The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - Are Women More Easily Deceived Than Men？｜ with Zach Garris

00:00:00.000 Alright, listen guys, I get it. Many of you are unable to financially support this ministry because you're spending your cash and your lives on raising young children in the fear and admonition of the Lord. Praise God for you and that endeavor.

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00:00:38.380 Thank you so much.

00:00:39.660 God bless. 0.95

00:00:40.040 For Adam was formed first, then Eve, and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived 0.95

00:00:48.360 and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing if they continue in faith

00:00:56.980 and love and holiness with self-control. In this episode of Theology Applied, I'm privileged to be

00:01:04.940 joined by Zachary Garris, who is the author of Biblical Masculinity. Yes, we are discussing

00:01:11.560 biblical patriarchy. We are discussing male headship. We're dealing with some of the most

00:01:17.920 difficult and controversial questions in the Bible. Are women more easily deceived than men?

00:01:25.120 Will Christian women be saved in any particular way through childbearing? This episode is a bit

00:01:33.380 spicy. It's sure to anger a feminist, so you do us a favor and be sure to share it with one. 1.00

00:01:39.480 Let's tune in now. Applying God's Word to every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied. 1.00

00:01:50.700 All right, welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied. I am your host, Pastor Joel

00:01:54.920 Webin with Right Response Ministries, and in this episode, I'm privileged to welcome onto the show

00:02:00.180 for the first time, Zach Garris.

00:02:02.460 Zach, thanks for joining us.

00:02:04.800 Thanks for having me, Joel.

00:02:06.340 Absolutely.

00:02:06.880 So tell our listeners,

00:02:07.820 what is the book that you recently wrote?

00:02:09.540 You published with Canon.

00:02:10.500 I just listened to the Audible version

00:02:12.160 that's on the Canon Plus app.

00:02:13.660 What's the name of it and why'd you write it?

00:02:16.440 Well, the book is Masculine Christianity.

00:02:18.640 It's been out for a little bit,

00:02:19.940 but it just came out on audiobook

00:02:22.320 and yeah, Canon has it on the Canon Plus app.

00:02:27.200 Yeah, the reason I wrote it is I,

00:02:29.060 I had read a lot of the works out there on feminism, especially egalitarianism within the church, and I think I was just dissatisfied with a lot of the literature.

00:02:44.460 I mean, there's some good books that I would recommend, but I basically tried to write a book that I thought filled the gap and would be a good resource for Christians, pastors, and laymen alike.

00:02:59.060 And covering not only feminism, but really digging into the scripture texts on relevant

00:03:05.920 subjects. 1.00

00:03:07.780 Yep.

00:03:08.900 Yeah, it's needed.

00:03:10.180 Well, I just, you know, just about finished listening to the book.

00:03:13.120 I told you offline before we started recording that I'm listening to it on the Canon Plus

00:03:16.980 app, and it's been really edifying and really helpful.

00:03:19.940 And one of the things that, you know, you draw out in the book is, well, I can maybe

00:03:25.040 say it like this.

00:03:25.600 So there's a meme that I've seen floating around in the Twitterverse, you know, that

00:03:30.140 has a picture of Ron Swanson from Parks and Recreation.

00:03:33.100 And there's a scene in that show where he says, I think he's sitting at like a Denny's

00:03:37.980 or something like that, or an IHOP, and he's ordering his breakfast.

00:03:41.080 And he says, bring me all of your eggs.

00:03:43.240 And the server says, very good.

00:03:44.700 You know, it starts to walk away and he says, wait, wait, wait.

00:03:46.680 All right.

00:03:47.020 Now, I think he said, you heard me say, bring me a lot of eggs.

00:03:51.780 But what I said is bring me all of your eggs. 1.00

00:03:54.600 And so the meme is a picture of Ron Swanson and he says, feminism is bad. And he says, now, wait,

00:04:00.060 wait, wait. I think what you heard is that second and third wave feminism is bad. But what I said is 1.00

00:04:06.580 feminism is bad. All of it, all of it. And so anyway, so all that being said, that's one of 1.00

00:04:13.220 the things that you cover in the book that I found insightful. Tell our listeners a little bit about

00:04:18.040 first wave feminism, how it relates to second wave and third wave and how those egalitarian

00:04:24.500 you know just unbiblical roots were were in this movement from the very beginning

00:04:30.440 yeah well it's uh it's common for christians especially to say uh that you know second

00:04:39.640 second wave feminism 1960s and 70s uh was was a problem and that that's really the source of

00:04:48.160 feminism today in the church. But I think that's mistaken. And I think first wave feminism,

00:04:57.320 which began in the mid 1800s, really was the basis for second wave feminism. I don't think

00:05:05.660 you would have had second wave feminism without the first. There's a connection there built off 1.00

00:05:11.320 of it. And I know a lot of people say, well, how can you have a problem with first wave feminism? 1.00

00:05:15.940 It's just, you know, giving women the right to vote and property rights and all these things. 0.79

00:05:20.500 And I think the problem with it was that at its root, first wave feminism was rebellion against male headship. 0.58

00:05:33.560 Yeah. And splitting the household. 1.00

00:05:37.500 Yeah. I mean, that's the thing is, you know, when you think about a woman having the right to vote, 0.99

00:05:43.120 That in and of itself doesn't seem like a problem or a bad thing, but it's the fact that men represented their families, their wives, in the voting booth. 0.74

00:05:55.300 And so that was taken away with women's suffrage.

00:06:01.720 And so now you have it where women can and often do vote against their husbands.

00:06:06.980 And I think that's, of course, a bad thing.

00:06:10.300 I mean, if you're voting the same way, you could say you're having, you know, two votes for the same candidate.

00:06:15.200 But so so it's just a it's a really a philosophical problem in that it's it's undercutting male headship in the home.

00:06:22.820 And when you read the advocates of first wave feminism, Elizabeth Cady Stanton being, you know, one of the most prominent, but also the most radical.

00:06:34.220 and you read her words i mean she's saying we want uh not just the right to vote but we want

00:06:43.900 something basically uh kin to no-fault divorce right uh and that's that's long before you know

00:06:53.220 it's like 100 years before it actually came about in the united states um she's saying we want equal

00:06:58.260 rights in the church i mean you know i have i include some quotes in the book on this and so 0.93

00:07:04.340 um yeah this this was not just a limited movement about voting first wave feminism was very much

00:07:11.940 wrapped up with really a a revolution a rebellion against god's design for men and women in

00:07:20.660 particularly the household yeah definitely um you know today i you know so i've said a couple

00:07:26.660 times online that I would be for repealing the 19th Amendment. But I think it's worth clarifying

00:07:34.800 my position. My wife votes, and she votes because the household vote has been, I believe, a sinful

00:07:42.020 decision, namely the 19th Amendment. The household vote has been split. It's been divided.

00:07:48.920 And so my wife, she votes with me, alongside me, under my headship, so that we get a full household

00:07:55.260 vote because really what women's suffrage did is it took my vote and cut it in half and so i in the

00:08:01.620 name of you know one of the things that like with young guys that i'm always trying to you know to

00:08:06.240 keep in check is um idealism you know just some young guys they're ideologues right so they they

00:08:12.840 hear about something like patriarchy and they read one you know article on it and yeah i'm 0.95

00:08:17.580 patriarchal you know and they and but they um they're just they're losers like and i mean that 0.97

00:08:23.360 in the functional sense. They can't win. They're not successful, right? I'm talking about single 0.98

00:08:28.720 guys. They can't even get married or have kids. They're fluctuating in and out of different 0.91

00:08:34.840 careers. And so they're like, hey, it's not glorifying to God for women to vote. And I'm 1.00

00:08:40.600 saying, hey, I think we should repeal the 19th Amendment. That's going to take time to get there. 0.69

00:08:45.300 That's the right decision. But what do Christian women do in the meantime? Well, I think Christian 1.00

00:08:49.220 married women should uh should supplement their husband so that they get a full household vote 0.98

00:08:53.940 they should submit to their husband his leadership and vote alongside him so all that being said for

00:08:58.740 anybody who's listening saying you don't think so you're saying that christian women shouldn't vote

00:09:02.020 no i'm saying christian women should vote alongside with their husbands if they're single they should

00:09:06.720 vote alongside with their pastors if they are their their fathers and if they have an estranged

00:09:12.280 relationship with their father their father's an unbeliever and they're not married then they should

00:09:16.080 seek counsel from their elders, and their elders, if they're solid biblical men, should be willing

00:09:20.880 to apply the scripture even to the realm of politics and give counsel about which principles

00:09:26.140 to vote. You can do that without endorsing a candidate, which even that I'd be fine with,

00:09:30.260 but you don't have to say a specific guy. You can just say, okay, well, theft is sin. Civil

00:09:35.140 theft is still sin, so socialism is out. It's not that hard, and real quick, you can figure out what

00:09:41.720 to do. So anyways, I'm pro-Christian women voting in the meantime, because I want to win the war. 0.97

00:09:48.400 I don't want to be an ideologue who's just constantly losing everything. But I do think 0.75

00:09:53.620 that in theory, and I think you do too from reading your book, that that was a sinful decision

00:09:57.980 that was usurping a husband's authority. And it was just against the main principle that we've

00:10:03.240 always believed in our nation, which is it's not just a raw democracy, it's a representative

00:10:08.180 government. We have a representative republic, a constitutional republic. And so the idea that

00:10:14.620 we would have legislators who represent us, that's the same principle as having a husband

00:10:19.740 or a father that represents wives and daughters and sons. The smallest unit in our nation is not

00:10:29.680 supposed to be individuals. It should be households. Would you agree with that, Zach? 0.58

00:10:34.120 anything you would add to that yeah absolutely i think that's um that's right is god deals with

00:10:42.220 households and um you know you you see you see this in scripture he doesn't just just deal with

00:10:49.660 individuals obviously we will be judged before him as individuals right um but the the concept

00:10:56.200 of the household is all throughout the bible um and you see male headship uh of course in the new

00:11:02.620 Testament, Ephesians 5, Colossians 3, other passages. Also in the Old Covenant, comes up

00:11:10.380 some in the Book of Numbers, chapter 5 and chapter 30 there. And I also argue the creation account,

00:11:16.860 of course. So that's how God deals with people. And he designed male headship for

00:11:24.460 the good of everyone, men and women and children. And so I think that has to have some

00:11:30.860 application to the civil sphere. And it used to, I mean, it used to be treated that way. I mean,

00:11:40.160 male headship was recognized. I think, yeah, when you criticize first wave feminism or just

00:11:49.440 universal suffrage in general, you know, it's a very unpopular thing to say, but very politically

00:11:56.640 incorrect, but, you know, I really just have one chapter, the first chapter in the book

00:12:01.800 on that. And part of my goal there was to expose people to the truth about first wave feminism.

00:12:10.860 And I get, I give a lot of quotes from some of these leaders so that you can just read it

00:12:15.240 yourself. Um, yeah, I'm, I'm with you. I'm not trying to say we should, uh, or that we're even

00:12:22.200 a position right now to right to be overly idealistic yeah but we shouldn't be overly

00:12:27.400 overly idealistic as a pastor i'm not saying to women in my church hey you shouldn't vote i'm

00:12:32.180 saying you should vote righteously and you should vote um in in the spirit of voting righteously

00:12:37.740 you should be voting in line with your husbands but absolutely yeah we can't evangelicals can't

00:12:42.960 afford to uh to cut our vote in half um in in an ideologue principle uh we're evangelicals are

00:12:49.580 already too good at losing. We don't need any help at losing worse. But we're speaking in

00:12:55.580 principle of what would be right. And so we're saying that the national... So if there was

00:12:59.780 something... For instance, if I had an opportunity to vote to repeal the 19th Amendment, here's the

00:13:05.320 irony. I and my wife would vote for that. She would. And not just because I told her to, but 0.68

00:13:11.740 she shares that conviction because I've washed her in the word. I've discipled her. I've been

00:13:16.560 leading her. She trusts me. She trusts the scripture. So we would both, me and my wife

00:13:21.480 would be voting to repeal the 19th amendment until it's repealed though. She's going to be 0.89

00:13:26.220 voting on every other issue alongside me as I seek to lead us in following the scripture and

00:13:33.200 applying the whole counsel of God to the whole human life. So could you do this for us just so

00:13:38.420 some of our listeners and even me, it's always a helpful refresher. What are some of the key

00:13:43.360 distinctions between first wave, second wave, third wave, and I guess now fourth wave transing

00:13:50.400 kids, whatever we're on now, but particularly first, second, and third wave feminism, what are

00:13:56.860 the key distinctions between, what are the differences? Well, first wave feminism was 1.00

00:14:03.280 primarily concerned with legal equality, and the emphasis was on voting. I mean, there were some 0.68

00:14:11.100 other issues that came up. But that was the focus, though there were other things at play

00:14:17.600 that I mentioned. That was the mid-1800s, and the 19th Amendment, I think it went into

00:14:27.240 effect in 1920, if I'm not mistaken. And so it's another 40 plus years when you have

00:14:38.900 second wave feminism, 1960s and 70s. And that was really more of a social movement. And I mean, 0.99

00:14:49.740 you had some legal aspects. I mean, you had the push for the Equal Rights Amendment,

00:14:56.340 which actually failed, but they ended up implementing all of this in the courts anyway. 0.99

00:15:01.000 and uh that had to do with i mean even getting rid of well they ended up getting rid of women's

00:15:10.180 colleges uh as far as the funding state funding because that's not equal i mean so 1.00

00:15:15.640 um i mean there's a lot of details there but most people know second wave feminism for 0.98

00:15:21.080 the social aspect it's tied with sexual liberation and the sexual revolution and uh you know so you 0.79

00:15:29.080 have Gloria Steinem and some of those other leaders. So this is like the sixties, right?

00:15:34.000 Yeah. Yeah. And so the way I really characterize that is they were pushing for men, uh, or sorry,

00:15:39.680 women to leave the home. So, and especially to take on careers like men outside the home. So

00:15:48.300 that's how I like to characterize that is, uh, it's obviously much more radical than first wave 1.00

00:15:54.280 feminism, but I would argue the seeds of it were there before. Um, and so that's really what we're 1.00

00:16:00.200 living with today is, is women having the mindset, um, that what they're not valuable, uh, they're 1.00

00:16:08.900 not doing something productive in society unless they're out working a job, you know, 40 hours a 1.00

00:16:14.700 week. And that's, uh, I mean, that's contrary to scripture, of course. Um, and, and I argue the

00:16:22.880 Bible doesn't prohibit women from working outside the home, but there is an emphasis on duties that 0.99

00:16:28.940 revolve around the home. And so that if they're doing those, having, you know, they're married, 0.98

00:16:34.320 having children, raising their children, that doesn't really leave a lot of time or energy

00:16:39.740 to work much outside the home. And I realize this gets into also controversial territory, but

00:16:46.120 I think it's important that we understand the background of feminism that has led to this

00:16:52.820 situation. And of course you mentioned third wave feminism. Yeah. I don't even know what

00:16:57.020 they always call it today, but it, it, it keeps, um, getting even more radical. It's,

00:17:03.180 it's tied with homosexuality and, uh, you know, it's kind of, I guess you could say the seeds

00:17:08.600 were there in second wave feminism and that if, uh, uh, a woman doesn't need a man or if she can

00:17:14.740 be this independent woman, then if you're really consistent with that, then she's not even going

00:17:21.180 need a man at all and then she's maybe a lesbian or something like that so um that's yeah that's

00:17:28.220 where we are now dealing with transgenderism and all that stuff right and i think a lot of you know 0.91

00:17:32.380 the homosexuality um all the lgbt jihad craziness has come out of um the the sameness aspect that 0.94

00:17:40.700 egalitarianism it's not just equality but it's it's androgyny it's it's sameness and so like you 1.00

00:17:46.380 you know, like the, you know, the push for the pill, you know, the hormonal birth control pill,

00:17:53.180 which has abortive risk involved in it. And Christians need to be aware of those kinds of

00:17:58.980 things. But, you know, the push for that was basically if women can't have control, if they 1.00

00:18:05.740 don't have complete control over their reproductive process and whether or not they're pregnant and

00:18:12.080 these kinds of things, then they're not equal to men because they're not the same as men, right? 0.90

00:18:17.400 So to be the same as a man, I have to, you know, a man can't get pregnant. A man's never, his career 0.90

00:18:22.640 is never interrupted for nine months with a pregnancy, you know? And so we'll never really 0.74

00:18:27.260 be equal to men unless we're exactly the same as men. And to be exactly the same as men,

00:18:32.520 that involves everything from, you know, short haircuts and wearing, you know, I mean, you even 0.72

00:18:37.740 see like the dress changes with women. We're not wearing dresses, we're wearing business suits, 0.66

00:18:41.760 You know, and so the way we look, the way we dress, all the way down to abortion and the fact that we kill our children, you know, all coming out of this egalitarian, you know, equality.

00:18:54.000 But it's not just equality, it's sameness.

00:18:56.500 And that's one of the things you did really well, I think, in the book is just drawing the distinction between there's a distinction between equality of value versus sameness in terms of function and role and hierarchical authority.

00:19:10.520 Could you talk a little bit about that?

00:19:13.900 Yeah, I think that's right on what you said regarding equality.

00:19:20.320 I mean, that's obviously the root word there with egalitarianism is, you know, this really it's a philosophy, a worldview that men and women are the same or as similar as possible. 0.77

00:19:39.860 Obviously, they have different sexual organs.

00:19:45.080 Of course, that's what they've sought to minimize.

00:19:49.640 So the pill does that, right? 1.00

00:19:52.000 The birth control pill played a huge role in second wave feminism, as has abortion, right? 1.00

00:19:59.460 So if a woman still gets pregnant and she doesn't want a baby, then she seeks to kill it. 1.00

00:20:04.960 Of course, we're still living with those effects today. 0.91

00:20:07.240 So this stuff's all with us.

00:20:08.960 Um, uh, but yeah, so, so one thing I, I try to argue is in the book is men and women are both

00:20:18.760 made in the image of God. They're, they're two different types of humans. Uh, they both reflect

00:20:24.620 God's glory. Um, and they are both equal and worth and value. And, um, they are, uh, I guess

00:20:35.920 we could say near equals and spiritually, of course, we're spiritual equals. I mean, that's

00:20:41.940 what the egalitarians always like to go to Galatians three, uh, 20 and 29. It does teach

00:20:48.840 that men and women are, um, yeah, co-heirs in Christ, spiritual equals, but that does not do

00:20:56.000 away with, uh, you know, sexual distinctions in this life, um, that God has, he's designed us

00:21:03.680 differently but there's different duties and uh i even argue you know different rank that's right

00:21:09.860 things um male headship and um so yeah these things have been rejected by by modern feminism

00:21:17.080 yeah it's it's funny you know one of the things you covered in the book and i've i've done this

00:21:21.980 in some of my preaching on biblical patriarchy and trying to you know to raise up a defense

00:21:27.740 against egalitarianism. But Ephesians, you know, thinking of Ephesians 5, you know, husbands are

00:21:33.940 called to love their wives as Christ loved the church, and wife is called to submit to her

00:21:38.380 husband as the church submits to Christ. And the egalitarians, you know, are always quick to say, 0.53

00:21:43.420 well, let's back up, let's back up. You know, first we see, you know, mutual submission to

00:21:47.420 one another under Christ. And it's funny because, you know, I mean, we have chapters and verses

00:21:52.060 that are, I'm glad for the numbers in our Bible, you know, breaking it up into chapters and verses,

00:21:57.340 it makes it incredibly helpful. And I think, you know, the scholars involved with those kinds of

00:22:02.120 decisions did a fairly good job. There's some points where I'm like, ah, I wish it just kept

00:22:06.340 going and you didn't break it up right there. But all that being said, it's very clear that that's

00:22:11.760 the headline. That's the overarching banner is there's going to be this mutual submission to

00:22:16.180 one another under Christ. And it's not mutual submission, husband and wife. It's just talking

00:22:20.800 about people, mutually Christians, brothers and sisters in a much larger dynamic than just a

00:22:25.680 singular household in a marriage between one man and one woman it's all of you believers in varying

00:22:31.700 capacities are going to be submitting to one another deference towards one another in your

00:22:35.880 ultimate as a reflection of your ultimate submission to christ and then he the way it

00:22:39.800 should be read is and now let me give you not one but a few case studies examples of the principle

00:22:45.220 and so this is what it looks like in marriage um a husband is loving and you know loving his wife

00:22:49.840 is christ of the church and and the wife is submitting to her husband but that what's funny

00:22:54.060 for the egalitarian is I've, and I've done this in my counseling before with a few individuals

00:22:58.380 in pastoral counseling. Um, but I've said, you know, I've had a couple unruly wives from time

00:23:03.740 to time, you know, who like, Oh, I don't know. I don't agree with, you know, submitting to my

00:23:08.040 husband. I don't think that's what the Bible is saying. And they'll, and they'll point to that

00:23:11.040 verse in Ephesians and say, it's mutual submission. Um, and I'll say, yeah, it's mutual submission,

00:23:16.100 but then it's wives submit to husbands. And I, um, I said that principle that you're using 0.83

00:23:21.960 to override the wife submitting to the husband 0.63

00:23:24.860 and just say, well, it's just mutual submission.

00:23:26.740 You have to do that with all the case studies.

00:23:28.520 So you have to do that with slave and master.

00:23:30.360 And in our society,

00:23:31.360 you'd have to do that with employer and employee.

00:23:34.180 So the employee can just go in there to his boss

00:23:36.700 and he can be three hours late.

00:23:39.120 And if the boss tries to correct him,

00:23:40.320 he says, who are you?

00:23:41.440 You're not in charge. 1.00

00:23:42.540 But more than that, you feminist mom, 1.00

00:23:45.000 egalitarian mom arguing this point, 1.00

00:23:47.580 I want to see you submitting to your kids. 1.00

00:23:50.220 I want to see it.

00:23:50.840 I want to see that mutual, because that's the other example.

00:23:53.500 The case study is husband and wife, and then it's, you know, master-slave dynamic, but

00:23:57.600 then it's also parent and child.

00:24:00.000 Children, obey your parents.

00:24:02.140 But if we say, well, my children are Christian, praise God, you know, they've made a credible

00:24:06.100 profession of faith, they're members in the local church.

00:24:08.780 This is not just my son or my daughter.

00:24:10.340 This is my, in the eternal sense, my brother in Christ, my sister in Christ, and they're

00:24:16.200 nine.

00:24:16.820 and what that means is that um that we ultimately have to have a democratic vote every time we're

00:24:23.620 trying to make a decision i i don't really have any more authority in the home than my child does

00:24:27.440 sometimes you know i i have a bad attitude my my nine-year-old sends me to my room and i just have

00:24:32.500 to go in there and you know what i mean like that's insane that's insane how so how do people

00:24:37.860 read the bible like that i don't i don't get it what well i i yeah i i don't understand it either

00:24:44.260 because, you know, it's funny.

00:24:47.480 They make these arguments from Ephesians 5 with one verse.

00:24:52.260 I think it's verse 19.

00:24:55.500 Right, that's right.

00:24:56.160 Yeah, I think so.

00:24:56.860 Around there, 20, mutual submission, submitting to one another.

00:25:01.960 But they never make these arguments, or I don't think they can, 0.51

00:25:05.580 from Colossians 3, which also commands wives to submit to their husbands.

00:25:10.880 and then it says husbands don't be harsh with your wives um there's nothing in there about

00:25:16.080 mutual submission first peter three right i mean first peter three right you have sarah calling uh

00:25:22.220 abraham lord and um and you are her daughters if you yeah if you act like her so right there's

00:25:31.080 really no way around it and then of course the old testament um i mean i i know the egalitarians

00:25:36.380 argue for, um, equality, uh, like no hierarchy, no, no authority in, um, the creation story.

00:25:45.580 But, uh, uh, I think that, I think they're wrong there, of course. Um, and I, I have a couple

00:25:52.060 chapters on that, but, but also the book of numbers, uh, I mentioned this earlier, numbers

00:25:56.540 five speaks of a, um, um, you know, it's that weird passage about the, uh, husband suspects

00:26:03.160 his wife of adultery and uh there's the the she drinks the bitter water well i mentioned that

00:26:08.840 because twice in there it's it's or maybe three times it speaks of her being uh under her husband

00:26:14.840 which every translation i've looked at says under the authority of her husband that's that's what's

00:26:19.720 what it's getting at and then you have the um vows in numbers chapter 30 where a father can

00:26:27.480 um annul his daughter's vow if she's in his household he hears it and the husband can do

00:26:34.360 the same for his wife and but it doesn't say the wife can do that for the husband

00:26:40.040 right um so you have this all throughout the bible uh that that the husband is the head of

00:26:46.120 his household and yet the egalitarians are going to point to one verse in ephesians 5

00:26:52.680 they think somehow undermines everything else Paul says right after it but so as

00:26:57.820 far as how are they how are they doing this well how are they reading the Bible

00:27:02.280 this way well they're reading the Bible very poorly and they're forcing their

00:27:09.560 philosophy their preconceived egalitarian philosophy on the text

00:27:15.960 they're not doing exegesis I mean I know we all come to the Bible with presuppositions

00:27:21.720 and beliefs we recognize that but um they're not giving this a fair uh shot they're not actually

00:27:30.280 trying to see what does the bible command me as a christian to do they're coming in assuming it

00:27:37.400 could not possibly teach hierarchy and male headship um well some of them do think it it

00:27:46.120 teaches that and then they reject it but you know right now we're going in a different direction so

00:27:50.840 Right. Give us a couple. So you said, you know, you believe, and I agree, but you believe that

00:27:57.180 male headship, that it predated the fall. It's a prelapsarian reality that before sin entered the

00:28:06.140 world, Adam and Eve, there were only two people. We didn't get very far before, you know, the

00:28:10.520 covenant works was broken. But for that brief moment, as bliss as it may have been with only

00:28:15.040 two people, there was a hierarchy within those two people. There was male headship that Adam

00:28:19.460 had authority over his wife.

00:28:22.200 So give us, before Genesis 3, give us some,

00:28:25.880 well, I mean, you can use Genesis 3,

00:28:27.420 but before sin and the curse, give us some indicators.

00:28:30.900 What would you use as your biblical support

00:28:34.720 for saying male headship was a thing

00:28:36.400 before sin entered the world?

00:28:39.160 Yeah, so there is Genesis 3.16,

00:28:41.920 which I think is actually somewhat of a difficult verse,

00:28:45.360 but it deals with this to some extent but as far as is that your desire should be for your husband

00:28:55.420 but he will yeah yeah yeah you're yeah so i i kind of have a different take on it though i think it's

00:29:00.400 i think it's uh basically saying that there's going to be a abuse of a male authority as a

00:29:09.340 result of the fall so you would see it as a curse on both sides right that your desire is is contrary

00:29:14.500 to your husband. You're going to have a desire to rule over your husband. I'm going to Genesis 4

00:29:21.320 with Cain, because it's the same word, and you did a great job with that in your book. 0.98

00:29:28.180 So the wife, the curse on her end is she's going to want to rule over her husband. It's not just 0.61

00:29:32.820 like romantic, erotic desire. Your desire, your sweet romantic desire is going to be for your

00:29:37.000 husband, but that mean old bully is going to dominate you. No, you're going to have a desire

00:29:43.500 of wanting to master, be master of your husband, but he who is master over you will rule in a

00:29:50.800 unrighteous, because the biblical prescription to men is not that we shouldn't rule, it's that we

00:29:56.300 should rule righteously. So he's going to, at times, be totalitarian and rule unrighteously,

00:30:01.900 be harsh, domineering. But you also, there's going to be something in you and animosity

00:30:08.520 even towards righteous male headship? Do you see it on both sides, the curse?

00:30:15.360 Well, I think I argue in the book that that's certainly one option. I conclude in that section

00:30:24.100 that there's actually some linguistic study suggesting that the word desire there should

00:30:30.200 be translated devotion. And so I think if I recall correctly, I argue that it essentially

00:30:37.520 means even though your devotion is to your husband, he's going to abuse authority over

00:30:42.340 you.

00:30:42.680 Okay.

00:30:43.060 So I, because it's in the, it's in the context of the judgment on the woman.

00:30:48.840 But, but what you're saying is also a possibility.

00:30:51.120 I, I pretty much.

00:30:52.660 I just think of it in terms of the Genesis four, like a sins, does it desires to have

00:30:57.400 you, right? 0.66

00:30:57.780 Sin is like, yeah, yeah.

00:30:58.860 Like a lion crouching at your door.

00:31:00.640 It desires to have you, you know, and I guess it could be used in two different ways there.

00:31:05.960 But to me, it doesn't read as clearly as sin is devoted to you.

00:31:12.140 But it seems like sin wants to get you.

00:31:14.420 It wants to pounce and to dominate.

00:31:17.000 Yeah, I think that's definitely the meaning in Genesis 4.

00:31:20.960 Genesis 4.

00:31:22.020 You just don't think it's a one-to-one ratio.

00:31:23.780 I get it.

00:31:24.680 Yeah, yeah.

00:31:25.460 But anyway, I mean, I basically say, look, this is a tough passage.

00:31:29.640 I try to work my way through it and come to a conclusion there.

00:31:32.280 And then I say, regardless, though, this stuff, you know, on both ends is certainly a part of the fall, right?

00:31:40.160 I mean, we definitely have what you're saying, whether it's rooted in Genesis 3, 16 or not. 0.78

00:31:44.420 It's surely the case that a man is prone to abuse authority and a woman is prone to or inclined to usurp authority. 0.97

00:31:55.560 I mean, we see that play out in the world. 1.00

00:31:57.640 It's not a question about that.

00:32:00.740 But you want me to go back to...

00:32:02.420 Yeah, so give us some other indicators because I'm just, you know, playing the devil's advocate for a moment.

00:32:06.820 I can hear the contrarian saying, well, I read Genesis 3.16 and I like, oh, Zach, you actually just helped my egalitarian argument out by saying devotion.

00:32:16.740 You know, Joel was way more patriarchal, you know, but like, so the sweet woman is simply devoted to her husband, just wants to love him and to serve him.

00:32:24.380 And the curse is that she's going to be devoted to someone who is not mutually devoted to her.

00:32:29.080 She's going to be devoted and submitting and serving someone,

00:32:31.540 but he's not going to serve her.

00:32:32.800 He's instead going to rule.

00:32:34.840 And you're going to say, well, that's dominate.

00:32:36.820 It's unrighteous rule.

00:32:39.640 It's taking rule too far.

00:32:41.260 And they're going to say, no, the text just says rule.

00:32:43.340 Rule is bad, Zach.

00:32:45.480 Rule is bad.

00:32:46.600 So thanks, Zach.

00:32:47.840 You just helped me out with Genesis 3.16.

00:32:49.880 So my point is playing the devil's advocate, steel manning.

00:32:53.380 It's hard to steel man such a bad position as egalitarianism.

00:32:56.860 But if we can, what are some, you know, before Genesis 3.16, some other indicators of male headship before sin entered?

00:33:04.240 And I'll just say to preface this, this is important because, like you said, the egalitarian will say that male headship is introduced in Genesis 3.16.

00:33:16.460 And therefore, in Christ, it's being overcome, right?

00:33:20.720 We're overcoming the fall in Christ.

00:33:22.280 And so we should be getting back to near equality.

00:33:25.640 Of course, that doesn't make sense when you take into account the New Testament. 0.98

00:33:30.780 You'd have to go beyond the New Testament instructions for women to submit. 0.99

00:33:35.280 Well, and that's what they would say, though. 0.88

00:33:36.340 They'd say, well, the New Testament doesn't give direct instructions, explicit instructions to liberate, emancipate slaves.

00:33:44.140 But the writings of Paul eventually would lead to that outcome and the abolition of slavery, which I tend to agree with.

00:33:50.920 And so then they would make that similar argument saying, so yeah, sure, the New Testament tells slaves to submit to their masters and tells wives to submit to their husbands, but the underpinnings is that throughout Christendom, as things unfold and as the gospel drives deeper into individual hearts and into society, eventually patriarchy would be a dirty relic of the past.

00:34:12.480 yeah it's this trajectory uh hermeneutic um of course just to strengthen the argument here

00:34:20.580 we're going to get to genesis in a second is uh the new testament is uh you know when you

00:34:27.460 i know you uh i think you want to get into first timothy 2 and that'd be great both of those appeal

00:34:32.780 to the law or you know how to be informed first so this stuff's always going to the creation

00:34:38.860 so that's why this is just that important okay so in my book i think i give 10 um arguments for

00:34:49.100 uh male headship in genesis 1 and 2 wow now i wouldn't i can't name them all off the top of my

00:34:55.620 head right now i'll try to think of you didn't memorize your own book so somehow i uh i took

00:35:02.960 you know some of the arguments you see with like wayne grudem and some other guys and i i just

00:35:08.140 i had some of my own and i i got to a total of 10 okay i i think um i'll list off a couple of

00:35:15.720 them here um so you you do have adam being formed first which that's that's what uh paul gets into

00:35:23.920 in first in the two so i think that that matters and then you know the text says that um eve was

00:35:31.300 created as a helper for him now egalitarians are quick to point out well help you know god is

00:35:38.060 called a helper so it doesn't the advocate you know it it must be equal but you know obviously

00:35:43.500 those are different um you're referring to different beings i mean i think that's one

00:35:47.400 thing i i'd say in the book is uh obviously god is god and he's not submitting uh you know

00:35:54.260 uh to adam or beneath man in rank right um but we're talking about a created being

00:36:02.140 and a particularly a being created for Adam.

00:36:08.120 And so she is a helper to him.

00:36:11.580 I mean, Paul, of course, reasons this way in 1 Corinthians 11,

00:36:14.980 for woman was made for man, not man for woman. 0.97

00:36:18.200 Right.

00:36:18.860 I think it's verse 7 or 8, I can't remember.

00:36:21.680 Right, yeah, from man and for man, yeah.

00:36:24.760 Yeah, yeah.

00:36:25.380 So, I mean, in this way, I'm just reasoning like the Apostle Paul.

00:36:29.880 Right.

00:36:30.140 Um, so you have that, you have Adam naming the animals, uh, which I think is, you know,

00:36:36.960 he's exercising authority on some, some capacity.

00:36:39.860 He names Eve, uh, right.

00:36:42.260 Uh, he says she'll be named, uh, uh, uh, Esha, the woman.

00:36:46.360 And then, and then he actually names her after the fall.

00:36:48.960 He names her, uh, Eve life, life giving being, um, is, is it, can you translate it like a

00:36:56.760 mother of all the living or?

00:36:58.560 Yeah.

00:36:58.820 Yeah, I think that's, I think the ESV even footnotes it as that.

00:37:04.860 So, okay, so you have that.

00:37:08.760 You have the fact that Adam was supposed to instruct his wife with the command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

00:37:19.220 Because the command is given by God to Adam when Eve has not yet been made.

00:37:24.280 yeah we have there's no evidence that eve was uh given this command directly from god gotcha

00:37:30.020 it seems that adam was uh to instruct her so he in that sense he's her teacher right um

00:37:37.340 god goes to adam first well now i'm getting to genesis 3 but uh but this is still sins yeah

00:37:44.920 yeah he goes to adam first and so i think that's that's pretty important adam where are you

00:37:50.800 Of course, he blames his wife.

00:37:54.780 Right.

00:37:56.940 He blames God, really.

00:37:59.360 Yeah, right.

00:38:00.440 The helper that you gave me wasn't much help.

00:38:04.180 Yeah.

00:38:05.120 We could definitely go to Romans 5.

00:38:08.140 Humans are born in sin, were held accountable by Adam's federal headship.

00:38:15.560 Adams, not Eve's.

00:38:17.640 i mean the text doesn't talk about eve um right you know it's because adam sinned and specifically

00:38:24.840 says by one man's sin not to absolutely absolutely and so uh you know jesus is the second and and

00:38:34.360 greater adam um and so you have you have that there uh so that's at least a few that's great

00:38:41.160 that's that's really helpful i think when you you know because egalitarians will argue you know

00:38:46.360 respond to each of these but when you have the cumulative case it's really hard to say that

00:38:52.120 there's no male headship in in the um in the garden right yeah no i think you're right and

00:38:58.760 especially when you have apostolic writings you know afterwards in the new testament pulling on

00:39:06.600 the creation you know the created order uh to make an argument for why this this um hierarchical

00:39:13.720 you know, pattern is going to exist in all places in all times. Like, Paul doesn't say,

00:39:18.780 well, there's this particular issue going on in Corinth of temple prostitution, which

00:39:22.720 I've, from what I've read on that, there's not enough evidence to even say that that was actually

00:39:28.640 even a thing, you know. But let's just, you know, let's just, you know, go with it for a second,

00:39:33.400 say there was a unique, you know, element of temple prostitution that was going on in Corinth.

00:39:38.320 But Paul said that's not his argument. He doesn't say, well, because Corinth in this place in this

00:39:43.080 time is so lewd you know women should cover their heads you know or um you know a wife should submit

00:39:49.260 to her husband like when he makes his argument for male headship he he pins it in in the created 0.97

00:39:56.580 order before sin ever even entered the world it which makes it it's timeless you know so it's

00:40:01.900 yeah it's just it's just a hard position to defend this whole egalitarianism thing

00:40:08.220 But Scott McKnight, he'll keep trying.

00:40:12.320 Yeah, they don't stop.

00:40:13.480 They keep writing books.

00:40:14.740 Yeah, they'll keep trying.

00:40:16.360 Okay, if you don't mind, you want to go ahead and hop into 1 Timothy 2 a little bit?

00:40:21.580 Yeah, absolutely.

00:40:22.840 Let's do that.

00:40:23.500 Let me read the text real quick.

00:40:25.080 And I particularly want to hear your thoughts on women being saved through childbearing, which I believe is verse 15.

00:40:31.340 But I'll start in verse 9.

00:40:32.700 This is 1 Timothy 2, starting in verse 9.

00:40:36.180 The Bible says,

00:41:06.180 Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she 0.89

00:41:12.040 will be saved through childbearing if they continue in faith and love and holiness with

00:41:18.180 self-control. Yeah. So, I mean, this is one of, if not the central text in debates over gender

00:41:29.620 roles, particularly in the church. And, you know, Ephesians 5 gets all the attention for the home,

00:41:35.660 But this is the passage we go to.

00:41:39.460 We're talking about, can women be pastors or elders?

00:41:43.040 Can women preach? 1.00

00:41:45.880 Right? 1.00

00:41:46.160 That's another question. 1.00

00:41:48.980 Unfortunately, I think there's some people who would say that a woman can't be a pastor, but she could preach. 1.00

00:41:55.020 She can preach under the authority of the elders. 1.00

00:41:57.220 Yeah. 0.96

00:41:57.540 Yeah.

00:41:58.180 Which I mean, this is very narrow complementarianism, if we can even call it that.

00:42:03.640 I mean, it's it's anyway. So, yeah, I think I think the context here is the public worship assembly based on verse eight, where Paul says, I desire that, you know, men should pray lifting holy hands. 0.54

00:42:18.440 But, you know, I wouldn't I wouldn't limit this to the public worship assembly. 0.97

00:42:25.880 In other words, I think this I think the principles here apply even to something like like Sunday school, like a man, you know, a woman shouldn't teach theology to to to men in the church. 0.87

00:42:37.560 So that that gets into kind of the application of it. 0.89

00:42:42.140 So obviously, yeah, it's it's it's calling women in verse 10 to to good works.

00:42:48.440 You know, the people focus on verse 12. I do not permit a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man. But, you know, even if you said that's just an authoritative teaching and not teaching and exercise in authority, which sometimes the egalitarians argue. 1.00

00:43:06.480 I mean, look at what he says. He says, rather or but, right? That's an adversative. It's strong, but she is to remain quiet. I argue in the book that could also be translated silent.

00:43:18.580 um so the which is explicitly said in first corinthians 14 yeah yeah and we can get there

00:43:25.880 the the exact opposite thing right whatever this is about teacher exercise authority i mean you

00:43:33.160 have the positive command to be quiet or silent and it's um paul's saying this is you know this

00:43:41.180 is tied with good works in verse 10.

00:43:44.620 And so, you know, egalitarians really need to be careful here

00:43:49.080 because I think they are going, well, I think they're wrong, 0.98

00:43:52.800 but if they are wrong here, they're encouraging women to do that which is sinful, right? 0.92

00:44:03.500 Instead of encouraging them in good works and pleasing God,

00:44:07.500 They're encouraging them to sin against God and transgress His law.

00:44:12.560 So this is a serious thing.

00:44:15.960 Paul roots the command.

00:44:19.560 It's actually two commands in verse 12.

00:44:24.000 There's the prohibition, but also the command to be quiet.

00:44:28.280 He roots it in verse 13.

00:44:29.760 For, or we could say because Adam was formed first, then Eve.

00:44:34.800 So he's rooting it in the very order of creation.

00:44:37.500 And then there's the second explanation, which is, or basis, is that Adam, verse 14, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

00:44:49.160 Of course, that verse sends people into all sorts of hysteria.

00:44:54.180 Foaming at the mouth. 1.00

00:44:57.180 The angry feminist, I could see them foaming at the mouth. 0.87

00:45:01.100 So yeah, verse 14, I think, I mean, what seems to me the most obvious reading is not, you know, most people aren't willing to say today, but it seems that Paul is saying that because Eve was deceived and Adam was not, that that's part of the reason that women aren't to teach men. 0.67

00:45:25.100 Now, he doesn't tell us exactly what that means, like why was Eve deceived and why was Adam not deceived?

00:45:33.300 But it seems that he's saying there's something to do with the fact that Adam knew exactly what he was doing.

00:45:41.820 He sinned openly, whereas Eve actually was deceived by the serpent. 0.94

00:45:52.020 And so there's something about the very being of woman, the way God has made man and woman, that women should not teach. 0.99

00:46:04.040 So, you know, that's one thing I argue in the book. I think, you know, even if we look to just the differences, this is kind of a natural law argument, but if we just look to the very differences in bodies and personality and things like this between men and women, that, you know, men are better suited for preaching. 1.00

00:46:26.700 So I actually I actually am willing to go there and say, yeah, I don't think women make as capable preachers, not in the sense that they aren't intellectually or aren't intellectual or can't be or say good things. 0.88

00:46:39.480 But it's just that, you know, as far as the commanding voice, the fact that women, a woman was more easily deceived. 0.93

00:46:46.700 I think there's something there that is to the basis as to why God says men are supposed to preach, not all men, but some men and no women are to preach. 0.63

00:46:56.700 Right. Yeah, Charles Spurgeon would be with you. If a guy didn't have a barrel chest with his

00:47:03.440 school of preachers, he would have sent him away. So not only would you have to be a man, but you

00:47:08.320 need to be a particular kind of man, and he would take physical stature into consideration. But

00:47:12.800 you're right. I mean, that's a historic position. And I don't mean historic in the sense of that's

00:47:16.720 what people believed a thousand years ago. I mean, that's what people believed for thousands of years

00:47:20.400 until 15 minutes ago, that women, part of womanly nature is more easily being deceived.

00:47:29.300 And again, like you said, it's not even so much, it's not, being more gullible is not,

00:47:37.040 that doesn't stem from an inferior status in terms of, you know, intellect. It's not that

00:47:45.960 women are intellectually inferior. I think that's part of the way that God designed women, 1.00

00:47:51.460 which reaffirms their call to serve and helpmate and submission, is that my wife is just naturally

00:48:00.040 more agreeable than I am. And I think God made her that way. And you can say, well, that's your

00:48:05.200 wife. But no, I think women in general are more agreeable than men. Men are more contrarian. Men,

00:48:13.260 I think, tend to be more argumentative. They tend to be more aggressive. I think that's part of how

00:48:20.100 God made women. And there are always exceptions to the rule, like men are physically stronger

00:48:26.400 than women. Can you find one woman who can outbench one man? Of course, of course. But we're 1.00

00:48:32.520 speaking in general principles. Men are physically stronger than women. And I think that women are

00:48:39.100 more agreeable than men and and those who aren't are the exception and if you say well it's a

00:48:45.120 pretty big exception well i would say yeah it's a pretty big exception because you've been

00:48:49.380 indoctrinating women from the time they were little girls for the last you know seven decades 1.00

00:48:55.340 to to to be contrarian that they need to be more aggressive that they need in every magazine and 0.99

00:48:59.940 every you know tv show and every you know so um and yet even despite all that indoctrination

00:49:06.000 still to this day you you just go going against you know it's like jurassic park like every horror

00:49:12.280 movie basically the plot is um the plot is that you've got uh you've got all the modern man and

00:49:18.360 their technology and they're trying to basically uh go against nature and nature always wins that's

00:49:25.480 i mean pretty much every good horror movie jurassic park you know what it like life will find a way

00:49:30.260 You know, like, it's like we, you know, it's, it's, we can, we're bigger than nature and

00:49:34.420 nature ultimately ends up, you know, eating you and nature wins.

00:49:40.080 And so it's like, despite all the indoctrination, all the modern feminism philosophies and all 0.93

00:49:44.760 these things, um, like you, you still wind up with a bunch of women who are now 45 years

00:49:50.660 old and crying, uh, because like, I wish I had had kids and there's regret. 1.00

00:49:56.800 And you just can't undo that, no matter, I am woman, hear me roar, no matter how many feminist seminars you go to, no matter how many Hollywood TV shows, it doesn't matter. 1.00

00:50:07.360 You can't beat nature. 1.00

00:50:09.720 God designed things in a certain way.

00:50:13.340 Yeah, I was even thinking of, what is this, Titus 1, these are requirements for the elders.

00:50:21.740 and Titus 1.9

00:50:23.560 and

00:50:25.000 you know Paul there says that

00:50:27.460 well I mean

00:50:30.760 first off he says that verse 6

00:50:33.020 the elder is the same as 1 Timothy 3

00:50:35.800 an elder must be the man of one woman 0.98

00:50:38.020 so he should be a man 0.97

00:50:38.880 and I know they try to argue well it could be both

00:50:41.280 but

00:50:41.540 I think there's good reasons against that

00:50:45.780 but you also have that he's supposed to

00:50:48.440 you know

00:50:50.000 manage his household well that's at least

00:50:51.560 1 Timothy 3. It kind of gets to here. But verse 9 is, he must hold firm to the trustworthy word

00:50:56.500 as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction and sound doctrine, and also to

00:51:01.900 rebuke those who contradict it. Now, you know, obviously, like you said, there's exceptions. But

00:51:07.940 in general, that's something that a man is going to be much better suited for, you know, to rebuke

00:51:14.460 others in false teaching. You know, that's not something God is calling women to do in some

00:51:20.760 public public position so yeah so i agree with you there's obviously things there um as far as

00:51:25.100 god's design for us yeah you want to get to verse 15 yeah yeah if we can so you know i too yeah yeah

00:51:31.360 i've heard a lot of different you know and i'll throw some out there but you you go ahead and

00:51:35.280 start yet she will be saved through childbearing if they continue with faith and love and holiness

00:51:39.660 with self-control what do you think yeah so uh this is uh you know it's a tricky verse it's hard

00:51:46.920 because if you read it you know for the first time and you're like what in the world um you know she

00:51:53.640 first off it says she which seems to be a reference to the woman prior to the verse so eve uh but i

00:52:02.200 think it's actually a generic woman uh the woman will will be saved through childbearing well what

00:52:09.800 the world that seems totally against uh justification by faith alone and um you know

00:52:16.840 then the follow-up if they continue in faith so then it's in the plural if they continue in faith

00:52:22.040 right and love and holiness with self-control um you know so i think a pretty common position um

00:52:31.560 interpretation of this passage and i get into this in the book is that it refers to um

00:52:39.800 Jesus, right? The Messiah in some capacity. And, you know, I don't think that's the case. I don't

00:52:48.060 take the Messianic view. I think that Paul is saying, he's using the word childbearing as a,

00:52:56.160 what is it, a metonym? No, metonymy. Yeah, it's a part, no, synecdoche. I'm sorry,

00:53:05.880 confusing these literary terms uh synecdoche it's a part representing the whole so in other words

00:53:13.560 childbearing it's not that a woman is saved by having children it's that women are saved

00:53:22.040 through faith in christ but that faith expresses itself in a woman's proper duties right and so 0.93

00:53:31.320 childbearing stands for womanly behavior. And I think contextually, this makes good sense 0.97

00:53:38.580 because, you know, he had just, Paul had just told women to, you know, practice godliness and

00:53:48.320 good works, verse 10. And then he tells women to be submissive, learn quietly with all submissiveness.

00:53:55.040 and they're not to teach or exercise authority over men but remain quiet and so so paul is saying

00:54:03.020 don't act like men right these are tasks for men you women aren't to do that as christians

00:54:08.780 uh but here's what you are to do is your womanly duties and you know the most obvious 0.94

00:54:15.300 thing there is is women have children right they they get pregnant and they have babies and

00:54:23.400 and nurse them and take care of them and and so i think paul is calling women to um

00:54:31.400 to the duties that god has placed on them and and that's part of what it means to be a godly woman

00:54:36.040 yep i completely agree i think it's um i remember when i i preached the first timothy it was

00:54:41.960 was 2019 it may have been 18 i think it was 2019 and um and we had about a third of the church leave

00:54:54.580 um during you know during chapter two within about a month uh it might have been two months max but

00:55:02.140 we had about 40 you know 40 adults who were members leave the church and and part of it

00:55:08.540 you know, in their defense was I was changing my views. So it wasn't what they signed up for,

00:55:13.920 you know, because I bit off more than I could chew. I started church planting before I was really

00:55:19.900 ready to plant a church. You know, the church actually started off originally as a vineyard

00:55:25.860 church, which is egalitarian, as well as charismatic. And, you know, they don't really

00:55:31.200 have a position on soteriology. And so anyways, but that was my background. And then eventually

00:55:38.060 we became Acts 29, and I was kind of soft complementarian, you know, and then eventually,

00:55:43.340 you know, I was tired of doing theology a la carte, and so I wanted to be able to affirm a

00:55:48.260 confession of faith, and so it was somewhere in between the Acts 29 and, you know, in confessional,

00:55:53.520 more 1689 Baptist transition there in 2019. I was preaching through this, and a lot of people left

00:56:01.140 because I preached exactly what you said. You know, I said, in some sense, it could be, you know,

00:56:06.660 that like, you know, women will be saved through childbearing. I think John Piper says it like

00:56:11.540 this, that it doesn't say they'll be saved by childbearing, but they'll be saved through

00:56:16.360 childbearing. In the same way that, you know, a ship out at sea isn't saved by a storm. But if

00:56:24.220 the ship is strong and steady and continues, you know, straight ahead, keeping the eye on the

00:56:28.700 horizon, you know, then the ship would be saved through the storm. So it's not saved by the storm.

00:56:34.060 the storm is the very thing that's threatening it but it's going to be saved through that storm

00:56:38.320 and childbearing and i mean you know it i i understand his argument he's saying childbearing

00:56:43.740 you know even today but especially um in in times past a lot of women died in childbearing

00:56:50.920 you know childbearing was a very dangerous thing a lot of children would be lost in childbearing i

00:56:54.960 mean you read some of the puritans and it's like they had 10 kids and nine of them you know didn't

00:56:59.120 make it to adulthood, you know, and tragic stories and wives who died in childbearing and all those

00:57:04.120 kinds of things. And so, you know, Piper's saying, you know, a woman will be saved through childbearing

00:57:08.340 if she keeps her eyes on Christ. Here's a frightening thing, but God will preserve you

00:57:13.340 through it. And, you know, that was my prior position. I like that position because that

00:57:19.040 position didn't bother anybody. Nobody was upset by that. But as I started, you know, dealing with

00:57:24.140 the text more and more and thinking of the context, like, you know, if this was just some

00:57:27.960 random verse, you know, but it's coming on the heels of verse 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, you know

00:57:34.640 what I mean? Like where it's all about a woman should learn in quietness and full submission,

00:57:39.780 I do not permit it. And so it's all these things that a woman shouldn't do. And I think you 1.00

00:57:44.080 mentioned that in your book, Zach, and I thought it was really good, but it's not coincidental.

00:57:48.820 It's like, here are things that women can't do, but here's a really great thing that women can do,

00:57:54.880 and it's not some side peripheral thing. It is a vital thing, the very thing that a woman would

00:58:01.940 be saved by. It is an eternally weighty, full-orbed, massive thing. So women can't do this

00:58:11.680 thing. And we all kind of know this thing matters, preaching the word, leadership, headship. 1.00

00:58:18.400 But here's this other thing that women can't do that, but they can do this, and this other thing 0.60

00:58:24.020 really, really matters. So women not being saved through childbearing, but actually being saved

00:58:31.060 by childbearing, and then you have to give the preface and say, but no one is saved, man, woman,

00:58:36.140 child, no one's saved by our works. But it's the same kind of language as we see in the book of

00:58:40.820 James, that faith without works is dead. And so when being saved by childbearing, it's as an

00:58:49.360 effect as an evidence of faith. And so that's what I ended up preaching. And I slowed down

00:58:57.060 instead of just speeding through the text, I slowed down and I did 1 Timothy chapter 2, 9

00:59:01.440 through 15, four weeks in a row. So four parts, a whole month just on that, working through.

00:59:08.260 And verse 15 got a whole sermon, a 60-minute sermon. And it was a great church shrinking

00:59:15.160 strategy uh really really did a wonder so anyways i i agree with you wholeheartedly i look at it as

00:59:21.820 it's not through being saved through the the difficult storm of childbearing but by childbearing

00:59:26.720 and that's not to be you know a contradiction to being saved by grace alone through faith alone

00:59:31.120 christ alone but we're say you know women are saved by childbearing in the same way that all

00:59:35.140 of us um are saved by works in the sense that that that faith apart from works isn't real faith

00:59:41.460 it's a dead faith it's an evidence works right and so i get in this i get in this a little bit

00:59:45.940 in the book is that you know we're justified by faith alone but i i do think the reform position

00:59:52.180 is uh the biblical position is that genuine faith is is necessarily accompanied by good works it

01:00:00.700 produces good works that's you know what you're saying with james 2 right that's going to look a

01:00:05.220 little bit different for men and women uh obviously a lot of things should be the same

01:00:09.260 But we do have different duties that God has placed on us.

01:00:13.140 And so that means a man should, you know, lead his wife well.

01:00:20.420 He should be a godly father and godly man.

01:00:23.660 And a woman should be a godly woman and mother. 0.98

01:00:26.880 And so that includes childbearing.

01:00:30.240 And of course, what are we seeing people cast off today? 0.88

01:00:33.200 I mean, what is kind of ungodly femininity today, or we can just say ungodliness amongst women, is that they're casting off childbearing. 1.00

01:00:44.200 They don't want to have kids. 1.00

01:00:45.940 Right.

01:00:46.740 And Paul is giving a warning here, too.

01:00:49.700 You know, so that's a pretty serious thing.

01:00:51.760 I think I say in the book is women aren't, you know, it's not like they're going to be saved just because they have kids. 0.59

01:01:00.860 Obviously, they're saved by faith in Christ.

01:01:03.200 And that's necessary. 0.98

01:01:05.540 But if a woman rebels against God's design for her as a woman, meaning she actively rejects having kids, then that should concern her. 0.98

01:01:18.100 That's a sign that she may not have faith. 0.99

01:01:21.220 Absolutely.

01:01:22.280 Especially if it continues. 1.00

01:01:23.740 It's one thing in her 20s that she eventually grows up and repents. 0.96

01:01:29.480 But if a woman claims to be a follower of Jesus, but over the course of her entire life, 0.98

01:01:35.660 I mean, she goes to the grave childless, and not because she was barren, but deliberately 0.97

01:01:40.000 by choice. 0.99

01:01:43.020 Yeah, that's... 0.93

01:01:44.640 I mean, and just to make it fair, on the other side of the equation, if a man doesn't

01:01:52.980 do some of his chief callings to protect and to provide, like work, the Bible has a verse

01:01:58.420 about that too. 1.00

01:01:59.480 That he's denied the faith and worse than an unbeliever. 1.00

01:02:02.380 So it's really not a coincidence. 1.00

01:02:03.480 It really makes a lot of sense when you think, if a woman hates childbearing, she may not be saved.

01:02:10.360 1 Timothy 2, verse 15. 0.91

01:02:13.040 And then Titus says, and if a guy won't provide for the members of his family, especially his own household, his immediate family, then he's denied the faith and he's worse than an unbeliever. 0.89

01:02:25.380 He may not be saved.

01:02:26.200 So it's taking, too, those quintessential evidences of obedience, what obedience looks like in a man and what obedience looks like in a woman, and recognizing that obedience, it looks different given your station, whether you're a man, whether you're a woman, but whether it be womanly obedience or masculine obedience, in both instances, that's an evidence of the one thing that does save, which is faith.

01:02:54.140 And faith that has no evidence, especially the claim to have faith that has the absence of evidence, even aggression and aversion towards that evidence over the course of a lifetime, yeah, we should assume that that person is not in Christ.

01:03:14.440 yeah i agree if i could just add briefly here i think supporting what we're saying on on first

01:03:21.140 timothy 2 15 lest people say uh oh we're just pointing to some obscure verse uh chapter five

01:03:27.500 of the same letter first timothy 5 14 and paul says so i would have younger widows marry bear

01:03:34.040 children manage their households i think that's a different managing than what the husband's

01:03:39.000 supposed to do it's different great different greek word it's like proverbs 31 yeah yeah

01:03:44.580 absolutely um and give the adversary no occasion for slander so so paul is saying hey if a woman's

01:03:52.180 younger and her husband dies she should marry and and he's telling her and have kids right that's

01:03:57.760 part of the part of it and then um of course there's titus 2 um where where paul says the

01:04:04.420 The older women are to train the younger women, Titus 2.4, 0.93

01:04:09.060 to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled, pure, 0.99

01:04:12.840 working at home, kind and submissive to their own husbands,

01:04:16.420 that the word of God may not be reviled.

01:04:18.140 So those are kind of parallel passages in some ways.

01:04:20.900 But, yeah, you got that word working at home.

01:04:22.920 And I don't know how people try to get around some of these verses.

01:04:27.500 Right, keepers at home.

01:04:30.020 Yeah, and, you know, so working at home, kind and submissive to their own husbands,

01:04:34.140 that the word of God may not be reviled. I remember that hitting me like a ton of bricks,

01:04:38.740 you know, a few years back when I was like, here I am not wanting in my preaching to say that

01:04:44.500 Christian women should be submissive to their husbands and keepers at home. And the reason 1.00

01:04:49.920 why I'm wanting to pull those biblical, clearly biblical punches, the reason I want to pull those

01:04:54.940 punches is because I don't want the word of God to be reviled. But the word of God actually says

01:04:59.320 the exact opposite. So I'm trying to spare God's word the potential of getting attack

01:05:06.760 from feminists and egalitarians by saying what it actually says. And the irony, and I remember

01:05:14.320 being so convicted by this, but the irony is God's word actually says that when women actually live

01:05:21.780 according to his standard of actually submitting to their husbands, joyfully submitting to their 0.93

01:05:26.600 husbands and being happy to be keepers at home and forsaking, you know, out of the home careers

01:05:32.120 to predominantly focus on childbearing and rearing and all those kinds of things, that that's actually

01:05:37.440 the way that the Word of God will not be reviled. And am I either going to, am I going to trust

01:05:41.940 God's strategy for keeping His Word from being reviled or my strategy, you know? And that was

01:05:48.220 really, that was convicting, you know? And so, one other thing with Titus 2, I want to just ask you

01:05:54.240 about this, but older women, you know, likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanders

01:05:58.400 or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good. And so the way that I read that is they 0.99

01:06:06.240 are to teach the good. And what is the good? It's training. And so the good thing to teach

01:06:13.040 is to train young women, all these things. So for me, that was another switch where again,

01:06:18.880 And people hated me and left the church and those kinds of things.

01:06:22.240 But, you know, for a while, I realized we had certain women's ministries that really only existed.

01:06:31.200 They didn't exist because, oh, man, the content here is just so awesome.

01:06:34.920 Or, man, the women just really need this. 1.00

01:06:37.460 Or we're fulfilling some kind of biblical commandment that must be met. 0.94

01:06:40.700 These women's ministries, they only existed because we needed a context where women could teach. 0.97

01:06:47.020 because women wanted to teach and had some gifting. 1.00

01:06:51.020 And a lot of our women actually didn't want to teach, 1.00

01:06:53.360 but we wanted them to teach 1.00

01:06:54.880 because we just thought that they should 1.00

01:06:56.420 because we're looking at other women

01:06:58.120 in soft complementarian churches and they're teaching.

01:07:01.340 So we created a context because we were complementarian.

01:07:05.720 We weren't patriarchal yet, but we were complementarian.

01:07:08.120 So we wanted to create some kind of context 0.86

01:07:10.000 where women wouldn't be teaching men. 0.67

01:07:12.880 So we need a women-only context for women to teach.

01:07:15.200 But then the problem is that the content, and this was not the women's fault.

01:07:18.340 This was my fault before, you know, the Lord brought conviction in some of these areas. 0.68

01:07:22.740 But the content in these women's ministries where women are teaching other women is they're teaching doctrine of God. 0.99

01:07:30.280 They're teaching theology proper. 0.92

01:07:31.600 They're teaching soteriology.

01:07:33.120 They're teaching the sovereignty of God in all things, His providence.

01:07:35.940 You know, when the reality is it's like, but I teach that.

01:07:40.540 and I teach it to men and women on the Lord's Day by expositional preaching through whole books of

01:07:46.480 the Bible, text by text. The elders do that. The elders are going to teach theology of God,

01:07:51.520 you know, and when I really looked at Titus 2, I realized, yeah, older women should teach,

01:07:57.500 and I think that they should teach younger women. I think that's organic, one-on-one,

01:08:02.360 you know, small groups, but I think also there can be contexts of larger groups where an older

01:08:06.460 woman is teaching 20 or even 200 younger women at one time. But the question is, what are they

01:08:12.260 teaching? It's not just that an older woman gets to teach doctrine of God and theology proper, 0.97

01:08:17.980 but she's teaching younger women specifically how to love their husbands and children and be

01:08:24.340 self-controlled, pure, how to work at home, be kind, and submit to their husbands. Would you 0.97

01:08:30.100 agree with that? So I look at ties to not just that there is a context for women teaching, namely

01:08:34.860 older women teaching younger women, but that Titus 2 is actually also setting the curriculum,

01:08:39.480 as it were, for what those older women should be teaching. 0.54

01:08:43.420 Yeah, I think I agree with you. I don't think Titus 2 or really anywhere in the Bible 0.99

01:08:50.780 forbids women from teaching scripture and theology to other women. However, I would come back and say

01:08:58.820 the emphasis is on women training younger women in femininity, in godly womanhood. 0.72

01:09:13.100 So this is kind of like the issue with women working outside the home. 0.63

01:09:17.460 We got to be careful that we don't bind people's consciences with commands that God has not given or prohibitions he hasn't given. 0.95

01:09:27.460 However, we can still look at Scripture and say, well, here's the emphasis, right? 0.84

01:09:33.000 That God has designed women to be homeward-oriented, to direct their work towards the home and children. 0.98

01:09:43.480 And so I think a big problem in the church today is we have all of these Bible studies and women's Bible studies. 0.57

01:09:52.580 And again, I don't think there's a prohibition on women's Bible studies.

01:09:56.660 However, you know, it's great for women to have women's groups, men's groups, and they pray together, fellowship, all these things.

01:10:03.700 The primary teaching should come from the elders and the pastor, of course, the Sunday morning or if you meet evening, you know, Sunday teaching, preaching.

01:10:17.800 However, the church needs mentorship and older, I mean, you even have, it speaks of older men, but I just think this is something just hugely lacking in the church today is the older men training the younger men, but specifically here, the older women training the younger women.

01:10:41.920 I think part of the reason we have so much feminism in the church today is maybe our older women aren't following godly femininity.

01:10:50.040 I don't know. I'm sure that's the case in some corners. 0.99

01:10:53.700 But they're certainly not training the younger women to do so.

01:10:57.760 And this shouldn't just have to come from the pulpit.

01:11:00.740 But if the first time a young woman in your church is hearing about submitting to her husband and working at home because her own, you know, if her mother's a Christian or other older women, assuming she's been in the church for a while, if older women haven't taught her this stuff, then those older women are failing at this command, Titus 2.

01:11:25.620 And so I think this is part of the, this is just a problem in the church.

01:11:30.840 Of course, there's the cultural pressure, but the church needs to teach these things from the pulpit. 0.86

01:11:36.940 But the older women need to do their job in training the younger women in godly femininity. 0.90

01:11:43.200 Amen. I completely agree. 0.98

01:11:45.020 Well, hey, we're starting to run out of time.

01:11:46.680 Are there any final thoughts that you have for us, Zach?

01:11:48.620 Any extra things that we didn't get to that you want to get out there?

01:11:53.320 Well, I know the one thing we didn't talk about was 1 Corinthians 14.

01:11:56.980 Maybe we can save that for another day.

01:11:58.260 I do argue, I'll just say I do argue that it's a parallel passage to 1 Timothy 2.

01:12:04.440 There's actually a lot of similarities.

01:12:07.460 I've written on this topic some, obviously in the book.

01:12:13.060 I have a whole chapter on it.

01:12:14.600 I have some stuff online.

01:12:16.720 I actually wrote a journal article for Covenant Theological Seminary's journal called Presbyterian with an O.

01:12:25.320 And and yeah, so I argue my view in there kind of responding to this other article.

01:12:32.060 But I really do think it's a parallel passage with First Timothy, too.

01:12:36.220 And I think it helps strengthen the reading of both passages because egalitarians tend to try to dismiss it.

01:12:44.060 and uh most complementarians say that paul's only prohibiting the evaluation of prophecy and i just

01:12:51.560 think that's totally wrong that's a really novel position and um anyway so if people are interested

01:12:58.660 in that they can you know they can pick up the book great okay tell our listeners as we go ahead

01:13:03.500 and conclude where can they follow you what's the name of the book where can they get the book

01:13:07.460 yeah so it's it's masculine christianity uh you can get it on um i mean you can do a google search

01:13:14.500 for it uh different vendors uh amazon um if you want the audiobook there is the amazon audiobook

01:13:21.940 there's also canon plus so if you have the canon plus app it's on there i think they maybe even had

01:13:27.500 it for free was what i saw i you know i don't know if they're still doing that but um you could just

01:13:32.060 go listen to it they were promoting things cool um yeah so people you can find me on twitter uh

01:13:38.620 i have a website knowing scripture.com if people want to uh read some of my other stuff um you know

01:13:44.220 they can they can go there great all right zach thanks for coming on the show god bless brother

01:13:48.540 yeah thanks for having me god bless you too y'all can i be frank with you for just a second

01:13:53.980 right here at the end look some of you guys you're financially supporting this ministry

01:13:58.700 and from the bottom of my heart, I say thank you. I cannot thank you enough. However, some of you,

01:14:05.780 you just, you can't afford it. In fact, some of you, you shouldn't afford it. Let's be honest.

01:14:12.820 I mean, we're living in Joe Biden's ridiculous economy. Our nation and our totalitarian political 0.94

01:14:20.300 elites lost their minds over the last three years due to COVID. We have written checks that we

01:14:28.120 simply cannot cash. It doesn't matter if people change the definition of a recession. We are

01:14:34.360 living in a recession right now regardless. Some of you are struggling to afford a carton of eggs

01:14:41.620 at the grocery store. You cannot support financially this ministry at this time, nor should

01:14:48.140 you, but you could still help us tremendously. I am asking you, please, if you're willing to do so,

01:14:55.120 take one minute of your time. Leave us a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform,

01:15:02.140 iTunes, Spotify, whatever that might be. This is the way the system works. We want to be innocent

01:15:08.420 as doves but shrewd as vipers. We need to be strategic. You leave us a five-star review

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01:15:27.180 Help us get it out there.

01:15:28.880 Thanks for tuning in.

The NXR Podcast - February 21, 2023

THEOLOGY APPLIED - Are Women More Easily Deceived Than Men？｜ with Zach Garris

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript

The NXR Podcast - February 21, 2023

THEOLOGY APPLIED - Are Women More Easily Deceived Than Men？ ｜ with Zach Garris

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript

THEOLOGY APPLIED - Are Women More Easily Deceived Than Men？｜ with Zach Garris