In this episode of Theology Applied, Pastor Joel Webin is joined by John Harris, host of the podcast Conversations That Matter and author of several books, to call out the social justice gospel for the heresy that it actually is.
00:00:53.220He has a podcast that I'm familiar with called Conversations That Matter that I've been listening to, especially over the last month.
00:01:00.900And he's had a lot of great commentary in regards to social justice and also in regards to, well, really a lot of things just in the past few days regarding the jab or the point, you know, before you get the point.
00:01:15.720So anyway, so that's been really helpful.
00:01:19.080and grateful for his teaching. John, welcome to the show. Please introduce yourself to our guest.
00:01:24.140Yeah, thank you so much. Well, there's not much to say about me other than I guess I kind of came
00:01:31.260to podcasting and writing without a plan to do so. It just kind of happened, and here I am. But
00:01:39.620I was saved by grace at a young age. I grew up in upstate New York. My dad's a pastor,
00:01:44.520and I went to seminary and while I was there I found out that the social justice movement was
00:01:53.040taking a hold and it really was something that happened very quickly almost overnight
00:01:57.440and it concerned me greatly. I had been at secular university and heard a lot of the same talking
00:02:03.100points and now they're coming out of the mouth of seminary professors so that's what inspired me to
00:02:07.620start talking about this issue. Um, but, uh, I consider myself, you know, a furniture, a pair
00:02:13.560man, a hiker. Um, I don't know. I, uh, I love studying the word of God and preaching and, uh,
00:02:21.620I love cycling. There's a lot, I guess I don't want to give you all my hobbies, but, um, all that to
00:02:26.220say, um, it, it wasn't what I was planning, but it was what God has for me right now to focus on
00:02:32.260And it's helped some people. So hopefully, you know, as we talk today, some people will be just edified by our conversation, and they'll get to understand maybe some of the errors of this teaching. And not a lot of people want to go talk about errors and make that, you know, a big part of their life. But for right now, that's been a major part of mine.
00:02:54.240So. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, we'll go ahead and just jump right in a little bit of context here for our listeners. I've already shared this with John through email, but part of the purpose in doing this is a few months ago, we did an episode with a special guest, Justin Peters, and Justin Peters brings all the boys to the yard, you know, calling out the prosperity gospel.
00:03:17.840and we're grateful for Justin Peters and really the whole, you know,
00:05:12.200by name. And, uh, I've listened to John Harris and I think he's, he's the man for the job. So I
00:05:18.120wanted to invite him to help me on this episode, calling out woke preachers by name. So the first
00:05:22.380thing that I wanted you to do for us, John, uh, because the thing that made me and Justin Peters,
00:05:26.780I think stopped short and, and to alleviate Justin Peters of any guilt, he probably stopped
00:05:31.480short because that's, that's what I kind of led in that particular episode us to do. And he was
00:05:36.500probably just honoring me. But we did stop short. I take full responsibility for that. And so I'll
00:05:42.380just speak for myself. The reason why I stopped short is because this idea of, I think a lot of
00:05:48.600Christians think if we call someone out for being a false teacher, we are definitively saying that
00:05:54.400they are unregenerate. And so my question to you, John, is this, is certainty regarding an individual0.98
00:05:59.860salvation a necessary prerequisite for acknowledging that individual as a false teacher?
00:06:06.500yeah i don't think so um and i just want to say you know joel i appreciate what you just said i
00:06:13.260mean it takes it takes humility to say hey you know what i probably messed this up or i could
00:06:17.920have done better and uh i i do that all the time uh we all do and uh some of the one of the problems
00:06:24.560right now in my opinion is um there's a lot of guys that are probably you know and hopefully
00:06:32.200ignorant about the social justice movement. They bought into maybe certain aspects of it in some
00:06:37.180ways, or they've introduced it into their church, but they're not willing to admit that they were
00:06:42.380wrong. And so, and that's one of the main things that concerns me about guys who may even be
00:06:50.480Orthodox Christians. But what I see in scripture is a, there's calling out a false teaching and
00:06:58.880false teachers, because the concern is the church, it's the sheep, that they could be mauled by
00:07:03.760wolves. I don't see that coupled anywhere with this prerequisite that you must know for certain
00:07:12.100that they have a relationship with Jesus and are going to heaven. If you do call them out,
00:07:17.360it doesn't necessarily mean that you're stating that they're going to spend all of eternity in
00:07:21.640hell. Really, it's just, that's a completely different focus. And so I've taken the tact that
00:07:29.560the teaching is what the problem, that's the problem. And that's what's shipwrecking people's
00:07:36.340faith. So when a false teacher comes in and says something false, it's really not that hard. It's
00:07:41.620not rocket science. False teaching means teaching that's false. And yeah, specifically teaching that
00:07:48.640is related to core doctrines that we would consider fundamental to Christianity and the
00:07:55.980gospel in particular. You mentioned the word heresy, which just means really schism. It's a
00:08:02.080simple word, but I would say right now, what we see in the greater evangelical world is a schism.
00:08:07.280And I don't think anyone would deny that there's a schism. It's obvious. So I, yeah, all that to
00:08:14.280say, it doesn't have to get personal, but this is a tactic that's used. If you call out false
00:08:18.740teaching and you say someone's promoting it, immediately there's an offense. Like you're
00:08:22.660saying, I'm not saved. It's like, well, I'm not saying that, but now that you're so defensive
00:08:26.900about it and you're unwilling to be corrected, well, now we're going through kind of a Matthew
00:08:30.98018 process and maybe people are wondering whether you are. So that's kind of the long answer, but
00:08:37.400yeah. No, that's super helpful. And I think part of what you're getting to right there at the end
00:08:41.300of your answer is that another important factor that I think Christians need to be aware of is
00:08:45.900we're not talking, right, this isn't 2017, 2016, so we're not talking about somebody who preached
00:08:52.380one sermon on racial reconciliation that got a little bit into the weeds with some critical race
00:08:58.300theory assumptions, and then we're calling them out on a podcast. No, we're talking about
00:09:06.640we're talking about guys who for five years now, I mean, give or take, most of these guys that
00:09:12.800we're going to be calling out by name in this episode, it's been five years. And John and I
00:09:18.180both know firsthand that they have been corrected directly, just like Paul went to Peter to his
00:09:26.360face. They have been corrected directly dozens of times. And there has not been repentance.
00:09:34.100So we're not talking about 2017, somebody gets up, preaches a sermon on racial reconciliation that really wasn't true to biblical justice and was more so of a social justice, kind of whatever.
00:09:48.760And, you know, just to be frank, I can't remember, but I probably said some things in 2017.
00:09:57.120I don't know if I told that to you, John, but I was a pastor in Acts 29.
00:10:01.000and, you know, and, and I don't think I was ever drinking the Kool-Aid, uh, as, as much Kool-Aid
00:10:08.200as they were pouring, you know, I mean, every conference was racial reconciliation and every
00:10:12.380conference we're repenting corporate repentance for, and it, which is funny, you know, cause it's
00:10:16.500like if every year you're repenting and then it's like the next year you're like, okay, now this,
00:10:21.700this last year has been a year and we all repented last year. And to my knowledge, I cannot think of
00:10:27.700one instance this last year since my last annual repentance of committing the sin of racism um
00:10:34.660so why does doesn't my repentance from last year count or or is this not repentance are we doing
00:10:41.320penance is this the vulgate are we you know what's going on here and um and it was frustrating and
00:10:46.780eric mason he came out with his book woke church and um that and uh and and building animosity
00:10:53.740between some of the guys in my area, Acts 29 pastors, because of my outspokenness against
00:10:59.640the racial reconciliation, which nobody, I'm not against racial reconciliation, but the way,
00:11:06.480what they meant by that term, and certainly Eric Mason's book, all that, you know, came to a head,
00:11:12.200and anyways, I, you know, I was, I was warmly invited to leave, and I, you know, also decided
00:11:19.120to leave. And so my point is, uh, we're not talking about, you know, a one-off we're talking
00:11:24.300about, um, individuals who for years now in conferences, in pulpits, in local churches,
00:11:31.020in articles and writings and books, um, have, have been going down this path. Uh, so it's not
00:11:38.000just a mistake. It's not a mulligan. Um, and they have been corrected and they're refusing to,
00:11:43.680to, to repent. And so John, do you have any thoughts on that? You want to add anything?
00:11:49.120I think you're spot on, Joel. There's a few things that we could point to along the way that would have been like moments of dividing lines, I guess. One would be the MLK 50 conference in 2018. Then later that year, you had the T4G conference where David Platt got up and gave a horrific sermon on justice.
00:12:16.620jose uh yeah yeah let justice roll down like waters and then and the church is guilty of
00:12:22.400racism and the rest of it was just well racial disparities exist so therefore we're in sin
00:12:26.840because um we somehow tolerate these disparities or something like that uh then you have um after
00:12:34.100that the resolution nine uh that was passed in the southern baptist convention in 2000 um i guess
00:12:40.440was that 19 now i'm losing track the years are going by so quick yeah i think so and uh and yeah
00:12:46.000those were the three big ones. I mean, there,
00:12:48.180there's a lot of little ones you can point to in there, but there was kind of,
00:12:52.920you know, the Shepherds Q and a, right. That one.
00:12:55.640Yeah. I was there in person. Yeah. In person.
00:12:58.480And I remember when that happened, I mean, I, I was just like,
00:13:01.780this is historic. Like something just happened here.
00:13:04.000This was not just like this panel. They didn't, they,
00:13:07.720they didn't mean for this to happen. Like they got heated. I mean,
00:13:10.920Moeller was, he was angry. He was defensive.
00:13:13.100um because it was just like what do you disagree with with this statement well i'm just not you
00:13:19.300know i just don't really sign statements you know him and ligan and and mark dever guys who who i
00:13:24.260have really really appreciated and still appreciate on on certain aspects and certain points um but
00:13:29.980it was just it was like why did you not sign the statement um well i wouldn't have written it that
00:13:36.000way okay could you give me one tangible example what's one portion of the statement that you you
00:13:41.760maybe you didn't even disagree but you didn't like the wording and they couldn't cite one example
00:13:45.900and so really what was what was not said but absolutely said was um we couldn't sign the
00:13:52.720statement because there's something going on behind closed doors that if we signed you know
00:13:59.280and it just and to thousands of people it was just that like like the cover was ripped off
00:14:05.360And everyone got to see, and we were like, you know, everyone was shocked. Like Ligon Duncan, Mark Dever, and Albert Moeller, they won't do this. They will not do this because, not because they have a theological reason, not because there's actually something wrong in the statement, not because they disagree with it, not even because it's worded differently.
00:14:28.240That's what they're saying, but they can't give one tangible example of something they would have worded differently.
00:14:32.500It's because they don't want to be aligned with this crew because of the optics, because of how it's going to look.
00:14:41.940And these are guys that I've always, you know, as a young pastor, especially when I was in California a couple years ago, I mean, that's one of the biggest thing any Christian, especially pastor, struggle with is the fear of man, the fear of man, the fear of man.
00:14:53.860And so these are men that I look to as as titans of biblical examples of what it is not to bow the knee to the fear of man.
00:15:18.460I was actually I was driving back from Liberty University and I started getting all these texts.
00:15:23.860and uh I watched it later that night and I was up late because then they
00:15:28.240I think one of the things that led to it being so big even bigger was they removed it I think
00:15:34.560that night it was like the one session they deleted and then everyone was like freaking out
00:15:39.740and I don't know that that had anything to do with uh trying to hide it because they uploaded it
00:15:44.240again but um I just remember thinking like this is I wasn't surprised so much about um
00:15:53.180Lincoln Duncan I mean he wrote the forward to woke church I saw what he said at T4G and I knew it was
00:16:00.040it was way off um Mark Dever I wasn't actually that surprised about either um Jonathan I know
00:16:07.260Jonathan Lehman and Thabiti Anabwile are involved with nine marks and both of them I would say very
00:16:12.620much in the social justice uh type of vein and then um but Al Mohler was the guy that I honestly
00:16:19.640it was really just people were telling me that we're close to him. I mean, people that were
00:16:24.480really close knew him for years. They were reaching out to me saying like, he's, he's
00:16:30.260waffling on this. He's not going to come through. And I just really doubted it. I thought, no,
00:16:35.440he's going to come through. He's conservative. He's, and then when I saw that, I realized
00:16:40.020I don't think he's going to come through. So it was, it was kind of a, an awakening for a lot of
00:16:47.360people. We realized, those who were paying attention at least to it, that some of the men
00:16:52.940that we thought were very solid theologically and have some track records of being solid were not
00:16:58.360going to stand up to the current threat, which is, I would say, worse in some ways than the
00:17:05.440prosperity gospel, because it is a false gospel, just like the prosperity gospel, but it's more
00:17:12.160subversive and it has a political dimension. And so it's very well funded. There's a lot of
00:17:17.920interest in trying to persuade Christians to vote Democrat or to not vote Republican or to shift
00:17:24.740them more in more progressive direction. And that's not coming from Christians. That's coming0.91
00:17:29.220from secularists who really wish they could get rid of all these nasty Trump voters and these
00:17:34.600pro-life voters so there's an engine behind this thing uh that is you know has a vested interest
00:17:42.680and that we don't see that as much with the prosperity gospel so yeah i mean i remember
00:17:47.860even john oliver you know making fun of prosperity gospel guys on a late night show you know so
00:17:54.560you're absolutely right because i know right so hollywood and and you know any any major corporate
00:18:02.600I mean, whether it's big corporate or whether it's tech or whether it's, you know, the government, you know, and the civil magistrate, none of them are going to suppress a video that we do calling out Benny Hint.
00:18:17.720But when we start saying something about social justice and the welfare state and, you know, these kinds of – because really what we're doing is we're finally – and I think this is the problem.
00:18:31.420But I think what we're finally doing is we're saying, hey, the scripture applies to more than just marriage conferences, parenting conferences, and how to run your church on Sunday morning.
00:18:43.080Because that's what it's been in America for the longest time is home and church, home and church, home and church, as though that's all the Bible has to say.
00:18:50.000And that's why I appreciate guys like Doug Wilson, who some guys really don't like.
00:18:54.640And there's some doctrines that I would disagree with, but Doug Wilson, you know, he's got the serrated edge, you know, so he's got your sharp tone.
00:19:02.460And a lot of people, you know, they'll say a theological thing, but really a lot of them just don't like the way he says things, his tone.
00:19:08.820But I think he's been just on the money again and again and again when it comes to applying the scripture to every realm of life.
00:19:16.220You know, their whole saying with his church in Moscow, Idaho is all of Christ for all of life, all of Christ for all of life.
00:19:23.040And that doesn't mean that the Bible speaks, right? The perspicuity of scripture, which is an unclear word that means clarity, you know, but the clarity of scripture, it doesn't mean that all scripture is equally clear. So it doesn't mean that the Bible speaks to all of life with the same clarity. But what it does mean is that the principles, God's law and his gospel have application and implications beyond just Jesus, Lord of my heart.
00:19:48.860And I think American evangelicalism has had this private lordship Christianity.
00:19:54.420He's the lord of my sweet little heart, and he has something to say about how I parent my children, how I love my wife, and the church I go to on Sunday, and that's it.
00:20:05.780And now all of a sudden, you've got guys speaking out like you and I in the political realm, economically, and all these different things with legislation.
00:20:14.780and uh and you're right so that like the guys who the social justicians in the church they're
00:20:21.420going to have the world on their side and and it's it's formidable yeah well some some of it
00:20:31.660like in my case it's a counter reaction to social justice warriors that have stepped outside of that
00:20:38.920formula of home and church and they've decided they're going to quote unquote engage culture
00:20:43.660That's the term they often use. And what they meant by that, though, was they're going to put a Christian veneer on progressive politics.
00:20:51.500And the counter reaction has been, I think, a rediscovery for many people of the really thousands of years of Christian tradition and, of course, coming from biblical principles, but developed over time by a lot of people, a lot of smart people, people that thought deeply about the government.
00:21:14.160I mean, John Calvin, even if you look at I mean, we're reformed guys here. So if you look back at the institutes, I mean, he has a whole chapter on the civil magistrate and thinks very highly of the civil magistrate and is very thoughtful about what that role is.
00:21:31.500And we've had development in different regions and different traditions, but all Christian over thousands of years and centuries, and in our context, the English common law, very influenced by Christianity.
00:21:47.160And so, and that influenced our founding documents and where we are today.
00:21:51.660And so I think the social justice brand of Christianity ignores all of that.
00:21:56.620They, they don't, they really just want to cherry pick a few scriptures, you know, let justice roll down like waters, you know, revelation is justice. What is justice, right? They never do. Yeah, they just assume the world's definition of these things. Revelation seven, look, every tribe, tongue and nation. So that means egalitarian equality and equity and diversity. And it's like, well, that that's not in the passage, but they just assume these things and press them into scripture.
00:22:24.500I'm actually reading a book right now by a social justice warrior in the church.
00:22:30.240And she makes this this whole her whole entire book is premised on Genesis one and two.
00:22:39.260And it's like every time she goes to reference Genesis one and two, I'm like, that's not what it means there.
00:22:44.900But she's got a pre-written script.0.84
00:22:47.100And then we'll put a little Christian veneer over it and make sure and hope that the Christians don't actually like look into it too deeply.0.66
00:22:54.060So they just kind of accept it. And that'll ingratiate us to the world. That'll make us hip and cool.0.69
00:23:00.260You know, they'll think that we're allies with them and they're not going to come and persecute us.
00:23:04.460And, you know, like they want to do, they'll realize, no, we're actually on their side of this.
00:23:09.720And I think that's a lot of the motivation behind it.
00:23:13.400So I agree. I agree. I think part of the problem also is, you know, so just law and gospel, law and gospel.
00:23:19.540And I think, you know, so the privatized lordship of Christ where he's Lord only of my heart, right?
00:23:24.640That Jesus doesn't actually want anything beyond my, you know, this private relationship with Jesus and home and church, home and church.
00:23:32.540But then I think there's also in terms of the law of God, there's such an aversion in evangelicals to the law of God, right?
00:23:40.280And anything that you start talking about obedience and immediately people think legalism or they think prosperity gospel.
00:23:46.700like all the time I tell my church obedience brings blessing that's not the prosperity gospel
00:23:51.680right so if I teach my kids hey every single day if you buy a lottery ticket you're gonna win
00:23:56.580you're going to win eventually and it'll probably only take a week or two you're going to win you're
00:24:01.120gonna be filthy rich that would be the equivalent of the prosperity gospel but if I teach my kids
00:24:05.000hey if you get an education you work really really hard at a trade and you're faithful
00:24:09.220and you don't get pregnant out of wedlock and you don't get into absurd debt then ordinarily
00:24:16.680ordinarily, God is sovereign, and tragedy hits, you could get cancer, but ordinarily,
00:24:21.720by the end of your life, you'll be reasonably wealthy. That's not the prosperity gospel.
00:24:27.220That's called logic. That's just obedience brings blessing. Or the blessing of, if I keep my
00:24:31.840wedding vows, which would be obedience to God's law, thou shall not commit adultery,
00:24:37.440my children will be better off than if I was an adulterer. That's obedience bringing blessing.
00:24:45.200And I think that just, you talk about the law of God, you talk about obedience, and the blessing that comes by obedience, and the imperative of obedience, and Christians immediately just start saying, legalism, legalism, just give me the gospel, give me the gospel, as though God's law has no bearing on the life of the New Testament Christian.
00:25:04.540And I think, I'd like to hear your response to this, but I think part of that is because we have had historically such a wonderful nation with such just laws that the church kind of, you know, the church was able to say, you know, we don't really have to say a whole lot when it comes to justice in our nation because the civil magistrate is doing, in general, a pretty decent job.
00:25:31.300And so I know the church's job is primarily grace and sacrament, or the ordinances, you know, and to the sword, the sword has been given to the state, not to the church.
00:25:43.100But I think the church has a prophetic role in holding the state accountable to wield the sword justly according to, by what standard, by God's standard.
00:25:53.860And I think the church has just kind of conceded and given up that role because I think we've gotten apathetic because we've had – the state has historically done a decent job in America with legislation, with justice, with those kinds of things.
00:26:09.120And then it just got way off track, and then the church had lost its edge, so to speak, in terms of understanding biblical justice, understanding politics, understanding the law of God and its implications.
00:26:22.480or like the 1689 talks about even the civil law having a general equity right that's what paul
00:26:28.080does when he says don't muzzle the ox while it treads the grain he's saying all right if you
00:26:31.600muzzle your ox while it's treading the grain as a new testament christian that's that's really just0.67
00:26:37.160it's foolish but it doesn't necessarily it's not necessarily a sin but it's foolish but here's the0.91
00:26:42.200general equity let's apply it to paying a pastor a wage and so even the civil law like whether it0.98
00:26:48.120be a precipice on on the roof you know like you could you could say well that's uh speed limits
00:26:52.380and seat belts or what however you would but there's a general equity and i think christians
00:26:56.140have just they've gotten rid of the ten commandments even and and even more so civil
00:27:01.240laws and and general equity and all the just as though that hasn't that's all legalism that's all
00:27:08.160irrelevant and now and now the state has shifted from justice you know to social justice which is
00:27:16.280not justice and the church uh is is just is just biblically dull and and not prepared to
00:27:23.740to to uh to speak out what do you do would you agree with that or could you add some stuff to
00:27:29.640that yeah no all great points joel um yeah so historically in america uh i think because it
00:27:38.660has been such a christianized country and most of the people coming uh even if they were a different
00:27:45.140variety. I mean, you had, um, you know, within that big tent of Christendom, you had Catholics
00:27:49.860and Quakers as well, but everyone had a general respect for the Bible and, uh, for the virtues
00:27:56.680expressed in it and those applied to the civil government. And so when you have a country that
00:28:02.000starts out with seven of 13 of its states are basically theocracies, uh, in, in the modern
00:28:07.940parlance, they would have at least called them that they would have, uh, required some kind of
00:28:12.200a religious test to even hold office. You can trace kind of this secular slide that's happened
00:28:19.640over the course of the last 250 years. And we're to the point now where the church is kind of like
00:28:26.480in a bunker. Christians who actually take the Bible seriously are the kooks now, and they're0.96
00:28:34.880very sensitive to that, I think. They don't want to be thought of in a negative light, but they
00:28:40.160know they are. And they're feeling more and more like they're kind of a minority. And even though
00:28:45.260maybe there's a general respect for the Bible, it's nothing like the way that people hundreds
00:28:52.760of years ago respected it. So today, I think Christians who are trying to grope for some1.00
00:28:59.140kind of irrelevance are using the social justice movement as that opportunity. Lincoln Duncan even0.94
00:29:05.060kind of said as much in that Shepard's Q&A when he talked about his grandchildren and how he wanted
00:29:10.400them to not be courted into the arms of the LGBTQ lobby. And the price he had to pay was to get woke0.89
00:29:20.780on race. If he got woke on the race issue, maybe they wouldn't go that far. So you can already see
00:29:26.780this calculation going in his mind. Please like me. Please like Christianity. And if you think
00:29:33.020that we're you know kind of uh hip and cool and with the revolution that's going to overturn
00:29:38.580society and create a utopia maybe you'll like us and so um i think christians have forgotten
00:29:44.120largely kind of like i said before there's thousands of years of tradition and uh the
00:29:50.520scripture has been applied in many different contexts to to the political realm but christians
00:29:54.920have largely forgotten about that and and i think you're right they haven't had to think about it
00:29:58.980deeply. Most of the people that got elected to the office claimed to be Christian or were trying
00:30:05.060in some way, or they pretended to try to apply some form of Christianity. And so it just wasn't
00:30:12.140something the church needed to get involved with. Everyone knew the Bible stories. Everyone had
00:30:16.540their basic virtues kind of formed in them when they were young in Sunday school and that kind
00:30:24.680of thing. So now we're to a point where the church is like, the leaders in the church are
00:30:30.420like, that's not true anymore. And we never, we kind of got lazy. We didn't, we haven't developed
00:30:37.780at least recently. I shouldn't say we haven't developed. We haven't recently applied. We're
00:30:43.360not used to applying the standards that we've been given to the current context. And so I'm
00:30:50.380encouraged uh there's a lot of people like yourself um who are we're actually doing that
00:30:56.160now and we're just bypassing the evangelicals who would rather um gain merit from the state and
00:31:04.560uh try to be liked by them uh we're concerned about being liked by god because he's the only
00:31:10.380one that we are required to please so right and and in god's merciful providence you know you said
00:31:16.680were bypassing some of the, you know, we could call them gatekeepers in the past with evangelicalism.
00:31:22.360In God's merciful providence, I think of 500 years ago with the Reformation, it's not just that,
00:31:27.360you know, God put a fire in Luther, you know, to stand up to Roman Catholicism in his day. But
00:31:34.020at the same time, providentially, there was also this little thing called the printing press,
00:31:39.180you know, and it's funny how God and his sovereignty sometimes couples reformation
00:31:42.600the church with innovation um in the culture and in technology and i and i think of how merciful it
00:31:49.540is um of the lord uh as the church is is is going a direction that you and i would have some some
00:31:56.880serious concerns about um but for the lord uh simultaneously um to with with the internet and
00:32:05.020social media and what we're doing right now with where you can just you can sit in a bedroom with
00:32:09.420your phone, you know, and be able to be heard by thousands of people. And I just think what
00:32:15.580merciful providence of the Lord at a time when the church is, you know, so like when Rome's
00:32:21.100ramping up indulgences, God not only, you know, puts conviction in the mind and heart of a reformer
00:32:28.260to stand against it, but he also provides the technical, technological, I should say,
00:32:33.960means in order to spread that reformation. And I see something similar occurring in our day.
00:32:42.000It's a scary, but also really exciting time to be a Christian.
00:32:48.380Oh, yeah. There's a lot of negative things we could focus on, but hey, we get to live at a very
00:32:54.120important time in human history. And we're going to be able, hopefully, if we aren't persecuted
00:33:00.380to the point of dying or something, we'll be able to tell our kids and grandkids, you know, about
00:33:04.140when we stood and that kind of thing. So this isn't time to shirk away from battle. But one
00:33:10.520of the things and I don't know if you were going to get here. And if I'm going premature with this,
00:33:14.000you just let me know. But I as I think you wanted to talk about kind of the social justice gospel
00:33:21.840and that the whole social justice panoply and why it's heretical and some of the names of the
00:33:27.500false teachers so i can you know if you want to probe any of these things we can do that but i'll
00:33:33.320just briefly if you want go through why i think it's a heresy or or a false teaching is the word
00:33:39.040i usually use so um so most of your listeners probably i'm guessing here would be uh have no
00:33:46.540problem saying prosperity gospel hey that's that's wrong that's a false gospel i want them to think
00:33:51.780though for a moment about you know joel osteen for a minute let's say the first time joel osteen
00:33:57.000let's say, gave an off-color message where he's just kind of like, you know, there's something
00:34:01.980just off about that. Think of yourself, if you didn't know anything more about Joel Osteen,
00:34:07.660you just heard that one message, what would you have done if you were sitting in the audience
00:34:11.640or if you had the opportunity to talk to him? You probably would think you'd want to give him
00:34:17.200the benefit of the doubt at first. Well, maybe he's just talking about God's blessing, but he
00:34:22.240went a little too far there, almost acting like it's guaranteed. Let me talk to him. Let's figure
00:34:29.240out what he's actually getting at. And I think that would be the appropriate, instead of denouncing
00:34:35.780him as a heretic at first, I think that would be the appropriate posture. And I think all of us
00:34:39.860have tried to do that with the social justice movement. Most of us, I should say, who are
00:34:44.560trying to engage this. When we see someone say something off, we want to engage it. But over
00:34:51.060time like you said at the beginning there's been repetition there's been confrontation there's been
00:34:55.400reject rejecting that confrontation and i think it starts out kind of like paul confronting peter
00:35:02.020and and all it really takes it doesn't even take false teaching this is really key all it really
00:35:06.940takes is being unclear about the gospel that's all that's all peter was doing paul said he was being
00:35:12.980unclear about the gospel he was sitting in a place that his actions were saying do you agree with
00:35:19.780these judaizers because that's what it looks like and that's all it took for him to oppose him to
00:35:23.720his face and so there's nothing wrong with doing that so that's that's the first thing i just wanted1.00
00:35:29.680to say is even if this what i'm about to describe is a slight infraction which i don't think it is
00:35:34.480there is um precedent for confronting that so the issue with the social justice stuff there's a few
00:35:41.560things but number one it's a different epistemology meaning their idea of truth and how you find truth
00:35:47.200and what truth is. They believe that they're postmodernists. They have a version of usually
00:35:52.100standpoint epistemology where someone has a greater insight into reality because of their
00:35:57.320social location. So that would mean some external feature like their race or their gender or
00:36:02.540something like their sexual orientation. They have access to truth that we don't have. That's
00:36:08.400just like Gnosticism. And it's solely based on their identity. It's not based on what scripture
00:36:15.140says, everyone has access to the Bible and to the truth. Approved workmen, you need not be ashamed.
00:36:21.480The Brians studied the scripture. It takes work. It takes digging a bit, but it's not, no one's0.64
00:36:29.100prohibited because of their social location from understanding scripture. You might have to learn
00:36:33.660a language, you know, that kind of thing. But it's not like there's a wall that they're going
00:36:37.960to hit and they just can't go past it because they're a white male or, you know, they're a0.81
00:36:43.140black female or whatever the case may be so that's number one um that destroys revelation you can't0.91
00:36:49.220have a revelation that you can rely upon if standpoint epistemology is true um the second
00:36:54.620thing is um the the metaphysic of social justice so their theory of reality social justicians kind
00:37:01.360of look at reality and they see one thing they see oppressors they see oppressed they have very firm
00:37:07.080designations for those classes and all of reality becomes one thing that's why racism is like on the
00:37:12.380mcdonald's menu right it's everything's racist uh you walk into a room you know like the cops do
00:37:18.040look at the crime scene with the flashlight that that can show blood and it's like everything's
00:37:23.020blood and that's just an inaccurate reading of reality itself and and the creation god's given
00:37:29.600us he's given us five senses um he's given us a mind that can think and reality is made up of a
00:37:35.180lot more than just power. We're just oppression. There's a fuller spectrum that the Bible conveys
00:37:43.400to us about what reality actually is. So that's the second thing. Third thing is their ethics.
00:37:47.920Their ethics are redistributive. They're egalitarian instead of distributive and
00:37:56.080hierarchical. So scripture presents hierarchies. God's even woven some of them into creation.
00:38:02.920when there's an unjust hierarchy there's a there's a way to deal with it and it's not revolution it's
00:38:08.180reformation and um primarily i will get more into that if we want but uh broad painting with broad
00:38:14.920strokes that's what scripture teaches and um and then justice is blind justice you don't treat
00:38:21.540someone differently just because of some external feature or how it will benefit you or they're your
00:38:26.320cousin or they're poor and you have compassion you you apply the law evenly and so that's biblical
00:38:31.840justice. Social justice is you account for disparities. So you actually have to be racist
00:38:37.800or have to be sexist to apply it in the way they actually want to apply it. So those are some of
00:38:44.080the big things. And then one last thing, and then I know you probably have a point to make, but
00:38:50.040their gospel, their gospel that they give us when it's syncretized with Christianity is completely
00:38:58.740antithetical to the Christian gospel. And it's just like the prosperity gospel, except
00:39:04.060instead of an individual getting rich and that being the point, the gospel becomes an engine
00:39:09.580for egalitarian social change. So it's all of society gets better. All of society is going to
00:39:15.000prosper and you're going to have a utopia if everyone just gets together corporately and does
00:39:19.360this thing. And oftentimes it comes across just like the Galatian heresy. So gospel issue, you'll
00:39:26.060hear that term a lot, or gospel above all, or the just gospel conferences. In fact, in the book,
00:39:32.880it's not out yet, but I just wrote it, and it'll probably come out in about a month.
00:39:36.500I have a whole chapter on this, and I just go quote after quote of guys like Russell Moore,
00:39:42.600and Matt Chandler, and David Platt, and a lot of these guys, and where they talk about the gospel,
00:39:48.520and then they smuggle works in. There's some kind of a law that you have to follow,
00:39:52.300and that's the gospel and the gospel and the law are two separate categories so um paul would
00:39:59.520enantimatize the social justice gospel and he would be calling out today russell moore david
00:40:05.460platt the bd anabwile tim keller uh the list goes on and on he would call them out and he would say
00:40:11.680this is false and the guys that like al moeller uh who um you know maybe there's actually some
00:40:18.860things I could argue that Al Mohler might be on more on their vein, but best case scenario,
00:40:24.060someone like an Al Mohler, uh, would it be like a Peter who's like, you're being confusing here,
00:40:28.920man. You're being unclear about the gospel. Why are you eating with them? You know? So,
00:40:33.680um, that's really fair. A lot of guys with Mohler, just real quick to interrupt,
00:40:37.660but yeah, please with Mohler. Cause, cause if you listen to the briefing, I mean,
00:40:40.780most of the briefing, I really agree. Although the one thing with the briefing is sometimes I'm
00:40:44.140like, Hey, you know, like I'm, I'm all for ending abortion, but, um, there's some other stories
00:40:49.280that I feel like you're not hitting on purpose, uh, to stick to, you know, but so it's not even
00:40:54.540what he says. It's, it's what, what he chooses to talk about. But anyways, the point is when you
00:40:59.120think of Southern seminary and you think of guys on staff and you think of books on the shelf,
00:41:02.840you know, and I've talked, talked to guys, uh, seminary students and those kinds of things.
00:41:07.100It's, um, I think Michael O'Fallon described it as the Mott and Bailey. Could you, could you
00:41:11.680explain that uh briefly are you familiar with the mott and bailey strategy of just did you hear did
00:41:16.680you hear michael yeah talk about that yeah yeah well um i'm not sure who came up with that
00:41:22.000originally i think james lindsey told me about it a few years ago uh and he so it's just like a
00:41:27.560trojan horse that's that's the analogy i usually use but the mott and bailey is like uh the mott
00:41:32.220is in a field and that's where people it's like you go into the tower and you defend yourself and0.99
00:41:37.900then the bailey's you come out i guess and so um they all right so like a term like black lives
00:41:45.280matter would be a montan bailey type term where of course like does anyone disagree with that right
00:41:50.400black lives matter everyone agrees with black lives matter and so but the but what they're0.80
00:41:55.660smuggling into it um when you're not looking when you're not paying attention is okay now you have0.85
00:42:02.100to listen to black voices and do whatever they say and it's only these approved voices who by0.81
00:42:07.260the way are socialists and they're going to tell you how to redistribute your platforms and your0.93
00:42:10.360income and your influence and all that so like that that that somehow that's what black lives
00:42:15.700matter is and you're like wait a minute hold on like i just think they have intrinsic work
00:42:20.340and so um that's often how the social justice movement progresses by these very simple obvious
00:42:26.580truths that no one disagrees with but then they smuggle into them all these other uh terms and
00:42:33.120assumptions and then they vilify you if you disagree with any of those assumptions and they0.83
00:42:38.140say well you you clearly then don't believe black lives matter if you're not willing to give up all
00:42:42.400your income or something so um so the mot the mot is like the fortress the bailey is like where all
00:42:49.360the serfs are and all your agriculture and crops and the village and so so basically the bailey is
00:42:54.800like we're advancing we're taking ground we're we have an agenda a very progressive aggressive
00:43:01.500agenda and we're pushing this and we're pushing that we're talking about reparations you know
00:43:06.220but then the mot is like your your fortress where whenever you're being countered with an argument
00:43:11.720um the mot is the more easily defensible portion of of your your position and so it's like you're
00:43:19.020out there on the bailey you know boom expanding expanding expanding going for reparations going
00:43:24.200for critical race theory going for this going for that and then and then somebody calls you on it
00:43:29.300And we see this within evangelicalism, and Michael O'Fallon at least said that Mulder may be an example of it.
00:43:36.480If Michael O'Fallon was listening to this, he would say, no, he is an example of it.
00:43:39.980But the point is, to be fair to Michael O'Fallon, he would say he is an example of it.
00:43:43.260But the point is that you press somebody like Mulder, and then boom, they can go back and retreat exactly what you're saying, John, into the easily defensible mot, the strong tower, and say, look, all I'm saying is that black lives matter.0.87
00:43:57.860Are you going to disagree with that?0.63
00:43:59.700Well, I'll show you what I'll share a personal story with you about Danny Akin.
00:44:04.680I had a 45 minute phone call with him about a year and a half, maybe two years ago.
00:44:08.820Now, I don't remember now, but it was a little while ago, but it was all about Southeastern,
00:44:15.080And and he did this throughout the entire conversation, basically.
00:44:19.240It's like, all right, Dr. Akin, you have a professor there, Matthew Mullins.
00:44:24.200He said that if you are white, you should not adopt a black child because you won't be able to give them the life that they they should deserve and that they need.
00:44:34.180And there's there's a lot of assumptions behind this. And, you know, and and then what what he did was, well, you know, we just we just believe in diversity here at Southeastern.
00:44:47.060We just believe that people should be accepted and included. And that's the kind of thing throughout the conversation I kept running into is I cite a specific example of something. Okay, you know, Walter Strickland said this, he conflated the law in the gospel and was a social justice version of the law. That's liberation theology.
00:45:06.400well what he was really trying to say is that we we just need a world where you know that that that
00:45:14.120kind of thing and so that's the mutton bailey where it's like you never can quite you can't
00:45:18.900pin jello to the wall you can never quite understand or they'll never they'll never give
00:45:22.840you the right to think that you've understood them they'll always say what we're really trying
00:45:26.920to do is something that everyone already agrees on we just want to fight racism here we we just
00:45:31.840don't want women to be oppressed it's like yeah but you said something that you're saying that
00:45:37.000women should be preachers no we just don't want them to be oppressed so and then what happens is
00:45:42.020for any onlooker so for any any third party right so you they do something that's on the bailey it's
00:45:48.720aggressive it's it's crt it's reparations it's neo-marxism i mean it's it's socialism it's
00:45:54.560communism it's it's way out there it's clearly against god's word you call them on it right so
00:45:59.540then your conservative christians with a spine the biblical biblical justicians we call them on it
00:46:06.220and then boom they they retreat back to the mott and say look all we're saying is it
00:46:12.740some simple cliche thing that everyone and that's just that's just you and them but there's this
00:46:19.000third party watching and what it looks like to the third party is we're being we're being harsh
00:46:24.620right isn't that isn't that the play again and again and again well okay but john your tone
00:46:31.160though you know or you know and it's just in that 11th commandment is the 11th commandment is strong
00:46:37.600with you young padawan you know like it's just like this thou shalt be nice um and all of a
00:46:43.140sudden it's more important the bible does care about what we say right we want to rebuke i think
00:46:47.740of paul's admonition you know rebuke your opponents with gentleness not knowing if god might grant to
00:46:52.000them repentance um that they may that they may turn um and we always forget the last part where
00:46:57.300it says after having been taken captive by satan to do his will right so they've been right so our
00:47:03.600battle is not against flesh and blood however it's against principalities however the one who
00:47:08.300we are battling with does take flesh and blood captive to do his will and so that doesn't mean
00:47:14.360we pick up a sword and we slice down flesh and blood but but we do pick up a sword a double-edged
00:47:19.060sword sharper than a double-edged sword the word of god and we demolish strongholds and
00:47:23.740vain philosophy and every empty lofty opinion that sets itself over christ and uh and it's not
00:47:30.700i mean that imagery is not a sugar and spice everything nice you know mr rogers imagery it's
00:47:39.060it it is a it's warfare and and it's supposed to be warfare and and and so and i i can't help but
00:47:46.180think, I really think that part of it, see, this is what I think, give it five years, right? If
00:47:51.780things continue to go the way they are in the church and in our nation, in five years, I think
00:47:57.320a lot of guys who called people like you, John, and me, and Votie Bauckham, you know, and Michael0.59
00:48:03.060O'Fallon, these kinds of guys, a lot of the Christians who genuinely are, we don't know,
00:48:07.540we don't have election goggles, but let's say five years from now, let's just say they truly
00:48:11.060were regenerate. I think a lot of those guys who were calling us harsh today and a couple of years
00:48:15.380ago, in five years, if God doesn't send serious reformation to our nation and to the evangelical
00:48:22.420church, in five years, I think they'll be saying the same things. And so my point is, the difference
00:48:28.680is, it's not that objectively, what we're saying, or even how we're saying it, is objectively harsh
00:48:35.900by biblical categories. The reason why it's perceived as harsh is because we have the majority
00:48:41.320of Christians in the church today who don't realize we're at war so so when when you shoot
00:48:47.120when the enemy is storming the camp and you pick up your rifle and you see them right like like
00:48:52.700like Elijah's servant you know um or Elisha's servant and you see just this just multitudes
00:48:58.780and they're storming the camp and and you scramble and grab your gun and pick it up and and boom you
00:49:04.540pop one in the head you will immediately be indicted and accused of being harsh if
00:49:11.180if the three comrades that you're sitting with having a picnic with if they're so blind and so
00:49:18.280deaf that they they that they have no awareness whatsoever that the camp is being stormed they're
00:49:23.600like dude we're out here having a picnic you just picked up a gun and popped off around what are you
00:49:29.740like you're reckless you're harsh you're you're you're immature there's still a lot of youthful
00:49:36.460angst and zeal in you that needs to get worked out you know with maturity over time maybe
00:49:41.620maybe you're not ready to be a pastor maybe like and that's what you hear and that's what you hear
00:49:45.600and that's what and i like that illustration because i think it rings true i think that
00:49:48.620it's not that in clear objective categories we are missing the fruit of the spirit that is
00:49:53.080gentleness or we are actually engaging in harsh rhetoric that would be a sinful harshness um it's
00:49:59.420it's that we are using biblically permissible language so it's not just what we're saying is
00:50:04.420true theologically i believe in many cases even how we're saying it does fit biblical qualifications
00:50:11.280for um for the fruit of the spirit for godly character not just in what we say our content
00:50:17.380but in how we say it our tone and yet it's being it's being condemned again and again and again
00:50:23.240because number one the content they have no refutation for because it's true and and so
00:50:29.160it's easier to condemn the man than the message when the message is true and and then in terms of
00:50:34.160the man i think one of the reasons the man is being written off in terms of well it's not what
00:50:38.240you said it's how you said it it's your tone is because not because he's objectively doing
00:50:43.560something sinful but because we we are we're we're watchmen on the wall saying that the enemy
00:50:50.260is at the gate and the whole town is having a picnic and don't want to be interrupted and none
00:50:56.120of them can see the flames yeah that's excellent that's excellent you know what i mean and so
00:51:00.560what are you doing you're ringing bells you're blowing horns you're shouting sit down peace
00:51:07.720peace when there is no peace yeah right and a few years from now when they break through the walls
00:51:12.320and god forbid maybe not but but if things continue and they break through the walls
00:51:17.580And all of a sudden the evangelical church can see them, you know, well, that's already happened. I think, yeah, you're right. That's already happening. I mean, we have, there's a seminary that has not made it public yet. That's going to be trying to it's in North Carolina. I'll say that much.
00:51:36.220And they're going to try to sue the federal government, essentially, because of the directives coming down from the Biden administration on gender rules and that kind of thing, that they just they can't have their statement of faith and abide by those rules, especially when it comes to dorms and those kinds of things.
00:51:56.040i know publicly now there's um there i can't remember the name of it there's a bible college
00:52:01.760i was just looking at it ozark bible college or bible college of the ozark something like that
00:52:06.820i think but they they were also challenging it but in both cases they did not know of any other
00:52:12.620bible schools or seminaries or christian institutions willing to challenge it with
00:52:18.720them and so we have a situation where um the the christians for some reason think that if they0.89
00:52:28.240whistle past the graveyard it's all going to be okay and we'll make it through and uh there's
00:52:33.200light at the end of the tunnel and that's just not the case you're going to have to fight these0.62
00:52:37.340things and uh being woke on blm is not going to save you when the the gender police come to your1.00
00:52:45.200door, right? One of the things I think, and we're seeing this with COVID as well, and we're seeing
00:52:52.780this in a whole bunch of categories, actually, if you think about it, is this kind of blind trust
00:52:57.820of authority. No matter how many times egalitarians who hate hierarchy say they want to rip down
00:53:04.560hierarchy and they hate hierarchy, hierarchy is inescapable. And even if it's unspoken, there
00:53:09.680will always be a pecking order. There will always be a hierarchy of some kind. So right now we see
00:53:14.340with this kind of uh the tyranny of the lab coats you have a lab coat and the government's
00:53:19.400authorization then you're you're basically you have authority that is approaching divinity you're
00:53:25.580infallible you have pure is the driven snow goodness i mean you have all and you're unelected
00:53:32.140you're yeah dr fauci you're talking about an unelected official who's made it through what
00:53:36.060five i think five presidencies and you're talking about like a 40-year reign without ever having
00:53:43.420been elected i mean that's that's way more power than the president you see that this my point is
00:53:48.820you see the same thing though in the church you see that we we can say all day like we believe in
00:53:53.700the autonomy of the local church if we're baptists we believe um if you're presbyterian you believe
00:53:58.460in the presbytery but in in either case there's something else going on and i've seen this
00:54:03.680almost across the board there's there's a model that's not being talked about because it's not
00:54:09.900really defined, but there's kind of like this celebrity pastor kind of technical. I don't know
00:54:15.840what you even how to even describe it, but there's people in positions of authority and it's, it's
00:54:22.200very disrespectful in many people's minds to say anything bad about, you know, JD Greer or David
00:54:27.800Platt or any of these guys, but they're not my pastor. They're not, you know, what, what authority
00:54:33.900do they actually have? Well, all, all they are is they have a local church and they're a pastor
00:54:39.520there. And so there's no reason that they can't be challenged, but there's an unspoken kind of
00:54:45.620like, well, they're the experts because clearly why, because they have a good social media presence
00:54:50.080because that's what I'm saying. That's what I was saying earlier about the gatekeepers. I think
00:54:54.280there have been gatekeepers for a while now. And I don't know how exactly what you're saying. I,
00:54:58.500I don't have a whole lot of answers because I don't, I also don't know how, how they got elected,
00:55:02.780how they got, how this oligarchy within evangelicalism was formed. But what you're
00:55:08.100saying is it's real it exists right it's kind of you know like that touch not the lord's anointed
00:55:12.720like what we would you know what the what the prosperity guys would say you know now i mean
00:55:17.200obviously it's a little bit different to be fair but you know but um but it's it's this anointed
00:55:21.900oligarchy that can't they cannot be challenged um and if and if it is then immediately um the
00:55:28.060scrutiny is on the challenger um and and their and their tone and their character and you know0.98
00:55:33.660you weren't gentle you were harsh and those kinds of things and and um and a blind eye is turned to
00:55:39.340like but what if what he said is true should i actually investigate this no that you know and
00:55:44.100and so that's certainly a thing and i think one of the things that makes me hopeful is that i think
00:55:50.160that that's being broken up i in the sense that i think that all of a sudden um people just a lot
00:55:57.860of christians i think are waking up because of what's happening in our nation this last year and
00:56:01.420a half has been horrible and amazing at the same time in God's mercy, because that's what
00:56:08.900discipline is. Discipline is not pleasant for the time, but it is amazing because of what it
00:56:15.240produces. And I think the Lord has been disciplining his church and judging the nation.
00:56:21.280And so in that, there's already been a lot of blessings. And I think one of them is that
00:56:27.340that Americans in general and Christians in particular are all of a sudden questioning
00:56:32.200authority, um, in, in a good way, in a good way. And so I think that, um, all of a sudden people
00:56:38.940are willing to, to actually, well, just, just, and I agree with what you said, but, um,
00:56:45.380I would want to phrase it probably this way. It's not, it's, it's not so much that they're
00:56:49.160questioning authority itself. And I know you're not saying that, uh, they want, we want authority,
00:56:55.200We want but we want proper authority. We don't want this fake artificial hierarchy that it has been set up by people that have an interest in it.
00:57:08.220But they're not they don't actually represent or help the people that they're supposed to represent and help.
00:57:13.380And there's kind of like people are waking up and like, wait a minute, I don't have to listen to him. Right.
00:57:18.840If you're in the Southern Baptist Convention. Right. Ed Litton is the president. Right. He's a pastor of a church.
00:57:23.240well look uh doug wilson's a pastor of the church james white's a pastor of the church
00:57:28.140uh jd hall is a pastor of a church they're all pastors of churches but there's sort of a a sense
00:57:35.140in which people will treat um or it's popular it's approved by the gatekeepers to treat certain
00:57:42.160pastors with disdain and you can say all manner of disrespectful things against them online or
00:57:47.320wherever and that's fine there's nothing wrong with it because they're the divisive ones they've
00:57:52.620convince themselves that that's their justification. But don't touch someone, like you said, don't
00:57:57.740touch the Lord's anointed. Don't talk about Ed Litton. Don't talk about the guys who are in
00:58:01.780favor of the revolution. That's an artificial hierarchy. There's no reason they should receive
00:58:08.020preference or favorability just because of their political position or what they believe about
00:58:14.100politics. John, real quick address, because I've heard you on this before and it's fantastic.
00:58:18.780so for a moment there you said they're the divisive ones what does paul the apostle paul
00:58:25.220what does he say about which party is responsible morally responsible for division
00:58:30.480do you know what i'm hinting at yeah yeah but like my point is that my point is somebody can
00:58:37.960come into the church and introduce different doctrines and they can do it kindly they usually
00:58:44.400do that's that's usually why they're successful is they do it kindly with a smooth tone and they0.79
00:58:49.640lend you know they lead uh weak-willed women astray and is what the scripture and then someone
00:58:55.980opposes them and usually the one who opposes them with with fidelity and faithfulness is is the one
00:59:02.300who uses strong language but the apostle paul is very clear that the one who is opposing with
00:59:08.000strong language is not the the divisive party the the party that's that's morally culpable for
00:59:13.900division is the party it doesn't matter their tone's irrelevant it's the party that introduced
00:59:19.880the false teaching that's the divisive party right you think of even what first corinthians
00:59:26.180uh i think so i can't remember the text yeah yeah well early on in first corinthians i i want to say
00:59:33.120like in the first like four chapters chapter two or three um it's it's the portion where they're
00:59:39.080talking about where paul's addressing you you've tolerated a sin that the gentiles won't even0.87
00:59:44.220tolerate and they're like you know that's that's like our badge of honor that's like look how0.99
00:59:51.080great we are yeah five thank you yeah um they uh they they were wearing this as like a badge of
00:59:58.760honor like this is something that they're that's so it's great about them they're not going to
01:00:03.260confront this and paul's like uh hold on like you're tolerating this way too much and you need
01:00:09.280to be confronting these kinds of things there is a place for that we're supposed to admonish the
01:00:13.820unruly um encourage the faint-hearted help the weak so we got to like do some triage we got to0.99
01:00:19.680figure out okay who's unruly who's faint-hearted who's weak but um if you were a jerk right if you0.93
01:00:24.780went up to someone who was weak and you started admonishing them um that wouldn't be appropriate0.96
01:00:30.440and that there would be some maybe in that scenario you could say hey you're being too harsh but if
01:00:36.240you're yes someone who's unruly being harsh that's exactly what you're called to do and
01:00:43.160paul used very strong language at times he called he basically said in galatians like i wish these0.93
01:00:47.900judaizers they they would get a a real circumcision they go all the way right all the way um so0.85
01:00:54.380So I mean, that's themselves. Yeah. Yeah. I see. I don't even want to say it because I'm like, you know, I want to say because this is the Bible. But yeah, but I feel that's right. But you're right. No, you're right. I think. So that's a huge thing. So one, so we can say, because I think this is helpful. I hope our listeners will be blessed by this. But how do we define the sin of harshness biblically? So I think what we're getting at together, we're kind of doing it tandem. But one is your content.
01:01:22.380First and foremost, before how you say something comes into play, it's what you say, the substance, not tone, substance.
01:12:31.540And, and, and I, so, so all that being said, then, okay, you know, how do I obey Jesus? And what do I obey? Well, love, love God and love your neighbor. And then, well, how, how, what does it mean to love my neighbor? You know, and because a lot of people think what it means to love your neighbor is to put mask on your kids and, and everybody get the jab and, you know, and, and we ruined the entire nation and our economy and livelihoods and suicide has gone up and chronic depression, all this kind of stuff in the name of loving our, our, our neighbor.
01:15:19.020But, you know, Trump, I'm not saying he did it right.
01:15:23.300I'm not saying I would defend him or endorse him, you know, as an elder in a church or anything like that.
01:15:30.080But I think just people looked at Trump and they saw his Twitter account, right, and all these kinds of – and it's just – and they just blasted him and blasted him and blasted him.
01:15:40.000And I think that that's what's in people's minds of like what you were saying, John, about being a man and the old Westerns and that kind of image.
01:15:48.420I really think that there's just anyone who attempts.
01:15:51.580What I'm trying to say is Trump, I think, at least tried to be a man.
01:15:54.620And I think in a lot of ways in terms of his policies, he succeeded.
01:15:57.620In his rhetoric, I think a lot of times he went too far.
01:16:38.060But that's part of what being a man truly is. You have responsibilities outside yourself and you fit into a hierarchy, whether if you're a husband, you have responsibilities over your children and over your wife to protect them, to love them, to nurture them, to not in a way that a wife would nurture, but in providing, in encouraging.
01:17:01.880if you're a leader in a church then you know the same what would apply to the church if you're a
01:17:07.860leader in government uh the same that would apply to your constituents but even if you're just
01:17:13.300someone in a community uh you have we're not born blank slates without any attachments we have
01:17:19.480attachments and obligations as we just grow up um in in a community of people and men take that
01:17:27.600seriously. Real men, they want to do their best for that. And I think in some ways, a knowledge of
01:17:36.780the divine, of knowing that you're going to be judged for this, probably helps foster some of
01:17:43.160that. But, you know, just having good role models and examples, Paul even said, you know, follow,
01:17:50.520basically, follow me as I follow Christ. And so it's good to have some good role models. And today,
01:17:56.960that we don't have a lot of that so there's there aren't men being held up as positive examples of
01:18:02.220this only negative examples if anyone ever tries to be a man they're made fun of all the sitcoms
01:18:08.760make fun of them so um so what we do need and i and i'm starting to see this a little bit at least
01:18:16.100in some quarters of christianity is uh good examples and there's plenty of them out there
01:18:21.480but uh christian manhood illustrated by people who um do have uh do take their responsibilities
01:18:30.660seriously uh and and can exude uh that kind of um whatever that thing is that people want to follow
01:18:39.620you know yeah that quality right and so um i i am starting to see that uh and i there's a lot
01:18:47.280of young men right now um i think the jordan peterson kind of phenomenon showed this a lot
01:18:52.420more but there are some smaller figures now in christianity i think that are starting to kind of
01:18:58.580have the same effect on a mini scale but someone who is willing to buck the system because they
01:19:04.100loved others because they cared about truth that's infectious that's young men without fathers
01:19:10.160who have come from broken households who have moved you know three times and you know don't
01:19:15.580have a sense of place. They're looking for that stability somewhere. And this is the golden
01:19:19.880opportunity for Christians who, I mean, look, we got the man's man of all time, Jesus Christ. I
01:19:27.480mean, look, that guy went to the cross and was punished in a ways and had more pain inflicted
01:19:35.420on him than anyone else ever in human history and emotional and physical. And yet he endured it for
01:19:43.460the joy set before him and to please his father and to redeem a people,
01:19:48.420he accomplished something. And, and, and that's what men wanted.
01:21:19.220That's what hung him on the cross, right? He got nailed to the cross because of his speech
01:21:26.300and because he was calling out sin. He was calling out the cultural norms, all these
01:21:33.660kinds of things that um well he was following the pharisees you know that they're making their1.00
01:21:39.380proselytes twice as much a son of hell as they are and you'd be better if a millstone was hung0.98
01:21:44.300around your neck and i mean he said some things that go way past a lot of the things trump said0.98
01:21:51.480as far as harshness um and and yeah i mean he made bitter enemies because of it but you see that i
01:21:58.660mean this principle that god resists the proud gives grace to the humble for those who were
01:22:02.460sinful, but humble and repentant. I mean, he was gentle. I mean, he said, my burden is light.
01:22:09.940My yoke is easy. So, you know, in Jesus, we have this figure that wants to defend the weak
01:22:16.520and then wants to take on the bad guys, really expose them for who they are. And throughout,
01:22:25.920in our context but western history is filled with these examples we see this template repeated over
01:22:33.140and over imperfectly uh in people like george washington and um like i'd reference those old
01:22:39.100cowboy movies and stuff that's that's kind of like they're they're trying to reach for something
01:22:43.420they're trying to copy something a template that's already been laid down and that template is what's
01:22:48.040been destroyed and that that's that's a forbidden template you're not supposed to be like that if
01:22:53.820you're a man. And I think here's the takeaway in my mind. This is like the big lesson here
01:22:57.860to wrap sort of like everything we're talking about up. But if you are a leader in a church
01:23:02.640or no matter how big your platform is, if you want to let the bad guys get away with what
01:23:09.960they're getting away with, maybe you'll even help them a little. You know, you give them a little
01:23:13.000bit of a boost by sort of strapping Christianity to their agenda or something. You'll have an easy0.61
01:23:21.920life possibly i mean you take that gamble a little bit they could turn on you but you have a better
01:23:26.540chance of having an easy life and people won't have a problem with you as much and you'll be
01:23:31.160able to get through life maybe you'll have a little more material prosperity you'll be thought
01:23:36.620of a little better but in the end you won't actually be respected not real respect you won't
01:23:44.400have you know little boys aren't going to be growing up with stars in their eyes looking at0.98
01:23:49.100you because you saved the day and are a war hero or something like that there you're a coward that's0.99
01:23:54.580what you are and you have an easy life but you're a coward and you're going to be servicing a church1.00
01:23:59.520for other cowards who also are interested in the same thing they want their ears tickled but if you0.99
01:24:04.820are willing to take a stand to call out the names of people who are wrecking men's souls um and and0.55
01:24:11.480then physically even perhaps damaging people and communities um it's not going to be easy for you
01:24:17.500But you can put your head on your pillow at night. You can have the pleasure of the Lord. You can actually know a joy that's even deeper. And you'll have actual respect because you're worthy of it. I don't want to say anyone's worthy of anything, but you've actually earned it to some extent.
01:25:02.240And I think forgiveness falls underneath the love banner.
01:25:04.980and and respect i think falls underneath the trust banner and the bible agreed yep by the
01:25:10.700bible's mere mere commandment merely by the bible's commandment for us to be discerning
01:25:15.820that right there by way of implication tells us that the christian worldview says that trust
01:25:20.920is not assumed right if trust is assumed then there's no basis of discernment and so
01:25:26.260so trust therefore must be earned over time by action and word and and faithfulness and those
01:25:32.760kinds of things and so absolutely like we we earn trust and uh and and by proxy we earn respect and
01:25:40.340yeah man i like michael scott on the office i want people to be afraid of how much they
01:25:47.020they love me i want i want people to respect i don't want to just be loved or liked and i think
01:25:54.000that's what it's not even true love what guys are settling for right now it's not even the love of
01:25:58.680they're parishioners, they're settling for just their approval. It's not love. It's just being
01:26:04.800liked. And I don't want to be liked. I want to be loved and I want to be respected more than even
01:26:09.780being loved. I want to be respected because I'm a man. Respect matters more to me than even love.
01:26:16.500And just, I think the way that God's designed men. And so everything you're saying is great.
01:26:21.300Let's go ahead and wrap up. So we named a lot of guys. We named Matt Chandler. You talked about
01:26:26.040tim tim keller and we talked about eric mason and russell moore and we named a lot of guys
01:26:31.620let's let's end the episode with you just giving me name and reason as briefly as you can who are
01:26:38.600the two guys in evangelicalism that you're the most concerned about two guys name them yeah if
01:26:45.760you could just maybe give me two two guys okay yeah that's hard because i feel like every week
01:26:51.820it's like a new guy that i'm like okay that's that's that's a guy who's kind of you can give
01:26:55.940me 17 guys if you want but yeah so um yeah i just actually went back um and listened to
01:27:03.260the 2018 lecture at t4g by david platt because i i hadn't really focused on him a lot but with
01:27:11.280the current issues at mclean i wanted to just kind of review uh some of his stuff and i would say
01:27:17.800yeah he he's definitely i mean he basically links um he uh the easiest way for me to put this is
01:27:25.800in that particular speech and this has gotten worse in other things he said but he um accuses
01:27:32.300people he accuses the church he accuses everyone in the room uh at the conference of sin and grave
01:27:38.920sin i mean they need to repent they're in danger of the judgment of god because there's disparities
01:27:45.400between black and white and they don't do it. They don't do enough about it. That is not just0.94
01:27:52.040a different take on sin or a different like, you know, category. I'm going to categorize this as
01:27:58.240sin when it's not. That's like a different concept of sin. You can passively be guilty of things that
01:28:05.580previous generations might have done or things that you really are not even tangentially related
01:28:12.780to the things that are outside your purview you may not be in sin at all but you you are because
01:28:19.100of the world that in the environment that you inhabit and this is pure marxism pure social
01:28:25.280justice stuff um but it it it actually tampers with an understanding of sin itself when you do
01:28:32.960that and um when you when you tamper with sin and what sin actually is you you start tampering with
01:28:39.820the gospel. So, um, what, what, what is the good news actually? Uh, you know, what, um,
01:28:47.400you're, you're going to constantly be guilty. There's no way to really repent of it. There's
01:28:52.600no way to get out of it. You're going to be on the hamster wheel forever. There's really no
01:28:56.380flight at the end of the tunnel of forgiveness in that paradigm. So that's David Platt. I'll try to
01:29:01.680be quicker with you okay so um yeah so so like tim keller right um he constantly um what he does
01:29:11.260often is he'll make justice this obligation that um like if you don't give this is a quote from him
01:29:23.100like in 2010 he said if you don't um and i'm kind of summarizing it a little but he is in uh i think
01:29:28.860it was in the Christianity Today. It's our obligation to give the poor as much as we can
01:29:35.440possibly give them. And it's all based on need. It's if because someone's poor, we have an
01:29:41.040obligation to give them as much as we can possibly give away. Now, that may sound really good. But
01:29:46.540if you start to apply that, if you call that justice and say that's what justice is, and you
01:29:50.720conflate charity with justice, which is what he's doing, then you get into this weird position where,
01:29:56.280Okay. Justice is also a concept that, you know, apply that to the gospel. Everyone needs forgiveness. God doesn't forgive everyone. So is God now unjust? So it gives you into these weird spots. And so Tim Keller is another guy I think of as like a big threat.
01:30:12.840I'll give you just two more because I know we've got to wrap up, but these are Southern Baptist
01:30:17.820guys, and they're smaller names, Jarvis Williams and Walter Strickland, because I've done a lot
01:30:22.500of work on them. Jarvis Williams has integrated critical race theory into Christianity more than
01:30:28.000anyone else I know, and the main issue with that is he comes up with a Galatian-type heresy at the
01:30:33.460end of the day. The gospel is about racial reconciliation, and racial reconciliation means
01:30:38.000that you have to platform these voices you have to accept these narratives uh you have to teach
01:30:44.460history a certain way it's very specific it's like it's pretty long um but um he makes that
01:30:50.600part of the gospel that that's what that's what paul's talking about uh in ephesians and in
01:30:56.260galatians he's what he's what he's trying to do is um break down that dividing wall of ethnicity
01:31:02.480and, and bring Jews and Gentiles together. But he then reads into that critical race theory.
01:31:08.400So dangerous guy. That's not what that's talking about. And then, and Walter Strickland is pushing
01:31:15.340liberation theology. He's one of the easiest in my mind, because there's several times that he
01:31:21.020actually conflates the law with the gospel. And he literally adds works to the gospel.
01:31:26.860And we'll say things like, like there's one quote where he even says that the gospel is loving the
01:31:31.940lord uh with um loving the lord or loving loving god and loving your neighbor is the gospel it's
01:31:38.620like that's the law man that's what condemns you but then his his version of love is liberation
01:31:42.760theology so um those are four guys so i'll give you a bonus too but um guys i'm concerned about
01:31:48.480guys who in different ways uh are um promoting ideas that either if you think through them
01:31:57.080Logically, they destroy the gospel or they do directly actually tamper with the gospel.