The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - Christians Are Moving To Red States, Whether We Like It Or Not ｜ with Jeff Wright

00:00:00.000 Join Douglas Wilson, Dr. Joseph Boot, Brian Sauve, Eric Kahn, and myself on March 1st,

00:00:12.060 2nd, and 3rd for our 2024 conference. It's called Blueprints for Christendom 2.0.

00:00:18.920 Go and visit rightresponseconference.com to register today. We hope to see you at the conference in March.

00:00:30.000 Welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied.

00:00:35.080 I am your host, Pastor Joel Webbin with Wright Response Ministries.

00:00:38.400 Now, in this episode, I'm very privileged to welcome, for the first time to our show,

00:00:43.260 Pastor Jeff Wright.

00:00:44.480 The title of this episode is this, Christians are moving to red states, whether we like

00:00:50.480 it or not.

00:00:51.700 Now, the conversation that Jeff and I have is about Christians moving to more conservative

00:00:56.700 rule areas and what God might be up to with his wise providence. Let's go ahead and tune in now.

00:01:04.500 Applying God's word to every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied.

00:01:14.500 All right, so I'm here with Jeff Wright. We're going to be talking today about biblical

00:01:19.000 patriarchy we're going to be talking about um basically medieval uh not really liking anything

00:01:26.860 that's to their right we're going to talk about a little bit about my book fight by flight and

00:01:31.780 because jeff you're in tennessee you're in a red deep red area rural kind of context and you've got

00:01:39.220 some christians coming from progressive godless places and you're their pastor now there's they're

00:01:44.600 coming to your church and so you're dealing with that transition people have left a place

00:01:48.640 trying to start a new life, a place where they can maybe afford to own a home and not put their

00:01:53.780 kids in public school and all that kind of stuff. And you've seen the controversy that, you know,

00:01:58.240 whether it's red state, blue state, or Christian nationalism, or biblical patriarchy, and I think

00:02:02.380 we'll probably get into all of that. Any of those takes, it seems like one of the common denominators

00:02:07.720 is you're just, you're talking to normal people. And normal Christians in the pew don't have a lot

00:02:14.860 of advocates these days it seems like and when anybody tries to to stand up for them or say hey

00:02:19.960 you're allowed to do this or hey this is what god's word clearly says we all know it says it

00:02:23.960 you like you you don't get attacked from the rainbow jihad you get attacked from

00:02:29.520 complementarian calvinists what do you think i think that's super well said i guess i should

00:02:34.620 start by saying thanks for having me on i appreciate what you're doing and uh keep up the

00:02:38.240 good work that actually is what i probably would say if somebody called me and said you know joel

00:02:43.340 web and what's he up to? The thing I appreciate the most is that you're just saying what normal

00:02:49.160 Christians are thinking through in their daily lives as they try to honor God in the various

00:02:55.100 spheres of sovereignty. And what I've noticed with you, and it's one of the things I gravitate

00:03:00.960 towards what you're doing over, is that you're unashamed to say, now this is what people who

00:03:05.460 go to church every Sunday and try to raise their kids to know the Lord and honor Christ in their

00:03:10.020 work life. This is what they're facing. So I'm talking about it. And as you said, right there

00:03:15.160 at the beginning, my tolerance for the Russell Moore, David French, Kristen Dumez set who want

00:03:23.320 to take just people who go to church on Sundays regularly and turn them into the reason that

00:03:30.180 everything is wrong in the world. My tolerance is just exhausted. I despise those who hate the

00:03:36.140 church and uh i appreciate you giving some encouragement but that i mean really when

00:03:40.880 when this era of church history is written i think that's going to be one of the major

00:03:44.200 defining characteristics that normal church going people who just want to live as if christ is the

00:03:49.980 lord was became despised by cultural elites and then by the people in the theological tribe that

00:03:57.140 should have their back you're absolutely right that's why you got to have you got to have some

00:04:02.140 of the uh the mantras the uh you know the the christian you know christian nation gooder than

00:04:07.980 trans and kids you know that because like it works you know like what you're getting at is

00:04:12.600 just saying like hey you know i don't i don't is this classical liberalism like i like i'm not this

00:04:18.660 highly educated i don't know about this i don't know about that but i know that they're uh they're

00:04:23.100 chopping off body parts of little kids and uh and maybe i don't know maybe we could give jesus a try

00:04:30.820 you know like that and that's i'm that's the the average conservative flyover country you know

00:04:37.740 god's country christian that's what they're thinking right now and and and i think they're

00:04:42.560 shocked and they're and they're and they're mad some of them are mad that like it seems so obvious

00:04:47.940 so clear and then and then they're looking to guys who they've respected who they who they've like

00:04:55.700 who they've given money to you know and donations and supported and they're like uh

00:05:01.400 and and those guys are are saying okay yeah it is bad and uh it is wrong and it is against god's

00:05:10.460 word and like all right uh-huh and we're we're gonna do what about it um we're gonna pray

00:05:17.240 but like you know it's like are we but are we allowed to can we just can we can i think part

00:05:27.180 of it is people are thinking more practically i think that's a big part of it is the pietistic

00:05:32.420 side of christianity has been revealed these last few years and uh and so more people are thinking

00:05:39.260 practically they're thinking like like practice not just uh tell me you know the doctrine of god

00:05:44.920 divine impassibility you know divine simplicity um sovereignty of god yes those things are

00:05:50.620 important i think there was a lot of theology in the new calvinist movement a lot of theology

00:05:54.920 theological foundations laid over the last 25 years and i'm grateful for them

00:05:59.000 um but now it seems like what god is doing in his providence is is he's saying okay and now

00:06:04.380 it's theology applied so like so taking what you know about god and about your your duties as a

00:06:09.780 husband and this blah blah blah blah blah um where should you live you know like uh uh can

00:06:16.720 can you be in politics or or can you not like and so people are or should you yeah so what do you

00:06:24.360 think about that it seems like that's it's it's the practical stuff that people want to get at

00:06:28.000 and some guys they won't get practical because if you get practical here's the thing you get

00:06:33.360 practical and it's easy to, to, uh, to pick you apart. It's easy to straw man. Like when I said,

00:06:39.560 you know, um, with, you know, with, with my wife, now there's one book that I've asked my wife,

00:06:44.300 not even not to read, but to wait and to read it with me. And people lost their minds. They lost

00:06:48.820 their minds. Uh, but what I was trying to do for my church, you know, and I didn't make that clip

00:06:52.900 go viral. Somebody else dug through my archives and found it. Um, but, but what I was trying to

00:06:57.900 say is um a husband like does does a husband or does he not have authority in his home and if he

00:07:06.580 and if he does see that that's that's the thing you could talk to complementarians all day long

00:07:11.440 and say oh yes he does and they define the doctrine and this and the blah blah and but

00:07:14.800 then you say can you give me not 10 one example they can't because the moment that you give the

00:07:22.720 example you've gone from a husband is the head of his wife in theory to like no seriously i actually

00:07:28.740 mean it the husband's the head of his wife oh you can't you can't mean it well i i that's the thing

00:07:35.680 that can't express itself in any way that might say no to something right right right so this

00:07:41.040 practical thing so what what do you think what are some other practical things that i mean you're

00:07:44.640 dealing with you got guys moving to your church in tennessee like what are some of the practical

00:07:48.880 things that as a pastor and you know and then also i mean you're you've got a public voice uh

00:07:53.600 what are some of the practical things that you that you feel like middle america

00:07:57.520 your blue-collar christian is begging for pastors to lead them in

00:08:04.480 honestly i think that what most normal christians and by normal christians i mean people who just

00:08:10.720 generally agree with what christians have understood historically to be the theological

00:08:15.520 and the ethical conclusions of our faith.

00:08:19.900 So things like not just tranny stuff, but sodomy is bad.

00:08:24.560 Sodomy is not a special kind of sin that gets justified where racism doesn't.

00:08:30.200 I think the crux of the issue is they can see all the cannons lined up

00:08:37.220 around the ridgetop aiming at them.

00:08:41.000 And I think, honestly, a lot of normal church-going Christians

00:08:45.080 who I've spent my career pastoring, they actually are okay with that.

00:08:50.980 You think about the dispensationalism where we might have critiques or whatnot,

00:08:54.360 but disbies have been preparing for a long time for persecution to come

00:08:58.240 at a very pronounced rate.

00:09:00.900 And so they know what's happening.

00:09:04.260 They can see it.

00:09:05.600 The animal who's about to be attacked is pretty credible in saying,

00:09:09.500 I feel threatened right now.

00:09:10.680 And they are looking for anybody in the political arena that they, like you said, that they've donated to over the years, that they've went to rallies for, that they've encouraged their friends to vote for, pastors at the churches they've supported with their literal lives, not just their money, but like they're there setting up VBS stuff when they want to be home watching a Braves game, or at least there's part of them that would enjoy the leisure time of doing that.

00:09:36.360 But they're going to go set up for VBS, big platforms, you know, the Together for the Gospels.

00:09:43.840 They're just looking for someone to say, I'll be with you when it happens.

00:09:48.380 And maybe we've got a fighting chance to survive it.

00:09:52.060 And what they find, by and large, is the people they're looking to loading shot into the cannons.

00:10:00.200 And that kind of person is exactly the kind of person I want to encourage.

00:10:05.540 I do think probably, you know, I know you're post-meal,

00:10:09.280 but I don't think post-meal necessitates.

00:10:12.440 It's going to always be immediately pleasant.

00:10:15.600 I think we could be facing some really tough times.

00:10:18.820 And I want to tell the normal person who senses it, yeah, you're not the problem.

00:10:23.100 You're not the abnormal one, despite what the New York Times evangelicals tell you.

00:10:29.000 And be encouraged.

00:10:30.920 The Lord's still sovereign.

00:10:31.840 And there's a bunch of people who will be in the gulag or the foxhole with you.

00:10:35.700 And again, we might have a puncher's chance of coming out of this.

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00:12:14.300 economy again by going to farmerbillsprovisions.com. I think eschatology matters. Don't get me wrong,

00:12:22.640 but you can be pre-meal dispensationalist and believe that Jesus is coming back next Thursday.

00:12:27.000 You could technically be pre-meal dispensationalist and believe that Jesus is going to come back in

00:12:30.900 150 years. And in 150 years, um, the overall trajectory you believe is going to be down,

00:12:37.460 but there can be some spikes along the way. And there could be a 30 year spike and a 30 year

00:12:42.060 spike means something for your kids for your grandkids and it's something that you'll give

00:12:46.060 your life for right like i'll give my life for a 30 year spike you look at like joshua generation

00:12:52.160 you know and like uh you know jerry falwell and you know um those a lot of those people were

00:12:57.960 dispensationalists and they were really serious about being they were dispensationalists but they

00:13:02.780 were not pietists and i'm not saying there were no problems i'm not saying that they didn't miss

00:13:06.480 some things but i'm just saying that uh sure it it is unfair to say that um that you know

00:13:14.400 pre-millennial eschatology and pietism um are twins they don't have to come as a pair

00:13:22.000 and and honestly post-millennialism it's funny on the on the flip side

00:13:25.840 as i'm getting to know more post-millennials some of them are you know go fight win uh but

00:13:30.600 But others of them are like the dispensational pre-meal guy will say, well, we can't do this because, you know, we lose down here.

00:13:41.640 The post-millennial guy will say, well, we can't do this because we win down here, but not for another 50,000 years.

00:13:48.000 You know what I mean?

00:13:49.660 So you can be post-millennial and be really apathetic.

00:13:53.860 You know, and I mean, that was part of Stephen Wolf's, you know, thing was saying, you know, his book, Christian nationalism.

00:14:00.600 the case for Christian nationalism, he was saying, you know, I'm not post-mill, I'm all-mill.

00:14:05.340 And I'm saying, I think this is what, you know, what is right and what we should do now.

00:14:13.420 Now.

00:14:14.580 Absolutely.

00:14:15.220 I mean, I'm still an optimistic all-mill guy.

00:14:17.420 I'm sorry, go ahead.

00:14:18.280 Yeah, absolutely.

00:14:18.660 That's the kind of thing that I think people are looking forward to, or looking for, rather,

00:14:24.640 not forward to, looking for.

00:14:26.980 That we have some important theological differences.

00:14:30.080 And during a time of ceasefire, we might even talk about those, right?

00:14:34.440 And we might try to hash them out again.

00:14:36.340 But when clearly the New York Times wants to turn us into social scapegoats and ostracize normal Christians for just what we've always been, let's have some higher priorities.

00:14:49.460 And I mean, that's where I think actually the hope of the church is.

00:14:53.880 It's people like that who are willing to say these things aren't inconsequential, but they're not the first priority right now.

00:15:01.040 I can I can see a gun pointed in my direction.

00:15:04.360 It's odd where I'm from is very rural.

00:15:06.960 I grew up in this area.

00:15:07.920 I live on a family farm.

00:15:09.460 Didn't think that would be what I really didn't think that'd be the Lord's trajectory for me.

00:15:14.920 I thought it'd be seminary in an academic career.

00:15:17.320 So what I've ended up doing over the.

00:15:20.640 I think I'm in my 40 and I just turned 40.

00:15:23.880 A while back, and I took my first job at 20.

00:15:26.660 So for multiple decades, I have been trying to tell rural churches that there is much to be gained from paying attention to the academic side of the church, that that's not pencil necks who have no relevance to your life.

00:15:40.740 And all they're talking about is how many angels can dance on the head of a pen.

00:15:44.400 I'm now talking to people who feel very vindicated in those conclusions, right?

00:15:50.960 and trying to tell the academic world get in here and help stop living uh for a cushy

00:15:58.040 position in the new regime and get in here and help the people who have been funding everything

00:16:03.280 that's ever given you a paycheck right you know so so you said you've got some families that have

00:16:10.400 moved there from some some blue states and stuff like that what what are some of the um

00:16:15.860 what what's the what's the testimonies that you hear from those families what are they saying

00:16:20.960 what are their reasons why they moved and and and also what are some of the challenges the new

00:16:25.200 challenges that they're facing what's the hardest the steepest part of the learning curve for them

00:16:29.480 moving to a place a rural place in tennessee

00:16:32.740 those are good questions so we've had people move just think off the top of my head a bunch of

00:16:39.840 people i say a bunch proportionately we're not a mega church but proportionately several people

00:16:43.880 from oregon okay from washington uh arizona and then california every everywhere i look it's

00:16:51.060 california it's all left coast now if i drive around my town i see some east coast license

00:16:57.180 plates but those aren't the people who are showing up at our church for whatever reason

00:17:00.340 god's providence and so what um what is really driving them you know there may be some sort of

00:17:08.580 like land price uh issue you know i don't know if i could have owned a home in my old

00:17:13.620 san francisco uh zip code that will show up every now and then but most of it is what i just said

00:17:20.540 they can see the cannons lined up around the top of the uh the the ridge and they're looking for

00:17:26.620 somebody to take a stand with and say if we go down i want to go down with friends right i don't

00:17:32.420 want to be isolated and um honestly joel i mean you know this through your own experience they

00:17:39.480 sound like refugees i i'll just fully confess that where i live um is a very rural community

00:17:48.480 and theologically this isn't the purpose of this conversation but i think there is something

00:17:53.600 that cultivates authentic humanity in making your life connected to a particular piece of

00:18:02.380 ground so i'm an agrarian in that sense wendell berry that stuff's all in the background i think

00:18:07.300 rural communities do a good job of creating human beings there's a natural law connection that's

00:18:14.240 there so all these farms that i grew up on um going to help out other farmers and things like

00:18:20.400 that they're all being sold for five acre tracks and a spec house is built on them and they get

00:18:25.580 flipped in a couple years and you go from a place that was defined by multiple generations of a

00:18:31.180 family um drawing their very existence from the ground they live on to sort of like well this is

00:18:38.820 a nice destination spot and maybe i'll flip it later for something better it's gentrification

00:18:43.560 applied to the south i know we're not the only ones who's ever been through but it just literally

00:18:48.620 hurts it literally hurts me to see these gorgeous pieces of land that have sustained families that

00:18:55.820 I've known a house stuck on them and they're never going to grow much of

00:19:01.540 anything ever again.

00:19:02.620 You know,

00:19:02.760 people out here will talk about undeveloped land and I'm like,

00:19:05.820 please stop,

00:19:06.920 please stop.

00:19:08.160 It's developed to feed humans.

00:19:10.360 It's developed to make human beings.

00:19:14.040 So I'm just trying to put all my cards on that.

00:19:16.500 I'm not some cheerleader for the great sort,

00:19:18.880 but what overcame sort of my visceral pain in this stuff happening,

00:19:25.820 is hearing these guys show up sounding like refugees um they thought their pastor would

00:19:33.120 have their back but he told them you don't love your neighbor if you don't inject yourself with

00:19:38.860 this experimental vaccine they thought some of their you know a lot of states even that have

00:19:46.100 gone really blue have red have red legislators red legislation bodies but they lay down before

00:19:54.840 trainees they laid down before the lgbtq right and so these people show up and um i'm tempted

00:20:02.460 to think of them kind of like locusts coming to devour good things right but what i find is

00:20:08.880 they're the teeming masses huddling yearning to breathe free seriously i mean that sounds

00:20:13.940 grandiose but that's what i find and i'm a pastor those are i mean i can't help but gravitate

00:20:20.140 towards that and say actually okay come on in we you know we've we've got some food laid up that

00:20:25.400 we can help you with right so um that that's what it sounds like to catch those people a lot of them

00:20:32.760 bring really good strengths i mean we've got some some families that came to us from jeff durbin

00:20:38.080 and you gotta you gotta believe i'm excited to have jeff durbin transplants in my church

00:20:42.820 the um the challenges i see them facing are um i mean real practically appalachia doesn't always

00:20:55.340 have uh mayberry like characteristics if you've ever watched justified you know there's a few

00:21:01.940 boyd prowders out there and so knowing if the piece of ground you're buying is surrounded by

00:21:08.460 andy and barney or it's surrounded by boyd uh and his group it's not really something you can learn

00:21:15.580 on the internet and every now and then um you just find out it didn't go the way you wanted

00:21:21.840 so they're those challenges are there very practically um i've met a few people who have

00:21:28.260 shown up and assumed that because all the churches in my area were quicker than

00:21:34.920 wherever they were coming from to reopen after COVID,

00:21:39.200 that was the single criteria that means they're a good church.

00:21:43.180 And they bounce around and they find a lot of Andy Stanley

00:21:46.300 and they find a lot of new apostolic reformation stuff.

00:21:52.540 And that's a pretty quick eye opener.

00:21:55.760 Not everything's perfect.

00:21:57.620 And they'll show up at our church and say,

00:21:59.060 I'm just thankful to find a Reformed Baptist church.

00:22:01.000 And then the last one, and our friends over at Ridge Runner USA, Josh Abitoy, someone who's working on this, how do you come into a community that has the characteristics that create the kind of lifestyle that you want to live?

00:22:22.200 How do you come into that community without displacing that community?

00:22:26.620 Real quick for our listeners, explain Ridge Runner.

00:22:31.000 Yeah, so Ridge Runner is a company that is helping to, I'm going to use this term loosely, it's in the context of what I said earlier, they're helping to develop land in Appalachia. And so they have gorgeous property up along the Cumberland River in southern Kentucky. But what they're trying to do is say, we know people are going to come to these areas.

00:22:51.320 we want to have people who want to strengthen what exists in this community not come in and

00:22:58.720 displace it and so they're being very intentional about who they're recruiting to come live i think

00:23:03.340 it's hopkinsville kentucky hopkinsville has the kind of characteristics that these people want

00:23:08.860 to live in but because they're bringing a different economic class in just by just by

00:23:17.880 being there and being willing to pay certain land prices you're going to displace a lot of what

00:23:23.140 a lot of the people who created the environment you want to live in and ridge runner is trying

00:23:28.320 to help say let's help you immigrate basically without doing damage that's going to kind of

00:23:35.640 thwart your hopes right you know that it stays the kind of community you want to live in

00:23:40.180 that makes sense so that was a really long answer man you can tell i've been thinking

00:23:46.120 about that for a while, but I'm happy to, it was good. Uh, you know, the pushback that I often get,

00:23:50.980 you know, with the, with the book that I wrote, fight my flight and this whole conversation that

00:23:55.320 we're having right now, you know, people leaving, you know, progressive and godless places to move

00:23:59.500 to, you know, more red conservative places. Uh, part of the pushback that I'll get is, uh,

00:24:06.440 people will say, well, you know, that's, that's gospel-less or, uh, it's wolf-like it's a doctrine

00:24:12.620 of demons it's um it's the prosperity gospel i've gotten that one um now of course everything that

00:24:19.840 i've decided come from uh like the same two people so but you just gave seven pejoratives

00:24:27.720 yep two two guys working overtime um but anyways all that being said um i have to constantly remind

00:24:35.320 my uh opponents that uh even though these are red places they are generally much more conservative

00:24:42.700 a much more conducive environment for raising the family all those kinds of things um there are

00:24:48.420 still non-christians that need jesus in texas are there any in tennessee i i'm wondering are is

00:24:53.940 there still do you guys do you still do evangelism there or is it because that's the isn't that funny

00:24:59.460 like the false dichotomy that's presented is you can do evangelism in manhattan and it's going to

00:25:06.200 hurt but jesus paid it all and we follow his example or you can sell out and give up the

00:25:14.340 gospel and never evangelize another soul till you die and live in tennessee it's like what like

00:25:22.560 what's you know what i mean it's just silly it's it's like or you know another guy said you know

00:25:28.260 you're doing violence to the church of Jesus, right? You know, because you're leaving that,

00:25:32.720 like your true church in this, you know, blue state to go and help the state, right? Like,

00:25:38.740 cause that's why Christians are, they're going to help the state of Texas politically.

00:25:43.160 And they don't join a church in Texas. Of course, they, they, when they left their true church in

00:25:47.760 California to move to Texas, it was solely to benefit the civil body of Texas and to stop

00:25:54.980 attending any church they went apostate you know like i mean what world but people literally i'm

00:26:00.400 saying people will mount these kinds of criticisms of what we're talking about and and uh they're

00:26:06.800 getting retweets and likes and uh and and it's just and you know like none of these people are

00:26:13.780 thinking clearly that you know these are such straw men such false dichotomy like you leave

00:26:19.560 your church in california to to bless the state of texas no i'm leaving a local church i'm not

00:26:25.100 leaving jesus universal invisible bride to join another local church i did no violence to jesus

00:26:30.340 i'm allowed to leave a church because i don't want to raise my family in this area it's brought up

00:26:35.360 but the lord and his providence has been good it's brought up a lot of questions that need to be asked

00:26:39.420 like how much of an authority does a pastor actually have you know like are is a pastor

00:26:45.680 allowed to dissuade his congregation from moving um because they want to be a homeowner instead of

00:26:54.120 renting the rest of their life i i don't know if a pastor has that authority maybe maybe through

00:27:00.140 counsel but in terms of you know or or like should a pastor for instance even if he doesn't say it

00:27:06.660 should a pastor be praying like i know a guy who on the record his words his admission it's written

00:27:13.040 down. I've got the screenshots to prove it, but said, you know, I'm praying for the singles in

00:27:18.060 my church, um, that as they consider marriage, that they would not consider any marriage that

00:27:24.440 would take them out of the city, um, that they would forego, you know, so sure you, you can be

00:27:31.100 married so long as you choose to marry a spouse that practically financially, and, you know,

00:27:37.300 in terms of just their opinion, will choose to stay in this area.

00:27:41.900 But I'm, and this is a guy saying, who's coming against me,

00:27:45.720 saying that I'm binding consciences by encouraging Christians to move to red states.

00:27:50.720 But here he admits that he in his prayer life is praying,

00:27:55.420 Lord, I pray for the singles in my church,

00:27:58.620 that they would forego any kind of marriage

00:28:02.440 that would cause them to leave this very, very deep blue area,

00:28:06.480 which to be frank, is if I named the city, I mean, it's 90% of marriages. If they get married

00:28:13.400 and have one kid, they're gone. 90% of them. So he's essentially saying, Lord, I pray that the

00:28:21.600 vast majority of singles in my church would never know the joys of marriage. Thank you, Father.

00:28:27.260 You know, and so these, and again, these aren't woke people. I'm not talking about Jamar Tisby.

00:28:30.980 I'm talking about, I am talking about Calvinist, reformed, conservative, Christian, anti-woke pastors, and it's blowing my mind.

00:28:44.040 So anyway, I don't know, I'm rambling, but what do you think about evangelism and red states and about, you know, this whole kind of thing?

00:28:53.520 What would you say to the guy who says that you're doing violence to Jesus if you leave a blue state, you know, and you're a good church there?

00:29:00.320 or you're, you know, this is a doctrine of demons.

00:29:02.840 What do you think is going on there?

00:29:04.180 What are these guys, because it just seems like derangement syndrome.

00:29:07.600 They've got Joel derangement syndrome, but what do you think is the underlining issue?

00:29:13.560 Yeah, I do think Joel derangement syndrome is a real thing.

00:29:18.400 So, I mean, just there's a lot there that I could kind of go off on for a while

00:29:23.600 because, I mean, these are the things I'm thinking about a lot.

00:29:26.600 The biblical framework for the kind of prayer you just described

00:29:29.660 is that he's praying that singles in his church

00:29:32.580 would die barren,

00:29:34.880 which in Scripture is one of the greatest curses

00:29:37.800 that can fall upon someone.

00:29:40.080 That their line would end.

00:29:42.820 Yeah.

00:29:43.560 It's a curse.

00:29:44.560 I mean, you think about all the people

00:29:46.000 who spent basically their whole lives

00:29:48.480 begging God that they not be barren

00:29:50.620 and how God is pleased to move his kingdom forward

00:29:53.940 through the birth of children consistently, right?

00:29:56.520 I think that you and I have sympathies here that this is one of those things about Baptists that I wish I could change.

00:30:07.100 Presbyterians are wrong about how the church is grown through the birth of children.

00:30:14.120 But Baptists have no vision for Christian families multiplying, being fruitful, and the church growing.

00:30:22.180 right um so here's to a guy like that who's praying that i'm of two minds i think probably

00:30:31.340 two versions of that guy exists and there's one that i'm much more sympathetic to and there's one

00:30:36.520 that i would say is my enemy you know christ can reconcile us eternally but right now we are uh

00:30:45.240 locked in conflict the guy i'm sympathetic to is the one who feels like he has to live in that blue

00:30:53.720 city for whatever reason right and he rightly understands that as more people flee who can do so

00:31:02.460 he is increasingly exposed in the city he wants to reach practically knowing that god works through

00:31:10.160 means have less people to lock arms with him. That's a product of fear. And that guy is much

00:31:18.980 closer to the refugee who's showing up at my door. And I want to come alongside him with different

00:31:24.280 kinds of encouragement, right? And say, your enemy is not the people leaving you. Your resources

00:31:30.220 aren't ultimately the people leaving you. Maybe this is a sign to you, right? If the people you're

00:31:37.460 covenant with are all leaving maybe that's an indication of god's will for you right i've got

00:31:42.120 there's just a whole different kind of fraternal conversation i want to have with that right

00:31:45.880 the other guy though has a cush lifestyle um and you know things aren't as bad for him

00:31:55.880 as the guy who's um you know whose wife works in the public school system the government school

00:32:01.460 system and is working for some you know silicon valley company that is offering longer vacations

00:32:08.720 if he'll trans his kid you know or he'll you know have his wife abort his kid

00:32:14.000 and so in order to protect his cush position really insulated uh he'll tell them stay in

00:32:23.100 this awful situation that is degrading to a christian and a human right and that guy is a

00:32:29.420 guy that i'm quite happy you know i'm not i'm not trying to position myself as a tough guy but

00:32:34.360 shepherds have to fight wolves right and that's a guy who i'm quite happy to say that sounds like a

00:32:39.860 hireling and you know uh in ezekiel the shepherds of israel are criticized for growing fat off the

00:32:47.280 sheep right you sound to me like a shepherd who eats sheep right which is another word for a wolf

00:32:53.120 i had a section in my book where i said exactly that i said like there is something to be said

00:32:57.720 that if you're going, if you're committed to being a shepherd in the Sahara desert,

00:33:02.540 Psalm 23, you know, you lead sheep beside still waters and you cause them to lie down in green

00:33:08.760 pastures. And I understand that that's speaking of Christ as the ultimate chief shepherd.

00:33:13.240 And that's what he does with us in a spiritual sense. But there is something to be said for,

00:33:18.740 you know, that, that is what under shepherds do as pastors on the Lord's day. We're taking the

00:33:24.320 sheep to the delectable mountains to get a glimpse of you know the celestial city we're causing them

00:33:29.300 to lie down and to rest and the lord it is a day of rest worship and rest are two sides of the same

00:33:35.060 coin and so we're resting in christ and we're also feasting on christ and so it's it's it's

00:33:40.800 green pastures to lie down and rest cool still water and uh you know but what what do you do

00:33:47.600 if you're determined that like i'm going to be a shepherd in the sahara desert and there's there's

00:33:52.380 no there's no streams you know to drink from and there's no green grass to lie down in um well the

00:33:58.060 sheep one by one they starve you know what does the shepherd eat well he eats the sheep because

00:34:02.660 that's all that's all there is to eat you know and and that i mean that was that's part of what

00:34:07.800 it was for me was as my convictions were changing and i was becoming more and more biblically

00:34:13.280 conservative and i was starting to esteem um and champion the goodness of children and the goodness

00:34:20.120 of multiple children blessed is is a man whose quiver is full and i was starting to to challenge

00:34:26.520 men to be the kind of man who who never leaves less than a spiritual inheritance but oh how we

00:34:32.840 should leave more so the kind of man who is thinking about leaving an inheritance for his

00:34:37.260 not just his children but his children's children so i'm going to have kids uh if i can and god

00:34:42.060 blesses us you know within within wisdom and prudence i'm going to have not just kids but

00:34:46.860 lots of kids. I'm going to be the kind of man who plans for the financial well-being of not just my

00:34:52.740 kids, but also my grandkids. I'm not going to rely on public schools. I'm going to work for my wife,

00:34:58.360 Titus II, to be a keeper at home and not rely on her for a second income working out of the home.

00:35:03.800 She may supplement income being industrious in the home, but I don't want to send her

00:35:07.800 for long copious periods of time, especially with young children to work to build another

00:35:12.940 man's house, but I want her to be building our house. Um, and then also I want to honor my

00:35:17.820 father and mother as they become older, um, and, and grow in age and need help. I don't want to

00:35:23.180 just send them off and let that be the example for my own children. Um, but I want, I want,

00:35:29.160 you know, for, for, uh, you know, me, mom and papa, you know, and granny and grandpa to, you

00:35:34.280 know, to come and to be near to us, to be a part of our grandchildren's lives for us to be able to

00:35:39.060 help them. I also want to give 10% to the church and as a pastor, at least that setting an example.

00:35:47.380 And I started preaching these things, Jeff. And what happened was I realized that the title of

00:35:52.640 my sermon every week was five reasons you should leave my church. You can't preach those sermons

00:35:59.360 in San Diego. I mean, it's just, you know what I mean? The practical implications

00:36:04.580 are super clear you're you're essentially saying um hey here's five more reasons why you should get

00:36:12.500 the heck out of dodge so eventually i just realized what why instead of getting bitter and getting

00:36:18.820 upset i just realized well why can't i just do that shepherd thing the thing i keep thinking

00:36:24.640 about shepherds lead flocks they lead them to still waters still waters don't exist everywhere

00:36:30.720 you got to find them and you, and you, and you search them out and you, and then you take the

00:36:34.240 sheep there, you take the sheep from bad places. So I just thought, well, instead of me preaching

00:36:40.140 these things, everybody trickling, you know, getting wise, moving one by one by one. And then

00:36:45.540 years from now, me and my, you know, I'm preaching my wife sitting on the front row, you know, my

00:36:49.620 children are eating ramen noodles and nobody else is in the room. Why don't like, why don't I lead

00:36:55.380 them what what like what audible word from the lord have i received that says joel weapon thou

00:37:01.420 must remain in san diego california all of thy days and i don't i don't have that call

00:37:08.280 i don't i'm allowed to leave and and man when i when i and so then i was i was excited i remember

00:37:16.940 you know presenting you know with my leaders and said like let's let's um let's move and that that

00:37:24.500 did not go over well. And so I ended up moving with, you know, a few families and, and, and we

00:37:31.060 smoothed it out. But, but at first I thought, cause I, I, you know, I've heard of a, there's

00:37:35.360 even a CREC church. I don't know if you've heard of them. They moved the whole church from San

00:37:39.560 Francisco to, to, I believe somewhere in Wyoming, like 90% of all the family, they all, they all

00:37:45.880 left and they left, I think one elder behind with, you know, about 10, you know, 10 other people

00:37:51.060 that merged with another faithful church in the area and that elders you know and so those people

00:37:56.120 were taken care of um but they were like hey we see the writing on the wall we got to call a spade

00:38:01.300 a spade like this is this is silly like sure god calls certain men to be missionaries in china

00:38:07.760 north korea and but eventually we're if things keep going this direction we're going to have to

00:38:12.080 start thinking of places like manhattan like san francisco in the ways that we've we've historically

00:38:17.140 thought about the Sudan, which means, do we abandon them? No. They need the gospel. They

00:38:22.560 need our resources. Everybody who's in flyover country, who's working, who can feed their family

00:38:27.260 and afford a house, we should be generous in giving our resources, our money. But we don't

00:38:31.720 send the average American Christian to the Sudan. There's a very specific criteria for a very unique

00:38:39.980 individual who's qualified to do that kind of difficult mission work, and it's not the average

00:38:44.940 Christian. But all of a sudden you take this global missions and you apply it domestically

00:38:51.360 and all those categories go out the window. Everybody's a missionary. And then you're just

00:38:58.400 sending out believers who are not this caliber of person on suicide missions to die. And somebody

00:39:07.220 writes a book and says, you don't have to do it. And then you try to kill him. I don't know what

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00:41:27.120 You know, when I was a younger man, you asked about being in the South.

00:41:30.580 Are there any lost people out here?

00:41:32.660 Years ago, I was telling the SBC we should do dollar for dollar on church planting.

00:41:40.660 We should do dollar for dollar investment in church revitalization because that's where God has blessed Southern Baptists.

00:41:48.880 And we're basically strategizing to drain them dry, to throw it into these cities that no one has shown a credible path of success.

00:41:59.740 And I'm a Calvinist.

00:42:00.680 God can do absolutely what He wants, but He works through means.

00:42:03.860 Somebody should be able to point and say, this is how it works.

00:42:07.560 And so I'm very much on board with that.

00:42:12.080 But as you just said, actually, I run into this.

00:42:14.540 We helped start a classical Christian school years ago.

00:42:17.340 I run into that in my area with people saying, well, we should have our kids in the government

00:42:22.500 school as salt and light. But it's the same thing you just said about the Sudan. We train adults

00:42:27.280 for years to live in a hostile anti-Christian culture and to survive. And I mean, we have

00:42:34.040 relationships with ministries and missionaries who have been doing that for years. And I know

00:42:38.600 the toil it takes on them. But because basically modern hipster culture became fashionable in the

00:42:45.980 earlier parts of the 2000s pastors wanted to live in cosmopolitan areas um they had a tim

00:42:53.140 keller fantasy and drink cause they wanted to feel like they were moving yeah they wanted to

00:42:58.040 feel like they were in some kind of sophisticated um strategically important area well they demanded

00:43:04.980 all these people who couldn't live on a cush evangelical insulation bubble or in one come

00:43:11.380 with them and support their lifestyle and again it's cope it's cope for their desire to feel like

00:43:17.240 they live an important significant meaningful life because the world told them that those

00:43:22.600 things happen in culturally elite cities right right here's another question i this one i haven't

00:43:29.460 fleshed out so this is i'm shooting from the hip here completely genuine it's not scripted

00:43:34.780 But I've been thinking, I want to do a deep dive on, look to the fields, you know, they're white with the harvest, and then seeing if there's any way, because I want to faithfully exegete, but see if there's any way in like, what does it mean for a harvest to be ripe?

00:43:54.800 and and then with that I keep thinking of Jesus saying I tell you the truth he is not far from

00:44:05.920 the kingdom and I can't remember exactly and I don't have it pulled up right now and I'm not

00:44:10.900 going to try to find it and waste our time but I I'm pretty sure working from memory that the man

00:44:17.860 that Jesus is speaking of that's not far from the kingdom isn't a man who doesn't know the difference

00:44:23.560 between a boy and a girl and who's murdering babies i'm pretty sure you correct me if i'm

00:44:29.020 wrong but the interaction the discourse between jesus and this particular man i don't think it

00:44:33.040 goes something like this jesus says you need to repent and believe and the man says well i've

00:44:36.940 been trans and kids all day and you know i'm an abortion doctor and i murder babies you know it's

00:44:40.980 just a lump of cells and love is love and then jesus says i tell you the truth he is not far

00:44:46.260 from the kingdom i don't think that's the way you know what i mean so whatever you know i again i'm

00:44:50.860 working from memory here, but whatever this man, whoever he was and whatever he was that

00:44:57.080 elicited the response out of the son of God to say he is not far from the kingdom.

00:45:05.160 You know what I mean?

00:45:05.940 So right now, go ahead.

00:45:09.680 I mean, maybe I'm too enthusiastic because this is where a lot of my thoughts are, but

00:45:14.140 I alluded to some of this earlier with agrarianism.

00:45:16.260 I think one of the things the evangelical church does not have is a theology of geography.

00:45:20.860 and a theology of political organization.

00:45:25.080 So I'm about to write a bunch of checks.

00:45:27.940 Listeners, Joel is not signing these checks I'm about to write.

00:45:32.160 Don't blame him for this.

00:45:34.520 But when I read the narrative of the Bible,

00:45:39.580 it looks to me like cities were initiated in Cain's refusal to honor the judgment God had laid on him.

00:45:48.420 You will wander the earth.

00:45:49.600 He says, no, I will not, and he begins a city.

00:45:53.980 And the progress of human devolution into sin follows most rapidly through cities.

00:46:02.460 Babylon, right?

00:46:04.120 You get to the end of the New Testament.

00:46:07.240 Rome is the new Babylon, right?

00:46:08.880 So I think that there is a degrading force that cities apply to humans.

00:46:21.040 I think scripture, I'm convinced of that.

00:46:23.300 I am absolutely persuaded that modern secular cities do that.

00:46:27.520 So, again, talking for me, but this is my read.

00:46:31.480 Tim Keller would tell you that all of history is moving towards a city.

00:46:34.640 When I see the New Jerusalem coming down, it actually looks like a walled garden.

00:46:40.360 It looks like an area of agricultural beauty and productivity that is protected by walls.

00:46:47.560 And because a good king has his authority there, the gates are open.

00:46:53.160 And what that tells me is not only are they not enemies, but the people who will be citizens of the New Jerusalem do not live within the walled garden.

00:47:02.280 They move in and out.

00:47:04.640 And so I actually think history is moving towards something like a great agricultural vision that I think sounds a lot like Adam making the whole earth a garden that is fit for communion between creation and creator.

00:47:25.340 I'm drawing heavily on C.S. Lewis in this, in Perilandra, when the fall is prevented.

00:47:30.440 spoiler alert for a book that was written in the 50s, I think, when the fall on that planet is

00:47:36.680 prevented, the atom of that planet says someday our descendants will go to the stars and they

00:47:43.300 will make those planets glorious for the creator. Doug Wilson has said, how do you have a great

00:47:49.960 dramatic story without an evil character? So in eternity, we will be living a great dramatic story,

00:47:55.940 but all enemies will be defeated and he says it will happen through challenge so the example he

00:48:01.620 gives is is pretty funny he says how do you grow 20 foot um cucumbers on mars i legitimately think

00:48:10.520 something like that is god's plan for the cosmos that not just the earth is made are you sure you're

00:48:17.020 not post-millennial i love it but yeah well go ahead go ahead again we don't need to get i think

00:48:22.380 there's overlap with uh on mill stuff here so i think that's what we're working toward

00:48:26.020 and i think that the keller influence i mean i'm a southern baptist keller persuaded us to dump all

00:48:32.680 of our resources into cities that we've made no meaningful impact on but which have back flushed

00:48:37.860 a lot of godless uh hatred of local churches into you know the churches that were sustaining them

00:48:43.640 i think we have it completely backward and we have no theology of geography or political

00:48:48.300 organization. And I think one of the things faithful pastors are going to have to do

00:48:52.620 is recover that. And so if you allow me, I've been talking. No, you're on it. But let me just

00:48:58.900 add to what you're saying. I think there's a lot there. It needs to be explored before we,

00:49:03.780 you know, say it's definitive gospel truth, but there is a lot there. I'm with you. And just to

00:49:08.280 add to it, statistically, somebody ran a study, I forget the guy's name, but it was really

00:49:12.760 interesting. I briefly skimmed over, but it was a study that basically said that there's a direct

00:49:17.780 correlation, like direct correlation between, um, voting, uh, liberal versus conservative

00:49:26.260 and, uh, and how far from the ground you live in the literal sense, how far from the ground,

00:49:35.520 not just like, you know, the metaphorical, you know, touch grass, bro, get outside.

00:49:39.860 But, but that, not even that expression comes from something, but saying that like people

00:49:43.220 who live in high rise, you know, penthouse apartment, like, uh, versus someone who has

00:49:47.740 a yard, then take someone who has an acre, then someone who has a farm, you know, like

00:49:53.200 there's a direct correlation.

00:49:55.540 I mean, it is, it is as sure as the sun will rise, you know, in the East and set in the

00:50:00.480 West.

00:50:00.780 I mean, it is just one for one.

00:50:02.980 Um, you've got land, you touch grass, you pick up dirt, you vote red, you know, you,

00:50:09.800 you live a hundred feet from the ground and that that's literally your house in a high right like

00:50:16.280 you vote blue and and i don't think that's just a coincidence exactly right go back to you well

00:50:22.620 and the greatest single factor on someone changing from voting progressive to conservative is having

00:50:28.660 a child and so um i think you're exactly right joel and i think it's because an agrarian lifestyle

00:50:36.020 keeps you immediately in contact with God's natural law. You're not able to suspend the

00:50:43.600 obvious reality that these things are happening, not just outside of your control, right? Like

00:50:48.640 the sun rising, but that there's a law that governs them. If there is not diligent work

00:50:53.940 and providential resources provided for you, your family won't eat. And so I don't want to put

00:51:00.160 people back in threat of starvation, but if you live in an environment where the food shows up

00:51:05.160 magically, and the food disappears magically. And every day you want more of it, more of it

00:51:10.560 magically shows up. You are at a remove from God's natural law. So I think there's a catechetical

00:51:16.660 reality that you live in, the closer you are connected to the ground. So the application

00:51:26.380 I was going to make on that, though, is, of course, I'm a guy who has pastored out in the

00:51:31.400 boonies, right? Where I'm at, positive world, neutral world, and negative world, assuming

00:51:39.120 your listeners are familiar with that, all three of those are present in my area. They're all still

00:51:44.540 here. We live in a university town. They're all here. So a version of this for me, what I'm about

00:51:52.680 to say is, practically speaking, pragmatically speaking, I could have a bigger church if I had

00:52:01.080 went with an entertainment model if i was giving away uh back in the earlier 2000s if i was giving

00:52:07.240 away iphones and ipods on high attendance sunday i could have bigger numbers right but my understanding

00:52:15.140 of what faithful pastoring looked like wouldn't allow that and so i've been in a lot of conversations

00:52:21.980 with people who would want to make some kind of adjustment or whatnot to what our elders had

00:52:26.560 determined was in the best interest of our church. And I would say something like, you're a great

00:52:31.900 Christian who's going to be a wonderful asset to a local church. I just don't think it's this one.

00:52:36.040 So let me help you find a nearby church that's going to be great for you. Right. So if you're

00:52:43.140 a pastor who's out in the dystopia of Gavin Newsom or wherever you're at, I think it is

00:52:51.940 possible for you to faithfully pastor a group of believers in that environment but you have to

00:52:58.060 radically adjust your understanding of what success looks like so like one of the things i'd be doing

00:53:04.200 with them is trying to figure out how do we get them growing stuff in an urban environment i think

00:53:08.780 that would be a great spiritual consequence not a magic bullet but how do we get them growing food

00:53:14.360 that they eat in an urban environment and if you'll let me go full redneck go um i grew up on

00:53:22.460 an angus beef farm i still look out my window and there's angus cattle out there um you might think

00:53:28.460 that a texas longhorn is very similar to an angus but there's an incredible difference

00:53:33.400 an angus who delivers a child has to basically be stationary for a prolonged period of time for that

00:53:40.780 uh i say child a calf for that calf to to thrive sorry yeah my bad you're a true farmer it's it's

00:53:48.800 it's a kid go ahead yeah it's offspring for sure a longhorn is much different because a longhorn

00:53:56.040 grazes on vast amounts of land and has to to survive they're much more like a buffalo a longhorn

00:54:04.460 drops a calf and mother and calf are within a very short matter of time less than two hours

00:54:11.500 able to stand up and rejoin the herd and keep moving and so if if you're someone who's pastoring

00:54:19.080 in some blue area brother you're pastoring longhorns and you're going to have to think

00:54:25.580 about what does it mean to stay agile to run leaner to have fewer resources

00:54:31.580 And that's got to be the approach rather than saying, no, you have to stay here with me in this godless Silicon Valley job and keep trying to basically afford me the lifestyle that I would have as a pastor in a deep red Bible Belt area in an area that's clearly not that.

00:54:55.000 Right. And guess what? If a pastor and an elder decide that's not best for their for the sheep they're shepherding, they should get out of there and go to an area that would allow them to do what's best for them.

00:55:07.520 Yep. I'm 100 percent. I think that's that's the equivalent of me being like, I'm going to give away iPods. Right. Right. Is that I that's just not what God called me to do as a pastor.

00:55:18.200 Right.

00:55:18.760 I completely agree.

00:55:19.900 I think it's either you get out in front of the flock and you lead them to the greener

00:55:24.800 pastures, or you stay and you recognize, like, you just, it can't be this halfway, you can't

00:55:33.360 have it both ways.

00:55:34.700 So either you get out with them and you lead them out, and that's great.

00:55:39.680 Or you stay as a missionary and you believe that missionary rhetoric that you keep spouting

00:55:46.480 um yeah and you reach that's right like who would expect who expects to go to the sudan

00:55:52.580 and have a mega church in a six-figure salary you don't so so don't expect that if you're in

00:56:00.220 manhattan you expect like i'm going to be paid probably peanuts by a small church uh you know

00:56:07.720 a remnant brigade of of serious christians who are trying to reach the lost and some of these

00:56:14.860 red state pastors uh they're going to make sure my kids don't star when things get rough by sending

00:56:19.860 me some some charity checks because it is a worthy endeavor and and that's uh and that's the call

00:56:25.960 and if that's what you want to do god bless you praise god yeah we need that but that's what it

00:56:32.760 is the thing yeah and the thing that kills me uh this isn't you know the the conversation here

00:56:38.480 isn't largely about you but again just on the theme that your book is just saying what normal

00:56:44.380 Christians are thinking through. The thing that kills me is that the critics of that idea of

00:56:50.660 moving, they apparently have never read church history. This is intrinsic to our life as the

00:57:01.820 church of Christ. I mean, if you go back and look, everybody loves the story of Polycarp's martyrdom.

00:57:07.060 polycarp was encouraged to flee the city in hopes that his life would be spared now you get this

00:57:15.340 impression from polycarp that polycarp don't care he's just honoring his friends but polycarp does

00:57:22.160 it he leaves the city he's eventually found but he leaves the city because someone said this is

00:57:26.740 not only a christian option there's some wisdom to it you know we would like to have you around

00:57:31.920 a little bit longer. And you go back and look at these controversies where persecution broke out.

00:57:39.380 I mean, reading Eusebius is a tremendous antidote to the nonsense of the criticism you're facing

00:57:45.160 because the bishops are having to tell a group of some people, it is okay to flee persecution.

00:57:51.220 So the bishops are telling some of them that you can feel free in your conscience to do that.

00:57:57.140 they're telling another group of people, it's a spiritual perversion that you are seeking

00:58:02.760 persecution and you should stop, right? And I think that latter version has some real parallels

00:58:09.440 for some of the people that we've been talking about here without naming them,

00:58:13.260 that they have this strange, and I'm going to say unhealthy, I'm not going to quite call them

00:58:18.320 perverted, but this unhealthy idea that sticking with hostile environments is somehow

00:58:26.280 a greater christian faithfulness when when literally all throughout church history

00:58:32.480 bishops have said it is very appropriate for you to leave those kind of areas right some of you

00:58:38.500 have been tempted to to think that is helpful and you should stop and even if you go all the way

00:58:43.960 back to the the earliest church and in the pages of holy scripture persecution disperses the church

00:58:50.760 out to further the great commission and that's matthew 24 you know jesus literally he gives them

00:58:57.980 the playbook and said and when it comes when you see that that you know the day of desolation run

00:59:04.000 and and you know the apostle paul's let out a basket out of a window to run away you know so

00:59:11.120 you have this and and then of course uh paul says i'm i'm gonna i'm going back uh to jerusalem and

00:59:17.500 And they're like, yeah, I could miss the prophet.

00:59:19.200 And like, if you do, you're going to be in trouble.

00:59:22.200 And he's like, I'm willing to be in trouble.

00:59:23.880 And so there's certainly, there's, there's risk for the gospel and willingness to, uh,

00:59:28.380 to suffer, to push, uh, the gospel forward.

00:59:31.220 But one of the things that, you know, I think about it, you know, with that, cause people

00:59:34.900 will cite that, um, and say, well, these were missionaries who were in difficult places.

00:59:39.940 And it's like, well, yeah, but I mean, the, like pretty much the entire church of Antioch,

00:59:44.240 I mean, the first half of the book of Acts centers on Jerusalem, you know, Peter.

00:59:49.100 The second half is Paul and Antioch.

00:59:51.780 And the reason for that geographic shift is because Jerusalem, the persecution ramps up so high that they have to get out of Dodge.

01:00:00.480 Now, here's one thing.

01:00:01.860 It's like, you know, people say, well, Ephesus, you know, it's not just Jerusalem, Ephesus and Gentile cities.

01:00:05.980 Yeah, because you're talking about a world that had never been Christianized.

01:00:10.560 You're talking about first generation Christians.

01:00:14.240 um the fact that we even have uh this concept fight by flight the fact that we have red states

01:00:20.260 to go to and and they need a lot of work too i'm not saying you know but like the fact that there

01:00:25.140 are some safe spots to go to that's that is the blessing of the gospel that's the fruit of the

01:00:31.860 gospel that's the fruit of the west of being being christianized for for centuries upon centuries

01:00:38.520 uh the fact that it's a gift that's right and so when when people are like well the apostles they

01:00:44.240 they didn't quit they didn't retreat they didn't run away you're post-millennial and yet which is

01:00:49.900 why i wrote a whole book because i knew that it would seem like an oxymoron right that you're

01:00:53.600 post-millennial and and but you moved from california to texas you're post-millennial

01:00:58.220 and you ran away well that's why you know i wrote the book but here's one of the things that these

01:01:02.760 guys don't understand is is there was nowhere to run to for first century christians like the whole

01:01:12.040 world hated christ um because he no nobody had been won to jesus nobody had been saved nobody

01:01:22.200 had been converted like the only the best chance of any nation any ethnicity any group of people

01:01:30.840 on the planet being, you know, in terms of, you know, hostile, neutral, and positive world,

01:01:37.140 negative and neutral and positive world, the best chance of there being a positive world

01:01:41.440 would have been the Jews. And he came to his own and they received him not. So that was his best

01:01:46.800 chance of any geographic place on planet Earth not being hostile towards Christianity. And the

01:01:54.800 best fighting chance for it, namely the Jews, put him to death and said, let his blood be on us and

01:02:02.660 our children forever, right? So where are the apostles? Yeah, where are the apostles going to

01:02:08.180 go? So it's like, well, the apostles didn't run away. No, they did run away. And when they ran

01:02:12.780 away, they ran from one hostile place to another hostile place to do it again and to do it again

01:02:18.360 and to do it again and to do it again. There was nowhere to go. So one, there's just two big

01:02:23.840 factors that we're missing. One, there's no safe place to run. Two, you're talking about apostles

01:02:29.980 of Jesus Christ, for Pete's sake. So, no safe place to run, and apostles. Well, I'm talking

01:02:37.480 about 2,000 years into Christendom, when there are some places to go, because the gospel's been

01:02:44.080 successful, and I'm writing, I'm not talking to apostles and what they should do. I'm writing to

01:02:50.100 your average Joe Christian as a pastor who, who just may not be cut out for San Francisco

01:02:58.940 and, and saying, if you do choose to leave, it's okay. And perhaps even here are some reasons,

01:03:07.480 perhaps you should leave, right? So okay, should, must, right? Permissible, should, and must.

01:03:14.960 The strongest I ever get in the book, and only at certain points, is a should.

01:03:19.520 Never, never a must, and most of it is a permissible.

01:03:25.320 But there are some should statements, I'll admit that, and I've made should statements

01:03:29.120 in podcasts, and I've made should statements in sermons, because guess what, Jeff?

01:03:34.840 I think that not all, but the vast majority of Christians in places like San Francisco

01:03:41.520 should leave.

01:03:43.140 That's my view.

01:03:44.540 Sue me.

01:03:44.960 you know, but I, and I don't think it's a crazy view. It, yeah. And I think you can thoroughly

01:03:51.280 support it with scripture. I think you can thoroughly support it exegetically, pragmatically

01:03:56.360 that at every single level. And I, I think that we win that way. I was talking with 80 Robles the

01:04:01.180 other day. He said, Joel, I think one of the reasons why they have to stop you is because

01:04:06.160 you're, what you're saying is a practical strategy that they know will work. If every

01:04:12.300 christian left these progressive places and stopped propping them up with their vote with

01:04:16.560 their tax dollar with with them getting more seats at a federal level because of the you know just

01:04:21.320 the the population and all this like if people did what you're saying there's this dangerous

01:04:27.240 balkanization you know that'll ruin the world if they did this fight by flight um then we we

01:04:33.720 actually might win and if we won all the guys who've been saying we lose down here what's their

01:04:40.480 excuse for why why they were losing for for decades if winning was actually possible like

01:04:47.840 if people do what you and Doug and Jeff and all other guys are saying these practical type things

01:04:53.700 if they actually follow the strategy we might win and if we win then then all of a sudden the light

01:05:03.040 turns on and people think of all you guys who were losing for so long you weren't losing because

01:05:10.460 Because you had to.

01:05:13.260 You were losing because you failed.

01:05:16.960 You're responsible for that losing.

01:05:19.640 Go ahead.

01:05:20.700 Or, I'll throw another one in there.

01:05:23.360 You're like the pro-life industry.

01:05:25.260 It profits you personally to stay losing.

01:05:28.200 To stay losing.

01:05:29.800 Instead of trying to abolish abortion.

01:05:31.600 Split the penny a million times.

01:05:33.040 And fundraise.

01:05:35.440 So, Joel, I'm going to go a long way around the horn.

01:05:38.640 But I think to this exact point, it's pretty illustrative.

01:05:41.680 I'm the rare Calvinistic Baptist who doesn't hate the Anabaptists.

01:05:47.000 I've learned a lot, particularly from the Swiss Brethren, people who've come out of Zwingli's movement.

01:05:55.260 Not everything, but I've learned things there.

01:05:59.080 And if you watch a group like Minnow Simon's group, who there's real problems with.

01:06:06.860 I'm not here to endorse, but if you just kind of watch what they did in history, when you're talking about there's nowhere to run to, what they would do is just move where the persecution wasn't active, right?

01:06:17.140 Nobody wanted them in town.

01:06:18.560 But when the persecution broke out, they'd go over to the town where nobody's got sword strong.

01:06:24.460 So that gives us, I mean, in a lot of ways, that gives us the historical continuity that culminates in today's Mennonites.

01:06:32.780 so this is this is super broad brush and super wise uh wide but hang with me on this so i live

01:06:40.620 in an area that has a ton of mennonites and i'm regularly doing business with mennonites now again

01:06:46.400 there's lots of problems in mennonite communities there's no panacea uh you know they're not the

01:06:52.500 christian tradition i'm a part of for a reason but they pass on their culture to their children

01:06:58.000 at a remarkably high rate um they have a high view of christ even if you and i would quibble

01:07:04.740 with some of those things so they're not a complete loss either they're not uh you know

01:07:09.600 they're not they're not mutilating them and removing their genitalia right so the people

01:07:14.620 around me who are uh buying a lot of the farms that are going up for sale that aren't being

01:07:22.300 turn into spec houses are Mennonites who get up every day and they live a life that's very

01:07:29.080 connected to the land, very connected to natural law. And God is really letting, in that sense,

01:07:36.440 the meek inherit the earth. And so again, I'm not saying it's a perfect roadmap, but these people

01:07:42.980 who just kind of said, look, where are we least threatened? We'll go try to survive there until

01:07:47.440 we can find a better life that strategy culminates in them in my area they're thriving they are

01:07:56.020 thriving so if i'm going to quibble with them theologically and i will i'm also going to say

01:08:01.480 what can i learn that's profitable for what i want to see for the christian church that is

01:08:07.980 more theologically healthy seven generations from now does that make sense yes sir well this i feel

01:08:15.920 like this has been, if nothing else, I don't know if none of my listeners, if they all get mad

01:08:21.580 at me for at least one person, myself personally, this has been a fruitful conversation. I feel

01:08:27.540 blessed. I feel encouraged to just to stay at it, to stick with it. So as we're landing the plane

01:08:33.740 here, is there anything else, a final thought that you want to leave us with? And of course,

01:08:37.900 also, please let us know about your ministry, your podcast, and how people can follow you.

01:08:45.920 Well, I'm on Twitter, Merely J. Wright, taking that from Lewis.

01:08:52.480 I'm on Gab at Wright Jeff, if anybody wants to interact with me on social media.

01:08:58.040 Two podcasts I do, one with Jared Moore called Pop Culture Quorum Deo.

01:09:01.620 I think Christians have been catechized through pop culture for a long time,

01:09:04.400 and so we wanted to start speaking directly to that.

01:09:07.420 Jared's someone who I hope God gives an increasing platform to.

01:09:10.780 I'm trying to feed him.

01:09:11.600 And then with Ben, my buddy Ben, we're doing Backwoods Belief, which is kind of some of the stuff we're talking about.

01:09:20.280 We think Christianity is going to thrive on the margins.

01:09:22.760 So how do we give particular attention to that?

01:09:25.740 I'm happy for anybody to listen to those if they want to and connect with me through those.

01:09:31.800 The final thought I would just kind of throw in the hopper is I'm convinced that the local church always has to be the center of any thought about where you're going to live.

01:09:41.600 long-term. And so Joel's model of the local church deciding we want to live somewhere else

01:09:48.240 long-term is a healthy model. I'm going to look to leave. Should my local church help me decide

01:09:55.520 where the best place is? Yeah, if you've got a godly elder, they should be speaking into that

01:09:59.700 and helping you. Is that a sweet set of land prices over there? And they vote the way I want.

01:10:07.460 and i'm sure there's some good churches there and i'll just find one that one's actually kind

01:10:11.920 of dangerous as a guy who lives in the deep south i know lots of people who drive very great

01:10:18.620 distances to come to find a healthy church and i know a lot of people who've moved and it took them

01:10:23.540 more than a year sometimes more than one two years to find a church they could thrive in and so

01:10:29.200 whatever you're doing on these fronts listening to joel's advice make sure the local church is at

01:10:34.840 the heart of all of it it's not a magic bullet that fixes every problem but it is that it's

01:10:40.080 the institution that has god's promises and you need to stay close to it amen well said yeah coming

01:10:45.680 you're going to find more christians you're probably going to find better prices you're

01:10:50.520 going to find better politics you're going to find a healthier safer environment to raise your kids

01:10:55.120 but uh good churches whether it's red red state blue state uh good churches don't grow on trees

01:11:02.420 at least not right now

01:11:05.300 Joel thanks for having me on man and I hope you just

01:11:07.400 keep

01:11:08.320 at it man I hope you feel like you have wind in your

01:11:11.300 sails I hope you realize you're over target

01:11:13.420 keep speaking up for

01:11:15.340 normal Christians man that's where

01:11:16.660 that's the bride of Christ

01:11:18.360 he's committed himself to her and I think

01:11:21.360 it's a wise strategy to stay close

01:11:23.340 to her. Amen. Thanks Jeff

01:11:25.120 I appreciate your encouragement thanks for coming on the show

01:11:32.420 Thank you.

The NXR Podcast - September 05, 2023

THEOLOGY APPLIED - Christians Are Moving To Red States, Whether We Like It Or Not ｜ with Jeff Wright

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