The NXR Podcast - THE LIVESTREAM - What Did Voddie Baucham Think About Christian Nationalism？

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00:00:26.800 Two years ago, Right Response Ministries had the privilege of hosting Dr. and Pastor Votie Bauckham

00:00:35.000 for a conversation about Christian nationalism, about division within the church, and about what

00:00:39.920 having a Christian nation actually looks like. And in this conversation, they discussed this

00:00:44.820 all-important point that really in the last two years, I think we all feel is just as timely and

00:00:49.720 if not more relevant today, that division is not necessarily a bad thing. That division is what

00:00:56.140 God actually uses to separate those who are in the fight versus those who are out of it. Those who

00:01:01.980 are serious about their faith, those who are serious about pressing forward the crown rights

00:01:06.940 of King Jesus, and those who really are actually more content to stay on the sidelines. Funnily

00:01:12.220 enough, sure, there are those that hate Christ and they hate Christianity. Of course, they don't want

00:01:17.120 a Christian nation. But often, honestly, it's those that claim to be Christians that say they love 0.99

00:01:23.080 Jesus. And then when it gets to the point of, so do you want Jesus to be enshrined at the highest

00:01:27.520 levels of your government? Do you want to see the state obey him? Do you want to see his principles

00:01:32.480 lived out across the nation and families and churches? Also, those who profess Christ say

00:01:38.100 they love him, say they want to obey him. It gets to that point and they say, oh, no, that's icky.

00:01:44.160 That's political. We don't want that. And division with those kinds of people, it's not actually a

00:01:49.460 bad thing. And so in this conversation from the vault, Pastor Joel and Pastor Voti are going to

00:01:54.160 sit down, they're going to discuss it, and we hope that today, over two years later, that it's just as

00:01:59.840 encouraging, just as timely, and just as prescient for you as we look to increase, we look to grow,

00:02:05.760 we look to wield political power righteously, and ultimately hope to have a Christian nation.

00:02:12.080 I have been blessed from a distance watching your ministry, reading some of the books that

00:02:16.580 you've written and you know i recently said in one of my podcasts and maybe even one of my sermons

00:02:20.660 i am post-millennial in my eschatology um but uh that doesn't mean that uh god exalts nations and

00:02:28.180 he decimates them when they're faithless to him and so uh within my eschatology you know it could

00:02:33.480 be 5 000 50 000 years before jesus returns i we don't know it could be five years but uh there's

00:02:39.480 no promise that america will endure so i've been encouraging christians to fight for our nation but

00:02:44.680 also save up for their grandkids uh zambia fund yeah go ahead and move over there with you

00:02:50.340 in case america becomes unlivable so yeah yeah no it's interesting i always all right i always

00:02:56.740 tell people you know i'm i'm millennial in my eschatology but i tell people you know i live

00:03:02.900 post mill wherever i am um so you know i i get you you know i'm i call myself optimistic i'm ill

00:03:10.500 you know right amen yeah a lot of my friends are optimistic all male and they're trying to live

00:03:15.880 faithfully uh like you know in their daily lives like a post mill and the thing that surprised me

00:03:21.120 surprises me is it actually um some of the guys who are like the most ferocious fighters um not

00:03:27.540 saying it's just a cultural war but it's both it is a spiritual war but here's what i always tell

00:03:31.420 people it's a spiritual war but between who right i mean god satan um but here's the thing god cares

00:03:38.580 about the world not just the 17th dimension in the ethereal plane like he cares about the world

00:03:43.080 satan cares about the world democrats care about the world it seems as though the only entity i'm

00:03:48.020 aware of that doesn't care about the physical tangible world is evangelicals that said um i

00:03:54.060 think some disby premill kind of guys uh even though i would disagree with their eschatology

00:03:59.560 some of those guys are the most faithful fighters um in the culture war not at the expense of

00:04:05.200 recognizing it is first and foremost a spiritual war, but spiritual wars have cultural implications.

00:04:10.820 They have tangible implications. And so to say, we're going to try to hit it at the head,

00:04:16.580 go to the root. But it's both and, it's not either or. Do you have any thoughts on that?

00:04:22.580 No, I mean, I agree wholeheartedly. And living in Zambia for the last seven, almost eight years

00:04:30.180 has really just sort of reinforced that for me.

00:04:34.040 You know, coming here and living here

00:04:36.160 has helped me to really see and appreciate

00:04:39.180 the fruit that the gospel has borne in the United States.

00:04:45.660 And it is an incredible blessing to live in

00:04:50.300 and to have been born in and raised in

00:04:53.860 and inculcated in a society

00:04:57.820 that has so much residue from its Christian heritage that we really take for granted. 0.99

00:05:06.280 Right. Yeah. From the Christian heritage. I heard you with Tom Askell recently saying that,

00:05:13.000 you know, the Zambians, you know, the Christians in our nation, we envy their preamble,

00:05:18.420 a distinctly Christian preamble, but that they actually envy our heritage and that the heritage,

00:05:24.540 the preamble matters right why why not both let's have both if we if we can let's work towards both

00:05:30.080 but uh but that the heritage um has stronger implications in in the here and now could you

00:05:35.920 could you flesh that out a little bit what what do you see is the heritage of america

00:05:40.160 yeah it just i've often said that you if you want to know everything that you need to know

00:05:49.480 about a culture, just experience a four-way stop. And you'll see what's really ingrained

00:05:58.340 in the culture, whether people are stopping, waiting their turn, being courteous, or whether

00:06:06.920 the only law is the law of physics and whether or not I can get my bumper in front of yours.

00:06:12.620 And, you know, it's interesting, you know, in the United States, you can, you know, be

00:06:17.620 on the road, middle of the night, and, you know, at a red light, you stop. That's part of our

00:06:26.500 heritage, you know, and living in parts of the world where, you know, that's just not the thing.

00:06:35.540 And again, that's just a small example. There are many, many more, but that's just one really

00:06:41.020 sort of tangible example. Another one is, you know, I live in a city, I live in the capital

00:06:45.520 city here in Lusaka. And most people walk here in Lusaka, but there are almost no sidewalks.

00:06:56.240 In the US, very few people are walking where they're going, but we have sidewalks everywhere.

00:07:03.040 And that's part of our heritage, right? That's part of our heritage in terms of not just

00:07:09.600 infrastructure either, but in terms of value of life, protection of life, you know, there are

00:07:18.080 little things like that all over the place that just remind me of that long rooted heritage and

00:07:27.160 culture. Amen. Yeah, I think part of the problem, this is one of my suspicions, but I think part of

00:07:33.000 the problem is as America drifted the American church in terms of its doctrine and false gospels

00:07:38.960 like the prosperity gospel sometimes there's an overreaction um and and i think at some level in

00:07:45.020 our defense and shoring up the true gospel of jesus christ against particularly the the false

00:07:50.840 gospel of prosperity uh we almost threw out the baby with the bath water in regards to a simple

00:07:56.560 biblical principle in my assessment which is that obedience brings blessing and not just blessing

00:08:03.160 it guarantees blessing in the life to come yeah but ordinarily and i'll give that qualifier

00:08:08.900 ordinarily ordinarily obedience brings blessing in this life as well and that's that's not the

00:08:14.940 prosperity what i always tell people is the prosperity gospel is the equivalent of me

00:08:18.720 teaching my children that when they turn 18 every single friday they should stop at the same liquor

00:08:23.380 store and buy a lottery ticket and play the same numbers and if they do it faithfully long enough

00:08:28.340 eventually they'll be rich right it's the prosperity gospel is the power of positivity

00:08:32.680 it's manifesting it's it's about faith in our faith it's hopeful it's wishing that's very

00:08:38.240 different than than the basic biblical principle of hard work ordinarily is fruitful now there are

00:08:44.260 some contexts that break the mold there's always exceptions there's some faithful christians in

00:08:48.840 north korea yeah that aren't seeing a lot of fruit but that's why i say ordinarily but in a country

00:08:54.360 like America, the Christian can expect that obedience would produce a certain measure of

00:09:02.620 blessing, not just in the life to come, but even in this life as well. And so we look at whether

00:09:07.620 it's the four-way stop and we're courteous, you know, and waiting our turn with a right-of-way

00:09:11.500 or whether it's, you know, the sidewalks and the things that you've mentioned,

00:09:15.860 seeing these as tangible physical blessings in this world, in this life, but they're directly

00:09:21.040 correlated to obedience to the word of God where the word of God is received and honored and

00:09:27.660 esteemed and obeyed not just by individuals but in societies at large we should expect there to

00:09:35.120 be tangible blessings but I think we've just become so spiritual everything's spiritual that

00:09:41.080 will reject the prosperity gospel and we kind of threw out in rejecting the prosperity gospel

00:09:46.180 throwing out the bath baby with the bath water with that very biblical principle obedience brings

00:09:52.020 blessing god is sovereign over the ends as well as the means right um and and so with my children

00:09:59.220 um god is sovereign over the salvation of my children but the sovereign god has always also

00:10:05.740 given me means he's given me very clear instructions about bringing up my children

00:10:10.060 in the discipline and instruction of the Lord, you know, about me, you know, washing them and

00:10:17.220 my wife with the water of the word, you know, again, the ends and the means. The other thing

00:10:22.960 is that you say, you know, that obedience should bring blessing, but the fact of the matter is

00:10:28.240 that obedience has brought blessing. If you look at a globe and you ask yourself, where are the

00:10:36.440 freest, most prosperous, right? You know, safest people in the world. Where are women

00:10:44.560 most protected? Where are women safest? Where do they have most protection and most rights 1.00

00:10:50.480 in the world? The answer is follow the Protestant Reformation, right? Where are the lowest 0.97

00:10:57.160 corruption rates in the world? Everybody's got some corruption, right? But where are

00:11:00.980 the lowest corruption rates? The answer is follow the Protestant Reformation. Even in 0.93

00:11:05.500 Europe, Northern Europe versus Southern Europe. There's a huge difference. Protestant Reformation,

00:11:11.620 Western Europe versus Eastern Europe, Protestant Reformation. And so, yeah, there not only should

00:11:17.880 be, but there is blessing. And I think it's not only ironic, but sad that we refuse to acknowledge

00:11:26.300 that. And in fact, if you think about it, the people who are, you know, complaining the most,

00:11:33.940 For example, you know, where are women protesting the most about, you know, not having rights and not having protections in those parts of the world where they have it more than anybody else? 0.71

00:11:45.340 You know, I live in a part of the world where not too far from here, female genital mutilation is the norm, right?

00:11:53.220 And child brides and selling brides, you know, that's a real thing, not too far from where I am. 0.93

00:12:02.280 So, you know, again, I think you're right.

00:12:05.460 I would just add that caveat.

00:12:06.880 Not only should it bring blessing, but it has.

00:12:10.800 Well, that's great.

00:12:11.560 I love your caveat because I was trying to go real reasonable, 0.97

00:12:14.560 play the good cop, I'll let you do the bad, bloody bad cop.

00:12:17.460 Because I was trying to be real reasonable and say, you know, 0.91

00:12:19.480 it could, obedience might, can we at least consider it might bring blessing?

00:12:22.760 And I love that you said, no, no, no, no, no.

00:12:25.080 It does bring blessing because I agree.

00:12:27.480 so i i see in many ways it feels like um you and i would both agree neutrality is a myth

00:12:33.380 um the myth of neutrality uh that that all laws are moral um that that and i'm not saying you're

00:12:39.620 necessarily comfortable with this word but i would i'll just speak for myself i would see that uh for

00:12:43.980 every individual for every family for every um for every nation that is in the civil realm every

00:12:49.080 government that that it is theocratic uh which for the record that scares people a theocracy is

00:12:54.820 very distinct from an ecclesiocracy. I've never advocated for a church-run state. I'm not

00:13:01.140 advocating for a Protestant pope. But I do think that the reality is that theocracy, not ecclesiocracy,

00:13:08.260 separation of church and state, but no separation of Christ and state. Caesar is under God. Caesar

00:13:14.380 is a servant. He's a deacon. He is not head of himself. So every single entity, both the family,

00:13:21.700 the church and the state it's not excluded from this principle there is a god above them and and

00:13:27.140 it's not whether but which it is a theocracy it's either a theocracy that that ultimately is

00:13:32.660 underneath in submission to the triune god as god or it's demos the people or the state it's

00:13:38.860 statism totalitarianism all these different things or it's pagan some pagan god and so with all that

00:13:44.300 being said it seems like we've switched gods in the west um and and you could argue at the time

00:13:50.060 you know 50 years ago 130 years ago you could go back to the enlightenment you know or whatever but

00:13:54.980 we've switched gods and it seems like you know this this these ships move slowly um because of

00:14:01.740 the principle of sowing you know uh sowing and reaping um and and and god's faithfulness he will

00:14:06.100 not be mocked and so you sow you sow good seed you're going to reap a harvest for a while after

00:14:10.920 you stop sowing and so these ships chrysidom and and i think paganism that they they have been kind

00:14:18.400 of slowly passing in the night and it seems like there was not just a couple weeks or months or

00:14:23.220 years but decades in our nation where the two ships were kind of like like side by side they

00:14:28.300 had lined up for a moment and it was it was seemingly because they move slow a long moment

00:14:32.280 that gave the optic that that neutrality is viable uh that it actually works but it doesn't and and

00:14:40.900 i'm of the persuasion that secularism is not viable uh that it's actually a placeholder it

00:14:46.220 functions as as not a host but but a parasite once it's killed its host namely chrysidom

00:14:51.480 that the secularism will actually only be replaced by some form of paganism and and it seems as though

00:14:58.420 that's been ramping up and a lot of young guys like me are seeing that because we haven't lived

00:15:03.140 the majority of our lives in in you know our adult lives my adult life was not in in the 70s in the

00:15:09.260 80s in the 90s um i was i was a little kid born in the 80s and so a lot of my adult life what i've

00:15:15.980 seen is is classical liberalism uh and and some of our systems utterly failing and so i i don't

00:15:25.200 have a strong dog in the fight of like we got to get back to that i'm so there's a lot of young

00:15:29.720 guys right now are like let's be christian let's be a christian nation and let's bring that into

00:15:34.800 the civil realm what would you say to young guys like me where where are we is there too much zeal

00:15:40.880 Are we on track?

00:15:43.540 What are we doing right?

00:15:44.940 What are we maybe doing wrong?

00:15:46.520 Yeah, I think there are a couple of issues at play.

00:15:49.660 And one of those issues is kind of a theological nearsightedness, theological ignorance.

00:15:59.060 And I think for a long time, you think about the church growth movement, all the way from the Jesus movement, right, in the 60s and 70s.

00:16:07.880 this sort of big revivalist movement and, you know, church is growing and then the church growth

00:16:14.040 movement. You know, I'm 54. I came to faith, you know, at 18. And so I saw a lot of that stuff,

00:16:27.080 right? And there was this sense in which, you know, if you just pull the right levers,

00:16:33.200 the church would grow

00:16:36.280 and you know

00:16:38.340 and then the religious right

00:16:40.140 comes along

00:16:41.720 and again if we

00:16:44.440 just use our influence

00:16:46.200 you know if we just have

00:16:48.440 the right people in the right place

00:16:50.080 then we can get the people that we need

00:16:52.400 and the places that we need

00:16:53.880 and you know

00:16:56.520 we can make things happen because again

00:16:58.140 we're this big powerful

00:17:00.220 behemoth

00:17:01.820 with churches that have thousands of people.

00:17:06.200 And in the midst of that, what we weren't doing was thinking.

00:17:11.020 What we weren't doing was theology.

00:17:14.740 We became extremely pragmatic during that time.

00:17:19.820 And so we've got a couple of generations now

00:17:22.240 of people who have been raised in pragmatic Christianity

00:17:27.100 who haven't been thinking, who weren't mentored or discipled by people who thought very much

00:17:34.920 other than, you know, pragmatism.

00:17:38.400 And now when this generation hits a crisis, all we've got is knee-jerk reactions.

00:17:47.580 We've got nothing that's well thought out.

00:17:50.680 And so that's why you see sort of shouting matches from people going off half-cocked

00:17:55.980 who are using terminologies and promoting ideologies with which they've only become

00:18:02.400 familiar recently. And I think that's what we're seeing right now.

00:18:09.740 Right. Yeah. I think that that's absolutely true. It's tough with the pragmatism thing.

00:18:18.660 It's tough for me because I don't want to be pragmatic. I see the drawbacks with that,

00:18:25.260 But one of the debates that I've been in lately with some of my Baptist brothers is, well, it's got to be bottom up.

00:18:34.640 If there is going to be revival or reformation, if there is going to be a stop, if we're going to put a stop to drag queen story hour, sexual mutilation of children, 65 million plus babies murdered in their mother's wombs.

00:18:53.780 it's got to be it's got to be bottom up through the preaching of the gospel regenerate hearts

00:18:59.620 um we need more christians and yet i feel like it's it's never less than that so my argument

00:19:07.940 is never an alternative to that i'm a local pastor first and foremost i preach the gospel

00:19:13.140 um so it's never less than that that's the tip of the spear but in addition to that i feel like

00:19:20.480 Now, you can make an argument that in the 70s and the 80s and even the 50s and 60s that our numbers were skewed, that we were bolstering in typical Southern Baptist fashion, you know, a lot more on the roster than there actually are in the pew, that the numbers were skewed and that we had a lot of people attending church and professing Christ, but they weren't actually regenerate.

00:19:39.100 And so you can say, because what I'm about to say is I think we've had the numbers and it still failed.

00:19:43.720 That's kind of what you just said.

00:19:45.180 And then I know some of my brothers would say, but we didn't really have the true numbers

00:19:48.360 because there wasn't solid, faithful gospel preaching that actually converts the soul.

00:19:54.060 And I see all of that.

00:19:55.560 This is my one pushback to not even what you said, but to some of my brothers is 0.67

00:20:01.060 the Sodomites took 3%, less than 3% of the population. 0.91

00:20:06.260 And with a 40 to 50 year plan, they have effectively replaced the flag of the United 0.86

00:20:12.740 states of america with a rainbow and my point in saying that is that um it's never less than

00:20:19.720 bottom-up gospel preaching regeneration new hearts and yet at the same time um there are christians

00:20:28.560 now who actually as individual christians not just churches talking about politics

00:20:33.320 individual christian men serving as civil magistrates and and they're wanting to know

00:20:38.920 how how can i be a city council member christianly does the bible say something to me in my vocation

00:20:47.340 or is it just the sphere of home and church and if the bible does like am i supposed to be a

00:20:53.460 christian in every realm of life but when i walk into this sphere the public sphere that i take

00:21:00.780 that Christian hat off, that I lay it aside, I adopt neutral terms? Or can I say, yeah, it's 0.62

00:21:09.520 got to be bottom-up, preach, regeneration, salvation, discipleship, and at the same time

00:21:16.020 that we can ethically and even must, commanded by God ethically, to pull some of these state

00:21:22.200 levers in a Christian direction? What do you think? I'm always skeptical. Whenever somebody

00:21:29.880 says to me, it has to be dot, dot, dot. That's not the God I serve, right? Sometimes the king

00:21:40.480 finds the word of God and revival breaks out, right? That's right. So yeah, I'm never comfortable

00:21:49.260 when someone says it has to be this or it has to be that. I think the answer is all of the above.

00:21:59.600 I think the answer is faithfulness wherever we find ourselves, right?

00:22:04.100 That has to be the answer, you know, faithfulness wherever we find ourselves.

00:22:11.240 Amen.

00:22:12.300 So talk to me about Fault Lines.

00:22:14.500 You wrote the book.

00:22:16.140 I read the book.

00:22:17.080 Me and everybody in the whole world, it seems.

00:22:19.000 I mean, it was a popular book.

00:22:20.540 Was it a bestseller?

00:22:22.040 Did it make any bestselling list?

00:22:23.520 Yeah, it did.

00:22:24.220 Congratulations.

00:22:25.680 Well done.

00:22:26.180 You earned it.

00:22:26.980 It was a great book.

00:22:27.940 it was it just you and you before writing the book you've been doing this you know through

00:22:32.020 preaching and teaching and conferences um the ethnic gnosticism did you you coined that right

00:22:36.920 that term yeah so and all the way back i think and correct me if i'm not giving you enough credit but

00:22:42.100 it's as early as 2012 you were kind of sounding some of these alarms yeah really earlier than

00:22:48.120 that you know okay yeah really really earlier than that well done so i mean you you saw these

00:22:55.160 things long before i did you know and i i'd like to give myself a little bit of an excuse and say

00:23:00.580 that you were seeing things when i was still in high school you know so maybe maybe you know

00:23:04.440 maybe i you know providentially i was born a little bit too late but uh yeah you've done an

00:23:09.820 excellent job fault lines was so helpful putting words to certain things because because everybody

00:23:14.260 i mean there's so many christians in the pews they're just like what is going on why why why

00:23:19.420 are two men that i that i respect and i've respect for years all of a sudden at each other's throats

00:23:25.820 and and drifting apart and now i think people have made sense of it right 2017 18 19 so in 2018

00:23:32.820 just for context so i was an axe 29 pastor uh we left um i pulled the church out in 2018 right

00:23:40.200 after eric mason wrote woke church and so um when that happened i pulled our church out of axe 29

00:23:46.280 I spent all of 2019 with my elders and leaders in the church saying, I'm tired of doing theology

00:23:52.980 a la carte. I don't want to just be a Calvinistic Baptist. Praise God, bless them. But I'd like to

00:23:58.620 be a confessionally reformed Baptist. So we spend a year, every single week, hours working through

00:24:04.780 the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith. We were able to adopt that at the end.

00:24:09.680 I was pastor in Southern California, 2020 hit. So this is right before March, 2020.

00:24:14.260 things go crazy uh we have some disagreements on how to respond to covid um i i'm saying let's

00:24:22.340 open the church there's some other guys saying open the church there's some other guys saying

00:24:25.320 let's not um the lord works through that eventually you know things are good we opened let the record

00:24:31.600 state we opened um a good six weeks before macarthur made it cool and so now granted it's

00:24:37.600 It's easier to open a 150-person church than a 10,000-person church, but we did open before

00:24:45.320 MacArthur.

00:24:46.220 And then at the end, I'm from Texas.

00:24:50.660 My wife's parents moved to Texas.

00:24:52.380 Her sisters and husbands and kids moved to Texas.

00:24:54.560 My parents are in Texas, and 2020 really made me miss Texas, and so we ended up leaving

00:25:00.720 and handing the church over to...

00:25:02.940 Yeah, exactly.

00:25:04.060 so we handed the church over to faithful faithful guys and the church is doing well uh but but we

00:25:09.020 left and and planting you know doing a new work here in georgetown texas just north of austin

00:25:13.020 texas and uh far enough for the police not to be defunded and close enough for people to commute

00:25:17.380 to work and so we you know we're doing a work here but my point in saying all that is that um

00:25:22.520 fault lines uh was you know you know i was seeing some of these things 2017 18 really

00:25:29.700 psalm 2020 your book makes sense of it you know gave it gave some extra clarity and hindsight

00:25:35.460 and for a lot of other evangelicals and realizing you know russell moore god bless him he's not on

00:25:40.540 my team he's not on our team uh david french is not on our team um francis collins is not on our

00:25:45.980 team um and and so boom i feel like we kind of with wokeness with with uh positions on the state

00:25:52.320 and tyranny and and the branch covidians and all the you know whatever you want to call it

00:25:55.700 We lost about half the team, it feels like. 0.88

00:25:58.580 It does feel like that, yeah.

00:25:59.740 But now it's like, are we about to lose?

00:26:04.300 Is the team going to split again?

00:26:06.980 Because it's like the first set of fault lines was over who sees the problem.

00:26:11.020 And it seems as though there may be some new fault lines shaping up over who sees the solution.

00:26:17.500 Unite us, buddy.

00:26:19.200 Help us not divide.

00:26:21.260 What do you think?

00:26:22.500 Yeah.

00:26:23.600 Division is necessary.

00:26:25.700 um division is absolutely necessary division brings clarity and ultimately it brings real unity

00:26:33.060 um you know the fact of the matter is the the people who divided um over all of these things um

00:26:43.220 weren't with us wholeheartedly one day and then turned into different people the next

00:26:51.700 these crises revealed underlying ideologies and commitments that that had always been there on

00:27:05.340 both sides you know it revealed every man has an allegiance yeah absolutely and you know the but

00:27:12.960 here was the issue there there were always disagreements right um even in you know sort

00:27:20.480 of these broader Reformed circles, whether you call it Young Restless and Reformed, New

00:27:26.200 Calvinism, you know, whatever you want to call it, these circles that were really sort

00:27:31.020 of growing and percolating, you know, during that time that brought about the sort of Acts 0.95

00:27:36.240 29s and the T4Gs and the Gospel Coalitions and all of these sorts of things.

00:27:41.980 Everybody knew that there were divisions, that there was a lack of agreement, right? 0.96

00:27:49.100 We had our Presbyterians and our Baptists and, you know, our Dispensationalists and Reformed and, you know, we had all of that and everybody acknowledged that we had those differences, yet there was something greater that was that was holding us together.

00:28:06.800 Right. And so I don't think that, you know, with the Black Lives Matter movement and with COVID and all this, that somehow, you know, people change.

00:28:21.980 I think the stakes changed. I think that these movements actually, you know, drew a line in the sand. 0.60

00:28:30.860 right they drew fault lines and they were non-negotiables they were more non-negotiable

00:28:41.240 than pedo-baptism credo-baptism right so it's not that we didn't have disagreements before

00:28:51.380 it's that these things came about and these things became non-negotiables and the culture

00:28:58.820 made them non-negotiables, right? The culture is the one that said, you know, if you're, if you're

00:29:04.720 wrong on this issue, racial justice as defined by the culture, um, you're outside the camp and there

00:29:12.760 is no, you know, going along to get along. There is no neutrality on this issue, right? Baptism,

00:29:20.060 you know, we can disagree on and go our own ways, but this issue of, you know, so-called racial

00:29:25.860 justice, that's something where you disqualify yourself. So that's what we saw. That's what

00:29:33.360 happened. And then all of a sudden, now we're seeing, you know, the other shoe that dropped.

00:29:39.000 And I remember, right, I'm in the middle of, you know, being entrenched, you know,

00:29:44.720 fault lines and all the attacks that are coming because of fault lines and, you know, people,

00:29:49.820 people, you know, using means legitimate and illegitimate, you know, to try to, to try to

00:29:55.220 discredit fault lines. And all of a sudden, you know, I felt like there was real traction.

00:30:02.900 I felt like there were a lot of people who were saying, yes, amen. And thank you. Right.

00:30:09.640 And then there was more boldness in, in, in, in what was in the side of the argument that had

00:30:18.460 been forced into silence. There was more boldness in that side of the argument. And then all of a

00:30:24.140 sudden out of nowhere, you almost get whiplash because people start going, yeah, well, you're

00:30:28.740 worried about CRT, but what about this white Christian nationalism? Like what? Wait a minute,

00:30:38.700 what you know um and they start you know citing books by people who are barely in the camp if at

00:30:49.620 all um you know um and and i think a lot of us at that point were going okay first of all um define

00:31:00.520 your terms you know like like what do you mean what are you talking about um define your terms

00:31:07.600 You're saying, like, don't just talk past each other on Twitter.

00:31:11.120 Maybe take the time to write, like, a statement on your terms of Christian nationalism, defining what you mean.

00:31:17.820 Like, if someone did that, for instance, just hypothetically.

00:31:19.920 Just hypothetically.

00:31:21.020 Just hypothetically.

00:31:22.280 You know, but the great thing about statements, you know, because, again, in 2000, you know, man, COVID just messed up the calendar.

00:31:32.600 I think it was the social justice statement.

00:31:34.460 Yeah, 18.

00:31:35.180 Was that?

00:31:35.660 Was it 18 or 19?

00:31:36.560 I think it was 18 or 19.

00:31:37.600 Yeah, you know, when we came out.

00:31:40.200 I signed it proudly.

00:31:41.080 Yeah, when we came out with that statement, you know, on social justice and the gospel, you know, the great thing about that was that it was a way for people to be identified, right?

00:31:57.400 It was a way for people to say yay or nay.

00:32:01.300 And that's what statements and confessions and things like that do, right?

00:32:06.260 They get rid of the squishiness, you know, and, you know, sometimes people will say, yes, but and they have a legitimate, you know, grief.

00:32:19.520 And they'll say this, you know, technical issue right here, you know, the way you worded that or the way, you know, whatever.

00:32:26.200 Right. And that's fine. That's great, because that helps the people who write the statement to sort of massage it, you know, if necessary.

00:32:35.540 But what we experienced was people just going, no.

00:32:42.500 And we're going, okay, why?

00:32:44.120 Where?

00:32:44.980 Just no.

00:32:46.160 It's not wrong.

00:32:47.960 It's just pastorally unwise and insensitive.

00:32:51.540 Right.

00:32:52.060 It's not what the statement says.

00:32:54.840 Yeah.

00:32:55.160 It's what it does.

00:32:56.100 Yes.

00:32:56.840 Exactly.

00:32:57.720 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:32:58.560 Tim Keller.

00:32:59.360 Tim Keller, yeah.

00:33:00.240 Yeah, that's right.

00:33:00.920 It's not what it says.

00:33:01.900 It's what it does.

00:33:02.660 Yeah, that that was that was that was classic right there. But my point, but, you know, my point is that at first, you know, the people who were using the term Christian nationalism, I was white Christian nationalism, because, again, for the neo-Marxist and for the intersectional, you know, people, you know,

00:33:26.720 You use all three of those terms because the demonic, hegemonic, oppressive power in the United States is, you know, white, male, heterosexual, cisgendered, native born, you know, able-bodied, you know, all down to, and then you get to, you know, Christian, right? 0.61

00:33:48.900 Christianity is at the root of the hegemonic power. 0.61

00:33:51.860 So when you say white Christian nationalism, you get an intersectional boogeyman, right?

00:33:57.980 And so the lack of clarity was coming from the people who were using that terminology.

00:34:03.500 So when I say define your terms, you know, I was like, what are you talking about?

00:34:07.380 What do you mean?

00:34:08.060 I might be right there with you.

00:34:10.760 You know, I might agree that it's, you know, CRT is a problem and this thing, whatever you're defining is a problem.

00:34:17.820 And then I go and read, you know, some of the books, you know, what is it, Codes de Mez, for example, and, you know, Jesus and John Wayne, which is one that everybody was touting and pointing to.

00:34:31.540 And I'm going, this is not even in the camp, you know, this is this is out of bounds, not even in the camp, you know, and this is what we're what we're using and what we're touting for, you know.

00:34:45.300 So I think now we're seeing a response on the other end where people are saying, okay, fine.

00:34:53.860 If you want to throw that terminology around and not define it or define it poorly, you know, the other one, the really popular one was, was it Taking America Back for God?

00:35:07.260 I forget the authors of that one, but that one had a lot of traction.

00:35:10.860 I know what you're talking about. I can't remember.

00:35:11.960 Yeah, but that one had a lot of traction as well.

00:35:15.300 And at least, you know, made more of an effort to really define Christian nationalism.

00:35:20.140 But the way they defined it included Jews and, you know, black people were included as white Christian nationalists and, you know, all this other sort of stuff.

00:35:29.100 So it's now people on the other side going, OK, fine.

00:35:33.620 Here's where here's where we stand.

00:35:36.100 Here's what we understand in all of this.

00:35:39.640 But again, it's part of this same battle.

00:35:45.880 It's just the next front in this same battle.

00:35:50.480 And we have to clarify it.

00:35:52.220 I think theology sharpens over time, and it sharpens with sharp disputes, disagreements. 0.51

00:35:59.220 In fact, in the providence of God, he often raises up heretics just so that the church

00:36:03.700 will go back to the drawing board and shore up their theology on the hypostatic union

00:36:08.260 or is it short you know and and we forget that it's like yes there is a strength undoubtedly

00:36:13.720 i'm confessing there's a strength to church history but we forget that it that it took

00:36:17.940 about 400 years to figure out who god is you know and and and to figure out is the you know

00:36:23.500 the dual nature of christ as the second member of the trinity and and the way i see the big picture

00:36:29.280 and it's part of this is my post-millennialism talking but i you know the first thousand years

00:36:33.600 it's like theology proper doctrine of god the next thousand years soteriology right that's a

00:36:38.080 big one let's let's figure the dial that in with the reformation figure out how are people saved

00:36:41.640 i i have a sneaking suspicion right here on the beginning of this third millennium

00:36:46.320 um since since christ and and his earthly ministry i think christian ethics is going to be a big one

00:36:53.440 i don't know if it'll be the one but i think you know who is god um who is man and how is he saved

00:36:59.920 soteriology but then christian ethics and i and i think the civil magistrate is going to be a big

00:37:04.760 part of that and our understanding of um how do these things play out how does this apply how does

00:37:11.080 you know go ahead it seems like you're going to say something yeah and i'm saying even in in all

00:37:15.520 of those things it was never new right there were there were always people who were right on all of

00:37:22.740 those things. Um, but, but, but the time, you know, it took time to sort of separate the wheat

00:37:29.660 and the chaff. And it's the same here. There are people who've been writing and thinking, um,

00:37:36.720 rightly on these issues for a long, long time. And interestingly enough, what people are having

00:37:43.680 to do is to go back to some of those people who were writing and thinking rightly on these issues.

00:37:52.240 you know in in order to sort of um you know backfill and and and move forward um and it's

00:38:01.320 like you said it's a good thing because it sharpens it's absolutely necessary but here's

00:38:07.080 the problem the problem is like i said before what the culture has done is

00:38:14.200 it has emasculated us okay when we talk about sharp disagreement and you know sharp disagreement

00:38:27.560 being used to sharpen us right that's very masculine as iron sharpens iron so one man

00:38:34.380 sharpens another that's very masculine and our effeminate culture hates masculinity and because

00:38:43.100 of that. It hates sharp disagreement. And so sharp disagreement is no longer allowed. It's

00:38:49.100 just disqualification. It's cancel culture, right? You're not saying the right thing on this.

00:38:55.840 Therefore, you are disqualified. You are wicked. You are excommunicated. 1.00

00:39:02.540 Right. What I hear you saying is, no, we don't need a false, trite, shallow sense of unity.

00:39:08.780 we need the the true unity that comes providentially by god's grace through division

00:39:15.000 iron sharpening iron but but the problem is we can't even get not only can we not get to the

00:39:20.100 true unity we can't get to the true unity because we can't even get to the true division right now

00:39:24.660 we still see squabbling over um tone method um we need to i'd like to see some real division over

00:39:32.800 arguments over substance and and that goes for both sides um by the way like but we really need

00:39:38.360 to engage. Make me an argument from the Bible. Give me Bible for why Christian culture is a net

00:39:49.200 negative. I understand Christian culture in a societal at large way can produce or at least 1.00

00:39:57.860 influence nominal Christianity, nominal seminaries, nominal doctrine, nominal preaching to the point

00:40:05.200 where the gospel is assumed eventually neglected eventually utterly lost uh to produce less

00:40:11.600 conversion now but wait a second you're making me that argument do you catechize your kids

00:40:17.120 did you take them out of public school and put them in a christian school or home school

00:40:22.060 so in the sphere of your individual family you're treating christian culture not as though it's

00:40:28.900 salvific because no one's saying that but you are treating it as though it is good that the law of

00:40:35.400 god has an evangelistic sense no man will be saved by works as done unto the law but it is a tutor

00:40:40.460 and the law insofar as it accurately reflects god's holiness it therefore reveals man's sinfulness

00:40:47.320 and drives us to christ as the only one who can fill that infinite chasm um yeah but you're doing

00:40:53.400 that in your home can we do that in a country can we do that in a country but think about what i

00:40:58.240 said before with, you know, the, the Jesus movement and the church growth movement and

00:41:03.500 all these other things, there was an anti-intellectualism and an anti-confessionalism.

00:41:09.080 And because of that, you know, talking about the law, talking about the threefold division

00:41:15.160 of the law, talking about the three uses of the law, this is, this is foreign to an entire

00:41:23.200 generation, right?

00:41:24.700 And so, you know, you're already talking about something that's two, three steps ahead of where people are ready to, yeah, of where people are ready to engage.

00:41:37.820 So, again, there's a lot of backfilling that needs to be done. 0.51

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The NXR Podcast - September 29, 2025

THE LIVESTREAM - What Did Voddie Baucham Think About Christian Nationalism？

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