The NXR Podcast - THE LIVESTREAM - Zondervan’s Political Bible & Preston Sprinkles’ Subversion w Dr. Jared Moore

00:00:00.000 Leave us a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform.

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00:00:16.280 You and I both know that this ministry is willing to talk about things that most ministries aren't.

00:00:21.860 We need this content for the glory of God to reach more people's ears.

00:00:26.800 It's hard to fathom, but in the United States, Reformed Christians make up a very small percentage

00:00:33.780 of Protestant congregations and congregants. That means that publishing houses that are much bigger

00:00:39.820 than Reformation heritage books and personalities with a bigger reach than R.C. Sproul exerts

00:00:46.160 significant influence over a much broader swath of American evangelicals than merely small

00:00:52.800 Reformed Outfits. One such influential publisher is Zondervan Publishers, a media company and

00:00:59.720 printer founded almost a hundred years ago that is the publisher of the popular NIV Bible

00:01:06.080 translation, which has sold over 450 million copies. Zondervan brings in over 100 million

00:01:13.560 annually. Today, Zondervan is publishing their new Upside Down Kingdom Bible. It is edited by

00:01:22.900 none other than Preston Sprinkle, who is an author and speaker that has said in the past that the

00:01:29.820 church will look more like Jesus if it has more trans people in it, not fewer. Packed full of 1.00

00:01:37.480 contributions from Michael Bird, Jamar Tisby, Francis Chan, and others, this one is sure to

00:01:45.440 leave off of your wish list. This episode is brought to you by our premier sponsors, Armored

00:01:52.260 Republic and Reese Fund, as well as our Patreon members and our faithful donors. You can join our

00:01:59.020 Patreon by going to patreon.com forward slash right response ministries, or you can donate at

00:02:05.960 rightresponseministries.com forward slash donate. Tune in today as we discuss Zondervan's political

00:02:14.660 Bible, Preston Sprinkle, and how to combat the insidious lies of big evangelicalism with Dr.

00:02:22.880 Jared Moore.

00:02:23.780 all right welcome back guys yep thanks for you i know thanks for holding it down while i was gone

00:02:38.020 i have a i have a white pill a good report from the front line i spent uh traveled up saw some

00:02:42.900 family saw friends these are guys like i grew up with but uh just interacting with them like

00:02:47.240 they're not listening to aaron mcintyre or anything but man my goodness they're like god

00:02:51.020 bless trump we need our nation back we need christian principles christian morals so i'm

00:02:55.660 happy to report the youth are all right we're gonna we're gonna win uh men are getting radicalized so

00:03:00.160 today we're talking about zondervan publishers and more specifically preston sprinkle but to

00:03:05.200 zoom out for a minute like why why does it matter like all right there's a political bible or there's

00:03:09.340 bad bible translation like why is that necessarily relevant we've had the passion translation for a

00:03:14.160 while we've had the message why is it that it makes such big news especially for you the listener

00:03:19.060 Most people that listen to this show, they're probably of Reformed persuasion, whether that

00:03:22.680 would be Presbyterian or some type of Reformed Baptist.

00:03:25.600 So at the end of the day, they say, like, well, that's all well and good that someone 0.91

00:03:28.400 somewhere out there is publishing a Bible that's silly and political, and you have this 0.98

00:03:32.700 man who's trying to sneak into American evangelicalism, the idea of gay Christians and trans 0.97

00:03:37.700 Christians, but what influence does it have?

00:03:40.460 And what I kind of, we've been talking about it for several months, I alluded to it in

00:03:43.460 the cold open. The Reformed tribe, the Reformed world, it's a lot smaller than we really think

00:03:49.700 it is. When you think of the people that are voting, when you think of people that are involved

00:03:52.780 in politics, when you think of the books that are being authored, the New York Times bestsellers,

00:03:56.860 there's a huge pool of American evangelical Christians out there. And the fact of the

00:04:01.480 matter is, as Reformed Christians, we're just ultimately, we're not very connected to them.

00:04:05.820 It's not Reformation heritage books or Banner of Truth that are necessarily the bread and butter

00:04:10.060 of the millions and millions of, it's about, so two thirds of America is Christian on paper. Now

00:04:16.100 that's down from 99% in 1900, but 66 to 68% of America is Christian. And about 150 of that,

00:04:23.520 150 million is Protestant or reformed. You can show a graph, Nate, of that 150 million, so 150

00:04:30.300 American Christians that would claim to be Protestant, of that amount, you can actually

00:04:35.040 see that those that are reformed in the Presbyterian church, they're a very small proportion

00:04:39.060 of it. So right here, you've got a bar graph on your screen. On the left, you have the number of

00:04:42.680 non-denominational churches in the U.S. This is estimated to be about 44,000 to 45,000. The

00:04:47.900 biggest denomination would be Southern Baptists. They're down a little bit. They have about 47,000

00:04:52.180 churches, not just members, but churches. So 44,000 non-denominational, 47,000 Southern Baptists,

00:04:58.800 big evangelical, big tent, non-denominational Baptist churches. Let's take the Presbyterians. 0.62

00:05:06.560 napark north american presbyterian and reformed council that's a conglomerate of pca and opc and

00:05:12.260 some other smaller denominations they co they work together and the crec something like three

00:05:18.940 three to eight thousand estimated it's a tiny proportion and the crec just for the record

00:05:25.040 wouldn't that be less than 500 of that i think i saw about four to five hundred would be the estimate

00:05:31.260 the opc is like 300 churches total the pca is 1200 or something about 1800 was my estimate

00:05:38.160 pc usa is like 8 000 right yeah so that's a mainline denomination so even if we step down 0.96

00:05:43.520 from baptist but they're super gay to pro to reform protestant super gay within the super gay 0.95

00:05:48.860 still kind of gay for the most part but it's a beautiful building but you will have a purpled 0.99

00:05:54.620 haired lesbian pastor and there will be a pride flag adorning 100 the pulpit so we're the point 0.84

00:06:00.260 is, we're a small part of that. And so that means that there are publishers and influential groups

00:06:05.320 and academics, institutions, universities out there, they exert massive influence. And because

00:06:11.720 you don't see it, because you don't experience it, because their books aren't on your shelf,

00:06:15.740 does not mean that they hold significant sway over American evangelicals. And one such of those that

00:06:21.200 we're going to be talking about is Zondervan. They've been around for almost 100 years. And

00:06:24.840 they're the publisher of the NIV Bible, the nearly inspired version, as some like to call it,

00:06:29.240 which has sold 450 million copies.

00:06:32.520 This is a Bible I had a copy of growing up.

00:06:36.000 It's just they've been around for a while.

00:06:37.740 They put out a lot of books.

00:06:39.300 And they've been at their tricks for a long time.

00:06:42.500 Michael has a little bit more on that, so I want to open it up.

00:06:44.880 But this is a group that is very influential.

00:06:47.140 Again, maybe not necessarily you, the listener,

00:06:49.300 but your parents, your friends, your hometown.

00:06:52.160 You have family that you're related to.

00:06:53.940 These are the type of books, if they're in church,

00:06:56.280 that they have on their bookshelf.

00:06:57.920 Yep, yep.

00:06:59.240 Like you say, Wes, it's true.

00:07:01.800 Zondervan has been, to put it charitably, trying to figure out what to do about gender

00:07:09.620 ideology and language for a little while.

00:07:12.100 And so there have actually been several versions of the New International Version Bible, or

00:07:17.760 several editions, I should say, of that version over the last couple of decades.

00:07:21.780 And it's interesting how the emphasis on gender-neutral pronouns or plural pronouns instead of he has been actually creeping into the Christian world for a long time.

00:07:36.400 It's in the secular world, too.

00:07:38.100 But here's an example of how the New International Version has translated one specific verse.

00:07:43.660 This is Mark 4.25.

00:07:46.440 And so the first edition of this was in 1984.

00:07:49.860 It says, whoever has will be given more, whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken

00:07:57.000 from him.

00:07:58.060 And this is translating anthropos in the Greek, which means man or mankind.

00:08:03.640 The 2005 NIV had an update and they chose to go the plural route, which grammatically

00:08:08.380 I've taught English grammar multiple times, and this just drives me crazy.

00:08:14.460 Those who have will be given more for those who do not have, even what they have will

00:08:19.000 be taken from them.

00:08:19.740 So it went from a singular, what he has, to a plural. 0.82

00:08:23.300 What they have will be taken from them.

00:08:25.280 And all this does is avoid the word he.

00:08:29.180 The masculine pronoun.

00:08:29.900 Yeah, he and him.

00:08:31.200 And then the 2011 version, there was an outcry about this.

00:08:33.800 And so they split the difference, which grammatically is even worse in the English language.

00:08:38.280 It says, whoever has will be given more.

00:08:40.520 Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.

00:08:45.340 And so here you have a singular noun, whoever has will be given more, and switching within 0.68

00:08:51.900 the same sentence to a plural noun, what they have will be taken from them.

00:08:56.540 What's interesting about this is, Nate, you can go to the next slide, Zondervan defends

00:09:03.600 their tampering and tinkering with pronouns and these sorts of translations or versions

00:09:11.840 of these verses this way.

00:09:13.540 They actually had a whole study committee that did an extensive study, and this was

00:09:18.240 one of their conclusions.

00:09:19.480 The study committee said, the gender-neutral pronoun they, or them and theirs, is by far

00:09:24.560 the most common way that English language speakers and writers today refer back to singular

00:09:29.820 antecedents such as whoever, anyone, somebody, a person, no one, and the like. 0.51

00:09:34.480 Now, the fact is, this actually in our time is true.

00:09:38.060 This is true in our culture, and it is true that English language has come to use these non-equal pronouns.

00:09:48.840 So you use a plural pronoun them to talk about he or her.

00:09:52.720 And just as a side note, I've been a fan for a long time that we need to start using the masculine he again when we refer to just an unknown single person in society.

00:10:01.280 Like that ought to be, in many ways, what comes to our mind when we think about the lawyer or the soldier or the politician.

00:10:10.000 But there's another interesting point here, because when we think about the English language in particular, the two things that kind of universalized and gave convention to the English language were Shakespeare and the King James Bible.

00:10:27.120 And so it's interesting to see that Zondervan is now saying, well, we are trying to adjust

00:10:32.080 our version of the Bible to match social convention, whereas before, it was the King

00:10:38.740 James Bible and Shakespeare that shaped the social convention. And I think it's an interesting

00:10:43.460 just thing to notice about where we are versus where we used to be in history.

00:10:49.460 You'll see this in your ESV, the battle over Doulos, which would be slave. The ESV, I have

00:10:54.180 one right in front of me they'll make that bond servant right which is kind of redundant bond

00:10:58.700 servant and because that term slay oh we don't really like it and uh it takes a adelphi which

00:11:04.980 would be brothers the esv does a good job and that typically doesn't try to throw in their

00:11:08.460 ancestors right paul is generally saying greet the brothers brothers i write to you he's not

00:11:12.540 writing brothers and sisters preach the word be faithful he's writing brothers but the esv does

00:11:17.580 go out of its way typically in most versions of it with the publisher right to add to the bottom

00:11:21.640 well, this could mean brothers and sisters.

00:11:23.660 This is a very inclusive term.

00:11:25.080 And so it is true though, grammatically,

00:11:27.760 like there is some merit to that.

00:11:29.020 Like I speak Spanish and I teach Spanish

00:11:31.200 and the word brothers, in fact, just today we took a test

00:11:34.240 and they were asking me,

00:11:35.540 like the word brothers can mean a group of men

00:11:38.340 or it can mean a mixed group of siblings.

00:11:41.460 And so language is tricky

00:11:44.840 and translating language is tricky also.

00:11:47.260 Exactly.

00:11:47.800 Yeah.

00:11:48.120 Joel, I remember when you preached a number of years ago

00:11:50.620 on why we cannot allow ourselves to,

00:11:55.340 especially with the verses that talk about us being God's sons.

00:11:59.000 And we cannot say we are God's sons and daughters.

00:12:01.640 And there's a real, and I don't know if you want to just take two or three minutes

00:12:04.120 and explain that, because that was really eye-opening to me.

00:12:07.060 Thanks.

00:12:07.480 Yeah, because in that case, there's just significant theological implications

00:12:14.540 that come from being a son.

00:12:16.540 The daughters would not receive the inheritance.

00:12:19.880 And so when we speak of, you know, the doctrine of adoption, you know, the ministry of the Holy Spirit and justification, the doctrine of justification being declared righteous and then being grafted into the family of God, you know, where the branches and Jesus is the vine, John 15, were grafted in.

00:12:37.000 And when that takes place, you know, we go from being children of God's wrath to being, you know, beloved adoptive children, but particularly sons and not daughters, because we're co-heirs with Christ.

00:12:51.420 we actually share in the son, capital S, in his inheritance. And that becomes ours. And it's the

00:12:58.280 son that carries on the name of the father that is the rightful heir to his entire estate. And so,

00:13:07.520 no, there are no daughters of the kingdom in the technical sense. And in the ministry of adoption,

00:13:14.940 we are adopted as sons. And that would include, you know, women who are born again by grace alone

00:13:21.200 through faith alone and Christ alone, they too are co-heirs in grace and they're receiving that

00:13:27.340 spiritual eternal inheritance that is theirs rightfully by virtue of having faith in Christ.

00:13:33.700 But they're receiving that as sons in terms of a legal status, not that women in the afterlife

00:13:41.660 will become male, but in the legal judicial status. My wife is a co-heir in grace along

00:13:49.120 with me and she's receiving the inheritance that would be given to a son. And so in that sense,

00:13:55.200 it matters. And so when we're looking at scripture, you know, that talks about,

00:13:58.800 you know, that we're sons of the living God, you know, he's adopted us as sons.

00:14:03.480 We don't need to say sons and daughters. It's understood theologically that God adopts

00:14:09.680 by virtue of conversion, that he adopts, he saves both men and women. We know that.

00:14:16.200 we know that that's that's obvious from other portions of scripture but when we're speaking

00:14:20.900 of adoption and all the judicial corresponding you know legal rights and inheritance that

00:14:26.440 corresponds with that then we should say what the bible says sons and we don't have to bend

00:14:32.540 over backwards to constantly be trying to make everything as inclusive as possible because in

00:14:39.180 that case you know it's a bit ironic but the irony is that by virtue of including you know sons and

00:14:44.380 daughters you're actually um you're actually downgrading um all female christians status and

00:14:51.280 inheritance you're saying so god actually adopts both he adopts sons and daughters and what that

00:14:55.520 would imply is that god saves both men and women but he saves them in a different way or at least

00:15:00.620 saves them unto a different status that men are saved unto one status of a full inheritance and

00:15:07.600 women you know i don't know maybe they get a dowry or something you know like a lighter status

00:15:12.280 and that's not true so yep hebrews talks about too that i will tell if he's quoting psalm 22

00:15:17.300 i will tell my brothers in the midst of the congregation like that's what he didn't say

00:15:21.120 like i'll be there and i'll talk of my brothers and sisters all right so we're going to dig into

00:15:25.580 this upside down kingdom bible we're going to play the the actual video that's used to

00:15:30.280 advertise this why you should why you should purchase your copy of zondervan before we do

00:15:35.720 real quick i you know we just went on a trip and visited the guys in ogden my family and also

00:15:40.700 Nathan's family and another family from Georgetown. So we took three families up there and spent time

00:15:46.320 with Brian and Eric and Dan, Ben and those guys. And I'm reminded because we were just on a plane

00:15:52.680 with a lot of little kids and they were, you know, digging through the pockets and finding, you know,

00:15:56.240 like the menu and the little instruction, you know, thing that shows you how to put on the mask

00:16:01.220 and, you know, use the flotation device under your seat. And they also, of course, naturally,

00:16:06.100 as small children tend to do they found the vomit bag and so as we're going into this video right

00:16:12.100 i would strongly strongly um prescribe um finding you know whether it's a trash can or you know some

00:16:18.900 something that you can throw up into you know other than merely throwing up into your lap

00:16:23.940 um because i think uh anything from preston sprinkle you're gonna need it how did he get 0.81

00:16:28.580 that last name like you don't even choose them and god was just like i'm gonna give the gayest 0.66

00:16:34.180 well here's the deal that's what i was gonna say is god is we forget this and i mean this seriously 0.68

00:16:38.500 i'm not i'm not just being facetious god is exceedingly kind seriously and like pilgrim's

00:16:44.960 progress you know sometimes like some of the critiques was you know it's allegorical and

00:16:48.460 sometimes people are like ah bunyan you know like it's just it's too on the nose right i mean you've

00:16:53.500 got like a judge over here in a courtroom in vanity fair called you know mr hate good you

00:16:59.560 know like like couldn't you be like a little bit more subtle give a little more mystery i mean the

00:17:03.880 dude's name is mr hate good it's like obvious this is a bad guy you know like let the reader

00:17:09.780 guess a little bit right like his character can slowly come out through the narrative you know

00:17:14.640 you don't have to just label it right up front hey this is a bad guy and this is a good guy you

00:17:19.140 know the lead protagonist christian you know and uh one of the bad guys mr hate good but sometimes

00:17:24.920 god does that in the same way that john bunyan did because um god loves clarity and he wants to

00:17:30.120 be merciful and kind and um in god's providence he gave preston sprinkle the last name sprinkle

00:17:35.300 so we would know this dude's gay all right all right let's play this video it's been said that

00:17:41.020 the christian faith is personal but not private our faith is political but it's not partisan 0.57

00:17:46.400 christianity in other words is not about some private little jesus that we keep tucked away

00:17:50.800 in our hearts rather the lordship of king jesus should determine how we think about all areas of

00:17:55.860 life. Economics, immigration, the death penalty, abortion, war, violence, power, justice, sexuality

00:18:02.680 and what it means to follow the Creator's design for human flourishing. This is why I'm so excited

00:18:08.420 about the Upside Down Kingdom Study Bible. This study Bible seeks to unleash the counter-cultural 1.00

00:18:14.360 upside-down nature of the Christian faith. Our hope and goal is that the Upside Down Kingdom 1.00

00:18:20.040 Study Bible will provide you with a fresh and exciting encounter with God's Word so that you

00:18:25.580 you may be challenged to think more deeply

00:18:28.360 and love more widely.

00:18:35.240 So just for the sake of clarity, as a disclaimer,

00:18:38.680 cover the basis here.

00:18:40.120 As far as I know, I have zero definitive knowledge

00:18:42.920 that Preston Sprinkle is literally gay. 0.58

00:18:45.620 Just wanna clear that up. 0.94

00:18:47.420 What he is. 1.00

00:18:48.340 We're saying G-H-E-Y. 1.00

00:18:49.820 Yeah, G-H-E-Y, exactly. 1.00

00:18:52.340 But in terms of G-A-Y, like actually gay, 0.99

00:18:56.420 the proper biblical term being sodomite, 0.99

00:18:59.540 he is sodomite friendly.

00:19:01.360 He himself is not one, as far as we know. 0.56

00:19:05.180 But that's what this study Bible is attempting to do,

00:19:08.100 is to carve out space.

00:19:09.200 And one of the things I hate,

00:19:10.400 I should have taken my own advice,

00:19:12.740 I should have grabbed something during that video

00:19:14.880 so that I could have thrown up.

00:19:17.220 But one of the things I hate is,

00:19:20.160 Democrats do this all the time,

00:19:21.940 And I mean, I would be shocked

00:19:23.600 if Preston Sprinkle voted for Trump.

00:19:25.720 No.

00:19:26.220 Like the dude is, the dude's a Democrat probably

00:19:29.380 in the same vein as, remember Russell Moore

00:19:32.400 and like David French and who else came out?

00:19:35.880 It was-

00:19:36.760 Oh, Ortlund.

00:19:37.260 Ray Ortlund guy.

00:19:38.120 Ray Ortlund.

00:19:38.960 Remember he said, never Trump, this time Harris,

00:19:42.360 always Jesus.

00:19:43.880 Yeah.

00:19:44.640 Also the coalition board member.

00:19:47.440 Get that for a second.

00:19:48.800 We just got to stop there for a second.

00:19:49.860 ray ortland said never trump he tweeted this publicly he took it down he did it on blue sky

00:19:55.740 because he thought he'd get away with it yeah he did it on exactly like they made an entire

00:20:00.220 social media platform for all the gays to transfer over to because they were getting wrecked on x

00:20:04.720 but you know when as soon as they started stopped as soon as soon as elon stopped suppressing 0.97

00:20:09.920 conservatives aka people who have common sense then all you know all of a sudden the the gay 0.97

00:20:15.600 libtards started getting wrecked on x and so an entire you know ecosystem was created for them 1.00

00:20:20.760 you know so that they could for all 15 of them for all 15 of them blue skies is one of them 0.99

00:20:25.400 and so but over there where i you know i guess ray ortland obviously belongs you know based off

00:20:31.000 of this tweet he ended up taking it down though because he got roasted so severely praise god

00:20:35.320 rightfully so but he literally said never trump this time harris always jesus he literally said

00:20:44.800 i am voting for kamala harris and in the comments one of the first comments david french

00:20:50.500 said uh amen or this is the way this is the way this is the way yeah like quoting the mandalorian

00:20:56.840 yeah this is the way um and so anyways democrats like ray ortlin um like like david french these

00:21:04.020 guys are not conservatives that is like that's such a joke um so liberals um arguably even to

00:21:12.280 the point of being progressives in the case of david french for sure russell moore for sure um

00:21:17.360 but what they do is um they always use the language of like uh jesus he goes against the

00:21:24.140 grain he's countercultural you know so preston's using that language we wanted a study bible that's 1.00

00:21:28.440 countercultural notice what they're doing that they are assuming that you are stupid enough 0.88

00:21:34.060 to believe that in 2025 that the uh that the overarching culture is um is staunchly uh standing 0.91

00:21:46.760 for traditional conservative biblical values right so when they say counterculture what they

00:21:52.420 mean is they're saying the culture today in the west is um normative heterosexuality

00:22:01.000 against sodomy against gay marriage um against transgenderism against abortion against um

00:22:10.420 mass you know invasion of immigrants against this against that against and they're saying

00:22:16.260 that's the culture and our study bible is counter-cultural you know what you mean is

00:22:21.540 your study bible is isn't there's nothing counter-cultural about it you're saying our

00:22:26.480 study bible is actually exactly in line with culture that's why we made it and that's why

00:22:33.220 zondervan stepped in to make it because zondervan wants to make a buck and so they're making they're

00:22:38.520 putting their finger in the wind seeing which way the cultural winds are blowing and for everybody's

00:22:44.560 like well you're being inconsistent right now because aren't you excited that trump won and

00:22:48.060 don't you feel like that you know like like the vibe shift you know and the white pill and yeah

00:22:52.100 100 but let's just be honest i am i'm over the moon that trump won and not uh harris um 0.97

00:22:59.500 but at the rnc you still have a bunch of a bunch of queers literally up on literally 0.91

00:23:05.300 i mean no i mean literally like like the the gay lgbt lmnop crowd has been warmly welcomed yep 0.92

00:23:13.880 into uh the the new gop absolutely 100 so even for like the vibe shift i think there is a vibe

00:23:21.480 shift i think that yeah hashtag winning uh we'll take what we can get there's a lot more work to

00:23:26.140 be done though guys a lot more work to be done we don't need a black pill we don't need to despair

00:23:30.200 we can actually celebrate victories even when they're small i'm celebrating i'm happy these

00:23:35.280 are not two things that i'm saying that contradict one another they're both um they both can work

00:23:40.080 in tandem uh number one white pills for days praise god praise god he's being merciful to

00:23:47.060 our country change is underway and uh and i feel more hopeful at a large cultural political

00:23:53.560 standpoint than i have in years all right that's statement number one statement number two uh the 0.60

00:23:59.820 gop is still super duper gay and that's the conservative platform in our nation the other 0.98

00:24:06.340 one is so gay that's you can't even you can't even see straight right it's like ricky bobby on 0.99

00:24:12.220 talladega night it's like i'm getting dizzy because of all the gayness you know like you can't even 0.97

00:24:15.700 see that's how gay the other one is so my point is when you say we're coming out with a study bible 0.89

00:24:20.800 that's counter-cultural if that was true then that study bible would be saying uh believe it or not 0.96

00:24:28.560 deported believe it or not uh jailed for sodomy believe it or not universal pornography ban

00:24:37.680 law believe it or not only fans shut down believe it like it would be that kind of commentary those

00:24:44.580 kinds of of uh footnotes um i guarantee you those are not the footnotes of this upside down um

00:24:52.100 kingdom bible when they say counter-culture what they actually mean is it's counter-cultural

00:24:56.500 to the culture of christendom in its heyday 200 years ago it's counter it's counter england in

00:25:04.260 the 1700s their culture but it's right in line yep with our culture today and the worst aspects of it

00:25:11.220 well there was an exchange because woke preacher clips he pulled a bunch of clips from the

00:25:14.620 promotional it was just i mean if you needed a vomit bag for the first one my goodness for those

00:25:18.860 but he said you know it's funny because they they talk about i'm gonna we're gonna gather this host 0.84

00:25:22.620 of different viewpoints there's all of this just drooling over like the perspective of women and

00:25:27.260 there's prospective minorities all these different ones and woke preacher clips who does some great

00:25:31.480 work he was like well i'm sure there will be representation of course from the patriarchal

00:25:35.660 view which was the main view throughout all of christian history and preston sprinkle himself

00:25:39.520 came in he said don't worry i would have i would love to assure you there will be no patriarchal

00:25:43.740 viewpoint anywhere in this book wow so we have the majority view and what we're going to do is

00:25:49.240 we're going to we're going to sample a view from this side from this ethnicity and this culture

00:25:53.020 and women and i probably children i mean the more diversity the better and and then leave off i just

00:25:59.260 what 98 of the church was through all of church history i want to just real quick cite a couple

00:26:04.240 comments because i think it serves as a good case study for everybody else i'm not really even

00:26:07.800 talking to these individuals because maybe the Holy Spirit could bring conviction and change

00:26:13.140 their minds and persuade them to those kinds of things. God's sovereign. He can do whatever he

00:26:16.820 wants to do. But I think, you know, if I had to guess, they probably won't be persuaded,

00:26:20.820 the two comments I'm about to read. But I think it serves as an example, as a larger case study

00:26:25.500 for all of our other listeners to help them along and why we speak the way we do, why we use some

00:26:31.720 of the rhetoric that we do, why we're, you know, in terms of not just our theology, but our

00:26:37.100 methodology. So a couple of the comments, H.J.M. says, so much of Jesus' love coming through here,

00:26:43.640 being sarcastic with a smirky emoji. And then somebody named, the handle is J.W. I don't think

00:26:52.460 it's James White, but J.W. says, the irony here is that you're just as damaging to the body of

00:26:57.880 Christ as Sprinkle. You're just in the ditch on the other side of the road. So to both of those

00:27:02.620 comments my response would be i don't really care margaret and and the reason why i say that is

00:27:09.740 yeah one it's funny but two um that is the proper response we have tried we have tried tolerance

00:27:18.660 in our nation and in our culture for the past 70 years and it has gotten us um the dismembering

00:27:28.540 of 70 million babies in their mother's womb it has gotten us the chopping off of genitals of 0.99

00:27:35.320 children it has gotten us gay pride parades in new york city with men's genitalia hanging out 0.99

00:27:43.620 and shaking around as parents holding their children on the sidelines on the streets 0.98

00:27:49.220 watching this take place it has gotten us a full-scale invasion of foreigners who worship 0.80

00:27:56.540 foreign gods at our southern border who come in illegally, many of them criminals, who not only 0.87

00:28:02.760 take jobs from Americans who are trying to provide for their families, but also at an exponentially 1.00

00:28:08.940 higher statistical rate, rape our wives and daughters. We are done being tolerant. We're done 0.97

00:28:18.420 being tolerant. Jesus, when he fashions a whip of cords in John chapter 2 and begins to drive out

00:28:25.080 the money changers. He is not putting gentleness to the side. He is embodying perfect gentleness,

00:28:31.320 which is a fruit of the spirit. Who's he being gentle to? He's being gentle to all the people

00:28:36.580 who came from the four corners of the earth to worship God at a time, a covenantal time under

00:28:42.780 the old covenant in Israel, where there was a geographic center for worship of God. They

00:28:47.880 couldn't stay home. They couldn't just build their own churches. They must come to the temple.

00:28:51.840 They've given up work for months, at least weeks.

00:28:55.460 They've paid an incredibly high price for travel.

00:28:58.860 And now they're trying to buy some pigeons or doves, one of the cheapest offerings that

00:29:03.740 they could possibly give to God, the triune God, for the absolving of their sin, to receive

00:29:11.720 his blessing, to renew steadfast covenant with him.

00:29:15.120 They've already paid an exorbitant price, monetary price, just to be there. 0.96

00:29:19.780 And now the Jewish religious rulers of that day are like a Chuck E. Cheese, but with a currency 1.00

00:29:26.340 exchange that's going to rip them off. Instead of a dollar giving you four tokens to play the games, 1.00

00:29:31.840 it's only going to give you one. They're saying your Gentile money's no good here.

00:29:36.660 You have to exchange it for the temple currency. And they ramp up the rates to where they're

00:29:44.220 getting robbed blind. Jesus is not putting gentleness to the side. Jesus is embodying

00:29:50.740 perfect gentleness as a fruit of the Spirit. He's being gentle to the people who are being destroyed.

00:29:59.800 Americans are being destroyed by our elite class. They are being destroyed by a flood of third 1.00

00:30:08.180 worlders into our nation who take from our we are not a tax farm we're not an economic zone 1.00

00:30:16.240 this is not merely a set of propositions it is a particular people in a particular place

00:30:22.660 we love christians we love americans and we want to defend them and the language and the rhetoric

00:30:31.100 of Mr. Rogers over the last 70 years has not done anything to hold back or to stem the tide of

00:30:40.120 perversion and progressive politics and culture that is steamrolled into our country, into our

00:30:47.120 churches, and even into some, many of our homes. So this is not us being mean. This is us being

00:30:54.920 faithful. We will not tolerate it any longer. Enough is enough. No more gay Bibles. No more

00:31:02.940 gay Bibles. No more of this bull crap. We're done. We love Christ. We love his people. And we love 1.00

00:31:10.920 our country. And we make no apology. You want nice? Tune into the Gospel Coalition. Tune into

00:31:17.860 Christianity Today. Go follow Beth Moore. Go follow Russell Moore. Go follow Preston Sprinkle.

00:31:24.160 This is not the channel for nice.

00:31:26.820 This is the channel for love, the love of Christ that includes welcoming in little children

00:31:33.400 so that he might bless them and fashioning a whip of cords when his people are being

00:31:39.400 oppressed.

00:31:40.400 So go touch grass, log off.

00:31:42.860 Here's our first commercial.

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00:32:47.620 the danger of centralized power is often represented by the word king as americans we

00:32:54.160 hate the word king civilian ownership of body armor is about helping people to have increased

00:33:01.180 power to resist tyrants and criminals and so armored republic is about helping you to preserve

00:33:08.540 your god-given rights to the honor of the lord jesus christ because he is the king of kings

00:33:13.500 and he governs kings and he will judge them.

00:33:17.200 This is armored republic, and in a republic, there is no king but Christ.

00:33:23.180 We are free craftsmen, and we are honored to be your armor spread of choice.

00:33:42.340 We're so back.

00:33:43.500 Here we are. We've got Dr. Jared Moore. Jared, let me know if you can hear me. If so,

00:33:48.620 welcome to the show. Yeah, I can hear you. All right. Here he is. The man, the myth,

00:33:54.280 the legend, just destroying anyone with a bad view of concupiscence. Jared, is it cool? Let's

00:34:00.300 just go right off the bat. Is it cool if I don't sleep with dudes, but you know, in my heart,

00:34:04.720 I sometimes want to, but only for a few seconds. Yeah. If it's under a second,

00:34:09.620 then doug wilson says it's not a sin all right just get your stopwatch out and uh and you'll be

00:34:18.020 all right just keep it keep it quick um okay we are super glad uh and and honored to have you um

00:34:23.940 you and i have interacted some offline um you know we have some a lot of the same uh friend group and

00:34:30.240 other ministers and pastors and politicians and guys who are um stand-up christian guys

00:34:34.500 but i think i've had you on the show once before is that right jared yeah that's right

00:34:40.180 Okay.

00:34:40.900 So we've, by the grace of God, we've come a long way.

00:34:42.860 I think since then, each year we keep growing.

00:34:46.100 God keeps blessing this ministry.

00:34:47.340 And so we're glad to have you again.

00:34:49.000 I don't know if you were watching on standby as we were kind of outlining this episode,

00:34:52.540 but we played one of the clips from Preston Sprinkle where he's plugging, you know,

00:34:57.520 and promoting the Upside Down Kingdom Bible and talking about how it's countercultural.

00:35:03.440 And I said, yeah, like counterculture to the high watermark of Christendom in England in the 1700s, perhaps it would have been countercultural.

00:35:12.000 But I think it's actually, he should just say, there's nothing counter to it.

00:35:18.080 It's just right along with the culture.

00:35:20.420 And are we experiencing some winds of change right now?

00:35:24.180 Yes.

00:35:24.800 And praise God for the executive orders from President Trump. 0.96

00:35:27.640 I'm so glad that he was elected and not Kamala.

00:35:30.660 but I was just saying that I want to be, you know, I want to be consistent and faithful and say,

00:35:34.800 I am so grateful for Trump. He has my prayers. He has my support. But the RNC was super duper gay.

00:35:44.760 So when you say counter-cultural, we just have to admit that the GOP today is gay and the Democrat 0.99

00:35:50.380 party is super gay. And so a gay Bible doesn't seem that counter-cultural to me. What do you 0.98

00:35:58.780 think yeah i think you're right um preston's just going right along with the culture i mean this

00:36:07.560 there's no christian in church history that would affirm this bible as orthodox

00:36:14.600 i mean he in i mean 20 years ago these things would be considered heretical

00:36:22.600 and um so i mean he argues so many crazy things in this bible and he does it with just it's just

00:36:32.520 naked assertions he he's not he doesn't exegete the text this so-called study bible the whole

00:36:39.760 point is to have conclusions and then try to go find scripture to fit it and that's what they've

00:36:46.420 done so help us get into the meat a little bit i i assume that you've because didn't you you did a

00:36:52.260 debate, I think, a while back with Preston Sprinkle. You've kind of been on his trail for a

00:36:58.620 while, noticing all the things that he's kind of hijacking and trying to seep into the church.

00:37:06.080 And so I assume that you've probably read some actual text, or at least some of the commentaries

00:37:10.660 and the footnotes from this new study Bible. I feel like every time I say the word Bible,

00:37:15.360 I don't want to be struck by lightning, calling this the Word of God. So I keep doing... For

00:37:19.880 For our listeners on Apple or Spotify, just so you know, I'm often doing the finger quotes.

00:37:26.420 But anyways, my point is I'm sure that you're probably pretty familiar with it.

00:37:30.440 Are there any examples that you could provide for our listeners?

00:37:34.960 Yeah, yeah, give me a second.

00:37:36.640 I'll give you some of them.

00:37:38.620 Like some of the things that really frustrated you.

00:37:40.920 yeah he he says about sodom and gomorrah that it wasn't about um homosexuality and that it's a text

00:37:51.100 that should not be used uh to come against homosexuality um you know he quotes go ahead 0.84

00:37:59.880 i'm sorry yeah so let me read you a quote from it it would be hypocritical for straight christians 0.78

00:38:06.260 to condemn gay people by citing the story of Sodom.

00:38:10.000 Does the Bible prohibit same-sex relationships? 0.60

00:38:12.900 Yes.

00:38:13.620 But there are other passages that speak to this.

00:38:15.820 It is misguided to use Genesis 19 as a weapon to condemn gay people

00:38:19.720 for experiencing an attraction to the same sex. 0.86

00:38:23.000 According to Ezekiel, arrogant people who don't care for the poor 0.93

00:38:26.300 are the real Sodomites. 0.89

00:38:31.060 Actually.

00:38:32.560 Yeah.

00:38:33.120 Ezekiel does.

00:38:33.940 it says for this was the sin of sodom i'm i'm familiar i'm a pastor i've preached through the

00:38:39.240 bible um and then it talks about like basically withholding charity and generosity and then also

00:38:44.780 pride pride is also um so it's arrogance and a lack of charity that's true um but ezekiel never

00:38:52.200 says and that's the definition of sodomy so there's there's it's just multivariant there's

00:38:57.620 you know sodom had sodomy going on well how do you know um it's a descriptive text uh-huh but

00:39:03.160 in the description, all the men of the city are saying, Hey, could you, could you send those male 1.00

00:39:09.520 angels outside of your house so that we can have sex with them? Right. So not, not just so that we 1.00

00:39:14.580 can withhold our alms and offerings and charitable gifts from them, or so that we can, you know,

00:39:20.000 make snobbish remarks and, and be arrogant towards them. No, it's, um, you've got angels in your

00:39:25.440 house. They're pretty good looking. They're also male. We'd like to, uh, we'd like to lie down

00:39:31.160 with them. So Sodom was marked by sodomy. Was it also marked by pride and a lack of charity? 0.81

00:39:40.660 Yeah, because birds of a feather flock together, sins, there's a progression to sin. And I think

00:39:45.760 there's a pretty safe biblical theology that could be molded and saying, the tree, if the roots are

00:39:53.140 bad, the fruits are bad, and you can't just designate, we have one branch that'll have bad

00:39:57.920 fruit and all the rest will be really healthy. Yeah. People who have embraced high degrees of

00:40:03.460 sexual perversion also are probably not very charitable and probably not very humble. We see

00:40:10.300 that today all the time, right? All the time. You see all the different political lobbying groups

00:40:15.800 for LGBT rights. And also turns out that the least sodomite friendly, you know, state in the 0.93

00:40:24.460 whole union, those backwoods, you know, traditional Bible thumpers of Oklahoma and Kansas would be 0.99

00:40:30.660 another example, are literally statistically the most generous, you know, giving to nonprofits, 0.94

00:40:35.880 501c3s, churches. So both are true. Ezekiel's right. Sodom was not a very generous place or

00:40:43.120 a humble place. Well, the badge of Sodom now is pride. Exactly, pride. Yeah, so it wasn't a 0.57

00:40:48.760 generous place. It wasn't a humble place. It also was a sexually perverse place. All of that is

00:40:54.440 true back to you jared what do you think yeah that that's 100 right um it's interesting the

00:41:01.060 very next verse in ezekiel so it says that god condemned him for an abomination as well so even

00:41:09.540 in ezekiel he mentions that sodom was condemned for an abomination it's the same word used for

00:41:16.260 men lying with men um and then jude is explicit as well for the strange flesh that they went 0.63

00:41:24.040 after um that it is it was a homosexual sin a perversion um and it's interesting because

00:41:32.580 sprinkle sprinkle is not logically or biblically consistent in anything he writes so in this study

00:41:41.340 um he'll talk about how um he'll talk about for example in the song of solomon he talks about how

00:41:52.640 The Song of Solomon, according to ancient Near Eastern genre, the particular genre that it is, everybody would understand that it's talking about the relationship between a husband and a wife.

00:42:05.060 And he says that, and then later on, as the man describes the woman, he goes from her head, describing her eyes and her facial features, her hair, and then he describes her neck.

00:42:17.840 he gets down he talks about her breasts and then sprinkle argues that a single man looking at you

00:42:26.560 know being enamored by a woman's beauty and after talking about her breasts that that that's not sin

00:42:36.260 and um he does this numerously like he when he's talking about Romans 1 when he's talking about

00:42:43.460 um when he's talking about sodom he he explicitly says god's not condemning same-sex attraction here

00:42:51.700 and so what he's doing is it's just a sleight of hand a turn of phrase he he's created this

00:42:58.000 category and this is the whole so-called gay christian movement they create a category that

00:43:03.580 isn't does not exist in church history it does not exist in the bible but it's this pre-lust

00:43:11.560 inclination or desire or orientation that is either neutral or not sin and that's essentially

00:43:21.320 what pelagians argued um you can go back and read augustine writing to um julian the pelagian

00:43:29.180 and he he's pointing this out like if something is luring and enticing you from within

00:43:35.420 and if it would be a sin to act on it then it is already sin like it's it can't produce

00:43:43.960 something contrary to its nature if you argue that it's neutral

00:43:47.320 then how does it all of a sudden produce sin right like right so well it just doesn't accord

00:43:57.000 with the book of james that desire eventually you know gives birth conceives and gives birth

00:44:03.300 to sin and then sin when fully grown brings forth death there's a there is a progression to sin

00:44:08.180 uh nobody just wakes up in the morning with a perfect you know pure spotless record and decides

00:44:13.960 to become a serial killer right that there is a progression to sin all sin um lying um you start

00:44:21.920 with small uh discrepancies and exaggerations and flattery and gossip that eventually you know

00:44:30.140 snowballs into slander and becomes larger deceptions and these so at every level whether

00:44:35.960 it's sins of the tongue or whether it's sins of the flesh especially sins of the flesh there is

00:44:43.020 a progression i'll never forget i'm gonna if you're a parent go ahead and uh and maybe if

00:44:49.640 you're with uh your children go ahead and log off for just a second or or take the volume down but

00:44:54.560 i think it's worth sharing because it just it marked me as a young man i remember uh serving

00:44:59.580 tables when i was in college and you know i i think it was a law of every restaurant in the

00:45:06.500 world that at least half of the wait staff has to be you know gay and um if they speak english 0.67

00:45:11.520 only the english if they speak yeah that's right half has to be mexican the other half has to be 0.95

00:45:15.360 gay which i i appreciate the mexican half um you know much more than the the gay white half but um 0.86

00:45:21.560 i i remember talking to one of the servers and um and they were just constantly making crude 0.96

00:45:27.960 homosexual jokes with each other. And they would always try to do it around me and try to involve 0.53

00:45:32.480 me in their course joking. And I remember asking him one time, I said, like, how did you become

00:45:41.860 gay? And this is back in the day. So this is before the rhetoric had really become universal 0.55

00:45:46.800 of like, well, you don't become gay. It's not a choice. I was born this way. This is back before

00:45:51.160 they knew that they needed to hedge that bet. This is back when you got the gays being honest, 1.00

00:45:57.580 which I, you know, I appreciate it. And, and so he just shot me straight. He was like, oh no,

00:46:01.500 I wasn't born like this. I wasn't born, you know, it's not like I was, you know, I was just as a

00:46:05.160 young boy, I was, you know, wearing dresses and more interested in dolls than I was with, you

00:46:09.960 know, bows and arrows. And, um, none of that, not that, that rhetoric hadn't seeped in yet. He said,

00:46:14.840 um, he just looked at me plainly. He said, I've had sex with over a thousand women. And at a 0.92

00:46:21.180 certain point, um, it just doesn't do it anymore. Nobody knows how to please a man like a man. 0.89

00:46:27.580 and i was like oh right it's just you're you're perverse it was a progression of perversion they 0.95

00:46:34.240 got worse and worse and worse and worse with sin unchecked that's sodomy that's how you get there 0.64

00:46:40.740 and that made a lot of sense it would grossed me out you know but it made a lot of a lot of sense 0.85

00:46:46.820 and um yeah so i with all these things sin i think catholics are actually you correct me if i'm wrong

00:46:54.280 jared but catholics are pretty good on the doctrine of concupiscence that sin begins it has

00:46:59.320 a beginning it has an in vitro stage in the heart before it's ever even brought out in speech or

00:47:06.120 actions isn't that is that right they they are good in that sense that they believe in concupiscence

00:47:13.800 um where they are bad is that they believe that it so so church history always argued that

00:47:21.240 that original sin is morally culpable sin, and its motions are morally culpable sin.

00:47:26.960 The Roman Catholics argued that you had to be baptized to take that guilt away,

00:47:32.080 and they argued this ex operae operato, which just means to the thing conferred.

00:47:39.400 So they, in other words, you know, you read the Council of Trent in the 1500s,

00:47:43.960 and they believed that the priestly order could essentially give you grace.

00:47:47.080 It didn't matter if you had faith or not.

00:47:49.660 And so by them baptizing a baby, they were actually taking, the priestly order was taking that guilt away.

00:47:56.040 And so that baby no longer had the guilt of concupiscence.

00:47:59.580 Now, when that concupiscence moved and they submitted to it, then they began to sin again.

00:48:06.520 But what Preston Sprinkle was arguing is that, no, you don't need Jesus to die for your concupiscence,

00:48:14.800 or let's just say for same-sex attraction, because it's not sin.

00:48:20.640 So he's arguing he's to the left of Rome.

00:48:24.840 He's to the left of Protestantism.

00:48:27.340 I mean, at least Rome was arguing that Jesus had to be applied to the infant

00:48:34.960 in order to take the guilt away.

00:48:38.260 Where the Protestants and Rome disagreed in the 1500s on the doctrine of sin

00:48:42.380 was that they were saying the guilt is taken away through the priestly order

00:48:47.480 applying the work of Christ to the infant.

00:48:50.540 But the Protestants were saying that the sin remains in the individual.

00:48:55.720 It's just credited to Christ.

00:48:58.140 And so the issue was that Rome was saying sin changes in the baptized,

00:49:02.800 and Protestants were saying, no, it doesn't.

00:49:05.320 And so you see this in the Westminster, the Second London, Canons of Doors, Belgic.

00:49:11.400 But both Protestants and Catholics were recognizing original sin, that it starts from conception.

00:49:19.220 In sin did my mother conceive me.

00:49:21.300 In iniquity, I was brought forth.

00:49:22.700 And they were recognizing it from conception and recognizing it at the level of the heart, at the level of desire.

00:49:29.680 But these modern revoice—is Preston, is he or was he at some point teamed up with revoice?

00:49:36.680 It sounds like he probably—

00:49:38.500 Yeah, he was a board member.

00:49:39.580 okay all right there you go well i was gonna say something that makes him so effective preston

00:49:45.280 sprinkle the reason we're talking about him for one he's influential his podcast theology in the

00:49:49.420 raw has millions of listeners annually but he manages to do and jared i want to hear from you

00:49:54.680 on the sleight of hand here he really does a good job of kind of maintaining his orthodox

00:49:58.960 card so to speak so he'll have uh francis chan he'll have russell moore he'll have

00:50:04.400 Gavin Ortlund on his podcast. He's had Nancy Piercy. So he'll have a lot of guys. And of

00:50:09.280 course, we all here would know that those guys don't pass the sniff test. But he'll have a lot

00:50:13.160 of guys that would be theologically conservative, quote unquote, especially 10 years ago. And so he

00:50:18.440 can slide under the radar. And a lot of people think, like, okay, Preston's maybe a little more

00:50:25.120 lax on this issue, or a little bit more forgiving, or doesn't go as far as so and so. But he's still

00:50:30.200 orthodox and i feel like that's what's really maintaining his grip his hold the popularity of

00:50:34.960 his books is he manages to pretend like a wolf in sheep's clothing no no i'm part of the flock just

00:50:40.500 like you we have a clip we're going to play in a little bit here about like pronouns where he where

00:50:44.260 he's he's soft on it but i feel like that's really what contributes to the influence of course his

00:50:49.600 soft-spokenness as well does that ring true for you and what you've seen out of him oh yeah and

00:50:54.780 and he's a nice guy i mean that's really what it boils down he's in the kind of the killer

00:50:59.820 nice guy and you know people love their nice guys you know let let me just let me read some

00:51:07.900 quotes here from press that's why people love me joe i just gotta get some highlights in your hair

00:51:14.320 and you'll be set what'd you say joe people people wouldn't like the prophets brother or jesus or the

00:51:20.780 apostles like i mean that's the thing nobody's prophetic anymore unless they're preaching against

00:51:26.220 um sins that the culture believes are sins and um god uses the prophet to raise the dead like

00:51:33.460 i mean we we have to turn the page and preach the text with the tone that is in the text and

00:51:39.560 the heinousness of sin your tone should reflect that and um so so anyways i you know i appreciate

00:51:47.520 you, brother. Let me read you some quotes here. So these are things that Preston has written in

00:51:55.420 his writing, you know, and says, I'm actually pro-gay. I'm pro-gay in the sense that I'm for

00:52:00.340 gay people and I want God's best for them and believe they can fully follow and honor God while

00:52:04.940 being gay. Same-sex attraction includes a virtuous desire to be intimate in the David and Jonathan 0.88

00:52:11.940 or Jesus and John's sense of the phrase

00:52:14.740 with people of the same sex.

00:52:17.400 That right there is a blasphemy. 1.00

00:52:19.040 That's just pure blasphemy.

00:52:21.540 To claim that there's a good element 0.99

00:52:23.800 of same-sex attraction,

00:52:25.860 and that element is what Jesus and John experienced

00:52:31.300 or had towards each other.

00:52:34.560 That's just pure blasphemy right there.

00:52:37.380 That's from a paper he wrote

00:52:38.540 at the Evangelical Geological Society.

00:52:40.360 So for the listener, real quick,

00:52:41.540 if I can interject, if anybody's wondering, why are you guys being so hard on Preston Sprinkle?

00:52:44.920 It doesn't sound very Christ-like. It doesn't sound like you're being loving. Preston Sprinkle

00:52:48.640 is saying that Jesus is gay, that in his heart, that Jesus had a same-sex kind of

00:52:58.720 under-the-veil relationship with the Apostle John. Yeah, so we just, we're not very nice

00:53:07.520 with people who call Jesus gay. 0.57

00:53:09.760 And there's a Mott and Bailey technique going on

00:53:11.800 because I read some of his defenses.

00:53:13.380 I think it was Rosaria Butterfield

00:53:14.500 that she spoke at some type of convocation

00:53:16.780 and she was calling him to account 0.99

00:53:18.400 for his lies and his ridiculousness. 0.98

00:53:20.580 So he would say something like, 0.98

00:53:21.780 Jared, just read.

00:53:23.040 And you would respond like we would.

00:53:24.720 But the Mott and Bailey technique

00:53:25.840 is you say something

00:53:26.740 that you know can be misinterpreted

00:53:28.480 and then when pushed and challenged,

00:53:30.340 like imagine he watched this and responded.

00:53:32.140 What he would say is,

00:53:33.060 no, no, no, I'm just talking about

00:53:34.380 the desire for friendship,

00:53:35.500 that the friendship that men long for that's what's good well why did you attach it to gay

00:53:41.160 but they'll run this play again and again no no no what i really meant was like he said uh in a

00:53:46.440 paper or a guide the church will look more like jesus when it has more trans people and if you

00:53:51.840 asked him like that should 50 of the church be trans this set or the other he would just retreat 0.65

00:53:56.260 and say well no no i'm just talking about people with this medical condition blah blah blah and

00:54:00.620 You have to know the play.

00:54:02.660 Ma and Bailey, make some wild assertion like that.

00:54:05.940 And then when challenged, retreat, don't let them.

00:54:08.360 Say, no, no, no, you claimed this. 0.97

00:54:10.580 You attached that label, gay, to David and to Jonathan and this.

00:54:15.080 What exactly did you mean? 1.00

00:54:17.520 That's good.

00:54:18.580 Hey, Jared, is it okay if we play this clip and then we'll let you get the first response to it?

00:54:23.840 Sure.

00:54:24.840 Let's go ahead and sync it up, Nathan.

00:54:26.700 You ready?

00:54:28.260 Preferred pronouns for trans people.

00:54:30.620 there are good people on both sides of this debate some of my friends will say no i won't use

00:54:39.980 pronouns that don't match somebody's biological sex and their big thing is you know i feel like

00:54:46.700 i'm lying to them if a female wants to be called he him and i agree and i do that i call this female

00:54:54.060 he him that I feel like I'm lying to them I don't think it's necessarily lying

00:55:00.780 the other viewpoint is what a friend of mine Greg Coles has called pronoun

00:55:05.160 hospitality like could we whether we agree or disagree with their pronoun

00:55:10.440 use can we meet them where they're at can we be hospitable even in disagreement

00:55:15.680 and use their pronouns and that's the view that I would recommend I do think

00:55:20.400 language is flexible so you know if there's a person A over here so I'll be

00:55:26.300 person A over here and and I believe pronouns should match your biological

00:55:29.580 sex and that's true I think that's right but person B over here thinks that

00:55:35.320 pronouns should match your gender identity not your biological sex but

00:55:39.840 your internal sense of who you are your personal identity now I can disagree

00:55:44.820 with all of that.

00:55:46.800 But language is shared social space.

00:55:49.640 So when I use language, I'm reflecting my worldview.

00:55:52.720 When this person uses language,

00:55:54.780 it's reflecting their worldview.

00:55:56.940 Am I gonna require that wherever I go,

00:55:59.860 people must use the language that reflects my worldview?

00:56:03.920 No, I'm not.

00:56:06.780 What do you think, Jared?

00:56:07.620 Cut it off there just because he blathers on

00:56:08.940 for two more minutes.

00:56:09.820 So there's more, but I spared you the listener.

00:56:11.740 What do you think, Jared?

00:56:14.820 I think the command is to love God and your neighbor and you love God first.

00:56:21.380 You know, and Preston sounds like he's worried about offending people and and not it's the thing is, it's not about needlessly offending people.

00:56:30.220 It's about whether or not God made the person male or female.

00:56:36.580 Preston says he believes that, but then he's going to say the opposite of that. 0.98

00:56:41.940 Now, I think his friends are right.

00:56:44.160 he's a liar yeah all right uh wes you outlined the episode where do you think we should go next 0.73

00:56:53.560 i want to talk about like jared just put his finger on the niceness and the soft spokenness 0.99

00:57:01.040 maybe we'll go to our last commercial break but when we come back um it fools so many people and

00:57:05.540 to be honest it fools women a lot women really enjoy that type of the soft spoken the soft

00:57:11.680 peddling you you'll see like well there's very fine people on both sides kind of what about

00:57:16.580 the way he started that i was thinking about the trump hoax you know the very fine people on both

00:57:21.220 sides so we'll go to our last commercial break and we come back jared would love to get your

00:57:24.460 thoughts on how it appeals to people but how to combat it all right the clock is running out you

00:57:29.520 need to go and register now for our christ is king how to defeat trash world conference it's

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00:59:28.420 www.reformed.money and book an introductory overview right now. All of Christ for all of life

00:59:37.880 and all of finance for Christendom. All right, welcome back to the last segment. We have Dr.

00:59:44.520 Jared Moore joining us to talk about the Zondervan Upside Down Kingdom Study Bible, to talk about

00:59:49.420 Preston Sprinkle. If you guys have questions for Dr. Moore, go ahead and put them in the chat.

00:59:53.240 We'll try to get to them as we finish up our content here. Dr. Moore, right before the break,

00:59:57.280 I just said, you know, one of the things, you know, his orthodoxy card, his PhD, his credentials,

01:00:02.920 all of that. He's also, Preston Sprinkle, just a really soft-spoken guy. And I mentioned,

01:00:07.960 and some of the women are noting it in the chat, that women can be especially, not every single

01:00:12.140 women, it can really appeal to them. Women really like, or at least want to like, that soft-spoken

01:00:21.100 approach that isn't dogmatic, that doesn't have a serrated edge, that doesn't say hard truths.

01:00:26.120 And I mean, I would have to guess his listeners, for the most part, I've even seen the stats,

01:00:30.440 look at his followers on social media. It would be a good amount of women and women of both genders,

01:00:37.320 women adjacent uh how how does that appeal and then just not how does it how is it that that

01:00:43.720 captures so many people that they soak it up but how do we then uh say no and you need to stop being 0.51

01:00:50.520 duped by that um the easiest thing is to get it to where it's something they hate like if

01:00:59.640 preston was arguing the same thing about racism there's this vitriol toward racism that it doesn't

01:01:06.900 matter how soft-spoken you are right like if you're being racist in your rhetoric and so you

01:01:13.820 have to expose and so anybody who's duped by press and sprinkle it's because they don't hate 0.55

01:01:20.420 homosexual sin enough yeah that's a good point that's the issue like it's become so um

01:01:29.960 you know it's viewed as a as a victimless sin i guess you could say and so um and basically it's

01:01:39.460 just it's all empty rhetoric it's anthropology priston sprinkle is basically an anthropologist

01:01:45.320 masquerading as a theologian um he asked people how they feel and then he literally

01:01:51.640 finds and and defines entire doctrines entire categories that aren't in scripture

01:02:00.260 Oh, there's this pre-lust category.

01:02:02.880 Gregory Coles does this too, who's kind of his right-hand man.

01:02:06.780 And they have this creation.

01:02:11.140 But if you started saying, well, the inclination towards racism, that's not sin.

01:02:15.620 Or if you start saying, well, the inclination towards children is not sin.

01:02:20.100 Well, then people start getting alarmed and say, of course it's sin. 0.99

01:02:23.620 Well, then why not the inclination toward the same sex, right? 1.00

01:02:29.420 or the trans stuff, or it's all morally culpable sin, and Christ is the only remedy. And that's 0.98

01:02:37.300 what's so sinister about what Sprinkle is doing. He is sending people running to the mirror to

01:02:43.140 self-justify instead of running to Christ. He's also leaving Christians ensnared in their sin, 0.92

01:02:50.200 teaching them that they will never. He's teaching that there's male, female, and then there are 0.97

01:02:56.960 homosexuals and then there are trans people like like there's four different sexes is what he's

01:03:03.460 teaching it's an ontological reality that these people are um you know and that these people are

01:03:11.740 something other than just male or female because otherwise if they're just male or female then they

01:03:16.880 can repent and christ can transform them according to how he has designed them that's not what he

01:03:22.120 teaches. He teaches his hearers that if they're gay, they're going to be gay. And so they need 0.99

01:03:29.320 to make the best of it. And how do you make the best of it? Well, you need to take the good

01:03:33.220 elements, like what that Jesus and John desire, you need to take those good elements and sanctify

01:03:38.600 those. And the sexual desire, well, it's not sin, but just don't act on it. And he argues,

01:03:45.320 He's so Pelagian that he argues this about, you know, if I was enamored at another woman, even her breasts, and I'm married, and let's say she's married, that that would not be sin.

01:03:59.520 Like, that's a pre-lust desire.

01:04:01.560 I'm just noticing beauty.

01:04:04.040 The problem is, when you look at Genesis 2, there was only one woman pulled from Adam's side, and she only came from one man's side.

01:04:12.360 And that is the definition of marriage.

01:04:15.260 And so his desire was to be for her and her desire was to be for him.

01:04:18.760 We're not supposed to be sexually attracted to people we're not married to.

01:04:22.820 And the only reason we are is because of sin.

01:04:25.240 It's not noticing beauty. 0.62

01:04:27.760 I mean, Paul picks this up in 1 Timothy 5.2 and says that we're to view older women as mothers and younger women as sisters in all purity.

01:04:36.460 And so if we would take responsibility for that from the root, you wouldn't have any ministers failing morally.

01:04:43.280 You wouldn't have, you know, we have to redeem.

01:04:48.700 We've got to return back to what the church has always taught concerning these things, because there's a lot of men ensnared in sexual sin.

01:04:56.660 I saw Dusty Devers. He is trying to ban pornography. That's wonderful. That would be awesome.

01:05:03.580 Like we need to ban it because it's wrecked marriages, wrecked men and women and young people. 0.83

01:05:10.500 We've sold future generations down the road, messed them up sexually because of how they've been exposed to that stuff so early on.

01:05:20.060 But but anyways, I'm kind of rambling.

01:05:22.060 But but what what Preston is lacking is the definition of sin and the fact that Jesus Christ can actually transform people.

01:05:34.780 He can actually transform sinners.

01:05:36.520 So, listener, if you are having same-sex inclinations in the power of the Holy Spirit, if you're a Christian, you can mortify that.

01:05:46.040 That's not who you are.

01:05:48.220 You are not a homosexual. 0.97

01:05:50.720 Even that language, that rhetoric is baloney.

01:05:54.700 You're male or female, and entailed in God's design of you is the pursuit of opposite-sex marriage unless you have the gift of singleness.

01:06:02.100 But if you're running around talking about your sexual orientation all the time, you're not you don't have the gift of singleness. 0.91

01:06:11.080 Well said. All right. We've got a couple of questions in the chat. I'm going to throw them out there for you, Jared. 0.93

01:06:15.980 Here's one that I thought was helpful. This is from Statistics Man 24.

01:06:22.180 Since no marriage or children since there's no marriage or children in heaven, what do you think will be different between men and women in the eternal state?

01:06:32.100 like roles etc that's a good question i think i think the roles will stay the same

01:06:38.580 um i think it'll look like helpmate and spouse i just think that there won't be

01:06:44.820 a sexual relationship um i think there will be kings you know and there there may be queens

01:06:54.260 but there won't be marriage um and there'll be a hierarchy i mean it'll be very much similar to

01:07:01.620 this earth it'll be very much similar to what the garden would have been um but uh you know

01:07:08.540 in answering the question there one there is marriage in heaven it's just everybody's married

01:07:12.960 to jesus marriage is fulfilled what's not fulfilled in heaven is singleness there is no

01:07:18.740 end to go for singleness as a matter of fact that singleness i would argue in paul's mind is that

01:07:25.040 he's married to christ um that he's already he's already living that out while he's on earth

01:07:31.640 is why he's rejecting the physical marriage um he doesn't have that desire so he wants to

01:07:37.560 i mean the language is devoted to the lord right and uh that's what we need to emphasize because

01:07:43.380 you you a lot of people like christian sprinkle they in the gospel coalition they they have

01:07:48.140 exalted singleness to this grandiose state they make the argument well jesus in the end we're all

01:07:54.120 single, and that's just not true. No, we're all married to Christ. So the language in the

01:08:01.980 Septuagint concerning Eve being taken from Adam, from his side, it's rib in the Hebrew, but when

01:08:10.240 the Septuagint translated, it translated side, and the Apostle John picks that language up when he's

01:08:15.660 describing Jesus' side being pierced with the spear, and the blood and the water flow out,

01:08:21.060 which are two essential elements of life and the picture is that of the church being born from

01:08:27.100 Jesus's bloody son similar to Eve being from as a bride yeah I like that I think another interesting

01:08:35.420 angle and this is a little bit speculative but marriage was given partially for the the roles 0.75

01:08:44.280 where a woman would be a help meet to a man but even preceding that it was the command to be

01:08:49.520 fruitful and multiply. And so we've talked a lot on the podcast about how God's original desire

01:08:56.760 was for structure and order and tending and caretaking and stewardship of the earth and

01:09:03.240 producing out of it. Well, in heaven, there's seemingly no need to be fruitful and multiply

01:09:09.100 anymore. That's the missing ingredient. It's not the need to still, you know, in the new earth,

01:09:15.360 which will be our permanent home.

01:09:17.560 I agree with you, Dr. Moore.

01:09:19.180 I think there will be hierarchy and structure

01:09:21.180 and tasks to do,

01:09:23.180 but the being fruitful and multiplying

01:09:25.860 will no longer seemingly be part of the equation.

01:09:29.100 And so in that sense,

01:09:30.480 the sexual element of marriage would not be necessary

01:09:33.240 because sexual relations primarily,

01:09:36.520 and at their core, they do many things,

01:09:38.080 but at their core are for reproduction.

01:09:40.220 And that being unnecessary in heaven

01:09:42.900 would remove uh what we largely associate earthly marriage um with so that's but but that's not to 0.89

01:09:51.520 diminish the hierarchy and role and potentially pairing up of a man and a woman for stewardship

01:09:58.460 and helping and leading and things like that i don't know i feel like my children will still be

01:10:03.020 in a sense my children in eternity my wife although maybe won't share the same home

01:10:07.500 there won't be headship because we'll live with god and see him but like my wife will still be

01:10:11.860 my wife, and I'll have, I would think, more interaction, like it's this body that's going

01:10:15.480 to be raised, more interaction with her than other sisters in Christ. Same thing with my children.

01:10:20.580 It would be them at my home eating meal on a Friday night. We don't know what the heavenly

01:10:24.880 state will look like, and even though they wouldn't necessarily be under my headship in my home as a

01:10:29.040 father, even though my wife wouldn't be under my headship as a wife, I think those people will

01:10:33.980 still recognize there was a closeness and intimacy and a nearness. We did this during our time on

01:10:38.860 earth and even now in the internal state when we're freed from the headship the authority living

01:10:44.360 in the same home all those different things there still will be i think a special place in my heart

01:10:49.120 for my children and they will be my male children and my female children i will still be have been

01:10:54.760 my wife's husband she will still have been my wife even though the roles like you said dr moore

01:10:59.220 we don't know what those look like we will judge angels but there's still part of that i think that

01:11:03.880 will continue well everybody who listens to the show jared they know that uh i don't speculate

01:11:11.360 about sexes of people in the eternal state i i'm strictly uh reserve that kind of speculation when

01:11:21.100 it comes to the sexes of angels that's that's my gig that's what i do so i don't know if you've

01:11:26.220 ever watched those episodes where i hypothesize about whether or not all angels are male uh that

01:11:32.280 definitely upset a few folks but i think lots of good thoughts i appreciate it here's another

01:11:36.380 question for you jared uh somebody in the chat said uh this is t james boone dr moore are you

01:11:42.540 open to running again someday maybe not this year but in the future for sbc president

01:11:47.840 i'm definitely open to it uh but i'll tell you it's a rough go

01:11:53.660 can you share some of your experience what was that like just the interviews and the uh 1.00

01:12:01.760 the nastiness of Christians intentionally misrepresenting what you've said or what you 0.69

01:12:10.060 believe, which has happened every time I've ever run. I was second VP of the SBC a little over 1.00

01:12:18.260 10 years ago. And even then, folks were writing articles that just, it's just bold-faced line,

01:12:26.140 you know fellow fellow pastors and um that so it's a rough go and and um this this pastime was

01:12:35.160 particularly interesting because they we were pushed i was trying to push for a debate a public

01:12:40.460 debate and um we got close to that and so preparing for all those um was difficult but

01:12:48.480 yeah i would definitely be willing to do that again because you know listener if you if you

01:12:55.240 don't know whoever the sbc president is controls the future of the sbc because they appoint the

01:13:02.580 committee that appoints the committee that chooses all the trustees at sbc entities and so if you get

01:13:09.040 a hillbilly like me to be sbc president for 10 years you're going to have hillbillies on all

01:13:14.900 the committees i mean you could you know what i'm saying you could you could the sbc could

01:13:21.320 actually be reformed all you have to do is show up to the convention that's it like show up two

01:13:26.960 days out of the year and vote and you can have the most right-wing christian and the sbc will

01:13:33.600 literally be i mean to the far right if that's if that's what if you get if the far right folks come

01:13:40.600 and vote at the convention that's exactly what the sbc will be yep i love it dave smolt god

01:13:48.980 wills it take it back amen yep all right next question here this is a good one because uh you'll

01:13:54.140 see a lot of guys do this this is from ben ben wooding what is the connection between the emphasis

01:13:59.620 of the office of king for example king jesus and he thinks it's to the detriment of priest and

01:14:07.280 prophets you'll hear preston and those like we we're neither left nor right but we're team king

01:14:12.240 jesus they'll kind of use that language right all of christ we want king jesus over everything

01:14:16.960 but it seems there's something subversive in there. What do you think?

01:14:21.760 I'm not familiar with him using that language, but I think that he's also the prophet.

01:14:33.340 Let me give an example of him being the prophet. Whenever he's talking to the rich young ruler,

01:14:39.680 Mark's gospel tells us that the rich young ruler talks about how,

01:14:45.160 You know, I've kept all these commands from my youth, which he hadn't, of course.

01:14:48.600 But well, Mark tells us Jesus looked at him and loved him.

01:14:54.780 And then he says, go sell all that you own, give it to the poor, come follow me.

01:15:00.340 And he goes away.

01:15:02.740 So that's the exact opposite of what Sprinkle argued about pronouns, for example.

01:15:08.640 Instead of telling people the truth, which is what the prophet does, that's what Jesus does.

01:15:15.160 He says, basically blow smoke and, you know, smoke and mirrors and bait and switch. 0.62

01:15:23.280 And it really boils down to, so I believe the Bible, like when it cuts people, then

01:15:34.080 I need to preach it to where it's cutting because the gospel comes in and heals.

01:15:40.100 You know, the God who wrote it is all knowing and he knew from eternity past all my hearers

01:15:44.840 who would ever hear me preach, and he gave me a book, all I have to do is preach it and be faithful,

01:15:50.420 and God will raise the dead and sanctify his church. But if I try to get my mind in there

01:15:55.580 and try to soften it, then that does not save people. See, the Holy Spirit, God hasn't promised

01:16:02.760 to save people through empty rhetoric. He's promised to save people at the preaching of his

01:16:07.960 word and uh sprinkle does not understand that and he's making money and um you know that i mean i

01:16:17.580 think you know i don't want to if he was broke he wouldn't be arguing the things that he's arguing

01:16:24.840 he is not a martyr like here i am on the fringe the outcast doing the lord's work

01:16:33.620 all right well uh that's that's very helpful uh dr moore we really appreciate you coming on the

01:16:39.840 show are there any final thoughts you want to give us and at minimum at least uh allow the

01:16:44.980 listener to know where they could follow you and keep up with your work yeah i just want to

01:16:50.520 encourage y'all to just ask is it biblical don't ask how do i feel or do i like this

01:16:57.980 you know when you hear someone preach or teach is this true biblically that that's the number

01:17:05.060 one question um and uh i'm writing a book right now um called 33 days to freedom from lust and

01:17:14.240 you can find it on substack or patreon and um you can read it as i write it for a five dollar

01:17:21.080 subscription with patreon and then you'll get a copy of it whenever it's published but uh but i

01:17:28.120 i do believe in the power of the holy spirit that men and women can mortify the lust in their hearts

01:17:35.280 you know i don't know about y'all but growing up you know my church loved me and taught us so many

01:17:42.420 good things but one error that they taught us was that if you're a man you're gonna lust and that's

01:17:48.800 just simply not true. I don't find that in the Bible. And so in the power of the Holy Spirit,

01:17:52.860 you can conquer that sin in your heart. And so I hope to walk people through that. And I chose 33

01:17:59.300 days because the average, according to science, the least amount of time to develop a new habit

01:18:06.860 is 21 days, and the greatest is 200 and some days. Well, the average was 66 days. And so

01:18:13.400 I thought I'd do 33 days and they could do the book twice, but I'm wanting to do a second volume

01:18:18.780 later but uh but some people 33 days will be enough but the bottom line is is i'm just trying

01:18:25.440 to help you train your affections because see that that's the secret to conquering and dwelling sin

01:18:30.260 is the two great commandments love god love your neighbor the way you cultivate affection for god

01:18:36.200 is through worship through submitting to his word reading it singing his word and that it's amazing

01:18:43.660 focusing on God, focusing on your neighbor, transforms you, sanctifies you. And this is

01:18:49.980 why the devil was constantly, even through Preston Sprinkle, telling people, you constantly talk about

01:18:55.700 yourself. I mean, if you've ever run into anyone, any of these so-called gay Christians, 1.00

01:19:01.200 they talk about themselves all the time. How can you ever overcome indwelling sin 1.00

01:19:06.400 if you're talking about it all the time? Stop talking about yourself. The key to overcoming

01:19:12.360 and dwelling. Sin is talking about God and your neighbor. But anyway, I want to help people with

01:19:18.680 that. And I've written a book called The Lust of the Flesh that I think will encourage and help

01:19:23.900 folks. If you're wanting some of the things we discussed, if you're wanting a what did church

01:19:28.460 history teach on these issues and you want a layman version of that, pick up my book, The Lust

01:19:32.580 of the Flesh. And I've also got an article in the Master Seminary Journal that was published in

01:19:39.760 December of last year, and it's comparing Jesus's temptations to those who argue that same-sex

01:19:48.700 attraction is similar. And because people always quote Hebrews, right? Oh, he was tempted in every

01:19:54.160 way like us, yet without sin. I want to invite you. So, listener, I'm not going to give it away,

01:19:58.080 but go read the next verse, Hebrews 4.16. And he tells you why he wrote Hebrews 4.15.

01:20:06.020 and it's not so you can look in the mirror and say i'm like jesus

01:20:09.760 it's so that you can run to jesus in boldness because he was tempted for you yet without sin

01:20:17.020 and so i hope to help folks and encourage folks be encouraged friend because christ

01:20:22.080 raises the dead he sanctifies his church do you believe him will you submit to him

01:20:27.720 but that that's all i've got friends that folks can find me on twitter too but i appreciate you

01:20:32.900 in and y'all just keep, y'all be faithful. Don't listen to, you know, always go and say, am I

01:20:39.460 faithful? Am I faithful? Am I faithful? Because none of these guys are, none of our critics are

01:20:43.420 going to hold their hand on judgment day, right? Right. Well said. Real quick, just since you

01:20:49.880 brought it up, I want you to address it, but the, you know, Jesus being tempted and being a merciful

01:20:56.540 high priest, the temptations that Jesus experienced were external temptations. Like he's tempted,

01:21:02.300 I thought about, you know, I preached to this recently, we're going through the gospel according

01:21:06.140 to Matthew. And so we looked at like Christ and his temptation of the wilderness and he's tempted

01:21:10.640 by bread. It's 40 days of fasting, 40 days and 40 nights. He's hungry. Eating food when you're

01:21:18.220 hungry is not, there's nothing inherently sinful about that. It's an external temptation. Even,

01:21:25.740 you know, the kingdoms of the earth, when Satan shows it, Jesus did have a desire to rule the

01:21:31.000 kingdoms of the earth. He had zero desire to attain that through idolatry and worshiping Satan

01:21:37.380 instead of God. But that also, likewise, there's nothing inherently sinful about that.

01:21:44.140 If you're Christ, and you actually are king, and the nations literally are your inheritance that

01:21:49.160 God's promised to you, then there's nothing inherently sinful. And again, it's external.

01:21:52.560 It's outside of your flesh. It's not something coming from within you that contradicts God's

01:21:58.000 will, but it's something external. I'm hungry. There's bread. I've been promised the kingdoms

01:22:04.380 of this earth as my inheritance. I'm now looking at them. And I'm not tempted at all by the

01:22:10.320 shortcut avenue that Satan's offering to me. But I do desire the nations, you know, kingdoms of this

01:22:16.600 world. And then the temple, you know, that was, you know, basically a way of putting God to the

01:22:22.160 test so that, you know, miraculously it's a crowded area everybody would see and, you know, that God

01:22:27.840 would hold Christ up if he chose to, you know, to throw himself down from the temple, that

01:22:32.400 he would hover, you know, and would not strike his foot against the ground so that this crowded

01:22:36.600 place, all the foot traffic, all the people would, it would be a quick shortcut of revealing that he

01:22:41.840 really is the Son of God, that people would see his true identity. Likewise, there's nothing

01:22:46.000 inherently, if you're Jesus, inherently sinful about wanting the people to know that you truly

01:22:52.940 are the Son of God and for them to worship you because you are worthy of worship. And that's

01:22:56.940 what's right. It's also what's best for them, for that people would recognize Christ as the Son of

01:23:02.880 God and worship Him. So, all these are external temptations. Jesus was not, however, internally,

01:23:10.360 He did not have imputed sin. He didn't have original sin. He was not ever internally tempted

01:23:15.780 in terms of the three big temptations of worldliness that 1 John describes,

01:23:20.980 the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the boastful pride of life.

01:23:24.520 Jesus was never tempted towards sexual immorality.

01:23:29.040 He was never tempted towards lying.

01:23:32.360 He was never tempted because of the impeccability.

01:23:36.140 That's a doctrine that we hold it.

01:23:38.280 It's not just that Christ did not sin.

01:23:39.940 He could not sin.

01:23:40.740 He's God.

01:23:41.280 The divine nature would not allow Christ to sin.

01:23:44.540 Is there anything that, you're a better theologian than me, Jared.

01:23:47.880 Did I get that right?

01:23:49.400 Because when we talk about Jesus' temptation, I do want the listener to know,

01:23:53.120 he was tempted in such a way that he can't associate with his people as a merciful high

01:23:58.420 priest. At the same time, though, he wasn't tempted the way that we are as sinners.

01:24:04.100 Well, you're right. You're right. I mean, everything you said was right.

01:24:11.340 The difference is that we are tempted like Jesus whenever we're offered a good thing

01:24:17.800 through an evil means, like an external temptation, and we reject the evil means,

01:24:22.760 we have no desire for the evil means so you need to provide for your family and let's say you're

01:24:27.720 without work and then somebody comes and says hey sell these drugs for me and you're immediately

01:24:32.960 rejecting the evil means but you desire to provide for your family because God has designed you for

01:24:40.120 that purpose and called you to do it and that that's the thing like all the you know the devil

01:24:44.740 offered the first David, offered him laziness, sexual immorality, adultery, murder,

01:24:57.060 those things that he tempted him with.

01:24:59.280 And then with the second David, the true David, he offers food, angel protection,

01:25:05.220 and to be the king of kings.

01:25:07.960 Well said.

01:25:09.280 And so you have inherently good things.

01:25:11.140 And then in the Garden of Gethsemane, people point to that a lot.

01:25:13.840 But on the Garden of Gethsemane, I mean, what would people, you know, what would they have Jesus do?

01:25:21.380 Do they want him hopping and skipping to the cross?

01:25:23.340 Like Matthew Lee Anderson, who's a professor at Baylor and was a member of the Board of Revoice,

01:25:31.640 he would argue that Jesus desired to disobey his father in Gethsemane.

01:25:35.560 But if you look at Luke 22, 42, it says that Jesus begins his prayer with, if you are willing.

01:25:41.280 he he wants to do his father's will but he does not want to become sin he doesn't want to drink

01:25:49.400 his father's wrath um he doesn't want to suffer at the hands of lawless men he doesn't want to

01:25:56.300 die he shouldn't want to do any of those things like imagine adam who before he sinned imagine

01:26:04.400 him in his holiness saying god pour out your wrath on me right that would be inherently sinful for

01:26:10.900 him to have that desire so jesus shows us perfectly and that's something else like we're

01:26:16.180 going to correct jesus we're going to say that jesus could have had a better desire in the garden

01:26:20.000 of gethsemane a holier desire i mean it's not it's what people are willing to do to justify

01:26:25.960 an evil sin in their heart like evil in their hearts um and then the the uh the cry of dereliction

01:26:35.260 Again, very similar when Jesus cries out,

01:26:38.000 my God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

01:26:40.700 What should he cry out?

01:26:42.760 Like, what's the alternative?

01:26:44.880 He wants perfect fellowship with his father through his humanity.

01:26:48.600 And he's treated like a sinner on the cross and sin is placed on him.

01:26:52.920 And so the father withdraws his love from his son pertaining to his humanity on the cross.

01:26:58.540 so what is the holy righteous response for jesus to scream out right like that that's a perfect

01:27:08.000 response he doesn't want his wrath he shouldn't want his wrath right like i mean jesus teaches us

01:27:15.120 perfectly it let me say it this way in the garden of gethsemane it was holy for jesus to desire his

01:27:22.080 father's will, and it was holy for him not to desire his father's wrath. It's both. It's not

01:27:28.360 either or. It's kind of like with my mom who died of Parkinson's in 2022. I should want her to be

01:27:36.320 with Jesus, but I shouldn't want her to leave me. I think both are holy desires, right?

01:27:43.660 Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's good. Well said. All right. Well, there you have somebody in the chat,

01:27:49.100 Charles A. Monaghan. He said, Joel has a fine way of extending outros and closing remarks into

01:27:55.220 a whole other segment of the show. But yeah, there we go. We did it. All right, Jared,

01:28:00.640 thank you so much for coming on the show. We really appreciate you. Keep up the good work.

01:28:04.900 Man, thank you so much. Y'all keep turning the page and saying what the Bible says, all right?

01:28:09.900 Yes, sir. Thank you. Will do. Listener, thanks for tuning in. God bless you,

01:28:13.540 and Lord willing, we will see you again this Friday.

01:28:19.100 Thank you.

The NXR Podcast - January 29, 2025

THE LIVESTREAM - Zondervan’s Political Bible & Preston Sprinkles’ Subversion w Dr. Jared Moore

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