00:04:57.820that has so much residue from its Christian heritage that we really take for granted.0.99
00:05:06.280Right. Yeah. From the Christian heritage. I heard you with Tom Askell recently saying that,
00:05:13.000you know, the Zambians, you know, the Christians in our nation, we envy their preamble,
00:05:18.420a distinctly Christian preamble, but that they actually envy our heritage and that the heritage,
00:05:24.540the preamble matters right why why not both let's have both if we if we can let's work towards both
00:05:30.080but uh but that the heritage um has stronger implications in in the here and now could you
00:05:35.920could you flesh that out a little bit what what do you see is the heritage of america
00:05:40.160yeah it just i've often said that you if you want to know everything that you need to know
00:05:49.480about a culture, just experience a four-way stop. And you'll see what's really ingrained
00:05:58.340in the culture, whether people are stopping, waiting their turn, being courteous, or whether
00:06:06.920the only law is the law of physics and whether or not I can get my bumper in front of yours.
00:06:12.620And, you know, it's interesting, you know, in the United States, you can, you know, be
00:06:17.620on the road, middle of the night, and, you know, at a red light, you stop. That's part of our
00:06:26.500heritage, you know, and living in parts of the world where, you know, that's just not the thing.
00:06:35.540And again, that's just a small example. There are many, many more, but that's just one really
00:06:41.020sort of tangible example. Another one is, you know, I live in a city, I live in the capital
00:06:45.520city here in Lusaka. And most people walk here in Lusaka, but there are almost no sidewalks.
00:06:56.240In the US, very few people are walking where they're going, but we have sidewalks everywhere.
00:07:03.040And that's part of our heritage, right? That's part of our heritage in terms of not just
00:07:09.600infrastructure either, but in terms of value of life, protection of life, you know, there are
00:07:18.080little things like that all over the place that just remind me of that long rooted heritage and
00:07:27.160culture. Amen. Yeah, I think part of the problem, this is one of my suspicions, but I think part of
00:07:33.000the problem is as America drifted the American church in terms of its doctrine and false gospels
00:07:38.960like the prosperity gospel sometimes there's an overreaction um and and i think at some level in
00:07:45.020our defense and shoring up the true gospel of jesus christ against particularly the the false
00:07:50.840gospel of prosperity uh we almost threw out the baby with the bath water in regards to a simple
00:07:56.560biblical principle in my assessment which is that obedience brings blessing and not just blessing
00:08:03.160it guarantees blessing in the life to come yeah but ordinarily and i'll give that qualifier
00:08:08.900ordinarily ordinarily obedience brings blessing in this life as well and that's that's not the
00:08:14.940prosperity what i always tell people is the prosperity gospel is the equivalent of me
00:08:18.720teaching my children that when they turn 18 every single friday they should stop at the same liquor
00:08:23.380store and buy a lottery ticket and play the same numbers and if they do it faithfully long enough
00:08:28.340eventually they'll be rich right it's the prosperity gospel is the power of positivity
00:08:32.680it's manifesting it's it's about faith in our faith it's hopeful it's wishing that's very
00:08:38.240different than than the basic biblical principle of hard work ordinarily is fruitful now there are
00:08:44.260some contexts that break the mold there's always exceptions there's some faithful christians in
00:08:48.840north korea yeah that aren't seeing a lot of fruit but that's why i say ordinarily but in a country
00:08:54.360like America, the Christian can expect that obedience would produce a certain measure of
00:09:02.620blessing, not just in the life to come, but even in this life as well. And so we look at whether
00:09:07.620it's the four-way stop and we're courteous, you know, and waiting our turn with a right-of-way
00:09:11.500or whether it's, you know, the sidewalks and the things that you've mentioned,
00:09:15.860seeing these as tangible physical blessings in this world, in this life, but they're directly
00:09:21.040correlated to obedience to the word of God where the word of God is received and honored and
00:09:27.660esteemed and obeyed not just by individuals but in societies at large we should expect there to
00:09:35.120be tangible blessings but I think we've just become so spiritual everything's spiritual that
00:09:41.080will reject the prosperity gospel and we kind of threw out in rejecting the prosperity gospel
00:09:46.180throwing out the bath baby with the bath water with that very biblical principle obedience brings
00:09:52.020blessing god is sovereign over the ends as well as the means right um and and so with my children
00:09:59.220um god is sovereign over the salvation of my children but the sovereign god has always also
00:10:05.740given me means he's given me very clear instructions about bringing up my children
00:10:10.060in the discipline and instruction of the Lord, you know, about me, you know, washing them and
00:10:17.220my wife with the water of the word, you know, again, the ends and the means. The other thing
00:10:22.960is that you say, you know, that obedience should bring blessing, but the fact of the matter is
00:10:28.240that obedience has brought blessing. If you look at a globe and you ask yourself, where are the
00:10:36.440freest, most prosperous, right? You know, safest people in the world. Where are women
00:10:44.560most protected? Where are women safest? Where do they have most protection and most rights1.00
00:10:50.480in the world? The answer is follow the Protestant Reformation, right? Where are the lowest0.97
00:10:57.160corruption rates in the world? Everybody's got some corruption, right? But where are
00:11:00.980the lowest corruption rates? The answer is follow the Protestant Reformation. Even in0.93
00:11:05.500Europe, Northern Europe versus Southern Europe. There's a huge difference. Protestant Reformation,
00:11:11.620Western Europe versus Eastern Europe, Protestant Reformation. And so, yeah, there not only should
00:11:17.880be, but there is blessing. And I think it's not only ironic, but sad that we refuse to acknowledge
00:11:26.300that. And in fact, if you think about it, the people who are, you know, complaining the most,
00:11:33.940For example, you know, where are women protesting the most about, you know, not having rights and not having protections in those parts of the world where they have it more than anybody else?0.71
00:11:45.340You know, I live in a part of the world where not too far from here, female genital mutilation is the norm, right?
00:11:53.220And child brides and selling brides, you know, that's a real thing, not too far from where I am.0.93
00:12:02.280So, you know, again, I think you're right.
00:17:38.400And now when this generation hits a crisis, all we've got is knee-jerk reactions.
00:17:47.580We've got nothing that's well thought out.
00:17:50.680And so that's why you see sort of shouting matches from people going off half-cocked
00:17:55.980who are using terminologies and promoting ideologies with which they've only become
00:18:02.400familiar recently. And I think that's what we're seeing right now.
00:18:09.740Right. Yeah. I think that that's absolutely true. It's tough with the pragmatism thing.
00:18:18.660It's tough for me because I don't want to be pragmatic. I see the drawbacks with that,
00:18:25.260But one of the debates that I've been in lately with some of my Baptist brothers is, well, it's got to be bottom up.
00:18:34.640If there is going to be revival or reformation, if there is going to be a stop, if we're going to put a stop to drag queen story hour, sexual mutilation of children, 65 million plus babies murdered in their mother's wombs.
00:18:53.780it's got to be it's got to be bottom up through the preaching of the gospel regenerate hearts
00:18:59.620um we need more christians and yet i feel like it's it's never less than that so my argument
00:19:07.940is never an alternative to that i'm a local pastor first and foremost i preach the gospel
00:19:13.140um so it's never less than that that's the tip of the spear but in addition to that i feel like
00:19:20.480Now, you can make an argument that in the 70s and the 80s and even the 50s and 60s that our numbers were skewed, that we were bolstering in typical Southern Baptist fashion, you know, a lot more on the roster than there actually are in the pew, that the numbers were skewed and that we had a lot of people attending church and professing Christ, but they weren't actually regenerate.
00:19:39.100And so you can say, because what I'm about to say is I think we've had the numbers and it still failed.
00:26:25.700um division is absolutely necessary division brings clarity and ultimately it brings real unity
00:26:33.060um you know the fact of the matter is the the people who divided um over all of these things um
00:26:43.220weren't with us wholeheartedly one day and then turned into different people the next
00:26:51.700these crises revealed underlying ideologies and commitments that that had always been there on
00:27:05.340both sides you know it revealed every man has an allegiance yeah absolutely and you know the but
00:27:12.960here was the issue there there were always disagreements right um even in you know sort
00:27:20.480of these broader Reformed circles, whether you call it Young Restless and Reformed, New
00:27:26.200Calvinism, you know, whatever you want to call it, these circles that were really sort
00:27:31.020of growing and percolating, you know, during that time that brought about the sort of Acts0.95
00:27:36.24029s and the T4Gs and the Gospel Coalitions and all of these sorts of things.
00:27:41.980Everybody knew that there were divisions, that there was a lack of agreement, right?0.96
00:27:49.100We had our Presbyterians and our Baptists and, you know, our Dispensationalists and Reformed and, you know, we had all of that and everybody acknowledged that we had those differences, yet there was something greater that was that was holding us together.
00:28:06.800Right. And so I don't think that, you know, with the Black Lives Matter movement and with COVID and all this, that somehow, you know, people change.
00:28:21.980I think the stakes changed. I think that these movements actually, you know, drew a line in the sand.0.60
00:28:30.860right they drew fault lines and they were non-negotiables they were more non-negotiable
00:28:41.240than pedo-baptism credo-baptism right so it's not that we didn't have disagreements before
00:28:51.380it's that these things came about and these things became non-negotiables and the culture
00:28:58.820made them non-negotiables, right? The culture is the one that said, you know, if you're, if you're
00:29:04.720wrong on this issue, racial justice as defined by the culture, um, you're outside the camp and there
00:29:12.760is no, you know, going along to get along. There is no neutrality on this issue, right? Baptism,
00:29:20.060you know, we can disagree on and go our own ways, but this issue of, you know, so-called racial
00:29:25.860justice, that's something where you disqualify yourself. So that's what we saw. That's what
00:29:33.360happened. And then all of a sudden, now we're seeing, you know, the other shoe that dropped.
00:29:39.000And I remember, right, I'm in the middle of, you know, being entrenched, you know,
00:29:44.720fault lines and all the attacks that are coming because of fault lines and, you know, people,
00:29:49.820people, you know, using means legitimate and illegitimate, you know, to try to, to try to
00:29:55.220discredit fault lines. And all of a sudden, you know, I felt like there was real traction.
00:30:02.900I felt like there were a lot of people who were saying, yes, amen. And thank you. Right.
00:30:09.640And then there was more boldness in, in, in, in what was in the side of the argument that had
00:30:18.460been forced into silence. There was more boldness in that side of the argument. And then all of a
00:30:24.140sudden out of nowhere, you almost get whiplash because people start going, yeah, well, you're
00:30:28.740worried about CRT, but what about this white Christian nationalism? Like what? Wait a minute,
00:30:38.700what you know um and they start you know citing books by people who are barely in the camp if at
00:30:49.620all um you know um and and i think a lot of us at that point were going okay first of all um define
00:31:00.520your terms you know like like what do you mean what are you talking about um define your terms
00:31:07.600You're saying, like, don't just talk past each other on Twitter.
00:31:11.120Maybe take the time to write, like, a statement on your terms of Christian nationalism, defining what you mean.
00:31:17.820Like, if someone did that, for instance, just hypothetically.
00:31:41.080Yeah, when we came out with that statement, you know, on social justice and the gospel, you know, the great thing about that was that it was a way for people to be identified, right?
00:31:57.400It was a way for people to say yay or nay.
00:32:01.300And that's what statements and confessions and things like that do, right?
00:32:06.260They get rid of the squishiness, you know, and, you know, sometimes people will say, yes, but and they have a legitimate, you know, grief.
00:32:19.520And they'll say this, you know, technical issue right here, you know, the way you worded that or the way, you know, whatever.
00:32:26.200Right. And that's fine. That's great, because that helps the people who write the statement to sort of massage it, you know, if necessary.
00:32:35.540But what we experienced was people just going, no.
00:33:02.660Yeah, that that was that was that was classic right there. But my point, but, you know, my point is that at first, you know, the people who were using the term Christian nationalism, I was white Christian nationalism, because, again, for the neo-Marxist and for the intersectional, you know, people, you know,
00:33:26.720You use all three of those terms because the demonic, hegemonic, oppressive power in the United States is, you know, white, male, heterosexual, cisgendered, native born, you know, able-bodied, you know, all down to, and then you get to, you know, Christian, right?0.61
00:33:48.900Christianity is at the root of the hegemonic power.0.61
00:33:51.860So when you say white Christian nationalism, you get an intersectional boogeyman, right?
00:33:57.980And so the lack of clarity was coming from the people who were using that terminology.
00:34:03.500So when I say define your terms, you know, I was like, what are you talking about?
00:34:10.760You know, I might agree that it's, you know, CRT is a problem and this thing, whatever you're defining is a problem.
00:34:17.820And then I go and read, you know, some of the books, you know, what is it, Codes de Mez, for example, and, you know, Jesus and John Wayne, which is one that everybody was touting and pointing to.
00:34:31.540And I'm going, this is not even in the camp, you know, this is this is out of bounds, not even in the camp, you know, and this is what we're what we're using and what we're touting for, you know.
00:34:45.300So I think now we're seeing a response on the other end where people are saying, okay, fine.
00:34:53.860If you want to throw that terminology around and not define it or define it poorly, you know, the other one, the really popular one was, was it Taking America Back for God?
00:35:07.260I forget the authors of that one, but that one had a lot of traction.
00:35:10.860I know what you're talking about. I can't remember.
00:35:11.960Yeah, but that one had a lot of traction as well.
00:35:15.300And at least, you know, made more of an effort to really define Christian nationalism.
00:35:20.140But the way they defined it included Jews and, you know, black people were included as white Christian nationalists and, you know, all this other sort of stuff.
00:35:29.100So it's now people on the other side going, OK, fine.
00:41:24.700And so, you know, you're already talking about something that's two, three steps ahead of where people are ready to, yeah, of where people are ready to engage.
00:41:37.820So, again, there's a lot of backfilling that needs to be done.0.51
00:41:44.440America is a country that was founded for the purpose of allowing Christians to do their duty before God and not to have their consciences ruled by the doctrines and commandments of men.
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