The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - Baptists Continue To Struggle With Christendom w Jared Longshore

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00:00:40 All right, guys, this one's a little bit different. Jared and I were talking offline,

00:00:45 just having a conversation about covenant theology, having a conversation about Presbyterians,

00:00:50 Baptists, and it just was so interesting. I don't even know if it's helpful necessarily,

00:00:56 but it was so interesting that we decided, you know what, we just got to hit record,

00:01:00 see what happens. So this episode is just going to pick up. It's going to feel like it's picking

00:01:04 up in the middle of a conversation because that's precisely what it's doing, picking up in the

00:01:07 middle of a conversation. And I think some of you will find it helpful. Some of you, quite frankly,

00:01:14 will find it confusing. But this is the kind of conversation that Baptists and Presbyterians need

00:01:19 to be having right now. We've got to figure out this covenant theology and either Presbyterians

00:01:26 are right or Baptists are right, but have some work to do. We have some work to do if we're 0.74

00:01:33 going to understand what to do in terms of political theology. That's kind of where we go

00:01:38 at the end of the conversation. Yeah. So it's a confusing one, but it's a good one. It's interesting.

00:01:45 kind of you get to be a fly on the wall for me and Jared just talking. All right. If you're

00:01:50 interested in that, then welcome to another episode of Theology Apply. Mercy Meadows Ranch

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00:04:16 Applying God's word to every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied.

00:04:26 The Baptistic model says the new covenant is to be the regenerate people,

00:04:31 and all the regenerate people make it and the pedo model says well the new covenant

00:04:38 does not only contain the regenerate people it also has some of the bad fish in the net too

00:04:43 but all the regenerate people make it just like in your current model i know that that's not a

00:04:50 hack you don't lose anybody you don't lose a single person you don't lose anybody who's

00:04:54 actually regenerate i i understand that i i get that um but again that goes back to what we were

00:05:00 talking about earlier in terms of the bad fish caught in the net, I don't think... See, I just

00:05:06 think there are more categories. So for you, it's like this net is the new covenant. It's going to

00:05:11 have some good fish and bad fish. Whereas for me and Jesus, I might add, the net is the kingdom.

00:05:16 The kingdom is the actual terminology. And I think it's a world-catching net. So we were talking

00:05:23 earlier for people who are... Because this was too good. This is our offline conversation. I was

00:05:28 like dude we just got to record it because people are going to want to hear this but i i think this

00:05:31 is a world encompassing net you know and as we're both post mill we're both fans of christendom we're

00:05:37 both working towards that end um we're both presbyterians we're both presbyterians only one

00:05:44 of us currently knows it um no but uh but this net is a world encompass that was funny this net

00:05:50 is a world encompassing net and so so what we said earlier was you were like um you were asking

00:05:55 me, well, do I think that the kingdom is synonymous with the invisible church or the

00:06:03 visible church? And I said, neither. And this is where I would agree with Joe Boone, what he wrote

00:06:07 with his Mission of God book, Before Ruler of Kings, but Mission of God. You've got the invisible,

00:06:14 and I did this for people who are watching, if you're listening on the podcast, it won't be

00:06:18 super helpful, but I'll describe it. You got just like a target with three circles, the center

00:06:21 circle the smallest circle invisible church that's those who are truly saved regenerate beyond that

00:06:27 middle circle working out that's visible church beyond that this biggest widest circle that's

00:06:34 kingdom kingdom is bigger not just in the invisible church it's bigger than the visible church meaning

00:06:39 uh meaning that i believe in the final days of christendom well in the final days of christendom

00:06:44 probably everybody's going to church and a member and has been baptized but let's say before those

00:06:48 days. Let's say, well, right now, I think America in the 20th century, maybe back up like 50 years,

00:06:56 is a great example of the kingdom being broader than not just the invisible church, but also the

00:07:01 visible church. That somebody who doesn't go to church at all, has never been baptized, isn't on

00:07:06 any Southern Baptist church roster, that person still is, they're in that net, the kingdom net,

00:07:13 because they're breathing and inhaling Christendom,

00:07:18 whether they recognize it or not.

00:07:19 They're in a justice system that is based on the Christian worldview.

00:07:24 They're experiencing the benefits of produce and all ingenuity

00:07:29 and all these things with capitalism within the Christian worldview. 0.95

00:07:31 So I think the net is big. 0.80

00:07:32 So that's really good, Joe.

00:07:34 But I don't think that those three circles are going to keep you

00:07:36 from the trouble you're in.

00:07:38 Okay.

00:07:39 Because one of them is, you keep saying,

00:07:41 one of them is the visible church and um at least as so the west mission confession of faith says

00:07:49 the visible church is the kingdom of god which seems to be you're basically affirming that by

00:07:55 saying it's the second circle kingdom of god is the second circle no no no i'm saying kingdom of

00:08:01 god god is third circle invisible first visible second kingdom third does the kingdom spread

00:08:07 through all three or is the kingdom like just the third round no no no the kingdom and it is it

00:08:13 encompasses everything okay first circle yeah so you still have this second circle that is both

00:08:18 the visible church and the kingdom of god yes you're coming in that way we were talking earlier

00:08:22 if you if you have an unregenerate um scott anniel tweeted and you were to you tweeted back to him

00:08:28 about the whole christian nationalism thing and you were making the point that um if you have a

00:08:34 unregenerate man in the church. And then you excommunicate them. You were saying, do you have

00:08:39 to say, well, we weren't really a Christian church until we excommunicated them because we had one 0.97

00:08:44 bad apple in the, in the bushel. Right. So, um, and your point is no, you, you, your point would 1.00

00:08:54 be, we were still a Christian church, even though we had one bad fish in the net. Right. I, I, I'm

00:08:58 the head of a Christian family right now. And I have a five-year-old, a three-year-old, a two-year-old

00:09:02 and a six-month-old.

00:09:04 And those kids are holy?

00:09:06 Yes.

00:09:07 1 Corinthians 7?

00:09:08 Yes, and not just because it's a legitimate marriage.

00:09:11 I don't think, like, I love James White.

00:09:13 I would disagree with, in terms of that particular argument, 0.93

00:09:16 because you could, because the whole point is that one of them has to be a Christian. 0.59

00:09:21 So if you're saying, well, this is a legitimate marriage,

00:09:24 the children are born in wedlock, within, you know, an actual marriage covenant,

00:09:29 um then why did why the emphasis the not just emphasis but insistence on one of the parents

00:09:34 um having to be christian because because james white and i we would all agree that you could

00:09:40 have two muslims so long as it's a man and a woman biological man and woman of legal age

00:09:46 that are married um their children would be holy if holy just meant born in wedlock legitimate 0.99

00:09:52 children and not bastards um no holy means more than that uh because because it's yeah 0.98

00:09:59 go ahead so kids are holy yes um i read the bible jared i read the bible i know you do 0.99

00:10:07 i know you do and uh so those little covenant children they little covenant children

00:10:12 well yes and no what which see that's the that's where i struggle which covenant i think part of

00:10:19 the baptist problem the particular baptist problem is it this is what i think i'll say it in a

00:10:24 nutshell i think presbyterians stretch the new covenant i think that's the problem

00:10:28 and baptists think they they pretend as though in this current gospel age uh that there's that

00:10:35 there is no covenant but the new covenant so so baptists behave and they practice their theology

00:10:41 as though it's the implications of there only being one uh covenant in existence in in human

00:10:47 history at this point in human history there's a new covenant that's it um and and i just feel

00:10:52 like no there's a marriage is a covenant of an employee with with a business you can have a

00:10:57 business covenant. That's what a contract is. It's a covenant. Citizenship, national citizen.

00:11:01 I am in a covenant. America is a covenant nation, and I'm a citizen of that covenant nation. I have

00:11:07 certain duties, certain rights, responsibilities, and nations can have a covenant with God. And

00:11:12 America particularly, most certainly has a Christian founding. It was ratified and covenanted

00:11:18 to God. Currently, America as a nation, I believe, it's not that it's no longer in a covenant with

00:11:24 god it is currently in apostasy it is it is breaking a covenant with god but not the new

00:11:29 covenant that's a different covenant so so um in genesis 17 7 god promises swears swears a covenant

00:11:39 to abraham saying i will be god to you and to your children after you in their generations

00:11:44 um and you're a son of a son of abraham child of abraham so has god made the same promise to you

00:11:52 the promise being that my offspring will be that god will be god to you and to your children after

00:11:59 you in their generations okay so first first yes of course my answer is yes so i won't i won't

00:12:06 annoy you and the listener by by uh doing what politicians do so one word answer yes but real

00:12:11 quick let's go back into a god in what sense i i know what he meant but to abraham like it was it

00:12:18 it was a covenantal saving God, a father, God, father, the God, right.

00:12:23 Isn't that what you, not just the net. Cause the net I think is different.

00:12:26 That's, that's a global encompassing kingdom. God. So, so on one hand,

00:12:31 it's like God, God is a God to everyone, right? Like I, you know,

00:12:34 I'll often preach and say, you know, people say like, um, you know,

00:12:37 some have, uh, have made Jesus savior, but few have made him Lord.

00:12:40 I think it's the exact opposite. He's Lord, whether you love him, hate him,

00:12:43 bless him, curse him. He's Lord of all period. Uh, because,

00:12:46 God the Father has crowned him Lord and bestowed upon him that name, Lord, the highest name. So

00:12:52 he's Lord of all because he bought it. It's a blood-bought world. And so he is your Lord,

00:12:57 whether you like it or not, but he may not be your Savior. So I would say Jesus is actually

00:13:01 Lord of all, Savior of some. Now, with that God being a God, I think in that context of Genesis

00:13:07 15, it's a salvific God. It's a father adoption God. Now, do I believe that that same promise is

00:13:12 mind for my posterity, my children, that God will be not just Lord as Christ is Lord of all kingdom

00:13:20 language, but Father God, salvific new covenant language. Yeah, I believe that one too for my

00:13:27 children, not all children, but my children. And I have a reason for that because unconditional

00:13:31 election, I don't think is arbitrary election. God's predestinated ends of who he saves are

00:13:37 bought about by his predestinated means. And if God wanted my kids to be pagans in terms of means,

00:13:43 he would have given them to my pagan neighbor, but he gave them to me. And I believe his reason 0.85

00:13:48 for that. I can't get, he doesn't owe me this, but I believe his reason for giving these children to

00:13:52 me is so that they would be washed in the word. They would be immersed, but immersed in gospel

00:14:00 preaching in the home, in the church, in every way. And I don't think that God gave them to me

00:14:06 so that they'd be immersed in those means of grace in order to to prove that his means of

00:14:12 grace are impotent but rather to the praise of his glorious grace by proving that his means work

00:14:17 and when so the covenant that god made to abraham to be god to you and two children after you

00:14:26 is a covenant that god has made also to you yes to be god to you and to your children after you

00:14:32 when he gave it to Abraham,

00:14:34 he gave a sign with it.

00:14:37 Mm-hmm.

00:14:38 Yep.

00:14:39 Circumcision.

00:14:40 That's right.

00:14:41 The sign of that very covenant promise.

00:14:44 Mm-hmm.

00:14:46 So why not give the sign?

00:14:49 I do.

00:14:50 The difference is,

00:14:52 and again, of course, I could be wrong,

00:14:54 and so could you, just for the record.

00:14:56 Now that we're recording,

00:14:57 I'll be a little stronger 0.60

00:14:59 so that my Reformed Baptists

00:15:00 who are listening to me...

00:15:02 Now that you're recording, he's going to be strong.

00:15:04 He's strong now.

00:15:05 Well, see, that's the thing.

00:15:06 I'm the opposite of, it's like Paul, right?

00:15:09 In person, he's a little account, you know, but in his letters, that's the thing.

00:15:13 When I'm preaching.

00:15:14 You were strong before.

00:15:14 Let the reader understand.

00:15:15 Okay.

00:15:16 He was super strong before.

00:15:17 I was nice before.

00:15:19 I'm actually kinder in person than I am on the internet.

00:15:22 But all that being said, oh, man, I threw myself off.

00:15:27 Say your question one more time.

00:15:28 I said, why does Abraham Kids get the sign but not yours?

00:15:31 Oh, so I think I could be wrong. You could be wrong. That's what I was saying. I think it's

00:15:35 timing. Of course, my kids are going to get the sign. Of course. And that's where I would differ

00:15:40 from Baptist again, is I actually do believe that baptism is a sign and seal of the covenant. I do. 0.99

00:15:48 And Baptists don't really like that language. And I'm totally fine with using the term sacrament. 0.98

00:15:52 Ordinance, schmordenance, it's a sacrament. It is holy. And so all that being said,

00:15:57 my kids are going to get this sign of the new covenant. This is what I would say in a nutshell,

00:16:03 and then you can pick it apart. I would say in the old covenant, the sign follows natural birth

00:16:10 and the new covenant, the sign follows new birth, spiritual birth. So my kids are going to get the

00:16:16 sign and they're going to get it as best I can. Now I understand that God alone sees the heart

00:16:20 and I don't have regeneration goggles and Baptists get this wrong all the time, inevitably.

00:16:24 and we got to you know we can't pretend like you know everyone in our church is regenerate because

00:16:30 they're not baptists miss it on baptism just as much as presbyterians do in terms of who we

00:16:36 baptize but my point is we do our best we're doing our due diligence so i'm going to look at my

00:16:40 children i'm going to do my best discerning as they're as a covenant head of my family

00:16:45 and i'm going to apply the sign of baptism the moment that they're regenerate is best i can

00:16:53 you know and i know i'll fail in that and and honestly a baptist who baptizes people on a

00:16:57 credible profession of faith will probably baptize in the final analysis more apostates than a

00:17:03 presbyterian who baptizes 10 children in one household but the parents um he knows are are

00:17:09 going to disciple the heck out of those children um you've got a probably a statistical better

00:17:14 chance of those 10 children growing up and actually being regenerate than 10 adults coming

00:17:20 and making a theologically sound profession of faith.

00:17:24 Because God works, God's ends come about through his means.

00:17:28 And unconditional election is truly unconditional, but it is not arbitrary.

00:17:34 Well, I was just emailing with a guy last night who was a Baptist.

00:17:40 And it's just, I find the covenant absolutely fascinating.

00:17:45 And I don't believe it's a peculiar niche doctrine.

00:17:52 I really do think it has explanatory power for so much.

00:17:58 Gerhardus Voss talks this way.

00:18:01 It's like covenant nurture.

00:18:02 We are nurtured in the covenant.

00:18:04 It helps us to understand the church is this Mother Kirk stuff.

00:18:08 The Jerusalem, which is above, is our mother, and she's mother of us all.

00:18:14 she's free and mother of us all um there's just so many implications for this for this particular

00:18:20 covenant and it's so fascinating to talk about it right now because of the kind of um conversation

00:18:26 that's going on regarding our nation how we're gonna how we're gonna um shape culture how we're

00:18:32 going to deal with civil government but you agree that these are different covenants like you're

00:18:38 you're not saying that like so you're saying we need this covenantal language and and paradigm

00:18:43 framework to make sense theological sense of so many different things um in our culture in our

00:18:51 society in our nation in our world and i agree but they're not all the new covenant there are

00:18:56 more than one covenant like we're not saying um like like the part of the problem that baptist

00:19:03 baptists are just losing their minds right now is because like well we're not a christian nation we

00:19:07 can't be a you can't uh there's basically they're saying there's only one thing in all the universe

00:19:12 that can be a Christian and it's an individual person who's regenerate. You can't have a Christian 0.95

00:19:17 business, can't even have a Christian family if, you know, if the kids are little and haven't been 0.96

00:19:21 regenerate yet, or if one of the older kids, you know, adult son apostatizes or what, you know,

00:19:25 John Piper currently does not, he does not have a Christian family because of his son, Abraham

00:19:31 Piper. That's just stupid. That's just, that's asinine. And so like, I think Baptists need to 1.00

00:19:37 knock that out, but I don't think that you have to say that that's all, there are more than one 0.58

00:19:42 covenant there are national covenants there are family covenants there are business covenants

00:19:47 there are um i think there are local visible church covenants and there is also the new covenant

00:19:52 pick that up yeah yeah well i think the the whole deal about what can you call a christian

00:20:00 is one of the downstream conversations from talking about covenant theology and what is

00:20:06 the covenant of grace what's the nature of the covenant of grace of course that paedo scheme

00:20:10 One Covenant, Two Administrations, Old and New, claims that you actually have a sworn oath from God,

00:20:18 our Heavenly Father, to man on earth of grace in and by Jesus Christ in the Old Testament,

00:20:25 that you have saints that were saved back there by grace through faith in Christ, which all affirm.

00:20:32 But the Pato idea is that that salvation was in and through covenant.

00:20:40 in and through the covenant of grace that was actually inaugurated, that was actually established.

00:20:46 And you know, for a long time.

00:20:47 And Genesis 15 with Abraham, right?

00:20:49 Genesis 15, I would take it all the way back to immediately after the fall with Adam,

00:20:55 such that there's never been people saved outside of an inaugurated covenant of grace.

00:21:04 And Herman Wittsius signals this in his economy of the covenants.

00:21:08 What did he say about the clothing of Adam and Eve?

00:21:14 You have blood laid, which is bond and blood, sovereignly hamstered.

00:21:20 Cutting covenant.

00:21:21 You have cutting covenant.

00:21:23 You have the promise, which everybody says Genesis 3.15 is the first enunciation of the promise.

00:21:29 And this is where I think the 1689ers have a really – this is where the 1689 stuff was interesting to me.

00:21:35 Of course, they claim that the covenant of grace is revealed in the Old Testament, inaugurated in the New.

00:21:40 And the paedos want to say, no, no, no, it was actually established in the Old.

00:21:46 But if you do stop at Abraham, then you could technically hold to that 1689 scheme from Adam to Abraham, right?

00:21:54 Where you have people saved by promise, not by the covenant of grace.

00:22:00 At any rate, Witsius speaks this way.

00:22:02 Owen actually speaks this way.

00:22:04 So there's a lot of conversation with Owen about the Mosaic Covenant, because he did stand out on the Mosaic Covenant from the standard Pato position.

00:22:12 Owen speaks what way?

00:22:14 He would say like you, starting with Adam, or what?

00:22:17 Yeah, so Owen says, let's see, it was Cain.

00:22:25 Cain was in the church.

00:22:27 In the visible church.

00:22:28 He was the first apostate.

00:22:30 He was the first apostate, and that's a further excommunication.

00:22:32 communication. So his further exile is a proto-excommunication. John Ball, who is kind of

00:22:40 the chief covenant theologian of Westminster, he did not go to Westminster, but was highly respected

00:22:44 by those who did, and those who did signed off on his covenant theology that was published

00:22:49 in and around the time of the Westminster Assembly, speaks that way, that Cain was in,

00:22:55 right that um that this is a further exile so you actually have this um this historic

00:23:03 established people via covenant the covenant of grace and so the covenant of grace is not merely

00:23:10 um like god the father swearing an oath to individuals as if you were having god up here

00:23:16 all the individuals down here and you have a bunch of lines like right yeah no no there's a federal

00:23:22 go ahead he and he it's like as if christ had to die like a thousand times to get a thousand

00:23:27 christians in no he dies once for his bride um this one bride one bread this whole all of our

00:23:35 corporate understanding is kind of being recovered in our american individualism which in many ways

00:23:41 is a wonderful thing we're adding to that this corporate mindset what is what is our you know

00:23:47 if we don't like the intersectional victim identities how about a covenantal identity

00:23:51 with all of the saints but as soon as you start to think that way you got to say well who's in

00:23:54 who's out and is this a real thing or are we just kind of is it an all-mill scheme where like up

00:24:00 here it's real like the millennium's up here but not down here on earth and i think that's similar

00:24:04 thinking with the covenant of grace like up here in heaven but it really wasn't on earth in the

00:24:08 old testament one but that's rejected through covenant through the paedo scheme once no god

00:24:13 actually covenants and swear when the cutting and the the blood is actually constituting an

00:24:20 organized people. It's constituting a real thing, an objective covenant, a thing over into which God

00:24:27 is saying, I'm your God and you are my people. And then, of course, there are people that fall

00:24:32 out of that. They're covenant breakers. But you have this covenant people all the way throughout

00:24:38 the world. And I think this is essentially what Augustine was talking about. When you talk about

00:24:41 the city of God, and it's within the city of man, right? That's all covenant language. That's

00:24:49 But God has cut a covenant, and in doing so, he established his people.

00:24:53 He established an actual group.

00:24:54 So I use the illustration in my book. 0.53

00:24:57 So I wrote a book called The Case for the Christian Family, Covenantal Solution to the Dissolving American Family.

00:25:02 And in that, I speak of the covenant.

00:25:04 Well, let's start with administration.

00:25:07 You always hear this language of one covenant, two administrations.

00:25:09 But I don't think people really think about it, what you're talking about.

00:25:12 The word administration can sound like getting thing A to individual B.

00:25:17 like um and i got this from sam renahan actually this is very helpful who's a 1689 federalist

00:25:22 brilliant brilliant guy and done great work um getting thing a to individual b as in i administer

00:25:29 lotion i administer lotion to my daughter's knee but that's not what the theologians are talking

00:25:34 about when they're saying administration they mean something more akin to um the washington or the

00:25:40 jefferson administration right which has clear members you're either you know there's the biden

00:25:47 administration now you and i are not a part of that biden administration praise be to the lord

00:25:50 and but but we know that you're a card-carrying member of this or you're not that's the idea of

00:25:56 administration so you have this this constituted organized people this entity that is signed and

00:26:01 and marked out on earth um that's what we mean by old administration and new administration

00:26:08 thus and that therefore you have substance and that god has always had this people

00:26:15 Israel was a kingdom of priests, and we are still a kingdom of priests.

00:26:19 But then how would you, what verbiage would you use for that, you know, in terms of the way that you're defining administration?

00:26:25 That makes sense to me.

00:26:26 But then it's like, okay, so the old administration had Abraham as its head, and then the new administration has Christ?

00:26:34 So, I believe that Christ was the mediator of the old covenant.

00:26:39 He has to be.

00:26:40 He's the only mediator.

00:26:43 He's the only savior.

00:26:43 Yeah. Yeah. Which means it's just another thing that you say that shows everybody that you're not a good Baptist. I don't want you to say that. Because the Baptist position, 1689 position at least, would be that it was instituted by angels, as Galatians says, and therefore that Christ is not the mediator of this.

00:27:05 But I think what distinguishes his mediatorial work is it's the pre-incarnate Christ who is mediator of that old covenant.

00:27:14 What makes the new covenant better is that this is the second Adam.

00:27:17 This is the virgin born, crucified, buried, risen, ascended Christ who is now mediating.

00:27:21 The one same covenant, because it doesn't pay to ideas, is one covenant.

00:27:25 Well, what's better about it?

00:27:27 It's like, well, it has a God-man as the mediator, right?

00:27:31 That's where the potency, the new covenant is far better.

00:27:39 Same in substance, far better in its potency.

00:27:43 Because Christ has risen, because he's taken on flesh, lived, died, risen, and ascended.

00:27:50 Right?

00:27:50 Because I get that.

00:27:51 Like, I mean, Old Testament saints were regenerate.

00:27:54 Old Testament saints also, I believe, were Holy Spirit indwelt.

00:27:58 So they were both regenerate and they had the Holy Spirit.

00:28:01 But the Holy Spirit, one of his ministries is to exude to us here on this side of the

00:28:05 cross, New Testament saints, he exudes within us the spirit of the resurrected Christ, which

00:28:11 there was no resurrected Christ.

00:28:13 So the spirit indwelled David.

00:28:15 David had the spirit, which is why he prays, do not take your spirit from me.

00:28:19 In Psalm 51, he had the spirit, but the spirit was not, as Paul uses them interchangeably

00:28:26 in the New Testament, he says the spirit, and then he'll say the spirit of Christ, as

00:28:31 And we can, by necessary inference, or at least by reasonable implication, we can see the spirit of the risen Christ.

00:28:38 Well, David did not have the spirit that is the spirit of the risen Christ.

00:28:43 Yeah, go ahead.

00:28:45 Yeah, no, you're exactly right.

00:28:47 And so seeing that, that's the potency of the new covenant, and that's the potency of this Pentecost and all of that.

00:28:52 You're dead right, the spirit of the risen Christ.

00:28:54 And I'd add to this administration idea.

00:28:56 This is what really, this was a revelation.

00:29:00 is i've used the illustration of an ice cream shop serving up ice cream so i've heard you i've

00:29:09 heard you do this go ahead i've done this have you heard this yeah go ahead did it make you want

00:29:14 did it make you like hunger for some baskin robbins when i did it uh yeah yeah probably

00:29:20 yearning and actually it also made me think of vody bacham back in the day where he would talk

00:29:24 about providence and sovereignty and your favorite flavor of ice cream and your taste buds you didn't

00:29:29 choose them and blah blah blah anyways did he do that yeah a lot of theologians like ice cream

00:29:33 maybe i'll stick with it because it's kind of like subliminal voting messages coming through

00:29:38 you know um so the covenant administration back to the washington jefferson administration

00:29:43 now liken that idea of a clearly identified group and organized people and organized entity

00:29:49 liken that to an ice cream shop um when a man calls upon the name of the lord he enters into

00:29:55 the ice cream shop. He trusts the Lord Jesus Christ. He eats the ice cream by faith, right?

00:30:00 Trust Christ. That guy's going to heaven. But when he calls upon the name of the Lord,

00:30:05 he brings his whole family into the ice cream shop. The whole family comes in. The banner over

00:30:10 the ice cream shop is, I am your God and you are my people. This is the administration. This is

00:30:15 the covenant idea. You are all a part of this body. And this is where we have language of the

00:30:23 kingdom of god is the net which we've already talked about and are there bad fish in there yeah

00:30:27 are there people in the ice cream shop that are not partaking of the ice cream yes there are

00:30:31 um ought they to be yes all of that um and then you have the old ice cream shop that is

00:30:40 renovated so the new covenant is a renovation a glorious renovation of this one same ice cream

00:30:47 shop is the one that's another way to talk about one covenant two administrations it's the same

00:30:51 ice cream shop but it was it was closed for three days give or take you know and and then was uh

00:30:59 and then a grand reopening bigger and better okay but in what way is what way is it better

00:31:05 this renovated ice cream shop because we've said the spirit of the risen christ but this is what

00:31:10 i wanted to ask for our listener because this is what they're going to be asking this is what i'm

00:31:13 asking the spirit of the risen christ yes and amen that's better um but how what does it what

00:31:19 what does it do because i want to say okay one of the things that it does is it keeps you

00:31:24 you know so i feel like that's a nice benefit yeah so um let me let me say something more about

00:31:33 where i was going and then i'm gonna answer your question all right so um i think i think a lot of

00:31:37 american evangelicals particularly um don't have an ice cream shop they just think ice cream stand

00:31:45 in the street serving up ice cream right billy graham style right trust them you're right call

00:31:50 upon the name of the lord be safe and that's what's so beautiful about it that's why i love it to

00:31:53 pieces because it's got the ice cream and it's just it's just you individual trust believe and

00:32:00 all of that's true and that's kind of my point in the pato scheme you have you still have the ice

00:32:05 cream you have the same message you're serving it up right but you just have this shop idea that i

00:32:10 would say is somewhat like an apples of gold in settings of silver, right? We both have the apple

00:32:15 of gold, but this covenant idea is like the setting of silver in which the apple of gold is.

00:32:22 What's better about the new, one of the things about the breakability of it,

00:32:26 I believe that you could walk out, the person that had not eaten the ice cream

00:32:33 in the old administration could walk out, right? Could walk out of the ice cream shop.

00:32:40 which would be and for the record that'd be about nine 98 of them walked out without eating ice

00:32:47 cream under the old administration well i haven't ran all the math but a lot of a lot of people

00:32:52 walked out a lot of that's yeah and that's what's better about the new is that not as many people

00:32:57 are going to walk out i'd like to say none of them walk out you know what you mean that doesn't

00:33:01 that sound great uh yeah it sounds great you know you feel like that's just like a democrat thing

00:33:05 right they got great solutions but but but no way to actually free ice cream for everyone

00:33:10 you know like i'm not i'm not you're not gonna call you're not gonna fall for that position i

00:33:15 held for uh 37 years of my life a democratic position i'm not gonna do that okay um all right

00:33:20 but um so john ball gives like seven or eight um points here on the superiority of the new

00:33:30 administration what's better about this renovation and i think there's just many

00:33:35 ways to talk about it one is i think the chief one is that it has the virgin born son of god

00:33:42 crucified risen buried ascended into heaven sat down at the right hand of the father christ i

00:33:48 mean that's great that's huge i mean that's just settle off everybody knows it's better right

00:33:52 the lord jesus came and visited this place visited this earth uh came here walked here

00:33:58 died rose again and when he ascended into heaven um you know we are seated with christ in the

00:34:04 heavenly places um moses and elijah were talking to him about his departure you know and it's

00:34:11 interesting that the firmament oh this is a little bit of sign up but it's super cool like firmament

00:34:15 um on day two is created and says it divides the waters above and the waters below and then when

00:34:21 john goes to heaven he sees in in heaven he sees a sea crystal sea and jesus's exodus would be

00:34:28 through the sea through the firmament into the temple made without hands okay so he enters into

00:34:34 the true tent not made with hands that the earthly tabernacle was modeled after and we are now that

00:34:42 earthly tabernacle but our head is in heaven that's a far more potent ice cream shop that's a far

00:34:48 that's an indestructible ice cream shop which is where i think the breakability of the covenant

00:34:54 comes in i think the betterness of the new covenant is not that it can't be broken by an

00:35:03 individual like an individual can't walk out of the shop no an individual can still walk out of

00:35:08 the shop not as many as the old but the new covenant this new renovated ice cream shop will

00:35:14 never be renovated again it will never have that three-day closure again it will never it will

00:35:19 never have the um the romans are never marching in in 80 70 to destroy this thing this new covenant

00:35:27 is what it's the new covenant itself as an ice cream shop that cannot be broken it's not it's

00:35:33 not going to get termites that's the idea and the knowledge of the earth is lord is going to cover

00:35:38 the earth as the waters cover the sea this thing is going to grow so you got to add to the metaphor

00:35:42 this this new covenant ice cream shop is going to grow and fill the earth and it's an indestructible

00:35:46 covenant that's where the indestructibility comes in right now that yeah i i get it i think that's

00:35:53 a good analogy. Um, but I don't, I don't really, it's kind of like visiting, you know, some of the

00:36:01 glorious cathedrals. I remember going to Germany with my dad when I was in high school and you

00:36:07 visit some of these places and you know, but they're empty and it's like, man, this is glorious.

00:36:11 This is, I mean, this is Christendom once upon a time and by God's grace, you know, we'll get it

00:36:16 back. But it's empty. And I don't want just a better ice cream shop. And I don't want better

00:36:26 ice cream because I know that that doesn't do. Ice cream's good. Ice cream's ice cream. And

00:36:30 there's always been good ice cream all the way since the promise in the garden right after sin

00:36:36 entered the world to crush the head of the serpent. So it's been the same ice cream and

00:36:42 it's always been good ice cream. And there was, you know, a shanty ice cream shop and you're

00:36:47 saying, and now there's a great ice cream shop and it's one that'll never need to be

00:36:50 redone, but it is going to grow and fill the whole earth. And so I'm down with all that,

00:36:58 but I don't want it just to be this big ice cream shop. I want it also, and it's not going

00:37:01 to be better ice cream, but I want it to, I want it to be, I want the owner of this ice cream shop

00:37:07 to be kind of like Nacho Libre, like his sidekick, where he just doesn't give you a choice. He's

00:37:11 just like baptize like and i want that owner to be wearing this apron and holding like double

00:37:17 fisting you know like dual wielding two ice cream cones in each hand and everyone in the shop whether

00:37:23 they like it or not he's gonna he's gonna open their mouth he's gonna put that ice cream on

00:37:27 their tongue um and he's like you will like ice full like roman catholic vestments and like lord

00:37:32 supper on the tongue no but it's just like because ice cream's awesome the only people who don't like

00:37:36 ice cream are people who have not had it and he knows that and he's a good ice cream shop uh and

00:37:40 so he won't leave it to their choice he's just like i'm gonna give you some ice cream and and

00:37:44 then everybody who tastes the ice cream sticks with the ice cream because ice cream is delicious

00:37:48 like that no one falls out because i i feel like yeah but here's the thing joel but here's the

00:37:55 thing the scheme you're talking what you're really maintaining and keeping that the paydough scheme

00:38:00 keeps is that everybody who eats the ice cream is in and always in it will never be gone that's the

00:38:08 point you're making pastorally and it's like it's the right sentiment it's the right love and it's

00:38:13 all true and it's true in both schemes i think the trouble is like you're wanting a ice you're

00:38:19 wanting a new covenant ice cream shop and i think what you end up with practically is you don't end

00:38:23 up with an ice cream shop you don't actually have an earthly organized entity of which you're a part

00:38:29 and this is back to your scott anniel tweet where you you know he was saying not every not every

00:38:35 citizen in the nation is going to be a christian therefore you can't have christian nations and

00:38:39 you're saying hold on that doesn't sound right because you have unbelievers in your church 0.74

00:38:44 and the question is you don't have a christian church right but the thing that's really underneath

00:38:50 that is is the guy sitting at table with you at the lord's supper who is a baptized christian

00:38:56 but if you could see into his heart and realize he's unregenerate the question is is he genuinely

00:39:02 in the covenant with you? Is he in this covenant of grace? Is he in the visible church? Is he in

00:39:10 that thing? Yes to the second. You asked two questions. Yes to the second, no to the first.

00:39:17 Is he really in this covenant with me? No. Is he in the visible church? Yes. And that is a covenant.

00:39:23 It's just not the new covenant. That's where I keep coming back to. We've got to have more than

00:39:27 one covenant that the new covenant is for the invisible church uh the kingdom of god is much

00:39:32 more broad than than the invisible church the visible church is is that is that new covenant

00:39:37 you're talking about that is just for the invisible church is it uh an organized entity

00:39:43 with on earth with that has signs and seals or is it uh like an effectual calling of god to an

00:39:51 individual that keeps him it's definitely an effectual call that keeps him yeah and the

00:40:08 paydos have that too they just don't call it the new covenant yeah they call it the decretal elect

00:40:13 like a like a covenant within the covenant it's like there's the new covenant and then there's

00:40:17 right or factual calling and the problem is yeah and you're dead right and that's that's true in

00:40:22 both kratos and patos have that calvinist kratos and patos have that idea that keep that keeping

00:40:28 that you're calling the new covenant that it keeps them we have that but the if you end if you went

00:40:35 the other route and said well yeah that new covenant that i'm talking about that keeps people

00:40:39 really is this organized entity then what you have is you have a church within a church you

00:40:43 but an actual like one with visible signs so then you're like but we have signs and seals for the

00:40:48 visible right the excommunicated guy really was a part of but then there's this actual other

00:40:54 organized entity within that organized entity that has its own signs and seals and right there's no

00:41:01 there's no way because you couldn't you couldn't do that you'd have to be omniscient you'd have to

00:41:05 have election goggles you'd have you know like you i mean that's like an illuminati you know

00:41:10 secret back room club that like, so of all the best that we got for organizing in terms of signs

00:41:16 and seals, sacraments, gathering membership, um, the, the best chance we've got for any,

00:41:23 you know, institution, the, the institution, institutionalized church, the visible church,

00:41:29 local churches, and they can partner in larger ways. They can be, you know, they can be present,

00:41:33 you know, have presbyteries and denominations and networks like that. But that's what we have. We

00:41:37 have this this big honking thing that's a mess right now with all these divisions and all these

00:41:43 fractures and you know but this this visible thing and it's a but it's a real thing it's a messy

00:41:48 thing it's it's it's wrong in a lot of ways but it is a legitimate thing it's a and it's legitimate

00:41:53 in the sight of god it's legitimate from the scripture and it should be legitimate in our in

00:41:57 our in our eyes um but i think it's it's but i don't think that that is it's just these circles

00:42:05 I just that the visible church I don't think is the new covenant it's it's invisible church that's

00:42:10 new covenant synonymous invisible church new covenant then visible church what's up that's

00:42:16 the effectual called right and that's the root that's why don't you disagree with me I know you

00:42:21 want to keep call it you keep calling it the new covenant and I'm asking you what is it because

00:42:25 is a covenant like a solemn oath of God to those people that organizes them into a

00:42:31 into an entity, into a little ice cream shop within an ice cream shop.

00:42:36 You don't seem to like that idea.

00:42:38 And I like that you don't like it.

00:42:40 Yeah.

00:42:41 Well, the New Covenant, I believe baptism and the Lord's Supper

00:42:44 are sacraments belonging to the New Covenant.

00:42:46 So those are the signs and seals.

00:42:48 And we give those to the visible.

00:42:50 That goes to the visible.

00:42:50 I know.

00:42:51 We give those to the visible church.

00:42:52 But we give them to the visible church,

00:42:55 recognizing that not everyone who is a member of the visible church

00:42:58 is a member of the new covenant invisible church but we're doing we do the best we can

00:43:08 you know in the same way that but you just said the new covenant signs and seals are baptism

00:43:15 and the lord's supper visible church is our best bet it's our it's our we've got we've got to do

00:43:22 something we've got to give we've got to baptize someone we've got to give the lord's supper to

00:43:26 someone but it sounds like you're saying the new covenant links up with the visible church not this

00:43:30 no no no i'm saying the invisible it's here's the invisible but we give the sacraments to the

00:43:36 visible right because we know the sacraments of the new covenant because the because the visible

00:43:40 we know we know that the invisible church members will be are are in this visible church they'll be

00:43:46 present there and you know what i mean so it's it's where's the best place to go we're not going

00:43:52 to go around to people's houses we're not going to do it at uh the fourth of july party we're not

00:43:56 you know like what's where's the best context on earth to show up and and to administer the supper

00:44:03 the visible church that's the that's that's the place to do it because that's where

00:44:08 the people of god are supposed to be that's the one place where we're guaranteed that they're

00:44:12 going to be you know and so we do it there but we know that that they're going to be there

00:44:17 some other people can be there yeah it's not just the place where we administer the new covenant

00:44:23 sacraments the new covenant sacraments are new covenant sacraments they're the the cup is the

00:44:32 blood of the new covenant and it's given to the visible church it's the cup of the new covenant

00:44:40 Jesus mediates the new covenant

00:44:48 by his blood

00:44:49 right would you agree with that statement

00:44:51 Jesus mediates yes

00:44:53 he's the mediator of the new covenant

00:44:55 it's a better covenant

00:44:57 because it has a better mediator

00:44:59 now we're saying to be fair

00:45:01 to pull back on our earlier conversation

00:45:03 that Christ has always been the mediator

00:45:04 but

00:45:06 the incarnate

00:45:09 risen Christ

00:45:10 and ascended Christ at the right hand of the Father interceding on our behalf,

00:45:15 that sounds weird saying that's a better Christ,

00:45:18 but it's the same Christ, but in a better state,

00:45:21 post-incarnation, resurrection, ascension.

00:45:24 And so in that sense, better mediator, better covenant.

00:45:28 But he mediates this covenant by his blood.

00:45:31 Right, and therefore you don't want anybody walking out of it.

00:45:34 Yeah, well, and also just, I like the old-timey statement

00:45:40 like not a single

00:45:42 drop of Christ's blood will ever be

00:45:44 found in hell. For the

00:45:46 paedo-baptists, it kind of will. You know what I mean? 0.99

00:45:48 It's kind of like that blood of Christ.

00:45:50 We're getting a little loosey-goosey with it. It's splashing over

00:45:52 the rim. And there's going to be

00:45:54 a decent amount of Christ's blood, you know,

00:45:56 spilled in hell. This is where John Ball

00:45:58 is going to be great.

00:45:59 I would encourage anybody that wants to go deeper on this.

00:46:02 You got to go to John Ball. Spell his last

00:46:04 name. Can you do that? B-A-L-L.

00:46:07 Like ball. Like baseball.

00:46:08 John Ball.

00:46:09 So, because he goes, well, one of the places he would go, 2 Peter 2, 2 Peter 2, 1 through, well, just verse 1 of 2 Peter chapter 2.

00:46:20 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

00:46:35 I mean, if they brought in damnable heresies and they're going to be swiftly destroyed, these guys are going to hell.

00:46:43 But the Lord bought them.

00:46:46 And Baal is actually, he deals with the atonement in his work on the covenant. 0.72

00:46:51 Like after he goes through the whole covenant scheme, he goes to atonement.

00:46:54 And it was really helpful.

00:46:56 He talks a little bit about darts, sufficient, efficient stuff, but then pivots to talk about what he's really focusing on,

00:47:03 Which is, he says, look, he says it's totally wrong to say Jesus bought everybody in the world.

00:47:11 We reject that entirely.

00:47:13 But he essentially says it's not wrong to say Jesus bought some people, these, who are going to go to hell.

00:47:19 Now, what you have to immediately say is this was not, the atonement was not purchasing them unto heaven.

00:47:26 That's not the particular buying that he was doing for these covenant people.

00:47:32 So these were men who were in covenant, who were in the covenant of grace,

00:47:36 who trampled underfoot the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified,

00:47:42 as we've already talked about before in Hebrews.

00:47:44 You have these people that they were actually sanctified by the blood of the covenant,

00:47:49 and then they trample over that.

00:47:53 So you just go there and say, yeah.

00:47:55 But the blood of Christ always accomplishes all that it's intended to accomplish.

00:48:03 So a definite atonement is still absolutely maintained because there are there are the elect and those people are purchased by Christ in a way, in a in a distinct way that these men here in Second Peter, chapter two, verse one, were not.

00:48:22 Yeah, I'm trying to remember what Sproul said on it.

00:48:25 Which won't necessarily help my case, considering he's a Presbyterian.

00:48:28 But I think he said something like, you know, that it's, you know, the master who bought them.

00:48:33 Like part of the first question that that begs is bought them.

00:48:36 We know who the master is.

00:48:37 It's Jesus.

00:48:38 And he bought them.

00:48:39 And that's a serious claim.

00:48:40 But the first question it begs is bought them with what?

00:48:43 And it can't be blood, right?

00:48:46 Like I want to keep that second Peter reference separate from the blood of the covenant.

00:48:50 Because you got to deal with blood there in Hebrews 10, the blood of the covenant.

00:48:55 by which they were sanctifying, that they trampled underfoot. So in Hebrews 10, you do need to deal

00:49:00 with that. But you don't necessarily have to deal with blood in 2 Peter. But you do have,

00:49:06 I think what Sproul said was that you have servants in, it's his house. He bought the

00:49:11 whole house. And he bought everybody in the house. And he's got servants in this house that are

00:49:17 ministering. And in that sense, they belong to the master, but they're wicked servants. 0.96

00:49:21 but but they weren't bought by his blood in terms of atonement forgiveness of sin

00:49:26 but go ahead but they were bought just simply by not not by him as savior but by him as lord

00:49:35 right the jesus is lord of all savior of some like we said earlier and so in that sense like

00:49:40 they are bought they're owned by the master because he owns the cattle on a thousand hills

00:49:44 but he didn't die for cows you know what i mean like yeah i mean this is a this picking up on this

00:49:52 idea of a house the servants in the house um i think that's a very helpful um idea it's like

00:50:01 the ice cream shop yep right it is and you have these you have these servants who are in the house

00:50:05 like moses like moses just like moses was um a servant in the house of god now we have christ

00:50:12 So you have this son is better than a servant. Yeah. But that house, even when it comes to this is where I think the fractured evangelicalism can be understood because of an anemic covenant theology, because the covenant theology that we've established is ice cream shop.

00:50:31 Now call it the house of God or the visible church or the kingdom of God, your second circle.

00:50:37 You now have ministers, ordained ministers in that house.

00:50:42 And they're all ministers in the same house.

00:50:46 Right now, you as a pastor of a particular church in Texas and me as a pastor of a particular church in Idaho, we have the greatest responsibility to our local flock, far out seeds, anything else.

00:50:58 But there's some sense that we are actually connected as ministers in the same house, right?

00:51:05 We're not just ministers in the invisible church together.

00:51:10 And it's not like this invisible, we have the invisible church where we're kind of ministers, and then we have a particular church that's where we're ministers.

00:51:17 No, there's actually some kind of visible church, some level of responsibility.

00:51:23 Again, far less than the particular, but there's an actual unity among even the ministers and, of course, then the people.

00:51:31 They feel that.

00:51:32 It's not just like I'm really with my people at my particular church, and then I'm with everyone in the invisible.

00:51:40 No, there's something about the visible, which is very covenantal, this idea of a house, of which even these, like you say, these men in 2 Peter 3 or 2 Peter 2 were as well.

00:51:52 Yeah.

00:51:53 So, we can land the plane.

00:51:56 I feel like everybody's probably more confused now.

00:51:59 I think we're saying some helpful things, you know, but I know that, I don't know.

00:52:05 Covenant theology, people should be, this is, first of all, not all the laity, you just even have time.

00:52:12 Everyone's got a responsibility to try to dig into this.

00:52:15 But covenant is a big deal.

00:52:16 I would say, if people want to know more about what I think, they could read the case for the Christian family through Canon Press.

00:52:23 I provide a definition of the covenant of grace, support that biblically.

00:52:28 People can decide if they agree or they disagree, give an illustration about the covenant of grace, which I've given here.

00:52:32 But then I thread that out through what that means for covenant marriage, what that means for raising children, what that means for the kingdom of God, for education, for dominion, that kind of stuff.

00:52:41 And John Ball would be the biggest Pato guy that you would want to get.

00:52:46 But Nehemiah Cox and then modern guys like Sam Renehan are going to be the guys you want to go to for this, for the more credo perspective.

00:52:57 And it's for the theologians and the pastors, this is going to be a big, I just think we're dealing, our culture is requiring kind of a deeper analysis of these things.

00:53:09 I agree.

00:53:10 One of the things, you know, in landing the plane, all that's super helpful and I agree.

00:53:15 One of the things that I just, people are going to have to have a way of understand, theologically understanding a person, a nation, a community, an entity, a business, a family, being in covenant with God, in a real covenant, beyond it merely being salvation.

00:53:37 That a person who is not saved can have some measure of being in a covenant with God in the New Testament.

00:53:45 I think people, the typical Baptist has, the only category they have for that is the nation

00:53:49 of Israel.

00:53:50 That's something that God was doing in the Old Testament.

00:53:51 That's an old covenant thing where people who are not saved, not regenerate, have real

00:53:56 covenant with God.

00:53:56 But ever since Christ and his life, death, resurrection, and ascension, ever since that

00:54:01 happened, there's only one way to be in covenant with God, and that's to be born again.

00:54:09 And I would say, no, that's the chief way to be in covenant with God.

00:54:13 That's the only eternal way to be in covenant with God.

00:54:16 And that's the only way to be in right standing with God.

00:54:19 And that is the new covenant.

00:54:20 And that's the only saving covenant.

00:54:23 But there are other covenants.

00:54:25 We have to have an understanding of national covenants with God.

00:54:29 We have to have a way of understanding family covenants with God.

00:54:34 So what I've been saying, you know, is online and with, you know, getting in all kinds of

00:54:38 trouble is just saying that there are more covenant.

00:54:41 i think the presbyterian wants to stretch the new covenant and the baptist wants to pretend as as

00:54:45 though there's only the new covenant is the only covenant there is and and i'm just over here being

00:54:51 either theologically genius or very likely theologically confused right in the middle in

00:54:56 the juicy middles right which usually means wrong right because i i recognize i'm not the smartest

00:55:01 person to ever come along so i doubt that i'm on to something new and novel and right i i recognize

00:55:07 that but still i just right now this is where i'm at is i think the presbyterian wants to stretch

00:55:11 the new covenant and make it encompass a whole bunch of stuff and and uh and the baptist wants

00:55:16 to say no it's just for salvation and i agree with that part and they want to say and it's the

00:55:20 only covenant there is so your kids are vipers and diapers you know um until until we have a

00:55:25 credible profession of faith and and america's never been a christian nation and they're not 0.60

00:55:29 in covenant with god and let's just principled pluralism and classical liberalism and drag queen

00:55:34 story hours a blessing of liberty and i'm like if that's baptist i'm out i'm out like and i

00:55:41 appreciate these guys i want to let me go on the record saying it's not but these guys are acting

00:55:46 like it is jared it's david french and russell moore but that's not like no see that see that's

00:55:52 fine david french and russell moore it's not fine but it's to be expected it's not david french and

00:55:56 russell moore it's it's guys who who are right there with us tooth and nail fighting against

00:56:02 wokeness. Um, and we agreed on the problem and I will not name them cause I will not name them,

00:56:07 but they fought with us on the problem. Some of them saw the problem before we did

00:56:12 and God bless them forever for it and their courage and their vigilance. But we disagree

00:56:17 on the solution. It's like Votie Bauckham's fault lines, right? I feel like there's a second, 0.84

00:56:22 there's a second earthquake happening. The first was the problem. Do we see CRT,

00:56:28 intersectionality wokeness you know um believe all women hashtag me too hashtag church too

00:56:33 right they you know get gets into john mccarthur like biblical counseling is abusive and oppressive

00:56:38 like there's all these serious things and we lost about half the evangelical church went woke and

00:56:44 and you know that there's your russell moore there's your david french there's you know

00:56:47 beth moore and and rick warren and and the whole lot of them but then there's this other half that

00:56:53 that was with us. But now we're not talking about just who sees the problem.

00:56:58 We're talking about who sees the solution. And so I'm not talking about Russell Moore and David

00:57:03 French. I'm talking about now at this point, in terms of the solution, we've got guys saying that

00:57:07 the solution is principled pluralism. The solution is carving out, you know, room for liberty,

00:57:16 you know, and I feel like the solution is Jesus. The solution is an explicitly Christian nation 0.90

00:57:24 that calls upon him by name. That the civil magistrate, that's still separation of church 0.66

00:57:29 and state, but no separation of Christ and state. The state declares publicly, I want to hear them

00:57:36 say it, right? It's like that little GIF online or GIF, whatever you say, where the guy, Shia

00:57:42 LaBeouf, a character in a movie, and he's like, say Christ is Lord. Say it. And it's like, I want

00:57:48 the civil magistrate in our nation and every nation to say Christ is Lord. These are his

00:57:53 commandments. And we are explicitly a Christian nation, and it's going to be enforced. It's going

00:57:58 to be legislated. And we're not legislating belief. That's not binding the conscience.

00:58:03 That's simply arguing from light of nature and special revelation scripture, what God has

00:58:09 clearly said and what he's written on the hearts of all people, even pagan people, per

00:58:13 Romans chapter 2. 0.91

00:58:14 That's the only solution.

00:58:16 This classical liberalism is, it doesn't exist.

00:58:19 I think it's literally, it only looked like it was working because we still had the residue,

00:58:25 the fumes, leftover fumes of Christendom.

00:58:28 Once that's eroded, once the foundations are destroyed, we'll find out classical liberalism 0.99

00:58:33 gets a Christian in the gulag. 1.00

00:58:35 That's all that can produce. 1.00

00:58:36 So anyways, all that being said, in order for us to talk about the solution, all that

00:58:41 back to you, Jared, is just, I don't think you can talk about the solution without covenant.

00:58:46 You can't talk about Christ being the solution for a nation without covenant language.

00:58:54 And it's got to be more than just the new covenant in my assessment, especially with

00:58:59 the Baptist understanding of the new covenant being exclusive to regenerate people.

00:59:03 i have to have a way of saying that nations can be in covenant with god and they must be and

00:59:11 according to scripture they will be because their christ inheritance progressively throughout human

00:59:15 history the nations will flock to him to mount zion nations and they'll and they'll be baptized

00:59:20 they will be christianized nations um and yet not all people will be i'm not a universalist not each

00:59:26 and every individual person in each of these nations will be saved in the eternal sense and

00:59:31 And I have to, but that's still, that's covenantal language.

00:59:35 And it's either the new covenant is way bigger than I thought, or there's just a lot of different covenants, but nobody's really named it.

00:59:45 Yeah.

00:59:45 You know, you might say, I think, so it was Mark Twain.

00:59:50 Mark Twain was once asked, do you believe in infant baptism?

00:59:53 And he says, believe in it. 0.99

00:59:55 I've seen it done.

00:59:56 and uh um i think you could say the same thing to the point you're making which is a slight which

01:00:02 is a different point you are talking about a different covenant but you if somebody says you

01:00:07 know you know do you believe in that that a nation can be a christian nation you could say

01:00:12 believe in it i've seen it done i mean this is this solemn league and covenant you've got like

01:00:17 nations in history that have already done this um nations in history there are nations right now

01:00:23 that are. Uganda

01:00:25 seems to be doing pretty decent.

01:00:26 They're working on it.

01:00:29 I think there is

01:00:30 a side from our

01:00:33 deep dive into the covenant of grace

01:00:35 today. I think you're making a good

01:00:37 point that everybody can

01:00:38 that a lot of people could get

01:00:41 on board with from a lot of different camps.

01:00:44 Yeah. All right.

01:00:46 Well, hopefully

01:00:47 people learned something from

01:00:49 this conversation. I just think it's good to just keep talking

01:00:51 about it. We've got to figure it out. And

01:00:52 And Baptists and Presbyterians got to be able to get along.

01:00:55 And I've been telling my Baptist brothers, I said, either they're right and we just need

01:00:59 to join them, or if we're on to something and we are right in terms of our view of the

01:01:07 new covenant, we still have a lot to learn.

01:01:11 There's only really two possibilities.

01:01:14 Either Presbyterians are right and there's just one house for covenant theology and we 0.99

01:01:18 just all need to, the Baptists need to leave their shanty and move into the neighbor's 0.99

01:01:22 mansion. And there's plenty of room and the neighbors will applaud us as we come in. Praise 0.99

01:01:25 God. Or if the Baptist Foundation really can support a mansion and you really can have a

01:01:32 robust political theology, because that's what we're getting into here at the end, within the

01:01:36 Baptist framework, within a particular Baptist covenantal framework, then we have to at least

01:01:42 recognize that even if we're right and the Presbyterians are wrong, the Presbyterians have

01:01:46 historically done a lot more work with even with being wrong than the Baptists have being right.

01:01:51 we've got very little to show as baptists when it comes to political the black road regiment

01:01:56 is a thing they did something we don't have the baptist equivalent so we've got like a couple

01:02:03 centuries of theological heavy lifting to do to catch up that either we'll find after doing it

01:02:08 that it actually can't be done and we'll move into the presbyterian house but one way or another we

01:02:13 got to start and the baptist is just saying that we shouldn't even start that it's not worth

01:02:17 starting, that it's not even worth trying to figure out, to do this covenantal theological

01:02:22 work to try to save our nation, to try to make it to where our grandkids have a chance

01:02:30 to be able to grow up the way we did, to just sell them down the river and just, I just

01:02:36 don't, like for me, a lot changed when I became a dad.

01:02:40 I have kids and I love them. And, and I don't want, I don't, I don't want them to, I don't

01:02:46 want things to keep heading the way they are. And, and they will keep heading the way they are

01:02:50 unless, unless we start doing something and to do something that involves a whole nation, 0.65

01:02:56 a bunch of them not being Christians, you have to have some kind of covenantal framework for that.

01:03:01 Can I be frank with you for just a second, right here at the end? Look, some of you guys,

01:03:05 you're financially supporting this ministry. And from the bottom of my heart, I say,

01:03:10 thank you. I cannot thank you enough. However, some of you, you just, you can't afford it.

01:03:17 In fact, some of you, you shouldn't afford it. Let's be honest. I mean, we're living in Joe

01:03:23 Biden's ridiculous economy. Our nation and our totalitarian political elites lost their minds 0.99

01:03:31 over the last three years due to COVID. We have written checks that we simply cannot cash.

01:03:38 It doesn't matter if people change the definition of a recession.

01:03:42 We are living in a recession right now regardless.

01:03:47 Some of you are struggling to afford a carton of eggs at the grocery store.

01:03:52 You cannot support financially this ministry at this time, nor should you.

01:03:58 But you could still help us tremendously.

01:04:00 I am asking you, please, if you're willing to do so, take one minute of your time.

01:04:06 Leave us a five-star review on your favorite podcast platform, iTunes, Spotify, whatever that

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The NXR Podcast - April 18, 2023

THEOLOGY APPLIED - Baptists Continue To Struggle With Christendom w Jared Longshore

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