The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - 3 Reasons To Stop Using Bethel & Hillsong Music At Church (Part 2)

00:00:00.000 In this episode, I have the privilege of sitting down with the returning guest, Justin Peters,

00:00:04.920 to discuss three reasons why you should stop using Bethel and Hillsong music in your church.

00:00:11.820 The three reasons are as follows.

00:00:13.820 Number one, Bethel and Hillsong are not true churches.

00:00:17.000 Number two, by using Bethel and Hillsong music in your church, you are subjecting weaker

00:00:22.620 believers to heresy.

00:00:24.200 And number three, even the non-blatantly heretical songs by institutions like Bethel and Hillsong

00:00:32.220 are not scripturally and theologically robust enough to combat the heresy and idolatry that

00:00:39.140 exist in our hearts. This is the second part of actually a two-part series. In this episode,

00:00:45.800 we'll be addressing those last two reasons, reason two and reason number three. Hope you enjoy.

00:00:52.680 Applying God's word to every aspect of life.

00:00:56.060 This is Theology Applied.

00:01:04.040 If you don't mind, could you use, there was an analogy that I heard you use.

00:01:09.100 I think it was on Wretched Radio with Todd Friel.

00:01:12.920 And it was so good.

00:01:15.020 It was strong.

00:01:16.760 And I don't want to steal the punchline.

00:01:18.300 But you were basically saying, we don't want to use music that comes out of these two institutions.

00:01:23.620 We'll call them institutions because they're not churches.

00:01:26.160 And then you named another institution. 0.98

00:01:28.160 What if this institution that Christians know good and well that commits murder, there's the hint. 0.99

00:01:35.640 What if they wrote a worship song? 1.00

00:01:37.440 Will we play that in our churches?

00:01:38.540 Do you remember what I'm talking about?

00:01:40.800 Oh, yeah.

00:01:41.340 Yeah, I sure do.

00:01:42.660 And I caught a lot of flack for it, but I stand by it, and I'll double down on it.

00:01:50.240 Okay.

00:01:51.780 And this kind of is related to another point that I guess we'll get to.

00:01:56.600 I guess we could throw it in here now, is the financial aspect of this.

00:02:00.960 So according to the CCLI agreements, licensing agreements, if a church is doing what they should be doing, then every time a church sings a Bethel song or a Hillsong song or a Elevation song, they're supposed to be sending in money to these respective institutions.

00:02:24.880 You know, these respective, as I've referred to them, goat farms, because they're not churches.

00:02:32.060 They're supposed to be sending money into these organizations.

00:02:37.160 Okay, so you're enriching.

00:02:39.480 Every time you sing one of their songs on a Sunday morning, you're sending in some money to these cults.

00:02:45.760 And the point I make here is this.

00:02:48.140 all right so they use their music as one of their main revenue streams and one of the main ways that

00:02:55.860 they broaden their tents and bring people into their cultish theological system so now the

00:03:03.120 argument is well some of their songs the lyrics are okay you know some of their songs have good

00:03:09.100 sound doctrinally sound lyrics and you know what they do some of them do now a lot of them don't

00:03:15.580 but some of them do. I would admit some of their lyrics will pass a doctrinal smell test.

00:03:20.940 And so, well, as long as the doctrine is okay and the lyrics are okay, then it's no problem

00:03:25.060 singing these songs. Well, here's the problem. Let's use this analogy. Let's suppose, and we'll

00:03:33.900 illustrate absurdity by being absurd, but it makes a point. Let's suppose that Planned Parenthood

00:03:40.840 had a board meeting and they said, you know, guys, we really need to bring in some more money

00:03:45.900 to our organization. And does anybody have any ideas? And the guy at the table, you know,

00:03:51.500 he said, Oh, I got an idea. Okay. What's your idea? Well, how about let's do this?

00:03:56.820 Let's write some Christian music and we'll make the lyrics pass a doctrinal smell test because

00:04:03.580 we know the Christians won't sing songs that are just completely outlandish. So let's write

00:04:10.380 some Christian music, and we'll make the lyrics pass a doctrinal smell test, and we'll sell it

00:04:15.920 to the churches. That way, every time all these evangelical churches sing one of our songs,

00:04:22.060 they're going to be sending us some money. So here's my question. Would you, if you knew

00:04:30.580 that the music you were singing, the song you were singing on a Sunday morning,

00:04:35.100 even though it had good lyrics, if you knew that your church was sending in some money every

00:04:40.360 time you sang one of those songs to Planned Parenthood, would you sing it? And I dare say

00:04:46.280 that 99.99% of evangelicals would say, no, no, we're not. I wouldn't sing that song.

00:04:56.320 I don't care how good the lyrics are. I'm not sending money to Planned Parenthood.

00:05:00.240 And rightly so. I would submit that by sending in, by singing Hillsong and Elevation and Bethel

00:05:08.880 music, when you send it, when you sing their song and you send them money, I would submit that that

00:05:14.920 is worse than the illustration of Planned Parenthood, because you are sending in money to

00:05:23.420 a cult. You are sending in money to a cult that preaches a different Jesus and a different gospel

00:05:30.800 that is leading millions upon millions of people straight down the primrose path to hell.

00:05:39.320 Planned Parenthood is horrific, horrific. They murder babies, but they're lost.

00:05:46.640 They're lost.

00:05:48.500 Lost people do what lost people do.

00:05:52.480 Doesn't excuse it.

00:05:53.680 They will give an account one day.

00:05:55.880 But Bethel and Hillsong and Elevation, they claim to be Christians. 0.59

00:06:00.440 And I would argue that what they are doing is worse than what Planned Parenthood is doing.

00:06:05.760 Because they are blaspheming Christ, bringing reproach on the name of Christ, falsely prophesying in the name of Christ,

00:06:13.180 preaching a false Jesus and a false gospel and leading people to hell under the supposed banner

00:06:20.280 of Christ. So if there's anything worse than Planned Parenthood, it's that. And a lot of

00:06:25.980 people really bristled and they didn't like that, but I stand by it and I would just defy anyone to

00:06:31.800 biblically show me where that logic breaks down. Yep. And if not, just for the sake of argument,

00:06:37.540 if not morally more heinous, one of the big things that you're arguing is that the result,

00:06:44.520 the effect is more heinous because you're talking about ultimately the end with Planned

00:06:48.720 Parenthood. You're talking about physical murder. So the end of the physical life,

00:06:51.920 but in the case of false churches that are preaching a damnable doctrine, you're not

00:06:58.600 just talking about the end of physical life, but you're ultimately talking about leading people to

00:07:02.820 hell. So you're talking about eternal death. And so I think it's a fair point, but I think that's

00:07:08.840 really helpful to, because a lot of people just probably aren't aware of that. Maybe some pastors

00:07:12.900 are listening to this episode, you know, they may not be aware that if they're doing what they're

00:07:18.140 actually supposed to be doing, there are royalties, you know, somebody writes a song and you don't

00:07:22.920 just get to use it for free. And so it is that financial support. So there's kind of three big

00:07:28.520 reasons that I wanted to discuss with you why churches shouldn't use Hillsong of Bethel music

00:07:33.280 for worship. And so the first one is they're not churches. They're not true churches. They are

00:07:38.620 preaching and supporting heresy. And so we don't want our worship music to come from

00:07:45.580 heretics. And so that's the first reason. The next two reasons that we're going to get to 1.00

00:07:50.620 are actually different than the financial reason you brought. So we'll call that, if nothing else,

00:07:54.640 We'll call that our fourth bonus reason because I wasn't even really thinking about that.

00:07:58.960 But that's a really good point that not only one reason is that these aren't true churches.

00:08:04.000 Another reason is that by utilizing their music in a worship service on Sunday, your church is actually supporting the prosperity gospel in the same way that, you know, you would support a missionary.

00:08:15.120 You know, it's like our church, you could you could say that you could say, what is your you know, what ministries does your church support?

00:08:19.840 Will we support this missionary, you know, in Zambia?

00:08:22.980 And we also support, you know, Bill Johnson and, you know, Hillsong.

00:08:27.320 And it's like, wait a second.

00:08:28.820 So that's a really, I think that's a really strong and really well-made argument.

00:08:34.200 So real quick, before we move on from these aren't churches, if anybody's listening, then what is a church?

00:08:40.220 What constitutes a church?

00:08:41.640 One quote by John Calvin that I think is, you know, it's simple and helpful.

00:08:45.600 you know the scripture first and foremost would say you know the first timothy that the church

00:08:50.460 is the pillar and the buttress of the truth and so the church isn't just first and foremost the

00:08:55.880 church isn't just a place to love people help people those things matter we want to love our

00:09:00.460 brothers and sisters in real tangible ways james talks about that first john talks about that you

00:09:04.780 know you can't just wish them well and say be warmed and well fed you know so the church does

00:09:09.860 love and care for people and meet tangible needs. But first and foremost, the church is the pillar

00:09:16.480 and buttress of the truth. It is a gospel preaching and a law preaching, a Bible preaching

00:09:22.300 church. It is a beacon of truth in a dark world. And so the church is the pillar and buttress of

00:09:30.220 the truth. And with that, John Calvin said this, that anywhere the word of God is rightly preached

00:09:37.900 and the sacraments are rightly administered there a church of God exists even if it swarms with many

00:09:43.620 faults and so we would say that no matter how sweet the people might be and no matter how many

00:09:48.660 bible verses they might you can use a lot of bible verses satan used a lot of bible verses but that

00:09:53.300 doesn't mean you're using them rightly and so Calvin emphasizes the right preaching of the word

00:09:58.200 and the right administration of the sacraments or for the baptists out there that doesn't like the

00:10:02.860 word sacrament, the ordinances of the Lord's Supper and baptism. And so wherever this is

00:10:07.980 happening, the people, you know, Calvin even, you know, he even adds, even if it swarms with many

00:10:13.640 faults, if these two things, right preaching, right administering. And so really what it comes

00:10:20.180 down to is the ordinary means of grace and the ordinary means of grace, just for the listener,

00:10:23.580 I would, you know, most guys would boil them down to four. We preach the word, we pray the word,

00:10:28.900 we sing the word, and we see, S-E-E, see the word as it were, not in a literal sense,

00:10:35.240 but we see the word, we get a glimpse of the word in the sacrament of baptism and the Lord's

00:10:40.260 Supper. And so that's what this Lord's Day hour is for. And I think part of the problem,

00:10:47.020 Hillsong and Bethel is really just, it's just the far-reaching implications of a problem that

00:10:53.160 starts a lot closer to home, which is getting away from the regulative principle of worship.

00:10:58.100 that we just, we're just too, we just think we have a lot more creative license when it comes

00:11:05.440 to our Lord's day gathering of the saints and worship than we actually do. And so if anybody

00:11:11.160 was kind of listening to this and it's like, all right, you told us what false doctrines they're

00:11:15.340 preaching and that helps to know why they're not churches, but what is a working, a simple working

00:11:20.140 definition of, of what's the biblical criteria for a true church? What makes a church a church?

00:11:25.360 And Justin and I would both say, wherever in Matthew 18, wherever you have two or three.

00:11:31.300 So in terms of size, you don't even have to have a lot, according to Jesus.

00:11:34.280 If you have two or three true confessors like Peter, blessed are you, Simon of Jonah, flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my father in heaven.

00:11:41.000 So they've had a God-given divine revelation that doesn't come from man.

00:11:45.020 It can't be conjured.

00:11:45.840 It's not of the flesh.

00:11:47.040 But God has revealed to them the person and work of Jesus Christ.

00:11:51.280 And they've confessed it with their mouth and believed in their heart.

00:11:55.120 So they are true confessors who have made a true confession and they have covenanted with God, but also with one another to being faithful, to fulfill the Great Commission, to go baptize, disciple and teach.

00:12:08.920 We always forget the last part, teach others to obey all of Christ's commands and to covenant in doing this together as a community, a family of believers.

00:12:18.220 We would say that technically that, you know, that could constitute a church and it may not be the best church.

00:12:25.120 Um, but, but if you're on the mission field, the first thing you got to do is the work of an evangelist, right?

00:12:30.140 You preach and you hope that the spirit works with the faithful preaching of God's word, word to convert souls.

00:12:35.540 As soon as you got another soul that's converted, you're ready to plant a church technically, you know?

00:12:40.780 And, and then eventually as people develop and they grow, then you want to look to people who are biblically qualified to be elders.

00:12:46.620 And then those people should be teaching and not everybody else. 0.53

00:12:49.440 Cause it's not, we're getting in a circle and everybody takes five minutes to share.

00:12:52.680 No, those who are trained and those who are qualified are teaching God's word publicly.

00:12:57.460 But that's what it means to be a church.

00:12:58.960 There's a public preaching of the word and it's faithful.

00:13:01.380 It's right preaching.

00:13:02.740 There's a public praying of the word.

00:13:05.140 There's singing of the word.

00:13:06.780 So the songs we're singing, they're word centric, not just, oh, well, that technically didn't

00:13:11.380 have any heresy in it.

00:13:12.440 No, it's saturated in the word.

00:13:15.200 And then we're seeing the word in the Lord's Supper and baptism.

00:13:19.200 So a church is all about the word.

00:13:20.740 It's word centric and it's a right use of the word, whether it's preaching or whether it's singing or whether it's praying or whatever it may be.

00:13:29.220 And so what we're saying, Justin and I, is that these churches of Hillsong and Bethel, the word isn't even close to being central in their ethos, in their community, in their, it's the word is rarely anywhere to be found.

00:13:45.100 And even if it is, it's not the right preaching of the word, the right use of the word.

00:13:50.660 The word could be found on Satan's lips, but that doesn't make him a Christian or a pastor.

00:13:55.660 Is there anything else you would want to add to that, Justin?

00:13:59.000 Churches, by definition, those, the called out ones, the ecclesia, those have been called out from darkness to light, from death to life, from sin to newness of life in Christ, the people of God.

00:14:13.580 And there are very few. Let me say this. There is a smattering. Sometimes I'm asked, are there any true Christians in these churches? There would be a smattering of some very young believers, possibly.

00:14:28.980 but they are they would have to be very young believers very immature uh because uh in in in

00:14:38.920 all likelihood save not because of what they've been hearing but in spite of what they've been

00:14:43.020 hearing so you might find a few immature genuine believers but the thing is is that you know we

00:14:50.640 all start off as baby christians but the thing about babies is that babies don't stay babies

00:14:54.880 babies grow up babies mature and so you would find a grand sum total of zero mature believers

00:15:05.540 in these churches zero because if you're a mature believer you're not going to be in a false church

00:15:12.400 mature believers don't worship in false churches no you're you're right it's the same it's very

00:15:18.220 similar to catholicism like people will ask all the time like so are you saying that there you

00:15:23.200 know, that there are no Christians in Catholic churches? And I always answer by saying, I think

00:15:29.680 there are plenty of Christians in Catholic churches. A Christian in the Catholic church

00:15:35.200 is what I would call a bad Catholic. A good Catholic, and when I say a good Catholic, 0.95

00:15:40.020 I mean somebody who's fully prescribed to Catholic teaching is not going to be a Christian because

00:15:44.540 Catholic teaching contradicts with it. And so in the same way, a bad Bethelite or a bad

00:15:50.920 a Hillsonger, you know, AKA somebody who isn't really prescribed to everything and they're just 0.62

00:15:55.660 immature in their faith. They could, you're right. They could absolutely be a Christian

00:15:59.240 in maturity, maturing in their faith. One of the things that Jesus is going to lead them in is

00:16:06.640 he's going to lead them out of that church and their maturity is obedience. And so will they

00:16:12.440 obey? If they're really mature, they'll obey Christ. And eventually that's one of the things

00:16:16.720 in their study of the word is going to become clear to them. And so maturity in Christ will

00:16:22.560 lead them out. So I completely agree with you. So the second reason that churches, local churches

00:16:27.480 shouldn't use Hillsong or Bethel in their churches is kind of the gateway drug, the rabbit trail,

00:16:35.120 the hook that leads people, you know, they're singing the song and they see that fine print,

00:16:40.660 right? And so Justin, can you talk about that? Yeah. Bill Johnson has admitted that they

00:16:46.580 use their music as one of their primary evangelistic tools. That's how they broaden

00:16:53.260 their tent. That's how they bring people into their heretical theological system is by their

00:16:58.920 music. And the way it works is quite simply this. The unsuspecting person sitting in the pew on a

00:17:06.320 Sunday morning, and they're looking up at the screen, reading the lyrics for the song, and

00:17:12.040 they're singing the song and they see in the fine print down at the bottom, they'll see music by

00:17:17.900 Bethel or music by Hillsong. And they think, oh, Bethel, oh, Hillsong. Well, they must be okay.

00:17:25.980 We're singing their music. So I think I'll check them out. And so that is how they sunk in people.

00:17:34.640 One of the primary ways that they bring people in to their cult is by their music and the

00:17:40.840 unsuspecting person out there seeing that singing the song rightly would assume that these churches

00:17:48.000 quote-unquote must be okay because we're singing their music right and um yeah i always just cringe

00:17:55.680 when i go to a church and uh they throw up a hillsong song on the screen or bethel music you

00:18:02.880 You know, I just absolutely cringe because these churches are exposing.

00:18:10.560 I mean, I'm talking about the good churches that will sing good churches that sing this bad music there, whether willingly or inadvertently, they are exposing their flock to the wolves.

00:18:23.800 They're exposing their sheep to the wolves.

00:18:26.500 and one of the primary responsibilities of a pastor, of an elder, is to protect the flock

00:18:32.840 from the wolves. And so by singing this music, we're not protecting our flocks from the wolves,

00:18:38.060 we're exposing them to the wolves. We're inviting them to go into the wolves' lair.

00:18:48.260 And so that is one of the primary objections that I have with singing Bethel or Elevation or

00:18:54.980 you're right it's um i like what you said we're exposing them to wolves um and then i i know you

00:19:01.660 would agree with this i would go even further and say we're as bad as that is a shepherd exposing

00:19:07.260 his own flock of sheep to wolves uh it's it's even worse because you're exposing them to wolves

00:19:12.400 without identifying that they're wolves so so you're exposing them to wolves that don't look

00:19:19.780 like wolves that are wolves that are dressed in sheep's clothing you know that satan masquerades

00:19:24.660 as an angel of light. And, and you're exposing them to this angel of light, to these wolves in

00:19:31.120 sheep's clothing. And, and you're not even, you're not even giving them the heads up. Hey, so, so

00:19:38.760 today during our worship service, we're going to give you a lot of good doctrine. We're going to

00:19:42.760 give you, we're going to give you sheep some, some good water to drink, some green grass. We're going

00:19:47.140 to make sure you lie down, you get some rest and you're going to, you're going to have a good time.

00:19:51.240 This is going to be good for your soul.

00:19:53.480 It's going to be pleasing to the Lord.

00:19:55.320 But we are going for a brief moment, about four to five minutes.

00:19:58.580 We're going to go pass by a den of wolves over here.

00:20:02.800 You're not even doing that.

00:20:03.980 I mean, that still would be absurd.

00:20:05.240 It's like, why?

00:20:06.000 Let's just leave the wolves out of it.

00:20:07.400 Let's not do a wolf field trip.

00:20:09.520 Let's just stick to the green grass and the still waters and the lying down and the things 0.55

00:20:13.700 that are good for sheep.

00:20:14.680 But you're not even doing that.

00:20:15.780 You're not just doing like, hey, we're going to walk by some wolves and you're going to

00:20:18.900 get a view of wolves.

00:20:19.540 you're doing that while not even pointing out that they are wolves. So, so they see those wolves for

00:20:25.140 five minutes. Um, and then they go home and they're like, Hey, I, you know, I'm going to go

00:20:30.800 check that out. That was kind of neat. Uh, that cave over there and that animal looked at, I think

00:20:35.060 it was a sheep and it must've been a sheep because my pastor wouldn't have, have, you know, had me go

00:20:39.700 up and shake its hand, you know, if it wasn't. And so I'm going to go and have dinner at that

00:20:44.620 sheep's house, you know, this week, you know, AKA I'm going to listen to all this music, but, but 1.00

00:20:49.300 it's not just that. I mean, how do people look up music? A lot of time it's YouTube, you know,

00:20:52.820 and that's how people are finding us, you know, me and you in this, this video right now, but

00:20:56.080 people go on YouTube and it's not just music, it's music, music, music, and then it's teaching,

00:21:01.320 you know, or, or it's, um, what is it, you know, um, Hillsong TV, you know, and, and, you know,

00:21:06.780 and you go on there and it's like song, song, song, Joyce Meyer teaching song, song, you know,

00:21:12.060 and, and yeah, so it's just, it's, yeah, it's playing, it's playing with fire. It's not

00:21:17.220 protecting. Um, it's, it's kind of like with, you know, a baby pen, you know, a baby pen with like

00:21:22.240 a rattle and a baby doll and a snake. Let's just go ahead and remove the snake. It's like, well,

00:21:28.860 the baby pen is still really good. And the snake's in the corner, you know, and the snake's not in

00:21:32.140 the center of the pen, you know, it's like, but can't we just have a snake free baby pen? Can't

00:21:36.840 that just be a standard? I think that's a reasonable principle for baby pens. No snakes,

00:21:41.180 Not even the little ones, not even in the corner, just no snakes.

00:21:45.620 And so I'm with you.

00:21:47.180 So our first reason is Bethel and Hillsong aren't true churches.

00:21:51.440 And second reason is not only are they not true churches, but it's a hook.

00:21:58.000 What phrase do you use?

00:21:59.320 I keep saying gateway drug.

00:22:03.360 I don't know.

00:22:04.040 How do you describe it?

00:22:05.220 It's the hook that they use to pull people into their heretical theological system.

00:22:12.880 That's right. You were saying it's their main tool of evangelism, I think is what you said. Is that right?

00:22:17.440 Yep. Main tool of evangelism, main outreach is their music. Yeah.

00:22:22.360 Yep. Absolutely.

00:22:24.440 So third reason that I had here, and you might have another bonus reason that you might be thinking of,

00:22:30.940 But the third reason I had was just saying that I think it might have been D.A. Carson who said this back in the day and I liked it.

00:22:37.100 And once you say it enough, then you can you can say, you know, as I always say, but I'll give him credit because I know I got it from someone.

00:22:44.480 It wasn't me. But I think he said that, you know, there's there are there are worship songs that that may not be heretical objectively in their lyrics,

00:22:53.880 but their lyrics are so theologically anemic that it doesn't combat the heresy that's already in my

00:23:01.620 heart. And I thought that was really good. Just saying that even as Christians, we're sinners,

00:23:08.280 sinners saved by grace. But every Christian, every step of the way, but especially younger

00:23:13.400 Christians in the Lord, we're walking into the church on the Lord's day with preconceived

00:23:20.720 notions about christ about god the father about the holy spirit about the christian life about

00:23:25.980 the law of god about the gospel of god that are wrong right like none of us have perfect theology

00:23:31.400 and so so even for myself as a pastor and for you as an evangelist who travels and teaches

00:23:36.880 the bible all over the world um there is still there's still holes in our doctrine and and

00:23:44.100 things that we don't have a full proper understanding of and some things that we

00:23:48.320 might have even a wrong understanding of. And so that doesn't make us a heretic per se, but there

00:23:53.800 are certain things where, you know, we're like, and not even that, but just the, I keep thinking

00:23:59.240 the prone to wonder, you know, which I think is a great song to use in worship. The hymn,

00:24:04.480 you know, like prone to wonder, Lord, I feel it. Prone to leave the God I love. And that's the

00:24:09.460 reality. And not just for the unregenerate, but even for the Christian, the fight for faith is a

00:24:15.680 fight. Faith is not static. It's not the default position. So even for the Christian, it's like

00:24:21.720 pilgrim's progress, right? It's a journey. It's uphill. It's a battle and it doesn't come 0.97

00:24:28.600 easy. And so with all the wrong preconceived notions and just the idolatry in our hearts,

00:24:36.560 you know, so even if it's not heresy necessarily in our heart, there's idolatry in our hearts,

00:24:40.480 things that we love and cherish and trust in as Christians. I'm speaking to the Christian

00:24:45.680 in that moment more than Christ. And so on the Lord's day, when we're singing, I don't just need

00:24:52.140 songs that are heresy free. I need songs that are just like I need sermons and everything else and

00:24:59.840 prayers. I need prayers, sermons, and songs that are nutrient dense, that are packed with not just

00:25:07.840 that are heresy-free or idolatry-free, but they're packed with the nutrients that expel

00:25:14.080 the heresy and the idolatry and the sin that I've already gotten in my heart, that I already,

00:25:21.000 that I'm showing up to church not just to, because if not, then why am I even, what's the point?

00:25:27.160 I'm showing up to church not just to leave the same way I came in. I'm showing up to hear a word

00:25:33.620 from God and, and for it to, to begin to expel, expel rather the sin in my heart. And so I just

00:25:45.560 think there's so much better music. So could you, with, with that, like what, what are some of the

00:25:51.160 standards, I guess, this is kind of maybe more of a personal question, but what are kind of the

00:25:55.080 standards that you would hold for the worship music that a church should use? What makes the

00:25:59.840 cut? How do you determine that? Yeah, well, the lyrics have got to be, I mean, this might be an

00:26:09.180 overused phrase, but doctrinally sound. They've got to be deep. They've got to be rich. You know,

00:26:15.180 read the lyrics of some of our hymns, like, and can it be? You know, read those lyrics. They're

00:26:23.340 profound. They're deep. They point to God. You know, they don't point to me. They're not shallow.

00:26:29.840 And that's what you see with so much of the contemporary stuff that's coming out today.

00:26:35.160 Not all of it, but most of it.

00:26:39.020 It may not be blatantly heretical.

00:26:41.560 I mean, you're not going to see a song from Bethel or Hill song that teaches like, you know, the little God's doctrine or something like that directly.

00:26:49.480 But the lyrics are so many of their songs.

00:26:55.040 Well, a lot of them have a romanticized view of Jesus.

00:26:59.840 You know, a lot of their songs you could sing to your boyfriend or your girlfriend and it would fit right in.

00:27:06.160 But they're very weak, anemic.

00:27:11.080 So look for doctrinally sound, deep, rich, vertically oriented lyrics.

00:27:19.180 Lyrics that point to God, extol him, exalt him, talk about his attributes, who he is.

00:27:29.840 Um, yeah. And there's so much to choose from. I mean, you, you've got the, you know, the grace

00:27:35.920 hymnal book and, uh, even some of this contemporary stuff like the Gettys, for example,

00:27:42.260 or sovereign grace music that they, they put out, you know, that's, that's good stuff.

00:27:47.620 So I'm not, I don't believe that the Canon has been closed on music writing. I, you know,

00:27:52.500 I don't believe that if you're, if the song you're singing is not 300 years old and it's not a good,

00:27:58.060 And, you know, I don't hold to that.

00:28:01.220 There is some good stuff that's still being written today, but there's a lot of bad stuff out there, too.

00:28:06.480 And so look for meaty.

00:28:08.380 Look for meat.

00:28:09.080 You know, you want meat in your preaching, and you should want it in your worship as well.

00:28:15.340 Music part of worship, I should say.

00:28:17.680 No, that's really good.

00:28:18.460 I like how you said the vertical songs.

00:28:22.520 And you're right.

00:28:23.100 It's like some of the songs, again, it's not necessarily the heretical,

00:28:26.060 But I remember there was some song that we were singing at a church when I was younger.

00:28:33.140 And it was, this was probably, it was a church I was visiting.

00:28:37.760 And it was like, you make me brave.

00:28:40.220 You make me.

00:28:41.040 And it was just like, it felt like an hour, you know, but it was several minutes, I believe, of just repeating, you make me brave.

00:28:49.020 And I don't even, first, I just don't even know what that means.

00:28:51.120 I don't know what scripture you would point to.

00:28:52.520 But I mean, there is the righteous are as bold as lions.

00:28:54.720 There you go.

00:28:55.200 There's a scripture.

00:28:56.060 Right. So there, but, but, but the emphasis wasn't on you. It was on me, what you make me,

00:29:04.080 me now being brave. It's so it's, it's just like for, for three, three minutes, maybe that's an

00:29:10.380 exaggeration, but at least a minute or two, literally just you make me brave. You make me

00:29:15.520 brave on repeat. It's just anemic, no meat, no, no, no substance. And, and yeah, you, I mean,

00:29:23.100 I could defend that statement. Christ makes us brave. Um, but even that would be an improvement,

00:29:30.280 but it's not, I'm, I'm, I'm very certain. I remember this much. It wasn't Christ makes me

00:29:35.220 brave. Even that I would have problems with, cause it's just, let's stop singing about me.

00:29:39.340 Let's just sing about Christ. Um, but, but it's, so it's, it's me centered. It's not vertical,

00:29:44.380 but it wasn't even Christ makes me brave. It's you make me brave. You know, like you said,

00:29:48.500 it's something that I could turn around and you, you know, and sing to another person. I could,

00:29:52.140 you know, sing to my wife, you know, I can put that as a part of, you know, a renewing of my

00:29:56.040 marriage vows, you know, and, and it's just, so, so I'm, I'm with you. So last kind of question,

00:30:02.580 because I know I don't want to keep you too much longer, but I'm curious. I know, I know your

00:30:07.360 position because we've already been talking about it, but you know, I'm, I'm kind of, I have to

00:30:12.600 admit, I'm kind of fascinated. I disagree with it and I'll tell you why in a moment, but I am

00:30:16.580 fascinated and i do appreciate and respect guys like robert godfrey rosario butterfield the

00:30:23.320 exclusive psalm singing crew do you know what i'm talking about where it's we only sing psalms

00:30:28.740 no hymns it could be 500 years old doesn't matter we sing the psalms and they would argue you know

00:30:34.880 like um uh i believe it's ephesians maybe it's what is the text that says psalms um hymns and

00:30:43.080 spiritual songs yeah but yeah which do you remember the reference for that time yeah

00:30:48.120 colossians 3 so they would look at that and say those are three different categories subcategories

00:30:52.580 of the Psalter the book of Psalms are you familiar with that this position Robert Godfrey Rosario

00:30:58.120 Butterfield so what do you yeah I know that's not your position it's not my position and I have a

00:31:02.920 few reasons why but I want to get to you first well uh because I mean that would make it real

00:31:06.940 simple right we don't have any problems you know so why why would you what would be your pushback

00:31:14.100 to only singing the psalms yeah uh well i i guess kind of goes back to what i said a minute ago i

00:31:20.460 just i don't i don't believe that uh that the canon of of writing vertically oriented god christ

00:31:29.540 exalting music is closed. I love to sing the Psalms, but I don't think that we have a biblical

00:31:39.960 mandate to only do that. I don't think Colossians 3 in any way, in any shape, form, or fashion

00:31:48.100 negates writing music. Some believers have the gift, or whether you want to call it talent or

00:31:58.160 gift of writing music, and they do so in a beautiful way. Again, the Gettys, Sovereign

00:32:06.240 Gracie. I'm not a music expert. I'm not a musician by any stretch of the imagination.

00:32:12.200 But I see no mandate from Scripture that we have to sing only the Psalms. I like to do it,

00:32:19.740 all about doing it, but I don't think you have to say that it's got to be that and only that.

00:32:24.980 I agree with you.

00:32:26.140 There was an interview I listened to once with Rosario Butterfield, which I'm really

00:32:29.580 grateful for her.

00:32:30.280 I'd love to have her on the show sometime. 1.00

00:32:32.500 But awesome woman of God.

00:32:34.160 I believe her husband is a pastor in the OPC, Orthodox Presbyterian Church.

00:32:38.820 And God's used her immensely.

00:32:41.880 But I remember she was being questioned on exclusive psalm singing, which is her position.

00:32:47.320 And the answer that she gave was, she said, kind of like what I was saying earlier, the

00:32:52.260 heresy in my heart, the idolatry in my heart, the sin in my heart, you know, Calvin again, you know,

00:32:56.280 the heart is an idol making factory and I need the pure unadulterated word of God on the Lord's day

00:33:02.860 being sung to expel that, you know, so she kind of emphasized I'm, because I'm such a wretch,

00:33:09.460 because I'm so sinful, I need, and, and the guy who is interviewing her, who did not hold that

00:33:14.620 position, his pushback was, well, what about preaching? What is, what is a sermon? But in,

00:33:20.760 it's an exposition it's expounding on the word of god right we don't with a sermon we don't get up

00:33:25.820 for 45 to 60 minutes and and read verbatim scripture today's sermon is the book of hebrews

00:33:32.600 from start to finish without any exposition and that's not and so i would just say back to the

00:33:38.680 ordinary means of grace the the four main ordinary means of grace on the lord's day when we gather

00:33:43.440 together for worship preaching the word praying the word singing the word and seeing the word

00:33:47.240 if preaching allows for exposition, right? It's word centric. It's an exposition of the word,

00:33:53.360 but there is an exposition. If prayer is expound, you know, we want to pray,

00:33:58.160 not, we don't want to pray the flesh. We don't want to pray the thoughts and opinions of man.

00:34:01.860 We want to pray the word, but in our prayer, when we, when we pray, we don't just say, all right,

00:34:07.320 so the prayer that I've selected today is, is going to be a word for word reading of Psalm

00:34:12.800 119. No, like we can pray for things that are currently going on in our world today and rulers

00:34:19.800 and things like that without it having to be a verbatim quote of scripture, but it's still

00:34:23.880 word centric because the scripture tells us to pray about those things. And we're going to pray

00:34:26.840 about those things in scriptural ways. And so when we preach, it's not just verbatim quoting

00:34:31.560 scripture. When we pray, it's not verbatim quoting scripture. So I guess my question

00:34:35.540 to the exclusive Psalm singer would be, how come with the ordinary means of grace, how come

00:34:40.960 with preaching, it's not a verbatim scripture. Praying is not verbatim scripture, but when we

00:34:45.840 get to singing the word, this one has to be verbatim scripture. So I was saying the same

00:34:49.940 way that a good sermon, a good faithful sermon is expounding on a text, man, if a, if a guy is

00:34:56.340 writing a song and his, and his view of writing music is an exposition of a text, simply put,

00:35:04.140 put to music for us to say, I don't, I don't have any reason to say, I can't do that without using

00:35:11.260 that same logic to, to get rid of the sermon I planned to preach that Sunday. You know what I

00:35:16.360 mean? So that, that's kind of the pushback that I would give to it. But that being said, I really

00:35:20.960 do think, I really do believe that, that our worship music should, should feel, it should be

00:35:25.980 just as exegetical and robust as a good expositional sermon.

00:35:34.620 So the same kind of sermon standards, I guess maybe we could say it like this,

00:35:38.000 the same kind of standards that we would have for a good expositional preaching of the Word of God,

00:35:45.400 I think we should have very similar standards for a good expositional singing of the Word of God.

00:35:52.500 Would you agree with that?

00:35:54.220 Yep, I would.

00:35:55.300 I would.

00:35:55.860 Absolutely.

00:35:56.760 The depth of our music should be commensurate with the depth of our preaching.

00:36:01.920 Amen.

00:36:02.560 Anything, big picture, so it doesn't have to be on this particular topic, but anything

00:36:06.800 and what we've talked about now that you want to add just a last thought or two with?

00:36:13.660 Well, God is the object of our worship, right?

00:36:16.540 And we should bring our best to Him.

00:36:18.580 He must be worshiped in spirit and in truth.

00:36:21.300 um john chapter 4 and so i cannot imagine that the king of the universe would be pleased with

00:36:29.700 us singing music that comes from people who preach a different king and who demote the king

00:36:39.600 try to take the king off of his throne so um yeah this is very serious uh we have an audience of

00:36:46.720 one. We've got one person that we've got to please. And he is, God is the object of our worship. And

00:36:52.620 so it's not about us. It's not about how we feel. It's not about our preferences. It's not about how

00:36:57.180 music makes us feel. And so, I mean, yeah, I mean, you can, some of these songs, they might

00:37:04.340 engage your emotions and they might give you a little goose bumps on your arms or whatever.

00:37:08.900 They don't need, but I guess some people they do, but that's not what worship is. Worship is not

00:37:13.300 about how you feel. Worship is vertically oriented to God, and it's got to please Him. We've got to

00:37:18.500 worship in spirit and in truth. That's right. Amen. Well, in summary, our three reasons that

00:37:24.820 we cited for not using Bethel Hillsong, we'll throw elevation in there also, in your Lord's

00:37:30.760 Day worship with your churches. One, they come from organizations, institutions that are not

00:37:36.560 churches themselves. They don't meet the biblical criteria for being true Orthodox churches. Two,

00:37:43.300 it's a gateway. It's a hook that ultimately it's not being a faithful shepherd protecting the sheep.

00:37:50.480 It leads them astray. They begin to, Hey, I like that song. They check out

00:37:53.880 the ministry and, and they start listening to the teaching so it can lead sheep astray.

00:37:59.540 Three was, it's just, it's theologically anemic. So even if it's not blatantly heretical,

00:38:06.300 So it's not deep. It's not vertical. It's not expositional. It's not robust and theological,

00:38:13.800 so it doesn't combat the sin that's already in our hearts. And kind of our bonus reason

00:38:18.200 that we added towards the beginning of the episode that Justin added was that in a very

00:38:23.700 literal and practical sense, you are financially funding these organizations, Bethel and Hillsong,

00:38:29.980 when you use their music in public worship.

00:38:34.660 So that's it.

00:38:35.460 Those are our reasons.

00:38:36.200 Justin, thanks so much for coming on the show.

00:38:37.880 I really appreciate it.

00:38:39.740 You're welcome, brother.

00:38:40.660 You're welcome.

00:38:41.260 God bless you.

00:38:42.320 Any way that our people can follow you,

00:38:44.580 keep up with you?

00:38:46.960 Yeah, I have a website, justinpeters.org.

00:38:51.760 And so they can find out more about me and my ministry.

00:38:56.540 justinpeters.org.

00:38:57.560 I have a YouTube channel.

00:38:58.800 I'm pretty active on that.

00:38:59.820 I put videos out, you know, fairly regularly and just Peter's Ministries Facebook page as well.

00:39:08.100 Okay, thanks. Appreciate it. Thank you so much.

00:39:11.460 Thanks, Joel.

00:39:12.000 All right.

00:39:12.960 As a special thank you for your gift of any amount, we'll be happy to send you a free digital book from our store.

00:39:18.380 To access this offer, visit rightresponseministries.com slash offer.

00:39:23.900 We highly recommend Pastor Joel's book, Am I Truly Saved?

00:39:27.040 If you or someone you know has wrestled with doubts about the love of God,

00:39:31.080 this would be a great resource.

00:39:33.060 As a reminder, to get this offer, go to rightresponseministries.com

00:39:36.580 and thank you for your generous support.

The NXR Podcast - June 16, 2021

THEOLOGY APPLIED - 3 Reasons To Stop Using Bethel & Hillsong Music At Church (Part 2)

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