The NXR Podcast - February 21, 2023


THEOLOGY APPLIED - Are Women More Easily Deceived Than Men？ ｜ with Zach Garris

Topics
Christiane Amanpour voting and household headship male headship prelapsarian male headship in Genesis 1-2 faith and childbearing in Christianity women's ministry and training
Hosted by
Joel Webbon Harrison Smith Antonio Griffith Dale Partridge Wewsley Todd Calvin Robinson
Guests
Zachary Garris
Mentioned
Adam Paul Zachary Garris Joel Webin Ron Swanson John Piper Canon Elizabeth Cady Stanton Charles Spurgeon Gloria Steinem Scott McKnight Joe Biden Twitterverse Messianic Audible Parks Denny James Esha
DAILY TRUTH - If You’re Not A Christian, The Devil Is Your Daddy DAILY TRUTH - How Mega-Churches Tyrannize Men

Episode Stats


Length

1 hour and 15 minutes

Words per minute

165.44

Word count

12,490

Sentence count

605

Harmful content

Misogyny

73

sentences flagged

Toxicity

6

sentences flagged

Hate speech

105

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode of Theology Applied, Pastor Joel Webin is joined by Zachary Garris, the author of Biblical Masculinity, to discuss male headship within the church and the patriarchy. Are women more easily deceived than men? Will Christian women be saved in any particular way through childbearing? This episode is sure to anger a feminist.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00 Alright, listen guys, I get it. Many of you are unable to financially support this ministry because you're spending your cash and your lives on raising young children in the fear and admonition of the Lord. Praise God for you and that endeavor.
00:00:13 However, algorithms are a thing.
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00:00:30 review.
00:00:31 Also, perhaps even more effective than that, you can share our podcast with a friend.
00:00:36 We hope you'll take the time to do so.
00:00:38 Thank you so much.
00:00:39 God bless. 0.95
00:00:40 For Adam was formed first, then Eve, and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived 0.95
00:00:48 and became a transgressor. Yet she will be saved through childbearing if they continue in faith
00:00:56 and love and holiness with self-control. In this episode of Theology Applied, I'm privileged to be
00:01:04 joined by Zachary Garris, who is the author of Biblical Masculinity. Yes, we are discussing
00:01:11 biblical patriarchy. We are discussing male headship. We're dealing with some of the most
00:01:17 difficult and controversial questions in the Bible. Are women more easily deceived than men?
00:01:25 Will Christian women be saved in any particular way through childbearing? This episode is a bit
00:01:33 spicy. It's sure to anger a feminist, so you do us a favor and be sure to share it with one. 1.00
00:01:39 Let's tune in now. Applying God's Word to every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied. 1.00
00:01:50 All right, welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied. I am your host, Pastor Joel
00:01:54 Webin with Right Response Ministries, and in this episode, I'm privileged to welcome onto the show
00:02:00 for the first time, Zach Garris.
00:02:02 Zach, thanks for joining us.
00:02:04 Thanks for having me, Joel.
00:02:06 Absolutely.
00:02:06 So tell our listeners,
00:02:07 what is the book that you recently wrote?
00:02:09 You published with Canon.
00:02:10 I just listened to the Audible version
00:02:12 that's on the Canon Plus app.
00:02:13 What's the name of it and why'd you write it?
00:02:16 Well, the book is Masculine Christianity.
00:02:18 It's been out for a little bit,
00:02:19 but it just came out on audiobook
00:02:22 and yeah, Canon has it on the Canon Plus app.
00:02:27 Yeah, the reason I wrote it is I,
00:02:29 I had read a lot of the works out there on feminism, especially egalitarianism within the church, and I think I was just dissatisfied with a lot of the literature.
00:02:44 I mean, there's some good books that I would recommend, but I basically tried to write a book that I thought filled the gap and would be a good resource for Christians, pastors, and laymen alike.
00:02:59 And covering not only feminism, but really digging into the scripture texts on relevant
00:03:05 subjects. 1.00
00:03:07 Yep.
00:03:08 Yeah, it's needed.
00:03:10 Well, I just, you know, just about finished listening to the book.
00:03:13 I told you offline before we started recording that I'm listening to it on the Canon Plus
00:03:16 app, and it's been really edifying and really helpful.
00:03:19 And one of the things that, you know, you draw out in the book is, well, I can maybe
00:03:25 say it like this.
00:03:25 So there's a meme that I've seen floating around in the Twitterverse, you know, that
00:03:30 has a picture of Ron Swanson from Parks and Recreation.
00:03:33 And there's a scene in that show where he says, I think he's sitting at like a Denny's
00:03:37 or something like that, or an IHOP, and he's ordering his breakfast.
00:03:41 And he says, bring me all of your eggs.
00:03:43 And the server says, very good.
00:03:44 You know, it starts to walk away and he says, wait, wait, wait.
00:03:46 All right.
00:03:47 Now, I think he said, you heard me say, bring me a lot of eggs.
00:03:51 But what I said is bring me all of your eggs. 1.00
00:03:54 And so the meme is a picture of Ron Swanson and he says, feminism is bad. And he says, now, wait,
00:04:00 wait, wait. I think what you heard is that second and third wave feminism is bad. But what I said is 1.00
00:04:06 feminism is bad. All of it, all of it. And so anyway, so all that being said, that's one of 1.00
00:04:13 the things that you cover in the book that I found insightful. Tell our listeners a little bit about
00:04:18 first wave feminism, how it relates to second wave and third wave and how those egalitarian
00:04:24 you know just unbiblical roots were were in this movement from the very beginning
00:04:30 yeah well it's uh it's common for christians especially to say uh that you know second
00:04:39 second wave feminism 1960s and 70s uh was was a problem and that that's really the source of
00:04:48 feminism today in the church. But I think that's mistaken. And I think first wave feminism,
00:04:57 which began in the mid 1800s, really was the basis for second wave feminism. I don't think
00:05:05 you would have had second wave feminism without the first. There's a connection there built off 1.00
00:05:11 of it. And I know a lot of people say, well, how can you have a problem with first wave feminism? 1.00
00:05:15 It's just, you know, giving women the right to vote and property rights and all these things. 0.79
00:05:20 And I think the problem with it was that at its root, first wave feminism was rebellion against male headship. 0.58
00:05:33 Yeah. And splitting the household. 1.00
00:05:37 Yeah. I mean, that's the thing is, you know, when you think about a woman having the right to vote, 0.99
00:05:43 That in and of itself doesn't seem like a problem or a bad thing, but it's the fact that men represented their families, their wives, in the voting booth. 0.74
00:05:55 And so that was taken away with women's suffrage.
00:06:01 And so now you have it where women can and often do vote against their husbands.
00:06:06 And I think that's, of course, a bad thing.
00:06:10 I mean, if you're voting the same way, you could say you're having, you know, two votes for the same candidate.
00:06:15 But so so it's just a it's a really a philosophical problem in that it's it's undercutting male headship in the home.
00:06:22 And when you read the advocates of first wave feminism, Elizabeth Cady Stanton being, you know, one of the most prominent, but also the most radical.
00:06:34 and you read her words i mean she's saying we want uh not just the right to vote but we want
00:06:43 something basically uh kin to no-fault divorce right uh and that's that's long before you know
00:06:53 it's like 100 years before it actually came about in the united states um she's saying we want equal
00:06:58 rights in the church i mean you know i have i include some quotes in the book on this and so 0.93
00:07:04 um yeah this this was not just a limited movement about voting first wave feminism was very much
00:07:11 wrapped up with really a a revolution a rebellion against god's design for men and women in
00:07:20 particularly the household yeah definitely um you know today i you know so i've said a couple
00:07:26 times online that I would be for repealing the 19th Amendment. But I think it's worth clarifying
00:07:34 my position. My wife votes, and she votes because the household vote has been, I believe, a sinful
00:07:42 decision, namely the 19th Amendment. The household vote has been split. It's been divided.
00:07:48 And so my wife, she votes with me, alongside me, under my headship, so that we get a full household
00:07:55 vote because really what women's suffrage did is it took my vote and cut it in half and so i in the
00:08:01 name of you know one of the things that like with young guys that i'm always trying to you know to
00:08:06 keep in check is um idealism you know just some young guys they're ideologues right so they they
00:08:12 hear about something like patriarchy and they read one you know article on it and yeah i'm 0.95
00:08:17 patriarchal you know and they and but they um they're just they're losers like and i mean that 0.97
00:08:23 in the functional sense. They can't win. They're not successful, right? I'm talking about single 0.98
00:08:28 guys. They can't even get married or have kids. They're fluctuating in and out of different 0.91
00:08:34 careers. And so they're like, hey, it's not glorifying to God for women to vote. And I'm 1.00
00:08:40 saying, hey, I think we should repeal the 19th Amendment. That's going to take time to get there. 0.69
00:08:45 That's the right decision. But what do Christian women do in the meantime? Well, I think Christian 1.00
00:08:49 married women should uh should supplement their husband so that they get a full household vote 0.98
00:08:53 they should submit to their husband his leadership and vote alongside him so all that being said for
00:08:58 anybody who's listening saying you don't think so you're saying that christian women shouldn't vote
00:09:02 no i'm saying christian women should vote alongside with their husbands if they're single they should
00:09:06 vote alongside with their pastors if they are their their fathers and if they have an estranged
00:09:12 relationship with their father their father's an unbeliever and they're not married then they should
00:09:16 seek counsel from their elders, and their elders, if they're solid biblical men, should be willing
00:09:20 to apply the scripture even to the realm of politics and give counsel about which principles
00:09:26 to vote. You can do that without endorsing a candidate, which even that I'd be fine with,
00:09:30 but you don't have to say a specific guy. You can just say, okay, well, theft is sin. Civil
00:09:35 theft is still sin, so socialism is out. It's not that hard, and real quick, you can figure out what
00:09:41 to do. So anyways, I'm pro-Christian women voting in the meantime, because I want to win the war. 0.97
00:09:48 I don't want to be an ideologue who's just constantly losing everything. But I do think 0.75
00:09:53 that in theory, and I think you do too from reading your book, that that was a sinful decision
00:09:57 that was usurping a husband's authority. And it was just against the main principle that we've
00:10:03 always believed in our nation, which is it's not just a raw democracy, it's a representative
00:10:08 government. We have a representative republic, a constitutional republic. And so the idea that
00:10:14 we would have legislators who represent us, that's the same principle as having a husband
00:10:19 or a father that represents wives and daughters and sons. The smallest unit in our nation is not
00:10:29 supposed to be individuals. It should be households. Would you agree with that, Zach? 0.58
00:10:34 anything you would add to that yeah absolutely i think that's um that's right is god deals with
00:10:42 households and um you know you you see you see this in scripture he doesn't just just deal with
00:10:49 individuals obviously we will be judged before him as individuals right um but the the concept
00:10:56 of the household is all throughout the bible um and you see male headship uh of course in the new
00:11:02 Testament, Ephesians 5, Colossians 3, other passages. Also in the Old Covenant, comes up
00:11:10 some in the Book of Numbers, chapter 5 and chapter 30 there. And I also argue the creation account,
00:11:16 of course. So that's how God deals with people. And he designed male headship for
00:11:24 the good of everyone, men and women and children. And so I think that has to have some
00:11:30 application to the civil sphere. And it used to, I mean, it used to be treated that way. I mean,
00:11:40 male headship was recognized. I think, yeah, when you criticize first wave feminism or just
00:11:49 universal suffrage in general, you know, it's a very unpopular thing to say, but very politically
00:11:56 incorrect, but, you know, I really just have one chapter, the first chapter in the book
00:12:01 on that. And part of my goal there was to expose people to the truth about first wave feminism.
00:12:10 And I get, I give a lot of quotes from some of these leaders so that you can just read it
00:12:15 yourself. Um, yeah, I'm, I'm with you. I'm not trying to say we should, uh, or that we're even
00:12:22 a position right now to right to be overly idealistic yeah but we shouldn't be overly
00:12:27 overly idealistic as a pastor i'm not saying to women in my church hey you shouldn't vote i'm
00:12:32 saying you should vote righteously and you should vote um in in the spirit of voting righteously
00:12:37 you should be voting in line with your husbands but absolutely yeah we can't evangelicals can't
00:12:42 afford to uh to cut our vote in half um in in an ideologue principle uh we're evangelicals are
00:12:49 already too good at losing. We don't need any help at losing worse. But we're speaking in
00:12:55 principle of what would be right. And so we're saying that the national... So if there was
00:12:59 something... For instance, if I had an opportunity to vote to repeal the 19th Amendment, here's the
00:13:05 irony. I and my wife would vote for that. She would. And not just because I told her to, but 0.68
00:13:11 she shares that conviction because I've washed her in the word. I've discipled her. I've been
00:13:16 leading her. She trusts me. She trusts the scripture. So we would both, me and my wife
00:13:21 would be voting to repeal the 19th amendment until it's repealed though. She's going to be 0.89
00:13:26 voting on every other issue alongside me as I seek to lead us in following the scripture and
00:13:33 applying the whole counsel of God to the whole human life. So could you do this for us just so
00:13:38 some of our listeners and even me, it's always a helpful refresher. What are some of the key
00:13:43 distinctions between first wave, second wave, third wave, and I guess now fourth wave transing
00:13:50 kids, whatever we're on now, but particularly first, second, and third wave feminism, what are
00:13:56 the key distinctions between, what are the differences? Well, first wave feminism was 1.00
00:14:03 primarily concerned with legal equality, and the emphasis was on voting. I mean, there were some 0.68
00:14:11 other issues that came up. But that was the focus, though there were other things at play
00:14:17 that I mentioned. That was the mid-1800s, and the 19th Amendment, I think it went into
00:14:27 effect in 1920, if I'm not mistaken. And so it's another 40 plus years when you have
00:14:38 second wave feminism, 1960s and 70s. And that was really more of a social movement. And I mean, 0.99
00:14:49 you had some legal aspects. I mean, you had the push for the Equal Rights Amendment,
00:14:56 which actually failed, but they ended up implementing all of this in the courts anyway. 0.99
00:15:01 and uh that had to do with i mean even getting rid of well they ended up getting rid of women's
00:15:10 colleges uh as far as the funding state funding because that's not equal i mean so 1.00
00:15:15 um i mean there's a lot of details there but most people know second wave feminism for 0.98
00:15:21 the social aspect it's tied with sexual liberation and the sexual revolution and uh you know so you 0.79
00:15:29 have Gloria Steinem and some of those other leaders. So this is like the sixties, right?
00:15:34 Yeah. Yeah. And so the way I really characterize that is they were pushing for men, uh, or sorry,
00:15:39 women to leave the home. So, and especially to take on careers like men outside the home. So
00:15:48 that's how I like to characterize that is, uh, it's obviously much more radical than first wave 1.00
00:15:54 feminism, but I would argue the seeds of it were there before. Um, and so that's really what we're 1.00
00:16:00 living with today is, is women having the mindset, um, that what they're not valuable, uh, they're 1.00
00:16:08 not doing something productive in society unless they're out working a job, you know, 40 hours a 1.00
00:16:14 week. And that's, uh, I mean, that's contrary to scripture, of course. Um, and, and I argue the
00:16:22 Bible doesn't prohibit women from working outside the home, but there is an emphasis on duties that 0.99
00:16:28 revolve around the home. And so that if they're doing those, having, you know, they're married, 0.98
00:16:34 having children, raising their children, that doesn't really leave a lot of time or energy
00:16:39 to work much outside the home. And I realize this gets into also controversial territory, but
00:16:46 I think it's important that we understand the background of feminism that has led to this
00:16:52 situation. And of course you mentioned third wave feminism. Yeah. I don't even know what
00:16:57 they always call it today, but it, it, it keeps, um, getting even more radical. It's,
00:17:03 it's tied with homosexuality and, uh, you know, it's kind of, I guess you could say the seeds
00:17:08 were there in second wave feminism and that if, uh, uh, a woman doesn't need a man or if she can
00:17:14 be this independent woman, then if you're really consistent with that, then she's not even going
00:17:21 need a man at all and then she's maybe a lesbian or something like that so um that's yeah that's
00:17:28 where we are now dealing with transgenderism and all that stuff right and i think a lot of you know 0.91
00:17:32 the homosexuality um all the lgbt jihad craziness has come out of um the the sameness aspect that 0.94
00:17:40 egalitarianism it's not just equality but it's it's androgyny it's it's sameness and so like you 1.00
00:17:46 you know, like the, you know, the push for the pill, you know, the hormonal birth control pill,
00:17:53 which has abortive risk involved in it. And Christians need to be aware of those kinds of
00:17:58 things. But, you know, the push for that was basically if women can't have control, if they 1.00
00:18:05 don't have complete control over their reproductive process and whether or not they're pregnant and
00:18:12 these kinds of things, then they're not equal to men because they're not the same as men, right? 0.90
00:18:17 So to be the same as a man, I have to, you know, a man can't get pregnant. A man's never, his career 0.90
00:18:22 is never interrupted for nine months with a pregnancy, you know? And so we'll never really 0.74
00:18:27 be equal to men unless we're exactly the same as men. And to be exactly the same as men,
00:18:32 that involves everything from, you know, short haircuts and wearing, you know, I mean, you even 0.72
00:18:37 see like the dress changes with women. We're not wearing dresses, we're wearing business suits, 0.66
00:18:41 You know, and so the way we look, the way we dress, all the way down to abortion and the fact that we kill our children, you know, all coming out of this egalitarian, you know, equality.
00:18:54 But it's not just equality, it's sameness.
00:18:56 And that's one of the things you did really well, I think, in the book is just drawing the distinction between there's a distinction between equality of value versus sameness in terms of function and role and hierarchical authority.
00:19:10 Could you talk a little bit about that?
00:19:13 Yeah, I think that's right on what you said regarding equality.
00:19:20 I mean, that's obviously the root word there with egalitarianism is, you know, this really it's a philosophy, a worldview that men and women are the same or as similar as possible. 0.77
00:19:39 Obviously, they have different sexual organs.
00:19:45 Of course, that's what they've sought to minimize.
00:19:49 So the pill does that, right? 1.00
00:19:52 The birth control pill played a huge role in second wave feminism, as has abortion, right? 1.00
00:19:59 So if a woman still gets pregnant and she doesn't want a baby, then she seeks to kill it. 1.00
00:20:04 Of course, we're still living with those effects today. 0.91
00:20:07 So this stuff's all with us.
00:20:08 Um, uh, but yeah, so, so one thing I, I try to argue is in the book is men and women are both
00:20:18 made in the image of God. They're, they're two different types of humans. Uh, they both reflect
00:20:24 God's glory. Um, and they are both equal and worth and value. And, um, they are, uh, I guess
00:20:35 we could say near equals and spiritually, of course, we're spiritual equals. I mean, that's
00:20:41 what the egalitarians always like to go to Galatians three, uh, 20 and 29. It does teach
00:20:48 that men and women are, um, yeah, co-heirs in Christ, spiritual equals, but that does not do
00:20:56 away with, uh, you know, sexual distinctions in this life, um, that God has, he's designed us
00:21:03 differently but there's different duties and uh i even argue you know different rank that's right
00:21:09 things um male headship and um so yeah these things have been rejected by by modern feminism
00:21:17 yeah it's it's funny you know one of the things you covered in the book and i've i've done this
00:21:21 in some of my preaching on biblical patriarchy and trying to you know to raise up a defense
00:21:27 against egalitarianism. But Ephesians, you know, thinking of Ephesians 5, you know, husbands are
00:21:33 called to love their wives as Christ loved the church, and wife is called to submit to her
00:21:38 husband as the church submits to Christ. And the egalitarians, you know, are always quick to say, 0.53
00:21:43 well, let's back up, let's back up. You know, first we see, you know, mutual submission to
00:21:47 one another under Christ. And it's funny because, you know, I mean, we have chapters and verses
00:21:52 that are, I'm glad for the numbers in our Bible, you know, breaking it up into chapters and verses,
00:21:57 it makes it incredibly helpful. And I think, you know, the scholars involved with those kinds of
00:22:02 decisions did a fairly good job. There's some points where I'm like, ah, I wish it just kept
00:22:06 going and you didn't break it up right there. But all that being said, it's very clear that that's
00:22:11 the headline. That's the overarching banner is there's going to be this mutual submission to
00:22:16 one another under Christ. And it's not mutual submission, husband and wife. It's just talking
00:22:20 about people, mutually Christians, brothers and sisters in a much larger dynamic than just a
00:22:25 singular household in a marriage between one man and one woman it's all of you believers in varying
00:22:31 capacities are going to be submitting to one another deference towards one another in your
00:22:35 ultimate as a reflection of your ultimate submission to christ and then he the way it
00:22:39 should be read is and now let me give you not one but a few case studies examples of the principle
00:22:45 and so this is what it looks like in marriage um a husband is loving and you know loving his wife
00:22:49 is christ of the church and and the wife is submitting to her husband but that what's funny
00:22:54 for the egalitarian is I've, and I've done this in my counseling before with a few individuals
00:22:58 in pastoral counseling. Um, but I've said, you know, I've had a couple unruly wives from time
00:23:03 to time, you know, who like, Oh, I don't know. I don't agree with, you know, submitting to my
00:23:08 husband. I don't think that's what the Bible is saying. And they'll, and they'll point to that
00:23:11 verse in Ephesians and say, it's mutual submission. Um, and I'll say, yeah, it's mutual submission,
00:23:16 but then it's wives submit to husbands. And I, um, I said that principle that you're using 0.83
00:23:21 to override the wife submitting to the husband 0.63
00:23:24 and just say, well, it's just mutual submission.
00:23:26 You have to do that with all the case studies.
00:23:28 So you have to do that with slave and master.
00:23:30 And in our society,
00:23:31 you'd have to do that with employer and employee.
00:23:34 So the employee can just go in there to his boss
00:23:36 and he can be three hours late.
00:23:39 And if the boss tries to correct him,
00:23:40 he says, who are you?
00:23:41 You're not in charge. 1.00
00:23:42 But more than that, you feminist mom, 1.00
00:23:45 egalitarian mom arguing this point, 1.00
00:23:47 I want to see you submitting to your kids. 1.00
00:23:50 I want to see it.
00:23:50 I want to see that mutual, because that's the other example.
00:23:53 The case study is husband and wife, and then it's, you know, master-slave dynamic, but
00:23:57 then it's also parent and child.
00:24:00 Children, obey your parents.
00:24:02 But if we say, well, my children are Christian, praise God, you know, they've made a credible
00:24:06 profession of faith, they're members in the local church.
00:24:08 This is not just my son or my daughter.
00:24:10 This is my, in the eternal sense, my brother in Christ, my sister in Christ, and they're
00:24:16 nine.
00:24:16 and what that means is that um that we ultimately have to have a democratic vote every time we're
00:24:23 trying to make a decision i i don't really have any more authority in the home than my child does
00:24:27 sometimes you know i i have a bad attitude my my nine-year-old sends me to my room and i just have
00:24:32 to go in there and you know what i mean like that's insane that's insane how so how do people
00:24:37 read the bible like that i don't i don't get it what well i i yeah i i don't understand it either
00:24:44 because, you know, it's funny.
00:24:47 They make these arguments from Ephesians 5 with one verse.
00:24:52 I think it's verse 19.
00:24:55 Right, that's right.
00:24:56 Yeah, I think so.
00:24:56 Around there, 20, mutual submission, submitting to one another.
00:25:01 But they never make these arguments, or I don't think they can, 0.51
00:25:05 from Colossians 3, which also commands wives to submit to their husbands.
00:25:10 and then it says husbands don't be harsh with your wives um there's nothing in there about
00:25:16 mutual submission first peter three right i mean first peter three right you have sarah calling uh
00:25:22 abraham lord and um and you are her daughters if you yeah if you act like her so right there's
00:25:31 really no way around it and then of course the old testament um i mean i i know the egalitarians
00:25:36 argue for, um, equality, uh, like no hierarchy, no, no authority in, um, the creation story.
00:25:45 But, uh, uh, I think that, I think they're wrong there, of course. Um, and I, I have a couple
00:25:52 chapters on that, but, but also the book of numbers, uh, I mentioned this earlier, numbers
00:25:56 five speaks of a, um, um, you know, it's that weird passage about the, uh, husband suspects
00:26:03 his wife of adultery and uh there's the the she drinks the bitter water well i mentioned that
00:26:08 because twice in there it's it's or maybe three times it speaks of her being uh under her husband
00:26:14 which every translation i've looked at says under the authority of her husband that's that's what's
00:26:19 what it's getting at and then you have the um vows in numbers chapter 30 where a father can
00:26:27 um annul his daughter's vow if she's in his household he hears it and the husband can do
00:26:34 the same for his wife and but it doesn't say the wife can do that for the husband
00:26:40 right um so you have this all throughout the bible uh that that the husband is the head of
00:26:46 his household and yet the egalitarians are going to point to one verse in ephesians 5
00:26:52 they think somehow undermines everything else Paul says right after it but so as
00:26:57 far as how are they how are they doing this well how are they reading the Bible
00:27:02 this way well they're reading the Bible very poorly and they're forcing their
00:27:09 philosophy their preconceived egalitarian philosophy on the text
00:27:15 they're not doing exegesis I mean I know we all come to the Bible with presuppositions
00:27:21 and beliefs we recognize that but um they're not giving this a fair uh shot they're not actually
00:27:30 trying to see what does the bible command me as a christian to do they're coming in assuming it
00:27:37 could not possibly teach hierarchy and male headship um well some of them do think it it
00:27:46 teaches that and then they reject it but you know right now we're going in a different direction so
00:27:50 Right. Give us a couple. So you said, you know, you believe, and I agree, but you believe that
00:27:57 male headship, that it predated the fall. It's a prelapsarian reality that before sin entered the
00:28:06 world, Adam and Eve, there were only two people. We didn't get very far before, you know, the
00:28:10 covenant works was broken. But for that brief moment, as bliss as it may have been with only
00:28:15 two people, there was a hierarchy within those two people. There was male headship that Adam
00:28:19 had authority over his wife.
00:28:22 So give us, before Genesis 3, give us some,
00:28:25 well, I mean, you can use Genesis 3,
00:28:27 but before sin and the curse, give us some indicators.
00:28:30 What would you use as your biblical support
00:28:34 for saying male headship was a thing
00:28:36 before sin entered the world?
00:28:39 Yeah, so there is Genesis 3.16,
00:28:41 which I think is actually somewhat of a difficult verse,
00:28:45 but it deals with this to some extent but as far as is that your desire should be for your husband
00:28:55 but he will yeah yeah yeah you're yeah so i i kind of have a different take on it though i think it's
00:29:00 i think it's uh basically saying that there's going to be a abuse of a male authority as a
00:29:09 result of the fall so you would see it as a curse on both sides right that your desire is is contrary
00:29:14 to your husband. You're going to have a desire to rule over your husband. I'm going to Genesis 4
00:29:21 with Cain, because it's the same word, and you did a great job with that in your book. 0.98
00:29:28 So the wife, the curse on her end is she's going to want to rule over her husband. It's not just 0.61
00:29:32 like romantic, erotic desire. Your desire, your sweet romantic desire is going to be for your
00:29:37 husband, but that mean old bully is going to dominate you. No, you're going to have a desire
00:29:43 of wanting to master, be master of your husband, but he who is master over you will rule in a
00:29:50 unrighteous, because the biblical prescription to men is not that we shouldn't rule, it's that we
00:29:56 should rule righteously. So he's going to, at times, be totalitarian and rule unrighteously,
00:30:01 be harsh, domineering. But you also, there's going to be something in you and animosity
00:30:08 even towards righteous male headship? Do you see it on both sides, the curse?
00:30:15 Well, I think I argue in the book that that's certainly one option. I conclude in that section
00:30:24 that there's actually some linguistic study suggesting that the word desire there should
00:30:30 be translated devotion. And so I think if I recall correctly, I argue that it essentially
00:30:37 means even though your devotion is to your husband, he's going to abuse authority over
00:30:42 you.
00:30:42 Okay.
00:30:43 So I, because it's in the, it's in the context of the judgment on the woman.
00:30:48 But, but what you're saying is also a possibility.
00:30:51 I, I pretty much.
00:30:52 I just think of it in terms of the Genesis four, like a sins, does it desires to have
00:30:57 you, right? 0.66
00:30:57 Sin is like, yeah, yeah.
00:30:58 Like a lion crouching at your door.
00:31:00 It desires to have you, you know, and I guess it could be used in two different ways there.
00:31:05 But to me, it doesn't read as clearly as sin is devoted to you.
00:31:12 But it seems like sin wants to get you.
00:31:14 It wants to pounce and to dominate.
00:31:17 Yeah, I think that's definitely the meaning in Genesis 4.
00:31:20 Genesis 4.
00:31:22 You just don't think it's a one-to-one ratio.
00:31:23 I get it.
00:31:24 Yeah, yeah.
00:31:25 But anyway, I mean, I basically say, look, this is a tough passage.
00:31:29 I try to work my way through it and come to a conclusion there.
00:31:32 And then I say, regardless, though, this stuff, you know, on both ends is certainly a part of the fall, right?
00:31:40 I mean, we definitely have what you're saying, whether it's rooted in Genesis 3, 16 or not. 0.78
00:31:44 It's surely the case that a man is prone to abuse authority and a woman is prone to or inclined to usurp authority. 0.97
00:31:55 I mean, we see that play out in the world. 1.00
00:31:57 It's not a question about that.
00:32:00 But you want me to go back to...
00:32:02 Yeah, so give us some other indicators because I'm just, you know, playing the devil's advocate for a moment.
00:32:06 I can hear the contrarian saying, well, I read Genesis 3.16 and I like, oh, Zach, you actually just helped my egalitarian argument out by saying devotion.
00:32:16 You know, Joel was way more patriarchal, you know, but like, so the sweet woman is simply devoted to her husband, just wants to love him and to serve him.
00:32:24 And the curse is that she's going to be devoted to someone who is not mutually devoted to her.
00:32:29 She's going to be devoted and submitting and serving someone,
00:32:31 but he's not going to serve her.
00:32:32 He's instead going to rule.
00:32:34 And you're going to say, well, that's dominate.
00:32:36 It's unrighteous rule.
00:32:39 It's taking rule too far.
00:32:41 And they're going to say, no, the text just says rule.
00:32:43 Rule is bad, Zach.
00:32:45 Rule is bad.
00:32:46 So thanks, Zach.
00:32:47 You just helped me out with Genesis 3.16.
00:32:49 So my point is playing the devil's advocate, steel manning.
00:32:53 It's hard to steel man such a bad position as egalitarianism.
00:32:56 But if we can, what are some, you know, before Genesis 3.16, some other indicators of male headship before sin entered?
00:33:04 And I'll just say to preface this, this is important because, like you said, the egalitarian will say that male headship is introduced in Genesis 3.16.
00:33:16 And therefore, in Christ, it's being overcome, right?
00:33:20 We're overcoming the fall in Christ.
00:33:22 And so we should be getting back to near equality.
00:33:25 Of course, that doesn't make sense when you take into account the New Testament. 0.98
00:33:30 You'd have to go beyond the New Testament instructions for women to submit. 0.99
00:33:35 Well, and that's what they would say, though. 0.88
00:33:36 They'd say, well, the New Testament doesn't give direct instructions, explicit instructions to liberate, emancipate slaves.
00:33:44 But the writings of Paul eventually would lead to that outcome and the abolition of slavery, which I tend to agree with.
00:33:50 And so then they would make that similar argument saying, so yeah, sure, the New Testament tells slaves to submit to their masters and tells wives to submit to their husbands, but the underpinnings is that throughout Christendom, as things unfold and as the gospel drives deeper into individual hearts and into society, eventually patriarchy would be a dirty relic of the past.
00:34:12 yeah it's this trajectory uh hermeneutic um of course just to strengthen the argument here
00:34:20 we're going to get to genesis in a second is uh the new testament is uh you know when you
00:34:27 i know you uh i think you want to get into first timothy 2 and that'd be great both of those appeal
00:34:32 to the law or you know how to be informed first so this stuff's always going to the creation
00:34:38 so that's why this is just that important okay so in my book i think i give 10 um arguments for
00:34:49 uh male headship in genesis 1 and 2 wow now i wouldn't i can't name them all off the top of my
00:34:55 head right now i'll try to think of you didn't memorize your own book so somehow i uh i took
00:35:02 you know some of the arguments you see with like wayne grudem and some other guys and i i just
00:35:08 i had some of my own and i i got to a total of 10 okay i i think um i'll list off a couple of
00:35:15 them here um so you you do have adam being formed first which that's that's what uh paul gets into
00:35:23 in first in the two so i think that that matters and then you know the text says that um eve was
00:35:31 created as a helper for him now egalitarians are quick to point out well help you know god is
00:35:38 called a helper so it doesn't the advocate you know it it must be equal but you know obviously
00:35:43 those are different um you're referring to different beings i mean i think that's one
00:35:47 thing i i'd say in the book is uh obviously god is god and he's not submitting uh you know
00:35:54 uh to adam or beneath man in rank right um but we're talking about a created being
00:36:02 and a particularly a being created for Adam.
00:36:08 And so she is a helper to him.
00:36:11 I mean, Paul, of course, reasons this way in 1 Corinthians 11,
00:36:14 for woman was made for man, not man for woman. 0.97
00:36:18 Right.
00:36:18 I think it's verse 7 or 8, I can't remember.
00:36:21 Right, yeah, from man and for man, yeah.
00:36:24 Yeah, yeah.
00:36:25 So, I mean, in this way, I'm just reasoning like the Apostle Paul.
00:36:29 Right.
00:36:30 Um, so you have that, you have Adam naming the animals, uh, which I think is, you know,
00:36:36 he's exercising authority on some, some capacity.
00:36:39 He names Eve, uh, right.
00:36:42 Uh, he says she'll be named, uh, uh, uh, Esha, the woman.
00:36:46 And then, and then he actually names her after the fall.
00:36:48 He names her, uh, Eve life, life giving being, um, is, is it, can you translate it like a
00:36:56 mother of all the living or?
00:36:58 Yeah.
00:36:58 Yeah, I think that's, I think the ESV even footnotes it as that.
00:37:04 So, okay, so you have that.
00:37:08 You have the fact that Adam was supposed to instruct his wife with the command not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
00:37:19 Because the command is given by God to Adam when Eve has not yet been made.
00:37:24 yeah we have there's no evidence that eve was uh given this command directly from god gotcha
00:37:30 it seems that adam was uh to instruct her so he in that sense he's her teacher right um
00:37:37 god goes to adam first well now i'm getting to genesis 3 but uh but this is still sins yeah
00:37:44 yeah he goes to adam first and so i think that's that's pretty important adam where are you
00:37:50 Of course, he blames his wife.
00:37:54 Right.
00:37:56 He blames God, really.
00:37:59 Yeah, right.
00:38:00 The helper that you gave me wasn't much help.
00:38:04 Yeah.
00:38:05 We could definitely go to Romans 5.
00:38:08 Humans are born in sin, were held accountable by Adam's federal headship.
00:38:15 Adams, not Eve's.
00:38:17 i mean the text doesn't talk about eve um right you know it's because adam sinned and specifically
00:38:24 says by one man's sin not to absolutely absolutely and so uh you know jesus is the second and and
00:38:34 greater adam um and so you have you have that there uh so that's at least a few that's great
00:38:41 that's that's really helpful i think when you you know because egalitarians will argue you know
00:38:46 respond to each of these but when you have the cumulative case it's really hard to say that
00:38:52 there's no male headship in in the um in the garden right yeah no i think you're right and
00:38:58 especially when you have apostolic writings you know afterwards in the new testament pulling on
00:39:06 the creation you know the created order uh to make an argument for why this this um hierarchical
00:39:13 you know, pattern is going to exist in all places in all times. Like, Paul doesn't say,
00:39:18 well, there's this particular issue going on in Corinth of temple prostitution, which
00:39:22 I've, from what I've read on that, there's not enough evidence to even say that that was actually
00:39:28 even a thing, you know. But let's just, you know, let's just, you know, go with it for a second,
00:39:33 say there was a unique, you know, element of temple prostitution that was going on in Corinth.
00:39:38 But Paul said that's not his argument. He doesn't say, well, because Corinth in this place in this
00:39:43 time is so lewd you know women should cover their heads you know or um you know a wife should submit
00:39:49 to her husband like when he makes his argument for male headship he he pins it in in the created 0.97
00:39:56 order before sin ever even entered the world it which makes it it's timeless you know so it's
00:40:01 yeah it's just it's just a hard position to defend this whole egalitarianism thing
00:40:08 But Scott McKnight, he'll keep trying.
00:40:12 Yeah, they don't stop.
00:40:13 They keep writing books.
00:40:14 Yeah, they'll keep trying.
00:40:16 Okay, if you don't mind, you want to go ahead and hop into 1 Timothy 2 a little bit?
00:40:21 Yeah, absolutely.
00:40:22 Let's do that.
00:40:23 Let me read the text real quick.
00:40:25 And I particularly want to hear your thoughts on women being saved through childbearing, which I believe is verse 15.
00:40:31 But I'll start in verse 9.
00:40:32 This is 1 Timothy 2, starting in verse 9.
00:40:36 The Bible says,
00:41:06 Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. Yet she 0.89
00:41:12 will be saved through childbearing if they continue in faith and love and holiness with
00:41:18 self-control. Yeah. So, I mean, this is one of, if not the central text in debates over gender
00:41:29 roles, particularly in the church. And, you know, Ephesians 5 gets all the attention for the home,
00:41:35 But this is the passage we go to.
00:41:39 We're talking about, can women be pastors or elders?
00:41:43 Can women preach? 1.00
00:41:45 Right? 1.00
00:41:46 That's another question. 1.00
00:41:48 Unfortunately, I think there's some people who would say that a woman can't be a pastor, but she could preach. 1.00
00:41:55 She can preach under the authority of the elders. 1.00
00:41:57 Yeah. 0.96
00:41:57 Yeah.
00:41:58 Which I mean, this is very narrow complementarianism, if we can even call it that.
00:42:03 I mean, it's it's anyway. So, yeah, I think I think the context here is the public worship assembly based on verse eight, where Paul says, I desire that, you know, men should pray lifting holy hands. 0.54
00:42:18 But, you know, I wouldn't I wouldn't limit this to the public worship assembly. 0.97
00:42:25 In other words, I think this I think the principles here apply even to something like like Sunday school, like a man, you know, a woman shouldn't teach theology to to to men in the church. 0.87
00:42:37 So that that gets into kind of the application of it. 0.89
00:42:42 So obviously, yeah, it's it's it's calling women in verse 10 to to good works.
00:42:48 You know, the people focus on verse 12. I do not permit a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man. But, you know, even if you said that's just an authoritative teaching and not teaching and exercise in authority, which sometimes the egalitarians argue. 1.00
00:43:06 I mean, look at what he says. He says, rather or but, right? That's an adversative. It's strong, but she is to remain quiet. I argue in the book that could also be translated silent.
00:43:18 um so the which is explicitly said in first corinthians 14 yeah yeah and we can get there
00:43:25 the the exact opposite thing right whatever this is about teacher exercise authority i mean you
00:43:33 have the positive command to be quiet or silent and it's um paul's saying this is you know this
00:43:41 is tied with good works in verse 10.
00:43:44 And so, you know, egalitarians really need to be careful here
00:43:49 because I think they are going, well, I think they're wrong, 0.98
00:43:52 but if they are wrong here, they're encouraging women to do that which is sinful, right? 0.92
00:44:03 Instead of encouraging them in good works and pleasing God,
00:44:07 They're encouraging them to sin against God and transgress His law.
00:44:12 So this is a serious thing.
00:44:15 Paul roots the command.
00:44:19 It's actually two commands in verse 12.
00:44:24 There's the prohibition, but also the command to be quiet.
00:44:28 He roots it in verse 13.
00:44:29 For, or we could say because Adam was formed first, then Eve.
00:44:34 So he's rooting it in the very order of creation.
00:44:37 And then there's the second explanation, which is, or basis, is that Adam, verse 14, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
00:44:49 Of course, that verse sends people into all sorts of hysteria.
00:44:54 Foaming at the mouth. 1.00
00:44:57 The angry feminist, I could see them foaming at the mouth. 0.87
00:45:01 So yeah, verse 14, I think, I mean, what seems to me the most obvious reading is not, you know, most people aren't willing to say today, but it seems that Paul is saying that because Eve was deceived and Adam was not, that that's part of the reason that women aren't to teach men. 0.67
00:45:25 Now, he doesn't tell us exactly what that means, like why was Eve deceived and why was Adam not deceived?
00:45:33 But it seems that he's saying there's something to do with the fact that Adam knew exactly what he was doing.
00:45:41 He sinned openly, whereas Eve actually was deceived by the serpent. 0.94
00:45:52 And so there's something about the very being of woman, the way God has made man and woman, that women should not teach. 0.99
00:46:04 So, you know, that's one thing I argue in the book. I think, you know, even if we look to just the differences, this is kind of a natural law argument, but if we just look to the very differences in bodies and personality and things like this between men and women, that, you know, men are better suited for preaching. 1.00
00:46:26 So I actually I actually am willing to go there and say, yeah, I don't think women make as capable preachers, not in the sense that they aren't intellectually or aren't intellectual or can't be or say good things. 0.88
00:46:39 But it's just that, you know, as far as the commanding voice, the fact that women, a woman was more easily deceived. 0.93
00:46:46 I think there's something there that is to the basis as to why God says men are supposed to preach, not all men, but some men and no women are to preach. 0.63
00:46:56 Right. Yeah, Charles Spurgeon would be with you. If a guy didn't have a barrel chest with his
00:47:03 school of preachers, he would have sent him away. So not only would you have to be a man, but you
00:47:08 need to be a particular kind of man, and he would take physical stature into consideration. But
00:47:12 you're right. I mean, that's a historic position. And I don't mean historic in the sense of that's
00:47:16 what people believed a thousand years ago. I mean, that's what people believed for thousands of years
00:47:20 until 15 minutes ago, that women, part of womanly nature is more easily being deceived.
00:47:29 And again, like you said, it's not even so much, it's not, being more gullible is not,
00:47:37 that doesn't stem from an inferior status in terms of, you know, intellect. It's not that
00:47:45 women are intellectually inferior. I think that's part of the way that God designed women, 1.00
00:47:51 which reaffirms their call to serve and helpmate and submission, is that my wife is just naturally
00:48:00 more agreeable than I am. And I think God made her that way. And you can say, well, that's your
00:48:05 wife. But no, I think women in general are more agreeable than men. Men are more contrarian. Men,
00:48:13 I think, tend to be more argumentative. They tend to be more aggressive. I think that's part of how
00:48:20 God made women. And there are always exceptions to the rule, like men are physically stronger
00:48:26 than women. Can you find one woman who can outbench one man? Of course, of course. But we're 1.00
00:48:32 speaking in general principles. Men are physically stronger than women. And I think that women are
00:48:39 more agreeable than men and and those who aren't are the exception and if you say well it's a
00:48:45 pretty big exception well i would say yeah it's a pretty big exception because you've been
00:48:49 indoctrinating women from the time they were little girls for the last you know seven decades 1.00
00:48:55 to to to be contrarian that they need to be more aggressive that they need in every magazine and 0.99
00:48:59 every you know tv show and every you know so um and yet even despite all that indoctrination
00:49:06 still to this day you you just go going against you know it's like jurassic park like every horror
00:49:12 movie basically the plot is um the plot is that you've got uh you've got all the modern man and
00:49:18 their technology and they're trying to basically uh go against nature and nature always wins that's
00:49:25 i mean pretty much every good horror movie jurassic park you know what it like life will find a way
00:49:30 You know, like, it's like we, you know, it's, it's, we can, we're bigger than nature and
00:49:34 nature ultimately ends up, you know, eating you and nature wins.
00:49:40 And so it's like, despite all the indoctrination, all the modern feminism philosophies and all 0.93
00:49:44 these things, um, like you, you still wind up with a bunch of women who are now 45 years
00:49:50 old and crying, uh, because like, I wish I had had kids and there's regret. 1.00
00:49:56 And you just can't undo that, no matter, I am woman, hear me roar, no matter how many feminist seminars you go to, no matter how many Hollywood TV shows, it doesn't matter. 1.00
00:50:07 You can't beat nature. 1.00
00:50:09 God designed things in a certain way.
00:50:13 Yeah, I was even thinking of, what is this, Titus 1, these are requirements for the elders.
00:50:21 and Titus 1.9
00:50:23 and
00:50:25 you know Paul there says that
00:50:27 well I mean
00:50:30 first off he says that verse 6
00:50:33 the elder is the same as 1 Timothy 3
00:50:35 an elder must be the man of one woman 0.98
00:50:38 so he should be a man 0.97
00:50:38 and I know they try to argue well it could be both
00:50:41 but
00:50:41 I think there's good reasons against that
00:50:45 but you also have that he's supposed to
00:50:48 you know
00:50:50 manage his household well that's at least
00:50:51 1 Timothy 3. It kind of gets to here. But verse 9 is, he must hold firm to the trustworthy word
00:50:56 as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction and sound doctrine, and also to
00:51:01 rebuke those who contradict it. Now, you know, obviously, like you said, there's exceptions. But
00:51:07 in general, that's something that a man is going to be much better suited for, you know, to rebuke
00:51:14 others in false teaching. You know, that's not something God is calling women to do in some
00:51:20 public public position so yeah so i agree with you there's obviously things there um as far as
00:51:25 god's design for us yeah you want to get to verse 15 yeah yeah if we can so you know i too yeah yeah
00:51:31 i've heard a lot of different you know and i'll throw some out there but you you go ahead and
00:51:35 start yet she will be saved through childbearing if they continue with faith and love and holiness
00:51:39 with self-control what do you think yeah so uh this is uh you know it's a tricky verse it's hard
00:51:46 because if you read it you know for the first time and you're like what in the world um you know she
00:51:53 first off it says she which seems to be a reference to the woman prior to the verse so eve uh but i
00:52:02 think it's actually a generic woman uh the woman will will be saved through childbearing well what
00:52:09 the world that seems totally against uh justification by faith alone and um you know
00:52:16 then the follow-up if they continue in faith so then it's in the plural if they continue in faith
00:52:22 right and love and holiness with self-control um you know so i think a pretty common position um
00:52:31 interpretation of this passage and i get into this in the book is that it refers to um
00:52:39 Jesus, right? The Messiah in some capacity. And, you know, I don't think that's the case. I don't
00:52:48 take the Messianic view. I think that Paul is saying, he's using the word childbearing as a,
00:52:56 what is it, a metonym? No, metonymy. Yeah, it's a part, no, synecdoche. I'm sorry,
00:53:05 confusing these literary terms uh synecdoche it's a part representing the whole so in other words
00:53:13 childbearing it's not that a woman is saved by having children it's that women are saved
00:53:22 through faith in christ but that faith expresses itself in a woman's proper duties right and so 0.93
00:53:31 childbearing stands for womanly behavior. And I think contextually, this makes good sense 0.97
00:53:38 because, you know, he had just, Paul had just told women to, you know, practice godliness and
00:53:48 good works, verse 10. And then he tells women to be submissive, learn quietly with all submissiveness.
00:53:55 and they're not to teach or exercise authority over men but remain quiet and so so paul is saying
00:54:03 don't act like men right these are tasks for men you women aren't to do that as christians
00:54:08 uh but here's what you are to do is your womanly duties and you know the most obvious 0.94
00:54:15 thing there is is women have children right they they get pregnant and they have babies and
00:54:23 and nurse them and take care of them and and so i think paul is calling women to um
00:54:31 to the duties that god has placed on them and and that's part of what it means to be a godly woman
00:54:36 yep i completely agree i think it's um i remember when i i preached the first timothy it was
00:54:41 was 2019 it may have been 18 i think it was 2019 and um and we had about a third of the church leave
00:54:54 um during you know during chapter two within about a month uh it might have been two months max but
00:55:02 we had about 40 you know 40 adults who were members leave the church and and part of it
00:55:08 you know, in their defense was I was changing my views. So it wasn't what they signed up for,
00:55:13 you know, because I bit off more than I could chew. I started church planting before I was really
00:55:19 ready to plant a church. You know, the church actually started off originally as a vineyard
00:55:25 church, which is egalitarian, as well as charismatic. And, you know, they don't really
00:55:31 have a position on soteriology. And so anyways, but that was my background. And then eventually
00:55:38 we became Acts 29, and I was kind of soft complementarian, you know, and then eventually,
00:55:43 you know, I was tired of doing theology a la carte, and so I wanted to be able to affirm a
00:55:48 confession of faith, and so it was somewhere in between the Acts 29 and, you know, in confessional,
00:55:53 more 1689 Baptist transition there in 2019. I was preaching through this, and a lot of people left
00:56:01 because I preached exactly what you said. You know, I said, in some sense, it could be, you know,
00:56:06 that like, you know, women will be saved through childbearing. I think John Piper says it like
00:56:11 this, that it doesn't say they'll be saved by childbearing, but they'll be saved through
00:56:16 childbearing. In the same way that, you know, a ship out at sea isn't saved by a storm. But if
00:56:24 the ship is strong and steady and continues, you know, straight ahead, keeping the eye on the
00:56:28 horizon, you know, then the ship would be saved through the storm. So it's not saved by the storm.
00:56:34 the storm is the very thing that's threatening it but it's going to be saved through that storm
00:56:38 and childbearing and i mean you know it i i understand his argument he's saying childbearing
00:56:43 you know even today but especially um in in times past a lot of women died in childbearing
00:56:50 you know childbearing was a very dangerous thing a lot of children would be lost in childbearing i
00:56:54 mean you read some of the puritans and it's like they had 10 kids and nine of them you know didn't
00:56:59 make it to adulthood, you know, and tragic stories and wives who died in childbearing and all those
00:57:04 kinds of things. And so, you know, Piper's saying, you know, a woman will be saved through childbearing
00:57:08 if she keeps her eyes on Christ. Here's a frightening thing, but God will preserve you
00:57:13 through it. And, you know, that was my prior position. I like that position because that
00:57:19 position didn't bother anybody. Nobody was upset by that. But as I started, you know, dealing with
00:57:24 the text more and more and thinking of the context, like, you know, if this was just some
00:57:27 random verse, you know, but it's coming on the heels of verse 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, you know
00:57:34 what I mean? Like where it's all about a woman should learn in quietness and full submission,
00:57:39 I do not permit it. And so it's all these things that a woman shouldn't do. And I think you 1.00
00:57:44 mentioned that in your book, Zach, and I thought it was really good, but it's not coincidental.
00:57:48 It's like, here are things that women can't do, but here's a really great thing that women can do,
00:57:54 and it's not some side peripheral thing. It is a vital thing, the very thing that a woman would
00:58:01 be saved by. It is an eternally weighty, full-orbed, massive thing. So women can't do this
00:58:11 thing. And we all kind of know this thing matters, preaching the word, leadership, headship. 1.00
00:58:18 But here's this other thing that women can't do that, but they can do this, and this other thing 0.60
00:58:24 really, really matters. So women not being saved through childbearing, but actually being saved
00:58:31 by childbearing, and then you have to give the preface and say, but no one is saved, man, woman,
00:58:36 child, no one's saved by our works. But it's the same kind of language as we see in the book of
00:58:40 James, that faith without works is dead. And so when being saved by childbearing, it's as an
00:58:49 effect as an evidence of faith. And so that's what I ended up preaching. And I slowed down
00:58:57 instead of just speeding through the text, I slowed down and I did 1 Timothy chapter 2, 9
00:59:01 through 15, four weeks in a row. So four parts, a whole month just on that, working through.
00:59:08 And verse 15 got a whole sermon, a 60-minute sermon. And it was a great church shrinking
00:59:15 strategy uh really really did a wonder so anyways i i agree with you wholeheartedly i look at it as
00:59:21 it's not through being saved through the the difficult storm of childbearing but by childbearing
00:59:26 and that's not to be you know a contradiction to being saved by grace alone through faith alone
00:59:31 christ alone but we're say you know women are saved by childbearing in the same way that all
00:59:35 of us um are saved by works in the sense that that that faith apart from works isn't real faith
00:59:41 it's a dead faith it's an evidence works right and so i get in this i get in this a little bit
00:59:45 in the book is that you know we're justified by faith alone but i i do think the reform position
00:59:52 is uh the biblical position is that genuine faith is is necessarily accompanied by good works it
01:00:00 produces good works that's you know what you're saying with james 2 right that's going to look a
01:00:05 little bit different for men and women uh obviously a lot of things should be the same
01:00:09 But we do have different duties that God has placed on us.
01:00:13 And so that means a man should, you know, lead his wife well.
01:00:20 He should be a godly father and godly man.
01:00:23 And a woman should be a godly woman and mother. 0.98
01:00:26 And so that includes childbearing.
01:00:30 And of course, what are we seeing people cast off today? 0.88
01:00:33 I mean, what is kind of ungodly femininity today, or we can just say ungodliness amongst women, is that they're casting off childbearing. 1.00
01:00:44 They don't want to have kids. 1.00
01:00:45 Right.
01:00:46 And Paul is giving a warning here, too.
01:00:49 You know, so that's a pretty serious thing.
01:00:51 I think I say in the book is women aren't, you know, it's not like they're going to be saved just because they have kids. 0.59
01:01:00 Obviously, they're saved by faith in Christ.
01:01:03 And that's necessary. 0.98
01:01:05 But if a woman rebels against God's design for her as a woman, meaning she actively rejects having kids, then that should concern her. 0.98
01:01:18 That's a sign that she may not have faith. 0.99
01:01:21 Absolutely.
01:01:22 Especially if it continues. 1.00
01:01:23 It's one thing in her 20s that she eventually grows up and repents. 0.96
01:01:29 But if a woman claims to be a follower of Jesus, but over the course of her entire life, 0.98
01:01:35 I mean, she goes to the grave childless, and not because she was barren, but deliberately 0.97
01:01:40 by choice. 0.99
01:01:43 Yeah, that's... 0.93
01:01:44 I mean, and just to make it fair, on the other side of the equation, if a man doesn't
01:01:52 do some of his chief callings to protect and to provide, like work, the Bible has a verse
01:01:58 about that too. 1.00
01:01:59 That he's denied the faith and worse than an unbeliever. 1.00
01:02:02 So it's really not a coincidence. 1.00
01:02:03 It really makes a lot of sense when you think, if a woman hates childbearing, she may not be saved.
01:02:10 1 Timothy 2, verse 15. 0.91
01:02:13 And then Titus says, and if a guy won't provide for the members of his family, especially his own household, his immediate family, then he's denied the faith and he's worse than an unbeliever. 0.89
01:02:25 He may not be saved.
01:02:26 So it's taking, too, those quintessential evidences of obedience, what obedience looks like in a man and what obedience looks like in a woman, and recognizing that obedience, it looks different given your station, whether you're a man, whether you're a woman, but whether it be womanly obedience or masculine obedience, in both instances, that's an evidence of the one thing that does save, which is faith.
01:02:54 And faith that has no evidence, especially the claim to have faith that has the absence of evidence, even aggression and aversion towards that evidence over the course of a lifetime, yeah, we should assume that that person is not in Christ.
01:03:14 yeah i agree if i could just add briefly here i think supporting what we're saying on on first
01:03:21 timothy 2 15 lest people say uh oh we're just pointing to some obscure verse uh chapter five
01:03:27 of the same letter first timothy 5 14 and paul says so i would have younger widows marry bear
01:03:34 children manage their households i think that's a different managing than what the husband's
01:03:39 supposed to do it's different great different greek word it's like proverbs 31 yeah yeah
01:03:44 absolutely um and give the adversary no occasion for slander so so paul is saying hey if a woman's
01:03:52 younger and her husband dies she should marry and and he's telling her and have kids right that's
01:03:57 part of the part of it and then um of course there's titus 2 um where where paul says the
01:04:04 The older women are to train the younger women, Titus 2.4, 0.93
01:04:09 to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled, pure, 0.99
01:04:12 working at home, kind and submissive to their own husbands,
01:04:16 that the word of God may not be reviled.
01:04:18 So those are kind of parallel passages in some ways.
01:04:20 But, yeah, you got that word working at home.
01:04:22 And I don't know how people try to get around some of these verses.
01:04:27 Right, keepers at home.
01:04:30 Yeah, and, you know, so working at home, kind and submissive to their own husbands,
01:04:34 that the word of God may not be reviled. I remember that hitting me like a ton of bricks,
01:04:38 you know, a few years back when I was like, here I am not wanting in my preaching to say that
01:04:44 Christian women should be submissive to their husbands and keepers at home. And the reason 1.00
01:04:49 why I'm wanting to pull those biblical, clearly biblical punches, the reason I want to pull those
01:04:54 punches is because I don't want the word of God to be reviled. But the word of God actually says
01:04:59 the exact opposite. So I'm trying to spare God's word the potential of getting attack
01:05:06 from feminists and egalitarians by saying what it actually says. And the irony, and I remember
01:05:14 being so convicted by this, but the irony is God's word actually says that when women actually live
01:05:21 according to his standard of actually submitting to their husbands, joyfully submitting to their 0.93
01:05:26 husbands and being happy to be keepers at home and forsaking, you know, out of the home careers
01:05:32 to predominantly focus on childbearing and rearing and all those kinds of things, that that's actually
01:05:37 the way that the Word of God will not be reviled. And am I either going to, am I going to trust
01:05:41 God's strategy for keeping His Word from being reviled or my strategy, you know? And that was
01:05:48 really, that was convicting, you know? And so, one other thing with Titus 2, I want to just ask you
01:05:54 about this, but older women, you know, likewise are to be reverent in behavior, not slanders
01:05:58 or slaves to much wine. They are to teach what is good. And so the way that I read that is they 0.99
01:06:06 are to teach the good. And what is the good? It's training. And so the good thing to teach
01:06:13 is to train young women, all these things. So for me, that was another switch where again,
01:06:18 And people hated me and left the church and those kinds of things.
01:06:22 But, you know, for a while, I realized we had certain women's ministries that really only existed.
01:06:31 They didn't exist because, oh, man, the content here is just so awesome.
01:06:34 Or, man, the women just really need this. 1.00
01:06:37 Or we're fulfilling some kind of biblical commandment that must be met. 0.94
01:06:40 These women's ministries, they only existed because we needed a context where women could teach. 0.97
01:06:47 because women wanted to teach and had some gifting. 1.00
01:06:51 And a lot of our women actually didn't want to teach, 1.00
01:06:53 but we wanted them to teach 1.00
01:06:54 because we just thought that they should 1.00
01:06:56 because we're looking at other women
01:06:58 in soft complementarian churches and they're teaching.
01:07:01 So we created a context because we were complementarian.
01:07:05 We weren't patriarchal yet, but we were complementarian.
01:07:08 So we wanted to create some kind of context 0.86
01:07:10 where women wouldn't be teaching men. 0.67
01:07:12 So we need a women-only context for women to teach.
01:07:15 But then the problem is that the content, and this was not the women's fault.
01:07:18 This was my fault before, you know, the Lord brought conviction in some of these areas. 0.68
01:07:22 But the content in these women's ministries where women are teaching other women is they're teaching doctrine of God. 0.99
01:07:30 They're teaching theology proper. 0.92
01:07:31 They're teaching soteriology.
01:07:33 They're teaching the sovereignty of God in all things, His providence.
01:07:35 You know, when the reality is it's like, but I teach that.
01:07:40 and I teach it to men and women on the Lord's Day by expositional preaching through whole books of
01:07:46 the Bible, text by text. The elders do that. The elders are going to teach theology of God,
01:07:51 you know, and when I really looked at Titus 2, I realized, yeah, older women should teach,
01:07:57 and I think that they should teach younger women. I think that's organic, one-on-one,
01:08:02 you know, small groups, but I think also there can be contexts of larger groups where an older
01:08:06 woman is teaching 20 or even 200 younger women at one time. But the question is, what are they
01:08:12 teaching? It's not just that an older woman gets to teach doctrine of God and theology proper, 0.97
01:08:17 but she's teaching younger women specifically how to love their husbands and children and be
01:08:24 self-controlled, pure, how to work at home, be kind, and submit to their husbands. Would you 0.97
01:08:30 agree with that? So I look at ties to not just that there is a context for women teaching, namely
01:08:34 older women teaching younger women, but that Titus 2 is actually also setting the curriculum,
01:08:39 as it were, for what those older women should be teaching. 0.54
01:08:43 Yeah, I think I agree with you. I don't think Titus 2 or really anywhere in the Bible 0.99
01:08:50 forbids women from teaching scripture and theology to other women. However, I would come back and say
01:08:58 the emphasis is on women training younger women in femininity, in godly womanhood. 0.72
01:09:13 So this is kind of like the issue with women working outside the home. 0.63
01:09:17 We got to be careful that we don't bind people's consciences with commands that God has not given or prohibitions he hasn't given. 0.95
01:09:27 However, we can still look at Scripture and say, well, here's the emphasis, right? 0.84
01:09:33 That God has designed women to be homeward-oriented, to direct their work towards the home and children. 0.98
01:09:43 And so I think a big problem in the church today is we have all of these Bible studies and women's Bible studies. 0.57
01:09:52 And again, I don't think there's a prohibition on women's Bible studies.
01:09:56 However, you know, it's great for women to have women's groups, men's groups, and they pray together, fellowship, all these things.
01:10:03 The primary teaching should come from the elders and the pastor, of course, the Sunday morning or if you meet evening, you know, Sunday teaching, preaching.
01:10:17 However, the church needs mentorship and older, I mean, you even have, it speaks of older men, but I just think this is something just hugely lacking in the church today is the older men training the younger men, but specifically here, the older women training the younger women.
01:10:41 I think part of the reason we have so much feminism in the church today is maybe our older women aren't following godly femininity.
01:10:50 I don't know. I'm sure that's the case in some corners. 0.99
01:10:53 But they're certainly not training the younger women to do so.
01:10:57 And this shouldn't just have to come from the pulpit.
01:11:00 But if the first time a young woman in your church is hearing about submitting to her husband and working at home because her own, you know, if her mother's a Christian or other older women, assuming she's been in the church for a while, if older women haven't taught her this stuff, then those older women are failing at this command, Titus 2.
01:11:25 And so I think this is part of the, this is just a problem in the church.
01:11:30 Of course, there's the cultural pressure, but the church needs to teach these things from the pulpit. 0.86
01:11:36 But the older women need to do their job in training the younger women in godly femininity. 0.90
01:11:43 Amen. I completely agree. 0.98
01:11:45 Well, hey, we're starting to run out of time.
01:11:46 Are there any final thoughts that you have for us, Zach?
01:11:48 Any extra things that we didn't get to that you want to get out there?
01:11:53 Well, I know the one thing we didn't talk about was 1 Corinthians 14.
01:11:56 Maybe we can save that for another day.
01:11:58 I do argue, I'll just say I do argue that it's a parallel passage to 1 Timothy 2.
01:12:04 There's actually a lot of similarities.
01:12:07 I've written on this topic some, obviously in the book.
01:12:13 I have a whole chapter on it.
01:12:14 I have some stuff online.
01:12:16 I actually wrote a journal article for Covenant Theological Seminary's journal called Presbyterian with an O.
01:12:25 And and yeah, so I argue my view in there kind of responding to this other article.
01:12:32 But I really do think it's a parallel passage with First Timothy, too.
01:12:36 And I think it helps strengthen the reading of both passages because egalitarians tend to try to dismiss it.
01:12:44 and uh most complementarians say that paul's only prohibiting the evaluation of prophecy and i just
01:12:51 think that's totally wrong that's a really novel position and um anyway so if people are interested
01:12:58 in that they can you know they can pick up the book great okay tell our listeners as we go ahead
01:13:03 and conclude where can they follow you what's the name of the book where can they get the book
01:13:07 yeah so it's it's masculine christianity uh you can get it on um i mean you can do a google search
01:13:14 for it uh different vendors uh amazon um if you want the audiobook there is the amazon audiobook
01:13:21 there's also canon plus so if you have the canon plus app it's on there i think they maybe even had
01:13:27 it for free was what i saw i you know i don't know if they're still doing that but um you could just
01:13:32 go listen to it they were promoting things cool um yeah so people you can find me on twitter uh
01:13:38 i have a website knowing scripture.com if people want to uh read some of my other stuff um you know
01:13:44 they can they can go there great all right zach thanks for coming on the show god bless brother
01:13:48 yeah thanks for having me god bless you too y'all can i be frank with you for just a second
01:13:53 right here at the end look some of you guys you're financially supporting this ministry
01:13:58 and from the bottom of my heart, I say thank you. I cannot thank you enough. However, some of you,
01:14:05 you just, you can't afford it. In fact, some of you, you shouldn't afford it. Let's be honest.
01:14:12 I mean, we're living in Joe Biden's ridiculous economy. Our nation and our totalitarian political 0.94
01:14:20 elites lost their minds over the last three years due to COVID. We have written checks that we
01:14:28 simply cannot cash. It doesn't matter if people change the definition of a recession. We are
01:14:34 living in a recession right now regardless. Some of you are struggling to afford a carton of eggs
01:14:41 at the grocery store. You cannot support financially this ministry at this time, nor should
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