The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - Are Christian Nationalists About To Have Egg On Our Face？｜ with Doug Wilson

00:00:00.000 All right, welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied.

00:00:03.260 I am your host, Pastor Joel Webin with Right Response Ministries.

00:00:06.460 Now, in this particular episode, I'm having a conversation with Voldemort,

00:00:10.900 he who must not be named Doug Wilson himself.

00:00:14.160 And the conversation is about Christian nationalism, particularly,

00:00:17.680 and I'm not asking this question in a facetious manner, I mean it.

00:00:21.160 Are we about to have egg on our face for owning this label of Christian nationalism?

00:00:26.480 Christian nationalism was always meant to be a pejorative. It was a bunch of progressive leftists

00:00:31.740 calling any Bible-believing Christian a Christian nationalist, right? They were trying to link us 0.82

00:00:36.700 with the Third Reich, with Hitler, with some kind of horrible, terrible thing. But certain

00:00:42.000 individuals in the Christian world, like Doug Wilson and like myself, have said, you know what?

00:00:47.120 We'll own it. We're Christian nationalists. So what? What are you going to do about it? And so

00:00:50.860 we're working with this term. We're not picking it out of a hat. We're not saying we like it,

00:00:54.920 but we're working with the term. But the question is now, is that going to backfire? Now, this is a

00:01:00.200 pre-recorded episode. We've launched it before. This is a rerun, but it's one of my all-time

00:01:05.340 favorites. You're going to love it. If you haven't watched it before, this episode, it is evergreen.

00:01:10.580 In fact, it's become more timely today than it was when we first recorded it. So let's go ahead

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00:04:31.640 Applying God's word to every aspect of life.

00:04:35.280 This is Theology Applied.

00:04:40.040 All right, welcome to another episode of Theology Applied.

00:04:43.940 I am your host, Pastor Joel Webbin with Right Response Ministries.

00:04:46.680 In this episode, I am very privileged to welcome back for the 17th time,

00:04:51.160 not quite that many, but certainly a regular guest, Pastor Doug Wilson.

00:04:55.360 Wilson, thank you for joining us.

00:04:56.780 Hey.

00:04:57.600 Good to see you.

00:04:58.320 Glad to be here.

00:04:59.420 So we are, as we're recording, it's December 1st.

00:05:01.980 So you've just rounded out the month of November, which is not just NQN, but NQNQ,

00:05:09.200 because it's the fifth time, right?

00:05:11.880 And so I keep wondering, you know,

00:05:14.340 what is he going to burn down next?

00:05:15.820 You know, I mean, at this point,

00:05:17.320 we wonder the same thing, right?

00:05:19.280 Hopefully, hopefully not a church.

00:05:20.780 You know, I feel like that might, you know,

00:05:22.120 kind of cast the wrong message unless it was,

00:05:24.920 yeah, unless it was a rainbow flag, you know,

00:05:27.300 flying church and, you know,

00:05:28.320 maybe you could get away with it.

00:05:29.360 But all that being said,

00:05:30.920 I don't know if you're prepared to share this information.

00:05:33.520 I know you guys want to drop it first

00:05:34.760 and this episode wouldn't drop for a couple of weeks,

00:05:36.880 but can you give me a general idea?

00:05:38.840 because one of the things I love that you do is after November, you give us an update of God's

00:05:44.000 providence and his grace and how much reach, you know, Canon and Blog and Mayblog and those kind

00:05:49.800 of, are there any sneak peeks that you can give us? Yeah, we haven't, we're, we've got to assemble

00:05:56.820 the data, but I just checked this morning. We give away books, for example, Canon gives away

00:06:04.060 a boatload of books and I give away books, eBooks from my website. And I just, uh, checked this

00:06:12.380 morning and, um, I gave away between six and 7,000 books. Wow. How does that compare with last

00:06:20.700 year? Um, I haven't looked at last year, but I know that Canon press, uh, their giveaways early

00:06:28.020 in the month were at least double, uh, last year. So it really exploded. So we've given away over

00:06:36.300 November with May blog and Canon press, we've given away tens of thousands of books.

00:06:42.200 Wow. Praise God, man. I, I feel like, so I've got the, you know, the Canon app,

00:06:47.260 most of the guys and gals in our church have it also. And, you know, Christians always do things 1.00

00:06:52.640 And it's like, I, you know, um, I think Jeremy boring from daily wire said it, um, you know, 0.99

00:06:57.580 but like usually conservatives and Christians, they, uh, the four B's, they get beat, they 0.51

00:07:02.180 bemoan, that's kind of the chair, but he uses a different B, but they get beat, they bemoan.

00:07:06.480 Um, and then they, uh, boycott, you know, but people want, you know, entertainment,

00:07:10.960 they want coffee that, you know, so boycott usually lasts, you know, a fortnight.

00:07:14.340 And then they, uh, beg for donations. 1.00

00:07:17.060 And I feel like Christians are notorious for that. 1.00

00:07:20.420 And I was going to get the Canon app just, if nothing else, just to support, you know, 1.00

00:07:24.100 the ministry.

00:07:24.580 And I can honestly say that I feel like I'm getting more than an $8 a month value.

00:07:30.820 Like you guys put together something that's really remarkable.

00:07:34.880 So well done.

00:07:36.040 That fourth B, or maybe the second one, ought to be built.

00:07:40.840 Right.

00:07:41.180 Well, that's what I was going to say is scratch all four of those Bs. 1.00

00:07:43.860 Well, most of them.

00:07:45.440 And then, yeah, the fifth B should, yeah, built.

00:07:48.320 And that's what you're doing.

00:07:49.540 Yep. Praise God. Okay, so this is what I wanted to ask you. I gave you a little bit of a heads

00:07:54.380 up before we hit record, but Christian nationalism. I love the way that you've defined it and just

00:08:00.920 saying that there are technically six categories if we look at the tribalism, nationalism,

00:08:07.000 globalism on the one hand, and then over here, Christian or not Christian. And you've kind of

00:08:12.760 pieced in as a primary example, secularism, secular humanism. So if those are,

00:08:19.120 you know, then we have six categories, Christian, you know, tribalism or secular tribalism and on

00:08:24.300 and on, nationalism and globalism. And when you put it like that, it's just like, okay, what

00:08:28.800 Christian is not a Christian nationalist, right? You know, so it's like, so in that sense, I'm like,

00:08:33.080 yeah, I'm a Christian nationalist. I don't agree with everything with Wolf and I know that you

00:08:36.840 don't either, right? He's more Thomistic. Whereas I always, you know, natural revelation, natural

00:08:41.860 law, yes and amen. But I also, you know, maybe it's the Van Til in me, but I always want to

00:08:47.460 remind people, but God wrote a book and we can use the book, you know? And so, so I, you know,

00:08:52.360 so there's some distinctions there, but, but I, I really think that this Christian nationalism

00:08:56.300 thing, if it's gonna have any, you know, it would call it mere Christendom or call it whatever you

00:09:00.920 want, but just the civil magistrate submits to Christ, no separation between Christ and state,

00:09:06.860 church and state is different than, and so yes and amen, the nations are Christ's inheritance,

00:09:11.320 they must be Christian and that's gotta be a big tent. And so if some Thomists want to get on, 0.86

00:09:15.700 hop on with that. Praise God. And we can have a debate later on. So I'm grateful for Stephen

00:09:21.440 Wolfe and talk to him offline some and grateful for what he's doing. But I feel like, and I know

00:09:29.480 you're aware of this, it seems like there are some very, very large potential pitfalls. Guys want to,

00:09:36.740 they want to make Christian nationalism. The guys who don't like it, they want to make it white 0.94

00:09:40.320 Christian nationalism. They want to tie it in with the kinest. And you did a good job saying,

00:09:44.800 you guys think that you're leading the charge, but you're the soft underbelly. And so what is

00:09:51.940 your prediction in terms of what is, is Christian nationalism just going to blow up in our face?

00:09:57.440 Are we all going to have egg on our face and regret using that title? What's going to happen

00:10:02.020 in the next two, three, four, five years? Yeah. So supposing that it does blow up and supposing

00:10:09.280 that we do have egg on our face, those six options remain the six options, right? It doesn't

00:10:16.160 matter. It doesn't matter if we get embarrassed or not. Those are the options. So what I'd like

00:10:22.100 to do in response to this is sort of maybe shift the metaphor that we use on getting from here to

00:10:29.080 there, because I think a lot of people freak out because they have the wrong metaphor running in

00:10:34.040 their head. And then talk about what I think the challenge of kinism and things like that

00:10:41.360 present to us. So when conservatives, Burkean conservatives like myself, are suspicious of

00:10:51.600 ideology, an ideologue is someone who's got the whole thing mapped out and give them the plans,

00:11:00.340 give him a flag and a direction to march and a gun to shoot, and he's going to go try to implement

00:11:07.280 that ideology, okay? The problem, the essential difference between a reformer and a revolutionary

00:11:16.040 is patience. A reformer is patient, revolutionaries always impatient, and revolutionaries are always

00:11:23.280 ideologues. But in order to abstain from ideology, it's not necessary to have no idea where you're

00:11:30.980 going, or no idea of what the ideal society ought to be. It's the presence of patience,

00:11:37.080 not the absence of a plan. So here's the metaphor that I think a lot of people stumble over.

00:11:46.060 we were let's say we're talking with different people about our ideal society the temptation

00:11:53.740 is to think that we're going into a restaurant and we're sitting down and ordering off the menu

00:12:00.600 and if i persuade my come on let's get the steak or come on let's get the um let's get the pasta

00:12:09.100 and we think that when we order it then it's going to come out of the kitchen hot and ready to go

00:12:15.080 and be placed on the table in front of us. 0.93

00:12:17.300 And everybody's talking as though a Christian nation 0.98

00:12:21.320 is going to arrive straight out of the kitchen, okay?

00:12:27.300 But we have the challenging problem

00:12:29.460 of getting from here to there, right?

00:12:32.860 And so I want to shift the metaphor.

00:12:34.720 I want us to say we're not sitting at a table

00:12:37.060 in a restaurant preparing to order off the menu.

00:12:39.640 Rather, we're cooks in the kitchen

00:12:41.940 standing around the pot,

00:12:43.940 and the pot is full of chicken curry and the lord has told us in the great commission

00:12:50.420 that when we're done he wants the pot to be full of beef stroganoff

00:12:54.680 okay now how some miracles have to there have to be some remarkable things happen here

00:13:02.480 in order for this to happen but when i'm looking at this and i let's say with the various differences

00:13:09.820 i've got with steven wolf when i look at what he's talking about i'm asking myself is this a

00:13:16.520 is this a step or two closer to beef stroganoff right than what we have now yes it is okay it

00:13:24.400 it manifestly is all right it's a step in the right direction now we can adjust sauces and we

00:13:30.800 can adjust ingredients down the road but this is a this is a step in the right direction and

00:13:38.280 the other cooks standing around the pot some of them want to put arsenic in the in it some of them

00:13:43.820 want to uh fill it up with water you know they've got all these competing things and i'm saying no

00:13:49.480 i'm i'm with steven so far as it goes this let's go this direction what some of them want to do is

00:13:54.580 they want to say doug um if you weren't so racist you would appreciate the curry it's an ethnic dish

00:14:01.700 you want the beef stroganoff because it's a white bland that's what they're gonna say so i'm gonna

00:14:08.140 have to fix my metaphor yeah you're gonna have to fix the metaphor it's not gonna work i'm gonna

00:14:11.040 have to go go from beef stroganoff to well actually i need to have beef stew like or irish

00:14:18.000 stew or something like that yeah something from the uk and we go to go toward curry exactly and

00:14:23.200 then everyone everyone will see that i'm not a racist there you go they will and they will

00:14:27.360 apologize right that's right no so having said that that means that when you if i'm if i make

00:14:34.880 a decision to go in the direction of what i think will result in a better society 150 years from now

00:14:42.560 there really is room for discussion and debate there's also room for the unreasonable types

00:14:50.480 to get in there and discuss and debate okay and so we have to walk in wisdom and keep certain

00:14:58.900 people away from the spices right okay and uh and this is where it gets down to the practical

00:15:06.760 um uh issues i i believe that we have to keep um three categories kinest adjacent

00:15:16.500 soft kinest and hard kinest okay okay um and a hard kinest would be what in the popular

00:15:24.640 parlance is a racist so a hard kinist would be a racist i don't like using the term racist i used

00:15:31.820 to um until i i spent a lot of time working through this and i don't see race as a biblical

00:15:38.420 category right i see kin tribes languages ethnicities that absolutely is a biblical category

00:15:47.300 But race, as in Caucasian, Asian, I don't see that as a biblical category.

00:15:55.840 That's something that we talk to medical doctors or biologists about.

00:16:05.580 That's not a biblical category.

00:16:09.040 So I want to talk in terms of ethnicity.

00:16:12.440 Right. And when it comes to ethnicity, the New Testament is filled with references to, in Christ, there's neither Jew nor Greek, slave, free, and so on.

00:16:26.960 Now, Stephen is absolutely right that the fall did not alter basic human relationships. Adam and Eve, after the fall, were still married.

00:16:42.440 again they didn't have to get married again in a in a post-lapsarian world they were married before

00:16:50.280 they're married after uh the children that they have if they had had unfallen children

00:16:57.340 the children would have been children right right um brought up and nursed by adam and

00:17:04.460 nursed by eve and brought up by adam um and after the fall that's what happened so natural relations

00:17:10.620 at that level like that are sort of a constant. But idolatry, because of the fall, idolatry comes

00:17:18.420 in. Okay, so how do you, how do you, for example, thread the needle that Stephen wants us to thread

00:17:27.640 and that I want to thread of respecting and honoring your natural relations out past your

00:17:35.820 grandparents okay uh your your clan your tribe especially you know unfallen world where nobody's

00:17:44.520 dying right you can go visit your great great great great grandma and uh so you've got that

00:17:53.860 situation um that's one thing and i'm with steven completely in his definition of that

00:18:01.700 But in a fallen world, let's say you are trying to get from the curry to the stroganoff in a Confucian country, where respect for your parents is all tied up with ancestor worship.

00:18:18.400 Right. 0.94

00:18:19.060 Okay.

00:18:20.440 And if you suddenly decide, I'm not going to worship my ancestors anymore.

00:18:27.480 and this was my mom was a missionary in japan and this was a big issue in japan if a young person

00:18:36.300 converts to christianity and stops worshiping ancestors there is absolutely no way for that

00:18:42.860 to register in any other way than disrespect for his parents okay so there's got to be a clash or

00:18:51.740 revolution or some sort of showdown at this. So, when we're getting from curry to stroganoff

00:18:59.840 in the kitchen, at some point, there's going to be a fight, right? At some point, there's going

00:19:05.300 to be persecution. At some point, it's going to be disruptive. And that's why Jesus says,

00:19:11.660 you can't be my disciple if you love father, mother, wife, sister, brother, children more

00:19:19.120 than me you can't be my disciple that and so that's a um non-negotiable of christian discipleship 0.63

00:19:25.680 right right so i i believe that the danger is because of the woke um jihad where uh people

00:19:37.320 uh people of my background ethnic makeup white anglo-saxon protestant or middle class um or

00:19:48.540 hillbilly elegy material people people like that have been vilified for a few decades now yes and

00:19:58.600 because the church large the church at large the reformed evangelical church at large has gone

00:20:05.660 limp on this the people the people in that um category feel manifestly unprotected and they

00:20:15.700 start listening to alternative voices who can give them an explanation for this treatment that

00:20:22.640 they're getting and instruction on how to respond and there are different shades of red pill

00:20:29.760 right right uh some deep some red pills are really really red and some red pills are just

00:20:36.620 slightly pink but there are there are a lot of people who are now in a position where they are

00:20:43.740 listening to kinists and as much as i repudiate the kinist take my foundational accusation for

00:20:53.380 the existence of kinism lies with the soft left the soft woke evangelical left they're the ones

00:21:00.520 who created this yes 100 yep i i completely agree um and and we see that i mean we've seen that in

00:21:08.740 real time with thomas accord right which was just a hit on stephen wolf um you know and it's and

00:21:13.480 it's sad what happened to him. And yet at the same time, it's also, that's why we have to have

00:21:19.420 self-control. And just as a practical tip, one of the guys in my church, as we were talking about

00:21:25.140 the situation, he said, it's a good time to remember that burner accounts are meant to

00:21:28.800 eventually be burned. You want to get rid of those from time to time. I'm not against the

00:21:34.200 pseudonyms. I mean, we have a rich history within the American tradition and beyond writing under a

00:21:39.920 pseudonym, but it has bit quite a few Christians in the butt. I think of even Driscoll. I think he 1.00

00:21:47.860 went under the pseudonym William Wallace II and got in quite a bit of trouble. But all that being

00:21:52.980 said, it's this hit on Stephen Wolf, which by proxy, that's also a hit on canon. And it usually

00:22:01.460 comes to a head with Voldemort, he who should not be named, yours truly. So that's kind of the

00:22:09.820 play. But isn't it remarkable? And you mentioned this and some other guys that I've been talking

00:22:14.920 to, you know, who had a relationship with Thomas, you know, and talking to offline, they, you know,

00:22:20.400 they're not condoning racism, but they are, you know, sympathetic and compassionate in the way

00:22:26.700 that, the right way that a Christian should be and saying, isn't it remarkable how there's so

00:22:30.420 much compassion for uh sodomy uh but there's zero compassion for for um you know kinism and racism 0.93

00:22:39.980 and you know and and i i think that uh right now that you're right i think the overton window is

00:22:45.440 is moving i keep thinking about you particularly because um the overton window is moving in such

00:22:50.360 a way some some things you know all of it in god's providence and some things um good and then

00:22:55.040 some things bad it's it's you know a reaction an overreaction and and coming out of spite and

00:22:59.420 vengeance. But if this continues to happen, I think that you have a real potential of being

00:23:06.360 viewed as a moderate, you know, that reasonable, you could be viewed as a reasonable evangelical

00:23:10.740 within the next, you know, five to 10 years. So I know that's the kind of thing that makes me

00:23:16.400 wake up screaming. I've actually seen that. I've seen that starting to develop. And there's a

00:23:26.240 certain area there's a certain respect in which i want that to be the case so um let's say things

00:23:34.300 get somebody once said about an ethnic war uh there's one one thing about an ethnic war you

00:23:40.500 don't have to pick sides uh the other side does that for you okay you you don't have basically

00:23:47.880 the uh when things come down to the point you can't take your own personal opinions about whether

00:23:55.360 any of this should have happened. And then, because of those opinions, walk through a part

00:24:01.080 of a city that is dominated by a group that is at war with people who look like you. You don't

00:24:08.800 have that luxury, okay? Now, you should have your own thought through opinions, but you should also

00:24:15.120 be aware of what's going on in the world outside you. Now, I've wanted to position myself and

00:24:23.160 conduct myself in such a way that when we if we ever get to the point where someone says hey can

00:24:31.540 we have peace can we have some peace talks okay who should we talk who should we talk to on the

00:24:38.020 other side i want to be the kind of person that they would say wilson is prepared to be reasonable

00:24:46.220 now being reasonable does should not mean being compromised but there's a difference between

00:24:53.460 combatants who are fire eaters who they all they want to do is fight and combatants who understand

00:25:00.540 the principle and you know i would say um be the difference between nathan bedford forest

00:25:09.260 and robert e lee okay so you you've got um i i want to be the sort of person that when peace

00:25:19.040 is possible without compromise i'm willing to talk about it because i haven't lost my temper

00:25:25.140 right right um there's some people especially in the aftermath of the accord thing some people

00:25:32.640 online who just lost their temper. And on both sides, on both sides. Yeah. And I don't think

00:25:40.620 it I don't think we're helping anything when we lose our tempers. I completely agree. So I all

00:25:48.540 that being said, I've got two ideas I want to run by you and just and just get your response. So the

00:25:53.500 first one in line of what we're talking about, you know, the dangers of being a hard kinest and

00:25:57.920 those kinds of like, yes, we of course, natural affections are a thing. I love my wife more than

00:26:02.340 other people's wives. And if I didn't, I'd be in sin. You know, I love my children more than my

00:26:06.660 neighbor's children and so on and so forth. And the question is how many ripples out can, you know,

00:26:11.780 circles out can we go, you know? But, you know, there's something to be said for Romans 9 with

00:26:16.360 the Apostle Paul. You know, I'd be willing to go to hell, which I don't know if I could say for

00:26:20.860 anybody personally. I'm a little bit self-preserving in that regard, but, you know, he's willing to go

00:26:26.800 to hell for his kinsmen according to the flesh, his fellow Israelites. And so there's something 1.00

00:26:31.260 to be said there but when i think of christian nationalism working i think one of the reasons

00:26:34.900 why the kinnis conversation keeps coming up is people it's almost in some ways easier to define

00:26:40.480 this is what i've bumped up against as i've been talking to people you know in this orbit it's

00:26:45.260 almost easier to define christian uh than than nation um and and so some guys are wanting that

00:26:51.920 ethnoi to to wrap it around ethnicity whereas whereas i feel um and and and i was looking at

00:26:58.220 that and saying, well, maybe they have a point, you know, and really trying to consider that

00:27:01.120 and give it a fair shake. But what I've landed on is I think part of the problem with America

00:27:06.320 is just, you know, well, decadence, you know, you track empires, the fate of empires and decadence,

00:27:11.620 and it leads to altruism at a hyper level where you basically have a death wish, you become

00:27:16.860 suicidal, everyone else can succeed except for us, self-loathing, it's riddled in guilt rather than

00:27:22.900 Christian gratitude for the blessings of God, you feel guilty for the blessings of God. 0.91

00:27:26.660 But all that wrapped in into what I think of as not the melting pot of multiple ethnicities in 0.83

00:27:31.880 our nation, but just the extreme amount of immigration. I feel like you can have 20% of

00:27:37.600 the nation that's white and black and 20% that's white, 20% that's black, brown, and so on. 0.82

00:27:44.500 And if we just limited no illegal immigration, and then even with legal immigration, it's vastly

00:27:51.500 limited, and you just let 30 years go by, or let's say 50, to where my grandkids, they're

00:27:59.520 like, yeah, grandma and grandpa, or grandpa, he fought the same wars, they worked in the

00:28:04.940 same jobs, they went to the same churches, and we're American.

00:28:08.840 We have this shared history, and that would be enough. 0.94

00:28:12.380 I don't feel like it needs to all be white, or it needs to all be, I think it just, it's 0.55

00:28:16.700 that shared history, it needs time.

00:28:18.900 It can be different pigment, but it does need to be a similar culture.

00:28:24.120 There's a commonality of not skin pigment, not color, but culture.

00:28:30.220 And for that to happen requires a stableness, and we're just so unstable right now with influx of—do you feel like that's maybe— 0.99

00:28:43.100 That is absolutely the case.

00:28:45.720 So, one of the things that this is another, we're not, part of our problem is that we think in simplistic categories.

00:28:55.540 So, for example, in the New Testament, the Apostle Paul was of the tribe of Benjamin, he was a Jew, he was a citizen of Tarsus, no mean city, and he was a Roman citizen.

00:29:08.240 Right.

00:29:08.340 Now, those are very different layers of allegiance.

00:29:12.440 Paul was willing to use his Roman citizenship.

00:29:18.340 He knew his rights, in other words. 0.82

00:29:20.900 He was up on basic Roman civics, and he was—there seems to be a little measure of cavelling 0.90

00:29:29.640 or about his city, Tarsus, which was in Cilicia, and he was a Jew of Jews, circumcised on the 0.53

00:29:39.700 So, when we look at, when people talk about nationalism or kinism, everybody thinks immediately that it's a mono-ethnic nation like Japan is.

00:29:57.340 Okay?

00:29:58.060 So, Japan is overwhelmingly one ethnicity. 0.90

00:30:02.700 And people think, well, if you're talking about that, then that's what you've got in mind for America. You want to exclude everybody who doesn't fit your particular DNA imprint. 0.97

00:30:19.460 Well, I talked to Stephen Wolfe about this, and he agreed with me that America, Americans, are an ethnic.

00:30:28.420 We have a shared cultural history, language, cuisine, sports teams, history, wars our dads and granddads fought in.

00:30:40.460 You know, that's part of what brings us all together.

00:30:44.020 That sort of thing can form and can have a profound tie or a profound claim on people's allegiance. 1.00

00:30:57.180 But what disrupts it is if you bring in immigrants like a flood at a rate far more rapidly than can be assimilated. 1.00

00:31:10.120 Right. So the issue is not whether a family, a white family, for example, can adopt a black child. They most certainly can. Or adopt a Mexican child. They can, and God bless them when they bring them up in the nurture and admonish the Lord. You know, this is great. 0.97

00:31:30.340 but if they adopted 150 mexican children right right right then they are not going to do a good 1.00

00:31:39.740 job with anybody they're not going to do a good job with their own kids they're not going to do 0.95

00:31:45.400 a job a good job with the kids that they've brought in they're just going to be swamped

00:31:49.820 they're going to do a terrible job and the whole thing's going to blow apart yes and and so the

00:31:55.100 issue is uh so when i say that well we need to have control of our borders it's not because i

00:32:03.420 want to keep people out it's because i want to make sure that we have a judicious handling of

00:32:12.120 this so that we can bless the maximum amount of people so if we should want we should be a

00:32:19.740 welcoming nation and we should i think be america is a mutt nation right right we're not mono-ethnic

00:32:29.100 like the japanese or the swedes we are from all over yep and that's part of our ethnicity that's

00:32:37.120 part of our melting pot identity right but the pot has got to stay hot enough to melt things

00:32:44.520 right if uh right now we're just making us uh a salad with croutons from all over

00:32:53.460 and uh it's not it's going to be only croutons and it's not going to be a very good salad right

00:32:59.620 we got to get back to the soup and now we need the stroganoff right yeah we need to focus on

00:33:04.860 food whatever we do whatever it is and it needs to be a hot dish it needs to be a hot dish with a

00:33:10.080 with a ladle that we're starting to get. No, that's very helpful. I completely agree.

00:33:14.620 And I think we need people, you know, so give us your tire, give us your, you know,

00:33:18.540 I think there's something true in that, but I think there's also, America needs to be for

00:33:24.020 America. And if America hates America, it's what you've said, you know, a guy who says,

00:33:28.660 you know, on Mother's Day goes and buys a car that, you know, my mom's the best mom in the

00:33:31.860 world. That guy has a better understanding when other people appreciate their mom than the guy

00:33:35.880 who says, my mom's the worst mom in the world. That guy's not going to respect anybody's mom.

00:33:39.940 And so America needs to be for America, and that's the best chance that America has in being a benevolent nation, not a global empire necessarily, policing the world, or as you've said, the Coast Guard, global Coast Guard for the world.

00:33:53.080 Those days may be over, and that may be in God's providence a good thing, but America should still be benevolent towards other nations, whether it rules them with an iron fist.

00:34:02.260 And that's only going to happen by stemming from America loving America.

00:34:05.420 And so we want people who come in to not just want to live here, but want to love here.

00:34:11.060 They don't just want to live in America, but they actually want to love America.

00:34:14.500 I feel like, for instance, so we have multiple families in our church all the way down in

00:34:18.600 Georgetown, Texas, from Canada that have recently, you know, come over here because Canada has

00:34:24.540 turned into, it's just, you know, Trudeau has lost its ever loving mind and we're happy

00:34:27.980 to have them.

00:34:29.000 And these are people who still love Canada.

00:34:30.760 um but but they also are working on um you know developing a love and affection for america not

00:34:38.240 just benefiting from but wanting to be a blessing to this place and wanting to form an identity

00:34:43.540 with this place and and um and so i think people who who love america having you know a mitigated

00:34:49.560 amount of people who are coming in that actually want to be americans not just reap the benefits

00:34:54.660 but they want to be americans um they want our history to become their history and their

00:34:59.700 grandchildren's history. And, and I think you do that. And I mean, easier said than done,

00:35:04.880 but problem solved. I think that that's a big, big part of it. So here's the second thing I

00:35:09.540 want to run by you. I think a lot of people with the Christian nationalism thing. So the six

00:35:13.800 categories that you've coined is super helpful because I think that the reason why it's helpful

00:35:19.180 is it's, it's, it's, it's a compelling argument. It forces people to, you know, to actually,

00:35:24.920 you know, to, you know, pretty much everybody has to say, okay, I'm in this category. So

00:35:30.040 with that, you know, but brass tacks practically, what does it look like to be

00:35:34.060 a Christian nationalist? And I've been thinking about that. And I think whether you get to it

00:35:37.500 through natural law and the Thomism or whether Thomism or whether you get there from a Vantilian,

00:35:42.920 Greg Bonson, as you've said, a general equity theonomy in both instances, it seems like

00:35:49.900 what we're advocating for is not just the second table of the law, but all Ten Commandments,

00:35:55.740 the civil magistrate, Christ is head of all things, Ephesians 1.22. He's uniquely head of

00:36:02.860 the church in the sense that the church is the only thing that Christ has died for, but he is

00:36:06.640 head exclusively. So uniquely head of the church, not exclusively head of the church, head of all

00:36:11.040 things, including the state, separation between church and state, but not Christ and state.

00:36:16.580 Caesar is God's deacon. He needs to legislate and uphold all 10 commandments, not just the second

00:36:23.800 table, but first also. But then you bring in, that's the theonomy, and you bring in the

00:36:29.800 post-millennialism, hurry up and wait. And you said something that I think bears repeating,

00:36:35.340 that the state should perhaps obey the first table of law for 200 years before it enforces it.

00:36:41.980 I thought that was so insightful. And that's what I mean when I say Christian nationalism. We're not talking about rounding people up who are idolaters in the next 15 minutes. And even 200 years from now, I think also another thing that you've said is a clear distinction between crimes and sins.

00:36:59.240 so even then uh there's there's not this going breaking into someone's home because of their 0.77

00:37:04.640 their private islam uh worship but but there is something to be said for public expressions high

00:37:10.640 places in a nation and again after a couple centuries um and and before even then at that

00:37:16.320 level before the mosque is under question wouldn't it be the uh the public teaching of atheism to our

00:37:21.760 children in state schools through evolution that that high place would come down first and am i on

00:37:26.980 the right track anything you would add to that this is absolutely uh right um and the issue is

00:37:34.780 not whether or not we want a society to be conforming to the 10 commandments live and living

00:37:42.360 under the blessing of the living under deuteronomic blessings right because we're walking under the

00:37:49.640 favor of god and obeying his law but we have to always remember and this is the point you touched

00:37:55.400 on, we have to always remember that when we are talking about suppression of blasphemy,

00:38:00.480 I would say the first order of business is to suppress the magistrate's ability to blaspheme.

00:38:08.940 Because in history, the state, the king, the ruling authorities have overwhelmingly

00:38:17.180 used blasphemy codes to impose their blasphemy. And so we have to fix that problem. Now,

00:38:27.060 at some point, let's say we postulate some ideal Christian republic 500 years down the road,

00:38:35.960 and some atheist loses his mind and goes down to the town square and starts blaspheming the name

00:38:46.140 of God and the mother of Jesus. And, you know, just should he be scooped up and taken in? Well,

00:38:52.940 yeah, I think that there are places for the prosecution of blasphemy on that level. But

00:39:00.200 we have to remember that Jesus was executed on a blasphemy charge, right? And that was the greatest 1.00

00:39:09.100 blasphemy that our race has ever committed and we did it in the name of um enforcing 0.81

00:39:19.420 the the laws yeah we we committed the greatest blasphemy ever by silencing blasphemy right

00:39:27.200 by quote-unquote silencing blasphemy and i want to say okay let's fix that problem first

00:39:33.820 let's let's and that means limited government okay so uh if you if you gave a martian a copy

00:39:43.060 of the u.s constitution one of the and he read it and read it reread it one of the things he

00:39:48.420 would come away with and we talked to him afterwards and we said what's the central

00:39:52.100 takeaway message that you you have from reading our founding document he would say the central

00:39:59.520 takeaway message is never trust an american right never try and particularly never trust

00:40:08.680 an american politician with power right all right that's why that's why the separation of powers

00:40:14.680 that's why the checks and balances uh we have a our our system was a genius system for spreading

00:40:21.500 the power as thinly as possible okay now it's true that if you remove from the state

00:40:28.760 the power to blaspheme they might not be able to handle the occasional rogue blasphemer out here

00:40:37.480 right but we've got the christopher dawson said the christian church lives in the light of eternity

00:40:43.740 and can afford to be patient and we're post-millennial we want to be patient right

00:40:49.300 and so as we are making our way toward this better society we want a society in which

00:40:55.320 blasphemy is not tolerated by anybody right particularly by the state right amen and and

00:41:04.520 to follow up with that so it's you know it's all all ten commandments uh but hurry up and wait

00:41:08.800 let's uh let's have the state obey the first table of the law before it enforces the table

00:41:12.940 uh second first table of the law uh distinction between sins and crimes um it's more so public

00:41:18.960 expressions and again with with this waiting patience um public expressions of blasphemy

00:41:24.360 and idolatry and then the only other thing i wanted to add to that that i've also heard you

00:41:28.140 and others durbin um say that i think also is helpful for people when they're thinking what

00:41:32.500 what would christian nationalism what is this dystopian gonna look like um uh dystopia uh

00:41:39.200 there's also in terms of case law um so homosexuality for instance uh and the death

00:41:44.860 penalty um so so five thousand dollar fine and uh and um five years in prison as a maximum for

00:41:53.440 throwing a candy bar wrapper out my window, but I don't know anyone who's been in jail for five

00:41:59.000 years for littering. Right. Um, and so, um, I think, could you, could you talk about that a

00:42:04.480 little bit in terms of looking at, at the civil codes given to Israel and knowing that we hold

00:42:09.740 to the general equity and that's a thoroughly reformed confessional that's Westminster. It's

00:42:14.060 1689 on my end of things. Um, so it's, it's, it's not a one-step process that you take the civil

00:42:19.220 codes in Israel and you just carry them over and drop them in America in 2022. But it's a two-step 0.50

00:42:23.860 process. It's not that hard. You take the civil code and you take it not to America, but you take

00:42:28.840 it first back to the 10 commandments as the blueprint, the moral law of God that ultimately

00:42:33.160 is stemming to these codes. And then you apply that given culture and technology and these kinds

00:42:37.440 in America. And then even then looking at the penalties now, not the codes, but the penalties

00:42:42.980 for breaking the codes, viewing these within a maximum penalty mindset.

00:42:49.180 Could you talk about that for a moment?

00:42:50.720 Yeah.

00:42:51.600 So when we talk about biblical law, we have to say it's not just when people think theonomy,

00:42:59.320 they think that we're going to get a big crane, lift the Mosaic code, and bring it over and

00:43:05.060 drop it down on 21st century America.

00:43:07.900 No, that's not how it works. Because we're not just taking the content of the laws. We are imitating and taking over the entire legal system. Okay, so the law of Moses was a case law system. Right? It was a common, our name for it is common law.

00:43:30.180 All right, so a case law system means that you have a particular law that embodies a principle.

00:43:38.920 You shall not muzzle the ox when it treads out the corn.

00:43:42.800 And every pastor likes the general equity of that.

00:43:46.440 Right, right.

00:43:47.560 And that's what Paul is applying in the New Testament is the general equity of that.

00:43:52.160 Exactly.

00:43:52.560 A laborer is worthy of his hire.

00:43:54.660 now what happens is if i'm um if i'm my joke is if i were president and what a glorious three days

00:44:03.620 that would be right um but if i had the authority to make law i would not um make it illegal in the

00:44:12.140 state of idaho to boil a kid in its mother's milk and a kid being a baby goat not an not a kid yeah

00:44:19.780 A kid being a baby goat.

00:44:21.520 I wouldn't do that.

00:44:24.300 The reason I wouldn't make that against the law is because nobody's doing that.

00:44:28.380 It's not an issue.

00:44:29.840 It was an issue back in the day.

00:44:31.760 But what's the principle?

00:44:33.100 What's the general equity of that law?

00:44:35.420 Well, you shall not take that which was given by God as nourishment and life and turn it into an instrument of death.

00:44:43.920 That's right. 0.95

00:44:44.080 So it was lawful to take the baby goat and kill it and eat it. 0.98

00:44:49.600 That was lawful.

00:44:50.840 But you could not liturgically or ritually take his lifeblood, his nourishment, his milk, and make that the instrument of death.

00:45:00.420 You can't do that. 0.98

00:45:01.620 So let's say I'm a Christian judge in a theonomic republic, and I hand down a decision that prohibits women from serving in combat roles. 0.99

00:45:14.080 okay i could hand down a decision and because it's a theonomic republic i could say no women

00:45:21.240 are not to serve in combat roles and then cite the reference from exodus i think it's in 0.64

00:45:26.660 deuteronomy also you should not boil a kid in this mother's milk why because women are life

00:45:31.460 givers right do not turn life givers into death dealers okay so and that's that's also why a lot 1.00

00:45:40.180 of the warrior princess uh spy deadly female is kinky but um it's kinky that way they're trying

00:45:49.000 to turn nurturers women life givers into death dealers and uh and so that's the general equity

00:45:57.560 of it now when you do this what king alfred did uh king alfred took basically the laws of

00:46:04.860 Deuteronomy and made them the laws of England. And that worked because England was an agrarian

00:46:13.380 society, much like Israel was. But that was the beginning of our common law system. And so common 0.71

00:46:21.880 law doesn't require you to have something on the books that we, again, I wouldn't make a law

00:46:30.760 saying you have to have a parapet around the roof of your house right because in our society

00:46:35.660 nobody goes up there right and every two-story structure aka a balcony we do it we already do

00:46:43.100 it correct and if you didn't do it and one of your dinner guests fell off a second story deck

00:46:48.540 then you should be liable at law for the damages and i would have no problem as a judge citing the

00:46:55.460 Scripture, the Scripture is authoritative, because that's because a common law system or a case law

00:47:03.780 system is a system that's based on precedent. So in Alfred's time, let's say a widow in Sussex

00:47:12.520 had a case where the neighbor's dog ate her chicken, and it went to court, and the case was

00:47:20.700 decided. And then 50 years later, someone's ox gored the neighbor's dog. The judge in that case

00:47:28.520 would look back at the precedent and he would see the principle, he would see the general equity of

00:47:34.140 the previous decision and apply it in this new situation. As opposed to the secularist who wants

00:47:40.620 to have a volume, bound volumes of regulations that anticipate every contingency. And if they

00:47:47.620 didn't anticipate it properly and you found the loophole you're you're off scot-free because

00:47:55.360 they're trying to be omniscient they're trying to be omnipotent they're trying to be god right

00:47:59.960 right with um going back to the you know you shall not boil a kid a baby goat in his mother's

00:48:06.400 milk that the instrument that god gave to be nourishment and life should not be used as an

00:48:10.380 instrument of death with that you know you gave the example of women in combat fantastic example

00:48:15.460 another one that i i've actually used pastorally is uh that same verse the the kid and um and and

00:48:21.500 the uh the mother's milk in terms of um the hormonal birth control pill um there's a difference

00:48:28.520 um you know in a condom there's a difference um in in planned abstinence um periodically there's

00:48:36.200 a difference in stopping an egg from being fertilized versus the birth um hormonal birth

00:48:41.560 control pill which has three primary functions but but the third being that actually thins the

00:48:46.680 uterine wall it takes so so if a woman is meant to nurture a woman's womb is meant to be a context 1.00

00:48:53.880 of conducive to creating life sustaining life giving life um and so to take that womb and make

00:49:01.480 it a death chamber um so i i would look at that so i'm i'm asking you is is that fair use to say

00:49:08.440 this is why there may be other ethical forms of of of planning um in terms of children um but this

00:49:16.360 is not one of them and this is why correct the womb is a living room for the unborn right it's

00:49:22.420 a living room okay for the unborn gotcha but um and uh and it's it's designed by god to be a place

00:49:31.740 of hospitality. It's designed by God to be a bed. We just had these awful murders here in Moscow

00:49:39.400 where these college students were murdered in their beds, which is a terrible place to be

00:49:45.300 murdered. It's never good to be murdered anywhere, but there's a particular grievousness

00:49:52.120 about being murdered in a place where you ought to be. If there's any place on earth where you

00:49:58.960 ought to be safe it's in your own bed right right uh and what these abortion pills do is they turn 0.66

00:50:06.360 that uh living room into a death chamber they turn the the the bed that ought to be hospitable and

00:50:14.040 welcoming into a place that's inhospitable and unwelcoming and and yes and i would cite that

00:50:20.340 verse in a decision like that right and there's multiple verses that we could cite and but but

00:50:24.880 that would be one verse that we could use in a general equity fashion.

00:50:28.680 Fantastic.

00:50:29.260 Any final thoughts for our listeners, Pastor Doug?

00:50:31.880 No, this is going to be a rodeo.

00:50:33.360 Over the next five years, I believe that we are going to see a lot of conflict, a lot

00:50:39.440 of excitement, a lot of misunderstanding.

00:50:42.700 And I would just tell your viewers, your listeners to not lose their tempers.

00:50:48.740 Keep cool.

00:50:50.320 Love God.

00:50:51.180 Worship him.

00:50:51.940 Don't take the bait.

00:50:53.380 Don't take the bait. 0.97

00:50:54.880 right yes yeah yeah and going back circling back around to the kinnis problem don't don't go for 0.97

00:51:04.000 quick fixes cheap solutions um the kind of thing that we need the the only way out for us is christ 0.54

00:51:11.300 it's christ or chaos it's not white people are chaos it's christ or chaos amen amen well said

00:51:18.440 um well thank you so much as always for coming on the show um i know that our listeners and myself

00:51:22.920 personally benefit immensely from your ministry, your writing, your preaching, all those kinds of

00:51:27.180 things. And we pray that for this rollercoaster over the next five years, we pray that even if

00:51:33.540 it's a rollercoaster for 15 years, that you would be on the rollercoaster with us. We'd like to have

00:51:37.640 you on the ride. So keep it up. Whoa, whoa, whoa. You're going to want to hear this. Our next two

00:51:43.620 conferences are coming up quick. We've got first our fall conference. This is November 11th and

00:51:49.760 12th. That's a full day Saturday and a holdover for the Lord's day, November 12th. Uh, who's

00:51:56.260 speaking at this conference? Well, we've got Jared Longshore and Chris Wiley and yours truly

00:52:02.260 pastor Joel Webb. And what's the title? The title is the household and the war for the cosmos. Now

00:52:08.180 I know you're thinking, wait a second, you can't use that title, Joel. That's the title for Chris

00:52:12.520 Wiley's book. Well, I can use it because he's going to be there speaking and he gave me his

00:52:17.380 permission. We're going to be talking about the household as the basic building block for pushing

00:52:22.800 back the kingdom of darkness in this world. We're going to be talking about biblical patriarchy.

00:52:28.200 We're going to be talking about marriage and parenting, how to keep your kids, how to shape

00:52:33.100 and form them like straight arrows, like sharp arrows that do damage to the kingdom of darkness,

00:52:39.760 training our children in the fear and ammunition of the Lord. A full day on Saturday, November 11th,

00:52:45.440 and then holding Jared Longshore over for the Lord's Day, November 12th,

00:52:49.640 to preach at my church, Covenant Bible Church, in Central Texas.

00:52:54.180 You can register at the early bird rate, which will not last long,

00:52:58.500 but you can register at the early bird rate today by going to rightresponseconference.com.

00:53:04.620 Again, that's rightresponseconference.com.

00:53:07.820 Now, our second conference is our spring conference.

00:53:10.600 This is Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, March 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.

00:53:16.200 The title for this conference, Blueprints for Chrysidom 2.0.

00:53:21.340 Blueprints for Chrysidom 2.0.

00:53:24.040 We don't want to revert back to Chrysidom 1.0, although it would certainly be a whole

00:53:29.280 lot better than the clown world that we're currently living in, but we recognize despite

00:53:34.200 the phenomenal features of a prior Chrysidom, there were certain bugs that we'd like to

00:53:39.960 see worked out. So we're not going back. We are pushing forward to Christendom 2.0. We believe

00:53:46.360 that the blueprints are seven doctrines for ruling the world righteously. What are these

00:53:52.600 seven doctrines? Well, it's reformed confessionalism. It's covenant theology. It's biblical

00:53:58.680 patriarchy. It's presuppositionalism and Kuyperianism and general equity theonomy and 0.74

00:54:06.020 hopeful eschatology post-millennialism.

00:54:09.260 Who's going to be teaching us on these doctrines?

00:54:12.200 Voldemort, he who must not be named, Pastor Douglas Wilson himself.

00:54:17.120 You also got Mr. Breithearth, Mr. Kingshall, Mr. Haunted Cosmos, Pastor Brian Sauve.

00:54:23.840 And we also have Dr. Joseph Boot, and of course, yours truly, Pastor Joel Webin.

00:54:29.900 We'll be doing seven primary lectures as well as two 90-minute panels with all the speakers

00:54:36.260 together, and we'll likely add a couple more speakers along the way.

00:54:40.880 Again, that's March 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.

00:54:47.020 It's Blueprints for Chrysidom 2.0.

00:54:50.580 We've got the early bird rate going right now, but it will run out quickly.

00:54:54.620 So go to rightresponseconference.com, rightresponseconference.com to register today.

The NXR Podcast - June 14, 2023

THEOLOGY APPLIED - Are Christian Nationalists About To Have Egg On Our Face？｜ with Doug Wilson

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript

The NXR Podcast - June 14, 2023

THEOLOGY APPLIED - Are Christian Nationalists About To Have Egg On Our Face？ ｜ with Doug Wilson

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript

THEOLOGY APPLIED - Are Christian Nationalists About To Have Egg On Our Face？｜ with Doug Wilson