The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - After Covid & Wokeness, We Need 1,000’s Of New Pastors w Michael Foster

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, real quick, before we get started, I have a small request.

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00:00:17.980 All right, welcome to another episode of Theology Applied. I am your host,

00:00:21.000 Pastor Joel Webbin with Right Response Ministries. I'm excited about this episode.

00:00:24.220 This is with Michael Foster. Michael Foster, along with his co-author,

00:00:27.940 non-tenant, they wrote the book, It's Good to Be a Man. It's Good to Be a Man. It's been hovering

00:00:32.960 in that number one spot off and on within the Christian manhood section on Amazon. So it's done

00:00:39.280 really well. It's also available on the Canon Plus app. I think it's published through Canon,

00:00:44.800 so you can get a hard copy through them if that's what you want. But Michael has done a lot on

00:00:50.360 patriarchy, on biblical masculinity, and just kind of helping the church navigate out of this

00:00:56.520 feminized Christianity that we've been swimming in for decades now. And so we talk about in this

00:01:02.560 episode, not just manhood, but we talk about masculinity, courageous leadership, but we really

00:01:07.740 focus it on eldership and also the diaconate. We talk a lot about the diaconate and how to actually

00:01:14.080 define that biblically and why guys just kind of fell apart and folded like a cheap suit over the

00:01:20.100 last two and a half years with COVID and how the deck is being reshuffled. It's all of a sudden

00:01:25.800 things are getting mixed up. It's a fresh start, a new opportunity in the providence of God for a

00:01:30.420 lot of people. And so as we look to plant new churches and reorient it and reform new churches,

00:01:36.880 and we're looking for fresh, courageous, biblically faithful men to lead these churches,

00:01:42.460 what are some of the qualities, the benchmarks that men need to be aspiring towards? That's

00:01:47.880 the focus of our episode today. I think you'll enjoy it. Tune in now. Houston, we have a problem.

00:01:52.580 I repeat, we have a problem.

00:01:54.260 Our conference is about to sell out.

00:01:56.560 I mean, about to sell out.

00:01:58.360 We probably have about 75 to 100 seats left.

00:02:02.440 Our venue holds about 525 to 550 seats.

00:02:06.180 And we currently have 450 people

00:02:08.860 who are registered for this conference.

00:02:10.600 The excitement is tangible.

00:02:12.860 A lot of people registered

00:02:13.900 because they wanted to hit the early bird rate.

00:02:15.880 We're now at our normal rate, $130 for an adult,

00:02:19.320 $50 for a kid who's 11 to 17 years old.

00:02:22.580 and kids 10 and under get in free. You can bring the whole family. But the problem is not that

00:02:26.920 we're going to raise the rate again. The problem is we're going to run out of tickets and we're

00:02:31.080 going to run out pretty fast. Again, we've got about 100 seats or less. 450 people six months out

00:02:37.840 are already registered for this conference. We don't want you to miss it. So to ensure that you

00:02:43.520 get to make it to this conference, you need to register not a month from now, not a week from now,

00:02:48.600 not tomorrow, but today. You want to be there for the Theonomy and Post-Millennialism Conference,

00:02:54.640 May 5th, 6th, and 7th, with James White, Joe Boot, Gary DeMar, Dale Partridge, and yours truly,

00:03:01.760 Joel Webbin. Go to RightResponseConference.com. Again, that's RightResponseConference.com.

00:03:08.280 It will sell out very soon. Applying God's Word to every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied.

00:03:18.600 All right. Welcome to another episode of Theology Applied. I am your host, Pastor Joel Webin

00:03:25.040 with Right Response Ministries. And in this episode, I'm pleased to be joined with Michael

00:03:29.160 Foster, who you probably know best as the author of It's Good to Be a Man. Michael,

00:03:34.660 thanks for coming on the show. Yeah, thanks for having me again.

00:03:37.720 Absolutely. All right. So last time you were with us, I think you, I told you offline,

00:03:41.420 we were talking, you were one of our first guests. You didn't know me from Adam. And we had,

00:03:45.280 I think on YouTube, we had probably at that time, maybe 1,500 subscribers. And now by God's grace,

00:03:50.960 we have about 33,000. And so hopefully some more people see this episode and find it beneficial

00:03:56.620 and helpful in their walk with Christ. But what we wanted to talk about in this episode

00:04:00.900 is leadership, masculine, godly, Christ-like leadership, especially in the ecclesiastical

00:04:08.080 sphere, church, leadership, eldership. We could talk about the diaconate some, but

00:04:12.740 you and I have both agreed in some of our conversations together that the game has

00:04:18.480 changed in the last two and a half years. There are things that we may not have considered when

00:04:23.440 we were trying to pick elders, when we were looking at ordination, when we were thinking

00:04:27.540 about church unity and potential splits and division and all those kinds of things. It seems

00:04:32.700 like, at least for me, and I know for you also, I'm looking for some things that I wasn't necessarily

00:04:38.960 looking for, um, you know, three years ago when I'm thinking about, uh, eldership and those kinds

00:04:44.380 of things. So, uh, what, what are some of your thoughts that help us get started? Sure. So when

00:04:49.460 we think about masculine leadership in the home, in the church and society, you can kind of look

00:04:57.280 at it through a triad of authority, responsibility, and ability. Okay. So, um, authority is just the

00:05:06.020 ability to exercise a god-given command right god's god's told a guy this is your job to leave

00:05:13.400 your household and pastor it's your job to preach and administer the sacraments a magistrate here's

00:05:18.780 how you punish evildoers and praise the good whatever um so you actually have the authority

00:05:24.660 to do that it's it's within your realm and then responsibility means you have to do it so you have

00:05:29.560 these responsibilities so we always want to keep authority and responsibility at parity so we've

00:05:34.620 kind of me and my co-author of It's Good to Be a Man, we've criticized servant leadership because

00:05:40.980 a lot of times what we say is it gives men heavy responsibilities without authority, right?

00:05:46.280 Authority without responsibility leads to tyranny. Responsibility without authority

00:05:53.900 leads to slavery, right? But that's kind of like, those are important categories to have, 0.99

00:06:01.560 But we've added a third one, which is ability.

00:06:05.680 And you can just think of it as leadership, but it's the actual ability to execute your responsibilities, right, to get it done.

00:06:14.860 And so I think a lot of us have rethought through authority and responsibilities.

00:06:22.580 Thankfully, we have confessions.

00:06:23.960 We have all sorts of awesome church documents like you're 1689.

00:06:28.360 I'm a Westminster guy.

00:06:30.840 We're very close on what the responsibilities of pastors, elders, and deacons are.

00:06:37.320 I think leadership, though, the ability question is what we've had to reevaluate.

00:06:43.680 A lot of these guys that were in the pastorate during the last couple of years with Black Lives Matter, the George Floyd nonsense, all the COVID shutdowns, the pandemic.

00:06:56.760 A lot of these guys, their ability was for existing systems. 0.82

00:07:02.040 For systems, they're really a managerial class.

00:07:04.980 And what managers, they're very important people in any organization.

00:07:08.920 What they do is manage a system that already exists.

00:07:11.880 They didn't build it.

00:07:13.060 They just execute.

00:07:14.400 They administrate it more than anything.

00:07:16.360 They oversee it.

00:07:18.160 Those guys play a very key role when there's a time of stability in a company.

00:07:23.440 Your company grows, and then you add kind of this middle management role.

00:07:30.240 Well, a lot of our pastors had a sort of middle management approach to ministry and whatever.

00:07:37.840 And they're like super easy going.

00:07:39.280 They want to keep conflict at a low.

00:07:41.200 They deal with everything kind of through PR tactics.

00:07:44.160 And then suddenly it all kind of blows up.

00:07:48.820 And people that they never thought would challenge them are challenging them.

00:07:51.300 people that have been in the churches for years that's run the sound ministry the two oldest

00:07:54.360 ministry you know founding members are saying what's going on why are we closing down worship

00:07:58.440 you know why are we uh enforcing masks on unhealthy people um why are we repenting of racism we're not

00:08:06.300 racist why are we why are we apologizing for being white like white's not white's uh a secondary

00:08:12.080 biological marker it's not a sin okay right so they're asking these questions and these managers

00:08:17.260 There's like they're only good when things are stable.

00:08:20.160 Things are suddenly unstable and they kind of freak out.

00:08:24.200 And a lot of them became tyrants overnight because they didn't they weren't really prepared for it.

00:08:30.420 And they're not good at moving on their feet.

00:08:32.860 They're not good at dealing with crisis.

00:08:35.600 They really they can say when their authorities question, they say, hey, this is just this is how things are done around here or whatever.

00:08:42.660 And they can kind of cite the system.

00:08:44.820 Well, now the whole system's broken.

00:08:46.440 you've been telling people how important it is to attend church your entire ministry that's right

00:08:50.960 and now you're telling them not to come to church and people are saying wait a sec i thought we took

00:08:55.080 membership vows part of it is to prioritize the importance of the church and now you're telling

00:09:00.360 us not to come and we want to worship god and you know on whose authority do you do this well the

00:09:07.060 government told us we can't well what's the government we don't declare war the government

00:09:10.580 doesn't tell us uh that we can't worship right well romans 13 like what come again and so this

00:09:16.680 got nuts that's been the last couple of years where uh and also those guys who are faithful men

00:09:23.560 but they they got canceled they got canceled hard right their their reputation got dragged

00:09:30.520 through the mud it hurt their marriage hurt their kids they lost their jobs they got they got fired

00:09:35.400 And they spent their entire life being kind of seminary trained.

00:09:40.100 And now they're without churches and people call them authoritarian or rebellious or whatever.

00:09:46.360 And they're trying to figure out what to do.

00:09:48.420 So we're in this kind of new realm where managerial class of pastors, they're not going to work for a while at least.

00:09:59.200 And we've got guys that are good, bold risk takers, but they're risk taking in still a more stable time.

00:10:05.400 Where now, if you take that risk, you really are, you might lose it all.

00:10:10.600 And so I think it's a requirement to think through the pastoral ministry, like our candidates, multiple streams of income, anti-fragility.

00:10:23.140 How do we stay bold but not wreck our household?

00:10:26.900 These are, this is the new world for us.

00:10:29.420 It's an awesome world because now it makes us rethink things.

00:10:31.920 We don't just we're allowed to question these things and come back at it again and say, OK, what's what's the wise application of these biblical principles?

00:10:39.920 Right. Yeah, completely agree. Well said.

00:10:42.620 You know, as you were talking about, you know, a lot of these guys in the pastorate are really, you know, managerial guys and not necessarily courageous Cromwell leadership kind of guys.

00:10:53.000 It makes me think I think part of it is because we've gotten the deaconate wrong.

00:10:56.820 I've done a lot of study on, you know, what is a deacon?

00:10:59.580 Because for a lot of guys, even within the Reformed world, a deacon is basically you

00:11:04.420 have areas of volunteer service, you know, primarily on the Lord's Day, you know, so

00:11:10.940 you got somebody working in children's.

00:11:13.000 And I know that you and I are both, you know, we're both family integrated with our worship.

00:11:16.480 But if you have a children's ministry, you got people volunteering there, people volunteering

00:11:20.240 with set up, especially if it's portable church, you've got parking assistance and all that

00:11:24.380 kind of stuff.

00:11:24.780 And then when you think of the deaconate, it's basically been defined as, um, there

00:11:29.200 are volunteers and those are members of the church.

00:11:31.500 And then there are heads of volunteers, like a lead volunteer, and that's a deacon, right?

00:11:37.060 So, uh, what is a deacon?

00:11:38.860 Uh, well, a deacon is not just a parking assistant, but the lead parking assistant.

00:11:43.380 He's over the parking assistant team.

00:11:45.600 And, uh, and you know, when I think of like Acts chapter six, where we kind of, you know,

00:11:49.380 where the deaconate is coined for us, um, you know, still to this day, you'll see like

00:11:53.680 Deacon's Food Drive at the Episcopalian Church. And what they've done is they've taken the

00:11:58.640 principle that's provided for us in a descriptive text with a specific case study, and they've made

00:12:04.820 that case study the headline, the principle. So deacons give food. Whereas I would say,

00:12:09.680 no, the principle is deacons alleviate the burden on the elders of the church so that they can

00:12:17.460 dedicate their time chiefly to the preaching and teaching of God's word and study and prayer,

00:12:22.080 And prayer actually being first listed in that order.

00:12:24.900 So prayer, preaching, and study.

00:12:27.440 And so the deacons are doing a lot of stuff.

00:12:29.280 And one of the things, it's like when you think of the church in Jerusalem and just the number, the sheer number of people that were added to the faith at the day of Pentecost when Peter is preaching in Acts chapter 2.

00:12:39.480 And you think about that church in Jerusalem, it was likely a very large church.

00:12:43.900 And this sharp dispute arises not between just two individuals.

00:12:47.720 It's not just like so-and-so needs food.

00:12:50.800 And we need someone to carry a bowl of soup.

00:12:52.840 It's not seven men filled with the Holy Spirit and endowed with wisdom so that they can carry

00:12:58.420 soup without spilling it, you know, or so that they can make really great sandwiches

00:13:02.380 or they can get the right ratio of peanut butter and jelly.

00:13:05.220 No, these are guys who are, they're handling, it's conflict mediation.

00:13:10.080 It is what we often think of as pastoral ministry.

00:13:13.820 And it's not just between two families or two individuals.

00:13:16.340 It's the Hellenistic Jews, you know, and the Hebraic Jews.

00:13:19.660 And so you have two whole sects of the church that are arguing, that are factuous and divided because the Hellenistic Jews feel as though their widows are being overlooked in the daily distribution.

00:13:31.220 The people doing the daily distribution, preparing the food, serving the food, that's not Philip and Stephen, you know, and the other five.

00:13:39.360 These guys are going to, they're going to solve this conflict.

00:13:42.340 They're going to manage.

00:13:43.120 And so what I'm getting at is I actually think that part of the problem is we've had a lot of people in the position of elder in the church that actually biblically should have just been deacons.

00:13:55.760 We've so lowered the bar of elder, and in order for that to logically make sense, we've also necessarily lowered the bar of deacon to where a deacon in the average, and I'm talking about Reformed Presbyterian, Reformed Baptist, a lot of their deacons would just be faithful church members.

00:14:11.760 I think by a biblical definition, and a lot of their elders actually should be deacons.

00:14:17.340 And I know you and I both as confessional guys and patriarchal guys, we would hold to

00:14:20.900 a male diaconate.

00:14:22.280 But these guys, my point is when people think of the pastor, 1 Peter chapter 5, I charge

00:14:28.740 the elders among you as a fellow elder, shepherd the flock of God.

00:14:32.280 People, all that would say yes and amen.

00:14:34.340 If I said, what is a pastor?

00:14:35.440 And people say, well, pastors should shepherd.

00:14:37.460 And I'd say, yes, but here's what just happened.

00:14:41.260 We sound like we're on the same page.

00:14:43.280 We're not.

00:14:43.680 Because what you just did, very likely, is you eisegeted into the word shepherding, that

00:14:48.720 shepherding exclusively equates to interpersonal pastoral counsel.

00:14:54.440 Whereas I would say, give me the verse in the Bible that says that a minister who's

00:15:01.180 administering the ordinary means of grace on the Lord's day, preaching, teaching, administering

00:15:06.080 the sacraments, make me a biblical argument how that's something other than shepherding.

00:15:10.520 90% of the elders shepherding, I think, is, Lord, yes, pastors counsel interpersonally.

00:15:16.200 But a lot of those things, actually, those managerial mediating conflict, marriage counseling,

00:15:22.000 which that's pretty much what marriage counseling always is, is some kind of conflict and going

00:15:26.480 in and providing counsel and mediating conflict and those kinds of things and seeking reconciliation

00:15:30.520 and resolution.

00:15:32.740 I think that's what guys like Stephen and Philip, that's what they were doing.

00:15:37.700 and not just between a marriage with two individuals, but two whole groups that could

00:15:41.640 have represented hundreds, if not even perhaps thousands of people in this fairly large church

00:15:47.380 in Jerusalem. And so my point is, I think we had a lot of guys that really, biblically,

00:15:52.180 I would argue, measure up as deacons, but serving as elders. And so when there actually was a call

00:15:59.640 for courageous leadership and wisdom and discernment and like the sons of Issachar,

00:16:05.020 are knowing the times and which direction to go, deacons don't do that.

00:16:09.380 And if you have a bunch of pastors that are actually really just deacons, then the church is in trouble.

00:16:14.780 What do you think about that?

00:16:16.300 Yeah, I mean, I think it's true.

00:16:18.080 I think we just basically had a lot of people who are officers in the church that shouldn't have been.

00:16:23.360 Yeah.

00:16:24.180 A ton of them.

00:16:24.960 So, I mean, one of the key things in any officer, whether it's a deacon or an elder slash pastor, is the ability to keep your nerve, to make sound judgments, and to make them on an important timeline, not an urgent, right?

00:16:45.600 can deal with it in the right way and uh i feel like my job one of my biggest jobs as an elder

00:16:51.340 is to is to stay uh cool and calm be the calmest man in the room when it comes to these things

00:16:58.780 and not overreact and that's what i saw a lot of people doing is they um people were trying to

00:17:06.160 put out fires instead of like well maybe let it burn for a little bit let's figure out what's

00:17:10.800 going on here uh so i to get to your point with deacons is that um so deacons they are not just

00:17:18.300 the ones that uh hand out the bread but they're the ones that were figuring out how to do this

00:17:23.040 in such a way that it would not uh continue this division but would lead to real conflict

00:17:28.280 uh solution and uh we look for a lot of things in our deacons we want them to be we want them

00:17:35.020 to love the friendless we want them to be very wise but the thing is a deacon has to be discerning

00:17:40.320 and cool headed because what makes people more upset than dealing with money right with benevolence

00:17:45.960 if you have someone that has some need why do they have the need right what's going on in their

00:17:50.500 marriage what's what's you have to ask those questions um because we're not just writing out

00:17:55.300 checks and if we have people that come to our church and they ask for help we'll ask them why

00:18:01.380 haven't you uh what is your home church doing about it well of course they don't have a home

00:18:05.900 church right this is part of the process and uh so we have to have guys that can make really good

00:18:11.900 calm decisions and not allow the sort of intense i need help right now uh emotional pressure

00:18:21.380 manipulation causing them to make bad decisions same thing with pastors during a 2020 uh we'd say

00:18:28.400 well there's there's people that are really concerned about folks not wearing masks you mean

00:18:32.420 five people a lot of times it was just like a small amount of the church well because there's

00:18:37.060 some small amount of the church that's upset now the pastor is going to enforce uh their desires

00:18:41.540 on everybody right and these are guys that just can't take any conflict they can't take any

00:18:46.040 pressure they can't take um any any whining at all just a little bit of whining and they're like

00:18:50.980 well we have to uh i remember when i was a young minister and i was serving as a pastor i said well

00:18:56.520 you know there's some people concerned about this and he said who what's their names that's what he

00:19:00.900 said to me and then and then i said well this guy and that guy he said that guy's concerned about

00:19:06.660 everything and we can talk about the other one but it was just kind of funny there are some people

00:19:11.420 that are concerned about this is what i said well there's two people and one who complains about

00:19:16.640 everything and you'll hear people talk this way in the ministry a lot like oh wow we got a divide

00:19:22.640 in the church there's no divide in the church there's always some level of malcontents there's

00:19:27.920 always some level of people that are going to be contrarians or whatever. And we have these guys

00:19:34.080 that can't live in tension, that can't make good decisions. And then, of course, their career,

00:19:41.300 the vocational aspect of ministry, which is good, but their career was tied up with

00:19:45.840 whether they would be faithful or not. Basically, don't be faithful, keep your job. Be faithful,

00:19:52.100 probably lose your job right and and so uh we we saw failures on deacons and elders massively and

00:19:59.480 now we're trying to get the right the right people on the bus as they say and find the right seat for

00:20:03.960 them right right so i know a lot of pastors who really should have just been seminary professors

00:20:10.520 or should have been authors whatever wonderful minds um but just not cut out for the pastoral

00:20:18.660 ministry like if you're given to anxiety don't go into the pastoral ministry it's not for you

00:20:24.440 the pastoral ministry is being surrounded by conflict all the time and being able to whistle

00:20:29.120 on your way home and I just closed it out I don't think about it I keep my life segmented it's like

00:20:35.640 all right it's time to deal with this thing I'll go deal with that and but I'm not letting all

00:20:39.420 those things control me and anymore when I look I look for three things I look for a man of character

00:20:45.000 a competent man in his skills.

00:20:46.980 And then I look for a guy that has the right chemistry when I'm trying to get

00:20:51.160 him on my eldership. So we all, we kind of gel.

00:20:53.680 And one thing I want is someone that stays calm under fire.

00:20:58.540 And I remember when East river was growing so quick and we went from like

00:21:02.400 zero to 300 in 14 months or whatever it was.

00:21:08.060 There was one point where a guy was telling me a good new guy,

00:21:11.300 he wasn't an elder, but he was telling me, 0.98

00:21:13.740 all these balls are getting dropped, right? 0.96

00:21:15.940 All these balls are getting dropped.

00:21:17.840 And I'm picking them up and I'm getting them overwhelmed. 0.59

00:21:21.420 And I said, dude, who told you to pick those balls up, right?

00:21:24.700 You can't drop a ball you didn't pick up.

00:21:26.980 We're 14 months old.

00:21:28.020 It's all right.

00:21:28.640 It's okay.

00:21:29.520 Like someone else will have to step up and do it.

00:21:31.500 We'll do the main thing.

00:21:32.480 We'll work our way down to get to those things.

00:21:34.700 But we're going to prioritize and it's all good.

00:21:38.160 And what is more main than keeping your churches open?

00:21:41.820 And what's more main than worshiping?

00:21:44.040 What's more main than calling out, you want to protect lives?

00:21:47.020 Well, people's livelihoods are being destroyed during that time.

00:21:49.500 And we saw a lot of pastors that rather just have an easy, cozy life than go to war for the people in their congregation that feed them and take care of them.

00:21:57.620 Right. No, I completely agree.

00:21:59.020 And I think part of it, people don't think of it like this, but you're talking about not being given over to anxiety and fearfulness and having this composed demeanor in the midst of conflict.

00:22:11.820 in the midst of stress and challenge and difficulty.

00:22:15.020 And that comes from faith and it's faith in Christ.

00:22:19.320 But then by virtue of faith in Christ,

00:22:21.960 part of that is faith in the way that Christ works within his people.

00:22:27.240 And one of the chief ways that Christ works within his people is on the Lord's day.

00:22:33.000 And I think that was part of the problem is that what we saw with COVID is 0.94

00:22:36.420 a lot of, it's not just a lot of Christians,

00:22:39.420 but a lot of pastors don't actually believe what the Bible says. They just don't. We got to see

00:22:44.720 what people actually believe by virtue of what actions they took. Not what they said, but what

00:22:50.880 they did. That reflected for us their actual convictions, what they actually believe. And so

00:22:57.000 a lot of pastors shutting down their church, in a sense, saying that what happens on the Lord's

00:23:03.740 day is not that significant. And the arguments that I was making within about two weeks of

00:23:09.100 COVID and writing articles about this and getting in trouble and talking to my church members. And

00:23:13.660 about two-thirds of them, I was in California at the time, about two-thirds of them agreeing,

00:23:17.560 one-third of them disagreeing. And this is before John MacArthur made it cool to open up your church.

00:23:22.680 And so guys were pointing at MacArthur to disagree with me. And little did I know that one of my

00:23:28.600 chief allies in disagreeing with MacArthur would be future MacArthur. Nobody disagrees with MacArthur

00:23:33.240 better than MacArthur. And so I just needed to wait a few weeks for him to do that. But the point

00:23:37.600 is, you know, one of the things that I was trying to use to persuade people in the Word

00:23:41.860 of God is persuading them that Christ, who is always present, and this is the way that

00:23:46.400 I word it, Christ, who is always present with all believers by virtue of the indwelling

00:23:51.100 ministry of the Holy Spirit, He promises us, even though He's always present, He promises

00:23:56.820 to be uniquely present on the Lord's Day when the church gathers together, that on the first

00:24:03.380 day of the week, when the church, the saints gathered together for the ordinary means of

00:24:07.820 grace to be administered in preaching, publicly preaching the word, praying the word, singing the

00:24:12.960 word in hymns and psalms and spiritual songs, and seeing, S-E-E-I-N-G, seeing the word in the only

00:24:18.520 two images that we've been prescribed, being the Lord's Supper and baptism, Christ promises to be

00:24:23.600 in our midst in a unique way. So Christ is always present. And I think that's part of the reason

00:24:28.620 why pastors and Christians, they were way too comfortable with letting the Lord's Day gathering

00:24:34.800 go because they're like, well, God's omnipresent. Christ is always with us, you know, and we can

00:24:39.360 record our sermons and live stream them on Sunday. You know, the pastor's preaching behind the pulpit

00:24:44.500 in an empty sanctuary, but everybody's in their living room, you know, listening and watching.

00:24:49.700 And we can select some songs that families can sing together and just thinking that, you know,

00:24:54.500 what's the difference? And then these same pastors, the hypocrisy is overwhelming. Now,

00:25:01.960 writing articles and stuff about the importance of the gathering and why you need to be in church.

00:25:06.540 It's like, you just got done telling your church that they don't need to be in church. What happens

00:25:11.400 here is overall, it is absolutely insignificant. It is absolutely unnecessary. You told them that

00:25:18.720 by your actions and now by your words, you're trying to tell them otherwise. They don't believe

00:25:23.140 you. I don't believe you. You shouldn't believe you, you know, like you're a hypocrite. And so

00:25:28.140 my point is, you know, if we actually believe, you know, you were saying, give it time, be patient. 0.97

00:25:33.320 Who told you to pick up all those balls? You know, the church is, it's only been 14 months and,

00:25:38.580 you know, I've been having similar conversations. So we planted in April, first Sunday of April,

00:25:43.040 last year, 2021. And so our church is 18 months old, meaning that the longest that anyone could

00:25:49.400 be a member of Covenant Bible Church in Central Texas, north of Austin, where I pastor, the

00:25:53.720 longest standing member we have is somebody who's been in the church for 18 months. That's the max.

00:26:00.400 And I'm preaching post-millennialism. I'm preaching patriarchy. I'm preaching

00:26:05.760 general equity theonomy. And I'm reforming. I'm preaching the doctrines of grace. And guys are

00:26:12.600 finding us through podcasts and YouTube and social media, and they're coming. And I've had

00:26:17.820 some members come to me and express their concerns. And I think it's well-intended,

00:26:23.660 well-meaning, and I don't even think they're wrong about the concerns they have. But some

00:26:28.120 of the more mature members in the church have come and said, Pastor, you know, I think some

00:26:31.960 of these guys are attracted to biblical patriarchy, but they don't actually know what it looks

00:26:37.060 like on the ground. They don't know what that means practically. And they're showing up and

00:26:40.580 dragging their wife with them to your church because they're attracted. They're watching

00:26:43.980 you on YouTube, they love it. But then they show up, their wife's not loving it. And it's actually

00:26:49.200 producing, you know, before things get better, they're actually getting worse. And so it's

00:26:52.680 producing some of your preaching and videos and stuff is producing conflict in some of these

00:26:57.320 marriages. And, you know, it's awesome to see the church grow in 18 months. We've gone from 20 to

00:27:02.400 about 130. It's awesome to see the church grow overnight so quickly. But man, I'm really concerned

00:27:08.940 that there's a storm brewing. And that's what anxiety is, right? Even if it's not real,

00:27:15.600 it's this constant sense of impending doom, even if there is no doom. And so what I've told these

00:27:20.740 guys is like, okay, so what member, name them, right? So exactly what you said, that's the first

00:27:24.460 question. So who are these people? Can you put a name behind it? And of course, without fail,

00:27:30.980 it's like two or three couples, not 20 or 30, but two or three couples. And then those two or three

00:27:36.480 couples, I can say, okay, so this is what we can do. Logically, the longest that they could have

00:27:39.740 been members in our church is 18 months. That's the max. Now the couples you just listed have

00:27:44.240 been members in our church from three to nine months. So this is what I want to say. Let's let

00:27:49.900 the means of grace do their work. Just wait. Just give it time. Do we actually believe that Christ

00:27:56.740 is spiritually present when the church gathers together and that grace is being imputed,

00:28:04.100 that people are receiving the grace of God through his word preached. And as we charge

00:28:08.660 and address one another with Psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, do we believe that Christ

00:28:13.580 is uniquely present? Is it a mere memorial, our view of the Lord's Supper, or is Christ

00:28:18.040 spiritually present with the Lord's Supper? And is he actually nourishing his sheep directly from

00:28:23.100 his hand? And these kinds of things that these guys, you know, some of these guys just got

00:28:26.600 baptized six months ago. Let's wait, let's see what happens here. And yeah, we'll provide

00:28:32.000 pastoral counseling. But not every five seconds, not every 15 minutes, let's wait, let's see what

00:28:37.980 the Lord does. And I think a lot of people have, they're coming around to that and saying, oh yeah,

00:28:44.080 we do believe in the Lord's day and the ordinary means of grace. Because I've used that against

00:28:49.740 people in a loving pastoral way, but just saying, look, part of why you're attracted to our church

00:28:54.080 is because we're saying that the church, the way that it responded to COVID was wrong.

00:28:57.540 okay so so you're saying that the church gathering matters okay so so act like it matters why does it

00:29:03.980 matter it because it does something god is doing something and if god is doing something um can can

00:29:10.400 we be patient can we can we let him do something so no i think um i think what's happened is uh the

00:29:18.280 overton window you know this idea of what is and isn't acceptable to talk about has shifted and

00:29:23.560 there's a lot of people like a lot of folks in my church probably thought the gospel coalition was

00:29:28.460 really good just a couple years ago right right and um and our church is mostly here by word of

00:29:35.540 mouth it it wasn't really directly connected to my online presence um it was pretty impressive

00:29:40.760 folks didn't find out that i was doing all this other stuff until sometimes months into the church

00:29:46.180 way um and so in other words these are just kind of what we would call normies waking up

00:29:51.860 and and anytime you uh wake to something there can be kind of a cage stage and finding a new

00:29:59.140 balance so we have a lot of people who are thinking about things they've never thought about

00:30:03.520 before right i mean part of the problem is that most american churches have never really taken

00:30:07.800 the time to develop a doctrine of the relationship between the church and the magistrate and it showed

00:30:12.840 Right. Right. And so now folks are thinking and we're seeing like a lot of like hard swings, you know, guys that weren't leading their house now are patriarchal, but they still haven't developed ability.

00:30:23.800 They're just claiming their authority and they felt the responsibility.

00:30:28.300 Now they're claiming the authority. And now it's like, well, OK, level out, develop the ability.

00:30:32.220 We have church members that always want to be in kind of outrage stage.

00:30:38.320 They're right to be outraged by all these abuses,

00:30:40.080 but now you have to kind of balance out, like you said,

00:30:43.420 get into that normal rhythm of life.

00:30:45.540 You realize that your old rhythm of life was soothing you into a sort of sleep.

00:30:51.160 We're not trying to soothe you in the sleep.

00:30:52.560 We're trying to stabilize you into, you know,

00:30:56.000 like week after week after week.

00:30:58.140 I think I've missed church 15 times since I've been saved in 1997.

00:31:06.620 Right.

00:31:06.720 And when I became a new believer, I just thought, you know, I'm just never going to miss church because I figured no matter what, that would keep me accountable to God.

00:31:15.680 And it's kind of funny how people think that we'll keep you accountable to God as your personal devotions.

00:31:22.280 Right.

00:31:22.540 And as if like back in the early days of the church, everyone has their own Bible and they're going out to read, you know, 15 minutes.

00:31:29.560 Of course, they would memorize this stuff and they would sing it.

00:31:33.060 They'd revise it in their head.

00:31:34.600 They had it in their head, no doubt.

00:31:36.720 But mainly it was that public gathering where they're having the word preached.

00:31:40.200 And what we need now is what we don't want is sycophants, that fanboys that come to our church to hear us hit our same kind of points,

00:31:50.460 like men should be leaders and the church shouldn't be weak or whatever.

00:31:55.320 All those things are true, but I'm going to preach to the sin of the people in front of me.

00:32:00.240 So I'm not there to beat up on them per se, but I am there to help them mortify their sin. 0.76

00:32:05.780 And I think some people come to churches of those of us that have an influence through the Internet and they come there like people come to my church and think it's going to be the masculinity church. 0.61

00:32:15.740 That's all we talk about. But it's not.

00:32:17.860 We exposit the entirety of Scripture and we think every word spoken out of the mouth of God is something that matters and needs to be given attention.

00:32:25.900 So when we don't hide from it, we speak to the issues of the day. 0.99

00:32:30.500 But a big part is a pastor having the guts like I called out QAnon from my pulpit. 0.96

00:32:35.780 I didn't care about QAnon. It didn't matter to me. It seemed like this weird thing. 1.00

00:32:40.320 You know, I, you know, it's rare that I want to talk about gospel coalition was acting like it was a really big deal.

00:32:46.340 I didn't I didn't buy that at all. But I got to tell you, after Trump lost the election, I had some really sober friends like totally go down the QAnon rabbit hole. 0.51

00:32:58.820 And what bothered me about it was that it was starting to get into the prophetic realm, right, where it's basically it was like charismatic prophecies, but in political language.

00:33:13.520 And so, you know, really, Trump is really ruined and reigning.

00:33:17.320 This is all part of this.

00:33:18.780 He's going to like have these tribunals and all this stuff.

00:33:22.300 And what would remind me is the prophets in Jeremiah 28 and where they're like, look, you're not going to be in Babylon.

00:33:29.220 You're not going to stay in exile. Within a year, we're going to break his yoke. Right.

00:33:32.880 And this is all this big show. Jeremiah is like, no, no, you're staying in.

00:33:37.800 You're doing your 70 years. It's happening. And these guys are kind of preaching this.

00:33:43.800 You know, Joe Biden's really not going to be a president. Maybe he's not. Right.

00:33:48.240 But, but, but he is, he's got the name.

00:33:53.040 And so I called that out.

00:33:54.460 I called it out because I didn't want to be owned by anybody.

00:33:56.860 I don't want to be owned by the commies and I don't want to be owned by a 0.97

00:33:59.980 lunch and nut job. So we lost three or four families. I didn't like, 1.00

00:34:03.420 I didn't make it very personal, but I, you know, we're, we're,

00:34:07.040 we're representatives of Jesus and our job is to call out sin and go after

00:34:12.560 truth wherever it is.

00:34:15.020 And that's our job in the pulpit to deal with the sheep in front of us.

00:34:18.240 And so some of these guys are coming to these churches and they they're kind of finding a new equilibrium.

00:34:25.780 And so everything's being reset right now.

00:34:28.380 Like there's not there's not a single trustworthy denomination.

00:34:31.940 Right. There's bad SBC churches. There's bad PCA churches. 1.00

00:34:35.740 There's some pretty weak CRC churches out there.

00:34:38.760 Tons of bad Baptist churches, you know, evangelical, free, whatever.

00:34:42.300 There's not like one true layup right now.

00:34:45.440 Now, I would think, I'd say my denomination on whole really is broadly reformed and not woke at all.

00:34:52.740 But, you know, do they still really minister to the flock the way they should?

00:35:00.020 You know, I can't say for sure.

00:35:01.900 But it's a rough time and everything's being reset.

00:35:05.920 So we are, I think the great reset is a blessing from the Lord if we think about it the right way.

00:35:11.040 We're seeing our ecclesiological priorities and affiliations, friendship, allies, all that be reset right now.

00:35:20.520 The leadership is being reset.

00:35:22.120 They're like, you know, who cares about Matt Chandler anymore?

00:35:25.460 Very few people.

00:35:26.700 And think of he was a superstar in the evangelical world just until a couple of months ago.

00:35:32.220 But he was on the downside already.

00:35:34.740 You know, I remember when Russell Moore was patriarchal.

00:35:37.020 Right, right.

00:35:37.700 I remember him being on nine marks and pushing back on the word

00:35:43.500 complimentarian and saying how it's a bad word.

00:35:46.540 And he thought patriarchy was better.

00:35:48.440 It was crazy, man.

00:35:49.620 That was like Russell Moore.

00:35:50.820 I remember that.

00:35:52.280 And where's CJ Mahaney, Mark Dever.

00:35:55.040 Where's he at now?

00:35:55.940 They kind of went a little soft and weird on things. 0.96

00:35:59.300 Russell Moore is a snake.

00:36:02.820 And he's done such a flip flop.

00:36:04.660 you have just to question everything he's ever been involved with at this point yeah it's so

00:36:09.480 it's so radical it makes no sense all those guys are gone or people have woke to them

00:36:15.760 and there's kind of not been much in the minute there's not been so there's this huge vacuum

00:36:21.620 that's being filled right now and so i think it's making us rethink all this stuff which is wonderful

00:36:27.040 praise the lord yeah i agree um yeah no i i like what you said in terms of you know i think a lot

00:36:33.180 of times people are attracted when it comes to guys who have some kind of social media presence

00:36:37.880 and platform. They've written a book like you, so they're an author, they're a podcaster,

00:36:42.340 YouTuber, whatever it might be, conference circuit, speaker. One of the things that Christians like,

00:36:47.880 everybody likes this, but just something that's innate to humanity is we like to decry the sins

00:36:54.600 of others, right? And so we like a guy who's going to get up there and tell it like it is.

00:36:59.120 um but if we're honest we like him to tell it like it is uh in regards to our opponents um in

00:37:05.460 regards to their sin over there and and i think that you know sometimes um what people struggle

00:37:10.560 with when they actually show up in flesh and blood to a church like yours a church like mine

00:37:15.440 is um that you know on sunday morning yeah like there is a prophetic function of the church where

00:37:20.660 we we cry out to kings and kingdoms and say um it is not lawful like john the baptist you know it's

00:37:25.800 like, it is not lawful for you to have your brother's wife when he calls out Herod and

00:37:32.000 saying, the law of God is eternal and it is binding on all people in all places and all

00:37:37.060 times.

00:37:37.380 It's not just that God has his moral law for his people, but for all people.

00:37:41.760 And so King Jesus is king and he is your king and you have a moral obligation to submit 0.95

00:37:48.300 to his kingly rule. 1.00

00:37:50.420 And so that is a part of preaching. 0.90

00:37:52.640 That's a part of the church.

00:37:53.660 And I do that in my preaching quite regularly.

00:37:56.760 But that's not all of my preaching.

00:37:58.540 In fact, that can't even really be the bulk of my preaching.

00:38:01.380 The bulk of my preaching is I'm not preaching to a bunch of goats, and I'm not even preaching

00:38:06.940 to a bunch of wolves.

00:38:08.320 I'm preaching to God's sheep.

00:38:10.620 I'm feeding sheep.

00:38:12.500 That's 1 Peter 5, shepherd the flock of God among you, right?

00:38:17.060 Not just the flock of God that you'll never meet on the other side, you know, in New Zealand

00:38:20.400 who subscribe to your YouTube channel.

00:38:22.580 I'm grateful for those people, but that's not, as a local pastor, that's not somebody that I'm

00:38:28.080 actually held accountable for their soul, keeping watch over their soul. And so when people show up

00:38:34.400 to our actual churches in the flesh, we're not just, they're not showing up to, I think sometimes

00:38:41.480 people think they're going to be showing up and we're going to be like a gladiator in the arena 0.98

00:38:46.300 and we're going to have this showdown fighting Joe Biden and we're going to slit his throat

00:38:51.340 or something, you know, and they're going to get to just applaud. And then they show up and we're 0.93

00:38:55.320 using that double-edged sword, the word of God and exegeting it and, and heralding God's truths

00:39:00.160 and actually cutting them to the heart, you know, and, and, and then all of a sudden they're upset

00:39:06.200 about that. You know, and so I, I think that, yeah, right now God is shaking things up. And,

00:39:11.380 and I think that, you know, one of the things that's so, so lacking is, is balance. Pastor,

00:39:17.780 you know because a lot of these guys i i think you know there's a lot of we lost like half of

00:39:22.240 evangelicalism maybe more than half of evangelicalism we lost them to civil tyranny

00:39:27.280 and crt right like wokeness and tyranny and and all the and it just turns out they were just

00:39:33.380 democrats and then some of these guys like i'm not exaggerating i mean timothy keller is a

00:39:36.840 registered democrat mark devers a registered uh democrat and an article just dropped you know

00:39:41.600 just even a few weeks ago about, um, this, uh, this politician who's a member at Timothy

00:39:47.420 Keller's church who got a perfect score, um, by from Planned Parenthood, you know, and, uh,

00:39:52.720 and, and the person, you know, they interviewed him and the person's talking about how much they

00:39:55.780 love, uh, their church and they love their pastor, Timothy Keller. And I'm thinking like somebody

00:39:59.480 like that could never, like they couldn't, they, they literally would not be able to stomach my

00:40:03.960 preaching. You know what I mean? Like they would, they would be, um, revolt revolting. They, they

00:40:08.820 would be like trying to hold back vomit, you know, as I'm preaching. And if they did somehow get

00:40:14.540 through it, you know, and pulled the wool over my eyes and became a member, the moment that we

00:40:19.280 became aware of that, they would be under church discipline. And, you know, so, you know, but my

00:40:24.360 point is that like, you know, over half the church discredited itself and it really is disqualified.

00:40:29.920 And I'm talking about leaders, I'm talking about pastors. And then the good guys, you know, if we

00:40:34.500 could call them that um a lot of them are they really are good guys but a lot of these guys are

00:40:38.920 they're one trick ponies you know like they've got their their little hobby horse you know they're

00:40:43.620 marching to the beat of this one drum and it garnishes a ton of support like people like it

00:40:49.960 you know and people will show up um but they're not well-rounded they're not confessional a lot

00:40:54.860 of these guys um you know they're they don't they're just they're lopsided they're like you

00:41:00.620 In one area, maybe they're really sound, but then there's just so many weak spots.

00:41:05.880 It's like in – have you seen The Lady in the Water by M. Night Shyamalan?

00:41:10.600 Yeah, that was the weirdest movie ever, but yeah, I saw it.

00:41:13.160 There's one guy for some reason.

00:41:14.680 Oh, yeah.

00:41:15.780 He's just building this one really big arm, right?

00:41:17.660 Right, right, right.

00:41:18.320 And and that is that that's I've noticed this with pastors, but also with the members where it's like that the entrance right now into Christianity and into churches are very strange, where it's like someone will be Jordan Peterson and then they'll find me.

00:41:36.640 And and now they really think through Christianity, primarily through kind of a sexuality lens.

00:41:42.800 Right. Or you have someone that, you know, we've got a large community.

00:41:48.320 Canadian population that comes to our church and visits actually.

00:41:51.420 So do we.

00:41:52.300 Yeah.

00:41:52.920 Yeah.

00:41:53.060 We're actually helping,

00:41:53.940 helping some of them plant a church down here in the States for basically

00:41:58.580 Canadian refugees. 0.88

00:41:59.780 Right.

00:42:00.780 But they're interesting because they'll have this really developed doctrine,

00:42:04.440 the lesser magistrate,

00:42:05.420 but no,

00:42:06.540 almost nothing else of reform theology.

00:42:08.800 So they have like this crazy civil doctrine.

00:42:12.960 That's like good,

00:42:14.040 crazy good.

00:42:14.680 Like it's well,

00:42:15.400 well formed,

00:42:16.040 um but not know anything about ecclesiology or soteriology it's it's very fascinating and so

00:42:22.600 people are really um they are really imbalanced right now and well a lot of them real quick aren't

00:42:29.920 convinced that they need the reform theology like the foundation and covenant theology because i

00:42:34.000 would say like one of the what i've realized one of the foundations for um a good uh political

00:42:39.020 theology um good uh you know uh theology of sex good theology of all these other things

00:42:44.420 is uh covenant theology i think that that's kind of like that's that's the foundation that all

00:42:48.920 these things spring from do you understand um the covenant nature of god the way that he works in

00:42:54.200 the world through covenants um and i i don't personally think dispensationalism um long term

00:43:00.400 like there's some outliers that john mccarthur praise god for for he's done awesome stuff but i

00:43:05.560 personally would say as much respect as john mccarthur is um is worthy of and i do believe

00:43:09.960 he's worthy of respect. I think he's done some great stuff inconsistently. And I'm grateful for

00:43:15.440 that inconsistency. But my point is long-term, I don't think that's the theological framework

00:43:20.700 that's going to be able to support these kinds of endeavors. But my point is this, I think one of

00:43:25.000 the reasons why it's hard for me, I don't know about you, but it's hard for me to sell people

00:43:28.340 on, you can't just be anti-woke or you can't just be patriarchal or you can't just be post-mill or

00:43:35.880 you can't just have, um, you know, uh, resistance to tyranny is, you know, obedience to God.

00:43:40.660 Um, all these are good things, but, um, but we need to learn our ABCs. We need to, you know,

00:43:44.940 we actually need to learn, uh, start, start with, uh, grammar, you know, and, and logic,

00:43:49.620 and then we'll get to some of this rhetoric stuff at the top. Um, but one of the reasons I'm

00:43:53.460 struggling to convince people is because they're looking at the fruit. Um, and so my, my point is

00:43:58.500 they're saying, so you're telling me that it's imperative as a foundation, uh, to be confessionally

00:44:03.460 covenantally reformed. Okay. But, um, but 75% of the confessionally, you know, covenantally

00:44:11.420 reformed guys, um, were cowards when COVID hit and, and, and they were, they shut down their

00:44:17.460 churches, but you can see the Instagram photos of them at a BLM rally. And then you're telling

00:44:21.480 me these other guys that are anemic theologically, like these Calvary chapel guys, um, they kept

00:44:27.140 their churches open and told Caesar to take a hike. So I'm just not seeing it, Joe. I'm not

00:44:31.740 convinced that you need this for this and and part of that's because our own team sucked like 0.63

00:44:38.400 really really sucked and it's it's what do you think about that what do you what do we do about 0.87

00:44:42.940 that as local pastors well it's crazy right because um we so you find yourself in the trenches 0.71

00:44:51.340 with people you never thought you'd be in the trenches i know yeah and and then you find

00:44:57.780 yourself like firing at people that you never thought you would fire at like i watched some

00:45:02.960 friends go directions um that i just never thought they would go in a million years i mean really the

00:45:10.340 churches that fell apart and some of these guys that really went for the hardcore you have to do

00:45:16.400 whatever the government a government agent tells you to do uh it was a little bit surprising and

00:45:20.780 and there was there was also like you said good surprises so the folks that they basically just

00:45:25.580 loved the church right they just loved their people and they feared god and they took a strong

00:45:30.940 stand and you found yourself like at times like with charismatics who are right you know pretty

00:45:39.700 much armenians um and you're you're fighting the same fight well what's interesting what i see

00:45:46.740 happening is those guys though are what i would tell someone all right so um listen to the calvary

00:45:56.460 chapel guys argument for why they did it and in what direction what's the trajectory of their

00:46:03.320 argument a guarantee it's more covenantal it's more uh built around sphere sovereignty they might

00:46:09.480 just be doing it in their own broken way but they're they are moving towards uh truth that

00:46:14.760 they were forced to um but they just knew like from the heart and see that's that's the thing

00:46:20.320 that's so upsetting um it's one thing to fail from ignorance it's another thing to fail from

00:46:27.620 knowledge and um and so uh the these guys that didn't have the knowledge but they they knew

00:46:34.320 enough and they worked from it and they came to the right place the reform guys have no um excuse

00:46:40.680 use for it our confessions uh lie these sort of things out the the entire reformation especially

00:46:46.080 the those that those of us that descend from puritans here in america was on religious freedom

00:46:51.920 and being able to worship the way we want to worship right the black regiment and then we've

00:46:57.060 got the you know the scottish reformers and john knox and protestant resistance theory like that's

00:47:01.560 our heritage and these guys knew that and and failed and we did so i think um but what what's

00:47:07.940 what's really fascinating is i've got so many friends turning covenantal so many friends coming

00:47:13.900 this direction and uh and i i've had to work really hard to think through my language and

00:47:20.660 how i communicate in front of my church just to make sure they understand these concepts like

00:47:24.780 i don't know i don't think we're facebook friends but my facebook comments are like the worst

00:47:28.680 dumpster fires at all times and i'm like hiding blocking deleting like i i hate i don't like to

00:47:35.220 play moderator. So I block a lot. Um, but a lot of people misunderstand things I'm saying

00:47:41.360 because it requires like they're, it's the reading comprehensions bad, but the theological

00:47:48.020 reading comprehension is like this terrible. And they don't understand what these words mean.

00:47:52.880 They don't understand the insider language. They don't understand the illusions, the references

00:47:56.940 that are being made. And they're taking me to say something much more extreme than I am.

00:48:00.140 So it's not good because I've got my critics that are saying, see, he believes this.

00:48:05.300 And then I got people that like agree with my critics, except they think it's good.

00:48:09.960 Right. They think like they think my my extreme position, which is not really as extreme as they think it is, is because they have not been discipled.

00:48:18.540 I mean, here's the the indictment on the American church and on American pastors is that it's one of two things and sometimes both.

00:48:30.140 But we don't know or we didn't follow what we knew or our people didn't know.

00:48:36.540 Right. And so people have not been discipled in America.

00:48:39.300 Me and my associate pastor were talking about how how mind blowing it is and how little Christians know. 0.64

00:48:47.920 And what they what they do know is this very surface level. 0.91

00:48:50.760 They've watched a couple of YouTube streams.

00:48:52.580 They've read some Wikipedia articles.

00:48:53.760 They're very good at kind of repeating factoids or whatever, but they haven't actually read the books.

00:48:59.620 They haven't had to write papers or study it or think about it or or really have intense discipleship by anyone.

00:49:05.780 So they can't really defend their positions when under fire.

00:49:09.180 And they just kind of they fall back to, you know, inflammatory rhetoric or whatever.

00:49:15.100 They just shrink up and quit.

00:49:17.180 And so that we're having to rethink how to even disciple people.

00:49:21.240 You know, there's like the whole knowledge of Christianity is being wiped away from our, wiped away from our culture.

00:49:29.120 And it's because we've had pastors that weren't bold enough to speak the truth, didn't have enough time to disciple people.

00:49:35.220 And when things went crazy, it fell apart because of them.

00:49:39.120 And I think that's what we're seeing right now.

00:49:41.540 So we have to, we have to find guys that love the truth and love people and have communication skills to, you know, it's like we're teaching people who should know, like my kids, let's take my kids.

00:49:57.760 My kids all have to memorize a shorter catechism.

00:50:01.480 So, you know, all, what, 107 questions, whatever it is.

00:50:06.580 Um, and, uh, so they, they've been taught first OPC is children's catechism since they're like

00:50:13.920 two, two or three. We start who made you God, what else did he make all things? Why did he

00:50:18.820 make you for his glory? Right. So, um, all our kids will have to learn that. And then we transition

00:50:23.460 them over to the shorter catechism. Um, my kids know more theology by the time they're 10 than

00:50:30.320 almost all americans do and that's not because i'm an awesome dad that's because that's how sad

00:50:39.080 it is right now right and so how do we bring confessionalism back to people um in a way that's

00:50:45.080 accessible and still engages culture those are the three things i'm looking for is confessionalism

00:50:50.780 right doctrinal standards so a confession is simply a summary of biblical doctrine that we've

00:50:55.860 agreed upon um why i like the westminster 16 and i would follow this is westminster was

00:51:01.520 presbyterians uh congregationalists and anglicans came together and were able to put together a

00:51:07.520 consensus document on these these main things they all didn't that wasn't the full flavor of

00:51:12.900 all those guys but that was uh the flavor they could agree to right and i feel like you get that

00:51:17.840 many people those different persuasions in one room they come up with that uh that um doctrine

00:51:23.380 You know, one that's really funny, I heard George Gillespie, though, who when he opened his prayer as they're about to write the definition of God, he actually prayed for the definition of God.

00:51:36.060 What is God? He's the spirit. Yeah. Yeah. And so there's like, that's it. Right.

00:51:40.920 But these guys are uncommon men.

00:51:43.420 So helping people see the value of these really tried and tested summary documents, consensus statements, and how it relates to their life, that they're not dusty, but they're good.

00:51:55.480 I mean, when I first read Westminster, I was blown away by how full of life it was.

00:52:00.580 I thought it was going to be a very dry document.

00:52:02.780 It's very devotional.

00:52:04.840 It moves you.

00:52:06.280 Then to communicate this in a way that's accessible to folks that, like, know something that's wrong.

00:52:10.460 They've been awakened, but they don't have the background.

00:52:17.080 And then to do that also where it motivates them to build holy culture, right, to be involved.

00:52:24.080 And that, I think, is really what we have to do.

00:52:29.440 And that's a high order right now.

00:52:31.140 Where do we find these men that can do that?

00:52:33.100 Yep, I completely agree.

00:52:34.120 One of the things that's been helpful for me is just helping people see that it's not a matter of weather, but a matter of which. 0.91

00:52:40.140 So like confessionalism, one of the things that sold me and the Lord's used me to, you know, to persuade others is helping them see that every Christian is confessional.

00:52:49.400 It's not a matter of whether it's just a matter of which you either have, you know, the confession that you're writing in your own head as you go along.

00:52:56.100 Right. The confession that's constantly evolving, that it's radically incomplete, you know, or you can have a confession that's historical, that's been written not by one individual, but multiple individuals, all your theological superiors.

00:53:09.780 and tested and tried and true over centuries.

00:53:14.340 And that's one of the things that sold me on,

00:53:16.860 like when I was like, all right, man,

00:53:18.460 I've got to have a confession, 1689 or Westminster.

00:53:21.940 These are my options.

00:53:23.040 I've got to be able to get behind one of them.

00:53:25.140 One of the things that sold me was exhaustion.

00:53:28.240 I was so tired in my pastoral ministry

00:53:32.360 at that point of doing theology a la carte, right?

00:53:35.240 New issue rises up or I, you know,

00:53:36.900 I just be preaching through books of the Bible,

00:53:38.360 but expositional preaching kept getting me in trouble because as i'm going through books of

00:53:42.380 the bible we'd come to a new topic and uh and then all of a sudden um you know the elders and i we

00:53:48.600 have to you know have a seven hour you know conversation and and hash it out and and then

00:53:53.360 we're looking to all these individuals what does macarthur say what did sprawl say what did this

00:53:56.620 guy say you know and and then we're debating it because we don't agree and it takes us forever

00:54:00.620 you know and and then we're like all right we have our position on this and we write it down you know

00:54:04.740 and then you know like two months later there's you know we come to another text or it was either

00:54:09.960 by by coming to issues by just simply preaching through text that was one of the ways but the

00:54:14.440 other was just um issues arriving uh just arising in the church somebody would ask a question or

00:54:19.920 somebody in the church would go around and and be talking about this particular doctrine that

00:54:24.240 they held to with other people and it'd be upsetting them um and then you know it'd be like

00:54:28.340 what is the elder's position we hadn't gotten there yet and it's like well we don't have a

00:54:31.440 position. And so for me, a lot of it was literally just exhaustion. I was like, do I have to do

00:54:36.520 theology a la carte for 85 years over the course of my entire life? Is that my only option?

00:54:44.500 And then, you know, it's like, I just like, well, duh, you know, wait a second. Like we come from

00:54:49.360 a tradition, like I have this available to me. Why don't we make use of it? And do I really,

00:54:55.200 I mean, the only reason I wouldn't make use of it is if I actually thought that over the course

00:54:59.320 of my life, me and my elders were going to do a better job, which is pretty arrogant.

00:55:04.160 You know, it's like, we're not going to do a better job.

00:55:05.680 And so being able to lean back and rest on, you know, a historic tried and true document

00:55:11.600 that has scripture citations for every single position, all these kinds of things, like

00:55:15.780 was incredibly helpful.

00:55:17.680 But another thing I wanted to say, as you were talking, I just, I was thinking about

00:55:20.620 tyranny and we talk about civil tyranny and state tyranny, those kinds of things a lot.

00:55:24.400 But one of the things that I think people experienced over the last two and a half years

00:55:28.500 is ecclesiastical tyranny, tyranny from pastors.

00:55:31.840 And I think that might be the common denominator

00:55:33.680 because we talk about like, well, you know,

00:55:35.700 the theological framework for resistance to tyranny

00:55:39.220 or good theology on sex or resisting, you know,

00:55:42.880 woke ideology and neo-Marxism and all that,

00:55:45.680 you know, the common denominator theologically

00:55:48.380 is the reformed confessional, you know,

00:55:52.060 covenantal position.

00:55:53.620 But then when that got tested in God's providence,

00:55:56.860 you know over the last two and a half years a ton of confessional guys reform guys that we thought

00:56:01.720 would do really well just radically failed the test and then other guys that we thought wouldn't

00:56:06.520 do so hot that didn't have as deep of doctrine as we would like their doctrine is shallower more

00:56:11.480 anemic um they actually did really well and so i was trying to find like um a you know common

00:56:17.440 denominator what's yeah and one of the things that i found is um you know like so a lot of

00:56:21.640 Calvary Chapel guys did really well. They did really like surprisingly well. And I was thinking

00:56:26.960 about that. And I was thinking about like Calvary Chapel and some of the, you know, the hallmarks

00:56:30.200 of what it is to be Calvary Chapel. And it's like, all right, well, some of these things don't work

00:56:33.700 at all, right? Like dispensational pre-mill guys, you know, they're Arminian guys, you know. 0.93

00:56:40.040 But then I was thinking, you know, but one thing that a lot of Calvary Chapel pastors are like,

00:56:44.060 because I'm friends with some Calvary Chapel guys. And I remember thinking, well, Calvary Chapel is

00:56:49.000 notorious for no church membership. And I was thinking, how would that be a benefit? But then

00:56:53.760 I was thinking about that for a second, and I'm a church membership guy. I think they're wrong

00:56:57.700 about that. But my point is, a lot of these Calvary Chapel pastors don't have a tyrannical

00:57:04.220 bone in their body. And then some of these Reformed guys are so used to controlling the 0.84

00:57:09.860 church and controlling the membership of the church and controlling this and controlling that. 0.98

00:57:14.180 like what i started thinking is because i was surprised by some guys and if we want to name

00:57:19.340 those guys i'll let you name them i'll let you make that call but like there are some guys i was

00:57:23.280 like dude you were like one of the most conservative when i think of a conservative

00:57:26.880 reformed confessional pastor i think of so and so um and you were a tyrant i mean like literally like

00:57:34.980 i to the point where i i thought like he's got to be on the payroll for the democrat party

00:57:39.240 like this guy's like are they paying you like see i hope they are i hope you're making some

00:57:43.880 money out of this because i mean you're you're you are doing more water carrying for for the

00:57:48.700 progressive left than kamala harris like you like you should seriously like you should be getting

00:57:53.060 some kind of compensation it's like how in the world did this happen it's like oh i know the

00:57:56.960 common denominator um you're okay with civil tyranny because because you're a tyrant the people

00:58:01.820 who like tyranny are tyrants and you're just an ecclesiastical tyrant and you've always been a

00:58:06.540 tyrant you've always um pushed and prodded and and i can go back and i can listen to your podcast

00:58:12.240 and i can read some of your like where for instance when it comes to three sovereign spheres

00:58:16.180 the home the church and the state where it's like um you and your elders were constantly overriding

00:58:20.900 the authority of a father in his home right so so if the wife disagreed with the with with her

00:58:26.500 husband and and they couldn't reconcile that and they went to the elders the elders would actually

00:58:31.140 their authority would trump the husband's so you've always been okay with tyranny so that's

00:58:35.580 why you were so comfortable and and without even skipping a beat you know without losing stride

00:58:39.760 you were able to just oh yeah this is this is what authority says and and we do what authority says

00:58:43.820 no matter what um and so my point is i think you know long term like we're going to need good you

00:58:50.160 know protestant political theology and i don't think that's going to come from any other seed

00:58:54.860 but the reform confessional covenantal faith um so so i i think that that is that that's absolutely

00:59:02.140 necessary. But in the moment, that's the long-term solution. But in the moment, it seems like the

00:59:09.160 guys who had more appreciation for the liberty of conscience of individual believers, those guys

00:59:16.580 tested a lot better over the last two and a half years than the guys who even had the better

00:59:21.920 theology, but in their character, in their personal philosophy of ministry, not so much

00:59:27.840 historic theology but their philosophy ministry were already tyrannical the guys who were

00:59:33.300 tyrannical were okay with um so the ecclesiastical tyrants were okay with civil tyrants but what do

00:59:40.500 you think about that well i think it's i think you're absolutely right that was that's how i

00:59:44.560 wrapped my mind around some of those guys who i care not to name to be honest yeah that's fine

00:59:48.480 that's i love them but as as as as as i watched them go that way i was like uh you know what this

00:59:54.140 is they they are projecting their uh they're reflecting the way they think about authority

01:00:02.400 onto the government right and um and you know i i know pastors who i can think of a pretty well

01:00:09.540 known pastor who um who told me uh once well what i'm gonna go find out what your wife thinks about

01:00:16.180 that right like when i disagreed with him and i was like like he's gonna go talk to your wife

01:00:21.860 go around me yeah yeah that's insane and uh and so i was and i was just thinking like

01:00:27.760 me and my wife agree on everything we're like we move in lockstep right we we have actual marriage

01:00:35.580 we we talk through all these issues we go on the same page together and so part of me was like go

01:00:39.980 ahead and um and uh so and of course she she agreed with me and and so we saw that sort of

01:00:48.580 attitude and so i started messing with those guys heads because they're always um it's funny

01:00:54.440 how they think fathers are always these abusive tyrants um these kind of uh guys from speaking

01:01:02.580 so carefully here but here's what here's what i noticed let me put it this way um they i asked

01:01:08.960 them would you be okay with a man telling his wife that she has to wear the same yellow polka

01:01:17.580 dotted dress every day and um and they all agreed no and i and i agree with them i was like yeah

01:01:25.740 it's crazy like that's that's uh that's an abusive authority that's not that's not the purpose of

01:01:30.940 his authority is to control every single part of her life but to lead the mission of the household 0.61

01:01:35.500 she's to submit and follow him she has a basic level of autonomy as a human she can she doesn't 0.93

01:01:41.420 like it's weird to force her to do that um so we would say yeah that's not right would i discipline

01:01:46.700 from for i don't know it's so outlandish but apparently the government can tell us to that

01:01:52.960 guy can't do that you'd be against that thank goodness but but they can tell us to put a mask

01:01:57.960 on right um and so why why uh where's the discontinuity coming from well discontinuity

01:02:06.060 um is coming because you just want to be the guy to give the command you want to be in control of

01:02:10.880 everything right and these these authoritarian ministers uh came out of the woodwork from

01:02:16.900 everywhere um but they showed their true colors which is they really don't i i like i like my

01:02:24.260 congregation being involved you said something on the phone the other day that i thought was

01:02:28.560 really catchy that in your church it's a view of all things um view on all things voice on some

01:02:35.080 things and a vote on on something a few things yeah yeah i thought that was really good and we

01:02:40.240 we wanted the congregation involved because that's that's strong it's just like that picture of that

01:02:45.240 there's a beat up dog he's kind of like a shepherd dog he's bleeding this this sheep is like leaning

01:02:50.760 on him caring for him well when you go it's it's awesome to have a church that's got your back

01:02:55.940 you know it's weird to be able to go preach and i have actually not had anyone complain about my

01:03:01.280 sermons yet wow and and um and i'm not like i'm not super edgy all the time but i'll go there

01:03:07.340 sometimes i preach the easter sermon on transgenderism i thought that was funny um but

01:03:12.820 but uh probably the weirdest easter sermon anyone's ever heard at the church but um but these

01:03:20.000 guys yeah i think that is i think you're right in the calvary chapel guys really view the church as

01:03:25.960 a community moving together i mean i i was discipled in calvary chapel it's a wonderful

01:03:30.620 starter church because they love people and they love the bible yeah they just got bad theology

01:03:34.700 right now um but a great place to start and i what we need now is um pastors that

01:03:42.360 here's how you know someone loves authority they they love its limits as well they respect it

01:03:49.680 like the guy that um jesus comes and says yeah i'll go help you heal your servant he says oh

01:03:55.840 you don't have to come i'm a man of authority and how authority works if you say it'll be done

01:04:00.000 And he was right.

01:04:01.660 But people that have been under authority before understand the extent and limits of authority.

01:04:07.040 And they don't abuse it.

01:04:08.660 They measure it.

01:04:09.380 And so I will demand that everyone in our church marry as a Christian. 0.98

01:04:18.300 Demand. 0.98

01:04:18.940 I will command them to in the name of God. 0.96

01:04:21.200 I will be like Moses was the Pharaoh.

01:04:22.980 I will be as God to them.

01:04:24.400 Yeah, that's right.

01:04:25.920 I will not tell them who to marry.

01:04:27.440 That's not my job.

01:04:28.920 Right?

01:04:29.460 You know, even as a pastor, you've got to be really careful when you play matchmaker, right?

01:04:33.900 And it's like a dangerous role to be in as a pastor.

01:04:36.780 So do I have authority?

01:04:38.340 Heck, yeah.

01:04:38.780 Do I have authority over people's marriage?

01:04:40.240 I do.

01:04:41.140 I do have real authority.

01:04:43.240 But it's limited authority.

01:04:44.760 All authority is limited.

01:04:46.320 Authority exists like energy.

01:04:50.780 So energy, conservation energy is neither created nor destroyed is the idea.

01:04:55.080 It just changes forms.

01:04:55.800 So you basically have these three institutions that are all headed by men, which is church, family, state.

01:05:03.220 And if the family abdicates, that creates a vacuum of authority that someone's going to take up.

01:05:10.060 Well, that's what's happened in the government.

01:05:12.040 The government gobbled up that authority, and now they're daddy government, right?

01:05:16.340 If the church abdicates, it goes somewhere.

01:05:18.320 uh so what's what's been going on is that there's been this huge shift in authority

01:05:24.500 um and what we have to do is return authority back to the household yes um and then we also

01:05:31.600 have to return authority take take back authority from the government and distribute both to the

01:05:35.900 house the household and the church right and everything right now is out of whack but the

01:05:40.880 same in a sense the same amount of authority exists it's just uh it's not distributed correctly

01:05:45.300 and you've got to get it back to where we're at and that's where we're at right now you know and

01:05:49.560 so that's the problem we have is like we're trying to get guys that are fearless in their authority

01:05:54.360 but also understand our job is as pastors to um call men to rule in their households to call

01:06:04.300 um the governors to rule in a righteous way and and to do the same in our church we're trying to

01:06:11.700 reset the flow of authority where things are rightly, you know, the rod belongs to the family,

01:06:21.020 the keys belong to the church, and the sword belongs to the magistrate, right? We all have

01:06:26.680 different discipline powers. We all, like, I can excommunicate someone. I can call it the

01:06:34.440 government um i have real power um i cannot punish crime i can deal with the sinful aspects of crime

01:06:42.860 um and so we all have powers and limits so what these guys had never really thought through that

01:06:49.760 or don't care um and and now what we need is to rise up a generation of of fearless pastors

01:06:58.220 that are absolutely committed to this fear of sovereignty and reestablishing it.

01:07:04.820 Helping these kind of blowhard patriarchal types.

01:07:07.220 There are some guys that get into it and they're like, 0.61

01:07:09.180 they really are abusive with their authority.

01:07:11.220 They're over.

01:07:11.840 And so we have to correct them.

01:07:13.740 But we don't want, like, I always tell people with a strong-willed kid.

01:07:17.760 People, how do you break a strong-willed kid?

01:07:19.980 Don't break his will.

01:07:21.860 Like, life takes a strong will.

01:07:24.180 Yeah.

01:07:24.860 Right?

01:07:25.160 Life requires a strong will.

01:07:29.300 And so what you really need is to learn how to bend and aim it and channel the right way.

01:07:35.140 So as these people are coming to our churches, they've been awakened.

01:07:39.360 Well, we don't want to just put out their fire, but we want to contain it so it's productive and going somewhere.

01:07:44.380 That's the challenge we have right now.

01:07:46.400 Amen.

01:07:47.040 Yeah, you said we need guys who are wholly committed to sphere sovereignty.

01:07:51.420 what i've been the language i've been using to you know for our listeners and with with my local

01:07:56.020 church um as i'm discipling people saying you know we need three spheres two kingdoms one king

01:08:00.700 because there's so much teaching on like you know radical two kingdom kingdom theology versus you

01:08:06.120 know kyperianism and and and then you know and then understanding jesus and pressing his crown

01:08:10.660 rights and his you know his kingly authority on earth and in heaven what does that mean you know

01:08:14.840 and and and how does that work with eschatology you know between pre-mill and all mill and uh

01:08:19.260 post mill, you know, I, I always tease the all mill guys and say, you know, like a pre-mill is

01:08:23.120 not yet, but soon, you know, and post mill is not yet, but, um, but, but, uh, I'm sorry. Um,

01:08:30.360 already, but already, but not yet. Um, yeah. And with post mill, I would say, uh, so pre-mill is

01:08:34.660 like, uh, not yet, but soon, uh, post mill is already, but not fully. Um, and, and then all

01:08:40.360 mill is, um, already, but not really, you know, and obviously there's, there's a sliding scale,

01:08:46.560 you know because some all male guys would really do believe in some serious tangible aspects of

01:08:52.140 christ's will and reign but some of them though are just you know i mean christ is just reigning

01:08:56.000 spiritually ethereally it's all it's all a spiritual drama in the heavenly is right exactly

01:09:00.880 so there's so my point is there's so much doctrine between you know eschatology comes into play

01:09:04.700 um your understanding of kingdoms come into play sphere sovereignty christ his his lordship rights

01:09:10.980 um but but what's been helpful in trying to be as clear and concise as possible is telling people

01:09:15.540 three spheres, two kingdoms, one king. Three spheres, this is speaking, there are a million

01:09:21.640 different spheres. I, you know, I have an HOA, that's a sphere, you know, like that, like that's

01:09:26.160 a real institution that has some real authority, but it's not a divinely, you know, instituted

01:09:32.500 institution. It's, you know, so that doesn't mean there aren't any other groups, you can have a

01:09:37.180 swim team, you can have a whatever, you know, and there's medical institutions and the arts and,

01:09:43.200 you know and and markets and economy and and all these different things but in terms of divine

01:09:47.700 spheres we have the home the church and the state um and these are this is not a hierarchy of it's

01:09:52.300 the state over you know the church that's over families and the home these are three parallel

01:09:56.340 spheres um that are autonomous with their own authority um and there are moments where there

01:10:02.120 is overlap like a venn diagram one is not over the other so three spheres there are two kingdoms

01:10:08.120 And what I'm trying to help people see is it's not the kingdom of common and sacred.

01:10:12.900 I think that that's a bad dualism.

01:10:16.300 That's a bad distinction.

01:10:17.880 And it's also not this two kingdoms of church and state, but it's the two kingdoms of light

01:10:24.680 and darkness.

01:10:25.620 And there can be light.

01:10:27.360 So the kingdom of light, the church doesn't have a monopoly on that.

01:10:31.380 Whenever you have a godly, righteous, Christian civil magistrate, you have light in the sphere

01:10:36.780 of the state. 0.96

01:10:37.360 And the Bible says false teachers will arise from among you, speaking about the sphere of the church.

01:10:42.520 Whenever you have a false church with false prophets and false teachers, you have dark in the sphere of the church.

01:10:48.280 And so you have three spheres, the kingdom of light and dark that are distinct from one another but overlapping.

01:10:54.360 And then one king who's over all of it, who's Christ Jesus.

01:10:57.440 And I think if you can get guys to understand that basic concept and then understanding having confidence in the authority that they have as husbands, as fathers, if they're elders, if they're deacons, if they're on the city council, you know, and having guys actually get involved in local politics and understanding how much authority they have, but also knowing exactly precisely where it stops, that all human authority is vested authority.

01:11:22.560 There's no such thing as inherent human authority.

01:11:25.200 no man has authority in and of himself. It's all stewardship. It's all given, vested by God

01:11:31.960 to a particular end. And the moment you get past those ends. And so the last thing I was going to

01:11:38.200 say is just that the state was a tyrant, but I think the church has been a tyrant too. And it

01:11:44.040 seems like out of those three spheres, the one that has suffered the most, right? As pastors,

01:11:48.360 we think about the church and the state has encroached over the church, and especially the

01:11:52.440 last two and a half years with lockdowns, shut down your church. That's true. There's something

01:11:56.720 there. But out of the three spheres of the home, the church, and the state, no sphere has had its

01:12:02.980 authority gobbled up, like you said earlier, more than the home. The state has gobbled up a ton of

01:12:10.540 familial fathers' responsibilities. But I think the church has two. And again, that common

01:12:16.280 denominator, like trying to find a correlation with pastors who are willing to shut down their

01:12:20.520 churches or started not just saying, hey, masks are optional or even recommending, but actually

01:12:26.120 requiring masks. Like when they did open, you have to wear a mask to attend. I would say that

01:12:32.300 that's tyranny. That's a binding of the conscience. Even the reason why I wanted our church to open

01:12:37.820 was because it's like, if our church is open, guess what? That allows for both consciences.

01:12:45.880 Nobody has to come, but people can come. But if we close the church, what we're saying is anybody

01:12:50.420 whose conscience is saying we should gather, we're saying, sorry, your conscience is now

01:12:55.480 bound. You cannot submit to your own conscience. If the church is open and somebody's 85 years old

01:13:02.600 with comorbidities and autoimmune disorder and stuff, we're not mandating that they attend

01:13:09.500 church, but the church being open, just from a logical standpoint, apart from theology,

01:13:15.120 Just logically, the church open position is the more accommodating position.

01:13:20.400 The mask, you know, like saying, we're not requiring masks, we're also not banning masks.

01:13:24.720 If somebody came with a mask, I wasn't going to take it off of their face, you know, or 0.99

01:13:28.440 pull it back and slap on the face and say, you're a libtard, you know, like, I wasn't 0.98

01:13:31.760 going to mock them for it. 1.00

01:13:33.580 Maybe, you know, two years in, maybe a little bit of loving mocking, like, what are you

01:13:37.680 doing?

01:13:38.300 But, you know, like, you're allowing for both.

01:13:40.700 But what pastors didn't consider is it's like when you, anytime you use the word require or mandatory or any, and especially with the church, the house of God, what you're essentially saying is that the one thing that Christ says is necessary for somebody to come to his table, faith, right?

01:13:59.400 You're saying, well, in this case, it's faith plus a mask, faith plus like that.

01:14:05.060 And I think pastors, one of the reasons they were content to pull that trigger and make those kinds of decisions so quickly and so haphazardly is because they didn't realize how big of a decision it actually was.

01:14:16.200 They didn't realize that what they were saying was, you cannot come to the Lord's table unless you have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and a mask on.

01:14:26.300 Or, you know, we're just going to take the Lord's table away from his people for four months.

01:14:30.540 you know or we're just like they didn't realize uh it's almost like a like a puppy you know like

01:14:36.140 some of these pastors goes all the way back to the beginning of our conversation they just they

01:14:39.680 were managerial leaders they like they were like a puppy but but a great dane right like a nine

01:14:45.020 month old puppy that still thinks it weighs like seven pounds but it's actually like like 65 pounds

01:14:51.120 you know and uh and and just uh making these decisions not realizing how much power um and

01:14:57.640 And how like the far reaching implications and theological implications were of what

01:15:03.880 they were deciding.

01:15:04.760 And so guys were, you know, they were tyrants and without even realizing it.

01:15:09.820 The last thing I was going to say, I forgot about this, but one way I think the church

01:15:13.280 has encroached on the family in a form of tyranny is by having too many midweek programs.

01:15:18.880 Like we're telling dads like, dude, you need to be doing family worship.

01:15:22.000 You're the pastor of your home.

01:15:23.340 And then there's Wednesday night, Thursday night, Friday night.

01:15:25.320 And then the state with public schools, you know, with, with this sports and that's, you know, and all, and then it's just like families, like, you know, you talk about doing the Westminster Shorter Catechism.

01:15:33.440 And I think there's a lot of men who, who really do want to do something like that.

01:15:37.640 And they're like, when, when the church took all of our time, whatever the state left over.

01:15:42.680 And so I just feel like this, the state is the major tyrant, but then whatever they don't gobble up, the church often gobbles up.

01:15:49.160 It does.

01:15:49.420 And because the people ask too, though, and that's where this is a corrective time where like, you know, what do people judge a church by a lot of times?

01:15:57.840 Well, basically your music and your children's program.

01:16:00.080 That's right.

01:16:00.740 And so part of it, like, so we have eight foundational commitments.

01:16:03.540 One of our foundational commitments is we are committed to a streamlined form of ministry.

01:16:07.740 And so any decision we make in our eldership, we have to, we run them by our foundational commitments.

01:16:13.780 They're our philosophy of ministry.

01:16:14.880 and i was feeling the pressure to disciple people and almost added a midweek service we're like you

01:16:20.480 know what the thing is when you add these services they don't go away a lot of times that's right

01:16:24.320 right so church programs are kind of like government programs once you start one they never

01:16:28.760 go away and it's even though there's like five people going to it and it's like should have been

01:16:34.180 killed forever ago but it means a lot to this elder's wife and therefore it keeps on going right

01:16:39.060 but um but i think you're right is that what we're it's that's the difficulty like what happens

01:16:46.020 when everything's broken down when everything's chaotic where do you rebuild and we're rebuilding

01:16:50.960 uh we're starting new churches we're um making new disciples correcting imbalances we're creating

01:16:58.580 um new informal formal networks denominations uh it's a while it's an exciting time because

01:17:06.360 that we get to rebuild and i you know this world world uh this idea of neutral world versus negative

01:17:12.180 world positive world that comes from aaron wren's really starting to take off um and we we don't

01:17:17.580 live in neutral world anymore like it is not seen as a good thing to be a christian it's not break

01:17:22.840 it's we we are uh increasingly enemies of the state uh certainly enemies of the zeitgeist

01:17:27.940 and um and so now we're building churches for the so-called negative world for when it's a negative

01:17:34.240 to be a christian and that's what we have to do so it's exciting to be part of it man yep i

01:17:38.880 completely agree you know we're trying to focus on just the lord's day we we had you know sunday

01:17:43.580 morning and we just recently added you know sunday evening if if we you know in the future as the

01:17:48.500 lord provides like we next thing would probably be sunday school you know like an optional 9 a.m

01:17:53.880 before church at 10 a.m eventually maybe like a sunday prayer meeting we have our evening service

01:17:58.100 at five maybe there's a four o'clock prayer meeting like i want to have a not just a lord's

01:18:02.060 hour but a lord's day but that's all i want to have is a lord's day because i just when i look

01:18:06.900 at church history god has sustained his people in virtually you know every nation every culture

01:18:12.360 every century um by having a robust lord's day and then the rest of the time it's like

01:18:17.140 well what what are we doing how is the church ministering what you're being the church like

01:18:22.020 it's i want fathers to be in their home with their wives you know with their children but also

01:18:26.160 um i'm telling the guys all the time like preaching this all of christ for all of life

01:18:30.240 Kuyperianism, you know, uh, not one single square inch, you know, of all, all God's creation that

01:18:34.500 Christ doesn't cry out mine. Um, then they need time to start that business. That business isn't 0.96

01:18:39.560 going to start itself. Um, which means, uh, that, that probably what that looks like is not having

01:18:43.920 a Wednesday night service because Wednesday night after working 40, 50 hours already that week,

01:18:48.180 you need to be able to come home and, and be working on plans for starting your own business

01:18:52.400 so that you're, so that you're economically bulletproof and cancel proof, you know? And so

01:18:56.520 we want these parallel Christian economies and businesses and all this kind of stuff. And that

01:19:00.980 stuff takes time. And one of the reasons Christians don't have time is because the church takes all 1.00

01:19:05.240 their time. So yeah, I love what you're saying, that streamlined of ministry. But the thing is, 0.57

01:19:11.080 we're only 18 months in and I'm already, as a pastor, having to remind our people of that.

01:19:15.800 When they're like, well, what if we had a women's kind of... And I'm like, but remember what we're

01:19:19.960 trying to do? Restore Christendom in every sphere of life. It's not just the ecclesiastical sphere. 0.99

01:19:26.520 like we want the Lord's day to be like the Puritan's view,

01:19:28.900 the market day for the soul.

01:19:30.160 You come and you just get loaded up with all these goodies.

01:19:34.580 You know, it's the delectable mountains, you know,

01:19:36.820 Pilgrim's Progress.

01:19:37.480 You get a glimpse of the celestial city.

01:19:39.300 But then you go home and we say goodbye for the next six days.

01:19:43.280 We do one men's meeting, one women's meeting,

01:19:46.700 and one youth gathering.

01:19:49.180 And we do women's.

01:19:51.700 Weekly or monthly?

01:19:52.760 Monthly. 1.00

01:19:53.440 One woman. 1.00

01:19:54.320 So we do women's on Tuesday. 0.93

01:19:56.520 uh youth on wednesday and men on thursday on staggered weeks there's one week there nothing

01:20:03.500 happens and that way we don't we don't steal tuesday from someone always or wednesday all

01:20:08.500 um and and we do it we try to do high quality we they all start and end at the same time

01:20:15.120 they uh with the exception of the women's ministry they're all elder led um so and we find like you

01:20:23.100 can get a lot accomplished and you and and people say well where are people going to fellowship well

01:20:26.960 they're adults right like right they they can share phone numbers and you know right we don't

01:20:32.120 have small groups right now we don't need them i'm not i i'm not 100 against them i'm not a fan

01:20:37.960 uh on the whole but um yeah well anyway yep i'm with you man cool well thanks for coming on the

01:20:43.700 show i really appreciate it we don't have small groups either and it's exactly i'd be hypocritical

01:20:47.780 if i said like and therefore we we command no small groups right that's that's tyranny just

01:20:52.440 the other direction. So we're not making a rule about it, but I'm the same as you. It's like,

01:20:56.700 man, I just think less is more right now. Cause there's so much to do. There's just so much to

01:21:00.580 do. All right. Well, thanks for coming on the show, Michael. Uh, how can people follow you?

01:21:05.180 I'm mostly act. Don't follow me on Facebook. I'll probably just block you. Um, but I am,

01:21:11.700 I'm so close to be done with Facebook, but, uh, mainly on Twitter, this is foster and I've got a,

01:21:17.520 this is foster is turning into a podcast that'll actually record the first

01:21:23.960 episode tomorrow morning and got you getting you scheduled on that.

01:21:27.800 And so that'll be on YouTube. You can go to my, my YouTube channel,

01:21:31.060 which is this M Scott Foster. So if you have my middle name, Scott,

01:21:34.340 but it'll, it'll be coming out there in the next couple of weeks.

01:21:37.600 Cool. And your book's on Canon, right? Guys can, it is, it's on Canon.

01:21:41.120 So it's good to be a man's on Amazon Canon,

01:21:44.740 anywhere you want to get it. It's there. You got candle unlimited.

01:21:47.340 it's free it's on audible um it's uh been awesome it's been hovering around number one again it gets

01:21:53.040 popped up to number one every time critics get mad at me i love it what category is it in on on

01:21:57.600 amazon like number one in what well it's been number one in presbyterian christianity which

01:22:03.100 is super small yeah but it was number one in lutheran christianity for a while it was hilarious

01:22:07.640 but uh men's christian living is a pretty huge category and that's the category it's been it's

01:22:13.220 been in the top 10 most days since it came out uh november of last year that's which is it's been

01:22:20.020 really cool right it's been nuts we've been number one we're number one for like four or five months

01:22:24.940 there and um i think i think our book our goal with that book was to be a catalyst what we you

01:22:33.940 know non and i wanted to write a systematic theology of manhood and then we realized like

01:22:38.700 that's not going to happen right now. We're too busy. And then we said, what do men need

01:22:42.960 to get jumpstarted? And so it's good to be a man's, a jumpstart. That's what it is. It's a

01:22:48.420 boost to get you moving. It's not going to answer all your questions, solve everything,

01:22:51.420 but it can give you a topographical map and a compass. Cool. Amen. All right. Well,

01:22:57.800 thanks for tuning in to all our listeners and we'll see you next time. God bless.

01:23:01.540 Thanks so much for listening, but real quick, before you go, do us a small favor,

01:23:05.800 take a moment and leave us a five-star review if you enjoyed the show. This is undoubtedly

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The NXR Podcast - November 15, 2022

THEOLOGY APPLIED - After Covid & Wokeness, We Need 1,000’s Of New Pastors w Michael Foster

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