The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - Biblical Theonomy & Predictions For America’s Future

00:00:00.000 Hi, this is Pastor Joel with Right Response Ministries, and you're listening to another

00:00:03.520 episode of Theology Applied. In this episode, I was privileged to be joined by Toby Sumter,

00:00:09.200 Chalk Knox, also known as David Shannon, his real name, and Gabriel Wrench. They're the three hosts

00:00:14.940 of CrossPolitik, a podcast that I highly recommend. And so they come on the show. Our topic is

00:00:21.560 theonomy, God's law, legislating God's law in the civil realm, all of Christ for all of life.

00:00:27.900 And we apply a lot of this conversation, the theological framework, to the subject of America,

00:00:35.460 how America has done this successfully, how America has failed,

00:00:38.840 and our predictions for whether or not the nation of the United States of America will continue,

00:00:45.560 or whether or not, perhaps, because of our rebellion, our time as a nation is up.

00:00:51.200 So, I think you'll enjoy.

00:00:52.980 Also, if you're willing to support Right Response Ministries,

00:00:56.040 you can do so by making a donation of any amount on our website, rightresponseministries.com.

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00:02:01.360 of Theology Applied. Applying God's Word to every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied.

00:02:12.780 All right, welcome to another episode of Theology Applied with Right Response Ministries. As I've

00:02:17.380 already mentioned we're privileged to be joined with special guests from cross politics we've got

00:02:22.140 toby we've got chalk knox and we've got the water boy gabriel wrench so without further ado guys go

00:02:28.380 ahead and just introduce yourselves to our listeners i'm pastor toby sumter associate

00:02:33.480 pastor at christ church and married to jenny father of four yep and um yeah it's funny you

00:02:41.620 just introduced us and i don't know what to say except i guess if you can't tell that i'm the

00:02:45.720 chocolate knocks i don't know what's wrong with you but okay especially especially between the

00:02:50.480 three of us between the three of us between the three of us but i guess so i'm married to sharon

00:02:54.160 she has given me seven beautiful children and um filmmaker and yep dripology there we go hey and

00:03:02.100 i'm gabriel wrench water boy uh i serve as a deacon at christ church here in moscow idaho which is

00:03:07.500 partially why we call him the water boy yes and it's all connected am i advertising better not

00:03:13.180 I'm married to Annie, and I got three just wonderful, happy, joyful kids that keep me on my toes.

00:03:20.680 Go baptize your kids if you have children.

00:03:23.400 You asked for it, Joel.

00:03:25.480 Yeah, so by having them on the show, then I just got to take the punches with the baptism.

00:03:31.280 All right, so this is what we want to do.

00:03:34.500 With this episode, I wanted to discuss theonomy, God's law, applying it in the civil realm,

00:03:42.100 executing justice, all those kinds of things.

00:03:44.660 And you guys, I've learned a lot from you on this topic and been a long-time listener.

00:03:49.820 So I just wanted to, basically, I'll start with this.

00:03:52.900 There's a lot of guys who prescribe to the Westminster Confession or they prescribe to

00:03:56.700 the 1689, and yet they have an incredible aversion to the word theonomy.

00:04:02.800 What is theonomy?

00:04:03.680 why are people so bothered by it blah blah blah blah blah um you know it's funny you know there's

00:04:12.420 a lot of people that are i've seen articles written against the enemy and i always get

00:04:16.860 concerned when they start writing articles against it i don't want to talk about that really i really

00:04:21.180 want to ask you how do you start exercising what the civil magistrate is supposed to do

00:04:25.280 as it relates to justice and how do you get there from a christian perspective and position

00:04:31.120 And as soon as somebody starts exercising some form of justice from a biblical position, I'm just like, well, that's the enemy. And so I don't and I don't know what the fight really is all about. I want to take away kind of some of the stereotypes that people feel about the enemy. Forget all that. What does it come down to? If somebody steals, what should be the thing?

00:04:51.040 what is justice what is justice in the case of stealing what is justice in the case of murder

00:04:54.920 and where'd you get it and where'd you get it and and and when it's time for it to apply whose

00:04:59.780 fear is supposed to apply the judgment for those things and so when it comes down to it every

00:05:04.800 christian regardless whether they like the term or not better be a theonomist because if they're

00:05:09.420 not a theonomist they are then saying that we don't need god's word as it relates to justice

00:05:13.620 and we can make it up as we go so and the other presuppositional question to ask is if you're

00:05:18.320 criticizing theonomy what standard are you using to criticize theonomy exactly right exactly right

00:05:24.020 that's what just what a theonomist would say so i think what go ahead john well i was gonna say

00:05:30.520 real quick what do you think you know i remember when you guys had jonathan lehman on the show

00:05:34.040 and and i thought that was one of my favorite episodes and it revealed a lot and it seems

00:05:38.900 like what lehman was advocating for is like well of course we need god's justice and of course you

00:05:43.960 know there is a right and a wrong and it's not relative it's not subjective but then what he did

00:05:48.340 this is my takeaway and i want to see if you guys agree what he did was he made it mystic

00:05:52.680 that he kept using the word wisdom well it's just wisdom christians just need to have wisdom

00:05:57.060 um but but it seemed like what he was communicating in that is not a wisdom that is inherent inherently

00:06:03.660 found in the word of god um but a wisdom that comes i don't know like like that that's more

00:06:11.660 more mystical what what do you feel like he was doing there right yeah from a from above but not

00:06:17.380 from a book from above you know what i mean like it's right i agree with you joel i think that

00:06:22.140 that's exactly what i took away as well and i think that's a misunderstanding of what wisdom

00:06:27.720 is biblical wisdom is an application of god's word so this goes back to actually the building

00:06:34.540 of the tabernacle in exodus um god gives wisdom uh to the artisans to construct the tabernacle

00:06:40.820 and it says, so that they can follow the instructions that God gave to Moses on the

00:06:45.880 mountain. I mean, it's so the, you know, you think even the modern concept of, you know,

00:06:52.300 creativity and being an artist, we have this, we, many Christians have even imbibed this sort of

00:06:56.960 postmodern notion that creativity and artistry and beauty is sort of winging it. Subjective.

00:07:04.240 It's completely subjective. You're making it up as you go along the, the, you know,

00:07:08.460 for it to be really beautiful has to be really authentic, which means you just made it up on

00:07:13.240 the spot. You just splattered the paint. It's emotional. It's a motive. And I would say

00:07:18.580 mystical. And so I think to the extent that we think wisdom is that kind of artistry,

00:07:24.760 it's subjective and it's winging it, then you're absolutely right. It's mystical. But biblical

00:07:30.040 wisdom is the skill and the art, I would say, of applying God's word on the ground to particulars.

00:07:37.240 Yeah, exactly. And so that goes all the way back to Exodus. The artisans of the tabernacle did not

00:07:43.600 have the freedom to make it up as they went along. I mean, people who made it up having to do with

00:07:47.900 anything with the tabernacle got burnt or stoned if they're a prophet. It's right. But that's I

00:07:53.240 think you're absolutely right. Biblical wisdom is applying God's word. And so I'd love to have

00:07:58.060 that follow up conversation with Lehman and say, that's my understanding of wisdom. Of course,

00:08:02.400 the biblical law has to be applied with wisdom. Of course it's case law. It doesn't, it doesn't

00:08:07.740 apply to every single situation. You take biblical principles and then you apply them to the

00:08:12.840 particulars on the ground. Um, of course, but the question that I think you're pressing rightly is,

00:08:18.360 but where do we start? And we have to start with biblical principles. The word of God is our light.

00:08:23.860 It's our truth. Um, and if we don't start there, then yeah, we've got big problems.

00:08:28.140 That's good. Would you guys agree with this statement? I'll make a statement and see what

00:08:32.160 you guys take is so the civil law right we could divide the law into three basic groups ceremonial

00:08:37.420 civil and moral law the decalogue the ten commandments but we would say that the ceremonial

00:08:42.280 law is moral for israel they either obey or they don't there's morality that's intrinsically involved

00:08:48.000 in that but we would say ultimately the ceremonial law has been fulfilled in christ but when it comes

00:08:53.540 to the civil law even though that was unique to israel um would you guys agree that we would say

00:08:58.500 that it's not civil law and moral law,

00:09:00.780 or we divorce them and make them so separate,

00:09:02.880 but really we could look at the moral law,

00:09:04.380 the decalogue as the bedrock or the blueprints

00:09:07.220 and out of it, out of these laws,

00:09:10.880 like thou shall not murder,

00:09:12.080 which we would dig even deeper and say

00:09:13.640 that it's to esteem human life made in the image of God,

00:09:16.880 to protect it, not to do harm to our neighbor,

00:09:18.700 all those kinds of things.

00:09:19.920 And from that, you get a border on the roof of houses

00:09:24.940 so that people don't fall off.

00:09:26.340 You get all these different civil laws stemming from the moral law of God, the Decalogue.

00:09:32.980 And so with Israel, we would look at all these civil laws, and we're not saying that for America or Brazil or China that it's a one-to-one ratio.

00:09:42.520 I think what we're saying is that with the civil law, we do instead of one step, we do two.

00:09:46.760 We go from the civil law back to the moral law, and then the moral law applied with wisdom to our time and place.

00:09:53.860 Is that a good way to express it?

00:09:55.700 well well the i mean the westminster confession um is um says that um the the the particular

00:10:02.020 civil laws um have expired with the nation of israel except for the general equity thereof

00:10:08.260 and the 1689 yeah okay um so the um so basically i would say um i i think that's exactly i think

00:10:18.140 what you said i think i agree with um frequently people take general equity and then they mean

00:10:22.360 something kind of mystical by it right they say oh yeah general equity and then just sort of like

00:10:26.480 something up they wave their hands wave their hands and be like yeah and then just i don't know

00:10:30.060 what i don't know where they're going to get it from but general equity best i can tell is actually

00:10:34.620 was a something like a technical term that that was coming out of the western law tradition which

00:10:40.380 meant the moral principles behind the civil law so i don't uh and again you look at the the men

00:10:47.360 who wrote the Westminster Confession or the London Baptist Confession or the men who established

00:10:52.540 our country. I mean, they were the ones that wrote the words, you know, expired except for

00:10:59.480 the general equity thereof. And then what laws did they put on the books? Well, they had like

00:11:04.000 Sabbath breaking laws. I mean, they took the Old Testament law and they sought to apply it with

00:11:09.380 wisdom to their situation. And it doesn't mean they always got it right. But yeah, I think

00:11:13.940 something like what you're talking about is what is meant by general equity. The moral principles

00:11:17.420 embedded in the civil law are still binding on the nations of the earth. Paul quotes the Old

00:11:25.000 Testament law when he talks about paying pastors, do not muzzle an ox. Right. So that goes to kind

00:11:30.680 of Toby's general equity comments here that the authors of the New Testament had no problem

00:11:36.720 anchoring their principles and their um uh in book of church order in in old testament principles

00:11:45.800 and old testament law right and that's what paul was paul was doing there so i you know i think

00:11:49.840 those categories are helpful um but when you read through the old testament oftentimes you know

00:11:55.680 they'll they'll kind of go from a a ceremonial text to a civil text to a moral text you know

00:12:02.640 So it really does require knowing your Bible to be able to sort through this.

00:12:09.360 I would also just add, I think, for example, to add to Gabe's point is I think the Sabbath law, for example, the fourth commandment actually has all three categories at work.

00:12:21.180 So I think there is a there is a moral component because it goes all the way back to the foundation of the world, the way God made the world.

00:12:27.700 There was particular civil penalties that were put in place for the nation of Israel,

00:12:33.920 and there were ceremonial elements to it as well.

00:12:37.100 And so when you get to the New Testament, for example,

00:12:39.460 why does Paul feel free in Galatians and other places, for example, to say,

00:12:44.160 you know, why are you going back to the Sabbaths?

00:12:45.740 Why are you going back to the holy days and so on? 0.83

00:12:48.300 Well, that's the ceremonial law that's fulfilled in Jesus,

00:12:50.520 and the Judaizers were saying if you don't fulfill the ceremonial law,

00:12:53.300 you're not fully justified in Jesus.

00:12:54.760 So I think we stand with Paul dead on and say, yeah, don't go back to a ceremonial Sabbath.

00:13:00.700 The ceremonial Sabbath died in Jesus.

00:13:03.300 Partially, that's why we celebrate the New Testament Sabbath on Sunday, on the first day of the week. 0.59

00:13:07.740 It died and it rose again.

00:13:09.300 But there is still a moral Sabbath.

00:13:11.640 Hebrews 4 says the Sabbath remains for the people of God.

00:13:14.720 It's part of the Ten Commandments.

00:13:16.080 It goes back to the creation of the world.

00:13:17.620 And because of that, I think that nations are free to apply that moral load, moral law.

00:13:23.900 judiciously in civil law to this day um i i disagree with the blue laws that um that the

00:13:30.940 our ancestors tried to you know say you couldn't buy wine and beer on sunday um but there was one

00:13:37.260 thing that you should be able to buy on sunday i just don't understand that brothers and sisters

00:13:41.900 but but nevertheless i would say um you know it's actually written into our constitution that the

00:13:45.980 president has sundays off from um considering um legislation that's brought to him um and so i

00:13:50.960 think um wise civil magistrates ought to have ways in which they honor the lord's day i yeah i agree

00:13:57.140 with that though it's i know you were saying it in jest you know just quickly in passing in terms

00:14:02.160 of buying wine and beer and stuff like that but just to quickly put you guys on the spot because

00:14:06.240 i really am curious your answer so it's not a loaded question it's a genuine question this is

00:14:10.400 this is nehemiah nehemiah chapter 13 i really want to hear you guys response especially you toby on

00:14:15.920 this one so nehemiah chapter 13 starting verse 15 uh this is one of the texts that both the

00:14:21.220 westminster authors and the 1689 authors cite uh in terms of uh the sabbath day uh verse 15

00:14:27.660 in those days i saw judah um i saw in judah people treading wine press on the sabbath and bringing

00:14:33.400 in heaps of grain and loading them on donkeys and also wine grapes figs and all kinds of loads

00:14:38.660 which they brought into jerusalem on the sabbath day and i warned them on the day when they sold

00:14:43.660 food. Tyrians also who lived in the city brought in fish and all kinds of goods and sold them on

00:14:50.040 the Sabbath to the people of Judah and Jerusalem itself. Then I confronted the nobles of Judah and

00:14:55.120 said to them, what is this evil thing that you were doing profaning the Sabbath day? Did not your

00:15:00.400 fathers act in this way? And did not our God bring all this disaster on us and on this city? Now you

00:15:07.400 are bringing more wrath on Israel by profaning the Sabbath. As soon as it began to grow dark at the

00:15:12.960 gates of Jerusalem before the Sabbath, I commanded that the doors should be shut and gave orders that

00:15:17.520 they should not be opened until after the Sabbath. And I stationed some of my servants at the gates

00:15:22.720 that no load might be brought in on the Sabbath day. Then the merchants and sellers of all kinds

00:15:28.440 of wares lodged outside Jerusalem once or twice. But I warned them and said to them,

00:15:33.660 why do you lodge outside the wall? If you do so again, I will lay hands on you. From that time

00:15:39.300 on, they did not come on the Sabbath. Then I commanded the Levites that they should purify 1.00

00:15:43.600 themselves and come and guard the gates to keep the Sabbath day holy. Remember this also in my 0.99

00:15:48.620 favor, oh my God, and spare me according to the greatness of your steadfast love. So in my

00:15:53.800 assessment, that's one of the texts that's cited by the 1689 and the Westminster. And, you know,

00:15:59.100 but at the same time, I've been Sabbatarian for what, like 15 minutes, you know, so I want to be

00:16:03.980 humble and admit that, you know, I, I, my, my family and I have adopted Sabbatarian convictions

00:16:08.920 for about two years now. And so a little longer than 15 minutes, but not much. And I look at guys

00:16:13.580 who've been Sabbatarian for 30 years and they go out to eat after church on Sunday. And I don't

00:16:17.640 want to be so arrogant as to presume that I understand something that these faithful

00:16:21.080 individuals do not. And yet I've also heard arguments on, on the other side saying that,

00:16:26.540 you know, we want to release our servants on, you know, you or your servant, your male servant,

00:16:31.000 your female servant um and and that by patroning certain places the marketplace we're forcing

00:16:36.540 people to work and i know the period like thomas watson i just finished his book on the 10

00:16:40.220 commandments and thomas watson would have had a fit you know if we were going to the marketplace

00:16:44.820 on sunday so what what is help me go out to eat on sunday with a clear conscience

00:16:50.460 well well who's serving you pagans

00:16:54.240 yeah so um but those were pagans outside the wall of jerusalem that that's that's the difficulty

00:17:01.100 so so my take is you actually have again i would go back to i think i believe the sabbath command

00:17:06.220 has all three elements going on all through the laws and there's different elements of it you've

00:17:10.940 got moral um civil and ceremonial going on and and that fine and the uh and and and so and that

00:17:19.360 ceremonial, you know, and it's all bound up again with them being able to be in the land.

00:17:24.920 And if they're not keeping the law completely, if they're not being faithful to the covenant

00:17:29.360 that they kept, that they made with God, they're going to be kicked out of the land. You've got

00:17:33.740 them coming back into the land now under Nehemiah. So there's multiple elements here, 0.95

00:17:38.580 but let me just try to parse it really quickly. Number one is I believe that the moral principle

00:17:42.320 of not doing your normal daily labors, so they're trying to bring a normal marketplace

00:17:47.320 and on the Sabbath. And I believe that Christian Sabbatarians should be against that. So we should 1.00

00:17:52.880 not have our normal marketplace going on, our normal daily business going on. At the same time,

00:17:59.140 I don't believe that we are under the same ceremonial law such that, as Paul says in Romans

00:18:06.200 14, people can esteem every day alike or one day differently, and that's not a divisive matter.

00:18:13.620 So I take that to mean that Sunday is not ceremonially different than any other day of

00:18:18.940 the week. I believe it is the Lord's Day, the day that Jesus rose from the dead, and it is our

00:18:24.060 Christian Sabbath. But what we find in the Old Covenant is that Sabbath was one of the feast

00:18:29.600 days, but then any number of feast days, if you had a feast day, it created a Sabbath day. It

00:18:35.520 wasn't ceremonially different, but nevertheless, it became a Sabbath day, or it became a feast day.

00:18:40.280 I believe that the Christian Sabbath, the Lord's Day, Sunday, is the Christian Sabbath, but it's

00:18:44.900 not a ceremonial Sabbath. It's sanctified by our worship, and it's not the other way around,

00:18:50.420 like it was in the Old Covenant. But that means that I don't think we're under the exact same

00:18:55.400 ceremonial regulations as the Old Covenant people. Now, the principle stands, the moral principle is

00:19:01.180 take a day off and give everybody a day off. So I think of this like, I think one of the best ways

00:19:06.480 to think about it is like christmas or thanksgiving nobody wants to go to work on christmas or

00:19:10.620 thanksgiving yeah nobody everybody wants to shut down everyone's have a few hours as possible

00:19:14.940 at the same time we also know that the sabbath principle is not meant to crush the poor it's not

00:19:21.440 meant to crush the needy it's not meant to crush them it's it's the travelers the travelers and

00:19:26.560 it's meant to provide rest maybe for someone who has to travel maybe for emergencies so we already

00:19:32.380 make example exceptions in the in the confessions for works of necessity for example so i want you

00:19:37.740 know the cops and the firemen and the and the hospitals and mom who's cooking the meal and i

00:19:42.440 want to add to that i think sometimes we can be a little bit um cranky about it but i want to say

00:19:46.960 if somebody's traveling or their car broke down and they need a place to say or they need to buy

00:19:52.560 some lunch napa auto parts need to open or or if if somebody came through town and whatever the

00:19:57.620 the plans fell through and and you suddenly need to provide for them um i what in my ideal

00:20:03.820 sabbatarian society again i would think of it kind of like christmas or thanksgiving where

00:20:07.360 usually you have very limited hours everybody's trying to go home everybody's trying to give as

00:20:12.040 much time off as possible but maybe in my ideal sabbatarian community you'd have a rotation of

00:20:17.720 grocery stores that would have limited hours once a month or once every six weeks so most of the

00:20:22.680 time most of them are off but one of them's open in town because of emergencies and mom forgets

00:20:28.100 something and you got to run to the store because you have extra guests that land in town i think

00:20:32.060 that's fully in keeping with keeping sabbath right um and so i would i would want to say amen to what

00:20:38.220 nehemiah did i think civil magistrates ought to have laws in place that would um encourage

00:20:44.220 sabbath keeping right but i also think that sometimes um our puritan forefathers who are

00:20:49.460 better than men than me, uh, nevertheless had a few extra eggs in the omelet. And, and I would,

00:20:54.540 I would want them to ease up a bit because I think that actually to give rest, we need to have a

00:20:59.340 little bit of room to maneuver. So what I would say in terms of your binding your conscience about

00:21:02.780 going to lunch on, on Sundays, I would say for myself, um, I, I ordinarily don't go out to lunch

00:21:09.120 on Sunday. However, I don't think it's a sin. If on occasion you decide to give your family rest

00:21:15.720 by taking them out um to a meal i would want again a sort of similar kind of rotation for

00:21:20.420 restaurants on sunday or hotels hotels and that kind of thing where occasionally um as need you

00:21:26.420 know maybe you just had a baby last night and it's like who's going to cook dinner and whatever or

00:21:30.740 you have guests and i want the opportunity to take them out to a restaurant to give rest but i would

00:21:36.260 in my ideal world that restaurant would only be open you know once every eight eight weeks or

00:21:40.840 something and there'd be a rotation of them so we could help serve there's a sabbath rest still

00:21:44.760 taking place amongst the restaurants exactly so it's culturally we're all resting and and again

00:21:48.880 like christmas or thanksgiving everything's pretty much shut down but if you need something you could

00:21:53.300 still go find it so joel you we won't stone you if you happen to you know go to salt lake barbecue

00:21:59.060 on sunday you know are the egyptians serving because i don't mind plundering the egyptians

00:22:05.280 on sunday a little bit you know gabe you were gonna say something i just said it yeah that's

00:22:16.240 it that was my joke that was my joke i i get it well the beauty for in my case is that we we do

00:22:23.280 a sabbath dinner every saturday evening for all the members in our church and they come over

00:22:27.360 because we're you know we're church planning we're small at this point so people come over and i'm

00:22:30.760 you know i'm smoking meat you know all day long sometimes start friday night if i've got a brisket

00:22:35.000 or something like that, and our doctrine enforces us to feast,

00:22:41.940 and so we always make more than enough food, and we don't ration it out.

00:22:46.940 And so there's always baskets left over, if you will,

00:22:51.040 which means Sunday afternoon after church, because it's at my house,

00:22:54.900 I get to keep most of the leftovers.

00:22:56.920 So when my family comes home, all it takes for us is mom gets lunch off,

00:23:05.000 she doesn't have to make anything. I just go over to the microwave and we get brisket and ribs and

00:23:09.560 things like that. So lots of us do the exact same thing here in Moscow. Yep. Cool. All right,

00:23:15.700 well, let's go back to the heart motivation for a lot of Christians. I don't want to unnecessarily

00:23:20.220 pick on Jonathan Lehman, although I'm perfectly comfortable picking on him a little bit, but

00:23:23.980 he represents, you know, it's not unique to him. That's what I mean. It's not like he's the only

00:23:28.960 one. He represents a large group of Christians. And so, you know, at the end of the day, God alone

00:23:33.820 sees the heart, we look at the outward appearance. But there is a sense, I always want to remind

00:23:37.460 Christians of this, you know, it's like, well, you can't judge my inner motives. But Jesus does

00:23:41.680 talk about judging a tree by its fruit. And the Bible does say that out of the abundance of the

00:23:46.040 heart, you know, the mouth speaks. And so we can't judge definitively, you know, infallibly the

00:23:51.840 internal motives of the heart. And often it's best for us to leave those things to God and just

00:23:56.960 strictly judge the fruit itself and the actions and the words, the deeds of an individual. But

00:24:01.860 there is, when there's a pattern, I guess is my point, when a pattern begins to emerge

00:24:06.560 in word and or deed with an individual, I think we can begin to suspect certain things

00:24:13.620 in the person's heart.

00:24:15.120 And we want to be careful about levying accusations, but I do think we can exercise humble Christian

00:24:20.600 discernment and say, this does seem to be a motive.

00:24:24.760 So I'm not making a definitive statement, but I am saying it does seem as though Jonathan

00:24:28.480 Lehman, and again, him representing a much larger group of many Christians, him being just one

00:24:33.460 example, because he was on your show, he's a good one to use. But it seems as though there may be

00:24:39.020 some kind of heart motive, some kind of incentive, something that they're guarding,

00:24:45.960 that they're protecting by not wanting to just say, you know what, this is maybe a lot simpler

00:24:51.120 than we're making it. Maybe it's not so mystical. God wrote a book and the book actually applies.

00:24:55.760 what do you guys think that what is it that people are trying to protect what is the motive

00:25:01.940 there and we don't even have to say it's his motive but you made that way too complicated

00:25:05.280 that question all right go ahead because i really do think it's just pure ignorance

00:25:09.780 i think that these people are ignorant of god's word and and they're probably if there's a

00:25:15.300 motivation behind it it's to cover up that ignorance they don't know what to do man the 0.87

00:25:19.660 social justice movement came in here and ransacked the christian evangelicals because they don't know

00:25:25.060 what to do they don't have any understanding of god's word to be able to apply it to the situation

00:25:31.080 well but they've been taught to unhitch the old testament from the new testament yes and so now

00:25:34.960 they're running around like where are clothes that they were in that thing that you unhitch

00:25:38.400 that's why you run around here naked you know and so well and so i think what they realize is like

00:25:44.420 wait we don't have on any clothes what do we do and so they're and the social justice we're like

00:25:48.740 here how about these how about these and what do they do they put them on they're like oh that

00:25:52.140 seems like wisdom right and so i think i don't think you know their intentions and all this i

00:25:59.180 again i don't i'm not even going to make that assumption of what's going on there i just think

00:26:03.900 that they're ignorant and the last thing that people want to do in a situation like this is

00:26:08.480 repent and that's what god is when you realize you come to a situation and you need help and

00:26:13.340 you need wisdom repent lord i should have you know that's one thing i really got to say about

00:26:17.800 Tom Askell when we started making the film by what standard in 2019 and all this stuff started

00:26:22.820 coming up and and he I remember the first time we went to his house at the conference and I

00:26:27.580 interviewed him and he was like man I I didn't see this coming I didn't see what was going on

00:26:32.480 and at the end of the film he sits up here and says brothers we need to repent because we have

00:26:38.880 been played we hadn't seen the things that were going on right and so I think that there is so

00:26:43.620 much pride and arrogance if there's anything. Because of the ignorance, the last thing they

00:26:48.380 want to do is say, we were wrong. We should have been operating and practicing God's word

00:26:53.820 all the way up until now so that when this hit, we knew exactly how to operate. And that's what

00:26:59.100 I think it is. It's pride and arrogance and not wanting to repent that they haven't been

00:27:02.560 in God's word the way that they should have and applying to the situation.

00:27:06.360 So you would chalk this one up real quick to Chesterton, right? Never attribute to malice

00:27:11.380 what can easily be explained by stupidity you know or ignorance and so you're saying that the 0.99

00:27:16.100 motive that there is a motive but the motive is to protect the the reputation the motive is to 0.99

00:27:21.420 not have to walk it back not wanting to acknowledge hey we we missed this one well no one and nobody

00:27:27.600 wants to admit that they just don't know they don't have answers they just don't want they 0.91

00:27:30.840 don't want to in today's era ignorant that you know i mean and men in particular i mean men don't

00:27:35.420 like to say i don't know but don't you think there's also like a certain amount of embarrassment

00:27:38.820 that's what i'm saying that's exactly right but where you know i don't want to defend the text

00:27:45.100 where um it talks about slavery i don't want to defend the text where now now homosexuality i

00:27:51.260 don't even want to defend those if you're gonna go there then i'm gonna say like this 0.55

00:27:54.540 doug wilson can't be right like if there's anything he can't be right right 30 40 years

00:28:02.400 of planning educational institutions seeing what was coming talking about that all this was going

00:28:06.460 to hinge the play on christianity was going to hinge on how we understood and afraid to talk

00:28:11.420 about biblical slavery doug wilson can't be right right right so we got to make sure that can't

00:28:16.940 but yeah that's just that's just narrowing in on the point right it's one thing to admit that god 0.96

00:28:21.160 was right right it's another thing to admit that doug wilson kick you in the mouth no no i think

00:28:32.640 the the uh the other thing though joel is i i i think we have uh churches full of unbelievers

00:28:42.380 so i i i think we i think we have a nation full of um people who don't know jesus i think i think

00:28:51.560 we have uh i saw i saw somebody uh sharing this over the weekend with reformation day

00:28:56.560 Maybe I'm time dating this recording, but the somebody saying that the modern American evangelical church is in a worse state than the Roman Catholic Church was when the Reformation started. 0.78

00:29:09.000 And I think there's a strong argument for that.

00:29:11.600 I think we are full of just as much mysticism and superstition and corruption in the modern evangelical church. 0.78

00:29:17.940 I'm thinking the whole thing, not just, you know, the whole, you know, born again, Christianity, whatever, you know, in a worse place, in a worse place than Roman Catholicism.

00:29:26.560 Um, which, but I think, you know, we, the reason why, uh, America is in the shape that it's in

00:29:32.320 is because we, we have lost our saltiness. We've lost our light. Jesus said, you are the light of

00:29:38.840 the world. Why is it so dark? Because the, because despite the fact that we have, um,

00:29:43.260 millions of professing Christians, they have no light, they have no light. And it's, and so I 0.94

00:29:50.440 think we have leaders, um, who on the one hand really ought to know better in certain ways, 0.97

00:29:55.160 But I think even they've been, they're ignorant in certain ways. They were trained in certain 0.89

00:30:00.380 seminaries that gave them certain kinds of blinders that told them not to ask certain

00:30:03.980 kinds of questions and not to look in certain dark corners. And so they've got these blinders

00:30:07.960 and they teach what they know and they do their best. And they're teaching hundreds and thousands

00:30:12.800 of people who don't know Jesus. So of course they don't know their Bibles. They think that

00:30:20.440 knowing Jesus is going to a church, a service. I'm not even going to dignify it with the name

00:30:24.500 church um where you know there's a rock band and the strobe lights and smoke machines and they get

00:30:29.540 into this um mystical fervor um they have an emotional spiritual orgasm and then they go home

00:30:36.460 for another week and they think that's christianity and no wonder it translates into absolutely

00:30:42.420 nothing during the week no wonder it doesn't change their lives at all um that's that's i 0.89

00:30:48.980 mean talk about ignorance it's not just the ignorance it's not like christian ignorance 0.86

00:30:51.620 So some of that. Yeah. Yeah. But I think part of the problem is they don't even know God because no wonder they don't know the word. 0.72

00:30:56.600 You know, it's funny. I was just talking just to jump on that.

00:30:59.220 You talked about they go to seminary and then they get this four or six year seminary for the most part.

00:31:04.920 Three. OK, three. But before that, they had 12 years of government education.

00:31:08.740 That's true. 12 years of government education that has given them particular lenses to even view their theological training in.

00:31:15.360 Right. Right. And they have to go through rehab first.

00:31:19.320 none of seminaries go take them they need a detox um and then maybe they can do something and so

00:31:26.240 the the i was just talking to somebody else about this one of the things that institutions do

00:31:31.160 is they um make men soft so that they operate easily inside of these institutions they remove

00:31:37.280 the sharp edges and so you have 12 years of a certain type of education that has made you

00:31:42.140 effeminate right what do you think is going to happen now that you get to seminary you're going

00:31:46.160 to get all that back? What does a seminary education start to do? It starts to help encourage

00:31:50.520 that in one way or another so that your education doesn't give you sharp edges anymore to be

00:31:54.840 effective. And we saw how effective these men were when 2020 came along. So we became

00:32:01.580 effeminized and institutionalized because of this type of education, which again, go back

00:32:06.180 40 years ago, someone saw this. And if you want to finish the whole circle back to Joel asking

00:32:11.800 about motivations why not theonomy well again that would take balls yeah and they've been cut

00:32:17.280 off i mean that that would that would take courage that would take a backbone that would mean

00:32:20.980 real real quick on the balls comment just to pick up on that in light of theonomy and the general

00:32:27.800 equity of civil laws but also there is a sense of you know ceremonial laws maybe pointing to

00:32:33.300 something deeper and the ball comment that you made is there something to the fact that a man 0.93

00:32:38.360 cannot enter the tabernacle if his testicles have been crushed toby yeah is there a general 0.97

00:32:46.040 equity there you know that maybe maybe should be applied today sure leave it to a baptist 0.98

00:32:51.720 you're gonna tell me how that works out come back with some information

00:32:56.260 i want to know how you i want to know your exegetical i'm gonna see your exegetical work

00:33:00.260 on that one i'm just saying if we're talking about the general equity of god's law and we're

00:33:04.940 talking about balls and it just makes me think maybe god was up to something when you know there's

00:33:09.240 a ceremonial reason but maybe there's maybe there's a metaphor there well i mean this is the 0.86

00:33:13.800 thing like i mean nobody wants to preach through leviticus nobody nobody wants to preach these

00:33:18.620 passages because then you end up talking about things like this and somebody thinks that's in

00:33:23.640 your bible the pastors are just being crass when no like it's in the bible like it's in the bible

00:33:30.400 It's in God's word.

00:33:31.940 I mean, if you don't have to touch on these issues,

00:33:34.720 then you're not preaching God's word.

00:33:36.560 That's right.

00:33:36.920 And I mean, there we are.

00:33:40.520 Yep.

00:33:41.500 All right, well, let's go ahead and shift gears now.

00:33:43.620 Oh, you know, the last thing I was gonna say,

00:33:45.040 I think you guys will amen this,

00:33:46.380 but as far as giving our servants a rest on the Lord's day,

00:33:49.260 if there's any application for that,

00:33:51.280 wouldn't it be our fellow Christian church members

00:33:54.520 giving them a rest from their service

00:33:57.140 that prohibits them, that takes them into another room

00:34:00.520 of the church building where they're effectively barred

00:34:03.560 from the Lord's table because they're in children's ministry.

00:34:06.660 Isn't that maybe the first place that we should start

00:34:08.680 by giving all of our servants a rest

00:34:11.700 with family integrated worship?

00:34:13.680 I just, I don't know.

00:34:14.520 I thought about that.

00:34:15.040 Let's not excommunicate the little ones.

00:34:16.500 Yeah, exactly.

00:34:17.020 Go back to the kids if you have children.

00:34:19.120 You're going to get in trouble with that question, Joel.

00:34:21.800 Well, I feel like it's a good start

00:34:24.760 just to at least invite the children to worship.

00:34:26.860 I like where you're going with this, Joe.

00:34:28.340 I like where you, you just keep going.

00:34:30.960 You just, go ahead, finish.

00:34:33.120 I enjoyed this.

00:34:34.800 You're almost there. 1.00

00:34:36.120 Run home, run home, Baptist. 1.00

00:34:37.780 Keep all my trust you want to give him. 1.00

00:34:45.360 That's great.

00:34:45.920 All right.

00:34:46.500 Okay, so, all right, let's shift gears now.

00:34:48.080 So, all that I think has been a really great,

00:34:50.620 helpful framework and backdrop,

00:34:52.080 but all that being said, America, you know,

00:34:54.940 i think doug has said and i think you guys would agree that you know people say is america a

00:34:58.980 christian nation he said well it was but it's a nation that currently is in the process of

00:35:02.860 apostatizing and and so if that's true and and i and i i believe that that's true but with that

00:35:09.080 being said we believe the church is going to win right everybody believes every christian believes

00:35:13.660 christ is going to win i've i've you know as i have conversations with fellow brothers and sisters

00:35:18.200 in christ with different different positions on eschatology you know i one of the ways that i've

00:35:22.700 tried to define it simply for people is, do we believe that Christ is going to win despite the

00:35:27.960 church or that Christ is going to win through his church? That the church is the battering ram of

00:35:33.400 Christ who is its head that is ultimately, you know, ramming up against the gates of hell and

00:35:39.080 that they're not going to prevail. And it's this offensive weapon. Hell is on the ropes. And it's

00:35:44.360 not just that Jesus is going to win in the bottom of the ninth after the church is battered and

00:35:48.160 bruised, you know, and Jesus wins despite his failing bride, but that he's going to win through

00:35:53.220 his bride. And so all that being said, my point is, I know you guys are post-mill. And so we

00:35:57.140 believe not only that Christ is going to win, but we believe in a victorious church, triumphant and

00:36:02.900 militant. But what about America? You know, so Christ wins, the church wins. Does America,

00:36:10.660 does America win or does America lose? You know, like I told you guys before we started recording,

00:36:16.380 I've been reading this book. It's called The Fate of Empires. It's just a collection of

00:36:19.860 a couple of essays. And he tries to glean wisdom by doing, instead of just focusing history on

00:36:25.860 one particular culture or nation, he does a global world history. And he tracks it back for,

00:36:31.160 I think, all the way to like 3,500 BC and talks about empires, the Ottoman Empire,

00:36:35.660 the Persians, the Medes, the Assyrian Empire, and says that each of these empires, on average,

00:36:40.180 lasted about 250 years like it's it's actually shocking how how close to that 250 year mark all

00:36:47.560 of them got and he stages you know he outlines stages and the last stage is a stage of decadence

00:36:52.580 and some of the characteristics of decadence that's right before their ultimate demise is 1.00

00:36:58.440 materialism is one of them but one of them also is an influx of foreigners and the welfare state 0.93

00:37:05.500 becoming an obsession you know and so and so he's mapping um also just uh at that point the nation 0.94

00:37:11.840 is has the most defense the most um affluence and prosperity and militia and all these things that

00:37:17.620 they've ever had but but what he says is that the will of the people is no longer there to fight

00:37:23.720 whereas whereas the founders even though they had nothing what they did have is they had guts

00:37:28.540 and and a desire for glory and for all these kinds of things and so anyways america you know

00:37:32.980 the math is pretty, pretty easy to figure out. We're right around that 250 year mark.

00:37:37.760 What do you guys think? When the whole pandemic started in 2020, I remember we had Doug on our

00:37:44.620 show and we were interviewing about the pandemic and everything. And Doug quoted Hebrews chapter

00:37:50.380 12 verses 27 to me. And it was kind of like hearing that verse all over again when he quoted it to me

00:37:57.460 in that context. And it says, this phrase once more indicates that the removal of things that

00:38:02.120 are shaken, that is, the things that have been made, in order that the things—let me make sure

00:38:08.320 I read that correctly with the comments and everything. Let me reread that. This phrase,

00:38:14.760 yet once more, indicates the removal of things that are shaken, that is, the things that have

00:38:20.520 been made, in order that the things that cannot be shaken may remain. Therefore, let us be graceful

00:38:26.920 for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer God acceptable worship

00:38:33.040 with reverence and awe, for our God is a consuming fire. So when God acts and when God works,

00:38:39.320 he shakes things, and he shakes things that need to be shaken, and that will go away.

00:38:44.120 And it says, and Hebrews says, so that we can receive God's kingdom. And so I think that

00:38:51.140 God is shaking our world in ways that he hasn't done it for decades. And I think that God,

00:38:59.240 you brought up the point earlier that God is, does he save through the church or around the

00:39:04.820 church? And God saves through the church. He saves through his bride. And as the church disciples

00:39:13.740 the world, God is saving through the church. He's not getting rid of his church. He's building the

00:39:16.880 church, he's building the kingdom here on earth. And so America could go away or could not, God can

00:39:22.280 do whatever he wants there. But one thing that's not going to be shaken is his kingdom. Now, I do

00:39:27.180 think we are apostatizing here in America. And I think the church is largely apostatizing America

00:39:33.320 for reasons that we've discussed here on the show already. And so, but what I don't want to do is

00:39:39.240 preach, you know, some sort of Christian nationalism, you know, some sort of patriotic

00:39:45.100 nationalism to our country saying we never want America to go away. We think that if America goes

00:39:52.040 away, the world is doomed. That's not how God works. It's what every empire thought. It's what

00:39:57.160 every empire thought. And so I want God to save the world. I want God to save my friends here.

00:40:02.880 And I want God to save Idaho. I want God to save Washington, D.C. But if we think that America

00:40:10.940 is the shining light to the, to the world. I want nothing to do with that religion. Um, so 1.00

00:40:17.440 I would, I would say that, um, yeah, we're post-mill. We believe that, you know, I think

00:40:22.480 I'm out of full Jesus before Joel. Um, but if apostle Paul, you know, when apostle Paul,

00:40:27.700 when Jesus died, there's what about 500 Christians here on this earth. Um, and then when apostle

00:40:32.940 Paul died, you know, maybe 20,000, I don't know. It would be kind of an interesting number to try

00:40:39.200 to figure out 20 000 50 000 whatever it is um if apostle paul came back now and walked around here

00:40:45.400 in the united states and saw all these church buildings everywhere um regardless if he was

00:40:51.980 post mill back then he would be post mill now it's like there's churches everywhere everywhere

00:41:00.280 there's christians and and paul i mean he was like ministering to churches in corinth i mean

00:41:04.840 he knew they're messed up yeah i was gonna say he might beat a few of them out of the churches

00:41:08.460 like we're gonna reintroduce some people to this building but the point is god is working

00:41:13.200 and sometimes we get pretty discouraged because we see all these physical um challenges before us

00:41:20.220 tyrants um petty laws taxation whatever um but god is really working in this world and and we just

00:41:27.360 gotta you know trust in his word and the scriptures and kind of take a step back and and look at what

00:41:32.620 god has done from the resurrection of christ until now that's pretty encouraging yeah yeah right um

00:41:38.440 now i'm just gonna be straight up america's gonna die it is it's gonna die when um it's dying now

00:41:45.940 and so it's happening it's like this cancerous and you know here's the deal the reason that

00:41:52.980 scares people is because they don't believe in resurrection yeah um god is using and will

00:41:58.120 continue to use empires to be fertilizer for the kingdom that's what he's doing and so why are you

00:42:04.640 afraid of it when you see it. Don't be afraid of that. This is God. Listen, God, if you don't know

00:42:11.600 the story and you don't know who's telling it, then you're going to be afraid. This is God's

00:42:16.240 story. He's telling it. And if you're reading your Bible, you know the trajectory of this story.

00:42:21.060 So when you see these things happen, you realize, we were just talking about that, when Israel was

00:42:26.100 in Egypt and God was judging Egypt, the judgments were going across Egypt, but Israel still had

00:42:33.360 light when there was no light there. There was light in Goshen. So when we see what's going on

00:42:39.060 in the world and we see God's judgment coming down, Christians need to be faithful. They need

00:42:43.920 to honor God in what they're doing. They need to stay close to their worship, raise their children,

00:42:46.860 do the things that they know to do, because God is going to use that to launch them out or launch

00:42:53.460 the next thing as for the benefit of the kingdom. They left Egypt and Egypt was bankrupt and broke,

00:42:59.980 but that money didn't just dissolve right it went somewhere to create and build the kingdom that

00:43:05.780 they were moving to and so whatever to create and build an idol unfortunately that golden calf came

00:43:13.860 from somewhere and and the tabernacle come on you're right yeah come on that calf didn't last

00:43:19.360 that long it was and those people didn't last that long either you know i'm saying so there's

00:43:24.280 a purification process again you're just making my point but that's right some things were shaking

00:43:28.140 I don't I think what happens is that people have made America the kingdom.

00:43:32.040 And so when they see America take his, they're like, oh, no, the kingdom of God is under assault.

00:43:37.000 It's like, no, no, America as an idol is being torn down.

00:43:42.560 And that worldview that is not honoring God is becoming consistent with itself is eating itself to death.

00:43:47.580 And those things that cannot be shaken will remain.

00:43:50.820 And I know we shouldn't lose heart in that.

00:43:53.620 It's disappointing to see a lot of things that we work for fall apart.

00:43:56.440 But if those things aren't honoring God, then take it all, Jesus.

00:43:59.520 Take it all.

00:44:00.560 We don't want any of that.

00:44:01.900 Clean out all the cancer.

00:44:02.860 And that's what he's doing.

00:44:03.980 So I'm grateful for America.

00:44:06.780 I want America to be one of those things that helps support the kingdom of God.

00:44:11.760 But if America is going to turn its back on God, then thus to all dragons.

00:44:16.980 Yeah, so be it.

00:44:18.280 You know?

00:44:18.780 And so I'm on this.

00:44:21.960 I know where the story is going to end.

00:44:23.400 I know the story that God is telling.

00:44:24.820 And I know my responsibility in this story is to be a faithful father, a faithful husband, a faithful man who fears God and honors God in everything he does.

00:44:33.000 And that's the trajectory I'm on.

00:44:34.520 And I believe that through that, God will keep his people as the whole thing is being turned into fertilizer for the kingdom.

00:44:41.540 I really like that image of fertilizer.

00:44:44.240 I really do.

00:44:45.280 I like that.

00:44:46.660 And I also it works really well, because I think what happens is if you go back through history, I'm not read the book that Joel's talking about here.

00:44:53.040 But but I think each of the empires, each of the kingdoms and nations that God raised up in many respects, they did go down in and become fertilizer for the next nation.

00:45:04.820 Yeah. And and and they took, you know, like people talk about the Roman Empire is this amalgamation.

00:45:10.840 Like, what is Rome and what is the Roman Empire?

00:45:12.680 Well, it's like this, it's partially sort of Greek culture, but it's combined with this new thing that's Roman. But even the Greeks were drawing off of Persian and Babylonian culture. And then you've got this, you know, this Jewish Hebraic culture that's also sort of under the surface in various ways.

00:45:31.400 And so you have even early Christians speculating that maybe Plato learned from Moses and these kind of things because they're drawing off of things that are actually quite biblical in certain ways.

00:45:41.380 And but then you have, you know, the Rome falls, it goes into the, you know, into into Europe.

00:45:46.820 And what is, you know, what is the British Empire?

00:45:50.520 But sort of Rome kind of dissolved into the Western European tribes and then resurrected.

00:45:59.440 and then you have you know sort of this this new form of feudalism in the british empire but then

00:46:05.940 as that's dying you have that old feudalism that old roman greek philosophy mixed with um christian

00:46:13.640 covenantal thinking and british sensibilities and where does it come back to life in america

00:46:19.240 yeah i mean that's that's that's the american empire and so it's like you know god gives these

00:46:24.920 good gifts. They're used and enjoyed and they do good things for the people. And the kingdom is

00:46:31.460 advancing in every stage. The kingdom's not being taken down. But then you're right, the outward

00:46:38.420 form gets shaken and it goes down into the dust. It becomes the fertilizer for the next thing that

00:46:45.240 God's doing. And the last thing I'll just add to this is, you know, the book of Revelation is a

00:46:48.540 helpful way, I think, to answer the question too. And it ties back into your point about

00:46:53.500 how the church is used. But the book of Revelation, in many respects, is the story of the effect of

00:46:59.080 the church's worship on the history of the world. Focused on the first century, but at the end,

00:47:04.740 it kind of, I think, is looking down the corridors of time. In the first century, as the Christians 0.99

00:47:10.520 worshipped, what's going on in heaven is then going down on earth. So, as you begin, you got 1.00

00:47:16.920 the exhortations of the seven churches, and then John begins to have this revelation, this vision

00:47:22.860 of what's going on in heaven, but what it's all, it's all bookmarked by these punctuations of

00:47:28.860 worship. The elders, the angels, the people, they fall down in worship. And then what happens?

00:47:34.160 Bowls are poured out, incense is offered, and it goes on the earth and the judgments of God fall

00:47:39.460 on the earth. And so you have worship is the battering ram. The church is the battering ram.

00:47:46.240 It is part of the leaven that builds up nations, but then also over time, it's as the nation

00:47:51.940 turns away from God or withers or whatever, God brings it down and raises up new nations. But

00:47:58.400 what's kind of cool and glorious is at the very end, despite all that, Revelation 21, 23 says,

00:48:06.320 and the city, this is the new Jerusalem, had no need of the sun, neither of the moon to shine in

00:48:10.920 it, for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. Verse 24, and the nations

00:48:16.360 of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it, and the kings of the earth do bring their

00:48:21.580 glory and honor into it and the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day for there shall be no

00:48:26.840 night there and they shall bring the glory and honor of the nations into it and so um and i

00:48:34.260 don't know you know how does that work exactly i'm not sure but at the very least i would say

00:48:38.600 as the nations rise um there are certain gifts that the nations give the world um that are are

00:48:46.480 good gifts right last forever yeah and there are gifts that that america has given the world

00:48:52.980 that will last forever that they're good gifts they're solid gifts they're solid things that

00:48:57.880 can't be shaken um in the providence of god and so that america it will will last forever yeah

00:49:04.900 because it was true real um solid gifts it was real justice it was some vision of some kind of

00:49:10.680 sensibility some gift i think the same thing of of england i'm thinking geneva i think the same

00:49:15.760 thing of geneva um you know uh in uh last battle lewis um um talks about you know sort of narnia

00:49:22.260 the the new narnia um as it's it's like england but it's like a glorified england so in the new

00:49:29.540 heavens and new earth i think all of the good gifts of all of the nations he made texas last

00:49:34.700 forever including texas deep in the heart of texas no that's good toby i i really appreciate

00:49:44.100 that. And I think, you know, I know you guys will agree with this, but, you know, the coming of

00:49:47.720 Christ, you know, this massive divide in terms of human history, you know, when you think of

00:49:53.600 oppressive nations, empires, you know, that ruled the known globe at the time, but were a force of 0.96

00:50:00.720 great wickedness and evil, you know, Babylon, right? When you think of that, it's like, in the 1.00

00:50:05.940 coming of Jesus, in the last 2,000 years, we've had atrocious things happen. I mean, millions have

00:50:11.300 died underneath communism. And you have your Stalins, you have your Hitlers and things like

00:50:17.240 that. But the big thing that stands out to me is that they ultimately fail. Hitler was atrocious,

00:50:25.380 but the Third Reich can be measured in just a very short period of time. But there's nothing 0.65

00:50:30.920 in the last 2,000 years really comparable to Babylon. And so in Christ coming, he tells the

00:50:36.540 parable. You have to plunder the house. You need to go in and bind the strong man. And so in his

00:50:41.140 life, death and resurrection, being able to bind the strong man, take Satan and bind him, no longer

00:50:45.480 able to deceive the nations. And something spiritually, something in the heavens took place

00:50:51.340 and poured out. There's an effect here on earth. And so I don't think we're going to witness the

00:50:58.880 long-term lasting lifespan of heinous, wicked, evil nations because of what Christ has done.

00:51:05.880 No, not anymore.

00:51:07.000 But I do think that it's possible.

00:51:09.280 Yeah, exactly, not anymore.

00:51:10.640 But my point is I do think it's possible if a nation would humble themselves

00:51:17.060 and submit to God, I think that God will exalt those people

00:51:20.880 as long as they're willing to be obedient.

00:51:24.020 And so I think what's – my point is I think what's unique about America,

00:51:27.520 because I would give a hearty amen to everything that you said, Knox,

00:51:30.320 and we don't need America.

00:51:32.360 And what God's going to do, everything's going to be for his glory

00:51:35.160 for the good of those people who love him and are called according to his name. So America's

00:51:39.360 exaltation or demise will be to the benefit of the church. Either way. And so we believe that. 0.88

00:51:46.640 But my point is, America is unique in the sense that I feel like in many ways, it may be one of

00:51:52.700 the closest expressions that we've ever had. And I think Doug Wilson even said, with Christendom,

00:51:58.180 whether it's Constantine, stuff like that, the failure is not, okay, well, these Spanish crusades

00:52:03.260 or whatever. That was a bad idea. No, we need Christendom 2.0. And these were bugs rather than

00:52:09.400 features, and let's work them out. And then we'll get 3.0. But eventually, this leaven is going to

00:52:14.700 permeate the whole batch of dough. This little mustard seed is going to be a tree that offers

00:52:19.560 shade to the beasts of the field all over the earth, and the birds of the air are going to

00:52:23.340 find refuge and rest in his branches. And Christ is building the kingdom, and it is going to have,

00:52:29.120 his kingdom is going to have a material physical, because we're not Gnostics, it's going to have

00:52:33.620 an earthly expression. And it is going to be legislated through laws, just laws that glorify 0.88

00:52:40.720 the king in heaven and demand obedience from his subjects here on earth. And so all of these things

00:52:47.260 are going to occur. And the idea that God might use a nation or nations for a prolonged period

00:52:54.060 of time, I don't, my point is, I don't think the 250 year mold has to be the fate of every nation.

00:53:00.520 I agree. And so I guess I just, I just want to say, so we don't, we don't need America. Our hope

00:53:04.540 is not in America. But it is possible. America, Christians in America, we don't have to just roll

00:53:11.340 over and say, this is our fate. Now we may say, I think I'm inclined to believe that this is going

00:53:15.800 to be what happens. But if it happens, it's not because God just destined it in the stars. And

00:53:22.040 we never had we never had the option otherwise no it's because because we rolled over because of

00:53:27.680 our wickedness because of our abdication of response christian responsibility we we we set

00:53:33.800 our own fate god did it sovereignly but through the agency of the church and its failure and um

00:53:39.540 you know what i mean and so i i just want to absolutely you know say you know that point and

00:53:43.680 say that like it doesn't have to be our fate and um and if we did repent god is god is faithful

00:53:49.120 and merciful. And I, and I believe like Hezekiah, that's my prayer, right? So I do love America and

00:53:54.880 I do want it to continue. And the reason I want it to continue, I didn't feel this way five years

00:53:59.720 ago, but something happened the last five years. I had three little girls and, and, and so, so I'm

00:54:05.500 thinking, you know, everything God does is for our eternal good. But man, if I have any say in the

00:54:10.440 matter, I'd like for my girls, not, not to have to go through a civil war and not to have, you know,

00:54:14.820 not to have sons of their own that die, you know, and, and be exiles, you know,

00:54:19.020 and have to flee to, to with Elon Musk to Mars or whatever,

00:54:22.460 to set up the new Christian colony or what, you know, like I,

00:54:25.280 I'd love for that not to be the case. 0.96

00:54:27.440 I know it'll be good if that's what God decides, but, but, you know,

00:54:30.560 I want to fight. And so I feel like Hezekiah, like just praying, um,

00:54:34.720 and, and, and then crying out as a prophet, as a preacher to the nation,

00:54:37.920 because I know God doesn't, God is not going to bless.

00:54:41.140 We can't ask for his blessing and for his mercy without repentance.

00:54:45.320 And if we repent, we're going to have to say his name.

00:54:47.540 So I want to, in my prophetic role as a pastor and as a Christian,

00:54:51.240 cry out and say, repent and call upon the name of Jesus 0.91

00:54:54.160 and turn from your wickedness.

00:54:55.480 And then as a priest, as an intercessor, I want to cry out to Jesus and say,

00:54:59.400 would you give us 15 more years?

00:55:02.140 You know, and what do you guys think about that?

00:55:04.220 If you find 10 people. 0.84

00:55:05.020 Well, I mean, if Nineveh can repent, then we can repent. 0.93

00:55:12.440 And I agree with exactly what you said.

00:55:16.080 This is where God has placed us, and we are called upon to love our neighbors.

00:55:21.940 And our neighbors are these people, this nation.

00:55:24.480 We love them.

00:55:25.720 And no man had greater love than he laid his life down for his friend.

00:55:30.960 So this is our assignment.

00:55:32.440 We're called to love this nation, telling them the truth of the gospel, calling them to repentance, and amen.

00:55:40.140 Amen.

00:55:41.060 So that, among a whole other host of things, but that, I would say, is not the distinction, 0.76

00:55:45.960 but that's one of the distinctions between us and AOC, is that Christians, if America falls,

00:55:52.860 Christians' response will be that we'll weep, like that we love our neighbors.

00:55:56.980 And then it said, we're not rejoicing with the ashes and burn it all down.

00:56:03.040 We're saying, let God be true and every man a liar and let his will be done.

00:56:07.060 But we won't weep.

00:56:07.640 And we trust in his wisdom.

00:56:09.180 But we won't weep like those who have no hope.

00:56:12.000 That's right.

00:56:12.800 That's right.

00:56:13.440 Amen.

00:56:13.780 We will weep.

00:56:14.560 I mean, there's a book of lamentations that's all about weeping over Jerusalem fallen. 0.66

00:56:20.240 And every Jerusalem fallen, I would say, is the application. 0.99

00:56:24.680 Amen. 0.99

00:56:24.900 And I do agree with what you said, that America, I think, is the high water mark to this point.

00:56:31.100 But no eye has seen, ear has heard the glorious things that God has prepared for us.

00:56:36.400 I mean, I just don't think this is anything yet.

00:56:38.520 You haven't seen nothing yet.

00:56:40.260 And God may be pleased to give America repentance to give us another 250 years.

00:56:44.900 God be pleased to give us that repentance and that glory.

00:56:48.660 And if not, bring it down so that you can bring up the next one.

00:56:53.320 And by the way, we do a whole show here for the very purpose,

00:56:56.580 hoping that that sparks some sort of repentance in our brothers.

00:56:59.520 That flag underneath that cross is our hope.

00:57:02.180 It's because that's our hope.

00:57:04.280 Amen.

00:57:04.960 Amen.

00:57:05.460 Well, guys, thanks so much for coming on the show.

00:57:07.960 Chalk Knox, I'm going to do something dangerous.

00:57:09.800 I'm going to give you the last word.

00:57:11.480 You got one minute to try to convince me to baptize my three little girls.

00:57:16.240 Oh, bro.

00:57:17.100 One minute?

00:57:18.320 You can do it, man.

00:57:19.000 Yeah, one minute.

00:57:19.640 Just play your little video.

00:57:21.320 get your little presbyterian chuckle yeah play your little outro you guys laugh at the baptist

00:57:27.480 quick quick pitch why you should baptize your kids because when they were born i get it they

00:57:38.340 had your last name when they were born they were made americans when your kids were born they were

00:57:41.820 born they were born weapons and they were born in the direction of their father to serve the god of

00:57:47.160 their fathers. And so your kids are not, I always say this, if a Muslim came in the house saying, 0.95

00:57:53.080 hey, kill all the Christians in here, they wouldn't leave your kids. 1.00

00:57:56.300 Oops. Amen. I can affirm all that as a Reformed Baptist. And we'll have to talk about how and why 1.00

00:58:03.340 and why we disagree another time. All right, guys, thank you so much for coming on the show.

00:58:08.940 God bless you. God bless your ministry. And I encourage all of our listeners, if you get an

00:58:12.360 opportunity, check out CrossPolitik. If you're wanting to keep up with the headlines, they hit

00:58:16.700 current events all the time, and they hit it all through a Christian worldview. And there's a lot

00:58:21.060 of guys who do that through a Christian worldview, but they actually do that through a Christian

00:58:25.220 worldview with courage. So, all right. Thanks, guys. God bless you. Thank you, Joel. Bye, brother.

00:58:29.440 Thank you.

00:58:31.140 As a special thank you for your gift of any amount, we'll be happy to send you a free digital book

00:58:35.800 from our store. To access this offer, visit rightresponseministries.com slash offer. We

00:58:42.240 highly recommend pastor joel's book am i truly saved if you or someone you know has wrestled

00:58:47.220 with doubts about the love of god this would be a great resource as a reminder to get this offer

00:58:52.580 go to right response ministries.com slash offer and thank you for your generous support

The NXR Podcast - December 08, 2021

THEOLOGY APPLIED - Biblical Theonomy & Predictions For America’s Future

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