The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - Can A Baptist Be A Christian Nationalist？ w William Wolfe

00:00:00 All right, listen, guys, I get it.

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00:00:40 Hi, this is Pastor Joel Webin with Right Response Ministries, and you are listening to another

00:00:44 episode of Theology Applied. In this particular episode, I was very privileged to welcome back

00:00:50 on the show for the second time now, William Wolfe. William Wolfe is, well, he worked for Trump.

00:00:58 That's all you got to need.

00:00:59 That's really all you need to know.

00:01:00 So everybody hates him.

00:01:01 I don't hate him.

00:01:02 I think he's great.

00:01:03 He is committed to the Lord Jesus Christ, and he's committed to not losing.

00:01:08 He and I are both Baptists, but we are both Baptists who believe that Baptists need to

00:01:13 get their act together, that we need to have a Christian nation, a distinctly Christian

00:01:18 nation.

00:01:19 We're both Baptists.

00:01:20 We're both Christian nationalists.

00:01:22 And in this episode, we want to speak to our Baptist brothers and say, hey, we need to 0.95

00:01:26 cut out this loser theology. And so I bring some theology to the table and so does William, 1.00

00:01:32 but he also brings some real good political theory. That's not my strong point, but he's been,

00:01:38 he worked in DC for 10 years and he worked in the Trump administration. He's worked at some

00:01:43 very high levels. He's knowledgeable and he's courageous. If you follow him on Twitter,

00:01:49 He is regularly gaining followers and also losing some here and there because he says

00:01:56 what he thinks and what he thinks is strongly biblically informed.

00:02:01 So William Wolfe is a good guy to tune into.

00:02:04 If he's talking, it's usually worth you and I listening.

00:02:08 So enjoy this episode with myself, Pastor Joel Webin, and William Wolfe.

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00:04:34 Applying God's Word to every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied.

00:04:43 Hi, this is Pastor Joel with Right Response Ministries, and this is Theology Applied.

00:04:48 In this particular episode, I'm privileged to have as a special guest returning now for the

00:04:52 second time, William Wolfe. William, would you introduce yourself to our listeners?

00:04:58 Joel, thanks for having me back. It's good to know that I'm welcome back with Right Response

00:05:04 Ministries. I had no doubt about that. Great to be with you last time. Wonderful to be with you

00:05:09 again. Joel, I'm so encouraged by the content that you're producing with Right Response Ministries.

00:05:14 I think it's absolutely appealing to Christians everywhere, to Christian men, and particularly to

00:05:20 Baptists who are looking for a better political perspective, a better biblical perspective on

00:05:26 the issues that are facing us. So thank you for your work, and it's a pleasure to be back here.

00:05:31 Like you said, my name is William Wolfe. I am a former senior official in the Trump administration.

00:05:37 I served in the State Department and the Department of Defense. I spent over a decade

00:05:42 working in politics in Washington, D.C., and now I'm in Louisville, Kentucky. I finished up my

00:05:48 Masters of Divinity. I'm working on a Masters of Theology at THM in Philosophy and Theological

00:05:54 Studies as I'm examining the role, scope, and authorization of civil government across the

00:06:00 covenants, as this is a hot topic right now because we want to know what it is that God has

00:06:05 said the government should and shouldn't do. So I'm trying to sort of pivot in some ways from being

00:06:13 in the purely political world to helping Christians in particular and conservatives and men think

00:06:22 better about life in this fallen world and how to, in many ways, honor God as we strive to build

00:06:28 good things until Christ returns for ourselves and for our families.

00:06:33 Amen. That's great. Let me just maybe, as you were talking, I thought maybe we should start

00:06:39 this way. Let me throw out my theology and then you throw out yours. I want to see where we differ

00:06:44 because I think, you know, we've talked offline a little bit and I got a feel for who you are and

00:06:50 I'm excited about what you're doing, but I think there are some differences between us. I think

00:06:53 there's more commonality, but some differences, but I just want to confirm my suspicions, all right?

00:06:59 So I kind of would take my doctrine and put it in seven different categories in terms of, you know,

00:07:04 obviously there's other, I'm a head covering guy. I just, uh, forwarded Dale, uh, Dale Partridge's

00:07:08 book, um, a glory or a cover for glory, uh, which is coming out really soon with relearn.org. And

00:07:14 so, you know, so there's plenty of things. I mentioned head coverings just to say, there's

00:07:17 plenty of other doctrines that I hold. And I'm sure you do as well that don't make my top seven

00:07:22 haven't head covering. Isn't the top seven, about 20% of the women in my church actually cover, 0.96

00:07:27 you know, it's not something that we enforce. I teach on it maybe once every five years from

00:07:33 the pulpit you know um that 20 primarily is my wife and my three daughters so anyway so all that

00:07:38 being said you know that i'm not saying that that's one of my big things i'm just saying that

00:07:41 you know some guys will listen to this and they'll say that's all you believe and i'll be like no i

00:07:45 believe a lot more but here are the big seven number one um reformed confessionalism um so

00:07:51 not a la carte theology not calvinistic baptist right i did a video a while back where i said

00:07:56 And what's the difference between Votie, Bauckham, and John MacArthur?

00:08:02 They got like a quarter million views because people are like,

00:08:05 I thought they were the same.

00:08:06 I didn't know there was a difference.

00:08:07 And so I explained, being 1689 confessionally reformed,

00:08:11 reformed Baptist versus Calvinistic Baptist,

00:08:13 leaky dispensational, pre-mill versus all-mill, covenantal.

00:08:17 So when I say reformed confessionalism,

00:08:20 I mean that I am actually holding to a historically reformed confession of faith,

00:08:24 namely the second London Baptist 1689.

00:08:26 that's number one number two would be uh covenant theology and for me right now it would be um

00:08:32 probably most in line with like uh pascal uh denault like a 1689 you know or a particular

00:08:38 covenant you know reform baptist covenantalism 1689 federalism is probably where i would

00:08:43 hang my hat for now so uh reform confessionalism covenant theology and then i would say uh biblical

00:08:50 patriarchy not just complementarian but biblical patriarchy presuppositionalism rather than

00:08:55 Thomism. I'm not a Thomist. I'm fine with divine simplicity to a certain point. I'm fine with

00:09:00 impassibility, all those kinds of things. The divine cannot suffer. That's great. But I am

00:09:07 presuppositional, much more in line with Van Til. And then next would be Kuyperian. When I say

00:09:12 Kuyperian, I mean it the same way most people do when they say Calvinist, right? Not necessarily

00:09:17 every jot and tittle of Calvin's Institutes for the Christian Religion, but rather, you know,

00:09:21 if someone says I'm a Calvinist, they mean the five points, soteriology, reformed soteriology.

00:09:26 Kuyperian, I mean every square inch. So multiple spheres, sphere sovereignty, but Christ is Lord

00:09:32 over all of it. Not one square inch of all of earth that Christ doesn't cry out, mine. So Christ

00:09:38 is king over everything. And we want Christian arts. We want Christian schools. We want Christian

00:09:42 medicine. We want Christian government, the whole nine yards. So Kuyperian in that sense,

00:09:47 not agreeing with everything that Kuyper ever said. And then next would be general equity.

00:09:51 theonomist um and then last would be eschatology post-millennial so reformed confessionalism

00:09:57 covenant theology uh reformed confessionalism covenant theology biblical patriarchy

00:10:04 presuppositional rather than thomas kyperian rather than uh two kingdom including classic

00:10:09 two kingdom uh general equity uh theonomy and then uh post-millennialism so in the in those

00:10:16 kinds of categories where, where are me and you, uh, different, you know, or, or where are we the

00:10:21 same? What, what's your, what is your theology? We're both Baptist. What else? Yeah, it's right.

00:10:26 So, I mean, we're definitely both Baptist and that's, you know, my theology is very Baptistic

00:10:32 and, you know, a lot of, uh, the way I view a lot of my theology is, is through the, um,

00:10:39 is through the church, right? And so one of the things that really is a big point for me is

00:10:48 congregationalism, independent local churches who then willingly cooperate with some sort of

00:10:57 association, you know, to pool the resources for the spread in advance of the gospel in order to

00:11:02 help keep their doctrine in check, their doctrine in practice, et cetera. But it's interesting,

00:11:07 joel and i'll say up front i'm still i'm still we would agree on that just so you know so i'm

00:11:11 congregational also elder-led congregationalism which is elder-led congregationalism yeah

00:11:15 you know and and that is that's a 1689 by the common suffrage right you know and so that that's

00:11:21 how uh elders are ordained deacons are ordained so yeah um yeah and then church discipline certainly

00:11:26 i was chatting with a brother i ran into a pastor and he's um he's a baptist and he is a

00:11:32 elder ruled congregational. And I just, I just immediately threw a rocking issue on that. I was

00:11:38 like, yeah, like you are going to get an incredibly difficult church discipline case.

00:11:42 And then your elders are going to be on the hook for that decision. And there's no backstop of the

00:11:47 congregation. You know, you guys are going to make the call and it's going to rest on you without

00:11:52 having congregational buy-in. And so, uh, and so I was like, you know, that's one of the reasons

00:11:56 I think congregational is so important. It's like everybody votes on the front door membership,

00:12:00 everybody votes on the back door either moving on in good standing to another local church

00:12:04 or excommunication anyway so you and i are definitely on board with that so i i hear

00:12:09 one one difference so front door deacons so receiving removing congregational vote for

00:12:14 deacons and elders holding to a plurality of both deacons and elders and a male deaconate

00:12:20 as well as a male um eldership so i think that's 1689 westminster both of them um you can't have

00:12:26 female deacons. So, um, so I'm on the front door and back door on, on both ordained officers of

00:12:31 the church, the diaconate and eldership, not on the front door with membership. I was, and I got

00:12:37 tired of having that many members meetings. It created a lot of drama, um, in the church. And

00:12:42 I understand you tag it on to, you know, your Sunday night, you know, Sunday evening prayer

00:12:46 meeting and all those kinds of things. And you do it once every six weeks. And you know, the whole

00:12:49 nine marks kind of thing. I, you know, I drank the Kool-Aid. I know you did too, you know, and,

00:12:53 and you swam in the Kool-Aid, you know, and I drank it, and they've got some really good stuff

00:12:57 on polity, and so we would disagree on some other things, but they've got some really good church

00:13:00 polity stuff. I get all of it. This is where I landed with that. If it's in and out on deacon,

00:13:06 in and out on elder, only out on member, and the in is if you don't like the members that the elders

00:13:12 are letting into membership, we're the elected officers, and you have a vote on the elders,

00:13:17 and so in that sense, the congregation still has authority over the membership of the church

00:13:20 because, not directly with a choice of each member,

00:13:23 but they do, they have firing power of the elders.

00:13:26 So they can say to the elders,

00:13:28 you're our elected officers 0.85

00:13:29 and you're letting in some unregenerate people

00:13:31 into the church.

00:13:32 Sorry, buddo, you're out.

00:13:34 We're going to elect better elders

00:13:35 who will let regenerate members in.

00:13:37 And so that's the way I ease my conscience on that.

00:13:38 And that's not specified in the 1689,

00:13:41 the in on the membership level.

00:13:43 The out certainly is with Matthew 18,

00:13:46 tell it to the church.

00:13:47 Everybody's like, tell it to the church.

00:13:48 You know, you just tell the church the decision.

00:13:50 No, no, no.

00:13:50 It's not tell the decision that the elders already made about kicking someone out to

00:13:54 the church.

00:13:54 It's tell the matter to the church.

00:13:56 And if he does not listen to the church, then the church hands him over.

00:14:00 And so I think we're 100% on, on, on the same page when it comes to polity.

00:14:05 What else?

00:14:06 Very close.

00:14:06 So, so I spent, I became, so I grew a Presbyterian.

00:14:10 Um, and then I became a Christian and became a Baptist at the same time and got baptized

00:14:16 as a believer.

00:14:17 And I, and I'm fully bought into that.

00:14:19 And then I was at a church for a decade that used the New Hampshire Confession, which is a broader confession than the 1689.

00:14:28 And so I have not I'd not have to wrestle with can I subscribe to the 1689 to be a part of this church because I definitely could subscribe to the New Hampshire.

00:14:37 No problem. And so I subscribed to that and then moved here to Louisville.

00:14:41 And the church that I'm at in Louisville has been a bit of a revitalization project.

00:14:45 and their church covenant confession is an interesting amalgamation and it's neither

00:14:51 new hampshire it's new hampshire ish it's not 1689 so i have to say i've not reached a point

00:14:57 in my life where i have had to subscribe for the sake of a local church body to 1689 but i

00:15:02 i believe i'm moving in that direction and i actually just got uh to the judicious and

00:15:08 impartial reader uh as i and i plan to work my way through that the exposition of the 1689

00:15:14 And so in that sense, I am I'm trending in that direction.

00:15:19 And I think that's ultimately where I'm going to land for the long term.

00:15:21 I just haven't I haven't had to in a specific sign my name to it sort of way land on that.

00:15:27 But there's so much good there. I mean, there's so much good in the Westminster, too.

00:15:32 And, you know, obviously we're not Presbyterian, but the 1689 draws from that in many ways.

00:15:36 And that's one of the issues that our Baptist brothers are having right now is they're failing to account in some of the ways that as Baptists develop.

00:15:44 their own ecclesiology and baptismal theology they were still very happy to work alongside of

00:15:49 their reformed brethren in terms of pulling language particularly on the relationship of

00:15:53 the church and the state and other things so right so you can say uh you can say i'm trending uh you

00:15:59 know reformed baptist and i'm sure that's where i'll be here shortly i am i'm on board with biblical

00:16:06 patriarchy so i've been i've been growing joel it's been very helpful for me people say you know

00:16:10 like well have you ever been wrong or do you change your mind i'm like yeah i've been getting

00:16:14 more conservative as the last few years have gone along and realize i had bought into sort of these

00:16:19 these um halfway houses and these are sort of like negotiated compromises with the world of

00:16:26 evangelicalism that that that sound nice but when you get in there and you dig around you realize

00:16:32 like this is kind of structurally unstable you know like is this house really going to stand

00:16:36 when the winds come blowing. And so I've moved from complementarianism to biblical patriarchy.

00:16:42 That is something I certainly would express. I still I still from time to time use the word

00:16:49 complementarianism. But I mean something different by it. That's a little bit of a Marxist move. I

00:16:54 probably shouldn't do that. And, you know, so I, I, I believe that complementarianism is too much

00:17:01 of a negotiated settlement with egalitarianism and feminism. So I would sign on to biblical

00:17:07 patriarchy. And as it stands right now, my eschatology is optimistic amillennial. So

00:17:13 I have not fully come over to the post mill side, but I'm still exploring that. Again,

00:17:20 I'm in a period of time in my life where I'm finally digging into a lot of this in a way I

00:17:25 hadn't for the last 10 years because i was digging into you know the constitution and you know the

00:17:31 federal register and legislative process and things like that and so yeah if we were talking

00:17:36 about that i kind of put you on the spot what's your theology like if you were like what's your

00:17:40 political theory with like i would look i would look real dumb right now like wait like you have 0.83

00:17:46 a theology you have a good theology we differ on a couple things and you're still you know dotting

00:17:50 some i's and crossing some t's but like like that what what you know in theology if we were to move

00:17:57 over to the political realm and what joel knows in that you know what i mean like i it's it's far

00:18:02 less you know so part of the you know you're a highly i can tell just a little bit that we've

00:18:07 interacted like highly intelligent decorated you know successful individual which is and with a

00:18:13 spine and with you know some testosterone and wants to actually do something and wants to win

00:18:18 and a lot of baptists right now that's what we talked about you know before we started recording

00:18:22 but it's it just seems like some of our brothers which i mean in in their defense i want to say

00:18:28 i don't want to say it carefully because i'm trying to be effeminate or because i'm trying

00:18:32 to you know some of our baptist brothers don't seem like they want to win and and to steal man

00:18:36 the argument instead of just you know like straw manning um everybody every christian believes we

00:18:42 win the question i've posed it like this several times the question is um are we going is christ

00:18:48 progressively, how does Christ win? It's not if he wins. He wins and the church by virtue of having

00:18:55 union with Christ also wins. So the church wins because Christ wins. The question is, how does

00:19:00 Christ win? Does Christ win progressively throughout human history through the church?

00:19:06 Does Christ win through the church or does Christ win despite a losing church? I think that's part

00:19:12 of the question. Does Christ win? Does the church, does he just sustain his bride? But she's on the

00:19:19 ropes and she goes, you know, all 12 rounds and she's saved by the bell and then Christ, you know,

00:19:24 tags her out and comes in and decimates the enemy. Or is the church actually, the church

00:19:30 militant on earth? Is it progressively expanding and increasing and growing and sharpening its

00:19:36 doctrine, right? It took us 400 years just to figure out the God man because it's not easy,

00:19:41 right the hypostatic union and all this guy so like yes we want to hold to old truths we don't

00:19:46 want to be heretics the creeds are good confessions are good um but our our doctrine is getting better

00:19:53 it is it is getting better it's sharpening and and so progressing in our doctrine progressing in

00:19:58 our numerically like our numbers all these kinds of things the church is getting better and i know

00:20:03 that right now the church is is in some sense like we're in a weak point but you know it's not a

00:20:09 steady, constant, you know, trajectory up without any dips along the way. There's some dips and I

00:20:14 would argue we're in a dip right now, but I mean, you look 2000, would you rather be born today or

00:20:18 2000 years ago? Would you rather be like, there's, I mean, just so, and that's Christ. That's, that's,

00:20:23 we're drinking Christendom. It's all, it's Christ blessings. He's the source. Every good and perfect

00:20:29 gift comes down from the father of lights, lifespans, global hunger, poverty, all these 0.98

00:20:34 things, it's like, this is Christianity. And the only reason, I know you agree, the only reason 0.87

00:20:39 classical liberalism and principled pluralism had the luxury of even the appearance of viability is

00:20:45 because they were living off the fumes of a prior Christ of them. And when that arose, when the

00:20:52 foundations are destroyed, what can the righteous do? And so you and I, we both, we get there in

00:20:58 different, you know, we get there in different ways. Like I read Stephen Wolf's book, you know,

00:21:02 And it's like, I like what he's going for.

00:21:05 I get there a different way, right?

00:21:06 I'm not a Thomas.

00:21:07 So as a presuppositional guy, I'm a big fan of telling people, whether they're Christian

00:21:11 or not, hey, you know, I can argue from nature and I can argue from, you know, reason.

00:21:15 I can argue from this and I can argue.

00:21:16 But God also wrote a book and I'm kind of fond of using the book, you know, like that's,

00:21:23 you know, that in a nutshell, that's the presuppositionalist versus, yeah, God wrote

00:21:25 a book.

00:21:26 I like the book.

00:21:27 I use the book and I don't think it's circular logic.

00:21:29 God bless Sproul, you know, but, and so anyways.

00:21:32 All that being said, like we get there different ways, but you and I, what I like about you

00:21:35 is you're actually trying to find solutions.

00:21:39 You're not just like the infallible Oracle I tweeted today, you know, like the infallible

00:21:44 Oracle who always knows the problem for the last 12 years, I told you this was coming,

00:21:50 you know, but you're like saying, okay, like I saw this coming.

00:21:53 You saw it for 12 years and praise God for his grace through you.

00:21:56 You've been a blessing.

00:21:57 I've seen the last five years.

00:21:59 So you got me beat.

00:22:01 But you know what I'm doing right now that's really unique?

00:22:03 You should try it.

00:22:04 Solutions, trying to find solutions, you know?

00:22:07 And so what are some of those?

00:22:09 What are some of the things you're working on right now? 0.82

00:22:10 What do Baptists need to do?

00:22:12 Yeah, well, I mean, I think the idea of winning is so important.

00:22:18 And knowing that Christ has won and that it's changed the world now, today.

00:22:23 You know, I heard this anecdote recently.

00:22:26 It's pretty funny.

00:22:26 kid comes to his dad and says, hey, dad, how does the world hang in space? And the dad's like,

00:22:33 it's on the back of a turtle. And the kid goes, well, what's underneath that turtle?

00:22:38 His dad's like, another turtle. And the kid's like, well, what's under that turtle? And he's

00:22:42 like, kid, it's turtles all the way down. And when you look at modernity, Joel, when you look at the

00:22:49 modern world, when you look at the way that the world has changed since the cross and the

00:22:55 resurrection. It is Christendom all the way down. It is the grace of Christ in the gospel that is

00:23:05 spreading across the globe in a way that we didn't see. I mean, we have an Old New Testament,

00:23:10 they're cohesive, but what has happened post the cross has changed the world. It has brought a

00:23:17 revolution of understanding, of living, of knowing the creator God and exploring his creation

00:23:24 and advancements i mean and secularists and atheists can see this and i just want to ask

00:23:32 my baptist brothers in the 21st century why can't you like why can't you see what the atheists see

00:23:39 when they write when tom holland i'm not actually sure if he's still considering himself an atheist

00:23:43 but when he writes dominion and he can see that christianity changed the world you know that it

00:23:50 brought about freedom and prosperity and so so there are those are physical effects right that's

00:23:55 not the point of the gospel but that's an effect of the gospel and and to reduce the gospel to

00:24:01 um you know the gospel is a message it's a message of a king who has conquered repent bend the knee

00:24:08 bow and accept the forgiveness of sins and put your hope and faith and trust in jesus christ

00:24:13 you know who who was and is and is to come and now go live in this world that your creator god

00:24:20 has given you to shape and to take dominion over and to fulfill the mandates that have been renewed

00:24:25 in christ and so actually on stephen wolf that's something to be interested in getting your take

00:24:30 on this and this is where we start to at least i start to come against other theologians like

00:24:35 van drunen and others like i think stephen's very good on the continuation of the dominion mandate

00:24:40 and the fact that grace does not vitiate nature but it helps restore it and so even now here in

00:24:46 the 21st century i want to embrace the grace of the gospel and the forgiveness of sins and to know

00:24:52 the spiritual blessings in christ but then i also want to go out into nature and work you know with

00:24:57 my family with my community with my church with my country you know to to bring about what god

00:25:03 has promised us for as long as i have breath you know so i think that's where our baptist brethren

00:25:09 have have sunk into anabaptist escapism or spiritual pietism and even if they're interested

00:25:17 in trying to do good things in the culture really they've reduced all of the cultural mandate to

00:25:23 evangelism and evangelism is awesome but it is not the cultural or dominion mandate yep well said

00:25:30 um on the stephen wolf thing you know and for the record i've actually uh recently have some

00:25:36 friends of mine um that that uh they were convinced that you and steven wolf were brothers

00:25:42 that's not true right you guys are not brothers i'm not here to i'm not here to confirm or deny

00:25:50 such no come on come on you're not brothers you look nothing alike brothers in christ

00:25:54 right brothers in christ but i mean there's some people who legitimately thought yeah the wolf

00:25:58 brothers you know and like uh like like you guys were like this team troll you know like like that

00:26:05 you planned it. Like one's a Presbyterian, one's a Baptist. And this is just all just a big joke

00:26:09 or something. I was like, no, man, this is like, these guys are not related. They're serious. This

00:26:14 is legit. Um, yeah. So, but, but with Wolf on the, you know, um, you know, opposing Van Drude

00:26:20 and Michael Horton, you know, um, the gold standard of radical two kingdom that comes out

00:26:24 of Westminster Escondido, which I was in San Diego. So I'm, you know, was, was a part of that,

00:26:29 you know and and um or around that i should say and and have some guys who you know that i would

00:26:35 still be friends with we would just we but we would strongly strongly disagree um on a lot and

00:26:42 yeah van juden essentially one of the things that he argued is that basically nothing will actually

00:26:48 nothing of the physical world whatsoever will actually transfer over into the life to come

00:26:54 into the new heavens um except for our physical body which you know you kind of have to include

00:26:59 that one without being a heretic, you know, not denying, you know, the physical resurrection.

00:27:03 But that's, you know, that that's it. And, and, you know, and it gets into, you know, like Peter's

00:27:09 epistles and, you know, like, or even like Amazing Grace, right? Like, so I use the Cantus Christi

00:27:14 in our church, you know, that comes out of Christchurch in Moscow, their hymnal slash

00:27:19 Psalter. And, and it's back to like a different rendering of Amazing Grace. One of the stanzas,

00:27:25 you know the earth will soon dissolve like snow the sun forbear to shine and uh and it changes

00:27:31 that you know and saying like okay like we we think that this age um is going to be rolled up

00:27:36 like a garment it's good but that um that it's not going to be a new earth in the sense of another

00:27:41 earth but it's actually going to be this earth made new the the new heavens coming to this new

00:27:46 earth is glorified alps glorified himalayas glorified mississippi delta whatever that's

00:27:51 going to be, and glorified, resurrected, you know, physical bodies. I'm not going to get another

00:27:55 body. It's going to be this body. And you don't have to hold that view to be within the realm of

00:27:59 orthodoxy. But it does make a difference in the way that you view the world, the way that you

00:28:04 view the Christian life, and the way that you live. And so anyways, all that being said, Stephen

00:28:08 Wolfe is not a radical, you know, two kingdom guy. He's very much, I think, in keeping with

00:28:14 most of the reformers, not necessarily all, but most of the reformers. Calvin, I'm pretty convinced

00:28:19 that Stephen Wolf is, is channeling, I think a lot of inner Calvin. And so, and yet people lost

00:28:27 their minds and have a huge, they think that he's like, that he's arguably not even Orthodox. And

00:28:32 you read his book and it's like, and it's a beast to get through. It's 400 pages. And I had to really

00:28:37 power through at certain points. I felt like the Good Burger, you know, the old Nickelodeon movie

00:28:44 where like uh it's keenan and kell and like one of them's like reading and he's like i know some

00:28:49 of these words you know it's kind of how i felt yeah but uh but yeah man it's i like steven gets

00:28:55 there one way somebody gets there another way but it's it's fun it's just funny to me that um

00:29:00 that i'm noticing it's like the the big presbyterian baptist divide and yet ironically

00:29:06 um some of these baptists and then some of these westminster escondido radical you know radical 2k

00:29:13 guys actually like they almost sound like echoes of one another they're like on the on the same page

00:29:19 very very similar yeah well let me talk about that for a second well particularly in our baptist 1.00

00:29:24 world this is part of what i want to do again it's like um i want to help purge baptists from 0.63

00:29:29 adopting loser theology right like and and this is where it's like you have to think about people's

00:29:35 roles and functions right like the vast majority of faithful baptist pastors they look they can

00:29:41 focus on preaching the gospel week in and week out, shepherding their flock. And if they aren't

00:29:47 really interested in political theory, that's fine, but they still need to help their people

00:29:51 live their lives. We go to church, and even if you have, by God's grace, a glorious full Lord's

00:29:57 day, not just a Lord's morning, where you do Sunday school, regular service, and an evening

00:30:03 service, a Wednesday night Bible study, even that, overall, comparatively, that's a drop in the

00:30:08 bucket of of the rest of our weeks that of this world that god has given us to live in and to

00:30:14 pursue and i would argue to to fill with his image bearers and to take dominion of so you need to

00:30:19 quit people but van drunen and his thought and the radical two kingdom thought has been translated

00:30:24 into baptist life by jonathan lehman and and also frankly by andrew walker um with lehman in his

00:30:31 book political church and then andrew walker and liberty for all they they very much adopt a van

00:30:37 Drunin framework of sort of reducing everything down to this mere conception of the continuation

00:30:43 of the Noahic covenant, but sort of vitiates the dominion mandate. And it really, it sort of

00:30:50 parses out, you know, the spiritual and the physical world in a way that I don't think that

00:30:56 is keeping with the reformed tradition or is actually biblical. So I think we have work to do

00:31:01 in uh baptist circles in particular to get van drunen out because some of our quote unquote

00:31:07 like some of our leading baptist public theologians and political commentators you know think of

00:31:13 russell moore as well who you know who was very influential in baptist circles kind of have have

00:31:20 laundered radical to kingdom theology into baptist circles which is why and i would make this

00:31:27 counterpoint we can get into it with i see some of our our good brothers in the g3 world who think

00:31:34 christian nationalism is sort of political presbyterianism and i i just i do not think

00:31:41 that that is that an accurate way to describe what we're talking about uh because we're we're not and

00:31:47 i think again they're getting that because they are adopting sort of some political this is a

00:31:52 funny move here, right? Track with me. They're adopting some bad Presbyterian political theology

00:31:57 that then makes them think that a better, more robust political theology is sort of like

00:32:03 Presbyterian theology applied to politics. And it's not that. So I don't know if you have anything

00:32:10 you want to say on that, but we've got work to do in Baptist circles. And that's where I think

00:32:14 you're leading the way. And I hope to contribute significantly to a robust Baptist political

00:32:20 theology and public theology that does not consign us to the role of sideline losers and i mean when

00:32:28 you look at what russell moore has said that man thinks that everybody but christians should have

00:32:33 power and they talk as if the people you should trust the least with power in this country are

00:32:41 those who have been born again and indwelt with the holy spirit and actually joel the people have

00:32:47 born again and indwelt with the holy spirit are the people who i want helping lead that's right

00:32:52 this country so i mean that was a lot of thoughts there but you know no that's super trusted with

00:32:56 power and if we can't we have bad theology right amen um yeah it's you know rush duny said it's

00:33:04 not weather but which and that little quip um will go a long way with a lot of you know so it's like

00:33:11 well chrysidum was bad you know and like uh the spanish crusades were better right exactly so it's 0.79

00:33:19 like the spanish crusades or you know or they were um they were picking on baptists you know

00:33:23 and and you know baptists were you know and to be fair it was more than just picking on baptists 0.71

00:33:27 it was like picking out their tongue and cutting off their fingers and putting them in prison and

00:33:31 like yeah there were problems there were problems but 60 million dead babies is kind of a problem 0.99

00:33:36 you know what i mean and cutting off the penis of little boys is is kind of a problem you know 0.96

00:33:42 like i it's not whether but which right secularism has not been an upgrade right like and and and 0.99

00:33:49 here's the problem though is is ever since the enlightenment you know i would track a lot of

00:33:54 stuff back back to the enlightenment you know but like uh the victors get to write the history books

00:33:59 you know and and so as you know culture and society began to move away from from god and and

00:34:05 begin to you know be engulfed in materialism and then and they had to have a way to answer these

00:34:10 questions like one you know if you're if you're going to do away with theism you know one of the

00:34:14 things you have to account for is how does the world even exist you know so in comes darwin and

00:34:18 so you have like the you know the the the horsemen that kind of usher in the secular age you know

00:34:23 you've got on the the psychology side you've got freud and you've got darwin you know on the

00:34:28 materialistic side you know and then you've got uh freud darwin you've got marx you know when it

00:34:33 comes to economics and political theory and all these kinds of things which marks i mean his like

00:34:37 his daughter you know killed herself uh he wouldn't work a single day in his life when his

00:34:42 when his family was starving like he a man wouldn't bathe i keep the man the man went to baths 0.97

00:34:47 because he thought it was bourgeoisie to take a bath right he was a he was a horrible he was a 0.81

00:34:52 horrible man he said i have no higher aim um than to uh than to disprove god yeah you know and like 0.97

00:34:58 he hated god he said the only way to destroy the heavenly father is to destroy the earthly father 0.94

00:35:03 black lives matter picked up that you know and ran with it um which is you know it is always a 1.00

00:35:08 little bit funny that you know there's plenty of useful idiots you know like the three women you 1.00

00:35:12 know so-called founders of black lives matter there's always useful idiots useful black idiots 1.00

00:35:16 useful white idiots you all kinds of different colors of idiots be careful sociological descriptions 1.00

00:35:22 nobody has a monopoly no ethnicity has a monopoly on wisdom or idiocy i've come to find out 1.00

00:35:30 but the point is um but there are always people behind useful idiots it's not just like when it 0.99

00:35:36 comes to protesting that some of these things even tracking back to the civil rights movement 0.96

00:35:40 like we're gonna have to rewrite history on the 1960s we're gonna have to do some of that work

00:35:45 and and i know it's not fun and i know it's icky you know and like whoa there slow down um but i

00:35:51 know you read we talked about this but like i i read in uh early 2021 and i think you read it like

00:35:56 a year ago or so but age of entitlement was like that was that was a red pill for me you know that

00:36:01 book and think oh my goodness like did we get some of this wrong but all the way back to the

00:36:05 enlightenment my point is the victors get to write the history books and one of the things that they

00:36:08 did was um they get to title time periods the dark ages the enlightenment so what what's what's

00:36:15 enlightening um rebellion against god casting off the bonds bursting them apart right that's

00:36:22 enlightenment? That's liberation. That's freedom. What is oppression? What is primitive, Neanderthals,

00:36:31 dark ages, when people believed in God? Now, again, that's not to say there aren't abuses 0.95

00:36:38 in Christendom. You got the Roman Catholic Church involved in Christendom for Pete's sake,

00:36:43 so of course there's going to be some abuses, but my goodness, again, not whether, but which.

00:36:49 And I think that's the part that people keep forgetting.

00:36:51 They think that neutrality is a myth.

00:36:54 That's the whole problem.

00:36:55 It comes down, and I think that there's a lot of people, they were raised in this very

00:37:00 unique time period in 6,000 years of human history, because yes, I'm a young earth guy.

00:37:08 6,000 years of human history.

00:37:10 Think about this.

00:37:11 So Christ didn't even come until 2,000 years ago.

00:37:14 Christ, he's the seed.

00:37:15 I tell you the truth, unless a seed goes into the ground and dies, it remains alone.

00:37:19 but if it dies it bears much fruit he was buried in the tomb he died he rose again that's this

00:37:25 mustard seed and it's growing it's filling the earth a stone cut by and i know we would just

00:37:29 you know you're you're optimistic all mill i'm post mill but daniel two passages and isaiah

00:37:33 chapter two passages flocking to mount zion isaiah 65 passages um that the youth will die at a

00:37:40 hundred that's not a dispensational pre-mill uh literal thousand year millennium it can't be

00:37:45 because death, there is no death then. But the youth will die at 100. Meaning right now, we say

00:37:50 today, somebody dies at 65, and we say they were so young. Dude, if somebody lived to be 65 150

00:37:55 years ago, we'd say, whoa, he was ancient. But that's the thing, is Christendom continues to

00:38:01 grow. Lifespans increase to where if somebody dies at 100, one day we'd say, that guy's young.

00:38:06 And it says that no more death in infancy, that babies aren't being murdered, and they're not 0.54

00:38:13 dying and we see that already women died in childbirth babies i mean if you read the puritans 0.88

00:38:18 if their children made it to adulthood like like two out of ten kids that was a win that was like 0.90

00:38:24 that was pretty good you know statistics and so my point is like all these things are happening

00:38:28 um but but that's what we see is you know four thousand years in the old covenant um and then

00:38:35 you see two thousand years of christendom from christ he dies um but this is really and correct

00:38:40 to be if I'm wrong, but I feel like this is one of the first major points in history that you have

00:38:45 Christendom receding. Christendom receding. You had times without it. Sure. But, but have you had

00:38:52 times post it where you had it, but now it's receding that creates a real, nobody does theology

00:38:59 in a vacuum. We all in providentially and God's providence are placed in a particular time and

00:39:03 place. And, and right now for our lives. And I think me, some of the younger guys get it more

00:39:09 because we've been in this pot for 30 years, 35 years,

00:39:14 instead of other guys who have been in this pot for 65 years.

00:39:16 They're more shaped by it.

00:39:18 But even 65 years, if you pan out 6,000 years,

00:39:21 it's a microcosm and it's a very, very unique microcosm.

00:39:25 And what's unique about it?

00:39:26 It's one of the first times in human history

00:39:28 that you, not that you have no Christendom

00:39:30 because we had dark times before,

00:39:32 but that you have post-Christendom

00:39:33 where Christendom is receding

00:39:35 and something is taking its place.

00:39:37 And as those two ships of Christendom on its way out and secularism, you know, secular humanism on its way in, as those two ships kind of come and they pass each other, right, that Christendom is partially receded and secularism is partially, then you have the optic of neutrality.

00:39:54 and you might say that's not an optic. It's been going on for 50 years. Classical liberalism has

00:40:01 worked. For 130 years, classical liberalism. It's like, yeah, yeah, but pan out 6,000 years. 130

00:40:06 years is still these two massive ships. We're tracking back to King Alfred. That's 1,000 years

00:40:11 of Christendom. You could track back to Constantine. That's 1,500 years of Christendom.

00:40:15 So your 130 years of this experiment working is a drop in the bucket. What I'm talking about

00:40:21 is a 1500 year old ship moving out to sea and and this other ship that my gosh i hope it's not 1500

00:40:29 years long moving in and those two for 130 years give or take overlapping and giving the appearance

00:40:36 a thin veil of of there's this this principled pluralistic idea that actually what it doesn't

00:40:44 it doesn't it doesn't it doesn't and i think the guys who have only been in this overlapping moment

00:40:50 for 30 years can more easily see the lack of viability than the guys who have built careers

00:40:57 and ministries and whole worldviews and ways of the systems of thinking and political thought

00:41:04 for 60 years. And I'm sympathetic to those guys because that is hard. Like if I had been

00:41:10 operating and building and teaching lectures about this thing working for 60 years, I'd be

00:41:15 really convinced that it actually works but i don't think it does right one i think joel that

00:41:21 this is the inescapable starting point of christian nationalism and this is where i i wish that all of

00:41:28 our baptist brothers wherever they're located you know whatever their organizations whatever

00:41:33 their affiliations would ask themselves is there such a thing as a secular state

00:41:39 can can there ever be a truly secular state a neutral state a state that doesn't have any

00:41:48 metaphysical commitments to a to a religion to the christian religion uh and then what is it going to

00:41:56 look like for christians to operate inside of that and the answer is a resounding no and and so

00:42:02 you know what whether they say what we see things like you know even if we could baptize

00:42:07 baptized America would be a Christian nation 1.00

00:42:10 because there's non-Christians in it. 0.99

00:42:12 Like, okay, that's not really the point here, brother. 1.00

00:42:15 Real quick, that's so funny 0.99

00:42:17 because that's never stopped Baptists before.

00:42:19 We say, well, we believe in regenerate church membership.

00:42:22 Yeah, we do.

00:42:22 But we also understand that man looks at the outward appearance,

00:42:26 God alone sees the heart.

00:42:27 We don't have, why do we have church discipline?

00:42:30 Right. 1.00

00:42:30 If we only baptize regenerate people.

00:42:32 Um, we don't baptize upon, um, uh, definitive knowledge of regeneration.

00:42:37 We baptize upon what a profession can a nation profess God in its founding documents, in

00:42:45 its rhetoric, in its public, if, if we baptize professors, nations can profess.

00:42:52 Well, right.

00:42:52 And, and this is, there is, there's such a great categorical confusion in regards to

00:42:57 again, what is the, what is the role and authorization of the civil government of

00:43:02 the magistrate and the role and the authorization of the ecclesial government, the pastor,

00:43:08 the church body, whatever, what have you, a denomination.

00:43:12 And the fact that you would have a ruler, a leader, a governing body, the United States

00:43:18 Congress and our president recognize that, you know, the Lord is the one true God and

00:43:25 that it is critical that all of our laws are adopted with standards of biblical righteousness

00:43:31 and justice and fairness as applied to our current situation in the United States of

00:43:37 America, that can make us a Christian nation with literally hundreds, well, let's hope 0.90

00:43:44 not hundreds, with tens of millions of non-Christians within us. 0.96

00:43:47 And the fact that our government is doing what it should do in terms of recognizing 0.99

00:43:53 where its authority is derived from, what the only sustainable principles of justice

00:43:59 and morality are for the keeping of the peace, for the passing of good laws, for doing right,

00:44:05 for commending what is right, and for punishing what is wrong, that's not a salvific statement

00:44:11 about every single soul that is within their jurisdiction. It is a general statement about

00:44:16 the disposition of that government, of that ruler, of that collective magistrate. And if they do that,

00:44:23 they are christian and and yet at the same time that does not mean that in any way that they

00:44:29 should be sort of they shouldn't be in the church and church shouldn't be in the state and they

00:44:34 shouldn't be telling people that that they're christians that aren't the government has no

00:44:38 and the government has no business making a salvific pronunciation upon what's happening

00:44:43 within your heart and your soul nobody is arguing that nobody's arguing that in fact that is what

00:44:48 was wrong with with roman the holy roman empire that you know the catholicism was the pope is

00:44:55 over here saying you're actually you're going to hell because you don't you know because you're

00:44:59 not towing the line with my political program nobody is advocating for that today and yet then

00:45:04 we have also forgotten you talk about this too is that it is good and just and right for governments

00:45:10 to recognize that god is king and ruler christ is king and to have you know good and just laws

00:45:16 that teach the populace what morality is and points them to orients them to heavenly truth

00:45:23 without being the ones responsible for the living the delivering the packet of the gospel and saving

00:45:30 grace you know i would hope that if we lived in a just society a christian nation that you know

00:45:36 that all of a sudden you know close down all the strip clubs and you know close things on sundays

00:45:42 and band drag shows and you know that somebody would wonder like well wait a minute what is

00:45:47 right or wrong here well what's the right thing to do and where can i go get guidance on that from

00:45:53 and would find themselves in a church and that is not the government usurping the role of the

00:45:58 church or taking the keys of the kingdom in any way amen um even with like the sabbath like so

00:46:04 you said so many good things i want to comment on a couple but like um you said closing things

00:46:08 down on sunday uh yes and amen right there you know like in terms i think one of the things that

00:46:12 our baptist brothers are concerned about is wrongful binding of the conscience um and one

00:46:17 of my friends i just said the other day that i thought i thought it was so insightful and really

00:46:21 helpful that um the state right so first we're not talking we we 100 both of us agree that there

00:46:27 must be a separation in terms of spheres a separation of church and state we're not asking

00:46:32 right well okay yeah so that's where we would differ so i would say spheres so for me kingdoms

00:46:38 so you can say kingdom church and state luther had some of that idea and then you can go back

00:46:42 augustine city of god city of man and you know the classic two kingdom kind of calvin you know

00:46:46 picked up on some of that and it's you know it would be you know sacred and common so kingdoms

00:46:50 sacred and common you know or church and state uh whereas i would refer to those as spheres more

00:46:55 in the kyperian framework um and for me i i do believe in two kingdoms but i would be very much

00:47:00 align with uh joe boot in that regard i would say that the two kingdoms are light and dark

00:47:05 um so it's not common and sacred um that that it's it's it's all sacred um but but there is

00:47:12 a kingdom of light and dark and wherever you find so now moving to sphere so i i often say

00:47:17 let me let me make just go ahead and i think this is important though is part of the kingdom

00:47:21 distinction is also spiritual and natural right like spiritual natural conscience the internal

00:47:28 and external, where we would recognize that the government has a right to direct your external

00:47:35 actions, but they do not have the right or the ability. They don't even have the ability to do

00:47:41 it, to judge what's going on in your conscience and in your spirit. But that doesn't mean that

00:47:47 they don't have the right to enforce certain external actions upon you. Again, not a matter

00:47:53 of profession or not a matter of saying things you don't believe but so that's another important

00:47:59 distinction in the classical kingdom is spiritual natural yep yeah yeah yeah um and and i would have

00:48:06 some disagreements with that but uh but i i know what you're saying and i do agree in terms of the

00:48:11 um forcing in terms as it as it regards to the conscience um but i but i yeah so with with the

00:48:17 sabbath i'll make that point real quick but um the government can a christian government can

00:48:21 enforce a day of rest, but they are, not that they're not allowed to, they are incapable

00:48:26 because they're not Christ of enforcing a day of worship. That's the difference. So when we talk

00:48:32 about Sabbatarian laws, they can shut down institutions and say, you will get a fine.

00:48:37 There will be a penalty. You cannot be open on the Lord's day. There's six days to work. 0.79

00:48:40 So they can issue with their civil authority, an official day of rest, but only the Lord Jesus

00:48:47 Christ can make the heart of an individual man, make that a day of worship.

00:48:52 Amen.

00:48:53 Right?

00:48:53 So that's a wonderful way of saying it.

00:48:55 So we're not talking about, we're not saying that we're going to force conversions.

00:48:59 And we're not talking about a Protestant Pope.

00:49:02 I love Doug Wills.

00:49:03 Somebody said about Doug Wills.

00:49:04 Drink.

00:49:05 Yeah, yeah.

00:49:06 Well, I love like Doug.

00:49:07 You have a sparkling water.

00:49:08 I don't know.

00:49:10 John MacArthur approved.

00:49:12 Yeah, so Doug Wills, somebody said about him on Twitter.

00:49:16 I thought it was so funny because he doesn't comment very much, but he surfaced a little

00:49:19 bit with, uh, with Michael O'Fallon recently.

00:49:21 Cause Michael, you know, kept asking, you know, like, who's going to be this Protestant

00:49:24 magisteria, you know, this, uh, yeah, well, so Doug actually chimed in and he normally

00:49:30 doesn't, you know, but he like chimed in and he said the same guy who's in charge of the

00:49:34 free market.

00:49:37 And, uh, and Michael, that's because it's Doug Wilson.

00:49:41 and yeah and so and so michael didn't like that and uh somebody one of my followers commented on

00:49:48 and said um he said majestic isn't he it's like a great white shark it's elusive and secret but

00:49:53 every now and then it breaches you know like and you know and it was just so funny like um and then

00:49:58 michael you know kind of like went back and then dug again just like in two tweets just dismantled

00:50:03 the entire argument and say that like it's um that's the beauty of of sphere sovereignty um

00:50:09 that's the beauty of separation. So I just think it would be really helpful because I'm, you know,

00:50:13 I did a video, a live video on Monday and Josh Bice, God bless him. He, uh, he tuned in and he

00:50:19 got in the chat and, you know, and he was talking to me a little bit and I tried to address his

00:50:21 questions and I was being as charitable as possible and saying this and saying that.

00:50:25 And he's been a good sport, you know, like we've been picking on him. He's been picking on us,

00:50:29 you know, like, and we're a lot, like we're men, right? So like Scott's, you know, had a couple

00:50:32 tweets and I'm like, Oh, that's a dumb tweet, you know? And, um, and that's, that's not, that's not 0.88

00:50:38 harsh. You're allowed to say that. And Scott, in his defense, he also can take it because I don't

00:50:44 think he's effeminate. And I don't think Josh is effeminate. I think they're actually men and God

00:50:47 bless them. I'm grateful for them. But all that being said, Josh, you know, might listen to this

00:50:51 and I hope he does. And I want to listen to it, some of the stuff that they put out. But if he

00:50:56 does listen to this, one of the things that I'm sure he would be pleading for is could you define

00:51:00 some terms? Could you please get particular? So let me, can I just ask you some things and then

00:51:07 And then maybe you could ask, because not every Christian nationalist is equal.

00:51:12 We're not all the same, but we do have some specifics.

00:51:16 And I think that's where we're passing each other in the night, you know, with some of

00:51:19 the G3 guys or Michael O'Fallon, you know, or us.

00:51:23 So you're a Christian nationalist, yes or no?

00:51:26 Yes.

00:51:27 Yes.

00:51:28 Do you believe that we should have a state-run church or a church-run state?

00:51:34 No.

00:51:35 To either of those.

00:51:37 Right. So then who do you believe? Let me ask another question. Do you believe that at the federal level, should there be an official national church, Presbyterian or Baptist or something like that?

00:51:51 i don't think so no um but but this is really interesting joel is that so much of this

00:51:57 conversation is a matter of questions of prudence right like and this is why i'm trying to dig into

00:52:05 what the bible you know what does the bible say what does you know what you know do the exegesis

00:52:09 what does the bible say like so like if you know and people have a really hard time with theory

00:52:15 people who have struggled with critical thinking always want to latch on to concretes and to

00:52:22 exceptions and they struggle with abstracts and it's kind of like it's a question we used to call

00:52:27 it like sort of like blue sky thinking like just imagine try to come up with something so you know

00:52:33 we should all ask ourselves if um if nine we'll use nine because it's an odd number and a vote

00:52:40 could be one uh and it's the fellowship the ring so that's great too but if nine christians washed

00:52:45 up on a desert island and not nine christians washed up on an island and they had their bibles

00:52:51 and they were trying to come up with a system of government what what is in bounds and what's out

00:52:57 of bounds and honestly i think you'd have a pretty hard time you're again like the question of like a

00:53:02 national church which i reject i do not agree with and i think is imprudent um and and arguably

00:53:08 could be unbiblical but also i think you would have a hard time if if depending on what the

00:53:14 relationship of that church was to the government you would have a hard time saying that's completely

00:53:20 inadmissible but as soon as you start saying that the government can tell that church who counts as

00:53:25 a christian or not well now we're out of bounds we're out of bounds red flag red flag red flag

00:53:29 but um anyway no i don't support that i wouldn't want to see it in the american setting where they

00:53:34 have it in the english setting right they have it in you know that that's our heritage in many ways

00:53:38 we came out of those who were part of a national church um and i and that's part of the reason why

00:53:44 we fled that's right yeah because so no i don't want that uh so what i would say is at the federal

00:53:50 level it should be creedal you know and there's some of this is wilson language also but uh it

00:53:55 should be creedal not confessional so it's not the 1689 it's not the westminster it's not the

00:53:59 new hampshire um it's you know it's not the heidelberg well yeah but heidelberg is a little

00:54:04 bit looser but um but even i would i would advocate for even looser than the heidelberg

00:54:09 um that it would be creedal not confessional yeah i think that the united states of america

00:54:14 as a republic at the federal level should affirm um publicly and swear its allegiance to the

00:54:20 apostles creed i think that that would be wonderful um in terms of individual states

00:54:26 within the republic uh being able to have a state church um i think that if there's not a national

00:54:32 church right if the national church is presbyterian and then texas is reformed baptist then you know

00:54:38 you you might have some squabbles right you might fight a war over that whereas you know if it's

00:54:42 bald eagle at the federal level and mockingbird for texas right if we're talking about birds

00:54:46 nobody's going to pick up arms over over well your your federal bird is is um casting a shadow

00:54:53 over our state bird but religion right that people fight wars over that and so but if it's creedal

00:54:58 and and the creed by design these you know nicene and and athanasius and uh you know apostles creed

00:55:06 is is so narrow that it that you cannot affirm it as a muslim you cannot affirm it as an atheist

00:55:12 you cannot affirm it as a buddhist um but also intentionally so broad baptist presbyterian

00:55:17 anglican like you're good right it's this pan protestant by design if that was at the federal

00:55:23 so it's separation of church and state and and um but no separation of christ and state well what

00:55:29 does it mean for the the state to be in allegiance to christ doctrinally i would say a creed a creed

00:55:35 would be a really good way to go would you have any pushback with that or would you agree with

00:55:38 that or yeah look i'm not going to sign on to that just right here right now in this in this

00:55:42 I do think that that that does raise some that certainly raises some First Amendment questions right at the federal level.

00:55:50 I mean, again, we also have to recognize our own American history like we we've walked on soil in these United States where they had state level religious establishments.

00:55:58 And they did, you know, through into the mid 1800s.

00:56:01 1800s, and the First Amendment actually was not understood to be applied to states until it got

00:56:06 progressively applied to states through a variety of Supreme Court rulings, which some people would

00:56:12 argue was sort of an overreach, an overreach of the federal government's power, because the purpose

00:56:17 of the First Amendment primarily is to restrain the federal government. So actually, in the American

00:56:21 federal system, Joel, I would be more comfortable with the idea that the federal government

00:56:29 It maintains maybe even a non-credal, you know, recognition of God.

00:56:35 So, like, I think initially I would be more comfortable with sort of like a preamble, like a, you know, a theistic preamble to our Constitution, something like that.

00:56:47 Or a recognition.

00:56:48 Theistic?

00:56:49 Yeah.

00:56:49 Or triune?

00:56:51 Well, I'd be happy with either.

00:56:53 Okay.

00:56:54 But I'm thinking of lowest common denominator here.

00:56:56 I've got my political hat on.

00:56:57 and um i can tell then also i've got my theonomist hat yeah yeah right and then also um you know

00:57:05 sort of like you know zambia has it right so this is very interesting when i had a chance to

00:57:09 moderate that panel at founders with right with um with voti and uh tom you know it's this

00:57:16 interesting you're talking about ships passing in the night you know voti is over there in zambia

00:57:20 where they have a christian preamble to their constitution and the zambians are looking at

00:57:24 the united states this is this is essentially his words i'm paraphrasing you could go listen and

00:57:28 check where's like the zambians are looking at the united states wishing we had they had our

00:57:32 heritage our christian heritage whereas right now i'm kind of looking at zambia and wishing we had

00:57:37 their preamble and so why can't we put the preamble on top of the heritage here in the united states

00:57:44 of america um i have i'd have to think more about the idea of a but is zambia's christian or is it

00:57:51 Theistic, I guess would be my question.

00:57:53 Is it distinctly Christian?

00:57:54 Is it the Lord Jesus Christ?

00:57:56 Yeah, I'd have to double check on that.

00:57:58 Yeah.

00:57:58 But I think that I will say, Joel, I will say theologically when I consider what a civil government can do and perhaps even should do.

00:58:08 And so then if I say should, then yes, I'm signing on in a certain extent.

00:58:13 But I do believe that the government should recognize, is obligated before God to recognize that they derived their ruling authority from God, from the Christian God.

00:58:24 And so when they ask that question, who is that God and how has he revealed himself?

00:58:29 Well, I believe he's revealed himself in creation, but he's also in these last days most fully revealed himself in his son.

00:58:37 And so I do think that is something I think that is something that government is not only able to do, but is ultimately responsible to do.

00:58:47 Yeah, that's good. I'll be honest. You know, so we're talking and I'm getting to know you better, getting to know your position better. And I know you're still thinking about these things. You're writing on these things. You're studying these things. So I'm not going to hold you to like this is your official position. You must keep to it until you die.

00:59:02 um so i know that you're you know like you and i both we're we're like everybody we're works in 0.67

00:59:06 progress and we're progressing and we're learning all this sounds like a big wind up to call me a

00:59:10 squish in someone well no no well yeah kind of kind of but but but in the most charitable way

00:59:14 possible what i was gonna say though is like how how are people bothered by you you know what i

00:59:20 mean like like i'm listening to what you're saying and you're talking about a theistic preamble

00:59:25 you know and i'm like how are the g3 because because you're like you're the guy that people

00:59:31 you know they're like people are like this is you know uh will you know william wolf is baptist

00:59:36 you know christian nationalist and and and it's totalitarian and draconian and and um you know

00:59:42 this magisterial pope and and i'm like and i'm i'm i'm watching you on twitter i'm i'm i'm you

00:59:49 know we're in a thread together offline we're talking you know like these kinds of things and

00:59:53 and i'm listening to you now in our interview and i'm like dude like like you're i mean yeah

00:59:59 you're pretty soft you know like it's the it's nothing to be intimidated by you know what i mean

01:00:04 it doesn't feel that strong what what do you what do you think guys why are these guys so bothered

01:00:09 why do they think that you're like like darth vader yeah well um well first of all joel according

01:00:15 to the rules of manliness now that you call me soft we're gonna have to find each other offline

01:00:20 and take care of this um and i've been training with matt reynolds at barbell logic so oh yeah

01:00:27 i know matt i've met him put me on a fight plan um i will call matt and ask him to fight for me

01:00:32 you know what you know what i think actually it's funny like what bothers you is that the

01:00:37 christianity or the nationalism i think i really offend a lot of people with my unapologetic american

01:00:42 nationalism i think that's what really trips people up and that is something man that i've

01:00:47 just had in my bones since i was like a kid like it just the conception of the importance of a

01:00:54 nation and the sovereignty of a nation and a government caring for its people. I mean,

01:01:00 that was something that I cared about deeply even before I was a Christian. I grew up in North

01:01:05 Carolina and I saw my friends' fathers and their businesses struggle due to terrible trade deals

01:01:12 that exported product manufacturing to China with cheap labor and lower standards,

01:01:19 whose fathers had construction businesses who could no longer compete with all the construction 0.56

01:01:24 businesses, hiring waves of illegal immigrants and paying them under the table, cash wages, 0.98

01:01:29 no reporting to the IRS, none of the tax obligations. So I grew up sort of like lower 1.00

01:01:37 middle class, like blue collar, man, shopping at Goodwill. And I went to a Southern Baptist

01:01:44 high school. It's interesting. I went to a Southern Baptist high school and a PCA church.

01:01:47 And my friends' dads were used car salesmen, upholsterers, local cops, construction workers, and it very much was sort of watching this decline of the American community, the local community outside of Charlotte, North Carolina, that really just put a fire in my bones for a system of government that cares for its people and its citizens.

01:02:12 And I've watched how the uniparty system here in the United States of America has has has kowtowed and served a globalist and regime oriented set of interests over and against your common American man for decades now.

01:02:27 And this is where a scholar like Samuel Huntington, who was one of the most renowned political scientists of the 20th century in his book, Who Are We?

01:02:38 It's what, you know, it's very, very important book with me here right now.

01:02:42 Like, who are we? And it came out 2004 and it was lambasted as being racist and xenophobic and all this stuff.

01:02:49 And he's tracing the roots of our American identity. And this really plays into the nationalistic conversation.

01:02:55 And he really pinpoints that in the post-war era after World War II in the 60s and 70s, this dovetails exactly with Age of Entitlement. I think Caldwell cites Huntington multiple times that our elites started unmaking and remaking America in sort of an unprecedented way that sort of forsook all of our national bonds of identity.

01:03:18 who are we as you know as essentially like a largely christian protestant you know country

01:03:24 inheriting an english common law tradition respecting religion and instead you know sort 1.00

01:03:30 of getting all rid of all that which people from every you know nation on earth was welcome to come 0.96

01:03:35 to and join and commit to our creed which our creed as americans is actually situated in a 0.51

01:03:41 cultural context and you can't pull it out from that and so these sheer creedalists have been

01:03:46 remaking america and you know we've we've we've opened our borders we've you know shipped away

01:03:52 our jobs and so all this to say joel i think i think what really bothers people about me is i'm

01:03:57 a christian and i love the lord and i'm also a christian unapologetically says that when i'm

01:04:02 called to love my neighbor the first person i'm called to love is my flesh and blood neighbor

01:04:06 that's my citizen neighbor that's across the street from me and not some sort of pie in the

01:04:11 sky abstraction, abstraction of sort of a global citizen neighbor. And so I hardcore reject

01:04:18 globalism. And I do think that Christians should be appropriately bounded nationalists. And what

01:04:25 type of nationalist should you be? Well, you shouldn't be a white nationalist. You shouldn't

01:04:28 be a black nationalist. You shouldn't be an Islamic nationalist. You should be a Christian 1.00

01:04:32 nationalist because that rightly orders your national loves. And you sure as heck shouldn't 1.00

01:04:36 to be a secular nationalist oh goodness no we're an lgbt nationalist right that's where we are right

01:04:41 now right the global american empire is exporting lgbt nationalism all across the globe and imposing

01:04:48 it upon countries that want nothing to do with it i know man it's it's tough i have young men who 0.73

01:04:52 like will seek counsel like hey i'm thinking about going into the military and this and that and

01:04:56 aside from the difficulty that they would have as a young christian man in the military

01:05:00 with the military itself being progressive and woke and just you know a plague on christian

01:05:06 values. It's not even just that surviving the military with their faith intact would be a

01:05:11 challenge in and of itself, but it's also that even if they, you know, did well in the military,

01:05:16 what would their actual vocation accomplish that they, you know, that we'd be able to raise 0.83

01:05:23 another transgender flag in Afghanistan, you know, or like the Homo Jihad is not, that's not 0.84

01:05:30 appealing to young men. They don't want to work out and learn how to shoot rifles so that they 1.00

01:05:33 can join the homo jihad you know what i mean like we're a laughing stock on the global stage right 1.00

01:05:39 now people are making fun of our nation yeah nobody wants to join the military and risk their

01:05:43 lives and at the same time risk their career and getting you know dishonorably discharged or

01:05:49 court-martialed because they miss pronoun you know sergeant jenkins who's six foot two and 250 pounds

01:05:57 and is asking you to call him sheep right like nobody wants to do that and it is it's become

01:06:03 quite a bad deal for the sons of the american heartland to sign up to go wage war for like

01:06:09 the rain the rainbow exports nobody wants to do that and so it is i think really joel i do offend

01:06:15 people with my unapologetic and christian defense of of nationhood um yeah and i've been working on

01:06:23 that a lot like you know i i do think that i think that the principles of christianity in no way

01:06:28 vitiate national loyalties in fact they rightly order them and they they dampen them i was talking

01:06:34 with my very good friend russ vote who is the uh you know president of the center for renewing

01:06:39 america he recently finished reading return of the strong gods by r.r reno and i highly recommend

01:06:44 that and in it reno posits that as we've lived in this great era of openness and what in so the

01:06:51 openness era is an era of secularism, multiculturalism, principled pluralism. And as it has pressed upon us to cast off traditional loyalties to religion, to family, to nation, and sort of downplay all of them, it's left us rootless and, you know, and homeless. And we've been, you know, instead, here's come Marxism, cultural Marxism, and wokeism. And now what we're seeing as a backlash to that

01:07:21 will actually be a real rise of renewed ethnic nationalism and ethnic hatred there's going to be

01:07:27 a backlash to the way that we've been sliced and diced by race and intersectionality and i actually

01:07:34 think this is so funny when i say we should be christian nationalists people say you're a fascist

01:07:39 you're a racist and i say no you don't understand a rightly ordered christian nationalism is the

01:07:45 only thing that's going to stand against the renewed ethnic nationalism that's coming as a 0.97

01:07:51 backlash and if you doubt me just look at south africa right we need to really understand who

01:07:56 we are as an american people and our deep christian roots and we need to recover our our sort of place

01:08:03 in this world and stand on our feet on the soil under god uh and i use the word soil i don't mean

01:08:09 that in any sort of like vague reference or anything like that like stand on this ground

01:08:13 and welcome people to join us in that project, whoever you are,

01:08:17 as long as you'll sign up for it and not subvert it.

01:08:21 Amen.

01:08:22 Yeah, I, you know, is there any nation right now that you're aware of

01:08:27 that hates itself more than America?

01:08:29 Maybe England.

01:08:31 Maybe England, yeah.

01:08:32 It's just become this common, I don't know,

01:08:38 essence of just this self-loathing mentality,

01:08:42 like that to do you know to be america first you know or to and and then christians have it too 0.65

01:08:48 like so it's at the national level like americans hate themselves and christians hate themselves

01:08:52 evangelicals hate themselves right like it's there's theology right yes and and it's just

01:08:59 like we always like we dog on ourselves we like we feel like and i think some of it um

01:09:05 some of it really goes down to you know it how do you respond to blessing right it's like you know

01:09:14 like um do you do you feel guilty and ashamed like right now i've got three little girls and

01:09:22 and a son and uh they're uh warmly clothed their tummies are full they're in nice little uh beds

01:09:32 and they're sleeping and you know what i feel i don't feel an ounce of guilt and i know that

01:09:39 millions of children are starving um but if i count this is if i count it as privilege that i

01:09:45 took from someone else then guilt is the only proper response but if i count it as blessing

01:09:52 from god that was given then gratitude is the only proper response and i think like some of

01:09:59 there's so many multifaceted, you know, all these different factors, but our idea of economics from

01:10:05 Marx, you know, that like, but in God's economy, the pie can grow. Like, that's what capitalism

01:10:11 has showed us. It's God's economy. It's the way that, you know, and yes, there's crony capitalism

01:10:16 and there's abuses and there's all, you know, but I'm just speaking in general, in a general sense

01:10:20 that somebody can make a ton of money and yet the tide causes all the ships to rise. You know,

01:10:29 some guy makes a billion dollars because what he created actually provides that much value to

01:10:35 everyone else. Because now everyone, you know, has electricity, you know, or has this or has

01:10:41 that. And so everyone's more productive and everybody's standard of living rises. And the

01:10:46 guy who made everyone else this much more rich, he gets to be that much more rich. That's called

01:10:52 justice. That's biblical. There's nothing wrong with that. And so my point is like, if we believe

01:10:57 that we live in God's world. And like he told us to be fruitful and multiply. If we think it's a

01:11:03 zero-sum game, I just think just in economic terms and the spiritual things, you know, we could

01:11:07 discuss that in a second, but just in economic terms, if we think that the world that God made

01:11:12 is a zero-sum game in terms of material resources, then God's command to be fruitful and multiply

01:11:19 was actually cruel. It was God setting man up to eventually, by his obedience to God's cultural

01:11:26 mandate to seal his own doom. Like, what do we think the character nature of God is? Do we think

01:11:31 that God literally commanded us in the garden to do the very thing that he knew in his fixed

01:11:38 income world would destroy us? Or can the pie grow? Can humans, lowercase c creators, not x

01:11:45 nihilo out of nothing, but can we take and multiply not just ourselves through procreation,

01:11:52 But the world that God made, fruits and vegetables and technology and all these kinds of things.

01:11:59 And if we believe that, and we believe it all comes from the Father of lights, then we see it as blessing, not stolen privilege, but granted blessing.

01:12:08 Now it's not guilt, but it's gratitude and grateful people.

01:12:13 We live in a nation of ingrates, and ingrates are self-loathing, and they're suicidal.

01:12:20 I think these are a lot of the problems.

01:12:22 You got any thoughts on that?

01:12:23 Yeah, let me try to go with like three different thoughts on this.

01:12:27 First of all, the loser theology, the loser political theology that we're trying to critique here and help our brothers to embrace pursuing victory in Christ, right, is again a product of preemptive surrender with a culture and these negotiated compromises.

01:12:45 And you're touching on a very interesting point, Joel, because a lot of these negotiated surrenders with the world are on the ideological front.

01:12:54 So essentially, you're touching on what could be called sort of Malthusian sort of view of population.

01:13:00 The world is overpopulated. You know, we're having too many kids.

01:13:02 I mean, I just saw I mean, I saw an article today where the headline was, are you afraid of having another kid because of climate change?

01:13:10 You are not alone. I mean, are you kidding me?

01:13:12 This actually, Joel, this is a theme. So there's this very wicked satanic Malthusian ideology that the world is overpopulated, that humans are a plague on the planet, that it's not that the planet was made for us, but we're plaguing the planet, right?

01:13:30 And so so many evangelicals and Christians have adopted sort of a little bit of that theology.

01:13:37 I would argue you see some of it laundered through the gospel coalition as they sort of celebrate singleness, right?

01:13:44 And the way we sort of prioritize singleness and celebrated singleness that I think in a way that Scripture doesn't speak to.

01:13:50 Of course, Scripture does laud a single life in a certain way, right?

01:13:55 But that's not the creation norm.

01:13:57 Again, the creation norm is the Christian family that forms the Christian society.

01:14:01 So I want to make this point. 0.91

01:14:02 First of all, we have preemptive surrenders with godless ideologies that create a negotiated compromise in which we fail to fully pursue what God has called us to.

01:14:14 And it's fascinating. 0.94

01:14:16 This ties into our talk about sort of the receding nature of Christendom is as you look at where over the last 500 years the Christian influence has been most profusive and the standard of living has risen to unimaginable heights.

01:14:34 Now you're looking at nations in Europe, like Germany, that's closing, that's shuttering its nuclear power plants and is issuing warnings to people that they might have to ration their energy, they might be cold over the winter.

01:14:49 And so as we see Christendom receding, we're seeing the material blessings and benefits of what we could call sort of applied Christian wisdom to using the resources well that God has given us.

01:15:03 And again, we're not talking prosperity theology here.

01:15:05 We're not talking about guaranteed blessings from God.

01:15:09 You know, this isn't magic.

01:15:10 But what we are talking about is gratitude for the goodness that God has allowed to be developed in our lives and in our history and in the world and stewarding that well for our current and future generations.

01:15:23 There's this new hilarious parody account on Twitter.

01:15:27 It's not me, I promise. 0.60

01:15:28 The BoomerCon Baptist.

01:15:29 and um and it is hilariously lampooning uh an approach that you know we're situating

01:15:36 generationally with the boomers but i'd say this approach applies to so many of our christian

01:15:41 spheres that like life's been pretty good for us and we don't really need to worry about the future

01:15:46 just just preach the gospel and come what may you know and that is not that's a little bit different

01:15:52 from having sort of guilt over privilege that's apathy right so we don't want to have guilt and

01:15:58 we don't want to have apathy apathy we want to have um action oriented gratitude grateful

01:16:04 stewardship yeah instead of guilty instead of apathetic guilt it's you know it's um

01:16:09 grateful stewardship or or um or or even grateful productivity you know or like because that's what

01:16:16 you do when you're grateful um grateful people out give guilty people grateful people gratitude

01:16:25 fuels generosity far more than guilt does because guilt's always just looking for the bottom line

01:16:30 it's guilt only wants to um only cares about the optics it only cares um it only cares about the

01:16:36 appearances so it's like what what that's that's the whole idea of virtue signaling virtue signaling

01:16:42 people are guilty people and they're looking for what's the minimum thing i can do to prove that

01:16:47 I'm not guilty to regain, to publicly establish the object of innocence, right? Oh, I can do this

01:16:55 thing. I can do that thing. Whereas grateful people, that we're not looking to appear innocent.

01:17:00 We believe that we're already innocent because of Christ and his finished workforce. And so we're

01:17:04 looking to actually give, not virtue signal, but to act real generosity. And generosity, not just

01:17:09 in charitable giving. That's one way to give. Another way to give is to work and to build and

01:17:16 to multiply. I've said before, when it comes to giving, when you think like, well, what does

01:17:23 the average Christian give over the course of their life? Is it 10%, is it 5%, 3%, 20%?

01:17:31 Well, the answer is it's 100% because you can't take anything with you. So the question is not

01:17:35 how much you're going to give, it's when you're going to give it, how you're going to give it,

01:17:38 and who you're going to give it to. And so I even, and this seems counterintuitive,

01:17:43 but as a local pastor, I regularly encourage people in my church, yeah, I think 10% is something

01:17:47 that God commands. I do believe that, you know, because the general equity of 10% is, what's the

01:17:51 general equity of 10%? It's 10%. So I do believe that's a new commandment. I think under the new

01:17:58 covenant that the tithe continues. However, regularly I have conversation with people saying,

01:18:04 hey, brother, feel free to pull back to do this, to do that, because it's a guy trying to start a

01:18:09 business he's trying to do and and i know that he's gonna be far more generous in the long run

01:18:13 yeah right um if if he's able to have something to build in the short run and so having a surplus

01:18:19 all those kind of things so anyways all that i think is is vitally important and yeah i just

01:18:23 think we have a bunch of guilty people you know what virtue signalers are they're losers right

01:18:27 like those are losers because what they're they virtue signalers cannot comprehend you know like

01:18:35 a victory right like because they they want to they already feel bad for whatever it is that 0.52

01:18:39 they think has like you know been a been accrued to them and so that you see this in the racial

01:18:44 arena like you know white guilt and you know and so i think so much of like you know so much of

01:18:50 loser political theology and general evangelicalism has been driven by white guilt which is absurd 0.71

01:18:56 um and uh so that's that's silly i think you see that very much with like beth moore and russell 0.93

01:19:02 more like even david french i feel like strong strong notes of like white guilt pervade sort of

01:19:08 their approach to cultural engagement and christianity and politics um but shoot i was

01:19:14 going somewhere else with this uh i i forgot what it was no no worries one thing i was gonna one

01:19:20 thing i was gonna say earlier was just you know the prosperity gospel that you said you were like

01:19:23 this isn't the prosperity gospel this is working it's not just wishful thinking that's the only

01:19:27 That's the thing they say, man.

01:19:28 They say Christian nationalism is like political prosperity gospel.

01:19:32 Yes, and I have no doubt that they would say that.

01:19:34 True.

01:19:35 But that's the problem is that I think that's part of the decline.

01:19:39 So much of this is theological, and I think that's just one of many factors.

01:19:43 But the prosperity gospel and, sadly, the Reformed camps, I believe, overreaction to the prosperity gospel.

01:19:51 So the prosperity gospel, um, is the prosperity gospel did not say that obedience brings blessing.

01:19:59 The Bible says that the prosperity gospel doesn't say obedience brings blessing.

01:20:03 The prosperity gospel is, is a way of plaguing poor people in the same way that the lottery does.

01:20:09 Um, Jesse DiPlantis has the same strategy as, as the, um, as the super ball, you know, um, or, um, power ball, you know, it's, um, it's telling people that you can actually avoid faithful longevity.

01:20:21 and hard work and obedience, and that through the power of positivity, manifesting something,

01:20:28 it's faith, not in Christ, that brings about fruit, right? We're saved by faith alone,

01:20:32 but faith that saves is never alone. It's accompanied with good fruit. So instead of

01:20:36 faith in Christ, which is saving faith, which is always accompanied with fruit, and one of those

01:20:40 fruits being hard work and obedience, it's not faith in Christ, it's faith in your faith. And so

01:20:47 faith in your faith, power of positivity, manifesting your destiny, those kinds of

01:20:51 things. Same kind of mentality as somebody who plays a lottery. And who plays a lottery?

01:20:55 Poor people. It's a plague on impoverished people. And that's what the prosperity, 1.00

01:21:01 so the prosperity gospel was not saying that it wasn't a workspace thing. It was a wishful

01:21:06 thinking. It was a way of actually circumventing work. It's actually trying to get, now legalism

01:21:12 is its own category and that's a thing but the prosperity gospel was not legalism not not in

01:21:17 not in the technical sense it was not if you work hard god will bless you it was you don't have to

01:21:21 work hard at all you can just tap your ruby red slippers three times say there's no place like

01:21:25 home and boom you're a millionaire and then the reaction to it um uh also circumvented hard work 0.96

01:21:32 and obedience bringing blessing um by by a suffering over realized poverty gospel a loser 0.88

01:21:38 or theology. It's like, no matter what you do, like where Job becomes the normative Christian

01:21:44 life. But is Job the normative? And so, you know, so now I understand there are, you know,

01:21:50 I've said this before, it, you know, ticks off plenty of people, but I said, all poverty is

01:21:55 rooted in sin. It's not always rooted in your individual sin, but you can track all poverty,

01:22:00 lack of blessing to sin. So North Korea, there are faithful Christians who are impoverished

01:22:06 despite their obedience but it's still because of sin not their sin but but a sinful wicked 0.96

01:22:10 oppressive regime china same kind of thing and then in america that but where you have less 0.92

01:22:15 oppressive leaders and we've got some pretty oppressive ones but historically we have less

01:22:19 oppression in terms of systems and government and those kinds of things um well there when you find

01:22:24 poor people it probably is individual you know moral culpability that you because you might be 0.68

01:22:30 lazy now there's still extenuating circumstances somebody could be a paraplegic all these different

01:22:34 things. But I'm just saying, so it's not a 100%, you know, all the time, but as a general rule of

01:22:39 thumb, do we believe that ordinarily, there's the caveat, there's the disclaimer, the adjective,

01:22:44 ordinarily, that ordinarily in a relatively free nation, as your context, do we believe that

01:22:51 ordinarily obedience brings blessing? Not just heavenly, that's guaranteed. True obedience that

01:22:57 stems from faith guarantees heavenly blessing. But do we believe that ordinarily obedience brings

01:23:03 tangible blessing in this life as well. I don't think a lot of gospel coalition,

01:23:08 gospel-centered, young, reformed, restless type, I don't think we believe that anymore. I think we

01:23:13 so opposed gospel centrality, this red letterism kind of thing that we so championed sola scriptura

01:23:20 to the expense of tota scriptura. We so championed fighting back against the prosperity gospel,

01:23:27 we embraced a poverty gospel. We so combated legalism that we embraced antinomianism. And

01:23:34 so in all these, we became pietists. I think that's the problem. And to be fair, you say, 0.96

01:23:41 oh, the covenant theology of Baptist doesn't encompass. I don't think it's a Baptist Presbyterian

01:23:46 because Presbyterians have their losers. R. Scott Clark is the poster child for the Presbyterian. 0.99

01:23:50 They've got plenty of losers on the Presbyterian side, and we've got plenty on the Baptist side.

01:23:54 i think it's pietism i think it's this i i don't think it's just the the covenant issue so yeah i 0.89

01:24:01 mean as i assume we're working towards an end here we try to encourage people to not be baptist be

01:24:08 you know be like pursue winning to the glory of god right um in the civil sphere which is

01:24:14 fundamentally different than in the ecclesial and the church sphere right there are categorical

01:24:19 differences and we've racked and stacked and try to take down uh sort of like some um sort of like

01:24:25 myth fact right so myth number one uh christian nationalism is political presbyterianism no it's

01:24:31 not here's the fact the presbyterians according to their covenant theology do believe that that

01:24:37 infant that they baptize is now a christian they would claim saving faith for that christian and

01:24:43 for that individual whereas we're saying that anybody who we're not in any way saying that

01:24:49 a christian nation is saying everybody within that nation is a christian we're talking fundamentally

01:24:56 about how the magistrates and the laws of that land and the social customs and the civil customs

01:25:01 are oriented to the one true god his revealed son jesus christ and are upholding christian morality

01:25:08 in in what they do right that's what we mean by christian nation we're not making a uh salvific

01:25:14 declaration of those inside right so it's not political real quick did you say presbyterians

01:25:18 it almost sounded like you said that they hold to baptismal regeneration you didn't say that did

01:25:23 you uh i just want to clarify well i saw i mean i i don't i don't think that they express it like

01:25:30 that because they wouldn't they wouldn't call them a christian just to be fair they they would

01:25:34 just say they would say that um we do believe that they are external members of the new covenant in

01:25:39 some sense have union with christ and and will become christians as they lay hold of the internal

01:25:44 promises of the covenant through faith right like you know i'm just trying to get i got a lot of

01:25:49 presbyterian friends and i you know and i so because it's not like you said they think you

01:25:53 know when they baptize an infant that they're a christian and and they they believe that they're

01:25:58 a part of this christian new covenant but they wouldn't say christian in the term of in the

01:26:02 sense of it being uh the infant is regenerate upon baptism right well no i i understand that

01:26:09 They don't say that the infant is regenerate and pumped back.

01:26:11 Right, okay.

01:26:12 But they do.

01:26:14 See, here's the difference. 0.89

01:26:16 In a Christian nation, we're not saying every citizen is a Christian.

01:26:21 Presbyterians do say essentially every member of their covenant community is a Christian.

01:26:29 So we're not political Presbyterians because we don't believe that.

01:26:31 And our commitment to regeneration, to personal regeneration and, you know, a profession of faith and believers baptism, that set of our theology does not vitiate what God expects from civil rulers.

01:26:47 And what God expects from civil rulers is not political Presbyterianism.

01:26:52 It is essentially Christian nationalism.

01:26:56 So we knock down that one myth and then there's the fact.

01:26:59 and then the other one uh that i was just thinking of too was oh man was uh shoot joe

01:27:06 we covered so many things i'm sorry the prosperity gospel thing oh on the oh the prosperity gospel

01:27:12 yeah the prosperity gospel right and that's it's like okay so again christian nationalism is a is

01:27:18 a an aspiration right it's a theory it's not a promise right so it's like like you brought up

01:27:24 you know you brought up believers in north korea and sometimes people talk about christian nationalism

01:27:28 like it's triumphalism, like it's political prosperity gospel, but there's nothing about

01:27:32 Christian nationalism that, you know, fails to recognize that actually many, many, many,

01:27:37 if not the majority of our brothers and sisters in Christ around the globe are suffering under

01:27:41 unjust governments. They're unjust governments. They should be just. Just because they're

01:27:47 suffering again, doesn't mean that that government shouldn't rule differently. And that the Christians

01:27:53 who are suffering under that unjust government, while they preach the gospel, pray for conversions,

01:27:57 seek to spread the gospel of jesus christ have house churches suffer persecution that just

01:28:04 because that that those are their physical circumstances that they shouldn't be calling

01:28:08 on the rulers to repent and change the physical circumstances that they live under right so it's

01:28:14 like i want i want north korea to become a christian nation and by becoming a christian

01:28:19 nation they would i trust experience um you know spiritual blessings and revival along with material

01:28:26 blessings and revival that flow from obedience not from wishful thinking and so it's not political

01:28:32 you know christian absolute is not the prosperity gospel applied to politics and then you know i

01:28:38 think that the i don't know if there are any more we need to cover but i think those i think those

01:28:41 are the ones those are two really good ones and the pietism thing that we've covered yes pietism

01:28:46 conversionism okay this is another this is important too before we wrap up so our baptist

01:28:51 brothers and many of our friends who have been in the anti-woke movement so stalwarts that we're

01:28:57 thankful for i can think of 10 people off the top of my head we went through this sort of like just

01:29:03 preach the gospel or is it just preach the gospel right so it's like so when people come along with

01:29:08 social programs and prescriptions to address societal ills that are not in line with scripture

01:29:16 we should reject those i mean we have to make determinations and decisions right like if they

01:29:22 want to say abolish the police we say well no that's that's fundamentally unchristian because

01:29:27 that's unjust and will cause suffering so if that's what you're saying yes please stop saying

01:29:31 that and just preach the gospel you know um but we i've seen brothers say that the only way

01:29:37 christian nationalism comes about is through essentially mass conversions so the church

01:29:42 has to preach the gospel and then if we if we get mass conversion spiritual outpouring then we could

01:29:48 have something like a christian nation to which again i'd say okay that is the job of the church

01:29:52 and i'm not conflating the mission of the church and the role of the state what i am saying is that

01:29:56 there's a both and track that's going on here and do not need to subscribe ourselves or circumvent

01:30:02 ourselves or have a you know a preemptive surrender and a negotiated compromise that says

01:30:06 we can only have a christian nation if we get 51 of our population to be christians you know and

01:30:12 that's what we should want i don't want that joel i want a christian nation with if only 5 of our

01:30:18 population is christians and somehow we're the ones who control the reins of power and we pass

01:30:24 good and just laws that will benefit the 95 of the population who aren't converted i still want that

01:30:31 that's what i want for my kids and that's what i want for the 90 95 of the population that's not

01:30:35 converted so i know what you're saying i completely agree the problem is though you couldn't have that

01:30:40 in a representative republic if it was five percent so but a christian monarch maybe that

01:30:47 could be episode no i'm just kidding but i hear you loud and clear and you're right that is worth

01:30:52 saying it's it is both and because it guys are you know because i'm the post-millennial guy so

01:30:57 like i believe that a majority of the world will be saved and i would take bb warfield's position

01:31:01 on the narrow way um that you know it's narrow it's difficult uh few ever find it um in the same

01:31:07 way that the 10 virgins five are wise and five are foolish that doesn't mean there's literally

01:31:10 going to be 50 of the human population in hell and 50 in heaven so i would agree with bb warfield i

01:31:15 would agree with other post-millennial guys and right now just for the record i would say that

01:31:18 hell far out populates um uh heaven but i think that we're still in the early church and we've

01:31:23 got plenty of time the church lives in the light of eternity it can afford to be patient and that

01:31:27 over the course of time as 11 works through the whole batch of dough that we're gonna you know

01:31:30 heaven will be a very very large party and that hell will be the minority report but all that

01:31:35 being said yeah I think it's both and I think it's we pray for revival we preach we ask that 0.84

01:31:41 God would pour out his spirit that there would be conversion because this would all be a lot easier

01:31:45 with a regenerate majority but at the same time it's not just that because because we've had

01:31:55 numbers before and um and it's not just numbers um but it's it's political will and and that's

01:32:04 not a bad thing power is not inherently evil winning is not inherently wrong like jesus died

01:32:11 yeah uh-huh but he also resurrected and he ascended and he holds you know a scepter like

01:32:18 he you know what i mean jesus is a winner he's not a loser and so um to have political will and

01:32:23 and to be able to say it is both in, it's a ground game of conversion, but it's also,

01:32:29 it's an air raid, you know, in terms of, there is a top-down sense of like, I want to stop the

01:32:34 murder of babies, whether 50% of the population wants it or not. Because it doesn't matter how

01:32:41 many people want it. We're not a raw democracy. We never have been. That's not biblical. You look

01:32:46 at every example of what would be the equivalent of a raw democracy in the Bible, and it's always

01:32:52 negative, right? It's Samuel confronting Saul. Why did you do this? Because I was afraid of the

01:32:57 people, you know, or because I was afraid of the people. It's always like, you know, the people

01:33:01 that made me do it. It's like democracy in terms of biblical case studies is always negative,

01:33:07 never positive. And so... And that's another myth fact right here, or I'd say an unhelpful

01:33:12 piece of this conversation, which is give me the exegetical case for Christian nationalism. Okay,

01:33:16 actually, I think that I can do that. I think the exegetical, the scriptural covenantal case

01:33:21 goes from you know genesis 1 and you factor in genesis 3 genesis 9

01:33:26 exodus 20 you know psalm psalms 2 daniel 6

01:33:31 you know jonah and and then into matthew 28

01:33:35 romans 13 first peter 2 like act 17 like i think that there's

01:33:40 a lot that goes into crafting a christian political theory that you can

01:33:44 draw from scripture and many you know much smarter men have

01:33:48 done that than i have throughout the reformed tradition including some fellow baptists like

01:33:53 john gill who recognized like there's something there's something about living in the in the

01:33:59 dying and rotten light of the enlightenment that has cast a pall over our ability to read scripture

01:34:05 that some of our our forebearers had much clearer sight on as they as they still sort of were closer

01:34:11 to the warmth of the reformation when when they would all say calvin john gill luther whoever

01:34:17 would say oh yeah a ruler a ruler can't rule rightly unless he recognizes god okay and and

01:34:23 somehow now we've decided that a ruler can only rule rightly if he doesn't know who god is and

01:34:29 that's just insane and in john gill you know it said that the role of kings and magistrates is

01:34:34 the enforcement of both tables that they should have a special concern to the way that those who

01:34:39 are their subjects spoke of the one true god you know and and we don't have to get into first table

01:34:45 or second table enforcement, but, you know, brethren say, give me the exegetical case for

01:34:50 Christian nationalism, which I want to say, give me the exegetical case for classical liberalism.

01:34:54 Right. And so much of this boils down to prudence and, and there are principles applied in prudence 0.89

01:35:01 and just sort of just, you know, just sort of write off this, this effort to fight for something

01:35:08 better than what we have right now for out of love for neighbor, love for posterity and love

01:35:15 for our people in this nation i just think is unwise you know and there are some people who

01:35:19 call it larping and honestly man like that that just is like okay well then i'm gonna go i'm gonna

01:35:25 go larp to god's glory right amen yeah it's not whether but which i think that that would be one

01:35:32 of the themes you know of our conversation today you know and i'll end with this you know who's

01:35:37 going to be the protestant pope um well uh the protestant but it's not whether but which the

01:35:44 protestant pope for the last three years was dr falchi every protestant closed their doors when

01:35:49 he said so when that pope spoke all the protestants obeyed um so you will have a protestant pope you

01:35:56 can have a good one or a bad one right you can have a christian one or you can have you know

01:35:59 some atheist you know guy putting poison in your arms but the point is like we're you're just going

01:36:05 to be leadership and that's not to be you know to discount what i said earlier i don't literally

01:36:09 think there's going to be a problem but there's going to be power it's not whether but which

01:36:13 there's going to be political power it's going to be wielded and that's the problem with

01:36:17 conservatives is always well you know we uh we can't do that because then we'd be just like

01:36:22 you know the liberals what makes them bad what makes leftists bad is not their utilization of

01:36:28 power it's that they utilize it for evil that's what makes it bad and i think you're right i think

01:36:34 in in you know kind of fending off against the social justice gospel and wokeism and stuff we

01:36:41 we um we adopted a bad strategy we said it's it's uh gospel myopticism gospel centrality

01:36:48 yes and amen a thousand times but most guys today when they say they're gospel center they

01:36:52 mean gospel my optic it's gospel only ism and and and so so in order to to fend off you know

01:36:59 um this you know um the the wokeness and crt and intersectionality and social justice and all that

01:37:06 you know in neo-marxism we said we'll just preach the gospel faithfulness is just preaching the

01:37:11 gospel, and I've said it like this before, and I'll end it with this, and I'll give you the final

01:37:16 word, but Tim Keller's problem, in my assessment, was not his embrace of wanting to change New York

01:37:24 City, actually having a tangible impact on the culture and the arts and all this. He did that

01:37:30 three-minute video years and years ago about if we reached 10% Christians in New York, we'd have 0.92

01:37:35 a tipping point, and art would be more hopeful. And I remember that video. I thought it was so

01:37:39 good, I still think it's good. I don't have a problem with that. That's Tim and his influence

01:37:44 from Kuyper. But at the end of the day, and that's the all of life, every square inch.

01:37:47 But Tim's all of life sentiment that I think he got from Kuyper, that's not the problem.

01:37:52 The problem is that Doug Wilson, the difference between Tim and Doug Wilson, Doug Wilson is all

01:37:58 of Christ for all of life. They're both Kuyperian, Doug Wilson and Tim Keller. Doug Wilson is all of

01:38:03 Christ for all of life. Keller is some of Christ and some of Mark's for all of life. It's not

01:38:09 keller's embrace of abraham kuyper it's his embrace of carl marx um and so too my point is

01:38:14 the all of life factor whether you like kuyper or not still call it fruit of the gospel call it

01:38:19 practical obedience call it whatever you want but the life part the the tangible that the

01:38:24 anti-pietism that the the theology coming out of your hands and feet um that part was not the

01:38:31 problem of the social justice woke guys their problem was that uh what they were preaching is

01:38:37 their problem was not that they uh that they that they didn't preach enough gospel and they

01:38:41 preached too many works their problem is that they preached a perverted gospel with wicked works

01:38:47 with wicked works you know and so it's just so power isn't inherently evil use it rightly works

01:38:54 aren't bad faith without works is dead but it needs to be good works and who determines good

01:38:58 works you've said prudence a lot you're right i love that but i just i gotta say as the theonomy

01:39:02 me guy i um by what standard and and prudence ultimately it's i think there's prudence in how

01:39:09 to apply the standard yes the standard itself is not prudence the standard is we've got a book

01:39:15 we've got a playbook now it takes prudence though to know how to drop this down

01:39:19 2 000 years later over here with uh social media like you know what i mean how do you regulate you

01:39:25 know facebook and things like you know so it's going to take prudence in application um but the

01:39:30 good works themselves praise god he wrote a book and and we can use the book and uh so it's not

01:39:36 anti-works because we're avoiding legalism it's not anti-prosperity because we're avoiding

01:39:41 heresy and it's not anti-power because we want to be me it's no man i i think we just we combated

01:39:47 some of these all them are are liberal ideas we combated liberalism with um with loserism 0.98

01:39:54 And loserism, gosh darn it, turns out, loserism loses. 0.98

01:39:59 And I'm tired of losing. 0.98

01:40:01 All right, what do you think?

01:40:02 Will, go ahead and close this out, whatever your last thought is.

01:40:04 Yeah, well, I mean, I think, like, again, it's like, you know, no doubt people are going to criticize us, you know, when we say we're tired of losing.

01:40:11 and you know but they they there are those who think that the christian life is just meant to be

01:40:18 like one series of defeats after another until you know we we we make it to glory right and

01:40:26 you know again there may be some senses in which that's the case but we don't know what the hand

01:40:32 is that god is going to deal us right like we we should not we should have some humility you know

01:40:38 I really do think that I think that like assessing the situation that we're in currently in the United States of America or even globally to a certain degree and having the humility to say the system isn't working that great.

01:40:50 And let me present to you the evidence of of Dr. Rachel Levine and Leah Thomas, you know, Richard Levine and Thomas and, you know, an emperor ice cream cone.

01:41:04 And, you know, like and 70 million children slaughtered and, you know, and kids being injected on cross sex hormones and having irreversible mutilation being done to their bodies.

01:41:19 Not not to mention just the overall degradation of our life and our culture as we have embraced the the severing of faith and reason. 0.88

01:41:30 As we have said that, you know, the two, you know, the two horsemen, the two horsemen of the apocalypse of the enlightenment were autonomous reason and sexual liberation. And those those are the two horsemen who rule the day here, the United States of America. And it's it's hideous what has been wrought in the name of the enlightenment and classical liberalism for whatever good it might have done for us has clearly failed in substantial ways.

01:41:57 Now, maybe there are ways we can shore that back up that look differently, but essentially when it comes to the case for Christian nationalism, I honestly find it, Joel, I find it to be a humble posture of saying some things aren't working, what can we do better and differently in such a way that is coherent with Scripture, that passes that test, you know, take every thought captive, right?

01:42:19 So there might be, there will certainly be some elements that people propose under the banner of Christian nationalism that we must reject because it does not comport with scripture. But to say that everything is fine, it's not, you know, and to say that we should just sort of like, we should just, you know, hope things get better without picking up a sword and a shovel and doing some work ourselves.

01:42:41 it won't you know and so my my plea to baptists everywhere is you know to to you know beat your

01:42:48 plowshare into a sword and you know and come join us on the front lines and bring bring thoughts 0.75

01:42:54 bring suggestions um but bring serious critiques and bring you know bring scripture-based arguments

01:43:00 for your own positions if you if you want to give me the biblical case for classical liberalism

01:43:06 might be very interested in hearing that and um and and let's go like let's strive let's trust the

01:43:12 lord and fight for a better future for for the faith for our family and for our nation and then

01:43:19 trust the lord as the chips fall where they may right if if you know if if we don't become a

01:43:25 christian nation and we we become a chinese marxist nation and i end up in jail i'm going

01:43:30 to preach the gospel and tell people we should be a christian nation and i trust you'll do that with

01:43:34 me amen well said will thanks for coming on the show really appreciate it thanks brother thanks

01:43:40 for having me all right thank you guys for tuning in hope you guys enjoyed this episode and we will

01:43:45 continue to come out with new episodes every single week every sunday that's the full-length

01:43:49 sermon from covenant bible church every monday i fly solo and do some q a and every tuesday that's

01:43:54 our flagship show theology applied where we have renowned guests from all over the map and uh will

01:43:59 is uh is he's one of our favorites and he'll be back i'm sure uh hopefully in the near future so

01:44:04 thanks for tuning in. Can I be frank with you for just a second right here at the end? Look,

01:44:08 some of you guys, you're financially supporting this ministry. And from the bottom of my heart,

01:44:13 I say, thank you. I cannot thank you enough. However, some of you, you just, you can't afford

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01:44:26 Biden's ridiculous economy. Our nation and our totalitarian political elites lost their minds 0.99

01:44:35 over the last three years due to COVID. We have written checks that we simply cannot cash. It

01:44:43 doesn't matter if people change the definition of a recession. We are living in a recession

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01:44:55 You cannot support financially this ministry at this time, nor should you, but you could still

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`witch hunt`	Both words, anywhere in the episode.
`"witch hunt"`	The exact phrase.
`witch OR hunt`	Either word.
`"alpha male" -"high value"`	The first phrase, but not the second.
`(feminist OR feminism) AND (marriage OR divorce)`	Parentheses group alternatives.
`"decline civilization"~5`	Both words within 5 words of each other.

`misogyn*`	Any word starting with "misogyn": misogyny, misogynist, misogynistic…
`feminizm~1`	Words one letter off: catches typos and transcription errors.

`person:"Andrew Tate"`	Episodes where they host, guest, or are mentioned.
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The NXR Podcast - April 25, 2023

THEOLOGY APPLIED - Can A Baptist Be A Christian Nationalist？ w William Wolfe

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Transcript