Pastor Michael Roundtree with Wellspring Church in Bedford, TX joins us to discuss the controversial topic of Christians and birth control. In this episode, Pastor Roundtree and I discuss the benefits and drawbacks of birth control, and why we believe the Bible has something to say on the matter.
00:02:15.260I'm about two thirds of the way through on the book of Revelation.
00:02:19.220And I'm going to try to demystify it a little bit and walk through chapter by chapter, but do it in a way that's inspirational and devotional.
00:02:26.540So anyway, you can look for that coming down the road.
00:02:38.420And again, our topic is going to be Christians and birth control.
00:02:41.180There's a lot of different views on this subject, and it certainly tends to be controversial, at least for some.
00:02:47.580But I think it's something worthwhile, something worth talking about, and I believe the Scripture addresses it.
00:02:52.700Both Michael and I, we don't only tip our hat to the inerrancy of Scripture, but we also believe in the sufficiency of Scripture.
00:02:59.920When it comes to the perspicuity of Scripture or the clarity, perspicuity is just a very unclear word that means clarity.
00:03:06.560And so a bit of irony there, but the perspicuity of scripture, we believe the scripture is clear.
00:03:11.680That doesn't mean the scripture is equally clear on all subjects, on all topics, but we do believe that the scripture is clear.
00:03:17.900And we do believe that it speaks to all of life and doctrine and that the scripture is not just authoritative, inerrant, but that it's also sufficient, meaning that it can be applied, that it has something to say for all of life.
00:03:31.220So the kind of an illustration that's helpful is just, you know, a sword, you know, the scriptures likened to a double edged sword or sharper than any double edged sword.
00:03:38.940And so we don't want to just tip our hats to the authority of scripture and say, there's a sword.
00:03:46.100And you can see it on the mantle clearly displayed in the glass case.
00:03:49.740Well, we want to go a step further and say, and we're going to wield the sword like founders, Tom Askel and Jared Longshore, those guys, you know, wield the sword.
00:03:57.620We're going to pick it up and we're going to actually use it.
00:03:59.860We don't just acknowledge that is a sword, but we want to be useful with the sword.
00:04:03.440We believe it's not just sharp, but it's also sufficient.
00:04:06.920So all that being said, we believe the Bible speaks to this issue.
00:04:09.880That doesn't mean that the Bible speaks to this issue as clearly as it might speak to salvation or other issues.
00:04:16.600However, we think the Bible has something to say.
00:04:19.020And so I just kind of want to pick Michael's brain, and we're just going to dialogue and talk back and forth.
00:04:22.920And I'm not even convinced that we'll agree on every finite detail and nuance.
00:04:27.300In fact, I'm pretty certain we probably won't.
00:04:29.860But I think in general, we both have the same idea because we both have the same Bible and the same Lord.
00:04:35.080And we love him and we love each other.
00:04:37.220So that being said, let's go ahead and just jump right in.
00:04:39.500The first question that I have is, what is the cultural mandate found in Genesis 1, verse 28?
00:04:46.880And is it equally as binding on New Testament Christians today, now that the world contains nearly 8 billion people, as it was on Adam and Eve in the very beginning?
00:04:56.960So the cultural mandate, be fruitful and multiply.0.87
00:04:59.480We're talking about birth control. Well, the idea of being fruitful, multiplying, I think a lot of Christians would say, haven't we done that, Michael, Joel?
00:05:07.960I feel like, you know, like there's a lot of things we've messed up as human beings, but can't we check that one off the list?
00:05:12.920You know, I think we nailed it. So is the cultural mandate as relevant today as it was in the garden?
00:05:18.440Yeah. Well, is it helpful to let all the pagans have the kids and we Christians, we can just try to convert the pagans?
00:05:25.600Is that? So, yeah, let me just read the cultural mandate. Genesis 128, God blessed them. God said
00:05:34.340to them, be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it. So it wasn't just about
00:05:41.020filling the earth with sufficient population, but also subduing it, have dominion over the
00:05:48.600fish of the sea and the birds of the air, the heavens and the living creatures and all that
00:05:51.840moves. And so the point in man having dominion was to make the earth look like God rules over
00:06:00.700it. And so I think one question I would ask is, yes, we have lots of people, but has this
00:06:07.080mass multiplication of people caused the earth to look like God rules over it? I would say no.
00:06:14.200Okay. So, and I think most of us would. So just as God rules over the heavens and the earth,
00:06:19.680man was to rule over the earth. And then to kind of zoom forward New Testament, I do think there is
00:06:25.680a connection between the Great Commission, therefore go and make this all authority on
00:06:31.840heaven and earth. So you see the kingdom dimension, which carries with it a subduing and a filling and
00:06:38.200subduing the earth. There's certainly connection. We see kingdom in seed form and the cultural0.95
00:06:43.700mandate in Genesis 1. We see it more fully in Jesus resurrected as cosmic Lord and King.
00:06:51.200And then he commissions us. And what I would say is the Great Commission is not a replacement
00:06:59.240of the cultural mandate. The Great Commission is in some ways like a renewal of, because Adam and
00:07:07.220Eve were always called, and their offspring always called, Genesis 3, the seed of the
00:07:14.060woman was always called, Israel was always called to be a light to the nations. Israel
00:07:19.700wasn't chosen to just have a bunch of babies in their own little cloister over here in
00:07:23.880Palestine. Israel was chosen to be a light to the nations. So in a sense, they were called
00:07:30.440to make disciples. Now, did Jesus bring clarity as to what it looks like to make disciples?
00:07:51.700There is greater revelation, et cetera, in Jesus.
00:07:55.700But I would look at the Great Commission as almost like a renewal of the cultural mandate,
00:08:03.660not a replacement of i'm not saying they're exactly the same thing but i like that yeah
00:08:11.400yeah so the great commission doesn't replace the cultural mandate it's a renewal and i would i
00:08:16.700would agree with that i would for me i would probably just maybe even use the language of
00:08:20.240like it's it's a clarification i like what you said like just clear you know i think that both
00:08:25.260of us would agree in terms of old testament saints in regards to soteriology how they were saved we
00:08:30.280would say that all people in all times and all places before the cross after the cross have only
00:08:34.760been saved in one way and that's through by grace through faith in in the messiah in christ and what
00:08:40.580we have on this side of the cross is we have the privilege and it is a great privilege to be able
00:08:45.980to look back with greater clarity at the person and work of jesus whereas old testament saints
00:08:51.400before the cross were trusting in jesus but for adam and eve well you know all they really knew
00:08:57.020of jesus is that he was the serpent crusher you know and and abraham he knew that he was the
00:09:02.380promised seed you know and and so there's you know david knew that he was that he was a king
00:09:06.620and the government would be upon his shoulders and that he would sit one day as on his throne
00:09:10.880and rule the nations and righteousness and you know and so we have this further kind of progressive
00:09:15.300clarifying revelation of the savior in terms of of salvation but that doesn't mean that there's
00:09:21.720a new way now that people are saved it means they're all saved the same way and we're just
00:09:24.880learning more about it and uh and i think in the same way taking dominion over the earth i think
00:09:29.820there's there's a clarifying in the great commission and the great commission is a
00:09:33.580clarifying in many ways a clarification of the cultural mandate i don't think it's meant to
00:09:37.660replace it i i like the language that it's meant to renew it refresh it um but i think in some
00:09:43.520ways it's kind of like with jesus in the sermon of the mount you've had you know you've heard it
00:09:47.280has um you you have heard it has been said or it has been written um but i tell you you know and
00:09:53.180Jesus isn't coming and replacing the law, but he's, he's clarifying.
00:09:57.000But I tell you, if you even lessen your heart, you know, or I tell you, you know,
00:10:00.420and, and so Jesus is, he's, he's further clarifying.
00:10:03.720He's, he's further describing and detailing the tenets of the law and the Sermon on the Mount.
00:10:08.780And I think Jesus likewise, kind of the same concept, same principle.
00:10:12.300I think that he's giving us more clarity, more vision on the great or the cultural mandate.
00:10:17.940I think in the garden with Adam and Eve, this mandate before sin had ever even entered the world, I think there were some assumptions baked into the equation.
00:10:27.400This idea that Adam and Eve were going to produce godly offspring, you know.
00:10:32.600But after the fall, after sin enters the world and then after Christ, it's like, hey, keep being fruitful and multiplying.
00:10:39.300But let's bring in the discipleship piece with more clarity because it can't be assumed any longer.
00:16:42.140So when we say that Christians are called, we're called to be not just Christians, but people, the cultural mandate is given to all people to be fruitful, multiply, to fill the earth and subdue it.
00:16:50.580We're not saying because people say, man, well, that's that's why we have a problem overpopulation.
00:16:55.980Things that both of us would would strongly push back on.
00:16:59.380But my point is that this dominion, it's it's the same dominion that a loving husband exercises with his wife, that Christ exercises with the church.
00:17:07.320It's a dominion that cultivates the earth.
00:17:09.280It doesn't consume the earth for self-interested, you know, like it takes the raw wilderness of the earth, cultivates it, and taps it for its greatest potential.
00:29:27.720It's the house and the house and the city being built up, being protected.
00:29:32.840And that part about arrows in the hands of a warrior, the idea there is that, you know, like if I'm standing here and I take an arrow and I shoot it, the arrow ends up over there.
00:34:19.220Okay. It's not that hard, right? But if you want to be a good parent, that is hard. And so I look at it like, you know, as a general rule, we should want to have lots of kids because God values kids. Therefore, I should value kids.
00:34:39.100If I'm close to God, I will feel about things the way God feels about things.
00:34:44.860And if I feel differently about things than God does, that's because I'm not close to God, or at least not in that area.
00:34:56.980Because I think we have to start there before we get into the nitty-gritty of birth control, which is why you kind of have this series of questions starting very big.
00:35:05.060I think that's important because we establish the value first
00:35:09.640because we might disagree on some of the finer points
00:35:32.200I would invite you to receive prayer for that
00:35:34.640And lots of people in the Bible received prayer for that and got a miracle.
00:35:40.060Yeah, but anyway, but that's actually part of the calling of marriage and a high and holy calling and how we make this earth look more like the kingdom of heaven, more like God reigns.
00:36:48.720We can talk more about that later if you want.1.00
00:36:50.300But anyway, so she's planning to have more kids, but her uterus is so thin that they said it's1.00
00:36:58.980like a transparency. Like it's so thin, it could just rupture and kill. And so she sees it as this1.00
00:37:04.760is my martyrdom to give children life. But it would be a martyrdom, in my opinion, in my opinion.
00:37:10.620Although I actually really respect her as a woman of faith that she's like, I want to do this for
00:37:15.800God. I get it. And she does love Jesus. I've, you know, and, and she has a proper understanding
00:37:21.300of the gospel. Um, anyway, but with that said, I, I look at it, I'm like, okay, martyr, but what
00:37:29.280about your other five kids that you presently have and your husband, you know, um, health of
00:37:35.400the mother, I think is a reasonable reason. I agree. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. Um, uh,
00:37:45.420I guess the other question is economic, because that's honestly the biggest one that people are thinking about, because once upon a time, having more kids meant more hands in the field.
00:38:03.280Now it means more mouths to feed, and the way inflation is working right now, I don't know about your grocery bill, but mine's like $300 more than it was three years ago.
00:38:15.420um and like with with just the way the world is like most families either do or feel like they
00:38:24.060they need to have uh dual income like there's so many factors and um here's i think what i would
00:38:32.700say um i i first of all i would just stick with the high level standard of kids are a blessing
00:38:41.180And then I would go from there to God provides daily bread.
00:38:47.140So I would aim to trust God to have lots of kids and trusting that he would provide.
00:38:55.460And I believe he gives great jobs to people who have more kids because they need it,
00:39:11.180Um, for the people of God, I think I have a little, a little trouble with that. I kind of
00:39:17.420feel like, you know what, if it's the cultural mandate and God should supply, uh, the finances
00:39:22.380for it, um, that would probably, I don't know. I, I, I would wrestle with it. It's not like
00:39:28.700something I would excommunicate someone from my church over by any stretch, but it's something
00:39:33.760that like, if I was just sharing my pastoral heart, my pastoral heart would be, you know what,
00:39:39.060I would just really encourage you to trust the Lord with that.
00:39:42.040Right. And they just may have to make some changes.
00:39:44.180I think part of it is like a willingness to adjust your life, you know, to, to, you know, for the sake of your children, to lay your life down, to lay your preferences down.
00:39:54.360And so there may, there just may be some changes.
00:39:56.380It may be that you have to take a job that's not your favorite job, or it may be one that you have to move, you know?
00:44:35.500I think the Bible says the exact opposite.
00:44:37.000It says, on the outside, image of God, capable of curing cancer and creating suspension bridges and finding new sources for fuel and finding new ways to plant more crops and feed not just 8 billion people, but potentially 80 billion people, you know.
00:45:20.740Because we can't, whereas the Christian would say, on the outside, you're made in the Imago Dei.0.99
00:45:25.520And people are not consumers, first and foremost.
00:45:29.320Because you're made in the image of God, people are not consumers.
00:45:33.660they are creators lowercase c creators not like you said earlier not x in the helo but we're able
00:45:38.580to take the resources that god has provided us with and cultivate them um and and and create a
00:45:44.840lowercase c create not out of nothing but with what god has provided and and do incredible things
00:45:49.540and so as a christian i keep thinking you know over the last 48 years of of since roe versus
00:45:54.580wade 60 million babies murdered in their mother's wombs um you know it's it's funny that christians
00:46:00.300It's not funny. It's sad. But Christians who have bought into this overpopulation thing and this pagan anthropology view of man, I think that they would never say it out loud.0.94
00:46:11.540They would never verbalize it. But I think if we strapped them to a chair and gave them truth serum and asked them point blank and forced them to answer, I think they would have to say the fact that these children were aborted is murder.0.91
00:46:22.520It's wrong. It's heinous. But then that would all be followed with a quiet sigh of relief.
00:46:28.660and i know that's a strong words but like in their heart of hearts but it is kind of nice
00:46:34.640there's 60 million less people you know because look at the world and look at the toll and you
00:46:41.220know look look at you know this and look at that and you know i mean covid that's that's that's
00:46:45.880because of climate change i mean it's got to be you know and that wouldn't have happened if you
00:46:49.680weren't driving your f-150 and you know and so and so my point is just to say that as a with the
00:46:54.560Christian worldview and my anthropology, my view of man, I see people as creators. So I look at the
00:46:59.00060 million children in the last half of a century that had been murdered. And I think which one of
00:47:03.780them could have cured cancer, which one of them could have found some new source of energy,
00:47:08.780which one of them could have found a new way of growing crops to feed, you know, a hundred times
00:47:13.060more people, you know what I mean? Like people make way for, for people. So yeah, absolutely.
00:47:18.660For sure. No, I think that's a great point. I mean, when we think about like overpopulate, like what are we afraid of might happen if we overpopulate the earth? If you overpopulate the earth, people might die.
00:47:33.600hmm let's think about that for a minute what's better like even in your worst case scenario
00:47:39.280is it is it better that somebody never lives than that they live and then die like all of us do
00:47:47.480anyway i think i'd still be better to have people live and die right like like their worst case
00:47:53.420scenario is actually not that bad um right i didn't plan to come on your episode and quote
00:47:59.380gandhi um but he does have a really good quote he says there's enough for everybody's need but not
00:48:05.920for everybody's greed and the reality is that there actually is enough resource in the world
00:48:12.300for all people even if you multiply lots of people uh last i checked it was something like
00:48:17.260three americans three own 50 percent of wealth in america you just think about that um you think
00:48:28.100about think about this of the top 100 it's been a while since i looked this up it'll be give or
00:48:34.240take given give or take but uh of the top 100 top gdps in the world if you include corporations
00:48:41.460and not just nations on that list something like only 20 something 27 of them are actual nations
00:48:48.920the rest are corporations these corporations have massive amounts of wealth they could totally do
00:48:55.000lots of philanthropy um i'm not like anti-rich people or anything like that what i am saying is
00:49:02.340if if people shared the morals of christ then the poor would be taken care of and the overpopulation
00:49:10.240wouldn't be such an issue um or wouldn't even become an issue so i would say hey what if the
00:49:16.420issue wasn't uh or what if the solution was not let's kill and prevent life what if the solution
00:49:23.980was let's not be greedy punks right like let's actually give to the poor as a way of life now
00:49:33.360can i convince um let's also i would add to that let's not be lazy punks and rely on the welfare
00:49:40.460state and not work for sure both sides then we'd have a lot less poor people yes absolutely go
00:49:48.580ahead that's that's the capitalist in me i had to had to say something there yeah you're starting
00:49:52.740I'm a little socialist, so I just had to push back.
00:49:57.960Hey, I told you, I'm not anti-rich people.
00:50:01.340I've been listening to too much Thomas Sowell lately.
00:58:23.360And so sometimes it kind of passes under the radar for Christians, I think.0.97
00:58:27.200And I think Christians will innocently get an IUD or they'll innocently take the pill.0.90
00:58:33.260Now, the pill has other issues, too, and it affects hormones.0.98
00:58:35.340And so, for instance, I'm thinking of a Christian couple in my church that they were on the pill and they were telling me about it afterward.
00:58:46.380They were saying, we got on the pill and then we got off.
00:58:49.400And the reason we got off is because they didn't know anything about the abortion side of things.
00:58:53.860But they were talking about the effect that it had upon her.
00:58:59.120She's getting pounding headaches and all of these different, like she was just having these emotional swings.
00:59:04.680It does affect you hormonally. That's something to consider. Um, now, um, anyway, so I, I would
00:59:11.880just say, Google it, do your research. I wouldn't feel comfortable getting, uh, either of those.
00:59:16.780It sounded like that's where you stand too, Joel. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, no, I, great job,
00:59:21.640but that's, that's what I would have said. And, and I do, you know, to flesh it out like a little
00:59:26.040bit more, like I, um, you know, cause I remember, you know, at my previous church in San Diego,
00:59:31.040I remember with my elders, you know, I don't know, maybe five years ago.
00:59:36.580But we were working through this issue, and we disagreed in terms of whether or not we should actually put it in our membership covenant for formal membership in the church in terms of specifically the pill.
00:59:52.120But we came to the same conclusions fairly quickly because you're right.
00:59:55.880All it takes is a little bit of research.
00:59:57.100And there were people, I noticed just pastorally as I dealt with congregants, there were occasionally times where people, part of the reason they had no clue wasn't just because they were ignorant, but part of the reason they didn't Google it, they didn't search it, because they actually did ask.
01:00:11.300They asked their doctor, and their doctor assured them that it was not abortive because, come to find out, a lot of the scientific community has changed the definition of when human life begins in the womb.
01:00:24.860So they've changed it from what we would hold and what we would say that Christendom has held for a very long time in terms of fertilization.
01:01:03.920So, yeah, so they don't if you look up the Hobby Lobby case where Hobby Lobby went all the way to the Supreme Court over Obamacare and all of this, like what Hobby Lobby was calling an abortion.
01:01:18.600And The Atlantic wrote an article about this some time ago, I remember.
01:01:21.580But anyway, what Hobby Lobby is calling an abortion is they're saying, hey, if it's fertilized and it kills that fertilized egg, that is an abortion.
01:01:36.160And so as Christians, we would say, yes, the fertilization of the egg, that is when life begins.
01:01:42.980So as a pastor, I would recommend people don't get an IUD.
01:01:46.540I would recommend people don't do the pill.
01:01:50.500Um, there are other forms of birth control. There is, uh, there are condoms. Uh, there are, uh, of course, and there's natural family planning and they can, they're getting pretty sophisticated with that now. Um, abstinence. There's natural planning. Yeah. Well, I'm just saying you just, I'm saying abstinence in marriage. You're waiting for a second.
01:02:14.820yeah yeah but even in marriage like you know paul talks about like you could for a season you could
01:02:21.480abstain abstain he uses the word abstain for a season to devote yourselves to prayer yeah yeah
01:02:26.640absolutely so uh so i think that's uh that those are reasonable i so i would just say um for the
01:02:34.820everyday married couple probably my pastoral recommendation would be a condom i know there's
01:02:40.780in some ways maybe not preferable but um it's also not preferable to kill babies and so that's
01:02:48.460right um and so right that's why and you don't have to you know just we're not trying to be frank0.98
01:02:53.020or crude but just to be helpful and to be clear you the way that a woman's anatomy works you don't1.00
01:02:58.940have to wear a condom as a husband every time that uh you make love to your wife uh there's0.90
01:03:04.560only certain times where you know if you're in that time you're trying to wait um you need to
01:03:11.120wear a condom when she's ovulating you know and so you might do a you might say well man you're
01:03:15.200getting kind of risky go ahead go ahead right so you're suggesting maybe a combination of natural
01:03:20.520family planning with condom during fertile days yeah is that kind of what yeah and then yeah well
01:03:27.780i'm saying condom i'm saying even like get the family planning out of there just just condom
01:03:33.700during fertile days and then have at it you know the rest of the time now i mean just you know that
01:03:38.620that's i think between the husband and the wife and i think that some of these things are worth
01:03:43.100bringing a pastor in i think that can be done appropriately where godly counsel can be given
01:03:48.160and where you're not being crude and you're not being um inappropriate um but even even with that
01:03:54.980i think you there's there needs to be a carefulness like what are your motives what are you
01:03:59.580you know what are you trying to do is it just because we just really wanted to go on that
01:04:03.060vacation or we just really, you know, there's, there's serious questions to ask, but real quick,
01:04:07.100I just did want to comment on the, the hormonal birth control pill, uh, just so, cause some people
01:04:11.860may not understand exactly how it works. And in a nutshell, from what I've been able to, you know,
01:04:15.880doing my research as a pastor so that I could counsel people in the church, I, um, you know,0.97
01:04:21.160there's three main, um, measures of, of stopping pregnancy, um, or, you know, having a woman not
01:04:29.160get pregnant two of them are preventative but but the last one is abortive and so one is the
01:04:33.420thickening of the cervical fluid uh to where the the sperm just can't you know unlikely that they're
01:04:39.060going to make it through that's kind of you know too thick they can't swim um the second is uh
01:04:43.640stopping the ovulation process so that you know even the if the sperm make it through the thickened
01:04:48.360cervical fluid um there's not an egg at the at the end of the journey for them to to um to fertilize
01:04:54.060and then the third is a thinning and then this is the one that matters it's the thinning of the
01:04:58.440uterine lining and um and and that's the one that would not be preventative but that that would be
01:05:05.260abortive if we believe that life begins at fertilization and so um that that would mean
01:05:10.360that if a if a sperm could make it to the egg and did fertilize the egg the egg would have nowhere
01:05:14.760to go it would not have a hospitable um environment habitat for um and so it would it wouldn't be able
01:05:22.060to attach to to the lining of the uterine wall and it would fall off and here's and here's one
01:05:25.900of the tragic things and again i think a lot of christians just they don't know they're not
01:05:29.720educating their doctors sure as heck aren't helping them because they have a worldview that's
01:05:34.300antithetical to to the christian worldview not all doctors there could be a christian doctor but
01:05:38.200many doctors and and so one of the the side effects long-lasting effects is christians get
01:05:43.400off of the pill christian women get off of the pill and and and they want to get pregnant and
01:05:49.160they want to have a baby or maybe they just come to the conviction we're not going to use the pill
01:05:51.920anymore um but but what what is possible not in all cases but what is possible is that the cervical
01:05:58.140fluid uh that you know one of the effects was it's thickening from the pill well that effect
01:06:03.300can uh will drop off quickly when you go off the pill um ovulation that that you could go back to
01:06:09.400an ovulation healthy ovulation cycle quickly when you go off the pill um but but there's been you
01:06:15.200know research done that um the the uterine wall the lining um may may not thicken for for several
01:06:23.480months even in some cases a year or two and so a husband and wife go off the pill and let's say
01:06:29.180they're christians and and they don't know this and so now they're trying to get pregnant and
01:06:34.800unbeknownst to them you know the the the sperm is getting through she's ovulating the egg is in
01:06:42.100place it's being fertilized and they have no clue but it's her her uterine lining the egg has nowhere
01:06:48.040to go dead dead and that could that could happen every month for months they could they could
01:06:54.800inadvertently and i know this is strong language but i want people to feel the weight of it
01:06:57.940so i want to be sympathetic to to the ignorance but they could inadvertently kill six children
01:07:04.340now that's a real scenario and if we think in biblical terms of what a child you know
01:07:09.580That is the, I think, the accurate language that a Christian couple could inadvertently, emphasis on that, inadvertently kill six of their own children.
01:07:22.880And so it is, it's a really, it's a big deal.0.96
01:07:26.720And I think it's so foreign to so many Christians are like, what?
01:07:29.680You guys think that the birth control, like you guys are so conservative, you know, and it's like, no, I mean, it's a pretty easy argument to make.
01:08:00.920So I think where I would stand on that, I think there could be situations like a health of the mother, health of the father, I guess.
01:08:08.920well, father, I don't know how much that's an issue, but health of the mother, uh, uh, particularly,
01:08:15.400um, I could see an issue there. Um, I could also see, I don't know, I would be open to this, like,
01:08:22.400um, someone's having a baby at 39 or 40 and it's kind of like getting up there in years and maybe
01:08:28.220they have a C-section of doctors. Like, do you want us to tie the tubes now? I could see the,
01:08:32.240the woman maybe saying yes, because like, do I want to have a baby at 41, 42? These are risky
01:08:37.080pregnancies you know i could see those scenarios i could see that yeah and and so uh but i think
01:08:43.660i would just say i just be real careful with it like the idea of like being 34 years old and
01:08:49.340getting a vasectomy because you have your two kids uh i would be against that um but really
01:08:55.140all of this just all of it comes back to motive you know i won't say all of it so some of it comes0.76
01:09:01.240back to, am I killing a baby or not? Once we get past that into maybe potentially permissible
01:09:09.180territory, it's what is my motive? Is it to protect the health of the mother? Is it to go on
01:09:18.820more Caribbean vacations? What's my real motive here? Is it because children are hard and I don't
01:09:24.160want more children? So much comes back to motive. I think the other thing I would say,
01:09:29.740Now, my view toward church history is that church history, okay, so the Bible is my authority,
01:09:39.560sola scriptura, right? But I would say that church history provides a guardrail, right?
01:09:46.060Like, so if somebody believed what the church has believed for 2,000 years, as their pastor,
01:09:51.400I'm going to feel comfortable, like, oh, okay, good, you believe what the church has believed.
01:09:54.320It's when we get outside of what the church has historically believed. Hey, I got a new
01:09:58.420doctrine I just, you know, God revealed to me. Like, no. Right. So church history is important
01:10:05.000in that regard, even if it is, you know, below scripture in authority. And what I would say on
01:10:12.020that is that throughout church history, the church has actually been against birth control
01:10:16.380and including the reformers, our beloved John Calvin. That's right. Yep. That's right. And,
01:10:24.080you know name a reformer i i again it's been some time but i i've read just tons and tons of church
01:10:32.800history on this i don't think i ever found anyone that was okay with it so like there actually is a
01:10:39.340reason that the roman catholic church holds the position that they do yeah it it grew out of that
01:10:44.880and so um i i have sympathy toward that position you know like the duggars you know 19 and counting
01:10:53.160what is it 22 and counting i don't even know what it's at now i think the danger like somebody who
01:10:57.900comes out of the quiver full movement is if they try to put that on everyone and say everybody
01:11:02.600needs to have 22 kids or they're sinning right like that's a problem i think but um but if
01:11:09.240somebody just decides to have a whole bunch of kids on their own i ain't got no problem with it
01:11:13.160i think that's great yeah it's not and i it's i i would actually argue that in many ways
01:11:18.680it it it seems to be the easier position to defend yeah i would agree i would agree it seems
01:11:27.240to be the easy so i think like i think you have to be careful if you're you know if you're of the
01:11:34.000the quiverful mentality which just for the record i think you and i would both say that we're of
01:11:38.620the quiver like we believe psalm 127 right so like what are we going to say we're not like
01:11:44.480Yeah, like we're inerrant us and we, you know, Sola Scriptura, but Psalm 127, you know, we just opt out of that.
01:11:50.960Like, so I want to have a full quiver.
01:11:53.740I think what we're quibbling over with the quiver, the quiver quibble is, you know, is, I don't know, what is a full quiver?
01:12:03.580You know, like eight might, you know, that sounds like a pretty full quiver, you know, and then somebody else is 22 or nothing, you know, and like, you know.
01:12:10.920And so now, now to be fair to the guys who would hold to like onanism being a sin, you know, and the quiverful mentality, I think what they would say is like, well, you don't have to determine a number.
01:12:38.060So, you know, what, what, you know, what, what's the counter?
01:12:40.920yeah yeah no i think it's tough i i mean it's an easy position to defend so it is it is but okay
01:12:50.380if i was to try to like maybe try our more moderating position so like okay giving is a
01:12:58.280blessing right giving financially do you agree with that it's more blessed to give than receive
01:13:02.760does that mean that in every single scenario that um if you want the most blessed life you
01:13:09.520will literally give away every penny that you have because it's more blessed see okay so just
01:13:16.440you know just for fun i'll i'll play that so that's a good one um so what i would say is yes
01:13:21.080um i think every um every christian uh and not just every christian here's the irony i would say
01:13:27.240every single human being by by necessity does give away every penny they have um through death
01:13:33.360and the question is um the only reason that we wait to give our pennies now is so that we can
01:13:38.420give more pennies later so i am going to give every penny i have and so are you whether you
01:13:42.880like it or not to something or someone i would like to give them to my children and grandchildren
01:13:47.700and to the church of christ so i want to give it to the church and but first of course my children
01:13:52.600and children's children a wise man a good man leaves inheritance for his children's children
01:13:56.460and the only reason like the prodigal son that that i don't want to give you know the reprobate
01:14:01.780son. Um, his, his part portion of the inheritance, uh, today is because I want to give him more
01:14:08.260later and I had like him to be a little older and a little bit more mature and able to steward it
01:14:12.420better, but just, you know, I, so I would say, yeah, we do want to give every penny. And the
01:14:16.840only reason we don't give them all today is because we want to be able to give more pennies
01:14:19.680later. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. Um, I, where I was going with it was if
01:14:30.900it is always more blessed to give than to give than to receive then there's a feasible scenario
01:14:39.720well yeah i don't know that's a that's a that's a pretty decent response joel i don't know what i
01:14:45.000would say thank you it just came to me because again i've been i've been reading a decent amount
01:14:50.400of thomas soul lately so economics has been been on the brain but i i know your general point i
01:14:56.140know what you're making and just saying that like yeah like is it i think it's what i was saying
01:15:01.560earlier in terms of just um is there something to be said for for timing is there something to
01:15:06.980be said for okay like i'm waiting now because because even like economically you know it may
01:15:12.500be that like all right like i'm not going to make this economic choice today because i want to make
01:15:18.340this choice later on uh tomorrow and i think and and i'll have more if i'm willing to wait um and
01:15:25.720And so I think it could be possible that, you know, a young couple where, you know, let's say the husband, you know, they want to be in ministry.
01:15:33.520The wife is having to work at that point.
01:15:36.180And they're like, man, you know what?0.91
01:15:37.120Our first three, four years of marriage, we're going to wait.
01:15:42.720And we're not going to be, you know, we're not going to use anything that would even risk the opportunity of being aborted by nature in terms of birth control.
01:15:50.300But our intention is to, you know, God can do anything and we trust him, you know.
01:15:54.640But our intention, as far as man making his plans, our plan is to wait for the next four years while, you know, our husband, you know, tries, my husband tries to finish seminary.
01:16:05.920And, you know, like, I think that that, like, I would see that as a reason, you know, and I think a couple like that could, you know, they could get married, for instance, they could get married at 21, 22, start having kids at 25.
01:16:17.900and maybe not dugger level 22 kids but they could have 10 kids you know if the lord wills like it's
01:16:25.080within the you know what i mean so i i think that yeah and i would know i would look at that and say
01:16:29.060i don't know if i really have yeah yeah i think for me just being a being a pastor of a church
01:16:36.720i i try to teach the basic biblical principles and i'll give my best hunch on how that plays
01:16:46.320out in the nitty gritty of life. But I do try to avoid controlling people in the nitty gritty of
01:16:52.820life where it's not crystal clear in the scripture. I don't think the scripture is crystal clear that
01:16:58.760everyone needs to have 22 kids or their son. I agree. I agree. I think that the wisdom of
01:17:06.320Proverbs and planning and what that looks like, and even loving one's neighbor, health of the
01:17:13.900kind of deal. I think there are certain mitigating scenarios that maybe common sense would speak
01:17:21.580into that I think that we should allow for. But as a general rule, I would encourage people to
01:17:26.160have lots of kids. The other thing I want to say, and maybe as a more final note, is I know some of
01:17:32.080your viewing audience might be older, might be like, hey, I've already had my one kid. I've
01:17:37.320already had my two kids. And I can't go back and have a whole bunch of kids. But I can see I had
01:17:43.700a worldly lifestyle back then, or a worldly view. Maybe I even loved Jesus, but I was just,
01:17:50.860you know, I kind of was looking at this from a world's perspective, but now I feel convicted by
01:17:55.900it. Well, to you, I would say, go to Jesus, tell him you're sorry, and then the Great Commission
01:18:03.500still applies to you. Go and make disciples of all nations. You can still do that. And that's
01:18:07.940part of the beauty of the clarity that Jesus brought us when he became cosmic King and Lord
01:18:13.100after the resurrection and ascension and all authority was given to him in heaven on earth
01:18:19.000and he commissioned us to make disciples. It brought a clarity that, hey, this is an ongoing
01:18:24.860thing. It's not just when your kids are toddling around. This is like your whole life. You are a
01:18:29.780disciple maker. So go to Jesus, get your forgiveness if you were doing it for worldly reasons. I'm not
01:18:37.060saying right right and actually on that note i need to say another thing and that is we as christians
01:18:43.440don't need to go around judging everybody who has a small household some people can't have kids
01:18:48.880some people could only have one some could only have two um some didn't find jesus until later
01:18:55.000you know there's just so many scenarios um that's just not the kind of thing we need to go around
01:19:00.240judging people for yep i agree i agree it's just again it goes back to that perspicuity of scripture
01:19:06.740We believe the scripture speaks to all life and doctrine.
01:19:09.680Having children is certainly something the scripture speaks to.
01:19:12.720But the scripture doesn't speak to every single arena of life with the same measure of clarity.
01:19:19.840And what we're talking about is, I mean, you're not even just talking about children.
01:19:24.340The Bible speaks volumes to parenting and children, the blessing of children.
01:19:27.840But we're talking about a specific sub-point under that topic of children, how many.
01:19:32.180you know and and and um yeah it's just you know again i think like it's it's a it is you know the
01:19:42.160argument of like how many let the lord decide um i get that i really do get that and uh and i
01:19:48.700i think that that is a fine position to take and it may be the the more biblical position and it's
01:19:54.800certainly as you said earlier seems to be the witness of church history and my favorite portion
01:19:59.300of church history, the reformer. So not a bad stance to take. Um, but I do agree with you in
01:20:04.880terms of, of, um, how, how we engage in that conversation with others. Um, because even though
01:20:11.400I think that that may be the most defensible position to take and, and perhaps the most
01:20:15.820biblically faithful position to take, I think it's still different than salvation by grace alone
01:20:20.640through faith alone in Christ alone, right? Salvation by grace alone through, you know,
01:20:24.440through faith alone in Christ alone is the best position to take. It's the only position to take,0.91
01:20:29.300um but it's also really clear it's really clear it's the crux of the whole scripture you know so
01:20:36.320so when someone says well i you know i think we're saved by grace plus sacraments or we're
01:20:40.380saved by through faith plus works you know and in christ plus saints you know and to the glory of
01:20:45.000god plus the glory of the pope and his tradition and scripture like and we say like dude you met
01:20:50.020you missed it and and i would have no problem obviously i just described catholicism but i
01:20:54.580would have no problem talking to you know to well i think there are a lot of regenerate catholics
01:20:59.840because i think there are a lot of bad catholics um but to good catholics you know because
01:21:04.440if you're a good catholic then then i think you're in danger um because you're actually
01:21:08.600prescribing to catholic doctrine i think lots of people come to christ despite catholic doctrine
01:21:12.800but not because of it and so if you got a good catholic that's you know i would push back on
01:21:16.720that good catholic and say dude the bible's clear and i and i and i would i would be pretty aggressive
01:21:20.760Whereas I would not, you know, go to that couple in a church that has two kids and say, dude, clear as day.
01:21:47.360If I do and I'm married, I'm going to want to have a lot of kids. And if I don't feel that value in my heart, I should repent, turn to Jesus and ask him to make my heart feel about things the way he does.
01:23:24.080So anyways, here's our bonus question, just to whet your appetite, a little incentive here.
01:23:29.180How would you defend, we've already been dancing around it and addressing it to some extent, but how would you defend the withdrawal method, right?
01:23:36.960So absence of condom could be that, or withdrawal.
01:23:39.620How would you defend that method and or the use of condoms in light of God killing Onan in Genesis chapter 38, verse 6 through 11?