As Christians, we hear a lot of talk about enemies. Even last week, our podcast topic was about what it means to hate our enemies and the enemies of Christ. We hear of the culture war that Christians are supposed to engage in, the spiritual war that we should focus on, and the political war we are unsure of. The questions for today are: What war or wars are evangelical Christians engaged in? What allies do we have? and what tactics should we use? Tune in now!
00:06:40.340You know, this is the ideological war, the war of politics and lawfare and things like that going on in the West and in our nation here in America in particular.
00:06:49.120So a couple of different types of wars, a two front war or even a multi front war where one nation or army is having to fight off multiple enemies or they're trying to make advances in different types of war.
00:07:01.220And this gets tricky because you spread yourself thin, kind of like you mentioned earlier, Joel.
00:07:05.200You're fighting in 17 different places.
00:07:06.700You can't actually meaningfully engage in any of them.
00:11:43.720Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think civil war, but, you know, there are multiple, probably
00:11:51.560sub positions subgroups within each of the two major sides um so there's a sense in which you
00:11:59.140know like for instance you know i've said before um and you know in regards to the question um
00:12:05.700is there is there uh really a war on whiteness right this is something that was you know going
00:12:11.840on on twitter and continues to but a few you know maybe a month ago a few weeks ago uh there were
00:12:18.080guys who were saying uh there's not really a war on whiteness it's just a war on christianity
00:12:23.660but whiteness historically you know like chrysidom took root in a lot of anglo
00:12:30.740cultures and uh you know european countries and america and all these countries were predominantly
00:12:37.140white and so therefore you know there's a war on whiteness but um but it's not really a war0.55
00:12:43.360on whiteness per se it's really a war on christ and and that war against christ uh christ has been
00:12:50.320most clearly represented throughout christendom as of recently you know the recent uh centuries
00:12:55.520by white western nations and so therefore there's this war on whiteness um whereas i i just i think
00:13:01.880that that's too simplistic and so i would disagree and say no there um there really is a war on white
00:13:06.360people um our world really does hate uh white people uh christian or not and i don't think you
00:13:12.680know, for the unbelieving white person who's hated, um, in our, you know, under our current0.84
00:13:17.100regime. Um, I don't think he's, um, exclusively hated because, uh, he has, you know, uh, some
00:13:25.660reminiscent, you know, uh, you know, element of Christianity, even though he himself is
00:13:32.060unregenerate and not a practicing Christian. Um, no, I, I think he's, he's just hated, um,
00:13:37.600because he's white. So I, I think, you know, you don't have one war on Christianity and then,0.99
00:13:41.720And then that just happens to look like a war on whiteness because Christianity for the last few centuries has been very white.0.78
00:13:49.220But no, I think you have two, like a Venn diagram, you have two distinct circles, two distinct wars, a war on whiteness, a war on Christianity.0.66
00:13:55.900And there is absolutely a lot of overlap, but I do believe that there are two distinct wars.
00:14:01.580So all that being said, as it pertains to right now in our country with this, what I would consider a cold, I do think it's still cold in the sense that we don't have armed militia, you know, everyone's not taking up arms and fighting in a literal, physical sense.
00:14:17.500But it is certainly a cold war, I think you're right, that's heating up and bullets.
00:14:22.160It's more than just ideology and lawfare.
00:16:18.600You know, and so I do think that there is, so even for those who are on the same major
00:16:23.940side of the two major sides of, you know, the progressive godless side versus the, you
00:16:29.220know, traditional Christian side, even within the traditional Christian side, there is,
00:16:33.840you know, minor skirmishes, you know, intramural skirmishes with each other. Are we trying to get
00:16:41.560back to, you know, the 1600s? Do we want to get back to Cotton Mather, you know, or do we just
00:16:49.200want to get back to, you know, the 1980s? Right. You know, and then on, you know, on the progressive
00:16:56.560side, the anti-Christian side, there are, they too have intramural skirmishes. Like, there are,
00:17:02.240you know skirmishes there are intramural debates and fights uh between is it you know uh clinton's
00:17:11.260pelosi's you know biden uh uh versus the squad you know aoc and ilhan omar and you know like
00:17:20.420there's there's a debate even amongst them of like how right how progressive do we actually
00:17:26.200want to be they all want to be you know very progressive um but uh how progressive do we
00:17:31.760want to be and that also you know brings up the issue of israel for instance like i i think that
00:17:36.380um a big reason why um you know like uh josh josh shapiro was passed over in pennsylvania
00:17:42.800um you know and opting for tim walls in minnesota is you know i think a number of factors but one
00:17:49.500of the big ones is that uh you know that joshua shapiro has been pro-israel right that he's a jew
00:17:55.620and has, you know, distinctly pro-Israel remarks on record from the past.
00:18:01.900And as much as he tried to, you know, apologize for those remarks and walk them back.
00:18:07.160And I mean, yeah, I kind of feel bad for the guy.
00:18:09.460Like, I mean, the guy really denounced his Jewishness, you know,0.99
00:18:14.820and it was like, no, never mind, you know, Israel sucks.0.99
00:18:17.640And I kind of hate myself, you know.0.97
00:18:19.220As much as he tried to do that, it wasn't enough to appease the anti-Israel-Palestinian faction that's rising within the Democratic Party.
00:18:34.920And so they have their own inner skirmishes, you know, and whether it be on, you know, Israel and then we have our, you know, as conservatives, inner, you know, mural skirmishes, Israel being on our side, too.
00:18:49.620You have, you know, guys on the right who are like, I'm not sure Israel is our greatest ally.0.77
00:18:56.120You know, I would be one of those guys.
00:18:57.500I don't think that we need to send billions of dollars to Israel.0.99
00:19:00.620I don't think that Israel is our greatest ally.0.54
00:19:02.320I think that Israel's influence on America has been largely negative.0.99
00:19:08.240I'm not saying that Israel should be wiped off the map.
00:19:10.940I think they're a sovereign nation state.
00:19:13.460They deserve the right to defend themselves.
00:19:15.660They do not have a right, though, to our sons and daughters.
00:19:19.200Sadly, daughters would be included these days in the potential of a draft.0.94
00:19:22.940And so, no, I don't think that our posterity should go and bleed out and die in the Middle East for Israel.
00:19:30.900although I do think that they are a legitimate, valid nation-state.0.77
00:19:34.820And for the record, I'm not saying that they came about in a legitimate fashion.
00:19:39.200I'm not saying—you have to realize that most nations that exist today exist because of some kind of means.
00:19:49.020And their introduction, when they first, you know, were forming and being, you know, concentrated as a nation, there were a million different questionable variables, you know.
00:20:04.520So, but at a certain point, and we've talked about this before, but I call it the providence factor, right?
00:20:10.580So, like, I don't think that Biden won our election.
00:20:14.960But I do think that all the scriptures that talk about, you know, pray for the emperor, you know, honor the king, those kinds of things, I think that that does apply for Christians in these United States towards, you know, your current leaders.
00:20:29.120Meaning that at a certain point, even if somebody came in unethically, at a certain point, they are, for all intents and purposes, your leader.0.89
00:20:37.920And so all that being said, back to Israel, I think that it was a mistake.0.97
00:20:41.840I think it was a massive mistake to take modern Jewish people and drop them in a sea of Islam.1.00
00:20:50.820I think that you are never going to have peace.1.00
00:20:53.160That was a recipe for unending, constant war.
00:20:56.860I don't think it will ever end, and I would like to see America out of it.
00:21:09.840and uh and israel is for all intents and purposes uh they are a legitimate nation state today and
00:21:16.440therefore they have all the rights of a legitimate nation state and so so so long as and i'm not
00:21:21.360saying that they are or they aren't but so long as they are adhering to uh the elements of just
00:21:26.120war theory and defending you know their their own citizenship um then i i think they absolutely have
00:21:31.200a right to do that they do not have um uh we don't have an obligation as a foreign entity to be
00:21:37.100involved and they don't have a right as a foreign entity to have personal apac handlers for every
00:21:42.520single gop you know uh candidate except for thomas massey i think that that's absolutely insane so
00:21:47.200all that being said and uh on the right you know you've got ben shapiro and uh and dennis prager
00:21:54.620right and um and then you've got uh guys who are saying uh no we agree with you on some things
00:22:02.580you know um and we appreciate some of your work um but uh but we vehemently disagree on on other
00:22:09.640things so um so i think those are the two main so i would say civil war is the type of war that
00:22:13.680we're currently in uh cold war getting warm uh getting quite warm is the stage of war that we're
00:22:19.800at uh in terms of the civil war like like all civil wars you have two main factions two main
00:22:25.020sides north and south in this case you know christian progressive uh but then within the
00:22:29.580progressive. I think you have intramural, smaller subgroups and factions in part on the issue of
00:22:37.720Israel. And then with the Christian side, the more traditional side, you have some intramural
00:22:45.900debates, and part of that is about Israel. But in a larger sense, I think it's bigger than just
00:22:50.220Israel. I think one of the main intramural debates, if we had two subsections of the
00:22:56.540conservative Christian side. I would say our two subsections are Christian conservatives
00:23:01.520who basically believe that nobody has been morally correct until 1940, and then those
00:23:13.580who actually think that 1940 in the post-war consensus was actually a step back. And that's
00:23:21.160the debate that you see even between sadly theonomist um and guys you know um some of the
00:23:26.580natural law guys is if we're talking about the raw theology um i i uh have more in common with
00:23:33.860the theonomist as a general equity theonomist um and so i find my home theologically more with that
00:23:39.080side unfortunately though um the theonomist in not not each and every individual but in general
00:23:45.900On the whole, the theonomists tend to be the boomer post-war consensus guys, and a lot of the Stephen Wolf natural law guys are guys who have an older frame of mind, the paleoconservative guys who are saying, no, we don't want to just get back to the 1980s and usury, and no, we actually want to go back further.
00:24:10.240And so we have our intramural fights as well.
00:24:14.380Well, so Joel, hearing you explain just that makes me realize that this is a complicated
00:24:32.000I'll chime in on them too, but we're going to try and go through them somewhat quickly
00:24:35.720about—to try and diagnose where we're at and how Christians should proceed.
00:24:42.180So we'll take our first break first right now, and then when we come back, we'll start tackling as many of these questions about the war that we're in and how Christians should behave in it on the other side of the break.
00:24:56.860Right Response Ministries 2025 conference is a go.
00:25:01.500This is three days, full jam-packed conference with eight main sessions, three to four hour-and-a-half long panels, and an all-star, super-based lineup of speakers, 15 speakers in all.
00:27:50.120So the first question, and this is the most kind of philosophical question that I want
00:27:56.400to ask here, Joel, is what is the difference between our battle against spiritual forces,
00:28:02.520the Christian battle of the centuries, and our current battle against societal forces that want
00:28:09.440to eliminate Christianity from Western civilization. In other words, is the battle0.68
00:28:16.380for a nation or for a civilization a legitimate war that Christians ought to enter in? Do they0.86
00:28:23.460have permission, or even should they enter into that kind of a war?
00:28:27.920Yeah, not only permission, but an obligation. So my answer is a resounding yes. Real quick for the algorithm, we got a bunch of guys who have just tuned in. We appreciate it. Thanks for tuning into the show. Go ahead and help us out. Give us a thumbs up. Help us with the algorithm. Let's get it out to as many people as possible.
00:28:44.480So, Michael, the question that you're posing is basically like what I did earlier in saying, okay, there's a war for the defense and expansion of Christianity, and to pose that in the negative in regards to our opponents, there's a war against Christianity.
00:29:03.100And then the question is, is there a war against Christianity and therefore a war against whiteness?0.51
00:29:09.200Because in the recent, at least the last 500 years and arguably the last thousand years, going back to King Alfred and maybe even before, that Christendom has been dominant in Western civilizations that have predominantly been white civilizations.0.66
00:29:24.380So there's really just a war against Christianity, and therefore, you know, there's a war against whiteness because Christianity has taken root and had so much success in predominantly white cultures and countries.0.99
00:29:37.320My position, as I stated earlier, is no, I think that's true.0.92
00:29:41.960There's a truth there, but I don't think that that is the most helpful rhetoric in framing it in the most accurate fashion.
00:29:48.200I think there are actually not one but two distinct wars with, I would say, you know, an 80% overlap.
00:29:53.880It's a significant overlap in these two wars, but I think that it's helpful to think of
00:30:00.320two actual distinct wars, not just one.
00:30:02.760One war on Christianity, and then one being a war on whiteness.
00:30:06.100And now you're basically reframing the question and saying, so with two distinct wars, instead
00:30:12.360of whiteness, you're just kind of subbing in Western civ.0.56
00:30:14.920So Western civilization, tradition, history, culture, and then again, Christianity.0.73
00:30:20.760Or if we have viewers who live in another nation, you know, is it valid to fight for the soul of your nation, wherever it might be?
00:30:28.200So we'll start with the, you know, specifically as it pertains to Western civilization.
00:30:32.080So with those, likewise, being two distinct wars, a war on Christianity and then this also, this war on Western civilization, I believe that, one, those are two distinct wars.
00:30:43.380War on Christianity and whiteness, two distinct wars, lots of overlap.0.79
00:30:46.340War on Christianity and Western civilization, two distinct wars, lots of overlap.
00:30:51.480Certainly, it is permissible and obligatory for the Christian to fight the good fight of faith, to fight for Christianity.
00:31:00.540It's defense, it's preservation, and it's expansion that the knowledge of the glory of God would fill the whole earth as the waters cover the sea.
00:31:07.540So certainly, that one is plain in Scripture.
00:31:10.020is it permissible though for christians to fight for the defense and preservation and even perhaps
00:31:16.600expansion of western civilization i would say yes not only is it permissible but obligatory
00:31:24.420and and the reason why is because i see western civilization not perfectly because we're dealing
00:31:31.520with humans and humans are sinners even christians still sin and so it's imperfect and there are
00:31:37.020flaws that can be pointed out. But on the whole, big picture, 30,000-foot view, Western civilization
00:31:42.740is the product of Christendom, and Christendom is the fruit of Christianity. And so I think that in0.80
00:31:48.780the same way that we have an obligation, it's not only permissible, but we are morally obligated
00:31:53.600to defend the Christian faith and Christian doctrine, the Christian gospel, Christian belief,
00:31:59.980in the same way we're obligated to defend Christianity, I think we have an obligation
00:32:05.040within the Christian framework to defend all the good fruit that Christianity has brought about.
00:32:13.740Christianity is what produced Christodom, and Christodom is the story of the West. It is.
00:34:36.000And so it's not just that one is, you know, it's just two different cultures.0.95
00:34:41.340No, one culture is actually superior to the other.0.71
00:34:44.920And so all that being said, as it pertains to Western civilization, I believe just even our judicial system and the way that our courts function, or at least the way that they did before so much apostasy and so much degradation and the way that we're turning our back on Western civilization because of turning our back on Christ and so much corruption that has come into the court system and to law.0.91
00:35:10.300Well, previously, not that long ago, much of our, and still, by God's grace, we don't deserve it,
00:35:17.780but as a mercy, a lot of good things still remain intact. There's a lot of good Christian residue.
00:35:24.780But traditionally, in the American system, in the English system, and many European countries,
00:35:31.960the case law system that's been employed judicially comes from the Bible.
00:35:38.460The idea of there needing to be two or three witnesses, the idea that you can commit perjury, that you need to swear an oath, if you're going to take the stand to tell the truth and nothing but the truth and the whole truth, being considered innocent until being proven guilty, and that proof of guilt having to be beyond a shadow of a doubt, presumed innocence.
00:36:06.060all of this comes from christian thought these are biblical principles and so a defense my point
00:36:13.400is a defense of western civilization western culture is a defense of the very thing that
00:36:19.400western culture was built by which is christendom and christendom is a direct line you know a direct
00:36:24.820correlation of the fruit of christianity so the reason why i think uh that not only is it
00:36:30.620permissible but we're actually obligated those of us who are citizens in the west to preserve
00:36:35.620our Western culture is we are preserving what Christianity, our mother, has produced. And also
00:36:43.420we're honoring the fifth commandment and preserving what our fathers built and fought for and the
00:36:49.740heritage they built for us. And then your final question, okay, well, what about certain cultures
00:36:55.580and nations that are not Western? So what if the heritage of your country is predominantly
00:37:02.040Islamic, you know, or it's predominantly pagan, you know, or you're in some sub-Saharan,
00:37:08.680you know, African nation that's, you know, 97% Muslim. Do you have an obligation to preserve0.75
00:37:15.500your culture, to preserve that kind of civilization? Well, if you're a Christian1.00
00:37:21.140living in a predominantly Muslim, you know, nation like France, you know, but like the Sudan,0.86
00:37:30.440you know or something like that france and you know in 20 years and um and it's absolutely what1.00
00:37:34.960they deserve and if america doesn't change its course then it'll be what we deserve as well0.93
00:37:39.320but but uh if you're living in some sub-saharan you know african country and it's predominantly
00:37:46.440muslim do you have but you happen to be a christian born again by grace of faith in christ
00:37:51.560do you have an obligation to defend um your heritage in terms of your natural temporal
00:37:58.480heritage of what you've been born into? Do you have an obligation, a moral obligation under God
00:38:04.820to preserve something that has been built in opposition towards the triune gods, something
00:38:12.160that is anti-Christ? And I would argue no. So I would say the reason why we are fighting for
00:38:18.480Western civilization is because Western civilization is Christian. It's Christian.0.96
00:38:23.760And then to go back to the person who lives in a predominantly Muslim nation,
00:38:28.480I think wherever your culture and your virtues and your values that you've grown up in overlap with your Christian faith as a converted Christian, then all truth is God's truth.
00:38:40.720So wherever you do find things that ultimately have their roots in the Christian worldview, like traditional marriage.
00:38:48.740So wherever you find Muslims fighting against LGBT, then great.1.00
00:39:28.380Yeah, I would add to that the fact that the gospel and the word of God are the only two things that have the inherent authority to demand, absolutely demand, that a culture or a nation change.
00:39:43.780So outside foreign pressure, you can coax and aid, but you can't just march in and impose your values on another nation.
00:39:50.980However, the gospel, I think, will do two things.
00:39:54.900It will utterly destroy some practices and replace them with Christian practices, or it will redeem some of the perspectives.
00:40:03.520So, for instance, if you look in a lot of Asian countries, there is a very, very high value on respecting and honoring father and mother.0.93
00:40:12.180and then it gets idolatrous with the way they do that with ancestors.0.93
00:40:33.460But there will be other practices that a nation would utterly have to abandon.0.86
00:40:37.160And so if you're in a nation that's not Christian or Christian heritage,0.95
00:40:40.380you ought to, kind of the way you've talked about in the past, Joel, where Noah's sons covered his0.93
00:40:46.740nakedness. You honor the things that are just part of common grace, or even outside, like the
00:40:53.100food, or the music, or just things that are part of the land that you live in. Continue to honor
00:40:58.660those things, esteem them, love them, but work for the gospel to either obliterate idolatry or
00:41:04.360reframe and reshape the traditions that have been passed in.
00:41:08.560Right. It would be the same as Catholicism, you know, that I think Protestants, you know, part of, you know, Protestantism is an overreaction in the sense that Protestants by and large are constantly rebelling against the fifth commandment.
00:41:25.240right, Protestants, especially Baptists, of which I am one, but sadly, and especially
00:41:32.420Independent Fundamental Baptists, with just a disdain, outright aversion towards church history
00:41:40.280and church fathers. And so Roman Catholicism is wrong in the sense that there's a worship,0.83
00:41:47.460and it's, oh, we're just venerating. No, no, you're not. You are worshiping Mary. They uphold
00:41:52.440Mary as a co-redemptrix. Immaculate conception is not a doctrine surrounding the birth of Christ,0.83
00:41:57.520it's surrounding Mary, her own birth, that she was born without original sin. They believe that
00:42:02.440she is sinless, full of grace, and the treasury of merit, not Mary, but merit, is this idea that
00:42:10.420from all of Mary's good works, if you don't have enough of your own, you can borrow some of hers,
00:42:16.780as well as other saints, and then also an authority. It's not just that she's co-redemptrix,
00:42:22.120so she is saving alongside her son Jesus. He's primary savior, but she's like the sous chef
00:42:27.540savior, second in command. But then there's also, she's a subordinate savior, but she's actually a
00:42:34.780superior officer in a sense that if there's anything that you want, any kind of petition
00:42:41.420or request that you want to make to God, well, you go to Jesus, his son. He's a mediator, right?
00:42:47.300There's one God and one mediator between God and man, God, man, Christ, Jesus.
00:42:52.240But then Roman Catholicism introduces several other mediators, chief being Mary.
00:42:57.780And so, you know, if God feels too lofty, well, you can go to his son Jesus.
00:43:02.400If Jesus feels too lofty, then, you know, well, John chapter 2, the wedding at Canaan,
00:43:06.440you know, Mary looks to the servants and says, do whatever, you know, Jesus says, it's not
00:43:09.600my time, you know, when Mary says that they've run out of wine at this wedding feast.
00:43:14.200And then, so Jesus essentially, you know, the Catholic interpretation is he's saying no, but then Mary turns to the servants and just ignores Jesus' answer and says, do whatever he tells you, you know, essentially, according to, you know, papal, you know, papist Roman doctrine, that Mary was able to override Jesus' decision.
00:43:34.640So Mary is basically saying, it doesn't matter what Jesus wants, if I want it, he's going
00:43:46.400And so anyway, so praying to saints, trusting in saints and their ability to get Jesus to
00:43:54.480do what you want, or that some of their extra merits and their earthly life and good deeds
00:43:59.120they did, that that somehow would be able to help you, that the work of Christ is not sufficient,
00:44:05.300that it can be supplemented by the merit of saints. All of that is a perversion and idolatry
00:44:10.240and sin. But Protestants, back to my point, Protestants have overcompensated, and Protestants,1.00
00:44:18.920I believe, have broken the fifth commandment and don't honor their fathers at all. And so,0.95
00:44:22.580So the same thing that you could do in certain Asian cultures with ancestral worship and saying, look, your honor for your elders is good, but worshiping your ancestors is idolatrous and wrong.
00:44:37.360uh so too i think the same lesson uh could be uh said to uh catholics um our catholic friends
00:44:43.920and saying look um there's in one sense um we protestants um uh we actually have have uh i
00:44:52.420think uh sent and broken the fifth commandment and there's there's something about catholicism
00:44:56.880that is actually good uh there's a good instinct there but it's been taken uh way too far to the
00:45:02.000point of idolatry. So, you need to repent of that. But the fact that you guys, that you love
00:45:07.240Athanasius and Augustine in a way that Independent Fundamental Baptists would basically say that,
00:45:13.500Independent Fundamental Baptists, it's sad, but it's really similar to Mormonism. It's the idea
00:45:18.820that, you know, all cults, and I'm not saying they're a cult necessarily, I do think that they
00:45:22.820have a true gospel, but they're cult-like, you know, in this instance, all cults, at least0.53
00:45:30.400Christian-type cults that are spinoffs of Christianity, what they do is they basically
00:45:35.000say that we had the truth in the first century church, but then it was lost, but then it was
00:45:41.240recovered fairly recently, 100 years ago, 150 years ago, whatever, by our guy, Joseph Smith,
00:45:50.140or whatever. Charismatics do this with Azusa Street Revival, that like, well, the gospel wasn't
00:45:56.220loss, you know, again, I'm not going to say that charismatics is a cult. It's not. Some of them
00:46:00.820are cult-like, but not all charismatics. But they do have this cult-like element in the sense of,
00:46:07.580you know, but there's a substantial, significant piece of Christianity that was utterly lost after
00:46:12.140the first century, but then Azusa Street, 1906, we got it back. Independent Fundamental Baptists,
00:46:16.960same kind of thing. It's like, well, you know, we lost, you know, faithfulness, that good old
00:46:20.220time religion, you know, and so they would look at Athanasius and Augustine and Aquinas and,
00:46:25.300you know, and Anselm and all down the ages and Calvin and Luther and, and, and just kind of,
00:46:30.780you know, Zwingli and write them all off. And so, you know, so they, I think, should learn
00:46:36.420from better Protestants and, and Catholics, you know, you could, you could say the same thing.
00:46:41.880There are good things here, but, but you've gone too far.
00:46:44.840Good. Okay. So that was the biggest question. We're going to take our next break and we'll
00:46:49.140come back and we'll do some that are a little bit more shotgun. They're a little more specific.
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00:48:50.540America is a country that was founded for the purpose of allowing Christians to do their duty before God
00:48:54.740and not to have their consciences ruled by the doctrines and commandments of men.
00:48:58.500Reese Fund exists in order to see the Ten Commandments properly applied,
00:49:02.200not just as a plaque on the wall, but to actually be used in business
00:49:05.520as though they're commandments from God that we're supposed to obey.
00:49:09.240Our goal is to find businesses and to buy them and to build them up.
00:49:14.100We want to find manufacturing businesses and use them to make sure that we can maintain
00:49:51.220He said, with what's going on in England, in order to save England, there it is, the0.85
00:49:56.920only way England will prevail is to remove the citizenship of millions of Muslim immigrants0.94
00:50:00.500and their children who were born there.0.72
00:50:02.340i doubt they have the stomach for it so given that agree i do too given that evangelicals are
00:50:10.100involved in the two battles that you said but legitimately are involved in the battle for the
00:50:14.820for their civilization for western civilization that's going to lead to certain tactics and
00:50:22.020weapons of warfare so my question here joel is uh right now with where we are trying to save
00:50:28.500Western civilization, do you think the political battle is the tip of the spear? And I don't mean
00:50:34.760just this election, voting for Trump or not. What I mean is, do we need to be putting serious
00:50:41.360effort, money, time, energy, and focus into getting Christians into positions of power0.94
00:50:48.000in order to turn, through legal means, the tide away from evil and towards righteousness? Is that0.92
00:50:56.600the tip of the spear right now? Is that something that the average Christian family should consider
00:51:01.960supporting a Christian candidate, that sort of thing? Like, should the Christians in the pews1.00
00:51:06.540be thinking about how they can support, pray for, and pursue the political effort in this battle?
00:51:15.260Yeah, I don't know. You know, that like brings up one of the questions that people, you know,
00:51:22.020Like, is it a political war, the cultural war, or is it a spiritual war?
00:51:25.900And, you know, everybody will say, it's a spiritual war, you know, and that's, you know, that's, yeah, it is a spiritual war fundamentally.
00:51:33.480So the tip of the spear, I think, is that we wrestle not with flesh and blood, but with principalities and, you know, and so I agree with that.0.96
00:51:41.940the principal war that the Christian is always engaged in is with spiritual entities, with dark,0.96
00:51:53.180demonic powers. And so the spiritual war, I think, is the tip of the spear. But what Christians need0.92
00:51:58.680to recognize is that, you know, Satan, he, you know, 1 Timothy says this, you know, rebuke your
00:52:05.840opponent with gentleness, not knowing if he might, you know, if God might bring him to repentance
00:52:09.500after it says it continues after having been taken captured or captive by satan to do his will
00:52:17.460so here's the deal like uh we are fundamentally in a spiritual war but in the spiritual war our
00:52:23.260opponent takes flesh and blood captive that's right so so yeah your your war is uh fundamentally
00:52:30.160it's not with Nancy Pelosi. But Nancy Pelosi has been taken captive by dark presences to do the
00:52:41.240bidding of her father, Satan. She's not a Christian. John chapter 8 would apply to her,0.98
00:52:47.780where Jesus, you know, he says to the Pharisees, you're not children of Abraham. And, you know,
00:52:51.620then they appeal, oh, we're actually children of God. No, you're not children of God. If you
00:52:55.880are like God, children always bear a striking resemblance to their father. So, if you were
00:53:00.740actually a child of Abraham, you would behave like Abraham. You would look like Abraham. What's0.98
00:53:05.220one of the characteristics of Abraham? Well, prophetically, he saw the Messianic promises
00:53:10.360of Jesus. And so, Jesus says, he saw my day and was glad. Looking forward through the quarter of
00:53:16.740time by the Spirit in faith, he saw my day and rejoiced. You see me. The day is now here. I'm
00:53:22.700standing right in front of you, and you hate me. And so, what are your characteristics?
00:53:27.800They're not the characteristics of Abraham or God, but your characteristics, two big ones,0.97
00:53:33.200you know, Jesus says comes to mind, you're liars, you're bearing false witness,0.98
00:53:37.240producing, you know, lying witnesses, and you're also murderous. You want me dead,1.00
00:53:45.100an innocent man who's done no wrong. And so, you bear the characteristics and the striking
00:53:51.080resemblance to your daddy, the devil. And so, likewise, Nancy Pelosi is a daughter of her0.70
00:53:56.700father, Satan. Satan is her father. She is not regenerate. There's no way. And, oh, well, you0.99
00:54:03.120can't say that because God alone sees the heart. That's right. But Jesus tells us that we can tell,
00:54:07.720we can discern by fruit. And so, there's no way. There's absolutely no way that she is
00:54:14.520a Christian. And so, our war is with Satan. It's a spiritual war, but Satan took Nancy Pelosi1.00
00:54:20.920captive to do his bidding. And so, we do, it's predominantly that verse in Ephesians.
00:54:26.720And he uses her policies to take other people captive.
00:54:29.180Exactly, exactly. And ideology, ideas, and propaganda, and curriculum in schools,
00:54:36.360and economic policies, and taxation, all these different things. So, we are at war with all
00:54:41.400these things. In the primary sense, our war is spiritual. But if you're just some, but you have
00:54:49.280to beg the question, what does it mean to engage in the spiritual war? If you're only engaging
00:54:55.160in spiritual ways, in a war that is predominantly spiritual, but if you're only exclusively engaging
00:55:02.600in spiritual ways, going to church, praying, fasting, these kinds of things, which are all
00:55:10.720good. I'm not saying less than that. I'm arguing for more. If you're only engaging in those ways,
00:55:15.500then you're immediately at a disadvantage because your spiritual enemy is not content to only wage
00:55:23.040spiritual warfare with spiritual methods. He is waging his war against Christ by utilizing every
00:55:34.600method under the sun. He's doing it legally. He's doing it financially, economically. He's doing it
00:55:44.420through physical warfare and physical violence at every single level. That's the war that he's
00:55:52.280waging. And so we have to fight, I think, on every front. So predominantly, primarily, it is a
00:55:57.280spiritual warfare in terms of our tactics, you know, your primary question was, do we get involved
00:56:05.220politically? And I think, you know, the answer is yes, I think to varying capacities based off of,
00:56:12.160in part, your resources, and then also in part based off of your giftings. And so, some Christian0.63
00:56:20.580men should be running for local office. They should. Other Christian families are going to
00:56:26.280support through their vote and also financially certain campaigns and be involved in certain
00:56:33.080events and lobbying and these kinds of things. And that would be, you know, less of a time
00:56:37.700constraint. And, you know, so they could still work another job and be involved on other fronts.
00:56:43.140And then some, it's just, you know, look, I've got enough to give to my local church
00:56:49.380right um and and uh and and then feed my family and try to own a home so that i can leave an
00:56:56.240inheritance to my children and and we're just barely getting by uh in in such a way that we
00:57:01.260can actually be a one income family where mom can stay home and homeschool the kids and that's
00:57:05.460that's all we've got so given the choice between um financially supporting a political candidate
00:57:11.380who is an abolitionist, which is awesome, versus, let's say I can support these righteous
00:57:23.740candidates in the political sphere, but I still need my wife. If I'm going to do that, my wife
00:57:29.160is going to have to work out of the home, versus we can bring mom home and get the kids out of
00:57:34.020public school, but in terms of charitable giving, we'll be able to give to our church and actually
00:57:40.100less than a tithe. This is something that a lot of pastors probably wouldn't say. Given the choice
00:57:45.240between tithing and getting your wife out of work, get your wife out of work. Give something to the1.00
00:57:50.440church and be working towards a tithe as a goal. But it would be, I don't want a family tithing at
00:57:56.940my church if it requires them to send their kids to public school. So all that being said, and I
00:58:02.520honestly, I think that's usually, usually if you press and ask some specific questions and they're
00:58:07.620honest enough that's a false dichotomy usually um they you know there's other things that they can
00:58:12.460cut back on in the budget and blah blah blah so uh so it just depends it just depends on the
00:58:16.700person what are your resources uh financially what are your resources in terms of time and
00:58:20.940then what are your resources time talent and treasure so you know what what treasure do you
00:58:25.780have finances what time do you have and then what talent do you have like do you have a knack for
00:58:30.380legislation and and like can you could you be a politician right then go for it if not um i think
00:58:36.900every Christian, and I would say it like this, in the same way that the global evangelism,
00:58:42.660global missions guys, you know, used to tell us all the time, David Platt, you know, and
00:58:47.300John Piper, and they would tell us at every, you know, conference every year again and again and
00:58:52.000again ad nauseum, you know, that everybody is called to global missions. You know, the question
00:58:56.760is just how. Some are called to go, and others are called to send, you know, or support. I would say
00:59:02.380the same thing as it pertains to politics in your nation. Everybody, if you're called
00:59:09.360to push Christ's kingdom further in other nations, if every Christian, if that is true,
00:59:15.460that every Christian is called to some capacity of advancing Christ's kingdom in global missions,
00:59:21.980that means advancing Christ's kingdom in other nations, then certainly every Christian is called
00:59:27.280to advance christ's kingdom in their nation um and and so um and and to do that in any tangible
00:59:34.680sense and not just be a pietist you know with the jesus juke but to do that in a real sense
00:59:40.960because here's the deal your opponent is doing it in a real sense right satan is not content
00:59:45.260to have authority over the 17th dimension and the spiritual plane that that hovers above
00:59:51.880these United States. No, he actually wants the country. He wants it practically, financially,
00:59:58.340physically. He actually wants the country. He's fighting a real war. He's not just fighting
01:00:05.380in the 17th dimension. He's fighting, he's taking captive flesh and blood in order to do his bidding
01:00:12.700in an earthly, temporal, physical, tangible way. And so our battle is first and foremost with him,
01:00:19.400but if we're going to to fight him the weapons that he's using that he's deploying are bills
01:00:26.760legislation that's right um politicians uh media oh my goodness like so christians you want to war
01:00:35.320against satan um you need to make and hearing you need to make christian media especially for
01:00:42.120children but but when i say christian this is what i mean you need to make good media right it not
01:00:48.240something that children of Christian parents feel obligated to watch because it's Christian,
01:00:54.720but they want to watch because it's good, and that's precisely what makes it Christian.0.59
01:00:58.720So in all these ways, and it just depends what is your skill set. Not everybody. I think everybody0.63
01:01:03.740should vote in local and federal elections. Although I'm not, you know, somebody's like,
01:01:08.400I can't vote for, you know, I'm going to write in third party or whatever. I get it. I'm not going
01:01:12.300to say that you're in sin. I think it's foolish, but I'm not going to say you're sinning. But I
01:01:16.580think in local elections, everybody needs to be voting. In federal elections, I'd like to see
01:01:20.380every Christian voting. Beyond that, politically, beyond a vote, I don't think that every Christian1.00
01:01:25.800has to financially support campaigns. I don't think that every Christian has to run for local
01:01:30.980office, but every Christian does need to fight in tangible ways. Some, it will be politically,
01:01:36.100by giving or by actually campaigning and legislating. Others, it'll be, if I got a guy
01:01:43.440in my church who's uh who's writing a book for children right uh with every you know free you
01:01:50.720know waking hour that he has you know um then uh and he's and he's not lobbying for uh the
01:01:57.440conservative candidate candidate in our county i'm going to support that of course good i was
01:02:02.200going to mention deception and i was going to mention the missions movement and you touched
01:02:06.300on both of those. We'll move to the next question. And I want to get through two. So the first of
01:02:14.000the last two is, who are the allies that evangelical Christians can rely on? And this is a huge
01:02:23.280question, but specifically, is a big tent mindset good, given that we seem to just continually lose
01:02:33.080people that used to be considered friends or should be more selective with who we jump into
01:02:38.760foxholes with hmm repeat the question one more time um well it's it's who are the allies right
01:02:47.240but then do we want a big tent mindset with allies for winning this war or are we saying i'm tired of
01:02:53.400losing guys that six months ago were on my team and now they're shooting at me from my side right
01:03:00.280yeah that one's tough um because i want to be fair i want to be honest and and i should be
01:03:08.340specific what i mean is you look at like the methodist church which ostensibly is a church
01:03:14.920but they're not on our side in this battle right they're not even on the side of christ here right
01:03:19.360yeah right so i don't i don't necessarily mean a theologian that you have a there are in this
01:03:25.100a second or third tier disagreement with and you kind of go at it on twitter for a while
01:03:29.640Yeah, United Methodist Church is absolutely the enemy.
01:03:34.280They're not co-belligerents in any way.
01:03:37.680But as for the intramural skirmishes and fights within the Christian, traditional, pro-America side of the aisle, our team, our larger team, I don't know what—
01:03:55.640I don't, because part of it, like, I don't think that I would do some of the things that I see other guys doing in terms of, you know, friendly fire, you know, and shooting our own and those kinds of things.
01:04:08.580But I want to be honest and admit that I am not in that position and I never have been.
01:04:15.020And what I mean by that is, this is what I've noticed, is it seems as though, well, it's like animal farm, right?
01:04:23.320So like the humans, you know, it seems like, oh, the humans are really just for themselves and they don't really care about the animals and they just use the animals to do their bidding and, you know, to provide for them and resources and blah, blah, blah.
01:04:34.360But if, you know, but if one of us, you know, if we ever, you know, we're able to, you know, dethrone the humans and take their spot, you know, we're, you know, you can trust us because we're one of you.
01:04:44.720and you know and you know um the whole moral of the story is the pigs you know end up taking over
01:04:49.500the farm and the pigs turn out to be just as bad as the humans and you know the final scene is
01:04:54.000they're walking on two you know their two hind legs and for all intents and purpose they're just0.79
01:04:58.200right you know they're just humans that are now ugly you know pigs um but they abuse the horses
01:05:04.780and the animals and everybody else and so i think there's a truth to that sadly and and um and so my0.50
01:05:12.540point is you know big eva right so i think you know like russell moore and blah blah like big
01:05:18.600big eva has been the gatekeepers um you know they're the ones who say you know jump and
01:05:24.120everybody else has to say how high and they set you know they set the standards and you know all
01:05:28.680these kinds of things and they've had you know the their hands on the levers of power and um
01:05:33.100for a very long time and by god's grace you know the overton window has really been shifting um
01:05:38.380COVID just did a number on Big Eva, you know, and then BLM right after.
01:05:44.800It was just kind of like a one-two punch, you know, that you got the right and then you got the left.0.60
01:05:48.900And a lot of Christians, a lot of blue-collar Christians in the pews, you know, whether it be in the SBC or whether it be in the PCA or just a non-denominational, you know, church, you know, the veil was lifted.0.53
01:06:02.300And they started to realize, oh, David French is not our guy, you know, Francis Collins is not our guy, Russell Moore is not our guy.
01:06:08.380you know like um these guys are not for us right they're not and um these guys are the opposition
01:06:15.460they they are uh they carry water for the left they um they yeah they're they're traitors they're
01:06:22.540turncoats um and so they're equivalent of like tax collectors at the time of jesus you know0.95
01:06:27.880maybe they're jewish by birth but they work for rome and uh they're selling out their own people0.84
01:06:32.500and so that's that became really apparent and so for the longest time big eva they had the
01:06:38.140biggest conferences. They had this, they had that, and they had their hands on the lever of control.
01:06:42.280But what I've noticed, to be frank, is that over the last four or five years, as Big Eva has been
01:06:48.540progressively dethroned, nature abhors a vacuum. And so that space has been filled, is naturally
01:06:57.660being filled. And those who are filling the space, much like Animal Farm, are kind of starting.
01:07:07.780I mean, I'm not saying that they're traitors or that they're, because Russell Moore, I don't think0.99
01:07:11.980is a Christian. I don't think he's regenerate. So I'm not saying this about some of the mid-Eva guys
01:07:16.600who have kind of replaced Big Eva or are currently replacing Big Eva. I'm not saying that they're
01:07:23.480unregenerate like David French or Russell Moore. And I think in many ways, there's still very good
01:07:29.700Christian men who I love and respect, but I have noticed that guys who were blacklisted,
01:07:38.800you know, and they were, you know, the gatekeepers were keeping them out, are now doing some of the
01:07:44.540same. And so that's one of the kind of intramural battles that I don't want to be in, and I wish
01:07:50.720was not going on, but, you know, on our side and even within our tribe. But right now, it does seem
01:07:57.580Like there's, you know, um, kind of, uh, uh, a battle between, you know, well, um, I don't like
01:08:06.660white boy summer. And I think that, uh, anybody who, you know, who makes a joke about white boy0.51
01:08:12.300summer or would wear pit vipers or, uh, whatever, anybody who won't outright condemn, you know,
01:08:18.260white boy summer is, uh, off the team. You're off the team. And, um, that's, you know, that's0.54
01:08:25.200racist and i would just say that um that reminds me of big eva that smells eerily familiar so i
01:08:36.660yeah so i so all that being said i these you know in terms of who we partner with and co-belligen i
01:08:42.080think it depends you know what are we up against it unfortunately it is a battle on multiple fronts
01:08:47.300it just is so if i'm fighting if i'm fighting you know certain uh legislation at a local level
01:08:54.580against abortion and Catholics will come and lobby with me, then I'm going to embrace them
01:09:04.600on that issue. I'm not going to invite them to speak at my conference on justification by faith1.00
01:09:09.600alone. But yes, on that point. And so I think you've got to have, it's like you have your town,
01:09:19.860your neighborhood and your house i think everybody needs at least those three things
01:09:24.600your town your neighborhood and your house like my house um you know is is that's that's where
01:09:31.860it's like that's where it's the smallest you know and so i would say like my house is um my local
01:09:37.540church it's you it's uh the leaders of my local church and it's a handful it's about 30 guys
01:09:43.440outside of that that um that i really trust guys that i would you know i help have serve on the
01:09:49.360board of right response ministries guys that i you know would uh partner with publicly you know
01:09:54.620those kind so it would be um it would be you know the guys from ogden uh brian survey eric khan you
01:10:00.000know dan burkholder and ben garrett it would be um it would be john harris it would be ad robles
01:10:06.140it would be uh dusty deavers it would be uh stephen wolf it would be um i feel like i'm
01:10:13.380forgetting some important ones. Andrew Isker, C.J. Engel, William Wolfe, you know, like multiple
01:10:20.440guys. And we have theological disagreements between us. We're not all on the same page.
01:10:25.240But the difference is so much right now that this is what I think guys who are watching from the
01:10:30.720outside looking in, especially with Reformed Twitter right now, they don't understand.
01:10:35.300They are under the impression that it's just right now, you know, with like the post-mill,
01:10:40.800you know just you know whatever christian nationalists you know uh right reformed group
01:10:45.920they think that right now there's just a debate on theology so they think it's uh it's it's really
01:10:50.460just um it's really just a um a disagreement between you know um the dividing line is really
01:10:57.100just between aquinas and van till right you know it's just uh natural law versus theonomy um and
01:11:04.080what they don't realize is that so much of it is relational um arguably um more relational than it
01:11:10.660is theological and that's not to say theology doesn't matter but like when steven wolf for
01:11:14.840instance uh i'll say it and i'll say it very respectfully respectfully and carefully uh but
01:11:20.460when steven wolf you know posted a picture side by side of himself and dr james white who i greatly
01:11:26.500respect and love uh but when he posted that picture the two of them side by side with a
01:11:31.300caption that said which way western man um a lot of guys were bothered by that joe boot who i also
01:11:37.240respect and love you know he retweeted and said you know who do you think you are you know um
01:11:42.220like you know you young whippersnapper when you've had decades of tried and true you know
01:11:47.980faithfulness then you can um right uh assume that you know to be uh dr white's peer and i totally i
01:11:55.220love joe boot um we've had him at our conferences i love joe boot and i will continue to partner
01:11:59.400with joe boot as long as he'll have me i'll continue to partner with james white as long
01:12:02.400as he'll have me love these men um honor these men grateful for these men learned so much from
01:12:07.360these men however um i think what dr boot is missing and and other guys who came out and and
01:12:14.020decried publicly decried and really were bothered by stephen and and posting that what they're
01:12:18.500missing is um the context stephen did not post that um in in the context of um of a battle of
01:12:26.540wits or intelligence or um steven didn't post that saying which way western man are you going
01:12:32.860to go with me and aquinas right uh tomism or with dr white and you know and van till and theonomy
01:12:41.020right no uh steven wolf posted this right after this was the context he posted it right after
01:12:46.860dr white in a dividing line episode spent a few minutes very passionate um saying that um
01:12:55.740a young man who shared a meme about the holocaust that that young man should be under church
01:13:03.540discipline and uh and wherever that young man goes to church that his elders if they don't
01:13:11.440are unwilling to put him under church discipline uh then uh then they're really not qualified to
01:13:18.360be elders you should leave right that church so when stephen wolf said which way uh western man
01:13:23.920He wasn't saying which set of doctrine, Aquinas or Van Til.
01:13:30.920What he was saying is to young men, he was saying, which way?
01:13:35.660Remember, this is Stephen Wolfe who stood up for Thomas Accord.
01:18:23.340So are you sharing this to put gasoline on the fire online with a bunch of guys who really have been radicalized too far and are lacking wisdom and maturity?
01:23:18.600in terms of the theology, objectively, I am a general equity theonomist. I have not changed
01:23:24.520my position. But you're struggling. You're like, why? Here's the deal. If you want to know,
01:23:30.920how is Stephen Wolfe winning people over? Why is Joel warming up to him? The Ogden guys,
01:23:36.600the Ogden guys talked about, they were always calling themselves theonomists just two,
01:23:40.760three years ago. What happened? And now they had Stephen Wolfe at their conference and they're
01:23:44.280friends with Stephen? Why are guys becoming friends with Stephen Wolfe? This is what you
01:23:48.720need to know. For a lot of young men, it is not merely that they think, oh, I think Stephen Wolfe
01:23:55.540better encapsulates the Reformed Fathers and Calvin and Luther and the Protestant magisterial
01:24:01.760position. That's part of it. Some guys are being convinced on the basis of doctrine. They think,
01:24:07.100actually, I think Calvin's position is better than Van Til's. That's true. That's true. But that is
01:24:13.800not the only reason and i would suggest that it's not even the primary i would agree the reason why
01:24:19.900people are flocking to steven wolf is they watched him in the trenches defend thomas accord and they
01:24:26.600know in their heart of hearts that thomas accord is them yep they're like that's me and then they
01:24:32.660watched james white recently in this dividing line episode and they thought i love james white
01:24:38.200i've listened to him for 20 years religiously on the dividing line i'll always respect him
01:24:42.200he's uh he's worthy of our honor he's worthy of my respect uh but if i get in trouble uh
01:24:49.880james white will excommunicate me and stephen will raise money for my family
01:24:55.120that's why stephen's winning let me let me give an analogy here um when i was um oh this is
01:25:05.120probably 10 or 15 years ago i received some really fantastic advice it was about parenting
01:25:11.340But the advice was when you're teaching a kid to play basketball and he's just gotten to the point where he's strong enough that you can put the hoop up to full height and he can crouch down, he can get that ball and he can lob it up there at the basketball hoop.
01:25:28.800When you're teaching a kid to play basketball, every so often he's going to end up throwing it over the backboard, right?
01:25:36.800And if you're inside a gymnasium, maybe as he's getting his range down, he throws it over the backboard and hits the scoreboard and it breaks.
01:25:45.920And I think what you're saying there, Joel, is the war that we are involved in and the reason why people will side with someone like Stephen Wolfe or James White is Stephen Wolfe and hopefully we also are saying, you want to play basketball?
01:26:01.740we'll come and when you throw it over the backboard
01:26:05.160we'll teach you how to avoid doing that