In this episode of Theology Applied, Pastor Joel Webin sits down with a man who must not be named Doug Wilson to discuss Christian Nationalism and its role in the modern world. Doug Wilson is a former Marine and U.S. Army veteran who served in both the Marine Corps and the Army. He is a pastor of a small reformed church and a founder of a coffee company, Squirrely Joe's, where he and his wife Rachel believe that Christians should do business with other likeminded Christians.
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00:16:09.040So I want to talk in terms of ethnicity.
00:16:12.440Right. And when it comes to ethnicity, the New Testament is filled with references to, in Christ, there's neither Jew nor Greek, slave, free, and so on.
00:16:26.960Now, Stephen is absolutely right that the fall did not alter basic human relationships. Adam and Eve, after the fall, were still married.
00:16:42.440again they didn't have to get married again in a in a post-lapsarian world they were married before
00:16:50.280they're married after uh the children that they have if they had had unfallen children
00:16:57.340the children would have been children right right um brought up and nursed by adam and
00:17:04.460nursed by eve and brought up by adam um and after the fall that's what happened so natural relations
00:17:10.620at that level like that are sort of a constant. But idolatry, because of the fall, idolatry comes
00:17:18.420in. Okay, so how do you, how do you, for example, thread the needle that Stephen wants us to thread
00:17:27.640and that I want to thread of respecting and honoring your natural relations out past your
00:17:35.820grandparents okay uh your your clan your tribe especially you know unfallen world where nobody's
00:17:44.520dying right you can go visit your great great great great grandma and uh so you've got that
00:17:53.860situation um that's one thing and i'm with steven completely in his definition of that
00:18:01.700But in a fallen world, let's say you are trying to get from the curry to the stroganoff in a Confucian country, where respect for your parents is all tied up with ancestor worship.
00:28:45.720So, one of the things that this is another, we're not, part of our problem is that we think in simplistic categories.
00:28:55.540So, for example, in the New Testament, the Apostle Paul was of the tribe of Benjamin, he was a Jew, he was a citizen of Tarsus, no mean city, and he was a Roman citizen.
00:29:08.340Now, those are very different layers of allegiance.
00:29:12.440Paul was willing to use his Roman citizenship.
00:29:18.340He knew his rights, in other words.0.82
00:29:20.900He was up on basic Roman civics, and he was—there seems to be a little measure of cavelling0.90
00:29:29.640or about his city, Tarsus, which was in Cilicia, and he was a Jew of Jews, circumcised on the0.53
00:29:39.700So, when we look at, when people talk about nationalism or kinism, everybody thinks immediately that it's a mono-ethnic nation like Japan is.
00:29:58.060So, Japan is overwhelmingly one ethnicity.0.90
00:30:02.700And people think, well, if you're talking about that, then that's what you've got in mind for America. You want to exclude everybody who doesn't fit your particular DNA imprint.0.97
00:30:19.460Well, I talked to Stephen Wolfe about this, and he agreed with me that America, Americans, are an ethnic.
00:30:28.420We have a shared cultural history, language, cuisine, sports teams, history, wars our dads and granddads fought in.
00:30:40.460You know, that's part of what brings us all together.
00:30:44.020That sort of thing can form and can have a profound tie or a profound claim on people's allegiance.1.00
00:30:57.180But what disrupts it is if you bring in immigrants like a flood at a rate far more rapidly than can be assimilated.1.00
00:31:10.120Right. So the issue is not whether a family, a white family, for example, can adopt a black child. They most certainly can. Or adopt a Mexican child. They can, and God bless them when they bring them up in the nurture and admonish the Lord. You know, this is great.0.97
00:31:30.340but if they adopted 150 mexican children right right right then they are not going to do a good1.00
00:31:39.740job with anybody they're not going to do a good job with their own kids they're not going to do0.95
00:31:45.400a job a good job with the kids that they've brought in they're just going to be swamped
00:31:49.820they're going to do a terrible job and the whole thing's going to blow apart yes and and so the
00:31:55.100issue is uh so when i say that well we need to have control of our borders it's not because i
00:32:03.420want to keep people out it's because i want to make sure that we have a judicious handling of
00:32:12.120this so that we can bless the maximum amount of people so if we should want we should be a
00:32:19.740welcoming nation and we should i think be america is a mutt nation right right we're not mono-ethnic
00:32:29.100like the japanese or the swedes we are from all over yep and that's part of our ethnicity that's
00:32:37.120part of our melting pot identity right but the pot has got to stay hot enough to melt things
00:32:44.520right if uh right now we're just making us uh a salad with croutons from all over
00:32:53.460and uh it's not it's going to be only croutons and it's not going to be a very good salad right
00:32:59.620we got to get back to the soup and now we need the stroganoff right yeah we need to focus on
00:33:04.860food whatever we do whatever it is and it needs to be a hot dish it needs to be a hot dish with a
00:33:10.080with a ladle that we're starting to get. No, that's very helpful. I completely agree.
00:33:14.620And I think we need people, you know, so give us your tire, give us your, you know,
00:33:18.540I think there's something true in that, but I think there's also, America needs to be for
00:33:24.020America. And if America hates America, it's what you've said, you know, a guy who says,
00:33:28.660you know, on Mother's Day goes and buys a car that, you know, my mom's the best mom in the
00:33:31.860world. That guy has a better understanding when other people appreciate their mom than the guy
00:33:35.880who says, my mom's the worst mom in the world. That guy's not going to respect anybody's mom.
00:33:39.940And so America needs to be for America, and that's the best chance that America has in being a benevolent nation, not a global empire necessarily, policing the world, or as you've said, the Coast Guard, global Coast Guard for the world.
00:33:53.080Those days may be over, and that may be in God's providence a good thing, but America should still be benevolent towards other nations, whether it rules them with an iron fist.
00:34:02.260And that's only going to happen by stemming from America loving America.
00:34:05.420And so we want people who come in to not just want to live here, but want to love here.
00:34:11.060They don't just want to live in America, but they actually want to love America.
00:34:14.500I feel like, for instance, so we have multiple families in our church all the way down in
00:34:18.600Georgetown, Texas, from Canada that have recently, you know, come over here because Canada has
00:34:24.540turned into, it's just, you know, Trudeau has lost its ever loving mind and we're happy
00:34:29.000And these are people who still love Canada.
00:34:30.760um but but they also are working on um you know developing a love and affection for america not
00:34:38.240just benefiting from but wanting to be a blessing to this place and wanting to form an identity
00:34:43.540with this place and and um and so i think people who who love america having you know a mitigated
00:34:49.560amount of people who are coming in that actually want to be americans not just reap the benefits
00:34:54.660but they want to be americans um they want our history to become their history and their
00:34:59.700grandchildren's history. And, and I think you do that. And I mean, easier said than done,
00:35:04.880but problem solved. I think that that's a big, big part of it. So here's the second thing I
00:35:09.540want to run by you. I think a lot of people with the Christian nationalism thing. So the six
00:35:13.800categories that you've coined is super helpful because I think that the reason why it's helpful
00:35:19.180is it's, it's, it's, it's a compelling argument. It forces people to, you know, to actually,
00:35:24.920you know, to, you know, pretty much everybody has to say, okay, I'm in this category. So
00:35:30.040with that, you know, but brass tacks practically, what does it look like to be
00:35:34.060a Christian nationalist? And I've been thinking about that. And I think whether you get to it
00:35:37.500through natural law and the Thomism or whether Thomism or whether you get there from a Vantilian,
00:35:42.920Greg Bonson, as you've said, a general equity theonomy in both instances, it seems like
00:35:49.900what we're advocating for is not just the second table of the law, but all Ten Commandments,
00:35:55.740the civil magistrate, Christ is head of all things, Ephesians 1.22. He's uniquely head of
00:36:02.860the church in the sense that the church is the only thing that Christ has died for, but he is
00:36:06.640head exclusively. So uniquely head of the church, not exclusively head of the church, head of all
00:36:11.040things, including the state, separation between church and state, but not Christ and state.
00:36:16.580Caesar is God's deacon. He needs to legislate and uphold all 10 commandments, not just the second
00:36:23.800table, but first also. But then you bring in, that's the theonomy, and you bring in the
00:36:29.800post-millennialism, hurry up and wait. And you said something that I think bears repeating,
00:36:35.340that the state should perhaps obey the first table of law for 200 years before it enforces it.
00:36:41.980I thought that was so insightful. And that's what I mean when I say Christian nationalism. We're not talking about rounding people up who are idolaters in the next 15 minutes. And even 200 years from now, I think also another thing that you've said is a clear distinction between crimes and sins.
00:36:59.240so even then uh there's there's not this going breaking into someone's home because of their0.77
00:37:04.640their private islam uh worship but but there is something to be said for public expressions high
00:37:10.640places in a nation and again after a couple centuries um and and before even then at that
00:37:16.320level before the mosque is under question wouldn't it be the uh the public teaching of atheism to our
00:37:21.760children in state schools through evolution that that high place would come down first and am i on
00:37:26.980the right track anything you would add to that this is absolutely uh right um and the issue is
00:37:34.780not whether or not we want a society to be conforming to the 10 commandments live and living
00:37:42.360under the blessing of the living under deuteronomic blessings right because we're walking under the
00:37:49.640favor of god and obeying his law but we have to always remember and this is the point you touched
00:37:55.400on, we have to always remember that when we are talking about suppression of blasphemy,
00:38:00.480I would say the first order of business is to suppress the magistrate's ability to blaspheme.
00:38:08.940Because in history, the state, the king, the ruling authorities have overwhelmingly
00:38:17.180used blasphemy codes to impose their blasphemy. And so we have to fix that problem. Now,
00:38:27.060at some point, let's say we postulate some ideal Christian republic 500 years down the road,
00:38:35.960and some atheist loses his mind and goes down to the town square and starts blaspheming the name
00:38:46.140of God and the mother of Jesus. And, you know, just should he be scooped up and taken in? Well,
00:38:52.940yeah, I think that there are places for the prosecution of blasphemy on that level. But
00:39:00.200we have to remember that Jesus was executed on a blasphemy charge, right? And that was the greatest1.00
00:39:09.100blasphemy that our race has ever committed and we did it in the name of um enforcing0.81
00:39:19.420the the laws yeah we we committed the greatest blasphemy ever by silencing blasphemy right
00:39:27.200by quote-unquote silencing blasphemy and i want to say okay let's fix that problem first
00:39:33.820let's let's and that means limited government okay so uh if you if you gave a martian a copy
00:39:43.060of the u.s constitution one of the and he read it and read it reread it one of the things he
00:39:48.420would come away with and we talked to him afterwards and we said what's the central
00:39:52.100takeaway message that you you have from reading our founding document he would say the central
00:39:59.520takeaway message is never trust an american right never try and particularly never trust
00:40:08.680an american politician with power right all right that's why that's why the separation of powers
00:40:14.680that's why the checks and balances uh we have a our our system was a genius system for spreading
00:40:21.500the power as thinly as possible okay now it's true that if you remove from the state
00:40:28.760the power to blaspheme they might not be able to handle the occasional rogue blasphemer out here
00:40:37.480right but we've got the christopher dawson said the christian church lives in the light of eternity
00:40:43.740and can afford to be patient and we're post-millennial we want to be patient right
00:40:49.300and so as we are making our way toward this better society we want a society in which
00:40:55.320blasphemy is not tolerated by anybody right particularly by the state right amen and and
00:41:04.520to follow up with that so it's you know it's all all ten commandments uh but hurry up and wait
00:41:08.800let's uh let's have the state obey the first table of the law before it enforces the table
00:41:12.940uh second first table of the law uh distinction between sins and crimes um it's more so public
00:41:18.960expressions and again with with this waiting patience um public expressions of blasphemy
00:41:24.360and idolatry and then the only other thing i wanted to add to that that i've also heard you
00:41:28.140and others durbin um say that i think also is helpful for people when they're thinking what
00:41:32.500what would christian nationalism what is this dystopian gonna look like um uh dystopia uh
00:41:39.200there's also in terms of case law um so homosexuality for instance uh and the death
00:41:44.860penalty um so so five thousand dollar fine and uh and um five years in prison as a maximum for
00:41:53.440throwing a candy bar wrapper out my window, but I don't know anyone who's been in jail for five
00:41:59.000years for littering. Right. Um, and so, um, I think, could you, could you talk about that a
00:42:04.480little bit in terms of looking at, at the civil codes given to Israel and knowing that we hold
00:42:09.740to the general equity and that's a thoroughly reformed confessional that's Westminster. It's
00:42:14.0601689 on my end of things. Um, so it's, it's, it's not a one-step process that you take the civil
00:42:19.220codes in Israel and you just carry them over and drop them in America in 2022. But it's a two-step0.50
00:42:23.860process. It's not that hard. You take the civil code and you take it not to America, but you take
00:42:28.840it first back to the 10 commandments as the blueprint, the moral law of God that ultimately
00:42:33.160is stemming to these codes. And then you apply that given culture and technology and these kinds
00:42:37.440in America. And then even then looking at the penalties now, not the codes, but the penalties
00:42:42.980for breaking the codes, viewing these within a maximum penalty mindset.
00:42:49.180Could you talk about that for a moment?
00:43:07.900No, that's not how it works. Because we're not just taking the content of the laws. We are imitating and taking over the entire legal system. Okay, so the law of Moses was a case law system. Right? It was a common, our name for it is common law.
00:43:30.180All right, so a case law system means that you have a particular law that embodies a principle.
00:43:38.920You shall not muzzle the ox when it treads out the corn.
00:43:42.800And every pastor likes the general equity of that.
00:45:01.620So let's say I'm a Christian judge in a theonomic republic, and I hand down a decision that prohibits women from serving in combat roles.0.99
00:45:14.080okay i could hand down a decision and because it's a theonomic republic i could say no women
00:45:21.240are not to serve in combat roles and then cite the reference from exodus i think it's in0.64
00:45:26.660deuteronomy also you should not boil a kid in this mother's milk why because women are life
00:45:31.460givers right do not turn life givers into death dealers okay so and that's that's also why a lot1.00
00:45:40.180of the warrior princess uh spy deadly female is kinky but um it's kinky that way they're trying
00:45:49.000to turn nurturers women life givers into death dealers and uh and so that's the general equity
00:45:57.560of it now when you do this what king alfred did uh king alfred took basically the laws of
00:46:04.860Deuteronomy and made them the laws of England. And that worked because England was an agrarian
00:46:13.380society, much like Israel was. But that was the beginning of our common law system. And so common0.71
00:46:21.880law doesn't require you to have something on the books that we, again, I wouldn't make a law
00:46:30.760saying you have to have a parapet around the roof of your house right because in our society
00:46:35.660nobody goes up there right and every two-story structure aka a balcony we do it we already do
00:46:43.100it correct and if you didn't do it and one of your dinner guests fell off a second story deck
00:46:48.540then you should be liable at law for the damages and i would have no problem as a judge citing the
00:46:55.460Scripture, the Scripture is authoritative, because that's because a common law system or a case law
00:47:03.780system is a system that's based on precedent. So in Alfred's time, let's say a widow in Sussex
00:47:12.520had a case where the neighbor's dog ate her chicken, and it went to court, and the case was
00:47:20.700decided. And then 50 years later, someone's ox gored the neighbor's dog. The judge in that case
00:47:28.520would look back at the precedent and he would see the principle, he would see the general equity of
00:47:34.140the previous decision and apply it in this new situation. As opposed to the secularist who wants
00:47:40.620to have a volume, bound volumes of regulations that anticipate every contingency. And if they
00:47:47.620didn't anticipate it properly and you found the loophole you're you're off scot-free because
00:47:55.360they're trying to be omniscient they're trying to be omnipotent they're trying to be god right
00:47:59.960right with um going back to the you know you shall not boil a kid a baby goat in his mother's
00:48:06.400milk that the instrument that god gave to be nourishment and life should not be used as an
00:48:10.380instrument of death with that you know you gave the example of women in combat fantastic example
00:48:15.460another one that i i've actually used pastorally is uh that same verse the the kid and um and and
00:48:21.500the uh the mother's milk in terms of um the hormonal birth control pill um there's a difference
00:48:28.520um you know in a condom there's a difference um in in planned abstinence um periodically there's
00:48:36.200a difference in stopping an egg from being fertilized versus the birth um hormonal birth
00:48:41.560control pill which has three primary functions but but the third being that actually thins the
00:48:46.680uterine wall it takes so so if a woman is meant to nurture a woman's womb is meant to be a context1.00
00:48:53.880of conducive to creating life sustaining life giving life um and so to take that womb and make
00:49:01.480it a death chamber um so i i would look at that so i'm i'm asking you is is that fair use to say
00:49:08.440this is why there may be other ethical forms of of of planning um in terms of children um but this
00:49:16.360is not one of them and this is why correct the womb is a living room for the unborn right it's
00:49:22.420a living room okay for the unborn gotcha but um and uh and it's it's designed by god to be a place
00:49:31.740of hospitality. It's designed by God to be a bed. We just had these awful murders here in Moscow
00:49:39.400where these college students were murdered in their beds, which is a terrible place to be
00:49:45.300murdered. It's never good to be murdered anywhere, but there's a particular grievousness
00:49:52.120about being murdered in a place where you ought to be. If there's any place on earth where you
00:49:58.960ought to be safe it's in your own bed right right uh and what these abortion pills do is they turn0.66
00:50:06.360that uh living room into a death chamber they turn the the the bed that ought to be hospitable and
00:50:14.040welcoming into a place that's inhospitable and unwelcoming and and yes and i would cite that
00:50:20.340verse in a decision like that right and there's multiple verses that we could cite and but but
00:50:24.880that would be one verse that we could use in a general equity fashion.