In this episode, I have the privilege of sitting down with the returning guest, Justin Peters, to discuss three reasons why you should stop using Bethel and Hillsong music in your church. 1. They are not true churches. 2. By using their music, you are subjecting weaker believers to heresy. 3. Their songs are not scripturally and theologically robust enough to combat the heresy and idolatry that exist in our hearts.
00:01:51.780And this kind of is related to another point that I guess we'll get to.
00:01:56.600I guess we could throw it in here now, is the financial aspect of this.
00:02:00.960So according to the CCLI agreements, licensing agreements, if a church is doing what they should be doing, then every time a church sings a Bethel song or a Hillsong song or a Elevation song, they're supposed to be sending in money to these respective institutions.
00:02:24.880You know, these respective, as I've referred to them, goat farms, because they're not churches.
00:02:32.060They're supposed to be sending money into these organizations.
00:05:55.880But Bethel and Hillsong and Elevation, they claim to be Christians.0.59
00:06:00.440And I would argue that what they are doing is worse than what Planned Parenthood is doing.
00:06:05.760Because they are blaspheming Christ, bringing reproach on the name of Christ, falsely prophesying in the name of Christ,
00:06:13.180preaching a false Jesus and a false gospel and leading people to hell under the supposed banner
00:06:20.280of Christ. So if there's anything worse than Planned Parenthood, it's that. And a lot of
00:06:25.980people really bristled and they didn't like that, but I stand by it and I would just defy anyone to
00:06:31.800biblically show me where that logic breaks down. Yep. And if not, just for the sake of argument,
00:06:37.540if not morally more heinous, one of the big things that you're arguing is that the result,
00:06:44.520the effect is more heinous because you're talking about ultimately the end with Planned
00:06:48.720Parenthood. You're talking about physical murder. So the end of the physical life,
00:06:51.920but in the case of false churches that are preaching a damnable doctrine, you're not
00:06:58.600just talking about the end of physical life, but you're ultimately talking about leading people to
00:07:02.820hell. So you're talking about eternal death. And so I think it's a fair point, but I think that's
00:07:08.840really helpful to, because a lot of people just probably aren't aware of that. Maybe some pastors
00:07:12.900are listening to this episode, you know, they may not be aware that if they're doing what they're
00:07:18.140actually supposed to be doing, there are royalties, you know, somebody writes a song and you don't
00:07:22.920just get to use it for free. And so it is that financial support. So there's kind of three big
00:07:28.520reasons that I wanted to discuss with you why churches shouldn't use Hillsong of Bethel music
00:07:33.280for worship. And so the first one is they're not churches. They're not true churches. They are
00:07:38.620preaching and supporting heresy. And so we don't want our worship music to come from
00:07:45.580heretics. And so that's the first reason. The next two reasons that we're going to get to1.00
00:07:50.620are actually different than the financial reason you brought. So we'll call that, if nothing else,
00:07:54.640We'll call that our fourth bonus reason because I wasn't even really thinking about that.
00:07:58.960But that's a really good point that not only one reason is that these aren't true churches.
00:08:04.000Another reason is that by utilizing their music in a worship service on Sunday, your church is actually supporting the prosperity gospel in the same way that, you know, you would support a missionary.
00:08:15.120You know, it's like our church, you could you could say that you could say, what is your you know, what ministries does your church support?
00:08:19.840Will we support this missionary, you know, in Zambia?
00:08:22.980And we also support, you know, Bill Johnson and, you know, Hillsong.
00:08:41.640One quote by John Calvin that I think is, you know, it's simple and helpful.
00:08:45.600you know the scripture first and foremost would say you know the first timothy that the church
00:08:50.460is the pillar and the buttress of the truth and so the church isn't just first and foremost the
00:08:55.880church isn't just a place to love people help people those things matter we want to love our
00:09:00.460brothers and sisters in real tangible ways james talks about that first john talks about that you
00:09:04.780know you can't just wish them well and say be warmed and well fed you know so the church does
00:09:09.860love and care for people and meet tangible needs. But first and foremost, the church is the pillar
00:09:16.480and buttress of the truth. It is a gospel preaching and a law preaching, a Bible preaching
00:09:22.300church. It is a beacon of truth in a dark world. And so the church is the pillar and buttress of
00:09:30.220the truth. And with that, John Calvin said this, that anywhere the word of God is rightly preached
00:09:37.900and the sacraments are rightly administered there a church of God exists even if it swarms with many
00:09:43.620faults and so we would say that no matter how sweet the people might be and no matter how many
00:09:48.660bible verses they might you can use a lot of bible verses satan used a lot of bible verses but that
00:09:53.300doesn't mean you're using them rightly and so Calvin emphasizes the right preaching of the word
00:09:58.200and the right administration of the sacraments or for the baptists out there that doesn't like the
00:10:02.860word sacrament, the ordinances of the Lord's Supper and baptism. And so wherever this is
00:10:07.980happening, the people, you know, Calvin even, you know, he even adds, even if it swarms with many
00:10:13.640faults, if these two things, right preaching, right administering. And so really what it comes
00:10:20.180down to is the ordinary means of grace and the ordinary means of grace, just for the listener,
00:10:23.580I would, you know, most guys would boil them down to four. We preach the word, we pray the word,
00:10:28.900we sing the word, and we see, S-E-E, see the word as it were, not in a literal sense,
00:10:35.240but we see the word, we get a glimpse of the word in the sacrament of baptism and the Lord's
00:10:40.260Supper. And so that's what this Lord's Day hour is for. And I think part of the problem,
00:10:47.020Hillsong and Bethel is really just, it's just the far-reaching implications of a problem that
00:10:53.160starts a lot closer to home, which is getting away from the regulative principle of worship.
00:10:58.100that we just, we're just too, we just think we have a lot more creative license when it comes
00:11:05.440to our Lord's day gathering of the saints and worship than we actually do. And so if anybody
00:11:11.160was kind of listening to this and it's like, all right, you told us what false doctrines they're
00:11:15.340preaching and that helps to know why they're not churches, but what is a working, a simple working
00:11:20.140definition of, of what's the biblical criteria for a true church? What makes a church a church?
00:11:25.360And Justin and I would both say, wherever in Matthew 18, wherever you have two or three.
00:11:31.300So in terms of size, you don't even have to have a lot, according to Jesus.
00:11:34.280If you have two or three true confessors like Peter, blessed are you, Simon of Jonah, flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my father in heaven.
00:11:41.000So they've had a God-given divine revelation that doesn't come from man.
00:11:47.040But God has revealed to them the person and work of Jesus Christ.
00:11:51.280And they've confessed it with their mouth and believed in their heart.
00:11:55.120So they are true confessors who have made a true confession and they have covenanted with God, but also with one another to being faithful, to fulfill the Great Commission, to go baptize, disciple and teach.
00:12:08.920We always forget the last part, teach others to obey all of Christ's commands and to covenant in doing this together as a community, a family of believers.
00:12:18.220We would say that technically that, you know, that could constitute a church and it may not be the best church.
00:12:25.120Um, but, but if you're on the mission field, the first thing you got to do is the work of an evangelist, right?
00:12:30.140You preach and you hope that the spirit works with the faithful preaching of God's word, word to convert souls.
00:12:35.540As soon as you got another soul that's converted, you're ready to plant a church technically, you know?
00:12:40.780And, and then eventually as people develop and they grow, then you want to look to people who are biblically qualified to be elders.
00:12:46.620And then those people should be teaching and not everybody else.0.53
00:12:49.440Cause it's not, we're getting in a circle and everybody takes five minutes to share.
00:12:52.680No, those who are trained and those who are qualified are teaching God's word publicly.
00:12:57.460But that's what it means to be a church.
00:12:58.960There's a public preaching of the word and it's faithful.
00:13:20.740It's word centric and it's a right use of the word, whether it's preaching or whether it's singing or whether it's praying or whatever it may be.
00:13:29.220And so what we're saying, Justin and I, is that these churches of Hillsong and Bethel, the word isn't even close to being central in their ethos, in their community, in their, it's the word is rarely anywhere to be found.
00:13:45.100And even if it is, it's not the right preaching of the word, the right use of the word.
00:13:50.660The word could be found on Satan's lips, but that doesn't make him a Christian or a pastor.
00:13:55.660Is there anything else you would want to add to that, Justin?
00:13:59.000Churches, by definition, those, the called out ones, the ecclesia, those have been called out from darkness to light, from death to life, from sin to newness of life in Christ, the people of God.
00:14:13.580And there are very few. Let me say this. There is a smattering. Sometimes I'm asked, are there any true Christians in these churches? There would be a smattering of some very young believers, possibly.
00:14:28.980but they are they would have to be very young believers very immature uh because uh in in in
00:14:38.920all likelihood save not because of what they've been hearing but in spite of what they've been
00:14:43.020hearing so you might find a few immature genuine believers but the thing is is that you know we
00:14:50.640all start off as baby christians but the thing about babies is that babies don't stay babies
00:14:54.880babies grow up babies mature and so you would find a grand sum total of zero mature believers
00:15:05.540in these churches zero because if you're a mature believer you're not going to be in a false church
00:15:12.400mature believers don't worship in false churches no you're you're right it's the same it's very
00:15:18.220similar to catholicism like people will ask all the time like so are you saying that there you
00:15:23.200know, that there are no Christians in Catholic churches? And I always answer by saying, I think
00:15:29.680there are plenty of Christians in Catholic churches. A Christian in the Catholic church
00:15:35.200is what I would call a bad Catholic. A good Catholic, and when I say a good Catholic,0.95
00:15:40.020I mean somebody who's fully prescribed to Catholic teaching is not going to be a Christian because
00:15:44.540Catholic teaching contradicts with it. And so in the same way, a bad Bethelite or a bad
00:15:50.920a Hillsonger, you know, AKA somebody who isn't really prescribed to everything and they're just0.62
00:15:55.660immature in their faith. They could, you're right. They could absolutely be a Christian
00:15:59.240in maturity, maturing in their faith. One of the things that Jesus is going to lead them in is
00:16:06.640he's going to lead them out of that church and their maturity is obedience. And so will they
00:16:12.440obey? If they're really mature, they'll obey Christ. And eventually that's one of the things
00:16:16.720in their study of the word is going to become clear to them. And so maturity in Christ will
00:16:22.560lead them out. So I completely agree with you. So the second reason that churches, local churches
00:16:27.480shouldn't use Hillsong or Bethel in their churches is kind of the gateway drug, the rabbit trail,
00:16:35.120the hook that leads people, you know, they're singing the song and they see that fine print,
00:16:40.660right? And so Justin, can you talk about that? Yeah. Bill Johnson has admitted that they
00:16:46.580use their music as one of their primary evangelistic tools. That's how they broaden
00:16:53.260their tent. That's how they bring people into their heretical theological system is by their
00:16:58.920music. And the way it works is quite simply this. The unsuspecting person sitting in the pew on a
00:17:06.320Sunday morning, and they're looking up at the screen, reading the lyrics for the song, and
00:17:12.040they're singing the song and they see in the fine print down at the bottom, they'll see music by
00:17:17.900Bethel or music by Hillsong. And they think, oh, Bethel, oh, Hillsong. Well, they must be okay.
00:17:25.980We're singing their music. So I think I'll check them out. And so that is how they sunk in people.
00:17:34.640One of the primary ways that they bring people in to their cult is by their music and the
00:17:40.840unsuspecting person out there seeing that singing the song rightly would assume that these churches
00:17:48.000quote-unquote must be okay because we're singing their music right and um yeah i always just cringe
00:17:55.680when i go to a church and uh they throw up a hillsong song on the screen or bethel music you
00:18:02.880You know, I just absolutely cringe because these churches are exposing.
00:18:10.560I mean, I'm talking about the good churches that will sing good churches that sing this bad music there, whether willingly or inadvertently, they are exposing their flock to the wolves.
00:18:23.800They're exposing their sheep to the wolves.
00:18:26.500and one of the primary responsibilities of a pastor, of an elder, is to protect the flock
00:18:32.840from the wolves. And so by singing this music, we're not protecting our flocks from the wolves,
00:18:38.060we're exposing them to the wolves. We're inviting them to go into the wolves' lair.
00:18:48.260And so that is one of the primary objections that I have with singing Bethel or Elevation or
00:18:54.980you're right it's um i like what you said we're exposing them to wolves um and then i i know you
00:19:01.660would agree with this i would go even further and say we're as bad as that is a shepherd exposing
00:19:07.260his own flock of sheep to wolves uh it's it's even worse because you're exposing them to wolves
00:19:12.400without identifying that they're wolves so so you're exposing them to wolves that don't look
00:19:19.780like wolves that are wolves that are dressed in sheep's clothing you know that satan masquerades
00:19:24.660as an angel of light. And, and you're exposing them to this angel of light, to these wolves in
00:19:31.120sheep's clothing. And, and you're not even, you're not even giving them the heads up. Hey, so, so
00:19:38.760today during our worship service, we're going to give you a lot of good doctrine. We're going to
00:19:42.760give you, we're going to give you sheep some, some good water to drink, some green grass. We're going
00:19:47.140to make sure you lie down, you get some rest and you're going to, you're going to have a good time.
00:19:51.240This is going to be good for your soul.
00:19:53.480It's going to be pleasing to the Lord.
00:19:55.320But we are going for a brief moment, about four to five minutes.
00:19:58.580We're going to go pass by a den of wolves over here.
00:22:24.440So third reason that I had here, and you might have another bonus reason that you might be thinking of,
00:22:30.940But the third reason I had was just saying that I think it might have been D.A. Carson who said this back in the day and I liked it.
00:22:37.100And once you say it enough, then you can you can say, you know, as I always say, but I'll give him credit because I know I got it from someone.
00:22:44.480It wasn't me. But I think he said that, you know, there's there are there are worship songs that that may not be heretical objectively in their lyrics,
00:22:53.880but their lyrics are so theologically anemic that it doesn't combat the heresy that's already in my
00:23:01.620heart. And I thought that was really good. Just saying that even as Christians, we're sinners,
00:23:08.280sinners saved by grace. But every Christian, every step of the way, but especially younger
00:23:13.400Christians in the Lord, we're walking into the church on the Lord's day with preconceived
00:23:20.720notions about christ about god the father about the holy spirit about the christian life about
00:23:25.980the law of god about the gospel of god that are wrong right like none of us have perfect theology
00:23:31.400and so so even for myself as a pastor and for you as an evangelist who travels and teaches
00:23:36.880the bible all over the world um there is still there's still holes in our doctrine and and
00:23:44.100things that we don't have a full proper understanding of and some things that we
00:23:48.320might have even a wrong understanding of. And so that doesn't make us a heretic per se, but there
00:23:53.800are certain things where, you know, we're like, and not even that, but just the, I keep thinking
00:23:59.240the prone to wonder, you know, which I think is a great song to use in worship. The hymn,
00:24:04.480you know, like prone to wonder, Lord, I feel it. Prone to leave the God I love. And that's the
00:24:09.460reality. And not just for the unregenerate, but even for the Christian, the fight for faith is a
00:24:15.680fight. Faith is not static. It's not the default position. So even for the Christian, it's like
00:24:21.720pilgrim's progress, right? It's a journey. It's uphill. It's a battle and it doesn't come0.97
00:24:28.600easy. And so with all the wrong preconceived notions and just the idolatry in our hearts,
00:24:36.560you know, so even if it's not heresy necessarily in our heart, there's idolatry in our hearts,
00:24:40.480things that we love and cherish and trust in as Christians. I'm speaking to the Christian
00:24:45.680in that moment more than Christ. And so on the Lord's day, when we're singing, I don't just need
00:24:52.140songs that are heresy free. I need songs that are just like I need sermons and everything else and
00:24:59.840prayers. I need prayers, sermons, and songs that are nutrient dense, that are packed with not just
00:25:07.840that are heresy-free or idolatry-free, but they're packed with the nutrients that expel
00:25:14.080the heresy and the idolatry and the sin that I've already gotten in my heart, that I already,
00:25:21.000that I'm showing up to church not just to, because if not, then why am I even, what's the point?
00:25:27.160I'm showing up to church not just to leave the same way I came in. I'm showing up to hear a word
00:25:33.620from God and, and for it to, to begin to expel, expel rather the sin in my heart. And so I just
00:25:45.560think there's so much better music. So could you, with, with that, like what, what are some of the
00:25:51.160standards, I guess, this is kind of maybe more of a personal question, but what are kind of the
00:25:55.080standards that you would hold for the worship music that a church should use? What makes the
00:25:59.840cut? How do you determine that? Yeah, well, the lyrics have got to be, I mean, this might be an
00:26:09.180overused phrase, but doctrinally sound. They've got to be deep. They've got to be rich. You know,
00:26:15.180read the lyrics of some of our hymns, like, and can it be? You know, read those lyrics. They're
00:26:23.340profound. They're deep. They point to God. You know, they don't point to me. They're not shallow.
00:26:29.840And that's what you see with so much of the contemporary stuff that's coming out today.
00:26:41.560I mean, you're not going to see a song from Bethel or Hill song that teaches like, you know, the little God's doctrine or something like that directly.
00:26:49.480But the lyrics are so many of their songs.
00:26:55.040Well, a lot of them have a romanticized view of Jesus.
00:26:59.840You know, a lot of their songs you could sing to your boyfriend or your girlfriend and it would fit right in.