The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - Christian Polemics and the Absurdity of “Niceness”

00:00:00.380 Applying God's Word to every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied.

00:00:11.400 Okay, welcome. This is Pastor Joel with Right Response Ministries. We've got another episode of Theology Applied today.

00:00:18.000 As a special guest, I have Toby Sumter. He is one of the pastors at Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho.

00:00:25.480 He's also one of the hosts for a podcast called CrossPolitik.

00:00:31.020 And today, the topic that we're going to be addressing is Christian polemics.

00:00:35.080 Christian polemics.

00:00:36.440 Not politics, but polemics. 0.94

00:00:38.080 And we're going to be doing our best, by God's grace, to debunk the absurdity, the fallacy of the 11th commandment, Christian niceness. 0.90

00:00:48.520 And so I want to go ahead and just dive right in. 0.78

00:00:50.720 So the first thing that we'll do is just give you a moment, Toby, to just tell our listeners a little bit about yourself.

00:00:55.760 Who are you? Who is Toby Sumter?

00:00:57.560 Well, that's a long and sordid tale, but the short version is I am a pastor here.

00:01:07.280 As you mentioned, I've been in the ministry for about, I think, coming up on 15 years.

00:01:13.840 Um, I, um, uh, am married, have four, uh, children and, uh, we're heavily involved with,

00:01:21.360 uh, classical Christian school here, uh, in Moscow called Logos school.

00:01:25.280 And, um, and like, like you said, I'm also heavily involved with the cross politic, um,

00:01:30.880 podcast and television show.

00:01:33.000 Yep.

00:01:33.580 And that's a daily event now.

00:01:35.000 It used to be once a week.

00:01:36.060 And now I keep looking at that and I think about your family life and just your pastoral

00:01:40.040 work. And then I, you know, the daily brief from, you know, you and Gabe and Chuck Knox seemed to

00:01:45.060 split that rotation, but still I'm like, Toby's doing at least three or four things a week with

00:01:50.380 cross politics. So that's, you're going to have to, you're going to have to press on Gabe and

00:01:54.560 Knox to get some compensation or something. Well, it's the least I can do. Those two guys

00:02:00.900 have been pulling a really hard on this for a long time. And they're, cause they're, you know,

00:02:06.260 So I'm grateful to be supported by the church, and they're trying to make a living out of this thing.

00:02:12.160 Totally.

00:02:12.640 Yeah, I've had those conversations with Gabe.

00:02:14.200 But you guys are doing great work.

00:02:15.680 I'm grateful for it.

00:02:16.640 I've benefited a ton from what you guys do.

00:02:19.000 So let's go ahead and just dive right in.

00:02:20.380 The first question, I've got some questions written down.

00:02:22.040 The first one that I have is, could you define, and I know it's hard because people have different definitions,

00:02:26.980 but what is niceness in the way that you would define it?

00:02:31.180 And maybe more importantly, in the way that you think the average Christian, the average evangelical today would define niceness.

00:02:38.580 And based off of that definition, your definition, but also the average Christian's definition of niceness, how is that contrary to the Bible?

00:02:47.100 Why is niceness not a Christian virtue?

00:02:49.720 Yeah, well, I think maybe the closest thing to a Christian virtue that is the closest relative, or maybe the real version of what I think Christians sort of assume when they say niceness, would be what the Bible calls kindness.

00:03:10.580 Right.

00:03:10.800 Um, so, um, kindness is a fruit of the spirit. Um, uh, God is kind, um, to us. He's been supremely

00:03:21.640 kind to us in Jesus. Um, I think that, um, and that word is, is rooted in the, the old Testament,

00:03:29.800 uh, the Hebrew word has said, um, which is frequently translated loving kindness or merciful

00:03:36.960 kindness. And that would be really closely connected to our word for grace and that which

00:03:45.900 is gracious. So do I believe that Christians are to be gracious like God is gracious? Absolutely.

00:03:53.040 Are Christians to be kind and tenderhearted? Well, absolutely. If you are not a kind man,

00:04:02.380 a gracious man, a merciful woman, a forgiving woman, then the Bible is clear, then you perhaps

00:04:11.620 have not met our God. You have not met the Lord Jesus, because when you've been showed that kind

00:04:18.520 of love, that kind of kindness, that kind of tender mercy, you can't help but then show that

00:04:24.620 kind of tender mercy, that kind of love, that kind of forgiveness. But that, I think the world

00:04:31.220 defines niceness, though, I think they sort of co-opt this category, but they're filling that

00:04:38.260 category with alien ideas. And one of the principal ones would be that in order to be nice,

00:04:45.480 in order to be kind, you must never offend anyone. You must not ever say anything that

00:04:52.220 hurts someone's feelings. It makes them feel bad. But that is not the kindness of God. That's not

00:05:00.960 the love of God. The love of God confronts us in our sin, and in a wonderful way, even humiliates

00:05:13.600 us in our sin. The reason why we are driven to the cross and driven to Christ is because God and

00:05:24.020 his kindness shows us how awful we are, how filthy our sin is, and how shameful it is.

00:05:33.440 And it's really only when you have been caught by that, confronted by that reality, that

00:05:40.920 you are in a position to cry out for mercy.

00:05:44.300 And then God is there.

00:05:46.100 I mean, the reason why he drives us to the cross is so that he can show us mercy.

00:05:51.220 um but so it's it's it's um um anyway so christian love though um sometimes you know the new testament

00:05:59.220 writers describe um you know confronting um speaking the truth in love um and i think

00:06:06.440 frequently what christians think that means is is go light on the truth go heavy on the love

00:06:11.240 right um and and i but i don't think that's what it means at all i think it means speak the truth

00:06:15.960 and in speaking the truth you are in fact loving your neighbor um and i think you know there's 0.94

00:06:23.380 obviously ways that you can be a jerk about it and um but that's not kind and not gracious 0.98

00:06:29.700 but just because someone thinks you're being a jerk doesn't mean you're not being loving 0.98

00:06:33.980 um and so and then ultimately i would just point to the example of jesus himself 0.96

00:06:38.720 um if uh if jesus had been nice according to the standards of the world he would have never been

00:06:44.820 killed. That's right. And we'd be dead in our sin. Yeah. So, but he was, he was killed because he

00:06:50.500 wasn't nice according to the world standards, but he was absolutely gracious. He was absolutely

00:06:56.260 kind and merciful. Um, but again, you look at all the apostles, I mean, at least 11 of the 12 got

00:07:01.820 killed according to church tradition. Um, and, and they didn't get killed because, uh, they were

00:07:08.200 being too nice. Um, they, they were, they were killed because they were willing to speak the

00:07:13.640 truth at places where people would be deeply offended, hate them, and plot to put them to

00:07:19.940 death. Yep. And it all seems like it's, in many ways, it's centered around speaking. So I'm 0.98

00:07:25.880 reminded of Jesus when he says, you know, I've done many great works of God for which of these

00:07:30.140 good works, speaking of his miracles, his working, his hands, his feet, for which of these are you

00:07:35.700 going to put me to death? And they say, we're not going to put you to death for any of the things

00:07:39.340 that you've done it's the things that you've said it's because you by your speaking by your words

00:07:44.060 are making yourself an equal to God and and so I you know I'm always uh thinking of you know 1.00

00:07:50.800 Christians today I think in their niceness uh part of the way that the Christians want to be 0.91

00:07:54.800 nice is they want to they want to center their evangelistic and it's an irony it's just not even 0.79

00:08:00.260 a biblical category but they want to center their evangelistic efforts around deeds and and there

00:08:05.400 is a sense in which we do our good deeds so that people men might see them and glorify our father

00:08:10.180 in heaven um but but people are only going to glorify our father in heaven when we do good

00:08:15.080 deeds uh if if we're giving in our words our father in heaven credit otherwise people they're

00:08:20.720 not going to glorify our father in heaven they're going to glorify the power of humanity it's just

00:08:24.580 a humanitarian effort where all it's going to do is it's actually it actually is counterproductive

00:08:29.040 because really the results to me it seems like it just anybody who might have been kind of doubting

00:08:34.260 you know humanity might have been thinking maybe humanity really is bad and needs a savior and

00:08:38.600 and oh but you know what i've been so encouraged today because my neighbor uh just did the kindest

00:08:44.340 thing just did just did the best thing and uh so there really are good people out there and that's

00:08:49.300 because your neighbor did a really good thing who's actually a christian and that was the basis

00:08:53.040 for them doing that good thing but but but you would never know right i've heard the old adage

00:08:58.140 that you know if i ever did meet a christian uh he never blew his cover so somebody said that it

00:09:03.640 It might have been Doug Wilson.

00:09:05.380 I can't remember. 0.54

00:09:06.020 But, you know, but that idea of just this undercover mimes for Jesus, undercover Christian, and it really just does no good.

00:09:13.420 When you were saying truth and love, it just got me thinking about, you know, we divorce these things.

00:09:18.620 But it's a truthful love and a loving truth.

00:09:21.200 And I think you're talking about confrontation.

00:09:25.140 Niceness just never confronts.

00:09:27.320 But I think that's the truth piece.

00:09:29.120 Would you agree that truth, it seems to me truth necessarily, by virtue of the truth, it necessarily confronts anything that is not of the truth. 0.94

00:09:39.200 And so to withhold, to me, for a Christian to intentionally withhold, there's no way, I should say it like this, there's no way to withhold confrontation without suppressing truth. 0.91

00:09:51.400 And so for me, I would say it seems like one of the differences between niceness and kindness is, if we got really specific, niceness is kindness with deceit. 0.97

00:10:04.260 It's kindness absent of truth.

00:10:06.980 Would you agree with that?

00:10:07.920 Do you think that's a fair assessment?

00:10:09.880 Absolutely.

00:10:10.560 Yeah, I think there's a couple of old King James words that I think we need to recover that are connected to this.

00:10:19.520 but one of them is the word dissembling. Um, and I, and I think that, um, I think many Christians 1.00

00:10:25.440 are full of dissembling and the idea is that it's, uh, and the other word I'm thinking of is, 1.00

00:10:30.120 is flattery. Um, but, um, but I think Christians are full of flattery in that, and it's not so 0.98

00:10:36.660 much that you're constantly, you know, singing the high praises of everyone all the time, 0.96

00:10:41.000 but a more subtle form of flattery is that we are constantly pretending that everything's fine.

00:10:46.220 Right. Because we're afraid of coming in contact with the enemy. But but I think to your point on confrontation, absolutely. I think if we are light, then light confronts darkness. It exposes darkness. Right.

00:11:03.980 And, you know, I mean, Jesus gave us the example of, you know, hiding your light under a bushel, for example, you know, on purpose, because he knows, he knew our hearts and knew that we, the darkness hates the light, because it exposes their deeds done in darkness.

00:11:22.900 Right.

00:11:22.980 And and so absolutely it's confrontational in the same way that light always confronts darkness. And and I think you're absolutely right. It's the niceness quote unquote niceness is is full of lies and deception.

00:11:36.900 It reminds me of I think you spoke on this before you guys with a cross policy, but it's it's an example specific example would be like the pronoun hospitality with J.D. Greer that just the idea of, well, this is one way we can exercise hospitality or kindness, because that's what hospitality is entertaining strangers, but with with kindness and generosity.

00:11:57.640 And so J.D. Greer, he's just building this false pretense that, you know, that you could somehow exercise genuine Holy Spirit wrought kindness, but with deceit.

00:12:12.480 And, you know, and I, yeah, it's this idea that I can entertain somebody's, I mean, somebody's sick.

00:12:18.660 That person's really sick. 0.97

00:12:20.440 They're delusional. 0.98

00:12:21.680 And, and I'm going, I'm affirming that every time I say she, when, when it should be he, I'm affirming a sickness and we're calling that kindness. Like we wouldn't do that with, with anything. I think of, I think you guys have said this before also, but like anorexia, right? Like we, if a, if a woman who weighs, you know, 84 pounds and it's just, you know, just skin and bones is talking about how fat she is.

00:12:46.140 I would never say to that woman, yeah, yeah, you really are fat. 0.99

00:12:50.820 And if you could like, I mean, if I mean, if we did that in our culture today, everyone would say you're a monster. 1.00

00:12:56.560 You're a monster. But but we but we have found people.

00:13:00.420 But now we say that's body shaming. Yes. Right. Right.

00:13:03.960 And so, yeah. And but now we're doing the very same thing, not not with somebody who's starving themselves, but somebody who's at least mulling over the idea of mutilating themselves.

00:13:14.360 Like, how is that any better? How is that any, but we would call that, and I only bring it up just to say that's an example of a very well-known, you know, evangelical pastor advocating for, and I think he would say, you know, he called it pronoun hospitality, but I think he would put it into that category of kindness.

00:13:35.360 And I think you and I both would say that's not kindness.

00:13:38.980 It may be niceness, but that's precisely the problem.

00:13:41.460 That's the distinction we're trying to show between niceness and kindness.

00:13:46.380 So if I could just kind of move us along in the conversation, what about polemics then?

00:13:50.920 So we've kind of, all right, we've defined, you've helped us with niceness and why it's a problem

00:13:54.780 and how that differs from the actual fruit of the Spirit, kindness.

00:13:57.440 But what does it mean for a Christian to be polemical?

00:14:00.660 And is this something that every Christian should engage in?

00:14:03.320 And what are good polemics and what what's so in the same way, niceness, the distinction between niceness and kindness. 0.99

00:14:08.480 What's the distinction between Christian polemics and just being a jerk? 0.99

00:14:12.460 Right. Yeah. Unlike the fruit of the spirit, which is for every Christian. 1.00

00:14:19.020 So every Christian, you don't have the option of opting out of any of the fruit of the spirit.

00:14:22.980 You have the Holy Spirit and he's working all that spirit, all those fruits into you and you need to be growing in them.

00:14:28.340 Unlike that, I would say that the practice of polemics is not necessarily something that every Christian is called to.

00:14:37.840 I think that you're called to always tell the truth, and sometimes somebody might think you're being polemical because you're telling the truth in, you know, there you are, and everyone says, don't you love the emperor's new clothes?

00:14:52.980 And you're saying, well, I think he's naked, guys. And you might get written up in the newspaper as being polemical when all you were doing was, you know, asserting the bare minimal truth.

00:15:07.560 So, you know, we're fast reaching the point where many or most Christians might be accused of being polemical, radicals, whatever.

00:15:16.620 But I would say in general, not every Christian is called to it.

00:15:22.240 So what I mean by polemics is sort of a public prophetic-like ministry that is intentionally attempting to call out the leaders of evil, leaders of darkness, and those who are wolves and false prophets and so on. 0.53

00:15:46.720 It's intentionally confrontational and sort of the, I'm calling you out, I want to do battle with you, spiritually speaking, biblically speaking, and typically highly verbal and rhetorical.

00:16:04.420 So, you know, I'm thinking of examples like Elijah and the showdown of the prophets of Baal and Ahab. 0.87

00:16:14.560 He had a polemical ministry. 0.87

00:16:16.520 Many of the many of, you know, Ezekiel's ministry is polemical in the sense that he is going to town, rebuking and denouncing the Israelites and their idolatry and their sin.

00:16:30.580 Many of the other prophets have very polemical ministries as well.

00:16:36.320 Jesus had polemical elements to his ministry.

00:16:40.940 He will tell stories meant to cause the priests and Pharisees to be ashamed of their hypocrisies.

00:16:51.340 He makes fun of them. 0.90

00:16:53.160 He tells jokes about them.

00:16:56.620 And Paul does the same. 0.58

00:16:59.160 The writer of most of the New Testament letters will mock the Judaizers for going back to the law, calls them dogs, says they're mutilators of the flesh, asks, you know, when you're going to go circumcise somebody, why don't you just go the whole way and emasculate them? 0.62

00:17:21.540 And so all of those would be examples, though, of what I would describe as polemics, where it's a combination of sort of Jeremiah, which is what we get from Jeremiah the prophet.

00:17:38.900 It's a confrontational rebuke, married to, I think, or what ought to be married to a deeply, actually joyful love of the truth, which will come out sometimes, though, in a certain kind of godly mockery, a holy denunciation that, you know, mimics God's own laughter in heaven.

00:18:09.860 In Psalm 2, it says that, you know, the nations rage and plot vain things, and God sits in heaven and laughs and holds them in derision because they reject him and reject his Messiah.

00:18:22.880 So that's what I mean by polemics. 0.96

00:18:24.620 And I think not all Christians are called to it.

00:18:27.420 I don't even think all pastors are called to it.

00:18:30.520 Um, but I would say, but I would say that I think that, um, all Christian, all pastors have, um, are, um, have a calling that's, um, at least closer to it in the sense that they really do have to preach all of God's word.

00:18:45.940 Um, and they can't, they can't skip over, uh, the dicey parts, uh, uh, and they have to proclaim them faithfully and courageously.

00:18:54.480 But I would say, you know, maybe I'd say to the extent that all sermons are sort of an echo of prophetic ministry, there's an element in them.

00:19:04.760 But I think there are some pastors that are faithful generals in the army, faithful men who aren't necessarily going to be the out in front hollering at the prophets of Baal and asking them if their God's still in the bathroom or not.

00:19:18.860 Um, but I think many pastors are called to it, um, and, um, and other Christian leaders.

00:19:27.640 Yep.

00:19:28.480 Super helpful.

00:19:29.700 Um, as I, I, I kept thinking as you were talking, I think part of, if any of our listeners,

00:19:36.360 you know, would, would kind of just be gritting their teeth as you were sharing that, just

00:19:41.700 like, you know, internally pushing back.

00:19:43.740 And I don't like that.

00:19:44.860 I, I don't think that doesn't sound Christian to me.

00:19:47.720 doesn't sound like kindness, doesn't sound like gentleness. I think part of the hang-up,

00:19:52.040 at least for myself even, as I kind of came in to a better understanding of this biblical category,

00:20:00.440 part of the hang-up for me is what you were speaking about earlier in terms of just understanding

00:20:04.840 shame. I think for a lot of Christians, we don't have any positive category for shame.

00:20:11.840 And so if we only see shame as something that's toxic and harmful, it only does harm.

00:20:21.960 We don't have any category for the grace of shame.

00:20:25.460 We don't have any category.

00:20:27.160 And I think some of that is just the niceness. 1.00

00:20:30.120 It's just kind of the good old boy Christian thing. 0.52

00:20:34.260 But I think the gospel-centered Christian tribe, if you will, has tried to justify that mindset theologically.

00:20:43.820 And so with this gospel-centered everything mentality, I think I've heard a lot of Christians and a lot of pastors say, well, the gospel, it's a shame-free zone.

00:20:57.200 Whereas I always think, you know, the gospel, you know, God, the law of God, God loves his law just as much as he loves his gospel.

00:21:06.640 And both, he loves them because they reveal his own nature.

00:21:09.920 The law reveals who God is.

00:21:12.000 It's an extension of his own self.

00:21:13.980 And the gospel also reveals God's mercy, his kindness, who God is.

00:21:17.900 And so for me, when I see the law and gospel working together, it actually, it's not a shame-free zone.

00:21:25.220 it actually produces shame. And what the gospel, to me, what the cross does is the gospel doesn't

00:21:31.760 provide a shame-free zone. It provides a place where shame drives people to where our shame

00:21:37.320 ultimately can be dealt with. And so like when God comes looking for Adam in the garden,

00:21:42.740 he doesn't say you have no reason to be ashamed or the garden is a shame-free zone.

00:21:48.080 Don't be, you know, but rather it's Adam's trying to cover his own nakedness. He's trying, he's

00:21:52.900 doing a you know a poor job of trying to deal with his own shame and and god kind of leans in

00:21:59.160 and yeah you you should be ashamed let but let me cover that let me let me take that shame and

00:22:06.320 so i just think we we struggle with polemics because polemics it's more than just what we

00:22:11.180 we started off talking about you know the you know the opposite of niceness just truth and truth

00:22:16.360 being by its own virtue confrontational but uh polemical language seems to say like all right

00:22:22.420 This is already going to be confrontational, and I'm going to kind of, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like polemical language, we're kind of, I'm going to say this a little stronger than I even, I'm going to up the ante a little bit.

00:22:33.740 But I think the reason why is because we believe that sometimes the Lord does humiliate.

00:22:43.420 He breaks us.

00:22:44.660 Hosea 6, he tears us to pieces. 0.82

00:22:46.920 He crushes us. 0.81

00:22:48.360 He breaks us.

00:22:49.100 He disciplines and he uses shame as his rod to get through to us, to dismantle and disassemble all those things that are not in his image, that are not in place.

00:23:02.540 and to build us back up in him.

00:23:06.020 And so I guess, so my question is,

00:23:08.420 if we're talking about using extra strong language

00:23:12.220 and you've already, it was really helpful just saying,

00:23:14.400 all right, this isn't for everybody,

00:23:15.400 not even necessarily for every pastor,

00:23:17.880 much less every Christian,

00:23:19.640 but you're saying there is a category.

00:23:22.540 Some people are called to this.

00:23:24.220 So what would you do if a Christian, 1.00

00:23:25.520 just to play the devil's advocate, 0.96

00:23:26.640 if a Christian says, all right, Toby, 0.92

00:23:28.540 2 Timothy 2, verse 24 and 25.

00:23:32.540 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome, but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness.

00:23:42.200 For who knows, God may perhaps grant them repentance, leading to a knowledge of the truth.

00:23:49.200 And they may come to their senses, like the prodigal, coming to their senses and escape the snare of the devil after being captured by him to do his will.

00:23:56.640 Like, what if I was saying, Toby, it sounds like gentleness, correction with gentleness is the tool that God's prescribing, at least in this text, for being effective, that you don't have to, you know, you don't have to go above and beyond, that just that gentle correction will produce enough necessary shame to drive someone to repentance if the Lord has ordained it.

00:24:18.260 What would you say?

00:24:20.500 Yeah, well, I would say I think every pastor should have that verse somewhere in their study or, you know, underlined in their Bible.

00:24:28.180 It's a wonderful summary of pastoral ministry.

00:24:31.960 And I would say that we need to make sure that we define every word in those verses according to the Bible.

00:24:41.880 And the same Paul who wrote that to Timothy, insisting that Timothy imitate him and imitate his ministry, is the same Paul who, you know, well, I said earlier what he told the Judaizers.

00:24:57.560 He wrote a pretty harsh letter of rebuke to the Corinthians.

00:25:02.720 And, you know, I mean, and the Corinthians were kind of a piece of work, special church.

00:25:06.760 um and um and in second corinthians in particular paul says and um i know i made you guys very sad

00:25:14.000 um and i'm glad that i did um he he rebuked them and and and i would say and he did it

00:25:23.120 with gentleness um gentleness doesn't mean um not doing anything that um it doesn't hurt

00:25:31.660 Um, uh, gentle, gentleness, I believe means, um, doing what is necessary, um, uh, for the good

00:25:41.680 of those you're addressing. And so, um, a surgeon who needs to amputate, you know, my leg, um,

00:25:50.560 you know, for, because it's, you know, infected and it's going to get me sick and kill me,

00:25:54.600 um, uh, should not use more force and more, um, violence than is necessary to remove my leg.

00:26:03.920 Right. Um, but, but when he's done a faithful job of removing my leg, um, I would say he is,

00:26:10.080 he has acted, um, in full gentleness according to the, what the moment required. Um, it was,

00:26:17.000 it was, it was restraint because he didn't take off both of my legs. Um, he, he didn't,

00:26:21.960 He didn't just put a bullet in my head.

00:26:24.440 He didn't use it as an opportunity to work on his hatchet skills.

00:26:27.480 You know, like he.

00:26:29.020 Right.

00:26:29.500 But, you know, God, did God confront Saul on the road to Damascus with gentleness?

00:26:40.700 I would say absolutely did.

00:26:42.600 What Saul deserved was hell.

00:26:45.920 And what he got was knocked off his horse and blinded.

00:26:50.260 Right.

00:26:50.360 God was using all kinds of restraint. 0.97

00:26:54.800 You know, you little annoying, you know, could have been way worse, could have sent fire down on them.

00:27:03.080 And yet God in his gentleness confronts us with just the right amount of force.

00:27:11.620 And I think, you know, I was just thinking about this morning I taught a class, the story of Naboth's Vineyard.

00:27:20.360 With King Ahab and Jezebel. 0.85

00:27:23.740 He's throwing a fit.

00:27:25.420 Yeah, horrific.

00:27:26.440 I mean, layer upon layer of wickedness.

00:27:29.560 Yeah.

00:27:30.540 Fitting and then plotting.

00:27:32.940 I want it.

00:27:33.920 But I want it.

00:27:35.040 But culminating in murder and theft of this good man's inheritance from many generations.

00:27:44.840 Right. 0.86

00:27:45.180 And then is confronted by the prophet, rebuked by the prophet, and Ahab repents.

00:27:52.780 And God accepts his repentance.

00:27:55.940 Yeah, that's really helpful.

00:27:58.760 And so the heart that we ought to have is absolutely one of correct them.

00:28:04.000 Maybe they will turn back from the snare of the devil, exactly what Paul tells Timothy.

00:28:08.280 But the question is, what is the force required?

00:28:10.940 and the force required, rhetorically, verbally speaking,

00:28:15.020 if it is in fact what is required to get the repentance,

00:28:19.140 that is imitating God's gentleness.

00:28:21.400 That's super helpful.

00:28:22.160 I love how like what you just said about Paul in terms of,

00:28:26.520 you know, when he's writing, you know, to the Galatians

00:28:28.800 and like, you know, I wish they'd go the whole, 1.00

00:28:30.320 these, you know, mutilators of the flesh, these Judaizers, 1.00

00:28:33.160 I wish they would just go the whole way and emasculate themselves. 0.99

00:28:36.700 And we know he's not being literal.

00:28:38.640 It's sarcasm.

00:28:40.940 Is there any Christian category for sarcasm? We say there is. That's sarcasm and satire, those kinds of things are types of polemical language. 1.00

00:28:50.020 And so what you're saying is that the same Paul who wrote this command, it's not a suggestion, a command to Timothy, we should assume that the apostle of Christ exercised, he followed this same command himself.

00:29:05.300 He's not giving the command to Timothy and not doing it himself. And so then we have to go back.

00:29:10.320 That's so helpful to say, all right, so this is what Paul says.

00:29:12.860 This is the prescription.

00:29:14.220 Now we can go back and look at descriptive texts and put them in this mold and say, so

00:29:20.460 what Paul did there must have been the Lord's servant, not being quarrelsome, kind to everyone,

00:29:25.880 able to teach, patiently enduring.

00:29:27.660 So this is Paul patiently enduring evil when he says these guys should just chop it off.

00:29:34.240 That is an example of correcting his opponents with gentleness.

00:29:37.820 So that's super helpful.

00:29:38.480 And it just got me thinking about one more thing.

00:29:39.900 And I would love your thoughts on this.

00:29:42.240 But for me, I think in my pastoral ministry, I've had some encounters where I've realized,

00:29:48.840 I think one of the hangups, one of the misconceptions, I think it's a misconception.

00:29:53.020 You might disagree with me, but I think one of the misconceptions is when we think of

00:29:56.360 the fruit of the spirit, I've noticed that a lot of Christians view the fruit of the

00:30:00.380 spirit as though it were a toolbox and each individual fruit of the spirit is like an

00:30:05.600 individual tool.

00:30:06.480 And so each circumstance, situation in life may call for a hammer or a ratchet or a screwdriver.

00:30:15.060 And because of that, a lot of Christians, they'll look at Paul, for instance. 0.79

00:30:19.780 So here's the pushback, playing the devil's advocate.

00:30:22.200 They would look at Paul and they say, yeah, Paul says gentleness.

00:30:26.020 But then what he was doing in that moment with the Galatians, or when he's saying, who bewitched you?

00:30:30.440 Again, he doesn't think they're actually bewitched. 0.99

00:30:32.620 He's like, you must be under a spell to be this dumb. 0.99

00:30:36.480 I was just there. 1.00

00:30:37.780 I was just there.

00:30:38.960 Preach Christ, him crucified, preach the gospel.

00:30:41.720 And for you to be so quick, I am astonished, right?

00:30:45.260 Is it getting that sarcastic?

00:30:46.460 I'm like, wow, guys, good job.

00:30:48.920 I'm amazed.

00:30:50.260 I've never, in all my ministry, I've never seen people desert the gospel so quickly.

00:30:53.740 So much so, I feel like Harry Potter must have been here and done a number on you guys

00:30:57.040 because something, this is insane.

00:30:59.080 And so that kind of language, that's strong language.

00:31:01.340 We would call that harsh a lot of times in our nice Mr. Rogers Christian world.

00:31:05.520 But Paul's doing that, and so the Christian that I've dealt with in pastoral ministry, they would sometimes say, well, Paul is using one fruit of the Spirit, or maybe two or three.

00:31:15.720 Maybe he's doing a combo power, you know, whatever, like two or three fruit of the Spirit, but that's not gentleness.

00:31:21.160 And so my point is, Christians seem to have this framework that the fruit of the Spirit are individual tools in a toolbox, and we're using one or maybe two at a time for different circumstances.

00:31:32.720 where my thought, and you may disagree with me,

00:31:35.040 but my thought is that Jesus, for instance,

00:31:38.560 He came to show us who is God.

00:31:41.160 He also came to show us who is man, the perfect man.

00:31:45.180 And so my thought is that there was never a moment

00:31:46.960 in the life of Christ that He was not perfectly exuding

00:31:50.720 all the fruit of the Spirit simultaneously

00:31:53.880 to the greatest degree,

00:31:56.560 which means when He's flipping over tables

00:31:58.520 with the money changers in John chapter 2,

00:32:01.720 he is he's showing us zeal for his father's house with perfect gentleness there's never so so would

00:32:09.040 you agree agree with that assessment that the fruit of the spirit in the life of the christian

00:32:12.720 is it's a package deal it's a fruit basket if you will and not into it like let me take an apple

00:32:18.400 uh this this moment calls for an orange what what do you think about that principle

00:32:22.080 i actually i fully agree actually i think the the word there for fruit is singular um that's and so

00:32:31.060 So I think in many, and actually, I think rather than thinking of it as, yeah, grapes and bananas and apples, I think what we're actually talking about is one fruit that manifests in all of these different dynamics.

00:32:44.600 You know, sort of, you know, I don't know, you take a fruit, take an orange, take an apple.

00:32:49.180 It has all kinds of different texture and qualities to it.

00:32:52.980 And I think those fruit, what we call the fruit of the spirit are just, I think, the qualities of the one fruit that the spirit gives.

00:33:02.360 The one, well, the one spirit, we could even say it's fruit of the spirit.

00:33:05.960 It's manifestation. It's proof of the pudding. The pudding is the spirit.

00:33:10.540 And so if you have the spirit, this is what the spirit looks like.

00:33:13.500 And in the same way that we don't want to, I think of like, you know, the dual natures of Christ.

00:33:18.780 I think of, you know, our theology proper in terms of the sun.

00:33:23.560 And in the same way that we don't want to get into some of the Eutychian and Nestorian heresies and this idea that we don't want to, we never want to truncate the divine essence.

00:33:33.780 We never want to chop up God.

00:33:36.420 I just think of the confession.

00:33:38.040 In your case, Westminster.

00:33:39.120 In my case, 1689.

00:33:40.260 But, you know, you guys copied us.

00:33:42.740 now we copied you but but the point is either way who is who is god a most pure spirit without body

00:33:48.960 parts or passions and so god is not dissectable and and if the fruit of the spirit is simply the

00:33:56.300 manifestation of god god the holy spirit and and if god is not composed of parts um then right and

00:34:05.000 so in that sense i and i know that may be confusing for some of our listeners but like god is a simple

00:34:08.700 being in philosophical terms. There's nothing simple about God in a literal sense. He's far

00:34:14.400 more complex than you and I. But we are not simple beings as human beings in the sense that

00:34:19.740 if I, you know, back to the amputee illustration that you gave, if a doctor chops off my leg,

00:34:25.760 I'm still Joel Webin. But there's nothing I can chop off of God and him still be God.

00:34:30.460 All that is in God is God. And so all the fruit of the Spirit is, all of that is a manifestation

00:34:36.240 of god and and you can't have one without the other if you got god you got all of god and and

00:34:43.560 so if if we believe in the priest of all believers and if we believe in the indwelling ministry of

00:34:49.020 the holy spirit indwelling each saint each believer we don't have part of the spirit we

00:34:54.600 got the whole the whole spirit and we got the whole spirit we got all all the all the fruits

00:35:00.880 i think we could even say that they're all connected too in the sense that i mean and

00:35:04.560 this is the way it is with God. I mean, God himself is all connected. It's not like, you know,

00:35:09.060 you can attack the spirit and not attack the father, or you can't attack the son and not

00:35:13.060 attack the father and the spirit. I think the fruit functions the same way. If you're lacking

00:35:18.140 gentleness, you're actually lacking all the rest of it. You can't say I'm being loving,

00:35:23.580 but not gentle, or I'm being gentle, but not joyful. No, if you're lacking joy, then you're

00:35:29.080 also, it's also affecting all the rest of the fruit. You're not actually being fully self-controlled.

00:35:33.080 You're not being kind. You're not being patient. So they hang together absolutely the entire time.

00:35:40.160 That's really helpful. All right. So one more question, and then we have a couple bonus questions.

00:35:45.520 So similar to what you guys do with the Fight, Laugh, Feast Network, for our prescribers, we call them responders, our club members, we have some bonus questions.

00:35:54.620 And so one more question, though, on the main interview.

00:35:56.880 So earlier you were talking about, because it really is a prophetic, there's that shepherding

00:36:00.920 role of pastors in the local church and shepherding the sheep.

00:36:03.920 But there is that prophetic component where when I stand into the pulpit, right, the man

00:36:09.780 melts away.

00:36:10.480 It's the message.

00:36:11.900 And when I'm preaching God's word with a confidence, not myself, not in the flesh,

00:36:16.040 but because God wrote a book, I'm preaching God's word and I'm feeding the sheep.

00:36:21.000 I'm praising the Lord.

00:36:22.320 I'm feeding the sheep.

00:36:23.260 But I'm also prophesying to nations and governments and kingdoms.

00:36:30.240 And I know you believe in all this.

00:36:32.280 I've learned a lot of this from you.

00:36:34.380 And so I'm doing that.

00:36:35.720 So there is that prophetic piece. 0.62

00:36:37.260 And so you said like with that, you know, like whether it's, you correct me if I'm wrong, I think it's Amos who like kind of just like leads off with your women are like cows, right?

00:36:48.480 Like very polemical language or Elijah with the prophets of Baal. 0.74

00:36:52.380 you know, like maybe you should slash yourselves a little bit more, you know, because your God

00:36:56.720 just isn't paying attention. That kind of language, you said that like we use that for

00:37:03.220 false prophets. So I want to pick up on that piece. Like false prophets and wolves. You said

00:37:09.580 wolves. So my question is, you know, and Jesus does it with the Pharisees, but here's the thing,

00:37:14.620 the Pharisees, they're not regenerate. They weren't, you know, like maybe Nicodemus later on,

00:37:19.620 of, you know, I don't know. But most of the Pharisees that he's using that polemical language

00:37:25.220 with are not, we always think of Pharisees today and we think of these are people in the church.

00:37:30.380 And I always have a problem with that because Pharisees weren't in the church. They were not

00:37:33.840 followers of Jesus. They were enemies of Christ. They may have been religious rulers for their

00:37:38.620 time, but they were anti-Christ. And so my question is in the church. So the wolf is one thing,

00:37:44.940 the false prophet false teacher is another is there a category for christians using polemical 0.65

00:37:50.500 language with brothers with one another is there ever a place so certainly there's a place for

00:37:56.480 correction but there is there a place for types of polemical language like satire or sarcasm

00:38:03.240 right and that's not your go-to we don't maybe start there but like this guy has not been

00:38:07.980 listening to me there's public discourse a lot of other christians are watching like a paul and

00:38:12.360 Peter kind of thing, like people can be led astray by Peter's actions. And so in this public sphere

00:38:17.780 with, you know, like a blog discourse or a podcast or something like that, this leader who should

00:38:23.280 know better, I've tried to talk to him offline. He's ignoring me. He's not setting the record

00:38:27.900 straight. And so now I'm going to turn up the heat a little bit. But I do think he's a brother

00:38:33.900 in Christ. Is there a category for that? Yeah. Yes. And let me back up a little bit. I think

00:38:42.120 the um the point about the pharisees and sadducees um yeah yeah what do you think about that i i grant

00:38:49.320 your point although i think in in jesus day i don't think people have could make those distinctions

00:38:55.320 very clearly so i think jesus was another rabbi um among many rabbis was a you know was a an elder

00:39:03.040 so you know so to speak and a teacher in israel so i think the reason why we have such a poor

00:39:08.220 view of the Pharisees today is actually because Jesus did such a great job, took it, you know,

00:39:13.040 did a hatchet job on the name Pharisee. So, you know, ever since, nobody wants to be a Pharisee.

00:39:18.320 You're right. I think, but I think that actually speaks to the point still, because I think even

00:39:24.960 wolves, we're told, appear in sheep's clothing. And so one of the ways that sometimes the

00:39:31.960 faithful shepherds drive away the wolves is by exposing the fact that they're wearing,

00:39:36.000 you know, a sheepskin. They're not really believers. They're not really faithful pastors.

00:39:43.440 And then I think on the flip side, I think is what you're getting to is I do think there are

00:39:47.300 truly regenerate Christians and leaders and pastors who will be in heaven who are still

00:39:53.860 really wrong about certain things. And that needs to be addressed. And I think there's just,

00:40:01.200 you know, there are a number of factors that need to be held together. The short answer is yes. And

00:40:09.620 again, I would point to even Paul. He has some really harsh words for Judaizers. But in one of

00:40:16.800 his letters, he actually mentions a few of his friends who are of the circumcision party.

00:40:23.460 yeah so paul was able to have um really hardcore polemics against the circumcision party

00:40:31.300 um but there were apparently some people who were still sort of associated with that who were

00:40:36.960 nevertheless working with paul and paul was willing to work with them or what he says to

00:40:42.360 the corinthian church he recognizes infants babes in christ so he's saying you're brothers and then

00:40:48.260 And then he's like, later on, he's like, you know, we are fools, but you are wise.

00:40:53.980 You know, we are, you know, and like he's being sarcastic, you know, he's that, you know, but with, but he's already, he's already affirmed them multiple times by that point in the letter that they're in Christ.

00:41:05.740 I think when it comes to, so I think there, and then you were kind of giving an example of maybe, you know, a famous Christian leader who you've.

00:41:12.280 Yeah, that was my thought.

00:41:13.060 I mean, there's that's that's one example. And I think, you know, some sometimes the distance and, you know, the ability to, you know, whatever, whether you're writing articles or responding to each other that way or, you know, a podcast or whatever.

00:41:26.100 I mean, what you want to do is contextualize it in terms of, like, if I'm going to take a shot, if I'm going to say, come on, brother, you know better than that, and use some bit of polemics or sarcasm or so on, I want to do everything I can to nevertheless still contextualize it and say, you know, with either respect, this is an older teacher in the church, you know, he's done good work for the kingdom.

00:41:53.340 I want there to be a sparkle in my eye, so to speak, in terms of saying, as far as I can tell, I mean, I'm going to heaven with this guy.

00:42:04.200 And so I want that to be clear, even though I think you're not being helpful over here.

00:42:10.340 And then bring it home.

00:42:12.400 I mean, I think where you want to, you know, pastors have to be careful within their own congregation.

00:42:18.420 I would say there's still a place for, you know, sort of chiding, even, you know, rebuke or correction and so on, and being playful.

00:42:29.040 But I would want to sort of, Paul talks about that sort of pastoral ministry as a fatherly ministry.

00:42:34.660 And so – but I think there ought to be a friendly, familiar banter in a home between a father and his children and between you and your wife that's friendly, that's full of love and kindness and joy, but is not so wooden that you can't say, you know, what are you doing?

00:42:59.740 um and and i and i think you know it's when the kids are little it's a little bit more black and

00:43:06.320 white and it needs to be that way because they're they don't know the categories yet um but i but i

00:43:11.640 think as they grow a little older especially my you know my i've got uh three or two or three of

00:43:17.020 my kids are in the teenage years now um uh i have to ask my wife how old they are um but they're uh

00:43:23.360 um, but I've got three in that sort of middle school, high school range. And, and, you know,

00:43:29.980 more of more and more, um, I'm, I'm not correcting them anymore. Like I did when they were five,

00:43:35.300 right. Um, where I was pulling them aside and it was a fairly, you know, sort of stern black and 1.00

00:43:40.300 white, you know, like that's wrong. You did it, you know, so on. They know the categories now.

00:43:45.420 And so, and now a lot of what I'm doing is sort of a friendly, you know, you know, really that's,

00:43:51.280 That's how you're going to talk to your sister right now, really?

00:43:55.920 I'm making fun of them, but it's in a context of deep love and respect, and they know that, and I know that they know that because they're laughing back at me and hustling to go make it right with their sibling or whatever.

00:44:10.320 So I think there ought to be slightly differing voices for different contexts, but I think you are using, in some ways, the same muscle.

00:44:21.820 It's a polemical muscle, but it might have a slightly different incarnation.

00:44:27.140 The last thing I would say is just remember that the enemy really is the devil.

00:44:31.340 The enemy really is the sin.

00:44:33.260 And yes, the Bible does describe people as enemies sometimes.

00:44:37.040 And so I think we do have enemies of the gospel and we have enemies, um, even sometimes in the church and so on. Um, but, um, but don't forget that, um, they're really, you know, this side of, of heaven, this side of glory, um, we're, um, we're still fighting to win the man.

00:44:56.100 um uh and and that doesn't um and so that needs to be kept in mind or it's it's not just um you

00:45:04.080 know i've got to be right and you've got to be proven wrong but it's there's always a sense of

00:45:08.800 um back to the the the timothy passage and paul's exhortation to timothy that um you know perhaps

00:45:15.760 god will grant them repentance and they'll be rescued from the slavery of the devil um and

00:45:20.560 and even when we're talking about a true regenerate brother who's not really under the

00:45:25.480 dominion of the devil, there can still be deception from the devil. There can still be

00:45:30.280 just things that, you know, it's not as good as it should be. And you want to win them over

00:45:35.840 from that. That's right. Yeah, I completely agree. The 2 Timothy 2 passage is helpful,

00:45:42.740 win the man, and keeping that always in our sights. And then I think it's also helpful

00:45:48.680 for Christians because the win the man sometimes, well, first, I think we just, we need to repent

00:45:53.320 of our our arrogance so some christians they'll hear that let's say when the man all right well

00:45:58.020 like there are some scenarios toby where it's just that man has made it abundantly clear that

00:46:04.400 he's he's not going to be one and so i think our first response counter to that point would be um

00:46:10.400 yeah but that man it does not have autonomous freedom he's not in charge of whether or not

00:46:15.820 he's going to be one uh he might be one sol didn't look very winnable on the road to damascus

00:46:20.920 that's right exactly so so that doesn't mean we quit because i think some christians would just

00:46:24.680 say all right you know you're saying that you're trying to win the man um but it sounds like you're

00:46:30.460 just arguing sounds like you're just fighting and uh it's like well this this man could still be one

00:46:35.020 and then i i just wanted to broaden and say there's winning the man there's also winning

00:46:38.700 the the men like meaning that um i think of like so there's paul you know talking about

00:46:43.700 how how to address your direct opponent winning the opponent himself but there's also apollos

00:46:50.120 And I think about, you know, he argued powerfully is what the text says.

00:46:55.500 He argued powerfully.

00:46:57.240 And we don't necessarily get a description of whether or not the people he was arguing with, if any of them were won over.

00:47:02.440 But it says that the saints who were there in that area, who are watching this debate, this argument going back and forth, Apollos, because he was such a powerful arguer from the scriptures and powerful, I can only assume, rhetoric and all these other guys were encouraged.

00:47:24.140 And you see that, man, you see that when a faithful apologist, you know, takes a public debate against an atheist.

00:47:31.640 And it's like, how many times does the atheist at the end of the debate fall on his knees, tear his clothes, repent, you know, maybe not super often.

00:47:40.880 Number one, still, God could win that man.

00:47:43.060 Maybe he comes to faith later.

00:47:44.160 And but then number two, all those Christians who have been beaten down by intellectual liberals that they live with, you know, and been made fun of.

00:47:53.580 We don't know their situation.

00:47:54.600 Like they've been made fun of for believing in a literal six day creation. 0.99

00:47:58.840 And they've been a young earth and been made to feel because the Orthodox, the culture is so it's just, you know, and so they've been made to feel stupid. 0.97

00:48:07.780 And then all of a sudden a Titan, right? 0.98

00:48:10.580 I mean, God gives us Titan.

00:48:12.120 Paul was a Titan.

00:48:13.060 Apollos was a Titan.

00:48:13.880 Calvin was a Titan.

00:48:15.380 Augustine was a Titan.

00:48:16.780 And these men, we still have Titans today.

00:48:19.200 You know, I think of Bonson.

00:48:20.500 Bonson was it. 0.95

00:48:21.260 And just mopped the floor with that enemy of God, at least at the moment. 0.76

00:48:25.460 Maybe he comes around later, but just mops the floor with them.

00:48:28.280 And maybe the mop isn't one, but all the people watching the show, 0.99

00:48:33.380 all those Christians who've just been beaten down and felt stupid for the last, 0.98

00:48:36.660 you know, 10 years, all of a sudden they're like, whoa, like we're right. 0.99

00:48:41.720 We're on the right side.

00:48:42.760 We're on the right side of history. It doesn't matter what CNN keeps saying.

00:48:46.080 We are actually on the right side of history, and God gives us titans, I think, sometimes.

00:48:51.160 He gives us Davids because everybody else is shaking, and their knees are knocking.

00:48:56.160 And then all of a sudden, the people of God become ferocious because they realize the battle can actually be won.

00:49:01.220 It's winnable, and we have God on our side.

00:49:04.120 I think God taught me that lesson most starkly when, for several years, I participated in open-air preaching on our local university campus.

00:49:17.460 That's probably fine.

00:49:19.140 I never would have dreamed that I was going to be that guy.

00:49:26.000 And it's sort of a fun, long story that I won't tell right now of how I believe God tricked me into it.

00:49:32.040 um but um but there is always sort of that um part of you and then there's the objection for

00:49:38.600 many christians that you know open air preaching is um you know belligerent mean angry um you know

00:49:45.800 are you really you know is it really fruitful are you really being winsome and um winsome i'm sick

00:49:51.940 of the word winsome right and uh but but the point you're making absolutely not only winning the man

00:49:57.980 but winning the men, winning the audience. I mean, um, God taught me that overwhelmingly

00:50:04.880 through that experience where, um, you know, you would get some heckler or somebody who was mad

00:50:11.540 at God or you or whatever, and start yelling at you and calling you all the names and everything

00:50:17.340 else. And there you would be starting to argue with them. And, um, and, and then a crowd appears

00:50:23.960 because you know who doesn't want to watch you know a big loud argument right and and but there

00:50:31.520 you are in with an opportunity to show the love of christ um to preach the gospel uh to return

00:50:38.880 um blessing for cursing yeah um and there's a big crowd of people there who in who would never

00:50:45.320 darken the doorway of a church that's right um and they're seeing it live in person um this is

00:50:51.720 what the gospel does. And there was time after time of that happening. And I have stories I can

00:51:03.060 tell of instances where the guy who, one year a guy showed up and argued with me almost every

00:51:09.360 single Friday, called me names, everything, had a rough past and everything. And it was at times

00:51:17.440 sort of like, uh, not him again. And, and yet, um, and would never, you know, I was always saying,

00:51:26.520 Hey, can I buy you lunch? Can I, can I go take you out for a drink? Um, I'd love to get to know

00:51:31.000 you and, and no, I'm not telling you, you know, I'm not telling you my name. I don't want to have

00:51:34.700 anything to do with you. You know, you're just an angry preacher and I hate you. And when, you know, 1.00

00:51:40.900 for, for like three months like this, uh, and, and then at the end of the three months, there was

00:51:46.260 one time where he was going after me. And then another younger kid showed up and was doing the

00:51:54.380 same thing. And about an hour later, because the other younger kid had been mocking and was even

00:52:00.700 more foul and more filthy than the other guy who'd been there all semester, the older guy who'd been

00:52:06.980 mocking me all semester walks up and puts out his hand and says, I'm really sorry about that other

00:52:11.740 guy. And introduces himself and says, I'd be willing to go out to lunch with you sometime.

00:52:20.060 Wow. And, uh, and, and, but meanwhile, and the thing that really, I mean, not only did it sort

00:52:25.020 of, this one man was eventually won over, but then I realized also that one man who, well,

00:52:31.340 he wasn't completely won over, but at least won over enough to have lunch. Um, but, uh, but then

00:52:36.640 what i realized was oh and that man um was god's gift to my preaching ministry for three months

00:52:44.060 such that every single friday god made sure that i had an audience yeah you're right you're

00:52:50.300 absolutely right by by sending that enemy and and so this is one of those things with polemics

00:52:56.960 with not being thought of as being nice and so on is that um you know i mean the book of acts

00:53:02.760 could be described as evangelism by riot yep right but but by my by my count i think there's

00:53:10.200 12 or 13 public disturbances maybe 14 in the book of acts right um uh where there's a riot

00:53:16.940 you know there's a mob uh there's an imprisonment there's an arrest there's an you know i think

00:53:22.780 there's 13 or 14 of them and um i believe all but one of them luke includes a sort of summary

00:53:29.620 statement somewhere in the story, just so that we don't get the wrong idea. Most of the gospel

00:53:35.760 centered ministries that we have around us, I mean, would cringe after every single one,

00:53:41.920 because Paul was in, you know, Peter was in the paper because he got arrested, and Peter and John

00:53:46.120 were in the paper because they broke out of prison. And then Paul's in the paper because of

00:53:50.220 this. And then Paul, you know, it's like, bad press, bad press, bad press. But Luke, who's

00:53:54.700 telling the story gives us these comments all through saying, and there were 3,000 added to

00:53:59.720 their number. And there were many, many of the leading women of the city believed. Many of the

00:54:04.280 nobles of the city were, you know, converted. Many of the believers in the city were greatly

00:54:08.740 encouraged. Over and over and over, that's the story. And it's not because they were just fighting

00:54:16.260 and being belligerent or being jerks. It's because they allowed the light of the gospel 0.99

00:54:21.700 to collide with the darkness of the world. And in that moment, preached Christ, loved their enemies,

00:54:30.320 did good to those who persecuted them. And sometimes I tell my people when I'm preaching

00:54:36.020 to them that, you know, I believe in the command to love your enemies, but that means that you

00:54:42.740 must have enemies to love. And there are far too many Christians who are terrified of having 0.99

00:54:49.380 enemies yeah you're right who are your enemies they have no enemies yeah you said the gospel

00:54:54.540 center right the gospel center churches i i just it just got me thinking you're talking about like

00:54:59.440 paul you know and the apostles getting thrown in jail and riot evangelism not relational evangelism

00:55:04.300 not to say there's no category but that's that's not the main category the main category is not

00:55:08.880 that's at least as far as biblical examples it's riot evangelism and with that i just think of like

00:55:14.020 what happened to paul uh i i'm just trying to think of how how many gospel-centered churches

00:55:20.780 today um would say that he's not qualified to be an elder you don't have a good reputation with

00:55:25.640 outsiders right you're quarrelsome um i i think i think paul would be voted out by the vast majority

00:55:33.420 of congregations presbyteries i like i think he would be i think he'd be removed and so yeah we've

00:55:39.820 we've got to get back, um, these, these proper categories.

00:55:43.960 And I think you've helped us a lot with that. So let me, uh, real quick,

00:55:47.000 let me wet our appetite for, um, our club members, our responders.

00:55:50.940 These are the bonus questions. Uh,

00:55:52.940 Toby and I are going to come back on for another, uh, 10,

00:55:55.540 15 minutes or so and address these. Um, so one question, I've got two,

00:55:59.680 number one, uh, what is your stance on mass with COVID-19?

00:56:04.960 And why do some pastors seem to be frustrated with you on this subject?

00:56:10.200 Toby can decline to answer these things, but I'm just throwing them out there.

00:56:13.680 We'll see what he says, see what he's comfortable sharing.

00:56:16.080 Number two is, do you think some evangelical leaders have wrongly categorized the ways in which local churches should respond to COVID-19 and the ensuing lockdowns?

00:56:27.500 Do you think this has been the ways that churches should respond?

00:56:30.200 Do you think some evangelical leaders have wrongly categorized this as a matter of Christian liberty?

00:56:35.480 That's one of my concerns.

00:56:36.480 I thought it'd be really fun to briefly chat about that.

00:56:39.740 I think some things are being thrown in the category of Christian liberty that I feel are more so, no, that's a commandment, clear commandment from Christ.

00:56:46.620 So I want to hear your thoughts on how much of a spectrum of Christian liberty do we really have when it comes to churches, whether we should gather or not, how we should gather.

00:56:55.360 and your position more particularly on mass

00:56:59.040 and why some people in the evangelical sphere right now

00:57:03.760 seem to not be very happy with you, Toby.

00:57:07.520 There's some people that just don't,

00:57:08.580 they're not happy with you.

00:57:10.140 All right, so that's it.

00:57:11.220 So let's go ahead and conclude our episode.

00:57:13.320 As we conclude, Toby,

00:57:14.300 let people know how they can follow you,

00:57:16.240 your ministry,

00:57:16.840 keep up with the great work that you're doing.

00:57:20.260 I am at,

00:57:21.380 you can find my work with CrossPolitik

00:57:23.400 at crosspolitic.com.

00:57:25.360 All our shows are there. There's also an app that's called the Fight, Laugh Beast, Fight Laugh Beast Network. If you want to download the app, find all the other shows that are going on there. I'm at Christ Church in Moscow. Our website is ChristKirk, K-I-R-K dot com. And so sermons and various things are up there. And then lastly, I blog at TobyJSumter.com.

00:57:52.460 great thanks Toby bless you brother for your ministry we're grateful for you

00:57:56.300 thanks Joel thanks for tuning in to Right Response Ministries

00:58:00.320 as a reminder all of our resources should only be used as a supplement and

00:58:04.280 not a substitute for the local church be sure to check out our website

00:58:07.560 rightresponseministries.com or download our free app there you can find

00:58:12.040 out how to join our team by supporting us monthly as a responder

00:58:15.720 as a responder you will receive a Soli Deo Gloria t-shirt

00:58:19.900 and a physical copy of Pastor Joel's book, Am I Truly Saved?

00:58:24.140 Also, you'll receive an ongoing 10% discount on all items in the store

00:58:28.760 as well as access to free digital copies of all current and future books in the store.

00:58:33.640 Thank you for your generous support.

The NXR Podcast - December 10, 2020

THEOLOGY APPLIED - Christian Polemics and the Absurdity of “Niceness”

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