The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - Christians, Birth Control, and the Blessing of Children

00:00:00.420 Applying God's Word to every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied.

00:00:11.640 All right, welcome to another episode of Theology Applied with Right Response Ministries.

00:00:17.240 I'm your host, Pastor Joel Webin. Today I am honored and privileged to have as a guest

00:00:21.740 Pastor Michael Roundtree with Wellspring Church in DFW, Bedford, right Michael?

00:00:28.520 is that the yeah pretty much north richmond hills i mean it's just north of fort worth basically

00:00:33.840 great so michael is a pastor at wellspring i used to be a member at wellspring church back

00:00:40.060 when i was in college michael was actually my mentor uh do you what what year was that was that

00:00:45.020 2007 man that was probably that was a long time are you gonna tell the story about the uh ex

00:00:51.560 excommunication? I was not excommunicated. I was not excommunicated. But yeah, so anyway,

00:00:59.140 so me and Michael- You're like for clarity. Yeah, we go way back, which is great. And we've been

00:01:05.280 friends for a long time. He's also a co-host on Remnant Radio. And so some of you might recognize

00:01:11.420 him from that ministry. And so today, the topic that we're going to be discussing is Christians

00:01:19.120 and birth control. And before we hop into the topic, I want to just give Michael a chance to

00:01:25.480 talk about his ministry and introduce himself a little bit more.

00:01:29.680 Sure. I've been the pastor of Wellspring Church for, I guess, since 2012. I've been actually

00:01:36.300 a pastor at the church since 2005. And so I've been here a long time at Wellspring. And we also,

00:01:46.180 you can see this background around me. He mentioned Remnant Radio. It's a theology

00:01:49.020 broadcast. YouTube's our biggest platform. We have pastors, theologians from all over the world

00:01:55.840 and try to help people bust out of their theological echo chambers and hear from

00:02:01.200 somebody different. We have Anglicans, Baptists, Methodists, non-denominational, Charismatics,

00:02:06.880 everything. So anyway, so that's what we do. So there's the church, there's the podcast.

00:02:13.380 I'm working on a book right now.

00:02:15.260 I'm about two thirds of the way through on the book of Revelation.

00:02:19.220 And I'm going to try to demystify it a little bit and walk through chapter by chapter, but do it in a way that's inspirational and devotional.

00:02:26.540 So anyway, you can look for that coming down the road.

00:02:30.740 But anyway, so those are some things.

00:02:34.920 Cool.

00:02:35.380 Thanks, man.

00:02:35.960 Well, I'm glad that you're here.

00:02:37.280 Glad you're on the show. 0.94

00:02:38.420 And again, our topic is going to be Christians and birth control.

00:02:41.180 There's a lot of different views on this subject, and it certainly tends to be controversial, at least for some.

00:02:47.580 But I think it's something worthwhile, something worth talking about, and I believe the Scripture addresses it.

00:02:52.700 Both Michael and I, we don't only tip our hat to the inerrancy of Scripture, but we also believe in the sufficiency of Scripture.

00:02:59.920 When it comes to the perspicuity of Scripture or the clarity, perspicuity is just a very unclear word that means clarity.

00:03:06.560 And so a bit of irony there, but the perspicuity of scripture, we believe the scripture is clear.

00:03:11.680 That doesn't mean the scripture is equally clear on all subjects, on all topics, but we do believe that the scripture is clear.

00:03:17.900 And we do believe that it speaks to all of life and doctrine and that the scripture is not just authoritative, inerrant, but that it's also sufficient, meaning that it can be applied, that it has something to say for all of life.

00:03:31.220 So the kind of an illustration that's helpful is just, you know, a sword, you know, the scriptures likened to a double edged sword or sharper than any double edged sword.

00:03:38.940 And so we don't want to just tip our hats to the authority of scripture and say, there's a sword.

00:03:42.640 It's a great sword.

00:03:43.820 It's a double edged sword.

00:03:45.080 It's a sharp sword.

00:03:46.100 And you can see it on the mantle clearly displayed in the glass case.

00:03:49.740 Well, we want to go a step further and say, and we're going to wield the sword like founders, Tom Askel and Jared Longshore, those guys, you know, wield the sword.

00:03:57.620 We're going to pick it up and we're going to actually use it.

00:03:59.860 We don't just acknowledge that is a sword, but we want to be useful with the sword.

00:04:03.440 We believe it's not just sharp, but it's also sufficient.

00:04:06.920 So all that being said, we believe the Bible speaks to this issue.

00:04:09.880 That doesn't mean that the Bible speaks to this issue as clearly as it might speak to salvation or other issues.

00:04:16.600 However, we think the Bible has something to say.

00:04:19.020 And so I just kind of want to pick Michael's brain, and we're just going to dialogue and talk back and forth.

00:04:22.920 And I'm not even convinced that we'll agree on every finite detail and nuance.

00:04:27.300 In fact, I'm pretty certain we probably won't.

00:04:29.860 But I think in general, we both have the same idea because we both have the same Bible and the same Lord.

00:04:35.080 And we love him and we love each other.

00:04:37.220 So that being said, let's go ahead and just jump right in.

00:04:39.500 The first question that I have is, what is the cultural mandate found in Genesis 1, verse 28?

00:04:46.880 And is it equally as binding on New Testament Christians today, now that the world contains nearly 8 billion people, as it was on Adam and Eve in the very beginning?

00:04:56.960 So the cultural mandate, be fruitful and multiply. 0.87

00:04:59.480 We're talking about birth control. Well, the idea of being fruitful, multiplying, I think a lot of Christians would say, haven't we done that, Michael, Joel?

00:05:07.960 I feel like, you know, like there's a lot of things we've messed up as human beings, but can't we check that one off the list?

00:05:12.920 You know, I think we nailed it. So is the cultural mandate as relevant today as it was in the garden?

00:05:18.440 Yeah. Well, is it helpful to let all the pagans have the kids and we Christians, we can just try to convert the pagans?

00:05:25.600 Is that? So, yeah, let me just read the cultural mandate. Genesis 128, God blessed them. God said

00:05:34.340 to them, be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it. So it wasn't just about

00:05:41.020 filling the earth with sufficient population, but also subduing it, have dominion over the

00:05:48.600 fish of the sea and the birds of the air, the heavens and the living creatures and all that

00:05:51.840 moves. And so the point in man having dominion was to make the earth look like God rules over

00:06:00.700 it. And so I think one question I would ask is, yes, we have lots of people, but has this

00:06:07.080 mass multiplication of people caused the earth to look like God rules over it? I would say no.

00:06:14.200 Okay. So, and I think most of us would. So just as God rules over the heavens and the earth,

00:06:19.680 man was to rule over the earth. And then to kind of zoom forward New Testament, I do think there is

00:06:25.680 a connection between the Great Commission, therefore go and make this all authority on

00:06:31.840 heaven and earth. So you see the kingdom dimension, which carries with it a subduing and a filling and

00:06:38.200 subduing the earth. There's certainly connection. We see kingdom in seed form and the cultural 0.95

00:06:43.700 mandate in Genesis 1. We see it more fully in Jesus resurrected as cosmic Lord and King.

00:06:51.200 And then he commissions us. And what I would say is the Great Commission is not a replacement

00:06:59.240 of the cultural mandate. The Great Commission is in some ways like a renewal of, because Adam and

00:07:07.220 Eve were always called, and their offspring always called, Genesis 3, the seed of the

00:07:14.060 woman was always called, Israel was always called to be a light to the nations. Israel

00:07:19.700 wasn't chosen to just have a bunch of babies in their own little cloister over here in

00:07:23.880 Palestine. Israel was chosen to be a light to the nations. So in a sense, they were called

00:07:30.440 to make disciples. Now, did Jesus bring clarity as to what it looks like to make disciples?

00:07:36.780 Yes, he did.

00:07:39.040 Is there a new era of history that was launched in Jesus?

00:07:44.500 Yes, there was.

00:07:45.240 The law came through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

00:07:49.200 There is greater light.

00:07:50.660 There is greater clarity.

00:07:51.700 There is greater revelation, et cetera, in Jesus.

00:07:55.700 But I would look at the Great Commission as almost like a renewal of the cultural mandate,

00:08:03.660 not a replacement of i'm not saying they're exactly the same thing but i like that yeah

00:08:11.400 yeah so the great commission doesn't replace the cultural mandate it's a renewal and i would i

00:08:16.700 would agree with that i would for me i would probably just maybe even use the language of

00:08:20.240 like it's it's a clarification i like what you said like just clear you know i think that both

00:08:25.260 of us would agree in terms of old testament saints in regards to soteriology how they were saved we

00:08:30.280 would say that all people in all times and all places before the cross after the cross have only

00:08:34.760 been saved in one way and that's through by grace through faith in in the messiah in christ and what

00:08:40.580 we have on this side of the cross is we have the privilege and it is a great privilege to be able

00:08:45.980 to look back with greater clarity at the person and work of jesus whereas old testament saints

00:08:51.400 before the cross were trusting in jesus but for adam and eve well you know all they really knew

00:08:57.020 of jesus is that he was the serpent crusher you know and and abraham he knew that he was the

00:09:02.380 promised seed you know and and so there's you know david knew that he was that he was a king

00:09:06.620 and the government would be upon his shoulders and that he would sit one day as on his throne

00:09:10.880 and rule the nations and righteousness and you know and so we have this further kind of progressive

00:09:15.300 clarifying revelation of the savior in terms of of salvation but that doesn't mean that there's

00:09:21.720 a new way now that people are saved it means they're all saved the same way and we're just

00:09:24.880 learning more about it and uh and i think in the same way taking dominion over the earth i think

00:09:29.820 there's there's a clarifying in the great commission and the great commission is a

00:09:33.580 clarifying in many ways a clarification of the cultural mandate i don't think it's meant to

00:09:37.660 replace it i i like the language that it's meant to renew it refresh it um but i think in some

00:09:43.520 ways it's kind of like with jesus in the sermon of the mount you've had you know you've heard it

00:09:47.280 has um you you have heard it has been said or it has been written um but i tell you you know and

00:09:53.180 Jesus isn't coming and replacing the law, but he's, he's clarifying.

00:09:57.000 But I tell you, if you even lessen your heart, you know, or I tell you, you know,

00:10:00.420 and, and so Jesus is, he's, he's further clarifying.

00:10:03.720 He's, he's further describing and detailing the tenets of the law and the Sermon on the Mount.

00:10:08.780 And I think Jesus likewise, kind of the same concept, same principle.

00:10:12.300 I think that he's giving us more clarity, more vision on the great or the cultural mandate.

00:10:17.940 I think in the garden with Adam and Eve, this mandate before sin had ever even entered the world, I think there were some assumptions baked into the equation.

00:10:27.400 This idea that Adam and Eve were going to produce godly offspring, you know.

00:10:32.600 But after the fall, after sin enters the world and then after Christ, it's like, hey, keep being fruitful and multiplying.

00:10:39.300 But let's bring in the discipleship piece with more clarity because it can't be assumed any longer.

00:10:45.160 I think there's some of that there.

00:10:46.160 Yeah, absolutely.

00:10:47.940 Well, you know, I'm just kind of thinking about right now, I'm thinking about Isaiah 56.

00:10:53.700 It's in a section that's speaking of the eschatological future of the people of God,

00:10:57.980 and it says to the eunuchs who keep my Sabbath, actually, I want to back up a little bit, 0.90

00:11:03.080 Isaiah 56.3, let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the Lord say, 0.78

00:11:08.700 the Lord will surely separate me from his people. Let not the eunuch say, behold, I am a dry tree.

00:11:15.400 So it's speaking about a time when foreigners are going to come into the kingdom of God. 0.98

00:11:19.980 This is the same passage that soon we'll be talking about.

00:11:22.280 My house will be a house of prayer for all nations.

00:11:24.720 So it's talking about the coming of Christ.

00:11:27.800 I'm actually just kind of thinking out loud here.

00:11:29.600 I don't have a drawn conclusion, so maybe you can help me out, Joel.

00:11:33.780 But I'm specifically interested in this eunuchs piece,

00:11:36.820 because Jesus in Matthew 19 will pick up on this,

00:11:40.460 and when he talks about there are people who are made eunuchs,

00:11:44.260 They're people who choose to be eunuchs for the people, you know, for the kingdom of God.

00:11:48.380 And it's a strange idea.

00:11:50.180 Yeah, right.

00:11:51.400 So it's a strange idea in the time of Jesus, because like being a eunuch was like pretty much not acceptable.

00:11:58.960 Right.

00:11:59.420 Like it was it was always bad.

00:12:01.780 In fact, Pharisees would like they would marry somebody in order to fulfill the cultural mandate and have children.

00:12:09.960 and then they would divorce their spouse so that they could be like,

00:12:13.560 okay, now I'm free and clear, I did my duty, right?

00:12:16.300 It was unacceptable to just not have kids, and yet Jesus didn't have kids.

00:12:22.580 And so I'm just, again, I'm kind of reflecting on this out loud

00:12:25.360 and just kind of processing.

00:12:26.680 I don't know if that sparks any thoughts for you, Joel,

00:12:28.620 but I think it speaks to something that was a shift in the commission to make disciples.

00:12:37.860 It's not as though prior to the Great Commission, they weren't supposed to make disciples of

00:12:44.080 all nations to shine their light to all nations.

00:12:46.780 They were.

00:12:48.200 But I think what I would say is the one dimension of clarity that it brought was that there

00:12:55.940 was a place for singleness in the kingdom of God, like lifelong celibacy in the kingdom

00:13:03.340 of God.

00:13:03.860 Because I can't think of an Old Testament text that speaks of celibacy in a positive light.

00:13:09.440 I mean, you have Daniel who's forced into that position, but the command was, you do

00:13:16.000 this.

00:13:17.220 And so if anything, it seems like the Great Commission does open it up that you can be

00:13:21.860 like Jesus and Paul, that you can choose to be that eunuch and to not bear children and

00:13:27.820 to do it for the kingdom of God.

00:13:29.640 But those are outside of marriage contexts, okay?

00:13:32.980 Exactly.

00:13:33.420 we don't have that's what i would say we don't have any example in the scripture

00:13:38.600 old or certainly not either testament that says it's okay to be married and capable of having

00:13:46.880 children and opt not to uh supposedly so that you can make lots of disciples

00:13:52.320 so uh what do you think of all that i'm with you i completely agree like there is a place for

00:13:57.860 lifelong singleness in scripture by choice, which I think that's what we're meant to assume in the

00:14:06.440 case of Paul and certainly in the case of Christ. But then sometimes it's not by choice. And I think

00:14:10.980 that singleness can be a form of suffering for some and perhaps even for many, especially if

00:14:18.200 it's not something that's chosen. I don't know. I don't think that that means that the person

00:14:22.920 actually has the gift of celibacy but i think that god's grace is sufficient and uh and that

00:14:27.920 they're capable of obeying uh all of christ's commands in the context of their singleness even

00:14:33.120 if it's not something they voluntarily chose but in whether it's chosen whether it's not

00:14:36.760 um i think that the new testament and christ himself and and especially paul first corinthians

00:14:42.700 chapter seven like he gives um he gives a certain level of esteem to those who are single uh there's

00:14:48.760 a commendation that's given. But I think the cultural mandate, we have to keep in mind,

00:14:54.700 it's not given to Adam alone. It's not given to Adam as a single man. It's not given to Eve as a

00:15:00.360 single woman. The cultural mandate is given to a married couple. So I agree wholeheartedly with

00:15:05.000 what you said, that it's not so much that God is giving the cultural mandate to each and every

00:15:10.220 individual person, many who might be single, but I think he is giving them to each and every

00:15:16.880 married couple um that those who are married yeah it doesn't seem like new testament or old

00:15:22.200 testament there's any um any alternative option of yeah opting out of out of procreation opting

00:15:29.420 out of childbearing there's one thing i wanted to comment on earlier when you were saying you know

00:15:33.160 you know fill the earth be fruitful multiply fill the earth and subdue it exercise dominion i just

00:15:38.620 wanted to say in terms of the earth as as creation physical creation the birds you know of the air

00:15:44.260 the fish of the sea, the cosmos. In that sense, it's important that we understand dominion,

00:15:49.940 I think, in the same way that, you know, that Adam was given dominion over his wife. Adam named all

00:15:53.780 the animals. He named Eve. He named his own wife. Husbands have a measure of, biblically, a measure

00:15:59.260 of dominion over their wife. We don't like that word because it sounds dominating. And that has

00:16:06.220 a negative kind of, I think we just impute into that an abusive connotation. But that's what

00:16:11.660 lordship is you know like sarah the women of old you know she called abraham her lord lowercase l

00:16:18.060 but but lord and so there's this headship this authority this lordship and dominion and and it's

00:16:23.460 meant to be in regards to a husband um relating with his wife it's just meant to be a dominion

00:16:28.520 that's modeled after christ uh it's a it's a sacrificial self-sacrificing loving dominion

00:16:34.240 it's not ripped of authority but it's also not cold and absence uh with an absence of love and

00:16:39.960 And so, too, I think the idea.

00:16:42.140 So when we say that Christians are called, we're called to be not just Christians, but people, the cultural mandate is given to all people to be fruitful, multiply, to fill the earth and subdue it.

00:16:50.580 We're not saying because people say, man, well, that's that's why we have a problem overpopulation.

00:16:55.980 Things that both of us would would strongly push back on.

00:16:59.380 But my point is that this dominion, it's it's the same dominion that a loving husband exercises with his wife, that Christ exercises with the church.

00:17:07.320 It's a dominion that cultivates the earth.

00:17:09.280 It doesn't consume the earth for self-interested, you know, like it takes the raw wilderness of the earth, cultivates it, and taps it for its greatest potential.

00:17:25.520 Absolutely.

00:17:26.960 Go ahead.

00:17:28.740 Yeah.

00:17:29.060 Well, I was going to say, so like humans are the only creatures that can turn grain into bread or grapes into wine.

00:17:39.280 because we're able to take the natural elements of the earth,

00:17:46.380 you called them the raw materials,

00:17:48.000 and turn them into something beautiful and good,

00:17:50.200 which is actually the picture we have of God in creation.

00:17:53.500 And so God doesn't create Adam ex nihilo.

00:17:57.500 He creates him out of dust, and he creates Eve out of a rib.

00:18:02.240 And the entire earth was not the Garden of Eden.

00:18:05.120 Just the Garden of Eden was the Garden of Eden.

00:18:06.780 That's right.

00:18:07.100 and they were to make the whole thing look like that. They were to make the whole thing look

00:18:11.740 cultivated. So Genesis 2 gives us a picture of what subduing the earth looks like. Part of it

00:18:18.060 is the cultivating of the garden, and so they're to take the raw materials of the earth and turn them

00:18:23.740 into wonderful things. Now, man, because our image was broken in the fall, what we end up

00:18:31.820 doing is just like they did in the Tower of Babel, they used their great technology, which at the

00:18:36.620 time was bricks, that incredible technology, bricks. But for them, it was. And they built a 0.76

00:18:43.600 tower in defiance of God. And ever since the fall, we've been using our technology. We've

00:18:48.940 been using our developments to harm people, to figure out how we can kill more of them 0.99

00:18:55.060 rather than building them up. But if more Christians are having kids and raising their 1.00

00:19:01.000 kids to love and fear the Lord, and making disciples of all nations, then gradually that 0.93

00:19:06.740 leaven spreads across the whole lump. Gradually, the kingdom of God fills the earth and becomes

00:19:15.240 a better place. Yep. It starts small, grows slowly, and becomes significant. One passage.

00:19:21.560 Whoa. Whoa. How do you remember that? Hey, I preached that. Yeah. I was like,

00:19:27.100 that sounds familiar. That was like five or six years ago. I still remember it. It was good.

00:19:30.640 pretty solid bro yeah the mustard seed a little bit of leaven there you go yeah so we yeah i like

00:19:36.200 what you're saying that you know that the garden of eden um the whole world was now and it's

00:19:41.700 difficult i think for us to wrap our minds around it because we know that thorns thistles entered

00:19:45.900 into the world as as a result of the curse because of sin so we know that work was not the curse

00:19:51.200 right we know that the fact that the ground would work against man was the curse the fact that work

00:19:55.880 would be vexing, that it would be frustrating, that it would be hard. Well, I would go for it

00:20:01.700 and say that it would be really hard. I think hard work was always God's intent. So I think

00:20:07.820 man was going to work, and I think he was going to work hard. There weren't going to be thorns and

00:20:11.380 thistles. The ground wasn't going to be working against him, but I think he'd probably crawl in

00:20:14.740 bed a little tired at the end of the day if sin had still never entered the world. And his primary

00:20:21.020 vocation that god gave to him his kind of marching commands were um to work and keep and and i think

00:20:26.740 work is to cultivate it's to maintain but i think there's also in that kind of baked into the

00:20:30.940 equation um an implication and a commandment to expand to advance uh that the garden was going to

00:20:36.960 grow uh that its borders were going to widen and expand and so that he's going to work and then to

00:20:41.700 keep um he's going to defend it's like advance and defend advance yeah and defend and um and and

00:20:49.940 And that's what we were going to do.

00:20:51.480 And we were going to, basically, Adam was going to, you could say that with the cultural mandate,

00:20:56.440 like he was going to be fruitful, multiply, so he was going to create people.

00:20:59.300 And that's a big part of the equation.

00:21:01.920 And I would argue the biggest is image bearers of the living God, reflecting, radiating the glory of God in his creation.

00:21:07.640 But they also were going to expand their home, the garden.

00:21:13.320 And I like to think that this theophany, I would consider it to be Christ, actually,

00:21:17.740 who walked with adam and eve in the cool of the day uh christ before he had obviously been

00:21:22.280 incarnate and taken on flesh but christ who is eternal and just like we would say the holy

00:21:26.780 spirit or if god the father would say he's you know a most pure spirit without body parts and

00:21:30.980 passions um you know we would say that christ um the second member of the trinity the son of god

00:21:36.320 was a most pure spirit without body parts and passions until in real time in human history he

00:21:40.840 took on uh flesh and so before that you know whether it's the burning bush or whether it's

00:21:45.300 the angel of the Lord and Joshua, or perhaps, you know, the angels and one of them, you know,

00:21:50.860 who approach Abraham or Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego thrown into the flame. And there's a

00:21:55.540 fourth man whose face is shining like the sun. I would say that all those are theophanies and

00:22:00.320 it's actually Jesus. And so Jesus is, I believe, walking in spirit. And that's difficult for us

00:22:07.320 to understand but he's walking a theophany of christ a visible a visible um i don't know

00:22:15.620 appearance of christ but without human flesh walking with adam and eve in the garden and and

00:22:21.800 it's this idea of they're going to create more and more image bearers more and more worshipers of of

00:22:27.260 the triune god and they're going to expand the garden and and i like to think that that jesus

00:22:32.820 is just going to keep on every evening in the cool of the day walking with all of them and jesus

00:22:37.460 is going to be walking over the face of the earth as his image bearers are walking over the face of

00:22:42.020 the earth and and not just in wilderness or deserts but they were going to you know there

00:22:45.960 might have been some deserts even before sin entered the world but but the garden was going

00:22:50.200 to expand they were going to figure out irrigation and cultivation and all and it was just going to

00:22:54.080 be a worldwide garden filled with people, filled with vegetation and beauty and ingenuity and all

00:23:03.200 these things. And best of all, Jesus was going to fill the garden and be with them.

00:23:09.000 Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, in ancient Near Eastern thought, and specifically for our purposes,

00:23:16.460 Israelite thought, a garden was a place, in ancient Near Eastern thought, it was the place

00:23:22.040 where the gods met. But for Israel, it was the place where God was. It was essentially their

00:23:31.140 temple. And in a sense, the whole earth was, when you read the creation story, it's portrayed as

00:23:38.860 sort of like God's temple. The words that you used to tend and to keep, the Levite priests

00:23:47.080 were to tend and to keep the tabernacle. And so it's the temple of God. And whereas every other

00:23:54.100 nation filled their temple with images, with idols, Israel was expressly forbidden by that.

00:24:01.340 Why? Because we are His image. We are in a sense His idol. We don't like that word, but His image

00:24:08.600 on the earth. And so God created us in that way as true living, breathing idols, so to speak,

00:24:18.180 images of Him, unlike the nations that had these phony wooden things that they propped up in their

00:24:25.720 temple. And so my point is that as we propagate, as we multiply, we're filling the earth with more 0.81

00:24:34.040 of these image bearers to continue to tend and to keep the entire earth to make it look like him

00:24:40.660 so uh so yeah i think um you know joel when you first asked me about like this topic and you're

00:24:49.480 like what do you think about birth control and uh i think my response was i think christians should

00:24:55.600 have lots of kids and this is just i i just want to touch on like why this is um why this is so

00:25:02.700 important, because I feel like Christians are too affected by the culture. And the culture is like,

00:25:07.500 have one kid, maybe have two if you can afford it. Three, that's just a handful. Four, you're just

00:25:14.980 crazy. And I just think, did you come to that conclusion because you read the Bible? Or did 1.00

00:25:22.620 you come to that conclusion because that's the way it is in culture? I saw, this was a couple

00:25:27.440 years ago, I saw the cover of a magazine. It's actually Newsweek. And it said the title was

00:25:34.820 having it all, but not having kids. And it was the trend of young people, you know, wait till

00:25:40.620 you're 35 to get married, maybe 37, 39, the last possible year, like before you might be able to

00:25:46.960 have kids. Now, it's one thing if it just happens that way for you. Okay. That's one thing. It's

00:25:52.640 another thing if you're just like living the single life living it up doing your thing and

00:25:58.420 then you finally get married at the last minute and then you're like well okay and then you're

00:26:02.740 gonna have kids at like 42 one kid and i'm just like this isn't the way god designed it it's

00:26:08.660 it's really not god designed this um actually i think it's better to get married younger if you

00:26:15.540 can we don't all have that choice amen and and i i actually i feel saddened for females christian

00:26:22.580 females because a lot of dudes don't know how to man up. They don't know how to ask a woman on a

00:26:28.800 date. Dude, total side note. Okay, side note, but it's kind of related. My 13-year-old daughter, 1.00

00:26:34.960 I overheard her on the phone today, like just this single line. She said,

00:26:41.740 if a guy's not even willing to ask me out on a date, he's not worth going out with,

00:26:46.540 or he's not he's not worth having as a boyfriend i was like yay but um you know i think dudes

00:26:53.520 should just go ask girls out like my dad taught me that he's like dude pursue the girl man and

00:26:58.900 anyway i i just i think we've gotten backwards dudes part of your responsibility pursue the

00:27:07.120 woman like woo her and um and then get married younger blesses a man who has children in his

00:27:15.480 youth. Psalm 127. Youth is a key phrase. Rejoice in the wife of your youth.

00:27:22.840 Yeah, and Psalm 127 is a key one. We should focus on it. Like, if the Bible speaks this way of

00:27:29.500 children, then why don't we think this way? I get it. Charles Spurgeon said, before children are a 0.98

00:27:38.940 quiverful. They're often a handful. They are, but let me read Psalm 127. It says,

00:27:47.660 Unless the Lord builds the house, those who build it labor in vain. Unless the Lord watches over

00:27:51.860 the city, the watchmen stand awake in vain. It is in vain that you rise up early and go late to

00:27:57.840 rest, eating the bread of anxious toil, for he gives to his beloved sleep. Behold, children are

00:28:04.420 a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb, a reward. Like arrows in the hand of a warrior are

00:28:08.980 the children of one's youth. Blessed is the man who fills his quiver with them. He shall not be

00:28:13.360 put to shame when he speaks with his enemies in the gate. Now, this is a psalm of ascent,

00:28:19.060 and so it's Psalm 120 through, I want to say it's 135. And so, wow, rain's really coming down.

00:28:30.060 Anyway, so it's a handful of Psalms, and this specific one is by Solomon.

00:28:36.020 And it's interesting because it sounds like it's two different Psalms into one.

00:28:40.380 One's about the Lord building the house and protecting the city,

00:28:43.660 and then the other is like, have a bunch of kids.

00:28:45.820 But they're actually connected.

00:28:47.520 Because how does the Lord build your house, Joel?

00:28:50.180 By you having lots of kids.

00:28:52.720 And in fact, how does the Lord protect the city through the kids that you have?

00:28:58.840 And so the two themes of house and city,

00:29:02.040 the Lord is the one who builds the house,

00:29:03.800 the Lord is the one who protects the city,

00:29:05.500 arise again in the last few verses when it says that,

00:29:11.840 okay, you won't be put to shame by your enemies at the city gate.

00:29:18.460 So there's the city part.

00:29:20.940 And then the fruit of the womb, a reward, a heritage from the Lord.

00:29:25.760 You see both of these.

00:29:27.720 It's the house and the house and the city being built up, being protected.

00:29:32.840 And that part about arrows in the hands of a warrior, the idea there is that, you know, like if I'm standing here and I take an arrow and I shoot it, the arrow ends up over there.

00:29:45.780 That's the heritage.

00:29:47.400 That is the blessing that the next generation goes further than I could go.

00:29:53.560 And so these are, this is, and it's also, I think, fitting that Solomon wrote this,

00:29:59.480 because when you talk about building a house, David wanted to build a house for the Lord,

00:30:04.480 but the Lord said no. Solomon got to be the one who did it. And so it's actually a living

00:30:09.140 illustration of the next generation takes it further. Now Solomon got into his own messes

00:30:14.040 and all of that um but point uh point being that if overall point being if the lord considers this

00:30:23.220 a blessing why don't we yep i think that's a foreign question to ask yeah i completely agree

00:30:29.980 uh that's kind of my next question was you know it had to do with psalm 127 uh 335 so i'm glad

00:30:35.120 you brought it up and um just kind of with that you know i wrote this uh if children are a blessing

00:30:40.020 from the lord and a man is said to be especially blessed if his quiver is full if he has

00:30:44.220 implication being many children what reasons if any might be considered as legitimate for

00:30:50.340 intentionally mitigating the blessings of god and i think i think that's for me that's what it comes

00:30:55.080 down to is um i'm just not convinced that people in our culture today and i think it's seeped in

00:31:01.460 to the church as well i'm not convinced that people and sadly even some christians actually

00:31:07.400 see children as blessings because there's there's a lot of things that we do consider to be

00:31:13.200 blessings and i don't really see people clamoring to to put up buffers and boundaries and to like

00:31:21.200 don't want to don't want to be too blessed you've got blessings you're pouring in you know like you

00:31:27.120 know money is a blessing right that's the love of money that's the root of all evil but money is a

00:31:31.760 blessing and you don't see a whole lot of people gosh i just i really need to find some kind of

00:31:36.780 strategy to make less money i'm making too much money you know i got to slow down this this cash

00:31:40.860 flow that's you know i want to mitigate that that blessing you don't you don't really see people

00:31:44.280 having that kind of mindset when it comes to many other things that the bible um calls blessings

00:31:50.020 but we do often hear that kind of that those kind of conversations when it comes to children and i'm

00:31:56.500 not saying you know for me and what i'd like to get into this uh at the end but in terms of you

00:32:02.640 know the sin of onan um i you know i i i do believe that there can be um some measure of

00:32:10.080 ethical careful family planning um for the christian um but i but i think the whole purpose

00:32:17.040 in that is is is to be strategic and and so maybe you're pausing from but but it's to be strategic

00:32:24.340 so that you can have as many children as possible and and and provide for them and have not just a

00:32:29.160 bunch of crappy arrows for lack of a better term, but, but, you know,

00:32:33.900 it's equality matters too. We want to have good arrows, you know?

00:32:37.860 And so I think, you know, someone saying like, Hey, okay, you know,

00:32:41.160 we're going to wait a couple of years, you know,

00:32:44.420 before we have our next kid depending on the reasons, you know, like there may,

00:32:48.600 there may still be some idolatry and, you know,

00:32:50.600 comfort idolatry and selfishness and things like that,

00:32:52.740 but there could be some actually good reasons for, you know, but,

00:32:57.800 But, but, but that's, you know, because we want to have quality children.

00:33:02.660 We want to have as many children as possible.

00:33:04.320 We may need to pause now so that we can have three more later or whatever it might be.

00:33:08.320 But that's not the, that's just not the conversations that I hear from me.

00:33:11.880 I feel like what I often hear is like what you were saying earlier, let's have one, maybe

00:33:16.640 two, and that's all we're planning on having.

00:33:19.340 And I just, again, I just, I have a hard time believing that that individual actually sees

00:33:24.740 children as a blessing. Cause I can't think of really any other blessing where people would say,

00:33:29.580 okay, there's a blessing. God's God's willing to give it to me. I just, I just want one,

00:33:36.140 just one blessing. Just give me one. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I, the way I look at it is I,

00:33:43.760 I look at it like, okay, you've, you've got the cultural mandate. You have all of these scriptures

00:33:49.220 that treat children as a blessing.

00:33:53.140 Do we have the reality that kids are hard?

00:33:54.820 So I have four kids.

00:33:56.580 Kids are really hard.

00:33:57.700 They're crazy hard.

00:33:59.180 There's nothing in the world harder than being a parent.

00:34:02.840 It's also hard to carry your cross,

00:34:05.560 which happens to be the religion that we abide by, right?

00:34:08.920 Like this is what God has called us to. 0.97

00:34:13.160 And it's actually not that hard to be a crappy parent.

00:34:15.980 Sorry, I shouldn't have maybe used that word. 0.86

00:34:18.060 I used it.

00:34:19.220 Okay. It's not that hard, right? But if you want to be a good parent, that is hard. And so I look at it like, you know, as a general rule, we should want to have lots of kids because God values kids. Therefore, I should value kids.

00:34:39.100 If I'm close to God, I will feel about things the way God feels about things.

00:34:44.860 And if I feel differently about things than God does, that's because I'm not close to God, or at least not in that area.

00:34:52.240 That's an area of growth.

00:34:53.760 And so that's the first thing.

00:34:56.980 Because I think we have to start there before we get into the nitty-gritty of birth control, which is why you kind of have this series of questions starting very big.

00:35:05.060 I think that's important because we establish the value first

00:35:09.640 because we might disagree on some of the finer points

00:35:13.240 as you said at the very beginning

00:35:14.640 but the big thing and if there was anything else

00:35:17.460 that I wanted people to walk away from

00:35:18.900 is kids should be valued

00:35:21.920 highly, highly, highly valued

00:35:24.600 and that if you are married

00:35:26.520 you're called to have them

00:35:28.320 if you're capable of having them

00:35:30.360 and if you're not

00:35:32.200 I would invite you to receive prayer for that

00:35:34.640 And lots of people in the Bible received prayer for that and got a miracle.

00:35:40.060 Yeah, but anyway, but that's actually part of the calling of marriage and a high and holy calling and how we make this earth look more like the kingdom of heaven, more like God reigns.

00:35:53.620 So that's the big picture.

00:35:56.360 Now, to get more narrow and answer your specific question, might there be any reason I could see?

00:36:01.780 like you mentioned one the strategic reason which you said uh it sounded like what you were talking

00:36:07.220 about was if you have a another kid like every single nine months you know it uh right it might

00:36:13.860 not be the highest quality of parenting that those uh kids are getting i could see where you're going

00:36:18.100 with that um you know we might also say the health of the mother um right you know like if uh i mean

00:36:25.700 I mean, like I know of a woman, she is Roman Catholic, and she has five kids, and she's

00:36:35.960 continued to have more, and the doctors have warned her against it. 1.00

00:36:39.580 Of course, Roman Catholics believe birth control is always wrong, except they actually believe 0.96

00:36:45.000 in the natural planning. 1.00

00:36:46.540 They're okay with that.

00:36:48.720 We can talk more about that later if you want. 1.00

00:36:50.300 But anyway, so she's planning to have more kids, but her uterus is so thin that they said it's 1.00

00:36:58.980 like a transparency. Like it's so thin, it could just rupture and kill. And so she sees it as this 1.00

00:37:04.760 is my martyrdom to give children life. But it would be a martyrdom, in my opinion, in my opinion.

00:37:10.620 Although I actually really respect her as a woman of faith that she's like, I want to do this for

00:37:15.800 God. I get it. And she does love Jesus. I've, you know, and, and she has a proper understanding

00:37:21.300 of the gospel. Um, anyway, but with that said, I, I look at it, I'm like, okay, martyr, but what

00:37:29.280 about your other five kids that you presently have and your husband, you know, um, health of

00:37:35.400 the mother, I think is a reasonable reason. I agree. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. Um, uh,

00:37:45.420 I guess the other question is economic, because that's honestly the biggest one that people are thinking about, because once upon a time, having more kids meant more hands in the field.

00:38:02.720 Right, exactly.

00:38:03.280 Now it means more mouths to feed, and the way inflation is working right now, I don't know about your grocery bill, but mine's like $300 more than it was three years ago.

00:38:15.420 um and like with with just the way the world is like most families either do or feel like they

00:38:24.060 they need to have uh dual income like there's so many factors and um here's i think what i would

00:38:32.700 say um i i first of all i would just stick with the high level standard of kids are a blessing

00:38:41.180 And then I would go from there to God provides daily bread.

00:38:47.140 So I would aim to trust God to have lots of kids and trusting that he would provide.

00:38:55.460 And I believe he gives great jobs to people who have more kids because they need it,

00:39:00.300 people who are walking by faith.

00:39:03.580 Could there be a scenario where somebody chooses not to have more kids

00:39:08.840 because they just can't afford them?

00:39:11.180 Um, for the people of God, I think I have a little, a little trouble with that. I kind of

00:39:17.420 feel like, you know what, if it's the cultural mandate and God should supply, uh, the finances

00:39:22.380 for it, um, that would probably, I don't know. I, I, I would wrestle with it. It's not like

00:39:28.700 something I would excommunicate someone from my church over by any stretch, but it's something

00:39:33.760 that like, if I was just sharing my pastoral heart, my pastoral heart would be, you know what,

00:39:39.060 I would just really encourage you to trust the Lord with that.

00:39:42.040 Right. And they just may have to make some changes.

00:39:44.180 I think part of it is like a willingness to adjust your life, you know, to, to, you know, for the sake of your children, to lay your life down, to lay your preferences down.

00:39:54.360 And so there may, there just may be some changes.

00:39:56.380 It may be that you have to take a job that's not your favorite job, or it may be one that you have to move, you know?

00:40:05.260 Yeah.

00:40:05.380 Yeah. Or you may have to go somewhere else, live somewhere else. You know, there could be other

00:40:11.220 scenarios. Right. And for some people, though, truly it is. I mean, for some it's like this is

00:40:17.480 a real struggle. And for others, it's like, you know, I really like going on a thousand vacations

00:40:22.260 and I like, you know, my luxurious posh lifestyle and all of that, you know, which, you know,

00:40:28.280 and when you talk about mega wealthy people, like having nannies raise their kids and all of that, 0.66

00:40:33.080 I just, I think that's totally unbiblical. I think parents, you need to raise your kids

00:40:37.000 because you're entrusted to raise them up in the instruction of the Lord.

00:40:43.340 Yep. I agree. In terms of the overpopulation thing, if somebody, you know, I could just hear

00:40:48.000 somebody like pushing back and saying, again, you know, I feel like we already filled the earth.

00:40:51.220 We already subdued. I understand that like maybe we'd want more of the 8 billion people to be

00:40:55.480 Christians. One thing that I would say on that, I'd like to hear your thoughts, but one thing I

00:40:59.700 would say on that is just even, even for those who are unregenerate, even for those who are not

00:41:03.480 Christians, um, we still believe in the Imago Dei. We believe in common grace. Um, we believe that,

00:41:08.600 that even fallen people, unregenerate people, non-believers are still, um, image bearers of

00:41:13.920 the living God. And the way I see this kind of the doctrine of original sin is it's kind of like

00:41:19.260 in terms of the image of God and, and, and, and what way has it been marred and what way is it

00:41:23.820 still there's a vestige that still remains yeah um i i see it as like um original sin on in my heart

00:41:31.120 for the unbeliever the heart is is deceitful above all else it's it's corrupted the person

00:41:37.600 does not seek to honor god so i always say that like um you know they cannot do an unbeliever 0.99

00:41:42.720 cannot do anything in faith is what is what i would say they cannot do anything in faith and 0.96

00:41:46.640 i would define doing something in faith as doing it with a reliance on god's grace and a desire

00:41:50.740 for god's glory so an unbeliever could cure cancer um but they're going to do it a reliance

00:41:55.520 on their own strength or in their defense maybe you know i couldn't have done it without my team 0.99

00:41:59.560 you know it's always got to give credit to the team so they do it on a reliance on maybe not

00:42:03.440 their own strength but they do it on a reliance on the strength of humanity and they do it for

00:42:07.840 the glory of humanity um or one portion of humanity you know and and but what they're not

00:42:12.700 going to do is they're not going to do it with a reliance on god's grace and and a desire for

00:42:16.240 god's glory they're not going to do it in faith to the glory of god um they may do things to

00:42:20.660 the good of people to the love of of neighbor a non-christian can love their neighbor at some 0.66

00:42:26.500 level they'll never truly love their neighbor to the fullest extent loving their neighbor's soul

00:42:30.720 their neighbor's eternal good because that would would involve you know believing upon the lord

00:42:37.000 jesus christ and and and pleading and imploring their neighbor to to do the same and so they're

00:42:42.020 not going to do that but my point is there's a lot of good things building suspension bridges

00:42:45.800 curing cancer you know walking a sweet old lady across the street um going to war you know and

00:42:51.260 and i mean there's stories i mean heroic stories of people who are unregenerate there as far as we

00:42:56.740 know they were unbelievers and they laid down their lives you know they you know jumped in

00:43:02.640 front of a bullet to save a comrade in arms and i mean just incredible things and so my point is i

00:43:08.000 think on the outside at the risk of being overly simplistic on the outside image bearer because of

00:43:14.500 God's common grace and because of the Imago Dei, incredible, incredible things. They can be very

00:43:18.140 loving toward neighbor. On the inside, your heart is deceitful above all else. Out of it come wickedness

00:43:24.200 and malice. And so on the inside, there's not a desire to glorify God. So even when you do good

00:43:29.720 things, they're not done in faith, not with a reliance on God's grace or a desire for God's

00:43:33.420 glory. So my point is this. My point is, I think the world, here's the funny thing, and I think

00:43:38.420 Christians have bought into this to an extent. I think the world has the exact opposite message. 0.92

00:43:43.900 I think the world says on the inside, your heart is good.

00:43:47.960 You've got a good heart.

00:43:49.040 You've got a good heart, man.

00:43:50.100 You know, you've just got a good heart.

00:43:51.360 And on the inside, you know, you just need to find yourself.

00:43:53.700 Your biggest problem is the company that you keep.

00:43:55.680 You know, you just keep hanging out with those toxic people, you know.

00:43:57.900 And your biggest problem is you don't have enough self-esteem.

00:44:00.520 You don't have enough.

00:44:01.620 You don't believe in yourself enough.

00:44:03.480 And so on the inside, you're really, really great.

00:44:05.320 But on the outside, you can still make some mistakes.

00:44:08.900 And you'll especially make mistakes, you know, because it's really other people's fault.

00:44:12.720 and somebody else is to blame and you're a victim and all that kind of stuff.

00:44:15.680 So I think the world kind of says, like, on the outside, people are, you know, may be bad.

00:44:20.660 They may make mistakes.

00:44:21.600 They may do, you know, negative things.

00:44:23.620 And part of that being not caring for the environment and using up resources and all these things.

00:44:28.600 So on the outside, people aren't great.

00:44:30.380 But on the inside, they're awesome.

00:44:31.760 That's the pagan worldview, right?

00:44:33.300 On the outside, not great.

00:44:34.320 On the inside, heart of gold.

00:44:35.500 I think the Bible says the exact opposite.

00:44:37.000 It says, on the outside, image of God, capable of curing cancer and creating suspension bridges and finding new sources for fuel and finding new ways to plant more crops and feed not just 8 billion people, but potentially 80 billion people, you know.

00:44:51.300 And so on the outside, amazing.

00:44:53.720 On the inside, the heart is the problem. 0.98

00:44:56.020 And that's the Christian worldview of original sin in the Imago Dei. 0.83

00:45:00.100 And the pagan, anti-Christian worldview is on the outside, that's the problem. 0.69

00:45:03.600 On the inside, that's the heart of gold. 0.97

00:45:05.660 And my point is, as that relates to overpopulation, is I think the pagan would say, on the outside, people are leeches.

00:45:12.160 On the outside, people are, they're consumers. 0.99

00:45:15.420 They are leeches. 0.88

00:45:16.080 They consume. 0.74

00:45:17.080 But on the inside, they have really good hearts.

00:45:18.900 But we need fewer of them. 0.99

00:45:20.740 Because we can't, whereas the Christian would say, on the outside, you're made in the Imago Dei. 0.99

00:45:25.520 And people are not consumers, first and foremost.

00:45:29.320 Because you're made in the image of God, people are not consumers.

00:45:33.660 they are creators lowercase c creators not like you said earlier not x in the helo but we're able

00:45:38.580 to take the resources that god has provided us with and cultivate them um and and and create a

00:45:44.840 lowercase c create not out of nothing but with what god has provided and and do incredible things

00:45:49.540 and so as a christian i keep thinking you know over the last 48 years of of since roe versus

00:45:54.580 wade 60 million babies murdered in their mother's wombs um you know it's it's funny that christians

00:46:00.300 It's not funny. It's sad. But Christians who have bought into this overpopulation thing and this pagan anthropology view of man, I think that they would never say it out loud. 0.94

00:46:11.540 They would never verbalize it. But I think if we strapped them to a chair and gave them truth serum and asked them point blank and forced them to answer, I think they would have to say the fact that these children were aborted is murder. 0.91

00:46:22.520 It's wrong. It's heinous. But then that would all be followed with a quiet sigh of relief.

00:46:28.660 and i know that's a strong words but like in their heart of hearts but it is kind of nice

00:46:34.640 there's 60 million less people you know because look at the world and look at the toll and you

00:46:41.220 know look look at you know this and look at that and you know i mean covid that's that's that's

00:46:45.880 because of climate change i mean it's got to be you know and that wouldn't have happened if you

00:46:49.680 weren't driving your f-150 and you know and so and so my point is just to say that as a with the

00:46:54.560 Christian worldview and my anthropology, my view of man, I see people as creators. So I look at the

00:46:59.000 60 million children in the last half of a century that had been murdered. And I think which one of

00:47:03.780 them could have cured cancer, which one of them could have found some new source of energy,

00:47:08.780 which one of them could have found a new way of growing crops to feed, you know, a hundred times

00:47:13.060 more people, you know what I mean? Like people make way for, for people. So yeah, absolutely.

00:47:18.660 For sure. No, I think that's a great point. I mean, when we think about like overpopulate, like what are we afraid of might happen if we overpopulate the earth? If you overpopulate the earth, people might die.

00:47:33.600 hmm let's think about that for a minute what's better like even in your worst case scenario

00:47:39.280 is it is it better that somebody never lives than that they live and then die like all of us do

00:47:47.480 anyway i think i'd still be better to have people live and die right like like their worst case

00:47:53.420 scenario is actually not that bad um right i didn't plan to come on your episode and quote

00:47:59.380 gandhi um but he does have a really good quote he says there's enough for everybody's need but not

00:48:05.920 for everybody's greed and the reality is that there actually is enough resource in the world

00:48:12.300 for all people even if you multiply lots of people uh last i checked it was something like

00:48:17.260 three americans three own 50 percent of wealth in america you just think about that um you think

00:48:28.100 about think about this of the top 100 it's been a while since i looked this up it'll be give or

00:48:34.240 take given give or take but uh of the top 100 top gdps in the world if you include corporations

00:48:41.460 and not just nations on that list something like only 20 something 27 of them are actual nations

00:48:48.920 the rest are corporations these corporations have massive amounts of wealth they could totally do

00:48:55.000 lots of philanthropy um i'm not like anti-rich people or anything like that what i am saying is

00:49:02.340 if if people shared the morals of christ then the poor would be taken care of and the overpopulation

00:49:10.240 wouldn't be such an issue um or wouldn't even become an issue so i would say hey what if the

00:49:16.420 issue wasn't uh or what if the solution was not let's kill and prevent life what if the solution

00:49:23.980 was let's not be greedy punks right like let's actually give to the poor as a way of life now

00:49:33.360 can i convince um let's also i would add to that let's not be lazy punks and rely on the welfare

00:49:40.460 state and not work for sure both sides then we'd have a lot less poor people yes absolutely go

00:49:48.580 ahead that's that's the capitalist in me i had to had to say something there yeah you're starting

00:49:52.740 I'm a little socialist, so I just had to push back.

00:49:57.960 Hey, I told you, I'm not anti-rich people.

00:50:01.340 I've been listening to too much Thomas Sowell lately.

00:50:04.040 Yeah, I'm not anti-rich people.

00:50:05.820 I am pro-generosity because that's the value of God.

00:50:09.000 And when it's not legislated, it can actually be generosity.

00:50:13.760 I have a problem when the elites of the world who are mega wealthy billionaires and millionaires

00:50:20.640 are telling everybody else you guys need to stop having kids and here's a bunch of are you 486

00:50:28.180 pills and here's uh you know how you can more quickly get rid of your babies um because you

00:50:34.520 know what if if you're really that concerned with the problems caused by overpopulation why don't

00:50:39.940 you try generosity it's a wonderful thing so um so i would i would say that that when it's all said

00:50:47.600 and done, overpopulation is not the problem people make it out to be. I'm not saying it's not an

00:50:51.800 issue at all ever. What I'm saying is if people practice the values of the kingdom of heaven,

00:50:58.860 generosity, number one, and number two, I still think even if worst case scenario happened,

00:51:06.000 it's better to live and die than to never live at all. And so I think those are some good points.

00:51:10.600 And I would, from my perspective, I would say that I actually would say that it's not an issue

00:51:15.360 ever. And in part, from my point of view, I would say that, but I agree with a lot of the points

00:51:20.820 that you were making, but I would say, I don't think Christ will let it be an issue. So regardless

00:51:25.420 of your eschatology and whether you're pre-mill or, you know, all-mill or post-mill, I really

00:51:31.100 don't think if this is something that God's called us to, I have a hard time believing that God, who

00:51:35.260 is a father, a good father, giving commandments to his spiritual children, I have a hard time

00:51:40.220 believing that God would give commandments to his children and then maniacally be kind of like

00:51:44.940 waiting and and laughing under his breath you know knowing that if they obey the final result

00:51:51.140 will be their doom i just don't think god works that way yeah so i just not burdensome yeah

00:51:56.620 exactly so i think like whatever god has called us to do it's it it doesn't just what god has

00:52:02.440 commanded people to do when we obey it doesn't only lend towards his glory but it also lends

00:52:07.580 towards our good and so i have to believe that if it if it even were possible to overpopulate the

00:52:13.060 earth and i think logically i'd have to say well i guess it you know i guess like you know one

00:52:16.880 100 trillion people like it i mean physically the earth is a finite place but um but but i would say

00:52:22.940 even if it was possible i have to believe that christ would come back before then and or i should

00:52:28.400 say or people or dude elon musk we're called to the cosmos that's what i was about to say i was

00:52:35.560 gonna say elon musk gonna help us get to the moon and that's an image bear right there that is that

00:52:40.900 as an image bearer, working on every, I mean, he's got every piston of common grace firing.

00:52:45.760 Speaking of cultural mandate, though, Psalm 8, which was based upon the cultural mandate

00:52:55.240 and repeats it, which is also quoted in Hebrews 2 about Jesus. But anyway, one of the things

00:53:02.100 that it says is we will rule over the works of his hands, which in context, he has been

00:53:07.620 actually talking about the cosmos so that's fascinating uh i've wondered sometimes i've

00:53:13.800 wondered sometimes if in the new heavens and new earth if uh you know expanding out into the cosmos

00:53:20.900 might be part of that so and you know what i could totally see that perhaps before then

00:53:26.000 if overpopulation is really going to be that great of a problem right and it's like we get practice

00:53:31.080 you know on earth it's like you know you get practice like you start with a garden guard god

00:53:35.640 gets you off to the right start this is a garden you know and and here over here is a desert and

00:53:41.400 to make that look like this is going to be a lot of work you know and you're going to have to figure

00:53:44.900 that out and it's going to take you some time and i don't know maybe maybe it's just you know

00:53:48.900 10 000 years or so give or take of practice you know going from garden to desert and then and

00:53:54.980 then it's just you know a jump from earth to mars you know like now we're just like subduing that

00:54:00.520 that whole planet that happens to be a desert without water and with it,

00:54:05.020 you know, so, and I mean, it's fun, it's fun things to think about,

00:54:07.780 but I just, I just wanted to say that. And I, you know,

00:54:09.760 I guess we'll go quick on the end,

00:54:10.820 but I think it's really helpful that we spent time building a framework,

00:54:13.220 just saying first and foremost, children are blessings. They're also weapons,

00:54:16.740 you know, they're arrows. And that's one of the ways that we push back, you know,

00:54:20.500 our battles, not with flesh and blood, but,

00:54:23.540 but with principalities and one of the ways that we wage spiritual warfare is by,

00:54:28.520 by enlisting people in the lord's army and we do that through conversion we do that through

00:54:31.900 discipleship but um but but the great commission and and the cultural mandate as far as i can tell

00:54:37.440 the best disciples lord willing that i'll ever make are going to be my kids and um you know and

00:54:42.660 so i i'm discipling the nations but to disciple the nations you can't disciple the nations if

00:54:47.680 you can't disciple your house and uh and and those are some good disciples to make so you're doing

00:54:52.340 both it's not one at the expense of the other replacing the other and we're subduing and that's

00:54:56.620 and that's a loving dominion that harnesses the earth it doesn't destroy the earth or just consume

00:55:01.760 it lowercase c creators people because they're made in the image of god um we multiply we create

00:55:06.780 we don't just consume we're not just leeches and that's not just christians but even unbelievers

00:55:10.980 because that's a common grace imago day kind of thing so all that framework we want kids they're

00:55:15.600 blessing we need to be careful um when or even if we ever seek to mitigate the blessings of god what

00:55:22.720 other blessings do we do that with and um and then children are not just blessings but they're

00:55:27.880 also weapons they're warfare and i love like the end of psalm 127 verse 6 where it says you know

00:55:33.780 that he shall not be put to shame when he speaks with his enemies in the gate i see that i know

00:55:38.360 doug wilson says this that's that's this man his little sons that were once toddlers little

00:55:42.700 twinkling toes running around the halls of his home but now they're all grown up and they're

00:55:47.900 fighting with alongside their father he's not put to shame when he goes against his opponents in the

00:55:53.880 city gates or when he's protecting that he has his sons his grown sons now those arrows that he was

00:55:59.780 sharpening and molding for for 20 years and now they're standing with him so there's there's like

00:56:04.940 yeah yeah and i look at beauty i look at that too is uh because it says he'll speak with his

00:56:10.360 enemies uh when he speaks to his enemies at the city gate that's right i i look at that as a

00:56:14.740 surrender, you know, like, like the man and his sons, like caused the man, caused the enemy to

00:56:21.020 want to surrender. So he has to come underneath them at the gate. Yeah. I like that. That's

00:56:25.040 awesome. That's really good. Cool. So anyway, so that, that's kind of our framework. I just wanted

00:56:29.520 to kind of like summarize and recap it, but just giving, firing off now, you know, for, for the

00:56:34.420 sake of time, trying to give, um, some of the specifics. Um, so I'll just get right at it. Uh,

00:56:40.040 What forms of birth control should be considered unethical? 1.00

00:56:44.320 They're just off limits for Christians. 1.00

00:56:47.580 Yeah. 1.00

00:56:47.800 For all people, but Christians should obey. 1.00

00:56:50.580 Yeah, obviously abortion. 0.97

00:56:52.940 Some people do view that as birth control.

00:56:55.800 Are you 486, which is the morning after pill?

00:56:59.440 That's clearly wrong.

00:57:02.240 And because we believe, you know, a fetus is not just a fetus.

00:57:07.480 it's a baby and made in the image of God. And so there are some, there's a couple that I think

00:57:16.520 need to be talked about, and I don't think most Christians do. When you talk about the pill, 0.97

00:57:22.940 and you talk about the IUD, do a little Google research. I encourage you guys to do a little

00:57:29.300 bit of Google research on this, and what you'll discover is that most people will say, everyone

00:57:38.200 maybe, okay, so it's actually, it's debated amongst Christians, like Protestant Christians,

00:57:44.260 whether those are okay, but in my opinion, the ones who debate it, who debate against

00:57:52.380 it just really haven't fully done their research. Because the IUD and the pill both can result in

00:58:01.220 abortions. Now, it might not be intentional. It might not be intentional. But again, I said,

00:58:06.540 do your research, Google it, does this ever abort? Now, the thing is, it aborts differently.

00:58:13.040 It aborts like before it's ever implanted in the uterus.

00:58:20.040 And so it aborts differently.

00:58:23.360 And so sometimes it kind of passes under the radar for Christians, I think. 0.97

00:58:27.200 And I think Christians will innocently get an IUD or they'll innocently take the pill. 0.90

00:58:33.260 Now, the pill has other issues, too, and it affects hormones. 0.98

00:58:35.340 And so, for instance, I'm thinking of a Christian couple in my church that they were on the pill and they were telling me about it afterward.

00:58:46.380 They were saying, we got on the pill and then we got off.

00:58:49.400 And the reason we got off is because they didn't know anything about the abortion side of things.

00:58:53.860 But they were talking about the effect that it had upon her.

00:58:59.120 She's getting pounding headaches and all of these different, like she was just having these emotional swings.

00:59:04.680 It does affect you hormonally. That's something to consider. Um, now, um, anyway, so I, I would

00:59:11.880 just say, Google it, do your research. I wouldn't feel comfortable getting, uh, either of those.

00:59:16.780 It sounded like that's where you stand too, Joel. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, no, I, great job,

00:59:21.640 but that's, that's what I would have said. And, and I do, you know, to flesh it out like a little

00:59:26.040 bit more, like I, um, you know, cause I remember, you know, at my previous church in San Diego,

00:59:31.040 I remember with my elders, you know, I don't know, maybe five years ago.

00:59:35.880 I don't know.

00:59:36.580 But we were working through this issue, and we disagreed in terms of whether or not we should actually put it in our membership covenant for formal membership in the church in terms of specifically the pill.

00:59:52.120 But we came to the same conclusions fairly quickly because you're right.

00:59:55.880 All it takes is a little bit of research.

00:59:57.100 And there were people, I noticed just pastorally as I dealt with congregants, there were occasionally times where people, part of the reason they had no clue wasn't just because they were ignorant, but part of the reason they didn't Google it, they didn't search it, because they actually did ask.

01:00:11.300 They asked their doctor, and their doctor assured them that it was not abortive because, come to find out, a lot of the scientific community has changed the definition of when human life begins in the womb.

01:00:24.860 So they've changed it from what we would hold and what we would say that Christendom has held for a very long time in terms of fertilization.

01:00:31.820 It's been changed to implantation.

01:00:34.100 And so a doctor with a straight face will sit there and say, no, it's not abortive.

01:00:37.660 No way.

01:00:38.900 Yeah, that's actually – if you look –

01:00:40.500 You know what I mean?

01:00:40.940 Go ahead.

01:00:41.760 Yeah, if you –

01:00:42.320 I'm just saying so you have to clarify with that.

01:00:44.820 That's exactly right.

01:00:45.700 And that's what's happening.

01:00:46.620 That's what's happening. 0.98

01:00:47.260 So good Christian couples are getting IUDs or they're taking the pill for that very reason. 0.62

01:00:53.760 And my doctor said it's not abortive.

01:00:56.240 OK, well, that's the key.

01:00:58.960 What's the word again?

01:00:59.700 It starts with an I.

01:01:01.740 Implantation versus fertilization.

01:01:03.460 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:01:03.920 So, yeah, so they don't if you look up the Hobby Lobby case where Hobby Lobby went all the way to the Supreme Court over Obamacare and all of this, like what Hobby Lobby was calling an abortion.

01:01:18.600 And The Atlantic wrote an article about this some time ago, I remember.

01:01:21.580 But anyway, what Hobby Lobby is calling an abortion is they're saying, hey, if it's fertilized and it kills that fertilized egg, that is an abortion.

01:01:34.200 And so there was a debate over that.

01:01:36.160 And so as Christians, we would say, yes, the fertilization of the egg, that is when life begins.

01:01:42.980 So as a pastor, I would recommend people don't get an IUD.

01:01:46.540 I would recommend people don't do the pill.

01:01:50.500 Um, there are other forms of birth control. There is, uh, there are condoms. Uh, there are, uh, of course, and there's natural family planning and they can, they're getting pretty sophisticated with that now. Um, abstinence. There's natural planning. Yeah. Well, I'm just saying you just, I'm saying abstinence in marriage. You're waiting for a second.

01:02:14.820 yeah yeah but even in marriage like you know paul talks about like you could for a season you could

01:02:21.480 abstain abstain he uses the word abstain for a season to devote yourselves to prayer yeah yeah

01:02:26.640 absolutely so uh so i think that's uh that those are reasonable i so i would just say um for the

01:02:34.820 everyday married couple probably my pastoral recommendation would be a condom i know there's

01:02:40.780 in some ways maybe not preferable but um it's also not preferable to kill babies and so that's

01:02:48.460 right um and so right that's why and you don't have to you know just we're not trying to be frank 0.98

01:02:53.020 or crude but just to be helpful and to be clear you the way that a woman's anatomy works you don't 1.00

01:02:58.940 have to wear a condom as a husband every time that uh you make love to your wife uh there's 0.90

01:03:04.560 only certain times where you know if you're in that time you're trying to wait um you need to

01:03:11.120 wear a condom when she's ovulating you know and so you might do a you might say well man you're

01:03:15.200 getting kind of risky go ahead go ahead right so you're suggesting maybe a combination of natural

01:03:20.520 family planning with condom during fertile days yeah is that kind of what yeah and then yeah well

01:03:27.780 i'm saying condom i'm saying even like get the family planning out of there just just condom

01:03:33.700 during fertile days and then have at it you know the rest of the time now i mean just you know that

01:03:38.620 that's i think between the husband and the wife and i think that some of these things are worth

01:03:43.100 bringing a pastor in i think that can be done appropriately where godly counsel can be given

01:03:48.160 and where you're not being crude and you're not being um inappropriate um but even even with that

01:03:54.980 i think you there's there needs to be a carefulness like what are your motives what are you

01:03:59.580 you know what are you trying to do is it just because we just really wanted to go on that

01:04:03.060 vacation or we just really, you know, there's, there's serious questions to ask, but real quick,

01:04:07.100 I just did want to comment on the, the hormonal birth control pill, uh, just so, cause some people

01:04:11.860 may not understand exactly how it works. And in a nutshell, from what I've been able to, you know,

01:04:15.880 doing my research as a pastor so that I could counsel people in the church, I, um, you know, 0.97

01:04:21.160 there's three main, um, measures of, of stopping pregnancy, um, or, you know, having a woman not

01:04:29.160 get pregnant two of them are preventative but but the last one is abortive and so one is the

01:04:33.420 thickening of the cervical fluid uh to where the the sperm just can't you know unlikely that they're

01:04:39.060 going to make it through that's kind of you know too thick they can't swim um the second is uh

01:04:43.640 stopping the ovulation process so that you know even the if the sperm make it through the thickened

01:04:48.360 cervical fluid um there's not an egg at the at the end of the journey for them to to um to fertilize

01:04:54.060 and then the third is a thinning and then this is the one that matters it's the thinning of the

01:04:58.440 uterine lining and um and and that's the one that would not be preventative but that that would be

01:05:05.260 abortive if we believe that life begins at fertilization and so um that that would mean

01:05:10.360 that if a if a sperm could make it to the egg and did fertilize the egg the egg would have nowhere

01:05:14.760 to go it would not have a hospitable um environment habitat for um and so it would it wouldn't be able

01:05:22.060 to attach to to the lining of the uterine wall and it would fall off and here's and here's one

01:05:25.900 of the tragic things and again i think a lot of christians just they don't know they're not

01:05:29.720 educating their doctors sure as heck aren't helping them because they have a worldview that's

01:05:34.300 antithetical to to the christian worldview not all doctors there could be a christian doctor but

01:05:38.200 many doctors and and so one of the the side effects long-lasting effects is christians get

01:05:43.400 off of the pill christian women get off of the pill and and and they want to get pregnant and

01:05:49.160 they want to have a baby or maybe they just come to the conviction we're not going to use the pill

01:05:51.920 anymore um but but what what is possible not in all cases but what is possible is that the cervical

01:05:58.140 fluid uh that you know one of the effects was it's thickening from the pill well that effect

01:06:03.300 can uh will drop off quickly when you go off the pill um ovulation that that you could go back to

01:06:09.400 an ovulation healthy ovulation cycle quickly when you go off the pill um but but there's been you

01:06:15.200 know research done that um the the uterine wall the lining um may may not thicken for for several

01:06:23.480 months even in some cases a year or two and so a husband and wife go off the pill and let's say

01:06:29.180 they're christians and and they don't know this and so now they're trying to get pregnant and

01:06:34.800 unbeknownst to them you know the the the sperm is getting through she's ovulating the egg is in

01:06:42.100 place it's being fertilized and they have no clue but it's her her uterine lining the egg has nowhere

01:06:48.040 to go dead dead and that could that could happen every month for months they could they could

01:06:54.800 inadvertently and i know this is strong language but i want people to feel the weight of it

01:06:57.940 so i want to be sympathetic to to the ignorance but they could inadvertently kill six children

01:07:04.340 now that's a real scenario and if we think in biblical terms of what a child you know

01:07:09.580 That is the, I think, the accurate language that a Christian couple could inadvertently, emphasis on that, inadvertently kill six of their own children.

01:07:22.880 And so it is, it's a really, it's a big deal. 0.96

01:07:25.880 It's a really big deal.

01:07:26.720 And I think it's so foreign to so many Christians are like, what?

01:07:29.680 You guys think that the birth control, like you guys are so conservative, you know, and it's like, no, I mean, it's a pretty easy argument to make.

01:07:39.580 Really?

01:07:40.280 Absolutely.

01:07:40.860 Were you going to say something?

01:07:42.960 Oh, well, there's a couple of more points to hit on.

01:07:46.180 I know we're trying to go fast here as we're trying to tie it up.

01:07:49.180 One is permanent birth control, such as a vasectomy or a woman getting the tubes tied.

01:07:57.300 Which would be preventative.

01:07:59.040 Yeah.

01:07:59.380 Not abortive.

01:07:59.860 Those would be preventative.

01:08:00.920 So I think where I would stand on that, I think there could be situations like a health of the mother, health of the father, I guess.

01:08:08.920 well, father, I don't know how much that's an issue, but health of the mother, uh, uh, particularly,

01:08:15.400 um, I could see an issue there. Um, I could also see, I don't know, I would be open to this, like,

01:08:22.400 um, someone's having a baby at 39 or 40 and it's kind of like getting up there in years and maybe

01:08:28.220 they have a C-section of doctors. Like, do you want us to tie the tubes now? I could see the,

01:08:32.240 the woman maybe saying yes, because like, do I want to have a baby at 41, 42? These are risky

01:08:37.080 pregnancies you know i could see those scenarios i could see that yeah and and so uh but i think

01:08:43.660 i would just say i just be real careful with it like the idea of like being 34 years old and

01:08:49.340 getting a vasectomy because you have your two kids uh i would be against that um but really

01:08:55.140 all of this just all of it comes back to motive you know i won't say all of it so some of it comes 0.76

01:09:01.240 back to, am I killing a baby or not? Once we get past that into maybe potentially permissible

01:09:09.180 territory, it's what is my motive? Is it to protect the health of the mother? Is it to go on

01:09:18.820 more Caribbean vacations? What's my real motive here? Is it because children are hard and I don't

01:09:24.160 want more children? So much comes back to motive. I think the other thing I would say,

01:09:29.740 Now, my view toward church history is that church history, okay, so the Bible is my authority,

01:09:39.560 sola scriptura, right? But I would say that church history provides a guardrail, right?

01:09:46.060 Like, so if somebody believed what the church has believed for 2,000 years, as their pastor,

01:09:51.400 I'm going to feel comfortable, like, oh, okay, good, you believe what the church has believed.

01:09:54.320 It's when we get outside of what the church has historically believed. Hey, I got a new

01:09:58.420 doctrine I just, you know, God revealed to me. Like, no. Right. So church history is important

01:10:05.000 in that regard, even if it is, you know, below scripture in authority. And what I would say on

01:10:12.020 that is that throughout church history, the church has actually been against birth control

01:10:16.380 and including the reformers, our beloved John Calvin. That's right. Yep. That's right. And,

01:10:24.080 you know name a reformer i i again it's been some time but i i've read just tons and tons of church

01:10:32.800 history on this i don't think i ever found anyone that was okay with it so like there actually is a

01:10:39.340 reason that the roman catholic church holds the position that they do yeah it it grew out of that

01:10:44.880 and so um i i have sympathy toward that position you know like the duggars you know 19 and counting

01:10:53.160 what is it 22 and counting i don't even know what it's at now i think the danger like somebody who

01:10:57.900 comes out of the quiver full movement is if they try to put that on everyone and say everybody

01:11:02.600 needs to have 22 kids or they're sinning right like that's a problem i think but um but if

01:11:09.240 somebody just decides to have a whole bunch of kids on their own i ain't got no problem with it

01:11:13.160 i think that's great yeah it's not and i it's i i would actually argue that in many ways

01:11:18.680 it it it seems to be the easier position to defend yeah i would agree i would agree it seems

01:11:27.240 to be the easy so i think like i think you have to be careful if you're you know if you're of the

01:11:34.000 the quiverful mentality which just for the record i think you and i would both say that we're of

01:11:38.620 the quiver like we believe psalm 127 right so like what are we going to say we're not like

01:11:44.480 Yeah, like we're inerrant us and we, you know, Sola Scriptura, but Psalm 127, you know, we just opt out of that.

01:11:50.960 Like, so I want to have a full quiver.

01:11:53.740 I think what we're quibbling over with the quiver, the quiver quibble is, you know, is, I don't know, what is a full quiver?

01:12:03.580 You know, like eight might, you know, that sounds like a pretty full quiver, you know, and then somebody else is 22 or nothing, you know, and like, you know.

01:12:10.920 And so now, now to be fair to the guys who would hold to like onanism being a sin, you know, and the quiverful mentality, I think what they would say is like, well, you don't have to determine a number.

01:12:21.860 I know they would say this.

01:12:22.740 They would say, you don't have to determine a number, Joel.

01:12:26.000 You let God determine the number.

01:12:28.080 And you just, you just love your wife.

01:12:32.720 I mean, that, and so I don't know, just.

01:12:36.380 That's defensible.

01:12:37.540 Yeah.

01:12:37.720 Yeah.

01:12:38.060 So, you know, what, what, you know, what, what's the counter?

01:12:40.920 yeah yeah no i think it's tough i i mean it's an easy position to defend so it is it is but okay

01:12:50.380 if i was to try to like maybe try our more moderating position so like okay giving is a

01:12:58.280 blessing right giving financially do you agree with that it's more blessed to give than receive

01:13:02.760 does that mean that in every single scenario that um if you want the most blessed life you

01:13:09.520 will literally give away every penny that you have because it's more blessed see okay so just

01:13:16.440 you know just for fun i'll i'll play that so that's a good one um so what i would say is yes

01:13:21.080 um i think every um every christian uh and not just every christian here's the irony i would say

01:13:27.240 every single human being by by necessity does give away every penny they have um through death

01:13:33.360 and the question is um the only reason that we wait to give our pennies now is so that we can

01:13:38.420 give more pennies later so i am going to give every penny i have and so are you whether you

01:13:42.880 like it or not to something or someone i would like to give them to my children and grandchildren

01:13:47.700 and to the church of christ so i want to give it to the church and but first of course my children

01:13:52.600 and children's children a wise man a good man leaves inheritance for his children's children

01:13:56.460 and the only reason like the prodigal son that that i don't want to give you know the reprobate

01:14:01.780 son. Um, his, his part portion of the inheritance, uh, today is because I want to give him more

01:14:08.260 later and I had like him to be a little older and a little bit more mature and able to steward it

01:14:12.420 better, but just, you know, I, so I would say, yeah, we do want to give every penny. And the

01:14:16.840 only reason we don't give them all today is because we want to be able to give more pennies

01:14:19.680 later. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know. Um, I, where I was going with it was if

01:14:30.900 it is always more blessed to give than to give than to receive then there's a feasible scenario

01:14:39.720 well yeah i don't know that's a that's a that's a pretty decent response joel i don't know what i

01:14:45.000 would say thank you it just came to me because again i've been i've been reading a decent amount

01:14:50.400 of thomas soul lately so economics has been been on the brain but i i know your general point i

01:14:56.140 know what you're making and just saying that like yeah like is it i think it's what i was saying

01:15:01.560 earlier in terms of just um is there something to be said for for timing is there something to

01:15:06.980 be said for okay like i'm waiting now because because even like economically you know it may

01:15:12.500 be that like all right like i'm not going to make this economic choice today because i want to make

01:15:18.340 this choice later on uh tomorrow and i think and and i'll have more if i'm willing to wait um and

01:15:25.720 And so I think it could be possible that, you know, a young couple where, you know, let's say the husband, you know, they want to be in ministry.

01:15:32.160 The husband's still in seminary.

01:15:33.520 The wife is having to work at that point.

01:15:36.180 And they're like, man, you know what? 0.91

01:15:37.120 Our first three, four years of marriage, we're going to wait.

01:15:42.720 And we're not going to be, you know, we're not going to use anything that would even risk the opportunity of being aborted by nature in terms of birth control.

01:15:50.300 But our intention is to, you know, God can do anything and we trust him, you know.

01:15:54.640 But our intention, as far as man making his plans, our plan is to wait for the next four years while, you know, our husband, you know, tries, my husband tries to finish seminary.

01:16:05.920 And, you know, like, I think that that, like, I would see that as a reason, you know, and I think a couple like that could, you know, they could get married, for instance, they could get married at 21, 22, start having kids at 25.

01:16:17.900 and maybe not dugger level 22 kids but they could have 10 kids you know if the lord wills like it's

01:16:25.080 within the you know what i mean so i i think that yeah and i would know i would look at that and say

01:16:29.060 i don't know if i really have yeah yeah i think for me just being a being a pastor of a church

01:16:36.720 i i try to teach the basic biblical principles and i'll give my best hunch on how that plays

01:16:46.320 out in the nitty gritty of life. But I do try to avoid controlling people in the nitty gritty of

01:16:52.820 life where it's not crystal clear in the scripture. I don't think the scripture is crystal clear that

01:16:58.760 everyone needs to have 22 kids or their son. I agree. I agree. I think that the wisdom of

01:17:06.320 Proverbs and planning and what that looks like, and even loving one's neighbor, health of the

01:17:13.900 kind of deal. I think there are certain mitigating scenarios that maybe common sense would speak

01:17:21.580 into that I think that we should allow for. But as a general rule, I would encourage people to

01:17:26.160 have lots of kids. The other thing I want to say, and maybe as a more final note, is I know some of

01:17:32.080 your viewing audience might be older, might be like, hey, I've already had my one kid. I've

01:17:37.320 already had my two kids. And I can't go back and have a whole bunch of kids. But I can see I had

01:17:43.700 a worldly lifestyle back then, or a worldly view. Maybe I even loved Jesus, but I was just,

01:17:50.860 you know, I kind of was looking at this from a world's perspective, but now I feel convicted by

01:17:55.900 it. Well, to you, I would say, go to Jesus, tell him you're sorry, and then the Great Commission

01:18:03.500 still applies to you. Go and make disciples of all nations. You can still do that. And that's

01:18:07.940 part of the beauty of the clarity that Jesus brought us when he became cosmic King and Lord

01:18:13.100 after the resurrection and ascension and all authority was given to him in heaven on earth

01:18:19.000 and he commissioned us to make disciples. It brought a clarity that, hey, this is an ongoing

01:18:24.860 thing. It's not just when your kids are toddling around. This is like your whole life. You are a

01:18:29.780 disciple maker. So go to Jesus, get your forgiveness if you were doing it for worldly reasons. I'm not

01:18:37.060 saying right right and actually on that note i need to say another thing and that is we as christians

01:18:43.440 don't need to go around judging everybody who has a small household some people can't have kids

01:18:48.880 some people could only have one some could only have two um some didn't find jesus until later

01:18:55.000 you know there's just so many scenarios um that's just not the kind of thing we need to go around

01:19:00.240 judging people for yep i agree i agree it's just again it goes back to that perspicuity of scripture

01:19:06.740 We believe the scripture speaks to all life and doctrine.

01:19:09.680 Having children is certainly something the scripture speaks to.

01:19:12.720 But the scripture doesn't speak to every single arena of life with the same measure of clarity.

01:19:19.840 And what we're talking about is, I mean, you're not even just talking about children.

01:19:24.340 The Bible speaks volumes to parenting and children, the blessing of children.

01:19:27.840 But we're talking about a specific sub-point under that topic of children, how many.

01:19:32.180 you know and and and um yeah it's just you know again i think like it's it's a it is you know the

01:19:42.160 argument of like how many let the lord decide um i get that i really do get that and uh and i

01:19:48.700 i think that that is a fine position to take and it may be the the more biblical position and it's

01:19:54.800 certainly as you said earlier seems to be the witness of church history and my favorite portion

01:19:59.300 of church history, the reformer. So not a bad stance to take. Um, but I do agree with you in

01:20:04.880 terms of, of, um, how, how we engage in that conversation with others. Um, because even though

01:20:11.400 I think that that may be the most defensible position to take and, and perhaps the most

01:20:15.820 biblically faithful position to take, I think it's still different than salvation by grace alone

01:20:20.640 through faith alone in Christ alone, right? Salvation by grace alone through, you know,

01:20:24.440 through faith alone in Christ alone is the best position to take. It's the only position to take, 0.91

01:20:29.300 um but it's also really clear it's really clear it's the crux of the whole scripture you know so

01:20:36.320 so when someone says well i you know i think we're saved by grace plus sacraments or we're

01:20:40.380 saved by through faith plus works you know and in christ plus saints you know and to the glory of

01:20:45.000 god plus the glory of the pope and his tradition and scripture like and we say like dude you met

01:20:50.020 you missed it and and i would have no problem obviously i just described catholicism but i

01:20:54.580 would have no problem talking to you know to well i think there are a lot of regenerate catholics

01:20:59.840 because i think there are a lot of bad catholics um but to good catholics you know because

01:21:04.440 if you're a good catholic then then i think you're in danger um because you're actually

01:21:08.600 prescribing to catholic doctrine i think lots of people come to christ despite catholic doctrine

01:21:12.800 but not because of it and so if you got a good catholic that's you know i would push back on

01:21:16.720 that good catholic and say dude the bible's clear and i and i and i would i would be pretty aggressive

01:21:20.760 Whereas I would not, you know, go to that couple in a church that has two kids and say, dude, clear as day.

01:21:27.880 You're in sin.

01:21:29.280 You know what I mean?

01:21:29.880 It's just not.

01:21:30.580 Yeah.

01:21:31.120 It's not the same.

01:21:32.260 And I think.

01:21:33.180 Yeah.

01:21:33.340 But it's important to have these.

01:21:34.540 It's important to have these conversations, though, because I think for you, for you and me, the biggest thing is worldview.

01:21:42.360 Worldview values.

01:21:43.840 Do I value what God values?

01:21:47.360 If I do and I'm married, I'm going to want to have a lot of kids. And if I don't feel that value in my heart, I should repent, turn to Jesus and ask him to make my heart feel about things the way he does.

01:22:00.860 Amen I think that's great

01:22:02.900 So let's go ahead and close

01:22:04.700 For all of our listeners who are tuning in

01:22:06.940 Viewers

01:22:07.920 You know the drill

01:22:09.740 What we do at the end of each of our episodes of Theology Applied

01:22:12.700 Is we ask our guests to stay on

01:22:14.620 For an additional 5-10 minutes

01:22:16.660 Me and Michael go way back

01:22:18.280 As you've probably told in this episode

01:22:20.080 We have some differences

01:22:21.600 Because I was a part of your church 15 years ago

01:22:24.780 And we've gone different directions

01:22:27.320 In some regard

01:22:27.940 But Michael still to this day

01:22:29.140 I have to say, Michael can quote scripture better than just about any, I think, better than anyone that I at least personally know.

01:22:36.540 He loves the Bible.

01:22:38.680 He remembers a time when, you know, when I used to love the Bible and the Holy Spirit.

01:22:42.400 Now I just love the Bible.

01:22:43.440 No, I'm just kidding.

01:22:44.400 That's what he would want to say and pick on me with a gift because I'm a cessationist now.

01:22:48.420 But Michael loves the Bible.

01:22:50.400 I love the Bible.

01:22:51.240 We both love the Holy Spirit.

01:22:52.340 We have a different view on the gifts.

01:22:53.800 But he loves the scripture.

01:22:56.020 He's a godly man.

01:22:56.880 And although we disagree on a few things, we go way back.

01:23:01.000 And because we go way back, we tend to have longer conversations.

01:23:04.940 So I know this episode is a little bit long and we typically go five, 10 minutes on the bonus edition.

01:23:10.000 But if you tune in, if you're one of our responders, one of our club members, you all the bonus materials available for you.

01:23:16.140 And I encourage you to do that if you haven't done it already.

01:23:18.440 And if you do it, I say it's five or 10 minutes, but who knows?

01:23:21.300 You might you might be in for a half hour.

01:23:23.160 So we'll see.

01:23:24.080 So anyways, here's our bonus question, just to whet your appetite, a little incentive here.

01:23:29.180 How would you defend, we've already been dancing around it and addressing it to some extent, but how would you defend the withdrawal method, right?

01:23:36.960 So absence of condom could be that, or withdrawal.

01:23:39.620 How would you defend that method and or the use of condoms in light of God killing Onan in Genesis chapter 38, verse 6 through 11?

01:23:49.800 So that's our bonus question.

01:23:51.780 Don't answer it.

01:23:52.700 we're going to come, come back on. So that's a bonus question. We're going to end the episode,

01:23:56.100 Michael, you get the last word to tell people how they can follow you, what, you know, what they

01:23:59.440 should know, how they can keep up. Okay, sure. Uh, well, uh, you can find me on my church website,

01:24:06.440 Wellspring, uh, actually website, who cares? Just go to my YouTube page. You can listen to my

01:24:11.320 sermons, my preaching, uh, there. So go into YouTube, Wellspring, just search Wellspring

01:24:16.640 Church DFW, that stands for Dallas-Fort Worth. Another way is that you can...actually, another

01:24:25.700 way you can engage with me would be through my YouTube channel called Remnant Radio or The

01:24:32.260 Remnant Radio, and you can see that's more of like an interview format, kind of like this, but

01:24:36.940 pastors and theologians from all over the world and all across denominations. So next week we

01:24:43.520 have, oh, you'll like this, Joel. We have Dr. Tom Schreiner coming on the show to talk

01:24:48.620 cessationism. My co-host and I are continuationists. But that's the kind of show that we are. We have

01:24:56.920 people come on that sometimes we vehemently disagree with and sometimes that we agree with

01:25:03.280 too. So anyway, so check out the Remnant Radio. Check out Wellspring Church DFW. I've been on a

01:25:10.380 writing leave for five weeks so you'll have to go back a little bit to hear any of my preaching but

01:25:14.660 anyway I'll be on for the next number of weeks before I get a break so anyway you can check it

01:25:21.420 out that way or you can follow I have like I have like 17 twitter followers because I don't tweet

01:25:26.760 enough but in tree 81 you can look me up there I'd like to have 18 followers nice well hopefully

01:25:34.340 we'll get you that 18th follower so all right thanks for coming on the show Michael appreciate

01:25:37.760 as a special thank you for your gift of any amount we'll be happy to send you a free digital

01:25:44.380 book from our store to access this offer visit right response ministries.com slash offer we

01:25:51.100 highly recommend pastor joel's book am i truly saved if you or someone you know has wrestled

01:25:56.080 with doubts about the love of god this would be a great resource as a reminder to get this offer

01:26:01.440 go to right response ministries.com slash offer and thank you for your generous support

01:26:07.760 Thank you.

The NXR Podcast - April 28, 2021

THEOLOGY APPLIED - Christians, Birth Control, and the Blessing of Children

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