The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - Christian Nationalism & The Chaos Of Female Leadership

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, real quick, before we get started, I have a small request.

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00:00:18.540 All right, welcome, welcome, welcome to another episode of Theology Applied.

00:00:21.860 I am your host, Pastor Joel Webbin with Right Response Ministries.

00:00:24.580 I'm excited about this episode because we have in this episode,

00:00:28.780 Stephen Wolfe. Stephen Wolfe is the author of just a very mild, meek book. This book is probably

00:00:36.760 what you would want to buy for a Christmas gift for your family members to go right along with

00:00:41.280 Dane Ortlund, Gentle and Lowly. It's really in the same vein as that book. It's the case

00:00:46.920 for Christian nationalism. Obviously, I'm being facetious. This book, what I've read so far, 0.92

00:00:52.320 I just got an advanced reader copy a couple of days ago from recording this episode. But

00:00:56.260 by the time we launch it, I think the book should be public. November 1st is when it's airing.

00:01:00.740 And what I've read so far is fantastic. He's not pulling any punches. Stephen is,

00:01:05.520 he's not just talking about the theory or the idea of Christian nationalism in some abstract

00:01:10.920 ivory tower, you know, intellectual sense, but he's actually down to earth and saying,

00:01:16.940 no, we can do this guys. If we just had the resolve to trust the Lord and read his word

00:01:23.280 and be obedient in all of life. If we just had the will to honor God and love him and love our

00:01:29.680 fellow man, we could do this whole Christian nationalism thing. We could have a nation that

00:01:33.680 honors God and it would be a nation that's prosperous, a nation that's blessed. But

00:01:37.520 one of the things we talk about the interview is that sadly, it seems as though at this current

00:01:42.620 juncture that America simply has a will to die. We've just lost the will to live. Whether it's

00:01:51.160 in our altruism or whatever it might be, the West in general, European countries, it's almost like

00:01:56.640 the Western civilization just is suicidal out of guilt, out of apathy, out of empathy,

00:02:06.700 all these different misguided feelings. But we just seem to have lost the will to live.

00:02:13.400 And that's what Stephen's trying to address is, no guys, let's rally the troops. We should live

00:02:18.400 and that's not selfish. There is a way to do what is good for our nation that pleases the Lord

00:02:23.520 and is good for all people by starting in our affections, in our love right here at home. So

00:02:29.540 tune into this episode. It's a real treat. Oh, hi. I didn't see you there. Thanks for sticking

00:02:35.260 around. I've got an important announcement to make. That's the Theonomy and Postmillennialism

00:02:39.820 Conference. 2023, May 5th, 6th, and 7th, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, Theonomy and Postmillennialism.

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00:03:01.240 Perhaps you've heard of him.

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00:03:29.800 Again, that's rightresponseconference.com.

00:03:33.480 God bless.

00:03:34.740 Applying God's word to every aspect of life.

00:03:38.140 This is Theology Applied.

00:03:44.580 All right, welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied.

00:03:48.680 I'm your host, Pastor Joel Webbin with Right Response Ministries.

00:03:51.380 And in this episode, I'm very privileged to have joining me Stephen Wolfe.

00:03:55.500 Stephen Wolfe, thank you for joining us on the show.

00:03:59.080 Yeah, thanks for having me.

00:04:00.300 All right, well, we're going to go ahead and dive in.

00:04:01.880 So for those of you who've been living underneath a rock, you may not be aware,

00:04:04.820 but for everybody else, you've probably seen this in the Twitterverse.

00:04:08.480 This is Stephen's brand new book that's going to be coming out to the public on November 1st.

00:04:13.220 Is that right, Stephen?

00:04:14.580 Yes.

00:04:15.220 So I've got one of the advanced reader copies, Canon Plus, was kind enough to send me one,

00:04:22.600 or I guess just Canon, Canon Plus being the app, but sent me a copy.

00:04:26.040 And so I'm starting to dive into it.

00:04:27.940 And I wanted to just talk about this conversation of Christian nationalism.

00:04:32.600 So I'll start with this.

00:04:33.460 What inspired you to write?

00:04:35.100 What made you think, hey, we need a book about Christian nationalism?

00:04:40.560 Yeah, I mean, it was a term of derision.

00:04:43.040 I mean, it actually was used in the 19th century, a little bit in the civil rights era.

00:04:51.120 It's been used by kind of black Christians, mainly heretical ones, but it was used also in the UK.

00:04:58.100 It was used by some Chinese Christians.

00:05:03.100 But recently, yeah, it was a term of derision.

00:05:05.540 But I think our conservative impulse is to be accused of something and then instantly say, I'm not that.

00:05:11.880 You know, so we go through a kind of series of these like disclaimers and disavowals and all that. 0.93

00:05:18.520 But once we started being accused of Christian nationalism, the more I thought about it was, well, this is precisely actually what I am.

00:05:26.380 I am a Christian, love my nation, and I'm nationalist.

00:05:32.360 So what does it mean to bring all those together?

00:05:34.680 And so that's that was my as you know, I initially started thinking about this more and more and I realized, you know what, actually what Christians need today, particularly in the West, is we need a sort of Christian nationalist approach because nationalism tends to emphasize national will.

00:05:54.900 that's kind of historically uh just in 19th century and another thing it just had this

00:06:00.140 emphasis on the kind of national will um kind of a will to live and it seems to me that the

00:06:05.840 the west is in a position where it's kind of has a will to die right uh westerners have this sort

00:06:11.900 of self-hating self-loathing malaise that it leads them to want to kind of implode and commit self

00:06:17.940 suicide you know national suicide uh so this i think the nationalism i is a i think a response

00:06:26.480 a principled response to both the our heritage as protestants but also it's good for the moment

00:06:33.040 and that moment is to kind of reinvigorate revitalize uh our our will to live um and and

00:06:40.220 not just will to live in a you know to have just have have food and and shelter but a will to

00:06:46.720 actually order our lives and our society towards the highest things. So eternal good. And that's

00:06:53.720 what inspired me. And that's why I think the book, even though there's a lot in there that's old,

00:06:58.960 I think it's kind of unique in the approach. Yeah, great. I like the way that Wilson put it

00:07:05.920 on one of his blogs, but just basically saying we kind of have six choices, three categories and

00:07:12.760 in two subcategories underneath each of the main three headers that, you know, we can be tribalist,

00:07:17.800 we can be nationalist, we can be globalist. And we don't want to be globalist because for one,

00:07:22.660 just biblically, the Bible speaks of distinct nations. The nations are Christ's inheritance.

00:07:27.120 The Bible emphasizes sovereign nations and distinctions between them. And then tribalism

00:07:32.580 may sound good. Localism is a good thing. We should care about our county, you know, and the 0.88

00:07:37.760 place that God has put us most immediately in working out from that. But that doesn't really

00:07:42.420 work as a form of government. Tribes are just, you know, you exist and maybe it's peaceful for

00:07:47.580 six months and then you get taken over by another tribe. And so it just doesn't seem to work. And so

00:07:51.900 that leaves us with this nationalism piece. And then the question is really, do we want to be a

00:07:55.740 pagan? Do we want pagan nationalism, you know, secular humanistic nationalism or Christian? So

00:08:00.580 it's the six categories mean, you know, secular tribalism versus, you know, Christian tribalism,

00:08:06.300 secular globalism, Christian globalism, and then secular nationalism versus Christian nationalism.

00:08:13.240 It seems like as a nation, we've been heading towards certainly secularism for quite a while

00:08:18.480 now, but then more recently, kind of secular globalism. And that doesn't seem like it's

00:08:24.480 panning out well. And so it seems like a return to a focus on nations, individual sovereign,

00:08:31.000 distinct nations and um patriotism and those kinds of things and then and then looking to god um as

00:08:37.520 the you know the question is by what standard um how do nations function and what is is it just the

00:08:43.260 will of the people is demas god or is or is there a theos a god above the state and um and so yeah

00:08:50.100 christian nationalism is you know it's not the term that necessarily we would have chosen for

00:08:54.400 ourselves. It is a pejorative. But Puritan was a pejorative of sorts. And there's been many times

00:09:02.140 when faithful Christians over the centuries throughout church history have been labeled

00:09:05.180 something by the opposition, but it worked. And they worked with the term because it actually

00:09:11.580 had biblical merit. And so I think that's what you and many other guys are doing. And so

00:09:15.840 any thoughts on that before I move on into some more questions?

00:09:20.240 well i you know i i would just say that uh i i'm not i'm not just taking the term because

00:09:28.180 as a way to troll you know the uh i'm not saying implied this but i actually think it's a good

00:09:34.680 good term for a moment and so in a way i'm like grateful for the people who came up with it

00:09:39.400 thinking that it was going to be as a pejorative it's going to be down these christians are called

00:09:43.040 christian nationalists i mean in a way i'm thankful because i think it's just a it is the

00:09:48.440 right term for the moment and i mean i think it's the right term for for all moments but i think in

00:09:54.180 particular this one the the things that are emphasized in nationalism uh particularly that

00:10:00.040 that sense of drive that will that's saying we are going to seek and after our good we're going to

00:10:05.200 act we're going to have resolve that that is what is kind of inherent to this the emphasis of the

00:10:10.760 term nationalism and to say it's christian national to say that we're not only going to

00:10:14.800 be concerned about, you know, our mash and our, you know, our temporal life, but also for our

00:10:21.600 eternal life as well. And so we're going to order ourselves to that. So I think it's just a good

00:10:27.660 term. Yeah. Yeah. Amen. All right. So one of the quotes that you highlighted, I believe, this was

00:10:34.640 in a chapter, I believe, chapter six, it says, what laws can and cannot do, civil law. The very

00:10:43.600 first citation that you have is the laws and liberties of Massachusetts, 1647. I just want

00:10:50.500 to read that and then let you comment on it. I just thought it was profound and really helpful.

00:10:54.100 It says, for when the authority is of God and that in a way of the ordinance, Romans 13, 1,

00:11:01.500 and when the administration of it is according to deductions and rules gathered from the word of God

00:11:09.220 and the clear light of nature in civil nations, surely there is no human law that tendeth to the

00:11:16.640 common good according to those principles, but what is immediately a law of God, and that in

00:11:23.520 way of an ordinance, which all are to submit unto, and that for conscience sake, Romans 13.5.

00:11:33.180 What are your thoughts on that? It seems like that kind of set the tone for this chapter,

00:11:37.480 and uh and you worked from that quote well i mean it's essentially a summary of standard uh reformed

00:11:44.760 uh i mean i mean it's also tomista i mean it's just it's just a christian it's a classical

00:11:50.340 christian conception of the law which just kind of shows you that even the puritans had the same

00:11:56.280 kind of conception of law as just um as christians probably did um but yeah that basically summarizes

00:12:02.360 that chapter uh you know usually you will kind of kind of want a pithy quote in the front right i

00:12:06.900 thought well you know what i'll just throw in one of these hard to read uh 17th century quotes

00:12:11.360 that's a long one but but yeah i mean that that is it's saying that that civil law uh civil law

00:12:18.540 is something that binds our conscience to action because uh because it's rooted in the the law of

00:12:25.080 god or the natural law the moral law of god and so this means that a magistrate who says do this

00:12:32.160 or don't do that he he can only say that uh he can only actually command you that and you're only

00:12:37.840 you're compelled to obey only if that command is uh is derived from god's law right and in this

00:12:47.040 sense in this sense a just law is as an ordinance of god it's like god it's essentially god telling

00:12:52.340 you to do something right though it's mediated through the determination of a civil magistrate

00:12:57.640 and you would say with that that like all human authority is delegated authority it's you know

00:13:03.380 all like there's no such thing as inherent human authority it's all vested from from gone whether

00:13:08.740 it be familiar yeah so we so none of us have a like a natural uh power to command our fellow

00:13:16.320 man to do something so uh yeah we we can't and we can come i guess i suppose we command him not to

00:13:23.600 you know, commit some moral offense against us. But we can't say, hey, you got to do this,

00:13:27.740 you got to drive on the side of the road, you got to, you know, we don't have that power

00:13:30.700 inherently, that has to be something God, in a sense, grants someone to then serve as a sort

00:13:41.180 of mediator of civil law. So that this mediator, which, you know, has been called a magistrate,

00:13:46.740 or prince, or whatever, you can call them just a civil government or legislative authority,

00:13:51.340 can legislate law

00:13:53.860 that says do this and do that

00:13:55.880 but only because it's derived from God

00:13:57.840 himself

00:13:58.360 so in this sense it's like

00:14:01.000 a just body of law

00:14:03.260 is in a way

00:14:05.680 divine law

00:14:06.700 even though we wanted separate categories

00:14:09.140 but it's something

00:14:10.400 on that basis we ought to do

00:14:12.600 in obedience to God

00:14:13.960 I wish that a lot of pastors had that understanding

00:14:17.540 two and a half years ago when COVID hit

00:14:19.780 You know, and I think, you know, so many misuses when it comes to Romans chapter 13.

00:14:25.360 You know, a lot of people would read Romans chapter 13, would you have no fear of the

00:14:29.760 one who rules over you, then do what he says.

00:14:33.560 But that's not what the text says.

00:14:34.940 It says, do what is good. 0.61

00:14:36.380 And the question, I think that that begs for the Christian is good according to who?

00:14:41.560 Good as defined by what?

00:14:44.060 Is it do what is good?

00:14:46.380 Simply meaning do what this individual human civil authority says,

00:14:50.340 or is it do something that is transcendently good?

00:14:54.720 Do you have any thoughts on that?

00:14:56.820 Well, I mean, you ought to do what a civil authority says.

00:15:01.800 But with this understanding, the power that they have to command,

00:15:07.160 truly, is a power that they can only command actually what is good for you.

00:15:13.120 right and that's and that's and what this means then is that if they can if there's a command

00:15:18.960 that is just then it's a it's a way it's in a sort of like mediated ordinance of god you ought to do

00:15:25.680 it um and and they're then in that sense they're they're actually acting as like god's deputy in

00:15:30.960 a way exactly but the moment they command what is unjust they no longer serve as god's deputy but

00:15:38.320 as just the man commanding you because again the power that's invested with these people

00:15:42.840 is only for good if it's for evil then they're actually not commanding with that power itself

00:15:48.720 and this is why this is why it's you can with good principle disobey it unjust

00:15:53.440 civil command or civil law is it's really no law at all and that's because law can law is the

00:16:00.480 creation of legitimate power and power is only for good um so so yeah again if it's an unjust law

00:16:07.140 you're not disobeying the magistrate you're just you're disobeying disobeying a man who's telling

00:16:11.740 you to do something unjust right that that's a really important distinction um though there is

00:16:17.240 a sense in which uh like with christ you know like christ says that you know someone takes your tunic

00:16:24.160 and then or someone has to go for a mile there's a sense in which an unjust law you could obey it

00:16:28.280 for some other reason and and part of that you know part of his command about you know obeying

00:16:33.900 of sort of injustice but then there's a very complicated history with that i'd recommend

00:16:38.460 reading calvin on it or augustine um so you're not actually bound to do whatever is unjust based

00:16:43.900 upon those verses but it could be a prudential uh way to um to demonstrate maybe uh maybe your faith

00:16:51.820 or or to for whatever reason so right but but according to actual principles of law and power

00:16:58.300 uh an unjust law is no law at all and therefore does not bind your conscience to action

00:17:02.460 yeah yeah you wrote um on page 249 unjust laws are not laws properly speaking and so they do

00:17:09.580 not bind the conscience to obedience and i would say yes and amen it reminds me of john knox that

00:17:14.160 you know uh resistance to tyranny is obedience to god and i think you're right in terms of

00:17:19.140 the category of prudence um when a law is unjust according to god's um higher universal law then

00:17:26.020 we're we're not required we're not obligated morally to obey it but there may be times that

00:17:31.740 we may choose within our conscience to obey something that doesn't directly. It's a commandment

00:17:38.100 that doesn't forbid what God commands or command what God forbids. It's still not just, but it's

00:17:46.160 something that we could actually acquiesce to without sinning against God's law, and we may

00:17:51.100 choose at certain times within prudence which hills we're going to die on, which fights we're

00:17:56.980 going to fight. I personally feel like you can make a fairly strong argument from the scripture

00:18:01.460 that um that any taxation uh that rivals the tithe so 10 or higher which we're way past that

00:18:07.500 point um is unjust uh but then the question is um does do we want to counsel every single christian

00:18:14.800 um to pursue tax evasion and i would say no i don't think that's probably the fight that we

00:18:19.740 need to fight um i think i think there are you know there are other battles that that we should

00:18:24.440 we should prioritize and so anyways i just i thought that that was a really good point of

00:18:28.660 just saying that unjust laws are not actually laws. And so you're, it's not that you're

00:18:33.740 disobeying, you're not disobeying the civil magistrate as he functions as a God's deacon,

00:18:40.100 God's servant. You're just, you're disobeying a rogue individual man who is, who is, yeah,

00:18:47.280 he's, he's at that moment, he's gone rogue. He's, he's operating outside of the authority

00:18:51.420 that God's vested within him. Any more thoughts on that?

00:18:54.260 well so in the military uh that the the state empowers officers with the ability to command

00:19:03.720 anything that is like uh you know moral ethical um yeah moral legal ethical is you know what they

00:19:11.440 say uh and so that means that that if you're a soldier and you're and uh your uh commanding

00:19:16.880 officer says do this and it's moral legal ethical then go do it that's what you have to do uh and

00:19:22.980 they have the power to do that and you have the you have the duty to obey but if the officer

00:19:28.300 commands something that is not legal or it's unethical it's immoral well then he's exceeded

00:19:33.820 his power uh and and in fact as you as a soldier you are obligated not to obey uh that that officer

00:19:41.040 because for those reasons and and disobeying him you're disobeying him not as he is an officer but

00:19:47.280 just as he is a guy telling you something unjust so you're not i mean he is like he in that moment

00:19:52.660 he has the appearance of officership, but he's actually commanding you just as a man

00:19:55.980 to do what's unjust. So it's the same kind of thing. And, and yeah, it's the same type

00:20:02.000 of thing for you in relation to civil magistrates.

00:20:05.340 Right. And your disobedience to that individual really is, it's, it's flowing out of your

00:20:10.340 obedience to a higher authority. So, you know, so that if you have, you know, a lieutenant

00:20:16.500 who's given you, you know, a certain set of orders that are objectively immoral, your

00:20:23.240 disobedience to that lieutenant is actually reflective of your commitment and obedience

00:20:28.120 to the authority above him, that the moment they find out what this guy is doing, they're

00:20:34.420 going to thank you for it.

00:20:35.480 So, you know, within Romans 13 and, you know, submission to the civil magistrate and these

00:20:40.760 kinds of things, part of that, you have to understand that in light of God and his transcendent

00:20:46.240 authority, but you also have to understand that within the nation that you live in and

00:20:51.000 within the parameters of your civil magistrate and how it functions.

00:20:54.720 And we have multiple levels of civil authorities in our nation, and our highest authority in

00:21:03.580 our nation, civil authority, is not a human official by design, but rather a document.

00:21:08.400 There are times where you may be resisting the tyranny of one individual, lower level

00:21:15.460 individual. And it's not just disobedience, but your disobedience with that person is actually

00:21:20.240 reflective of your obedience towards a higher authority. So the Christian is never acting in 0.96

00:21:24.880 rebellion. The Christian is always supposed to be acting in submission to true God-given authority 0.78

00:21:34.020 and able to discern between good and evil and when certain human authorities are out of line.

00:21:40.420 Yeah. Would you agree with that? Yeah. Yeah. I think it's all right. Yeah.

00:21:43.880 um it's all right it's it's not great but we'll take it um all right so let me ask you another

00:21:51.000 question so you talked to um already just so far in our conversation about natural law and i just

00:21:57.580 want to pick your brain on on that um when when you're talking about christian nationalism and

00:22:03.640 and natural law and these kinds of things um if we're talking about moral law being being the

00:22:10.840 the Decalogue, the Ten Commandments, do you see natural law as distinct? Do you see that as

00:22:16.560 simply the second table of the Decalogue? Or do you see that as all Ten Commandments falling

00:22:22.100 within the parameters of natural law? How would you define natural law? Because different guys

00:22:26.680 have, we use that phrase a lot, natural law, but there are different ideas of what natural law is.

00:22:32.640 Yeah, well, I mean, if anyone's saying that the natural law is only the second table,

00:22:38.800 then that is the extremely novel position in fact i don't know anyone who's ever said that

00:22:44.700 and if someone's saying it now then then they're they are quite the innovator so no one's ever

00:22:50.940 said that uh calvin didn't say it aquinas didn't say it no one i mean uh so it'd be bizarre um i

00:22:58.780 and to to say that it would be pretty weird uh because the first table simply acknowledges

00:23:04.740 what's what what's owed to god and uh so yeah it would be and in fact it would kind of approach a

00:23:11.740 sort of roman catholic position in a way um but i mean we don't have to go there but it was just

00:23:17.120 the the idea of natural law is that you have these duties to god and to fellow man and uh those

00:23:23.200 duties are are summarized and inscripturated as in as the decalogue and uh the the first table

00:23:30.460 is the first because it's not only the most obviously your duty to god is first but also

00:23:35.920 that your duty to man flows from your duties to god uh so there's a sort of logical progression

00:23:41.180 uh the first first commandment essentially in a positive sense says worship only you know only

00:23:46.380 through god and it flows from from there that you ought to you know honor your father and mother and

00:23:53.100 and and uh not murder which positively means support the life of the well-being of those

00:23:58.340 around you so i mean there's just uh yeah and so the natural law can be defined as the the rule or

00:24:06.820 standard by which man uh will achieve his natural end and that natural end is his is his happiness

00:24:14.600 so obedience to god leads to leads to happiness or you can say it is happiness and god's uh man's

00:24:20.340 natural end is a sense of more than earthly it's heavenly as well so obedience to god in the natural

00:24:25.500 law uh would would in a way um point to i mean this kind of getting into like really technical

00:24:32.040 uh theology but in a way that what's embedded in natural law is this this this sort of higher life

00:24:38.600 this this sense of that that earth is not uh was was never meant to be your only uh place but you're

00:24:47.060 actually meant for something higher uh and and the natural law in a way of of obeying it was going to

00:24:53.080 be the way to achieve that life that's originally for adam but i mean i think just generally speaking

00:24:58.900 it's a standard by which man achieves his his end so which yeah okay um that makes any sense

00:25:07.700 yeah no that makes sense so you know like what i always teach as a local pastor uh with my

00:25:13.260 congregation you know in just in our liturgy we we have a reading of god's law where we read

00:25:17.460 Exodus chapter 20, all 10 commandments. And we have a corporate confession of sin and an assurance

00:25:23.680 of pardon and a confession of faith. And one of the things I always say is I'm teaching on the

00:25:28.200 law of God because we want to preach both law and gospel. And one of my concerns is that much of the

00:25:34.580 church I think today is antinomian, at least in the technical sense of a rejection of the third

00:25:40.000 use of God's law. If there is any preaching of God's law, it's in the gospel-centered, centered

00:25:44.140 gospel gospel centered tribe that's you know where it's just it's only the first use of the

00:25:48.240 law here's god's commands here's the the imperative here's how you failed um thank god for jesus he

00:25:53.780 fulfilled it and um don't you love jesus and so yeah i do love jesus and the law it is um um the

00:26:00.620 law functions in its first use it drives us the law no man will be saved by works as done unto the

00:26:05.460 law but the law does reveal uh the holiness of god the sinfulness of man and the need for a savior

00:26:10.180 and it drives us to Christ who can save.

00:26:13.120 But the law also functions as a light unto our feet.

00:26:15.720 David delighted in the law of God.

00:26:17.460 It was something that he loved

00:26:19.820 and it leads towards blessing.

00:26:22.200 And I think there's so much of a fear,

00:26:23.760 maybe an overreaction to the prosperity gospel

00:26:26.000 and what we might deem as legalism

00:26:28.580 and these kinds of things that we,

00:26:30.640 I think there's a lot of Christians,

00:26:32.440 what I'm getting at is,

00:26:33.200 I think there's a lot of Christians

00:26:34.160 that don't even want to mention the law of God,

00:26:36.640 the first or the second table in its third use

00:26:39.240 as a light unto our feet, as a way to live, not a way to salvation, to earn salvation,

00:26:43.920 but a way from salvation in gratitude for the free grace that we have through faith in Jesus

00:26:48.520 Christ. And so I think that right now, the case that you're making and the case that other guys

00:26:54.920 are making, there seems to be kind of this rising movement of sorts. And I think there's a lot that's

00:27:00.780 going to need to get ironed out. But I guess what I'm saying is to make a case that states,

00:27:06.420 that nations at the civil level should be lawful according to God's law, natural law, moral law.

00:27:15.140 I'm coming off of the past few years as a local pastor, and I don't even think churches

00:27:19.280 are convinced of that. Not that states should be that way, but that churches should even preach

00:27:24.420 the law of God in its third use as a light unto our path. Have you experienced that? I feel like

00:27:30.940 the culture because the church culture and then just the culture at large is is very afraid of

00:27:36.860 legalism very antinomian very lawless and uh and and in addition to that i think very um not just

00:27:43.700 the antinomian piece but that you know just i don't know what are your thoughts on that well

00:27:49.120 i mean yeah i think that we we have failed to distinguish nature and grace and uh we've allowed

00:27:55.280 grace to essentially destroy nature to kind of invade uh that that natural i think i think we

00:28:02.520 have i think man has a natural drive for a sort of dominion um to be assertive in the world and

00:28:10.160 i think we've allowed grace to make us very passive i think there's there's also some

00:28:15.600 feminization the church going on with this as well but um i but there is a sense in which

00:28:20.260 the gospel has become a means for us to have kind of this uh like uh sort of cognitive well-being

00:28:26.860 or psychological well-being um while just being you know fat on the couch watching marvel movies

00:28:32.140 you know so that's kind of um so instead of actually being uh and um the gospel being

00:28:37.420 something that restores us to activity to doing things to organizing um or just to activity

00:28:44.460 generally to be assertive and and demeaning oriented we've allowed it to be the opposite

00:28:48.860 through grace kind of destroying nature and so i think that when we understand the gospel i mean

00:28:54.360 we can separate justification sanctification um justification is a sort of is like your

00:28:59.820 is in a way your title to eternal life so the merit the merit of christ you can kind of claim

00:29:06.880 for yourself a title to eternal life but sanctification involves is a sort of restoration

00:29:13.720 so it's adam was was was given these gifts and these gifts empowered him to exercise be a very

00:29:21.160 active person to exercise dominion in the world under god okay so that means as i argue in one

00:29:27.600 chapter is it basically means that there'd be nations there would spread have distinct nations

00:29:31.680 and all that but but the point i'm getting here is that he was empowered to with sets of gifts

00:29:37.440 with his the completeness of his gifts to to achieve that end because of course that was part

00:29:41.780 of his the covenantal conditions was him do that so he had to have the power to do it um in the

00:29:46.520 fall adam lost not not all his gifts he didn't lose ability to kind of reason according to

00:29:52.200 principles and he'd lose his sight and strive to have some kind of society and community

00:29:56.160 he did lose this uh one his ability to achieve heavenly uh good uh he adopted vicious habits

00:30:03.800 and and um so he's unable to fully uh seek dominion under god though he still had to drive

00:30:10.920 obviously, because you see men have done virtuous things in ways, but in the actual restoration,

00:30:20.240 in sanctification, what you might call a definitive sanctification, we've gone from a sort of total

00:30:25.340 depravity to a total sanctification, by which I do not mean that we've become perfected in every

00:30:31.160 practical way, but that we've been re-equipped in a way. We've been re-equipped with the sort

00:30:35.980 of things Adam had, which includes this desire for heavenly life, but also the gifts pertaining

00:30:42.760 to his work in dominion under God. And so these were natural, and in a way they're supernaturally

00:30:51.300 kind of grafted in, but they're the same in substance, the same sort of things that Adam

00:30:56.060 had to achieve his end. So I think part of sanctification, part of kind of working out

00:31:01.200 your salvation in the sanctifying the sanctification sense is having this natural drive

00:31:07.140 for to complete the sort of things adam would have done though not for not to achieve eternal life

00:31:14.940 but as a matter of just being a fully human being so that is achieving what you ought to have done

00:31:21.780 as a natural human being not not not so much as like a being of grace it's not a command of grace

00:31:28.480 to exercise dominion it's a restoration of grace that you can naturally do it uh and so i so i i

00:31:34.600 think that the the what's antinomian to my sense is not not just that that we don't put you know

00:31:41.220 that we don't have kind of civil law doesn't reflect on natural law uh but that we don't have

00:31:47.480 that that spirit meaning like the spirit for action that we should have given our sanctification

00:31:54.820 in Christ. And that should give us this active, activity-oriented, dominion-oriented life

00:32:03.120 with others to kind of realize on earth these institutions and communities that are under God.

00:32:16.840 So what does this mean practically? This means that there ought to be Christian schools,

00:32:21.540 there ought to be christian governments or out to be christian magistrates you know christian

00:32:26.660 civil societies and that sort of thing so that that's kind of how i go from yeah that's why i

00:32:33.300 think like the importance of sanctification and and also just natural law uh we we are natural

00:32:38.740 beings and we have natural drives and we ought to order those properly which means activity in the

00:32:46.020 world to place the things of the world under god yeah um so we talked a little bit about you know

00:32:53.560 what is your reason for writing the book why did you write it let me ask you now um not why did

00:32:59.600 you write the book but what are you hoping the book will do yeah i mean i mentioned this earlier

00:33:06.320 i think i hope um several things one i hope that for the individual men yeah i wrote the book i

00:33:13.720 I mean, if someone reads it, they'd probably know this.

00:33:16.660 I wrote the book for men in mind.

00:33:19.200 It's not a self-help book.

00:33:20.780 It's more of an exhortation, I guess.

00:33:23.320 And that would be to realize that your masculinity,

00:33:28.440 the things of power that drive to exercise dominion

00:33:34.300 is actually true and good and not destroyed.

00:33:36.340 It's natural and it's not destroyed by nature.

00:33:38.860 So that's one thing, not just on the individual level.

00:33:41.140 But on the broader level, it's about realizing that you're a people and you have a place.

00:33:49.720 And if you're Christian, you want that to be a Christian place.

00:33:54.340 And in order for that to happen, it's not a matter of reading the times, you know, reading the signs and talking about eschatology all the time and saying like that post-mill.

00:34:07.200 People used to do that online.

00:34:08.540 you know it's not it's about no you have to do it like you like you know you people have to do it

00:34:14.260 it's not just like bringing bringing about stuff into existence in reality to make christian

00:34:20.220 institutions public institutions it's not just simply it's not simply divine providence it's you

00:34:27.100 actually acting in the world to do it it's like a synergistic thing it's not monergistic it's just

00:34:31.240 it's just like sanctification is something you have to like you have to act you have you have

00:34:36.640 a you have a peace in this the same is true when you do political theology like if you're post

00:34:41.860 millennial i know not not all post-millennials think this way but but there can be this tendency

00:34:47.100 of thinking oh that that you know it's prophesied it'll come like i believe this will come no but

00:34:52.560 if it does you're you got to do it so that that's part of the thing is not like we have to have the

00:34:58.260 will for it to happen it's not gonna if we don't will it into existence it's not going to happen

00:35:02.380 because it's necessary for man to actually act for it to happen.

00:35:06.920 So that's kind of what I – that's why I emphasize the will throughout the book.

00:35:11.740 Yeah.

00:35:12.660 Yeah, that's great.

00:35:14.720 In the epilogue, let's talk about that for a moment. 0.99

00:35:18.560 One of your portions in the epilogue talks about being ruled by women, 0.74

00:35:23.500 which I completely agree with you.

00:35:25.440 I've said this on my show before, so I don't know, so that you're not nervous.

00:35:28.960 I'll show my hand ahead of time and let you know where I'm at.

00:35:31.000 But I've mentioned multiple times on our podcast that I think few things have caused more suffering than women's suffrage.

00:35:39.700 So I think that men should vote.

00:35:45.840 And so that's my position with that.

00:35:48.200 I don't think that that's, you know, there's any problem with that. 0.81

00:35:50.640 But I do think that it's extraordinary that we really do live in a society where even just the implicit laws, right, the cultural laws that aren't even civil laws, but just cultural guidelines and directives are, they're all feminine.

00:36:08.500 So anytime a man tries to take initiative and tries to actually carry out what God has called him to, taking dominion in his various arenas of life and the responsibilities that God has given to him as a husband, as a father, in his vocation, in his local church, in his local town.

00:36:27.560 Maybe he runs for city council and these kinds of things.

00:36:31.780 A lot of times men just get blasted for being misogynist or being, this is toxic masculinity.

00:36:38.520 This is aggressive.

00:36:40.600 And then, you know, we have any book within Christianity, you know, that sells really well and that, you know, people are like, oh, this was so good.

00:36:50.580 It always focuses on, you know, Jesus, meek and mild, you know, gentle and lowly. 0.98

00:36:57.560 You know, Jesus, you know, it's the most feminine qualities that you could imagine. 0.75

00:37:04.400 And those, I'm not saying those are objectively feminine qualities.

00:37:07.240 Jesus is meek and mild, and Jesus was and is a man.

00:37:12.460 But that's not the only, that's not the whole of Jesus and his attributes and who he is.

00:37:18.700 And so anyways, can you talk a little bit, why did you include that in the epilogue?

00:37:23.300 And what are you trying to get across to the reader?

00:37:25.480 yeah so i mean i when i wrote this book it's not just like an academic exercise it's not just

00:37:32.040 trying to be precise for my fellow academics or you know whatever high-brow thinkers

00:37:37.820 i actually want it to happen uh and i i mean people might be surprised when they read the

00:37:45.960 epilogue what's in there but what's in there is just again it's mainly written for men and it's

00:37:52.340 saying it like what what's going to what's going to prevent us from being christian nationalists

00:37:59.180 well what's to bring i mean to bring it in a christian nation that follows kind of principles

00:38:03.680 of christian nationalism and i think one of it is going to be i don't think it could happen when

00:38:08.800 women are generally kind of in charge and and rule things that's and that's because women tend not to

00:38:14.320 they tend to have they have they're empathetic uh they tend to be more inclusive and men tend 0.95

00:38:21.600 to be more exclusive uh and they they they tend to yeah so i there's there's these there's these

00:38:30.360 different traits that you see between uh the sexes and in order to have a christian nation

00:38:37.040 where some some uh where blasphemy is punished by someone who seems well-meaning and nice and

00:38:43.800 smiles big you're gonna have to have a guy who says no you're going to jail i mean or whatever

00:38:48.460 it is you're fine them i mean because yeah i'm all for blasphemy laws by the way um if if you're

00:38:53.200 going to suppress atheism i mean there might be some very nice guy has a big smile loves atheism

00:38:58.320 like no atheism is crushed uh it's not going to be tolerated um you you have to have this kind of

00:39:05.400 firm hand where it says you just say no we're not going to do this and uh and what i mean there's 0.91

00:39:12.500 study after study coming out today about women-dominated fields in academia where that 1.00

00:39:19.340 the sort of traits you see coming out of those departments are the exact opposite of that of 0.55

00:39:26.120 sort of assertive saying kind of saying no to these things that are going to be damaging

00:39:33.780 and I so I think that there's what I call kind of a gynocracy which is a term that I didn't make up

00:39:42.180 it's been around uh but one of the one of the things that you see is this because of empathy

00:39:50.280 uh within within gynocracies uh you have this very strong egalitarian appeal uh egalitarian

00:40:01.360 like a following a very egalitarian principle and what happens then within these groups is

00:40:06.300 everything becomes very institutionalized very proceduralized

00:40:11.440 uh a lot of times the the men who are very assertive and agonistic who want to actually

00:40:17.440 compete with one another um kind of are suppressed and everything has to be extremely cooperative

00:40:23.640 and equality driven and in the end you don't actually have the naturally superior people

00:40:30.400 arise to the top and the the benefit of like a masculine leadership uh to my mind is that

00:40:37.120 men can compete aggressively with one another and they can debate and they can fight each other

00:40:43.680 and they in a way can self-sort into hierarchies through this activity so like on the playground

00:40:50.780 i mean growing up you can see in the playground different people different guys tend to kind of

00:40:55.900 lead the pack right and sometimes there was conflict but it eventually everyone kind of

00:41:00.660 sorted out where they were in this hierarchy and everyone figured out what they did well and what

00:41:05.100 they what they you know how they relate to everyone else and everyone in in general was was kind of

00:41:10.180 fine with that uh with some some problems at times but uh what like with gynecratic uh system

00:41:17.300 that sort of thing cannot happen so you get you get a lot of mediocrity um and it suppresses a

00:41:23.800 lot of those kind of masculine virtues that can really inspire greatness so that's one thing but

00:41:30.500 i think just just just broadly speaking you're if you have a very kind of feminine led institutions

00:41:37.020 you can't have christian nationalism because you're going to have a sort of empathy run amok

00:41:42.600 you're going to have untethered empathy and i think i mean i'm bashing women here a lot but

00:41:48.320 i'm just saying that women are essential to dominion they're essential to the work we have

00:41:54.960 in this world uh but the the excesses of empathy can actually destroy societies yeah i can create 1.00

00:42:03.660 these it can create these contradictions so who supports homosexuality the most tends to be women 0.88

00:42:10.220 who supports transgender kids uh you know transitioning all that and be that insanity 0.81

00:42:15.200 tends to be women who supports uh uh the the um often like criminals on on the streets and want 0.82

00:42:23.360 lower lower crime sentences uh uh more more prosecutor prosecutorial discretion tends to be

00:42:30.120 women and and who is this well i mean think one of the most reliable voting blocks for democrats 1.00

00:42:35.280 is actually college educated white women right uh and so you see these kind of like these i call 0.99

00:42:42.140 them gynocratic contradictions where like an untethered empathy when it becomes realized in

00:42:48.660 policy can actually literally destroy not uh not only destroy societies but it comes back and harms 0.99

00:42:54.740 women as well i mean just see that the the in sports women can train their entire teenage their

00:43:01.500 their young lives for to compete in some sport and then they're beat by this mediocre guy who

00:43:07.100 claims to be a girl so anyway i mean that that's what i was trying to get out but the main point

00:43:11.600 i've talked a lot about this i'm gonna get in trouble for it all um the the main point is that

00:43:16.920 we're not going to see a christian nationalism happen because because women are are not able to

00:43:25.940 as easily kind of stomach the exclusivist posture you need towards people in society

00:43:33.960 yeah uh the old testament um i think it may be isaiah it might have been ezekiel but

00:43:40.680 talks about the civil majesty, like the state, the government, and speaks of it in animalistic

00:43:48.880 terms as bears or like with claws, sharp claws. And, you know, and that goes right along with,

00:43:58.160 you know, Romans 13, like he bears the sword. And, you know, and these are masculine things.

00:44:04.580 He bears the sword, you know, or a bear or things like that. And I, you know, I think of like

00:44:10.360 kentonji brown jackson um you know supreme court um and you know some of the things that as she

00:44:17.360 was going through you know getting grilled and those kinds of things you guys are bringing up

00:44:20.660 you're soft on on crime and particularly you know um cases of you know where the um pedophilia

00:44:28.240 you know and um and i think you know the the instinct is um well man you know like even with

00:44:35.240 putin when when things like that were just starting out with russian uh invasion of of ukraine you

00:44:41.400 know like one woman i forget her name but wrote um a poem like if um if only i were your mom

00:44:47.440 you know and i think like women think in those terms so it's like here's a pedophile you know

00:44:52.160 who's being tried in court and um and the woman if she happens to be the judge is thinking um

00:44:57.340 gosh i i you know um how come this poor guy you know he's he's messed up he just needs help

00:45:03.160 uh whereas men i think um uh this guy should be hung publicly um that he's a he's a what he's a

00:45:12.040 pedophile like no we're not thinking we're not thinking in sympathetic you know terms and so

00:45:17.360 there's just there's different roles for men and women in the ways that god has designed us but

00:45:21.520 when you're thinking of you know at home caring for um three-year-olds you don't want bears doing

00:45:26.840 that you you want you want nurturing you know uh so anyway so i i completely agree with you and i

00:45:33.980 think that you know there was one study that said uh if women weren't able to vote i think that we

00:45:39.980 wouldn't have one uh democrat um president for the last 50 years um that you know if only men

00:45:45.860 were voting and and you even see within marriage like statistically when women do get married

00:45:50.640 there's a higher likelihood that they begin voting more conservatively um after entering

00:45:56.000 into marriage and having children and i'm sure some some influence from their husbands and so

00:46:00.840 um i i just thought that that was a bold thing for you to add but it's uh somebody we need to

00:46:06.160 talk about um that that i think that's part of the issue and it's not just with the state and

00:46:10.240 it's not just with the culture but um i i think there's so much feminization of the church uh to

00:46:16.120 where um there's a reason why the church doesn't appeal to men um and i think it's because we've

00:46:21.680 said in many ways that uh church isn't for men and uh the sad thing is nothing is for men anymore

00:46:27.380 all society is for women and i think that that's that's one of the reasons why there's soft on

00:46:33.360 crime policies that are that are driven by women but there's also just exasperated men i think

00:46:38.300 that's why jordan peterson has launched into the stratosphere because he had the audacity just to

00:46:43.600 say you know that we need a place for men you know and and um and and that resonates you know

00:46:49.600 with with many people so um what yeah i mean that there yeah i would just say there's

00:46:54.380 yeah i mean what you see is like in academia you see that women tend to be more kind of social

00:47:00.980 justice oriented uh less less dispassionate within the academic their field i mean this is

00:47:08.020 an aggregate this is not of course there are exceptions and all that but uh and so what you

00:47:13.540 get um what you get is this this uh push towards more uh egalitarian policies more egalitarian

00:47:21.540 activism and uh and this leads to essentially the smothering of the the the people who are naturally

00:47:31.380 uh going to rise to the top and are not going to do that because they're they're beat down because

00:47:37.700 they they agonistically and with competition pursue that and you're going to get uh people who

00:47:43.860 are um have a propensity for criminality you're going they're just going to kind of run run free

00:47:50.820 so you have this the the egalitarian um principle uh that is kind of governs their thought and it

00:48:01.440 actually governs our thought now it has for a long time it just it just leads to a society that

00:48:07.540 will smother essentially pathologizes masculinity you know so it's it you have to wonder what what

00:48:14.000 are men for um in a society that is dominated by kind of a very strict egalitarian governing

00:48:20.880 principle yeah um what do you think it is so you said like we've lost it's you said something

00:48:27.640 like this so i'm paraphrasing but that we've lost the will to live right it's like um i don't know

00:48:33.880 if you ever read, uh, the, the fate of empires, uh, grub something, um, it's just a collection

00:48:40.680 of like two essays and talks about, you know, he tracks like how empires on, on average tend to

00:48:45.220 live about a quarter of a millennia, you know, through 250 years, give or take. And, um, they

00:48:51.140 enter into, you know, their later, uh, stages enter into decadence. And then, you know, there's,

00:48:56.360 um, there's a, a lethargy and, and laziness, you know, apathy that comes, but then also it's not

00:49:01.840 just that but there's also um a mixture uh that begins to happen like they um it's you know it's

00:49:07.900 like they fought to take over the world and they finally did and and they become so strong that

00:49:11.780 really there's no they've neutralized all outer threats and so they usually implode from within

00:49:17.440 and um and it's usually because of apathy laziness uh empathy is a big thing and so like starting to

00:49:23.840 you know where positions of leadership in society become a charity rather than merit and um but then

00:49:30.280 also in mixture in terms of um in terms of you know everybody wants to be a part of the empire

00:49:35.780 everybody wants to you know there's a lot of times prosperity and opportunity these kinds of things

00:49:40.160 and and over time you know um there's all of a sudden there's there's a bunch of people who

00:49:46.420 are are living in this particular place that don't really identify with a place who don't

00:49:50.480 it's not really their home and and and so you know i another thing that i've heard you say

00:49:56.300 on this topic is saying that we need to figure out who we are as America. And it's not just

00:50:04.640 that we need to deal with illegal immigration, which we most certainly do immediately. That's 0.89

00:50:09.640 a huge problem. I mean, you can argue that it's a full-scale invasion that's happening

00:50:15.100 with our nation. But then even with legal immigration, that needs to be mitigated 0.97

00:50:21.600 drastically, at least for a time for us to let the dust settle and have this corporate, you know,

00:50:28.780 national identity. And there has to be history, right? A shared history with each other to be

00:50:35.500 able to say, yeah, our grandparents worked together or fought in this war together. And not

00:50:39.240 just, you know, you arrived 15 minutes ago. There's always going to be some level of immigration,

00:50:44.780 people who arrived 15 minutes ago. But if you start talking about a significant portion of

00:50:50.600 the population of a nation is people who just just arrived um then and then that nation is is

00:50:56.900 in serious trouble and so i guess my question is what what what why what is it that that americans

00:51:02.740 have just it really does seem like um like a like slitting your wrist in the bathtub or something

00:51:08.700 like like a will a death wish like a will to die like do you think i i feel like some of it is

00:51:13.960 laziness and decadence but i think some of it also is just guilt like like winners feel guilty for

00:51:19.320 winning or what do you think it is that that america is just because i mean we're really

00:51:23.940 like trying to uh to lose yeah i i think the the west generally uh is is in a sense tired

00:51:35.420 has lacked has lost self-confidence um is self-loathing uh self-hating uh and and and

00:51:45.520 it's to it took i mean that's all pathological but to kind of this intense like perverse degree

00:51:51.500 where uh i mean you can see this in a way is more in europe well they'll take in uh you know so-called

00:52:00.260 refugees and those refugees will begin to practice their culture as they came from and which violates 0.65

00:52:09.240 different various western norms uh but then they don't do anything about it so the the country 0.98

00:52:15.180 uh blames them they blame themselves um for so the germans will blame themselves for the problems in

00:52:21.620 the immigrant community and they'll say well you know it's you gotta just just learn to live with

00:52:25.920 it it's kind of the common phrase that you hear in all the european countries now you just got

00:52:29.440 to learn to live with the new normal uh and it's it's this uh i mean if if a bunch of people came

00:52:37.060 into your community and um and then all of a sudden sexual assault sprang up i mean you saw

00:52:42.380 this this is i'm not there's not some conspiracy this is documented in a place like sweden and

00:52:48.140 germany and all throughout the the europe the spike of sexual assaults if people did that in

00:52:54.840 your community and you had kind of a will to live you'd kick them all out right um but uh and 0.99

00:53:00.140 i mean just like the millions of migrants that came into europe uh a few years ago in 2016 2017 0.99

00:53:07.620 whatever that was that they kept talking that the media would show pictures of of families but the

00:53:12.840 vast majority were fighting age young men who came across and this was again documented many times

00:53:20.100 uh but people they just kept telling themselves but essentially lying to themselves that it's a

00:53:24.840 bunch of families coming across the border like no it's it's actually the it's like 20 something

00:53:29.360 year old men who could could be fighting for their country back home so they fled

00:53:32.780 to come here and take advantage and exploit the system and all that so but we have this we have

00:53:39.140 this um extremely um the west tends to have uh be very altruistic uh especially the anglo

00:53:48.620 the anglo tradition is very altruistic and so we tend to think that you know those those

00:53:54.540 immigrants they were legitimate refugees they're all of them 100 down to every single one

00:53:59.380 and they're not coming here to exploit our system they're coming here to be frenchmen and german

00:54:04.880 and dutch and that's why they're coming here they want to be one of us so no i mean that's why

00:54:09.680 uh the the suburbs of paris are full of people who've never uh assimilated into to becoming

00:54:15.040 french and they resist becoming french because why would they i mean they're not french uh they

00:54:19.460 you know so um they're just these lies from from these these all these altruistic principles that

00:54:26.980 we flow from i think in america uh that there's a lot of people do come here to be americans

00:54:32.400 and i you know i believe that uh very seriously so i think there is some there's some difference

00:54:38.260 uh you know here and i think many people go to england for that to become british um but i think

00:54:44.800 there's there's the majority at least in continental europe i don't think that was the case

00:54:48.400 but in united states we tend to have a more like a geographic that like this universalistic notion

00:54:56.060 that we just we just live in like geographic space and uh and where it's a any human could

00:55:03.700 come here and be here and that's enough like you're within the borders you're american like

00:55:09.900 so there is there's a sense in which we just the united states is a geographic space for like

00:55:15.480 everyone all humans and so um and i mean this this it's a very complicated discussion i'm not

00:55:20.980 to make it simplistic but because of like what what is you know uh what is america or what does

00:55:25.940 it mean to be americans very complicated but but i think that's our our universalistic very

00:55:31.380 humanistic mindset that this this space is just for for everyone so anyway anyone can come here

00:55:37.540 and i my problem with that is that okay this is a very diverse country but like like you mentioned

00:55:43.620 we have to you have to live life in generations here with others you have to like i bring up this

00:55:51.380 idea like your grandfather you mentioned in wars like so in that big national events and national

00:55:56.020 struggles that tends to bring people together there's the uh if your grandfather went to the

00:56:03.300 same high school and that mean i just or your grandfather father worked at this shop and my

00:56:08.580 my grandfather already came in or we would go into that shop there'd be stories and

00:56:12.660 wasn't that fun when you know this there would just be these this sense of sense of community

00:56:17.060 based in generations but if you have people continuously coming in just millions of people

00:56:22.080 always coming in they don't have uh like this sort of collective communal memory in this place

00:56:29.200 and it's like constantly restarting it like if we just stopped we just theoretically say we stopped

00:56:34.680 everyone from coming in and all all we have is the people here here right now it would take

00:56:40.900 would take several generations before we could all i think come together as like as a people right um

00:56:47.060 not not only be not knowing like through inter intermarriage it doesn't have to be

00:56:50.500 intermarriage we have shared experience in this place together right and uh

00:57:00.260 yeah and so i mean that's why i oppose immigration for america but yeah it's it's a very it's hard

00:57:04.740 We're never going to become an actual nation, given our current level diversity, if we keep importing from mass immigration.

00:57:15.780 It's just not going to happen. 0.99

00:57:17.440 So it's, yeah.

00:57:20.440 Yeah, no, I agree.

00:57:21.480 I think, yeah, so I think there's guilt, there's apathy, there's empathy, you know, that's a twisted sense of thinking like we're, you know, being overly altruistic and, oh, we're helping, you know.

00:57:34.520 and this, and this is what it, what it means to be, you know, compassionate, all these kinds of

00:57:38.540 things. And I think, you know, the last thought that I kind of had as you were talking was,

00:57:42.260 I wonder if social media, you know, just the rise with technology, those kinds of things has

00:57:47.680 anything to do with, because there's such a vested interest for individuals today to,

00:57:55.260 for their, for their lives and their achievements and, and their, their interests and all these

00:58:00.000 different things um to to simply be optics and not necessarily tangible not not necessarily real

00:58:06.080 um to just to have you know like like everything you're you do is is to broadcast out to as many

00:58:13.380 people you know wanting so much uh um approval from from the masses and i wonder just like as

00:58:19.420 the world has gotten smaller through through various technologies and these kinds of things

00:58:23.880 that you know caring more about you know what what america looks like on the world stage

00:58:28.980 Does, you know, does the UN like us or do other nations think we're nice enough?

00:58:33.040 You know, like, whereas, you know, like when your whole focus is oriented in who's physically

00:58:39.680 in front of you, you know, it's just like your whole life, right?

00:58:43.200 You don't know, you don't have 30,000 fans, you know, or a million.

00:58:47.200 Your whole life is, I know about 50 people, you know, by name that are in my life.

00:58:52.660 And I've got my wife and I've got my children and I've got my job and I have my church.

00:58:55.900 And so, yeah, so I'm going to do what benefits them because they're the only approval that I'm looking for. 0.69

00:59:03.320 I'm not looking for the approval of someone in Ukraine, you know, like by having, you know, supporting them with this flag, you know, in my bio on my social media page.

00:59:15.300 So I guess my question is there's altruism, but do you think altruism is kind of ramped up on steroids because of social media to the point where we just,

00:59:23.480 We care more about appearances and global approval than actual tangible growth and productivity and benefit.

00:59:35.580 I mean, yeah, I think that a lot of the social media presence is sort of kind of framing an identity.

00:59:46.980 It's usually an opposition.

00:59:48.060 I tend to think when I say the Ukraine flag in a bio, I usually think that they really just mean they don't like me.

00:59:55.700 That it's really not, it's less support for Ukraine and more that they just don't like conservatives or right wing people. 0.89

01:00:01.080 It's actually a flag for them to signal their support for crushing us. 0.79

01:00:06.600 That's how I interpret the flag.

01:00:08.760 And I think that's probably right.

01:00:11.440 Given the sort of people who have the flag and what they say.

01:00:14.500 um yeah i i i think that there is this that they can't people have their i call this like the

01:00:23.020 marvelification of reality i think this is actually my co-host from podcast but

01:00:27.420 thomas says this but it's a it's like a marvelification of reality where the the media

01:00:32.680 captures you with who's the baddie it's like the two minute hate from uh night the orwell's 1984

01:00:40.800 for where they present in front of you who's the bad guy today and then you have heroes along with

01:00:47.200 it you have uh you know captain ukraine and you have uh zelinski and you have you know these guys

01:00:54.080 are like the the heroes the the ones with the the capes and fighting the bad guys and you have the

01:00:59.360 evil one pudin and so that's why you had all like when this was happening and you still see this

01:01:06.000 like marvel characters in these scenarios in these situations it's like this we're instead of watching

01:01:14.480 like a marvel movie we're watching the news but it's the same kind of thing and it's it's portrayed

01:01:19.200 as as like reality to us when it's really just feeding our just more consumption consume consume

01:01:26.000 consume and it but it frames who we think is bad and good and that's like our entire reality so

01:01:32.000 So people are able to get out there because, again, they're just fat on the couch and want to watch Marvel movies.

01:01:38.600 They want to get out that aggression.

01:01:41.000 And so that aggression is channeled through the Marvelication of through the news media of who's good and who's bad.

01:01:47.860 And it's Twitter and social media feeds into this as well.

01:01:51.800 And so, yeah, I mean, I think there certainly is this.

01:01:55.660 It's appearances, but I mean, but it's more I think it's psychological.

01:01:59.860 I think we're just so unable to do anything realistic or, um, tangible and meaningful, uh, in this world that we can just try to get, um, brought into this, this fantasy reality of, of, you know, good and bad and hate and love and hate.

01:02:23.460 That makes a lot of sense.

01:02:25.220 Okay.

01:02:25.820 Well, do you have any final thoughts for our listeners that you'd like to leave us with?

01:02:30.760 I mean, the only other question I have in the back of my mind is, you know, from a little bit of, you know, talking with you with some other guys, like-minded, you know, offline, and then watching you already doing some interviews, talking about the book, and then a little bit of the book that I've read so far.

01:02:46.940 I've only had it for a couple days at the time that we're recording right now.

01:02:49.640 But I, man, I just, I don't understand why Christians would not be for the case that you are making.

01:02:58.340 It's, I mean, it's, it's a, this is a historic, this isn't even like a radical, you know, it's, it's just not, it's not that extreme.

01:03:06.700 It's just, it's, it's a confessional, you know, reformed Protestant case for, it's Christianity and, and just its natural outworkings in all of our various spheres of life.

01:03:19.180 And yet, it's not like you're just going to have a bunch of purple-haired, liberal, progressive people not liking it, but there are apparently, allegedly, conservative Christians who are also not really a fan.

01:03:37.580 What do you think that is?

01:03:39.660 What do you think the outcome of it?

01:03:41.160 Do you think that the church can rally behind something like this, that we could be Christian nationalists?

01:03:47.520 Or are we just going to splinter?

01:03:49.860 I feel like, I guess what I'm trying to say is I feel like over the last two and a half years in the providence of God, in his mercy, the veil has been lifted to where, you know, American Christianity is just slowly heating up like the frog in this boiling pot of water.

01:04:03.100 And it's like the enemy got too arrogant and turned up the temperature all of a sudden real quick.

01:04:10.160 It's like, oh, we were almost to boiling point.

01:04:11.780 Let's just go ahead and knock it the rest of the way.

01:04:13.280 and the temperature rose quickly and the frog finally felt it and jumped out of the pot.

01:04:18.700 And it's like you have half of the evangelical church that finally is awake and realize 0.60

01:04:23.940 CRT and intersectionality and wokeness and civil tyranny and transing kids in schools 0.68

01:04:30.460 and all the, like, this is a bad idea. 1.00

01:04:32.540 We're not doing this.

01:04:35.460 But so it's like we had half of us and it really felt like for a couple of years, like

01:04:39.980 We have a team here, and now it feels like the team's getting really narrow because we agreed on the problem, but I'm quickly finding that even within the Christian conservative world, we don't agree on the solution.

01:04:51.460 Guys who I would have thought even just six months ago, like that guy for sure, he'll be on the team, and they're not.

01:04:59.660 What do you think is going to happen?

01:05:04.000 I don't know.

01:05:04.940 I hope I convince a lot of people. 0.83

01:05:06.200 I think one thing that's going to happen is they're going to try to use the kind of social justice cards to attack Christian nationalism. 0.95

01:05:15.460 So I made the choice to talk about gynocracy in the book. 0.65

01:05:19.320 And so they're going to say that I'm misogynist. 0.97

01:05:22.560 And that's going to be what they're going to try to divide women from this. 0.68

01:05:28.000 Of course, many women will not. 0.99

01:05:29.900 They'll actually agree with what I say, but given the state of the world, it'll probably be fewer than we'll be offended. 0.99

01:05:40.080 There's going to be racial stuff.

01:05:41.580 They're going to try to divide along that.

01:05:42.720 It's kind of a divide and conquer.

01:05:45.860 That's going to happen.

01:05:46.880 But I think that the main thing that people don't like, the way they'll resist, is we've been trained in passivity. 0.91

01:05:57.440 We've been trained to be passive with regard to Christian political action. 0.84

01:06:04.960 And this has been going on for a long, long time.

01:06:07.180 I think that it's, I don't know when it started, but the example of it would be the civil rights movement with Martin Luther King.

01:06:17.840 So I'm not going to bash anything related to any of that or him.

01:06:21.860 but his his movement and the civil rights movement was was largely kind of this passive thing of

01:06:29.080 course it was active there in the streets and all that but it wasn't it was more like it was

01:06:33.020 passive in the sense that it was a a sort of performance to get like white sympathy so then

01:06:38.940 you know people would see the hoses and the dogs barking and and all that they'd have sympathy and

01:06:44.820 they'd say no more and then segregation's ended so that that was a it was a path it was like a

01:06:51.040 passive in the sense that you're appealing you're not achieving it yourself you're actually doing

01:06:56.880 something to then get other people to do something for you in a way okay christians kind of have that

01:07:03.520 same mindset that if we have good moral witness if we if we show ourselves to be passive and

01:07:10.640 submissive and kind and winsome all these all these things is is meant to try to passively

01:07:19.920 perform in front of now secular overlords to kind of get what we want we the idea is we can't achieve

01:07:26.960 anything by our own self-assertion by bringing about by our own action it has to be passive

01:07:31.680 this is like david french's basic political theology which is a incoherent mess doesn't

01:07:36.640 make any sense but that's basically what it is it's it's it's passivity passivity passive

01:07:43.280 performance to get the other people to like you to let you kind of have your little space in the

01:07:47.040 the world that that's what it's all about um and i i don't know how i mean it's it's frustrating

01:07:54.140 because it's like yeah well you're presbyterian do you even know your own tradition i mean you're

01:07:58.300 here you know so even baptizing anyone any protestant like do you even know your own

01:08:03.260 heritage like that's not this passive thing is not you know there's an element of that but it's

01:08:09.840 active so the point here is that's not the christian nationalism the christian yeah the

01:08:16.540 christian nationalism is saying you should be assertive and active so that you in your own will

01:08:22.720 and action bring about what you want bring about what ought to be about what ought to be in

01:08:27.920 existence not passively not perform not this uh oh please overlords give us what we want no it's we

01:08:35.300 say we this is what we ought to do and we act and achieve it and i'm just hoping that people

01:08:41.640 will um see that i'm hoping men in particular will see that they should do things and not

01:08:48.980 uh not concern themselves with the school marms who want to look down upon that and say no you

01:08:55.960 can't violate the rules it's not that's not inclusive enough no like you should insert

01:09:00.220 assert yourself and say yeah no you're not going to blaspheme god anymore it's done you're done

01:09:05.680 i mean that's that sort of thing we should have that that assertion and do it enact it and it's

01:09:11.840 just uh um so anyway that that's that's what i would hope to go fight win yeah yeah i agree all

01:09:21.240 right well um where where can people get it let me hold up the book again so everybody can see it

01:09:25.180 It's coming out November 1st, The Case for Christian Nationalism by Stephen Wolf, and

01:09:30.940 I believe that it'll be available through Canon, but then also Amazon, is that right?

01:09:36.080 Yeah, I mean, you can pre-order it now, and yeah, and eventually Canon will have it available.

01:09:41.960 Yeah, I don't know what the timetable on that is.

01:09:44.100 And will they have like a hard copy?

01:09:46.580 Will it be on the Canon Plus app in terms of like an Audible format?

01:09:50.700 So I understand that someone is reading it now, and so it should be on Canon Plus app.

01:09:55.020 Yeah.

01:09:55.180 I don't know about hardcover.

01:09:56.520 I think that is that might happen, but they wanted to get it out now and had to paperback.

01:10:01.780 Okay, great.

01:10:02.760 All right.

01:10:03.000 So here it is once more, The Case for Christian Nationalism by Stephen Wolfe.

01:10:06.960 Thanks so much for coming on the show, Stephen.

01:10:08.640 I appreciate it.

01:10:09.660 And last thing, where can people follow you online?

01:10:13.080 I think you said you had a podcast that people can tune into.

01:10:17.000 Yeah.

01:10:17.180 I mean, with the Thomas Acorn and I, we do a podcast called Ars Politica.

01:10:21.880 Ars Politica.

01:10:22.880 Okay.

01:10:23.400 So we've been doing that for a couple of years.

01:10:25.180 So you can find us there.

01:10:26.880 All right.

01:10:27.540 Yep.

01:10:28.460 When the name of your podcast is Ars Politica, then you know that you've been working on

01:10:34.180 a doctorate.

01:10:35.360 That's his idea.

01:10:38.300 It was his idea.

01:10:40.180 Okay.

01:10:40.400 We'll blame it on you.

01:10:41.680 Okay.

01:10:41.980 Cool.

01:10:42.460 Well, thanks again, Stephen.

01:10:43.240 I really appreciate you coming on the show.

01:10:44.620 God bless.

01:10:45.140 Thanks so much for listening.

01:10:46.400 But real quick, before you go, do us a small favor, take a moment, and leave us a five-star

01:10:51.600 review if you enjoyed the show.

01:10:53.200 This is undoubtedly the best way that you can help us get this biblically faithful content to as many people as possible.

01:11:00.980 Thanks so much.

The NXR Podcast - November 08, 2022

THEOLOGY APPLIED - Christian Nationalism & The Chaos Of Female Leadership

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