The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - 2 Important Debates ｜ Jared Moore Vs. Doug Wilson, William Wolfe Vs. James Lindsay

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00:00:40 evangelicals appear to be fighting amongst themselves once again so in this episode of

00:00:46 theology applied i'm joined by 80 robles in order to present everything you need to know regarding

00:00:52 two particularly interesting feuds. One of these disagreements is between Jared Moore and Douglas

00:00:58 Wilson on the subject of homosexuality and the doctrine of concupiscence. The other is between

00:01:05 William Wolfe and James Lindsay over the ever-controversial topic of Christian nationalism.

00:01:11 Although James Lindsay is not a Christian, there appears to be a surprising number of

00:01:15 conservative evangelicals taking his side of the issue. Buckle up, this episode gets a bit spicy.

00:01:24 Applying God's word to every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied.

00:01:35 All right, welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied. I am your host, Pastor Joel

00:01:39 Webman with Right Response Ministries. And today I am privileged to have for the 947th time,

00:01:45 A.D. Robles, a regular on the show and a personal friend of mine. A.D., thanks for coming on.

00:01:51 Excellent. Thank you for having me. I asked ChatGPT here how I should introduce myself on a

00:01:57 podcast, and it's just taken too long to think. So I'm glad to be here.

00:02:02 It's like John Henry beating the steam engine. You know what I mean? It's like,

00:02:05 it can't keep up with a true OG podcaster. You know, there's just, there's no substitute for

00:02:10 blood and bone and marrow. So that's why we got you on here. Otherwise, you know, in the future,

00:02:16 as it perfects itself, I'll just interview chat. What is it called?

00:02:20 Chat GPT. Yeah. I'll just start interviewing a computer, you know, but for now, but for now,

00:02:25 we're going to continue to use people. All right. So you flesh it out because we were talking,

00:02:30 you know, before we hit record, before we went live about what we're, you know, what are we

00:02:34 going to discuss. And you had a really great idea. So you flesh it out. Give us the framework for

00:02:38 this episode. Yeah, yeah, sure. I'm glad to do that. So my first idea was just talking about

00:02:45 how to sort of handle and navigate and argue amongst ourselves as Christians. When solid

00:02:53 Christians, we're believers, we love the Lord, we have differences of opinion on whatever it might

00:02:59 be, how to best do that, how to fight well. And then, you know, the other thing that we talked

00:03:07 about was about just Christian nationalism. They go together because there's a lot of fighting

00:03:13 going on about that. People are very nervous and concerned about Christian nationalism. And so,

00:03:19 yeah, let's do it. Yep. Yeah, I can completely agree. Real quick, for the outset, I think it's

00:03:25 helpful for our listener to know what do we mean by Christian nationalism. So I'll speak for myself

00:03:30 and then you give any kind of distinctions that you might have, because even our two views,

00:03:35 I think they're pretty aligned, but just in case they're not, I won't speak for you. I'll just

00:03:39 speak for me. But when I say Christian nationalism, I'm perfectly happy to say, yeah, I'm a Christian

00:03:44 nationalist. Like if somebody asked me, hey, what is your theology? I don't volunteer necessarily

00:03:49 Christian nationalists. If they say, are you a Christian nationalist? I'll say, yes, let me define

00:03:53 the term. So I will say yes to that. I prefer to just say I'm a post-mill theonomist. But Christian

00:03:59 nationalism, it'll do. So I would agree with Doug Wilson, where he says, I wanted to pick that term

00:04:04 out of a hat, but if somebody's going to throw it on me, there's plenty of things that they're

00:04:07 going to say that are pejoratives that I have to defend against. But then there's some that it's

00:04:12 like, well, I can actually work with that term. I can actually defend that position. So Christian

00:04:17 nationalism, the way I see it, Doug describes it in very similar light, but you really have

00:04:22 three options, and then there's two sub-options underneath each one, so six options total.

00:04:28 You've got localist, like tribalism, and then you've got nationalism, and then you've got

00:04:34 globalism. I'm not a globalist. George Soros is just too cool for me. I'm not invited to any of

00:04:39 the parties. I don't eat bugs. I did when I was a kid, actually, because it was a good way to get

00:04:44 attention, like first grade. You go on your summer camp with the church, and all the other kids are

00:04:49 like, oh my gosh, he ate a bug. But I haven't eaten bugs in a long time. I swore them off. When

00:04:54 I was a child, I acted as a child, but I've grown up and put those things behind me. So I'm not a

00:04:59 globalist. Because first and foremost, I'm being facetious, but biblically, I believe in the

00:05:04 goodness of sovereign nations, that God actually appoints borders. He's sovereignly, so it's not

00:05:09 just people get together and make those plans. That's a human agency, but God actually, in his

00:05:14 sovereign decree actually institutes the lifespans, the days, the time of nations, the Bible says,

00:05:20 and its borders. And we see again and again and again the sovereign rights of nations to police

00:05:26 their borders, defend their borders. The sojourner, you know, or the stranger that we see in the Old

00:05:31 Testament, we do eisegesis, we being, of course, not you and I, but like gospel coalition types, 0.86

00:05:36 will eisegete in their illegal immigrant. That's not actually the word in the Hebrew.

00:05:41 It's somebody who entered through the walls legally.

00:05:44 This is not a fugitive.

00:05:45 This is somebody who legally came into Israel, the nation, and is going to assimilate in

00:05:51 their cultures.

00:05:52 They're going to be expected to adhere to the Sabbath laws, all these things.

00:05:55 Even guys, merchants who want to sell to Israel, who aren't even inside on their land, who

00:06:00 are outside the gate, Nehemiah tells them, if you come back on the Sabbath again, I'm 0.97

00:06:05 going to lay hands on you and beat you guys. 0.99

00:06:07 You know what I mean? 0.99

00:06:07 So it's just, it's insane.

00:06:08 So anyways, all that said.

00:06:10 Not very winsome.

00:06:10 Yeah, that's right.

00:06:11 So the point is nations are totally biblical.

00:06:13 And then tribalism, there's nothing wrong with a local mindset.

00:06:16 You and I, you know, we live in a particular place.

00:06:19 We think about the nation, but we think about the world in one hand, but we're also thinking

00:06:22 about our city, our county, our state, even smaller than that, our neighborhoods, and

00:06:26 of course, our households.

00:06:28 So that's fine, but that doesn't function in terms of, you know, this tribe of 40 people,

00:06:34 you know, because there's an instability.

00:06:36 There's not a stable, secure, you know, there's constantly, we've seen tribalism at work in

00:06:42 distant past and in other places still to this day, they're always at war.

00:06:47 It just doesn't work.

00:06:48 So tribalism or localism versus nationalism versus globalism, the biblical model by far

00:06:54 seems to be nationalism.

00:06:56 So then the question is, is it going to be pagan or Christian?

00:06:58 Pagan tribalism or Christian tribalism?

00:07:01 Pagan nationalism or Christian nationalism?

00:07:03 pagan globalism, or Christian globalism. So we're saying nationalism seems to get 0.95

00:07:08 the lion's share of biblical support. So we're going with that one. And then it's a no-brainer 0.63

00:07:13 for the second question. Is it Christian or is it God-hating? It's Christian. It has to be

00:07:17 Christian. Pluralism, it's anti-Christian, right? So in that sense, I just wanted to define my terms. 1.00

00:07:25 When I say I'm a Christian nationalist, what I believe is the goodness, the biblical goodness

00:07:28 of sovereign nations and the right to police their borders and adhere to certain customs,

00:07:33 but with Christ Jesus being king over all of it, and they must obey his will, which we find in

00:07:39 the law word of God, every jot and tittle, none of it will pass away. Heaven and earth will pass

00:07:45 away before any jot and tittle of the law. So we have the full law of God. Certain points have

00:07:50 been fulfilled by Christ, like the ceremonial law. It's all been fulfilled, but fulfilled and

00:07:55 abrogated the ceremonial law, but the rest remains intact. And those things need to continue to this

00:08:01 day. And Caesar is God's deacon, God's servant, serving under Christ as the high king, and he

00:08:06 needs to do his bidding. That's what I think of when I say I'm a Christian nationalist. That's

00:08:11 what I mean. I think that that's not a theonomic position. It is, but I think that's just the

00:08:15 Christian position. I think anything less than that is not Christian. What do you think? 0.55

00:08:20 Yeah, I try to keep it very simple. You know, I think that when you break it down, you know, our nation and all nations should be self-consciously Christian. That's what they should do. That's the good thing. And so everything about the nation should be Christian. So they should have Christian laws. They should have Christian traditions. They should have Christian customs, morality, education. Everything should be Christian. 0.99

00:08:45 And, and we should be self-conscious about that, trying to do the best we can to be as Christian as possible in every area. And what I mean, and that necessarily means that we're not making any accommodations for any other moral perspectives, any other religious perspectives. So in other words, you know, you could be a Muslim in a Christian nation, but you're not going to get Ramadan off. We're working. And if you don't want to work on Ramadan, that's up to you, but we're working, you know, and we're taking Christmas off.

00:09:11 And if you don't want to take Christmas off, that's up to you, but we're taking it off.

00:09:15 There's no accommodation.

00:09:16 So in other words, so in other words, you're the exception.

00:09:18 If you want to live here, that's fine, but you're the exception to the rule and we're 1.00

00:09:22 not going to have Muslim laws. 1.00

00:09:24 Right.

00:09:25 So if you don't like that tough because that's that we're Christian self-consciously Christian

00:09:30 nation.

00:09:31 We're not going to have pluralistic laws. 0.93

00:09:32 We're not going to have laws that, that, um, that, uh, are accommodating LGBT perspectives

00:09:39 or things like that.

00:09:39 No, we're having Christian laws because we're a Christian nation.

00:09:41 That's what we should be doing.

00:09:43 That's all I mean.

00:09:44 So as a Christian, I'm trying to make the nation as Christian as humanly possible.

00:09:49 Right, right.

00:09:51 Amen.

00:09:51 So with that, you know, and brotherly disagreement, those kinds of things, you know, like we've

00:09:57 seen some debates lately and some of them have been, you know, in good faith and there's

00:10:02 been charity, not weakness, right?

00:10:06 there's been, you know, good courage and faithfulness and somebody really, you know,

00:10:11 sticking to their guns. We've seen some of those debates lately, but we've also seen some debates

00:10:16 that have not gone very well in the Twitter sphere and other places. And a lot of the ones

00:10:22 that have not gone very well seem to be about this topic of Christian nationalism. So when you

00:10:27 thought of this topic of, let's talk about how to disagree as brothers, especially from, you know,

00:10:32 reformed brothers? How do we disagree with one another? What did you have in mind? Where do you

00:10:37 want to go from here? Yeah, definitely. Well, what I actually was thinking about when I had this idea

00:10:43 is the debate that we saw between Jared Moore, Dr. Jared Moore. He is a doctor, I think. Whatever.

00:10:52 Pastor Jared Moore. That's a better title. Pastor, anyway. So Pastor Jared Moore and Pastor Doug

00:11:00 wilson or i guess he's reverend doug wilson um and and basically the the controversy was you know

00:11:06 about uh same-sex orientation homosexuality and the orientation of you know being a homosexual

00:11:14 you know i mean that that kind of thing and whether or not that you know that orientation

00:11:17 was i don't know part of original sin or something like that it was just very very very specific kind

00:11:23 of debate because i don't think anyone would say that doug is pro uh gay christian right like that's

00:11:30 not like what people would say about him but there is some difference in opinion there and so i just

00:11:34 i just that's why i thought about it because i saw a lot of people arguing about that where it was

00:11:39 very good and helpful and i think necessary um but i did see some like overheated type stuff too

00:11:47 where it's like oh he's just soft on this he's just a tyrant and stuff like that i saw a little

00:11:51 bit of both and so that's why i wanted to kind of explore it a little bit and talk about i talk

00:11:57 about how to do that the right way because i think it's necessary you got to have those fights

00:12:00 i'm glad pastor jared moore brought this up because i think that issue needs clarity if

00:12:05 any issue needs clarity that one does definitely and i think the the reason that it got brought up

00:12:09 is you know so like mutual friend of you and i john harris you know had jared moore on his show

00:12:16 before he hosted the debate you know for you know informal organic you know discussion slash debate

00:12:23 between Doug Wilson and Jared Moore. But first, John did an episode where he had Jared Moore.

00:12:27 They're talking about concupiscence, which to define that, it's basically sin at the level

00:12:32 of desire, which is clearly a biblical principle we find in the book of James, that sin ultimately

00:12:39 gets its start in our desire, right? Why do you sin? Is it not because of your evil desires?

00:12:44 You covet and do not have, so you commit murder. So these things can be tracked back

00:12:48 to the level of desire. That's where sin begins. And so sin is not only sin once it manifests

00:12:56 itself outwardly in terms of our actions or our speech, but we can sin at the level of thought,

00:13:01 and we can sin even at the level of desires and certain urges. And Doug Wilson had some material

00:13:08 on the record from the past that Jared Moore threw out there saying, you know, well, on this

00:13:13 concupiscence issue and guys like, you know, revoice, you know, who are saying it's cool to

00:13:19 cuddle, you know, with your boyfriend, as long as you don't, you know, commit sodomy, you know, 0.98

00:13:23 those kind of, you know, guys who are just straight up gay, those guys are gay, they should 0.99

00:13:26 not be in the pastorate, they really shouldn't even be granted membership in a local church, 0.98

00:13:31 unless they repent of that and actually reject that identity. They're still identifying as a

00:13:35 gay Christian, which is like being a jumbo shrimp, you know, or intelligent Joe Biden, it's an 0.90

00:13:41 oxymoron. That's just not, it's a misnomer. And so there's problems with all that. But for me, 0.97

00:13:47 it's like Jared Moore threw him out there and cited some of Doug Wilson's older work. And one

00:13:52 of the things that I just want to consider, because when they talked, when Jared Moore and

00:13:55 Doug Wilson actually talked together on John's show, Jared Moore was super respectful and he

00:14:01 kept pressing Doug in good ways where Doug needed to be pressed. And he did it respectfully and

00:14:07 those kinds of things. But initially I was just like, all right, well, wait a second. This needs

00:14:13 clarity. It needs to be brought up, but I think it should be done so respectfully. And one of the

00:14:17 things that should be considered, I'll just, I'm going to be frank. You and I are not in this

00:14:22 problem. John Harris is not in this problem. I don't know about Jared Moore. I don't know how

00:14:26 long he's been in ministry or had a public platform. But one of the reasons we're not in

00:14:30 this problem is because we didn't have any notoriety or any platform or really any recorded

00:14:36 material from 12 years ago or 10 years ago. Like, I don't, like, if there were, I had some old

00:14:43 sermons, you can't find them. They were probably awesome, right? Nope. They're deleted. They're

00:14:50 gone, you know, down the memory hole. My doing. So my point is like, when you have someone like

00:14:56 Doug Wilson, who's been ministering for the most part, very faithfully for 40 something years at

00:15:03 this point uh you're just you're gonna have some things on record where it's like you missed it

00:15:08 and not just you missed it sometimes there's like you didn't even completely miss it but they're like

00:15:14 the whole culture and even church culture was thinking in a different direction so like when

00:15:20 doug says like we have gay christians you know in good standing um in our you know doug even

00:15:25 admitted i would never say it like that again that but that wasn't that just wasn't a part of

00:15:30 the conversation, we were not collectively thinking about what that meant and all the

00:15:35 implications. And I see now why that is not a helpful phrase. I would not say it like that

00:15:39 again, but you're, you know, you're going back to 10 years. So anyways, what do you think?

00:15:45 Yeah. Well, I think here's the thing, you know, I, I, I appreciate the willingness to kind of,

00:15:54 because doug is really good at this like anyone who's ever had a problem with him

00:15:59 you know if you want to discuss something with him and go back and forth and kick some ideas

00:16:05 around or whatever he's willing to do it you know what i mean and i i respect that about him

00:16:09 um and i think that sometimes so so so here's the thing my my read on on the whole situation

00:16:14 is a little different and and maybe it's because i didn't really see a lot of the back and forth

00:16:19 right away uh but i thought jared was pretty respectful i think that you know there were

00:16:24 some bombastic things said um and some of that in my opinion is to grab some attention to get

00:16:29 some attention to it which i think is valid um but what i'm more concerned with not so much as

00:16:34 how like how jared um kind of brought attention to it i'm more i'm more concerned with like

00:16:40 as a bystander as someone who's watching this what do i then go and do what do i think like

00:16:45 do i do i do i do i follow this thread do i do i pursue this do i think about this do i just get

00:16:50 really offended and stuff like that because i i actually thought a lot of the debate that i saw

00:16:55 was super healthy and super respectful and i'm glad to see that the the the debate that they did

00:17:00 on john's show i haven't actually watched that in its entirety yet i'm glad that you you thought

00:17:04 that was respectful too because that's really good because it's necessary to do that right

00:17:08 um one thing that i i i'm glad also to hear that that that doug said he wouldn't say that again

00:17:16 right he wouldn't say it that way right i can understand that because there's just certain

00:17:20 terms that that we we can see with clarity now that are so uh slippery that we didn't see at the

00:17:28 time right right what i what i what i what i what i what i fear though and this is what i worry about

00:17:34 sometimes is where you kind of like you you i'm not saying doug did this but but this happens a

00:17:41 lot with evangelical debates where they have something that they said that they regret saying

00:17:46 but they don't actually take it back they just want to pretend it never happened i know that's

00:17:50 what we can't do that doesn't sharpen anything that just muddies everything you know where it's

00:17:55 like yeah you know like it's out there you don't you just pretend like you never said it and you

00:17:59 change direction that happens all the time and that's like what what i think needs to be avoided

00:18:04 like the play because that's it's not and and some people are like well it's you're not repenting if

00:18:08 you're not acknowledging it yeah i guess that's true but i'm i'm more concerned with like the

00:18:12 accuracy here so if you if you change your mind that's okay tell me why you know what i mean

00:18:18 that's i'm talking about like sharpening like respecting and and sharpening the people because

00:18:25 we need to understand the clarity here i'm glad doug said he wouldn't say that again i'm i don't

00:18:29 know if he said if he explained why but i can easily see why you wouldn't want to say it that

00:18:33 way again right um yeah i think yeah no you're right like the accuracy truth matters um and and

00:18:41 actually telling us why. I think that's really helpful. You and I have talked about that before,

00:18:45 but being able to say, all right, this is what I said. This is what I'm saying now. You might

00:18:49 notice that the two contradict one another. There's a difference here. And the reason why

00:18:54 I've changed on this position is because dot, dot, dot. And the reason why the why matters is because

00:19:00 it's not just that issue that's ultimately within the light of concern. I want to see

00:19:08 that you're the type of person who can think biblically and actually is able to eat crow

00:19:15 from time to time and exercise humility and be thoughtful and these kinds of things.

00:19:19 Because if I see you change on a position and you tell me why, how are you more sanctified

00:19:27 today than you were when you made the original remarks?

00:19:31 How are you more mature?

00:19:32 How are you more theologically astute?

00:19:34 How have you grown?

00:19:36 How have you improved?

00:19:37 if you can convince me of that or even at least give like some some basic reasoning for why just

00:19:43 acknowledge it some people don't even acknowledge that they've changed right which is like i think

00:19:48 of al moeller right like he's now this bastion for christian nationalism apparently and he

00:19:53 doesn't even acknowledge the fact that he's was totally woke yesterday right like it's like it's

00:19:58 like it didn't even happen it's just it's just it just magically goes away like that's what i want

00:20:03 to avoid and that's why i i kind of wanted to talk about this because i think that even if you

00:20:08 disagree with doug still which i think a lot of people do i don't think anyone can say having

00:20:14 that conversation on john harris's show wasn't healthy that was totally healthy and that was

00:20:18 great and i had some great comments on on one of my videos recently that said that they think

00:20:23 they've pinpointed the the actual disagreement because there's a lot of agreement but then there

00:20:28 is actually a substantive disagreement and he kind of pinpointed it. And, and, and I think that

00:20:33 that's healthy, man, when someone can look at the debate and say, I like these guys, both of them.

00:20:38 And now I think I figured out why they disagree. That's so helpful. You know what I mean? And

00:20:43 Oh, it was helpful for me because, you know, like I, I, I like Doug Wilson. And so I, you know,

00:20:48 naturally my, I have a presupposition. I like Doug Wilson because I like what he said on other

00:20:53 issues and blah, blah, blah. So I found myself just, you know, from the outset, I'm wanting to

00:20:57 agree with Doug I want him to be right and hearing the dialogue between the two of them was really

00:21:02 helpful for me because you know and I'm happy to say this publicly and part of the reason I'm happy

00:21:06 to say this publicly is Doug has enough humility to like if I disagree with him on something he

00:21:10 doesn't care you know and he'll still you know he'll still come on the show exactly he'll still

00:21:13 come on the show and we still have some measure of relationship which is great you know because

00:21:17 he's yeah he's not a you know snowflake so all that being said though like uh Jared Moore you

00:21:22 know you know slowly whittled him down to get to exactly what you're expressing to get to that

00:21:27 okay, here's actually the disagreement. And I was like, dang it, Doug's wrong.

00:21:32 I disagree with Doug. I agree with you. Because what it came down to is just the initial urge,

00:21:37 because Doug kept giving like this example. He did say exactly like this, but in principle,

00:21:41 this is what it was. So it was like, well, if I got a guy who has a moment of temptation

00:21:47 to look at gay porn, right? But he is very quickly, in 15 seconds, 0.98

00:21:56 he shuts that urge down um he you know he he was on the laptop but he doesn't click on anything and

00:22:03 he he closes his laptop and um then you know praise god um and he doesn't need to confess that

00:22:09 um and and jared more just kept pressing he's like well and and and the example kind of changed

00:22:14 to where it's like um well if there's a guy who just has one second not 15 that was crazy you

00:22:19 know like but one second and you know but then jared pressed again and said like but that's

00:22:24 that urge is the sin. That urge is the sin. And Doug's saying, well, that's the sinful nature.

00:22:33 And I would have a few problems with that. Number one, yes, we have a sinful nature. We believe in

00:22:39 that. We're totally depraved from the womb until Christ saves us. But one, we have a new nature

00:22:44 now. We're new creatures in Christ Jesus. Sin still resides within the members of our being.

00:22:49 That's Romans 7. So there's still a sense of what sin, but this is something people need to

00:22:54 understand. Per Romans 7, and the way that I would read Romans 7 as somebody who's thoroughly

00:22:58 reformed on the doctrine of total depravity and these kinds of things, Romans 7 is essentially

00:23:06 saying that the Christian is not totally depraved. And I think that's something reformed guys need

00:23:10 to get out of the... It's like, well, I'm just totally depraved. Are you saved? Because if you're

00:23:14 saved, you're not totally depraved. Now, what you still have is you still have the flesh. And as

00:23:19 long as we're in this life, we still have the flesh and there are sinful desires which reside

00:23:24 within the members of my being. So my flesh still has a propensity towards sin, but that's different

00:23:31 than the sin nature. See, the unbeliever has the flesh and the sin nature. So to use like an analogy, 1.00

00:23:37 if you're thinking like an egg, right, you got the egg white and you got the yolk, you know, 1.00

00:23:42 and let's say they're both bad, you know, like the unbeliever has the white, you know, the white, 1.00

00:23:48 egg whites and that's the flesh and that's bent towards sin. It has a propensity towards sinful 0.99

00:23:54 desires. And then they've got the yellow egg yolk and that's the sin nature. And it's also bad.

00:24:00 Well, the Christian still has the egg white and the fleshly sin. Sin still resides within his 1.00

00:24:06 flesh, but the yolk has been transferred out and in its place is some chocolate goodness center

00:24:11 or whatever. And that's different. But the problem is that the last thing I'm going to say is just

00:24:16 the problem that I think of is, yes, sin still resides within the members of my being. I don't

00:24:21 need to confess 24-7 for having sin within the members of my flesh. But there's something to be

00:24:27 said for when the urge becomes conscience. And that's what Jared put his finger on and said,

00:24:32 but wait a second, because you're not just talking about going through the day as you're

00:24:38 driving in your car to work or as you're kissing your daughters and praying over them as they go

00:24:42 to sleep, you're talking about a conscious, specific moment where you had thoughts, conscious

00:24:48 thoughts of desire. That's what you're repenting of. You're repenting of that moment of desire

00:24:55 towards this thing. And then the last thing you add on top of that, and on top of it all,

00:25:00 this is not a desire that's out of bounds in terms of degree, like I'm desiring two wives

00:25:10 and you know, instead of one, no, this is an unnatural design. That's what Paul says in

00:25:16 Romans one, even for the unbeliever, this is debased and unnatural men exchange natural 1.00

00:25:22 relations with women and become inflamed with lust for one another. So we're talking about not 0.98

00:25:27 just an urge, but a conscious urge that you feel that you're, you're mentally aware of thoughts

00:25:33 are involved, even if it's a second and an unnatural one at that, which is shameful, 0.98

00:25:38 even among Gentiles. And we're saying that that doesn't need to be confessed. And just to be 1.00

00:25:44 specific, I'm not saying that you need to sit in a confession booth for three hours like Luther

00:25:48 used to do before he got saved, but we're talking about confessed at least to the Lord, to the Lord

00:25:54 in prayer. That was Jared's position. I was like, oh my gosh, I can't disagree with that.

00:26:00 And so here's the thing, and this is why this is so healthy for us, because

00:26:04 you know we i'll be okay i'm just gonna be straight up keep it 100 honest with you here

00:26:11 so when i saw this controversy uh i kind of was like oh no infighting again that's kind of my

00:26:18 that was my initial reaction right and jared had already kind of requested to come on my channel

00:26:23 and i was happy to have him because i i'd had him we had had him on reform jellicle when that was a

00:26:28 thing a long time ago and um anyway so i was like almost like oh no and he's gonna be in my channel

00:26:33 now. Now I'm going to get in this controversy. I was almost dreading it for maybe a little more

00:26:39 than 15 seconds. I'll give you that. A little more than 15. But when I thought about it a second

00:26:45 time, I was like, that reaction where I just don't want to cause any trouble. I have that.

00:26:50 Believe it or not, I have that reaction all the time. We got to sometimes just swallow,

00:26:56 take a deep breath, take a nice, good, hard swallow, and just be like, look,

00:27:00 this we need to figure this one out we need to hash this out into it's not that i hate you it's

00:27:05 not that i hate we hate each other it's not that we're gonna all be in a you know firing squad

00:27:09 shooting each other and stuff like that this is the definition of ironing iron sharpening iron

00:27:15 and it's not necessarily a peaceful process all the time yeah i don't know if you've ever seen

00:27:20 somebody make a sword uh uh joel but it's violent you know what i mean there's there's hammering

00:27:26 there's sparks flying it's yeah there's heat and so if that's the if that's the imagery we have

00:27:33 for sharpening each other you know how you would like sharpen a sword or make a sword um it's okay

00:27:39 to let the sparks fly a little bit just so long as you're committed at the end of the day uh to

00:27:44 to the church and each other you know what i mean you know i i think that i'll be honest man i i've

00:27:51 got like a, a very, I, when I was younger, I had a very effeminate training on how to deal with

00:28:00 conflict and how to deal with this kind of stuff. Um, but I got it. You have to reject that kind of

00:28:07 stuff, especially as, as men, you know, I know you probably have female subscribers too, but mostly

00:28:11 probably male. Um, we've got to, we've got to reject that and recognize that, you know, at the

00:28:17 end of the day like guys guys guys and girls communicate differently so if you grew up with

00:28:21 mostly female teachers or female um you know sunday school teachers and stuff like that there's a

00:28:26 chance that your view on on conflict is a little skewed right um we can we can got guys i don't

00:28:33 know i don't know if i told you about this one joel maybe on the last episode i can't remember

00:28:36 but i saw this uh this this post on uh on gab or something like that where there was this guy who

00:28:42 had a before and after pick he was really fat before and then he was like he was fit you know

00:28:47 it would have been like a year you'd exercise and he said i finally decided to get control of my

00:28:53 weight after my friend called me a fat obese idiot every day for a year i finally decided to do it

00:29:01 and and the thing is like that that doesn't compute with women right but that guy knew that 0.95

00:29:07 friend knew that yeah he was calling him a name you know and maybe a little more colorful too

00:29:12 than that but he knew his friend loved him he knew his friend had his back he knew his friend

00:29:17 didn't hate him he knew his friend didn't want bad for him and so it you know it took a little

00:29:25 sparks but it got him it got him and now he's you know a normal weight and he's got a healthy way

00:29:30 of looking at food and everything and uh he's very grateful for his friend who called them names for

00:29:35 a year straight you know what i mean right guys have to do this a little differently and i think

00:29:41 that sometimes we because let's just face it a lot of us grew up in churches that had we had a

00:29:48 lot of female influence a lot right and even the males sometimes acted like females like

00:29:55 i think fighting is good and i think we just need to make sure that we have that commitment like my

00:30:03 brother is never worried when i fight with him that i'm going to say i never want to see you

00:30:08 again he's not worried about that because he knows i'm his brother and i've got his back and

00:30:12 that's how it should be you know what i mean yep so let's talk about another disagreement that did

00:30:17 not go that way uh that seems to be still going on at least as we're recording this um so it may

00:30:24 you know the scuffle could be worse by the time this episode airs or it could be just you know

00:30:29 long forgotten but on twitter uh twitter mutual friend of you and i uh william wolf who i think

00:30:38 i could be wrong but isn't isn't doesn't he work with al moeller isn't he an intern with al moeller

00:30:43 yeah it was wasn't he like the head intern or something i think he helped him with i think he

00:30:48 helped him with like research with the briefing or something like that at least while he was there

00:30:51 because he was going to uh southern seminary but he's graduated now and um that's like being the

00:30:56 head elf for Santa. Yeah. So anyway, so William Wolfe is a solid guy and I've had him on the

00:31:06 show before. And I know that you've interacted with him also. And he's very active on Twitter.

00:31:11 I can't keep up with him. I think it seems like he posts like a hundred times a day. It's insane.

00:31:15 Yeah. I definitely don't keep up with him too much. Yeah. It's way too much. But I have noticed

00:31:20 that James Lindsay, so conceptual James, he's the renowned atheist who the Lord in His common

00:31:30 grace used. And I don't know, I guess it started in like 2017 maybe or so that at least that he

00:31:38 started kind of coming out in the public sphere and really just decimating critical race theory

00:31:45 and wokeness. And that was a gift to the church, praise God. And he really teamed up with Michael

00:31:50 O'Fallon. Michael O'Fallon's a guy who kind of was using him and bringing him to certain things.

00:31:55 And so I've learned a lot from James Lindsay in terms of how to refute critical race theory,

00:32:03 how to refute the whole DEI, diversity and equity and inclusion. Really, really helpful stuff.

00:32:10 James Lindsay is good, I think, at identifying the problem and then just blasting it. But he

00:32:16 doesn't have a solution in my opinion and there's probably a decent reason for that one of the

00:32:22 reasons would be because james lindsey hates jesus and i think that's important for us to remember

00:32:27 uh romans chapter 8 says the mind of the sinful man is hostile it's not neutral neutrality is a

00:32:33 myth and that's precisely where james and i would disagree but neutrality is a myth in biblical

00:32:37 terms uh the mind of the sinful man if you're not born again if you don't haven't been saved by

00:32:42 grace alone, through faith alone, through Christ alone, then your mind is in a state of enmity and

00:32:47 hostility, not indifference, not neutrality, but enmity and hostility towards the law of God,

00:32:53 the things of God. You cannot submit to his law, nor will you. He doesn't submit to his law,

00:32:59 so it's not something you will do, and it's not something you can do. And that's ultimately,

00:33:03 if we're thinking biblically, that is the heart and mind of James Lindsay right now,

00:33:08 as far as we can tell from every outward appearance by his own admission, unless the

00:33:13 Lord in his grace saves him. So all that being said, James has been helpful on the problem. He's

00:33:18 not super helpful on the solution. William is saying, we need Christ and we need Christ as

00:33:24 king, not just an ethereal Jesus, best buddy. I've got my little Jesus in a box and I take

00:33:34 them out from time to time, to help with internal problems, ethereal problems, emotional problems,

00:33:38 when I'm depressed or when I'm anxious, or to pray for a loved one if they're not doing well.

00:33:43 No, we need Christ as political king. We need him ruling with an iron scepter. We need Caesar to

00:33:50 submit to Christ per Romans 13. He is God's deacon. The state is not a neutral sphere. The

00:33:57 civil sphere, like everything else, is either for Christ or against him. And so we need the state,

00:34:03 the civil sphere to be in submission to the lordship of jesus christ which of course an atheist 0.97

00:34:09 shocker doesn't like that position of course of course he doesn't sure you know but the crazy

00:34:15 thing is like how this is unfolding online so you know you're you're looking at these posts

00:34:21 and it's and it's just like william's saying something here and saying something there and

00:34:25 he's snippy he's snarky so it's not like william's not like some little church mouse like he's he's

00:34:30 he's ferocious and he's going after it but then james lindsey is responding like you're a little

00:34:36 b-i-t-c-h and that's the response like straight up and it's like okay so that's not how we that's

00:34:42 not how we disagree you know and and then there are christians still backing lindsey in this

00:34:47 yeah you know what i mean it's it's weird it's very weird it's very weird you know it's the

00:34:54 opposite of jared moore and and doug wilson is what i'm saying so we're giving two examples right

00:34:58 So, like, one's a good one, one's a bad one.

00:35:00 And I'm very glad that it is the opposite because here's the thing.

00:35:04 Like, obviously, the Bible talks about how we should strive to be at peace as much as it depends on us to be at peace with people, right?

00:35:13 We don't want to cause problems.

00:35:15 We don't want to cause, you know, fights just for the sake of it.

00:35:18 But the thing is, like, our mission is going to cause problems because the thing is, like, you know, people who hate Christ don't like hearing that he's the king and we have to actually act like it and we have to order our lives according to it and all of this kind of stuff.

00:35:37 And they really don't like hearing that. And so there is really no peace between us so long as we're on this mission. Right.

00:35:47 You know, we can, we can be friendly with guys like James Lindsay, you know, honestly, he always seemed like the kind of guy that I could grab a beer with, you know, and, and hang out and, and, and chat with him. That's what he seems like. I mean, I don't know if he's like that, but, but that's what he seems like.

00:36:00 Um, but at the end of the day, we're just coming at, at this from completely different planets, you know what I mean? Very different planets. And so, um, any, any agreement we have on, on anything, you know, is it's, it's really kind of just agreement on the surface more than anything.

00:36:21 and so of course you know it's not surprising to see responses of like like that like where

00:36:30 he's just kind of cursing and you know you know making jokes and stuff like that that's not

00:36:34 surprising um i they're really it shouldn't look the same as jared versus doug wilson right because

00:36:42 it's a total there's just coming at it from completely different perspective we have a

00:36:47 different standard that's a completely different standard we have a different standard for

00:36:51 everything that we do including how we disagree like there are christian standards for every

00:36:56 everything in all of human life including uh disagreeing with somebody else and james lindsey

00:37:02 doesn't have that standard in his position he wants to you know to defend with every bone in

00:37:07 his body to his dying breath um yeah no standards that's his but that's that's what he wants to give

00:37:12 his life for is that um that you know like that freedom of speech means absolute freedom of speech

00:37:18 you can say anything yeah always when the reality is it's not you know rush dooney is so helpful

00:37:24 just that whole you know catchphrase of it's not whether but which there's always going to be a

00:37:29 reigning orthodoxy there's always there's always going to be a theocracy see that's the crazy thing

00:37:33 is like oh well we don't want a theocracy um what do you think the branch covidians for the last

00:37:39 three years have been all about you think that's not a deity that's not a religion of course it's

00:37:44 a religion it's certainly not science right it's the science tm right which is which is a religion

00:37:49 there's nothing scientific about it you know take the booster do this like and with without backing

00:37:55 anything up and if you disagree what what happens to you well you get freedom of speech no you don't

00:38:00 you get shadow banned you get blackmailed you lose your job you get kicked off of this you know all

00:38:07 these different things. So the point is, there's never a perfect freedom of speech. And I think

00:38:13 what we have to realize is, again, it's not whether but which, there's always a reigning

00:38:18 orthodoxy. By way of consequence, whatever the orthodoxy is, things that are outside of that,

00:38:23 especially things way outside of that, are going to be labeled as blasphemy. And there's always

00:38:28 going to be some penalty, whether it's a cultural, like society penalizes you by just,

00:38:34 we're not going to interact with you anymore. You don't get invited to our gatherings anymore.

00:38:39 You're losing friends over it, or whether it's a civil penalty. So whether it's a social penalty,

00:38:43 more organic or a formal civil penalty, there's always an orthodoxy. There's always blasphemy.

00:38:48 There's always a standard. It's not whether, but which. And there's always a God. That standard

00:38:54 flows from the God. There's always a theocracy, this idea that we don't need theocracy. Let's

00:38:59 just do this classical you know liberalism let's just do this but no there's always a god there's

00:39:05 always a god and and if if there is no god truly then government is the god government is the

00:39:12 theocracy in and of itself it becomes the deity and so to me it's inescapable but guys guys still

00:39:20 keep pushing back and not not so charitably this is the thing like like james lindsey just to stay

00:39:26 on him for a second. Like you, you, you had to see this coming, right? So you, what you said

00:39:32 was perfect. You know, he's really good at identifying problems, right? Yes. He might not

00:39:37 know exactly why it's a problem, but, but at the end of the day, he does have some moral compass

00:39:42 because God created him to have one, right? So, so he has it because God put it there and, um,

00:39:48 he's inconsistent with it and he's not going to be, you know, he's not going to, he's not going

00:39:52 to serve you know god he's going to do whatever he wants but but he does have some stuff so he can

00:39:57 he can know the difference between right and wrong we all understand that so he's good at that

00:40:02 but we all i thought to be honest joel i thought we all kind of knew that like there'd be a limit

00:40:09 to being able to you know use joel's or i'm not not joel's uh james's stuff right exactly but but

00:40:16 But but but the more time passed, the more I didn't see any limits.

00:40:21 Like I saw him, you know, talking about what pastors ought to do.

00:40:25 And I'm like, what are you talking about?

00:40:27 Right.

00:40:27 We're not in we're not on the same team.

00:40:30 Pastors shouldn't do anything because you think they should do it.

00:40:33 Like, what are you even talking about?

00:40:34 And then he starts talking about theology and how, you know, some people are not orthodox.

00:40:38 And I'm just like, there's no there's no breaks on this train, is there?

00:40:42 And maybe maybe we were naive, right?

00:40:44 Like we shouldn't have even maybe, you know, let him in the, the circles in the first place.

00:40:49 But, but the point is like, like you can be friends with him.

00:40:52 You can use his stuff.

00:40:53 You can use his material, but, but make sure you're just using it and not leaning on it.

00:40:57 Right.

00:40:58 Because he's got nothing for you as far as a replacement for this.

00:41:02 He's got no way to beat this.

00:41:04 I saw he, he kind of laughed at something I said about his little tantrum he's had the

00:41:08 last few days.

00:41:09 And it is a tantrum.

00:41:10 He's having a little tantrum.

00:41:11 and and he he said that his only goal is that when guys like me fall off the cliff that he

00:41:18 maintains the movement and i didn't respond to that but like what movement i'm not nobody's

00:41:24 we shouldn't be in your movement i don't know what your movement is i don't know how you even have

00:41:29 an atheistic movement i don't even know what that's supposed to even mean but like i want no

00:41:34 part of it and no christian should movement you're holding together a movement this is the thing like

00:41:39 Like Andrew Torber gets a lot of grief, but he said a lot of right things.

00:41:44 And one of the right things he said is, unfortunately, and I say fortunately, 0.97

00:41:48 but if you're not a Christian, you cannot be a leader in this. 0.98

00:41:52 You just can't.

00:41:53 You're not on the same page. 1.00

00:41:55 We can work together to stop transsexual story hour, but that's about the limit. 1.00

00:42:00 We can't really, beyond that, I'm glad you know that transsexual story hour is bad, 1.00

00:42:05 but beyond that, we really don't have much to do with each other. 1.00

00:42:09 Right.

00:42:10 You know what I mean?

00:42:10 Yep, that's absolutely right.

00:42:12 James Lindsay is Deborah, I think is the way that I would say it, right?

00:42:15 So Deborah, right?

00:42:17 Those are fighting words, man.

00:42:18 Call them a girl. 1.00

00:42:19 Every feminist, you know, heretical theologian and egalitarian. 0.95

00:42:24 They love Deborah. 1.00

00:42:25 Right, they love Deborah.

00:42:26 So Deborah, you know, for the listener, if you're not familiar, she was one of the judges when there wasn't a king, right?

00:42:32 So things are chaotic.

00:42:33 during chaotic times. Sometimes everybody's doing what they see as right in their own eyes. There's

00:42:40 no king in Israel. Every man does what is right in his own eyes. Things are chaotic, and a lot of

00:42:45 the men are being cowardly, especially those men who are in positions of authority, who are allowing

00:42:50 for the chaos to happen, who aren't actually leading, who aren't standing up and defeating 0.86

00:42:54 the enemies and all these kind of stuff. And I think it's Barak, I think is his name, but Barak

00:42:58 was the general at the time and he asked Debra to go with him into battle a woman right he's like

00:43:05 hey will you I mean you know it's just even in 2023 I feel like that would be embarrassing you

00:43:10 know like if if there's like some kind of battle and you know and I'm going and asking my wife hey

00:43:15 would you come with me you know like we need to go and fight this these there's two guys over there

00:43:21 and we need to fight them and would you would you come with me because I could really use your help

00:43:25 I'm nervous to go by myself, right?

00:43:27 That's just, I mean, that's embarrassing.

00:43:29 It's shameful.

00:43:29 And Deborah says as much. 1.00

00:43:31 She says, I'll go, but just know that the glory, you know, the glory will go to a woman, right?

00:43:39 And, you know, and what she's saying is like, I'll go with you. 0.97

00:43:43 You really shouldn't be asking me to go.

00:43:45 This is not, this is kind of shameful.

00:43:48 And so my point is this, James Lindsay is Deborah.

00:43:50 And what I mean is James, it's like, well, how did we get a James Lindsay?

00:43:54 Where did he come from?

00:43:55 I'll tell you where he came from.

00:43:56 He came because all the barracks, Al Mohler, Russell Moore, Tim Keller, right?

00:44:03 The list goes on up.

00:44:03 Mark Dever, right?

00:44:05 David Platt, all the barracks, Matt Chandler, wouldn't do anything.

00:44:13 They just, they wouldn't do anything.

00:44:14 And so here comes Debra, right? 0.75

00:44:17 And so my point is, okay, so Debra comes in and wins the day and actually defeats, you

00:44:23 know? 1.00

00:44:23 because here's the deal. Yeah, there's plenty of wokeness going on, but it's changed. We need to

00:44:28 be honest, right? Because some of us on the conservative side, we need to be honest about

00:44:31 this because we're building our platforms and our ministries off of wokeness. And I don't want to be

00:44:35 that guy. I don't want to be secretly rooting for my enemy to stay in power so that I have

00:44:43 something to whine about so that people watch me on YouTube. I want wokeness to die. And if that 1.00

00:44:48 eradicates like we don't really need joel anymore and what like fine praise god praise god um and i

00:44:55 think if we're if we're going to be honest i think wokeness is on its last leg i think it's on its

00:44:59 way out and i feel like something has shifted from 2020 with the summer of love and mostly

00:45:04 peaceful riots and the whole country was on fire and george floyd st george and and now

00:45:09 in the beginning of 2023 it's different plenty of woke guys still out there i get it but it's

00:45:14 different. You can say things now. The Overton window has shifted. It has officially shifted.

00:45:20 You can say things now. I am saying things now, and I don't get near as much flack as I would

00:45:25 have just three years ago, two and a half years ago. And so my point is, praise God for Deborah.

00:45:32 Praise God for James Lindsay. He's a big part of that. And the Bible says, give honor to where

00:45:37 honor is due. And that's not just for Christians. If an unbeliever does something that's honorable,

00:45:41 praise God. So I want to give him honor for that. And I want to honor Michael O'Fallon for bringing

00:45:46 him to the table. Michael O'Fallon, I'm sure even if Michael O'Fallon was on this podcast, he would

00:45:51 say, yeah, he wasn't the first guy I was looking for, but I'm looking at all my SBC guys that I

00:45:56 trusted over the years and none of them are anywhere to be found. So yeah, so then I have to

00:46:00 get, so James Lindsay is God's indictment of big Eva. That's what he is. James Lindsay is God's

00:46:07 indictment of big eva but here's the problem though um god's judgments are are um well you

00:46:14 just when god sends a judgment it's it squelches evil but it also it also shames the cowardly

00:46:21 righteous who were standing on the sidelines and now we're into the shame uh right so god uses the

00:46:26 hammer of james lindsey the deborah you know the the indictment against big even their cowardice

00:46:31 and all these kinds of things. And he crushed up wokeness. But now we, as Christians, we have to

00:46:37 deal with James Lindsay because he's been let in the door and given prominent spotlight because

00:46:41 all these other guys who, the barracks who should have been fighting, weren't fighting.

00:46:45 And now we're trying to say, well, okay, but here's the deal. Our goal was not to get back

00:46:51 to the 1990s. Like our goal is a little bit bigger than that. And we're not even trying

00:46:57 to get back to 1776 we're not trying to get to a principled uh principled pluralism we're not

00:47:04 trying to because pluralism just for the record our listeners need to know this pluralism is just

00:47:08 a euphemism for poly polytheism we're not polytheist we're not polytheist we are christians

00:47:16 we believe in one god one god over heaven and earth his will be done on earth as it is in heaven

00:47:22 That's what, and James Lindsay is not going to take us there.

00:47:26 And the only reason James Lindsay was helpful at all is because we got so far off the rails.

00:47:32 And I'm talking about the church judgment. 0.89

00:47:34 When God sends judgment, it starts with the church. 0.63

00:47:36 The church got so far off the rails that an atheist who spent his early life trying to 1.00

00:47:41 take out Christianity, the new atheist, I mean, hating Christ, an atheist was an improvement 0.90

00:47:47 from, say it like that, a guy from the New Atheist Movement trying to take out the church 0.90

00:47:54 as his life's mission. We got in such a bad position as the evangelical church. That guy

00:48:01 was an improvement on the Southern Baptist Convention. You know what I mean? If I can

00:48:06 put it that way. But now, by God's grace, as the Overton window is shifting, as guys are starting

00:48:10 to have courage, as we're starting to make some headway, James Lindsay is saying, I'm sorry,

00:48:16 guys we're done this is as far as we're going and we're saying wait a second we're going further

00:48:20 than that right fight fighting fighting with james lindsey is completely different than fighting with

00:48:26 doug wilson completely different than fighting with um with uh with jared moore because you know

00:48:33 the bible talks about you know sharpening each other and all that kind of stuff and you know as

00:48:37 as brothers you know we need to you know we need to you know if somebody's in sin if somebody's

00:48:42 doing something in error. We need to confront them. Maybe you'll win your brother, that kind

00:48:46 of thing. We've got so many verses we could draw from about how to deal with each other, right?

00:48:51 We're supposed to love one another, especially the church, within the church, loving one another,

00:48:55 right? That's how people know we're the church. But fighting with James Lindsay is totally

00:48:59 different because one of the things that James is very upset about, and I understand from his

00:49:06 perspective is that you know steven wolf in his book said that you know atheism will be stomped

00:49:12 out in in a christian nation crushed yep and and that is not controversial in the slightest right

00:49:18 atheism will be crushed yes of course every any anything any any group or organization doesn't 0.92

00:49:25 mean we're going to hunt down atheists and just kill them for no reason like that's not what we're 0.85

00:49:28 talking about but they will have no influence none that's right in a christian nations our 1.00

00:49:33 traditions or laws or customs and all that kind of stuff right our education no they will have no

00:49:38 influence that's the goal and the thing is so when you're fighting so he doesn't like that he's very 0.97

00:49:43 upset about that but the problem is he's a fool and so the bible tells us how to deal with him 0.67

00:49:48 you don't answer him uh lest lest he you be just like him so you don't act like he acts when he 0.96

00:49:53 calls you a little you know whatever you can bleep that out sorry um you don't respond in kind you

00:49:59 know what i mean you don't make fun of him in that way you don't you know rip him in that way

00:50:03 you could zing him obviously i'm not saying you can't zing him but you know but you don't answer 0.97

00:50:09 a fool you know according to his folly lest you be just like him but you do answer a fool according 0.93

00:50:13 to his folly lest he be wise in his own eyes he needs to be put in his place is bottom line 1.00

00:50:17 he's not as smart as he thinks he is he's not as clever as he thinks he is in fact he is a fool 0.99

00:50:23 I cannot think of a less respectable position to hold than atheism is the least respectable position you can have. 1.00

00:50:33 It makes much more sense to be a Muslim. 0.97

00:50:35 It makes much more sense to be even a what is the one from Utah? 0.66

00:50:41 Mormon. 0.83

00:50:42 Oh, Mormon. 0.74

00:50:42 Yeah, Mormon. 0.84

00:50:43 It makes more sense to be a Mormon. 0.98

00:50:45 It makes no sense to be a Mormon. 0.95

00:50:47 It makes no sense to be a Muslim, but it makes more than atheism is is the bottom rung. 0.66

00:50:51 you if you if you have a creator who's made himself known in everything he's created everything 0.99

00:50:58 and you and you decide you know i'm not i'm gonna reject that that's this foolish as you

00:51:06 could possibly be right right and just real quick for the record for the listeners ad is using the 0.99

00:51:10 word fool in the proper biblical sense again and again again the bible says the fool says in his 0.97

00:51:14 heart there is no god sure the fool says so the guy who says there is no god in biblical terms 0.99

00:51:19 fool is the exact word that has to be used. R.C. Sproul used to say, we celebrate fools once a 0.99

00:51:25 year on April 1st, right? And April Fool's Day. And so he said, April 1st, it should be called 0.96

00:51:32 National Atheist Day, right? And so April 1st, we can get James Lindsay a birthday card and send it

00:51:38 to him in the mail or whatever, because that is the fool according to scripture. The fool says 0.99

00:51:42 in his heart, there is no God, and we don't need fools leading the way. And if fools led us and 1.00

00:51:49 helped us to destroy a bigger fool, right? That's what it was. It was a smaller fool destroying a 1.00

00:51:54 bigger fool. All that means is like, well, thank you. We can be thankful for that. But we don't 1.00

00:52:01 then go and make him king, right? So if Deborah goes with Barak, it's to the shame, it's not to

00:52:07 glorify Deborah. It's an indictment to the shame of Barak. And when they come back and win the

00:52:14 battle, what you don't do is you don't then make Deborah queen. You don't crown her and say,

00:52:19 and now we're going to have a gynocracy. Now we're going to be led by having this woman win 1.00

00:52:26 one battle worked so well that now we're going to be underneath female leadership, 1.00

00:52:32 a female dictatorship for now on, for the rest of Israel's future. That's not what you do. What you 1.00

00:52:37 do is you say, thank you, Deborah. And then you say, shame on you, Barak, and may this never have

00:52:42 to be needed again. That's what you do. And the thing is like, and we don't have to pretend like, 0.60

00:52:48 like, you know, listen, do I want James Lindsay to be, you know, at Tom Askell's church one day

00:52:57 and hear the gospel and for God to change his heart and for him to accept the gospel? Absolutely.

00:53:02 Right. I absolutely do. And if James was just going to go quietly into the night and, you know,

00:53:09 you know i just take my hat off to him and i would i would never speak his name again

00:53:13 i don't know him like that right but i'm sure people around him do and and they you know they're

00:53:17 they're ministering to him and they're they're preaching the gospel to him and all that kind of

00:53:21 stuff i'm sure they're doing the right stuff i'm sure michael fallon is doing the right stuff that

00:53:24 he ought to be doing as a christian but the reality is he's not going quietly into the night

00:53:30 the reality is that he's decided to take up arms he's decided to fight and when the fight comes to

00:53:37 you as a christian i mean you meet him you meet him there that that's your mission you know what

00:53:42 i mean and so um he needs to be put in his place he needs to be defeated um his arguments i've read

00:53:48 through some of them and it's just like i remember this because i used to you know argue with atheists

00:53:54 in in in public and online i used to i used to go to colleges and and argue with you know punk

00:53:59 atheist kids you know they thought that were they were the smartest things ever i remember this this

00:54:04 is the old village atheist stuff right i get it you know what i mean and it's like it was always

00:54:10 there it was just kind of put off to the side when he was focused on this woke stuff but the

00:54:15 reality is he's a village atheist and he's to be dealt with and i i i you know listen i know he's

00:54:22 got people christian solid christian people around him and i and i pray that they're reaching out to

00:54:26 him because um what he's doing now is just it's embarrassing is really what it is yeah yeah and

00:54:34 And I think part of the problem, though, is that, I want to be careful with how I say this, but part of the problem is that if every Christian went to James Lindsay and said, friend, because you're not a brother, but friend, you're under the just condemnation of God.

00:54:54 You need to repent of your sins. 0.61

00:54:56 And what you're saying now, you've helped us this far, but you're not helping us anymore.

00:54:59 What you want to bring us back to culturally, politically, philosophically is exactly what

00:55:06 got us here in the first place.

00:55:08 That leads to this.

00:55:09 And we're not interested in just winding back.

00:55:12 We're not just interested in somebody who can take us from stage four cancer back to

00:55:17 stage two.

00:55:19 We want someone who can cure cancer. 0.98

00:55:21 But the problem is not every Christian is saying that.

00:55:25 like christians we're divided because we don't want the same thing you and i ad see you and i

00:55:32 we want christ as king over not just our nation but every nation in the world we want the nation

00:55:38 the nations are his heritage we want the nations to flock to him to to to we we want we want the

00:55:47 whole earth to be covered with the glory of god with the knowledge of god as the seas as the water

00:55:53 to cover the seas. We want his rule. We want his reign, and we want to see his will done on earth

00:55:59 as it is in heaven. But it's not just that we have a disagreement on that point with James.

00:56:05 We have a disagreement on that point with the majority of evangelical Christians.

00:56:11 Yeah. The truth is that there's a lot of Christians that are public atheists. In other

00:56:16 words, in their public life, there's literally no difference between them and the classically

00:56:22 liberal atheist and the classically liberal muslim and the classically liberal whatever

00:56:26 mormon um there's literally no difference in their public life and that's a big problem

00:56:30 that's a huge problem and um one of the many reasons why this thing has to be hashed out 0.64

00:56:38 you know aggressively yep yep absolutely all right well so doug wilson jared moore good good

00:56:46 way to disagree that said i found myself on jared moore's side which was a bummer because i love

00:56:53 doug i mean doug wilson has been so faithful done so many great things and this is this is the thing

00:56:58 but i did disagree with him i find myself in a great spot because i um i i've i've disagreed

00:57:06 with doug i think twice and this is one of them and the other one was something to do with covid

00:57:11 lockdowns and i gotta say i've come out on top both times so oh wow look at you so the see that's

00:57:18 the beauty is um if if you want to be when i pick all the battles exactly i win 100 of the time

00:57:24 exactly if you want to be doug wilson superior what you do is like right because there's a

00:57:28 trillion theological positions and implications so what you do is you haven't thought of half of

00:57:32 those you just read what he thought about it and say yeah that's pretty good that's my position

00:57:36 thanks for doing all the legwork and then on the two positions and then on the two positions that

00:57:41 he actually is wrong on is probably only two on those you say look at me so i'm just as good as

00:57:46 doug wilson plus two you know plus two yeah so maybe it's three i don't even remember but yeah

00:57:52 that's that's how you do it that's how you do it that's how you write about everything that's

00:57:56 exactly you just only just ride ride his coattails on every issue for the last 40 years except for

00:58:02 too that's that's where you take the opportunity to distinguish yourself there's doug wilson's of

00:58:06 the world we're grateful for those guys but then there's me anyway so but that that was a good that

00:58:12 was a good way to disagree doug was wrong and we're not saying it's a good way to disagree

00:58:16 because because in the end of that disagreement they came to the same conclusion that's not what

00:58:20 we're saying we're saying what the whole point of this episode is to say it's not that jared

00:58:25 moore and doug wilson disagreed well because they eventually came to the same conclusion

00:58:29 No, the episode left off with, you know, when they got on there with John, they still disagreed.

00:58:35 But it was good because number one, we got to substantive arguments to where someone like you or I, right, the third party watching could actually learn something.

00:58:44 It was actually helpful and useful and helped me figure out what I thought about that particular issue.

00:58:50 And it was charitable.

00:58:51 It was loving.

00:58:52 Nobody was saying that Doug's a heretic, right?

00:58:54 A ton of people say that, but they weren't the guys in that conversation.

00:58:58 Exactly.

00:58:58 Exactly. So I, you know, and Doug wasn't calling them heretics. That was good. And then the James

00:59:03 Lindsay and William Wolfe and other guys who've jumped in the ring, right? Everybody's, you know,

00:59:08 seems to get in a tiff every now and then with James Lindsay. And, you know, I, you know, me and

00:59:12 I had Stephen Wolfe on my show, not William Wolfe, but Stephen Wolfe who wrote, you know,

00:59:16 the case for Christian nationalism. And I remember James Lindsay, as soon as he got out of Twitter

00:59:20 jail, you know, he had, he had had like a, well, he just posted it, you know, he like shared the

00:59:25 link of, of me and Stephen Wolf, uh, interviewing him on his book, you know, about Christian

00:59:30 nationalism. And he said, uh, these are the, the fed ops, you know, who, who, you know, whatever,

00:59:34 like this is a, this is a, a psyop or whatever. I don't know what he, but he was literally like

00:59:39 saying, this can't be real. It's unreal. It's like, I'm telling you, it's just so amazing.

00:59:45 I don't know, Joel, if you spent any time arguing with atheists. I, like I said, I went to college

00:59:49 campuses. I even went to that atheist, uh, rally in DC. They held, uh, the reason rally. I went

00:59:55 there um and i remember i just remember listening to some of the speeches and talking to people 1.00

01:00:01 it's just like these people think they're so smart and they're idiots they're really actually 0.98

01:00:06 pretty dumb a lot of them and and and then you see like james he's he's obviously intelligent 1.00

01:00:11 he's a good communicator and and and and this thing has turned him into it's a psyop everything 0.99

01:00:17 he's gone he's look he sounds crazy yeah like and and the thing is like i'm sure there's agents

01:00:25 involved in various things i i still believe that that whole situation with um with um

01:00:32 what's his face it's not even worth mentioning but that whole controversy with uh steven wolf's

01:00:37 friend and all that i think that there was i think there's something going on there um i can't prove

01:00:42 so i can't really give you why i think that but but but i'm sure there are some like ops going

01:00:47 on i mean why wouldn't there be these guys are sick but like he just sounds crazy now you know

01:00:54 he sounds like a village atheist this is the old school stuff that i remember back in the day them

01:00:59 talking about right you ever read is give a read joel the uh the handbook for creating atheists

01:01:04 one of his one of his friends wrote that that uh professor uh peter bogosian yeah i know who that

01:01:10 is yeah but i that's one him and james are pretty close i think he wrote this book called a manual

01:01:16 for creating atheists it's basically he envisioned i i kid you not this is this is where these guys

01:01:21 are at he envisioned creating you know how like we have a lot of street preachers joel and you go

01:01:26 out you preach the gospel you do you know apologetics a lot of times in those conversations

01:01:30 come up um he was going to create what he called street epistemologists to go out and convert people

01:01:38 into atheism uh you know and he they were street they weren't street preachers they were street 0.95

01:01:44 epistemologists he wrote a whole book about it and it's like you're crazy dude you're actually 0.95

01:01:52 a nut that's what you are yeah well he just well it's it's exactly what jesus says you're either 0.93

01:01:56 for me or against me there is no neutrality and i think that's what's important to remember is

01:02:00 that at the end of the day the person who's not with christ is somebody who um they don't want

01:02:06 just a neutral playing field where everybody can, you know, go along to get along. No, they want to

01:02:11 convert people to atheism. They want to spread the joy of hatred of God, right? That, you know,

01:02:18 that's what they want. And they promise you freedom. You'll be a free thinker, you know,

01:02:22 and things like that. It's pretty evil. You know, I'm joking about it because it just sounds so

01:02:26 stupid, you know, street epistemologist, but it's pretty evil. And I'm not saying, by the way, 0.99

01:02:31 I'm not saying Lindsay was associated with that. I don't know that he was or not. I'm just saying

01:02:34 like this is the level like these are like the big thinkers in atheism this this is what we're

01:02:39 dealing with right so it's like yeah which is an army of street epistemologists i'm sure that's

01:02:44 going to get off the ground do you remember when they try to do the the church thing they were

01:02:47 going to do the sunday meetings do you remember that joel no they had a whole movement it's called

01:02:52 the sunday meeting and it was going to be just like church but not church they were going to

01:02:55 have a motivational speech uh with a an intellectual person they were going to sing

01:03:00 songs atheist songs unto the atheist god i don't know maybe maybe like rock song i don't know what

01:03:06 they were going to do but they they envision this whole thing where we're going to have

01:03:09 sunday meetings for atheists you wonder how long that lasts probably probably probably two weeks 1.00

01:03:15 because it's stupid and everybody knows it's stupid yeah i don't know maybe maybe it's still 1.00

01:03:20 going on i don't know if it's really that's it's dumb it's funny you said the epista you know the 1.00

01:03:25 epistemologists, you know, like versus a street evangelist, how you said, like how it's evil. 0.61

01:03:31 And, and just, just to clarify, if somebody is saying, well, you're saying that's evil,

01:03:35 but you know, the atheist thinks that you doing evangelism is evil. This is why objectively they're

01:03:39 not equivalent. They're not equivalent because from the atheist giving, you know, and I'm not

01:03:44 going to straw man it. I want to steal man the opposing position. The best that they could think

01:03:50 is that religion is oppressive, right? That religion is like a shackle. So people who

01:03:56 believe in the triune God, these are oppressed people, these are shackled people, and they're

01:04:02 not as happy as they could be if they were liberated from religion. But by James Lindsay's

01:04:08 own position, by his own admission, Christians are fairly happy people in America. And the history of

01:04:16 America being predominantly Christian, and Christian people in the 1950s, these are people

01:04:22 who are reasonably happy. So you're really, what you're talking about is with your street

01:04:26 epistemologist is taking people who are reasonably happy, but maybe making them a little bit happier

01:04:31 because now maybe their conscience isn't beating them up quite as much. For the Christian evangelist,

01:04:37 that's the street epistemologist, the atheist, for the street evangelist, you're talking about 0.88

01:04:42 saving people from going to hell for eternity. So we're going to have this team of epistemologists

01:04:49 to save people from being kind of happy so that they can be really happy for the next 50 years,

01:04:55 and then they're dust, and that's it. And then the other position is, no, our motivation is we're

01:05:01 doing this first and foremost in obedience to God, and then secondarily out of love for neighbor

01:05:04 because we're talking about the eternal state of somebody not being reasonably happy for 50 years

01:05:09 versus really happy for the next 50 years, but somebody for eons and eons and eons and eons

01:05:14 into eternity under the just wrath of God, miserable, wishing that they could die, but not

01:05:19 able to versus eternal bliss in the presence of the triune God forever. That's the difference.

01:05:25 So the point is, yeah, the atheists could say of the Christian evangelists and say,

01:05:30 I disagree with what you're doing, but you can't call it evil. You could call us insane. You could

01:05:35 call us confused, you could call us wrong, but you can't call it evil. Not morally evil, ill-willed

01:05:41 towards, but for the epistemologists, what you have to say for the street epistemologists on

01:05:46 the atheist side, trying to convert an atheist evangelist, that really is evil in the sense that

01:05:53 you're going out and yelling at people and arguing with people and confusing people and all these

01:06:01 things for a difference that is nothing, and at best, to steel man the opponent, it's negligible

01:06:09 and temporary. I regret to inform you that the Sunday Assemblies thing is still going on.

01:06:15 There's not very many of them, but they still happen. Well, let's get back to me in 2,000

01:06:21 years. Let's see if they can hit our record. That's right. That's right. Oh, man. The closest

01:06:25 one to you is in Nashville, Sunday Assembly Nashville. I'm surprised there's not one in

01:06:29 Austin, honestly, I'm surprised. 0.92

01:06:31 Yeah, there's so few of them, so, but yeah, so I, you know, it looks really dumb, so at 0.99

01:06:38 least it's still dumb. 0.99

01:06:40 Yeah, well, there you go. 0.94

01:06:41 All right, well, anyway, so that's, you know, how do we disagree with people?

01:06:45 We need to do it charitably, but charitably doesn't mean that we can't, you know, like 0.95

01:06:50 we're using words like dumb, we're using words like foolish, because these are biblical words. 1.00

01:06:53 The Bible talks about being dumb, it talks about being foolish, it talks about stupid. 1.00

01:06:58 The word stupid is used in the Bible, not just fool, right? 1.00

01:07:02 I've used stupid before and people say like, well, I wish he would have said foolish, you 1.00

01:07:06 know, because stupid is harsh and that's not a biblical word. 1.00

01:07:08 Foolish is, nope, stupid is a biblical word too. 1.00

01:07:10 That's in the Bible multiple times again and again and again. 1.00

01:07:13 So we want to be charitable.

01:07:14 We want to be respectful, but we also want to be biblical and we want to be courageous

01:07:17 and we want it to hurt. 0.99

01:07:19 We want it to hurt a little bit so that the fool becomes aware of their folly. 0.98

01:07:24 But all of this ultimately is done in a way that is seeking the highest and ultimate good of the person that we're disagreeing with. 0.97

01:07:33 It's done in love.

01:07:35 It may be sparks flying, iron sharpening iron, but it's done in love.

01:07:39 And it's done with clarity, with substance, with argument, so that people actually, the bystanders watching are better having watched.

01:07:48 They're actually learning something.

01:07:50 And I think Jared Moore and Douglas Wilson did that.

01:07:52 I think that the skirmishes with James Lindsay and William Wolfe and guys like that have not done that, and it shouldn't be a surprise because in one debate you have two Christians, in another you have Christians versus someone who in their inmost being hates the Lord Jesus Christ, and we should remember that.

01:08:08 Yeah, ultimately, you know, obviously we're not trying to destroy, you know, Doug Wilson or Jared Moore, obviously we know that, they're our brothers, we're trying to help them.

01:08:18 And honestly, it's the same with James. We don't want to destroy him and we do want to destroy his arguments, but we don't want to destroy him. But James does need to be uncomfortable with his foolishness. He needs to be made to feel uncomfortable with his denial of Christ.

01:08:36 And, um, and whatever that takes, we, we, we don't want to hurt him, but sometimes it

01:08:42 does take your, your, your, your pride to be hurt a little bit, um, to, to recognize

01:08:47 your need, you know, people need to sometimes be brought to the precipice before the, the

01:08:53 solution, the antidote, the, the, the, the way is, is apparent to them.

01:08:58 You know what I mean?

01:08:58 I know that worked for me.

01:08:59 I mean, I needed to be brought to like the, to the lowest I've ever been, you know, in

01:09:05 order for me to, to really recognize how depraved I was and how, how, how much need I had, you know

01:09:11 what I mean? The prodigal son needed that the prodigal son came to the end of himself. And then

01:09:16 he remembered, Oh wait, you know, like, you know, my dad is actually good and I can, you know what

01:09:22 I mean? Like I can actually live there, you know, like, and some people need that. And the thing is

01:09:27 like, you know, again, you don't want to like curse him out or mistreat him or lie about him

01:09:32 or doing anything like that um but but there is a certain amount of roughness that someone like

01:09:39 that needs i mean you know it's it's it's there and he needs to be brought down a peg or two

01:09:45 his cleverness isn't going to save him you know his his his his fake morality isn't going to save

01:09:50 him like his this mission this movement whatever he thinks he's leading it's not going to help him

01:09:55 at the end of the day he needs to deal with his sin and um you know i i hope i hope the people

01:10:01 around him are, are, are, are, are loving him enough to potentially even walk away from him

01:10:08 if they need to. Right. Yep. I hope so too. And the reason why it matters is because in James

01:10:13 Lindsay's world, the two gay dudes who adopted two boys and sodomized them and trafficked them 0.97

01:10:19 with other gay guys to sodomize, that can happen. And we don't like that. We think that those two 0.98

01:10:24 guys should get the death penalty, that it should be a swift capital punishment, that they should 0.98

01:10:29 be executed um right and i say that just to put it into perspective i know that that's kind of 0.98

01:10:34 dropping a you know a bomb at the end of the episode but i say that to say um what standard 0.77

01:10:39 what standard do you use to say that gay marriage isn't a thing and what standard do you use to say 0.98

01:10:45 that two gay married guys can't adopt children right we have an answer for that gay gay dudes 0.96

01:10:51 don't get married in Christ's kingdom. 1.00

01:10:56 Yeah, no accommodation.

01:10:58 No accommodation for that.

01:10:59 So they don't get married, and they sure as heck,

01:11:02 they wouldn't even get married, but they sure as heck

01:11:04 don't get to adopt children.

01:11:07 Because it's a pretty straight line.

01:11:13 It's not pun intended, but it's a pretty straight line 1.00

01:11:16 from gay marriage to molesting children. 1.00

01:11:21 you like that the pun huh so but like it's a straight my so you you can't be shocked right 0.99

01:11:27 you can't be shocked that because it is a perverse uh a perverse lifestyle so it's like oh well you 1.00

01:11:34 know just because people are gay like there are heterosexual marriages that yeah and those are 1.00

01:11:39 misnomers right um yeah there are heterosexual marriages that have um that one of the spouses 0.96

01:11:45 has abused children. That is true. Absolutely true. But the gay couple shouldn't come as a 0.99

01:11:52 surprise. That makes sense. That's not a misnomer. That's not a fluke. That's actually just the

01:11:59 consistent continuance down that path, right? We're this perverted? Why not be a little bit

01:12:07 more? And so my point is just to say that James Lindsay, his world would punish guys for sodomizing

01:12:12 children. But it wouldn't stop two guys from getting married, and it wouldn't stop those

01:12:15 two guys from adopting children, which puts them in the very situation for something like that to

01:12:20 happen in the first place. By what standard? By what standard? That's right. So, anyway.

01:12:28 Good stuff, Joel. All right, cool, AD. Thanks for coming on the show. I hope you guys enjoyed

01:12:31 this episode. AD, how can people follow you? YouTube, AD Robles, R-O-B-L-E-S. Gab is my

01:12:39 favorite, AD Robles. Again, I'm also on Twitter. Cool. All right. Thanks for coming. Appreciate

01:12:45 it. God bless. Can I be frank with you for just a second, right here at the end? Look, some of you

01:12:50 guys, you're financially supporting this ministry. And from the bottom of my heart, I say, thank you.

01:12:55 I cannot thank you enough. However, some of you, you just, you can't afford it. In fact, some of

01:13:03 you shouldn't afford it. Let's be honest. I mean, we're living in Joe Biden's ridiculous economy.

01:13:10 Our nation and our totalitarian political elites lost their minds over the last three years 0.91

01:13:18 due to COVID. We have written checks that we simply cannot cash. It doesn't matter if people

01:13:25 change the definition of a recession. We are living in a recession right now, regardless.

01:13:32 Some of you are struggling to afford a carton of eggs at the grocery store.

01:13:36 You cannot support financially this ministry at this time, nor should you, but you could

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01:13:51 Leave us a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform, iTunes, Spotify, whatever

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`witch hunt`	Both words, anywhere in the episode.
`"witch hunt"`	The exact phrase.
`witch OR hunt`	Either word.
`"alpha male" -"high value"`	The first phrase, but not the second.
`(feminist OR feminism) AND (marriage OR divorce)`	Parentheses group alternatives.
`"decline civilization"~5`	Both words within 5 words of each other.

`misogyn*`	Any word starting with "misogyn": misogyny, misogynist, misogynistic…
`feminizm~1`	Words one letter off: catches typos and transcription errors.

`person:"Andrew Tate"`	Episodes where they host, guest, or are mentioned.
`host:"Glenn Beck"`	Episodes they host.
`guest:"Jordan Peterson"`	Episodes they appear on as a guest.
`mentioned:"Andrew Tate" -host:"Andrew Tate"`	Talked about on other people's shows.
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`topics:abortion`	Episodes tagged with a topic (see the Topics page).
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`"great replacement" AND episode_date:[NOW-1YEAR TO NOW]`	From the past 12 months.
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`"high value" AND misogyny_count:[100 TO *]`	Episodes with 100 or more sentences flagged as misogynistic. Also: hate_speech_count, toxicity_count, word_count.

The NXR Podcast - January 31, 2023

THEOLOGY APPLIED - 2 Important Debates ｜ Jared Moore Vs. Doug Wilson, William Wolfe Vs. James Lindsay

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Summary

Transcript