The NXR Podcast - THE LIVESTREAM - Why Pastors & Fathers MUST Address Women & Modesty

00:00:00.000 The topic of modesty, especially in women's dress, is highly contentious. Suggestions from men in

00:00:10.200 particular that certain attire may conflict with scriptural mandates often provokes accusations

00:00:15.880 of legalism and misogyny. Then others who understand scripture's clear instructions on

00:00:22.380 modesty but hesitate to apply them will attempt to equivocate and apply these guidelines universally

00:00:29.400 by treating the temptation of immodesty as equally prevalent among both men and women.

00:00:37.620 But overlooking the significance of modesty or attempting to dilute its application 0.61

00:00:43.240 to a generic and androgynous command is not appropriate for the Christian.

00:00:48.640 It is crucial for Christian leaders and particularly husbands, fathers, and pastors

00:00:54.400 to articulate God's intentions for men, women, and human sexuality with clarity and precision.

00:01:02.160 The issue is greater than simply private sins or indiscretion at the level of the heart.

00:01:09.400 As commitment to God's standards wanes, history shows that societies perish under the weight of

00:01:16.560 their own indulgence, lack of self-control, and permissiveness. Tune in now as we discuss

00:01:23.760 modesty and why it matters all right well welcome back great to have you guys here uh great to be

00:01:39.620 discussing this topic today we're going to discuss an issue that's really safe i mean there is just

00:01:44.060 not going to be a lot of pushback not going to be a lot of uh a lot of poems we really phoned it in

00:01:49.800 we're talking about modesty from the front i'm going to say this because clips of this probably

00:01:54.200 will be posted online women should dress modestly that is true and men should be self-controlled

00:02:00.340 both of these principles modesty and modesty what men and women women dress modestly and men

00:02:05.820 dress modestly like women should not be wearing tube tops and three inch skirts and men it's 0.96

00:02:12.040 completely immoral equivalent shouldn't wear tank tops right or three inch right sounds like men 0.84

00:02:17.300 and women are both the same, have the same struggles, 50-50. No, not at all the case.

00:02:22.840 Men, by nature of the way God has designed them, are more visual creatures. They're more

00:02:27.380 visually stimulated, and so a man would have a greater temptation. Peter talks about sins that

00:02:32.700 are common to man. Men have a greater temptation to lust, but women have a greater temptation to 0.99

00:02:37.440 dress in such a way that brings that attention. So the application of God's Word, the application

00:02:43.120 of biblical principles is not equivalent across the board. Now, of course, it's certainly true 1.00

00:02:47.880 that men should dress modestly, that women also should not give in to lust. But by and large,

00:02:52.560 the big issue is women should take care to dress in a modest way, and men should be self-controlled. 0.82

00:02:58.860 Jesus speaks in the Sermon on the Mount. He says, if you even look with a woman with lust in your 0.78

00:03:03.300 heart, you have committed adultery. So for all the people online that would say, well, you never

00:03:06.760 address the sins of men. You never talk about this. We do. That is completely true. But here's

00:03:11.500 the deal. There's only one of these issues that's kind of under fire. If you go into the public

00:03:17.420 square, I don't think you would see a lot of men drooling, clearly indulging in the sin of lust.

00:03:22.980 Now, most certainly in private, that does happen. If you go to HEB, you go to the store, you go to

00:03:27.780 wherever you are, what you will see, as the temperature obviously increases, you will see

00:03:32.260 the public undressing of America, as Jeff Pollard calls it. And so the wise man, the godly pastor,

00:03:37.260 the godly husband, the godly father, they're taking God's word, but they're not just applying

00:03:41.620 it to the battles of the past. I think maybe 18th century Britain, maybe theft and drunkenness

00:03:47.360 was very common then, very commonplace. And so the pastors and God's men then, they would speak

00:03:52.220 to those sins. Men, you cannot be drunk all day long. Do not steal, but work hard for an honest

00:03:57.520 living as difficult as it may be. That's correctly applying God's word to the actual situation going

00:04:03.380 on right but what we have today is the public undressing america of america as i've mentioned

00:04:08.680 and so the impetus for the pastor for the husband is to the father is to apply god's word not again

00:04:14.120 as i said to 200 years ago to fight the battles of yesteryear but to apply it to the current

00:04:19.700 situation right what's that famous quote by um spurgeon where he says you know wherever the

00:04:25.040 battle rages the hottest you know like he said there you know there uh the quality you know the

00:04:30.940 fidelity, the faithfulness of the soldier is tested. If I'm faithful across the board on all

00:04:36.860 other fields, I'm paraphrasing it, but if I'm faithful on all other fronts, except for that

00:04:42.740 one which is currently under attack, if I falter there, so I'm vigilant all across the battlefield

00:04:50.400 on every single hill, except for the one hill that's under attack, then I'm a coward. I'm not

00:04:58.140 a faithful soldier and what guys will often do is uh they will you know here i stand right you know

00:05:04.980 so um but but they'll stand uh on on not just a hill that's already been you know secured by

00:05:12.900 by yesterday's army uh but really they're standing on uh on a carcass of a dragon that's already been

00:05:20.820 slain you know so like for instance like you know um i hate racism here i stand like wow that's an

00:05:29.340 unpopular unpopular opinion stunning stunning and brave you know what i mean stunning and brave um

00:05:34.900 and that's not to say that racism uh is is moral uh i'm not saying that that there isn't actually

00:05:41.000 sinful racism uh but what i'm saying is that uh by and large in the west uh you don't that that's not

00:05:49.580 that's not the headline of the story um the headline of the story right now is not uh that

00:05:56.520 a bunch of white people are racist against minorities that's the headline of cnn that's a

00:06:01.580 headline of democrats that's a headline of uh deceitful media but that is not really the headline 0.98

00:06:07.140 of of the what god is doing providentially with his church and that's and that's not a coincidence

00:06:12.540 that's because faithful men fought against that they fought that dragon they they were able by

00:06:16.840 god's grace to slay that dragon um it's dead but the question is um what what is you know the

00:06:23.960 the 200 ton dragon that's that's walking around with immutability um you know today what's that

00:06:32.820 well matthew 5 jesus even talks about it blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness

00:06:37.720 sake for theirs is the kingdom of heaven history also vindicates those who are right too so in this

00:06:42.900 exact moment oh my goodness look at this three misogynists sitting down at the table to talk

00:06:46.940 about women's modesty but by god's grace if uh if christendom is re-established 10 20 50 years

00:06:53.180 they're going to look back and say thank god for those who spoke out and said hey uh this level of 0.85

00:06:57.880 undress in the public square this level of undecency uh that was bad and we realize that now

00:07:02.840 and and history so in this moment maybe we are persecuted for righteousness sake but time will

00:07:08.420 show time will show who's right think of those who fought against wokeness uh in the moment

00:07:13.100 they were hated you experienced that yeah now all of a sudden 2024 it's pretty in vogue right to

00:07:18.760 push back against wokeness oh what about uh you know racism towards white people that happens

00:07:23.400 it's fine to say that now six years ago yeah in 2017 you could not have said that no way it's

00:07:30.600 crazy to see how again how the overton window has shifted really really really quickly and that's

00:07:37.220 not to say that there will never be any you know overreactions and excesses on the other side

00:07:41.720 because there are but by and large again like sticking with okay but what is the major what's

00:07:47.300 the headline what's the footnote i think that's one of the big problems when it comes to you know

00:07:52.080 pastoral application christians trying to take the word of god and actually apply it in practical

00:07:57.120 ways the temptation is always to take something that's anecdotal like something that's um that's

00:08:03.520 you know that does happen that is real but but by and large if we were honest is the minority report

00:08:09.240 and then take the the headline and and uh just ignore it so right now like um i would say

00:08:17.120 headline story is not uh racism against minorities uh like what do we think is more prevalent in 2024

00:08:24.360 in the west uh racism or feminism right um well we know feminism is more prevalent so what you can

00:08:32.700 expect is um the gospel coalition to write a lot about racism you know because that's the one

00:08:40.660 that's already settled that the general public opinion is that that's bad it's safe that dragon 0.54

00:08:46.180 has already been slain and so uh the larpers will come out with their plastic swords and slash you

00:08:51.400 know the the already dead body of that dragon there is pretend to be a knight that david

00:08:56.540 killed goliath with a stone and then cut his head off right and so wes you and i were talking about

00:09:02.680 wokeness and how culturally wokeness seems to be have hit its point and we're on the roller coaster 0.98

00:09:09.260 going down the other side but i it still is worth cutting the head off of that dragon yes right but 0.98

00:09:16.400 the dragon of racism in western society i mean it's it's been beheaded and ground into powder 0.98

00:09:23.480 and now we're selling it for ailments and cures and right and someone's organizing a crusade

00:09:29.800 against racism we got to go out and we got to fight it wait a minute but let me read this quote

00:09:33.840 this is uh it has a puritan in it i know you have some quotes as well michael so this is jeff pollard

00:09:38.300 again the public undressing of america 2004 he says modesty is a controversial issue no matter

00:09:43.880 how the man of god approaches this subject he will be judged a legalist or a libertarian by his

00:09:49.000 audience it is inescapable speaking against the current fashions and popular trends is always

00:09:54.000 difficult and costly for the man of god still god has called him to a course that divinely steers 0.94

00:09:58.960 him towards a head-on collision with the thinking and the ways of the world this is a puritan

00:10:03.340 vincent alsop once said that a man must have a very hearty spirit that shall dare to cross the

00:10:08.440 stream or stem the current of prevailing luxury so that to have a finger in this ungrateful debate

00:10:14.420 must engage him in ishmael's fate to have every man's hand lifted against him seeing it is

00:10:19.160 unavoidable that his hand must be set against almost every man this certainly applies to modesty

00:10:23.600 you're going to say it you're going to have everyone against you yep you have some quotes

00:10:27.220 too as well? Well, and so the idea that as Christians and as fathers and as pastors,

00:10:36.280 there's no place to speak about the sins of the time, first of all, is just garbage. That is 0.99

00:10:43.520 precisely what pastors and fathers have always done. But secondly, even this issue of modesty

00:10:50.080 is one that church fathers have spoken about. And so not only were there different battles that

00:10:55.520 they fought bravely when no one else would. But some of these battles are perennial, right? Some

00:10:59.880 of them just because they relate to our nature as men and women. The same which is common to man.

00:11:05.420 Yep, the same which is common to man. And so previous generations and pastors and writers

00:11:10.840 talked about modesty. So here's from John Owen. And again, I got this from the same

00:11:14.520 book that you mentioned there. And I'll read part of it, and then I'll have to scroll down

00:11:19.780 to the end of it john owen said this here on two of late have been added vanity in apparel with

00:11:26.260 foolish light lascivious modes and dressings therein and in a modest boldness and behavior

00:11:32.800 among men and women and so what he's going to do is he's going to he's going to criticize 0.96

00:11:37.740 the french influence on uh what men and women in england were wearing and he hated he thought it

00:11:45.320 was complete abomination so at the end of this he says after he he talks about one of the great

00:11:50.920 sins of london he has seven great sins of london the first one is adopting the frivolity of dress

00:11:57.400 from the french this is owen this is john owen yep and then he he ends this way he says um syrian

00:12:06.160 and augustine drew up this conclusion so he's going all the way back to augustine superfluous

00:12:12.660 apparel is worse than whoredom because whoredom only corrupts chastity but this in other words

00:12:19.120 a fascination with superfluous fashion this corrupts nature oh sirs what was more common 0.90

00:12:27.680 among many professors in london than to be clothed in strange apparel a la mode de france and so he

00:12:33.500 goes even beyond just modesty and he says christians have no business pursuing the fashions

00:12:38.900 of the day because it divorces them from dressing intentionally to honor god and to be appropriate

00:12:46.340 in society and allows just modern trends always to dictate what they're wearing with no thought

00:12:52.060 no care no wisdom it's funny too because he dressed pretty well so we're not espousing some 0.98

00:12:58.320 type of you know burkas and not being a popper was one of the rare guys that actually was well

00:13:03.980 off like he had a pretty hefty stipend wasn't he like really big on hats i was gonna say

00:13:08.780 The hats and then like the frilly collars.

00:13:10.460 So he's not at all espousing this bland androgynous.

00:13:12.960 I think he had like dozens of different hats is what I would say.

00:13:15.480 His point was London, fashion in England had been.

00:13:20.180 I bet he didn't wear those hats in church though.

00:13:21.640 No.

00:13:22.100 They did not.

00:13:22.700 Go ahead.

00:13:23.720 Fashion in England had been distilled through the gospel and fashion in France was rejecting that.

00:13:29.560 And so when people in London were adopting the dress of the French,

00:13:33.980 They were throwing off the careful, intentional mode of dressing, which had been kind of distilled over a long time so that what you wear was both flattering and truly beautiful, truly masculine, but also modest, appropriate, becoming, and decent. 0.94

00:13:51.200 Right.

00:13:51.420 That's good.

00:13:52.600 And biblical discernment, too.

00:13:54.580 The Bible over and over again, it gives principles rather than exact, the exact requirement.

00:13:59.900 Right.

00:14:00.040 So I think of parenting. 0.59

00:14:01.520 It doesn't say how many times to spank your child.

00:14:03.660 that does not say what scenario to buy more or less

00:14:06.280 or what time to put them to bed.

00:14:07.820 The Bible gives principles.

00:14:09.100 Father, train up your children in the nurture

00:14:11.100 and the admonition of the Lord.

00:14:12.420 Do not spare the rod, and doing so, you will spoil the child.

00:14:15.320 Foolishness is bound up in the heart of the child,

00:14:17.000 but the rod of reproof will drive it far from him.

00:14:18.940 None of those tell us exactly how to do it.

00:14:21.620 Biblical discernment, then, it's not just repeating

00:14:24.360 or acting out some type of mechanical instruction.

00:14:27.460 Biblical discernment is taking the principle

00:14:29.060 and then applying it to how I actually should live. 1.00

00:14:31.700 right a lot of women will give lip service to submission i submit as soon as i agree with my 0.97

00:14:37.000 husband no the biblical commands are actually i would do this thing i would dress in this way i

00:14:42.220 would do this i would be tend to not discipline my child but the bible tells me to and so i'm

00:14:47.900 going to do it and i'm going to do it in this way and i'm going to take this command i'm not going

00:14:51.000 to neuter it so i don't give this lip service oh my goodness spanking thank the lord for his

00:14:55.180 discipline oh when's the last time you spanked your child about six months ago uh and and that's 0.93

00:15:00.460 where you'll get in trouble too no it requires you to do this yoga pants i'll give a great example 0.97

00:15:05.260 yoga pants in public those are off the table for a christian woman god's word does not allow for

00:15:10.580 that level of dress painting wearing no pants at all but simply painting your skin is not appropriate 0.97

00:15:16.300 dress for a christian woman uh i take it all back when you put it that way yeah it's west what is

00:15:22.200 modesty modesty i have a definition written down here that's a good good segue modesty can be

00:15:27.740 defined as behavior, manner, or appearance intended to avoid impropriety or indecency.

00:15:34.120 So it's acting, dressing, behaving in such a way that you say, I'm deliberately not trying to give

00:15:40.660 the inclination, the thought, the intention of this, of indecency. I'm not trying to advertise.

00:15:47.120 God designed human sexuality for marriage. It's described in Song of Solomon as a walled

00:15:52.080 garden. The garden, when you take down the wall so everyone can kind of see the plants and the

00:15:57.180 fruit and everything coming out from it that's no longer a walled garden that's just something

00:16:01.000 that's available to anyone who wants to come through and plunder and take right some that's

00:16:05.660 good um i'm thinking also about like uh first timothy i believe it's chapter two yep that

00:16:12.500 talks about women's apparel and it seems as though like there's uh two prohibitions that paul

00:16:17.960 mentions there one is uh lewd you could you know for alliteration sake you could say um the

00:16:24.640 prohibition against being lewd but also against being lavish um you know and it's like the braided

00:16:30.760 hair thing you know people people will try to you know because they hate the word of god you know

00:16:34.880 they'll say like oh so you can't even have braids in your hair and so you're breaking that rule 0.96

00:16:38.680 because i saw a hair tie or a scrunchie you know and so therefore i can dress like a hoe 0.93

00:16:43.080 you know like that's that's that follows that's the exegesis that you get this is from christian 0.87

00:16:48.000 women by the way you know very very common today yeah well christian name um but no you're just

00:16:54.340 you're being cute with the word of god and you're you're it's not even cute you're just out outright

00:16:58.320 mocking the word of god no paul paul has something specific in mind there it's it's not just that um

00:17:03.540 that a woman had a scrunchie you know or a hair type uh that there were those women who were well

00:17:09.060 off in that society were often braiding jewels and gold and different apparel into their hair

00:17:14.540 um so it would be like i don't know even if we have an equivalent but maybe like some like high

00:17:20.480 you know queen of rivendell type you know you know middle earth tolkien kind of like with like

00:17:26.980 there's literally silver and gold braided out through through the hair uh that it's um it's

00:17:32.480 not just attractive or pretty but it's a sign of wealth it's um status it's yeah it would be like

00:17:38.060 it would be like a woman walking into the church uh with you know braided into her hair a sign

00:17:43.640 uh that that uh showed uh her family's household income you know like uh and how many i'm having

00:17:50.620 trouble imagining that yeah it's hard to imagine but i'm the but the point is it was it was boasting

00:17:55.760 it wasn't just so there was the the lavish sign um but then the lewd sign side of things would

00:18:01.740 of course be but but both really do fall into the category of immodesty so immodesty is not just

00:18:07.860 showing skin that belongs to your husband, that needs to be that walled garden. But modesty also

00:18:16.620 has to do not just with sexuality, but also with humility when it comes to things like wealth and

00:18:23.640 being rich and not rubbing that into people's faces. And part of it is to protect men, but part

00:18:29.220 of it also is to protect your fellow sisters in Christ from envy. And so I remember when I preached

00:18:34.520 on this. When I preached to the first Timothy, we lost 40 adults, which was a third of the church

00:18:39.500 by the time. Yeah. And when I was in California, by the time we got through first Timothy chapter

00:18:44.100 two. Um, so people absolutely hated it. Um, and honestly, I've gone back and listen, I was way

00:18:50.160 too soft. I've decided. Um, so, but, uh, but all that being said, um, you know, the, but the point

00:18:58.420 was with the modesty being on two sides against lewdness and also against being lavish. Oh,

00:19:05.720 the lavish side was a woman shouldn't dress in a way that is sexually lewd in order to protect

00:19:11.380 her brothers in Christ in their fight for self-control and purity. She also shouldn't 1.00

00:19:16.540 dress in a way that is lavish to protect her sisters in Christ from the sin of envy and

00:19:23.860 coveting. And so keeping both your brothers in Christ in mind in one particular area where

00:19:29.680 they're weak, namely lust, the lust of the eyes, and keeping your sisters in Christ,

00:19:35.820 protecting them in an area where they may be weak, namely the temptation to envy another woman for

00:19:42.360 being prettier than me or having more funds to be able to afford that Louis, whatever. I don't

00:19:51.340 know what's popular today but louis vuitton is that still a thing you know or gucci or something

00:19:55.180 gucci yeah so so the the passage here it's interesting because first simpathy 2 8 9 it

00:20:01.040 mentions apparel or your clothing twice it says they should adorn themselves adorn themselves

00:20:05.360 with respectable apparel right this is dignified not frumpy and proper correct correct it's not

00:20:11.640 so burka is what you're saying not burka's head to toe yeah no of course not respectable apparel

00:20:16.560 But then at the end of the verse, it says, not with costly attire, not ostentatious.

00:20:22.100 We should look respectable.

00:20:24.040 We should look proper and put together and appropriate.

00:20:28.400 And then he says, with modesty and self-control.

00:20:31.180 And insofar as modesty applies to men, again, it'll be equivocation, like men and women should both dress modestly. 0.52

00:20:38.800 And that's true in a sense.

00:20:40.180 We talked about that.

00:20:40.780 Yeah, they both should, but it's not the same. 0.56

00:20:44.160 but insofar as men should dress modestly it would be modest and appropriate for the occasion

00:20:48.320 so if you're going to church on the lord's day dressing not in sweatpants right that would be

00:20:52.680 an appropriate way to dress if i came in here in shorts that would not be appropriate for

00:20:56.680 a presentation like this so men should have that in mind but it should be the more the

00:21:01.680 appropriateness to the situation i don't know a single man that struggles and like i really

00:21:05.540 struggle to dress in such a way that's not that's overly attractive or overly visually engaging i

00:21:11.520 I truly don't know anyone like that that would have that temptation.

00:21:13.840 I'm sure there might be someone, but we just have to admit that that is exceedingly rare 0.98

00:21:18.180 by comparison to women.

00:21:19.040 It is, but Paul actually gives it to us here in 1 Timothy.

00:21:22.140 People don't often connect verse 8 with verse 9 here, because in verse 8 it says,

00:21:25.940 I desire that in every place men should pray, lifting holy hands without anger or quarreling,

00:21:30.740 and that women should dress modestly and appropriately.

00:21:33.360 And what Paul is saying here is the way that men call undue and untoward attention to themselves

00:21:38.820 is usually through this hot-headed quarreling fighting.

00:21:42.460 My hands are raised to draw conflict. 1.00

00:21:45.860 And what women are tempted to draw is desire and attention.

00:21:50.620 And so Paul is dealing with the sin of men here, 0.89

00:21:53.260 but their inappropriateness is often hot-headedness, quarrelsomeness.

00:21:57.740 Their hands are raised in fists rather than in prayer. 1.00

00:22:00.680 Women desire to draw attention. 1.00

00:22:03.300 That's good. 1.00

00:22:03.980 And cross-reference, and then we'll go to a break,

00:22:05.820 with 1 Corinthians 11, where it talks about woman is the glory of man, especially in the 0.99

00:22:10.600 Lord's day, there's a unique application where women shouldn't seek to dress in such a way

00:22:14.740 that's distracting. A woman could dress in such a way that as men and women and children 0.66

00:22:18.620 gather to worship God, they're distracted by the attire. They're distracted by, because the 0.99

00:22:24.100 feminine form is beautiful. God has made the feminine form beautiful, but it could be distracting 0.99

00:22:28.140 in Paul in 1 Corinthians 11. So a whole other book, another biblical command is very clear,

00:22:32.740 at least in 1 Corinthians 11, women should be covered on the Lord's day in order to not attract 0.86

00:22:38.280 inordinate attention. Right. Good. All right, let's go to a commercial. 1.00

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00:23:25.160 all right well welcome back so somebody put in the comments this is actually in my notes for

00:23:30.560 the show as well we might have our first disagreement here on the live stream depending

00:23:33.900 on y'all's opinion on this one should men go shirtless at the beach or a swimming pool in

00:23:40.660 the presence of other women that are not their family members michael you were noting a little

00:23:44.620 bit of the history related to because men and women didn't always this this was in that same

00:23:48.640 book and he pointed out that he has a whole chapter on swimwear he said that one of the

00:23:53.500 Well, initially, bathing was segregated.

00:23:57.140 Which book was this?

00:23:57.960 This was the...

00:23:59.100 Public Undressing of America. 0.87

00:24:00.020 Christian Modesty, The Public Undressing of America by James Pollard.

00:24:02.820 James Pollard.

00:24:03.420 James.

00:24:03.980 He said that bathing did used to be a segregated activity.

00:24:08.540 Men bathed with men only and women bathed with women only.

00:24:11.180 But he seemed to say that the reason for that was they did not have separate swimming clothing.

00:24:17.520 And so any bathing that happened was in undergarments or totally nude.

00:24:20.580 And when you say bathing, you mean swimming?

00:24:22.060 Swimming.

00:24:22.440 Yeah.

00:24:22.640 Yeah. So he said that actually American designers made a really strong attempt to have modest swimwear to accommodate, you know, function, being able to move and not drown, not have your clothes drag you to the bottom, but also so that it could be done, families going to the beach and things like that.

00:24:41.640 He said initially on, in America, there was a strong effort to have modest swimwear to accommodate mixed bathing.

00:24:48.460 And the reason it was segregated historically was because clothing was cumbersome and you couldn't swim in the clothing they had, so they swam nude.

00:24:56.000 And so they had to do it separately.

00:24:57.920 And I think that would be a good goal to aim for.

00:25:00.460 Men and women, especially unmarried men and women, when they generally congregate, it should be and historically has been in the context of looking for a partner to marry and to date.

00:25:09.640 we have all these funky especially millennials funky millennial humor well they'll get together

00:25:14.080 for hanksgiving they'll have themed outfits after tom hanks well people historically the reason they

00:25:18.660 got together with other unmarried individuals of the opposite sex was to pursue marriage so now we

00:25:24.160 have this weird it's almost sterile uh these people that won't pursue marriage they won't

00:25:28.160 pursue kids and then they're like well what do i do now all these other institutions you can read

00:25:32.400 the book bowling alone and some of the decay of american society how people used to spend time

00:25:36.580 together so we've lost all of those we've lost the bowling club the rotary club the different

00:25:40.720 social things lions club uh veterans of foreign wars those aren't populated as much anymore

00:25:45.800 and now millennials especially generations feeling this i'm sure gen z as well

00:25:49.800 they have like this gap like oh we've got to spend time together but i don't actually know

00:25:54.240 why we're doing it i guess we just dress up like tom hank and have a quirky fun themed uh no men

00:26:00.160 and women when they gather together again especially young individuals that are of

00:26:03.840 maritable age with the opposite sex generally speaking it should be for worship the lord's day

00:26:09.120 or pursuing at some level uh setting the stage a context for courtship and for marriage that was 0.99

00:26:17.020 generally the societal expectation so we're not there yet right now men shirtless beach pool yeah

00:26:24.380 so what do you what do you guys think shirt on shirt off i'm quickly coming around to shirt on

00:26:31.080 that is possibly directly proportional

00:26:34.360 to my increase in age

00:26:36.020 and my larger girth.

00:26:40.000 Yeah, my theology,

00:26:41.060 I'm becoming increasingly modest

00:26:42.560 as I am also becoming less attractive.

00:26:45.600 For men, if your BMI is over 30,

00:26:48.000 it doesn't matter. 0.56

00:26:49.420 Yeah, you're good.

00:26:50.200 I'm sorry to report.

00:26:51.200 We don't care.

00:26:51.820 Leave it on, take it off.

00:26:52.660 No, it's Tim to do that. 1.00

00:26:53.760 It might be my most gay view,

00:26:55.400 but I think men should,

00:26:56.680 out of respect,

00:26:57.340 and I've known family members

00:26:58.620 and other women who have said,

00:26:59.580 And yeah, this can trigger thoughts.

00:27:01.560 And I think out of respect and love for those sisters in Christ,

00:27:04.080 I would recommend, again, especially if you're being in my eyes under 30,

00:27:08.200 wear some type of sleeveless shirt at the beach.

00:27:10.760 In this book, and Eric Kahn, I think, references the book,

00:27:13.680 he points out that when Adam and Eve fell,

00:27:17.400 they made for them, the word in Genesis is aprons or skirts.

00:27:23.060 They attempted, out of shame, to cover their midsection.

00:27:26.800 and god came and he covered them from the neck to the knees and so his conclusion was that in

00:27:35.200 god's opinion midsection covering was not enough even for adam and so god clothed them from here

00:27:41.920 to the knees and he goes through a lot of old testament words and points out that that's what

00:27:46.880 a tunic was he shows that men who were working in the field they were allowed to work in sleeveless

00:27:51.540 tunics right but it was never no shirt up top no yeah i think that's completely fair for a guy to

00:27:57.680 wear a shirt or you know or a tank top or some kind of yeah i think that's fair and i didn't

00:28:04.520 always believe this i mean i didn't summer i wouldn't have oh yeah yeah yeah and just for

00:28:08.840 the record my goodness like and if if we're on the topic of things that we didn't always believe

00:28:12.840 i i mean the listener has to understand when we say these things and when we say them with uh

00:28:19.940 with, you know, we say them matter-of-factly, we say them as though it was definitive. None of this

00:28:25.380 is meant to, this is not pride. Now, I mean, we're humans, we're sinners, so maybe some of it is

00:28:31.060 pride, but wherever it is pride, that's on us, that's where we're failing. But here's it, I like

00:28:35.780 how, you know, Doug Wilson has always said, when the man of God stands behind the pulpit to preach,

00:28:41.460 he's not coming to share, he's coming to preach. He's not, he shouldn't stand behind a plexiglass,

00:28:48.940 you know pulpit that's uh just as transparent as his soul you know he's uh bearing all and being

00:28:54.280 vulnerable and he shouldn't be pacing back and forth you know between two ferns you know or

00:28:58.380 sitting on a stool with you know with his uh coffee cup you know and and um and and just

00:29:03.640 sharing with the ladies in the car like no you're getting behind a big thick wooden pulpit and saying

00:29:09.940 um i have a text this thus saith the the lord this is the word of god he should preach as though

00:29:17.220 what he's saying would be true whether he had ever been born or not. So when we take hard truths

00:29:24.040 and we even convey and communicate them in very matter-of-fact ways, the basis of our confidence

00:29:31.680 is not our own moral resumes. I don't get behind whether it's a camera with a podcast or the pulpit

00:29:41.060 with the local church and say hard things with confidence in my own flesh. I say hard things,

00:29:49.140 and I say them deliberately because God wrote a book, and it's true whether I've had that view

00:29:56.600 from the womb or not. And spoiler alert, nobody comes out of the womb with a perfect theology.

00:30:02.400 You're progressively being sanctified and having to learn. But then once you do come into conviction,

00:30:10.240 then then what do you what do you do like are you just at that point it's not humility at that

00:30:16.480 point it's deception to say anything other than what you know to be true or to try even just in

00:30:22.820 your presentation or your tone to lessen uh this truth this glorious truth god's truth so that's

00:30:29.220 yeah so so whether it's um the conviction of a man wearing a t-shirt uh at the public swimming

00:30:35.180 pool which we've all held for the last you know 15 minutes or whether it's you know some other

00:30:40.360 truth um if it's true and if it squares with the word of god and it's a rightful prudent application

00:30:46.720 of god's word in our society today then let us say it as though it truly is true and let us say it

00:30:52.540 with confidence not in our flesh but confidence in god so yeah if you're a dude um and you're

00:30:58.980 saying i'm struggling with lust because women aren't modest and then you're going into a swimming

00:31:04.060 pool and uh wearing nothing from from your waist up uh that's that is a double standard yep so i'm

00:31:11.720 gonna hit two comments they're good questions one was okay so head coverings uh why not the other

00:31:16.600 six days of the week i don't personally hold to the other six days of the week because the lord's

00:31:20.620 day is something unique so paul actually says in first corinthians 11 uh this is because of the

00:31:25.040 angels angels are in attendance when we gather on the lord's day hebrews chapter 12 says you have

00:31:29.520 not come that which may be touched to the fountain to the smoke but you have come to the heavenly

00:31:33.800 assembly on the lord's day by faith we ascend to the heavens we are seated with him the angels the

00:31:40.260 firstborn and the blood of jesus are there and there's a very unique context where a woman

00:31:44.800 dressing in such a way specifically with her hair and a covering would be distracting that it is

00:31:49.520 especially inappropriate calvin would say that uh the angels would be witness to the the horrific

00:31:54.400 spectacle of a woman dressing in such a way that would distract from what's going on the other

00:31:59.900 question was thoughts on women wearing pants real quick so all seven days of the week we we believe

00:32:05.160 in modesty what west is addressing submission yeah yeah and yeah female submission to to her

00:32:10.700 husband um or father and then also modesty and her dress and her attire seven days a week 1.00

00:32:16.620 um she gets to you know she gets to dress like a hoe zero times a week that's right so there's 0.97

00:32:21.540 no context where that gets to happen right but um on the lord's day uh west is saying um that 0.97

00:32:27.980 in terms of head covering because someone asked right um and now there are people who would

00:32:32.440 disagree um yeah like for instance i wrote the forward to dale partridge's book on head

00:32:37.760 coverings which was really good yeah i thought he did a great job and it's in simple form um

00:32:42.900 but but very thoughtful but uh dale and i did end up uh disagreeing not so much that i didn't feel

00:32:48.900 comfortable forwarding the book and and supporting his work but he believes that the head covering

00:32:53.460 that practice belongs to function so he would say whenever a woman prays or prophesies so if

00:33:00.540 you're having family worship exactly or if she uh prays you know uh just before her meal let's say

00:33:05.460 husband's out of the home at work nine to five it's lunch with the kids she needs to put on a

00:33:09.440 covering real quick for that 30 second prayer before the meal whereas i i believe that it's

00:33:14.320 not so much the function but rather it has to do with uh the context the place and and so i if it's

00:33:20.060 the lord's day the christian sabbath and its church the gathered saints so if it's the saints

00:33:25.440 gathered together on the christian sabbath the lord's day for the purpose of uh the means of

00:33:31.180 grace public preaching the word public praying the word public singing the word in hymn psalms

00:33:35.340 and spiritual songs and public seeing s-e-e-i-n-g seeing the word in the only two images prescribed

00:33:41.480 to us the sacrament of baptism and the lord's supper in that context aka church on sunday um

00:33:48.120 that the woman should wear a head covering for all the reasons that you stated, Wes,

00:33:52.180 one being for the sake of angels, because angels who are always present, we could entertain

00:33:57.360 angels without being aware. Hebrew says, by exercising hospitality, we may be entertaining

00:34:02.700 angels unaware. And that could happen on a Tuesday afternoon. But the angels, I believe,

00:34:07.440 are uniquely present, and their focus is uniquely, their gaze is uniquely focused on us

00:34:13.700 in our Lord's Day worship.

00:34:15.760 And so part of it is the angels.

00:34:17.100 And then the other part is it has to do with glories.

00:34:20.900 Both men and women equally are image bearers of the living God.

00:34:27.600 So God didn't make man in his image

00:34:29.880 and then make woman in the image of man.

00:34:32.560 God made man, that is to say mankind in his image,

00:34:37.220 both male and female, he created them.

00:34:39.620 So mankind bears God's image

00:34:42.540 in both of its expressions, male and female, both image bearers. But they are not both

00:34:48.700 displaying, representing glory. So glory and image are bifurcated here. Both man and woman

00:34:56.680 bear the image of God, but man is said to be uniquely the glory of God and woman the glory

00:35:03.600 of man. And so one of the arguments for the woman covering her head, not all the time,

00:35:08.400 but on the Lord's day is that the sole exclusive glory that is to be on display in the church on

00:35:15.560 the Lord's day is the glory of the Lord. By man, male, having his head uncovered, if man, male,

00:35:24.180 is the glory of God, then the uncovered man is radiating God's glory. But if woman is the glory 0.95

00:35:31.580 of man and her hair is the glory of woman by covering the hair you cover the glory of woman 0.90

00:35:38.460 and by covering the hair and the head you cover the woman which is the glory of man so that the

00:35:43.960 only glory that remains visible is the glory of god on so it's the glory of the lord is the only

00:35:50.120 visible glory on the lord's day seems to make perfect sense people hate it because you're all

00:35:56.940 feminist okay because it's true uh someone just briefly mentioned pants i don't think any of us

00:36:01.380 would say pants are off limits because the bible does not explicitly say that pants for women

00:36:05.320 pants for women exactly especially pants for men yeah especially we're going back to long robes

00:36:11.600 uh no kilts pants for women uh the bible doesn't explicitly say it does say a woman should not

00:36:16.680 wear that which pertains to a man this is god's law in leviticus uh there are pants cargo pants

00:36:21.480 that look like military fatigues yeah less appropriate uh leggings that are immodest and

00:36:26.060 indecent also no i think there is a middle ground though to dress in such a way including pants

00:36:31.060 that is feminine that is modest doesn't cause your brothers to stumble right agreed yes i agree six

00:36:36.900 days a week um that said i i would uh i i am not uh holding a rule you guys can both attest

00:36:44.220 i've i've been persuaded of the head covering hold on sorry i want to say this go ahead this

00:36:48.500 is true joel joel says strong things and has strong opinions but on these tertiary issues

00:36:54.540 there is great freedom in Christ in our church.

00:36:58.080 Yeah, I would say at least two-thirds,

00:37:00.520 if not three-quarters of the women 1.00

00:37:01.680 don't wear a head covering. 0.98

00:37:02.840 I never have given anybody a hard time. 1.00

00:37:06.640 And if a woman showed up in pants, 1.00

00:37:09.560 you know, yoga pants,

00:37:12.560 even then I would not shame her in front of everyone, 1.00

00:37:16.880 but I would probably ask my wife 0.99

00:37:18.720 if she could just drop a ping, 0.99

00:37:22.240 a message or something like that,

00:37:23.420 or get coffee with her after church.

00:37:26.840 And that's if the woman is a member or frequent attendee.

00:37:28.800 If a woman just came in, none of us knew her and left,

00:37:30.840 she probably wouldn't be confronted. 0.94

00:37:32.220 She probably wouldn't be confronted

00:37:33.260 if she became a regular attender.

00:37:35.900 And it was so yoga pants and a skin-tight tube toppers.

00:37:41.320 Eventually, not her first time,

00:37:43.620 but eventually we'd probably, again, 1.00

00:37:45.540 I would ask one of the women to talk to her

00:37:47.440 outside of the Lord's Day service. 1.00

00:37:50.260 But my point is, if a woman's just wearing pants, 1.00

00:37:53.420 so not yoga pants but just pants i half of the women maybe over half probably about half half 0.94

00:37:59.940 of the women i would say uh two-thirds of the women at our church do not cover head cover and

00:38:04.960 probably about half of them wear pants um and so not every sunday but just yeah but right and so

00:38:11.760 i just want to clarify my my position is a woman wearing pants six days a week totally fine with

00:38:17.500 a woman wearing pants on the lord's day to church um i'm not ever going to correct that again the

00:38:24.180 yoga pants i probably you know i would get someone to correct that uh but the just regular you know

00:38:28.900 pants never going to correct that but if you're if i was ever asked if someone's asking me and so

00:38:34.100 i'm saying you know right now which someone is somebody is yeah uh i think on the lord's day um

00:38:39.860 it's it's uh not just covering the skin to um for the modesty for the sake of avoiding uh sexual

00:38:46.420 temptation for men and not skin tight either that's another category right so not just covering

00:38:51.100 the skin um but it's also uh dressing in such a way that is distinctly uh not just covered but

00:38:57.920 feminine and and beautiful um uh modesty does not mean frumpy um and and so i think on the lord's

00:39:05.820 day part of what you see in first corinthians 11 and and first simothy 2 is uh yes you need to be

00:39:10.860 modest in terms of not lavish we've already talked about that gold braided in the hair

00:39:14.680 um or lewd you know uh v cut on a woman that's showing you know cleavage um but but also she

00:39:24.400 could be very modest it's it's not lavish or lewd but it's also um it's gender neutral wearing a

00:39:31.400 power suit yeah she could wear you could wear a three-piece a woman wearing a three-piece suit

00:39:35.660 on the lord's day i think is is in a and shoulder pads exactly i think is inappropriate because

00:39:42.140 although yes it's modest in the sense of sexuality and modest in the sense of it's not lavish it's

00:39:48.320 not gold plated um it's it's not feminine right um you are coming in um dressing like a man

00:39:55.880 dressing like a you know a girl boss you know with pads in the corner to appear more broad 0.68

00:40:03.400 right exactly androgynous no you should look feminine and so the reason why i say dresses

00:40:08.180 on the Lord's day, and again, our church does not hold this as a rule, but if I'm asked, the reason

00:40:13.720 why I would give that as an answer is because there's a lot of bases, not just one base that

00:40:17.740 we're trying to cover. Avoiding tempting your brothers to sexually lust, avoiding tempting

00:40:23.660 your sisters to envy with lavish and gold braided into the hair, but then also pleasing the Lord by

00:40:30.680 looking like a woman. He made you a woman. And likewise, the men, a man could dress in a way,

00:40:36.080 like so flip it right so there's far less offense if we talk about men that's true right so let me 0.94

00:40:41.000 let me just show you that you're a feminist real quick by by showing you this little social 1.00

00:40:44.360 experiment because you'll be far less offended by what i'm about to say than what i just said 1.00

00:40:47.960 if a man came to church wearing a dress he's covering every inch of his body right and and

00:40:54.280 he's and it's not a gold-plated dress right so he's not lewd nor lavish the trad wife dress but

00:40:59.300 but he's avoided the lewd argument he's avoided the lavish argument but he has gone headlong 0.99

00:41:04.660 into being gay it's gay it's effeminate it is uh absolutely inappropriate absolutely inappropriate 0.98

00:41:12.680 and we would have to have a conversation with that guy and say you cannot wear a dress yeah 1.00

00:41:16.660 you cannot that dress would be addressed you cannot wear a dress to church as a man uh but 0.94

00:41:22.600 women will dress in completely what would be male attire viewed as male attire in any period of 0.61

00:41:28.640 history until 15 minutes ago right and so anyways uh double standards all over the place but um

00:41:33.980 somebody also was asking i know that you have more here west that we need to address but

00:41:38.920 they're asking about the video did you guys see the video of the sorority girls um oh allie beth

00:41:44.680 yes comments yeah yeah yeah but i don't even care about that yeah did we did we address that last

00:41:49.820 week we addressed allie beth's take on sourdough and stuff like that yeah but if anybody wants

00:41:55.480 just the short version of the the sorority girl video where they're they're dancing um and you 1.00

00:42:01.140 know some some two raps along at a gas station right some conservative women you know came i 0.99

00:42:05.420 give the air quotes for conservative women um but you know i think they're conservative in some 1.00

00:42:11.460 regards um probably even that's not fair probably in many regards but i don't think they're being

00:42:16.940 conservative biblically conservative in this regard some women came out you know and said

00:42:21.740 it wasn't just ally to be fair to her but some women came out uh that that i you know for the

00:42:26.780 most part i like and just for the record for the most part i like alley yeah um yeah but they came 1.00

00:42:31.620 out and just said you know essentially that you know they came out on twitter and said essentially

00:42:36.540 uh girls girls just want to have fun well the original tweet was a man said why aren't men

00:42:41.260 interested in western women it was this video of all these women because of this raucously dancing

00:42:45.400 in mardi gras beads at a gas station and and women just couldn't take it that a man would say hey

00:42:50.560 this isn't this is why we are not attracted to you it was very i remember watching i even watched

00:42:54.380 the whole thing because it was silly but it was very masculine like very like the dance moves

00:42:58.740 the dance moves posturing strength what you'd expect uh like men of like a maasai tribe or

00:43:04.000 something like that exactly you know like like posture and show off this goes back to the comment

00:43:09.400 that you made earlier wes where interaction between young people of different sexes used to

00:43:16.820 be coordinated and orchestrated for proper commingling and uh i think it was um carl truman

00:43:23.720 said in his book that dance has changed tremendously it used to be dancing was partners or groups

00:43:32.300 right where you do a round dance and you have a new partner every couple minutes and you're just

00:43:35.820 interacting and there are roles and everyone knows the steps and it's a way of interacting

00:43:39.880 with one another and dance now has become a form of self-expression right and that you know so for

00:43:45.340 those women just say we get together and dance well that's that's not the kind of dance that 0.94

00:43:49.640 historically western society has valued or it's about roles my mom would say these girls don't 0.97

00:43:56.300 have any couth that's true that's what she would say and she'd be right but but just for the record

00:44:01.700 people are like well it's it's harmless they're just having fun they're not um it's not nearly

00:44:06.360 essential as is a lot of other dancing that true true um and they're not nearly as scantily clad

00:44:12.840 as a lot of like they're actually wearing shirts and you know and the bar is high pants you know

00:44:17.740 and not like a thong or something and that's also true um but uh but for those who said yeah but

00:44:23.640 still not a big fan like if you're saying uh i've seen worse yeah sure like nobody's saying this is

00:44:30.180 the worst video we've ever seen you know uh but all we're saying is uh but there's there's a there's

00:44:37.300 still a pretty big gap between okay it's not the worst i've seen versus um there's honor integrity

00:44:43.440 dignity like no this is not dignified uh because for a number of reasons one um is the lyrics

00:44:50.180 even john harris came out at first he said it seems somewhat benign and then he came back because he

00:44:55.520 had watched it but didn't not with the sound on and then he came back and he's like oh wait never

00:44:59.700 mind you know he publicly said uh nick's nick's my first opinion uh my new opinion is yeah this

00:45:05.320 is completely inappropriate it's some rap song that's all about lewdness and mardi gras is not

00:45:10.920 high school reunion right it is so that's the other thing is the mardi gras beads um what that

00:45:17.040 yeah so anyways uh but but the biggest thing was just to say like if if if sourdough we need to be

00:45:22.640 on guard but this is just girls just want to have fun as a nine then we know we've lost like uh we're

00:45:29.080 compromised and men need to take the lead on this perspective because it's men uniquely that that

00:45:34.440 can say hey this is you should know what this does this is uh promiscuous behavior i'm a man

00:45:41.840 i'm the one that's processing it so you're a woman you're looking at them like i see 0.50

00:45:45.220 it seems completely benign to me well yeah you're a woman uh we're talking about men specifically 0.98

00:45:50.440 the original tweet this is why western men don't have an interest in women acting like this

00:45:55.140 and you're going to gaslight us and say well no you should be attracted to that no of course not

00:45:59.760 No, no, thank you.

00:46:01.020 All right, let's cut to a commercial. 1.00

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00:47:12.840 All right, so we're going to get into some interesting research. First of all, the Bible

00:47:17.100 is true and it's the foundation. And if it says it, you can take it to the bank. But often in 0.88

00:47:21.380 God's design, nature reflects what the Bible teaches. So the Bible will teach one thing and

00:47:26.640 then we see multiple, multiple examples, tons of different ways in which this plays out. And these

00:47:32.100 point to not as over and above scripture as the enlightenment kind of posited that reason can

00:47:36.700 lead us to all of these same conclusions. No, scripture is the authority, but what scripture

00:47:40.720 says is true. And so that's often borne out. So we're going to get into some research. This is

00:47:44.540 an oxford anthropologist his name is j d unwin and he spent pretty much devoted his life to studying

00:47:50.200 sex sexual morals and culture how they interacted what effect the one had in the other so jd unwin

00:47:56.960 spent his life put together close to seven volumes worth of research into different tribes

00:48:00.860 and he wrote a book called sex and culture you're saying global right global yes exactly so and

00:48:06.680 these weren't uh from my sampling these weren't necessarily like christian tribes so it wasn't

00:48:10.900 sexual morals in Britain or sexual morals in the US. These were often tribes that were

00:48:15.080 unchristianized. So he categorized them all together, wrote a book called Sex and Culture.

00:48:19.160 This is some of the findings from it. It's very interesting. He's not a Christian. So he's not

00:48:23.320 coming to this with the presupposition that God's design for sexuality is the one that leads to the

00:48:27.440 greatest human flourishing. So he came to these cultures. He categorized them by their restrictiveness

00:48:32.500 prior to marriage and after marriage as far as sexual morals. So what the expectation was prior

00:48:37.260 a marriage, that individuals will come into the marriage, virgins, and after marriage. So sexual 0.95

00:48:41.620 morals. And then he categorized the level of flourishing in a society. So was the society

00:48:45.960 rationalistic, deistic, did it have a belief in God? Or the final stage, he called this a dead

00:48:51.540 society or an inert society, was a society that was all self-interested. It was transactional.

00:48:57.500 It was just didn't produce art and music. And what he found was that society's practicing

00:49:03.720 pre-marriage chastity. So the expectation that going into marriage, both partners would be a

00:49:08.780 virgin and absolute monogamy. So this is even that partners couldn't divorce at will. This is

00:49:14.100 monogamy, one partner until death, one partner for life. Societies that practice pre-marital chastity

00:49:20.600 and absolute monogamy were the most successful, surpassing all others in literature, art, science,

00:49:28.040 architecture, engineering, and agriculture. So the greatest societies, as he looked at them,

00:49:33.400 again not even a christian he recognized that sexual restriction on behavior to marriage was

00:49:39.480 what produced the greatest flourishing of society he has a long quote but it's really good on how

00:49:44.320 you don't get one or the other you don't get sexual freedom and a productive society in a

00:49:48.480 working society he says this sometimes a man has been heard to declare that he wishes both to enjoy

00:49:54.380 the advantages of high culture and to abolish compulsory restraint the inherent nature of the

00:49:59.320 human organism, however, seems to be that these desires are incompatible and even contradictory. 0.54

00:50:04.920 The reformer may be likened to the foolish boy who desires to both keep his cake and to consume it.

00:50:10.100 Any human society is free to choose either to display great energy or to enjoy sexual freedom. 0.97

00:50:16.520 The evidence is that it cannot do both for more than one generation. Why does modesty matter? Why

00:50:22.800 should pastors speak to this? Why should fathers instruct their daughters and their wives insofar

00:50:27.260 as it's needed to dress modestly well what's at stake is entire cultures when you lose all the

00:50:33.020 morals when you lose all the bounds i think of all the bonds i think of psalm chapter two where

00:50:36.860 the nations seek to throw off god's law when you do that now he noted there's a delay it takes

00:50:41.580 three generations within three generations societies die you cannot have unlimited sexual

00:50:48.420 freedom and sexual expression and actually build and create make great literature and great art 1.00

00:50:54.040 that's really insightful so you're telling me there's a straight line between bikinis 0.95

00:50:57.820 and uh the death of the west and jackson paulette painting i'm telling you exactly that yeah so 0.99

00:51:04.560 you're gonna get crap art if you have immodesty yeah because god designed marriage it's so

00:51:13.960 powerful right hip-hop is a perfect display of both right it's like i i mean it's worth saying 0.93

00:51:20.620 um and this is not a dig on on any one person but um because we love people made in the image

00:51:27.680 of god regardless of their gender if they're male or female or regardless of their ethnicity

00:51:32.020 for that reason and well let's say that reason alone that's enough reason i hate hip-hop i'll 0.94

00:51:38.340 just come out and say hip-hop has absolutely destroyed it's decimated the black community

00:51:43.360 like like going around uh and like music that glorifies and and just here's the false equivalency

00:51:49.240 just for the record since i'm on you know people will say well country music uh there's country

00:51:54.400 music that's lewd too and talks about you know sleeping with okay sure um but uh and and so

00:52:01.340 let's clean up the country music you know while we're at it but um these two things are not equal

00:52:05.700 like hip-hop and rap like is regularly talking about uh bragging about murder

00:52:12.700 rape the most vulgar thing the most vulgar things possibly imaginable um and because we love

00:52:20.100 people and for the record white people listen to hip-hop too so because we love society and we 0.98

00:52:26.100 don't want a bunch of degenerates then yeah get rid of get rid of hip-hop and and also look into

00:52:32.680 who's behind hip-hop not just the artists themselves but who are these producers and

00:52:37.380 who are these companies that are pushing this out on society in such a way that it degrades

00:52:41.700 but anyway all that being said like it's that that's an example where you see both you see

00:52:46.220 you know the the lewd dress but also you see um the lowest form of art and yes i said it yeah um

00:52:54.440 it's like what you're saying that hip-hop uh that you're saying that's not art uh-huh i'll look at

00:52:59.260 the camera it's not art uh i'm sorry it is it's bad art it's it's bad art if you're going to try

00:53:05.560 to compare that i mean i it's embarrassing it is embarrassing when you when you think of mozart

00:53:10.660 and Beethoven, ballroom dancing

00:53:12.740 and ballet and all these different things

00:53:14.700 that the West has achieved

00:53:16.500 and you look at us today, and I mean all

00:53:18.680 of us, myself included, like we

00:53:20.740 are the lesser sons of former

00:53:22.760 cybers. But the black community 0.95

00:53:24.520 produced jazz.

00:53:26.820 That was culturally

00:53:28.580 distinctive and beautiful and

00:53:30.300 helpful, incredible even.

00:53:33.500 Would anyone look at

00:53:34.600 the effective rap on these societies and say

00:53:36.520 man, these are just, and we're talking

00:53:38.280 real people, shot and killed

00:53:40.380 because their idols from growing up 0.98

00:53:42.620 were gangbangers and thugs. 0.57

00:53:44.580 So that's who they looked at. 0.90

00:53:45.600 That's who they emulated.

00:53:47.040 That's the music they listened to.

00:53:48.440 And people say it.

00:53:49.060 I mean, this is not like some secret thing

00:53:51.160 that we're asserting.

00:53:52.320 By people, their own admission,

00:53:55.560 documentaries have been done

00:53:56.800 and interviews have been done

00:53:58.120 of people in jail

00:53:59.240 or the loved ones of someone who died

00:54:01.940 and said, yeah, he started listening to this

00:54:03.720 at a young age.

00:54:04.580 He wanted to be cool.

00:54:05.460 He wanted to be accepted

00:54:06.320 because these were his idols,

00:54:08.680 these hip hop artists

00:54:10.020 that glorified selling drugs, doing drugs, getting drunk, 0.97

00:54:14.520 not just sexual immorality, but even rape and murder.

00:54:20.200 For all those reasons, he got into this when he was 12, 13, 14 years old,

00:54:25.120 and now he's dead, or now he's incarcerated.

00:54:27.180 Really died.

00:54:28.740 Real women that have had so many children out of wedlock. 0.88

00:54:31.580 This isn't just hypothetical.

00:54:33.140 And again, we say that, not because we hate the black community, out of love.

00:54:36.960 Love is not divorced from God's law.

00:54:38.660 and bring it back to women and to modesty we don't emphasize modesty for our wives and for

00:54:43.680 our daughters because we hate them i'm not standing there like a tyrant at the door with a ruler like

00:54:48.200 all right let's see if that skirt measures up no of course not it's actually unloving to advocate 0.97

00:54:53.460 for women's immodesty to say i want a woman to be able to express herself however she wants i want 0.54

00:54:57.780 her to be able to dress however it is but what you've done in permitting that is reduced her to 0.97

00:55:02.220 nothing more than physical attraction for a brief window for a brief window too a woman will not be 0.86

00:55:07.100 physically attractive for 40 50 years so there's this brief window and we love our wives and 0.92

00:55:13.540 daughters so much that we'll say hey honey uh you are so much more beautiful than that i think of

00:55:17.740 the beauty that peter talks about of a gentle and a quiet spirit love hospitality joy that's what i

00:55:23.440 want my daughter to be remembered for not to spend all of her cultural capital and energy and dressing

00:55:28.200 such a way that for five years she's the life of the party i want her celebrated until she dies at 0.86

00:55:33.880 80 and 90 surrounded by her children that love her don't ever settle for the low bar of like

00:55:40.080 this is just self-expression and attract no no no aim for so much higher the biblical standard

00:55:45.400 right and i think the reason why imperishable beauty of the heart it doesn't fade it just 0.98

00:55:50.760 grows the reason why this is linked to societal growth is because when a society looks at a woman

00:55:56.540 and sees her as a five-year piece of meat, 0.98

00:56:01.880 that says something about the kind of art

00:56:05.080 you're gonna produce. 1.00

00:56:05.980 But when women are viewed as life-giving nurturers 1.00

00:56:10.000 that we protect, provide for,

00:56:12.720 that men will give their entire life to provide for

00:56:15.600 and to love and to care for,

00:56:17.740 that produces a different kind of art,

00:56:20.280 different kinds of stories, different kinds of novels.

00:56:22.220 and and it also just on aside from the art it produces a society that reproduces itself that

00:56:29.500 flourishes where children are taken care of they can grow they can be healthy and well instructed

00:56:36.340 just night and day difference between two types of society that divide at the fork of the road

00:56:41.820 over modesty or immodesty yeah yep so so so many of these first sympathy two you know uh 0.99

00:56:48.620 she needs to be modest uh respectable attire avoiding the the ditch of lewd dress and lavish

00:56:55.740 dress uh dress but then other texts i think of first peter i believe it's first peter three

00:57:00.280 uh that says that um the beauty three through four right exactly and it's what and it's what

00:57:04.960 west is saying we don't want uh we don't want our daughters and our wives and to have a short

00:57:10.180 shelf life yep we want um we want the duration of their beauty uh not only to uh to hold for it to

00:57:17.220 be durable, but for it to be like a good investment that compounds and actually grows, just like our

00:57:24.280 sanctification. And so then what kind of beauty, what kind of investment needs to be made? What

00:57:29.340 needs to be an imperishable beauty? Notice how that's actually what the text says. It doesn't

00:57:34.300 just say inward beauty. It is inward beauty, because it gets to that later by saying it beauty

00:57:39.220 of the heart. But it's not just that it's inward beauty, but notice that the author, underneath

00:57:45.200 the inspiration of the spirit, instinctively writes imperishable. That which is inward beauty

00:57:50.000 is also the beauty that doesn't fade. It's imperishable. But then he goes further to

00:57:54.160 describe what it is. So earlier, like as we're looking at 1 Timothy 2 is don't be lewd, don't

00:57:59.600 be lavish. But then here he says, it's a quiet and gentle spirit, which is very precious in the

00:58:07.380 sight of God. Your heavenly father, every girl wants to be told she's pretty, especially by her

00:58:13.540 at. And that's literally the text, 1 Peter 3, is your heavenly Father, God, your true ultimate

00:58:20.280 Father, thinks you're pretty when you behave in the way that He created you to behave, which is

00:58:27.100 quiet and gentle, an inward beauty of the heart, which is also a beauty that will never fade. If

00:58:33.300 anything, it only increases and grows. It's imperishable. It's durable. So all that being

00:58:38.060 said uh if you think of verses to to men so much of it is about strength and so if i was to sum up

00:58:45.740 uh in a word just one word uh men um men should not be weak and women should not be loud i think

00:58:55.160 the loud proverbs talks about this the loud woman whether it's her dress immodesty is it's it's

00:59:01.260 being loud it's gaudy yeah it's gaudy it's loud it's pretentious it's um and and then uh but not

00:59:08.920 only being my point is it all fits into one word one theme and you can do it through dress

00:59:14.120 you can do it through dance like the sorority girls you know or but you can also do it on a

00:59:20.940 tuesday afternoon while wearing a sundress in the backyard in the way that you argue with your

00:59:24.820 husband. You can be a loud woman. You can do it on social media. A few women have probably done 0.89

00:59:32.080 it in the comments already. You're being loud. And a loud woman is an ugly woman. Those two words, 0.94

00:59:40.440 loud is synonymous in biblical terms for ugly when it comes to women. Well, what about for men? 0.96

00:59:47.320 I'm sorry. Men and women are not the same. No, the Bible does not give the exact same commands 0.99

00:59:52.900 to men as it gives to women. Are some commands universal both for men and women? Yes, but not

00:59:58.700 all. Some are specific. Not every command in scripture is androgynous. Even if they're

01:00:03.540 universal. Right. Amen. And so all that being said, women, what we're really getting at when

01:00:08.500 we speak about modesty or we speak about this or that is we're saying that women, a beautiful

01:00:14.620 woman, a dignified woman is a quiet woman. A quietness, and that doesn't mean she never talks,

01:00:21.020 But when she talks and how she talks, it's with grace, it's with dignity, it's calculated, it's careful, it's respectful, it's not loud.

01:00:36.880 She's not going around arguing with men.

01:00:39.920 She's not certainly, if she ever does, she's certainly not known for it.

01:00:44.580 She's not a loud woman.

01:00:46.940 She's not a loud woman by wearing the two-piece bathing suit. 1.00

01:00:50.440 She's also not a loud woman by being a Twitter warrior, you know, and arguing with men publicly for everyone to see.

01:00:58.860 Both are expressions of immodesty.

01:01:01.160 I've heard it said, and it's stuck with me for so long.

01:01:03.900 For men, the process of sanctification is taking the physical strength and translating that and growing spiritual strength.

01:01:10.280 Your physical strength will fade, but you can grow and show the spiritual strength. 0.85

01:01:14.080 In the same way for women, physical beauty will fade, but that beauty that you talked about that's imperishable, 0.80

01:01:19.440 being sanctified is taking that beauty that's physical

01:01:21.480 and transferring it and growing it into a spiritual beauty.

01:01:24.920 So for men, taking that strength,

01:01:26.300 going from the physical to the spiritual.

01:01:28.600 Spiritual strength, courage,

01:01:30.580 that'll last for generations that people will remember.

01:01:33.300 And the same thing for beauty,

01:01:34.820 as it translates to spiritual beauty,

01:01:37.300 a beauty of the heart that will last and be remembered.

01:01:39.680 And that spiritual strength, just for the record,

01:01:42.240 so that we don't go into that ditch.

01:01:46.100 And I know the three of us don't,

01:01:47.260 but so much of the reformed world 0.97

01:01:49.020 has gone into that ditch of pietism

01:01:50.680 and over-spiritualizing everything. 0.75

01:01:53.680 Spiritual strength, so you think of self-control.

01:01:56.560 That's one of the commandments regularly given to men.

01:01:58.740 And the reason why it's regularly given to men

01:02:00.500 is because men have strength.

01:02:02.440 And self-control is strength harnessed.

01:02:05.600 That's what self-control is.

01:02:07.300 It's taking something that's powerful

01:02:09.520 and subduing it.

01:02:13.120 Not eradicating it, but subduing it, harnessing it.

01:02:16.180 The prerequisite is you're actually able to be strong or to do something, and then you control it.

01:02:20.780 And that being said, a self-controlled man is not going to be physically weak. A self-controlled man,

01:02:31.280 the outflow of that is that he, not only that he's working to tame the tongue, no man can

01:02:38.120 perfectly tame the tongue, but he's not only is he working to be self-controlled in his speech,

01:02:42.800 but he's working to be self-controlled in his thoughts i saw in the comment saying like well

01:02:47.500 what about like so should a christian man not go to the beach uh yeah probably not we're probably

01:02:53.840 at that point yeah we are probably at that point and that's a shame i think that is a crying shame

01:02:58.740 um you know but i i think not to say that a father can never take his kids to show them

01:03:04.260 the beach but but he probably needs to be calculated strategic about which beach he's

01:03:09.240 going to can we find a beach where there's not necessarily a hope you know during spring break

01:03:13.760 but yeah like i mean you know going to the beach is essentially i mean it's it's it's maybe three

01:03:19.840 percent away from just uh going to a strip club you know these days sadly and again sadly so but

01:03:26.740 that my point is that would be self-control um so self-control in in our thoughts and self-control

01:03:32.420 uh with with diet or with with training or with all these different things um a man should be

01:03:38.600 strong and if he's strong spiritually um he's not going to be a walking contradiction just like a

01:03:44.580 woman if she's uh if she has a quiet and gentle spirit she won't be lewd on the outside so to a

01:03:50.760 man if he has uh strength uh and strength under control harnessed strength spiritually uh then 0.51

01:03:58.280 then physically um he's not going to be a slop and he's not going to be uh just completely

01:04:03.060 indulgent and given to all of his based appetites so yeah yeah peter does such a good job in first 0.79

01:04:09.520 peter three so he says that quiet and gentle spirit and that can sound hard for some women

01:04:14.040 but right before he prefaces it and this is so probably uncommon in that time uh women you are

01:04:19.060 co-heirs in the grace of life husbands do not be harsh to your wives but live with them in an

01:04:23.900 understanding way because you're together in that the bible's commands because if you're looking at

01:04:28.160 this like i hate that idea of a quiet and gentle spirit well you hate the bible and so repent

01:04:32.600 but that's not just given because the bible has no regard and it says put the women in the corner 0.64

01:04:37.620 forget about them dress modestly honey no the bible says you have been elevated you are right

01:04:42.300 together with men in christ there is neither male nor female uh so no it's not abolishing gender

01:04:47.920 but it's saying uh as it relates to salvation men and women are the same footing and your co-heirs

01:04:53.000 together and this is how your heavenly father that has raised you up and seated you in heavenly

01:04:57.620 places with christ expects you to think not a degrading not a get in the corner not a how could

01:05:03.260 you but i love you and this plan for you will lead to your flourishing the man you will attract

01:05:08.800 for our daughters especially the man you attract by dressing in such a way that's beautiful but

01:05:15.080 also modest and respectful is going to be leagues better than the man you will address the man you

01:05:20.660 will attract by dressing in such a way to attract someone else right any other quotes or anything

01:05:26.580 that i just want to make sure we got everything out anything else that was it okay that's it uh

01:05:30.800 we'll we'll leave with this patreon right um so every single week uh michael and wes they write

01:05:36.940 an article so they alternate every week writing in articles uh for the purpose of this wednesday

01:05:42.020 live stream so uh if you're tuning in now for the first time uh we're here lord willing every

01:05:46.740 wednesday at 4 p.m central time so uh every wednesday 4 p.m central time that's the live

01:05:51.480 It's me with Michael and Wes, who are both members at the local church that I pastor.

01:05:57.620 And they're writing an article that has, sometimes it has statistics or even graphs, you know, and lots of different quotes.

01:06:04.140 And usually, you know, in a concise format, 750 to 1,500 words, but also an outline.

01:06:10.960 It's really helpful for the purpose of when we get together on Wednesday so that we actually have some preparation.

01:06:17.040 We're not just shooting from the hip.

01:06:18.520 It's thoughtful.

01:06:19.280 It's contemplated.

01:06:20.080 and strategic but if you are someone who learns visually if you like listening the audible you

01:06:27.920 know tuning into the podcast but you also want to see some of these quotes and be able to read

01:06:33.000 like all the john owen quotes that michael shared today or the uh who are you quoting uh jeff

01:06:38.200 pollard jeff paul as well as jd unman okay if you want to be able to read those quotes and remember

01:06:43.040 them you know or post them on twitter tomorrow and get swarmed by a lot of christian women

01:06:48.600 reformed christian women we'll be there with you um you know and we'll like your post uh well then

01:06:52.900 what you need to do is simply join us on patreon if you join us on patreon um as a gold member

01:06:58.180 in addition to being able to watch and listen to the weekly live stream on wednesdays you also get

01:07:03.600 to have the article so that's the last thing we'll leave you with and then also a special thanks for

01:07:08.020 uh everybody who came out to our conference this last weekend it was a huge success yes yeah it

01:07:12.560 was awesome to meet people in person it was encouraging for us and a lot of you said that

01:07:16.680 you were encouraged as well. We ended up having about 850 people, which was really, really cool

01:07:22.160 to just see a lot of like-minded people in our, you know, tiny little tribe of, you know,

01:07:28.780 post-millennial reformed, you know, new Christendom kind of, you know, thing. And so it was just,

01:07:36.020 it was just really encouraging to see people in the flesh, in person. Doug Wilson was there,

01:07:41.360 Joe Boot was there, the guys from Ogden, Eric Kahn and Brian Sauve. And we had a really great

01:07:46.520 time and um oh uh and you know they didn't tell me to do this but just uh to help help our friends

01:07:54.020 out um the the next thing that should be somewhat comparable to the conference we just had would be

01:07:59.440 the new christenem conference which is happening in june um there's some guys from our church that

01:08:03.740 will be there i'll be speaking yep uh in utah in ogden utah i'll be speaking chase davis will be

01:08:09.160 speaking uh steven wolf will be speaking and i just saw on twitter the other day he said that um

01:08:14.600 that uh he said something like um i'm from now on i'm i'm not going to be careful anymore and i was

01:08:20.920 like and i literally like i commented and i said you're telling me over the last 18 months that

01:08:25.500 was you being careful that's what doug says is on my tombstone he'll say i was taking it easy i was

01:08:30.740 holding back yeah exactly so but steven wolf will be there and uh and he has told us that he's uh

01:08:35.560 he's been this whole time he's been playing uh nice and uh he's gonna take off the gloves and

01:08:40.160 then also uh joe rigney will be there which would be really cool so that's sometime in june i don't

01:08:44.700 know the dates but just go to new christened press.com new christened press.com thanks for tuning in

The NXR Podcast - March 06, 2024

THE LIVESTREAM - Why Pastors & Fathers MUST Address Women & Modesty

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