In this episode of Theology Applied, Pastor Joel interviews Mark Hamilton, a police detective in the city of Buffalo, New York. Mark and his wife Ruth are a loving, hard-working, and caring family and friends.
00:00:00.520Applying God's Word to every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied.
00:00:12.300Hi, this is Pastor Joel with Right Response Ministries. We have another episode of Theology
00:00:17.540Applied, our podcast slash show. Today I'm privileged to have as a special guest, Mark
00:00:22.400Hamilton. Mark Hamilton and I have gotten to know each other recently through social media
00:00:26.660and then having a call on the phone and he wears many hats he is a pastor of a church called
00:00:32.900faithful stones and he'll share some of that with us but that's not really his day job he's a
00:00:38.180bivocational pastor his primary vocation in terms of income for his family is he is a detective
00:00:45.000in buffalo new york he also does a lot with fitness if you ever check out his instagram
00:00:50.960you'll see a lot of fitness tips and he does a lot of that not just for vanity or image or those
00:00:55.840kinds of things, but to train public servants and how to be more equipped and more effective
00:01:01.940in their jobs. He's also a husband. He's also, by God's grace, a father of five. So without further
00:01:07.240ado, Mark Hamilton, anything I missed, feel free to introduce yourself. Welcome to the show.
00:01:14.000Well, thank you for having me, Joel. It's a pleasure and a joy to be here. I'm
00:01:18.900overwhelmed by God's grace, how he has brought us together. Yes, as you said, I am a husband of a
00:01:27.560lovely wife, a nice lady, as I joke with her. She's a nice lady, and she laughs because she
00:01:36.540truly is. She's a worthy woman, as Ruth says, and she loves her family. She loves God, and she loves
00:01:44.820the people of God. Our girls, we're raising to love God most so that if they love God most,
00:01:56.500they will love us just fine and everyone else too. So we are happy to have our family
00:02:04.800growing by God's grace. Tell me a little bit about what is it like being a detective? What's
00:02:13.720it like being a police officer in buffalo what's what's the temperature there in new york well
00:02:18.420uh i i believe it would be um similar to what's going on around the country um the the temperature
00:02:27.840is high um emotions about what's going on is uh at a fever pitch really because um everybody is
00:02:38.080reacting emotionally. And in my case, I get to see what I call the ethnic emotionalism
00:02:47.220because we have a lot of premature reacting to situations that heightens the situation,
00:02:58.500makes it worse. It doesn't make it better. It doesn't bring any calm or any sense to the matter.
00:03:04.960It just brings feelings and personal agendas to the situation.
00:03:10.920So being a detective in the city of Buffalo, I would be able to sympathize with a lot of the officers around the nation that are going through things, some deservantly, some undeservantly.
00:03:30.100Most of it is unwarranted, I would say.
00:03:33.220Most of it is unwarranted because the heightened pitch where the media has really infused this animosity against the police and the citizens is just, it's unfair and unwarranted.
00:03:51.860Right. I was going to say, it's not just that you're under the police department all across our nation. It's not just that police are under intense scrutiny or meticulous scrutiny. But it's like you said, it's unfair scrutiny because basically you have what nobody likes. I don't like it. Nobody likes it. Even pastors, you know, don't enjoy when somebody who doesn't have your job thinks they know more about your job than you do and tells you how to do it.
00:04:17.960You know, so you have, I mean, you have the whole nation and part of that's just the phenomenon of social media and everybody carrying around a video camera in their pocket, essentially, you know, and being able to, but the problem is, you know, I keep thinking about, I think it's Proverbs 18, 17, that, you know, the first one to bring his case seems right until another cross examines him.
00:04:39.680And you might say, and I think with the George Floyd instance, a lot of people are like, hey, that's not just somebody bringing their case.
00:05:08.200And so I can't imagine in your line of work being under, you know, not just intense scrutiny, but unfair scrutiny from the peanut gallery, you know, like just your average Joe who doesn't know anything about the police department, but then also the higher paid peanut gallery, a.k.a. the mainstream media, you know, who's really kind of the peanut gallery these days also.
00:05:33.420But who, you know, are saying, well, why don't why don't you just I saw Wyatt Earp shoot a shoot somebody's gun out of their hand.
00:05:39.980Why don't why don't police officers aim for the weapon in their hand, you know, and things like that.
00:05:44.640So do you have any comments on that? I just can only imagine what the frustration you might feel.
00:05:50.020Well, yes, I do, because it's almost that, you know, people want you to take sides.0.87
00:05:56.320You're black, Mark, and you're a cop and you're a pastor. What do you say?0.78
00:06:03.420Well, I quickly and hurry to say what's right. What's right. The scriptures you brought in in Proverbs 18, one man thinks he's right until he's cross-examined, and then it's a different matter.
00:06:18.100And I think the church, the community has done a poor job, especially my community, because again, no matter how much you beat the drum, no matter how much you try to stand, and a lot of times you stand alone, pointing out the truth.
00:06:34.540um what happened to george floyd uh what i said one thing i said because my my my social media
00:06:42.060as you said is is business and uh is to serve people in a in a physical way um but i i did
00:06:50.300speak out because i seen so many people reacting um prematurely uh you know just uh saying this
00:06:57.940in saying that. And one thing that I wanted to make clear is that George Floyd might not look
00:07:06.280like you. He might not live where you lived, but he deserved the right, the respect, the care,
00:07:16.320the love that image bearer of God deserves, as well as Derek Chauvin. And when you put that
00:07:27.160in there, it's like, wait a minute, stop the press. What do you mean? No, no. The Bible is
00:07:35.660clear. There is no partiality with God. God shows no respecter of people or persons. And so real
00:07:43.880justice without the adjectives is God's justice. Just justice is of God, is of truth. And we wait
00:07:52.800till a matter is heard fully no matter what color you are no matter what economic status you are0.93
00:07:58.900and so you you have to look at the matter and it's so tough being um a black man on the police
00:08:07.820department is like double whammy when people look at you and they question you and they automatically
00:08:13.440think yes we're together but no no we're not together we're not together in that sense i'm
00:08:19.100sorry yes i love you uh but but but the truth matters the truth matters facts matters and i
00:08:25.920can't detach myself from it right and it's and when you say like i'm not with you i i think i
00:08:31.660can speak for you in this matter and you correct me if i'm wrong but you're you're saying you know
00:08:36.040if there's if there's another uh you know person uh in the black community who's looking on and
00:08:41.520you're you know you're investigating some kind of crime or something like that and they're like hey
00:08:44.660you're with me you know uh you're like no i'm not with you but also i think you would say mark and
00:08:49.640i'm not with them i'm not i'm not with the black community i'm not with the police i'm with christ
00:08:53.640i'm with the truth wherever that lands whatever whatever side and and so that's i mean
00:09:00.400our world is so we've we've there's so much tribalism today we're so polarized we're so
00:09:07.440divided and uh and everybody's passing out you know everybody's passing out t-shirts or everybody's
00:09:12.540passing out jerseys you know join our team um get on get on the right side of history get on the
00:09:17.700right team you know and uh and it's really hard as christians uh to continually say uh no team
00:09:25.420but christ that's that's the team that's the team that we're on and and all of these all these
00:09:31.140secondary ways of of finding identity it's not that they don't matter like that you know the
00:09:36.960bible speaks to secondary identity i was i was talking about this recently on uh with you know
00:09:42.060with a friend but you know our primary identity there's only only two identities a person can have
00:09:46.620uh you're either in christ or you're in adam right you're in christ and all the blessings of god are
00:09:52.340you by virtue of your union with christ by grace through faith in in christ or you're in adam you're
00:09:58.180a dead man walking you're on death row under the just condemnation of god and if he does not
00:10:02.380intervene in his salvation then um you're hopeless you're without hope in the world first corinthians
00:10:07.94015 talks about that so in christ or in adam at a secondary identity level um there's well i would
00:10:14.300say the next biggest thing is male and female uh genesis 1 27 male and female he made them in his
00:10:21.360image uh he made them and and then you know further down we might say tertiary it's not that it
00:10:26.880doesn't matter it does matter um but but beneath gender male and female there's only two genders
00:10:32.440then we then we would have ethnicity we'd have black white brown asian you know and and down
00:10:37.080the gambit and that does matter because we do have you know revelations and texts that say
00:10:41.200from every tribe tongue and nation right that god is you know heaven is going to be ethnically
00:10:46.440diverse and so that's something that god created something that should be celebrated but what i've
00:10:50.600noticed in our culture today is you know what ultimately the pagan culture the unbeliever0.56
00:10:55.660wants to do is always pervert the truth twist the truth turn things ultimately on their head0.96
00:11:00.980right so like god says if you eat of the fruit uh you you shall surely die and satan says you
00:11:05.980will not die but rather and he doesn't just say god's lying you won't die but he turns it on his
00:11:10.900head he says not only will you not die you will be like god and so there's always this reversal of
00:11:16.520upside down flipping things and so in our pagan culture unbelieving culture um we have i think
00:11:22.260from a biblical worldview we have like top tier identity in christ in adam right then second i
00:11:28.180think we'd have things like male female and and subcategories from male and female we'd have um
00:11:33.000a man who is a husband a man who is a father and these are secondary identities that matter because
00:11:38.680the bible has specific things to say based on which category you fall into if you're a woman
00:11:43.740the bible has something to say if you're a man the bible has something a lot of similar things but
00:11:48.620some distinct things also to say to a man uh versus a woman and then if you're a husband or
00:11:54.520if you're single the bible has different things to say um but then again down the line ethnicity
00:11:59.820And what our culture, I think, has done is our culture says male and female, that's a distinction, an identity category that doesn't matter at all.
00:12:12.340Male and female, that's a category that doesn't even exist.
00:12:15.540Genders doesn't even exist, this binary gender.
00:12:18.960But then they'll take something that is a biblical category of ethnicity.
00:12:22.940but but in my assessment in biblical terms of priority um the identity that an individual
00:12:29.140person gets from being black or white i think um is is inferior to the identity in terms of
00:12:37.300biblical terms and what the bible has to say of man or woman i think the bible has a lot more to
00:12:42.380say about if you're a man or a woman and then certainly the most to say about whether you're
00:12:47.700in Christ or Adam. So in, in Adam or in Christ, man, woman, and then, you know, we could say black,
00:12:54.160white. And what our culture has done is said, man and woman doesn't matter at all, or it doesn't
00:12:58.240even exist. Black and white means everything, you know? And so a man, you know, like Caitlyn
00:13:03.740Jenner, you know, Bruce Jenner, you know, a man can dress up like a woman, but we've seen a couple
00:13:09.600of times where some white person gets caught trying to, trying to pull off, you know, acting
00:13:13.880as though they were black and our culture doesn't really like that you know and and so it's just
00:13:18.320it's just you know and i would say both are wrong but but the problem is we've elevated these kind
00:13:23.120of tertiary identity categories um as as though they're the end all be all and so there's this
00:13:29.820extra incentive not just incentive but demand for you know you take a side take a side put on the
00:13:36.740jersey whose team are you on and so i just i i can't really i can't imagine the pressure that
00:13:42.320you feel are there a lot of other if i can add are there a lot of other black detectives or
00:13:46.380police officers where you work in buffalo or do you feel there are uh there there are other um
00:13:53.260black detectives and officers but uh we would we would be considered the minority uh times two
00:14:00.680um yeah because just that's just the makeup uh and that and that's a that's a whole nother issue but
00:14:08.180But there are. There are. And again, the way I think as a Christian man and that's that's my title.
00:14:20.080You know, all the other titles are secondary, as you just said, because the world, the culture tries to label you, even if you don't want the label.
00:14:31.480and they push that uh in the media they push that in the university they push that um in the open
00:14:39.420square and and that's all you hear uh but when once when one uh proclaims and identifies with
00:14:46.800christ um as uh the ultimate uh you you get so much pushback and and that's people in the church
00:14:57.020sadly now which we're dealing with uh but of course the world but uh the church that's the
00:15:04.140sad thing because you're dealing with these issues that the church is supposed to have is
00:15:08.460supposed to have the answers to put the church supposed to shed light and bring clarity to the
00:15:13.900truth and you're fighting um you're in fighting uh with friendly fires coming in from all sides
00:15:21.320about an issue that we're supposed to be in agreement on you know paul said i regard no one
00:15:26.840according to the flesh and he goes on to talk about we are uh we are new creatures in christ
00:15:34.520that should matter most yep amen so with with that the church and that you know friendly fire
00:15:41.560you know where the the church i can't remember who said it but he said um he said the church is
00:15:46.820one of the only armies he's ever seen the only group of soldiers he's ever seen that shoots its
00:15:52.080own and sadly and yet at the same time the church is the bride of Christ and Spurgeon says that you
00:15:58.960know even despite all the faults and all the infighting all those kinds of things Charles
00:16:02.760Spurgeon said that the church is she it's the sweetest place I know you know and so the church
00:16:07.800is it is the sweetest place on earth even with all its faults I think Calvin is the one who said that
00:16:13.320wherever the word of God is rightly preached and the sacraments rightly administered there a church
00:16:18.440of God exists, even if it swarms with many faults. And so we love the church, but she's rough
00:16:23.740sometime. And me and you are part of the problem. We're sheep too. We're under shepherds, but we
00:16:29.080kind of have that dual identity. We're Christ sheep who also are shepherds. And so we make
00:16:33.100plenty of mistakes. But speaking to your church specifically at a local level, how is your church
00:16:38.740handling that? With you being a police officer, you being their pastor, you really holding to a
00:16:44.700not social justice, but biblical justice and a biblical worldview and seeking to apply those
00:16:49.200things. Is your church with you, I guess? I'm sure plenty of them are. Or do you have,
00:16:55.900even at a pastoral level, do you have some of those moments with some of those individuals
00:17:00.840who are kind of buying into the spirit of this age? Well, isn't that the temptation?
00:17:08.240That's the temptation for us all. Romans 12 said, do not be conformed to this world,
00:17:13.560but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. And that's the emphasis at our church, that we
00:17:19.520would be transformed and reject, resist conformity to the culture, to stand up and to speak. He has
00:17:30.440given us his spirit to speak clearly and boldly of not our truth, as the world says, not a tribal
00:17:38.780truth, not an ethnic truth, but a biblical, Christ-centered truth where he is proclaimed
00:17:47.220and made much of. And, you know, they know my position, and I try to communicate that position
00:17:59.920from scripture, but without any other vantage point. As a police officer, I don't separate
00:18:08.240myself from being a police officer or anything else. I come as a servant of Christ saying,
00:18:17.820this is what God says. Thus says the Lord about every issue. That includes government. That
00:18:24.880includes the culture. That includes family. That includes all of our life. And I think,
00:18:31.680One of the major problems in the church is they have detached Christ from life, and the separation is obvious, and it is damaging where Christ is on the Lord's Day for an hour or two, and then on Bible study and whatever service you come to,
00:18:58.700But then you scatter and there is no reflection of his authority in our life.
00:19:05.060And so when things like this come, when things like this threaten the church, we are up in arms and we're questioning or we're giving an ear to these ideologies that are godless and pagan.
00:19:24.080and it's just plain evil because we cannot recognize the falsehood.
00:19:33.480Yep, I completely agree, and I think part of it is exactly what you're saying.
00:19:36.780It's all of Christ for all of life. It's theology applied.
00:19:39.920That's the point of this show, and it's when our theology is actually lived out.
00:19:46.120And I think part of the problem is there's a lot of evangelicals today who would, they would quickly salute the Bible as the inerrant word of God.
00:19:56.340They would absolutely affirm that the Bible is infallible, that it's without error, it's inerrant, that it's eternal, that it's immutable, that it's also fully authoritative.
00:20:07.380That it's the highest authority in all the universe, that it's absolute, that it's universal, all these kinds of things.
00:20:14.060objective uh the problem is that that you know something like like social justice comes on the
00:20:21.340scene or whatever it doesn't even have to be that issue but whatever it is um you leave the lord's
00:20:26.700day like you're saying you know you leave sunday you leave the church and you go about your life
00:20:31.040and whether it's in the home or whether it's on the street or in your vocation or in media or
00:20:36.760whatever it might be with parenting with education and what you know how are we going to school our
00:20:41.300children all these kinds of things um it's precisely at those points that um we don't
00:20:47.900question the authority of scripture we we question its relevancy we question the sufficiency of
00:20:53.680scripture not the authority of scripture but um and and what we think what many christians think
00:20:58.740is that um it's not that they're saying well i know god has said this but i i just want to do
00:21:03.240that um right that that happens sometimes we are that rebellious um but but often what i find
00:21:08.820pastorally is that a lot of times people say i know god says this what does this have anything
00:21:14.300to do with that yeah they don't they don't see they don't see um affirming saluting god's word
00:21:21.560here and then and then the way they're living in a particular action over there as a as a blatant
00:21:28.680contradiction they they don't see how the scripture applies i think that's a big part of the problem
00:21:34.580So especially with politics, I think a lot of Christians would say the Bible has nothing to say about politics.
00:21:40.540And really, pastors need to not really be talking about politics or preaching about politics that has no place in the church.
00:21:46.480And there's this clear line, separation of church and state, which a lot of people misinterpret what that's actually supposed to mean.
00:21:52.720And if the Bible says anything about politics at all, what do we hear most often?
00:21:57.900Romans 13, Romans 13, submit to the civil magistrate.
00:22:01.840And that gets exegeted to mean an unconditional submission to the civil magistrate, even when they might be legislating something that's contrary to God's word.
00:22:12.540And so there's just so many misnomers and so many misunderstandings about the word at the level of application.
00:22:22.440I think that's a big part of the problem, so that we see certain things and we just, Christians would be so quick to buy into narratives that are antithetical to the truth of God's Word.
00:22:36.400And it's not necessarily because of this blatant heart that desires to rebel, because we're speaking of Christians with new hearts that in their inner being they delight in the law of God.
00:22:45.620It's because in their mind, they have not yet conformed, been transformed rather to the truth of God's word to the degree that they see the connection between God's word says this.
00:22:59.280And that means on the ground, it means blank.
00:23:04.980I think it's that ground level Christianity, practical, lived out Christianity that I think a lot of the church is missing.
00:23:15.620So that being said, tell me, tell me, tell our listeners a little bit about the story that you shared with me just about your church, because it's a unique story of the church that you currently pastor, where it came from, how it got there. Share that with us.
00:23:27.680so uh grew up in the church um i'm a i would be a third generation preacher
00:23:34.200um grew up in my well at a very young age uh started off in my grandfather's church my father
00:23:41.740um shortly after um started his church um in 1983 um well actually i would say uh 1982 because he
00:23:54.640started in a house church preaching to drug addicts and drunks. And he grew out of there
00:24:02.720and bought and purchased a building. In 1983, we went into a building. The church was named
00:24:12.160Word of Faith. And all the baggage, all the heretical, damaging, dangerous doctrine of that
00:24:21.120movement came along with it. It wasn't as, I would say, blatant as some of the
00:24:31.460preachers you hear, but it was still just as deadly. And so, with that said, he started the
00:24:39.280church in 1983. We purchased a building. Church is flourishing. It's growing. But all the while,
00:24:49.500it's wrong. It's unbiblical. I mean, it's a seeker-friendly, so to speak, kind of church.0.93
00:25:00.000Everything goes. There was not much emphasis on the scriptures and the authority of them,
00:25:08.780And that as our king and head and our direction.
00:25:13.740And so by God's grace, my father continued to pastor.
00:25:20.420And let me add his mercy, because we often, you know, bring up that how merciful God was to allow us to operate in that state.
00:25:33.060But he knows. He knows. And I know by his great providence that he knew who he called and he knew who he drew out of darkness.
00:25:45.380And so for years, the church continued, it flourished and grew so much out of that particular building.
00:25:55.440We built another building. And right not shortly after that, we had success there.
00:26:05.960And seven years later, I believe, we paid off the mortgage off of a brand new building because people were giving faithful coming, all of that.
00:26:15.380But something still wasn't right, Joel. Something still wasn't right. We knew that. And I think that's when the Lord started to get my attention, just putting things in my path, you know, starting with, you know, listening to the Bible Answer Man and Hank Hanegraaff.
00:26:34.560And again, one thing led to another. I got a hold of John MacArthur, R.C. Sproul and the various ones. And I'm like, where is this? Where is this teaching? Where is this teaching? And I'm feeding my father like, Dad, you got to hear this. You got to listen.
00:26:56.240And so as it would happen, the Lord really convicted us, convicted us.
00:27:20.040And just in the scriptures saying, how is this true?
00:27:22.840And so that would go on. And then my father and I would have conversations, frequent conversations. And then the Lord opened his eyes. The Lord opened his eyes. There's no other way I can put it.
00:27:38.700And from that moment on, he committed to the biblical authority and doing things the right way. And he had to announce to the church that we're going in a different direction.
00:27:55.540And when he said that, Joel, it was done. It was done. You go from a full membership of over 200 people to 50 people.
00:28:08.700And they just started slowly. Everybody didn't leave at once. Everybody, but they just started slowly going for the door. And it was tough. It was sad. We cried. I know my dad was very, very broken over that.
00:28:28.240Anytime you, you're, you're, you're shepherding people and you're involved with families and, and then you, you, you have to expose and because you love them, because you love them.
00:34:08.040The first, in that 11-year journey for me,
00:34:10.500the first four years were just like what you're describing,
00:34:13.200where you can only chalk it up to the slowness of anger,
00:34:17.140his long suffering on the Lord's part, his mercy.
00:34:20.680So for the first four years, it's like,
00:34:22.080i shouldn't have even been doing this over the last you know seven years it was um it was this
00:34:27.580gradual reformation um being i believe pleasing to the lord the whole time but becoming more and
00:34:33.920more um formed forged into the image of christ better doctrine better character more love for
00:34:41.040holiness all those kinds of things but in that seven years there were those milestones right
00:34:46.780Like those big ticket items, like, okay, we don't believe in speaking in tongues anymore, you know, and some people walk out the door, you know, or I remember when I preached through 1 Timothy, you know, when I preached through 1 Timothy, and typically you get to hard text and you just kind of want to get past it, but I remember just being convicted, and we got to 1 Timothy chapter 2, verse 9 through 15, where it talks about,1.00
00:35:12.780i do not permit a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man she must remain silent1.00
00:35:17.240and you know in verse 15 says you know but women will be saved through childbearing if they continue1.00
00:35:22.520with faith you know and it's like that's like let's just get past that and i just i felt convicted
00:35:28.820and i so i slowed down and i spent four weeks just on those few verses and and you could literally
00:35:34.460each week that i came back there was a noticeable lack of of people at church like i mean like 10
00:35:41.70020 people per well not 20 but about 10 people per week for four weeks we lost about 40 people in
00:35:47.440that month and so anyways all that being said i i commend you i commend your father um you can tell
00:35:54.260i said this i i just the humility i think that's required um to do something because it's one thing
00:36:00.800for a young man to reform because really reform we're just talking about changing and in this
00:36:05.460particular case changing um in accordance with god's word um but but there's a reason why you
00:36:11.300know we have the old adage you know it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks right i mean the older
00:36:16.880a person is it's not that god doesn't save the elderly or change or reform the elderly but when
00:36:22.100a person has been going in a certain direction for a long time i think we could say god ultimately
00:36:26.940is sovereign he'll save whoever whenever he wants but there is a reason that most conversions happen
00:36:32.960at in the childhood years or even like maybe young adult college years but but and not to
00:36:40.080say that your father, this was his conversion. I don't know. But my point is to make a huge
00:36:44.660reformation and to say, yeah, the direction I was going was wrong. I'm going to repent. It's
00:36:50.000going to be costly. And I'm ultimately later on going to hand it over to my son. All that I think
00:36:56.040is just incredibly honorable. I know a little bit of what that's like. We didn't go from 200 to 50.
00:37:02.040that but my hat is off to you and your dad for for doing whatever it took to be ultimately to
00:37:10.700to love the glory that comes from God more than the glory that comes from them so good on you
00:37:16.620for that so anything else you want to share about just being a pastor and and what that's like
00:37:22.060Well, it's a tall task, but I do enjoy serving the people of God. I do enjoy serving the people of God because I watch my dad. One thing, out of the things he's admitted and repented of, he did a lot of things right.
00:37:45.260And I've seen how he served the people. I've seen how he studied. He is a masterful wordsmith in the word of God, can quote large portions of scripture.
00:38:00.760And I gained that love of the scriptures from my father, because, you know, just quoting from it's nothing like quoting the scriptures from memory and having it come out of hiding at the right at the right times.
00:38:18.640And so I love teaching that to the people and teaching them to love the word of God, because loving the word of God means loving Christ.
00:38:31.080And so now with this right understanding and this reforming to this authority that's higher than anything and which should guide us and be our light, this is our goal.
00:38:49.300This is my goal is to create a love for the glory of Jesus Christ in our people.
00:38:55.220and uh we are on a a path of uh of feeding the confessions and catechisms and uh we're going
00:39:04.840through all of that i had a a dear sister come to me yeah after the study of the scriptures the
00:39:11.480other night and said uh pastor it's this is what i've been looking for this is what this is this
00:39:19.100is what we need. And that just, I mean, it just melted my heart because even though I know what
00:39:25.680the scripture says, I know what I'm supposed to be doing, that confirmation from the flock,
00:39:31.380the confirmation from the people that you are feeding is just, it's second to none. And I just
00:39:39.080praise God for that. So pastoring is an all-day, everyday grind, as you may mention of. But
00:39:52.640I do love seeing people grow from this point to this point and grasp the understanding of the
00:40:04.420word so with that all day grind everything you said beautiful i agree wholeheartedly but with
00:40:11.360that all day grind because i completely agree being a pastor is just you're always on the clock
00:40:16.020now that doesn't mean you're always working pastors sleep pastors get to hang out with their
00:40:19.360wives and their kids and all that kind of so i don't want to make it sound miserable but but
00:40:22.780faithful pastors uh work hard and they're always it's 24 7 in the sense that they're always on
00:40:28.600call for the sheep there's there's always a sense that um if the sheep are in trouble
00:40:33.460right the pastor he gets out of bed and he goes and he helps the sheep that's the difference
00:40:38.060john chapter 10 between you know the shepherd and the hired hand right the hired hand stays in bed
00:40:43.260you know as a sheep is getting ripped apart by a bear or a wolf you know and uh but but the pastor
00:40:48.920gets out of bed he goes and he takes his staff and he puts his life on the line and he tries to
00:40:53.280defend the sheep and so it is a full-time endeavor so with that being said what's it like this is
00:41:00.580kind of my next question with your pastoral ministry. What's it like being bivocational?
00:41:04.740What's it like having, because it's not just bivocational in the sense that you're, you know,
00:41:08.280you work a, you know, punch in, punch out 40 hour a week job, you know, and then go pastor,
00:41:13.060but you're working another, another vocation that is also, I can only imagine fairly demanding.
00:41:20.380So what, what is that like? Well, prioritizing and really narrowing down what really
00:41:30.500matters. My life at home has been totally rearranged. My wife is so wonderful with
00:41:41.600our children and scheduling and things of that nature and keeping the home intact where
00:41:49.580our time is basically planned and scheduled and things of that nature. No time for television.
00:41:58.700I think television has been just dwindling, dwindling down to nothing.
00:42:04.300You know, the TV is not on through the week and we'll allow the kids to watch it on the weekend or whatever, you know, for a little bit.
00:42:12.580But there's so much to do, Joe. There's so much to do. There's so much to read.
00:42:17.280There's so much to prepare for. You know, you mentioned taking care of the sheep in the middle of the night.
00:42:25.640We have one elder right now in the hospital right now. If you can keep in your prayers, Elder Cyrus Hines. He's a dear brother that's been with us, and he suffered a stroke, and we've been visiting in the hospital, taking care of whatever he wants me to do and the things of that nature.
00:42:50.560And again, with the reform and things like that, preparing for, we're preparing for a walk at our local, it's called Compass Care. This Saturday is a walk for their services is erasing the need for abortion.
00:43:09.820And so our church is preparing for that. We're trying to get the word out for that. We're trying to be in touch with the community. And there's always something to do. And that issue in itself is a tall task.
00:43:27.340So, again, working, my vocational job, yes, it's demanding, but I love it. I'm in a position now as a detective where I can slow down a little bit, where I'm not on the beat in patrol, where now I'm doing investigations and things of that nature.
00:43:48.680So it's it's it's good. It's good. I'm in a good place. I'm in a good place so I can balance until the Lord takes me off of the job totally so I can devote myself to full time pastoring.
00:44:06.260And that and that is your desire, because I will definitely be praying for that. I didn't ask you that previously.
00:44:10.640But is that what you would like to do is is vocational ministry?
00:44:14.340it it's it most certainly is it most certainly is praise god i think that's great um okay so
00:44:22.520we've talked about your church we've talked a little bit about policing we've talked about
00:44:26.680your family and your five kids being a husband um towards the end of the show here last thing
00:44:33.200kind of going back to the police department going back to some of the some of the crazy rhetoric and
00:44:38.720some of those big, you know, hot button issues in our culture today, Black Lives Matter, those
00:44:44.420kinds of things. Recently, and I told you ahead of time, I was going to ask you about this. And so
00:44:50.420hopefully, hopefully you're not caught off guard. But recently, there was a, there was some, some
00:44:56.160infamous tweets, or at least one from LeBron James, great at basketball, very poor in my assessment
00:45:35.840They had a picture of the police officer, I believe it's the police officer, who shot Micaiah Bryant, who is the young black woman who, as far as we know from the body cam footage, you know, but we should say just, you know, because one is thought right until another cross examines him.
00:45:52.380So we should use the legal terminology, the one, this black, young black woman who allegedly, so we'll say allegedly, was attempting to stab with a knife another young black woman.
00:46:04.740and so anyway so that was that was that was news that that you know uh it's very polarizing and
00:46:12.160you know people lebron is a saint saint lebron and then other people saying well wait wait a second
00:46:17.240man black lives matter like this police officer technically as far as we know was saving a black
00:46:23.180life namely the girl who was going to be stabbed by another girl do you have any thoughts on that
00:46:29.660what you know if if lebron being as respectful as possible if lebron was sitting here you know
00:46:34.300in this video chat with us in this recording, what would you say to him?
00:46:42.500Well, I want to be gracious, of course, to the young man.
00:46:49.900With his influence and his platform, the good he could do,
00:46:54.880the change he can make is so great and is so sad, Joel,
00:47:03.460that he is using it for filthy lucre to use the old term uh king james version term i mean um0.86
00:47:12.380to to to be that irresponsible to be that irresponsible black lives he wore the shirt0.85
00:47:20.700he wore the shirt um he's uh you know he's pumping the fists and protests um but0.96
00:47:29.260it's he's not um lining up with what he is what he he claims to fight for he's not lining up his
00:47:42.420speech is not lining up when when you critique a police officer that has seconds to make a decision
00:47:51.560and you have no idea of the circumstances or the facts and you come out so quickly
00:47:59.660and again irresponsibly it is so damaging because you have the ear of so many young people you have
00:48:09.820the ear of so many of the culture young and old you have fans of all ages listening to you and
00:48:17.860and they pay attention to what you're saying and now you are putting in jeopardy and danger the
00:48:24.920life of of everyone when you say or when you put out that kind of rhetoric and and and even this
00:48:32.980is not the first time he's tweeted i believe in 2020 he's tweeted something like you know the
00:48:38.260police are hunting us down every day something to that matter it was just grossly irresponsible
00:48:44.000And you know that's not true. And I think he added, every time we step out of the homes, LeBron, please, out of your home, every time you step out of your home, they're, I mean, that's just so hypocritical.0.81
00:48:58.480And it is dangerous, though. And then you have the echoing of other athletes and actors and entertainers advising people to resist the police. You know, you just put not only that person and that police, but everybody that can suffer from that interaction in danger.
00:49:20.600And so for LeBron to continue to talk about, and then he uses accountability. There's no accountability because if there was, you would not have tweeted that tweet. And, you know, you just continue to use your platform for bad as opposed to what you could be using it for.
00:49:39.720And I just think it's just grossly unfortunate that he would say what he said and then put, you know, blast that, that officer putting his picture there and all of that. And again, as you mentioned, we forget to, we forget to see that he saved a life.
00:49:56.760He actually saved a life. I mean, I can't imagine that he wanted him not to shoot the young lady and let her get stabbed to death by the other young lady.
00:50:17.780But it's just, again, it's unfortunate. And I wish he would not, you know, if you're going to voice your opinion, don't use it as a weapon. Don't use it as a weapon, as a divisive tool, because that's what I think ultimately he's doing.
00:50:40.500he's he's doing and he's creating an unbelievable danger an unbelievable danger when you when you
00:50:48.140say the police are hunting us down when you say you're next that you know people that are people
00:50:55.220that are not um thinking will act on those words well they will act on those words you know
00:51:06.800Oh, absolutely. And then I don't think and I don't believe that that's what he wants. But the careless tweets will that will be the result of it for sure.
00:51:18.960Yeah, I was going to ask you. That's really good. I was going to ask you in that light, you know, you said two things. You said it's hypocritical, and I completely agree with you, and I think that's palpable. I think the hypocrisy of, you know, not just to pick on LeBron, but anybody in the limelight, in the spotlight, you know, to say something like, you know, like the moment we step out of our homes.
00:51:42.780it's like like you step out of your home how much does your home cost you probably have private
00:51:46.740security you know all these like so it's hypocritical that that's clear but i like that
00:51:51.320you said mark you said you know it's also irresponsible and i and i just wanted to kind
00:51:55.860of ask and it sounds like you're already saying this but i wanted to ask you in terms of um
00:51:59.360in terms of that irresponsibility of putting the picture right it's one thing the social
00:52:04.700commentary you know and for it to be hypocritical and backwards and upside down and just untrue
00:52:09.180um as far as we can tell um but but for it to be irresponsible putting the picture of the police
00:52:14.960officer and i wanted to ask you from you know somebody who serves on the force um from from
00:52:20.320your kind of talk some inside baseball here that with that police officer would he is he does that
00:52:27.660actually would that put him in physical danger because i would i would imagine it would absolutely
00:52:33.080So oftentimes, now you see the movements, Black Lives Matter, Antifa, the various people that hate the police, that yell, defund the police, and all of those types of things.
00:52:50.300They're on a mission to destroy officers, especially those that are in the limelight.
00:52:58.580And so now when you have someone of LeBron's status putting a pitcher there, and I'm not sure if he put the name, but the name was out there already.
00:53:26.840Yes, he's in danger. Yes, he's in danger for putting his name on blast and putting his picture there. Because again, the crazies, for lack of a better word, those that have no sense and no care for life, they will act on that.
00:53:50.000And so, yes, absolutely, without a doubt, he would be in danger for doing something like that.
00:53:55.420And I believe that's why the suit, I believe he's suing him for that very reason or one among them.
00:54:04.420Good. Yeah, it just makes me think, you know, maybe we can wrap up with this, but it just, it makes me think of James chapter one, verse 19.
00:54:14.440Well, we could do 19, verse 19 through 21. It says this,
00:54:18.120Know this, my beloved brothers, let every person be quick to listen or to hear and slow to speak and slow.
00:54:27.320And it's pretty interesting how speaking and anger are listed side by side, slow to speak and slow to anger as though one produces the other.
00:54:39.120Verse 20 now says, for the anger of man, a fleshly carnal anger, not a righteous indignation that a Christian man might have from time to time, but the fleshly carnal anger of man does not produce the righteousness or the holiness of God.
00:54:55.040Therefore, because of that truth, man's anger doesn't produce God's righteousness.
00:55:01.440Let us put away all filthiness and rampant wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word which is able to save your souls.
00:55:09.540And I think of the way you started answering my question in terms of LeBron James and that particular tweet.
00:55:31.340And I think part of it is it's the kind of language that we could say the nature, the quality of language, filthy lucre.
00:55:38.240And that's what James chapter 1 gets to at the end of those three verses in verse 21.0.80
00:55:43.960What it starts with in verse 19 is that it's not just the quality or the nature of the language, that it's filthy, that it's vile, that it's ignorant.
00:55:53.420but it starts in verse 19 by saying it's it's rash it's too quick it's too quick you're quick
00:56:00.360to speak um but but you should be quick to listen quick to hear uh quick to research what we might
00:56:08.760say quick to study quick to think quick you know all those kinds of things and slow to speak and
00:56:16.040i think i think in our world with with celebrities and then not just celebrity because there was a
00:56:22.860time where there were celebrities but a celebrity would have to go you know they'd have to go to
00:56:27.020some journalist you know they'd have to go you know they'd have to go to some kind of public
00:56:30.360event you know where there were news you know news anchors or news reporters and things like
00:56:34.580that some kind of press event but now you know i mean that was the whole thing with trump you know
00:56:39.520like i i appreciated a lot of his policies um but man his his twitter account got him in trouble
00:56:45.160um fairly often and and part of it was just the fact that you know the president is gonna is gonna
00:56:50.900to be making public addresses quite often but and and that's just historically that's always been
00:56:57.460the case but even more so when when that president uh doesn't need to go to the press he doesn't have
00:57:03.460to call a press conference or anything like that he doesn't have to get the cameras ready he doesn't
00:57:07.060have to put on the makeup he can literally he can be three in the morning and you know president
00:57:11.580trump's rolling over in bed and an idea just popped in my head i think i'll i'll just shoot
00:57:16.660it out there to you know 40 million people on twitter and it's like well that's i wish you
00:57:21.640wouldn't you know i prefer you just why don't you just sit on that you know just just why don't you
00:57:25.600sleep on that one let it marinate a little bit and so my whole point is just to say it's always
00:57:30.280been biblically true that um that we should be quick to listen and slow to speak because a quickness
00:57:37.780in speech lends towards a quickness um quick speech lends towards quick anger and and and man's
00:57:45.320quick hot anger does not produce the righteousness of god and so um so that's always been true
00:57:52.420biblically um but now with with just monumental celebrities coupled with social media and and
00:58:03.360an iphone in their pocket and all in technology it's just um the temptation to speak immediately
00:58:10.760is before all of us all of us and that includes you and i that includes christians and pastors i
00:58:17.160mean as a pastor there have been some times where there's a current event and i'm thinking
00:58:20.340i want to do a podcast on this like we're doing right now you know or uh where it's this the
00:58:25.700lord's day is coming something happens on saturday night it's a it's a global you know i mean or at
00:58:31.200least national event and it's like i i gotta say something on this and i think all of us just feel
00:58:37.800whether you're a pastor whether you're a christian whether you're lebron james whoever you are
00:58:41.100um all of us feel the kind of urgency that used to only a news reporter would feel you know what
00:58:48.760i mean and now it's like all of us fancy ourselves to be kind of like like you know private detectives
00:58:55.020and and you know news reporters and we all have to you know what's your statement why haven't you
00:58:59.160made a statement why don't you put a black square on your on your facebook page why don't you say
00:59:03.300something why don't you know and it's like man you know what like i don't think the bible really
00:59:07.620i don't think the bible advocates for that as a christian i feel like the bible often says
00:59:11.960why don't you not say something why don't you wait at least a few days at least let a week go by
00:59:18.400think about this pray about this let's see if some more things come to light before we cast because
00:59:24.040ultimately our statements is is our casting of judgment and i think that's what that's what's
00:59:29.300frustrating and i see guys like lebron casting a hypocritical and irresponsible judgment because
00:59:36.640that's what it is it's a judgment and in some sense it's a hit it's putting out a hit on on
00:59:41.440that that police officer but i have to look inward and i think you'll agree with it i have to look
00:59:46.320inward at the end of the day and think man like i don't have millions of fans i'm not nearly as
00:59:53.280popular as LeBron James, but I've got a few people who follow me. And how often am I tempted
00:59:59.760to make that statement about the big hot button issue that just happened less than 24 hours ago
01:00:07.000because I want to be seen. I want to be heard. I love the glory that comes from men rather than
01:00:13.760the glory that comes from God. And there is a sense of urgency. People are demanding an answer.
01:00:19.180They want to know, what does John MacArthur think about blank?
01:00:23.440You know, what is John Piper going to say about, but I think if we're wise, the Bible
01:00:30.000has answers to these things, and biblically faithful men will be able to find those answers.
01:00:35.300But sometimes they can't find them in three hours, and sometimes they don't fit into 140
01:00:51.220And that's just going to have to be sufficient.
01:00:53.440Because the Bible commands that I'm slow to speak and slow to anger.
01:00:57.940And the quick answers and quick statements and rash judgments,
01:01:01.900it produces the anger of man that doesn't lead towards the righteousness of God.
01:01:08.600I'll give you the floor as we close out here.
01:01:11.320Do you have any final thoughts or anything you want to share?
01:01:13.980Well, again, I appreciate the opportunity to be with you, Joel. It's been a joy just to get to know you, man. And I look forward to many more encounters and conversations.
01:01:25.820But as we depart, I just want people, as I said, I want to be gracious to LeBron because he needs to know the Lord.
01:01:35.800He needs to be saved. And he has such an influence on people that, again, as I said, I wish he would not have said it.
01:01:45.300But as you just said so rightly, that we need to look in, we need to look in, consider ourselves in all these matters.
01:01:54.760and continue to stand for the truth and be ready with an answer to answer the culture,
01:02:02.780to reject the ways. As Deuteronomy says, be careful, be careful in how you live and be
01:02:10.040careful that you don't forget God. I love what John MacArthur says about the culture. He says,
01:02:15.880be an expert in your Bible and you'll know how to answer the culture. And as we're departing,
01:02:23.460And I just want the listeners to know that, again, whatever is coming up, the Bible is the word of God and is the answer for everything, every ideology, every argument, everything that's coming our way, the word of God is sufficient.
01:02:41.340Every major battle, as a matter of fact, when Jesus Christ was tempted, the three words that came out of his mouth's furth is, it is written.
01:02:51.220And how much more we, the people of God, will battle against Satan, will battle against the culture and the society with, it is written.
01:03:03.760It's still sharper than any two-edged sword.
01:03:06.000And so with that said, I want the people to know that we know that we will win. The church will win, no matter how bad. I know John Owen says that, yeah, we'll suffer decay and we'll have some decline, but no one will overtake the kingdom of God.
01:03:29.780No one will ultimately overtake the kingdom of God. And so I am encouraged with that, that God is not only enough. He is all. He is all. And so I praise God. I praise God for this opportunity. I praise God for you. So thank you. Thank you.
01:03:49.620Thanks, Mark. I appreciate it. I'm grateful for you as well. And I look forward to continuing a friendship and having you back on the show, Lord willing, sometime soon. So thanks for coming on.