00:10:17.300So what I'd like to do in response to this is sort of maybe shift the metaphor that we use on getting from here to there.
00:10:26.120Because I think a lot of people freak out because they have the wrong metaphor running in their head.
00:10:30.800And then talk about what I think the challenge of kinism and things like that present to us.
00:10:40.560So when conservatives, Berkeyan conservatives like myself, are suspicious of ideology, an ideologue is someone who's got the whole thing mapped out.
00:10:54.900And give him the plans, give him a flag and a direction to march and a gun to shoot.
00:11:00.080And he's going to go try to implement that ideology.
00:16:09.300And when it comes to ethnicity, the New Testament is filled with references to, in Christ, there's neither Jew nor Greek, slave, free, and so on.
00:16:23.280Now, Stephen is absolutely right that the fall did not alter basic human relationships.
00:16:34.740It's not—Adam and Eve, after the fall, were still married.
00:16:39.300They didn't have to get married again in a post-lapsarian world.
00:16:49.440The children that they have, if they had had unfallen children, the children would have been children, right?
00:16:58.500Brought up and nursed by Eve and brought up by Adam.
00:17:03.620And after the fall, that's what happened.
00:17:05.720And so natural relations at that level, like that, are sort of a constant.
00:17:11.380But idolatry, because of the fall, idolatry comes in.
00:17:16.400Okay, so how do you, for example, thread the needle that Stephen wants us to thread and that I want to thread of respecting and honoring your natural relations out past your grandparents?
00:17:53.540And I'm with Stephen completely in his definition of that.
00:17:58.020But in a fallen world, let's say you are trying to get from the curry to the stroganoff in a Confucian country where respect for your parents is all tied up with ancestor worship.
00:19:23.560So I believe that the danger is because of the woke jihad where people of my background, ethnic makeup, white Anglo-Saxon Protestant or middle class or hillbilly elegy material, people like that have been vilified for a few decades now.
00:19:53.560And because the church at large, the Reformed Evangelical Church at large, has gone limp on this, the people in that category feel manifestly unprotected.
00:20:11.220And they start listening to alternative voices who can give them an explanation for this treatment that they're getting and instruction on how to respond.
00:20:22.120and there are different shades of red pill right right uh some deep some red pills are really really
00:20:31.320red and some red pills are just slightly pink but there are there are a lot of people who are now
00:20:37.840in a position where they are listening to kinists and as much as i repudiate the kinist take
00:20:46.460my foundational accusation for the existence of kinism lies with the soft left the soft woke
00:20:54.500evangelical left they're the ones who created this yes 100 yep i i completely agree um and and
00:21:03.520we see that i mean we've seen that in real time with thomas accord right which was just a hit on
00:21:07.760stephen wolf um you know and it's and it's sad what happened to him and yet at the same time it's
00:21:12.560also, um, that's why we have to have self-control. Um, and just as a practical tip, um, one of the
00:21:19.960guys in my church, as we were talking about the situation, he said, it's a good time to remember
00:21:23.780that burner accounts are meant to eventually be burned. Um, you, you know, you want to, you want
00:21:28.280to get rid of those from time to time. I, I'm not against the pseudonyms. I mean, we have a rich
00:21:31.700history, you know, within the American tradition and, and beyond, you know, writing under a pseudonym,
00:21:36.600But it has bit quite a few Christians in the butt.
00:21:43.600I think he went under the pseudonym William Wallace II and got in quite a bit of trouble.
00:21:48.600But all that being said, you know, it's this hit on Stephen Wolf, which by proxy, that's also a hit on canon.
00:21:56.820And it usually comes to a head with Voldemort, you know, he who should not be named, yours truly.
00:22:02.740you know but you know so that that's kind of the the play but isn't it remarkable and you
00:22:08.900mentioned this and some other guys that I've been talking to you know who had a relationship with
00:22:12.920Thomas you know and talking to offline they you know they they're not condoning racism but they
00:22:19.620are you know sympathetic and compassionate and the way that a right way that a Christian should
00:22:24.540be and saying isn't it remarkable how there's there's so much compassion for sodomy but there's
00:22:30.980zero compassion for, you know, kinism and racism. And, you know, and I think that right now that
00:22:39.980you're right. I think the Overton window is moving. I keep thinking about you particularly
00:22:44.020because the Overton window is moving in such a way, some things, you know, all of it in God's
00:22:48.680providence and some things good and then some things bad. It's, you know, a reaction, an
00:22:53.560overreaction and coming out of spite and vengeance. But if this continues to happen,
00:22:58.680I think that you have a real potential of being viewed as a moderate, you know, that reasonable, you could be viewed as a reasonable evangelical within the next, you know, five to 10 years.
00:23:21.240And there's a certain area, there's a certain respect in which I want that to be the case.
00:23:27.420so um let's say things get somebody once said about an ethnic war uh there's one one thing
00:23:35.580about an ethnic war you don't have to pick sides uh the other side does that for you
00:23:40.540okay you you don't have basically the uh when things come down to the point you can't take
00:23:49.500your own personal opinions about whether any of this should have happened and then because of
00:23:54.820those opinions walk through a part of a city that is dominated by a group that is at war with people
00:24:02.340who look like you. You don't have that luxury, okay? Now, you should have your own thought
00:24:09.880through opinions, but you should also be aware of what's going on in the world outside you.
00:24:15.780Now, I've wanted to position myself and conduct myself in such a way that if we ever get to the
00:24:24.680point where someone says hey can we have peace can we have some peace talks okay who should we
00:24:32.900talk who should we talk to on the other side i want to be the kind of person that they would say
00:24:40.080wilson is prepared to be reasonable now being reasonable doesn't should not mean being
00:24:47.140compromised but there's a difference between combatants who are fire eaters who they all
00:24:53.640they want to do is fight and combatants who understand the principle and you know i would say
00:25:00.720be the difference between nathan bedford forest and robert e lee okay so you you've got um i i
00:25:12.780want to be the sort of person that when peace is possible without compromise i'm willing to talk
00:25:19.740about it because i haven't lost my temper right right um there's some people especially in the
00:25:25.700aftermath of the accord thing some people online who just lost their temper and um on both on both
00:25:33.640sides on both sides yeah and i don't think it i don't think we're helping anything when we lose
00:25:40.300our tempers i completely agree so i all that being said i've got two ideas i want to run by you and
00:25:47.260just get your response. So the first one in line of what we're talking about, the dangers of being
00:25:53.420a hard kinest and those kinds of, like, yes, we, of course, natural affections are a thing. I love
00:25:57.640my wife more than other people's wives. And if I didn't, I'd be in sin. I love my children more
00:26:02.740than my neighbor's children and so on and so forth. And the question is how many ripples out
00:26:07.500can, circles out, can we go? But there's something to be said for Romans 9 with the apostle Paul,
00:26:13.380You know, I'd be willing to go to hell, which I don't know if I could say for anybody personally.
00:26:19.120I'm a little bit self-preserving in that regard.
00:26:22.100But, you know, he's willing to go to hell for his kinsmen according to the flesh, his fellow Israelites.
00:26:26.720And so there's something to be said there.
00:26:28.300But when I think of Christian nationalism working, I think one of the reasons why the kinnest conversation keeps coming up is people, it's almost in some ways easier to define.
00:26:36.960This is what I've bumped up against as I've been talking to people, you know, in this orbit.
00:26:40.880it's almost easier to define Christian than, than nation. And, and so some guys are wanting
00:26:47.980that ethnoid to, to wrap it around ethnicity. Whereas, whereas I feel, and, and, and I was
00:26:54.160looking at that and saying, well, maybe they have a point, you know, and really trying to consider
00:26:57.080that and give it a fair shake. But, but what I've landed on is I think part of the problem with
00:27:02.260America is just, you know, well, decadence, you know, you, you track empires, the fate of empires
00:27:07.220and decadence, and it leads to altruism at a hyper level where you basically have a death wish.
00:27:12.760You become suicidal. Everyone else can succeed except for us, self-loathing. It's riddled in
00:27:18.380guilt rather than Christian gratitude for the blessings of God. You feel guilty for the
00:27:22.320blessings of God. But all that wrapped into what I think of as not the melting pot of multiple
00:27:27.300ethnicities in our nation, but just the extreme amount of immigration. I feel like you can have
00:27:33.26020% of the nation that's white and black and 20, you know, 20% that's white, 20% that's black,
00:27:38.820brown, and so on. Um, and, and if we just limited, you know, no illegal immigration,
00:27:44.500and then even with, uh, legal immigration, it's vastly limited. And you just let 30 years go by,
00:27:49.960uh, or, or let's say 50 to where, um, my grandkids, um, they're like, yeah, we, we, um,
00:27:57.300grandma and grandpa that, you know, or grandpa, he fought the same wars. They worked in the same
00:28:01.420jobs they went to the same churches um and we're we're american we have this shared history this
00:28:06.460and and that would be enough did you i don't feel like it needs to all be white or it needs to all
00:28:11.760be i think it just it's that shared history it needs time it can be different pigment but but
00:28:17.960there it does need to be a similar culture there's a commonality of not skin pigment uh pigment not
00:28:24.280color but culture and and part of for that to happen um requires a um it's a stableness within
00:28:33.020and we're just so unstable right now with influx of do you feel like that's that that is absolutely
00:28:40.760the case okay so um one of the things that this is another um we're not our part of our problem
00:28:49.000is that we think in simplistic categories.
00:28:51.880So, for example, in the New Testament,
00:28:53.860the Apostle Paul was of the tribe of Benjamin.
00:33:10.960And I think we need people, you know, so give us your tire.
00:33:13.840Give us your, you know, I think there's something true in that.
00:33:17.620But I think there's also America needs to be for America.
00:33:20.980And if America hates America, it's what you've said.
00:33:24.020You know, a guy who says, you know, on Mother's Day goes and buys a car that, you know, my mom's the best mom in the world.
00:33:28.360That guy has a better understanding when other people appreciate their mom than the guy who says, my mom's the worst mom in the world.
00:33:34.380that guy's not going to respect anybody's mom.
00:33:36.400And so America needs to be for America.
00:33:38.380And that's the best chance that America has in being a benevolent nation,
00:33:41.960not a global empire necessarily policing the world,
00:33:45.780or as you've said, the Coast Guard, global Coast Guard for the world.
00:33:49.420Those days may be over, and that may be in God's providence a good thing,
00:33:52.400but America should still be benevolent towards other nations,
00:33:55.980whether it rules them with an iron fist.
00:33:58.600And that's only going to happen by stemming from America loving America.
00:34:01.780And so we want people who come in to not just want to live here, but want to love here.
00:34:07.380They don't just want to live in America, but they actually want to love America.
00:34:10.840I feel like, for instance, so we have multiple families in our church all the way down in Georgetown, Texas, from Canada that have recently, you know, come over here because Canada has turned into, it's just, you know, Trudeau has lost its ever loving mind and we're happy to have them.
00:34:24.740Um, and these are people who still love Canada. Um, but, but they also are working on, um, you
00:34:31.640know, developing a love and affection for America, not just benefiting from it, but wanting to be a
00:34:36.920blessing to this place and wanting to form an identity with this place. And, and, um, and so
00:34:42.220I think people who, who love America having, you know, a mitigated amount of people who are coming
00:34:46.880in that actually want to be Americans, not just reap the benefits, but they want to be Americans.
00:34:52.160um they want our history to become their history and their grandchildren's history and and i think
00:34:58.560you do that and i mean easier said than done but problem solved i i think that that's a big
00:35:04.320big part of it so here's the second thing i want to run by you um i think a lot of people with the
00:35:08.620christian nationalism thing so the six categories that you've coined is super helpful because i
00:35:13.860think that the reason why it's helpful is it's um it's it's uh it's a compelling argument it
00:35:19.500forces people to, you know, to actually, you know, to, you know, pretty much everybody has to say,
00:35:24.460okay, I'm in this category. So with that, you know, but brass tacks, practically, what does
00:35:29.520it look like to be a Christian nationalist? And I've been thinking about that. And I think whether
00:35:33.220you get to it through natural law and the Thomism, or whether Thomism, or whether you get
00:35:38.060there from a Vantillian, Greg Bonson, as you've said, a general equity theonomy, in both instances,
00:35:44.940it seems like what we're advocating for is not just the second table of the law, but all 10
00:35:50.820commandments, the civil magistrate, Christ is head of all things, Ephesians 1.22. He's uniquely head
00:35:59.100of the church in the sense that the church is the only thing that Christ has died for, but he is
00:36:02.960head not exclusively. So uniquely head of the church, not exclusively head of the church,
00:36:06.820head of all things, including the state, separation between church and state, but not
00:36:11.960christ in state caesar is god's deacon um he needs to legislate and and uphold all 10 commandments
00:36:19.360not just the second table but first also but then you bring in that's that's the theonomy
00:36:23.960um and you bring in the post-millennialism hurry up and wait and and you said something that i
00:36:30.160think bears repeating uh that the state should should perhaps obey the first table of law for
00:36:35.720200 years before it enforces it. I thought that was so insightful. And that's what I mean when I
00:36:42.080say Christian nationalism. We're not talking about rounding people up who are idolaters
00:36:47.160in the next 15 minutes. And even 200 years from now, I think also another thing that you've said
00:36:52.920is a clear distinction between crimes and sins. So even then, there's not this breaking into
00:36:59.620someone's home because of their private Islam worship, but there is something to be said for
00:37:05.360public expressions high places in a nation and again after a couple centuries um and and before
00:37:11.720even then at that level before the mosque is under question wouldn't it be the uh the public
00:37:16.500teaching of atheism to our children in state schools through evolution that that high place
00:37:21.360would come down first and am i on the right track anything you would add to that this is absolutely
00:37:27.140right. And the issue is not whether or not we want a society to be conforming to the Ten
00:37:36.340Commandments and living under Deuteronomic blessings, because we're walking under the
00:37:45.960favor of God and obeying His law. But we have to always remember, and this is the point you
00:37:51.460touched on, we have to always remember that when we are talking about suppression of blasphemy,
00:37:56.500I would say the first order of business is to suppress the magistrate's ability to blaspheme.
00:38:05.840Because in history, the state, the king, the ruling authorities have overwhelmingly used blasphemy codes to impose their blasphemy.
00:38:22.660Now, at some point, let's say we postulate some ideal Christian republic 500 years down the road, and some atheist loses his mind and goes down to the town square and starts blaspheming the name of God and the mother of Jesus and, you know, just should he be scooped up and taken in?
00:38:49.000Well, yeah, I think that there are places for the prosecution of blasphemy on that level.
00:38:56.220But we have to remember that Jesus was executed on a blasphemy charge, right?
00:39:03.820And that was the greatest blasphemy that our race has ever committed.
00:39:09.260And we did it in the name of enforcing the law of God.
00:39:18.580yeah we we committed the greatest blasphemy ever by silencing blasphemy right by quote unquote
00:39:24.540silencing blasphemy and i want to say okay let's fix that problem first let's let's and that means
00:39:33.660limited government okay so uh if you if you gave a martian a copy of the u.s constitution
00:39:40.600one of the and he read it and read it reread it one of the things he would come away with
00:39:45.620And we talked to him afterwards, and we said, what's the central takeaway message that you have from reading our founding document?
00:39:54.620He would say the central takeaway message is never trust an American.
00:40:21.520Now, it's true that if you remove from the state the power to blaspheme, they might not be able to handle the occasional rogue blasphemer out here.
00:40:34.500But we've got, Christopher Dawson said, the Christian church lives in the light of eternity and can afford to be patient.
00:40:42.020and we're post-millennial we want to be patient right and so as we are making our way toward this
00:40:48.280better society we want a society in which blasphemy is not tolerated by anybody right
00:40:56.520particularly by the state right amen and and to follow up with that so it's you know it's all
00:41:02.780all ten commandments uh but hurry up and wait let's uh let's have the state obey the first
00:41:07.580table of the law before it enforces the table, uh, second, first table of the law, uh, distinction
00:41:11.880between sins and crimes. Um, it's more so public expressions. And again, with, with this waiting
00:41:17.820patience, um, public expressions of blasphemy and idolatry. And then the only other thing I wanted
00:41:22.880to add to that, that I've also heard you and others Durbin, um, say that I think also is
00:41:27.100helpful for people when they're thinking what, what would Christian nationalism, what is this
00:41:30.960dystopian gonna look like um uh dystopia uh there's also in terms of case law um so homosexuality
00:41:39.540for instance uh and the death penalty um so so five thousand dollar fine and uh and um five years
00:41:48.160in prison as a maximum for throwing a candy bar wrapper out my window but i don't know anyone
00:41:53.680who's been in jail for five years for littering right um and so um i think could you could you
00:42:00.100talk about that a little bit in terms of looking at the civil codes given to Israel and knowing
00:42:05.240that we hold to the general equity, and that's a thoroughly reformed confessional. That's
00:42:09.700Westminster. It's 1689 on my end of things. So it's not a one-step process that you take the
00:42:15.380civil codes in Israel and you just carry them over and drop them in America in 2022. But it's
00:42:19.800a two-step process. It's not that hard. You take the civil code and you take it not to America,
00:42:24.520but you take it first back to the Ten Commandments as the blueprint, the moral law of God that
00:42:29.000ultimately is stemming to these codes. And then you apply that given culture and technology and
00:42:33.480these kinds of things in America. And then even then looking at the penalties now, not the codes,
00:42:38.700but the penalties for breaking the codes, viewing these within a maximum penalty mindset. Could you
00:42:45.780talk about that for a moment? Yeah. So when we talk about biblical law, we have to say it's not
00:42:53.620just when people think theonomy, they think that we're going to get a big crane, lift the Mosaic
00:42:58.760code and carry you know bring it over and drop it down on 21st century america uh no that's not
00:43:06.440how it works because we're not just we're taking the content of the laws we are imitating and
00:43:12.780taking over the entire legal system okay so uh the law of moses was a case law system
00:43:21.860right it was a common our name for it is common law all right so uh case law system means that you
00:43:30.940have a particular law that embodies a principle you shall not muzzle the ox when it treads out
00:43:37.460the corn okay and every pastor likes the general equity of that right right and and that's what
00:43:45.240paul is applying in the new testament is the general equity of that exactly a laborer is
00:43:49.800worthy of his hire now what happens is if i'm um if i'm my joke is if i were president
00:43:57.580and what a glorious three days that would be right um but if i had the authority to
00:44:04.080make law i would not um make it illegal in the state of idaho to boil a kid in its mother's milk
00:44:12.140and a kid being a baby goat not a not a kid yeah a kid being a baby goat right yeah just
00:45:11.720I could hand down a decision, and because it's a theonomic republic, I could say, no, women are not to serve in combat roles, and then cite the reference from Exodus, I think it's in Deuteronomy also, you should not boil a kid in a smother's milk.
00:49:33.040We just had these awful murders here in Moscow where these college students were murdered in their beds, which is a terrible place to be murdered.
00:49:42.900It's never good to be murdered anywhere.
00:49:45.300But there's a particular grievousness about being murdered in a place where you ought to be, if there's any place on earth where you ought to be safe, it's in your own bed, right?
00:49:58.580And what these abortion pills do is they turn that living room into a death chamber.
00:50:06.420They turn the bed that ought to be hospitable and welcoming into a place that's inhospitable and unwelcoming.
00:50:14.860And yes, and I would cite that verse in a decision like that.
00:50:18.840Right. And there's multiple verses that we could cite, but that would be one verse that we could use in a general equity fashion.
00:50:25.000Fantastic. Any final thoughts for our listeners, Pastor Doug?
00:50:27.540No, this is going to be a rodeo. Over the next five years, I believe that we are going to see a lot of conflict, a lot of excitement, a lot of misunderstanding. And I would just tell your viewers, your listeners, to not lose their tempers. Keep cool. Love God. Worship Him.
00:50:48.060don't take the bait. Don't take the bait. Right. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And going back,
00:50:55.460circling back around to the Kinnis problem. Don't, don't go for quick fixes, cheap solutions.
00:51:03.280The kind of thing that we need, the only way out for us is Christ. It's Christ or chaos.
00:51:09.360It's not white people or chaos. It's Christ or chaos. Amen. Amen. Well said. Well, thank you so
00:51:16.100much as always for coming on the show. I know that our listeners and myself personally benefit
00:51:20.520immensely from your ministry, your writing, your preaching, all those kinds of things. And we pray
00:51:24.580that for this rollercoaster over the next five years, we pray that even if it's a rollercoaster
00:51:30.500for 15 years, that you would be on the rollercoaster with us. We'd like to have you on the
00:51:34.320ride. So keep it up. Thanks so much for listening. But real quick, before you go, do us a small
00:51:40.520favor, take a moment and leave us a five-star review if you enjoyed the show. This is undoubtedly
00:51:46.220the best way that you can help us get this biblically faithful content to as many people