The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - Abolishing Abortion： The Death Blow To The Culture Of Death

00:00:00.440 Applying God's Word to every aspect of life.

00:00:03.880 This is Theology Applied.

00:00:11.420 All right, welcome listeners.

00:00:13.360 This is Pastor Joel with another episode of Theology Applied.

00:00:16.780 In this podcast, we are really doing our best by God's grace

00:00:20.760 to not just take a particular doctrine or a particular text and exegete it,

00:00:25.460 but to actually take the truth of God's word

00:00:28.060 and apply it to every realm of life.

00:00:30.940 Faithful preaching is not coming before people of God

00:00:34.560 and saying, I have an idea or I have a concept

00:00:36.940 or I have a strategy,

00:00:38.860 but it's coming before the people of God

00:00:41.000 and saying, I have a text.

00:00:42.860 It's not man's word, it's God's word.

00:00:45.440 And then faithfully interpreting that text,

00:00:48.200 not the meaning that we want to impute onto the text,

00:00:52.280 but actually saying, no, this is God's word

00:00:54.340 and this is what God means by his word,

00:00:57.340 but faithful ministry, faithful preaching,

00:01:00.500 faithful conversations,

00:01:01.400 they actually go even beyond that.

00:01:03.980 There is a revelation, a text from God's word.

00:01:06.480 There is an interpretation, faithful exegesis,

00:01:09.980 but there's also application.

00:01:12.140 And that's often where the church of God,

00:01:14.940 especially in this season and our nation,

00:01:18.480 tends to get offended.

00:01:20.580 They don't always get offended when we say,

00:01:23.580 this is what God's word means, but we certainly tend to take up an offense when we say, and in

00:01:29.880 light of this, this is how you should live. This is what you should do. And so contrary to popular

00:01:35.000 belief, faithful ministry, it applies to our lives and not just to our marriages and our parenting

00:01:42.540 or to Sunday mornings as we gather as a church, but we want to see all of Christ applied through

00:01:50.180 his word to all of life, to politics, to entertainment, to the marketplace, to media,

00:01:58.660 to all these aspects of human society. Jesus has something to say about all of it, and his lordship

00:02:05.600 is reigning over all the earth, over all things, and so we want to see that come to pass

00:02:12.120 to a greater and greater degree. So that's what this podcast is all about. Today I have the

00:02:17.460 distinct pleasure and honor of introducing our guest Desi Mays. Desi Mays is a covenant member

00:02:25.420 along with her husband at Apologia Church where the lead pastor is Jeff Durbin. James White also

00:02:32.480 serves as an elder there and she is the co-host with her brother Zach Morgan for a podcast called

00:02:39.100 Provoked and she's also as a member of the church intimately involved in their ministry called

00:02:44.460 End Abortion Now, which has really chapters in local churches all over the world. And by God's

00:02:51.400 grace has been instrumental in saving the lives of now thousands of unborn children. And so I'm

00:02:59.040 very glad to have you, Desi, on the podcast. Thank you for coming on.

00:03:03.620 Oh, thank you. It's an honor to be on the podcast. And, you know, just it's so special since you were

00:03:10.500 my old pastor from san diego so i feel very honored and happy to to do this tonight yeah

00:03:17.340 praise god i was uh i got in god's providence and sovereignty i got the pleasure of being

00:03:23.000 dawn and desi's training wheels preparing them for uh jeff durbin and james white so

00:03:27.880 when they came to our church they were coming out of uh a church that was a true church not

00:03:34.060 necessarily heretical but just softer and and more seeker sensitive and um kind of the old

00:03:40.320 mantra of doctrine divides and so maybe kind of steering clear of more controversial truths and

00:03:47.040 so they came to the response and you guys i remember just your eyes just kind of lit up

00:03:52.200 every sunday you just ate ate up uh the preaching of the word and uh and now you've gone on to bigger

00:03:58.700 and better things. We love response too, still. That church will always have a special place in

00:04:06.220 our hearts. Yeah, me too. It's been a privilege being a part of this church. So that being said,

00:04:13.520 let's go ahead and dive right in. The first question, well, I guess first I'll just kind

00:04:17.240 of title our episode. So this is, I've titled it, Abolishing Abortion, Dealing the Death Blow

00:04:23.040 to the culture of death. We want to really, as Christians, we want to see abortion completely

00:04:31.360 outlawed in our nation. It's criminal. It's cruel. It's an abomination. It's murder. And so I know

00:04:40.220 that you've been very involved in this. And so I wanted to talk about how do we win as Christians?

00:04:46.680 How do we win this fight? And so before we get into it, maybe if you could just give us a little

00:04:51.080 bit of your testimony and, and how Jesus saved you personally. Okay. Sure. Yeah. Um, I grew up in

00:04:59.580 a non-Christian home. Um, I would have said that I was a Christian though, you know, we attended

00:05:04.720 church here and there. I had a very, uh, fundamental kind of understanding of what

00:05:12.420 Christianity was. Um, and I, like I said, I would have said I was a Christian, but I absolutely was

00:05:17.500 Not until my late 20s, my brother, Zach, had started a church in San Diego and asked my husband and I to attend and kind of help them set up and break down because we were, they were renting out a space.

00:05:32.740 And I always had a good relationship with my brother and my sister-in-law.

00:05:36.400 And so we agreed out of like familial obligation and because I love my brother and because I said I was a Christian.

00:05:44.440 And so I thought, hey, no big deal.

00:05:46.340 But I really had never heard the gospel, didn't understand the holiness of God.

00:05:54.520 Yeah, I wasn't a Christian.

00:05:56.500 My like my heart, my lips confess to know Christ, but my heart and my mind and my soul was so far from Christ.

00:06:03.200 So anyway, so we started going to my brother's church and going to Bible studies and hearing the gospel preached and going through the scriptures.

00:06:11.880 and through that process my husband and I were both saved I think my husband was saved first

00:06:19.100 I remember seeing a change in him first and then I remember distinctly being in church one Sunday

00:06:26.480 and my brother was preaching the gospel again and I just felt like the fear of the Lord come over me

00:06:34.680 and I knew I'm in trouble I'm a sinner I need Christ you know I need a savior and that was the

00:06:41.480 first time for me, because like, you know, the Bible says most men proclaim their own goodness.

00:06:46.480 I thought I was a pretty good person. Um, but after, after the Lord opened my eyes and gave

00:06:53.560 me a new heart and, um, mind, I was able to see the things that God wants us to see and understand

00:07:00.100 more clearly. And I mean, I, I was so not a Christian before that it's laughable to me that

00:07:05.920 I even thought I was. I mean, I was so liberal and so like pro everything God hates. Now looking

00:07:14.320 back, it's almost funny to see how blind I truly was. And so, yeah, that's kind of in a nutshell

00:07:21.740 how I became a Christian. And then shortly after the issue of abortion came up and I still was

00:07:28.800 kind of working through these kind of worldly ideologies that I had adopted over the years,

00:07:33.860 um, abortion being one of them. And I thought, you know, I know it's probably wrong and I would

00:07:39.240 never do it, but who am I to tell somebody else that they can't, what they can't do with their

00:07:44.660 body can and can't do with their body. And so I remember I was pregnant with my first born son,

00:07:50.160 Liam, and, um, my brother had pointed me to Ray Comfort's video called 180. And because he knew

00:07:57.540 I was struggling through the same, you know, I know it's wrong, but, but, you know, judge not

00:08:02.400 Right. And so I, uh, I watched the video and the Lord just broke me, just changed my life forever.

00:08:10.460 You know, he showed me the evil of abortion, um, that these are image bearers of God,

00:08:15.680 that these are our neighbors. Um, and so after that, um, I've just had an, uh, an immense burden

00:08:23.040 to try to speak up for our neighbors, these pre-born children. Um, and we also had, um,

00:08:30.220 a burden to just share the gospel with everybody we knew and everybody we came in contact with,

00:08:36.200 because that's how we were saved. The gospel was shared to us and the Lord saved my husband and I

00:08:43.160 and, um, you know, completely transformed our marriage and our lives. And we just so want

00:08:49.240 that for other people and we want them to come to know the Lord. And so I would say evangelism

00:08:56.920 and going to the abortion clinics, trying to fight for the pre-born is just two of my biggest

00:09:03.020 burdens. And I'm a mom. I've got three, three little ones at home, a nine-year-old, a three-year-old

00:09:09.680 and a two-month-old. And so, um, yeah, my, my first job is to be a mom and a wife. And after

00:09:16.840 that, um, share the gospel and try to save babies. So yeah. Praise God. That's great. It makes me

00:09:23.320 think when you're saying you know you thought you're a pretty good person and then you just

00:09:27.520 in the preaching of the gospel and the preaching of God's law we're called to preach both law and

00:09:32.860 gospel and there was just this overwhelming sense of that you were in trouble you said you know and

00:09:38.320 I always try in my preaching to remind people that in many ways I think in the church today

00:09:47.340 the love of the Lord has been lost on a generation that has not been taught the fear of the Lord

00:09:53.420 And if we don't fear God, if we don't see him as holy, see ourselves as wretches apart from his grace,

00:10:00.120 then I think a lot of times when we tell people that God is loving without the backdrop of the holiness of God,

00:10:08.160 the sinfulness of men, the reaction that many people have is kind of like a nonchalant.

00:10:15.380 It's almost like an assumption.

00:10:17.160 Like you say, God really loves you.

00:10:18.780 And they say, of course.

00:10:20.580 Why wouldn't he?

00:10:21.540 I'm lovable.

00:10:22.740 Like almost like, like they would be more shocked if you told them that God didn't love them, right?

00:10:27.280 They, you know, they, they would feel, they feel as though God is obligated to love them.

00:10:32.000 How could he not love me?

00:10:33.660 It would be immoral for God to do anything less than love me.

00:10:37.140 And so the love of God is really lost on a generation, I think today, of people that God's love doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't astound the heart in the way that it should because we have people who, who don't fear God.

00:10:51.660 And so ultimately, you know, we love him because he first loved us, 1 John 4, 19.

00:10:55.540 And so we have people who they're lacking affection for the Lord because they don't see the Lord's love for them.

00:11:00.280 And they don't really, they're not wowed by the Lord's love for them because they don't properly feel a fear of the Lord.

00:11:07.020 Because they've missed his holiness.

00:11:09.360 They've missed their sinfulness.

00:11:11.380 And it's concerning.

00:11:12.560 I always think of the old hymn, Amazing Grace, the second stanza that says,

00:11:17.360 I think we're quick to do that second half, grace my fears relieved, the grace of the gospel being preached, you know, to people who are insecure, people who are anxious, people who are worried, you know, like, it's okay, God loves you.

00:11:35.060 but the first the first half of that line is it was grace that taught my heart to fear and it

00:11:41.120 really is a gracious and loving thing of the lord to reveal to us his holiness and the fact that

00:11:47.220 apart from his grace we stand condemned and so it actually is the grace of god that first when when

00:11:53.500 the true grace of the lord comes to us our first response is grace teaches us to fear and then that

00:12:00.320 same grace of the gospel brings us to the cross where those fears are ultimately relieved but we

00:12:05.900 can't skip the second the first part and so we got a lot of people you want they want their fears

00:12:10.220 relieved those those worldly surface fears of you know identity or significance or satisfaction they

00:12:18.440 want they want these human fears relieved but first they actually need to to to to have conveyed

00:12:27.240 to them an actual deeper fear the biggest fear which is there is a god in heaven and you're damned

00:12:33.320 to hell unless you repent of your sins and cry out and call upon the lord jesus christ and that fear

00:12:40.140 sets the stage for all of our fears to be relieved in the salvation that we freely receive in christ

00:12:45.780 so yeah your testimony just reminds me of that it sounds like you you probably heard a lot of

00:12:50.500 messages about god's love and just not very many messages about his holiness that's right so

00:12:56.720 So getting more at the topic at hand, dealing with abortion, what are some of the standards?

00:13:02.580 This would be my question.

00:13:03.680 So I know that you and many members at Apologia, you go to abortion clinics, you stand outside,

00:13:10.300 you preach God's word, you plead with people who are going in that they would reconsider

00:13:16.080 that decision.

00:13:17.780 So I guess one of my questions is this, if Christians want to get involved in a ministry

00:13:22.820 like that, what are some of the standards or the qualifications that a Christian should follow

00:13:28.020 while ministering at their local abortion clinic? For instance, what are some of the things that you

00:13:33.580 guys say? Like, would you want somebody ministering with you who's not a member of a local church?

00:13:39.220 Or would you want them, is there a certain level of experience? What are some of the things that

00:13:43.920 when people say, yeah, I want to go with you and participate in this ministry, how would you prep

00:13:48.920 them? Yeah, I would first of all say, you know, it's so important that you're under the covering

00:13:54.240 of your local church and you have the blessing of your elders going out there before you go out.

00:14:00.720 That's really important because a lot of times you will see people kind of coming out as a lone

00:14:04.860 ranger and it doesn't usually go well if there's no accountability. And that our motivation to go

00:14:11.640 out before we even take one step out is that we're doing it out of love for God and love for

00:14:17.060 neighbor. And that is why we're doing it. Two children every minute are executed in our country.

00:14:24.960 And so that's like 1.6 million a year, I think, nearly 60 million since Roe. So just knowing the

00:14:34.120 gravity of that, what's happening every day, kind of gives you an urgency to go out and kind of

00:14:41.140 sets your mind at, you know, the, the daunting task ahead of what we're, we're kind of looking

00:14:47.320 at here, this beast of abortion, but the necessity for Christians to stand up and go out. But I would

00:14:53.980 say like the qualifications would be, yeah, go ask your, your, your pastors if they, if you have

00:15:01.040 their blessing. And then, you know, there's many roles out there. There's preachers, there's men

00:15:06.000 preaching. There's women out pleading. There's women out handing blessing bags, people that hold

00:15:11.640 signs, pass out tracks. So I don't think you need any formal training or anything. I know when I

00:15:17.340 first started going out, I just held a sign and white knuckled it because I was so scared and

00:15:24.940 nervous. But as I went out more and more, it was kind of like, you know, working out at a gym or

00:15:30.120 something, you know, you kind of train your muscles and I began to pass out tracks. And then

00:15:35.240 I begin to have one-on-one conversations and the Lord kind of gives you more and more courage as

00:15:41.940 you go out. And also as you see other people going out as well, it emboldens you. And then

00:15:48.100 of course, when you see actual babies saved, that is a life changer. And so, yeah, I would say the

00:15:56.760 qualification is to be a Christian. Yeah. Yeah. That's helpful. Yep. That's really helpful.

00:16:02.520 So then what would you say, so this is something that I've heard Christians say fairly often.

00:16:10.260 We have, you know, a group of individuals that will go to abortion clinics and preach on Saturdays and other times throughout the week.

00:16:19.260 I wholeheartedly believe in street preaching.

00:16:22.500 I think me and you might be talking about this on your podcast in the near future, Provoked.

00:16:27.260 But I'm a big believer in riot evangelism.

00:16:31.280 As I look at the book of Acts, I think that I don't see a lot of friendship evangelism or relational evangelism.

00:16:37.180 This idea that, you know, you have to earn a right to preach the gospel to someone.

00:16:42.840 I think that that right is already ours in Christ Jesus.

00:16:46.840 And ultimately, you know, the right is that we first we've been loved by God.

00:16:53.240 Secondly, in return, we love God.

00:16:55.180 And thirdly, because we love God, we love our neighbor, like you're saying.

00:16:59.140 And we don't need our neighbor to be convinced that we love them before we love them, right?

00:17:04.800 So like that just, it's like circular reasoning.

00:17:07.860 It doesn't even make sense that like, because relational evangelism, I think a lot of what

00:17:11.540 it purports is it says, you need to convince your neighbor that you love them by not loving

00:17:17.040 them because the most loving thing you could do is preach to them the truth of the Lord

00:17:20.460 Jesus Christ and his saving work at Calvary.

00:17:23.140 And so relational evangelism basically says you need to withhold love from your neighbor in order to convince your neighbor that you love them so that you can then begin to actually love them.

00:17:34.320 And so I would just reject the whole principle on its head.

00:17:37.780 That said, I believe in street preaching.

00:17:41.040 I believe in riot evangelism.

00:17:43.240 I believe in going in, preaching the truth, and letting the cards fall where they may.

00:17:50.180 And so sometimes that means getting kicked out of a town.

00:17:53.600 Sometimes that means getting thrown in prison, you know, whatever it might be.

00:17:56.940 But a lot of people don't, they don't like that.

00:17:59.380 They don't think it's loving.

00:18:00.800 They don't think it's kind.

00:18:02.020 So how do you respond to people like that who would say, you know, preaching outside

00:18:06.340 of an abortion clinic or holding a sign or passing out tracts or pleading with people

00:18:11.060 not to murder their children?

00:18:14.580 People who say that that's not loving, that doesn't look like Jesus.

00:18:19.380 People would reject street preaching in general.

00:18:23.220 The two things that I always hear is people say it's not loving,

00:18:25.660 or if you can convince them that it's loving,

00:18:28.880 I still hear people say it's not effective.

00:18:32.060 So what would you say to the person who says,

00:18:34.600 this isn't loving, or if it is loving,

00:18:37.480 I just don't see it being fruitful, I don't see it being effective.

00:18:40.460 What case would you make for why Christians should minister in this way?

00:18:45.400 Yeah, I mean, to say it quite bluntly,

00:18:48.040 and not to be rude, I would say, well, respectfully, you need to read your Bible.

00:18:53.720 Because all throughout scripture, we see the people of God being the salts and the light

00:18:59.540 of the culture around them. We see them bringing the gospel into conflict with the evil around

00:19:05.460 us. Like you said, bringing the light of the gospel is the most loving thing that we can do.

00:19:11.780 um real people are being murdered people that are made in the image of i would say to a christian

00:19:20.080 of your god to of our god the image of our god is being slaughtered and executed um every single

00:19:27.560 day um and so while it may seem abrasive to you we need to understand that urgency

00:19:34.320 of what is happening and if you were bringing being brought to the slaughter if you were going

00:19:39.960 to be systematic, you know, if you were being brought into a building to be killed, I sure hope

00:19:44.380 that somebody would be there to contest what was happening. Um, so yeah, it's, it's biblical what

00:19:51.760 we're doing. Of course, there are bad examples. I think sometimes people look at a bad example of

00:19:56.380 street screechers or people that go out and do it in an unloving way, an unbiblical way. Um,

00:20:02.140 But because it's done poorly doesn't mean that the act is actually wrong or biblical or unbiblical just because we have some bad examples.

00:20:13.320 We look to Christ as our perfect example and not to other people.

00:20:19.040 Yeah, so that's what I would say.

00:20:21.640 That's great.

00:20:22.540 Yeah, that's great.

00:20:23.200 I think we want to imitate all of Christ.

00:20:26.580 We want to be like Jesus.

00:20:27.940 And one thing that I just always have to wrestle with as a pastor is there are certain aspects of Jesus that I think basically the sentiment is that Christians will say, yeah, well, I want to imitate Christ in one arena, but not another.

00:20:44.660 and uh and so like i think of you know christ and his polemic um the sense that um his discourse

00:20:53.180 with the religious rulers of his day which is which is different than what what you're doing

00:20:56.900 at a at an abortion clinic um it's it's not a showdown between you and the pharisees um but

00:21:02.680 but even you know just even christ's polemic and you know his his he uses satire he would use even

00:21:09.040 sarcasm you know like you're you know you you strain a gnat but swallow a camel or you're

00:21:16.040 whitewashed tombs you look nice and bleached and clean on the outside but on the inside you smell

00:21:20.920 like rotting death and uh that's strong language and and so we look at jesus and we say well that's

00:21:26.460 jesus um but but then but then in the same breath we say well we should imitate the way that jesus

00:21:32.320 loves and it's like well yeah but like so what makes you think that you can love like jesus does

00:21:38.400 Nobody loves like Jesus does, but we try, right?

00:21:41.440 And nobody's going to have the courage that Jesus has, but we try, you know?

00:21:48.660 And so the fact that some people have, the fact that we fail to love like Jesus does,

00:21:56.840 it doesn't stop us from saying, you should love like Christ.

00:22:00.340 And the fact that we fail to preach and evangelize and be bold as Jesus is, right?

00:22:08.080 those bad examples like this the street screecher you know who's just screaming and yelling and and

00:22:14.740 and it's hateful and it's just kind of I don't know maybe he's just trying to get get a viral

00:22:19.740 YouTube video or something and it's not really loving well the fact that I mean that that would

00:22:25.660 be like looking at someone who's trying to love like Jesus and failed at loving and then we just

00:22:29.400 say for all Christians let's let's just from now on let's just not try to love anymore that's just

00:22:34.680 You know what I mean? That just, it's absurd. Yeah, I agree. I knew you would agree. Okay. So,

00:22:41.900 well, that being said, in line with abortion and kind of getting a little bit political

00:22:47.100 here, that's one of the kind of the arenas that we want to apply theology to. I think that's just,

00:22:54.080 it's become a no-no in the Christian world that, you know, just churches and pastors and pulpits

00:22:59.760 just shouldn't deal with politics. But in the same way as Christians, well, we just,

00:23:04.120 we have multiple identities our truest identity is that we are in Christ we are adopted sons

00:23:10.220 God is our beloved father and Christ is our elder brother and so our truest identity we're a new

00:23:16.440 creation in Christ Jesus but then at the same time I who am in Christ Joel Webin is in Christ but

00:23:22.560 he's also a husband a father a pastor and I'm also a citizen of the United States of America

00:23:28.500 And so I have, you know, I have responsibilities in vocation and in the home and as a citizen.

00:23:34.260 I have civil duties, all these things, and the word of God applies to all of it.

00:23:38.780 And so that said, I think that Christians have a duty to vote.

00:23:44.220 And I think that we have a responsibility to vote for life, to character matters.

00:23:50.660 But at the end of the day, I think policy matters even more.

00:23:55.760 And so in a perfect world, if we had two God-honoring candidates with God-honoring policies and then one had better character than the other, then we would vote for the one with better character because character does matter.

00:24:07.680 But sadly, we don't live in a perfect world and we do live in a two-party system where you may have bad character.

00:24:14.320 But if one policy is for life and another policy is for murder and all forms of sexual immorality, then I think as a Christian, the choice is clear.

00:24:24.100 But sadly, not every Christian thinks that way. And so recently, someone that I respect and appreciate very, very much, John Piper, he recently wrote an article called Policies, Persons, and Paths to Ruin.

00:24:40.540 And and he dealt with kind of really kind of just pitting abortion and arrogance against each other and and really kind of made a case, I think, for just not voting at all.

00:24:57.880 Or sadly, I don't think this was his intention, but I'm concerned that some Christians will look at that article and use that as an opportunity to assuage their conscience for not voting or even voting for Biden and voting for the Democratic Party and abortion.

00:25:15.800 And so I'm just curious, at a political level, you want to go to abortion clinics, you want to preach the gospel, you want to adopt children as a church, all these different things.

00:25:24.320 But at the political level, what do you think about Piper's article? Do you think that a Christian with a clear conscience could vote in this upcoming election for Biden? What do you think?

00:25:36.860 yeah um like you said i have so much respect for pastor piper i mean i've followed him for years

00:25:44.980 listened to his uh daily devotional uh been so blessed by his books and um yeah i i have so much

00:25:54.060 esteem and love for john piper but i i disagree with him on this one um we're kind of looking at

00:26:00.120 a category difference i think between arrogance and child slaughter and the destruction of the

00:26:07.240 family unit um we know so i didn't vote for donald trump in 16 i like a lot of christians

00:26:15.620 just couldn't do it um my conscience wouldn't allow me to do it um but we're going into 2020

00:26:22.700 And we know that a Democrat, Biden or whoever, is going to want to usher in more child sacrifice to fight for that, quote unquote, right.

00:26:37.160 They want to bring in the destruction of the family through LGBTQ, you know, the BLM statement.

00:26:45.780 I think that they've removed it from their mission statement now.

00:26:49.480 Yeah, but it did say they want to destroy the nuclear family, the idea of the nuclear family. And so we know that these ideologies are going to be ushered in by a liberal president, right, where we know Trump has his own sins.

00:27:06.380 And I know the sin of pride and arrogance and adultery and whatever else is very, very important.

00:27:13.020 And I'm not saying it's not egregious, but can you imagine if we were living in the times of slavery and we had two presidents that were up for the presidency or two people, two men up to be elected, one who was going to promote the ongoing slavery and brutality of Black people.

00:27:35.620 And one that was going to fight against it. But maybe this guy, he was arrogant or he just was a sinner. And who should we vote for? They're both sinners. One's going to fight to end something. The other one's not.

00:27:52.000 um and it's not only i mean i feel like um you know the destruction of the family unit and

00:27:57.900 abortion are like the two big ones we could just stop there but it's also like you said um the

00:28:04.160 social marxism you know it's just socialism like there's just so many things that i think that

00:28:10.640 if we step back and go okay how do we how do we do this god how do we glorify you in our vote i

00:28:17.380 think we're going to go towards the person and platform that is more in line with what god

00:28:24.160 wants us to do than the other and i'm sorry but the democratic platform is anti-god it's anti-christ

00:28:32.060 and so i think that we can vote with trump for trump with a clear conscience because we know

00:28:38.180 he's not promoting so i've had people say you know how can you vote for a serial adulterer

00:28:44.200 Well, his platform's not promoting serial adultery.

00:28:48.240 It's different.

00:28:49.600 Biden's platform is promoting the murder of children.

00:28:55.000 So that's it.

00:28:56.980 Yeah, that's a great point.

00:28:58.360 Like there's, yeah, I just think it's a false dichotomy.

00:29:00.860 So I love what you said right there at the end.

00:29:02.720 There's a difference in having marred character versus actually having a platform, an agenda that's pushing towards.

00:29:14.200 sin that's pushing towards immorality so so to have a flawed man pushing for righteous policies

00:29:22.720 righteous policies not a righteous man not righteous character as far as i can tell i hope

00:29:29.960 that donald trump's a christian but as far as i can tell if i had to guess i i'd say probably not

00:29:34.280 and um because one of the truest marks of a christian is repentance and he doesn't seem

00:29:39.780 like a man who's willing to admit when he's wrong, just statements that he's made. Like,

00:29:45.180 you know, I don't ask for forgiveness. My, you know, what I do instead is just don't ever do

00:29:50.300 anything wrong. And so, you know, so that's not a very Christian statement. So, so none of that is

00:29:56.040 to endorse the person, the man, but there's a difference in being a, a, a sinful man advocating

00:30:04.140 for a righteous policy versus being, in the case of Biden, being also a sinful man, but

00:30:11.840 who just looks a little more clean cut, but who's advocating for a policy of rank, immorality,

00:30:20.500 murder, perversion.

00:30:23.280 It, you know, just, you know, so I think for me that the dichotomy is false in that regard.

00:30:28.260 I think it's also false because it assumes that one party, or in this case, one individual person has a monopoly on pride.

00:30:39.480 And the idea that I think that's just that just fundamentally misunderstands the nature of pride.

00:30:47.560 And so nobody has a monopoly on pride.

00:30:51.340 We, you know, when it comes to pride, we're all socialist.

00:30:53.980 We share everybody.

00:30:56.140 Everybody gets a piece of pride.

00:30:57.560 And, uh, and so, um, so really what you're not looking at, at the, the prideful guy versus the,

00:31:06.060 you know, the LGBT abortion, it's, it's two prideful people. And there are just variations

00:31:12.340 in, in, in the way that pride is expressed. One is much more, it's just a much more blatant,

00:31:18.140 visible expression of pride. Uh, but even that, right. So they're like, I think of,

00:31:24.120 you know like hollywood might make a movie for instance where um the movie is very there's just

00:31:30.020 the whole theme and the style of the movie is very dark and it's um it's you know it's filled

00:31:35.220 with drugs i think of like breaking bad right so i didn't watch all breaking bad because it just

00:31:40.240 it was too bad you know but i watched some of the episodes and i started feeling convicted but

00:31:46.360 but the point is this at the end of a breaking bad episode uh nobody walks away thinking i i'd

00:31:53.540 really like to start making crystal meth um the right so like even though it's all about drugs

00:31:59.540 and it's all about selling drugs and and building an empire and taking over you know a whole area

00:32:06.060 and all this kind of stuff um but even in the name of the show it's breaking bad like it it

00:32:11.800 indicates it clearly conveys like this is immoral this is wrong and and the result of you know the

00:32:17.820 lead character is that his life is utterly destroyed. And so even though it contains

00:32:27.520 all these different expressions and types of immorality, it doesn't glorify them. And so I

00:32:34.380 think there's a difference in sin being present versus sin being glorified. And so to relate that

00:32:41.520 to Trump. When I look at his Twitter account, I don't think, man, arrogance looks good. I should

00:32:53.500 try it out. When I look at his Twitter account, I think, gosh, that's so embarrassing. Why did he

00:33:02.040 say that? Dear God, do I sound like that? I hope I don't sound like that. Those are kind of the

00:33:08.580 responses that i have whereas joe biden i i think theologically there's no way that we could for one

00:33:15.260 this just can't even really be measured because we're dealing with someone's heart but number two

00:33:20.020 even if we could somehow measure it i doubt that joe biden is actually more humble at the level

00:33:27.320 of the heart uh because because out of the heart not only does the mouth speak we see that with

00:33:33.300 trump that mouth is speaking um but but out of the abundance of the heart the hands and the feet

00:33:38.600 are swift to shed blood right it's a prideful heart that kills a million babies a year there's

00:33:45.940 no such thing as a humble heart that murders children that is a just that does not biblically

00:33:52.040 exist that's a false category and so in order to have those policies um it assumes from a biblical

00:34:01.140 standard it assumes pride so i think biblically we have to look at both candidates and both parties

00:34:06.300 and say both are arrogant and and one one's arrogance is is much more visible a much more

00:34:15.280 visible expression at the at the level of speech but but it but not in a glorifying way if anything

00:34:22.840 every christian i talk to comes away the way i do and saying i don't want to i don't want to

00:34:27.760 sound anything like that i'm embarrassed i i for him i and then but then the other one uh has you

00:34:35.160 know uh a a sensible demeanor and and a a warming charm and and a good smile and and it actually

00:34:45.840 looks as so for me i think with sin i'm i'm always more concerned about the sin that looks more

00:34:51.820 appealing the sin that is more subtle and and uh yeah and so i i just so anyways i look at that and

00:34:58.320 i to to say the dichotomy is arrogance versus abortion and arrogance you know has more you know

00:35:04.980 potentially more eternal ramifications than murder and first i i don't even know if that's

00:35:11.080 true and then secondly i just think it's a false dichotomy it's not arrogance versus abortion

00:35:15.120 both are arrogant nobody has a monopoly on pride we have two different expressions of pride one is

00:35:22.960 is more blatantly arrogant but also in many ways doesn't glorify arrogance but actually makes it

00:35:28.140 look bad and unappealing it actually I think works as a deterrent for Christians away from

00:35:33.700 wanting to be arrogant but then the other I think arguably is probably just as prideful at the level

00:35:39.560 the heart but actually makes arrogance look good at the level of speech and then with policy and

00:35:45.620 action it's hands and feet that are swift to shed blood uh engaging in and all kinds of of immorality

00:35:53.140 and not just a history of adultery but but by policy pro adultery pro sexual immorality pro

00:36:00.640 murder and so i just for me i just i just don't even understand how how the two can be compared

00:36:08.240 And I think my biggest concern as a Christian, as a pastor, is just my concern is that although I think the highest I feel that you could possibly think about John Piper, I don't think that he, I don't think he recognizes, I know John Piper's not malicious.

00:36:25.840 I know that his intentions aren't wrong or immoral, but I just, I think that there is just, to me, it's just another example that the church, historically, at least for the last few decades, has just seemed to be so ignorant and weak on politics and the implications.

00:36:48.240 and um and yeah and i i just i don't i i'm concerned that there would be a lot of christians

00:36:56.080 because there's so much influence with it with a man like john piper i'm concerned that there

00:36:59.920 would be a lot of christians not that necessarily will vote for biden but who who are gonna go out

00:37:05.420 and and who are going to try to vote for life not a twitter account but policy and life but who now

00:37:13.840 have been given an excuse,

00:37:16.860 have had their consciences assuaged to do nothing.

00:37:20.680 And I think that's, I don't know.

00:37:22.520 What do you think?

00:37:23.060 Do you think that's a fair assessment?

00:37:25.040 I do, I do.

00:37:26.080 I really like the way you explained all that.

00:37:28.240 And yeah, we have to fight this beast

00:37:33.060 with everything we've got.

00:37:34.140 Obviously, you and I agree that abortion

00:37:37.060 is going to be ended by the gospel being preached

00:37:40.120 and people being brought from death to life.

00:37:43.840 being able to see it for what the evil that it is.

00:37:47.860 But I also think that these people that now see that should do everything that

00:37:51.740 they've got in their power to stop it,

00:37:54.820 including voting for a platform or a person that's going to more likely help us

00:38:01.820 to do that. So.

00:38:03.480 Amen. Yeah, we go ahead. I'm sorry. Go ahead.

00:38:06.720 Oh, I just,

00:38:07.360 I was kind of talking about it with the elders and some of the deacons,

00:38:11.820 right. It's always coming in.

00:38:13.080 then one of the deacons had said something that I thought was, was insightful. And he said, you

00:38:18.440 know, cause we all love pastor Piper so much. And one of the deacons said, Hey, I, uh, I love

00:38:24.240 John Piper, but maybe he just has never put flesh and bones on, uh, this thing. Maybe he's never

00:38:31.200 held a baby that's been saved by abortion. I think, um, pastor John Piper has an adopted

00:38:37.600 child, if I'm not mistaken. Um, so, and I know that he's had some amazing, uh, sermons and talks

00:38:44.500 about abortion and what an abomination it is. And I know he's very adamantly, uh, an abolitionist,

00:38:51.500 I think, um, you know, he wants it to end immediately. Um, but sometimes we can, um,

00:38:58.700 kind of step away and not really see things as clearly if we don't put flesh and bones on it,

00:39:04.600 you know what I mean? It's kind of an abstract concept rather than an actual living person

00:39:09.340 in front of me. Yeah. Yeah. I think, yeah, I think that's probably true. I think that's

00:39:14.540 insightful. I just, um, maybe at just a personal level being a little bit too far removed. I think

00:39:20.540 that's possible. And I think for me, I think probably also just, um, I, I, I, I know that

00:39:27.860 he wants abortion to end and he's worked very hard toward that. I think there's some, some

00:39:33.700 guys i've just realized that um it's not like a lack of commitment to um to fight against evil

00:39:40.460 but it's a lack of faith not not in god but uh in in terms of ending ending lawlessness through

00:39:50.580 through specific avenues and so like like you said you know that ultimately we're gonna you know

00:39:56.320 we're gonna end abortion through preaching the gospel and uh and hearts going from death to life

00:40:02.360 And so you're speaking of ultimately the church triumphs through, not through coercion, but through, and not even legislation, but which would be coercion, but through persuasion.

00:40:14.740 And so to the church has not been given a physical sword.

00:40:18.700 Everything the government does, it does it at gunpoint, including, you know, requiring taxes.

00:40:23.480 Like if you don't pay your taxes, eventually someone will show up.

00:40:25.980 And if they show up and you still don't pay your taxes, eventually a gun will come into the picture.

00:40:29.820 everything that the government does is at gunpoint, meaning that it is coerced. And that

00:40:36.420 doesn't mean it's necessarily wrong. So long as they're legislating righteously, then God has

00:40:41.620 given them that gun. You know, Romans 13 says a sword, it's a physical sword to coerce, and it's

00:40:47.420 meant to deter evil and to reward righteousness. And to the church has been given a sword, but it's

00:40:54.820 the sword of the spirit. And so rather than a physical sword with coercion, it's a spiritual

00:40:59.100 sword for persuasion and so we preach and uh and we persuade and um and we deter evil in in that

00:41:06.760 regard and i think for some christians i think it's just it's just still too much of that separation

00:41:12.860 of church and state um which which i i know what they mean by that i agree but there's a difference

00:41:19.280 between church and state versus a separation of um of christ and state right so like we don't want

00:41:25.660 a state-run church, and we don't want a church-run state, but when we say that the church and the

00:41:30.840 state should be separate, we're not saying that Christ and the state should be separate. We believe

00:41:35.220 that the state should be Christian in the sense that it should legislate moral laws and morality.

00:41:42.940 Ultimately, the standard for morality is God's Word. So it's either man's law or God's law,

00:41:49.140 and so God's law is what should be legislated and what should be enforced, and I think a lot

00:41:54.180 of christians have just they've forgotten that so it's not that they're that it's not that they're

00:41:58.120 apathetic it's not that they don't want to see abortion ended i think they just they they don't

00:42:03.320 have any faith or or even a theological framework for ending abortion through the state through

00:42:11.140 legislation but like so you know you know we say like we're gonna we're gonna beat abortion through

00:42:16.780 regenerate hearts and and i agree with you at the same time i push back just a little bit and say

00:42:21.440 we as a nation, we've beat first degree murder outside of the children in the womb without

00:42:29.100 regenerate hearts. A ton of people who are unregenerate don't love Jesus. In their heart,

00:42:34.720 Romans 8, 7, they're hostile towards God, not just neutral and different, but hostile towards God.

00:42:40.760 And yet we have by policy on the books laws that a premeditated murder, you're going to be punished.

00:42:47.600 And that doesn't mean that murder doesn't happen, but we don't have a million murders, first degree murders a year.

00:42:54.400 It's much smaller than that because in God's law, the number one way he deters us from evil is by giving us new hearts.

00:43:04.620 But he also deters even the wicked from evil through a sword, through the threat of penalty, through coercion.

00:43:14.800 through. And so, and I want Christians to get that also. So like, let's plant churches. Let's

00:43:20.720 make disciples. Let's preach the gospel and see people converted from death to life. But let's

00:43:26.300 also take the Christians we have. We don't have to, we don't have to win the whole nation in terms

00:43:31.380 of each and every individual person being born again in order to outlaw abortion. Those Christians

00:43:37.500 who are Christians, let's go to abortion clinics. Let's cry out, but let's also, let's run for

00:43:43.640 office. Let's, we need Christians in the civil magistrate and fighting for, and I think that

00:43:52.120 we've just, we've taken the whole realm of politics, the whole realm of civil magistrate

00:43:57.920 and government officials, and we've just kind of, I don't know if we've demonized it, but I think

00:44:03.120 we've just, we've made it vain and empty and insignificant. Whereas like every young man I

00:44:10.300 talk to, if he's serious about Jesus, he wants to be a pastor. And that was me. But now I really

00:44:16.840 want to encourage young men, if they're serious about Jesus, to also consider running for local

00:44:23.860 office. Because we really do have the ability, a Christian in the state, and the church is one

00:44:30.900 thing. We preach, we persuade. But a Christian, those multiple identities, you're in Christ first

00:44:37.680 and foremost, but then a husband and a father. Well, if your vocation is that you're a senator

00:44:41.780 who is a Christian following Christ, then to you actually has been given a sword to legislate

00:44:49.700 through coercion, righteousness, and life. And I think, I'm not saying Roe versus Wade is going

00:44:57.100 to be overturned tomorrow, but man, God continues to give us what we need rather than what we

00:45:06.580 deserve i don't know why some of the things are happening that are happening right now we don't

00:45:10.640 deserve it as a nation um you know but god is being so merciful right now and i just feel like

00:45:16.640 we we have we have an opportunity and and i think we need to seize it on every front on the church

00:45:23.740 planting preaching front on the civil magistrate run for office front on the november 3rd get off

00:45:30.900 your butt and go vote front you know on every front oh absolutely so yeah and going back to

00:45:36.820 what you said you know we we see it all the time we see non-believers fighting for things that

00:45:43.780 you would think only believers would you know like so what i mean look at look at all the

00:45:50.280 the catholics that are out you know fighting to end abortion so yeah anyways that's a perfect

00:45:57.040 example that i always say like when people say like can cath or uh can catholics be christian

00:46:03.540 i always say absolutely uh despite catholicism but not because of it you know so so there are

00:46:09.820 plenty there are plenty of christian catholics but but the reason why they're christian catholics

00:46:13.820 is because christian catholics are bad catholics if they were good catholics they wouldn't be

00:46:17.780 christian because they would follow catholic doctrine which absolutely you know you know

00:46:22.240 opposes go ahead and then like we'll see we'll be out just handing out you know gospel tracts

00:46:28.060 sometimes and it's the funniest thing happens uh you know a non-believer will be like mocking us

00:46:34.260 or scoffing and they'll what do they do they get our tracts and they go and pass them out

00:46:39.540 hey look at this it's so funny in a mocking way but god will use the wicked for his own purposes

00:46:47.900 so yeah i totally that happens oh yeah it's happened more than once where they'll grab and

00:46:54.800 then they'll show their friends and they'll say hey did you see this and suddenly they're

00:46:58.700 distributing tracts they're not doing it in a way uh their heart isn't in the right place but

00:47:05.160 they're still handing that gospel tract over to somebody else to read so wow that that's i mean

00:47:10.840 that's exactly what the apostle paul says you know when he says like some people you know while

00:47:14.960 while he was imprisoned there are people who are preaching and he says and and their their

00:47:19.980 exclusive motive is it is to mock me they're like it's almost like like they're preaching the gospel

00:47:26.700 sarcastically uh and but but it's funny like paul says but uh whether by false motives are true like

00:47:35.160 i i praise god that christ is being preached and if and and if they were preaching if these are

00:47:40.140 people who are preaching a false Christ, Paul wouldn't be thanking God. There are plenty of

00:47:45.340 Judaizers and plenty of false teachers that Paul adamantly opposed. And he said, you know, don't

00:47:50.380 listen to them. But then it seems like there's this other group that's like, they have the

00:47:58.560 right message, but the wrong motive. And Paul thanks God for that. And so it's, yeah, it's

00:48:06.200 funny that uh it's funny that somebody could literally they're not even doing it for the

00:48:10.880 glory of God and it for us as Christians it's like what like there's no reason to do the things we do

00:48:17.800 as Christians and and to and to preach the things we preach as Christians if not for the glory of

00:48:23.400 God and the good of his people and yet and yet in God's providence though whether it be to mock

00:48:29.560 Christians whether it be sarcastic or whether I don't know but we look through all of scripture

00:48:34.680 and there's just example after example of like Cyrus or Nebuchadnezzar or King Darius or there's

00:48:41.480 just like example after example of of people who it's not it's it doesn't seem like they're a

00:48:49.140 Christian and yet they for whatever reason God raised them up to assist the people of God and

00:48:56.500 and I and that's how I think of getting back to politics like I you know that I just that's what

00:49:03.080 I think of, I think like Christianity and the Republican Party are not synonymous. Republicanism

00:49:09.580 is not the gospel. It's not the scripture. And yet in God's providence, there are measures of

00:49:18.960 his common grace. And I think of Ben Shapiro. I praise God for Ben Shapiro. Is he a Christian?

00:49:26.240 No, he doesn't believe that Jesus is the son of God. So of course he's not a Christian. If he

00:49:31.280 died tonight, he'd be in hell. And I'd be super sad about that because I really love Ben Shapiro.

00:49:37.700 And, you know, but like, but he's a wonderful example, I think of God's common grace. And right

00:49:41.940 now between Trump and his administration, we have, well, for one, we have examples of God's special

00:49:48.560 grace. Like I believe Mike Pence is a Christian, but, but then we have so many examples of God's

00:49:53.800 common grace. And I think as Christians, I think that we just have to, we have to nuance it a

00:49:59.140 little bit. We have to just take the time in our language to say, look, I'm not saying that

00:50:04.480 republicanism is the gospel. I'm not saying that all these guys are Christians, but I am saying

00:50:09.920 that there's a standard. And so I'm able to look at policy. I'm able to look at practice. I'm able

00:50:15.600 to look at people, at all these things. And I'm able to take that and measure it against the

00:50:22.720 standard, God's standard. And I'm able to look and say, all right, this man is not a Christian,

00:50:28.000 But this policy is in line with God's word. And so I don't have to just, it's not black and white.

00:50:35.220 It's not all or nothing. It's not, you know, I don't have to throw out the baby with the bath

00:50:38.840 water. I can thank God for his common grace. I don't know why this guy is on my side. I don't

00:50:44.920 know why he's doing the things he's doing, but I'm able to identify that. And I'm able to,

00:50:51.200 so I don't have to say Trump has an arrogant Twitter account. Therefore, I'm never going

00:50:56.080 to vote for him and i also don't have to on the other side i don't have to uh take a picture with

00:51:01.320 donald trump and say that he's my mentor and and the the holiest christian that's up you know i

00:51:06.160 mean and christian it's just like they're on both sides it's like either donald trump is the devil

00:51:10.100 or or donald trump um should should you know when he's finished being the president maybe he'll be

00:51:15.760 my next pastor and it's like what like like i i there's it's more nuanced than that i can say

00:51:22.580 yeah I there's there's some concerning things and yet at the same time there's there's some good

00:51:28.420 things and we can take one without the other and I think we can just nuance it and just be a little

00:51:34.360 bit more mature and a little bit more discerning and and careful with our language and um and we

00:51:40.600 it doesn't have to be so black and white we thank God for common grace so right all right well any

00:51:48.640 any kind of last thoughts or ideas that come to you about the topic of abortion,

00:51:55.260 how Christians, it doesn't have to be politics, but just at any, I don't know,

00:51:59.380 any takeaways of how, how Christians can do their part to end abortion.

00:52:03.680 Yeah. I just think of 1 John 3, 18, little children,

00:52:07.060 let us not love with word and tongue, but indeed in truth. You know, we,

00:52:11.140 like you said, we need to do everything we can to love our neighbors, you know,

00:52:17.040 and that includes voting and getting out there, go to the abortion clinic.

00:52:22.260 You know, I think it really starts at home,

00:52:25.100 educating our children about the sanctity of life.

00:52:28.960 I talk to my children about it all the time and children, they know,

00:52:33.900 they know, like, I mean,

00:52:35.300 I just had a baby and they knew that their little brother was their little

00:52:39.960 brother from the time that he was conceived till the time he was born.

00:52:44.480 And so I think starting at home and raising up our children to fight this fight when we no longer can.

00:52:52.160 Hopefully they won't have to. Hopefully it'll be ended before that.

00:52:56.040 But yeah, go out, go out to the abortion clinics, go, go vote for somebody that's going to be more in line with that.

00:53:03.280 Go adopt children. There's so many things Christians can be doing, but we need to be the salt and we need to be the light and we don't need to shrink back.

00:53:11.300 to think now is the time to fight and we need to fight with all that we've got amen yeah I like

00:53:19.620 that I think that's a good way to end this episode it's just let's do it all I think that's that's

00:53:24.300 the pushback that we would get is just some people would say you know don't don't go out there and

00:53:28.500 preach at people at an abortion clinic like just adopt babies or just train your children about and

00:53:34.200 and and I think I would want that person if they're watching this to just to hear you and to

00:53:39.520 hear me saying that, look, we're not advocating for one as a substitute for the other. We do it

00:53:44.860 all. Go adopt a baby and, and then take that baby with you to the abortion clinic and, and preach

00:53:52.540 life. And so just do it all. And, um, yeah, so that's good. Thanks so much, Desi, for coming on

00:53:59.780 the show. Um, can you tell us how to follow you? I know some of our listeners would love to keep

00:54:05.120 up with you. Yeah, you can go to Apologia Studios. We have a podcast called Provoke. So you can look

00:54:12.380 at us up there where we have Instagram. We're also on all the podcast platforms, iTunes, Spotify.

00:54:22.000 Yeah, if you want to learn how you and your church can get more involved in the fight,

00:54:26.080 you can go to End Abortion Now and get free resources and training. There's a ton of good,

00:54:31.440 amazing content on there on how to get started in doing abortion mill ministry. And we've had

00:54:38.560 churches all actually across the world that have joined and we've lost count of how many babies

00:54:43.940 have been saved through End Abortion Now. So if that's something that you and your church are

00:54:48.440 interested in doing, then yeah, go to endabortionnow.com and you can learn more.

00:54:53.100 Praise God. That's great. All right. So for our responders, if you're not a responder,

00:54:58.940 That's our club members.

00:55:00.560 We encourage you to become a responder, help support Right Response Ministries and getting

00:55:06.680 the gospel and biblical resources in people's hands as a supplement to the local church.

00:55:12.040 It's a great help to us.

00:55:13.880 And as kind of a gift to you for our club members, we have our bonus reel.

00:55:20.120 And so Desi is going to stay on for a little after hours conversation.

00:55:24.380 And so just to whet your appetite, our bonus question that me and Desi will be talking

00:55:28.340 about is, what did you think about Jeff Durbin's sermon at the Fight Laugh Feast Conference and

00:55:35.060 some of the backlash that it's received? And so I was actually there in person at the Fight Laugh

00:55:40.280 Feast Conference, heard the sermon. Spoiler alert, I thought it was fantastic. But some people don't

00:55:46.760 really like it. And Desi is, you know, Jeff is her pastor and her husband's a deacon there at

00:55:51.560 Apology at Church. And so I was going to pick her brain and see what she thought. So thanks for

00:55:56.040 tuning in. And if you're not a responder, become a responder and check out our bonus edition as

00:56:01.300 me and Desi talk a little bit about Jeff Durbin and the Fight Lab Feast Conference. Thanks.

The NXR Podcast - November 11, 2020

THEOLOGY APPLIED - Abolishing Abortion： The Death Blow To The Culture Of Death

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