00:00:38.080And we're going to be doing our best, by God's grace, to debunk the absurdity, the fallacy of the 11th commandment, Christian niceness.0.90
00:00:48.520And so I want to go ahead and just dive right in.0.78
00:00:50.720So the first thing that we'll do is just give you a moment, Toby, to just tell our listeners a little bit about yourself.
00:02:16.640I've benefited a ton from what you guys do.
00:02:19.000So let's go ahead and just dive right in.
00:02:20.380The first question, I've got some questions written down.
00:02:22.040The first one that I have is, could you define, and I know it's hard because people have different definitions,
00:02:26.980but what is niceness in the way that you would define it?
00:02:31.180And maybe more importantly, in the way that you think the average Christian, the average evangelical today would define niceness.
00:02:38.580And based off of that definition, your definition, but also the average Christian's definition of niceness, how is that contrary to the Bible?
00:02:47.100Why is niceness not a Christian virtue?
00:02:49.720Yeah, well, I think maybe the closest thing to a Christian virtue that is the closest relative, or maybe the real version of what I think Christians sort of assume when they say niceness, would be what the Bible calls kindness.
00:09:29.120Would you agree that truth, it seems to me truth necessarily, by virtue of the truth, it necessarily confronts anything that is not of the truth.0.94
00:09:39.200And so to withhold, to me, for a Christian to intentionally withhold, there's no way, I should say it like this, there's no way to withhold confrontation without suppressing truth.0.91
00:09:51.400And so for me, I would say it seems like one of the differences between niceness and kindness is, if we got really specific, niceness is kindness with deceit.0.97
00:10:10.560Yeah, I think there's a couple of old King James words that I think we need to recover that are connected to this.
00:10:19.520but one of them is the word dissembling. Um, and I, and I think that, um, I think many Christians1.00
00:10:25.440are full of dissembling and the idea is that it's, uh, and the other word I'm thinking of is,1.00
00:10:30.120is flattery. Um, but, um, but I think Christians are full of flattery in that, and it's not so0.98
00:10:36.660much that you're constantly, you know, singing the high praises of everyone all the time,0.96
00:10:41.000but a more subtle form of flattery is that we are constantly pretending that everything's fine.
00:10:46.220Right. Because we're afraid of coming in contact with the enemy. But but I think to your point on confrontation, absolutely. I think if we are light, then light confronts darkness. It exposes darkness. Right.
00:11:03.980And, you know, I mean, Jesus gave us the example of, you know, hiding your light under a bushel, for example, you know, on purpose, because he knows, he knew our hearts and knew that we, the darkness hates the light, because it exposes their deeds done in darkness.
00:11:22.980And and so absolutely it's confrontational in the same way that light always confronts darkness. And and I think you're absolutely right. It's the niceness quote unquote niceness is is full of lies and deception.
00:11:36.900It reminds me of I think you spoke on this before you guys with a cross policy, but it's it's an example specific example would be like the pronoun hospitality with J.D. Greer that just the idea of, well, this is one way we can exercise hospitality or kindness, because that's what hospitality is entertaining strangers, but with with kindness and generosity.
00:11:57.640And so J.D. Greer, he's just building this false pretense that, you know, that you could somehow exercise genuine Holy Spirit wrought kindness, but with deceit.
00:12:12.480And, you know, and I, yeah, it's this idea that I can entertain somebody's, I mean, somebody's sick.
00:12:21.680And, and I'm going, I'm affirming that every time I say she, when, when it should be he, I'm affirming a sickness and we're calling that kindness. Like we wouldn't do that with, with anything. I think of, I think you guys have said this before also, but like anorexia, right? Like we, if a, if a woman who weighs, you know, 84 pounds and it's just, you know, just skin and bones is talking about how fat she is.
00:12:46.140I would never say to that woman, yeah, yeah, you really are fat.0.99
00:12:50.820And if you could like, I mean, if I mean, if we did that in our culture today, everyone would say you're a monster.1.00
00:12:56.560You're a monster. But but we but we have found people.
00:13:00.420But now we say that's body shaming. Yes. Right. Right.
00:13:03.960And so, yeah. And but now we're doing the very same thing, not not with somebody who's starving themselves, but somebody who's at least mulling over the idea of mutilating themselves.
00:13:14.360Like, how is that any better? How is that any, but we would call that, and I only bring it up just to say that's an example of a very well-known, you know, evangelical pastor advocating for, and I think he would say, you know, he called it pronoun hospitality, but I think he would put it into that category of kindness.
00:13:35.360And I think you and I both would say that's not kindness.
00:13:38.980It may be niceness, but that's precisely the problem.
00:13:41.460That's the distinction we're trying to show between niceness and kindness.
00:13:46.380So if I could just kind of move us along in the conversation, what about polemics then?
00:13:50.920So we've kind of, all right, we've defined, you've helped us with niceness and why it's a problem
00:13:54.780and how that differs from the actual fruit of the Spirit, kindness.
00:13:57.440But what does it mean for a Christian to be polemical?
00:14:00.660And is this something that every Christian should engage in?
00:14:03.320And what are good polemics and what what's so in the same way, niceness, the distinction between niceness and kindness.0.99
00:14:08.480What's the distinction between Christian polemics and just being a jerk?0.99
00:14:12.460Right. Yeah. Unlike the fruit of the spirit, which is for every Christian.1.00
00:14:19.020So every Christian, you don't have the option of opting out of any of the fruit of the spirit.
00:14:22.980You have the Holy Spirit and he's working all that spirit, all those fruits into you and you need to be growing in them.
00:14:28.340Unlike that, I would say that the practice of polemics is not necessarily something that every Christian is called to.
00:14:37.840I think that you're called to always tell the truth, and sometimes somebody might think you're being polemical because you're telling the truth in, you know, there you are, and everyone says, don't you love the emperor's new clothes?
00:14:52.980And you're saying, well, I think he's naked, guys. And you might get written up in the newspaper as being polemical when all you were doing was, you know, asserting the bare minimal truth.
00:15:07.560So, you know, we're fast reaching the point where many or most Christians might be accused of being polemical, radicals, whatever.
00:15:16.620But I would say in general, not every Christian is called to it.
00:15:22.240So what I mean by polemics is sort of a public prophetic-like ministry that is intentionally attempting to call out the leaders of evil, leaders of darkness, and those who are wolves and false prophets and so on.0.53
00:15:46.720It's intentionally confrontational and sort of the, I'm calling you out, I want to do battle with you, spiritually speaking, biblically speaking, and typically highly verbal and rhetorical.
00:16:04.420So, you know, I'm thinking of examples like Elijah and the showdown of the prophets of Baal and Ahab.0.87
00:16:16.520Many of the many of, you know, Ezekiel's ministry is polemical in the sense that he is going to town, rebuking and denouncing the Israelites and their idolatry and their sin.
00:16:30.580Many of the other prophets have very polemical ministries as well.
00:16:36.320Jesus had polemical elements to his ministry.
00:16:40.940He will tell stories meant to cause the priests and Pharisees to be ashamed of their hypocrisies.
00:16:59.160The writer of most of the New Testament letters will mock the Judaizers for going back to the law, calls them dogs, says they're mutilators of the flesh, asks, you know, when you're going to go circumcise somebody, why don't you just go the whole way and emasculate them?0.62
00:17:21.540And so all of those would be examples, though, of what I would describe as polemics, where it's a combination of sort of Jeremiah, which is what we get from Jeremiah the prophet.
00:17:38.900It's a confrontational rebuke, married to, I think, or what ought to be married to a deeply, actually joyful love of the truth, which will come out sometimes, though, in a certain kind of godly mockery, a holy denunciation that, you know, mimics God's own laughter in heaven.
00:18:09.860In Psalm 2, it says that, you know, the nations rage and plot vain things, and God sits in heaven and laughs and holds them in derision because they reject him and reject his Messiah.
00:18:22.880So that's what I mean by polemics.0.96
00:18:24.620And I think not all Christians are called to it.
00:18:27.420I don't even think all pastors are called to it.
00:18:30.520Um, but I would say, but I would say that I think that, um, all Christian, all pastors have, um, are, um, have a calling that's, um, at least closer to it in the sense that they really do have to preach all of God's word.
00:18:45.940Um, and they can't, they can't skip over, uh, the dicey parts, uh, uh, and they have to proclaim them faithfully and courageously.
00:18:54.480But I would say, you know, maybe I'd say to the extent that all sermons are sort of an echo of prophetic ministry, there's an element in them.
00:19:04.760But I think there are some pastors that are faithful generals in the army, faithful men who aren't necessarily going to be the out in front hollering at the prophets of Baal and asking them if their God's still in the bathroom or not.
00:19:18.860Um, but I think many pastors are called to it, um, and, um, and other Christian leaders.
00:20:27.160And I think some of that is just the niceness.1.00
00:20:30.120It's just kind of the good old boy Christian thing.0.52
00:20:34.260But I think the gospel-centered Christian tribe, if you will, has tried to justify that mindset theologically.
00:20:43.820And so with this gospel-centered everything mentality, I think I've heard a lot of Christians and a lot of pastors say, well, the gospel, it's a shame-free zone.
00:20:57.200Whereas I always think, you know, the gospel, you know, God, the law of God, God loves his law just as much as he loves his gospel.
00:21:06.640And both, he loves them because they reveal his own nature.
00:21:13.980And the gospel also reveals God's mercy, his kindness, who God is.
00:21:17.900And so for me, when I see the law and gospel working together, it actually, it's not a shame-free zone.
00:21:25.220it actually produces shame. And what the gospel, to me, what the cross does is the gospel doesn't
00:21:31.760provide a shame-free zone. It provides a place where shame drives people to where our shame
00:21:37.320ultimately can be dealt with. And so like when God comes looking for Adam in the garden,
00:21:42.740he doesn't say you have no reason to be ashamed or the garden is a shame-free zone.
00:21:48.080Don't be, you know, but rather it's Adam's trying to cover his own nakedness. He's trying, he's
00:21:52.900doing a you know a poor job of trying to deal with his own shame and and god kind of leans in
00:21:59.160and yeah you you should be ashamed let but let me cover that let me let me take that shame and
00:22:06.320so i just think we we struggle with polemics because polemics it's more than just what we
00:22:11.180we started off talking about you know the you know the opposite of niceness just truth and truth
00:22:16.360being by its own virtue confrontational but uh polemical language seems to say like all right
00:22:22.420This is already going to be confrontational, and I'm going to kind of, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like polemical language, we're kind of, I'm going to say this a little stronger than I even, I'm going to up the ante a little bit.
00:22:33.740But I think the reason why is because we believe that sometimes the Lord does humiliate.
00:22:49.100He disciplines and he uses shame as his rod to get through to us, to dismantle and disassemble all those things that are not in his image, that are not in place.
00:23:32.540And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome, but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness.
00:23:42.200For who knows, God may perhaps grant them repentance, leading to a knowledge of the truth.
00:23:49.200And they may come to their senses, like the prodigal, coming to their senses and escape the snare of the devil after being captured by him to do his will.
00:23:56.640Like, what if I was saying, Toby, it sounds like gentleness, correction with gentleness is the tool that God's prescribing, at least in this text, for being effective, that you don't have to, you know, you don't have to go above and beyond, that just that gentle correction will produce enough necessary shame to drive someone to repentance if the Lord has ordained it.
00:24:20.500Yeah, well, I would say I think every pastor should have that verse somewhere in their study or, you know, underlined in their Bible.
00:24:28.180It's a wonderful summary of pastoral ministry.
00:24:31.960And I would say that we need to make sure that we define every word in those verses according to the Bible.
00:24:41.880And the same Paul who wrote that to Timothy, insisting that Timothy imitate him and imitate his ministry, is the same Paul who, you know, well, I said earlier what he told the Judaizers.
00:24:57.560He wrote a pretty harsh letter of rebuke to the Corinthians.
00:25:02.720And, you know, I mean, and the Corinthians were kind of a piece of work, special church.
00:25:06.760um and um and in second corinthians in particular paul says and um i know i made you guys very sad
00:25:14.000um and i'm glad that i did um he he rebuked them and and and i would say and he did it
00:25:23.120with gentleness um gentleness doesn't mean um not doing anything that um it doesn't hurt
00:25:31.660Um, uh, gentle, gentleness, I believe means, um, doing what is necessary, um, uh, for the good
00:25:41.680of those you're addressing. And so, um, a surgeon who needs to amputate, you know, my leg, um,
00:25:50.560you know, for, because it's, you know, infected and it's going to get me sick and kill me,
00:25:54.600um, uh, should not use more force and more, um, violence than is necessary to remove my leg.
00:26:03.920Right. Um, but, but when he's done a faithful job of removing my leg, um, I would say he is,
00:26:10.080he has acted, um, in full gentleness according to the, what the moment required. Um, it was,
00:26:17.000it was, it was restraint because he didn't take off both of my legs. Um, he, he didn't,
00:26:21.960He didn't just put a bullet in my head.
00:26:24.440He didn't use it as an opportunity to work on his hatchet skills.
00:28:40.940Is there any Christian category for sarcasm? We say there is. That's sarcasm and satire, those kinds of things are types of polemical language.1.00
00:28:50.020And so what you're saying is that the same Paul who wrote this command, it's not a suggestion, a command to Timothy, we should assume that the apostle of Christ exercised, he followed this same command himself.
00:29:05.300He's not giving the command to Timothy and not doing it himself. And so then we have to go back.
00:29:10.320That's so helpful to say, all right, so this is what Paul says.
00:30:59.080And so that kind of language, that's strong language.
00:31:01.340We would call that harsh a lot of times in our nice Mr. Rogers Christian world.
00:31:05.520But Paul's doing that, and so the Christian that I've dealt with in pastoral ministry, they would sometimes say, well, Paul is using one fruit of the Spirit, or maybe two or three.
00:31:15.720Maybe he's doing a combo power, you know, whatever, like two or three fruit of the Spirit, but that's not gentleness.
00:31:21.160And so my point is, Christians seem to have this framework that the fruit of the Spirit are individual tools in a toolbox, and we're using one or maybe two at a time for different circumstances.
00:31:32.720where my thought, and you may disagree with me,
00:31:35.040but my thought is that Jesus, for instance,
00:31:56.560which means when He's flipping over tables
00:31:58.520with the money changers in John chapter 2,
00:32:01.720he is he's showing us zeal for his father's house with perfect gentleness there's never so so would
00:32:09.040you agree agree with that assessment that the fruit of the spirit in the life of the christian
00:32:12.720is it's a package deal it's a fruit basket if you will and not into it like let me take an apple
00:32:18.400uh this this moment calls for an orange what what do you think about that principle
00:32:22.080i actually i fully agree actually i think the the word there for fruit is singular um that's and so
00:32:31.060So I think in many, and actually, I think rather than thinking of it as, yeah, grapes and bananas and apples, I think what we're actually talking about is one fruit that manifests in all of these different dynamics.
00:32:44.600You know, sort of, you know, I don't know, you take a fruit, take an orange, take an apple.
00:32:49.180It has all kinds of different texture and qualities to it.
00:32:52.980And I think those fruit, what we call the fruit of the spirit are just, I think, the qualities of the one fruit that the spirit gives.
00:33:02.360The one, well, the one spirit, we could even say it's fruit of the spirit.
00:33:05.960It's manifestation. It's proof of the pudding. The pudding is the spirit.
00:33:10.540And so if you have the spirit, this is what the spirit looks like.
00:33:13.500And in the same way that we don't want to, I think of like, you know, the dual natures of Christ.
00:33:18.780I think of, you know, our theology proper in terms of the sun.
00:33:23.560And in the same way that we don't want to get into some of the Eutychian and Nestorian heresies and this idea that we don't want to, we never want to truncate the divine essence.
00:33:42.740now we copied you but but the point is either way who is who is god a most pure spirit without body
00:33:48.960parts or passions and so god is not dissectable and and if the fruit of the spirit is simply the
00:33:56.300manifestation of god god the holy spirit and and if god is not composed of parts um then right and
00:34:05.000so in that sense i and i know that may be confusing for some of our listeners but like god is a simple
00:34:08.700being in philosophical terms. There's nothing simple about God in a literal sense. He's far
00:34:14.400more complex than you and I. But we are not simple beings as human beings in the sense that
00:34:19.740if I, you know, back to the amputee illustration that you gave, if a doctor chops off my leg,
00:34:25.760I'm still Joel Webin. But there's nothing I can chop off of God and him still be God.
00:34:30.460All that is in God is God. And so all the fruit of the Spirit is, all of that is a manifestation
00:34:36.240of god and and you can't have one without the other if you got god you got all of god and and
00:34:43.560so if if we believe in the priest of all believers and if we believe in the indwelling ministry of
00:34:49.020the holy spirit indwelling each saint each believer we don't have part of the spirit we
00:34:54.600got the whole the whole spirit and we got the whole spirit we got all all the all the fruits
00:35:00.880i think we could even say that they're all connected too in the sense that i mean and
00:35:04.560this is the way it is with God. I mean, God himself is all connected. It's not like, you know,
00:35:09.060you can attack the spirit and not attack the father, or you can't attack the son and not
00:35:13.060attack the father and the spirit. I think the fruit functions the same way. If you're lacking
00:35:18.140gentleness, you're actually lacking all the rest of it. You can't say I'm being loving,
00:35:23.580but not gentle, or I'm being gentle, but not joyful. No, if you're lacking joy, then you're
00:35:29.080also, it's also affecting all the rest of the fruit. You're not actually being fully self-controlled.
00:35:33.080You're not being kind. You're not being patient. So they hang together absolutely the entire time.
00:35:40.160That's really helpful. All right. So one more question, and then we have a couple bonus questions.
00:35:45.520So similar to what you guys do with the Fight, Laugh, Feast Network, for our prescribers, we call them responders, our club members, we have some bonus questions.
00:35:54.620And so one more question, though, on the main interview.
00:35:56.880So earlier you were talking about, because it really is a prophetic, there's that shepherding
00:36:00.920role of pastors in the local church and shepherding the sheep.
00:36:03.920But there is that prophetic component where when I stand into the pulpit, right, the man
00:36:37.260And so you said like with that, you know, like whether it's, you correct me if I'm wrong, I think it's Amos who like kind of just like leads off with your women are like cows, right?
00:36:48.480Like very polemical language or Elijah with the prophets of Baal.0.74
00:36:52.380you know, like maybe you should slash yourselves a little bit more, you know, because your God
00:36:56.720just isn't paying attention. That kind of language, you said that like we use that for
00:37:03.220false prophets. So I want to pick up on that piece. Like false prophets and wolves. You said
00:37:09.580wolves. So my question is, you know, and Jesus does it with the Pharisees, but here's the thing,
00:37:14.620the Pharisees, they're not regenerate. They weren't, you know, like maybe Nicodemus later on,
00:37:19.620of, you know, I don't know. But most of the Pharisees that he's using that polemical language
00:37:25.220with are not, we always think of Pharisees today and we think of these are people in the church.
00:37:30.380And I always have a problem with that because Pharisees weren't in the church. They were not
00:37:33.840followers of Jesus. They were enemies of Christ. They may have been religious rulers for their
00:37:38.620time, but they were anti-Christ. And so my question is in the church. So the wolf is one thing,
00:37:44.940the false prophet false teacher is another is there a category for christians using polemical0.65
00:37:50.500language with brothers with one another is there ever a place so certainly there's a place for
00:37:56.480correction but there is there a place for types of polemical language like satire or sarcasm
00:38:03.240right and that's not your go-to we don't maybe start there but like this guy has not been
00:38:07.980listening to me there's public discourse a lot of other christians are watching like a paul and
00:38:12.360Peter kind of thing, like people can be led astray by Peter's actions. And so in this public sphere
00:38:17.780with, you know, like a blog discourse or a podcast or something like that, this leader who should
00:38:23.280know better, I've tried to talk to him offline. He's ignoring me. He's not setting the record
00:38:27.900straight. And so now I'm going to turn up the heat a little bit. But I do think he's a brother
00:38:33.900in Christ. Is there a category for that? Yeah. Yes. And let me back up a little bit. I think
00:38:42.120the um the point about the pharisees and sadducees um yeah yeah what do you think about that i i grant
00:38:49.320your point although i think in in jesus day i don't think people have could make those distinctions
00:38:55.320very clearly so i think jesus was another rabbi um among many rabbis was a you know was a an elder
00:39:03.040so you know so to speak and a teacher in israel so i think the reason why we have such a poor
00:39:08.220view of the Pharisees today is actually because Jesus did such a great job, took it, you know,
00:39:13.040did a hatchet job on the name Pharisee. So, you know, ever since, nobody wants to be a Pharisee.
00:39:18.320You're right. I think, but I think that actually speaks to the point still, because I think even
00:39:24.960wolves, we're told, appear in sheep's clothing. And so one of the ways that sometimes the
00:39:31.960faithful shepherds drive away the wolves is by exposing the fact that they're wearing,
00:39:36.000you know, a sheepskin. They're not really believers. They're not really faithful pastors.
00:39:43.440And then I think on the flip side, I think is what you're getting to is I do think there are
00:39:47.300truly regenerate Christians and leaders and pastors who will be in heaven who are still
00:39:53.860really wrong about certain things. And that needs to be addressed. And I think there's just,
00:40:01.200you know, there are a number of factors that need to be held together. The short answer is yes. And
00:40:09.620again, I would point to even Paul. He has some really harsh words for Judaizers. But in one of
00:40:16.800his letters, he actually mentions a few of his friends who are of the circumcision party.
00:40:23.460yeah so paul was able to have um really hardcore polemics against the circumcision party
00:40:31.300um but there were apparently some people who were still sort of associated with that who were
00:40:36.960nevertheless working with paul and paul was willing to work with them or what he says to
00:40:42.360the corinthian church he recognizes infants babes in christ so he's saying you're brothers and then
00:40:48.260And then he's like, later on, he's like, you know, we are fools, but you are wise.
00:40:53.980You know, we are, you know, and like he's being sarcastic, you know, he's that, you know, but with, but he's already, he's already affirmed them multiple times by that point in the letter that they're in Christ.
00:41:05.740I think when it comes to, so I think there, and then you were kind of giving an example of maybe, you know, a famous Christian leader who you've.
00:41:13.060I mean, there's that's that's one example. And I think, you know, some sometimes the distance and, you know, the ability to, you know, whatever, whether you're writing articles or responding to each other that way or, you know, a podcast or whatever.
00:41:26.100I mean, what you want to do is contextualize it in terms of, like, if I'm going to take a shot, if I'm going to say, come on, brother, you know better than that, and use some bit of polemics or sarcasm or so on, I want to do everything I can to nevertheless still contextualize it and say, you know, with either respect, this is an older teacher in the church, you know, he's done good work for the kingdom.
00:41:53.340I want there to be a sparkle in my eye, so to speak, in terms of saying, as far as I can tell, I mean, I'm going to heaven with this guy.
00:42:04.200And so I want that to be clear, even though I think you're not being helpful over here.
00:42:12.400I mean, I think where you want to, you know, pastors have to be careful within their own congregation.
00:42:18.420I would say there's still a place for, you know, sort of chiding, even, you know, rebuke or correction and so on, and being playful.
00:42:29.040But I would want to sort of, Paul talks about that sort of pastoral ministry as a fatherly ministry.
00:42:34.660And so – but I think there ought to be a friendly, familiar banter in a home between a father and his children and between you and your wife that's friendly, that's full of love and kindness and joy, but is not so wooden that you can't say, you know, what are you doing?
00:42:59.740um and and i and i think you know it's when the kids are little it's a little bit more black and
00:43:06.320white and it needs to be that way because they're they don't know the categories yet um but i but i
00:43:11.640think as they grow a little older especially my you know my i've got uh three or two or three of
00:43:17.020my kids are in the teenage years now um uh i have to ask my wife how old they are um but they're uh
00:43:23.360um, but I've got three in that sort of middle school, high school range. And, and, you know,
00:43:29.980more of more and more, um, I'm, I'm not correcting them anymore. Like I did when they were five,
00:43:35.300right. Um, where I was pulling them aside and it was a fairly, you know, sort of stern black and1.00
00:43:40.300white, you know, like that's wrong. You did it, you know, so on. They know the categories now.
00:43:45.420And so, and now a lot of what I'm doing is sort of a friendly, you know, you know, really that's,
00:43:51.280That's how you're going to talk to your sister right now, really?
00:43:55.920I'm making fun of them, but it's in a context of deep love and respect, and they know that, and I know that they know that because they're laughing back at me and hustling to go make it right with their sibling or whatever.
00:44:10.320So I think there ought to be slightly differing voices for different contexts, but I think you are using, in some ways, the same muscle.
00:44:21.820It's a polemical muscle, but it might have a slightly different incarnation.
00:44:27.140The last thing I would say is just remember that the enemy really is the devil.
00:44:33.260And yes, the Bible does describe people as enemies sometimes.
00:44:37.040And so I think we do have enemies of the gospel and we have enemies, um, even sometimes in the church and so on. Um, but, um, but don't forget that, um, they're really, you know, this side of, of heaven, this side of glory, um, we're, um, we're still fighting to win the man.
00:44:56.100um uh and and that doesn't um and so that needs to be kept in mind or it's it's not just um you
00:45:04.080know i've got to be right and you've got to be proven wrong but it's there's always a sense of
00:45:08.800um back to the the the timothy passage and paul's exhortation to timothy that um you know perhaps
00:45:15.760god will grant them repentance and they'll be rescued from the slavery of the devil um and
00:45:20.560and even when we're talking about a true regenerate brother who's not really under the
00:45:25.480dominion of the devil, there can still be deception from the devil. There can still be
00:45:30.280just things that, you know, it's not as good as it should be. And you want to win them over
00:45:35.840from that. That's right. Yeah, I completely agree. The 2 Timothy 2 passage is helpful,
00:45:42.740win the man, and keeping that always in our sights. And then I think it's also helpful
00:45:48.680for Christians because the win the man sometimes, well, first, I think we just, we need to repent
00:45:53.320of our our arrogance so some christians they'll hear that let's say when the man all right well
00:45:58.020like there are some scenarios toby where it's just that man has made it abundantly clear that
00:46:04.400he's he's not going to be one and so i think our first response counter to that point would be um
00:46:10.400yeah but that man it does not have autonomous freedom he's not in charge of whether or not
00:46:15.820he's going to be one uh he might be one sol didn't look very winnable on the road to damascus
00:46:20.920that's right exactly so so that doesn't mean we quit because i think some christians would just
00:46:24.680say all right you know you're saying that you're trying to win the man um but it sounds like you're
00:46:30.460just arguing sounds like you're just fighting and uh it's like well this this man could still be one
00:46:35.020and then i i just wanted to broaden and say there's winning the man there's also winning
00:46:38.700the the men like meaning that um i think of like so there's paul you know talking about
00:46:43.700how how to address your direct opponent winning the opponent himself but there's also apollos
00:46:50.120And I think about, you know, he argued powerfully is what the text says.
00:46:57.240And we don't necessarily get a description of whether or not the people he was arguing with, if any of them were won over.
00:47:02.440But it says that the saints who were there in that area, who are watching this debate, this argument going back and forth, Apollos, because he was such a powerful arguer from the scriptures and powerful, I can only assume, rhetoric and all these other guys were encouraged.
00:47:24.140And you see that, man, you see that when a faithful apologist, you know, takes a public debate against an atheist.
00:47:31.640And it's like, how many times does the atheist at the end of the debate fall on his knees, tear his clothes, repent, you know, maybe not super often.
00:47:40.880Number one, still, God could win that man.
00:47:44.160And but then number two, all those Christians who have been beaten down by intellectual liberals that they live with, you know, and been made fun of.
00:47:54.600Like they've been made fun of for believing in a literal six day creation.0.99
00:47:58.840And they've been a young earth and been made to feel because the Orthodox, the culture is so it's just, you know, and so they've been made to feel stupid.0.97
00:48:07.780And then all of a sudden a Titan, right?0.98
00:48:42.760We're on the right side of history. It doesn't matter what CNN keeps saying.
00:48:46.080We are actually on the right side of history, and God gives us titans, I think, sometimes.
00:48:51.160He gives us Davids because everybody else is shaking, and their knees are knocking.
00:48:56.160And then all of a sudden, the people of God become ferocious because they realize the battle can actually be won.
00:49:01.220It's winnable, and we have God on our side.
00:49:04.120I think God taught me that lesson most starkly when, for several years, I participated in open-air preaching on our local university campus.
00:55:52.940Toby and I are going to come back on for another, uh, 10,
00:55:55.54015 minutes or so and address these. Um, so one question, I've got two,
00:55:59.680number one, uh, what is your stance on mass with COVID-19?
00:56:04.960And why do some pastors seem to be frustrated with you on this subject?
00:56:10.200Toby can decline to answer these things, but I'm just throwing them out there.
00:56:13.680We'll see what he says, see what he's comfortable sharing.
00:56:16.080Number two is, do you think some evangelical leaders have wrongly categorized the ways in which local churches should respond to COVID-19 and the ensuing lockdowns?
00:56:27.500Do you think this has been the ways that churches should respond?
00:56:30.200Do you think some evangelical leaders have wrongly categorized this as a matter of Christian liberty?
00:56:36.480I thought it'd be really fun to briefly chat about that.
00:56:39.740I think some things are being thrown in the category of Christian liberty that I feel are more so, no, that's a commandment, clear commandment from Christ.
00:56:46.620So I want to hear your thoughts on how much of a spectrum of Christian liberty do we really have when it comes to churches, whether we should gather or not, how we should gather.
00:56:55.360and your position more particularly on mass
00:56:59.040and why some people in the evangelical sphere right now
00:57:03.760seem to not be very happy with you, Toby.
00:57:25.360All our shows are there. There's also an app that's called the Fight, Laugh Beast, Fight Laugh Beast Network. If you want to download the app, find all the other shows that are going on there. I'm at Christ Church in Moscow. Our website is ChristKirk, K-I-R-K dot com. And so sermons and various things are up there. And then lastly, I blog at TobyJSumter.com.
00:57:52.460great thanks Toby bless you brother for your ministry we're grateful for you
00:57:56.300thanks Joel thanks for tuning in to Right Response Ministries
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