0.54

01:05:18.020 and a bunch of dudes in the Bible did it.

01:05:20.660 Right.

01:05:20.940 Good dudes.

01:05:22.180 Abraham's a good guy.

01:05:24.080 Right?

01:05:24.280 it's not like abraham is is a deadbeat he's a good guy charlemagne had like close to 20 wives

01:05:29.500 yep and you know solomon had quite a few now granted for solomon it was a downfall that didn't

01:05:34.440 work out super well and for jacob it didn't work you know for david yeah so yeah so a lot of guys

01:05:40.280 you know like that you know you you get my point but the but the point is that you could point to

01:05:45.700 scripture and just for the record i you know i i think that polygamy is wrong but i do know the

01:05:51.260 arguments because some guys have asked me offline like yeah but have you looked to the arguments of

01:05:55.520 like that fidelity you know is what the wife is providing for the husband but it's provision

01:06:00.280 protection that the husband is actually obligated to provide for the like we we've gone down that

01:06:05.200 rabbit hole like we're aware we're you know we're swimming in those those manosphere waters to where

01:06:12.080 like we we know what the guys would say and we disagree we think that it's wrong that it's not

01:06:16.420 a picture of the gospel that it's one husband it's one wife and that it's fidelity on both sides we

01:06:20.900 believe that that is the new testament model that's been given to us um and that that ultimately

01:06:25.680 is the ideal even from the old testament that um that marriage was always meant to be from the

01:06:30.220 beginning from the beginning it was not so it's one man it was one woman so that that is our view

01:06:34.340 on marriage but the point is this um the mormons could have you know at least uh maybe not

01:06:38.760 prescriptively but descriptively argued from scripture itself not just the book of mormon

01:06:42.740 mormon but the the holy bible right and the state comes in and says no sorry but this is our

01:06:48.680 religious conviction don't care yep but then but then the state airs in 1995 right you have a pagan

01:06:55.580 right demon worship cult they're doing animals animals in florida yeah which is i mean that's

01:07:00.420 an average day in florida but on the religious side what is it with you in florida florida well

01:07:05.880 and like turritin he says like well the state should be suppressing false religion and confusion

01:07:10.200 yeah and the state declines to do that says no you're free to do that and so you will always

01:07:13.960 have the state and the church back and forth rendering the verdicts on morality and the state

01:07:18.760 either correcting righteously or unrighteously or uh abandoning abdicating its duty you can't escape

01:07:26.260 the dichotomy all right to bring it to present day this is actually philip derrida he's made

01:07:31.140 this point it's a good one he's a good guy what do you do about the main lines yep there are 57

01:07:36.580 you should i love go ahead west go ahead so west has been all right west deserves all the credit

01:07:41.040 we like we tried if we can we try to you know do something like a hangout you know once every

01:07:47.160 couple weeks or so and a lot of times you know if there's something decent we'll go watch a movie

01:07:50.940 or something and this is a reoccurring conversation that's come up with michael and wes and myself

01:07:56.220 on multiple occasions and because we you know that that's just the the burning question of the hour

01:08:01.300 is like you know redeem zoomer for instance like god bless him you know like i it's it's a worthy

01:08:06.280 endeavor it's a noble cause i know what he's trying to do and saving the pc usa you know

01:08:10.700 because the buildings are pretty and those kinds of things there's a treasury of yeah back in the

01:08:15.520 day there was actually some good theology theology to go along with those buildings yes um and he's

01:08:20.260 like man like you you christian nationalists you're talking about heritage and you're talking

01:08:23.480 about history and you're talking about tradition and and you just you give it all away like you're

01:08:27.960 never going to win if if all the only tool in your toolkit is uh to lose run and start something new

01:08:35.440 right and i and i understand his i understand his point but to be fair like and wes deserves credit

01:08:41.860 because he's the first guy who mentioned it but as soon as he mentioned it i was like you know

01:08:45.400 like the jack nicholson meme like yes yes but he was like what if joel hear me out what if guys

01:08:52.720 uh the way to to whip the mainline protestant denominations into shape was the state the state

01:09:00.880 listen to these statistics so between the seven mainline denominations united methodist church

01:09:05.300 of Christ, Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, the ELCA, the Episcopal Church, the Presbyterian

01:09:09.840 Church, USA, so the PCUSA, not the Presbyterian Church of America, the PCUSA, American Baptist

01:09:15.940 Churches, USA, ABCUSA, the United Church of Christ, and Christian Church, the Disciples

01:09:21.240 of Christ.

01:09:21.680 So between those seven mainline denominations, we are talking about 57,000 individual churches

01:09:27.020 in the United States.

01:09:28.520 Now, as I understand it, there are some churches in there, especially Church of Christ, there

01:09:32.340 could be certainly individual congregations in them that are full of faithful blue-collar you

01:09:38.100 know rural texas folk that love jesus so that is not a condemnation that every single one of those

01:09:42.820 57 000 churches is for sure apostate for sure a false church however the majority are and you can

01:09:49.460 you can you can map it out like all right we got 57 000 buildings to take over within those 50 000

01:09:55.460 7 000 millions of people to convince tons of ministers like that's i mean that's decades of

01:10:00.820 of work or hear me out hear me out i'm ready the president the sovereign the magistrate baron trump

01:10:07.540 he comes out and says king i've taken a task force we've gone through every website we've driven by

01:10:12.120 every building and we have logged thousands of churches with pride flags out front women on the

01:10:17.660 clergy and there are soldiers on the street now we are taking their property and we are giving it to

01:10:22.040 the faithful churches in town amen love it that is completely historically within the realm of the

01:10:28.500 magistrate he can do that you are an apostate

01:10:31.900 apostate wicked church that's and you're building 0.65

01:10:35.020 your land your heritage is taken from you that's what i'm saying to those that 0.96

01:10:40.000 will bear the fruits of it that's what i'm saying i know it sounds

01:10:41.940 crazy but when trump and vance were sitting you know

01:10:44.300 they're on the second row in that pew you know and vance's wife is sitting

01:10:47.380 next to him and she's like what like this is

01:10:50.260 sympathetic i was like no wonder she's a hindu you know like

01:10:53.240 i think i might become one too but in in her defense just real quick disclaimer

01:10:58.220 i i think that she's coming along and and he has advances explicitly said that the kids are being

01:11:03.520 raised catholic and not hindu but anyways but like you know he's looking over at his doting wife who

01:11:08.200 adores her husband is following his lead and looking over at president trump you know and

01:11:12.920 meanwhile this this hackling hen this this short-haired you know um episcopal episcopal 0.57

01:11:19.460 female priestess is arguing about you know diversity is our strength and we're mean and 1.00

01:11:25.440 We're tyrannical. 1.00

01:11:26.240 We need more immigrants from the third world to be dropped on our doorstep to come like locusts and eat everything that Americans have built over the last two and a half centuries. 1.00

01:11:37.900 And they're looking at each other. 1.00

01:11:39.180 And everything in me, I remember thinking distinctly that my first instinct when I watched it, despite being a Baptist, despite being a Protestant, despite my views of separation of church and state and all these things, 0.98

01:11:51.180 I remember sitting there thinking, Trump and Vance should stand up and say, silly woman, Trump says so well, be quiet, silence, liberal heretic. 0.96

01:12:02.480 The magistrate is here, and he pronounces that this is not of God. 0.99

01:12:08.900 Sit down.

01:12:09.660 Amen.

01:12:09.940 It would have been awesome.

01:12:10.920 Nate, I just sent you an image.

01:12:12.500 So I went to school for two years at Penn State University.

01:12:15.160 So it's in State College, Pennsylvania, a small college town.

01:12:17.900 And I took this picture when I first arrived on campus.

01:12:20.300 This is right in the main street.

01:12:21.680 So right across from the street is the campus.

01:12:23.820 And then this is the church right across from there.

01:12:25.840 This is in 2017.

01:12:27.340 This is not 2022.

01:12:29.340 2017, I took this picture.

01:12:31.160 This is a pride flag out front of a beautiful stone church that's hundreds of years old.

01:12:36.160 And it's a pride flag that says God is still speaking.

01:12:39.020 And, okay, that's bad.

01:12:40.580 All right.

01:12:40.820 So there's, and literally, there's 15 people in there, a woman pastor.

01:12:44.680 Okay, there's 15 people that are going to hell if they don't repent of their sins.

01:12:48.320 But hang on.

01:12:49.040 That is downtown.

01:12:49.800 How many students go to Penn State?

01:12:51.580 20, 30, 40,000.

01:12:52.980 And every single day walk by that blasphemous sign and are lied to by that church that you can allow that, that God is still speaking, that individuals in this lifestyle are welcome.

01:13:05.680 That's why you have to shut it down.

01:13:07.120 And real quick, when they say God is still speaking, you need to understand theologically what's meant by that.

01:13:12.100 What they mean is that God is still evolving, that God is changing.

01:13:15.640 that the scripture that explicitly says behold i am the lord i changeth not i'm the same yesterday

01:13:22.760 today and for when they say god is still speaking what they mean is not that god is um is reaffirming

01:13:29.620 special revelation and those things that are immutable unchanging and eternal and true that

01:13:34.560 are already written down in holy scripture no they're saying god is speaking something new

01:13:39.460 god is developing he's evolving he's changing his mind when the bible literally says god is not a

01:13:45.840 man that he should change his mind right um and so so that actually is a heresy that is actually

01:13:52.580 a heresy you're saying that the lord it's process theology yep it's it's open theism process the

01:13:59.080 so now we actually are getting into theology proper doctrine of god um that uh into the

01:14:04.780 essence of god the mind of god the nature of god and you're saying that the godhead over time

01:14:10.420 is evolving and in process he is changing and not just that he's still speaking but he's speaking

01:14:17.620 new things that directly contradict with those things which have been inscripturated and for

01:14:23.480 the civil magistrate even in our american system to say your property is seized and you're out on

01:14:29.940 the street would be good and that's kindness you're out of the street you're out of jail is

01:14:35.120 yeah or the moderate soft position that is the united church of the christ by the way you can

01:14:40.500 see like right there in the corner of it that is a mainline denomination and hundreds of thousands

01:14:44.860 of impressionable college students leaving home walk by that sign every single day and got that

01:14:50.460 impression they they are doing more with that sign out front and it's the same here um in

01:14:56.900 georgetown right across from uh southwestern it's always across from the university there's

01:15:01.020 two or three churches that are right on the same street and they're all just emblazoned i mean

01:15:05.000 that was just one there now we've gotten to the point where they've got it out in the lawn they've

01:15:08.500 got it on the building well there's this worse it's just like there is no such no human being

01:15:12.000 is illegal abortion i think it's literally says like abortion is health care yeah it's the

01:15:15.720 unitarian universalist but that is a proclamation of a doctrinal position just the signage out in

01:15:22.620 front is a doctrinal position and they are doing way more with that on the street than they are to

01:15:29.180 the people who are going in on a sunday morning right it's not just a doctrinal position with

01:15:32.760 your 15 parishioners that's right and it is 15 yeah but here's the thing that you have to realize

01:15:39.060 so everybody's you know this is another getting so now get getting economic and uh fiscal practical

01:15:45.000 in that regard for just a moment um this is big though this is huge because people say like people

01:15:50.440 have been saying for uh you have to realize what i'm about to articulate um this isn't something

01:15:55.960 that like that you and the boys you know on a cigar night you just came up with two years ago

01:16:00.440 the thing that you just uh realized two years ago has been said for 20 years 30 years 40 years

01:16:05.780 by your dad and his boys and your grandfather and his boys ever since the church has been

01:16:09.620 apostatizing and drifting liberal drifting left this has been said for decades that oh well these

01:16:15.040 churches okay so here it is these churches are dying they're dying out no guys you don't

01:16:20.060 understand the church is exempt from property taxes it's exempt from property taxes these

01:16:26.600 churches have decades old trust funds um simply by the interest of of certain investments and

01:16:34.300 trust funds and by virtue having uh zero overhead with property taxes they can pay that 65 year old

01:16:41.880 short-haired blue-haired female priestess they can pay her nine thousand dollars a month

01:16:47.880 forever forever there is no mortgage there is no property taxes there's a trust fund accruing

01:16:55.980 interest and they're able to keep the grounds pay her salary fix the furnace when it breaks

01:17:02.100 and they can have three parishioners and it will never end and yet just simply because of time

01:17:09.340 because that building was built by faithful people at the cost of of their work their their sweat

01:17:14.860 their tears by faithful christians who built it but they built it early a hundred years prior

01:17:20.340 200 years prior whatever it may be that piece of property is is right there in the city square in

01:17:27.000 the most prominent public places and so they may be preaching to three people it's like well they're

01:17:31.740 on their way out no they're not they can literally preach to three people forever financially they

01:17:37.440 are forever viable and they can preach to three people but by virtue of of the prominence of the

01:17:42.960 real estate because it's it's it was a building constructed in the in you know a long time ago

01:17:48.340 in the formation of that city of that town it's right there on the square it's central to to the

01:17:54.480 populace so they're preaching to three people in perpetuity inside the church they're preaching to

01:17:59.900 thousands of people what michael's saying through their signs and through their godless messages

01:18:04.280 outside the church just to people assuming like oh there's tons of christian denominations well

01:18:08.260 there's universalists there's like it even just by virtue of it existing people think like oh

01:18:12.980 that's part of the christian repertoire and then even young men think of christianity but they

01:18:16.900 drive by a church with a sign like that young men who could be persuaded as a felix tells paul

01:18:22.860 i could be persuaded they drive by that and they're like oh yeah and i can't do it every church not

01:18:28.720 every but but here's the point um 37 000 the majority of churches 57 000 the majority of

01:18:35.720 churches that that are in this um are geographically in the center of the town and that look like

01:18:42.560 churches with that old traditional you know um aesthetic and architecture and all that kind of

01:18:48.460 stuff because your faithful churches your faithful little reform baptist church is meeting in a

01:18:53.300 bowling alley right yep or some some podunk you know western dance hall like we are you know like

01:19:00.200 and i'm not putting those people down because we're we're we are those people yeah and we

01:19:05.040 acknowledge that because you gotta you know you gotta lark before you can fly you know you gotta

01:19:08.820 you gotta start somewhere but the point is you're west is absolutely right that um most people when

01:19:15.160 they think of church they think of that brick building or that stone building on the square 0.86

01:19:20.560 downtown with a tall steeple and and most of those are gay yep and so so people literally think this 0.78

01:19:28.440 is the church yeah this is the church and so so the civil magistrate doesn't just have a vested 0.98

01:19:34.900 interest he i believe he has a moral obligation under god to ensure um that these wicked churches

01:19:42.180 are not deceitfully um communicating that the church in america at large affirms sodomy right

01:19:52.340 abortion all these kinds of things and even like we said a second ago primary theology doctrine of

01:19:59.100 god that god is in process process theology um open theism that god is changing that his his

01:20:04.960 nature is in flux somehow um yeah the civil magistrate has a vested interest in this what

01:20:10.900 is he for if not to protect like a nursing father it's a little bit of a conflation and bringing

01:20:16.260 together terms but it's a term god uses yeah if not a nursing father to protect the little ones

01:20:21.760 that's to guard them to shield them to vanquish enemies what is he given the sword for right

01:20:28.000 decoration like jaywalking and he's given the sword for many things the murderer the gang this

01:20:34.000 that or the other theft and but also matters of the blasphemy yeah false worship especially like

01:20:40.000 we saw to set the conditions the optimal condition he can't he can't convert the gospel does that

01:20:46.300 right he can't convert but what he can do is he can in his temporal realm set the optimal conditions

01:20:52.480 for heavenly good absolutely yeah and he must yep yep we got some great questions uh nathan called

01:21:00.680 this out to us so the first question is what why are you the way that you are we don't have that

01:21:06.020 long the second question is what gives you the right seriously how awesome would that be though

01:21:11.680 to come to our town which has a number of apostate churches downtown you're done clear out and i've

01:21:17.120 found the five most faithful churches in georgetown and you will enjoy the blessings of these churches

01:21:21.740 and you will be not a beacon of darkness, but of light in this city.

01:21:25.780 That is a biblical, there's that, I forget where it is.

01:21:28.600 If you guys remember where it is, let me know.

01:21:30.300 But there's that part about, there's that verse about how God says that,

01:21:38.660 like, even the, he's speaking to his people and he says,

01:21:43.740 you will, it's not the promise of going into Canaan,

01:21:46.700 but it's similar to that where you will live in houses that you didn't build.

01:21:49.440 but there's another one in the prophets that's very very similar to that um and it's like you

01:21:54.760 reap the spoils of those who went off to war yeah yeah exactly and that first one you're talking

01:22:00.340 about i think is indicative of like uh uh joshua and the conquest of canaan it was because a lot

01:22:05.860 of these cities um like jerusalem actually was a city that was actually um a pagan city that they

01:22:12.220 conquered and of course they re-fortified and built new structures and rearranged and but that

01:22:17.100 jerusalem was not just an open field right from the the bottom up you know from scratch it was

01:22:22.000 actually a pagan city and that's what god the point is that's what god often does he doesn't

01:22:26.920 you know redeem zoomer in that sense is right um god's mo is at least he does it sometimes but

01:22:32.540 it's not exhaustive it's not exclusive god does not exclusively um do do his work from scratch

01:22:40.360 a lot of his work is redemptive work which means what that assumes and implies is that there's

01:22:47.760 something already there that is redeemed and restored so instead of just ex nihilo god works

01:22:55.160 that way too we know that his creation of course is ex nihilo out of nothing but but he also works

01:23:00.640 by redeeming things that already are but are contrary to his will and then redeeming restoring

01:23:08.740 and changing them.

01:23:10.560 And for God to do that on a mass scale 1.00

01:23:12.700 in a country with its apostate 0.95

01:23:14.860 churches, sounds like a God thing. 0.99

01:23:16.820 It's not that we don't think that

01:23:18.780 God could bring

01:23:20.700 the kind of spiritual revival that 0.93

01:23:22.840 would be required to turn those

01:23:24.620 57,000 mainline churches

01:23:26.700 back to the Lord. He certainly can do

01:23:28.800 that. But

01:23:30.340 Wes's point, and it's

01:23:32.720 not that we are saying, oh, there's

01:23:34.700 no possibility. We better find a

01:23:36.680 better hammer, right?

01:23:38.060 Like, oh, you know, the church, we just can't do it.

01:23:41.000 God is impotent.

01:23:41.580 The state's got to step in.

01:23:42.300 Yeah, we've got to find something better.

01:23:43.740 We're going to get the sword of the government.

01:23:45.940 Wes's case is that this actually is what God has done many times throughout history,

01:23:50.760 and maybe it's time we pray, Lord, that he would do it again.

01:23:54.440 The last thing I'll say before we jump into the comments and Super Chats,

01:23:58.220 I was talking with Joel right before the episode, and I said, 0.97

01:24:01.200 the only thing here is either God has to work through a pagan king like Darius, 0.72

01:24:07.240 but he was quite removed. 0.92

01:24:09.320 I think that was part of the deal, right?

01:24:11.100 Like he was pretty far away from Jerusalem

01:24:12.820 when he was ordering the rebuilding of the temple

01:24:15.200 and all of those things.

01:24:16.740 Or you have to have a king who is at least somewhat godly

01:24:20.820 and spiritually inclined,

01:24:21.980 who is wise enough to either give the authority

01:24:24.660 to make the decisions or himself adjudicate

01:24:27.380 some of the lines that are being drawn.

01:24:30.560 Right, amen.

01:24:31.360 But what's so hopeful about that is that,

01:24:34.600 number one and we've never said otherwise not once but number one god could literally send

01:24:40.880 a true bona fide spiritual revival that changes the hearts of many but number two um god can

01:24:48.200 change the face of a country also by saving a minority but then raising them up to power

01:24:54.680 yeah like ascendant roman emperor yeah but yeah and i know you know you're being sarcastic but

01:25:00.540 Like, God has done that so many times where it's not just, you know, preaching, you know,

01:25:07.440 throughout the land, you know, the traveling circuit preachers, you know, and one by one,

01:25:12.300 it's just, you know, regenerate hearts, truly regenerate, and it's 50% of the population plus

01:25:17.180 one. And so now you have a simple majority with regenerate Christians, and they're going to Sunday 0.52

01:25:21.580 school and being educated, and then they vote in, you know, through a democratic, you know, system,

01:25:25.940 better civil magistrates. That's actually the minority report in terms of God historically

01:25:31.760 in the way that he conducts change. What God ordinarily seems to do is he saves miraculously

01:25:38.600 and powerfully a few, and then in providence, causes them to ascend to high places, and he

01:25:47.120 keeps them, holds them, sustains them, and then guides the heart of kings like water.

01:25:52.780 and and then it's a it's not actually bottom-up revival um it's topped out revival it's josiah

01:26:01.220 i was about to say biblical examples of this biblical and church history so we have it you

01:26:06.100 know pre-christ in the old testament for israel but then we also have it post-christ for the last

01:26:10.820 2 000 years of of church history for uh for christians like god has done it again and again

01:26:16.860 and again, where he uses someone at the top, they make reforms, and then the law begins to function

01:26:23.840 as a tutor and sets the more conducive context and environment for genuine gospel preachers,

01:26:31.260 where people hear the good news, and they're actually convicted of sin and born again. God

01:26:35.680 has done this countless times, and for us to think, I just think it's foolish. God can do

01:26:41.260 whatever he wants. I'm not saying one way or the other. It will be this way, but statistically

01:26:46.640 speaking, if we have, if we're leaning to one side or the other, we should, statistically

01:26:52.740 speaking, historically, looking back, we should be more expectant that God would do it top

01:26:58.140 down than bottom up.

01:26:59.440 Yep. 0.98

01:27:00.220 That's how power works.

01:27:01.680 Okay, here we go.

01:27:02.260 This is some super chats.

01:27:03.860 We want to start with those and honor the guys who are being so kind and generous.

01:27:07.820 This is producer JT Studios.

01:27:10.600 Producer JT, JT Studios.

01:27:12.760 He gave us $100.

01:27:14.220 That's incredibly kind.

01:27:15.300 Thank you.

01:27:15.820 um jt studios we appreciate it he says looking forward to the conference well my friend uh we're

01:27:22.420 looking forward to seeing you too uh nathan is giving me a little bit of a heads up here he said

01:27:27.920 say thank you to jt super chat and his help with equipment for the conference okay so not only did

01:27:34.640 he give us a super chat for a hundred dollars but this individual is also i guess lending us sound

01:27:40.140 equipment nathan wow he's lending us his own personal sound equipment for the conference to

01:27:45.740 help cut our costs and and help us to put on a great event thank you so much if you're on xjt

01:27:51.820 message me for an exclusive endoy exclusive invite yes no seriously uh message west you can

01:27:57.760 see my my dad and uh and because there's various things happening at the conference and there'll

01:28:03.960 be a few kind of behind the scenes get togethers and uh west can bring you in yep okay

01:28:10.240 A couple of the Super Chats here.

01:28:11.380 Mrs. Ingram, thank you very much.

01:28:12.980 $4.99 Super Chat.

01:28:14.500 Very kind of you.

01:28:15.560 Appreciate that.

01:28:16.240 It says, promoting the notion of the magistrate shutting down churches with women leaders and pastors deserves another Super Chat. 0.81

01:28:24.060 Amen.

01:28:24.500 Thank you.

01:28:25.000 That's a Super Chat kind of episode.

01:28:28.200 Yeah.

01:28:28.420 That's kind of topic.

01:28:29.880 All right.

01:28:30.560 Here's one. 1.00

01:28:31.160 Renee Dean. 0.98

01:28:32.380 Renee Dean gave us $10.

01:28:34.000 Thank you, Renee.

01:28:34.620 That's very kind.

01:28:36.020 We assume you had your husband's permission to do so.

01:28:39.060 If not, we'll reimburse you the $10.

01:28:40.840 But she says, just want to say that I feel awful about recent attacks against you all.

01:28:47.740 Please keep being strong, godly, faithful men.

01:28:51.560 There are many women like myself that are rooting for you.

01:28:54.220 Very kind.

01:28:54.860 Thank you.

01:28:55.580 It means a lot.

01:28:56.580 Okay.

01:28:56.940 Any other ones?

01:28:57.780 Dakota McMillan, question.

01:28:59.680 You may get to it, but what would be the focus of a council today?

01:29:02.480 We need one, but what question problem would it address?

01:29:05.820 We can't solve our current problem in one fell swoop.

01:29:08.400 So what's first?

01:29:11.120 I think my take, anthropology has to be on there.

01:29:14.800 I really think that as far as a high-tier issue, all the doctrines that fall under anthropology,

01:29:22.440 some of them are secondary and tertiary doctrines, but really the core of anthropology, what

01:29:26.640 is a human, what is a man, what is a woman, what is the nature of the sinful nature, all

01:29:30.860 of those things, that really, like, no one is really running around saying God is not

01:29:35.100 three in one anymore, right?

01:29:36.740 They're not really denying the divinity.

01:29:38.640 I mean, there are some, you know, if you're a Mormon or a Jew.

01:29:41.600 Yes, of course.

01:29:42.240 But the practical error of our time in our high or fundamental theology, in my opinion, is one of anthropology.

01:29:51.480 And that's why I still tend to be kind of a long-view post-millennial guy.

01:29:55.860 um now but what i detest is any long view post-millennial guy who who maybe doesn't say

01:30:03.180 it out loud but is pretty much using that as an excuse to you know to to not get busy to not get

01:30:09.880 to work again that's one of the things that you know stephen wolf you know i remember you know

01:30:13.780 one of the first times i spoke to him you know a couple years ago i guess two and a half years or

01:30:17.520 so maybe three years now but um i just assumed he was post-mill because he wrote a book on

01:30:22.220 christian nationalism right you know and and at the time the only reference i even had for that

01:30:26.180 phrase christian nationalism you know in in the christian world there was marjorie taylor green

01:30:30.540 and people like that but was wilson and wilson's post mail so i just assumed and he was like no

01:30:34.600 i'm not post mail because i want to do something and i was like what do you mean post mail guys

01:30:38.040 are doing stuff like we do stuff you know and and he's like um he's like no he's like you you do

01:30:45.340 but um you know you start your classical education schools um which even that is kind of ironic like

01:30:53.660 does everybody need to know plutarch like some like some people

01:30:58.900 born to rule but no here's the deal and everybody assumes let me just get this straight everybody

01:31:07.600 assumes i'm talking about myself i'm not talking about myself um wes is smarter than me michael

01:31:14.160 is smarter than me. I have some unique gifts and the Lord has blessed it. One of my gifts is to

01:31:19.360 be able to identify people who are smart, smarter than me, and then to utilize them to supplement

01:31:25.760 my weaknesses and all these kinds of things and to think strategically. And I'm good with application

01:31:29.740 and connecting dots and these kinds of things. Drawing correlations. Wes calls me, you know,

01:31:35.060 it's funny. He's like, you're a concluder, Joel. And he like even has like this little

01:31:39.080 chart. I didn't make it

01:31:41.060 someone else made it. Yeah, but the concluder is

01:31:42.620 Wife has a chart? Yeah. Believe it or not. 1.00

01:31:45.040 The concluder, you know, he basically is like

01:31:47.060 a Doc Holliday. He shoots from the hip and he's like

01:31:49.200 yep, this is right, this is true.

01:31:50.840 Gut instinct. Gut instinct. Hasn't

01:31:53.120 even researched it. Has no clue.

01:31:55.220 And then everybody, you know, fact checks him

01:31:56.900 and looks it up on Google. Two weeks later.

01:31:58.840 Yeah, he's right. He's right. Yep. And then

01:32:01.080 the concluder also, sometimes

01:32:03.280 you know, it's more rare

01:32:04.980 than often, but sometimes also

01:32:07.060 just by his sheer number of

01:32:08.660 of times trying to conclude his sheer repertoire of concluding uh frequency of concluding he gets

01:32:15.300 it wrong and uh and it's so funny on this like this chart is like uh and when he gets it wrong

01:32:19.440 he says yeah my bad got it wrong yep it's a strong opinions loosely held yeah strong opinions loosely

01:32:25.520 i was wrong anyways it's a really good description like as soon as he showed me that i was like oh

01:32:29.700 my gosh that's me yeah um but here's my point people think that i'm i'm talking about myself

01:32:34.400 when I say what I'm about to say, and I'm not. I'm actually not. But not everybody is—we're not

01:32:45.040 egalitarian. God did not create an homogenous world where everybody's the same. It's not just

01:32:50.700 that equity, you know, like equal outcomes is Marxist and communist and wrong, but in terms of

01:32:56.720 even equality of opportunity, that is a myth. The sooner you come to terms with this, here's the

01:33:01.920 deal it's not crushing it's freeing and and and i think i'm unique in this a lot of people struggle

01:33:07.840 with this but i i just i think god and his providence from my upbringing um you guys know

01:33:12.860 i've talked about it a few times but i was adopted both of my brothers and i was the oldest because

01:33:16.640 my parents couldn't conceive so they adopted me and then whatever you know god sent this is kind

01:33:21.380 of a common story but whatever was broke with with my my adoptive mother's womb got fixed and

01:33:26.060 so i you know have you know two brothers and a sister but they're all biological i'm the only

01:33:30.340 one who's adopted and i'm the oldest well both of my brothers and mind you like i just said my

01:33:34.540 younger brothers are national merit scholars are you at borderline genius like and not just saying

01:33:42.240 that everybody's like but like taking several legitimate iq tests you know been tested in a

01:33:48.220 facility those kinds of things um borderline genius unquestionably smarter than me but but

01:33:54.260 here's the deal from my youngest my youngest years of memory um my parents my adoptive parents who

01:34:01.380 adopted me as a baby they're the only parents i've ever known and they've been incredible parents

01:34:05.120 incredible but one of the incredible things that my my dad especially did from a young age was he

01:34:12.020 had a different standard for me than my two brothers i had to make a's and b's my brothers

01:34:18.300 would get in big trouble if they made a B.

01:34:21.340 Wow.

01:34:21.880 A's only, because he knew that they were capable of it. 0.91

01:34:25.460 And you were captain of the football team, right?

01:34:27.080 No.

01:34:27.860 I made up for it by...

01:34:29.340 I was captain of...

01:34:30.800 There wasn't a team.

01:34:31.820 This doesn't exist.

01:34:32.500 But if a tree-climbing team existed, I would have been captain of that.

01:34:37.000 If a double backflip on the trampoline team existed, I would be captain of that.

01:34:41.580 i definitely would have been captain uh of the uh getting kids in the neighborhood to to you know

01:34:48.180 borrow their their parents tools and build things and trees that weren't ours and get in trouble

01:34:54.740 you know i was captain of that team for sure but anyways but here's the point i just i had to

01:34:59.020 settle with this and a lot of people haven't because they've been given their participation

01:35:02.080 trophies you know like millennials have a hard time with this you know but they've been given

01:35:05.980 their participation trophies and they've been told you can be anything when you grow up you can be

01:35:09.860 anything no you can't no you can't like i had to settle at a very young age within my own household

01:35:17.160 my own family um my brothers are capable of uh capable of things that i'm not capable of

01:35:23.220 you mean people that doordash and finance sushi as are in mcindyre said over the weekend you mean

01:35:29.320 these people are not fit to be president never will be that was banger tweet of the month when

01:35:34.120 he said like you guys are all bothered by aristotle saying that some people are born to be

01:35:38.160 ruled um and yet here we have a and then you'll turn around an economic financing plan for

01:35:44.280 and you're going to use it right to to enslave you're going to finance pizza and then turn

01:35:51.100 around how dare you say that not everyone's fit to rule right and so anyway so the point the point

01:35:54.920 is this um yeah not not every not everybody's the same and and not everybody is capable of

01:36:01.460 everything some people are fit to rule uh in a way that many people including myself are not

01:36:07.420 yep and that's what we see in church history like constantine brilliant military general

01:36:12.060 brilliant brilliant tactician and had the maturity to call a council but not get too involved with it

01:36:17.400 he was bred and built to rule at the end of the day and he did an incredible job and he'll probably

01:36:22.320 be ahead of me in heaven and that's god's good pleasure to do that for him to give me the gifts

01:36:28.020 that i have to give that to someone else because the clay is still blessing you yes all these

01:36:33.500 hundreds of years later his contribution is still a blessing to us to this day incredible so like

01:36:39.480 praise god for uh for making a man better than us who the blessings achieved by god but through

01:36:47.300 that man that vessel would trickle all the way down not just to people in terms of the breadth

01:36:52.780 of the scope but through the ages through the centuries to where a great man is still blessing

01:36:57.500 me to this day thank god for david who's better than me thank god for constantine who's better

01:37:02.400 than me thank god for paul and calvin and touritan who are better than me my ancestors were probably

01:37:08.320 converted my on the anglo my english side by charlemagne who came in and forced professions

01:37:13.820 at the sword god really the reason my family tracing back the 1200s in england were probably

01:37:19.380 christian and converted was because there was a point he said i'm going to go to britain and i'm

01:37:23.100 going to make everyone christian right based yep and then there's a time and place for everything

01:37:28.420 but like but a real man came in and spread the gospel and i'm benefiting from that today i'm a

01:37:33.960 christian by god's grace my children are christians by god's grace now i will say this all right so i

01:37:39.580 you know i made it clear my deficiencies of which there are many um and every single one of them

01:37:46.880 you will be publicly notified by about you know on the world wide web every week by my detractors

01:37:52.220 but i will say this i think and wes you and michael you correct me if you think i'm wrong but i

01:37:57.940 i remember talking to steven wolf about this uh somewhat recently but i do think in the political

01:38:02.720 sphere um that there are a lot of great men uh you know the great man you know whatever like

01:38:09.040 uh there are a lot of great men who weren't necessarily the highest iq it like they're

01:38:14.540 they had contemporaries surrounding them and counselors and this guy like all these guys

01:38:18.720 who are actually smart but but exactly but they what they had was something that can't really be

01:38:23.980 taught it's this raw concluder intuition yeah and they just boom boom so anyways right because

01:38:30.900 iq is only one like in any given individual they're not a number so you can never take we

01:38:35.200 talk about iq but like it's never just a number like this person summed up like this it's actually

01:38:39.300 a midwit thing to like just boil every individual down there's mathematical quantitative musical

01:38:44.820 artistic ability they're all subsets of general intelligence but it's so much more empathy level

01:38:50.500 as we learned last week our empathy level all three of our empathy levels combined uh would

01:38:56.420 still put us in the psychopath category which is a massive achievement i'm like i'm like that's

01:39:02.280 like probably our greatest accomplishment is is low empathy scores so wow all right continue uh

01:39:10.460 okay so that was a great answer to that question to dakota's question what's the council be on

01:39:14.420 one more time i just i want to be reminded oh it was what what would a council focus on oh what

01:39:19.260 you said anthropology that's what i would say yeah i wanted to add one one thing to that so

01:39:22.980 it would uh it would be what is humanity what is man yeah and and you should honestly if we're

01:39:28.600 going to get off to the right track let's uh let's not say humanity say what is man yeah uh god

01:39:34.040 created mankind male and female he created them so when i say man it stands in for both male and

01:39:39.240 female and just in like traditional english language if it's talking about the singular

01:39:43.560 subject it's he yep and it could be uh and and it's and it's a subject that hasn't been identified

01:39:49.600 yet so it could be male or female but he that's just the proper way to speak so what is man

01:39:53.920 mankind uh and then what is male what is female uh what is their uh their substance uh their uh

01:40:00.840 what is their telos their purpose uh but then beyond that we really do have to answer the

01:40:05.840 question um what is a nation yeah what is a nation what is uh so what what is a woman matt

01:40:12.220 By the way, I'll be selling copies of that book at the conference.

01:40:15.240 Michael Belch.

01:40:15.640 It is in the mail, the author copies.

01:40:18.560 So as soon as I get it, it'll be on that table.

01:40:20.900 We're going to put it right here on the table.

01:40:22.940 And it will literally dwarf my pamphlet over here, my little pamphlet.

01:40:27.760 That's all right.

01:40:28.520 That'll be okay.

01:40:30.840 You'll just have to go back and watch this clip.

01:40:32.840 Remember when he talked about how both of his brothers are National Mayor of Scholar

01:40:36.460 and he wasn't?

01:40:38.260 But yes, we're going to have it on.

01:40:39.540 But we're also going to sell it at the conference, is what I was going to say.

01:40:42.220 and uh and michael will be signing copies as i can get back to the table yeah as much as he can

01:40:46.460 he'll be helping us a lot with the conference so he'll be very busy but he'll do his best to sign

01:40:50.620 copies and you can just find him and carry your coffee around once you buy and uh real quick uh

01:40:55.600 how many copies did you order i ordered 60 soft cover and 25 hard cover guys let's let's make

01:41:02.180 sure he sells out it's 85 books uh come to the conference and uh i expect to see you there with

01:41:07.820 cash no no no we'll take hard to yeah okay we'll take hard to yeah and buy michael's book it's

01:41:13.400 going to be great his book will be great no he's done a lot of research for it i helped read early

01:41:16.540 drafts and they were great bjj wins again great brother suggested suggesting suggestions for 0.71

01:41:22.720 convincing my local independent baptist pastor that baptist tradition on government is kind of gay

01:41:27.860 it is you might not yeah yeah you might just like here this is what i would say with these 0.80

01:41:35.740 kinds of things guys it's kind of what we were getting at earlier in terms of like uh well i'm

01:41:40.420 not a brain surgeon but i did stay in a holiday inn last night right that the idea that's what

01:41:45.040 stephen wolf means when he says um your christian worldview card uh worldview card is not um a claim

01:41:52.760 to universal expertise right that's what he's trying to get it and he's right he's right to

01:41:57.240 like and and for us to say stephen's right about that please hear me there is a massive

01:42:01.840 uh sliding scale there's a lot of room on that scale between uh christian worldview doesn't

01:42:08.340 give you universal expertise in every realm versus uh you're denying the sufficiency of scripture

01:42:13.520 no no no no this is not an either or it's not a pass fail system it there's a lot of room between

01:42:20.140 the bible is sufficient for what the bible says it's sufficient for because if here's the thing

01:42:26.200 if you're affirming the sufficiency of scripture then you also must affirm

01:42:29.900 what the scripture itself testifies to being sufficient for. The scripture is not sufficient

01:42:36.340 for every single minutia of engineering or quantum physics, but the scripture does tell us that the

01:42:44.060 world is not an accident, that it was created in six days by an intelligent design, and therefore

01:42:49.900 there are systems and rhyme and reason and laws and principles at work in the world, and all that

01:42:56.760 absolutely is the foundation for engineering but but then you still have to appeal to nature and

01:43:02.020 observation all these other things to build a plane so um so that that's what you know i'll go

01:43:07.300 back to that question real quick nate but that's uh that's what steven wolf's getting at with this

01:43:12.060 whole you know christian worldview so my point is what i was saying earlier in the episode

01:43:15.180 is uh the pastor i think should be a generalist at some level but a generalist we have to be

01:43:24.060 honest about that a generalist is not an exhaustive expert the generalist knows a little bit about

01:43:29.500 everything but he knows everything about little if anything like so he's he's really not an expert

01:43:38.620 in any field so here's my point your your baptist pastor is he preaching christ is he preaching

01:43:47.480 that we're saved by grace through faith in christ the life death resurrection does he administer

01:43:53.200 the like like what i would say like okay the conversation that you need to have with your

01:43:56.860 baptist uh baptist pastor is um is it six months in between uh each time you take the supper

01:44:03.740 is it grape juice right is it grape juice like talk that would be top of my list yeah um because

01:44:09.540 that's what he's there for word and sacrament and he's literally two things you had two jobs

01:44:15.880 you know and and you're uh one of them you're only doing twice a year you know or seriously i like a

01:44:21.900 lot of baptists do it quarterly once a quarter and even then they only give half the sacrament

01:44:27.720 by giving grape juice you know or maybe at best we can be charitable and say they give you know

01:44:33.040 you know half of half of the you know the grape juice counts for half so it's you know the bread

01:44:37.580 counts so it's 75 of the sacrament and they're doing it four times a year so what i would say

01:44:42.200 is with your baptist pastor um is he preaching christ is he preaching expositionally through

01:44:46.440 the scripture and is he administering the sacraments baptism and the lord's supper faithfully okay if

01:44:53.220 so but he has your typical uh baptist view of politics then honestly this is where we would

01:45:01.240 need to defer to steve wolf steven wolf and in another steven is actually people think he's mean

01:45:06.460 he's he's nice he's probably nicer than i am this is what steven's getting at he's uh he hasn't said

01:45:12.960 the quiet part quite out loud but i'm going to uh he's basically saying easier to take baptist out

01:45:19.200 of politics than to teach baptist ministers how to do politics that's kind of what he's actually

01:45:24.840 pushing towards and he's right so what i guess what i'm saying is an answer to your question is

01:45:29.480 um just encourage your pastor to keep being a pastor and not to run for local office

01:45:35.060 yeah and to just kind of stay out of it because he doesn't know what he's talking about

01:45:39.980 And that's okay.

01:45:41.220 All right.

01:45:41.680 That's a good answer.

01:45:42.400 One more from Neville. 0.68

01:45:43.480 Does the church have the authority to not just bar a heretical Christian prince from the Lord's table,

01:45:48.280 but to also depose him of his position in office? 0.87

01:45:51.120 It does have the authority to block him from the Lord's table,

01:45:54.220 but the church, as the church, does not possess the authority to depose him.

01:45:58.580 Christians, not as churchmen, but as citizens, do.

01:46:02.240 The doctrine of a lesser magistrate. 0.95

01:46:03.380 So the attendee that goes to the church.

01:46:05.320 So the church, in terms of the institution, the ecclesia, the gathering, no.

01:46:08.100 the church insofar as it represents the people the who of the church the saints outside of the

01:46:13.840 church institute monday through saturday as citizens they actually they absolutely can

01:46:18.860 yep run them out of town yep which what happened what was it king henry the eighth

01:46:23.300 was it the eighth or maybe 16th i don't know but he he got uh the one who got ran off and then they

01:46:31.020 they replaced him with cromwell oh yeah i think that was eighth i think so and then you know and

01:46:36.300 then cromwell was great but then his son you know that apple fell far from the tree and then they're

01:46:41.380 like all right let's go get him let's go get the king back we need him back but the people did that

01:46:46.460 yep so but the pastor can literally on his profession of faith with the church as an

01:46:51.720 institute judges the profession and the life can bar the prince if he was an aryan or a modalist

01:46:57.880 yeah not just can should you can't partake of this you're saying that the catholic church

01:47:04.180 should ban politicians who are openly promoting abortion from what are we doing here yeah

01:47:11.880 and see that's the problem to all of our rc you know bros we like we love you like like we have

01:47:18.160 a lot of catholic friends john doyle yeah he's coming to the conference he's not even speaking

01:47:22.240 he's just coming to hang out you know he's catholic and he's great i love john doyle um

01:47:26.940 but like we and and you know and let's be honest um um uh calvin robinson this is an anglo-catholic

01:47:37.060 but the catholic uh that tail is wagging the dog he might as well be like an anglican right i

01:47:41.580 remember you saying he's like i remember when i first talked to him like because you know we got

01:47:45.400 a lot of flack for that decision and i remember when i first talked to him i was like you're an

01:47:48.880 anglo-catholic you know anglican yeah like john stott right and he was like yeah like john stott

01:47:53.540 martin loyd jones right yeah i was like martin loyd jones and john stott yeah you're my guy i

01:47:59.460 love those guys yeah anglican's fine and he was like yeah i yeah basically like that and then

01:48:04.700 you know literally like the next day you know because we're mary posting on james white kind

01:48:09.720 of like started poking him and that's how it happened you know that was a sequence of events

01:48:13.640 because nobody cared when he went out to moscow they cared when all of a sudden you know i announced

01:48:18.280 that he's going to be at my my conference if it's doug wilson it's fine but if it's joel

01:48:21.800 crush him so as soon as we announced that he was going to be at the conference then james white

01:48:26.180 who didn't say a word when he was in moscow started saying a word and poked the bear and

01:48:30.960 this is what i love about calvin um i don't love that he's a little bit more catholic than than

01:48:35.720 i'm comfortable with but what i do love about him is uh if you push calvin he pushes back

01:48:41.340 for better or for worse for better for better for worse yeah if you um if you tell him he can't do

01:48:47.200 something you're gonna get a roman salute from the stage at an anti-abortion conference um and

01:48:53.340 and so anyways but uh but then you know it was so funny because he's like yeah i'm like john stott

01:48:58.020 on the phone and then i kid you not like 48 hours later he's like um our mother mary i trample where

01:49:05.880 i please over america so it wasn't even just a catholic over policy thing it was also like dude

01:49:10.980 you just got here from great britain and you're and you're like because that that meme in particular

01:49:16.480 was not just marry over protestants it was a political over america and i was like oh calvin

01:49:21.680 i love you man but like uh could have done without we're gonna beat the left and then catholics and

01:49:26.600 protestants as brothers we're gonna have to beat each other up yeah exactly first but that's we

01:49:30.320 beat within 10 years that's the thing yes yeah but then we beat each other but what you're saying

01:49:34.100 like we're all we're saying it tongue-in-cheek but we do mean it yeah uh guys the orcs are on

01:49:39.720 the front doorstep so why do you invite uh steve dates don't you know that steve dates is a raging

01:49:44.780 zionist kind of he i i don't think that's exactly fair but yeah you'll find out tomorrow the dude

01:49:51.480 yeah i'm going on steve dace tomorrow but uh i i won't deny for a second like does steve dace

01:49:56.680 love himself some israel he does that dude loves himself some israel uh but so does trump and i

01:50:04.640 voted for him right and and i and i don't regret it for a second and uh and here's the thing about

01:50:09.620 steve days he's a fighter and let me also say this steve days is more of a zionist than

01:50:17.120 moscow apologia and ezra institute um but you know how steve days responded when everybody said

01:50:26.000 you should drop our conference because joel is an anti-semite he said uh joel why don't you come on

01:50:31.980 the show and i want to uh give you a fair hearing and just ask you some questions god bless the

01:50:38.100 reform guys in our camp they didn't do that right so yeah so i'll invite this you want to know what

01:50:43.900 the common denominator is for like why calvin robinson why steve days why like here's a common

01:50:48.440 denominator there's two of them uh one fighters who are willing to fight the orcs and not just

01:50:56.640 have dwarfs and elves and men fight each other that's number one number two uh these are reasonable

01:51:05.520 men there are serious disagreements between us but they're they're reasonable men and like like

01:51:13.200 even you know we did something on the daily wire recently you know jeremy boring that's what it was

01:51:17.080 you know him getting ousted or whatever like resigning but it does also seem like push maybe

01:51:20.960 and who knows um but uh we talked you know briefly about uh michael knolls and matt walsh and i've

01:51:27.260 kind of been like watching them more you know i i listened to them you know in 2020 fairly regularly

01:51:32.440 And then kind of, you know, stop listening and found guys who are more based, you know, whatever.

01:51:38.260 But I started just out of like a thought experiment, you know, just picking up, you know, I can't listen to Andrew Clavin.

01:51:46.260 You know, I can't listen to Ben Shapiro, but listening to Walsh and Knowles a little bit more, not every day, but, you know, from time to time, checking in.

01:51:54.280 How often do those guys punch right?

01:51:58.360 Right.

01:51:59.180 For anyone listening, zero.

01:52:01.560 at least in the last two to three years certainly like 2018 2019 and it's not because they're blind

01:52:06.540 do you think michael knolls and matt walsh are just completely unaware that there are guys in

01:52:12.080 the current discourse to their right i don't think they're aware at all they're they're

01:52:16.600 completely aware and i guarantee you knolls and walsh would both have with some of those guys to

01:52:24.020 their right some profound disagreements like straight up like dude you're making us look bad 1.00

01:52:30.520 dude you're a useful idiot dude you're you're you think you're helping you're hurting you're 1.00

01:52:36.460 a liability you're a detriment uh and yet despite i guarantee you perfect awareness acute awareness 1.00

01:52:42.880 and profound disagreement and even anger and frustration probably their public persona

01:52:49.580 they don't tucker carlson too they don't shoot their own zero and how much progress have we made

01:52:55.780 in the last six months to a year without a bunch of friendly fire that's right from tucker

01:53:00.400 carlson jason whitlock aaron mcintyre aaron doesn't punch right either uh like you mentioned

01:53:05.280 these guys are christians we're talking about orrin you know he's southern baptist we're talking about

01:53:10.420 calvin robinson he's anglo-catholic we're talking about walsh and michael knowles who are both

01:53:14.020 catholics so we're not talking about guys on the right like you know who are barely on the right

01:53:18.120 like joe rogan we're not talking about that we're talking about within the larger christian sphere

01:53:22.300 okay um but my point bringing this up is uh in my experience the reform tradition it'll always be

01:53:29.300 my home. I am persuaded of it

01:53:31.280 theologically. It's my theological

01:53:33.380 home. The Reformed tradition,

01:53:36.200 the Reformed community,

01:53:38.260 the Reformed camp 1.00

01:53:39.420 is the most vicious place 1.00

01:53:41.520 I've ever known.

01:53:43.040 I just want you to know, I've told, I've talked

01:53:45.540 to some of the people in the business world in our church

01:53:47.440 and they've said, that's cute, Joel.

01:53:49.600 That's cute, like in the business world

01:53:51.280 that there's more vicious guys? Yes, yes.

01:53:54.260 So you can take it up

01:53:55.380 with them, but just being...

01:53:57.660 Maybe.

01:53:58.780 I, maybe.

01:54:01.360 But do they, I don't know.

01:54:04.080 Antonio?

01:54:06.380 Nolan?

01:54:07.220 Yeah, Nolan, Antonio.

01:54:09.080 I'll have a conversation.

01:54:10.360 We'll have a pastor.

01:54:10.920 We'll be speaking.

01:54:12.040 Yeah, we'll be speaking.

01:54:13.280 I'll say, hey, guys.

01:54:14.320 The keys of the kingdom are coming out here.

01:54:15.260 You think that the business world is cutthroat

01:54:17.300 and that reformers are just squeaky clean and really kind.

01:54:20.600 They wouldn't say that.

01:54:21.540 The next time these reform guys come,

01:54:23.560 like they did for the other member in our church,

01:54:26.060 uh i won't protect you i'll just i'll just go ahead and let you be excommunicate and uh and

01:54:31.980 then we'll and then we'll have a conversation later so all right uh any were there any other

01:54:36.200 questions did we get to them all yeah oh here's a week um so again yeah please guys sign up for

01:54:42.760 patreon gold um it's our so our silver tier what you'll get is you'll get all the ad free content

01:54:48.900 that's that's for sure what you get is our live stream and our friday specials all ad free um in

01:54:54.680 addition you also get early access so the silver tier it's five bucks a month you get ad free and

01:55:00.060 you also get early access and so in terms of early access right now what that would include is a 10

01:55:05.240 part series all ad free with myself and dr steven wolf on christian nationalism and getting some of

01:55:12.100 the things that we talked about today the state the church how to implement christian nationalism

01:55:17.760 in these united states what's step one what's step two what's step three what can we do now

01:55:22.900 not just theory, but also practice. And so that's what you'll get with a silver tier,

01:55:28.960 five bucks a month. Go to patreon.com forward slash right response ministries. You get ad free

01:55:33.940 early access. But the gold member, that's what you've got to do if you want to live stream the

01:55:40.160 conference. And guys, I'm telling you, you want to live stream this conference. Don't wait for

01:55:48.040 the haters to post a 37 second clip out of context they will my goodness well here you know what

01:55:55.080 actually this is actually a good a good moment here um because we've had you know uh over the

01:56:02.880 years not not over this weekend with the most recent controversy but over the years we have had

01:56:06.820 donors and supporters drop us because of our opponents and and kind of rallying up scandals

01:56:12.700 and a lot of them being simply content

01:56:15.820 and not past things in my personal life,

01:56:18.620 but content taken out of context.

01:56:21.060 And so we have lost some revenue.

01:56:24.320 And here's a chance to make it up.

01:56:26.860 Haters who are listening,

01:56:29.520 you have to pay $10 for our core membership

01:56:32.500 on our Patreon so that you can,

01:56:35.140 because here's the deal.

01:56:36.180 You're going to be taking me

01:56:38.000 and everybody else out of context

01:56:40.160 and painting us as anti-Semites

01:56:42.000 two months too late you want to be able to lie and slander about us immediately don't you you

01:56:48.960 you can be right there on the scene dude all that cost it for ten dollars you can you can slander

01:56:54.920 till the cows come home you can literally have a slander party get together you know and stay up

01:57:00.560 late and cut out video and and if you are cutting us out of context with blake collins and other

01:57:05.880 guys two months after the fact what a loser come on true slander a true accuser of the brethren

01:57:11.800 he'll pay that ten dollars for that gold page we go to the zoo this weekend right away i got plans

The NXR Podcast - March 25, 2025

THE LIVESTREAM - The State Must Correct The Church

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