The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - 3 Heresies In Eastern Orthodoxy (Part 1) with Joshua Schooping

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00:00:40.900 Hi, welcome back to Theology Applied.

00:00:42.580 I'm your host, Pastor Joel Webbin with Right Response Ministries.

00:00:46.220 Now, starting this week, we're doing something a little bit different.

00:00:49.100 For the next three weeks, we are going to be on a three-part journey, a three-part series

00:00:54.880 focusing on Eastern Orthodoxy.

00:00:58.280 There are many Protestants who have recently converted to Eastern Orthodoxy, and there

00:01:03.440 are some great dangers that each of us need to be aware of.

00:01:07.040 What I've done is I've invited Joshua Shooping, who is currently a Protestant Reformed Minister

00:01:12.720 of the Gospel, but who previously for five years served as an Eastern Orthodox priest.

00:01:19.100 I've invited him to join me for all three parts of this mini-series within our Theology Applied

00:01:25.500 show that focuses on Eastern Orthodoxy.

00:01:29.040 This is part one.

00:01:30.660 In part one, we're going to focus on three deadly heresies, not just on biblical doctrine,

00:01:37.100 but actually denying primary theological issues, gospel issues, three deadly heresies committed

00:01:46.140 my Eastern Orthodoxy.

00:01:48.060 If you join us in this three-part journey, you'll find that next week we're going to

00:01:53.260 focus on the primary distinctions between Eastern Orthodoxy on the one hand and Roman

00:01:59.400 Catholicism on the other.

00:02:01.400 There are certainly similarities, but there are distinctions, and as Reformed Protestants,

00:02:07.020 we need to be aware of what is Eastern Orthodoxy versus what is Roman Catholicism.

00:02:13.200 They are not exactly the same.

00:02:14.660 Then the third part in this three-part series is going to be three of the primary reasons

00:02:21.340 why certain Reformed Protestants are leaving the Protestant faith and joining Eastern Orthodoxy.

00:02:30.080 I think that there are three primary appeals or attractions of Eastern Orthodoxy. 0.96

00:02:36.460 I think it's wrong. 1.00

00:02:38.080 I think it's dangerous, but I do see the appeal. 1.00

00:02:41.440 So Joshua Shooping and myself, we highlight three of the primary reasons why certain Protestants 1.00

00:02:47.980 in just the last recent years, and it seems to be there's a bit of an increase, a ramping

00:02:53.980 up of certain Protestants switching teams, for lack of a better phrase, from Reformed

00:02:59.540 Protestant tradition and doctrine to Eastern Orthodoxy.

00:03:04.140 So this is part one. 0.96

00:03:05.320 We're focusing on three deadly heresies of Eastern Orthodoxy. 0.96

00:03:09.480 Next episode, part two, the difference between Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism. 0.99

00:03:16.020 And then the final episode, part three, we'll focus on three of the primary attractions

00:03:22.340 or appeals, the reasons why Protestant guys are switching teams and going EO.

00:03:29.200 If Eastern Orthodoxy and these things concern you, which they do, if they interest you,

00:03:34.960 which they might you're in the right place tune in now to theology applied whoa whoa whoa you're

00:03:41.680 not going to want to miss this two announcements about our upcoming next two conferences first

00:03:46.660 the fall november 11th and 12th that's a saturday holdover for the lord's day on sunday 2023 this

00:03:54.800 year what's the title of the conference the household and the war for the cosmos joel you

00:04:00.640 can't use that title that's the title of chris wiley's book well i can use it because i asked

00:04:05.980 his permission which he gladly gave to me because he's one of our speakers coming to the conference

00:04:11.340 that's right we've got cr wiley we also have jared longshore and of course yours truly pastor

00:04:17.800 joel webin doing an entire conference full day on saturday november 11th hold over on the lord's

00:04:24.640 November 12th, all about biblical patriarchy, all about righteous households with hopeful

00:04:31.180 post-millennial eschatology working to push back the kingdom of darkness. That's our fall

00:04:36.920 conference. Go to rightresponseconference.com to register right now. Now, we also have our

00:04:44.340 spring conference. This is March 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, 2024. Less than a year away, it's going to

00:04:52.220 sell out quick. Listen, our Theonomy and Postmillennialism Conference, I warned you guys,

00:04:58.060 a lot of you emailed me saying, I want to come. And I had to say, guys, it's too late. We sold

00:05:03.420 out six months in advance. So it may seem like March 1st, 2nd and 3rd is a long way away, but

00:05:09.500 it will sell out quickly. In fact, we're just now making it publicly known and we've already sold

00:05:16.440 300 tickets. Why? Why do people want to come? What's the title of the conference, Joel?

00:05:21.360 The King and His Kingdom. Subtitle, Seven Doctrines for Ruling the World. Reformed Theology,

00:05:29.100 Covenant Theology, Biblical Patriarchy, Presuppositionalism, Kyperianism, General

00:05:35.900 Equity Theonomy, and Post-Millennialism. Well, who's going to teach those things, Joel?

00:05:41.400 He Who Must Not Be Named, Voldemort himself, Pastor Douglas Wilson, will be there. Officially

00:05:47.600 confirmed and we're honored to have him also pastor brian sauve from the haunted cosmos

00:05:52.920 the king's hall perhaps you've heard of bright hearth he'll be there also dr joseph boot das

00:05:59.980 boot he will be there and of course myself yours truly pastor joel webin the four of us with other

00:06:06.500 speakers that'll be joining us as well we'll roll out some of that information as we settle it but

00:06:11.660 The four of us are already confirmed, Doug Wilson, Joe Boot, Brian Sauve, and Pastor

00:06:17.900 Joel Webben talking about post-mill, talking about theonomy, talking about patriarchy,

00:06:22.980 talking about presuppositionalism, reformed theology, covenant theology, all for Christ

00:06:29.340 and his kingdom, the king and his kingdom.

00:06:32.960 So you're not going to want to miss this one.

00:06:34.840 It will sell out incredibly fast.

00:06:38.560 Please take my word for it this time.

00:06:40.520 don't delay go to right response conference.com right response conference.com 300 tickets already

00:06:49.220 sold and we're just now publicly announcing it so don't waste any time register today fight by

00:06:56.060 flight why leaving godless places is loving godless places i've had a lot of people tell

00:07:02.400 me recently pastor joel you're post-millennial you claim to believe that jesus is king of every

00:07:09.200 square inch but apparently you don't think he's king of california because i've heard your personal

00:07:14.060 story that you used to be a pastor there and that you left for the state of texas notice the title

00:07:20.720 not fight or flight but fight by flight think of the prodigal son he comes to the end of his rope

00:07:28.860 he's longing to be fed with the pods given to the pigs and the parable says no one gave him anything

00:07:37.040 No member of the father's house tracked him down to give him a handout.

00:07:41.700 He was hurting. 0.99

00:07:43.460 He had to lie in the bed that he had made for himself by his foolish choices. 0.98

00:07:49.140 You know what the next words in that parable are? 0.90

00:07:51.380 No one gave him anything, and he came to his senses.

00:07:55.480 He began to repent.

00:07:58.300 There are 10 million professing Christians currently living in the state of California.

00:08:02.300 what if they're fighting but at the same time while well-intentioned they're also funding

00:08:09.360 what if california could be brought to its knees simply by the faithful not fighting there but

00:08:16.440 leaving there and forcing gavin newsom and other tyrants like him to actually have to take a

00:08:23.840 spoonful of their own medicine the book has been forwarded by douglas wilson it's been endorsed by

00:08:30.800 Michael Foster. It's good to be a man. Also, Meg Basham, The Daily Wire, and Steve Days from the

00:08:37.120 Blaze Network. It's available on Amazon, as well as a cheaper copy that can be purchased right from

00:08:44.960 our website, which is rightresponseministries.com. Check it out today. Applying God's Word to every

00:08:51.940 aspect of life. This is Theology Applied. Hi, welcome again to another episode of Theology

00:09:01.420 Applied. I am your host, Pastor Joel Webin with Right Response Ministries. And in this particular

00:09:07.020 episode, I'm privileged to have for a first time guest, Joshua Shooping. Joshua, is that how I say

00:09:13.340 your last name? Did I get it right? Yes, Joshua Shooping. You got it. Okay, welcome to the show.

00:09:18.060 Go ahead and tell our listeners just a little bit about yourself and particularly your background and the reason and purpose for having you on the show today in regards to your previous past with Eastern Orthodoxy.

00:09:30.080 Oh, sure. Happy to.

00:09:31.360 Thanks, by the way, for having me on the show, Joel.

00:09:34.000 I really appreciate it and I really appreciate what you've been up to.

00:09:37.400 I think you're making a great stand and a great mark in defense of right belief, you know, standing on the gospel.

00:09:43.920 I also appreciate your work in theonomy.

00:09:47.200 I think that there's some important work to be done there, and you're doing it, and I just want to commend you for that.

00:09:54.040 Thank you.

00:09:54.480 A little bit of my background, I was born and raised in Florida, but long story short, I ended up in the Orthodox Church.

00:10:01.480 That's a pretty good fast forward there.

00:10:04.140 Yeah, that was good.

00:10:05.440 So I spent about 12 years in the Orthodox Church.

00:10:09.800 I spent about five years as an Orthodox priest, ordained in Rokor, the Russian Orthodox Church outside of Russia.

00:10:18.560 I ended up serving for a couple of years also in the OCA.

00:10:24.460 Through COVID, I was trying to provide some educational catechetical materials for my people.

00:10:32.220 And as I started digging into some of the finer print of some of the canons, whether that's a major ecumenical council like the Seventh Ecumenical Council or into another major council like that of Decythius in Jerusalem in 1672,

00:10:52.260 I started digging into some of that and kind of uncovering what I believe are deep and profound violations of the gospel.

00:11:02.220 that were justified and ultimately, according to a reformed soteriology, by faith alone, through grace alone, by Christ alone, for God's glory alone,

00:11:13.100 and that we stand on Scripture as our highest authority and our only infallible authority.

00:11:19.180 And so as those doctrines became clear and as some of the sectarianism of the Eastern Orthodox Church made itself very clear to me,

00:11:29.440 I realized that I had to leave. And so I left and entered into a pastorship in the Christian

00:11:37.180 and Missionary Alliance. And I'm currently in Russellville, Arkansas. So yeah, I went from

00:11:45.540 Florida to Arkansas by way of the Orthodox Church. Wow. That is really interesting. Well,

00:11:53.560 thanks so much for coming on the show. What I want to do to kind of frame it for our listeners

00:11:57.900 is I'd like to treat this as almost like two interviews,

00:12:01.380 a first half and a second half.

00:12:02.800 And maybe we even break it up

00:12:03.960 and we do it to be continued.

00:12:06.400 We'd record it all right here and now,

00:12:08.520 but we may release it in two parts, we'll see.

00:12:10.960 But what I wanna focus in the first half

00:12:12.840 is I want to see you compare and contrast

00:12:16.960 Eastern Orthodoxy with the Protestant Reformed tradition.

00:12:21.680 What you would now hold to in the church

00:12:24.680 where you pastor your personal convictions

00:12:26.820 and beliefs about the gospel of Jesus Christ, what you preach in your public preaching ministry,

00:12:31.440 pastorally, what you hold to now, and what you were previously a part of as an Eastern Orthodox

00:12:38.200 priest. So first I want to compare EO with Protestant faith. And then in the second half,

00:12:44.280 what I'd love to do is to the best of our ability, by the grace of God, try to compare and contrast

00:12:50.080 for our listeners, EO, Eastern Orthodoxy with Roman Catholicism, because I think a lot of

00:12:56.300 our listeners, myself included, I think a lot of people think in terms of, hey, whether it's

00:13:01.760 Eastern Orthodoxy or Roman Catholicism, they both wear funny hats. They both have robes and tassels.

00:13:08.040 They both really love their idols. It's the, you know, tomato, tomato is the same thing. And so I

00:13:13.080 think it just would be helpful for our listeners to see, okay, they may have some similar errors,

00:13:19.040 theological errors, but there is a distinction between somebody who prescribes to Eastern

00:13:24.420 orthodoxy and somebody who prescribes to roman catholicism so second half of this episode will

00:13:29.180 focus on eo versus rome but for now let's look at eo versus the protestant faith can you could

00:13:36.880 you highlight for us what are some of the biggest you said that in your own personal testimony what

00:13:42.240 drove you out of eastern orthodoxy was that you were reading some of these historic documents and

00:13:48.520 you know, things, councils and creeds and synods and coming to see that there were not just little

00:13:55.340 minute theological differences, but there were what you would consider to be serious

00:14:00.840 compromises with the gospel itself. What are some of those? Yeah, that's a really good question.

00:14:07.680 And I would have to, I guess, by way of introduction, mention about how prior to

00:14:12.320 entering into the Eastern Orthodox Church, I spent a few months at a Reformed Baptist church.

00:14:18.520 And I heard some excellent gospel preaching there. 0.94

00:14:23.280 But one of the things that was stressed, and rightfully so, would have been penal substitutionary atonement.

00:14:30.880 And that was an incredibly harsh doctrine to me at the time.

00:14:37.200 I couldn't square that circle.

00:14:39.540 I had come out of Far Eastern philosophical theological studies.

00:14:44.760 I'm entering into a Christian faith.

00:14:47.840 I grew up in evangelical churches where there wasn't a whole lot of serious theological education happening around me.

00:14:56.140 So my more serious theological exposure was more with like Far Eastern sorts of things.

00:15:03.340 And so as I'm starting to engage with serious Christian theology, I'm being presented with penal substitutionary atonement.

00:15:10.100 And it sounded abstract. It sounded legalistic. It sounded very weird.

00:15:16.180 And so I thought, oh, this is really just so frustrating because I love like the like the love of Jesus was just just burning in my heart, I have to say.

00:15:26.560 And I love Jesus and I wanted to join the church.

00:15:29.280 I wanted to join a church and I didn't know which church to join.

00:15:33.580 And so my wife and I, we spent a few months at a Reformed Baptist Church.

00:15:38.280 We visited R.C. Sproul's church because this is in Florida where we were visited over there.

00:15:44.120 A friend of mine, his older brother was a Calvary Chapel pastor, visited there for a little while and also visited an Eastern Orthodox church.

00:15:56.140 And so I'm starting to do this kind of like historical study.

00:16:00.900 And so I'm asking myself the question, well, who do I believe?

00:16:03.780 Do I believe what this Eastern Orthodox is saying? 0.57

00:16:06.860 because he's saying that they've always believed the same thing all the time,

00:16:10.800 all the way from the church fathers, which is their common false rhetoric.

00:16:15.060 But there's enough there in the scholarship that if you want to paint that picture

00:16:19.840 and draw the line between those dots, you can create that impression and run with it.

00:16:27.280 Or you could go by scripture alone.

00:16:29.460 But if a person misunderstands sola scriptura, they can understand it as solo scriptura.

00:16:35.960 Just a guy standing alone in his room with his Bible, and he comes out with whatever doctrine he wants.

00:16:41.920 So between those two options, I said, well, I'm going to go into Eastern Orthodoxy.

00:16:46.040 And guess what?

00:16:46.720 They don't teach penal substitutionary atonement in the Eastern Orthodox Church.

00:16:50.880 It's one of the famous—

00:16:51.700 Is it like a Christus Victor, or what do they teach?

00:16:54.200 More of a Christus Victor, a heavy emphasis on the incarnation, the incarnational aspect of soteriology, Christ becoming man, and that kind of like renewing all of creation, so to speak, defeating death.

00:17:11.440 But the problem was that when I went into seminary, I'm reading some of these church fathers, and I'm finding penal substitutionary atonement there.

00:17:21.740 hmm like in john chrysostom he'll he'll give a an excellent summary of you know the the concept

00:17:28.940 of penal substitutionary atonement in his commentary on second corinthians i believe

00:17:33.660 chapter five and it's kind of blowing me away a little bit and then i'm finding it in some of

00:17:39.800 these like mystical writers like simeon the new theologian and i'm asking priests about it they're

00:17:46.100 saying oh no we don't go by what any one father says and you have to find it in our hymns which

00:17:51.720 isn't the official part of the official teaching arm of the orthodox church is their hymns their

00:17:56.360 hymn book doesn't change so it has like a binding dogmatic element to it and then i'm so i'm finding

00:18:02.300 penal we have that within protestantism it's uh it's called the book of psalms it's in the bible

00:18:07.420 amen oh man uh and so the orthodox you know um have their their uh very rich hymn tradition

00:18:17.680 and I'm finding penal substitutionary atonement in there.

00:18:22.200 And so now I'm starting to kind of ask myself,

00:18:24.320 well, I kind of left this Reformed Baptist church,

00:18:28.080 and this was part of the motive of it,

00:18:30.080 but now I'm finding it in the church fathers.

00:18:32.440 So I'm kind of compelled to actually agree

00:18:37.320 that this is a right teaching from the Bible.

00:18:41.280 And so that began some of my deeper doubt

00:18:45.780 about the nature of the Orthodox Church in its modern expression.

00:18:52.800 And so if we're going to ask ourselves,

00:18:54.520 how does the Protestant Church differ in Orthodox Protestantism, right,

00:18:59.720 a confessional Protestantism, you know, part of the magisterial Protestant tradition,

00:19:04.040 how does that differ from the Orthodox Church?

00:19:06.180 Well, one of the answers is penal substitutionary atonement.

00:19:09.500 But the Eastern Orthodox Church technically shouldn't reject it.

00:19:13.280 They just think that they're in continuity with the fathers.

00:19:17.720 So it's one of the exposures of their modern rhetoric where I would kind of divide off modern orthodoxy with the kind of orthodoxy that we might find all the way back in Cyril of Alexandria, John Chrysostom, Augustine, even though he's a Latin Western father, Gregory of Nazianzus, going back through to Athanasius, to Irenaeus, all the way back to the scriptures themselves.

00:19:43.280 selves. I would say that the Protestant church, and especially if we read the early Protestant

00:19:48.840 reformers, whether that's Luther, Calvin, William Perkins, or get into the Puritans like Thomas

00:19:55.160 Boston, Thomas Goodwin, these sorts of guys, they're reading the church fathers up and down,

00:20:01.300 left and right, backwards and forwards, and they were true patristic scholars.

00:20:05.100 So they're quoting Gregory of Nazianzus, they're quoting Cyril of Alexandria, they're looking at

00:20:10.500 Cyril of Alexandria's commentary on the Gospel of John, their work.

00:20:15.020 So it's like a conversation with the fathers. 0.79

00:20:17.120 So even that's another difference then that I would say is that where the Eastern Orthodox like to claim a continuity with the church fathers, I actually don't think they have it. 0.95

00:20:28.880 They do like a nice big skip and jump and become this kind of sectarian ritualistic post Byzantine hang on. 0.85

00:20:38.460 that's really interesting uh so that's that's primary that's first and foremost in terms of

00:20:46.100 the gospel of jesus christ i you know i i think there are multiple modes or models of the atonement

00:20:52.420 that i think can be true um simultaneously christus victor there's truth in christus

00:20:57.840 victor there's also even truth in the moral example model in the sense that greater love

00:21:01.820 has none none other than this that a man would lay down his life for his friends it is true

00:21:06.180 that in the crucifixion of Jesus,

00:21:08.660 we see a moral example of sacrificial love

00:21:11.440 that we should display

00:21:13.340 in fulfilling the second commandment,

00:21:15.180 second greatest commandment

00:21:16.020 to love our neighbor as ourself.

00:21:18.080 Absolutely.

00:21:18.960 But if that's all it is,

00:21:20.400 if Jesus' death is merely a moral example,

00:21:22.560 then number one, we don't need Jesus.

00:21:24.080 We have Joan of Arc.

00:21:24.860 We have William Wallace.

00:21:26.340 We have plenty of people

00:21:27.220 who've given their lives

00:21:28.400 to die for their friends

00:21:31.020 in a sacrificial feat of love

00:21:33.480 that we could look at that example

00:21:34.900 and follow it

00:21:35.620 and do well to follow it. But none of them died as the lamb of God to take away the sins of the

00:21:40.380 world. They didn't die on our behalf. That's right. They did not die as a substitute,

00:21:46.060 a propitiation, a pleasing, satiating sacrifice put forward by God to God in order to absolve

00:21:54.220 his wrath towards our sin. And so in that sense, it must be, I would, you know, I would say it is

00:22:00.660 not, it can be more than penal substitutionary atonement, it cannot be less. And anytime that

00:22:06.380 we make it less than Christ as substitute, then we're talking about denying the very gospel of

00:22:13.580 Jesus Christ itself. And so that's a great example. And that's very integral to the gospel.

00:22:19.920 But there are other examples that you and I, we've talked a little bit as we were preparing for the

00:22:24.560 show that are maybe not so much hitting penal substitutionary atonement, but they're high

00:22:30.540 up.

00:22:30.800 I mean, these are not secondary tertiary issues, but primary theological issues, namely

00:22:35.500 idolatry.

00:22:37.020 Let's talk about idolatry.

00:22:39.460 Yeah, well, I would preface that by talking about introducing the concept of what I call

00:22:44.700 the canonical argument in trying to do apologetics in relation to the Eastern Orthodox Church.

00:22:51.560 because how I mentioned in penal substitutionary atonement, technically that's taught in the

00:22:56.400 father. So it should be affirmed by the Eastern Orthodox. So they could go through a trend of

00:23:01.700 teaching it, or they could go through a trend of denying it. So if you're trying to do apologetics

00:23:06.480 with them, it's trying, it's like trying to get a jello to stick to the wall. So how do you get

00:23:12.260 beyond the opinions of this local priest or that local priest or this generation's buzzwords or

00:23:18.440 whatever um and you go to their canons you go to their their canon law you go to their formal

00:23:23.620 declarations their formal documents and so one of those documents is in the seventh ecumenical

00:23:29.500 council which they consider to have equal authority to the scriptures um that's where

00:23:35.060 they see the voice of the church being equal to that of of the word of god so in that real quick

00:23:42.260 just to pause in that sense eastern orthodoxy would be similar to roman catholicism in the

00:23:47.920 sense of saying two equal streams authority of authority namely scripture and tradition yeah in

00:23:53.920 the council of desithius or the council of jerusalem chaired by patriarch desithius in 1672

00:23:59.580 uh they affirm that it is the same it's not any different to be taught by the church or by the

00:24:04.860 word of god or by the bible they're both equally inerrant wow um it's crazy uh actually i think

00:24:13.080 okay so so just to keep count here we've got number one penal substitutionary atonement

00:24:19.360 and saying that the fathers actually did hold to this but the modern kind of expression of

00:24:25.400 eo that we find today that's just that's absent from a lot of the rhetoric uh it's more focused

00:24:30.160 on christus victor yeah okay so so not even just uh neglecting but outright rejection in many cases

00:24:36.560 of penal substitutionary atonement that's uh failure number one number two we're kind of

00:24:41.220 skipping over to get to idolatry and images and icons but uh but on our way there we already hit

00:24:47.080 another big one which is um solo scriptura yeah that scripture we're not so low script we believe

00:24:53.160 that there are scripture itself testifies to other authorities um but but in solo scriptura i always

00:24:58.520 remind our listeners what we're saying is not that scripture is the only authority we're saying it's

00:25:01.860 the highest authority and it's the only infallible authority and anytime any other authority outside

00:25:08.100 of scripture is deemed to be infallible or inerrant, we have a problem. So that's two now,

00:25:14.320 penal substitutionary atonement, and then also elevating traditions of men as being inerrant.

00:25:20.840 They don't err. And then go on. Yeah. And so that's where I would stress that canonical

00:25:26.700 argument, because that's where the Orthodox can be pressed, because they formally affirm that

00:25:32.780 scripture and tradition are of equal weight and equally inerrant, uh, in that council of

00:25:38.680 Decythius. And, and, uh, I forget which decree it is. I don't know if it's three or four. Um,

00:25:44.940 but it's in one of those particular, uh, decrees where, where they make that affirmation. Um, but

00:25:50.200 so this canonical argument is just trying to say, well, I need to find where they actually have

00:25:56.440 pinned themselves down. And that's this one of veneration of icons is another one in the

00:26:03.480 Seventh Ecumenical Council, where they define anathema as the church's ability to separate a

00:26:11.460 person from God. They pronounce the anathema. They don't just say a person has anathematized

00:26:16.600 themselves they they anathematize uh the person a modern um uh canonical canon law reference work

00:26:25.340 uh compares an anathema with uh to being equivalent to the death penalty in a secular sphere

00:26:31.700 so when the church applies uh when the eastern orthodox church says that they apply an anathema

00:26:37.180 it's the it's the spiritual death sentence the spiritual death penalty and they don't think

00:26:42.560 Within Protestantism, again, within the Reformed tradition, we uphold biblical church discipline.

00:26:48.900 It has been my immense misfortune as a minister of the gospel to have to oversee.

00:26:54.660 Now, we're congregational.

00:26:55.760 We hold to the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith.

00:26:59.800 And so it's through the common suffrage when it comes to removing someone from the membership

00:27:03.460 of the church.

00:27:04.340 That's a congregational vote.

00:27:05.780 There you go, 1689.

00:27:06.840 That's a congregational vote.

00:27:08.340 The elders would oversee and guide that discussion.

00:27:11.200 but we'd actually take a formal vote

00:27:12.760 from the membership of the church.

00:27:14.300 And it's been my extreme misfortune

00:27:15.780 to oversee that process a few times by God's grace,

00:27:20.000 not dozens of times, but I can count them on two hands

00:27:23.220 over the course of about 10 years of ministry.

00:27:26.280 But when that happens, it is never our position

00:27:29.960 to say that that's definitive.

00:27:33.960 This person that we have just, right,

00:27:35.920 the keys of the kingdom, binding and loosing,

00:27:37.980 whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

00:27:39.500 Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.

00:27:41.200 We recognize that when we lose someone, when we remove someone from the membership of the church and begin to treat them per Matthew 18 as a tax collector or a Gentile, hand them over to Satan, as the apostle Paul says, in the sense that it's almost to be removed from the church is in a sense to be handed over to Satan because there is protection among the people of God versus being isolated on your own. 0.71

00:28:04.460 But when that happens, my point is that we're never making a definitive declaration that

00:28:09.300 we actually know the state of this individual soul.

00:28:12.220 What we're saying instead is there is simply no signs or evidence at this time for us to

00:28:20.460 be able to continue to affirm this person's salvation.

00:28:24.180 But we're recognizing that in handing them over, removing them, it is possible that God

00:28:29.200 uses us to save them for the first time, that they actually weren't saved, but they come

00:28:33.880 to salvation, it's also quite possible that we would hand someone over, remove someone who is

00:28:39.260 genuinely regenerate, but in underneath a season of fatherly displeasure, walking away from the

00:28:47.540 Lord, but that the Lord would use us not to save them for the first time, but they're actually

00:28:51.500 already saved. We handed over someone who is regenerate, but the Lord uses that tough love

00:28:56.320 in church discipline to actually bring them conviction and bring them back in. But my point

00:29:01.160 is the reformed Protestant church is not making a definitive claim one way or the other and saying,

00:29:05.580 we handed this person over. And so therefore this person is a reprobate and definitively going to

00:29:12.120 hell. They have lost their salvation or never had their salvation. We're just saying, no, 0.61

00:29:16.880 we cannot continue to affirm their salvation. And therefore it would be, it would be a hateful

00:29:22.440 and spiteful thing for us to do to continue to offer to this individual, a false sense of

00:29:27.540 assurance when they should have little to no assurance right now and that that fear of the

00:29:32.980 lord would be a loving thing that would drive them to christ that's very different than we pronounce

00:29:39.100 definitively and you're saying correct me if i'm wrong but you're saying within eastern orthodoxy

00:29:44.040 that the church rules and and they believe that definitively if they anathematize someone

00:29:49.000 that person guaranteed 100 going to hell yeah and they would even distinguish between

00:29:54.980 excommunication and anathema okay those are two different things yeah so they go and uh you know

00:30:02.900 so we're in a protestant church you know where we're trying to apply church discipline uh we

00:30:07.680 might apply uh the the medicine so to speak of excommunication uh right we might separate them

00:30:14.460 from the body we might shun them uh for a time either as you said to lead them to repentance

00:30:19.700 or to to lead them to conversion uh you know so to speak so uh the orthodox church go eastern

00:30:27.400 orthodox church goes another mile in applying an anathema which is assigning a person to hell

00:30:34.780 and uh so it's not just that they you know like say okay we we have to kick like here's the the 0.81

00:30:43.300 jurisdiction is the church and we're going to we're going to kick you out we're going to you

00:30:48.740 know banish you from the kingdom so to speak and hopefully you'll find your way back the other one 0.76

00:30:53.380 is actually no we're assigning you a place uh in hell is what they and and if you look at their

00:30:58.800 canonical documents again you'll find that that's how they define it uh if you talk to your local

00:31:04.480 orthodox priest they're going to say oh no it's just medicinal and they'll try to explain it

00:31:08.420 how we might try to explain excommunication but there are two different concepts anathema and

00:31:14.480 excommunication. And so in the Seventh Ecumenical Council, for example, they'll anathematize someone

00:31:20.780 who refuses to bow down and kiss painted images, not only of Jesus, but also painted images of

00:31:28.740 Mary and also painted images of saints or painted images of angels. And they even define in their

00:31:36.980 canonical language in the Ecumenical Council, which they say has equal authority to scripture,

00:31:41.580 that you have to have affection for these things.

00:31:45.080 They define it as you need, like we're using this word

00:31:48.780 because it also means affection for the thing.

00:31:52.960 And to play the devil's advocate, do they say affection for these things,

00:31:56.420 namely the images themselves, or do they say the image simply functions

00:32:01.640 as a conduit, a window to the actual, and you don't have to have affection

00:32:05.540 for the image, but you just need to have affection for Jesus himself,

00:32:09.080 himself and and you demonstrate that affection for christ himself by kissing the image of christ

00:32:15.360 i would say technically no because the language that they use to distinguish between veneration

00:32:21.060 and adoration it would be almost like a a blasphemy of going too low to merely venerate jesus

00:32:28.040 like you would we adore jesus you know in that distinction between veneration and adoration so

00:32:35.060 when they say venerate the icon it's not just you don't adore the icon you adore jesus so when they

00:32:42.020 say venerate the icon they say affection for the icon that that notion of veneration implies that

00:32:47.900 so their whole sort of uh semiotic theory their iconological theory that you know my veneration

00:32:53.980 of the image actually translates into veneration of of the person imaged but it actually there's

00:33:01.160 a little bit of a wrinkle, in my opinion, in the logic where it's like, well, I'm actually supposed

00:33:05.140 to worship and adore Jesus. So how does my veneration of an image, if veneration isn't

00:33:10.920 adoration, how does my veneration of an image become an adoration of God?

00:33:17.620 That's a great point. And even, and going back to, you know, other saints like Mary,

00:33:22.580 that even if an argument could be made, which I don't believe it can, I think it's a clear

00:33:27.960 violation of the second commandment um jesus is god um and that you know we don't have images of

00:33:34.120 god the father we don't have images of god the holy spirit and both the westminster and the 1689

00:33:38.380 confession you know god is the most pure spirit without body parts and passions he dwells in

00:33:42.860 unapproachable light you know and um and so we don't try to to make these things physical but

00:33:47.120 even with christ the second member of the trinity who is the god man who took on flesh still the

00:33:52.600 reality is, number one, when we make an image of Christ, the God-man, number one, we don't know

00:33:59.860 what Jesus looked like. And so whoever we are depicting is not Jesus. And you might say, well,

00:34:06.340 what if somebody had a camera back then with technology? Well, they didn't. And I think in

00:34:10.720 the province of God, that's, he didn't come when we had cameras. And I think there's something

00:34:15.160 there. Number two, you might say, well, what if we found an old painting? Well, we haven't found

00:34:20.940 a first century painting of Jesus. You know why? Because the apostles knew not to paint Jesus.

00:34:27.080 They didn't do it. You don't find something like, you don't find that until a few hundred years

00:34:31.280 afterwards, once I think they were getting a little wishy-washy on the second commandment.

00:34:34.860 Then number three, even if we had a painting or a picture that was, this is not just what we think

00:34:40.100 Jesus looked like, but this is the spitting image. It would still not be Jesus in the sense that you

00:34:45.580 could only physically portray in a painting or an image, um, half of Jesus, so to speak,

00:34:52.180 in the sense of, um, his, his flesh, um, the man, Jesus Christ, a full, you know, I mean,

00:34:58.360 he's not half man and half God, fully God, fully man, but, uh, you could only show one

00:35:03.340 of his two natures, uh, what you could not paint and portray, um, is the deity of Christ.

00:35:09.320 And therefore you, it would be as a sense, divorcing the deity of Christ from, this is

00:35:14.360 the argument that J.R. Packer makes essentially in his knowing God when he talks about the second

00:35:19.320 commandment, violations of the second commandment, and that that applies even to the second member

00:35:23.280 of the Trinity, namely Christ. So all those things being as they are, I think it's wrong to image

00:35:29.100 Christ. It's certainly wrong to demand veneration towards an image of Christ. But even if you could

00:35:34.400 argue your way, nuance your way out of that as an Eastern Orthodox priest, what are you going to say

00:35:41.860 about um veneration towards images of mary someone who is not god what you know what i mean like

00:35:48.280 what do they say about that or a right exactly saint right uh in the catholic church they reject

00:35:53.480 gregory palomas and in the eastern orthodox church they affirm gregory palomas you know or

00:35:58.820 but we also have the example in revelation where you know uh the angel says don't venerate me you

00:36:05.160 You know, you know, and so we I would approach the the question of of the second commandment by like kind of like a biblical theology of idolatry,

00:36:17.920 where some of the principal repeated arguments in scripture against the use of images is that they're not alive.

00:36:26.880 So they have the appearance of they have a nose, but they don't breathe.

00:36:30.760 They have eyes, but they don't see. They have mouths, but they don't talk.

00:36:33.600 They have ears, but they don't hear. And those who venerate or worship them because they're they because they're doing that, that somehow initiates a process where they become like them, lifeless, like them.

00:36:46.240 And so I would see that it's inescapable, you know, to even if we had a photograph of Jesus, even if we wanted to say the Shroud of Turin was proven to be, you know, an accurate image of Jesus or something like that, we still shouldn't venerate the Shroud of Turin, you know, just for sake of argument.

00:37:04.660 Because the Shroud of Turin, a photograph, a Polaroid picture, a time machine that goes back and does a digital film of Jesus or something like that, that digital film still isn't Jesus.

00:37:18.080 And we did have, you know, and I think John of Damascus uses a kind of a bait and switch argument, kind of a non sequitur, because he says that, well, God hadn't appeared, you know, at that time.

00:37:31.620 But God had appeared to Abraham, and he ate with Abraham.

00:37:35.440 He wrestled with Jacob.

00:37:37.380 So we have instances in the Old Testament, even prior, and that's why I mentioned them, prior to the giving of the Ten Commandments, of God appearing to people.

00:37:49.520 Totally, walking with Adam and Eve in the cool of the day.

00:37:51.960 You could argue maybe Noah caught a glimpse as the door was closing that the Lord actually closed the door of the ark, and I think it's arguable.

00:38:00.240 I would hold this position that that was a theophany.

00:38:02.620 It was the second member of the Trinity who had not yet been, you know, the incarnation

00:38:08.340 had not yet taken.

00:38:09.580 So he had not yet been enfleshed, but still taking on a physical manifestation, appearing

00:38:13.440 and physically closing the door.

00:38:14.900 It wasn't just an angel, but the Lord himself, Noah, his family likely could have seen him

00:38:18.980 very possible.

00:38:20.100 So yeah, so we have, I mean, we have multiple, you know, the angel, the Lord with Joshua,

00:38:23.340 you have, you know, again and again and again.

00:38:24.940 um but yeah it you know people saw um the lord but why it doesn't seem like anybody was like and

00:38:33.180 so we should now take take this image and and and paint it and and it's holy and special and a relic

00:38:41.800 that's going to be in this temple and going like that just you don't see that with any any of the

00:38:47.100 biblical authors and you don't see that within the first couple at least two or three centuries

00:38:51.920 correct me if I'm wrong, but within church history as well. Well, the early arguments of the

00:38:56.340 Christians against idols and pagan images were the very same arguments, the pagan arguments for

00:39:04.060 their use of imagery, were the same arguments that the later Christians like John of Damascus

00:39:09.940 picked up. Even the famous Julian the Apostate, he made a famous defense of the use of images and

00:39:17.340 idols. But that argument that the apostate used for images was the argument that John of Damascus

00:39:24.460 later picked up a few centuries later. So they just picked up these pagan arguments that the

00:39:29.880 early church was arguing against. They knew the whole iconological theory. They knew the semiotic

00:39:36.600 theory of sign and reference and stuff like sign and reference or whatever. They knew all about

00:39:42.660 that. Augustine even has a famous treatise on teaching Christianity where he talks about

00:39:47.580 semiotics and sign and referent and stuff like that. And yet they were arguing against imagery

00:39:54.120 and the use of imagery in worship. So I would say if a person could even argue to the permissibility

00:40:01.200 of images of trying to paint a picture of Jesus, like an action Bible or something like that,

00:40:07.260 Even if a person could argue to that degree, that still would never go that next level of actually using it in worship or using it in devotions or something like that.

00:40:20.480 Right, right. 0.61

00:40:21.600 R.C. Sproul in his children's books, you know, I've said this before in past podcasts, but he was really careful, and I appreciate this.

00:40:27.200 We have all of his children's books that we read to our kids, and Jesus is never seen.

00:40:31.480 You might catch, you know, maybe a kneecap of Jesus riding in on the donkey, you know, with a Passover or Palm Sunday, but his face is not shown.

00:40:44.100 Now, you know, to be fair, he actually does have stained glass windows in the church where he pastored, co-pastored with Burke Parsons in the foyer, but it's not in the sanctuary.

00:40:54.640 um and you know so so you're right so i mean there's an argument to be made against images

00:40:59.800 entirely um but there's certainly i i mean it's just it's impossible biblically not to make the

00:41:06.380 argument against images in worship and i think it enslaves us to matter i think that's what god's

00:41:11.800 trying to protect us from either being enslaved to worshiping the sun worshiping a created object

00:41:18.460 or a God-created object like the sun, moon, and stars,

00:41:23.080 or for us to become enslaved to our own creations when we paint stuff

00:41:27.000 or mold stuff or carve things.

00:41:29.620 I think God wants us to steward creation, not worship it.

00:41:34.800 Amen. Amen.

00:41:36.260 All right, so we've got penal substitutionary atonement.

00:41:38.780 We've got sola scriptura, you know,

00:41:41.700 scripture being the highest authority and the only infallible authority.

00:41:45.580 and now we have images and idolatry um what what are are there any other ones that you can think

00:41:52.500 of that were you know big in terms of again right now comparing and contrasting protestantism with

00:41:58.100 eastern orthodoxy uh i think there's also a um a myth within orthodoxy about their the centrality

00:42:06.500 of theosis or sanctification uh with them where they kind of i think uh inject a salvation by

00:42:14.620 works sort of model, a salvation by asceticism sort of model. If a person will go back and read,

00:42:23.320 I think it's a 6th century, maybe 7th century document that's famously read during Lent by

00:42:29.160 a man named John of the Ladder or John Clemicus, where he gives all of these steps that a person

00:42:35.260 has to take. Some of them are just good, pious advice, like about how to be humble. But when

00:42:42.900 you start reading some of these things you find like the total absence of assurance they don't

00:42:47.860 really have any assurance of of salvation uh and it's really very tragic so they'll live in a

00:42:54.080 monastery uh they'll fast you know 364 days a year um you know they'll sleep on the ground

00:43:02.060 uh they'll they'll beat their legs with sticks uh on the shins if they have a thought of lust 0.89

00:43:07.900 come up. They'll sleep on boards when it's cold, but they'll separate the boards so that a little 0.80

00:43:14.420 bit of cool air can go in between the boards, so that way they don't have any warmth. And yet they

00:43:19.820 won't have any assurance that they're saved. They're never sure if it's enough. And you find

00:43:25.300 their rejection of the gospel being enshrined, again canonically, in that council of Jerusalem

00:43:33.040 in 1672, where they affirm the necessity of justification by faith and works. And so they

00:43:42.240 have like this sort of like genetic inability to understand the doctrine of justification by faith

00:43:47.100 alone, as if we're just a bunch of antinomians, like that's literally what we're affirming.

00:43:52.480 But really, we're preserving the supernatural nature of regeneration and conversion, and that

00:43:59.300 we actually participate in the life of God because he gives us his eternal life. He doesn't

00:44:04.840 give us a thing called eternal life. He gives us himself and he is our life. But that comes together

00:44:11.000 with faith and trust alone. So it's not dependent on our transformation, whether we're saved. It's

00:44:17.520 dependent on him saving us and us trusting in him alone. Amen. Yeah, it's not faith plus works

00:44:24.700 equals salvation, but rather it is faith alone equals salvation plus works. That if someone has

00:44:32.720 true saving faith, they will have salvation and that faith will also manifest itself not only in

00:44:39.980 eternal life, but in good works here on earth. But the order is vital and the mistake is the

00:44:49.160 difference between heaven and hell. Faith plus works equals salvation versus faith equals

00:44:54.740 salvation plus works. Can I be frank with you for just a second right here at the end? Look,

00:45:00.680 some of you guys, you're financially supporting this ministry. And from the bottom of my heart,

00:45:05.260 I say, thank you. I cannot thank you enough. However, some of you, you just, you can't afford

00:45:12.300 it. In fact, some of you, you shouldn't afford it. Let's be honest. I mean, we're living in Joe

00:45:18.640 Biden's ridiculous economy. Our nation and our totalitarian political elites lost their minds 0.99

00:45:27.580 over the last three years due to COVID. We have written checks that we simply cannot cash. It

00:45:34.860 doesn't matter if people change the definition of a recession. We are living in a recession right

00:45:41.000 now regardless. Some of you are struggling to afford a carton of eggs at the grocery store.

00:45:47.560 You cannot support financially this ministry at this time, nor should you, but you could still

00:45:54.720 help us tremendously. I am asking you, please, if you're willing to do so, take one minute of your

00:46:01.780 time. Leave us a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform, iTunes, Spotify, whatever that

00:46:08.980 might be, this is the way the system works. We want to be innocent as doves, but shrewd as vipers.

00:46:15.840 We need to be strategic. You leave us a five-star review and our podcast shows up for more people.

00:46:23.080 And the Word of God and courageous theology applied in practical ways to every realm of life

00:46:30.200 gets out there. Help us get it out there. Thanks for tuning in.

00:46:38.980 You

The NXR Podcast - May 16, 2023

THEOLOGY APPLIED - 3 Heresies In Eastern Orthodoxy (Part 1) with Joshua Schooping

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