THE SPECIAL - If It’s Not Hierarchy, It’s Not Christian (w⧸Kangmin Lee)
Episode Stats
Length
1 hour and 2 minutes
Harmful content
Misogyny
6
sentences flagged
Toxicity
23
sentences flagged
Hate speech
60
sentences flagged
Summary
In this episode, Pastor Joel Webben joins us to discuss his new book, "The Silent Jihad" and his views on race and gender equality in the modern world. He also talks about the church and its relationship to racial and gender egalitarianism, and how it pertains to politics, nationhood, and the state.
Transcript
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These grandmas, these young girls, these young men who were just going about their day, not disturbing anyone, just trying to do their thing.
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Now they become subject to such senseless violence and the judicial system does nothing about it.
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The Asian activists and the pop culture, the media doesn't do anything about it.
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And that is the kind of injustice that we're talking about because there's an inversion of hierarchy.
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I never wanted to write a book called The Silent Jihad.
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I was called to be a parish priest, celebrate the sacraments,
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preach the gospel, marry couples, baptise children, comfort the dying,
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and to help build up the body of Christ in a quiet corner of England.
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I'm still called to those things, but Christendom is under attack,
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The silent jihad exposes how Islam's advance in Britain and the West
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is carried not only by terrorism, but by grooming gangs,
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and the cowardice of leaders who refuse to name the threat.
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It is a priest's warning that unless we recover a bold, unapologetic Christian faith
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at our borders, in our laws, and in our pulpits,
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the nations once shaped by the cross will be quietly remade in the image of Islam.
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Get your copy today, newchristianright.com forward slash jihad.
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Radical Christian nationalist pastor, Joel Webben.
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here we are kongman thanks for coming on the show appreciate it thanks for having me it's
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good to be back all right good uh so today we want to talk about egalitarianism we want to talk
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about egalitarianism as it pertains to the sex, sexes, male and female, but also racial
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egalitarianism and how it's affected politics, nationhood, but especially the church. Go ahead
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and start us off. I think this is the fundamental issue that Christians need to grapple with.
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Of course, there's ancient heresies like Gnosticism or Unitarianism, all these things
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We believe in the books of the Bible, the proper ones.
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where the erasure of distinctions among peoples,
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is evil and it's wrong when in actuality Christianity is not egalitarian it's hierarchical
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it's right-wing in that sense where Jesus gives us different talents he gives us different
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abilities he gives us different giftings and so we all know this Christians all know this
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but then somehow they believe that those different giftings will result in equal results
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right among all peoples among individuals and i find that that lie to be so pernicious
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because it pervades into every sector of society and every part of the church where now they say
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that if there isn't full equality then there is something inherently evil but christianity
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traditionally has never taught equality it hasn't and yes equality of value because we are all
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image bearers of God. Of course, but there are certain people who are treated differently based
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on their behavior, based on their sins or their crimes. We have proportionate punishments for
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people based on their crimes. And so when we say equality under the law, equality, yes, these
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things all sound great, but we have to have a proper Christian understanding of equality. And
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it's really only equality of value among people because we're all image bearers of God. We have
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intrinsic value because god made us fearfully and wonderfully but it's hierarchical uh society's
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hierarchical it's inevitable the church is hierarchical you have the elders the pastors
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the teaching elders the ruling elders on top and the family's hierarchical god is very clear in
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scripture society's hierarchical we have to submit to our governing authorities and heaven is
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hierarchical we will all be rewarded for the work that we do here and so if you're storing up
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treasures in heaven you will be rewarded lavishly in the life to come but if you do not yes maybe
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you do make it to through the pearly gates but you won't have as much right the christian who
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lives comfortably will not have as much as the martyr right first corinthians i believe it's
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chapter 3 speaks of one who builds with precious jewels and gold and precious metals and one who
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builds with wood hay stubble but each man's work will be tested by fire and the one who built with
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temporal things worthless things the wood the hay the stubble um it will all be burnt up and uh and
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he will suffer great loss the text says although he himself will be saved as one barely escaping
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flames so there is a biblical precedent and a biblical theology to encompass the individual who
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he himself is justified and therefore is saved and enters the pearly gates. But his works
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are burnt up. His ministry was a vain ministry. He himself believed the gospel and was justified,
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but he built with temporal things. And so each one will receive a reward, each according to his
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works and so you're right in heaven um everyone will be filled with joy and peace everlasting
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but even jonathan edwards argued for uh that no one is there's no half full or half empty glasses
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in heaven all right christ wipes away every tear no one is discontent everyone is filled with joy
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but edwards argued for uh varying capacities for joy that uh everyone will be full um but some will
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have a greater capacity for fullness like a larger glass and a smaller glass both full um and that
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being determined by our works here on earth even if you take the approach it's like well all our
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our works you know even our sanctified works for uh by the christian the things that we do
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in faith um you know because romans 14 says that anything that does not proceed from faith is um
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sin and so you know all of our works are filthy rags yeah that's all of our works apart from
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christ apart from the sanctifying work of the spirit who purifies the work of a christian but
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our good works um even if you take the approach that uh whatever heavenly rewards they may merit
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all those rewards will cast at the feet of jesus fine like even if we go that route um i think that
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there's a lot of merit to that um but i would rather have more crowns to lay at the feet of
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jesus than less so even that is a form of a hierarchy one will have more to give to king
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jesus and one will have less no matter how you slice it heaven has a hierarchy hell has a
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hierarchy jesus says that uh to one they will be given a light beating to another a severe beating
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based upon their works he even says to the jewish towns that he was ministering in that rejected
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him despite all the miraculous signs and wonders he says um woe to you tyre and sidon pronouncing
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woes on these Jewish cities. For if the miracles that had been performed in you had been performed
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in Sodom and Gomorrah, they would have repented long ago. To them, we'll receive a light beating
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to you, a severe beating. So hell is hierarchical. Hell will have those, you know, kind of like
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Dante's Inferno. I don't know if it plays out exactly like that, but the raw overarching
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concept of degrees of torment, I think is biblical just on the basis of the words of Christ alone.
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so hell has a hierarchy heaven has a hierarchy earth has a hierarchy and uh to deny that is uh
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is not tolerance or compassion or kindness or humility um it's anti-christian it goes against
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nature and the god of nature the triune god to be against hierarchy is to be antichrist
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yeah and there's hierarchy even within the trinity too right so when we careful well yes i don't
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want to get into like ancient, I tread very fair. Trinitarian doctrine is a touchy subject.
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Go ahead. I don't want to unpack it all the way because I might say something, someone might
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accuse me of, but even, you know, the son is equal to the father, but he was still a subordinate to
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him in his earthly ministry. Yes. Yes. So I want to be very careful, very careful because I know
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that can get a little dicey there. Yeah. Well, that's one of the, it's a hot topic in the
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theological Christian world of ESF, eternal subordination or function, EFS, eternal functional
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subordination. Is the son in glory now seated at the right hand of the father still subjugated to
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the father in terms of degrees of authority, in terms of role, not essence, right? He's not of
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a similar substance, but the same substance sharing in the one divine essence. But does he
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functionally play a subordinate role to the father, even in glory? And I would argue, no.
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But in his earthly ministry, because of the second nature, namely the human nature,
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that in his humanity, he was in full submission and obedience to the father. Absolutely.
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And then we're also not Nestorian. So, you know, there's a lot of things that we can get into.
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Or Eutychian. So yeah, there's a lot of stuff. Go ahead.
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But all that being said, hierarchy will exist regardless, because that is ingrained into who
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we are as people but so the question isn't hierarchy or whether or not we accept hierarchy
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what's what's the proper mode of hierarchy right so if you in your pursuit of egalitarianism of
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vast equality in your pursuit of that you will instate a new hierarchy but an inverted one
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that's in a perverse one that's a perverted one and so that's what we see today where uh yeah it's
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not equality of women it's the superiority it's it's the supremacy of women and that's what
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feminism is they they mask it under equality but they just want to be superior and they want to
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rule over men and so there's that you see racial hierarchies too right where there's preferential
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treatment towards certain racial minorities depending on their perceived amount of victimhood
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past grievances all that stuff and so there are these new forms of hierarchy that emerge
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in the pursuit of egalitarianism but they're manufactured they're manipulated forms of
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hierarchy so they have to be propped up by um injustice so that's the idea of equal in in two
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facets one um innate dignity and value in the sight of god image bearers as you said earlier
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so there's um the higher the eternal the spiritual and equality um and then there's the legislative
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judicial equality each equal under the law but in order to achieve equality here on earth in terms
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of outcome and opportunity and those kinds of things what we've had to do is actually precisely
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the opposite from biblical justice we've had to ultimately try to enact injustice because people
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I don't feel like there's accurate representation
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and they can jump higher yeah have you ever played basketball with black people
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yeah it sucks oh it's terrifying yeah it sucks they're so fast they're they're very good at
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basketball yeah america will either have christ or we'll have chaos for years conservatives
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believed that trump could reverse america's decline but after trump the right is now fractured
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exhausted and losing ground endless infighting and electoral losses have exposed a deeper problem
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that politics alone cannot solve a nation that rejects christ cannot be restored by mere
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personalities grandstanding or christless conservatism so nxr studios first annual
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conference, America After Trump, brings together pastors, politicians, commentators, and Christians
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that are committed to strength, cooperation, and a durable future for the American right.
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Complaining is not a strategy, and despair cannot be an option. Christ is King. Let's live like it.
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but my point so my point is um what we've done though legislative is we've actually
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removed we champion equality but in order to get equality of opportunity and outcome
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what we've had to do is actually have inequality legislatively and judicially under the law
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so we've actually had to um in order to make sure that prisons aren't just you know
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uh 80 filled with black people because that's a bad look right you don't you want to be racist
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so then what do we do well we have repeat offenders and career criminals and for the
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most part they happen to be people of color i've noticed uh it just came out today actually that
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the mass shooter in austin right he was a repeat i think like 30 prior arrests he was he was
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arrested for running a woman over with his car yeah and disabling her for life yeah and the
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fact that he this guy is still running around as a naturalized american citizen crazy voting in our
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voting in our elections and being able to purchase a rifle right it's unacceptable and that's the kind
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of injustice that we're talking about right where you have this misplaced compassion for these
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perceived victims and as a result it results in actual victims actual hurting people who are
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disabled who are killed uh you know two of the victims were named today and there were two
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students two college students the whole life ahead of them and they were just senselessly
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killed yeah for what purpose why because we need to value diversity like these are such obscure
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concepts that an abstract principles that actually aren't principles functionally or ontologically
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they're just cudgels that are used to bludgeon us over the head over and over and over and over and
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over again so that we will submit to this inverted form of hierarchy where we have to you know give
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preference and deference to the illegal alien even if he's going around terrorizing our communities
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it's racist to call that out it's white supremacy i got this all the time during the height of stop
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asian hate you are promulgating white supremacist narratives that it is majority black people
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attacking asians in our inner cities right there's asian hate who's hating them yeah
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who is the one hating them and the ones who were even during covid yelling racist slurs to asians
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in their face were predominantly black and people always look at the data and the data skewed and
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i've talked a lot about this on my platform where they for example categorize posters of donald trump
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as anti-asian hate incidents it's up it's absurd it's absurd but you just you just live in real
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life you observe reality you see the videos yes it was predominantly black people who were attacking
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Asians on the streets who are unprovoked, hitting them over the head, beating them,
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ganging up on them, falling them into their apartment, shoving them onto stubbley tracks.
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And then so what happens as a result is that law-abiding Asians, these grandmas, these
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young girls, these young men who were just going about their day, not disturbing anyone,
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Now they become subject to such senseless violence and the judicial system does nothing
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uh the asian activists and the pop culture the media doesn't do anything about it why because
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it's racist to call that out and that is the kind of injustice that we're talking about because
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there's an inversion of hierarchy well now oh well we got to completely topple white supremacy now
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so if there's anyone white or now they consider asians white adjacent right um for the white
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adjacent actually we don't care about them oh but we got to pander towards a certain racial minority
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And I find that to be deeply evil because what happens as a result is that innocent people are killed, are brutalized, and no one cares.
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And then people actually become apathetic towards these crimes and this violence, although they claim to be compassionate and tolerant and really empathetic.
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And so I see that happening, and it does grieve me.
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It grieves me that we're at a point where so many Christians cannot discern.
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they can't discern what truly is evil and what is not where i see so many professing christians cry
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cry about the left-wing agitators and anarchists who are obstructing law enforcement and were killed
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because of their antics versus and they say nothing they don't feel anything for the young
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girls and the young men the americans who were killed by illegal aliens nothing to say about
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that right and objectively those girls who are raped who are killed by illegal aliens are innocent
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the left-wing agitators were not they're violent they're obstructing law enforcement but they will
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cry and they will weep for the leftist agitator for the anarchist for the terrorists but they
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will do nothing when actual innocent americans are killed are hurting are brutalized and tortured
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right and i i find that to be really despicable yeah too many tears shed over dead commies yeah
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which i mean i there's a lot of signs in the past where people say oh only good commies dead commie
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you know i don't believe in political violence but we've gotten to a point where yeah but that's
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not political violence um you know if if it's uh if a woman is attempting to run you over in her car
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right and you've been commissioned by the executive branch of our government the president
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the united states chief executive for a particular particular task and your life is being threatened
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then you have to do what you have to do yeah but that's different than political violence yeah
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absolutely uh and so i look at that and you know there's a huge squashing of distinctions among
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people and so and in that pursuit there becomes this inverted racial hierarchy that happens
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and it becomes to a place where left-wingers get so engulfed in this and especially left-wing
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christians become so engulfed in this ideology that they cannot see past it and they do not
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live in the same reality as us where if i say anything about you know the millions of babies
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being aborted and brutalized in the womb uh their body parts being sucked out and just just the
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worst ways that we're killing our babies in the womb nothing christians feel nothing these these
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left-wing christians but then oh god forbid god forbid an illegal alien who is committing crime
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gets you know killed by ice by committing while committing that violent crime
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oh such a tragedy such a tragedy they're crying and it's it's it's really disheartening
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to see how many professing believers really buy into all this but at the same time um you know
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a lot of these Christians, a lot of Christians who, you know, I'm not going to doubt their
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salvation, right? I think the salvific work of Christ is, you know, they'll be accountable to
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God when they pass and go to the life to come. But when they start talking about how we're all
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the same and we're all equal, they don't believe that. They don't actually believe that. And why
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i say that is because even among siblings right even among among siblings they don't end up in
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the same place they don't end up in the same income bracket they don't end up doing the same
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work they don't end up with the same resources even within the same family upbringing you're
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going to have people siblings who are genetically even similar but then they have different outcomes
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in society right but then they have this delusion that oh but even though individuals among their
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own family have disparities any sort of disparities among groups in society oh that's unacceptable
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and that has to be due to discrimination and then once they do that then they again there's
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there's no such thing as getting rid of hierarchy so that in order in their pursuit of equality
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they have now a different form of discrimination and then namely straight white young men right
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discriminating against them actively hiring people who aren't straight white men um and keeping them
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out of colleges to give more opportunities to minorities and women and gays and whatever
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perceived victim group and a protected class and then so what happens as a result is like you said
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injustice it's injustice and i also think you know everyone agrees like you see a lot of black
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people online too they brag about how black people have thicker bones right thicker muscle density and
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they have more fetch uh fast twitch muscle fibers all that stuff which makes them the
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best athletes the best basketball players the fastest track runners and it's like okay cool
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like i acknowledge that they have that kind of genealogy and those genes that allow them to be
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faster more explosive stronger uh but then when it comes to other things that are biological and
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genetic namely iq i know that's a very touchy subject but for example the iq of somalia the
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average iq is 68 versus the average iq of korea is like 110 right so that so then of course there's
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going to be disparities between the wealth creation and the status of somalia versus
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south korea right there's going to be disparities between and this is why you see countries in
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africa that has gotten trillions of dollars of aid but they're still the poorest countries in
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the world versus japan they were nuked twice the capital city bombed into oblivion and you go to
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hiroshima nagasaki where are they they're bustling cities now right right it's amazing yeah and so
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there are distinctions among people it's not hateful with the somalians just for the record
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part of that is inbreeding yeah incest there's deep religious connotations and just cultural
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connotations but you can look at the history of somalia and its generations of incest and uh there
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are profound genetic effects yeah there's uh i think two like i think two-thirds uh fact check
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me if i'm wrong but i think two-thirds of somalians are a result of first or second cousin marriages
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right um and obviously that includes within like siblings and things like that uh but and so people
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always say oh it's not a you know people problem it's a culture problem okay but who creates the
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culture people it's the people and then so there's a reason why certain places are still
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riddled with crime they have what feminists would call rape cultures and they treat people
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terribly it's because it's the people and it's the people who dictate the culture and of course
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you are influenced by the culture you grow up in but then who's the one dictating the cultural norms
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the values the morals the customs it's the people right and then there's a reason why
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you look at the most powerful and richest countries in the world and the most influential
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and the most orderly and clean and all that stuff it has been traditionally the west
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and the east yeah and so not all peoples are the same and that's okay that's really okay but then
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we get into this lie of blank slate ism that everyone is an individual and we are just silos
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and, oh, you just happened to be born a Korean.
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And I think that's something to be proud of
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And like, that's something to be proud of.
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if you weren't of that lineage, of that ancestry.
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We don't believe that we were just souls floating in the ether and then we
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happen to embody a random body. No, no. God created his body and soul.
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Let's talk about that for a moment. Let's talk about, so yeah,
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we're not Gnostics. So we believe that the body matters.
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but that's not to say that the body doesn't matter at all. The apostle Paul,
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you know, he says that spiritual training is of more value,
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but physical training is still of some value. He doesn't,
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he doesn't um assign to physical training no value he just says that it has some value rather than
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all value and so um the body matters we don't view the body as um perpetually cursed uh as though
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it's simply the prison that's entrapping the soul and the soul is looking forward to
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being able to break free uh in in that kind of theology in that scheme uh it really makes uh
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death the savior rather than christ um and so um there were you know different kinds of gnostics
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most of them deprived the body so perpetually fasting or even you know whipping themselves
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and things like that self-flagellation right exactly white liberal um and then there were
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a few minority sects that went the other way right if the body is a prison and it's of literal
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account and then they were uh hedonistic and indulged and you know gluttonous and um so we're
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are you familiar with the theology of Traducianism?
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The idea is like, basically when you think of the soul,
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We know where the body comes from at conception,
00:27:36.540
man and woman when formed in the mother's womb.
00:27:42.920
like we believe that at the moment of conception,
00:28:28.100
if you're reading like Tolkien or you're reading even Lewis,
00:28:42.400
in the silver chair, Prince Rilian, when he's finally freed from the green lady, which is a
00:28:50.960
witch in the likeness of the white witch from the lion, the witch in the wardrobe, when he's finally
00:28:55.860
freed from her spell, and then she shows up, and then she takes her true form of a serpent, and he
0.69
00:29:02.060
chops off her head, and Jill Pol is kind of like being protected, and she's the young girl of the
00:29:08.920
story and she's hiding back, but she never loses her composure. And, and he addresses her when
00:29:15.220
it's all said and done and says, I'm really impressed that you held it together, that you're
00:29:19.360
not, you know, trembling, you know, or crying, you know, you, you had grit. And he says, you,
00:29:27.400
you must be your birth of some noble line. And so he doesn't just attribute to her like, wow,
00:29:34.380
you made a great decision in that moment as an individual you you know rose to the chat no he
00:29:39.760
he uh instinctively attributes to her some nobility of blood he's like you must be of a
00:29:47.600
unique heritage you know and it's and it's not just even the biological the physical component
00:29:53.160
but like you have or the expression you know like uh he has an old soul um you know or you think of
00:29:59.900
like um aragorn you know descendant of isildur you know and like i he's i don't know what strength
00:30:08.780
flows through my blood you know like he doesn't just say i don't know what choice i'll make in
00:30:14.140
the moment and you know from my blank slate ism if i'll rise to the challenge and you know win
00:30:20.000
the day no he's like i'm i i don't know um if the strength of nobility in my lineage in my ancestry
00:30:42.520
would attribute to ancestry, to lineage, to kin,
00:30:47.540
some kind of quality, whether for good or for bad.
00:31:05.600
And it makes sense that he would be the one to,
00:31:08.500
you know, like even in the case of, you know, Bilbo,
00:31:25.820
someone's so small and seemingly insignificant could win the day. But then when you get into
00:31:30.260
the lineage, as Tolkien's kind of writing the story and the ancestry of Bilbo, that he, on one
00:31:37.160
side, right, the Baggins were a very well-to-do family and did not like adventures and all those,
00:31:42.800
but the Tuk side of his family were known for being peculiar among hobbits, that they,
00:31:49.940
he had, you know, one particular ancestor on that side who was unusually large for a hobbit,
00:31:57.620
and he would go off on adventures from time to time
00:32:06.820
when he's like, I don't wanna go on this journey,
00:32:18.740
And so my point is that this is the way people used to think.
00:32:25.160
It was just acknowledging that there's something to ancestry and not only a physical component of the genes that we inherit, but even a spiritual component.
00:32:37.260
The soul was not just made ex nihilo at the moment of conception, but that even the soul, just as the genetics would transfer from the mother and father, that even the spiritual components of the human being were also inherited.
00:32:55.160
And I think there's, I find that position fascinating.
00:33:03.380
In Korean culture, they always talk about how in Korean,
00:33:13.840
And it's always like trying to trace it to someone in their family.
00:33:17.180
Oh, this person is super loud because they're just like their grandmother.
00:33:22.580
They get it from their father, their mother, right?
00:33:25.160
and so even that there is this inherent understanding that even part of who we are
00:33:29.440
comes from where we come from and so this is why i'm very i find a lot of the exegesis and
00:33:36.480
hermeneutics and just the way that christians talk about theology to be very deeply unserious today
00:33:42.060
where they say you're the only identity that matters is christ right your identity in christ
00:33:47.760
and yes that's first and foremost of course matters the most because yes as a son of god
00:33:52.040
That is my primary identity, me being reconciled to God, my father, my eternal father in heaven.
00:34:06.200
And if you look at history, it's not only in great stories like the Lord of the Rings,
00:34:11.660
but all throughout history, people always introduce themselves as,
00:34:18.840
even simon bar jonah of bar like yeah naming the the lineage yeah yeah in the bible too the way
00:34:26.420
that they introduced each other or themselves was hey i am blank son of blank and so when you
00:34:32.760
sons of zebedee yes exactly and so there is a deep spiritual component to that i think people
00:34:38.620
try to i think there is an element of christianity today that you know spiritualizes everything
00:34:44.680
oh man the lord is keeping me and testing me and it's like okay just you know all you have to do
00:34:50.220
is wake up on time right but um but there is a component of our identity that is you know part
00:34:57.920
it's from our lineage it's from our ancestry that is spiritual and people say people talk about
00:35:03.260
generational sin it's true it's true if that generational sin from your family lineage is
00:35:09.180
not redeemed and your family line is not restored from that generational sin, you will see a repeat
00:35:15.820
of that. Let's talk about that for a second. Generational sin or iniquity, generational
00:35:22.320
curses. There's different biblical language for this. And there's a lot of guys who believe in
00:35:27.720
this lack of, for lack of a better word, dispensation, this gospel error, the church age
00:35:33.640
and the New Testament, that there's no such thing as generational sin or these kinds of things.
00:35:39.180
And I wanna distinguish here between generational sin
00:35:50.420
in terms of higher propensities towards some vices
00:35:55.360
rather than others, distinguishing between that
00:36:17.800
like individualism, has stemmed from Christianity,
0.78
00:36:36.420
his perspective, that is on an individual basis. No man will be justified on the basis of the faith
00:36:43.200
of his parents or his country or his ancestors, and neither will anyone be condemned on the basis
00:36:48.720
of anything that their people may have done that was wrong. Each person will stand before God on
00:36:55.760
the basis of whether or not he's covered in the righteousness of Christ that he's received by
00:37:01.500
grace of faith in him. And if he comes from a particular people that were guilty of heinous
00:37:08.400
atrocities, but he's repented and turned from that sin and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, then
00:37:15.180
he's redeemed. And that blood guilt doesn't follow him. So God judges us in terms of the
00:37:23.480
final judgment on an individual basis, but we're not talking about blood guilt. We're talking about
00:37:29.060
about generational sin in terms of besetting sins
00:37:35.180
and to specify even more in terms of proclivities,
00:37:51.160
and this particular ancestry is going to struggle.
00:37:56.160
to struggle, he's going to have an added challenge.
00:38:09.280
or the body or both, he's going to be particularly vulnerable
00:38:38.040
The Psalms say that God made grass for the cattle,
00:38:50.100
And the people were drunk, but it was a sugar high
00:38:54.280
right that's how uh the baptist would you know but um yeah of course so so the bible does not
00:39:00.760
inherently condemn alcohol but it does absolutely condemn uh drinking irresponsibly and drunkenness
00:39:07.460
yes but some people say i recognize as a christian i so i am a new man right if any man be in christ
00:39:13.780
jesus he's a new creature yeah right so i am a new creature with a new identity and i understand the
00:39:19.480
theological premises i know that i can drink and do so so long as i don't drink too much and it not
00:39:24.960
be sin it can be to the glory of god whether you eat or drink whatever you do to the glory of god
00:39:29.220
i know all that and even though spiritually speaking i'm a new creature in christ jesus
00:39:33.920
naturally speaking i come from this line there's this propensity and so i've decided not to touch
0.51
00:39:39.980
the stuff to which we would we would say um well you're a darwinian you're you're a pagan
0.53
00:39:48.480
ethno-nationalist you you must be a racist how dare you put any stock in biology um no we would
00:39:57.520
say oh yes i respect that decision that's very wise of you but then we shift to another category
00:40:02.240
but the same principle the same concept and the thing i just said we actually do begin to say
00:40:06.940
racist um no particular people i think can have a propensity towards particular sins
00:40:43.940
Right, so he'll look at something where it's like,
00:40:47.820
there are Jews who've converted to Christianity,
00:40:57.080
and yet they might find a particular vulnerability
00:41:01.060
and temptations that they wrestle with that I don't,
00:41:07.080
That concept I think Tucker would struggle with.
00:41:09.500
you know but the way i just articulated i'd love to have the conversation with him someday because
00:41:15.100
i think he at least could find that more palatable because i'd be able to do what i just did
00:41:18.880
and saying i'm not talking about blood guilt i am talking about besetting particular sins of
00:41:25.520
particular people particular sins just as we have particular virtues and strengths of particular
00:41:31.140
people there there are shame honor-based societies that have been long multiple generations within
00:41:38.360
in their culture and their customs and their people,
00:41:41.600
where they have a propensity towards certain virtues
00:42:00.780
that different groups of people have different strengths,
00:42:03.860
but they're not particularly fond of the different weaknesses
00:42:17.400
but a lot of the Korean churches are Presbyterian,
00:42:32.660
where they scream, Lord, Lord, Lord, three times.
00:42:37.200
really? And they start praying like, right? In tongues? Yeah. Well, in tongues, a lot of them
00:42:44.580
in tongues, but also just like, like just really praying so super passionately. And so it's actually
00:42:49.700
funny because in a lot of Christian circles, people say, let's pray Korean style, right?
00:42:54.940
Because Koreans are marked at least in their religiosity with fervor and passion, the way
00:43:03.080
that they cry out to God, the way that they pray,
00:43:05.120
it's not solemn, it's passionate, it's fervent.
00:43:31.780
And so there's that passion, but then it is misplaced.
00:43:35.920
And then it is used to have a lot of these cults.
00:43:43.500
willing to acknowledge that there are different strengths.
00:43:47.000
they talk about how they got the rhythm and all that stuff.
00:43:52.160
And yeah, I think there's nothing wrong with that.
00:43:55.520
But then once you start talking about then their proclivities
00:44:05.360
And so, you know, it's not just differences among races, but also clans, you know?
00:44:10.700
And like you said, there is something about lineage, about ancestry that we do inherit
00:44:19.560
That we're not people who believe in blood guilt.
00:44:22.240
A Japanese person that I meet today is not responsible for what the imperialist Japanese
00:44:27.000
did to my great great grandfather right and my great grandfather and his generation just to be
0.98
00:44:34.040
clear for the record the germans today are still responsible right we'll never never forgive forgive
0.83
00:44:39.900
we will never move on right uh never again is now yeah it's right now i feel it yeah james lindsey
00:44:46.100
he feels it i feel it uh but you know but there is something to be said about okay there is some
00:44:52.040
history there and i do believe the one thing that can sanctify a bloodline and sanctify a family
00:44:58.040
lineage from those sins is christ and the finished work of christ of course every single person is
00:45:03.180
responsible for their own actions but there is something to be said about inherited yes you
00:45:08.920
know brokenness and things like that and that's why and it can change yes but slowly over time
00:45:13.420
yeah so like a bloodline in their history right that your your ancestry um that actually can
00:45:20.940
change generational sins um we see this happen by the grace of god all the time where someone says
00:45:28.460
um there are besetting sins that my father uh wrestled with his demons and my grandfather
00:45:34.920
my great grandfather but it's going to stop with me yes and i'm not going to pass this on to my
00:45:39.480
children yes right like my my parents got divorced their parents got divorced their parents got
00:45:44.660
divorced um me and my wife as for me and my house we will serve the lord and it might be really
00:45:50.660
really hard um so it doesn't just change in 15 minutes but you're the first to change the time
00:45:56.720
and by the time it gets down two three four generations now it's like uh well now the lee
00:46:02.840
name and house is known for fidelity and known for you know what i mean exactly so it can change
00:46:08.940
but it's not like a microwave it's more like a crockpot it changes slowly yeah and i think this
00:46:15.560
is a really important conversation to have to have because like i said before christians just say
00:46:20.120
all forms of identity is idolatry except for christ and i feel like that is not only false
00:46:27.220
anthropology it's just false christian anthropology that's right um christ never erases distinctions
00:46:32.520
actually bloodlines are very important we have the messiah who came from the davidic line that
00:46:38.760
bloodline was very very important it was important for the messiah why would it not be important for
00:46:43.700
us and so uh and you see all this genealogy people always complain about oh the genealogy
00:46:48.980
so boring in the Bible, especially when I, you know, at my church as a youth group and the youth
00:46:53.500
kids call the genealogy, the genealogy, but that's important. It's important. And it is a story. It's
00:46:58.460
a narrative that's been crafted over generations from our ancestors. But part of my identity is
00:47:03.900
that I'm a Lee. I'm a Korean. And it's not the most important, but it is important because we
00:47:11.300
are not blank slate individuals. We are not social creatures that can form an identity apart from our
00:47:17.140
relationships right people think this and you see this you see a lot of women say this all the time
00:47:21.100
like i need to find myself so i need a break right i need to find myself so i need to isolate myself
00:47:27.100
you cannot find yourself apart from your relationships because your identity is tied to
00:47:32.340
who you're related to and your relationships with the people around you if you are from new york you
00:47:38.540
grew up in new york that is a part of who you are because you are a new yorker your relationship is
00:47:42.980
with new yorkers you were born and raised in new york your community is new york but also you are
00:47:48.040
what you're descended from italian immigrants or something like that and your mother is a
00:47:51.900
marachino or whatever right and it's like and those things are important to who we are and
0.93
00:47:56.100
everyone understands this this is why blm was so hysterical and but that's why it captured the
0.99
00:48:00.400
whole country because the black identity was a big part of who black people are and so there is
00:48:07.100
something to be said about how that is an important part of who we are there's nothing wrong with
00:48:11.200
preserving that but there's also nothing wrong with acknowledging it because the more that we
00:48:15.340
move away from it and keep lying to christians and saying actually that all of that doesn't matter
00:48:20.460
your only identity in christ matters then it leads to right the heresies of skipping church
00:48:26.660
and not being involved and connected to a local body right to say oh yeah it's just me and jesus
00:48:32.860
i just need me and jesus right but no like you need a community of believers to hold you accountable
00:48:44.280
Our identity is formed by the relationships that we have
00:48:49.880
And apart from our natural affections and the bonds,
00:48:53.540
the natural bonds we have with those around us,
00:49:06.520
your relationship with God, that's first and foremost,
00:49:08.800
and i am korean so i come from korea and i'm a lee because my father was a lee and i grew up
00:49:16.760
in america and so there's part of that that is part of my identity that i am i'm an immigrant
00:49:22.840
but i grew up in america and all these things shaped me right i went to school in la so yeah
00:49:28.600
i lived in la for a few years that part shaped me the relationships i had in la shaped me and
00:49:32.560
all these things are parts that shape someone to be who they are and so this rejection of
00:49:39.080
proper understanding of identity is actually very harmful to the christian because then it makes
00:49:46.620
them truly rootless cosmopolitans yes it makes them just cogs in the machine economic units and
00:49:53.700
that is a lie from the pit of hell that we are not economic units we're not mere rootless
00:49:59.480
cosmopolitan that serves the interest of corporates corporations and multinational
00:50:04.540
bodies and global list whoever right it is we are people and i am a person i am a son of god but i
00:50:15.140
am a lee i am korean and i'm american and all these things are parts of who we are we're bound
00:50:20.420
that's what the nation is is the family writ large so we're bound to a particular people
00:50:24.420
um familia uh family and um and we're also bound to the land yes yes i believe like i mean you
00:50:34.000
know both of us are biblical christians so we both would hold to that all people descended from adam
00:50:39.940
and eve and then uh in a second batch you know from noah and his wife and his three sons um we
00:50:46.600
believe that we don't just think it's metaphor we we actually believe that that's biblical history
00:50:50.820
and yet we have so many distinct peoples um and it's like well what accounts for the distinctions
00:50:57.180
how can we have people that are so different if they all share a common ancestor um and and one
00:51:02.740
of the answers to that is by way of providence part of it is blessings and curses and obedience
00:51:08.600
and worship right so culture comes from the latin latin cultists which is worship so uh i don't know
00:51:15.140
have your ancestors worshiped demons for a thousand years or have they worshiped christ for a thousand
00:51:19.380
that shapes the people, dietary restrictions, right?
00:51:33.920
in their eating, but not the cow itself, you know?
00:51:44.660
I come from people of the mountains, people of the woods,
00:51:49.380
have a spiritual formation, a cultural formation,
00:51:55.920
Like my people have eaten fish for 3,000 years.
00:52:08.180
And so to pretend that these things are not true
00:52:10.900
and that we can't say them because it's mean-spirited
00:52:19.380
um you could do it for a time but it's an artificial um manipulation yeah and um and
00:52:27.700
and what we're finding you know like USAID and those get like that um what once you once you
00:52:34.500
stop um all the different mechanisms that are propping certain things up and suppressing and
00:52:41.140
holding other people down and you just say you know what no more no more government control
00:52:46.860
We're not going to put our hands, our fingers on the scales anymore.
00:52:56.660
Well, what you find is that people end up in different spots.
00:53:08.040
And if you find yourself lower on the totem pole than you would like to be,
00:53:14.020
And you say, as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.
00:53:23.260
We're gonna have a Christian diet, you know,
0.98
00:53:42.400
i i'm post-millennial i'm playing the long game yeah um and i actually believe that the church
00:53:48.680
the body of christ here on earth advances and wins not just in the bottom of the ninth saved
00:53:54.340
by the bell when jesus returns but actually wins tangibly throughout human history uh but gradually
00:54:00.580
slowly like a mustard seed that grows into a great tree or a little bit of leaven that works
00:54:04.920
through the whole batch of dough uh there are spikes and there are dips along the way and we're
00:54:09.980
in a heck of a dip right now with chrysidom in the west but i do actually believe that there
00:54:14.780
are tangible effects of the gospel monetary economic effects cultural effects the arts
00:54:21.540
the sciences innovation and even genetic effects i actually believe that the gospel changes
00:54:27.580
everything slowly and that last word is key slowly spiritually speaking conversion happens
00:54:36.340
in a moment, from death to life, lost to found, right? Born again, new creature in Christ Jesus.
00:54:43.080
But all that is in a spiritual category, in a physical, naturalistic category. It takes time.
00:54:52.080
You have to let them cook for a little bit. Let them cook. Let them cook. But I do believe that
00:54:56.840
the gospel is in fact so potent that it changes everything even down to genetics over generations.
00:55:03.020
and i think people are highly offended by that but i think to say anything less is to render the
00:55:09.560
gospel impotent it is to say that the gospel covers the penalty of sin but does not truly
00:55:14.680
have the power to break sin at least not uh generational sin besetting sins um but i believe
00:55:22.940
that the gospel does yeah um but you have to give it time yes 100 all right any final thoughts um
00:55:29.260
yeah i think you know we talked a lot but i think one thing that i just really want to
00:55:33.520
press home is debunking this idea that race is just skin deep it's just the level of melanin
00:55:39.440
in your skin right it's objectively just not true everyone knows it's not true they just
00:55:43.780
act like it's not and i find that to be uh quite dishonest when they say that because
00:55:48.420
and i mean you and i have similar skin tones right but anywhere i go in the world people
00:55:52.440
will recognize me as korean like there's not a single time where the people have made fun of me
00:55:56.900
and said like oh like are you chinese but they almost 99% of the time say oh you're korean right
00:56:02.560
i go to any country in the world they're like korean why you and i have the same skin tone
00:56:07.620
right probably similar levels of melanin and that that's all they chalk it up to be you might be
00:56:12.500
your skin tone might be a little bit more yellow just a little bit tight and you might be a little
00:56:16.900
more white but all that to say that it's there are biological distinctions among people and
00:56:23.980
people say oh yeah but our dna is 99 similar yes i know that but there are still meaningful
00:56:29.780
distinctions 98 similar with chimpanzees yeah but there's quite a bit of difference
00:56:34.700
chimpanzees are not made in the image of god you look at dog breeds too and dogs are very distinct
00:56:40.460
from one another each breed while sharing the vast majority of the same genetic composition
00:56:45.120
but they are still 99 similar correct and then so yes i'm not saying that oh one race is better
00:56:51.280
than the other and more valuable that's not what i'm saying but what i am saying is that there are
00:56:55.400
distinctions there's actually i don't know if you know this um there's this gene called the abcc 11
00:57:00.620
gene okay this is the gene that codes for the type of earwax you have and the type of body odor you
00:57:06.820
have koreans have a variant of this gene that actually allows for koreans not to have body
1.00
00:57:13.600
odor have you ever met a smelly korean not really haven't because upwards of 95 of koreans have
1.00
00:57:20.720
this variant of this gene wow this is why if you go to korea it's hard to find deodorant
1.00
00:57:25.160
koreans don't use deodorant women increasingly now are using deodorant as antiperspirants
00:57:29.600
but most deodorant is marketed for people in the west and all over the world as what to eliminate
00:57:35.580
stinky armpits right right koreans don't have stinky armpits you're gonna very occasionally
0.65
00:57:39.780
find a rare one with one sure koreans actually don't have stinky armpits and you go to korea
0.98
00:57:44.280
you go to a crowded subway it's not gonna stink it's not gonna stink and it's interesting it's
0.71
00:57:50.500
interesting isn't it that koreans don't smell and koreans have the highest percentage of this
00:57:54.420
variation of this gene japanese have the highest second highest than the chinese uh you know
00:57:59.820
africans and indians like don't have this at all they don't have this variant at all they have the
00:58:04.200
opposite variant um i don't want to get into the weeds there i might be called uh names but it's
00:58:09.720
just true it's just true and so i remember growing up and i was learning this about you know puberty
00:58:15.640
and things like that and in school they're teaching me that to use deodorant so i started
00:58:18.660
using deodorant my mom's like what are you doing and i'm like what do you mean i'm using deodorant
00:58:23.280
this is what they taught me in school i have to use this she's like you don't stink and you won't
00:58:27.560
stink no one in our family stinks from our armpits right no one you don't need it and i was like oh
00:58:33.080
okay and so till this day like i i don't unless like i feel like i'm gonna sweat a lot right
0.71
00:58:37.400
armpits but i don't and it's not a hygiene thing at that point because i don't stink right i just
00:58:42.480
don't stink and so this is this is something to be said and obviously there's the bone marrow
00:58:46.980
transplant argument and all these things about the distinction among races and the iq thing but
00:58:51.680
there are meaningful distinctions among people even to the to the point of being smelly or not
00:58:58.420
smelly and i've you know i people say that i'm racist whatnot i've dated non-korean girls before
00:59:05.060
i have uh but they've all had a specific particular body odor at the end of the day even if they were
1.00
00:59:11.760
clean and they you know use deodorant all that stuff um there would be a specific body odor
00:59:16.780
that i would smell that i would not smell among any of the koreans that i've dated uh so that's
00:59:22.640
an interesting fact that you know i hope that your viewers and a lot of people understand that
00:59:26.640
yes it's not just in skin deep it's not smelling it bone structure uh average height uh certain
00:59:33.380
inclinations or propensities for certain behaviors iq uh physicality yes all these things are yes
00:59:41.520
you're going to have exceptions but there's a reason why i can go anywhere in the world they'll
00:59:45.820
say i'm korean they're not going to be like oh you're american no they'll say i'm korean because
00:59:49.920
i come from that specific part of the world for thousands of generations thousands of years and
00:59:54.780
many many generations and so that all that being said i really hope christians continue to debunk
01:00:01.600
and move away from the lie that we're all the same yes we are imago day right we are made in
01:00:08.900
the image of god but i think more than that we have to start emphasizing ordo amoris ordered
01:00:15.260
loves. And once we start doing that, then we can have the proper view of hierarchy, that we place
01:00:21.280
the proper emphasis and the time and the resources and energy and loves into the things that truly
01:00:26.540
matter, the things that we can affect in our lives and the things that we have influence over,
01:00:30.780
namely our God, having a relationship with God, our family, our church, our neighborhoods, our
01:00:36.580
community, and our nation. And that's the proper order. And the more that Christians do that,
01:00:44.620
instead of trying to reach the nameless stranger
01:00:47.640
6,000 miles away, the person right next to them,
01:00:51.200
speaking to them, sharing the gospel truth with them,
01:00:53.440
loving them, giving the shirt off their back to them.
01:00:56.160
And I believe that's how you make substantial change.
01:01:04.140
but as to, can you be a present person in your family,
01:01:09.800
thanks for coming on the show kongman i appreciate it thanks for having me