The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - Calling Out False Teachers By Name

00:00:00.540 Applying God's Word to every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied.

00:00:10.620 All right, welcome to another episode of Theology Applied. I'm Pastor Joel Webin with Right Response Ministries.

00:00:16.420 Today I'm honored to have as a special guest, Justin Peters with Justin Peters Ministries.

00:00:21.840 He's been a blessing to me over the last couple of years.

00:00:24.460 He wrote an endorsement for the first book that I wrote, a book on the assurance of salvation.

00:00:30.000 and we had the pleasure of getting together and having lunch when I was still living in San Diego

00:00:34.440 with one of our friends, Michael Curello. And so he's just been a blessing to me. I had conversations

00:00:39.680 from time to time over the years and just his insight and his courage to be able to be a

00:00:45.700 discernment minister, protecting the flock of God from ravaged wolves that would seek to devour

00:00:51.820 the people of God if they could. And so I'm grateful for him. And without further ado,

00:00:57.520 Let's go ahead and get started.

00:00:59.360 Justin, could you tell us about yourself, your ministry, and what you got going on?

00:01:03.640 Sure, Joel.

00:01:04.580 Well, first, it's a pleasure to be with you.

00:01:06.600 It's good to see you again, and I appreciate your kind words of encouragement.

00:01:11.120 And I praise the Lord for the work that you're doing and the ministry that he has entrusted to you.

00:01:16.420 So, yes, my name is Justin Peters.

00:01:19.140 I have a ministry that is very uncreatively entitled Justin Peters Ministries.

00:01:24.940 And I'm an evangelist.

00:01:26.880 I travel and preach and teach. And that for which I am most well known is dealing with false

00:01:35.280 teachers. I have a seminar entitled Clouds Without Water. And Clouds Without Water is a reference in

00:01:41.300 the book of Jude, verse 12. Jude refers to false teachers in a number of different ways, one of

00:01:46.520 which is Clouds Without Water. So that's the genesis there of the title. And it deals specifically

00:01:54.060 with the Word of Faith movement, the health and wealth, name it and claim it, gospel, prosperity

00:01:59.400 gospel, the doctrine that says it's always God's will for a Christian to be wealthy, always God's

00:02:04.120 will for a Christian to be physically healed. It's led by people such as Benny Hinn, Kenneth

00:02:10.140 Copeland, Creflo Dollar, Joel Osteen, Joyce Meyer, some of those folks. And so that has taken me all

00:02:19.160 around the world across the United States and around the world preaching and teaching uh but

00:02:24.640 it's not my only interest I mean that's kind of what people tend to think of when they think of

00:02:28.800 me but I I have other interests as well my first commitment is to exposition expository preaching

00:02:35.280 and uh so I do I do quite a bit of that as well but uh the clouds without water is what I'm most

00:02:43.060 known for great great that's uh that's how i i first kind of uh found you and became interested

00:02:49.860 in your work and and uh i yeah i just appreciate your courage and preaching the truth so uh second

00:02:55.840 thing that i wanted to get to that uh people tend to struggle with is just the idea of calling out

00:03:01.260 false teachers by name so the title of this episode for uh lack of creativity as you said earlier is

00:03:07.440 calling out false teachers by name and uh i think people understand most people in the church today

00:03:12.740 They understand that there are, you know, false teachers and false teachings.

00:03:17.620 But I think what I've encountered in my pastoral ministry as I've done some of this and following in your footsteps and calling out false teachers by name is I hear a lot of Christians say, you know, well, why don't you just address false teaching without addressing the false teachers?

00:03:33.940 or i've even had other people you know who would be maybe even extra sensitive and so they would

00:03:39.580 say well don't even address false teaching um just just teach true teaching and if you just

00:03:46.020 focus on the truth then you know like you don't need to to talk about everything that's wrong

00:03:50.640 you know you don't need to always be criticizing they kind of have that mentality where they think

00:03:55.660 you're being critical you have a critical spirit by always calling something out so it's so there's

00:04:01.840 already enough people who rub the wrong way when you call something out there's certainly people

00:04:06.220 rub the wrong way when you call someone out and so the title of the you know this episode is you

00:04:11.220 know calling out false teachers by name and so should false teachers be called out by name um

00:04:16.680 but further than that because i know your answer most of our listeners do too um why so kind of

00:04:23.220 three parts why should they be called out by name how is that good how is that beneficial why is that

00:04:27.640 necessary. Who should do this? Should Christians be doing this? Should Joe Blow Christian be doing

00:04:32.980 this? Or is it reserved for pastors or evangelists? So who should do it? Why should it be done? And

00:04:38.220 then lastly, what's the proper context? Or you could say where. So why and who and where? Is it

00:04:44.360 reserved for a conference about false teachers? Is it reserved for a podcast, you know, or show

00:04:51.120 setting like what we're doing now? Or what about Sunday morning, the Lord's Day in the pulpit? What

00:04:55.580 about on social media, those kinds of things. So should false teachers be called out by name?

00:05:01.180 And then why? Who should do it? And where? What's the proper context?

00:05:06.660 Okay. All right. So in short, yes, we should call out false teachers publicly by name.

00:05:16.380 Let's lay a little groundwork here. You mentioned those who would say, oh, well,

00:05:21.200 we should just teach the truth. You don't have to worry about error. Teach the truth. You know,

00:05:25.000 just be positive. You don't have to worry about the error. Well, for one thing, pointing out error

00:05:30.900 is in and of itself positive, but Scripture actually commands us to do both, to teach the

00:05:38.360 truth of Scripture as well as warn people about false doctrine. In fact, Titus chapter 1 verse 9

00:05:46.260 says, teach sound doctrine and refute those who contradict. So it's not an either or, it's a both

00:05:55.700 and. We're to do both of these things. In fact, this would probably surprise a lot of folks.

00:06:03.020 26 of the 27 books in the New Testament directly warn about false teachers and or false teaching.

00:06:11.120 only the book of philemon the short little book of philemon doesn't say anything about it one way

00:06:16.820 or the other so 26 of the 27 books in the new testament do so warning about false doctrine

00:06:23.880 false teaching and false teachers is a very prominent theme in the new testament and so you

00:06:30.500 you really have to do uh you you you would have to be you would have to get to the point of being

00:06:36.900 intentionally dishonest with the text of Scripture to say that we shouldn't be doing this because it

00:06:42.540 is just all throughout the New Testament. You really cannot miss it unless you're just trying

00:06:49.820 to. So yes, it's not either or, it's both and. So first question is, why should we be doing it,

00:06:59.160 correct we will a we must do it because we have a command from scripture to do it 16 17 paul says

00:07:07.460 mark those who cause divisions and hindrances contrary to the doctrine which you learned and

00:07:13.560 stay away from them uh as just one example so we're commanded from scripture to mark those

00:07:19.880 who teach contrary doctrine to the gospel.

00:07:24.460 And also, false doctrine, false teaching,

00:07:28.720 and those two terms are synonymous, by the way, doctrine and teaching,

00:07:31.860 but they pose a real threat to people, both to unbelievers and to believers.

00:07:41.700 Paul says that, he writes to Timothy and says that false teaching, idle chatter,

00:07:47.360 it spreads like gangrene error is error always begets more error okay error is never isolated

00:07:57.020 it left unchecked error spreads like gangrene it always begets more error and so unless you

00:08:04.240 if you don't engage it and i guess to quote barney fife if you don't nip it in the bud i might be

00:08:11.560 taking myself there but if you don't nip in the bud it's going to spread it's uh look at the

00:08:16.360 United Methodist Church as an example. Back, so gosh, 70, 80 years ago now, they began to ordain

00:08:25.080 women into the ministry, but they were still on other issues, you know, pretty conservative

00:08:32.620 theologically. And now the United Methodist Church is ordaining homosexuals, and I mean,

00:08:37.380 they're hopelessly liberal. So error always begets more error. It never just stays isolated.

00:08:43.440 so um so that's the why because it does pose a danger and now granted it doesn't pose any

00:08:52.400 eternal danger as in a crit to a christian a genuine christian can never lose his or her

00:08:59.900 salvation so it's not like it's going to lead them uh to losing a salvation but it can divert

00:09:05.320 them it can stunt their sanctification it can stunt their price uh it can confuse them it can

00:09:11.960 be um uh very uh what's the word i'm looking for very uh uh it can be devastating to them at least

00:09:20.520 in a in a temporary sense i mean eventually a genuine believer will kind of get back on the

00:09:26.720 right track but it can absolutely stunt their their growth and cause a lot of confusion unnecessarily

00:09:32.280 so uh so so that's the why uh and uh and the and the what is that correct what's the next question

00:09:40.400 Yeah, who and where? What's the proper context, a.k.a. where, but then also who? Who should do it?

00:09:46.600 Okay, so who should do it? All of us should do it. This is not just something for the preachers or the, you know, the elders or the conference speakers.

00:09:58.480 No, this is something that we should all be doing. Each and every one of us is as believers. We are indwelt by the same Holy Spirit.

00:10:06.900 anybody watching us right now maybe you're not in ministry but you're a genuine christian born

00:10:13.500 again by the holy spirit of god guess what you have the same holy spirit that i do and joel does

00:10:18.920 so this is incumbent upon all of us to do uh so it's not just for the preachers um and and and

00:10:26.620 where um well as i just said it not just at conferences not just in church uh we are to

00:10:35.080 always be ready, as the Apostle Peter says, always be ready to give an answer for the hope that is

00:10:40.920 within us. We're to preach the word in season and out of season. That means always be ready

00:10:46.960 to preach God's word, always be ready to give an answer for the hope that is within us. So it's

00:10:51.800 not just something to think about and talk about at a conference, an apologetics conference, or

00:10:57.220 church on Sunday mornings. We always need to be ready to do this because all of us, I would dare

00:11:06.020 say each and every person watching us right now knows someone who to one degree or another has

00:11:13.520 been led astray by false teachers. They are so prominent and they dominate the airwaves. They

00:11:22.600 dominate christian television they uh they get the most youtube views and clicks and they

00:11:30.360 in fact sid roth who was one of the looniest of the loony i mean honestly i couldn't even

00:11:39.060 i couldn't make up something crazier than the previous guest on sid roth's program i mean it

00:11:47.140 just looney tunes like it would make scientology look like a documentary kind of crazy

00:11:51.760 his channel his uh youtube channel has 1.26 million subscribers and uh for comparison

00:12:04.660 grace to use youtube channel has about 400 000 or something so he literally has i mean this guy who

00:12:11.480 is absolutely loony has triple the amount of subscribers that grace to you has so right it's

00:12:19.640 very prominent that very very prominent false teachers are everywhere yep i like what you said

00:12:26.800 in terms of the the who um that it's it's a ministry for all believers it's a ministry for

00:12:32.440 all the saints and it just got me thinking about first john it got me thinking about um

00:12:36.260 where where the apostle he writes to you know to his his readers and he says um i'm not writing to

00:12:43.320 you because you don't have knowledge i'm not writing to you because you've been left out in

00:12:47.000 the dark there's these false teachers that were kind of giving this impression you know um trying

00:12:53.260 to lead them astray that that you know that there was this higher echelon of spiritual knowledge

00:12:57.400 this you know gnosticism this you know you know special enlightenment and they were they were

00:13:02.580 hijacking the the biblical old testament word anointing and using it for their their you know

00:13:07.560 their their perverse purposes and saying we're the anointed ones and if you listen to us

00:13:12.180 you know and you come and join our our secret club you can be anointed too and come into this

00:13:17.940 this higher gnosis this you know elite knowledge and john says i do not write to you because

00:13:24.080 because you're missing something i don't write to you because there's something that you don't know

00:13:28.280 and i'm here to fill in the blanks i write to you because you do know because you do have knowledge

00:13:34.600 and that because you have been past tense every single one of you if you're in christ you have

00:13:39.640 been anointed by the holy one and and this is the same letter where john also says greater is he who

00:13:45.800 is in you than he who is in the world you know and we take that out of context a lot of times

00:13:51.100 the evangelical church and you you know you you see that right alongside you know philippians i

00:13:55.900 can do all things through christ who strengthens me at a football game you know it's greater is he

00:13:59.940 who is in us and we could beat that football team and say well now it's a little deeper than that

00:14:04.040 but uh greater is he who is in you it's speaking of the holy spirit that you've been anointed by

00:14:08.700 And his confirming and resonating ministry with the truth, because the Holy Spirit, Jesus said, he convicts us of sin and he will guide us and remind us of all that Christ has taught us.

00:14:23.140 So the Holy Spirit dwelling within us, resonating with the truth, is a more powerful ministry led by a more powerful person, namely the third member of the Trinity, than the devil, and particularly what's in view with he who is in the world, referencing Satan, is his deceptive false teachings.

00:14:41.740 And so even that idea of greater is he who is in you than he who is in the world is speaking to the very topic that we're addressing right now.

00:14:50.140 The topic of what that means is not that just you can beat the other football team.

00:14:54.000 What it actually means is that if you're a genuine born-again Christian, you cannot ultimately be deceived in an ultimate sense by false teaching because the Holy Spirit won't let it happen.

00:15:05.280 And because you do have knowledge.

00:15:07.000 And again, John, he's not just writing to a team of elders.

00:15:09.860 um he's he's when he says you do have knowledge you have been anointed you have the holy spirit

00:15:15.680 and he's strong enough within you to to preserve you from deception and false teaching he's he's

00:15:22.660 addressing all the saints he's addressing all the people of god and so yeah that's i i appreciate

00:15:29.080 you saying that it's a ministry for everyone now i gotta be honest as a pastor there have been times

00:15:33.600 where where i i see you know some people maybe a little overzealous fulfilling that ministry you

00:15:39.360 know in the chat section on on facebook you know and and getting in arguments you know that sometimes

00:15:44.860 i'm like man i i don't know if you went too far even if you didn't go too far i feel like you

00:15:49.760 might just be wasting your time you know there's like 174 comments between two people everybody

00:15:54.800 else has already checked out like at comment 47 and you know it just keeps going it's like all

00:15:59.120 right you know what you know what sweetheart you know why don't you just give it a rest and uh

00:16:03.380 we'll just we'll just leave that in the hands of god but but you see that sometimes you know

00:16:08.800 christians it is their ministry and sometimes um sometimes they take that ministry uh maybe

00:16:13.920 maybe too far but but all right well let me let me get to another question uh what's what's the

00:16:20.180 biblical support you've already given us titus right so that you know you're teaching what's

00:16:25.560 true you're refuting what's false what's some other could you maybe not biblical support just

00:16:31.080 in principle but could you give us a couple biblical examples where one of the apostolic

00:16:35.580 writers called out some guys by name? Yeah, absolutely. And that's a great question,

00:16:42.940 and I'm happy to answer that. It happens on a number of occasions, actually. And it goes beyond

00:16:49.680 just warning about false teaching in a general sense. The apostolic writers, the writers of

00:16:56.620 Scripture called out false teachers by name publicly on a number of occasions.

00:17:04.420 Just a few of these, 2 Timothy chapter 4, verse 10, Paul writes,

00:17:08.920 For Demas, having loved this present world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica, or Thessaloniki in the Greek.

00:17:16.040 Christians has gone to Galatia, Titus to Dalmatia.

00:17:19.460 So Paul there, 2 Timothy 4.10, names Demas.

00:17:23.260 2 Timothy chapter 1 verse 15 Paul says you are aware of the fact that all who are in Asia turned

00:17:29.440 away from me among whom are fight jealous and hermogenes so he names two of them right there

00:17:36.080 2 Timothy 2 excuse me 2 Timothy 1 verse 15 another one 1 Timothy chapter 1 19 through 20

00:17:46.120 Paul says keeping faith in a good conscience which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck

00:17:51.540 in regard to their faith.

00:17:52.760 Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander,

00:17:55.720 whom I have handed over to Satan.

00:17:59.260 2 Timothy 2, 17,

00:18:00.960 this is actually a verse I alluded to a minute ago.

00:18:03.040 Paul says their talk will spread like gangrene.

00:18:05.640 Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus.

00:18:11.140 Peter, 2 Peter 2, verse 15.

00:18:15.460 Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray,

00:18:17.280 having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor,

00:18:19.520 who love the wages of unrighteousness uh and then third john nine john the apostle writes i wrote

00:18:26.460 something to the church but diatrophies who love to be first among them does not accept what we say

00:18:31.300 so uh there are several right there was that one two three four five six that was a lot that was

00:18:37.540 great yeah there's a there's a couple there's a couple in the bible um no that was really great

00:18:43.060 and i love i love um first timothy one i i preached through first timothy about a year ago

00:18:47.660 and uh first timothy is a great book of the bible for a church shrinking strategy if you're a pastor

00:18:52.480 and you want to feel like you just have too many congregants and you want you want to narrow them

00:18:56.300 down kind of like a like a john john uh chapter what is it chapter six right where jesus they

00:19:01.960 all leave except the disciples is that right um but i i yeah we lost a few people but um

00:19:07.940 but i i like first timothy one so he calls him out by name at the end like you said hymenes and

00:19:13.020 alexander um but so that's that would be like the case study and then and then the principle he gives

00:19:18.040 it to timothy right out the bat i mean it's the very beginning of the letter timothy as far as we

00:19:22.060 can tell young man a young pastor um probably a bit intimidated uh left in ephesus um to you know

00:19:29.320 and he's got a he's got to deal with men who are probably in some cases twice his elder you know

00:19:35.000 twice his age and uh he says i as i urge verse three chapter one verse three as i urge you

00:19:40.660 when i went to macedonia remain in ephesus so that you may instruct certain people not to teach

00:19:46.220 false doctrine or pay attention to myths and endless genealogies they promote empty speculation

00:19:52.140 rather than god's plan which operates by faith i don't know why i'm using i don't like this

00:19:56.780 translation but better translation to charge certain persons to charge certain persons and

00:20:01.960 i remember when i was preaching that you know i i was trying to encourage my congregation that

00:20:08.940 that the ministry that the apostle assigned to timid so it's not just an apostolic ministry

00:20:12.420 it's not just paul's ministry he's assigning this ministry to timothy um a young pastor and

00:20:17.640 the ministry he assigns him is not just um it's not just to teach what's true and it's not just

00:20:22.960 to charge certain ideas right so it's and that's what we would like to say so that word charge

00:20:29.100 it's a charged word charge it's it's you know it's a it's it's um to to rebuke to confront

00:20:34.640 to challenge. And so Timothy, as a young man, is supposed to not let anyone despise him because of

00:20:40.920 his youth. He's called to go in there with Christian confidence, no confidence in the flesh,

00:20:45.020 but confidence in Christ and the Holy One who's anointed him and dwells within him,

00:20:48.960 resonating with the truth. And he's called to go in there and sharply rebuke. That's the word

00:20:53.820 charge. That's what sharply rebuke, not just certain ideas, not just sharply rebuke the

00:20:59.860 prosperity gospel, but sharply charge certain persons, prosperity preachers. And I remember

00:21:08.520 just seeing some of the looks on the faces of my congregants and like, really? But it was so plain

00:21:14.140 in the text, there wasn't a lot of pushback. And so I think that that's something that people

00:21:19.160 struggle with, charging certain persons. And I think, well, I'll just throw it to you as a

00:21:24.740 question why why do you think because you've already addressed this you know the why why do

00:21:29.760 we need to call out false teachers by name but why getting more specific why is it distinctly

00:21:36.520 beneficial for the sheep to to not merely call out a false teaching a false ideology or idea

00:21:44.800 but also to call out a false teacher because it to play the devil's advocate for a moment what if

00:21:50.380 somebody was just sitting here with me and you and they push back and they say why don't you just

00:21:53.660 do a seminar, Justin, and just give them all, you know, 10 characteristics of the prosperity

00:21:58.900 gospel, which I'm sure you've done, you know, something like that probably a hundred times,

00:22:02.340 you know, and like what, you know, give, give us a 10 telltale signs of the prosperity gospel

00:22:07.760 and make it plain as day, teach a seminar, give hours of information. Here's the prosperity

00:22:13.140 gospel. Here's the gospel of Jesus Christ. Here's a prospect and line them up, compare and contrast,

00:22:17.720 make it real plain and just equip them with those tools and send them home. Why, why do you have to

00:22:22.580 name a prosperity preacher? What would you say, Justin?

00:22:26.380 Yeah, well, a couple of things. The first one I would say, kind of what we've already talked

00:22:30.940 about, is that there is a biblical precedent for calling out false teachers by name. So

00:22:35.780 that's letter A. That's exhibit one.

00:22:39.680 Yeah, that's good. And it's sufficient. That's enough.

00:22:43.280 Yeah, that's sufficient in and of itself. That's sufficient. That's enough reason.

00:22:46.560 But to add to that, I have talked to many people over the years, Joel, who just in general conversation, they would say, oh, yeah, you know, the prosperity gospel, the belief that God wants us all to be wealthy and never be sick, you know, that's just not biblical.

00:23:08.440 But then you ask them, well, who are some of your favorite preachers?

00:23:10.700 Oh, I love Joel Oste.

00:23:12.520 That's it, Justin.

00:23:13.480 See, that's what I wanted you to say, because I know I've had that same experience. I can only imagine you've had it 10 times as often as I have. But that same experience where it's like, I'm like, what? Where I'm talking to someone and I'm describing the prosperity gospel, the doctrine, without the person. I'm charging a certain idea, but not charging a certain person.

00:23:34.000 And the person I'm talking to is just nodding their head right there with you, brother. Oh, my, I can't stand that health and wealth. And then and then I see on their Facebook feed, like all sharing all this stuff by Kenneth Copeland. I'm like, how? And they're like, oh, no, he's not a prosperity preacher. And so I think there's just this disconnect. Why do you think that is? Why do you think? How do people miss that?

00:23:53.940 I, you know, it, I don't know, Joel, but I've seen it so much. People do miss it. They just,

00:24:02.000 they, they don't connect the dots. I would have to say they're either,

00:24:07.840 they're really ignorant of scripture or ignorant of, of what they're the teacher,

00:24:14.940 the preacher that they're their favorite one that they've been listening to. It's for some

00:24:18.860 reason, they just don't connect the dots. I literally, one time, this is not an ounce of

00:24:25.360 hyperbole. A number of years ago, I was in a Lifeway Christian bookstore. And there was a

00:24:31.120 lady who was looking at a copy of The Message by Eugene Peterson, which we could do a whole

00:24:36.200 program on that. That's garbage. But anyway, and I just couldn't help myself. And so I was on my

00:24:42.000 little scooter and I went up to her and I said, ma'am, I said, I know you're not asking my opinion,

00:24:46.420 but I do know a little bit about this. And I said, if you're looking for a Bible, this is not

00:24:51.120 the one you want. And so she was very nice. She said, Oh, really? And so I started, we started

00:24:56.200 talking about that and, and, uh, listen to me, you know, so it, it kind of led into another

00:25:01.180 conversation in the midst of the conversation. We got to talking about various preachers.

00:25:04.540 And she said, I kid you not. She said, my two favorite preachers are Joel Osteen and John

00:25:10.920 mccarthur uh two peas in the pod huh i'm sure i'm sure john mccarthur was flattered if you ever

00:25:21.720 heard that right it's just uh really no it happens it makes me think i know there's got to be an

00:25:29.460 illustration for this that i just i can't i can't think of off the top of my head but it's it's

00:25:34.840 almost like um i've you know there's there's some old parable and i just can't think of it but

00:25:39.640 not not a parable from the bible but uh but just the idea of you know describing you know how you

00:25:44.420 describe something to a blind man you know and it's uh you know and you know it feels like this

00:25:50.980 and it looks like that and it's it's this size and you know all these kind of things and then

00:25:55.220 like if he could see right you could describe an elephant for instance and just and just exact

00:26:01.420 detail to a blind man and then let's let's say all of a sudden he you know his sight was restored

00:26:06.140 and he sees an elephant for the first time, he still may not necessarily connect the dots.

00:26:11.120 There's just something about when it comes to, well, just, I think just the act of teaching,

00:26:16.620 when it comes to the art of teaching, there's a reason why Jesus gives examples.

00:26:22.620 You know, there's a reason why the apostles give.

00:26:24.960 I think there's just something about examples.

00:26:27.080 I think when someone's teaching me, when I'm trying to learn something,

00:26:30.900 and they just give me the general principle, I'll get a lot out of that.

00:26:36.140 Um, but, but it's not until they say, and here's the general principle, this tenant, this tenant, this tenant, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. You got it. And it's like, okay, I got it. And they're like, and here's what it looks like. You know what I mean? Some people are just visual learners. They just need that. And so I think that's part of it. And I think also part of it, uh, I think I keep thinking about first Timothy five, when, when Paul's writing to Timothy in regards to, uh, disciplining an elder, you know, and, and those who persist in sin, rebuke them before them all.

00:27:03.900 So they, you know, the rest might stand in fear. And, and then he goes immediately on to say, do nothing from favoritism. And it's not, it's, you know, it's not random. He's not, he's not, you know, changing gears. It's, he's saying, I think, I think what he's saying is, because I believe, and I know you do too, and ministering with a plurality of elders in a local church. And so he's assuming there's a plurality of elders.

00:27:26.500 And I think when you're ministering shoulder to shoulder with brothers in Christ in that kind of capacity, especially in the same local church, it assumes, I think it assumes friendship and a good Christian brotherly love and tender heartedness toward one another.

00:27:43.580 Meaning that I think the implication that Paul is saying is if you've got to discipline a fellow elder, you're going to be tempted not to because you like him.

00:27:52.820 You like him.

00:27:53.880 He's your friend.

00:27:54.600 you know and so i think in the same kind of thing like with that woman you know like that you're

00:27:58.980 describing or the person's like oh i hate that health and wealth and uh really like cope you

00:28:03.060 know kenneth copeland um i think that person i think part of is that they they sometimes they

00:28:08.080 come into these convictions later on from a ministry you know or or the you know a local

00:28:14.980 church setting or they read a book by macarthur or something like that and they and they come to

00:28:18.620 see the faultiness um the falsehoods with the prosperity gospel or some other heresy um but

00:28:25.720 but they already have this i think it's personal i think it's relational they already have like

00:28:30.260 this relational connection even though they've never met the person um in in actual life just

00:28:35.700 they've been listening to so and so for so long and read so many of their books that even though

00:28:40.740 they now believe that health and wealth preaching is wrong they just they can't come to terms with

00:28:46.940 saying, and that's Joel Osteen. Like, no, that's not Joel Osteen, because there's this affection,

00:28:53.520 that there's this personal relational bond. It's favoritism. I think there's, it's favoritism. And

00:28:59.420 I think that's why, because as human beings, we're just, we're easily, we can easily deceive

00:29:05.520 ourselves and be blinded, but we can be biased. We are prone to showing favoritism. James talks

00:29:11.640 about don't treat poor people this way and rich people that way. And Jesus said the same thing.

00:29:15.780 that's just the way we operate in our sinfulness. We are prone towards showing favoritism. There

00:29:21.920 was no favoritism with God, and we're not like him in that capacity. And because of our fallen

00:29:26.700 nature and maybe something to our finitude, there's this propensity towards favoritism.

00:29:31.180 And I think that plays into false teachers. And so anybody who's already developed an affinity

00:29:36.360 with a false teacher, even if they come out of the false teaching, they might still not,

00:29:43.340 they're just not it's not even that they can't do it they just won't do it they will not connect

00:29:49.560 the dots to to that person it's the same kind of thing where you know people they they come into

00:29:54.040 reform theology and uh one of the hardest parts that i've noticed for people coming to reform

00:29:59.060 theology is uh usually it's it's it's their high school mentor it's their parents it's people in

00:30:05.940 their church back home that's that's not reformed and and one of the hardest things for them is um

00:30:12.380 to accept these things as true but then logically make the progression if this then that and be able

00:30:20.080 to say and these people over here doesn't mean that they're not christians necessarily doesn't

00:30:24.240 mean that they're not good people in in that relative sense but but they're wrong and you

00:30:29.740 know my high school mentor taught me wrong and my parents are wrong like it's like a kid when

00:30:36.420 when he reaches 14 15 and he beats his dad in basketball for the first time and it's like he's

00:30:41.440 so excited out of his mind excitement and then later on that night he feels a little sad because

00:30:47.120 he because there's something in you that like you never really want to beat the old man you did but

00:30:52.100 you didn't really you always want him to be beyond you you know and and so i think there's just like

00:30:57.180 this you know that you know what i mean it's like oh not not not joel osteen you know like i i read

00:31:03.920 him growing up as a kid you know what i mean i think there's that relational component that

00:31:08.280 people are just, it's hard to let go of. Would you agree with that? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I would. And

00:31:16.180 a lot of it's a lot of people have to do a lot of deep programming. And I can't tell you how many

00:31:21.760 emails I've received over the years. People who they feel like they have been lied to their whole

00:31:28.920 life. And above that, they grieve over how many years they spent in false doctrine. And now they

00:31:41.220 see the truth and they're embracing the truth warmly and eagerly. But they grieve, I've spent

00:31:47.720 my whole life in this stuff. And it's, you know, some people come out of it more quickly, more

00:31:54.880 easily than others um some folks saying progress in their sanctification more quickly than others

00:32:00.820 but but for a lot of people it's hard it's it's a hard thing for it to sink into them

00:32:05.720 i've had this wrong for decades maybe you know years i've had this wrong so it's it's a hard

00:32:14.020 it's kind of a hard pill to swallow for a lot of people it is yeah to abandon yeah because you just

00:32:19.760 i mean to to walk away from something that you've been building and developing and investing

00:32:24.660 in for such a long time and to count it all as loss as dung that's a that's hard um yeah and i

00:32:32.200 think to you know to walk away from it and in a sense to walk away from them i think that that's

00:32:39.060 that makes it really hard to to realize i've been wasting my time with this teaching and

00:32:45.800 it's not just that this teaching is wrong but it's this person right because it's it's not just i've

00:32:51.740 been in this uh teaching or this doctrine no like that it's always they come together the doctrine

00:32:58.660 and the community of people right so i if i've been steeped in the prosperity gospel you've

00:33:03.920 probably been steeped in a prosperity gospel community you know i mean in a church like that

00:33:08.920 in a family like that friends like that and so you're not just walking away from an idea that i

00:33:15.220 think that's what makes it so hard you're not just walking away from an idea you're walking away from

00:33:19.040 what felt like a family you know and and yeah that's hard and i know you and i both have some

00:33:25.340 guys that we have personal relationships with with you know they didn't decide their last name

00:33:29.700 you know but they they you know god god you know in his sovereignty opened their eyes and they

00:33:34.220 it wasn't the hardest the hardest part for those guys was was not just walking away from the

00:33:38.780 teaching but it was it was losing relationships yep you know really really very costly yep

00:33:45.020 yeah all right let me ask you this real quick and then we'll go ahead and uh close out our episode

00:33:50.840 um but what what about i believe it's first corinthians chapter three i don't even i don't

00:33:55.920 want to i got my bible here okay i'll do i can't let me see this is the csb i'm not a huge fan i

00:34:03.740 don't think it's the worst translation but the christian standard bible have you heard of that

00:34:07.160 translation i've heard of it but i've not really read it any so i'm not familiar with i prefer nasb

00:34:13.140 your esv but this is what i got on my desk right now i'm not going to get up so not that that

00:34:19.060 devoted um first corinthians i believe it's chapter three you'll know uh but it's where you

00:34:24.180 know paul is writing he's saying um he's talking about the person who builds with wood hay and

00:34:28.880 stubble versus the person who builds with precious jewels and the person who builds with the wood hay

00:34:33.400 and stubble he says he himself will be saved but as one escaping flames barely by the skin of his

00:34:38.960 teeth um now that can't be a false teacher can it i have my thoughts on it but i'd love to hear

00:34:45.860 what would you say to the person who's asking well justin what about this right here that

00:34:49.720 you know it seems like some people in their ministry are are ministering wrong incorrectly

00:34:56.540 you know something that's ultimately going to be burned up it's not going to you know god will

00:35:01.520 test it with fire on the last day and all their work was in vain it was not eternal it was not

00:35:07.780 correct it was false it was wrong but they themselves were saved how can somebody how

00:35:13.940 can their work be false but them be true do you know what i'm talking about is it first corinthians

00:35:19.060 three is that right yeah i don't i don't my uh i've got my phone turned off i kept i don't enough

00:35:25.860 we just came back i think i found it actually in my uh in my bag so i don't i think it's first

00:35:31.620 first corinthians 3 8 8 through yeah 8 or um 10 verse 10 it says according to the god's grace

00:35:41.500 that was given to me i laid a foundation as an expert builder another one builds upon it but

00:35:47.500 each one should be careful how he builds for no one can lay another foundation right that's like

00:35:54.480 ephesians 220 that the foundation is apostles and the prophets we don't have any more of them

00:35:58.880 christ is the cornerstone we've got evangelists and pastors and we're we're framers we're building

00:36:03.640 on that foundation and so another is building on it but they should be careful how they build no

00:36:08.000 one can lay another foundation that's already done it's already been laid the foundation is

00:36:12.160 jesus christ if anyone builds on the foundation with gold silver and costly stones so this first

00:36:18.000 corinthians 3 verse 12 with gold silver costly stones or with wood hey we're strong each one's

00:36:25.460 work will become obvious. It will be manifest. For the day will disclose it, because it will be

00:36:32.440 revealed by fire. The fire will test the quality of each one's work. Verse 14 now, if anyone's work

00:36:40.160 that he has built survives, he will receive a reward. But if anyone's work is burned up,

00:36:45.340 he will experience great loss. He will suffer great loss, but he himself will be saved,

00:36:50.520 but only as through fire what are your thoughts on that text yeah well we'll be saved at but as

00:37:01.520 only by fire through fire so that the kind of the imagery there is is yeah you're going to make it

00:37:09.020 into heaven but your coattails are going to be smoking so it's uh it is a curious text granted

00:37:18.160 But, I mean, there's only two kinds of people in this world, sheep and goats.

00:37:21.960 That's it.

00:37:22.540 So anyone who makes it into heaven, they do so because they are a sheep.

00:37:29.440 But there are teachers out there, preachers, who are genuinely converted, but they either, A, have, or both, they either or both have significant error in what they teach.

00:37:47.520 uh, they're not biblically qualified to teach. And there are, I mean, not every Christian

00:37:57.320 is biblically qualified to be a preacher. Right. Uh, so just because you're saved doesn't mean

00:38:03.160 that you should be behind the pulpit. Uh, and there's nothing wrong with that. Obviously every

00:38:07.640 Christian can't be a preacher and we're not supposed to be. So, um, uh, so there's that

00:38:12.980 aspect of it. Uh, there are teachers out there who have significant error. They're, they're

00:38:19.140 regenerate, but they've got some significant error. Uh, and there's a lot of preachers out

00:38:23.060 there, even preachers who have sound doctrine, but they do what they do for entirely the wrong

00:38:31.060 motives. Right. And that, that exists as well, unfortunately. And, um, and it's not that any

00:38:39.860 of us is completely free of pride. We're not. I'm not. You're not. None of us are. This side of our

00:38:47.760 glorification, none of us is completely free of pride. But we've got to go to war against that

00:38:55.240 pride. We've got to put to death at the knees of the body. And there's a lot of preachers out there

00:38:59.820 who may have sound doctrine. They may look good on paper, but they do what they do for the praise

00:39:05.420 men they do what they do um you know pride is a far bigger problem for some than it is right for

00:39:13.360 others and uh and and everything's going to be judged in the end including our motive why we do

00:39:18.500 what we do so yeah there's going to be some people as the imagery suggests you you get into heaven but

00:39:24.700 but your coattails are going to be smoking right so with that let me kind of just press a little

00:39:30.840 bit deeper so then what do you what do you do because it seems like then we almost need

00:39:35.100 a third category not not with sheeps and goats there's only two of those but in terms of faithful

00:39:41.220 shepherd false teacher wolf and it seems like there's got to be something in between because

00:39:47.360 what i'm getting at is there were some brothers and i've already you know shown my hand right

00:39:53.100 there by using the term brothers but i think there are some brothers that you and i would

00:39:56.340 would both be aware of and uh with some pretty big platforms in the church today um who you look

00:40:04.760 back on some of their teachings and you're like man that was really sound that was that was some

00:40:08.800 good gospel preaching and i praise god for that brother there are are just people have come in

00:40:15.240 droves uh to to christ because of their ministry they're preaching um and then and then there's

00:40:22.520 been adrift as of late it seems and uh and whether it's you know like there's the age-old kind of

00:40:31.680 prosperity gospel stuff that you've done a lot of work on but there's there's some new some new

00:40:36.260 things popping up their head critical race theory um i mean the egalitarian thing keeps coming in

00:40:42.660 feminism but that's that's you know it has some new new tactics you know it has some new tricks

00:40:48.020 from time to time, but it's the same old, same old thing. But, but the, the race issue has been

00:40:52.840 a big one, critical race theory. And I, and I praise God for guys like Tom Askell, Jared Longshore,

00:40:57.500 Votie Bauckham, John MacArthur, you know, guys who have stood up against that. But there's some guys

00:41:01.640 that like, I, I really used to, to like their ministry. I liked them and man, they just hook

00:41:07.860 line and sinker have gone woke and just drinking the Kool-Aid for lack of a better term. But I

00:41:14.840 don't want I don't feel comfortable calling them a false teacher you see what I'm saying that's

00:41:19.420 what I'm asking like with this third category I think because I think they're getting in to have

00:41:24.060 you know what I mean I like they have a gospel message but they're embracing this stuff that I

00:41:28.720 really think that if they if they I think they're trying to hold two things in tension that just

00:41:34.240 are diametrically opposed to one another and I think eventually because I believe that they are

00:41:38.160 brothers eventually I think they're going to let this nasty stuff go and and just hold on to that

00:41:42.460 gospel and repent and i'm and i'm praying and hoping and believing that because you can't hold

00:41:47.240 them both indefinitely because they they they're both diametrically opposed one's gonna gonna beat

00:41:52.920 out the other and um and you know and this woke woke gospel it is another gospel and it is in

00:41:59.080 opposition to the true gospel it it replaces repentance with penance you know there is no

00:42:03.640 there is now much condemnation in the woke church there's no forgiveness there's no uh this the sin

00:42:08.640 of racism is something that's the worst sin of all sins you know and it's it's unbiblical and

00:42:13.860 and it's not just unbiblical or extra biblical it it's um it is contrary to the teaching of

00:42:18.800 scripture and contrary to the gospel of jesus christ and i and you and i both know guys who've

00:42:23.400 they've embraced this and they're talking about their white privilege and and they're and why

00:42:27.920 it's why it's sin and you know repenting of being a racist and i'm like well if and saying there

00:42:32.620 still are a racist i'm like well then if you still are a racist then you should not still be an elder

00:42:36.900 you know if you really believe that then go ahead and resign from ministry you know what i mean and

00:42:41.260 so we've got that whole thing going on but some of these guys i really i just don't feel and maybe

00:42:46.420 it's me so maybe you need to just call call call me to to have some more courage but i don't feel

00:42:51.520 comfortable calling them false teachers at least at this juncture what do you think about that is

00:42:56.640 that a first corinthians 3 guy maybe very well could be yeah particularly if they don't write

00:43:04.700 the ship if they don't abandon it of course as you said a minute ago we would expect them to do

00:43:08.900 that uh it's been very disheartening that they have not done so already but uh yeah and and i'm

00:43:15.380 going to refrain from naming them because uh i don't you know no i don't i know i'm sure you

00:43:21.840 and i are thinking of probably a lot of the same guys uh yeah i can absolutely consider them to be

00:43:27.360 brothers uh but they have sadly and tragically been enchanted for whatever reason by the social

00:43:35.600 justice stuff and and that that is antithetical to the gospel on every conceivable level

00:43:44.100 yeah so well then let me ask this real quick so we're saying you know we start off the episode

00:43:50.220 saying there is a biblical precedence not just not just as permissible but there there is a

00:43:54.760 mandate to name publicly named false teachers but you and i are both not naming some of these

00:44:01.780 guys and so i guess i guess my question is um the guys that paul named demas do you think that all

00:44:08.360 the guys that paul named hymenaeus alexander demas these guys do you do you think they were all

00:44:13.400 do you think they're they were all um were some of them the first corinthians three do you think

00:44:20.720 And Paul, the same Paul who wrote 1 Corinthians 3, and some of them will make it into heaven, but with their coattails on fire, they really are brothers, and they really are personally trusting in a true gospel.

00:44:31.860 But somewhere in their ministry, they got off track and were building with wood and hay and stubble.

00:44:39.460 And I think the guys that me and you were both thinking of would fit that bill.

00:44:42.600 Do you think that some of the guys that Paul listed by name were that?

00:44:47.600 Or do you think that the principle is you only publicly name the full-blown, bona fide Benny Hinn false teacher?

00:44:56.940 Does that make sense?

00:44:58.880 Yeah, yeah, it does.

00:45:01.320 And my guess is, you know, in some of these that he named, we really don't know a lot of background information on them other than their names.

00:45:10.460 and what Paul said.

00:45:12.880 So there's not a whole lot of deep exegesis we can do

00:45:18.500 on exactly who these guys were

00:45:21.280 and what the background story they had was.

00:45:25.560 My guess is that some of them would have fit

00:45:30.500 into the 1 Corinthians 3 paradigm,

00:45:33.460 what Paul was speaking of.

00:45:34.540 Some of them are not in heaven now.

00:45:38.860 there yeah some of them were goats that looked like sheep initially they look like sheep but

00:45:45.660 that's the rocky soil of matthew 13 right you know initially they look good but uh then the

00:45:50.800 sun comes out trials of life scorched them away there's there's no root there there's no fertile

00:45:55.740 soil you know they look good for a while but then they they went out from us because they were not

00:46:01.060 of us so right right it's a i think there's some of both there yep okay that's fair enough all

00:46:08.480 all right well let's go ahead and uh wrap up so if you're listening and you're not already one of

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00:46:38.140 is just downstream from culture and culture and everything else is really just downstream from

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00:47:12.200 question for Justin, our bonus question. What are a few of the most dangerous false teachings in the

00:47:17.560 church today, besides the prosperity gospel? Because anybody who follows you, they know what

00:47:21.460 you think on that. So maybe let me make it more specific and say, besides the prosperity gospel,

00:47:26.460 But what do you think is one of the most dangerous false teaching in the church today?

00:47:31.000 And who are some of the most dangerous false teachers?

00:47:34.260 And those probably, those two questions go hand in hand.

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00:47:43.220 So, Justin, would you go ahead and close us out by just telling our listeners how they can be praying for you and how they can follow your ministry?

00:47:51.320 Sure, Joel.

00:47:52.240 Yeah.

00:47:52.460 Now, which one do you want me to do first, that or answer the question first?

00:47:57.520 Oh, no, no, we'll do that.

00:47:58.440 So we're going to, you're going to close this out, tell us how they can follow you, and then we'll come back on and we'll do the bonus question.

00:48:04.280 I got you, I got you.

00:48:05.540 Okay.

00:48:06.840 Yes, yes, you can follow me.

00:48:09.220 You can go to my website, justinpeters.org, and all my contact information is there.

00:48:15.200 I've got a ministry Facebook page.

00:48:19.520 I have a friend who keeps that up for me.

00:48:21.400 I'm also, though, increasingly active on YouTube, my YouTube channel, Justin Peters Ministries YouTube channel.

00:48:29.480 And the way people can be praying for me, this is going to sound like a Sunday school answer, but I honestly mean this.

00:48:36.000 Pray that not only in what I teach, but also in how I comport myself, that I would bring honor to Christ.

00:48:45.260 I never want to do anything to bring dishonor to him.

00:48:48.360 So pray that both in the content of what I teach and how I carry myself, that I, that I please Christ. That really is my greatest desire. So I would definitely appreciate people's prayers.

00:49:03.280 Great. And if you're going to pray for Justin, feel free with that prayer request to throw, throw Pastor Joel in there too, because that's, that's a good thing to pray for me also. So, all right, Justin, thank you so much. And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in. We appreciate it.

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00:49:46.320 You

The NXR Podcast - April 14, 2021

THEOLOGY APPLIED - Calling Out False Teachers By Name

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