The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - Are Christian Nationalists About To Have Egg On Our Face？ w Doug Wilson

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00:00:18 All right, welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied.

00:00:20 I am your host, Pastor Joel Webbin with Right Response Ministries.

00:00:24 And in this episode, I'm very excited and privileged to have

00:00:26 welcoming back to the show, Pastor Doug Wilson in Moscow, Idaho. And we talk all things Christian

00:00:32 nationalism. Christian nationalism has been under fire. You've got kinism. You've got, you know,

00:00:38 basically people are saying, you know, a host of things. But one of the things is that Christian

00:00:43 nationalism is just a placeholder, a euphemism, a religious euphemism for white nationalism. 0.83

00:00:48 That's what we're talking about. Can you be a Christian nationalist? Can you even define nation,

00:00:53 ethnoid, these kinds of things without it being all about race? Is Christian nationalism just an 0.97

00:00:59 attempt for Christians who are racist to have their utopian view come to life? Or is there

00:01:07 something more here? And particularly what we get at is Doug's, his projections or predictions rather

00:01:14 of what's going to happen with this movement. Is it going to blow up in our face? What's going to

00:01:17 happen over the next five years? Tune in now. All right, all right, all right. Stop twisting my arm.

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00:04:28 Applying God's word to every aspect of life.

00:04:31 This is Theology Applied.

00:04:37 All right, welcome to another episode of Theology Applied.

00:04:40 I am your host, Pastor Joel Webin with Right Response Ministries, and this episode, I am

00:04:44 very privileged to welcome back for the 17th time, not quite that many, but certainly a

00:04:49 regular guest, Pastor Doug Wilson.

00:04:51 Wilson, thank you for joining us.

00:04:53 Hey.

00:04:53 Good to see you.

00:04:54 Glad to be here.

00:04:55 So we are, as we're recording, it's December 1st, so you've just rounded out the month

00:05:00 of November, which is not just NQN, but NQNQ, because it's the fifth time, right?

00:05:08 And so I keep wondering, you know, what is he going to burn down next?

00:05:12 You know, I mean, at this point, we wonder the same thing, right?

00:05:15 Hopefully, hopefully not a church.

00:05:17 You know, I feel like that might, you know, kind of cast the wrong message unless it was.

00:05:21 Yeah. 0.95

00:05:21 Unless it was a rainbow flag, you know, flying church and, you know, maybe you could get 0.99

00:05:25 away with it. 0.75

00:05:25 But all that being said, I don't know if you're prepared to share this information.

00:05:29 I know you guys want to drop it first and this episode wouldn't drop for a couple of

00:05:32 weeks, but can you give me a general idea?

00:05:35 because one of the things I love that you do is after November, you give us an update of God's

00:05:40 providence and his grace and how much reach, you know, Canon and blog and may blog and those kind

00:05:46 of, are there any sneak peeks that you can give us? Yeah, we haven't, we're, we've got to assemble

00:05:53 the data. But I just checked this morning, we give away books, for example, Canon gives away

00:06:00 a boatload of books and i give away books ebooks from my website and i just uh checked this morning

00:06:09 and um i gave away between six and seven thousand books wow how does that compare with last year

00:06:17 um i haven't looked at last year but i know that canon press uh their giveaways early in the month

00:06:24 were at least double last year.

00:06:28 So it really exploded.

00:06:30 So we've given away, over November with Mayblog and Canon Press,

00:06:35 we've given away tens of thousands of books.

00:06:38 Wow, praise God.

00:06:40 Man, I feel like, so I've got the Canon app.

00:06:43 Most of the guys and gals in our church have it also. 0.99

00:06:47 And Christians always do things, and it's like,

00:06:49 I think Jeremy Boring from Daily Wire said it, 1.00

00:06:53 you know, but like usually conservatives and Christians, they, the four B's, they get beat, 0.53

00:06:58 they bemoan, that's kind of the chair, but he uses a different B, but they get beat, they bemoan, 0.77

00:07:02 and then they boycott, you know, but people want, you know, entertainment, they want coffee,

00:07:08 you know, so boycott usually lasts, you know, a fortnight, and then they beg for donations, 0.97

00:07:13 and I feel like Christians are notorious for that, and I was going to get the Canon app just, 1.00

00:07:18 if nothing else just to support you know the ministry and i i can honestly say uh that i feel 1.00

00:07:25 like i'm getting more than an eight dollar a month value like it you guys put together something

00:07:28 that's really remarkable so well done that fourth that fourth b or maybe the second one ought to be

00:07:36 built right well that's what i was gonna say is scratch all four of those b's well some most of

00:07:41 them and then yeah the fifth b should yeah built and that's what you're built yep praise god okay

00:07:47 So this is what I wanted to ask you. 0.57

00:07:49 I gave you a little bit of a heads up before we hit record, but Christian nationalism.

00:07:54 I love the way that you've defined it and just saying that there are technically six

00:07:59 categories if we look at the tribalism, nationalism, globalism on the one hand, and then over here,

00:08:06 Christian or not Christian.

00:08:08 And you've kind of pieced in as a primary example, secularism, secular humanism.

00:08:13 um so so if those are you know then then we have six categories christian you know tribalism or

00:08:18 secular tribalism and and on and on nationalism and globalism and when you put it like that it's

00:08:24 just like okay what what christian is not a christian nationalist right you know so it's like

00:08:28 so in that sense i'm like yeah i'm a christian nationalist i don't agree with everything with

00:08:32 wolf and i know that you don't either right he's more thomistic um whereas i always you know natural

00:08:37 revelation natural law yes and amen um but i also you know maybe it's the van till that in me but

00:08:43 I always want to remind people, but God wrote a book and we can use the book, you know? And so,

00:08:48 so I, you know, so there's some distinctions there, but, but I, I really think that this

00:08:51 Christian nationalism thing, if it's going to have any, you know, it would call it me a Christodom

00:08:55 or call it whatever you want, but just the civil magistrate submits to Christ. No separation

00:09:01 between Christ and state. Church and state is different than, and so yes and amen, the nations

00:09:06 are Christ's inheritance. They must be Christian and that's got to be a big tent. And so if some 1.00

00:09:11 Thomas want to get on, hop on with that. Praise God. And we can have a debate later on. So I'm

00:09:16 grateful for Stephen Wolf and talk to him offline some and grateful for what he's doing. But I feel

00:09:23 like, and I know you're aware of this, it seems like there are some very, very large potential

00:09:30 pitfalls. Guys want to, they want to make Christian nationalism. The guys who don't like it, 0.63

00:09:35 they want to make it white Christian nationalism. They want to tie it in with the kinest. And you

00:09:40 did a good job saying you guys think that you're leading the charge but you're the soft underbelly

00:09:44 and and uh and and so what what is your prediction um in terms of what what is is christian nationalism

00:09:51 just gonna blow up in our face is are we all gonna have egg on our face and regret using that title

00:09:57 what's gonna happen the next two three four five years yeah so supposing that it does blow up and

00:10:05 And supposing that we do have egg on our face, those six options remain the six options.

00:10:11 It doesn't matter if we get embarrassed or not.

00:10:15 Those are the options.

00:10:17 So what I'd like to do in response to this is sort of maybe shift the metaphor that we use on getting from here to there.

00:10:26 Because I think a lot of people freak out because they have the wrong metaphor running in their head.

00:10:30 And then talk about what I think the challenge of kinism and things like that present to us.

00:10:40 So when conservatives, Berkeyan conservatives like myself, are suspicious of ideology, an ideologue is someone who's got the whole thing mapped out.

00:10:54 And give him the plans, give him a flag and a direction to march and a gun to shoot.

00:11:00 And he's going to go try to implement that ideology. 0.95

00:11:05 Okay.

00:11:07 The problem, the essential difference between a reformer and a revolutionary is patience.

00:11:14 A reformer is patient.

00:11:16 Revolutionary is always impatient.

00:11:18 And revolutionaries are always ideologues.

00:11:21 But in order to abstain from ideology, it's not necessary to have no idea where you're going

00:11:27 or no idea of what the ideal society ought to be.

00:11:31 It's the presence of patience, not the absence of a plan.

00:11:35 That's good.

00:11:36 That's good.

00:11:37 Okay.

00:11:37 So here's the metaphor that I think a lot of people stumble over.

00:11:43 Let's say we're talking with different people about our ideal society.

00:11:48 The temptation is to think that we're going into a restaurant

00:11:52 and we're sitting down and ordering off the menu.

00:11:57 Uh, and if I persuade my, come on, let's get the steak or come on, let's get the, um, let's get

00:12:04 the pasta. And we think that when we order it, then it's going to come out of the kitchen hot

00:12:10 and ready to go and be placed on the table in front of us. And everybody's talking as though

00:12:15 Christian, a Christian nation is going to arrive straight out of the kitchen. Okay. Um, but we, 1.00

00:12:24 we have the challenging problem of getting from here to there. Yeah. Right. And so I want to shift

00:12:30 the metaphor. I want us to say we're not sitting at a table in a restaurant preparing to order off

00:12:35 the menu. Rather, we're cooks in the kitchen, standing around the pot, and the pot is full

00:12:42 of chicken curry. And the Lord has told us in the Great Commission that when we're done, he wants

00:12:48 the pot to be full of beef stroganoff okay now how some miracles have to there have to be some

00:12:57 remarkable things happen here in order for this to happen but when i'm looking at this and i let's

00:13:04 say with the various differences i've got with steven wolf when i look at what he's talking

00:13:09 about i'm asking myself is this a is this a step or two closer to beef stroganoff right than what

00:13:17 we have now yes it is okay it it manifestly is all right it's a step in the right direction

00:13:24 now we can adjust sauces and we can adjust ingredients down the road but this is a this

00:13:32 is a step in the right direction and the other cooks standing around the pot some of them want

00:13:37 to put arsenic in the in it some of them want to uh fill it up with water you know they've got all

00:13:44 these competing things and i'm saying no i'm i'm with steven so far as it goes this let's go this

00:13:49 direction what some of them want to do is they want to say doug um if you weren't so racist you

00:13:55 would appreciate the curry it's an ethnic dish you want the beef stroganoff because it's a white

00:14:00 bland that's what they're gonna say so i'm gonna have to fix my metaphor yeah you're gonna have to

00:14:06 fix the metaphor it's not gonna work i'm gonna have to go go from beef stroganoff to well actually

00:14:11 i need to have beef stew like or irish stew or something like that yeah something from the uk

00:14:16 and we go to go toward curry exactly and then everyone everyone will see that i'm not a racist

00:14:21 and they will and they will apologize right that's right no so having said that that means

00:14:28 that when you if i'm if i make a decision to go in the direction of what i think will result in

00:14:35 a better society 150 years from now there really is room for discussion and debate

00:14:43 there's also room for the unreasonable types to get in there and discuss and debate

00:14:48 okay and so we have to walk in wisdom and keep certain people away from the spices

00:14:57 right okay and uh and this is where it gets down to the practical um uh issues i i believe that we

00:15:07 have to keep um three categories kinest adjacent soft kinest and hard kinest okay okay um and a

00:15:19 hard kinest would be what in the popular parlance is a racist so a hard kinest would be a racist

00:15:25 I don't like using the term racist. I used to until I spent a lot of time working through this.

00:15:32 And I don't see race as a biblical category.

00:15:36 I see kin, tribes, languages, ethnicities. That absolutely is a biblical category.

00:15:44 But race, as in Caucasian, Asian, I don't see that as a biblical category.

00:15:51 That's something that we talk to medical doctors or biologists about, okay?

00:16:02 That's not a biblical category.

00:16:05 So I want to talk in terms of ethnicity.

00:16:09 Right.

00:16:09 And when it comes to ethnicity, the New Testament is filled with references to, in Christ, there's neither Jew nor Greek, slave, free, and so on.

00:16:23 Now, Stephen is absolutely right that the fall did not alter basic human relationships.

00:16:34 It's not—Adam and Eve, after the fall, were still married.

00:16:39 They didn't have to get married again in a post-lapsarian world.

00:16:45 They were married before.

00:16:47 They're married after.

00:16:49 The children that they have, if they had had unfallen children, the children would have been children, right? 0.62

00:16:58 Brought up and nursed by Eve and brought up by Adam.

00:17:03 And after the fall, that's what happened.

00:17:05 And so natural relations at that level, like that, are sort of a constant.

00:17:11 But idolatry, because of the fall, idolatry comes in.

00:17:16 Okay, so how do you, for example, thread the needle that Stephen wants us to thread and that I want to thread of respecting and honoring your natural relations out past your grandparents?

00:17:34 Okay.

00:17:34 Your clan, your tribe, especially in an unfallen world where nobody's dying, right?

00:17:43 You can go visit your great, great, great, great grandma.

00:17:47 And so you've got that situation.

00:17:51 That's one thing.

00:17:53 And I'm with Stephen completely in his definition of that. 0.89

00:17:58 But in a fallen world, let's say you are trying to get from the curry to the stroganoff in a Confucian country where respect for your parents is all tied up with ancestor worship. 0.88

00:18:14 Right. 0.94

00:18:15 Okay.

00:18:16 And if you suddenly decide, I'm not going to worship my ancestors anymore.

00:18:25 And this was, my mom was a missionary in Japan.

00:18:28 and this was a big issue in Japan. If a young person converts to Christianity and stops

00:18:34 worshiping ancestors, there is absolutely no way for that to register in any other way 0.62

00:18:41 than disrespect for his parents. Okay, so there's got to be a clash or a revolution or

00:18:49 some sort of showdown at this. So when we're getting from curry to stroganoff in the kitchen,

00:18:56 At some point, there's going to be a fight, right?

00:19:00 At some point, there's going to be persecution.

00:19:02 At some point, it's going to be disruptive.

00:19:05 And that's why Jesus says, you can't be my disciple if you love father, mother, wife, sister, brother, children more than me.

00:19:15 You can't be my disciple.

00:19:17 So that's a non-negotiable of Christian discipleship.

00:19:22 Right, right.

00:19:23 So I believe that the danger is because of the woke jihad where people of my background, ethnic makeup, white Anglo-Saxon Protestant or middle class or hillbilly elegy material, people like that have been vilified for a few decades now.

00:19:53 And because the church at large, the Reformed Evangelical Church at large, has gone limp on this, the people in that category feel manifestly unprotected.

00:20:11 And they start listening to alternative voices who can give them an explanation for this treatment that they're getting and instruction on how to respond.

00:20:22 and there are different shades of red pill right right uh some deep some red pills are really really

00:20:31 red and some red pills are just slightly pink but there are there are a lot of people who are now

00:20:37 in a position where they are listening to kinists and as much as i repudiate the kinist take

00:20:46 my foundational accusation for the existence of kinism lies with the soft left the soft woke

00:20:54 evangelical left they're the ones who created this yes 100 yep i i completely agree um and and

00:21:03 we see that i mean we've seen that in real time with thomas accord right which was just a hit on

00:21:07 stephen wolf um you know and it's and it's sad what happened to him and yet at the same time it's

00:21:12 also, um, that's why we have to have self-control. Um, and just as a practical tip, um, one of the

00:21:19 guys in my church, as we were talking about the situation, he said, it's a good time to remember

00:21:23 that burner accounts are meant to eventually be burned. Um, you, you know, you want to, you want

00:21:28 to get rid of those from time to time. I, I'm not against the pseudonyms. I mean, we have a rich

00:21:31 history, you know, within the American tradition and, and beyond, you know, writing under a pseudonym, 0.99

00:21:36 But it has bit quite a few Christians in the butt. 0.99

00:21:41 I think of, you know, even Driscoll. 1.00

00:21:43 I think he went under the pseudonym William Wallace II and got in quite a bit of trouble.

00:21:48 But all that being said, you know, it's this hit on Stephen Wolf, which by proxy, that's also a hit on canon.

00:21:56 And it usually comes to a head with Voldemort, you know, he who should not be named, yours truly.

00:22:02 you know but you know so that that's kind of the the play but isn't it remarkable and you

00:22:08 mentioned this and some other guys that I've been talking to you know who had a relationship with

00:22:12 Thomas you know and talking to offline they you know they they're not condoning racism but they

00:22:19 are you know sympathetic and compassionate and the way that a right way that a Christian should 0.89

00:22:24 be and saying isn't it remarkable how there's there's so much compassion for sodomy but there's 0.86

00:22:30 zero compassion for, you know, kinism and racism. And, you know, and I think that right now that

00:22:39 you're right. I think the Overton window is moving. I keep thinking about you particularly

00:22:44 because the Overton window is moving in such a way, some things, you know, all of it in God's

00:22:48 providence and some things good and then some things bad. It's, you know, a reaction, an

00:22:53 overreaction and coming out of spite and vengeance. But if this continues to happen,

00:22:58 I think that you have a real potential of being viewed as a moderate, you know, that reasonable, you could be viewed as a reasonable evangelical within the next, you know, five to 10 years.

00:23:09 I know.

00:23:10 That's the kind of thing that makes me wake up screaming.

00:23:14 That's the thing that keeps you up at night.

00:23:16 I've actually seen that.

00:23:17 I've seen that starting to develop.

00:23:21 And there's a certain area, there's a certain respect in which I want that to be the case.

00:23:27 so um let's say things get somebody once said about an ethnic war uh there's one one thing

00:23:35 about an ethnic war you don't have to pick sides uh the other side does that for you

00:23:40 okay you you don't have basically the uh when things come down to the point you can't take

00:23:49 your own personal opinions about whether any of this should have happened and then because of

00:23:54 those opinions walk through a part of a city that is dominated by a group that is at war with people

00:24:02 who look like you. You don't have that luxury, okay? Now, you should have your own thought

00:24:09 through opinions, but you should also be aware of what's going on in the world outside you.

00:24:15 Now, I've wanted to position myself and conduct myself in such a way that if we ever get to the

00:24:24 point where someone says hey can we have peace can we have some peace talks okay who should we

00:24:32 talk who should we talk to on the other side i want to be the kind of person that they would say

00:24:40 wilson is prepared to be reasonable now being reasonable doesn't should not mean being

00:24:47 compromised but there's a difference between combatants who are fire eaters who they all

00:24:53 they want to do is fight and combatants who understand the principle and you know i would say

00:25:00 be the difference between nathan bedford forest and robert e lee okay so you you've got um i i

00:25:12 want to be the sort of person that when peace is possible without compromise i'm willing to talk

00:25:19 about it because i haven't lost my temper right right um there's some people especially in the

00:25:25 aftermath of the accord thing some people online who just lost their temper and um on both on both

00:25:33 sides on both sides yeah and i don't think it i don't think we're helping anything when we lose

00:25:40 our tempers i completely agree so i all that being said i've got two ideas i want to run by you and

00:25:47 just get your response. So the first one in line of what we're talking about, the dangers of being

00:25:53 a hard kinest and those kinds of, like, yes, we, of course, natural affections are a thing. I love

00:25:57 my wife more than other people's wives. And if I didn't, I'd be in sin. I love my children more

00:26:02 than my neighbor's children and so on and so forth. And the question is how many ripples out

00:26:07 can, circles out, can we go? But there's something to be said for Romans 9 with the apostle Paul,

00:26:13 You know, I'd be willing to go to hell, which I don't know if I could say for anybody personally.

00:26:19 I'm a little bit self-preserving in that regard. 1.00

00:26:22 But, you know, he's willing to go to hell for his kinsmen according to the flesh, his fellow Israelites. 1.00

00:26:26 And so there's something to be said there. 0.62

00:26:28 But when I think of Christian nationalism working, I think one of the reasons why the kinnest conversation keeps coming up is people, it's almost in some ways easier to define. 0.78

00:26:36 This is what I've bumped up against as I've been talking to people, you know, in this orbit. 0.79

00:26:40 it's almost easier to define Christian than, than nation. And, and so some guys are wanting

00:26:47 that ethnoid to, to wrap it around ethnicity. Whereas, whereas I feel, and, and, and I was

00:26:54 looking at that and saying, well, maybe they have a point, you know, and really trying to consider

00:26:57 that and give it a fair shake. But, but what I've landed on is I think part of the problem with

00:27:02 America is just, you know, well, decadence, you know, you, you track empires, the fate of empires

00:27:07 and decadence, and it leads to altruism at a hyper level where you basically have a death wish.

00:27:12 You become suicidal. Everyone else can succeed except for us, self-loathing. It's riddled in

00:27:18 guilt rather than Christian gratitude for the blessings of God. You feel guilty for the 0.79

00:27:22 blessings of God. But all that wrapped into what I think of as not the melting pot of multiple

00:27:27 ethnicities in our nation, but just the extreme amount of immigration. I feel like you can have

00:27:33 20% of the nation that's white and black and 20, you know, 20% that's white, 20% that's black, 0.53

00:27:38 brown, and so on. Um, and, and if we just limited, you know, no illegal immigration,

00:27:44 and then even with, uh, legal immigration, it's vastly limited. And you just let 30 years go by,

00:27:49 uh, or, or let's say 50 to where, um, my grandkids, um, they're like, yeah, we, we, um,

00:27:57 grandma and grandpa that, you know, or grandpa, he fought the same wars. They worked in the same

00:28:01 jobs they went to the same churches um and we're we're american we have this shared history this

00:28:06 and and that would be enough did you i don't feel like it needs to all be white or it needs to all

00:28:11 be i think it just it's that shared history it needs time it can be different pigment but but

00:28:17 there it does need to be a similar culture there's a commonality of not skin pigment uh pigment not

00:28:24 color but culture and and part of for that to happen um requires a um it's a stableness within

00:28:33 and we're just so unstable right now with influx of do you feel like that's that that is absolutely 0.86

00:28:40 the case okay so um one of the things that this is another um we're not our part of our problem

00:28:49 is that we think in simplistic categories.

00:28:51 So, for example, in the New Testament,

00:28:53 the Apostle Paul was of the tribe of Benjamin. 1.00

00:28:57 He was a Jew. 0.86

00:28:59 He was a citizen of Tarsus, no mean city. 0.51

00:29:02 And he was a Roman citizen.

00:29:04 Those are very different layers of allegiance.

00:29:10 Paul was willing to use his Roman citizenship.

00:29:14 He knew his rights, in other words.

00:29:16 He was up on basic Roman civics, and there seems to be a little measure of cavelling about his city, Tarsus, which was in Cilicia. 0.95

00:29:32 And he was a Jew of Jews, circumcised on the eighth day.

00:29:36 so uh when we look at uh when people talk about nationalism or kinism everybody thinks 0.83

00:29:46 immediately that it's a mono-ethnic nation like japan is okay so japan is overwhelmingly

00:29:57 one ethnicity right and and people think well if you're talking about that then that's what 0.95

00:30:04 you've got in mind for America. You want to exclude everybody who doesn't fit your particular 0.99

00:30:13 DNA imprint. Well, I talked to Stephen Wolf about this, and he agreed with me that America, 0.99

00:30:21 Americans, are an ethnic. We have a shared cultural history, language, cuisine, sports teams,

00:30:31 history wars our dads and granddads fought in you know that's that's part of what brings us

00:30:39 all together that sort of thing can form and can have a profound um tie or a profound claim on 1.00

00:30:51 people's allegiance what but what disrupts it is if you bring in immigrants like a flood 0.99

00:30:59 you know at a rate far more uh rapidly than can be assimilated right so so the um the issue is 0.88

00:31:10 not whether a family a white family for example can adopt a black child they most they most

00:31:18 certainly can uh or adopt a mexican child they can and god bless them when they bring them up

00:31:24 in the nurture and admonish the Lord. You know, this is great. But if they adopted 150 Mexican

00:31:31 children, right, then they are not going to do a good job with anybody. They're not going to do a 1.00

00:31:39 good job with their own kids. They're not going to do a good job with the kids that they've brought

00:31:44 in. They're just going to be swamped. They're going to do a terrible job, and the whole thing's

00:31:48 going to blow apart. And so the issue is, so when I say, well, we need to have control of our

00:31:57 borders, it's not because I want to keep people out. It's because I want to make sure that we

00:32:05 have a judicious handling of this so that we can bless the maximum amount of people. So if we should

00:32:15 want we should be a welcoming nation and we should i think be america is a mutt nation right

00:32:22 right we're not monethnic like the japanese or the swedes we are from all over yep and that's

00:32:30 part of our ethnicity that's part of our melting pot identity right but the pot has got to stay hot

00:32:39 enough to melt things right if uh right now we're just making us

00:32:46 a salad with croutons from all over and uh it's not it's going to be only croutons and it's not

00:32:54 going to be a very good salad right we got to get back to the soup and now we need the stroganoff

00:32:58 right yeah we need to focus on food whatever we do whatever it is and it needs to be a hot dish

00:33:04 It needs to be a hot dish with a ladle that we're stirring together.

00:33:08 No, that's very helpful.

00:33:09 I completely agree.

00:33:10 And I think we need people, you know, so give us your tire.

00:33:13 Give us your, you know, I think there's something true in that.

00:33:17 But I think there's also America needs to be for America.

00:33:20 And if America hates America, it's what you've said.

00:33:24 You know, a guy who says, you know, on Mother's Day goes and buys a car that, you know, my mom's the best mom in the world.

00:33:28 That guy has a better understanding when other people appreciate their mom than the guy who says, my mom's the worst mom in the world.

00:33:34 that guy's not going to respect anybody's mom.

00:33:36 And so America needs to be for America.

00:33:38 And that's the best chance that America has in being a benevolent nation,

00:33:41 not a global empire necessarily policing the world,

00:33:45 or as you've said, the Coast Guard, global Coast Guard for the world.

00:33:49 Those days may be over, and that may be in God's providence a good thing,

00:33:52 but America should still be benevolent towards other nations,

00:33:55 whether it rules them with an iron fist.

00:33:58 And that's only going to happen by stemming from America loving America.

00:34:01 And so we want people who come in to not just want to live here, but want to love here.

00:34:07 They don't just want to live in America, but they actually want to love America.

00:34:10 I feel like, for instance, so we have multiple families in our church all the way down in Georgetown, Texas, from Canada that have recently, you know, come over here because Canada has turned into, it's just, you know, Trudeau has lost its ever loving mind and we're happy to have them.

00:34:24 Um, and these are people who still love Canada. Um, but, but they also are working on, um, you

00:34:31 know, developing a love and affection for America, not just benefiting from it, but wanting to be a

00:34:36 blessing to this place and wanting to form an identity with this place. And, and, um, and so

00:34:42 I think people who, who love America having, you know, a mitigated amount of people who are coming

00:34:46 in that actually want to be Americans, not just reap the benefits, but they want to be Americans.

00:34:52 um they want our history to become their history and their grandchildren's history and and i think

00:34:58 you do that and i mean easier said than done but problem solved i i think that that's a big

00:35:04 big part of it so here's the second thing i want to run by you um i think a lot of people with the

00:35:08 christian nationalism thing so the six categories that you've coined is super helpful because i

00:35:13 think that the reason why it's helpful is it's um it's it's uh it's a compelling argument it

00:35:19 forces people to, you know, to actually, you know, to, you know, pretty much everybody has to say,

00:35:24 okay, I'm in this category. So with that, you know, but brass tacks, practically, what does

00:35:29 it look like to be a Christian nationalist? And I've been thinking about that. And I think whether

00:35:33 you get to it through natural law and the Thomism, or whether Thomism, or whether you get

00:35:38 there from a Vantillian, Greg Bonson, as you've said, a general equity theonomy, in both instances,

00:35:44 it seems like what we're advocating for is not just the second table of the law, but all 10

00:35:50 commandments, the civil magistrate, Christ is head of all things, Ephesians 1.22. He's uniquely head

00:35:59 of the church in the sense that the church is the only thing that Christ has died for, but he is

00:36:02 head not exclusively. So uniquely head of the church, not exclusively head of the church,

00:36:06 head of all things, including the state, separation between church and state, but not

00:36:11 christ in state caesar is god's deacon um he needs to legislate and and uphold all 10 commandments

00:36:19 not just the second table but first also but then you bring in that's that's the theonomy

00:36:23 um and you bring in the post-millennialism hurry up and wait and and you said something that i

00:36:30 think bears repeating uh that the state should should perhaps obey the first table of law for

00:36:35 200 years before it enforces it. I thought that was so insightful. And that's what I mean when I

00:36:42 say Christian nationalism. We're not talking about rounding people up who are idolaters

00:36:47 in the next 15 minutes. And even 200 years from now, I think also another thing that you've said

00:36:52 is a clear distinction between crimes and sins. So even then, there's not this breaking into

00:36:59 someone's home because of their private Islam worship, but there is something to be said for

00:37:05 public expressions high places in a nation and again after a couple centuries um and and before

00:37:11 even then at that level before the mosque is under question wouldn't it be the uh the public

00:37:16 teaching of atheism to our children in state schools through evolution that that high place

00:37:21 would come down first and am i on the right track anything you would add to that this is absolutely

00:37:27 right. And the issue is not whether or not we want a society to be conforming to the Ten

00:37:36 Commandments and living under Deuteronomic blessings, because we're walking under the

00:37:45 favor of God and obeying His law. But we have to always remember, and this is the point you

00:37:51 touched on, we have to always remember that when we are talking about suppression of blasphemy,

00:37:56 I would say the first order of business is to suppress the magistrate's ability to blaspheme.

00:38:05 Because in history, the state, the king, the ruling authorities have overwhelmingly used blasphemy codes to impose their blasphemy.

00:38:20 And so we have to fix that problem.

00:38:22 Now, at some point, let's say we postulate some ideal Christian republic 500 years down the road, and some atheist loses his mind and goes down to the town square and starts blaspheming the name of God and the mother of Jesus and, you know, just should he be scooped up and taken in?

00:38:49 Well, yeah, I think that there are places for the prosecution of blasphemy on that level.

00:38:56 But we have to remember that Jesus was executed on a blasphemy charge, right? 0.53

00:39:03 And that was the greatest blasphemy that our race has ever committed.

00:39:09 And we did it in the name of enforcing the law of God.

00:39:18 yeah we we committed the greatest blasphemy ever by silencing blasphemy right by quote unquote

00:39:24 silencing blasphemy and i want to say okay let's fix that problem first let's let's and that means

00:39:33 limited government okay so uh if you if you gave a martian a copy of the u.s constitution

00:39:40 one of the and he read it and read it reread it one of the things he would come away with

00:39:45 And we talked to him afterwards, and we said, what's the central takeaway message that you have from reading our founding document?

00:39:54 He would say the central takeaway message is never trust an American.

00:40:01 Right?

00:40:02 And particularly, never trust an American politician with power.

00:40:08 That's why the separation of powers.

00:40:11 That's why the checks and balances.

00:40:13 We have a, our system was a genius system for spreading the power as thinly as possible.

00:40:20 Okay.

00:40:21 Now, it's true that if you remove from the state the power to blaspheme, they might not be able to handle the occasional rogue blasphemer out here.

00:40:34 But we've got, Christopher Dawson said, the Christian church lives in the light of eternity and can afford to be patient.

00:40:42 and we're post-millennial we want to be patient right and so as we are making our way toward this

00:40:48 better society we want a society in which blasphemy is not tolerated by anybody right

00:40:56 particularly by the state right amen and and to follow up with that so it's you know it's all

00:41:02 all ten commandments uh but hurry up and wait let's uh let's have the state obey the first

00:41:07 table of the law before it enforces the table, uh, second, first table of the law, uh, distinction

00:41:11 between sins and crimes. Um, it's more so public expressions. And again, with, with this waiting

00:41:17 patience, um, public expressions of blasphemy and idolatry. And then the only other thing I wanted

00:41:22 to add to that, that I've also heard you and others Durbin, um, say that I think also is

00:41:27 helpful for people when they're thinking what, what would Christian nationalism, what is this

00:41:30 dystopian gonna look like um uh dystopia uh there's also in terms of case law um so homosexuality

00:41:39 for instance uh and the death penalty um so so five thousand dollar fine and uh and um five years

00:41:48 in prison as a maximum for throwing a candy bar wrapper out my window but i don't know anyone

00:41:53 who's been in jail for five years for littering right um and so um i think could you could you

00:42:00 talk about that a little bit in terms of looking at the civil codes given to Israel and knowing

00:42:05 that we hold to the general equity, and that's a thoroughly reformed confessional. That's

00:42:09 Westminster. It's 1689 on my end of things. So it's not a one-step process that you take the

00:42:15 civil codes in Israel and you just carry them over and drop them in America in 2022. But it's

00:42:19 a two-step process. It's not that hard. You take the civil code and you take it not to America,

00:42:24 but you take it first back to the Ten Commandments as the blueprint, the moral law of God that

00:42:29 ultimately is stemming to these codes. And then you apply that given culture and technology and

00:42:33 these kinds of things in America. And then even then looking at the penalties now, not the codes,

00:42:38 but the penalties for breaking the codes, viewing these within a maximum penalty mindset. Could you

00:42:45 talk about that for a moment? Yeah. So when we talk about biblical law, we have to say it's not

00:42:53 just when people think theonomy, they think that we're going to get a big crane, lift the Mosaic

00:42:58 code and carry you know bring it over and drop it down on 21st century america uh no that's not

00:43:06 how it works because we're not just we're taking the content of the laws we are imitating and

00:43:12 taking over the entire legal system okay so uh the law of moses was a case law system

00:43:21 right it was a common our name for it is common law all right so uh case law system means that you

00:43:30 have a particular law that embodies a principle you shall not muzzle the ox when it treads out

00:43:37 the corn okay and every pastor likes the general equity of that right right and and that's what

00:43:45 paul is applying in the new testament is the general equity of that exactly a laborer is

00:43:49 worthy of his hire now what happens is if i'm um if i'm my joke is if i were president

00:43:57 and what a glorious three days that would be right um but if i had the authority to

00:44:04 make law i would not um make it illegal in the state of idaho to boil a kid in its mother's milk

00:44:12 and a kid being a baby goat not a not a kid yeah a kid being a baby goat right yeah just

00:44:18 I wouldn't do that.

00:44:20 The reason I wouldn't make that against the law is because nobody's doing that.

00:44:24 It's not an issue.

00:44:26 It was an issue back in the day.

00:44:28 But what's the principle?

00:44:29 What's the general equity of that law?

00:44:31 Well, you shall not take that which was given by God as nourishment and life and turn it into an instrument of death.

00:44:40 That's right. 0.95

00:44:40 So it was lawful to take the baby goat and kill it and eat it. 0.98

00:44:46 That was lawful.

00:44:47 But you could not liturgically or ritually take his lifeblood, his nourishment, his milk, and make that the instrument of death.

00:44:56 Right.

00:44:56 You can't do that. 0.99

00:44:57 So let's say I'm a Christian judge in a theonomic republic, and I hand down a decision that prohibits women from serving in combat roles. 1.00

00:45:11 Okay. 0.86

00:45:11 I could hand down a decision, and because it's a theonomic republic, I could say, no, women are not to serve in combat roles, and then cite the reference from Exodus, I think it's in Deuteronomy also, you should not boil a kid in a smother's milk. 0.58

00:45:26 Why? 1.00

00:45:26 Because women are life givers. 1.00

00:45:28 Right. 1.00

00:45:28 Do not turn life givers into death dealers. 1.00

00:45:31 okay so and that's what that's also why a lot of the warrior princess uh spy deadly female

00:45:41 is kinky but um it's kinky that way they're trying to turn nurturers women life givers

00:45:48 into death dealers and uh and so that's the general equity of it now when you do this

00:45:56 what King Alfred did, King Alfred took basically the laws of Deuteronomy and made them the laws

00:46:03 of England. And that worked because England was an agrarian society, much like Israel was.

00:46:13 But that was the beginning of our common law system. And so common law doesn't require you

00:46:20 to have something on the books that we again i wouldn't make a law saying you have to have a

00:46:28 parapet around the roof of your house right because in our society nobody goes up there

00:46:33 right and every two-story structure aka a balcony we do it we already do it correct and if you

00:46:40 didn't do it and one of your dinner guests fell off a second story deck then you should be liable

00:46:46 at law for the damages, and I would have no problem as a judge citing the scripture.

00:46:53 Right.

00:46:54 The scripture is authoritative, because that's because a common law system or a case law system

00:47:00 is a system that's based on precedent. So in Alfred's time, let's say a widow in Sussex

00:47:08 had a case where the neighbor's dog ate her chicken and it went to court and the case was

00:47:17 decided. And then 50 years later, someone's ox gored the neighbor's dog. The judge in that case

00:47:24 would look back at the precedent and he would see the principle, he would see the general equity of

00:47:30 the previous decision and apply it in this new situation. As opposed to the secularist who wants

00:47:36 to have a volume bound volumes of regulations that anticipate every contingency and if they

00:47:43 didn't anticipate it properly and you found the loophole you're you're off scot-free because

00:47:51 they're trying to be omniscient they're trying to be omnipotent they're trying to be god right

00:47:56 right with um going back to the you know you shall not boil a kid a baby goat in his mother's

00:48:02 milk, the instrument that God gave to be nourishment and life should not be used as an instrument of

00:48:07 death. With that, you gave the example of women in combat, fantastic example. Another one that

00:48:12 I've actually used pastorally is that same verse, the kid and the mother's milk, in terms of the

00:48:20 hormonal birth control pill. There's a difference in a condom. There's a difference in planned

00:48:29 abstinence, um, uh, periodically. There's a difference in stopping an egg from being

00:48:34 fertilized versus the birth, um, hormonal birth control pill, which has three primary functions,

00:48:40 but, but the third being, uh, that actually thins the uterine wall. It takes, so, so if a woman is 0.98

00:48:45 meant to nurture, a woman's womb is meant to be a context of conducive to creating life, sustaining 0.97

00:48:53 life giving life um and so to take that womb and make it a death chamber um so i i would look at 0.52

00:49:01 that so i'm i'm asking you is is that fair use to say uh this is why there may be other ethical

00:49:07 forms of of of planning um in terms of children um but this is not one of them and this is why

00:49:14 correct the womb is a living room for the unborn right it's a living room okay for the unborn

00:49:21 And it's designed by God to be a place of hospitality. 0.64

00:49:29 It's designed by God to be a bed.

00:49:33 We just had these awful murders here in Moscow where these college students were murdered in their beds, which is a terrible place to be murdered.

00:49:42 It's never good to be murdered anywhere.

00:49:45 But there's a particular grievousness about being murdered in a place where you ought to be, if there's any place on earth where you ought to be safe, it's in your own bed, right?

00:49:58 And what these abortion pills do is they turn that living room into a death chamber.

00:50:06 They turn the bed that ought to be hospitable and welcoming into a place that's inhospitable and unwelcoming.

00:50:14 And yes, and I would cite that verse in a decision like that.

00:50:18 Right. And there's multiple verses that we could cite, but that would be one verse that we could use in a general equity fashion.

00:50:25 Fantastic. Any final thoughts for our listeners, Pastor Doug?

00:50:27 No, this is going to be a rodeo. Over the next five years, I believe that we are going to see a lot of conflict, a lot of excitement, a lot of misunderstanding. And I would just tell your viewers, your listeners, to not lose their tempers. Keep cool. Love God. Worship Him.

00:50:48 don't take the bait. Don't take the bait. Right. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And going back,

00:50:55 circling back around to the Kinnis problem. Don't, don't go for quick fixes, cheap solutions. 0.91

00:51:03 The kind of thing that we need, the only way out for us is Christ. It's Christ or chaos.

00:51:09 It's not white people or chaos. It's Christ or chaos. Amen. Amen. Well said. Well, thank you so 0.96

00:51:16 much as always for coming on the show. I know that our listeners and myself personally benefit

00:51:20 immensely from your ministry, your writing, your preaching, all those kinds of things. And we pray

00:51:24 that for this rollercoaster over the next five years, we pray that even if it's a rollercoaster

00:51:30 for 15 years, that you would be on the rollercoaster with us. We'd like to have you on the

00:51:34 ride. So keep it up. Thanks so much for listening. But real quick, before you go, do us a small

00:51:40 favor, take a moment and leave us a five-star review if you enjoyed the show. This is undoubtedly

00:51:46 the best way that you can help us get this biblically faithful content to as many people

00:51:51 as possible. Thanks so much.

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The NXR Podcast - December 06, 2022

THEOLOGY APPLIED - Are Christian Nationalists About To Have Egg On Our Face？ w Doug Wilson

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