THEOLOGY APPLIED - Are Women’s Ministries Actually Biblical？
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Harmful content
Misogyny
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Summary
Pastor Joel Webin sits down with author Rachel Jankovic to discuss the lack of women's ministry in local churches, and why this is a problem. In this episode of Theology Applied, Pastor Webin and Rachel discuss: How Women's Ministry Went Wrong Why Women's Ministries in Local Churches Have Gone Wrong
Transcript
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Hi, welcome to another episode of Theology Applied. I am your host,
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Pastor Joel Webin with Right Response Ministries, and you're about to listen to
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one of my all-time favorite episodes. What we're doing for the month of July
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is we're taking four of my personal favorite episodes that also happen to be four of the
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most popular episodes that we've ever done. And this is an interview between myself and Rachel
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Jankovic. Rachel Jankovic. She's written a book called You Who, dealing with women and sadly,
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the obsession that many of them have in finding identity and worth and value in and of themselves.
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And in this particular episode, what we focus on is the biblical merit or lack thereof with
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Basically, we are addressing the question of whether or not women's ministries in local
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Spoiler alert, the answer is in many cases, no.
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All right, welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied.
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This is Pastor Joel Webin with Right Response Ministries.
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Today, I have Rachel Jankovic as a guest on our show.
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And we're going to be talking about the title for our topic is
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And so I feel like Rachel has a lot to say about this.
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she's um she's spoken about this in her writing her blogs or podcasting all those kinds of things
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and so i'm really excited and honored and privileged to have her as a guest so without
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further ado uh rachel could you tell our audience a little bit about yourself sure thanks for having
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me glad to be here and i am a wife and mother that's that's what i do with my life i'm married
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to live we have seven kids ages almost 16 down to almost five so most of my life what i'm doing is
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feeding people taking people to school doing the laundry that's that's really what i do
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but i also have written a few books for mothers and then followed that up with a book on identity
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because of how many identity problems i was seeing among christian mothers when they would
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ask questions i think actually you just don't understand what it means to be a christian and
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what your life is supposed to be like and what you're for and that one's called you who and then
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i'm heavily involved in the bible reading challenge and just trying to be a faithful
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christian wife and mother here in moscow that's great let's go ahead and just dive right into our
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topic what are some of the problems that you see with the typical women's ministry in our local
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churches today? Okay. It's a big, that's a real big question. I would say, I think that women's
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ministry probably started as like a women's auxiliary type event in churches, meaning that
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women were getting together to work on behalf of the church. Like, you know, you think of wartime
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things or even trying to earn money for the organ or, you know, whatever it was that they were doing,
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women were getting together to work together and that was that was the goal well as uh our culture
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things have really shifted so if you think about that old old school kind of women are sewing
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quilts and crocheting baby blankets for the needy well that's less likely to be needed now right we
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don't need we don't actually need people to be crocheting the blankets because we have mass
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produced things. The cultural situation changed. So what I think happened is you still had this
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women getting together, but we made the women in the church themselves the work of the women
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in the church. So instead of women working shoulder to shoulder for the kingdom and for
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the gospel, it turned into a circle where we're facing one another, where it's all about ourselves.
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I feel like in our nation today, you know, you always hear the term easy believism.
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And we could say that part of the problem with the evangelical church in America is it's just too dang easy to be a Christian.
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And it sounds like kind of part of what you're saying is maybe more specifically, it's too easy to be a Christian woman.
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yeah because of modern conveniences so I hear you saying that if I want to love
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my wife well I need to to sell our dishwasher and microwave is that
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correct of course yeah that's what I mean I actually have I serve on what is
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effectively our women's ministry in a church in our church and we but I can
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say that it's a tremendous blessing of fellowship for women to be working
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together towards something so i'm not suggesting that we discard the ways that women get to know
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each other the ways that we support one another the ways that women can be thoughtful of one
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another but the focus of what we're trying to do has an awful lot to do with how healthy that kind
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of support will be right like how healthy how actually god-centered how uh actually encouraging
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the health is so you asked me i mean i only said one thing that i think has gone wrong but if you
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think about this system we've made where the women are all facing each other and you have women in
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charge whose job it is to have needy women in the church right it's essentially a welfare system
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like they would think that the women's ministry is failing if nobody shows up for them but if
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all the women are not desperately emotionally needy and they don't need to go they're like
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I don't need to show up for this moment because they're not needed to work. It's like they're for
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they're consumers of ministry, right? They're supposed to come and receive something that
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will bless them. If they're not coming, that would be seen as a failure of somebody. But
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the reality is they might just be doing well. They might be spiritually healthy and that would kill
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off the women's ministry in some ways. And the other way is that problem that you end up with
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women teachers where the godly women in the church are become sort of the pastors for women
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right instead of being instead of themselves being the most hospitable the most uh you know like
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instead of them pursuing the roles that women are called to they are turning into like the pastors
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for the women church right in the church yeah yeah i have definitely witnessed that um you kept
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up saying this face-to-face versus shoulder-to-shoulder. It reminds me of C.S. Lewis when he
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talks about the essence of friendship. He says, you know, the essence of friendship. Yeah, exactly.
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It's this you too, essence of light, meaning that we're not just, we're not, we're certainly
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not navel-gazing. Sadly, I think a lot of women's ministry has gone beyond face-to-face, and I think
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you would agree with this. It's now gone to just looking at your own, your own navel.
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Everybody get out your sin and let's talk about it.
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I do think, and in Four Loves, I think he says that, that those who are going nowhere
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can have no fellow travelers, and that is the thing is that there's, while women are
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in this circle, pouring out their grief and supporting one another in their messes and
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their tangles, and they're like, just hear it and feel it with one another, nobody's
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So they're actually still missing what they need desperately, which is the companionship
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of fellow travelers, but there's no trajectory.
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So they think they're having, they think they're getting it, but they're still missing what
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It sounds like what you're saying is women, godly women need a mission and it doesn't
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need to be focused on themselves, but like, what are we doing together?
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And I always think about like, it's not like men are called to work and women aren't.
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we just have two different arenas where we're called to work and men and in many ways work
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outside of the home with provision and protection whereas women are called to work in the home but
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it's still working there's still a mission and if if women aren't thinking in terms of mission or
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working then it just yeah it just becomes kind of this this love fest of you know you're amazing
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you're awesome and that's what women's ministry consists of rather than you have a mission are
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you doing it well if so okay i'll see you on the lord's day when the pastor preaches to us because
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you're healthy and if you're not doing it well then let's let's you know as an extracurricular
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not a substitute to the lord's day to being a part of this local church but extracurricular
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let's uh let's get an older woman around you to help beef up your you know your your success in
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fulfilling your mission at home would you agree with that yes yes i think i would mostly agree
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that my the one thing i would say is that i i do think men are women are called to different
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areas but i don't think husbands and wives are called to different areas they're called to be
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a godly household and building you know for the kingdom it's a kingdom building calling that a
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husband and wife share the actual roles are different but it's not like what i'm doing
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at home is not my husband's sphere. It's what I'm doing with him unto the Lord. So it is different
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in the sense that, yes, I think I'm called to different, I'm called to different work than he
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is, but it's not like they don't overlap. Like I'm called to this and he's called over there and
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we're not actually called to the same life together. That's helpful. So you're pushing
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back on like what I said in terms of, okay, we have two different, the difference between men
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men and women is we have two different spheres. Cause you're right. I should clarify. It's less
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of that. It's more of no, like we're both trying to build the kingdom by building
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godly households. And so it's not so much we're working in two different spheres, but,
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but we're working in two different ways. You're, you're doing one thing and I'm doing another.
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Exactly. So it's the same, but I would say my husband and I, so I think it's an important
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distinction that what I'm doing at home, I'm doing as his helper. I'm not doing it. I'm not
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doing it because this is my work i'm doing it because this is his work and he and god has given
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him me to help him get this accomplished so that is it is different as far as it's not as uh i
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don't think that the home is like the woman's domain like the woman is stuck here i think it's
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my domain like god has called me to do this work on behalf of us as a family and his people no
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that's really good i've heard it said before i can't remember the exact reference but i've heard
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it said that um that a woman is always like similar to what your dad has said with doug wilson
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in terms of like a man even his absence he's still no matter what he's the head of his home and uh
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and so whether that's an empty chair or a abusive chair at the table or a godly chair either way
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he's the head of his home he's just he's a good one or a bad one in the same way would you would
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you i've heard it said that a woman is always going to be the help mate of a man it's either
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going to be her husband or it's going to be she's going to be building the household of her husband
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or she's going to be building if she works for some company she's nine times out of ten building
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another man's kingdom she's she's she's she's helping a man build something as his helpmate
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and and what we want to encourage women to do is uh use that energy use those gifts use that that
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love and everything that god's given you to build up your husband's uh his house would you agree
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with that statement i don't know i actually think i'm thinking as you say that i don't know that i
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would say that that in the same way that there's no exceptions that that's what would be happening
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but i think it's very typical i mean that's that that's that chesterton quote right about the
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million women who rose up and said we will not be dictated to and became stenographers like like
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don't tell me what to do i'll be your secretary right just it's hilarious but but yes i believe
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that that's often the case but i don't know that i'd want to say that's a universal
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gotcha so so you want to say it's as universal as uh a man being the head of his home
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but you but you would be willing to admit that there is an irony that often seems to be true
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yeah totally yeah that's typically the case for sure fair enough okay so here's another question
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how can pastors who biblically should be male, how can they effectively love and shepherd 50,
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typically 50% of their church, namely the women?
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Okay, so when it comes to women's ministry, I sometimes make this distinction that I think
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women should be thinking in terms of a ministry of women. What can we do together that is a
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ministry uh versus there's really only one ministry of the church and it's for men and women right the
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ministry of the word and sacrament that's what is that's not something that is for men only right
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so because the office of preaching and pastoring is for men biblically that doesn't mean that it is
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only effective for the men in the congregation it's for all of god's people including you know
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children women everyone should be under the faithful teaching of god's word and that's
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really the ministry the one ministry of the church is that so i would say the most critical thing is
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for a pastor to be faithfully preaching god's word faithfully teaching god's word and uh one
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of the most common ways that pastors don't love the women in their church is by being afraid of
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them and I think that that that I have joked sometimes one of the best things
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my husband one of the most wonderful things about my husband is how he's not
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at all afraid of me and what I mean by that is that it's a real mercy to women
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in a church when the pastor is not afraid to say something that might upset
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some women in the church are afraid to because I think this has been a really
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bad little cycle that we've gotten into the pastors afraid to directly address
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women in the congregation and because he's afraid to directly address women
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like because he's not a woman because the women will you know in a lot of
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places there will be huge outcry and the women will get their husbands mad and
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never you know it'll turn into a big scene of the addresses of women so then
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what they end up doing is they have a bunch of women who need something so
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then they add they start a women's ministry where the whole premise of why
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they're asking a woman to do it is because we don't want to say a thing that actually
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addresses the women so then you have created this bizarrely emotional situation where we
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exist to serve the emotions of the women in the church rather than the church exists or
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that the preacher is preaching because he serves God and his word right and the and the people
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are called to come under that and obey God's word instead it's like well we'll start a
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whole other branch of things where we won't say the hard things to women. And I think that that's
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just, it really, really belittles women to think that godly Christian women cannot hear God's word
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preached and apply it to their life and actually be as encouraged by that as men are. Yeah.
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No, you're right. It's demeaning to women. It's that they won't be as edifying,
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they won't be as encouraged but also that they um that they can't handle it they can't handle it
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right that they don't handle it if god's word says something to you that's right so like i mean if we
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i it's so funny how you know like i mean if you just do like a youtube search for like courageous
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preachers and courageous sermons um you know like you so often if i had a dollar for every time i
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I hear some pastor, you know, just railing on the men in the church.
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And I'm thinking, I'm thinking that's courageous.
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It doesn't sound like it took much courage because I hear a roaring applause in the background.
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You want to hear a pastor get up there and say, I know you're being lazy housewives and you're disrespecting your husband.
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Yeah, it's not going to go over something.
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I would take like when I when I want to be inspired by courageous men, I like to read, you know, just the first chapter of Amos that starts off with, you know, calling women cows.
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You know, like that's I'm like, wow, 2020.
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I would say that I that I'm not sure that I think that style of preaching is super effective in any direction.
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So yes, it could be courageous, but it might, it might not be effective.
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So I'm not saying you have to use that tone, but the fact that like Amos, a man is, and,
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and, but that's what you're getting at is that it's not about the man.
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And so the credibility doesn't, doesn't rest ultimately with the messenger.
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And I can't help but think that some of this is just the outflowing implications of our
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man-centered churches our man-centered ministries our man-centered theology that if it's all about
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meeting felt needs well then eventually if it's all about the people and not about God
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as it goes to to the people in the pews well eventually that's going to affect the pulpit
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meaning that the person in the pulpit the authority begins to rest on him the man rather than the
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message and so I think a lot of times men male pastors don't feel like they can really call out
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some of the sins that the Bible very clearly addresses in women because they think that they
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don't have the credentials to do so by virtue of not being a woman. But ultimately, that entire
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sentiment, what it does, in effect, is it transfers the authority from the Word to the man.
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Yeah, to the person. So, one thing that's interesting about that is that I'm a woman,
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so I can call out women on their sins, but I can tell you that it doesn't go better. Like,
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it's not it's not like just because you're a woman and you say listen I also
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have toddlers and you need to get up and deal with this like you can't you can't
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like if someone says you know I woke up and my toddler had a dirty diaper and so
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I just hid in my bed for an hour well I could be like you know what I've woken
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up and had a toddler with a dirty diaper also and your job is to get up and go
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handle that and it doesn't matter because because what they're saying you
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have to have experienced is exactly what they're doing you have to have stumbled
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exactly the way they have and not see any solution to it that's that's what's required because the
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fact that i've lived through things doesn't make it more attractive to women who don't want to
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actually hear the answer to it you know that's super helpful it reminds me of jesus like he's
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a merciful high priest because he too has been tempted but he associates with the lowly not
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because he shares in our sin but because he's shared in a commonality of temptation experiences
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So what you're saying is that what sadly many women in the church today are wanting is not
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even a shared experience. Even that is kind of a veil for what they really want is a shared
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surrender to the flesh. Would you agree with that? It has to be you also are stuck in the same mud
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with me. Not like you know the way to get out of this and you're giving me a hand. It's like,
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which you actually see in things all over the internet.
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Like, you know, there are always these little posts
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because the privileged position has been switched
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that's the one, that's the privileged position.
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You know, someone who reaches out their hand to you
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You know, like if you quoted that at a time like this,
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our culture today i mean what you're speaking to is more generally it's not just related to women
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but but on the whole with privilege in our culture today comes power so the so the power the one who
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holds the power is uh the one who is the one in the sin that's right the one the problem is the
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one with the power about how everybody else ought to get them out of it and i have told we we i have
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teenagers uh and we always laugh about this because sometimes if you're like okay somebody's in a bad
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and say you're talking to about it or you're teasing them about it and there
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they'll be like mom I it's not helping you know like this isn't helping your
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efforts to make me overcome this or not helping and we always laugh about this
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they laugh also I just said that's great if you know what will help then why
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don't you go handle it yourself that's of course of course I'm not gonna have
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that like of course me saying all right we got to get past this of course they
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don't always know exactly what is the thing that will pull you out of it but
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But in the absence of you handling it, I'm having to try.
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So if you have the perfect knowledge about how to get a woman who's going through a grief
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to not be bitter at everyone and to not whatever, well, then go ahead and handle it yourself.
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You shouldn't be just telling everyone else how to do it.
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You keep using this phrase like, get out of it, get out of it.
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And it just keeps making me think of, well, it just makes me think of like in our culture
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today in the church, sadly is no exception, but one of the most esteemed virtues seems to be
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empathy. So like when you say, get me out of it, whereas, you know, you've, you've said multiple
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times now, what, what many women sadly want is when they're in it and the proverbial it being
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sin, weakness, struggling, suffering, difficult, it's this quicksand. And when someone is in that
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quicksand, rather than, than a helping hand to get them out, what they want is for somebody else,
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not to get them out, but to get in, to, to not to, not to like sympathy is to suffer with,
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but empathy is to suffer in. And, and so I think that that's, that's not just particular to women,
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but our culture as a whole right now is just all about empathy, empathy, empathy, just even
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watching the DNC. I mean, if I, you know, if, if we could some, if we played a drinking game and
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you had to take a, take a swig every time the word empathy was said by Michelle Obama and everybody
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else like we'd be plastic you know i'd be disqualified from being an elder so i know
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could you talk about that yeah i know i'm going to get the details of this wrong because it's been
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quite a while since i read pilgrim's progress but i should have because now i'm going to cite it
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anyways all right um i think it's christian and hopeful who end up in doubters castle like they
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end up locked up and it's and it's like they're stuck in there because they went off of the way
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and things are so they're in a big tangle right they're doubting everything it's a terrible time
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uh i think it's the giant despairs castle and they're in there and i think it might be some
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other character mr greatheart or someone who who comes there but that character who comes is the
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one who it doesn't come in there to curl up with them and be sad with them he comes in there to
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rebuke them and tell them that the key is in their pocket like you have the key to get out of here
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what are you doing? And I think that that's the problem, is that we've taken it as a great thing
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that empathy is for someone who is not currently locked in Daughter's Castle to go in there and
00:24:50.720
sit and weep with them. But if you actually know the answer, if you know Christ, if you know the
00:24:56.560
answer, then you're being awful to go just sit in there and weep with them, right? Like that's
00:25:03.200
really unkind right and and so yeah i think christians just need to have a thicker skin
00:25:09.840
about being accused of being unkind when what you're offering is kindness you know if you think
00:25:16.080
but christ this is kindness this is mercy and but we're so vulnerable to being told that we're
00:25:21.680
being unkind or that we're not like that's a thing that stresses christians out yeah so consequently
00:25:28.240
it's used all the time on us right like you're told that all the time so yeah well you have to
00:25:35.360
get a thicker skin about that yeah i completely agree yeah i i think um we often we want just a
00:25:42.720
fellow cellmate as we're rotting in jail rather than actually someone being an extension of christ
00:25:49.120
himself uh fulfilling the role of a deliverer like we we're called to be an extension of christ
00:25:55.680
where we are delivering people from bondage and from sin and uh but but in our culture today
00:26:02.480
that's not people don't want deliverance it reminds me of jesus when you know he says
00:26:06.720
do you want to be well you know in john chapter five that the man who's lame at the pool bethesda
00:26:12.480
and it seems like such a such a a pointless question but it's jesus so there's probably
00:26:18.400
a point you know but do you want to be well implying not everybody does not everybody wants
00:26:23.360
to be well you know certainly not they don't um i also think about like you said like mourning with
00:26:28.880
those who mourn so that empathetic you know just join me in my misery join me in my pain don't
00:26:33.920
actually help me don't help me get out suffer not with but in get in the muck and mire it makes me
00:26:39.280
think of you know another you know very very very often used uh scripture today romans 12 you know
00:26:45.840
mourn with those who mourn but i can't help but think that the first half of the verse is rejoice
00:26:50.320
with those who rejoice and if we look at you know if we just cross reference over to first corinthians
00:26:54.640
13 with rejoicing um we we see that love that is biblical love the love that that imitates god who
00:27:01.920
is love uh rejoices but it rejoices only in the truth and so if we took that rejoice with those
00:27:07.920
who rejoice and mourn with those who mourn we say but true christian rejoicing only rejoices in the
00:27:13.600
truth and then we just apply that to the second half of the verse meaning that we should only
00:27:17.920
mourn in the truth, then one of the first questions we have to ask, I feel like, and you
00:27:22.260
correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the first questions we should ask our fellow brother or
00:27:25.600
sister in Christ, if they're mourning, is are you mourning in the truth? Because I can only mourn
00:27:30.880
with you if you're mourning righteously. If we overturn Roe versus Wade, there would be millions
00:27:37.200
of people mourning in our nation the loss of their legal right to murder their children. But as
00:27:42.860
Christians, obviously, we don't mourn with them.
00:27:45.020
So it's got to be the implicit, you know, component of mourn with those who mourn is
00:27:53.300
And if we're mourning with someone who is mourning sinfully, then we're really just
00:28:04.600
Although I still like, so say someone goes through a real great major loss or tragedy,
00:28:10.020
Christians are called to mourn with that person and we're also called to keep
00:28:14.100
them on the path of godly mourning so it doesn't mean like if a woman loses her
00:28:19.080
husband and she starts to say something or starts to be angry with God that
00:28:23.680
you're like well I'm out of here you know right you need to have
00:28:26.460
companionship of people yes you know focusing you on Christ but I think that
00:28:31.020
I would say that happens more commonly now as people say don't talk to me about
00:28:37.180
that's I mentioned that already you know all things work together for good people
00:28:40.900
like don't talk about that kind of thing don't talk about Christ at a time like
00:28:44.260
this I just feel my pain don't try to say don't try to say godly things and
00:28:49.060
one of the things and they often say because the Bible says we put those who
00:28:53.740
weep right they're like so that's what I'm doing I'm gonna weep with those who
00:28:58.120
weep and one of the things I think is so interesting about that is have you ever
00:29:02.860
ever met a Christian who really knows the Lord, really loves the Lord, who could point
00:29:09.980
to Christ and talk of Christ in the face of a tragedy and not be weeping with those who
00:29:16.300
Like, I think, you know, someone loses a child and you go to talk to them about our Savior
00:29:24.180
It's not like that's a feelingless event, like you're talking about our dearest hope
00:29:31.920
not like you're talking about the thing that doesn't matter at all it's not platitudes it's
00:29:35.680
not and of course i can imagine a time that a christian who's too afraid of what's happening
00:29:42.000
would just want to paper some bible verses onto it and leave so they could get out of there but
00:29:48.720
that's just someone who's not going to be helped no matter what right like that's someone who's
00:29:52.720
just too fearful to be helped in that time yeah but all the real tragedies i could think of
00:29:59.120
you have a real Christian who loves the Lord, they're weeping with those who weep while they're
00:30:03.440
pointing to Christ. You know, like, there's no way that they can do that while not caring,
0.51
00:30:08.720
right? And so that's why even your weeping is truthful in that moment.
00:30:14.240
Right. Yep. No, I completely agree. And what you're describing, even some of the hypothetical
00:30:18.640
situations you threw out were, again, were things that I would categorize as mourning or weeping
00:30:26.880
righteously like the loss of a child oh yeah or the loss of your husband certainly those are
00:30:31.380
good things whereas sadly there are moments where what's being mourned is um something that um the
00:30:39.100
loss of something that that in christ we were never actually even meant to have something that
00:30:43.140
we're something that we're supposed to lose like self you know and uh yeah like i've you know like
00:30:49.320
so the the woman you know who's weeping the loss of her own identity because now she's a mother
00:30:54.220
and uh you know so but yeah that's great yes i don't i even there though i think a christian
00:31:01.580
coming alongside to point them to christ is still going to be talking about their most closely held
00:31:07.820
dearest beliefs it's compassionate to do that it's not it's not like that's missing compassion
00:31:15.260
that you're engaged in the deeper discussion with someone even if they're having a petty problem yeah
00:31:20.380
that's good yeah because god cares about our little problems um our petty problems yeah amen
00:31:27.260
because well because really in the big scheme of things with the god of the universe they're all
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00:31:31.420
petty problems that's right um okay so here's another question uh should women teach other
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00:31:36.460
women so whatever form of women discipling women because i know you believe in so whether there's
00:31:41.900
a formal women's ministry or not um that that's you know that you know that's a different subject
00:31:47.420
But certainly we both believe that women should be discipling other women.
00:31:53.140
And so in that discipleship, whatever the context may be, in that discipleship, should there be a lot of emphasis on women teaching other women doctrines, like theology proper, teaching them about the Trinity or the two natures of Christ?
00:32:13.540
or should should there be kind of a intentional focus in the teaching with women teaching other
00:32:21.660
women um should it be should it be more regulated to teaching things that specifically relate to
00:32:27.420
women and my question is coming from uh just to give you a heads up my question is coming from
00:32:31.820
titus 2 but this could be you know i this could be too too narrow of a reading of the text and so
00:32:37.720
I'm open to your pushback. But Titus 2, starting verse 3, says, older women likewise are to be
00:32:44.420
reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach, so there is a
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00:32:50.600
teaching capacity, they are to teach what is good. And so, verse 4 now, and so train the young women
00:32:56.600
to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind,
00:33:02.020
and submissive to their own husbands that the word of God may not be reviled. Would you see
00:33:07.920
that verse 3 and 4 of Titus 2 as this is what women should teach other women and hold that
0.95
00:33:13.820
real tight, like almost exclusively teaching these things? Or would you have a category for
00:33:20.900
a bunch of women in the church getting together and a woman teaching them,
1.00
00:33:25.160
we're going to teach doctrine of God? What do you think about that?
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00:33:28.760
I think that this is actually like, I just want to be clear that I don't think scripture
00:33:35.080
is overdoing itself on clarity on this, which means that I would probably really have a problem.
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00:33:42.760
Like, I think it could be way more harmful to have a situation where the pastor is saying the women
00:33:48.360
are not allowed to talk theology together. I think that that's just creepy in a way, right? Like to be
00:33:53.960
like we're banning you from these discussions or whatever that would be weird but i can say
00:33:59.640
practically speaking so i mentioned already that that i'm heavily involved in the bible reading
00:34:04.840
challenge this is this is a thing that the women in our women's ministry this is the thing that
00:34:10.280
the women in our church do which is hosting this bible reading challenge where we're encouraging
00:34:15.400
one another to be in the word we're pushing uh we're trying to get women who've never read their
00:34:20.440
bibles to be reading their bibles we're really working to get women in the word we do specifically
00:34:27.720
not teach doctrine so we and that's intentional the in and the intention there is that we intend
0.99
00:34:35.640
to teach a love of the word we want to teach the habits of being in the word we do not want to get
00:34:41.960
into trying to teach everyone doctrine does that mean that we don't talk about doctrine no it
00:34:47.400
doesn't it's like table fellowship we do talk about right we do talk about what does this mean
00:34:52.120
what's this about ask your pastor talk to you know like look like so so i have no problem at
00:34:58.680
all with women being very i want women to be very word centric and doctrine literate so yes i am
00:35:06.760
very very in favor like all of our daughters are receiving the same education as our sons we want
00:35:13.320
them learning doctrine and we want them learning theology and we want them to be well educated
00:35:18.600
and thoughtful so it's not like i don't ever want to be perceived as saying women don't need
00:35:25.640
you know like because you'll see people now saying things like women need theology
00:35:29.800
too and it's like well of course they do because women need god and we need to understand god as
00:35:35.400
he's revealed himself so of course but do women need to be trying to be pastors like trying to
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00:35:42.280
trying to look through all the commentaries and do all this and I would
0.82
00:35:46.340
just say no because this is gonna be a weird this is gonna be a weird example
00:35:51.760
just stick with me for a second so when my husband goes to work and he's out
00:35:58.540
doing all this on behalf of our family he brings home a paycheck well I
00:36:03.040
translate that paycheck into hot food on the table right like I translate his
00:36:09.500
work into something that that blesses my family that blesses the children but when i bless the
00:36:16.300
children with a hot meal i'm blessing them with the love of their father right like they're they're
00:36:22.060
the love of their father elsewhere is something that i have translated into physical comfort and
00:36:28.060
love for for them so i think in many ways in a really healthy functioning church what you have
00:36:35.420
happening is a godly pastor preaching the word and the men receive that and do one kind of work with
00:36:44.300
that and the women do the translation work and it doesn't mean that we don't need to know what like
00:36:51.260
we need to know the thing that we're translating right you know like we need to know that but
00:36:55.900
we're not that's not our emphasis is not on that part so we joke that so the bible reading challenge
00:37:01.820
we have i think it's close to 25 000 women in the facebook group doing the bible reading right now
00:37:08.380
but it's like a hospitality ministry of the women in our church but we're spending the money in the
00:37:14.700
bank of of all these women being taught from the word being like we're the money that we're
00:37:21.340
spending in this hospitality is the money of male leadership and teaching and like that's what we're
00:37:28.620
doing so we're not trying to start like a doctrine class for women but we absolutely are in favor of
00:37:36.620
women knowing what they think about doctrine right um and i would say that when we shifted this
00:37:43.980
thinking uh to focusing on getting women in the word what the titus two things specifically titus
00:37:51.740
two things came out so much more naturally when our focus was getting women in the word
00:37:57.980
then you had women saying like well i could throw up i would love to throw a party at my house to
00:38:02.940
encourage people like you have people trying to use their hospitality for a goal you had women
00:38:08.220
encouraging one another about their lives with babies because the goal is that you'll be in god's
00:38:13.340
word so you have you know someone says i'm struggling with reading every day because now i
0.98
00:38:18.380
have two babies there'll be a huge comment thread of women being like i listen first thing in the
1.00
00:38:24.140
morning when I'm nursing the baby and this is what I do." And it was a ton of practical advice
0.97
00:38:30.220
from people who also love God's Word. So I guess the only thing I would say is to be very careful
00:38:36.220
to not start making weird gender divisions that God doesn't make because I do think that women
00:38:44.860
need to understand theology. But I do also think that there's a real danger in women trying to
1.00
00:38:49.820
to become theology wonks, because that's not what we're called to.
0.99
00:38:54.200
We're called to translating the things that we've been taught into culture
00:38:59.420
building, kingdom building, home building work, and that should be our emphasis.
00:39:06.540
I think for me, the question was coming from a place of just thinking that
00:39:11.200
not for a second doubting the need for women to know theology,
00:39:16.600
discuss theology be applying theology talking about theology um i think for me it's just um
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00:39:22.660
i i just have i'd like to think it's a holy suspicion uh when when when women gravitate
00:39:29.660
towards you know and i'm sure we're thinking of some of the same women in the evangelical
00:39:34.120
public sphere but uh it's like you know this woman is like okay but what is what is this
00:39:39.300
conference even over what is she talking about like she's talking about theology proper
00:39:42.740
and it's like something like theology proper like because so agreeing with you because there isn't
00:39:50.040
some hard line distinction between men and women on this issue because there's one god who eternally
00:39:56.000
exists in three persons and we share one bible uh why do you have to be taught this subject by a
00:40:02.140
woman what you know what i mean like what what's the why why why is the lord's day the the male
00:40:08.380
pastor preaching the text on the Lord's day, talking about theology proper, why do we need
00:40:13.800
something specific? Why does it have to come from a woman? You see what I'm saying?
00:40:20.860
Yeah. And I'll do things. One is I think your suspicion is accurate because a lot of the time
00:40:27.160
that is not a standalone event. It's, it's part of a fast break for the pulpit, right? Like it's,
00:40:34.680
it's part it is there's a trajectory happening so if there's like some sweet lady in your church
00:40:40.760
who's like you know what i need to read i you know i i need to brush up on what i believe
00:40:45.400
about the trinity so she's reading a book on the trinity there's zero threat to anything there
00:40:50.280
because she's just like i've realized there's something i don't understand about my faith and i
1.00
00:40:54.840
want to flesh that out right that's good and wholesome awesome right but when it's like women
00:41:00.200
we have to rise up and teach one another the attributes of God. We're like, well, what are
0.94
00:41:06.680
you doing? What's the trajectory of this? Why are you doing that? You would enjoy this. I was at a
00:41:12.680
conference sometime where in the Q&A in a women's thing, they asked what book has most influenced
00:41:22.360
you for the glory of god other than the bible and uh this was a very this was would have been
00:41:31.240
a group where it was way cooler for it to have been a theology book right so i think one of the
00:41:37.640
answers was uh you know the attributes of god aw pink the attributes of god and you know it was
00:41:43.880
that kind of like this is uh intellectual knowledge of god and and knowing that it would provoke
00:41:50.920
something and still doing it anyways because i thought it would be funny as i said it is
00:41:57.000
i did say that's like saying what was your best conversation ever like there have been a lot of
00:42:01.240
books that have influenced me i don't want to you know but i said i would say most recently
00:42:06.920
the tartine bread cookbook and the amount of shock and awe that you would say something like that
00:42:14.760
when talking about the glory of god right and this was from a very conservative group that's
00:42:19.400
very all about resisting the influence of beth moore and resisting like it's all about not be
00:42:26.760
not letting women into the pulpit but the fact that i would say that a cookbook had been influential
00:42:33.400
in my life was like what do you think like it it so clearly came off as horrifically flippant and
00:42:41.400
and reckless it was funny i i want uh well i listened to that moment and i i know which
00:42:46.920
conference you're referencing well i either listened to it i can't remember or i listened to
00:42:53.080
you talk about it on some some kind of podcast format but i i heard this story and i thought it
00:42:59.080
was i thought it was really funny also so that's something i i appreciate about you your willingness
00:43:05.240
you take after your dad your willingness to just hey i think i'm gonna ruffle a couple feathers
00:43:09.480
here so um like half the crowd was like clearly delighted yeah this is interesting and the other
00:43:16.680
half was like i mean really scowling up such a funny moment yeah i i bet um okay so i got one
00:43:24.740
more big question uh that i want to take just a moment uh to hear your thoughts on um i know that
00:43:32.060
my wife in particular and other women in our church have have asked you know this question
00:43:38.340
to me saying like, hey, you're going to interview Rachel, ask her this question.
00:43:42.220
So they wanted to hear your thoughts because I think on what have you, your podcast with
00:43:47.820
your sister, Becca, there was an episode or two where from time to time, you guys just
00:43:54.160
discuss the concept of women confessing their sins to one another.
00:44:00.980
What are your thoughts on accountability groups for women and should women regularly confess
00:44:08.340
If not, what's the proper context? How should that be done?
00:44:14.660
Okay. I just think women need to get a lot more Protestant up in there and realize that
1.00
00:44:20.500
we actually have Jesus. Like you don't need to get in a little cubby. I mean, we're not Catholic.
0.88
00:44:27.300
You don't need to get somewhere and confess your sins to a priest and have him pass it on.
00:44:32.180
You need to, you confess your sins to Christ. Now, if there's something that you need accountability
00:44:37.780
on because you actually feel like this is an area where i'm really keep on failing and i need help
00:44:45.140
that is different i'm not trying to say you don't ever need counsel or encouragement or whatever
00:44:50.420
from other people but i would say your first response should be to look for that accountability
0.95
00:44:56.420
from your husband which women frequently do not do because frequently these things are about their
00:45:02.180
husbands it's frequently some it's frequently a already letting someone else into the marriage
00:45:09.060
in a way that they should not be right and and to confess to your husband something is a lot more
00:45:15.460
like jumping off the high dive it's someone who will be there to see if you're like i've used this
0.93
00:45:22.020
example before but when i realized i think women can lie about all kinds of things and when i had
0.98
00:45:27.540
four really little kids I said a lot of the time I was overwhelmed you know I
0.68
00:45:31.920
had twin infants and two toddlers and I would be like I'm just really overwhelmed
00:45:37.720
you know like I'm I'm overwhelmed and at some point I think I just it just the
00:45:42.640
Lord you know the Holy Spirit he's kind he shows us things I just saw it that
00:45:47.160
nobody's gonna challenge me on this you know like if I say I'm overwhelmed who
00:45:51.600
has the nerve to tell me knock it off suck it up be it you know I mean like
00:45:55.920
nobody uh luke was of course very encouraging but he even he wasn't going to argue with me that
00:46:01.840
you're not overwhelmed right there and so i actually needed to confess to him to say you
00:46:07.200
know what i'm not going to say that anymore this is what god has given me to do this is my normal
00:46:12.480
workload now like this is normal and i'm not going to say that anymore well telling him that
00:46:18.640
man i was actually burning my bridge all the way like i i actually removed a i like or it's sort
00:46:26.960
of like if a woman is lying about having a headache when what the real issue is is that
00:46:31.360
she doesn't feel like doing her work well nobody can hold you accountable on that because they
00:46:36.000
can't actually know right but but if you go tell your husband forgive me for lying about having a
00:46:41.840
headache because i just didn't want to deal with bedtime well you've really burned a bridge there
00:46:47.280
like you're at that's actual account yeah you're right and my dad says all the time about this
00:46:53.900
like accountability groups for teen boys where they can all get together and tell each other
00:46:58.220
that they struggled with porn again he's like there's no accountability there try telling your
00:47:02.280
mother you know like go tell someone outside of this temptation set right what you're struggling
00:47:07.920
with and you will get a whole other level of accountability yeah you start you know and i
00:47:13.900
think that that's the thing is that we like the idea of accountability but
00:47:17.560
we're finding the easiest possible places to get it that won't challenges
00:47:22.420
right so that's with your husband don't think you confess your sins to your
00:47:28.180
friends and do a quick little litmus test of why do I want to tell this
00:47:33.460
friends right like what am I act what do I actually think I'm gonna get out of
00:47:37.360
this because if you're telling a friend who is going to slap you upside the
00:47:42.220
face for doing that you know then then you know you're actually looking for
00:47:46.900
accountability you're actually looking for something but if you're wanting to
00:47:50.860
tell a friend who will be like oh my word I totally did the same thing this
00:47:54.100
week I yes I totally understand and I'll pray for you too but with zero actual
00:47:59.440
challenge that's right in that relationship so that would be how I
00:48:03.940
would say it is that you know a litmus test I think you want friends who are
00:48:08.200
like i would call them running partners in the sense that they are also pursuing christ they
00:48:14.040
are also running after christ and that they have as little tolerance for your sin as they do for
00:48:19.400
their own that's that's what we want in friendship so if you reach out to someone like that with a
00:48:27.160
problem right and you're like here it is you know um and i recently just i recently just heard from
00:48:33.800
a woman who was telling me she's in her group of four accountability partners what they're talking
00:48:40.040
about i mean i assume they talk about other things i don't know but the but the thing that she was
00:48:45.480
contacting me about what they're talking about is their own grief and the way they feel about their
00:48:51.640
husband's struggles with porn right right so i'm like that's a hot mess everyone like this is this
00:48:58.440
is a real problem but you're not doing anything to make it better by calling up all your girlfriends
00:49:04.440
right you know like let me call and disrespect my husband to all of you so that you although
00:49:09.400
i mean it's it's a horrible tangle and in those cases i would say just cut line and get out of
00:49:14.440
that yeah yeah that's yeah that's really helpful i completely agree if i could so i completely
00:49:20.120
agree with that super helpful thank you if i could it's not even a pushback it's just an addition
00:49:24.760
i think the one thing that i would add is so you're saying that litmus test like let's you
00:49:28.120
know there's a couple things to to take into account when i'm when i'm contemplating whether
00:49:32.120
or not i should confess something and which person you know who i should confess this to
00:49:37.000
and and you spoke of of that in in the vein of um accountability is this person gonna call me
00:49:43.800
out is this person um if it's really easy to confess to this person it's probably not a
00:49:49.400
person that i need to confess it to because confession hurts it's it's hard and and like
00:49:54.280
like you said, you're burning, you're burning bridges. You're, you're,
00:49:57.160
you're giving up. You're giving, you're, you're,
00:49:59.600
you're calling someone to hold you accountable.
00:50:00.900
The only thing I wanted to add to that is just, um, so when,
00:50:05.100
trying to discern who's the right person to confess to and we're taking into
00:50:08.640
account who will hold me accountable. I think also just, um, another,
00:50:12.720
another litmus test, I just think of Bonhoeffer and, um,
00:50:15.800
and saying that one of the reasons why, you know,
00:50:17.480
we confess our sins one to another, that we might pray for one another,
00:50:20.460
that we might be healed is because at the end of the day, you,
00:50:23.120
started out by saying we confess to Christ. We're Protestant and hearty yes and amen. But I've
00:50:28.620
noticed that my reluctance or my complete negligence to confess to my fellow men sometimes
00:50:37.460
is representative, often is representative of the fact that I'm not even really confessing it to
00:50:42.120
Christ. Meaning that if I'm not comfortable to confess this to anyone, so there's a lot of debate
00:50:48.580
to be had for which men, which women to confess to. But if I'm not willing to confess this to
00:50:54.200
anyone, as far as a fellow man, am I really confessing it to Christ? And so I think sometimes
00:50:59.120
a Protestant goes too far saying, well, I'm confessing to Christ. But my question would be,
00:51:04.220
but if you're not confessing to any, anyone horizontally, you might internally not truly
00:51:10.060
be even confessing it to Christ. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does make sense. But I would,
00:51:15.180
I guess I would bring up something that I think is interesting here. If you're confessing it to
00:51:19.560
Christ, if you know it's a sin, you've confessed it to Christ, then confessing it to other people
00:51:25.960
is actually a testimony to Christ, right? You're like, I have got, this has been put right with
00:51:33.680
Christ. And yeah, you're not trying to keep a super secret, like you're not a sinner or you
00:51:38.620
don't have problems. But that's, I think that what we're supposed to do with one another
00:51:45.540
is that free and easy acknowledgement of our own sinner's relationship to a savior, right?
00:51:52.380
Like it is the fact that yes, I am failing here and I am confessing it and I'm getting
00:51:58.020
it right and Christ is faithful and this is whatever. But I think that many people are
00:52:02.780
trying to use, like they're trying to use their friends as a way of dealing with the
00:52:06.660
sin without ever like there's some kind of catharsis that you said it out loud that you
00:52:11.760
did this and and you're using that as a stand-in for actual confession i i completely agree it's
00:52:17.860
funny it's like on one hand there's like two things that you know you hold in tension on one
00:52:21.860
hand there's a um a tendency a um a leaning towards i'd rather confess to christ than tell
00:52:30.920
any person uh because he's far more merciful than people tend to yeah on the other hand there's like
00:52:38.380
i'd rather confess this to my friends than christ because because christ is so he's on one there's
00:52:46.160
the appeal because he's merciful there's there's the fear because he's also far more holy and you
00:52:52.400
know and so there's this sense of like i don't mind confessing this to this group of friends
00:52:56.140
because they're not holy at all. You know what I mean? Because they won't care.
00:53:01.160
Jesus is the one who already knows about it. He's the one who already knows. And so the reality is
00:53:06.740
telling him is a commitment to breaking ties with the sin. And that's the thing when I was
00:53:18.120
talking about burning bridges, that's the heart of it. Like true confession to Christ is turning
00:53:24.240
your back on your sin you're saying i'm i i'm changing direction here and that's what i think
00:53:31.360
is just really the key about whether or not you should talk to other friends about it is are you
00:53:35.860
actually turning your back on the sin no you're absolutely right when we confess to the omniscient
00:53:40.700
god we're not informing him what we're really doing is who are we surprising right exactly so
00:53:45.800
we're not we're not informing him like we do with our fellow man but what we're really doing is it's
00:53:50.420
simply, it's agreeing with him. I agree with you, Father, and what you say about this, that you call
00:53:56.160
it sin, you call it vile, and I'm agreeing with you, and I am committing to actually changing,
00:54:02.620
to repenting. Okay, so thank you so much, Rachel. I want to give you a moment just to tell people
00:54:08.380
how they can follow you, how they can keep up with what you're doing. Tell us about the Bible
00:54:12.400
reading challenges I told you before we started recording. This episode probably won't air until
00:54:16.980
October, but if you could tell people a little bit about how to follow you, how to keep up with
00:54:21.800
you, if you want to plug a book, tell them about the Bible reading challenge, go ahead and do
00:54:24.700
that right now. Sure. You can find me on Instagram as Rachel Jacobic. I'm on Facebook also, but the
00:54:32.840
Bible reading challenge is where it's at. We do, it's year round. In the summer, we do the New
00:54:38.300
Testament and in the academic year, we do the whole Bible. So if you stick with us any day that
00:54:44.720
you jump in then that day a year later you will have read the new testament twice old testament
00:54:49.460
once and a bunch of epistles and things five or six times um so so jump in by all means and you
00:54:57.800
can find all the details at to the word.com great well thanks again so much rachel and for our
00:55:03.640
listeners if you have not yet become a responder one of our club members um take this opportunity
00:55:10.380
to go ahead and do that because we're going to ask Rachel a couple bonus questions and that'll
00:55:16.420
be exclusive content for our responders. And so if you want to check out the bonus questions and
00:55:22.460
just to whet your appetite, listeners, I'm going to go ahead and say those now. So the first question
00:55:27.840
is, what are some of the distinctions, Rachel, between how you would raise your sons versus how
00:55:32.980
you would raise your daughters? And the second one is, why should Christian women care about beauty
0.93
00:55:38.780
and aesthetics, specifically in the realm of their home?
0.96
00:55:42.420
And how would you respond to a Christian woman
0.73
00:55:54.560
And we encourage you, if you haven't become a responder
00:55:58.700
take this opportunity and go ahead and do that.
00:56:01.180
Thanks again, Rachel, so much for coming on the show today.
00:56:06.720
But real quick, before you go, do us a small favor, take a moment, and leave us a five-star review if you enjoyed the show.
00:56:14.200
This is undoubtedly the best way that you can help us get this biblically faithful content to as many people as possible.