The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - 5 Doctrines That Stunt Sanctification w The King's Hall

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00:00:18.040 Hi, and welcome to another episode of Theology Applied.

00:00:20.720 I am Pastor Joel Webbin, your host with Right Response Ministries,

00:00:23.920 and I am wishing you a very Merry Christmas.

00:00:26.560 For the next few weeks, we're going to do some of our most popular, and we believe also

00:00:32.040 most beneficial and useful episodes to date with Theology Applied.

00:00:36.880 This episode is with the members of the King's Hall podcast.

00:00:40.300 That's Brian Sauve, Dan Burkholder, and Eric Kahn, where we talk about five particular

00:00:46.140 doctrines that we believe pose incredible danger to the body of Christ.

00:00:51.740 These doctrines are not necessarily heretical in and of themselves.

00:00:56.560 But without a doctrine necessarily being a heresy, it can still be unbiblical, wrong,

00:01:03.620 and harmful.

00:01:04.800 Tune in now.

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00:04:05.580 Applying God's word to every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied.

00:04:15.820 All right, welcome to another episode of Theology Applied. I am your host,

00:04:19.380 Pastor Joel Webman with Right Response Ministries, and today I'm very privileged to have a special

00:04:23.800 guest, three guests. They are the host, the co-host of the King's Hall podcast. We've got

00:04:30.420 Brian Sauve. You want to say Sauve or Suave or just Suave, but I've been told that it is Sauve.

00:04:37.060 So we've got Brian Sauve. We've got Dan. Give me your last name, Dan. How do you say it?

00:04:42.900 Burkholder.

00:04:43.760 Burkholder. Dan Burkholder. And then we have Eric Kahn, who is also the host of the Hard Man

00:04:49.540 podcast. And so me and Eric, we've kind of combined forces a few times now. And so I'm

00:04:55.980 glad to have you back on the show. So you guys tell us a little bit about yourselves and especially

00:04:59.420 the King's Hall podcast. Wow. This is the Brian Sauve moment. I know. This is a test of who

00:05:09.640 thinks they're the alpha of the King's Hall. No, no, no, no, no. It's just that you do most of the

00:05:14.320 talking. So we just defer to you. Well, my name is Brian Sauve, as Joel said, and you nailed the

00:05:20.120 pronunciation, by the way. I pastor Refuge Church in Ogden, Utah, where we all serve together

00:05:27.240 here in Mormon land. I've got five kids and my wife, Lexi. We are working hard and staying up

00:05:36.020 late with all of those wonderful duties the Lord's given us. But yeah, we have a good time

00:05:41.700 with the King's Hall. This season, we're primarily addressing the question of what would it take to

00:05:46.940 build a new Christendom? What would need to go and what would need to be established if we were

00:05:52.500 to build a durable, reformed, Protestant, robustly Christian Christendom that could last for a

00:06:00.160 thousand years or more. And so it sounds like we're thinking about a lot of the same things

00:06:04.220 as you think about here on this show. And we do appreciate you having us. Thanks for the invite.

00:06:10.260 Absolutely. So Christendom is bad, right? The Spanish Crusades. How would you respond?

00:06:15.800 What do you think about that?

00:06:17.280 well well you know we're probably we're not necessarily telling people that we're going

00:06:22.920 to go retake constantinople is that what it is uh i think so uh so so surely certainly there are

00:06:30.720 some errors in the in the old christendom but we would say that the the current thing that we have

00:06:36.080 now is even worse than that so yeah yeah we're we're not necessarily just uncritically trying

00:06:43.340 to replicate the old Christendom, but even reform and understand some of the ways that

00:06:49.540 failure might've been built into the foundation stones of aspects of the first Christendom

00:06:54.400 and build one that would continually improve and be reformed according to the scriptures

00:07:00.400 and, you know, bear fruit.

00:07:03.120 Amen.

00:07:03.920 Might even be better.

00:07:05.020 Yep. Amen.

00:07:05.660 Some of the things that I've really benefited from King's Hall podcast in terms of Christendom,

00:07:10.060 rebuilding Christendom and those kinds of things. It's just, you know, thinking in terms of, you

00:07:14.060 know, culture, cultus is a Latin word. It means worship. It's not so the rush to any kind of

00:07:17.960 thing. It's not whether, but which everybody's worshiping. Secularism is not science. It's a

00:07:22.640 religion, modernity, secularism, and all it's nasty, you know, offspring of feminism and all 0.66

00:07:29.240 these androgyny, everything that's come out of it. It is worship. It has therefore an orthodoxy. 0.61

00:07:35.120 It has convictions. It has beliefs, dogma, everything outside of that is blaspheming.

00:07:39.320 And so there are blasphemy laws, right? That's cancel culture, things that you can't say. There 0.56

00:07:43.100 are sacraments that go along with their worship. Um, I think it was a hardest boss that talks about

00:07:48.440 the Asherah poles and compares them. It reminds me of the two towers and tearing down the trees 0.99

00:07:53.340 of Isengard, uh, because they, they represent life and fruitfulness. And an Asherah pole is a tree

00:07:59.000 that's been stripped of all its limbs, all its branches. It's, it's unable to bear fruit. And

00:08:03.800 you think of you know chopping off um a boy's manhood you know and uh and transgenderism and 1.00

00:08:09.860 especially as that pertains to transing children and making them fruitless and so there you have 0.97

00:08:14.560 the asherah pole and then of course you have the sacrament of abortion you know and and you know

00:08:19.480 the false god of molek and these kinds of things so it is a religion it's not whether but which

00:08:23.460 and you guys do a really good job pointing that out and in terms of christendom it's it's the

00:08:28.060 same as the founding of America, at least in principle, um, that, you know, that, you know,

00:08:32.660 there are bugs and there are features. And we would say that, you know, race-based slavery was

00:08:37.340 a bug and the founding and our constitution and our ideals as we lived up to them, um, is precisely

00:08:45.060 why that bug was worked out. So the solution is not anti-Christendom. The solution is, uh, as Doug

00:08:50.520 Wilson would say, Christendom 2.0, and let's see if we can do it better. So, all right. Um, we'll,

00:08:55.720 we'll go ahead and dive in any, any, uh, response though on my little Christendom spill. Did it,

00:09:01.520 did I get it right? Nailed it. Yeah, that was great. Okay, great. All right. So this is what

00:09:07.520 we want to do in the show. We want to talk about as we're trying to restore and rebuild,

00:09:11.940 build back better, uh, but actually, actually, actually better, not build back worse. Um, but

00:09:20.320 But as we want to usher in Christodom, we, you know, re-usher that back in and do it

00:09:27.000 and do it better and do it out of one of the reasons we can do it better is not because

00:09:30.240 we're better men, but we're standing on the shoulders of giants and those wonderful men

00:09:34.200 who came before us.

00:09:35.960 And so, you know, one of the ways that God, you know, whether it be a nation and empires

00:09:41.420 or Christodom or whatever it might be, is that God uses those failed empires, all that

00:09:47.000 was good in it, right? You know, removing the sin, but all that was good in it, it functions as the

00:09:53.000 manure. Toby Sumter talks about this, you know, that makes the ground more fertile in order to

00:09:57.340 produce something better the next time. And so as we're seeking to do that, we want to look at

00:10:02.160 things that went wrong and we want to look at things that need to be revised. How can we do

00:10:05.800 this better? And so my thesis, I want to frame up the show like this. My thesis is I feel like

00:10:11.740 over the past 20 to 30 years um in the evangelical world there's been a reformed resurgence right you

00:10:19.140 know a lot of guys became calvinists now a lot of them never really became calvinists like you know

00:10:23.700 rc sprawl says what do you call a four-point calvinist an arminian you know and so uh so guys

00:10:28.600 like mark driscoll never really became uh reformed you know but but some guys actually did and then

00:10:34.420 you know god has just over the last few years taken his winnowing fork and and just separating

00:10:38.800 the wheat and the chaff. And so some guys went from, you know, young reformed restless to

00:10:43.180 full blown apostasy. And then other guys have gone to a four full orbed confessional reformed

00:10:49.760 position, not just Calvinistic, you know, Baptist, you know, but, but actually really embracing,

00:10:55.480 you know, whether it be Sabbatarianism or patriarchy or like a general equity theonomy,

00:11:02.140 you know, or post-millennialism, like more of a full or mature reformed theology. So God took this

00:11:07.260 Calvinistic resurgence and half of it went apostate and the other half of it is maturing

00:11:13.360 and growing up and not just, you know, boys, but men. And so we thank God for that. And I think

00:11:19.200 that what the Lord has done, I'm thinking of not just the young reformed and restless, but thinking

00:11:23.200 of just the reformed movement over the last 30 years combined. Ligonier, grace to you. Think of

00:11:27.680 like Paul Washer, you know, all these different guys, Votie Bauckham. It seems like what the Lord

00:11:32.820 used these men to do in our own lives, and we're exceedingly grateful for it, is really expose

00:11:38.580 heresy. So you can have a false doctrine that's unbiblical, but orthodox, that meaning it's wrong.

00:11:45.960 We're not relativists, right? So it's like, all right, it's not heresy, but it's still wrong.

00:11:49.060 It's still unbiblical. And then you can have doctrines that they're not merely unbiblical,

00:11:52.400 but they're outside of the realm of orthodoxy. And it seems like the last 20, 30 years,

00:11:56.440 the Lord has used reformed guys primarily, but other guys as well, to expose some of these

00:12:01.240 things that are straight up heresy, that will damn you to hell. Things like the prosperity gospel,

00:12:07.280 things like Roman Catholicism, things like, you know, that would deny the gospel. And, you know,

00:12:12.760 so all these different things, prosperity gospel, I feel like every conference for the last 30 years

00:12:16.740 was, you know, it's like half of the speakers would say, this is why Catholicism is bad.

00:12:22.600 This is why charismatics are bad. This is why Catholicism is bad. And this is why charismatics 0.60

00:12:27.300 are bad. And so it's like, great. We appreciate that. American gospel, the documentary they put

00:12:32.060 out, I appreciate it. Thank you. But we want to press on to maturity. And so basically for this

00:12:38.980 episode, what I want to do is list some doctrines that aren't necessarily prosperity gospel. They're

00:12:44.800 not necessarily heresy, but I think they're still unbiblical. I'm going to give my list in order of 0.99

00:12:48.860 what I think is most dangerous, stunting the maturity of the church to least dangerous, 0.85

00:12:54.460 but all five being what I would consider orthodox but again wrong unbiblical and unhelpful stunting

00:13:04.640 the church's growth and then I want to see if you guys agree with my list if you want to add

00:13:08.820 something to the list take something off the list what would be your list of the top five and then

00:13:13.440 at minimum I think you guys would disagree maybe with the order of my list so here's my list no

00:13:17.880 without further ado number one radical two kingdom theology and in parentheses I'm putting

00:13:23.860 there pietism, an idea that it's just the home of the church, the home of the church, the home of

00:13:28.900 the church. And so, you know, there's not a single square inch of all of creation that Christ doesn't

00:13:36.180 cry out mine. This would be, you know, anti-Kyper, the all of Christ for all of life. They want some 0.99

00:13:42.080 of Christ for some of life. So a radical two kingdom theology, I think is number one. I think

00:13:47.440 it's the worst. Second, dispensationalism, anti-covenant theology. I think dispensationalism,

00:13:53.300 that's second on my list of most dangerous. Then I put complementarianism in that. Yeah,

00:13:59.020 sure. You know, egalitarianism, you know, but complementarianism, it seeks to make roles,

00:14:05.300 God assigning roles to men and women arbitrary in my assessment. And so it lends towards sexual

00:14:10.460 androgyny that men and women are really the same. But for whatever reason, God's just determined

00:14:15.580 that we have different roles. And I think that's led to a lot of sexual chaos. Number four,

00:14:20.620 all millennialism. I think that that's worse in my assessment in terms of stunting the growth

00:14:26.220 of the church than pre-millennialism. And so pre-millennialism is number five.

00:14:31.220 My last one, the reason why I'm putting all millennialism as more dangerous than pre-millennialism

00:14:35.560 is I found, I don't know if it's your experience, but I found that there are more dispensational

00:14:40.820 pre-millennial guys, especially the historic guys, but even dispensational pre-mill guys who are

00:14:46.500 willing to actually fight in the culture war, that actually want to see all of Christ for all

00:14:51.600 of life, that actually think, you know, basic things like Christians should vote. And whereas 0.85

00:14:57.360 all millennials, I always say, you know, all millennialism and post-millennialism, we agree

00:15:02.960 on the timing of the millennium, but pre-mill and post-mill agree on the nature. And I feel like the

00:15:10.660 timing is important, but the nature seems to be more important. Pre-mill guys actually think that 0.99

00:15:15.180 Jesus reigning has an effect on earth, even if he's not reigning yet. Whereas it seems like some

00:15:21.360 of the all male guys, not all of them, but a decent amount, the reign of Christ is in terms

00:15:27.280 of earthly, tangible, physical effects is inconsequential. And I think that that's a 0.85

00:15:32.280 bigger problem. So number one, radical two kingdom theology. Number two, dispensationalism. Number

00:15:36.840 three, complementarianism, add androgyny, egalitarianism in there. Number four,

00:15:42.280 all millennialism, which I think can be another form of pietism and the number five pre millennialism,

00:15:48.220 which is just the eschatological pessimism. What do you guys think?

00:15:54.860 Yeah, well, I was going to say, Joel, it's overall, I think a good list, like any good

00:15:58.780 Presbyterian, you know, we always take our exceptions. It's what struck me is, first of all,

00:16:06.540 there should be a picture somewhere on here of Tim Keller. You know, he's been in the news lately.

00:16:12.280 been on Twitter. What I would say about his stuff is sort of, I don't know what exactly you call it,

00:16:18.240 but sort of the middle way ism. I would definitely put that on this list. That's a good one.

00:16:24.460 It's interesting, too, because sort of, in my mind, the two flavors that run through everything

00:16:28.580 on the list are sort of like Gnosticism and Pietism. And so like, maybe it shows up in

00:16:34.560 eschatology, maybe it shows up in, you know, your sexual theology, complementarianism, for example.

00:16:40.440 but fundamentally it's kind of these two undergirding things of pietism and

00:16:44.800 Gnosticism that sort of plague everything. You know,

00:16:47.880 we don't think that physical bodies and physical realities really matter.

00:16:52.220 And so these two things tend to downplay all of them. I don't,

00:16:56.700 I don't really have a disagreement I think on any of these. You know,

00:17:00.660 we recently did a podcast on our top books and we had about 50 picks for the

00:17:06.280 top five so that was my fault i'm very indecisive as these other men yeah eric all the sudden is

00:17:12.760 like in my number four cluster is and we're like number four cluster well they're not even like

00:17:18.300 connected they're not even connected it was so sneaky but then we all were like okay if that's

00:17:24.720 what we're doing that's funny yeah okay so what do you guys think brian dan you know i would i

00:17:30.600 would agree with your list in uh everything that's on there i would find similar issues and i think

00:17:36.140 The way that you framed the ones that I think people might have the most issue with who are closer to us would be amillennialism and complementarianism, where they might agree with a lot of the other stuff, but maybe not see what's happening in the amillennial instinct that we would object to and say, from the foundations, you are making yourself impotent.

00:17:58.560 And it is pietism. It's this instinct where I agree, the premillennialist actually takes these texts more seriously. And they just say, well, we don't think that's happening now, but we do think it's going to happen.

00:18:12.180 You know, like Christ reigning from sea to sea, from the river to the ends of the earth. Well, that's the spiritual kingdom, the amillennialist would say. And so I do have a lot of respect for those who are, you know, I'm a premillennialist, historic premillennialist, they might say, but it's because I take these texts so seriously.

00:18:31.520 Right. So I agree with that. I think complementarianism on the list. Again, what we're talking about and the reason that we need to object to it is because we're basically removing, we're making it arbitrary by removing the reason for which men ought to rule in the home and the church.

00:18:53.160 and we're just saying it was a coin flip instead of no god actually made something in the the nature

00:19:00.660 of maleness and in the nature of femaleness that will show up everywhere in every sphere of the

00:19:08.140 world right and when you lose that principle you've lost you've really lost i mean everything

00:19:14.880 in principle and you're going to end up egalitarian eventually i always tell people i always tell

00:19:19.860 people with a home in the church you know because it limits it to the home of the church i always

00:19:22.860 tell people, you know, an amazing thing happened the other day. It was the Lord's day and my wife

00:19:26.980 and I were leaving church and we, you know, we pulled out of the parking lot and she still had 0.92

00:19:31.520 breast. It blew my mind. It was unbelievable. And I, for one, you know, when I looked over at my 0.56

00:19:38.740 wife in the seat, I was happy. Praise God. I praise, I sang the doxology again. You weren't

00:19:45.820 even in the sanctuary one thing for your other podcast bro i think you're welcome

00:19:50.600 one thing i would add to the list um and and i i don't think you actually missed it i think you

00:19:57.540 included it in your things we've dealt with in like the prosperity gospel and charismania

00:20:03.020 but i i would still add some kind of um instinct of revivalism where where the church is conflating

00:20:12.900 emotional response to spiritual things with spiritual maturity.

00:20:18.700 And you would add to that like the decisionism, right?

00:20:20.920 Yeah, revivalism, decisionism. And I think that while we've probably in a lot of reform circles

00:20:27.120 dealt with the formal issues of prosperity gospel and hyper charismania, I don't think that we've

00:20:33.960 properly or adequately dealt with the instinct that would say, well, how's your quiet time?

00:20:40.400 And what they mean is like, how are your emotions rather than where the more mature Christian

00:20:49.180 instinct, which would be to say, my faith is in the objectivity of God's work and his promises

00:20:54.720 to me. I'm going to believe them and do my duties before God with as cheerful a heart as I can

00:21:00.600 muster today by the grace of God. And I'm going to tell my emotions, kneel to King Jesus. So I

00:21:07.960 still think that's that's part of it's all wrapped up in effeminacy this kind of like designing of

00:21:13.040 the church service around emotionalistic responses so there's a lot of these that the threads are

00:21:18.940 interwoven yeah and i would definitely add that and and with that you know i always think of

00:21:24.300 federal vision and doug wilson so i i don't prescribe to federal vision but um i think i

00:21:29.540 think that was the heart behind it you know and doug wilson you know in his defense i think good

00:21:34.100 intentions. And I think he's backed off. And I think there's also a spectrum within the federal

00:21:38.300 vision camp. And there are guys who are much more hardcore than Doug would be. So all that being

00:21:43.680 said, all the disclaimers out there, I think the heart behind it, the intent was working against

00:21:50.100 the revivalism and decisionism of all these people wrestling with assurance of salvation,

00:21:55.380 myself for several years being one of them, like, well, I'm probably not saved. I'm probably not

00:21:58.720 saved. I'm probably like every day having to re-decide to be a Christian, having to

00:22:03.800 you know, feel something and work something up. And I think Doug was just a lot of different

00:22:08.320 aspects, but I really think that that was like the core intention of the federal vision movement

00:22:12.440 was just to try to provide some kind of clear, tangible, you know, fruits, evidence, proof of

00:22:21.040 like, this is in, this is out. Yeah. This is living faith. Yeah. Objectivity of the covenant.

00:22:26.680 Right. And, you know, Joel, after you said that, I'm wondering, maybe you should get baptized

00:22:30.900 again. Sounds like you've maybe sinned since we were baptized. So I don't know. You should

00:22:35.680 consider that. I don't think it's by accident that we saw a rise in dispensationalism and

00:22:43.700 denying the covenants, along with revivalism. And so that emotionalism and the denying of the

00:22:51.700 objectivity of the covenant, like Brian said, have gone hand in hand. And so you're positionally

00:22:57.420 always unsure because you're you don't have this framework of god's covenants right working but god

00:23:02.780 has actually declared over you because you are responsible then for your standing essentially

00:23:08.480 in you know apart from these covenants right and so i you know that's not really a surprise

00:23:13.620 right and that becomes the motivation the motivation is uh fear-based rather than uh

00:23:18.920 confidence in christ and and and it makes sense that pre-mill you know would would go right right

00:23:24.200 there with dispensationalism it's like every day i need to make you know so it's it's a diluting of

00:23:29.040 the covenantal promises um and and a removal of the objective reality of being in christ and and

00:23:36.160 it becomes more of a subjective personal individual feeling and and a decision that needs to be made

00:23:41.580 and remade and remade and so there's the fear there fear incentive and then on top of it um

00:23:47.900 jesus you know is you know could come back tomorrow you know and and uh things are going

00:23:52.900 going to get worse and worse until he does. So you better be resolute. You better be standing

00:23:56.320 strong. So it really feels like fear, fear-based. Yeah. And I think, I think another thing that

00:24:02.240 could be on the list would be denying legacy, which is a fruit. It's not exactly a category

00:24:08.020 in itself, but it's definitely a fruit of all of these because Brian said, this is, you know,

00:24:13.240 impotent theology. And this morning I was, I was thinking through this list and I was like,

00:24:18.200 this is really castrated Christianity. This is fruitless Christianity. If it was a house,

00:24:22.900 it would be like issues with the foundation, with the roof and the HVAC. That's what all of these

00:24:28.080 are. And you're not thinking like, oh man, I, I'm, you know, I better attend this so that I can pass

00:24:33.680 it on to the next generation. You're like, man, I hope this thing doesn't fall apart in the next

00:24:37.100 15 minutes. Right. Yeah. And that's kind of, um, so, so all of these theologies are not looking

00:24:44.220 past themselves in, in a lot of ways. You're not going to be passing this on to the next generation,

00:24:49.740 like a robust covenant theology, post-mill, Calvinistic theology, passing it on to the

00:24:58.180 next generations. It really does deny your legacy. And so just looking through your list,

00:25:03.800 I was ready to disagree with you. I really wanted to pick a fight somewhere. And I was talking to

00:25:09.620 Brian. I'm like, I think complementarianism should be number one. It's not necessarily

00:25:13.320 like my least favorite. Like if I R2K theology, radical two kingdoms, man, I loathe that theology.

00:25:20.340 I absolutely loathe it. And I was making an argument to Brian about complementarianism

00:25:25.820 being so dangerous because there's so much gravity in our culture towards sexual, sexual

00:25:32.800 androgyny, you know, it's towards this like grayness of gray blob humanity, you know, denying

00:25:38.960 the image bearingness of God into self-definition of the person. And he said, well, that's really

00:25:48.560 kind of the same thing that R2K theology does. It's just another category of it. They're so 0.90

00:25:53.560 connected. But this, and tying it all together within pietism, the roots of pietism, another

00:26:01.520 reason why I would say it's castrated is because pietism in its essence was this pietist movement

00:26:07.780 was founded because of how tired they were of fighting this Lutheran pietistic movement.

00:26:13.740 They didn't want to fight anymore. And a Christianity that does not fight will ultimately 0.91

00:26:19.620 lose. They will be swallowed up. It won't produce fruit. I mean, the Bible, the scriptures are just 0.99

00:26:26.140 chock full of language of fighting, you know, in this, in this cosmic battle. And so it really does

00:26:34.120 this list, I think I would put it in the same order you did, even all-mill over pre-mill,

00:26:40.320 because we've found the same thing is that we will gladly link arms with pre-mill brothers

00:26:46.940 because they're willing, even if our eschatologies are radically different, our motivations,

00:26:53.440 you know, you say like, hey, we should go fight. We should go take that hill. And they're like,

00:26:56.460 okay, yeah, let's do it. You know, whereas the all-mill guy is like, well, that's a spiritual

00:27:00.900 hill it's like no actually the hill's right there it's real we should go take it we can take it we

00:27:05.600 should go take it no we should have taken it like jesus is ruling spiritually over the spiritual

00:27:11.040 hills right he owns the spiritual cattle on all yeah no they spiritualized jesus right out of his

00:27:17.000 lordship for for sure and jesus becomes sequestered his his king kingship becomes sequestered

00:27:23.140 and quarantined to the heart right we used to say jesus is lord of all now we say jesus is lord of

00:27:27.660 my sweet little heart and and so it's a confinement of of his lordship so i know i think that's great

00:27:33.120 dan so real quick can you do this dan let's i think we need to define some of our terms because

00:27:37.220 otherwise um people are going to just think that we're egotistical you know just spouting all these

00:27:42.160 things we don't actually know what they mean and for me the guiding force of ministry is always

00:27:46.260 what people think so uh so uh it shows so i want everybody to like me so let's define our terms

00:27:53.740 and, uh, and try not to be, uh, try not to be presumptuous. So, uh, Dan, can you take pietism?

00:27:59.560 What would is pietism? Yeah, sure. I can give you, uh, some of the historic roots of pietism and 0.65

00:28:05.900 then, uh, you know, kind of define it. So really the roots of pietism came out of the 17th century.

00:28:11.980 Um, there were folks that were sick of this in this infighting within Protestantism and with,

00:28:18.400 uh the catholics you know so the protestant catholic fighting uh was pretty intense i mean

00:28:24.840 like you know there's a reason that bloody mary got her name that way because she killed

00:28:29.060 protestants i mean so within this uh debating doctrine and and um desire to hammer out truth

00:28:36.660 and to figure out like you know what is this reformation what are we reforming what did the

00:28:41.360 past say they this pietistic movement the roots of the pietists they grew sick of this this fighting

00:28:47.120 And so this led to some movements that is distinct from Lutheranism. It came out of Lutheranism, but it's not necessarily the doctrines of Lutheran, you know, conservative, reformed Lutheran theology today.

00:29:01.340 but it's really a distinction between, uh, the head and the heart. And so it became, um, they

00:29:08.220 have this really strong distinction between head and heart, uh, of emotion, how you feel and this,

00:29:15.280 um, this somewhat disdain for, uh, theology proper. Uh, and so this led to, for example,

00:29:24.120 in Bible studies, uh, became very introspective instead of what is true. The question is asked,

00:29:30.540 how does this make you feel or what does this mean to you? Uh, and so that's how I would

00:29:35.420 describe some of the roots of pietism. And so you can see that, you know, the mega church Ted talk

00:29:43.460 sermon is all about how to, how does this make you feel? That is really one of the root questions.

00:29:50.680 So even you, you joke, like you care what people think that's, that's a pietistic impulse,

00:29:56.280 you know as far as emotions being very important in that movement right yeah no i completely agree

00:30:04.080 i would add to that like i you know if i could you just do a two-word definition i say pietism

00:30:08.460 is privatized lordship right that jesus is just it's just this personal and so it's this emphasis

00:30:14.240 on quiet time right so how do i know i'm doing well in in the christian faith well i have a

00:30:18.920 quiet time every single day i've been doing it for 40 years it's great great awesome um so so

00:30:24.320 what's the fruit of your quiet time well my my children have gone apostate and um you know and

00:30:29.220 uh this and that you know and so it's like yeah okay well faith without works is dead like what

00:30:35.000 there should be there should be some fruit of this 40 year quiet time um yeah so thank you it ends up

00:30:41.080 being like christianity is a cesspool instead of as a stream yeah you know and so everything gets

00:30:46.280 damned up and it becomes rotten instead of having an outflow i like your definition better than mine 0.95

00:30:52.200 No, no, no. Yeah, it's short. Okay. So Brian, and then I'll go to you, Eric. I want you to do 0.98

00:30:57.640 complementarianism. Because people are like, complementarianism, why is that bad? But Brian,

00:31:02.100 first, can you do radical two kingdom theology? Explain a little bit of that.

00:31:07.880 Yeah. Radical two kingdom theology, very briefly, at the heart, it's making a division between

00:31:14.120 the common kingdom and the spiritual kingdom. So that's really the sine qua non of radical

00:31:20.020 two kingdom theology. It's saying there's this kingdom that Christ rules over. It's his spiritual

00:31:24.300 kingdom. It's his church. And so whenever they look at passages of scripture about the spread

00:31:30.260 of the kingdom, like the mustard seed, Daniel and the stone in the mountain, they're saying,

00:31:36.120 yes, we believe that the church is going to spread through the whole world. We absolutely

00:31:40.460 believe that. But then they divorce that from the effect of leaven being present everywhere in the

00:31:47.240 world. And they say, well, there's this other kingdom. It's called the common kingdom. It was

00:31:52.240 established in the Noahic covenant, Genesis 9. And it basically is just ruled through natural law

00:31:58.260 and human reason. So it sounds pretty straightforward. You're like, oh, that doesn't

00:32:04.700 sound too bad as long as you believe Christ is going to rule over the church, the spiritual

00:32:07.860 kingdom through the whole world. The problem is that as soon as you take that common kingdom and

00:32:13.660 say it's not ruled by scripture, and Christians aren't necessarily therefore going to have a

00:32:18.320 leavening effect on any of it, you've actually just divorced the transformational effect of

00:32:24.440 Christianity from everything outside of the four walls of the church. And that's why what you

00:32:30.820 described in complementarianism, with your wife still having breasts when she drove out of the

00:32:35.200 church parking lot, really you can see that it's the same instinct. That's what Dan was talking

00:32:40.860 about it's the reason that uh i would agree to put radical two kingdom at the top is because

00:32:47.540 what's bad about complementarianism is just an outworking of the principles of radical two

00:32:52.700 kingdom theology so you know you'll hear people say like um those there's this neutral politics

00:32:59.620 is this neutral common kingdom sort of issue um you can read i think brian mattson and another

00:33:06.000 guy wrote a book on this where they were talking about how you know two kingdoms guys will say

00:33:11.100 yeah so how does the bible affect how you'd make a stir fry and that's like their point of trying

00:33:16.480 to say see there are all these neutral things the bible has nothing to do with and their rejoinder 0.72

00:33:21.400 was like really have you tried making dinner in india where they worship cows right does it does

00:33:28.100 your christianity affect the food there food how about deeply religious yeah islam yeah all of

00:33:34.460 christ for all of life rather than what you said earlier again great pithy summary some of christ

00:33:40.100 for some of life right that's how i would describe radical two kingdom i completely agree and it's

00:33:45.780 everything i like i think of art so like um i think it's pollock is his name the guy who just

00:33:49.820 splatters paint you know and yeah jackson jackson pollock right exactly yeah jackson pollock and

00:33:54.680 it's kind of you know you think of like the you know uh the emperor has no clothes right the little

00:33:59.380 boys like the only one who actually has the audacity to say he's naked you know and uh and

00:34:04.060 and and i feel like that happens like you know you you go into an art museum and it's the little 0.99

00:34:08.540 kids who actually have like the gravity to be able to say um i could do this painting this is stupid 0.65

00:34:13.820 you know and i think what's your favorite painting the storm on the sea of galilee like 0.91

00:34:17.440 look at all the colors and the people in the boat and they look at this like reader response

00:34:22.260 splattering and they're like but that but that came from that secular sacred divide um and and

00:34:27.580 everything in the secular realm became subjective. And so art was, was, was secular and, and then it

00:34:33.580 became subjective. And then you have, you know, we, we get expressions like beauty is in the eye

00:34:37.300 of the beholder. Right. And then you see that even with, you know, pertaining to complementarianism

00:34:41.740 and sexual ethics, you know, so now it's like, we, we got to get the fattest chick we can find

00:34:46.300 on the cover of a beauty magazine to say this is right. Because there is no objective standards 0.95

00:34:51.420 of physical beauty. And so like, I think, you know, from a post-millennial framework, I think

00:34:56.520 that we're going to have jason pollock paintings in museums uh hundreds of years from now maybe

00:35:00.880 it'll be a couple thousand years from now um but but they'll be there so that that society can go

00:35:05.620 and kids will go on field trips and stuff like that from their classical christian schools and

00:35:08.820 they'll go and and and they'll go and the point will be to go and laugh and make fun of jason

00:35:13.720 like and it'll be this glorious god glorifying thing like we'll go and we'll laugh and say isn't 0.98

00:35:18.440 that stupid like this is what happens when we reject christ um that you know that like we 0.93

00:35:23.420 actually there were people who actually thought that this was a good painting and the kids will 1.00

00:35:26.860 laugh and pat each other on the backs we'll all have a good time you know eat a hot dog and go

00:35:30.560 home and laugh at jason pollock and it'll be a beautiful thing and you know and we'll laugh at

00:35:34.380 you know uh the fat girls on the covers of beauty magazines and all those kind of things and not

00:35:38.660 saying that we're making fun of people who are fat but but what we're doing is we're saying we're

00:35:42.360 making fun of of the culture that tried to to force us to say that this is beautiful um that

00:35:48.040 said beauty is completely subjective no no it's not yes there are there's there's some measure of

00:35:52.840 personal preference, but there is a guiding universal transcendent standard of what is

00:35:58.720 beautiful. And the same way that, you know, so it's like engineering, right? It's not like a

00:36:03.300 free for all. Well, I think that, you know, that the foundation should be built. Like, no, it's

00:36:07.180 like there are things at work, right? There are standards and rules for building a suspension

00:36:11.580 bridge. And likewise with art, there is a universal standard to be able to say, yeah, that this guy

00:36:18.320 is artistic. This guy is talented. This guy, music, right? That guy can't sing. That guy can

00:36:24.400 sing. And we continue as a culture to gravitate away from that because ultimately we're gravitating

00:36:31.280 away from transcendent standards. What I would say with the two kingdom thing, so that was super

00:36:34.760 helpful, Brian. I like to say, maybe you guys will disagree with it. I think you'll agree.

00:36:39.880 But I like to say, just to make it real short, three spheres, two kingdoms, one king. Three

00:36:45.240 spheres two kingdoms one king and uh because what what's been helped so the lutheran um you know

00:36:50.740 perspective like martin luther himself kind of made the kingdoms um relegated them to the church

00:36:55.580 and the state you know and then you have you know long long time before him augustine right you know

00:37:00.160 the city of god and city of man um but but it seems as though that you know joe boot i think

00:37:05.300 is really helpful on this his mission of god and the work that he's done but um we do all four of

00:37:10.460 us just for the record for the listener we believe that there are two kingdoms the question is what's

00:37:15.140 the dividing line what's the distinction um and so we would say it's not two kingdoms as church

00:37:19.780 and state i i would use sovereign sphere language uh for that and say okay there's the home the

00:37:25.420 church and the state these are spheres uh the kingdoms is not church and state and it's not

00:37:29.960 secular and sacred um or or sacred and common um so it's it's not a secular sacred divide it's not

00:37:36.660 church and state divide that's a sphere thing not a kingdom thing um it's light and dark and and the

00:37:42.600 thing that blows people's minds, that really blew my mind in the last couple of years as I've been

00:37:47.100 studying these things, is that there is the kingdom of light within the civil magistrate.

00:37:53.600 And there's most certainly the kingdom of darkness within the church. What do you call

00:37:58.400 false teachers will arise from among you, right? What do you call apostates? What do you call,

00:38:05.240 that's the kingdom of darkness in the church. And what do you call Constantine, right? Or what do

00:38:11.780 you call a christian governor or or mayor or uh what do you call the overturning of roe and there's

00:38:17.220 obviously a lot more work to be done um we should have been functioning as roe never existed in the

00:38:22.660 first place right why are they desperately trying to codify it and not just codify roe but way beyond

00:38:26.780 that all the way to the moment of birth blah blah blah but you know it was never law but the point

00:38:31.020 is if if roe is overturned and i think it will be um that that is a a win um there's a lot more wins

00:38:37.000 that we need, but that is a win in terms of outside of the church, in the civil sphere,

00:38:43.360 the kingdom of light breaking through. If we cure cancer, right? All these things is pushing

00:38:49.700 back the kingdom of darkness, but it's not just because someone got saved. And so Joe Boots says

00:38:56.240 the church and the kingdom are not synonymous. There's massive overlap, but they're not a one

00:39:01.500 to one ratio synonymous. The church only numerically grows one way, conversion. But

00:39:07.300 the kingdom of God grows every time the good, the true, and the beautiful, those things which

00:39:12.280 align with the law of God and the gospel of God are furthered and pressed forward in any sphere

00:39:20.260 of human society. And so nobody could get saved. Now, I believe it would lend towards salvation,

00:39:26.540 but initially no one could actually get saved. So the church did not numerically grow.

00:39:31.500 but a good law was passed. The kingdom is advancing. And the kingdom advancing in these

00:39:38.740 other spheres in all of life, it lends towards the advancement of the church. And to be fair,

00:39:45.880 to play the devil's advocate, you know, the blood of the martyrs is also the seedbed of the church.

00:39:49.620 So the church grows under persecution, but we act as though that's the only way. And so then we do

00:39:54.840 these self-fulfilling prophecies where we rig the game to make us lose because we think that that's

00:39:59.400 going to be what's the church, the church grows when it's persecuted. But the church also does

00:40:04.220 really great, really great. When, when you have Christian rulers put in place, it explodes that 1.00

00:40:10.880 way too. So any thoughts on that? Briefly look at the growth of the, of the Christian church 0.99

00:40:16.520 through the Roman empire. And I think we were under 5% at about 300, five to under 10% for sure

00:40:24.020 within a century of Constantine, that number had grown to over 50%.

00:40:29.360 So the results of Christian governance, or you could argue about Constantine's genuineness or

00:40:36.360 whatever, but the fact remains, objectively, Constantine was claiming Christ and giving

00:40:43.980 freedom and decriminalizing Christianity. And the result was explosive growth. So a lot of the time

00:40:51.260 people want to universalize that, like you said, that principle of winning by losing.

00:40:55.780 Well, yeah, death, burial, and resurrection is true, but on the other side of resurrection,

00:41:00.340 there's 30, 60, 100-fold growth, and that's from the seed going into the ground and dying,

00:41:06.200 which is going to happen in families and nations. In God's story, it's going to happen over and

00:41:11.460 over, but the result, they want to take away the actual results of the seed being planted,

00:41:16.920 dying, and coming up. You're like, well, what about the 30, 60, and 100-fold?

00:41:20.060 Right. They want to die a million times between now and the return of Christ, but only resurrect once. And we see it as, no, we're going to die and resurrect and die and resurrect. They want to die over and over again, but only resurrect once. And we want to die and resurrect again and again and again as individuals, as families, as households, as nations, all those kinds of things.

00:41:39.180 So, yeah, I 100% agree with you.

00:41:41.400 And I think, you know, I forgot what it was.

00:41:46.120 Oh, I was going to say, you know, one of the things with the civil magistrate operating

00:41:50.340 by divine law, moral law, and personally, this might be another thing that we might

00:41:54.800 disagree on, but I see natural law and divine law as synonymous.

00:41:59.160 So I think that the combination of natural revelation in Romans 1 and natural law in

00:42:03.920 Romans 2, A plus B equals the Ten Commandments.

00:42:07.740 I think we can get all 10 commandments, including the Sabbath from natural revelation, right?

00:42:11.580 That people who are pagans with agriculture really, oh, well, if we break the land, you

00:42:15.860 know, in a one in seven year pattern, then you can grow crops better, you know, these

00:42:19.840 guys and, and, and, you know, natural revelation, you know, you know, there's a God in heaven.

00:42:23.760 Therefore, I think you can naturally and logically conclude that he alone is worthy of worship.

00:42:27.700 There's the first commandment that he's the invisible God.

00:42:30.500 So we shouldn't worship the creature, make his image, you know, engraven.

00:42:33.800 So there's the second commandment.

00:42:34.900 And obviously we should worship him with sincerity and truth and not make it vain and trivial

00:42:39.520 and trite.

00:42:40.100 There's a third commandment, the Sabbath, I've already talked about that, just seasons

00:42:43.360 and patterns and day and night and these kinds of things.

00:42:45.600 And then certainly the second table of the law, how we love our neighbor, commandment

00:42:49.480 five through 10, I think certainly comes from a natural law written on the hearts of men, 0.79

00:42:54.180 the Gentiles, without any special revelation. 1.00

00:42:56.500 You know, Paul says you're a law unto yourself, your consciences bear witness against you. 1.00

00:43:00.060 You're guilty of murder because you know that you shouldn't have murdered, even though

00:43:03.400 you've never had a preacher.

00:43:04.160 So personally, I would say moral law and natural law, divine law are synonymous. 0.99

00:43:10.820 And that's why every single pagan, every unbeliever is held accountable. 1.00

00:43:15.020 They are without an excuse, not just without an excuse to know the mere existence of God, 1.00

00:43:20.200 but without an excuse to know that this God who exists is also a holy God and that he's

00:43:24.500 written his law on tablets of human hearts and therefore they're accountable to obey

00:43:29.020 these things.

00:43:29.820 But all that being said, when the civil magistrate does a good job, when it's influenced and

00:43:33.720 discipled, when the church is discipling the civil magistrate, the state, and then the state

00:43:38.320 begins to actually produce justice and make good laws, that flows back into the church. One of the

00:43:45.280 reasons why the state is antinomian is because the church is antinomian. And one of the reasons 0.87

00:43:52.300 that the church is antinomian is because the state is antinomian. If you live in a society with a

00:43:56.980 state that is actually upholding justice according to God's justice, God's law, theonomy,

00:44:05.540 then it makes the church's job easier, in a sense, to preach the gospel, right? Because people

00:44:10.520 instinctively, so people are like, you don't need to tell people that they're sinners. They already

00:44:14.140 know. I would say, no, they did know. They did know. I think there was a time in America where,

00:44:19.360 you know, if somebody was a drunk, you didn't need to tell them that it was bad. I think you still

00:44:23.920 should have, but there was less of a need to tell them this is bad. But today, one of the unique

00:44:29.340 things, right, is when you call evil good and good evil, I think one of the unique things as we've

00:44:34.560 pulled back the blessing of God, as it's been pulled back on our nation and we've leant towards

00:44:40.400 this antinomianism, now it's not just preaching what God says about sin and the free grace that's

00:44:48.220 found in christ alone but we we actually have to make arguments for sin being sin because people

00:44:54.060 do instinctively know but there is a progressive um denial a progressive deception that comes by

00:45:00.980 suppressing the truth and deeds of unrighteousness and i think culturally where we're at as a society

00:45:05.280 as a whole is um with there there are people who are legitimately saying like no that abortion is

00:45:10.560 not sin and and i don't think they these at an individual level i don't think they actually

00:45:15.320 believe that. But, but that's, that's where as I would say the church has to preach sin more than

00:45:20.160 ever before, because in part, my point is because the civil magistrate has not been doing its job

00:45:25.560 because the church has failed to disciple the civil magistrate. So as the, as the state becomes

00:45:29.440 more and more lawless, the church has to pick up the slack and preach more and more law. And there

00:45:34.760 is, my point is there is overlap and they function in, in tandem in some sense, the state does matter.

00:45:40.320 It should be Christian and it has a benefit to the church when it is. So.

00:45:44.080 You know, Joe, that's a really good point. And we saw a microcosm of that example of

00:45:49.440 the state passing a righteous law or threatening to pass a righteous law and overturning Roe versus

00:45:55.200 Wade. And then the reaction to it producing actually righteousness on social media where

00:45:59.600 there were a bunch of women that are like, fine, if I can't kill my baby, then I'm going on a sex 1.00

00:46:03.760 strike. Right. You're right. No more fornication. Great. So righteous laws actually produce 1.00

00:46:10.720 righteousness, even, even in amongst the unrighteous, you know, but that's what righteous

00:46:15.240 laws are supposed to do is to produce righteousness, to, to restrain evil. And so we even saw that just

00:46:22.060 recently. You're right. You're right. Eric, complementarianism. What do you think? You like

00:46:26.640 it? You love it? Love it. Let's do it. Let's, let's just have it everywhere. Yeah, I know. I think,

00:46:32.680 you know, what's interesting is you guys were breaking these down. I think whether you're

00:46:37.700 talking radical two kingdoms whatever it is to your point joel uh what joe boot has said it's

00:46:43.340 really about churchianity right we want to keep the churchy things in the church and we want to

00:46:48.040 keep you know the so-called secular pagan things out there i think really what complementarian

00:46:53.400 complementarian is first of all is really hard to pronounce which is why it's a terrible theology

00:47:01.540 It's also hard to spell.

00:47:03.540 It is.

00:47:04.620 It is.

00:47:05.480 So it really comes out of the late 1980s, and you're getting a response to feminism and egalitarianism.

00:47:13.260 So really just feminism.

00:47:15.640 And so you get a lot of evangelical thinkers, Wayne Grudem and John Piper, Mary Cassian, some people like this.

00:47:22.420 They get together.

00:47:22.980 They say, how do we combat the feminism that's going on?

00:47:28.160 And really what they do is they say, well, let's really what we want to stress is that men and women complement each other.

00:47:36.360 So this is a couple of things. Number one, it's a downplaying of hierarchical order as found in like Ephesians five and six.

00:47:44.660 They're trying to stress, hey, look, you guys are, you know, you're different, but you complement each other.

00:47:50.300 And they really typically are going to want to downplay the fact that there's, you know, a wife has to submit, a husband is Lord, he is the authority.

00:48:00.380 And so even Mary Cassian has written on the Gospel Coalition, she's explained this, she said, we intentionally chose anti-hierarchical language.

00:48:10.620 And really, she comes out and says it.

00:48:14.140 It was a lot of the, like, Marxist thought that was influencing that decision.

00:48:18.840 John Piper will say the same thing.

00:48:21.060 Him and Grudem will say the same thing in their book, Recovering Biblical Womanhood and Manhood.

00:48:26.320 So how does it play out today?

00:48:28.300 Generally, you have a few camps of complementarianism.

00:48:31.220 You've got soft and harder.

00:48:33.740 And, you know, typically, though, what you're going to end up with is men and women, yeah, they kind of have some roles, but it's mostly relegated to family and the church.

00:48:44.240 um some uh they've been kind of picked on uh but the john pipers of the world he would be harder

00:48:52.080 in this camp where he's saying look i and he won't even honestly he won't even really be that 0.88

00:48:57.280 hard in my view he won't just come out and say look absolutely not women should not be serving

00:49:02.340 in law enforcement women should not be um serving in these like combat roles police officers john

00:49:09.680 will say, yeah, that's probably maybe not the best idea. Let's talk. And then you get the Amy 0.98

00:49:15.300 Byrd, Carl Truman camp, and they were actually ridiculing John Piper for this. So I think

00:49:20.760 fundamentally what's happening here, it's a war on biblical sexuality. And I think this one is

00:49:26.040 particularly dangerous. I've gone after it a lot because it is such a Trojan horse. It looks like, 0.97

00:49:32.660 many times is faithful reformed-ish guys who are saying yeah i'm complementarianism you know i'm

00:49:40.580 complementarian and and for a long time i would have said that too um i thought well i thought

00:49:45.660 that was the conservative position uh because really nobody at the time so like late 90s early

00:49:51.740 2000s nobody was really defending patriarchy right it was like well this is horrible except

00:49:57.120 for russell moore obviously yeah except for russell moore god bless him yeah that's right

00:50:03.420 so i think really it's a war on all of sexuality we have to recognize it as such

00:50:10.920 um it's a war against women as well it's not doing women any favors and we can also look at

00:50:16.860 the fruit of complementarianism it's been really bad for the church most of the people who've

00:50:21.840 defended it uh have given ground pretty quickly to the left and to false sexual ideology yeah i

00:50:29.980 completely agree what would you say to somebody who says but we find complementarian principles

00:50:34.240 within the trinity right there's a there's a hierarchy in the trinity you know um so like i

00:50:39.140 think of like eternal subordination of the son you know so i'm you know you know spoiler alert i'm i

00:50:44.540 would adhere to classical theism but for those who would say all right well you know the father

00:50:49.040 and the Son are equal in terms of the divine essence, nature, that the Son is fully God,

00:50:56.960 not partly God of the same substance, not just a similar substance, but the same substance.

00:51:01.180 So their essence and nature is equally worthy of worship and honor. And yet the Son plays a role

00:51:09.480 of submission to the Father. And then they would argue, and this continues beyond just his earthly

00:51:14.940 ministry, but that he is still subjected to the Father in terms of role, but equal to the Father

00:51:19.560 in terms of nature. And if we can see that within the Trinity, then we can do that within

00:51:23.380 gender roles with men and women. Yeah, I would say part of the issue here,

00:51:30.160 so, you know, like Bruce Ware, I've had him as a professor, you know, friends with Owen Strand,

00:51:36.180 a lot of the ESS debate. The way that I look at it is like, why do we even have to go there?

00:51:42.060 god said there's authority structures there's hierarchy it's very plain and very clear from

00:51:48.100 scripture let's base our arguments on the things that we know and are clear and not on the things

00:51:54.300 that are like conjecture about some hypothetical you know it's it's a it's a tough area when you're

00:51:59.760 like well how exactly does the um you know certain structure and i think that's typically what's

00:52:05.740 going to happen when you spend most of your time studying and researching doctrine of god not that

00:52:10.660 it's not important but i think sometimes you can you can miss the obvious like just read ephesians

00:52:16.120 5 and it is hyper crystal clear you can read genesis 1 and 2 and you see that i mean any it

00:52:22.840 pretty much any honest old testament scholar will tell you the act of naming which god delegates to

00:52:28.800 adam is de facto authority and who does he name the woman he clearly has authority over her you

00:52:38.740 know submission and obedience i mean these so that's what i would say just go to what's clear

00:52:43.060 and it is crystal clear and let's deal with that no that's super helpful just saying you don't have

00:52:48.320 to be a master on the trinity to um to be obedient in your marriage yes the trinity matters but uh

00:52:54.340 but yeah that's i i didn't even i mean that's super simple but i never thought of it that way

00:52:58.380 in the sense that like the the subliminal statement that's being made is um you you have to you have

00:53:03.700 to master one of the most difficult doctrines, you know, that we have, doctrine of God, theology

00:53:08.360 proper in order to have a position on the nature of men and women. When it's like, well, the secret

00:53:16.080 things belong to God. Let's do, you know, Trinitarian work, but some of these things are

00:53:20.740 secret things, but the things he's revealed to us belong to us and our children forever. And yeah,

00:53:26.460 that's really good. Any thoughts from Dan, Brian on complementarianism or two kingdom or any of

00:53:32.940 these things? I do think the urge in the complementarian world to eliminate the

00:53:41.820 language of hierarchy is just another example of that egalitarian spirit that runs through

00:53:49.200 everything. We're an atomistic, individualistic society where we really want to make every man

00:53:56.360 his own Pope, every man his own God. And what that means is that nobody can be an authority

00:54:01.880 external to me so then you're stealing from the woman what makes her a person if you put her under

00:54:10.040 any kind of hierarchical authority in this if if you buy that presupposition where scripture says

00:54:15.880 no everybody is in hierarchical relationships with superiors and inferiors and that doesn't

00:54:21.780 that language itself we would object to but historically that's just normal language of

00:54:26.800 if you're in a military unit you have a superior it we're not talking about your ontology we're

00:54:34.440 not talking about your you know that you're less of an image bearer of god we're saying you're in

00:54:40.160 authority and that authority is real and therefore it's a hierarchy like this just terror at the

00:54:46.020 language of hierarchy is completely the result of rationalistic individualistic modernism not

00:54:54.800 biblical covenantal thinking so another grounds that i would just say interrogate your presuppositions

00:55:01.600 modern man and understand that your framework is already from the beginning flawed in the

00:55:08.900 foundations so your instincts as you build doctrines on top of it are going to be flawed

00:55:13.700 you need to go back to a covenantal hierarchical type of thinking yeah i think the other thing

00:55:20.800 there brian it's a fantastic point but the other thing is when you create a theology because you

00:55:27.720 want to soften the word of god or appease the culture even if it's just an instinct like well

00:55:33.380 how do we make this this thing that's been around forever hierarchy and marriage we how do we make

00:55:37.400 that more palatable i think whenever you start there you've already lost it may take 20 years

00:55:42.780 to get to the full fruit of it but you already lost the game yep yep yeah what i would say so

00:55:48.900 you're right it's this um this obsession with uh egalitarianism and when egal i would say it like

00:55:53.900 this when egalitarianism is the goal uh androgyny is the the result um because the only way that

00:56:00.360 you can really say that we're equal is um is it's not enough to say we're equal it has to be sameness

00:56:06.400 we have to be the same right so that's like for women to actually be equal with men well men can't 1.00

00:56:10.540 get pregnant you know so i mean that's a part of egalitarianism feminism was you know women allegedly 1.00

00:56:16.360 right right right birthing persons yeah exactly but but that's when you think like where does 1.00

00:56:23.120 this come from it comes from feminism and it comes from you know feminism wanting to be equal 1.00

00:56:27.660 um but realizing we will never be equal unless we're the same but the reality is like god created

00:56:32.840 the world uh with divisions and distinctions and he did so um on purpose so we live in a world that

00:56:38.680 is designed um with a hierarchical structure and and so it's it's this um the desire for for

00:56:45.700 egalitarianism uh leads to the fruit of androgyny and and what it what it's opposing is hierarchy

00:56:52.440 you're absolutely right and the the opposition of hierarchy really is an opposition of authority so

00:56:57.580 it's a hatred of authority a desire for anarchy um and and that can be applied to a million

00:57:02.520 different things so we're just applying it right now to the the sexual ethic but that can be applied

00:57:06.460 to economics right so so what do you see happening you see um a hatred of patriarchy oh but you also

00:57:11.240 to see a hatred of capitalism right you want socialism which is you know and that so so the

00:57:15.560 goal of egalitarianism produces the fruit of androgyny well the goal of socialism produces

00:57:19.240 the fruit of communism you know so like um you know and so in all these different levels and

00:57:23.500 and and then you see that like in the church i would argue that this hatred of hierarchy and

00:57:27.440 these kinds of things um i think that's even been applied to sin right all sin is equal

00:57:31.380 nope oh right no it's not no it's not right all sin is equal in the sense that that all sin even

00:57:37.700 the smallest sin, whatever a small sin would be, is fully capable of separating you from God and

00:57:43.260 placing you under his eternal wrath forever. So all sin is equal in that sense. But Jesus

00:57:47.900 pronounces woes on certain cities saying it will be worse for you than it was for Sodom and Gomorrah.

00:57:56.840 Woe to you, this Israelite city, you know, and this is, and why? Well, I would say there's two 0.67

00:58:02.000 things. One, so Jesus says, so talk about hierarchy. There's a hierarchy on earth and the

00:58:06.880 world that god made but there's also a hierarchy in hell according to jesus and i would argue

00:58:10.820 along with jonathan edwards and guys for a hierarchy in heaven i think it'll be unlike

00:58:15.240 any earthly hierarchy that we're well aware of um but but i do think that in heaven there are

00:58:19.940 seats of honor right like when when uh the sons of zebedee you know who granted to us lord that

00:58:24.640 to sit at your right jesus doesn't say well that's not a thing that's not his response he's like can

00:58:29.600 you can you drink the cup that so he's like that is a thing is what he's implying that is a thing

00:58:34.920 but I don't know if you'll make the cut because I don't know if you're good

00:58:38.440 enough. Right. And which, which is a profound thing. So, so with, with how,

00:58:43.100 you know, Jesus even says, but you know,

00:58:44.900 to one will be given a light beating to the other will be given a severe

00:58:48.360 beating. And that's based on, in my exegesis, it's based on two things.

00:58:52.560 Him pronouncing greater woes on, on the Israelite cities is in one sense,

00:58:57.900 because they were given greater revelation.

00:58:59.860 I think he says that explicitly, right?

00:59:01.520 If the signs, if the miracles performed by me in these towns were performed in Sodom and Gomorrah, they would have repented a long time ago.

00:59:09.660 So one thing that makes their sin worse is their sin in the midst of a higher degree of God's grace.

00:59:15.120 If there's more grace in revelation from God and sin persists versus another scenario where there's less grace and sin persists, well, the sin that persists in the greater context of grace is a greater sin.

00:59:29.180 And then I think you can talk about, so one is degrees of revelation, and then the others is just degrees of sin.

00:59:35.540 There are some, and we know this from just the law of God, and there being varying penalties, varying penalties on earth for different sins.

00:59:43.840 Eye, eye, like God has proportional justice, right? Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, life for a life.

00:59:50.080 So, you know, so my point is different degrees of sin, also different degrees of grace, particularly in the form of revelation, creates a hierarchy of sin.

00:59:58.040 All sin, again, capable apart from saving salvation by grace alone, through faith alone,

01:00:04.200 and Christ alone.

01:00:04.800 Apart from that, all sin is equal in the sense that it'll get you to hell.

01:00:08.980 But even in hell, it seems as though there are worse torments in hell than others, according

01:00:16.260 to Jesus.

01:00:17.820 So there's a hierarchy of sin, hierarchy of hell, hierarchy of heaven, heavenly rewards,

01:00:21.800 right?

01:00:21.980 That's another thing that you notice in the last 30 years, guys, pushing back on, like

01:00:25.100 there are no heavenly rewards, you know, because we got to all be the same. We all got to be equal.

01:00:30.320 And I just, I would disagree with that. Like we're not saved by our works. We are saved by

01:00:35.940 works, but the works of Christ. But it does seem as though our works do receive varying degrees of

01:00:42.740 reward. So it's faith alone that gets us eternity with God. But it seems like they're based off of

01:00:50.900 the fruit in our lives that there will be varying degrees of reward in, in heaven. And so anyway,

01:00:57.220 but we're just anti-hierarchy. And I think it's because we're anti-authority. And, and so it can

01:01:02.380 be applied to the sexual ethic. It can be applied to heaven, your view of heaven, your view of hell,

01:01:06.300 your view of sin, your view of economics, like at every single level, part of why we're falling

01:01:11.080 apart is because we're so committed to have egalitarianism across the board, which, which

01:01:16.080 seeks to do androgyny across the board, which always works against God's design because God's

01:01:20.480 design contains distinctions. Yeah, that's right, Joel. And I think when you look at creation,

01:01:26.980 creation, what is God doing? He's creating order by division. And then that division is crowned

01:01:33.540 with the hierarchy of man. And then that's the crowning glory where God says, that is the

01:01:38.660 hierarchical glory. And then I think you look at androgyny, as you're saying, it's bringing about 0.98

01:01:44.520 through uncreation this great act of uncreation tearing down the divisions and now we're bringing 0.98

01:01:51.100 chaos back into the world so i think that's actually you know you might put this as one of

01:01:56.880 the top ones on the list just that this is where the two kingdoms are colliding yeah um you know

01:02:01.920 one saying division is good and beautiful and glorious this is the way god made the world

01:02:05.860 versus you know what's our culture trying to do tear down every division and what you get is this

01:02:12.580 chaotic hellhole this hellscape right because all all it can ever do is bring it down to the lowest

01:02:17.760 common denominator like socialism can succeed in making everybody have the same amount of wealth

01:02:22.160 yep um by making everybody dirt poor but that's that's all it can do it's the because against all

01:02:29.900 of that god made a world where there is um you know tom brady and you and god made a world where

01:02:37.480 there is. What are you trying to say?

01:02:39.600 When you said you, are you talking

01:02:41.440 about me? When I say you, I mean

01:02:43.260 I'm talking to a Chinese man named you

01:02:45.360 over here. Oh, gotcha, gotcha. Particularly not 1.00

01:02:46.840 you guys. Yeah, I know you.

01:02:49.620 He's a great guy. No, God

01:02:51.380 made a world where he gives... No Tom Brady.

01:02:53.100 No Tom Brady. Tom and I are close.

01:02:55.720 He made a world where

01:02:57.160 he gives one talent and five talents and ten talents.

01:02:59.600 He made a world where he made

01:03:01.620 some people with 180

01:03:03.240 IQ and some people with

01:03:05.200 75 IQ and he

01:03:07.400 calls them all to faithfulness with the measure of faith and gifting he's given them. Egalitarianism

01:03:13.060 hates that because it rejects the authority of God in giving his gifts. It wants a world that's

01:03:17.860 fair, meaning equal. And the thing is, God did not make a fair world. Jesus even said that to those

01:03:25.100 who have little, even what little they have will be taken and given to the one who has much. And

01:03:29.580 he's talking specifically about this issue that we're describing. I would say Arminianism has a

01:03:36.120 very similar error where it wants to say that God can't make from one lump vessels for honorable

01:03:41.840 use and dishonorable use, but that everyone has to have equal opportunity to respond, that

01:03:47.700 prevenient grace must go out and make everybody equally able to respond and have the same

01:03:53.480 opportunity. And it's like, no, God judges, as you demonstrated, God judges individuals differently

01:04:00.260 based on the light of revelation that they had i think that's beyond dispute in scripture which

01:04:06.480 that right there assumes that there god doesn't reveal himself equally to everyone exactly that

01:04:11.240 doesn't sound fair you can't say that my son had the exact same opportunity to bend the knee to

01:04:18.460 christ as lord as the son of some muslim kid right in you know some muslim guy in saudi arabia they 0.51

01:04:25.400 didn't yeah and christians that try to argue and like come up with elaborate gymnastics to make it 0.91

01:04:31.760 seem as if that's the case through natural revelation or whatnot we're all responsible

01:04:35.680 because of that absolutely but it's just not the world god made god made a world that wherein one

01:04:42.320 of the glories would be this massive differentiation and and it's like it is it is far more glorious

01:04:50.160 that Tom Brady exists, this sounds really gay now that I say it. But it is. It's far more 0.86

01:04:58.000 good. Should I call you mister? Why are you gay? No, it's true though. I mean, the fact that there

01:05:05.440 are people that can sit down and can intuitively understand engineering and design and build

01:05:13.800 things like, you know, guys working on quantum computing right now. I don't even understand the

01:05:19.660 terms that you need to understand to get even the concept. And there are people that God made and

01:05:26.640 he gave them minds that they do what is the glory of Kings, which is to search out the mysteries

01:05:32.140 that God has hidden in the world. And so it's like egalitarianism just wants to make this

01:05:37.260 big gray homogenous lump out of everything. And the prop one argument against it isn't just

01:05:43.680 theological it's just well that's boring it's the argument from boringness and and god didn't make

01:05:50.200 a boring world god made it because god himself is interesting god made an interesting world yeah

01:05:55.260 and he the the creator maintains the rights like the master of the house the owner he maintains

01:06:01.040 the rights um to to be generous with what he has and to give to one and i always you know that the

01:06:07.300 parable like you said that you know the one one talent two talents five you know and the two talent

01:06:11.480 guy doubles to four and the five doubles to 10. And, you know, but the one, he buries it, you

01:06:16.700 know, in the sand, he hides it. And, you know, I always thought, I think a lot of Christians think

01:06:21.480 that that's, you know, an expression of what's coming across as he's fearful. He was driven by 0.86

01:06:27.380 fear and that's why he buried it. Whereas I would say that he was driven by hatred of the master

01:06:31.760 because he didn't think the master was fair. So, because ultimately, so when he says the master

01:06:36.540 returns and he's like, you know, what have you done? What fruit have you produced? And he says,

01:06:41.480 why I hid, uh, the talent that you gave me because, um, and, and what he's, what he's

01:06:46.780 ultimately saying, what he's implying is because you gave me so little, uh, you gave me such a

01:06:51.340 small investment that if I was to try to, you know, invest this in the markets and do this

01:06:56.280 and that, it was so little that, um, I probably would have lost it. Right. That's, that's what

01:07:00.180 he's saying. And, um, and, but beyond that, he says, I knew you to be a hard master reaping

01:07:05.620 where you did not sow, right? And, and, and the master, you know, responds by saying, if you knew

01:07:11.760 me to be like that, this is what you would have done. You would have at least, right? So you're

01:07:17.520 saying it's not, it's not hatred. It's just fear. And it's really my fault because I gave you too

01:07:21.660 little. And I'm also not, not only was I stingy and gave you too little, but I'm also unjust. I

01:07:27.040 try to reap where I don't sow. And, and so what the way he's responding is he's saying, okay,

01:07:32.320 I'll accept your premise. And I'm going to prove that you're a liar. If your premise was true, 0.99

01:07:41.120 this is how somebody who actually believes that would have behaved. You would have at least

01:07:46.380 invested with the bankers so that I might receive interest. So you buried my talent,

01:07:51.980 not because you were afraid, because I gave you too little. You buried my talent because you

01:07:56.180 didn't want me to get a single dime of return because you hate me. And you hate me because

01:08:01.780 your two peers over here, I gave them more and I, and you didn't like that. You know? And so I think

01:08:07.920 that that's what, cause it's like, you knew me to be, you know, we, we look at the master's

01:08:11.980 response. Well, if you knew me to be a man like this, then this is what, and we look at it almost

01:08:15.400 like if we don't read carefully, we look at it as like, like Jesus is actually affirming his view

01:08:20.680 of the master. And that's not what's happening because his view is you reap where you do not

01:08:25.360 sow. And we know that God doesn't affirm that view because where has God not sown? God never

01:08:30.620 reaps where he doesn't sow god sowed everything he created everything that exists is his doing

01:08:35.600 you know and so so he he has rights he has king rights to reap from anywhere and anyone at any

01:08:44.440 time because it's all his doing it all came from him every good and perfect gift comes from him

01:08:50.300 he created ex nihilo so even when all we ever do is we cultivate we steward you know we and we

01:08:55.240 multiply resources. And in that sense, we are creators in the lowercase C kind of, but God's

01:09:00.780 the one who, who provides all the materials. God's the one who created the cosmos and the,

01:09:05.500 and the world that we live in. And so in that sense, he is the original investor. He's the,

01:09:11.120 you know, he has rights to reap from, from everyone. And, and so anyway, so I, you know,

01:09:17.580 even with that, and the last thing I'll say on that, a talent, you know, part of it is we don't

01:09:21.700 understand the culture and how much a talent was. It doesn't say if it was a talent of silver,

01:09:24.980 or bronze or gold but um but if it was a talent of gold it would be in our dollars i think the

01:09:30.220 equivalent of of about two uh two plus billion dollars um is you know if it was a talent of

01:09:36.000 gold and even if it was even if it was silver it still would be it would be you know like 50

01:09:40.840 million dollars um and so you know the the point is like he gave him it it was it was massive it

01:09:46.900 was a lot of resources and so that that reading of the text saying oh he was just he was given so

01:09:52.940 little, you know, and he was fearful. He didn't want to make a bad, like, it's just not, not an

01:09:57.340 accurate reading of the text. So, all right. Um, any, any other thoughts you guys got? If not,

01:10:02.320 um, can, can somebody, I think the last one that I'd really like to do is can one of you guys

01:10:06.180 just, uh, describe, define dispensationalism? Uh, I hate to interrupt. I've got to jump off

01:10:12.740 for the next meeting. That's fine. You guys are more than good. We'll take it. We'll take it.

01:10:17.640 Yeah. Thank you much. Thanks. See Eric. Yep. Yeah. But Brian or Dan, you want to just

01:10:22.460 knock out dispensationalism. We'll talk about that and then call it a day.

01:10:26.380 You know, I think I'll let Brian define dispensationalism. I mean, he taught a college

01:10:30.600 class on dispensationalism. So I think he's the preeminent expert on this subject.

01:10:36.800 That was when I was a dispensationalist as well. When I, you know, obviously like many of us,

01:10:42.620 I grew up in a dispensationalist assumed environment. You know, I read all the Walvoord

01:10:49.180 commentaries on Daniel and Revelation and, you know, the whole nine yards. So, dispensationalism,

01:10:55.740 some of the core tenets, or I guess the first thing to understand about dispensationalism

01:11:01.020 is it's a whole Bible theology. It's a way of attempting to understand how the whole story of

01:11:07.780 the scriptures fits together. How do Israel, the promises, the land relate to Christ, relate to

01:11:14.020 the church it's like covenant theology or new covenant theology or you know some of these other

01:11:19.700 systems it's trying to establish this meta narrative or this great grand uh coherent

01:11:25.660 understanding of all of scripture and so it basically uh answers that question first it's

01:11:31.480 very recent uh it's you know finds its roots in the 19th century so very very recent uh but it

01:11:37.300 it essentially tries to answer that question by dividing god's story that he's telling into

01:11:42.660 different dispensations. And there's no real agreement on how many or what the delineations

01:11:49.240 are. But the way that I heard, like, for example, David Guzik of Calvary Chapel describe it is that

01:11:55.960 each of these dispensations was essentially God governing his household in a certain way.

01:12:03.320 And that those, you know, each dispensation was governed differently. So you have the age of

01:12:07.540 innocence, you know, you have different ages that go through. And then what that gives you is a

01:12:13.760 story of a lot of discontinuity. So dispensationalism is marked by discontinuity, where God

01:12:19.300 changes how he's governing his household at different steps. He has different rules for

01:12:23.420 different people. Israel are his, you know, his special people that he's made special promises to

01:12:29.700 that he's given them the land. A lot of dispensational premillennialism is founded on

01:12:34.900 the idea that those promises were not fulfilled in the Old Testament period. The land promises

01:12:41.260 even weren't fulfilled. And so those are waiting for a future fulfillment because when Christ came,

01:12:47.800 the idea is that Israel rejected their king. And so what God did is he hit pause on the

01:12:54.200 fulfillment of all of his promises. And he turned aside for a time to a different people and a

01:13:00.440 different plan. And that's the Gentiles and the church. So the church are different people 0.98

01:13:04.540 from Israel. They have different promises. They have a whole lot of different managing of the 0.99

01:13:10.820 household. And that's the age we live in. But that at the end, God is going to restart his plan

01:13:19.580 for Israel. He's going to return to his plan for Israel. There'll be a great tribulation, 0.79

01:13:24.100 rapture of the church, remove the church from the world before that so that he can turn back to 1.00

01:13:28.900 Israel. He'll save a lot of Israel through this tribulation period. Then Christ will return 0.95

01:13:33.720 physically to the earth and he will establish the Davidic kingdom again. And he will physically rule 0.98

01:13:40.180 from Israel from Mount Zion for a thousand, literally a thousand years. And that's when 0.96

01:13:44.940 he will fulfill all of these great old Testament promises before there's a final rebellion and an

01:13:50.740 end period in which Christ will make a final end of evil, cast Satan into hell. He'd been bound

01:13:57.360 during this thousand year period. And he'll return. He'll then, you know, usher in the new

01:14:02.380 heavens and the new earth, the eternal state and the great white throne judgment. The dead will be

01:14:07.600 raised. That's when death will die. So, you know, a lot of the differences between that reading of 0.97

01:14:14.340 scripture and, for example, a covenant theological reading of scripture, whether baptistic or

01:14:20.020 pedo-baptistic would really come down to that difference of continuity discontinuity and uh

01:14:27.180 you know so a lot of the differences that you'll find when you're talking to dispensationalists

01:14:31.200 will be things like you know do you believe that the promises to israel are given to the church

01:14:38.620 in some meaningful way the promises and patterns of blessing and cursing and a lot of these things

01:14:42.880 dispensationalist has to say no uh those aren't for you in the same way those are for israel

01:14:48.680 because they're expecting at any time for this cataclysmic great tribulation to happen.

01:14:56.460 They don't really believe that the church age is the age where we're going to see

01:15:01.300 the fulfillment of these promises in any sense.

01:15:04.480 Christ reigning from sea to sea, the rivers to the end of the earth.

01:15:07.260 They don't see that as being about this time in history.

01:15:10.480 So if you go to a dispensationalist and you say,

01:15:12.860 Christ is reigning as king over all of the earth, they'll say, not yet.

01:15:17.060 You know, not yet. He will. And he's reigning in heaven right now. And they might even say something similar to the amillennial. He has spiritual authority, but he's not aiming to fulfill those promises right now. That's happening in the future. So that discontinuity does introduce quite a few problems.

01:15:34.120 I'm trying to be charitable to the dispensationalists and not just dunk on them, but it does lead to a lot of issues with legacy, with, you know, building, expecting long future still to happen.

01:15:45.540 There's a lot of expectation of the rapture of the church at any moment.

01:15:49.460 So you have a lot of newspaper exegesis associated over the last 50 years with dispensationalism.

01:15:55.060 There's a handbasket of problems that really come back to that discontinuity idea, I think.

01:16:00.040 Yep, that was super helpful.

01:16:01.360 Thank you.

01:16:01.600 I completely agree.

01:16:02.280 um it seems like the like the pre you know a dispensational pre-millennial would say like

01:16:07.500 uh so so we would say already not yet we would we would agree with that um something is happening

01:16:13.200 the leaven is actually in the dough it's doing something it's you know um the the mustard seed

01:16:17.720 is planted and it's growing um something is happening and so the mountain is growing you

01:16:22.380 know all the all these different things and and we would look at you know part of what i would

01:16:26.260 reject uh kenneth gentry talks about this but you know with the dispensational pre-millennial you

01:16:30.240 secret rapture, right? There's nothing that talks about a secret rapture, but the secret

01:16:35.080 rapture that the world, the whole world somehow misses, but all the Christians see it. It's 1.00

01:16:40.560 cataclysmic. I think he uses the word, it's catastrophic and sudden, sudden and catastrophic

01:16:46.560 rather than what we see as kind of a common theme and pattern throughout scripture is

01:16:52.020 gradualistic. So when you think of even creation, right? I would hold to six literal

01:16:59.980 days, you know, cause I'm not a heretic, but you know, so I would hold to, you know, young earth

01:17:04.260 and six literal days, but still like God could have done it all at once, but he does it, he does

01:17:09.640 it gradually over six days. So creation, sanctification, right? God is, it's a process,

01:17:14.600 right? And so like it's, it's gradual revelation. I mean, we have, we have this, you know, this

01:17:20.360 progression of revealing the Messiah, Adam and Eve knew him as the snake crusher, you know,

01:17:25.100 Abraham knows him as the seed, you know, and just further and further, you know, David knows him as 0.55

01:17:29.420 a king you know of the increase of his government there'll be no end so now we see that you know the

01:17:32.860 and then you know but then we know him with greater clarity and god has only saved a people

01:17:37.900 for himself in one way old testament saints and new testament saints the new covenant being

01:17:41.380 you know well we might disagree there but you know whether it be one covenant of grace one

01:17:45.480 substance with two administrations you know or whether it be the new covenant you know being

01:17:48.780 the only saving covenant covenant synonymous with the covenant of grace is where i would be at

01:17:52.280 retroactively applied but the point is that god has only ever saved people one way but there is

01:17:56.940 the distinction since that we have greater revelation us on this side of the cross we know

01:18:01.760 christ to a much uh fuller degree than than david um knew new christ um but but we were both saved

01:18:08.760 by faith in the same person in christ and so all that is gradual right but the the pre-mill

01:18:14.580 dispensation it's it's sudden and catastrophic you know whereas post-millennialism it's it's

01:18:20.400 it's keeping in the pattern of what what god did in the old testament what god did in creation what

01:18:25.160 god does individually in sanctification it's keeping with this this gradualistic um it's it's

01:18:31.500 small it starts small it grows slowly but it becomes significant it's dominant yeah yeah you

01:18:37.240 can see this in in daniel with uh nebuchadnezzar's statue representing kingdoms that will be destroyed

01:18:43.160 by a small stone that then grows into a mountain that swallows a whole earth yeah he's those

01:18:48.520 kingdom parables you know yeast is not exactly like a speedster you know and a mustard seed that

01:18:55.000 as a small seed and it grows to be the biggest tree where birds nest in it and it overshadows

01:18:59.640 everything so that's even a theme throughout these pictures that god gives us of the dominion of

01:19:04.840 christ over the whole world so i would i would agree with that yeah and and i think some of the

01:19:10.200 the because a dispensationalist they hear us talking about this and they say but there is

01:19:15.080 cataclysmic immediate huge judgment language and and we would say look the error that's being made

01:19:20.680 that was fundamentally made in darby's writings and you know expanded in the 19th and 20th century

01:19:26.540 with some of these ideas of the the future seven-year great tribulation that daniel's 70 70th

01:19:32.740 week is you know we're still waiting for it a lot of these ideas really it comes from a failure to

01:19:38.940 read the text literally right which is funny when you think about it because that's funny that's

01:19:44.880 the essence of the dispensationalist hermeneutic is a literalistic uh historical grammatical

01:19:50.980 approach is what they're saying but the problem is take the olivet discourse or take the book of

01:19:57.300 revelation both of those sections that deal with this great tribulation coming language

01:20:03.000 are emphatically clear that it is coming upon this generation of israel that is living at the

01:20:09.200 time that those works were given. I mean, emphatically clear. It is the most clearly

01:20:14.560 literal part of all of those passages. You will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds and

01:20:23.680 clouds being judgment. And when you see Daniel and you understand that the Son of Man being

01:20:28.340 presented to the Ancient of Days in the heavens as a sign of his judgment, coming judgment upon 0.55

01:20:33.540 Israel. When you see that the book of Revelation was not sealed up because these things were soon

01:20:41.420 to take place, and yet the prophecies of Daniel and Daniel 12 were sealed up because they weren't

01:20:47.080 going to happen for 700 years. Well, why would Daniel be sealed up because the time wasn't near

01:20:51.980 in 700 years and then Revelation not sealed up because they're near if we've already had 2,000

01:20:58.100 years of church history after that? Well, it's because they were near. God was going to judge

01:21:04.040 apostate Israel for her covenant breaking, which happened in 70 AD, just as Christ said it would, 0.50

01:21:11.260 that not one stone would be left standing on the temple, that the end would come with a flood. 0.65

01:21:16.300 In Daniel, that essentially God would come and he would judge his house. He would knock it down

01:21:22.540 because he was building a house no longer of stone. He was building a house of living stones

01:21:27.460 And no longer would he call the nations to worship at this physical temple.

01:21:31.320 He would send his temple to the nations, the living stones, and he would build a temple that swallows the world out of those living stones.

01:21:39.340 So, I mean, you just have a lot of a failure to read the Bible biblically, to read it apostolically, to read it in its types and shadows and its language and its prophetic imagery.

01:21:51.660 You have a failure to take literally what ought to be taken literally in those passages.

01:21:56.140 And the errors compound on top of that.

01:22:00.820 So, you know, dispensationalism, I love dispensationalist brothers.

01:22:04.720 Again, pre-millennialists, we've found to be great partners in a lot of work.

01:22:09.860 And not all pre-mill are dispensationalists.

01:22:12.260 But it is an error.

01:22:13.760 And it's an error with compounding implications.

01:22:17.200 Agreed.

01:22:17.480 Yeah, it's a serious error.

01:22:18.560 But same with me. 0.82

01:22:19.680 I found my pre-mill brothers are more willing to fight together and link arms than the all-mill. 0.75

01:22:26.440 So I would say like this, you know, the already not yet that you were mentioning,

01:22:29.300 I would say the pre-mill, especially the dispensational pre-mill,

01:22:33.180 is they would be not yet, but not yet.

01:22:36.280 No, really, not yet.

01:22:37.860 So they're like, not yet, not yet.

01:22:39.880 We're already not yet.

01:22:41.500 And then the all-mill, and especially the two kingdom,

01:22:44.660 radical two kingdom all-mill guys would be already, but not really.

01:22:48.280 so so it's like so you have not yet not yet um already and not really um you know and then we

01:22:54.540 are already and not yet and and that that was eye-opening for me and i want my listeners to

01:22:58.960 hear that that post-millennialism ironically i think the covenantal rather than dispensational

01:23:04.640 post-millennial rather than pre-millennial that position is and this is kind of out of character

01:23:09.260 for me because i usually take you know the the quote-unquote extreme position also known as you

01:23:15.320 know the biblically faithful position but in the case of post-millennialism it's funny that um i

01:23:20.420 would say it's it's the middle position it's we think like pre-mill all-mill post-mill but i think

01:23:25.660 more accurately it's pre-mill all-mill post-mill post-mill is actually i think the moderate

01:23:30.560 position what i mean by that is um post-mill a pre-mill and all-mill have nothing in common

01:23:35.680 so the pre-mill and the all-mill disagree about the nature of christ's reign yeah right one says

01:23:41.080 it's it's ethereal on they'll just ethereal it's just you know magical mystical you know whatever

01:23:45.300 um you know it's all the pietism kind of stuff and then the premio is like no no no this is a

01:23:49.700 kingdom it's real it's gonna happen jesus is actually king right so they they disagree over

01:23:53.700 the nature of the kingdom um and they disagree over the timing right so the the um the omel is

01:23:59.460 like uh it's happening right now and it's uh and don't you worry it is absolutely impotent

01:24:03.860 um and then you know and then do absolutely nothing yeah it does absolutely nothing it is

01:24:09.320 in full force right now doing nothing. So it's already, but not really. And then the pre-mill

01:24:15.580 is, it is serious, but we're in this parenthetical moment of dispensationalism with the church age,

01:24:23.060 and so it's completely on pause. But as soon as God hits play, and it'll probably be before we

01:24:28.520 finish this episode, it could be any second, boom, it's going to be serious. And stuff will happen.

01:24:33.960 Exactly. So they disagree on the nature of the kingdom and the timing of the kingdom,

01:24:37.040 nature and timing post mill is the moderate middle position we agree with the pre-mill

01:24:41.140 in terms of the nature of the kingdom we're like yeah it's real it's physical yeah it's it has

01:24:45.140 practical implications it's jesus actually king it's not just a spiritual kingship it's it's real

01:24:49.820 and we agree with the all mill on the timing of the kingdom um post if you want to be a moderate

01:24:55.640 be a postman yeah if you want a reasonable position yeah middle of the road not

01:25:01.100 join us in our post-millennial moderatism the post-mill folks are really known for being like

01:25:08.240 a moderate gentile absolutely winsome nuanced i think we're winsome they've won me yeah i think

01:25:15.220 it's the most attractive position it should be called win win none instead of win none you know

01:25:20.800 we want to win all so all right anyway so yeah so i i think that that's you know so the covenants

01:25:26.360 and, you know, versus dispensationalism and post-millennialism versus all-mill and pre-mill.

01:25:32.620 It matters in the sense of the pietism thing that we were talking about earlier.

01:25:36.780 But what I found, it sounds like you guys have found the same, that the pre-mill guys, 0.94

01:25:40.180 even though they're like, okay, we're waiting on God to push play again. 0.98

01:25:44.460 What I've noticed is even though they're like, we're not in the kingdom,

01:25:49.060 maybe it's because of that grammatical, historical, literal hermeneutic.

01:25:52.240 They just, they take the Bible seriously.

01:25:53.840 So they're like, yeah, the Bible affects how I should vote.

01:25:57.480 The Bible affects, you know, how, you know, so they actually, the pre-mill guy, even though

01:26:02.320 they think that in the big picture, we're on pause in their individual lives, they actually

01:26:08.060 believe in practical obedience, practical obedience beyond just the home of the church,

01:26:12.680 but that the Bible actually speaks to other aspects of life with, with real tangible,

01:26:17.420 practical obedience.

01:26:18.720 And they just don't think that obedience will be effective.

01:26:21.000 they don't think that it'll be successful but they still do think that we should obey and christ

01:26:26.140 calls us to to do things um and then the all mill is like we're in the kingdom um but the all mill

01:26:33.100 is i think the bigger problem not all of them i know there's there's a spectrum of differences

01:26:36.660 in pre-mill all mill postman but um but you know i i was in san diego for a long time and so i'm

01:26:41.480 right next to escondido you know westminster and stuff and and that that all millennial two kingdom

01:26:46.360 the radical two kingdom kind of mindset is, is just,

01:26:50.100 I think that's the one that's more dangerous. 0.84

01:26:52.000 That's the one that lends more towards pietism than like John MacArthur.

01:26:55.320 John MacArthur will do something. Now, I mean, I, you know,

01:26:58.440 he'll especially do something when it affects him personally. Right.

01:27:01.140 So like 52 years on record that America shouldn't exist because it wasn't

01:27:04.760 submitting to the civil magistrates in England. You know,

01:27:07.800 but then as soon as his church got closed down, boom, he became a theonomist. 0.78

01:27:11.520 So, um, so if I had the gif of the black kids running across the camera, like that's what 0.73

01:27:20.740 I'd play.

01:27:21.220 But my, but my point is like John MacArthur, you know, um, if it, when it came, when it

01:27:26.280 came to his front doorstep, this, this insane tyranny, um, John MacArthur fought and, and

01:27:33.020 to be fair, and he's fought other things for 50 years to be fair because of that little

01:27:37.560 and, and in his defense, just like I said, you know, tried to say, I think this is the

01:27:41.140 intention behind doug wilson's federal vision well here's the the intention i think behind

01:27:45.280 john mccarthur's leaky dispensational premillennialism uh give him the benefit of the

01:27:50.000 doubt i think his intention is 50 years of watching liberal theology ravage the church

01:27:54.800 with sexual ethic and and gay mirage and all these kind of things and he's like

01:27:58.800 no analytical typological hermeneutic whatsoever we just can't open the door and that i you know

01:28:06.140 so to give him the benefit of the doubt i think that's where his heart is is just give me the

01:28:09.840 the Bible and so but that guy who's just give me the Bible and let's practically obey and do what

01:28:14.100 it says I got way more in common with him than the other guy who has the analogical typological

01:28:18.920 Christological piece in their hermeneutic and can read certain portions of Isaiah actually speaking

01:28:23.800 of Christ without an apostolic New Testament author explicitly saying so but doesn't want to

01:28:29.700 do anything that's so true so anyways all right any final thoughts I hear my kids are about to

01:28:36.220 come in as a, like a wrecking ball, but any final thoughts? Thanks for having us on. I learned a

01:28:42.080 lot. I learned a lot. Me too, guys. I've, I've learned a lot of what I'm doing is repeating

01:28:46.960 back to you. Um, things that I've learned by listening to, I've listened to some of the

01:28:51.220 episodes. I rarely do this, but I've listened to some of the episodes twice on the Kings Hall

01:28:55.180 podcast. Cause it just, thank you. It's fantastic. What you guys are doing is awesome. So one of

01:28:59.640 these days, I'd love to get you guys to come out here and maybe we could do a conference together

01:29:02.880 or something like that, so.

01:29:04.020 Oh man, what a weekend that would be.

01:29:06.940 That'd be fun.

01:29:07.860 All right, thank you guys so much

01:29:09.140 and I hope you guys listening, we're blessed.

01:29:11.660 Tune in next week for another episode of Theology Apply.

01:29:14.320 Thanks so much for listening, but real quick,

01:29:16.560 before you go, do us a small favor, take a moment

01:29:19.360 and leave us a five-star review if you enjoyed the show.

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The NXR Podcast - December 20, 2022

THEOLOGY APPLIED - 5 Doctrines That Stunt Sanctification w The King's Hall

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