The NXR Podcast - December 08, 2021


THEOLOGY APPLIED - Biblical Theonomy & Predictions For America’s Future

Topics
Christendom 2.0
Hosted by
Joel Webbon Harrison Smith Antonio Griffith Dale Partridge Wewsley Todd Calvin Robinson
Guests
Toby Sumter
Mentioned
Christian Sabbath Paul Doug Wilson Chalk Knox Jonathan Lehman Thomas Watson Hezekiah Hebrews Gabriel Wrench Tom Askell Nehemiah Babylon Nineveh Greeks Hitler Annie Roman Plato Bowls Gabe and 1 more
THEOLOGY APPLIED - Durable Trades ｜ How Men Can Be Economically Independent THEOLOGY APPLIED - Biblical Patriarchy： How Complementarianism Falls Short Of Scripture

Episode Stats


Length

58 minutes

Words per minute

195.31

Word count

11,516

Sentence count

469

Harmful content

Toxicity

16

sentences flagged

Hate speech

34

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode of Theology Applied, Pastor Joel is joined by Toby Sumter, Chalk Knox, and Gabriel Wrench, hosts of Cross Politics, to discuss God's Theonomy, God's law in the civil realm, and executing justice.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00 Hi, this is Pastor Joel with Right Response Ministries, and you're listening to another
00:00:03 episode of Theology Applied. In this episode, I was privileged to be joined by Toby Sumter,
00:00:09 Chalk Knox, also known as David Shannon, his real name, and Gabriel Wrench. They're the three hosts
00:00:14 of CrossPolitik, a podcast that I highly recommend. And so they come on the show. Our topic is
00:00:21 theonomy, God's law, legislating God's law in the civil realm, all of Christ for all of life.
00:00:27 And we apply a lot of this conversation, the theological framework, to the subject of America,
00:00:35 how America has done this successfully, how America has failed,
00:00:38 and our predictions for whether or not the nation of the United States of America will continue,
00:00:45 or whether or not, perhaps, because of our rebellion, our time as a nation is up.
00:00:51 So, I think you'll enjoy.
00:00:52 Also, if you're willing to support Right Response Ministries,
00:00:56 you can do so by making a donation of any amount on our website, rightresponseministries.com.
00:01:02 Again, that's rightresponseministries.com. If you're not able to support the ministry
00:01:06 financially, you can still support us through prayer as well as subscribing to our YouTube
00:01:11 channel, clicking the bell so that you'll be notified with new content as it arrives,
00:01:16 and a big one is simply sharing our content with your friends and family members and encouraging
00:01:22 them to subscribe as well. Finally, before we get started, if you are a Christian and or
00:01:29 conservative company or ministry or organization that wants to partner with Right Response Ministries
00:01:36 and sponsor some of our shows through advertisements, we would love to partner with
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00:01:49 advertise at rightresponseministries.com. We'll be able to send you our media kit,
00:01:55 our pricing, and our strategy to help your business succeed. And now, enjoy this episode
00:02:01 of Theology Applied. Applying God's Word to every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied.
00:02:12 All right, welcome to another episode of Theology Applied with Right Response Ministries. As I've
00:02:17 already mentioned we're privileged to be joined with special guests from cross politics we've got
00:02:22 toby we've got chalk knox and we've got the water boy gabriel wrench so without further ado guys go
00:02:28 ahead and just introduce yourselves to our listeners i'm pastor toby sumter associate
00:02:33 pastor at christ church and married to jenny father of four yep and um yeah it's funny you
00:02:41 just introduced us and i don't know what to say except i guess if you can't tell that i'm the
00:02:45 chocolate knocks i don't know what's wrong with you but okay especially especially between the
00:02:50 three of us between the three of us between the three of us but i guess so i'm married to sharon
00:02:54 she has given me seven beautiful children and um filmmaker and yep dripology there we go hey and
00:03:02 i'm gabriel wrench water boy uh i serve as a deacon at christ church here in moscow idaho which is
00:03:07 partially why we call him the water boy yes and it's all connected am i advertising better not
00:03:13 I'm married to Annie, and I got three just wonderful, happy, joyful kids that keep me on my toes.
00:03:20 Go baptize your kids if you have children.
00:03:23 You asked for it, Joel.
00:03:25 Yeah, so by having them on the show, then I just got to take the punches with the baptism.
00:03:31 All right, so this is what we want to do.
00:03:34 With this episode, I wanted to discuss theonomy, God's law, applying it in the civil realm,
00:03:42 executing justice, all those kinds of things.
00:03:44 And you guys, I've learned a lot from you on this topic and been a long-time listener.
00:03:49 So I just wanted to, basically, I'll start with this.
00:03:52 There's a lot of guys who prescribe to the Westminster Confession or they prescribe to
00:03:56 the 1689, and yet they have an incredible aversion to the word theonomy.
00:04:02 What is theonomy?
00:04:03 why are people so bothered by it blah blah blah blah blah um you know it's funny you know there's
00:04:12 a lot of people that are i've seen articles written against the enemy and i always get
00:04:16 concerned when they start writing articles against it i don't want to talk about that really i really
00:04:21 want to ask you how do you start exercising what the civil magistrate is supposed to do
00:04:25 as it relates to justice and how do you get there from a christian perspective and position
00:04:31 And as soon as somebody starts exercising some form of justice from a biblical position, I'm just like, well, that's the enemy. And so I don't and I don't know what the fight really is all about. I want to take away kind of some of the stereotypes that people feel about the enemy. Forget all that. What does it come down to? If somebody steals, what should be the thing?
00:04:51 what is justice what is justice in the case of stealing what is justice in the case of murder
00:04:54 and where'd you get it and where'd you get it and and and when it's time for it to apply whose
00:04:59 fear is supposed to apply the judgment for those things and so when it comes down to it every
00:05:04 christian regardless whether they like the term or not better be a theonomist because if they're
00:05:09 not a theonomist they are then saying that we don't need god's word as it relates to justice
00:05:13 and we can make it up as we go so and the other presuppositional question to ask is if you're
00:05:18 criticizing theonomy what standard are you using to criticize theonomy exactly right exactly right
00:05:24 that's what just what a theonomist would say so i think what go ahead john well i was gonna say
00:05:30 real quick what do you think you know i remember when you guys had jonathan lehman on the show
00:05:34 and and i thought that was one of my favorite episodes and it revealed a lot and it seems
00:05:38 like what lehman was advocating for is like well of course we need god's justice and of course you
00:05:43 know there is a right and a wrong and it's not relative it's not subjective but then what he did
00:05:48 this is my takeaway and i want to see if you guys agree what he did was he made it mystic
00:05:52 that he kept using the word wisdom well it's just wisdom christians just need to have wisdom
00:05:57 um but but it seemed like what he was communicating in that is not a wisdom that is inherent inherently
00:06:03 found in the word of god um but a wisdom that comes i don't know like like that that's more
00:06:11 more mystical what what do you feel like he was doing there right yeah from a from above but not
00:06:17 from a book from above you know what i mean like it's right i agree with you joel i think that
00:06:22 that's exactly what i took away as well and i think that's a misunderstanding of what wisdom
00:06:27 is biblical wisdom is an application of god's word so this goes back to actually the building
00:06:34 of the tabernacle in exodus um god gives wisdom uh to the artisans to construct the tabernacle
00:06:40 and it says, so that they can follow the instructions that God gave to Moses on the
00:06:45 mountain. I mean, it's so the, you know, you think even the modern concept of, you know,
00:06:52 creativity and being an artist, we have this, we, many Christians have even imbibed this sort of
00:06:56 postmodern notion that creativity and artistry and beauty is sort of winging it. Subjective.
00:07:04 It's completely subjective. You're making it up as you go along the, the, you know,
00:07:08 for it to be really beautiful has to be really authentic, which means you just made it up on
00:07:13 the spot. You just splattered the paint. It's emotional. It's a motive. And I would say
00:07:18 mystical. And so I think to the extent that we think wisdom is that kind of artistry,
00:07:24 it's subjective and it's winging it, then you're absolutely right. It's mystical. But biblical
00:07:30 wisdom is the skill and the art, I would say, of applying God's word on the ground to particulars.
00:07:37 Yeah, exactly. And so that goes all the way back to Exodus. The artisans of the tabernacle did not
00:07:43 have the freedom to make it up as they went along. I mean, people who made it up having to do with
00:07:47 anything with the tabernacle got burnt or stoned if they're a prophet. It's right. But that's I
00:07:53 think you're absolutely right. Biblical wisdom is applying God's word. And so I'd love to have
00:07:58 that follow up conversation with Lehman and say, that's my understanding of wisdom. Of course,
00:08:02 the biblical law has to be applied with wisdom. Of course it's case law. It doesn't, it doesn't
00:08:07 apply to every single situation. You take biblical principles and then you apply them to the
00:08:12 particulars on the ground. Um, of course, but the question that I think you're pressing rightly is,
00:08:18 but where do we start? And we have to start with biblical principles. The word of God is our light.
00:08:23 It's our truth. Um, and if we don't start there, then yeah, we've got big problems.
00:08:28 That's good. Would you guys agree with this statement? I'll make a statement and see what
00:08:32 you guys take is so the civil law right we could divide the law into three basic groups ceremonial
00:08:37 civil and moral law the decalogue the ten commandments but we would say that the ceremonial
00:08:42 law is moral for israel they either obey or they don't there's morality that's intrinsically involved
00:08:48 in that but we would say ultimately the ceremonial law has been fulfilled in christ but when it comes
00:08:53 to the civil law even though that was unique to israel um would you guys agree that we would say
00:08:58 that it's not civil law and moral law,
00:09:00 or we divorce them and make them so separate,
00:09:02 but really we could look at the moral law,
00:09:04 the decalogue as the bedrock or the blueprints
00:09:07 and out of it, out of these laws,
00:09:10 like thou shall not murder,
00:09:12 which we would dig even deeper and say
00:09:13 that it's to esteem human life made in the image of God,
00:09:16 to protect it, not to do harm to our neighbor,
00:09:18 all those kinds of things.
00:09:19 And from that, you get a border on the roof of houses
00:09:24 so that people don't fall off.
00:09:26 You get all these different civil laws stemming from the moral law of God, the Decalogue.
00:09:32 And so with Israel, we would look at all these civil laws, and we're not saying that for America or Brazil or China that it's a one-to-one ratio.
00:09:42 I think what we're saying is that with the civil law, we do instead of one step, we do two.
00:09:46 We go from the civil law back to the moral law, and then the moral law applied with wisdom to our time and place.
00:09:53 Is that a good way to express it?
00:09:55 well well the i mean the westminster confession um is um says that um the the the particular
00:10:02 civil laws um have expired with the nation of israel except for the general equity thereof
00:10:08 and the 1689 yeah okay um so the um so basically i would say um i i think that's exactly i think
00:10:18 what you said i think i agree with um frequently people take general equity and then they mean
00:10:22 something kind of mystical by it right they say oh yeah general equity and then just sort of like
00:10:26 something up they wave their hands wave their hands and be like yeah and then just i don't know
00:10:30 what i don't know where they're going to get it from but general equity best i can tell is actually
00:10:34 was a something like a technical term that that was coming out of the western law tradition which
00:10:40 meant the moral principles behind the civil law so i don't uh and again you look at the the men
00:10:47 who wrote the Westminster Confession or the London Baptist Confession or the men who established
00:10:52 our country. I mean, they were the ones that wrote the words, you know, expired except for
00:10:59 the general equity thereof. And then what laws did they put on the books? Well, they had like
00:11:04 Sabbath breaking laws. I mean, they took the Old Testament law and they sought to apply it with
00:11:09 wisdom to their situation. And it doesn't mean they always got it right. But yeah, I think
00:11:13 something like what you're talking about is what is meant by general equity. The moral principles
00:11:17 embedded in the civil law are still binding on the nations of the earth. Paul quotes the Old
00:11:25 Testament law when he talks about paying pastors, do not muzzle an ox. Right. So that goes to kind
00:11:30 of Toby's general equity comments here that the authors of the New Testament had no problem
00:11:36 anchoring their principles and their um uh in book of church order in in old testament principles
00:11:45 and old testament law right and that's what paul was paul was doing there so i you know i think
00:11:49 those categories are helpful um but when you read through the old testament oftentimes you know
00:11:55 they'll they'll kind of go from a a ceremonial text to a civil text to a moral text you know
00:12:02 So it really does require knowing your Bible to be able to sort through this.
00:12:09 I would also just add, I think, for example, to add to Gabe's point is I think the Sabbath law, for example, the fourth commandment actually has all three categories at work.
00:12:21 So I think there is a there is a moral component because it goes all the way back to the foundation of the world, the way God made the world.
00:12:27 There was particular civil penalties that were put in place for the nation of Israel,
00:12:33 and there were ceremonial elements to it as well.
00:12:37 And so when you get to the New Testament, for example,
00:12:39 why does Paul feel free in Galatians and other places, for example, to say,
00:12:44 you know, why are you going back to the Sabbaths?
00:12:45 Why are you going back to the holy days and so on? 0.83
00:12:48 Well, that's the ceremonial law that's fulfilled in Jesus,
00:12:50 and the Judaizers were saying if you don't fulfill the ceremonial law,
00:12:53 you're not fully justified in Jesus.
00:12:54 So I think we stand with Paul dead on and say, yeah, don't go back to a ceremonial Sabbath.
00:13:00 The ceremonial Sabbath died in Jesus.
00:13:03 Partially, that's why we celebrate the New Testament Sabbath on Sunday, on the first day of the week. 0.59
00:13:07 It died and it rose again.
00:13:09 But there is still a moral Sabbath.
00:13:11 Hebrews 4 says the Sabbath remains for the people of God.
00:13:14 It's part of the Ten Commandments.
00:13:16 It goes back to the creation of the world.
00:13:17 And because of that, I think that nations are free to apply that moral load, moral law.
00:13:23 judiciously in civil law to this day um i i disagree with the blue laws that um that the
00:13:30 our ancestors tried to you know say you couldn't buy wine and beer on sunday um but there was one
00:13:37 thing that you should be able to buy on sunday i just don't understand that brothers and sisters
00:13:41 but but nevertheless i would say um you know it's actually written into our constitution that the
00:13:45 president has sundays off from um considering um legislation that's brought to him um and so i
00:13:50 think um wise civil magistrates ought to have ways in which they honor the lord's day i yeah i agree
00:13:57 with that though it's i know you were saying it in jest you know just quickly in passing in terms
00:14:02 of buying wine and beer and stuff like that but just to quickly put you guys on the spot because
00:14:06 i really am curious your answer so it's not a loaded question it's a genuine question this is
00:14:10 this is nehemiah nehemiah chapter 13 i really want to hear you guys response especially you toby on
00:14:15 this one so nehemiah chapter 13 starting verse 15 uh this is one of the texts that both the
00:14:21 westminster authors and the 1689 authors cite uh in terms of uh the sabbath day uh verse 15
00:14:27 in those days i saw judah um i saw in judah people treading wine press on the sabbath and bringing
00:14:33 in heaps of grain and loading them on donkeys and also wine grapes figs and all kinds of loads
00:14:38 which they brought into jerusalem on the sabbath day and i warned them on the day when they sold
00:14:43 food. Tyrians also who lived in the city brought in fish and all kinds of goods and sold them on
00:14:50 the Sabbath to the people of Judah and Jerusalem itself. Then I confronted the nobles of Judah and
00:14:55 said to them, what is this evil thing that you were doing profaning the Sabbath day? Did not your
00:15:00 fathers act in this way? And did not our God bring all this disaster on us and on this city? Now you
00:15:07 are bringing more wrath on Israel by profaning the Sabbath. As soon as it began to grow dark at the
00:15:12 gates of Jerusalem before the Sabbath, I commanded that the doors should be shut and gave orders that
00:15:17 they should not be opened until after the Sabbath. And I stationed some of my servants at the gates
00:15:22 that no load might be brought in on the Sabbath day. Then the merchants and sellers of all kinds
00:15:28 of wares lodged outside Jerusalem once or twice. But I warned them and said to them,
00:15:33 why do you lodge outside the wall? If you do so again, I will lay hands on you. From that time
00:15:39 on, they did not come on the Sabbath. Then I commanded the Levites that they should purify 1.00
00:15:43 themselves and come and guard the gates to keep the Sabbath day holy. Remember this also in my 0.99
00:15:48 favor, oh my God, and spare me according to the greatness of your steadfast love. So in my
00:15:53 assessment, that's one of the texts that's cited by the 1689 and the Westminster. And, you know,
00:15:59 but at the same time, I've been Sabbatarian for what, like 15 minutes, you know, so I want to be
00:16:03 humble and admit that, you know, I, I, my, my family and I have adopted Sabbatarian convictions
00:16:08 for about two years now. And so a little longer than 15 minutes, but not much. And I look at guys
00:16:13 who've been Sabbatarian for 30 years and they go out to eat after church on Sunday. And I don't
00:16:17 want to be so arrogant as to presume that I understand something that these faithful
00:16:21 individuals do not. And yet I've also heard arguments on, on the other side saying that,
00:16:26 you know, we want to release our servants on, you know, you or your servant, your male servant,
00:16:31 your female servant um and and that by patroning certain places the marketplace we're forcing
00:16:36 people to work and i know the period like thomas watson i just finished his book on the 10
00:16:40 commandments and thomas watson would have had a fit you know if we were going to the marketplace
00:16:44 on sunday so what what is help me go out to eat on sunday with a clear conscience
00:16:50 well well who's serving you pagans
00:16:54 yeah so um but those were pagans outside the wall of jerusalem that that's that's the difficulty
00:17:01 so so my take is you actually have again i would go back to i think i believe the sabbath command
00:17:06 has all three elements going on all through the laws and there's different elements of it you've
00:17:10 got moral um civil and ceremonial going on and and that fine and the uh and and and so and that
00:17:19 ceremonial, you know, and it's all bound up again with them being able to be in the land.
00:17:24 And if they're not keeping the law completely, if they're not being faithful to the covenant
00:17:29 that they kept, that they made with God, they're going to be kicked out of the land. You've got
00:17:33 them coming back into the land now under Nehemiah. So there's multiple elements here, 0.95
00:17:38 but let me just try to parse it really quickly. Number one is I believe that the moral principle
00:17:42 of not doing your normal daily labors, so they're trying to bring a normal marketplace
00:17:47 and on the Sabbath. And I believe that Christian Sabbatarians should be against that. So we should 1.00
00:17:52 not have our normal marketplace going on, our normal daily business going on. At the same time,
00:17:59 I don't believe that we are under the same ceremonial law such that, as Paul says in Romans
00:18:06 14, people can esteem every day alike or one day differently, and that's not a divisive matter.
00:18:13 So I take that to mean that Sunday is not ceremonially different than any other day of
00:18:18 the week. I believe it is the Lord's Day, the day that Jesus rose from the dead, and it is our
00:18:24 Christian Sabbath. But what we find in the Old Covenant is that Sabbath was one of the feast
00:18:29 days, but then any number of feast days, if you had a feast day, it created a Sabbath day. It
00:18:35 wasn't ceremonially different, but nevertheless, it became a Sabbath day, or it became a feast day.
00:18:40 I believe that the Christian Sabbath, the Lord's Day, Sunday, is the Christian Sabbath, but it's
00:18:44 not a ceremonial Sabbath. It's sanctified by our worship, and it's not the other way around,
00:18:50 like it was in the Old Covenant. But that means that I don't think we're under the exact same
00:18:55 ceremonial regulations as the Old Covenant people. Now, the principle stands, the moral principle is
00:19:01 take a day off and give everybody a day off. So I think of this like, I think one of the best ways
00:19:06 to think about it is like christmas or thanksgiving nobody wants to go to work on christmas or
00:19:10 thanksgiving yeah nobody everybody wants to shut down everyone's have a few hours as possible
00:19:14 at the same time we also know that the sabbath principle is not meant to crush the poor it's not
00:19:21 meant to crush the needy it's not meant to crush them it's it's the travelers the travelers and
00:19:26 it's meant to provide rest maybe for someone who has to travel maybe for emergencies so we already
00:19:32 make example exceptions in the in the confessions for works of necessity for example so i want you
00:19:37 know the cops and the firemen and the and the hospitals and mom who's cooking the meal and i
00:19:42 want to add to that i think sometimes we can be a little bit um cranky about it but i want to say
00:19:46 if somebody's traveling or their car broke down and they need a place to say or they need to buy
00:19:52 some lunch napa auto parts need to open or or if if somebody came through town and whatever the
00:19:57 the plans fell through and and you suddenly need to provide for them um i what in my ideal
00:20:03 sabbatarian society again i would think of it kind of like christmas or thanksgiving where
00:20:07 usually you have very limited hours everybody's trying to go home everybody's trying to give as
00:20:12 much time off as possible but maybe in my ideal sabbatarian community you'd have a rotation of
00:20:17 grocery stores that would have limited hours once a month or once every six weeks so most of the
00:20:22 time most of them are off but one of them's open in town because of emergencies and mom forgets
00:20:28 something and you got to run to the store because you have extra guests that land in town i think
00:20:32 that's fully in keeping with keeping sabbath right um and so i would i would want to say amen to what
00:20:38 nehemiah did i think civil magistrates ought to have laws in place that would um encourage
00:20:44 sabbath keeping right but i also think that sometimes um our puritan forefathers who are
00:20:49 better than men than me, uh, nevertheless had a few extra eggs in the omelet. And, and I would,
00:20:54 I would want them to ease up a bit because I think that actually to give rest, we need to have a
00:20:59 little bit of room to maneuver. So what I would say in terms of your binding your conscience about
00:21:02 going to lunch on, on Sundays, I would say for myself, um, I, I ordinarily don't go out to lunch
00:21:09 on Sunday. However, I don't think it's a sin. If on occasion you decide to give your family rest
00:21:15 by taking them out um to a meal i would want again a sort of similar kind of rotation for
00:21:20 restaurants on sunday or hotels hotels and that kind of thing where occasionally um as need you
00:21:26 know maybe you just had a baby last night and it's like who's going to cook dinner and whatever or
00:21:30 you have guests and i want the opportunity to take them out to a restaurant to give rest but i would
00:21:36 in my ideal world that restaurant would only be open you know once every eight eight weeks or
00:21:40 something and there'd be a rotation of them so we could help serve there's a sabbath rest still
00:21:44 taking place amongst the restaurants exactly so it's culturally we're all resting and and again
00:21:48 like christmas or thanksgiving everything's pretty much shut down but if you need something you could
00:21:53 still go find it so joel you we won't stone you if you happen to you know go to salt lake barbecue
00:21:59 on sunday you know are the egyptians serving because i don't mind plundering the egyptians
00:22:05 on sunday a little bit you know gabe you were gonna say something i just said it yeah that's
00:22:16 it that was my joke that was my joke i i get it well the beauty for in my case is that we we do
00:22:23 a sabbath dinner every saturday evening for all the members in our church and they come over
00:22:27 because we're you know we're church planning we're small at this point so people come over and i'm
00:22:30 you know i'm smoking meat you know all day long sometimes start friday night if i've got a brisket
00:22:35 or something like that, and our doctrine enforces us to feast,
00:22:41 and so we always make more than enough food, and we don't ration it out.
00:22:46 And so there's always baskets left over, if you will,
00:22:51 which means Sunday afternoon after church, because it's at my house,
00:22:54 I get to keep most of the leftovers.
00:22:56 So when my family comes home, all it takes for us is mom gets lunch off,
00:23:05 she doesn't have to make anything. I just go over to the microwave and we get brisket and ribs and
00:23:09 things like that. So lots of us do the exact same thing here in Moscow. Yep. Cool. All right,
00:23:15 well, let's go back to the heart motivation for a lot of Christians. I don't want to unnecessarily
00:23:20 pick on Jonathan Lehman, although I'm perfectly comfortable picking on him a little bit, but
00:23:23 he represents, you know, it's not unique to him. That's what I mean. It's not like he's the only
00:23:28 one. He represents a large group of Christians. And so, you know, at the end of the day, God alone
00:23:33 sees the heart, we look at the outward appearance. But there is a sense, I always want to remind
00:23:37 Christians of this, you know, it's like, well, you can't judge my inner motives. But Jesus does
00:23:41 talk about judging a tree by its fruit. And the Bible does say that out of the abundance of the
00:23:46 heart, you know, the mouth speaks. And so we can't judge definitively, you know, infallibly the
00:23:51 internal motives of the heart. And often it's best for us to leave those things to God and just
00:23:56 strictly judge the fruit itself and the actions and the words, the deeds of an individual. But
00:24:01 there is, when there's a pattern, I guess is my point, when a pattern begins to emerge
00:24:06 in word and or deed with an individual, I think we can begin to suspect certain things
00:24:13 in the person's heart.
00:24:15 And we want to be careful about levying accusations, but I do think we can exercise humble Christian
00:24:20 discernment and say, this does seem to be a motive.
00:24:24 So I'm not making a definitive statement, but I am saying it does seem as though Jonathan
00:24:28 Lehman, and again, him representing a much larger group of many Christians, him being just one
00:24:33 example, because he was on your show, he's a good one to use. But it seems as though there may be
00:24:39 some kind of heart motive, some kind of incentive, something that they're guarding,
00:24:45 that they're protecting by not wanting to just say, you know what, this is maybe a lot simpler
00:24:51 than we're making it. Maybe it's not so mystical. God wrote a book and the book actually applies.
00:24:55 what do you guys think that what is it that people are trying to protect what is the motive
00:25:01 there and we don't even have to say it's his motive but you made that way too complicated
00:25:05 that question all right go ahead because i really do think it's just pure ignorance
00:25:09 i think that these people are ignorant of god's word and and they're probably if there's a
00:25:15 motivation behind it it's to cover up that ignorance they don't know what to do man the 0.87
00:25:19 social justice movement came in here and ransacked the christian evangelicals because they don't know
00:25:25 what to do they don't have any understanding of god's word to be able to apply it to the situation
00:25:31 well but they've been taught to unhitch the old testament from the new testament yes and so now
00:25:34 they're running around like where are clothes that they were in that thing that you unhitch
00:25:38 that's why you run around here naked you know and so well and so i think what they realize is like
00:25:44 wait we don't have on any clothes what do we do and so they're and the social justice we're like
00:25:48 here how about these how about these and what do they do they put them on they're like oh that
00:25:52 seems like wisdom right and so i think i don't think you know their intentions and all this i
00:25:59 again i don't i'm not even going to make that assumption of what's going on there i just think
00:26:03 that they're ignorant and the last thing that people want to do in a situation like this is
00:26:08 repent and that's what god is when you realize you come to a situation and you need help and
00:26:13 you need wisdom repent lord i should have you know that's one thing i really got to say about
00:26:17 Tom Askell when we started making the film by what standard in 2019 and all this stuff started
00:26:22 coming up and and he I remember the first time we went to his house at the conference and I
00:26:27 interviewed him and he was like man I I didn't see this coming I didn't see what was going on
00:26:32 and at the end of the film he sits up here and says brothers we need to repent because we have
00:26:38 been played we hadn't seen the things that were going on right and so I think that there is so
00:26:43 much pride and arrogance if there's anything. Because of the ignorance, the last thing they
00:26:48 want to do is say, we were wrong. We should have been operating and practicing God's word
00:26:53 all the way up until now so that when this hit, we knew exactly how to operate. And that's what
00:26:59 I think it is. It's pride and arrogance and not wanting to repent that they haven't been
00:27:02 in God's word the way that they should have and applying to the situation.
00:27:06 So you would chalk this one up real quick to Chesterton, right? Never attribute to malice
00:27:11 what can easily be explained by stupidity you know or ignorance and so you're saying that the 0.99
00:27:16 motive that there is a motive but the motive is to protect the the reputation the motive is to 0.99
00:27:21 not have to walk it back not wanting to acknowledge hey we we missed this one well no one and nobody
00:27:27 wants to admit that they just don't know they don't have answers they just don't want they 0.91
00:27:30 don't want to in today's era ignorant that you know i mean and men in particular i mean men don't
00:27:35 like to say i don't know but don't you think there's also like a certain amount of embarrassment
00:27:38 that's what i'm saying that's exactly right but where you know i don't want to defend the text
00:27:45 where um it talks about slavery i don't want to defend the text where now now homosexuality i
00:27:51 don't even want to defend those if you're gonna go there then i'm gonna say like this 0.55
00:27:54 doug wilson can't be right like if there's anything he can't be right right 30 40 years
00:28:02 of planning educational institutions seeing what was coming talking about that all this was going
00:28:06 to hinge the play on christianity was going to hinge on how we understood and afraid to talk
00:28:11 about biblical slavery doug wilson can't be right right right so we got to make sure that can't
00:28:16 but yeah that's just that's just narrowing in on the point right it's one thing to admit that god 0.96
00:28:21 was right right it's another thing to admit that doug wilson kick you in the mouth no no i think
00:28:32 the the uh the other thing though joel is i i i think we have uh churches full of unbelievers
00:28:42 so i i i think we i think we have a nation full of um people who don't know jesus i think i think
00:28:51 we have uh i saw i saw somebody uh sharing this over the weekend with reformation day
00:28:56 Maybe I'm time dating this recording, but the somebody saying that the modern American evangelical church is in a worse state than the Roman Catholic Church was when the Reformation started. 0.78
00:29:09 And I think there's a strong argument for that.
00:29:11 I think we are full of just as much mysticism and superstition and corruption in the modern evangelical church. 0.78
00:29:17 I'm thinking the whole thing, not just, you know, the whole, you know, born again, Christianity, whatever, you know, in a worse place, in a worse place than Roman Catholicism.
00:29:26 Um, which, but I think, you know, we, the reason why, uh, America is in the shape that it's in
00:29:32 is because we, we have lost our saltiness. We've lost our light. Jesus said, you are the light of
00:29:38 the world. Why is it so dark? Because the, because despite the fact that we have, um,
00:29:43 millions of professing Christians, they have no light, they have no light. And it's, and so I 0.94
00:29:50 think we have leaders, um, who on the one hand really ought to know better in certain ways, 0.97
00:29:55 But I think even they've been, they're ignorant in certain ways. They were trained in certain 0.89
00:30:00 seminaries that gave them certain kinds of blinders that told them not to ask certain
00:30:03 kinds of questions and not to look in certain dark corners. And so they've got these blinders
00:30:07 and they teach what they know and they do their best. And they're teaching hundreds and thousands
00:30:12 of people who don't know Jesus. So of course they don't know their Bibles. They think that
00:30:20 knowing Jesus is going to a church, a service. I'm not even going to dignify it with the name
00:30:24 church um where you know there's a rock band and the strobe lights and smoke machines and they get
00:30:29 into this um mystical fervor um they have an emotional spiritual orgasm and then they go home
00:30:36 for another week and they think that's christianity and no wonder it translates into absolutely
00:30:42 nothing during the week no wonder it doesn't change their lives at all um that's that's i 0.89
00:30:48 mean talk about ignorance it's not just the ignorance it's not like christian ignorance 0.86
00:30:51 So some of that. Yeah. Yeah. But I think part of the problem is they don't even know God because no wonder they don't know the word. 0.72
00:30:56 You know, it's funny. I was just talking just to jump on that.
00:30:59 You talked about they go to seminary and then they get this four or six year seminary for the most part.
00:31:04 Three. OK, three. But before that, they had 12 years of government education.
00:31:08 That's true. 12 years of government education that has given them particular lenses to even view their theological training in.
00:31:15 Right. Right. And they have to go through rehab first.
00:31:19 none of seminaries go take them they need a detox um and then maybe they can do something and so
00:31:26 the the i was just talking to somebody else about this one of the things that institutions do
00:31:31 is they um make men soft so that they operate easily inside of these institutions they remove
00:31:37 the sharp edges and so you have 12 years of a certain type of education that has made you
00:31:42 effeminate right what do you think is going to happen now that you get to seminary you're going
00:31:46 to get all that back? What does a seminary education start to do? It starts to help encourage
00:31:50 that in one way or another so that your education doesn't give you sharp edges anymore to be
00:31:54 effective. And we saw how effective these men were when 2020 came along. So we became
00:32:01 effeminized and institutionalized because of this type of education, which again, go back
00:32:06 40 years ago, someone saw this. And if you want to finish the whole circle back to Joel asking
00:32:11 about motivations why not theonomy well again that would take balls yeah and they've been cut
00:32:17 off i mean that that would that would take courage that would take a backbone that would mean
00:32:20 real real quick on the balls comment just to pick up on that in light of theonomy and the general
00:32:27 equity of civil laws but also there is a sense of you know ceremonial laws maybe pointing to
00:32:33 something deeper and the ball comment that you made is there something to the fact that a man 0.93
00:32:38 cannot enter the tabernacle if his testicles have been crushed toby yeah is there a general 0.97
00:32:46 equity there you know that maybe maybe should be applied today sure leave it to a baptist 0.98
00:32:51 you're gonna tell me how that works out come back with some information
00:32:56 i want to know how you i want to know your exegetical i'm gonna see your exegetical work
00:33:00 on that one i'm just saying if we're talking about the general equity of god's law and we're
00:33:04 talking about balls and it just makes me think maybe god was up to something when you know there's
00:33:09 a ceremonial reason but maybe there's maybe there's a metaphor there well i mean this is the 0.86
00:33:13 thing like i mean nobody wants to preach through leviticus nobody nobody wants to preach these
00:33:18 passages because then you end up talking about things like this and somebody thinks that's in
00:33:23 your bible the pastors are just being crass when no like it's in the bible like it's in the bible
00:33:30 It's in God's word.
00:33:31 I mean, if you don't have to touch on these issues,
00:33:34 then you're not preaching God's word.
00:33:36 That's right.
00:33:36 And I mean, there we are.
00:33:40 Yep.
00:33:41 All right, well, let's go ahead and shift gears now.
00:33:43 Oh, you know, the last thing I was gonna say,
00:33:45 I think you guys will amen this,
00:33:46 but as far as giving our servants a rest on the Lord's day,
00:33:49 if there's any application for that,
00:33:51 wouldn't it be our fellow Christian church members
00:33:54 giving them a rest from their service
00:33:57 that prohibits them, that takes them into another room
00:34:00 of the church building where they're effectively barred
00:34:03 from the Lord's table because they're in children's ministry.
00:34:06 Isn't that maybe the first place that we should start
00:34:08 by giving all of our servants a rest
00:34:11 with family integrated worship?
00:34:13 I just, I don't know.
00:34:14 I thought about that.
00:34:15 Let's not excommunicate the little ones.
00:34:16 Yeah, exactly.
00:34:17 Go back to the kids if you have children.
00:34:19 You're going to get in trouble with that question, Joel.
00:34:21 Well, I feel like it's a good start
00:34:24 just to at least invite the children to worship.
00:34:26 I like where you're going with this, Joe.
00:34:28 I like where you, you just keep going.
00:34:30 You just, go ahead, finish.
00:34:33 I enjoyed this.
00:34:34 You're almost there. 1.00
00:34:36 Run home, run home, Baptist. 1.00
00:34:37 Keep all my trust you want to give him. 1.00
00:34:45 That's great.
00:34:45 All right.
00:34:46 Okay, so, all right, let's shift gears now.
00:34:48 So, all that I think has been a really great,
00:34:50 helpful framework and backdrop,
00:34:52 but all that being said, America, you know,
00:34:54 i think doug has said and i think you guys would agree that you know people say is america a
00:34:58 christian nation he said well it was but it's a nation that currently is in the process of
00:35:02 apostatizing and and so if that's true and and i and i i believe that that's true but with that
00:35:09 being said we believe the church is going to win right everybody believes every christian believes
00:35:13 christ is going to win i've i've you know as i have conversations with fellow brothers and sisters
00:35:18 in christ with different different positions on eschatology you know i one of the ways that i've
00:35:22 tried to define it simply for people is, do we believe that Christ is going to win despite the
00:35:27 church or that Christ is going to win through his church? That the church is the battering ram of
00:35:33 Christ who is its head that is ultimately, you know, ramming up against the gates of hell and
00:35:39 that they're not going to prevail. And it's this offensive weapon. Hell is on the ropes. And it's
00:35:44 not just that Jesus is going to win in the bottom of the ninth after the church is battered and
00:35:48 bruised, you know, and Jesus wins despite his failing bride, but that he's going to win through
00:35:53 his bride. And so all that being said, my point is, I know you guys are post-mill. And so we
00:35:57 believe not only that Christ is going to win, but we believe in a victorious church, triumphant and
00:36:02 militant. But what about America? You know, so Christ wins, the church wins. Does America,
00:36:10 does America win or does America lose? You know, like I told you guys before we started recording,
00:36:16 I've been reading this book. It's called The Fate of Empires. It's just a collection of
00:36:19 a couple of essays. And he tries to glean wisdom by doing, instead of just focusing history on
00:36:25 one particular culture or nation, he does a global world history. And he tracks it back for,
00:36:31 I think, all the way to like 3,500 BC and talks about empires, the Ottoman Empire,
00:36:35 the Persians, the Medes, the Assyrian Empire, and says that each of these empires, on average,
00:36:40 lasted about 250 years like it's it's actually shocking how how close to that 250 year mark all
00:36:47 of them got and he stages you know he outlines stages and the last stage is a stage of decadence
00:36:52 and some of the characteristics of decadence that's right before their ultimate demise is 1.00
00:36:58 materialism is one of them but one of them also is an influx of foreigners and the welfare state 0.93
00:37:05 becoming an obsession you know and so and so he's mapping um also just uh at that point the nation 0.94
00:37:11 is has the most defense the most um affluence and prosperity and militia and all these things that
00:37:17 they've ever had but but what he says is that the will of the people is no longer there to fight
00:37:23 whereas whereas the founders even though they had nothing what they did have is they had guts
00:37:28 and and a desire for glory and for all these kinds of things and so anyways america you know
00:37:32 the math is pretty, pretty easy to figure out. We're right around that 250 year mark.
00:37:37 What do you guys think? When the whole pandemic started in 2020, I remember we had Doug on our
00:37:44 show and we were interviewing about the pandemic and everything. And Doug quoted Hebrews chapter
00:37:50 12 verses 27 to me. And it was kind of like hearing that verse all over again when he quoted it to me
00:37:57 in that context. And it says, this phrase once more indicates that the removal of things that
00:38:02 are shaken, that is, the things that have been made, in order that the things—let me make sure
00:38:08 I read that correctly with the comments and everything. Let me reread that. This phrase,
00:38:14 yet once more, indicates the removal of things that are shaken, that is, the things that have
00:38:20 been made, in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore, let us be graceful
00:38:26 for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer God acceptable worship
00:38:33 with reverence and awe, for our God is a consuming fire. So when God acts and when God works,
00:38:39 he shakes things, and he shakes things that need to be shaken, and that will go away.
00:38:44 And it says, and Hebrews says, so that we can receive God's kingdom. And so I think that
00:38:51 God is shaking our world in ways that he hasn't done it for decades. And I think that God,
00:38:59 you brought up the point earlier that God is, does he save through the church or around the
00:39:04 church? And God saves through the church. He saves through his bride. And as the church disciples
00:39:13 the world, God is saving through the church. He's not getting rid of his church. He's building the
00:39:16 church, he's building the kingdom here on earth. And so America could go away or could not, God can
00:39:22 do whatever he wants there. But one thing that's not going to be shaken is his kingdom. Now, I do
00:39:27 think we are apostatizing here in America. And I think the church is largely apostatizing America
00:39:33 for reasons that we've discussed here on the show already. And so, but what I don't want to do is
00:39:39 preach, you know, some sort of Christian nationalism, you know, some sort of patriotic
00:39:45 nationalism to our country saying we never want America to go away. We think that if America goes
00:39:52 away, the world is doomed. That's not how God works. It's what every empire thought. It's what
00:39:57 every empire thought. And so I want God to save the world. I want God to save my friends here.
00:40:02 And I want God to save Idaho. I want God to save Washington, D.C. But if we think that America
00:40:10 is the shining light to the, to the world. I want nothing to do with that religion. Um, so 1.00
00:40:17 I would, I would say that, um, yeah, we're post-mill. We believe that, you know, I think
00:40:22 I'm out of full Jesus before Joel. Um, but if apostle Paul, you know, when apostle Paul,
00:40:27 when Jesus died, there's what about 500 Christians here on this earth. Um, and then when apostle
00:40:32 Paul died, you know, maybe 20,000, I don't know. It would be kind of an interesting number to try
00:40:39 to figure out 20 000 50 000 whatever it is um if apostle paul came back now and walked around here
00:40:45 in the united states and saw all these church buildings everywhere um regardless if he was
00:40:51 post mill back then he would be post mill now it's like there's churches everywhere everywhere
00:41:00 there's christians and and paul i mean he was like ministering to churches in corinth i mean
00:41:04 he knew they're messed up yeah i was gonna say he might beat a few of them out of the churches
00:41:08 like we're gonna reintroduce some people to this building but the point is god is working
00:41:13 and sometimes we get pretty discouraged because we see all these physical um challenges before us
00:41:20 tyrants um petty laws taxation whatever um but god is really working in this world and and we just
00:41:27 gotta you know trust in his word and the scriptures and kind of take a step back and and look at what
00:41:32 god has done from the resurrection of christ until now that's pretty encouraging yeah yeah right um
00:41:38 now i'm just gonna be straight up america's gonna die it is it's gonna die when um it's dying now
00:41:45 and so it's happening it's like this cancerous and you know here's the deal the reason that
00:41:52 scares people is because they don't believe in resurrection yeah um god is using and will
00:41:58 continue to use empires to be fertilizer for the kingdom that's what he's doing and so why are you
00:42:04 afraid of it when you see it. Don't be afraid of that. This is God. Listen, God, if you don't know
00:42:11 the story and you don't know who's telling it, then you're going to be afraid. This is God's
00:42:16 story. He's telling it. And if you're reading your Bible, you know the trajectory of this story.
00:42:21 So when you see these things happen, you realize, we were just talking about that, when Israel was
00:42:26 in Egypt and God was judging Egypt, the judgments were going across Egypt, but Israel still had
00:42:33 light when there was no light there. There was light in Goshen. So when we see what's going on
00:42:39 in the world and we see God's judgment coming down, Christians need to be faithful. They need
00:42:43 to honor God in what they're doing. They need to stay close to their worship, raise their children,
00:42:46 do the things that they know to do, because God is going to use that to launch them out or launch
00:42:53 the next thing as for the benefit of the kingdom. They left Egypt and Egypt was bankrupt and broke,
00:42:59 but that money didn't just dissolve right it went somewhere to create and build the kingdom that
00:43:05 they were moving to and so whatever to create and build an idol unfortunately that golden calf came
00:43:13 from somewhere and and the tabernacle come on you're right yeah come on that calf didn't last
00:43:19 that long it was and those people didn't last that long either you know i'm saying so there's
00:43:24 a purification process again you're just making my point but that's right some things were shaking
00:43:28 I don't I think what happens is that people have made America the kingdom.
00:43:32 And so when they see America take his, they're like, oh, no, the kingdom of God is under assault.
00:43:37 It's like, no, no, America as an idol is being torn down.
00:43:42 And that worldview that is not honoring God is becoming consistent with itself is eating itself to death.
00:43:47 And those things that cannot be shaken will remain.
00:43:50 And I know we shouldn't lose heart in that.
00:43:53 It's disappointing to see a lot of things that we work for fall apart.
00:43:56 But if those things aren't honoring God, then take it all, Jesus.
00:43:59 Take it all.
00:44:00 We don't want any of that.
00:44:01 Clean out all the cancer.
00:44:02 And that's what he's doing.
00:44:03 So I'm grateful for America.
00:44:06 I want America to be one of those things that helps support the kingdom of God.
00:44:11 But if America is going to turn its back on God, then thus to all dragons.
00:44:16 Yeah, so be it.
00:44:18 You know?
00:44:18 And so I'm on this.
00:44:21 I know where the story is going to end.
00:44:23 I know the story that God is telling.
00:44:24 And I know my responsibility in this story is to be a faithful father, a faithful husband, a faithful man who fears God and honors God in everything he does.
00:44:33 And that's the trajectory I'm on.
00:44:34 And I believe that through that, God will keep his people as the whole thing is being turned into fertilizer for the kingdom.
00:44:41 I really like that image of fertilizer.
00:44:44 I really do.
00:44:45 I like that.
00:44:46 And I also it works really well, because I think what happens is if you go back through history, I'm not read the book that Joel's talking about here.
00:44:53 But but I think each of the empires, each of the kingdoms and nations that God raised up in many respects, they did go down in and become fertilizer for the next nation.
00:45:04 Yeah. And and and they took, you know, like people talk about the Roman Empire is this amalgamation.
00:45:10 Like, what is Rome and what is the Roman Empire?
00:45:12 Well, it's like this, it's partially sort of Greek culture, but it's combined with this new thing that's Roman. But even the Greeks were drawing off of Persian and Babylonian culture. And then you've got this, you know, this Jewish Hebraic culture that's also sort of under the surface in various ways.
00:45:31 And so you have even early Christians speculating that maybe Plato learned from Moses and these kind of things because they're drawing off of things that are actually quite biblical in certain ways.
00:45:41 And but then you have, you know, the Rome falls, it goes into the, you know, into into Europe.
00:45:46 And what is, you know, what is the British Empire?
00:45:50 But sort of Rome kind of dissolved into the Western European tribes and then resurrected.
00:45:59 and then you have you know sort of this this new form of feudalism in the british empire but then
00:46:05 as that's dying you have that old feudalism that old roman greek philosophy mixed with um christian
00:46:13 covenantal thinking and british sensibilities and where does it come back to life in america
00:46:19 yeah i mean that's that's that's the american empire and so it's like you know god gives these
00:46:24 good gifts. They're used and enjoyed and they do good things for the people. And the kingdom is
00:46:31 advancing in every stage. The kingdom's not being taken down. But then you're right, the outward
00:46:38 form gets shaken and it goes down into the dust. It becomes the fertilizer for the next thing that
00:46:45 God's doing. And the last thing I'll just add to this is, you know, the book of Revelation is a
00:46:48 helpful way, I think, to answer the question too. And it ties back into your point about
00:46:53 how the church is used. But the book of Revelation, in many respects, is the story of the effect of
00:46:59 the church's worship on the history of the world. Focused on the first century, but at the end,
00:47:04 it kind of, I think, is looking down the corridors of time. In the first century, as the Christians 0.99
00:47:10 worshipped, what's going on in heaven is then going down on earth. So, as you begin, you got 1.00
00:47:16 the exhortations of the seven churches, and then John begins to have this revelation, this vision
00:47:22 of what's going on in heaven, but what it's all, it's all bookmarked by these punctuations of
00:47:28 worship. The elders, the angels, the people, they fall down in worship. And then what happens?
00:47:34 Bowls are poured out, incense is offered, and it goes on the earth and the judgments of God fall
00:47:39 on the earth. And so you have worship is the battering ram. The church is the battering ram.
00:47:46 It is part of the leaven that builds up nations, but then also over time, it's as the nation
00:47:51 turns away from God or withers or whatever, God brings it down and raises up new nations. But
00:47:58 what's kind of cool and glorious is at the very end, despite all that, Revelation 21, 23 says,
00:48:06 and the city, this is the new Jerusalem, had no need of the sun, neither of the moon to shine in
00:48:10 it, for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. Verse 24, and the nations
00:48:16 of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it, and the kings of the earth do bring their
00:48:21 glory and honor into it and the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day for there shall be no
00:48:26 night there and they shall bring the glory and honor of the nations into it and so um and i
00:48:34 don't know you know how does that work exactly i'm not sure but at the very least i would say
00:48:38 as the nations rise um there are certain gifts that the nations give the world um that are are
00:48:46 good gifts right last forever yeah and there are gifts that that america has given the world
00:48:52 that will last forever that they're good gifts they're solid gifts they're solid things that
00:48:57 can't be shaken um in the providence of god and so that america it will will last forever yeah
00:49:04 because it was true real um solid gifts it was real justice it was some vision of some kind of
00:49:10 sensibility some gift i think the same thing of of england i'm thinking geneva i think the same
00:49:15 thing of geneva um you know uh in uh last battle lewis um um talks about you know sort of narnia
00:49:22 the the new narnia um as it's it's like england but it's like a glorified england so in the new
00:49:29 heavens and new earth i think all of the good gifts of all of the nations he made texas last
00:49:34 forever including texas deep in the heart of texas no that's good toby i i really appreciate
00:49:44 that. And I think, you know, I know you guys will agree with this, but, you know, the coming of
00:49:47 Christ, you know, this massive divide in terms of human history, you know, when you think of
00:49:53 oppressive nations, empires, you know, that ruled the known globe at the time, but were a force of 0.96
00:50:00 great wickedness and evil, you know, Babylon, right? When you think of that, it's like, in the 1.00
00:50:05 coming of Jesus, in the last 2,000 years, we've had atrocious things happen. I mean, millions have
00:50:11 died underneath communism. And you have your Stalins, you have your Hitlers and things like
00:50:17 that. But the big thing that stands out to me is that they ultimately fail. Hitler was atrocious,
00:50:25 but the Third Reich can be measured in just a very short period of time. But there's nothing 0.65
00:50:30 in the last 2,000 years really comparable to Babylon. And so in Christ coming, he tells the
00:50:36 parable. You have to plunder the house. You need to go in and bind the strong man. And so in his
00:50:41 life, death and resurrection, being able to bind the strong man, take Satan and bind him, no longer
00:50:45 able to deceive the nations. And something spiritually, something in the heavens took place
00:50:51 and poured out. There's an effect here on earth. And so I don't think we're going to witness the
00:50:58 long-term lasting lifespan of heinous, wicked, evil nations because of what Christ has done.
00:51:05 No, not anymore.
00:51:07 But I do think that it's possible.
00:51:09 Yeah, exactly, not anymore.
00:51:10 But my point is I do think it's possible if a nation would humble themselves
00:51:17 and submit to God, I think that God will exalt those people
00:51:20 as long as they're willing to be obedient.
00:51:24 And so I think what's – my point is I think what's unique about America,
00:51:27 because I would give a hearty amen to everything that you said, Knox,
00:51:30 and we don't need America.
00:51:32 And what God's going to do, everything's going to be for his glory
00:51:35 for the good of those people who love him and are called according to his name. So America's
00:51:39 exaltation or demise will be to the benefit of the church. Either way. And so we believe that. 0.88
00:51:46 But my point is, America is unique in the sense that I feel like in many ways, it may be one of
00:51:52 the closest expressions that we've ever had. And I think Doug Wilson even said, with Christendom,
00:51:58 whether it's Constantine, stuff like that, the failure is not, okay, well, these Spanish crusades
00:52:03 or whatever. That was a bad idea. No, we need Christendom 2.0. And these were bugs rather than
00:52:09 features, and let's work them out. And then we'll get 3.0. But eventually, this leaven is going to
00:52:14 permeate the whole batch of dough. This little mustard seed is going to be a tree that offers
00:52:19 shade to the beasts of the field all over the earth, and the birds of the air are going to
00:52:23 find refuge and rest in his branches. And Christ is building the kingdom, and it is going to have,
00:52:29 his kingdom is going to have a material physical, because we're not Gnostics, it's going to have
00:52:33 an earthly expression. And it is going to be legislated through laws, just laws that glorify 0.88
00:52:40 the king in heaven and demand obedience from his subjects here on earth. And so all of these things
00:52:47 are going to occur. And the idea that God might use a nation or nations for a prolonged period
00:52:54 of time, I don't, my point is, I don't think the 250 year mold has to be the fate of every nation.
00:53:00 I agree. And so I guess I just, I just want to say, so we don't, we don't need America. Our hope
00:53:04 is not in America. But it is possible. America, Christians in America, we don't have to just roll
00:53:11 over and say, this is our fate. Now we may say, I think I'm inclined to believe that this is going
00:53:15 to be what happens. But if it happens, it's not because God just destined it in the stars. And
00:53:22 we never had we never had the option otherwise no it's because because we rolled over because of
00:53:27 our wickedness because of our abdication of response christian responsibility we we we set
00:53:33 our own fate god did it sovereignly but through the agency of the church and its failure and um
00:53:39 you know what i mean and so i i just want to absolutely you know say you know that point and
00:53:43 say that like it doesn't have to be our fate and um and if we did repent god is god is faithful
00:53:49 and merciful. And I, and I believe like Hezekiah, that's my prayer, right? So I do love America and
00:53:54 I do want it to continue. And the reason I want it to continue, I didn't feel this way five years
00:53:59 ago, but something happened the last five years. I had three little girls and, and, and so, so I'm
00:54:05 thinking, you know, everything God does is for our eternal good. But man, if I have any say in the
00:54:10 matter, I'd like for my girls, not, not to have to go through a civil war and not to have, you know,
00:54:14 not to have sons of their own that die, you know, and, and be exiles, you know,
00:54:19 and have to flee to, to with Elon Musk to Mars or whatever,
00:54:22 to set up the new Christian colony or what, you know, like I,
00:54:25 I'd love for that not to be the case. 0.96
00:54:27 I know it'll be good if that's what God decides, but, but, you know,
00:54:30 I want to fight. And so I feel like Hezekiah, like just praying, um,
00:54:34 and, and, and then crying out as a prophet, as a preacher to the nation,
00:54:37 because I know God doesn't, God is not going to bless.
00:54:41 We can't ask for his blessing and for his mercy without repentance.
00:54:45 And if we repent, we're going to have to say his name.
00:54:47 So I want to, in my prophetic role as a pastor and as a Christian,
00:54:51 cry out and say, repent and call upon the name of Jesus 0.91
00:54:54 and turn from your wickedness.
00:54:55 And then as a priest, as an intercessor, I want to cry out to Jesus and say,
00:54:59 would you give us 15 more years?
00:55:02 You know, and what do you guys think about that?
00:55:04 If you find 10 people. 0.84
00:55:05 Well, I mean, if Nineveh can repent, then we can repent. 0.93
00:55:12 And I agree with exactly what you said.
00:55:16 This is where God has placed us, and we are called upon to love our neighbors.
00:55:21 And our neighbors are these people, this nation.
00:55:24 We love them.
00:55:25 And no man had greater love than he laid his life down for his friend.
00:55:30 So this is our assignment.
00:55:32 We're called to love this nation, telling them the truth of the gospel, calling them to repentance, and amen.
00:55:40 Amen.
00:55:41 So that, among a whole other host of things, but that, I would say, is not the distinction, 0.76
00:55:45 but that's one of the distinctions between us and AOC, is that Christians, if America falls,
00:55:52 Christians' response will be that we'll weep, like that we love our neighbors.
00:55:56 And then it said, we're not rejoicing with the ashes and burn it all down.
00:56:03 We're saying, let God be true and every man a liar and let his will be done.
00:56:07 But we won't weep.
00:56:07 And we trust in his wisdom.
00:56:09 But we won't weep like those who have no hope.
00:56:12 That's right.
00:56:12 That's right.
00:56:13 Amen.
00:56:13 We will weep.
00:56:14 I mean, there's a book of lamentations that's all about weeping over Jerusalem fallen. 0.66
00:56:20 And every Jerusalem fallen, I would say, is the application. 0.99
00:56:24 Amen. 0.99
00:56:24 And I do agree with what you said, that America, I think, is the high water mark to this point.
00:56:31 But no eye has seen, ear has heard the glorious things that God has prepared for us.
00:56:36 I mean, I just don't think this is anything yet.
00:56:38 You haven't seen nothing yet.
00:56:40 And God may be pleased to give America repentance to give us another 250 years.
00:56:44 God be pleased to give us that repentance and that glory.
00:56:48 And if not, bring it down so that you can bring up the next one.
00:56:53 And by the way, we do a whole show here for the very purpose,
00:56:56 hoping that that sparks some sort of repentance in our brothers.
00:56:59 That flag underneath that cross is our hope.
00:57:02 It's because that's our hope.
00:57:04 Amen.
00:57:04 Amen.
00:57:05 Well, guys, thanks so much for coming on the show.
00:57:07 Chalk Knox, I'm going to do something dangerous.
00:57:09 I'm going to give you the last word.
00:57:11 You got one minute to try to convince me to baptize my three little girls.
00:57:16 Oh, bro.
00:57:17 One minute?
00:57:18 You can do it, man.
00:57:19 Yeah, one minute.
00:57:19 Just play your little video.
00:57:21 get your little presbyterian chuckle yeah play your little outro you guys laugh at the baptist
00:57:27 quick quick pitch why you should baptize your kids because when they were born i get it they
00:57:38 had your last name when they were born they were made americans when your kids were born they were
00:57:41 born they were born weapons and they were born in the direction of their father to serve the god of
00:57:47 their fathers. And so your kids are not, I always say this, if a Muslim came in the house saying, 0.95
00:57:53 hey, kill all the Christians in here, they wouldn't leave your kids. 1.00
00:57:56 Oops. Amen. I can affirm all that as a Reformed Baptist. And we'll have to talk about how and why 1.00
00:58:03 and why we disagree another time. All right, guys, thank you so much for coming on the show.
00:58:08 God bless you. God bless your ministry. And I encourage all of our listeners, if you get an
00:58:12 opportunity, check out CrossPolitik. If you're wanting to keep up with the headlines, they hit
00:58:16 current events all the time, and they hit it all through a Christian worldview. And there's a lot
00:58:21 of guys who do that through a Christian worldview, but they actually do that through a Christian
00:58:25 worldview with courage. So, all right. Thanks, guys. God bless you. Thank you, Joel. Bye, brother.
00:58:29 Thank you.
00:58:31 As a special thank you for your gift of any amount, we'll be happy to send you a free digital book
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