The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - Ending Abortion ｜ Incrementalism Vs. Abolitionism ｜ with Dusty Deevers and Jacob Miller

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00:00:40.740 Welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied.

00:00:43.160 I am your host, Pastor Joel Webbin with Right Response Ministries.

00:00:47.580 In this particular episode, I am very privileged to have two special guests.

00:00:52.380 I have Jacob Miller, who is an abolitionist, and he is a member in good standing in my

00:00:57.600 local church, Covenant Bible Church, where I pastor in Georgetown, Texas, just about

00:01:02.640 45 minutes north of Austin, Texas.

00:01:05.060 And then we also have, on this particular episode, Dusty Deavers.

00:01:08.940 Dusty Deavers is a Reformed Baptist pastor.

00:01:11.800 He also is an abolitionist. 1.00

00:01:13.380 I have Jacob and Dusty on this show to talk about the abolishing of abortion that Christians 0.72

00:01:21.160 cannot tolerate compromise and that every law that we put forward must be just according to

00:01:28.340 God's immutable standards in his word. You're going to love this episode. Tune in now.

00:01:34.640 Applying God's word to every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied.

00:01:44.780 All right. Welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied. I am your host,

00:01:48.620 Pastor Joel Webin with Right Response Ministries. And in this episode, I am privileged to have

00:01:53.360 two special guests. I have Jacob Miller, who I am honored to get to be his pastor. He's a member

00:01:59.180 in good standing with his wife and children at Covenant Bible Church in Georgetown, Texas,

00:02:04.420 just north of Austin, where I am a local pastor. And then we also have, joining us for the first

00:02:09.620 time, Dusty Deavers, who lives in Oklahoma City. Is that correct? Southwest Oklahoma, near Lawton,

00:02:16.220 Elgin. Okay. All right. So Southwest Oklahoma. And are you a pastor, Dusty?

00:02:21.300 Yes, I am a pastor of Reformed Baptist Church.

00:02:24.240 Great. And then are you also, I might be thinking of Bradley Pierce, but are you also a lawyer?

00:02:31.880 No, I ran a pharmacy for five years and now I'm a pastor and do some commercial real estate stuff

00:02:40.900 as well. Great. That pharmacy wasn't Pfizer or anything, was it?

00:02:46.220 No, no, it was just a local pharmacy that my father started in 1982.

00:02:52.560 Oh, wow. Cool. All right. Well, welcome to the show, guys. Jacob, thanks for joining us.

00:02:58.140 Good to see you.

00:02:59.500 All right. So this is what we want to talk about. If you were curious, what's the topic going to be?

00:03:03.900 The clue to kind of give you a little bit of a hint would be at Jacob's shirt.

00:03:08.360 In fact, I don't know if I've ever seen Jacob wearing a shirt that's not an abolitionist shirt. 0.62

00:03:13.560 it's always assured that abortion is murder or something like that. One of them I love, 0.87

00:03:18.820 it says ignore Roe, which has become really easy now, praise God. So anyways, Jacob's always 0.71

00:03:24.660 rocking the abolitionist gear. Why don't you guys just kick us off? I've got some comments that I

00:03:29.460 can make, but Jacob or Dusty, why don't you guys take it away? What is the abolitionist position

00:03:34.940 when it comes to the issue of abortion? Well, I guess I'll kick it off. There is a distinction

00:03:42.300 between what it means to be pro-life and what it means to be an abolitionist.

00:03:47.600 Abortion abolitionists recognize children from the moment of conception or fertilization,

00:03:56.800 conception, biblically speaking, fertilization, scientifically speaking, as fully human,

00:04:02.920 creating the image of God, owned by God, where he ensouls and enfleshes that new person

00:04:09.420 from the moment of conception or fertilization and deserving then of the same protection that

00:04:15.580 you or I deserve as born people. And so since we see that life as truly human, then we say

00:04:24.120 what God says, you must treat them as such. And so to take any life before they're born or after

00:04:31.380 is a homicide. So before they're born, it would be prenatal homicide.

00:04:36.640 Now, the pro-life position would be in contrast to that.

00:04:42.740 And the pro-lifers recognize that the most, I think the most well-meaning ones recognize that that is a life from conception or fertilization.

00:04:55.540 but they don't begin to demand their legal protection until sometime after that moment.

00:05:05.400 If we want to be consistent, they don't just not demand their legal protection. They provide the

00:05:13.860 right or protect the right for mothers to murder their own pre-born children with malice of 0.63

00:05:21.240 forethought. So they protect a class of murderers through all pro-life laws. I could go into it 0.72

00:05:30.740 more, but that's kind of the short order. Yeah, no, that's really helpful. Jacob,

00:05:34.440 what do you want to add? Yeah, that's good. That's good as far as like definitionally. I think

00:05:38.960 the biggest thing that separates, in my opinion, the biggest thing that separates an abolitionist

00:05:44.200 from a pro-lifer is taking the biblical text of what defines sin in regards to partiality

00:05:50.380 and applying it completely in all in our practice too so for example many conservatives would look

00:05:57.400 at um would look at like uh affirmative action we'd say oh that's partiality you know they're

00:06:04.780 they're showing uh favor just to black people rather than asians they're making it harder for

00:06:10.400 them to get there but then they would support a heartbeat bill which is showing partiality to

00:06:14.980 some humans after the heartbeat bill and they wouldn't just do it they wouldn't just show

00:06:18.680 support for it they celebrate it with excitement and it's the same kind of partiality except one

00:06:24.500 doesn't let you get into colleges and one allows you to get murdered right yeah and full disclosure

00:06:31.400 you know in my ignorance and foolishness and sin and immaturity um i didn't recognize these things

00:06:37.660 until really the past i would say the past couple years um i didn't really i didn't really know

00:06:43.320 there was a you know when i was pastoring in california before i i moved uh to texas i was

00:06:47.560 born and raised here and so we ultimately moved back at the end of 2020 but when i was pastoring

00:06:51.220 in california we had some guys who were faithful who go outside of uh the the murder mills uh in

00:06:57.020 you know in the city where i pastored and they would you know preach the gospel and i went with

00:07:01.200 them a couple times and always supported that never said it was um bad to do always said it

00:07:06.460 was good and righteous to do and so you know we we were not winsome we were faithful and uh but i

00:07:12.020 but i never really you know i never thought about the inner workings like i'm the kind of guy you

00:07:16.000 know, with a heartbeat bill or something like that, I would have thought like, hey, you know,

00:07:19.400 that's step in the right direction. That's better than nothing. You know, praise God, at least some

00:07:23.720 babies are going to live now, you know, and those kinds of things. And so I want to, you know, as

00:07:29.040 we're doing this, I think that there are some people who are nefarious, who wave the Christian 0.59

00:07:34.840 flag and they know exactly what they're doing. And they're actually, you know, they're just

00:07:42.080 they're just big pro-life people they're making a buck off of this pro the pro-life industry is

00:07:48.280 it's an industry it's it's a you know it's a business like anything else and they know exactly

00:07:52.540 what they're doing they don't care about the babies and they're not actually christian so i

00:07:56.300 think there's plenty of those guys but then i think there are also some other guys uh like

00:08:00.060 like past joel webin you know that uh that were just ignorant uh and so what what are um can you

00:08:08.700 explain like, so, okay, when Texas, you know, drop their heartbeat bill, why, why, like, I understand

00:08:16.020 it's like, they're saying, Hey, you know what, here's a whole class of people, everybody before

00:08:19.040 six weeks or eight weeks that it's, you know, it's open season. It's like purge. If you ever,

00:08:23.100 you know, not recommending the movie, but you know, like here's, here's one day out of the

00:08:26.640 year that you can go and murder, you know, without, without any, you know, without any

00:08:30.740 recourse or, or any penalties. And, and we're saying, Hey, anybody who's younger than six

00:08:35.600 weeks or eight weeks from fertilization, you're free to kill without any penalty. I totally

00:08:41.220 understand how that is unjust and unbiblical, but what would you say to the Christian who's, 0.76

00:08:46.080 you know, this is new to them, the whole abolitionist position, and they're just saying,

00:08:50.520 well, I'm just glad that some babies are being saved. I'm not saying this is just, I'm not saying

00:08:53.940 it's biblical, and certainly we've got to go for more. What would you say to, you know,

00:08:57.680 the incrementalist? What would you say to somebody like Doug Wilson, who I know we,

00:09:00.760 all three of us appreciate him, respect him, are grateful for him, but would differ on this

00:09:05.900 particular topic, maybe this and baptism. And that is probably about it, at least for me.

00:09:10.500 Everything else, I'm with Doug Wilson. So what would you say to somebody like that?

00:09:17.300 You know, Doug has said a couple of times, I've heard him in different venues say,

00:09:23.480 we should reject a bill that says you can, if you, you can't do these things, but then if you do 0.96

00:09:31.120 these things, then you can kill the child. And that's what every incrementalist bill does. So

00:09:39.320 he says that he's a smash mouth incrementalist, but he affirms the types of bills that he says

00:09:46.220 we should fundamentally deny on biblical grounds because they show partiality. Here's the kind of

00:09:54.800 the term that people use is incrementalism. You know, the incrementalist says, well, as long as

00:10:01.560 it'll save one baby, then that's good. And we get that response fairly often. And it seems like

00:10:12.680 a well-meaning response. And it could be, truly could be from someone who thinks this is the

00:10:19.380 best we can do, so we should try to accomplish it. But there's a fundamental flaw in incrementalism.

00:10:28.160 And so let me just quickly define it. It is changed by degree, but really it's any support

00:10:35.220 or action using unequal weights and measures

00:10:39.260 and showing partiality in our legislative efforts.

00:10:43.960 It is seeking to establish a better environment

00:10:50.040 by allowing some evil.

00:10:53.840 In Romans 3, 8, Paul says,

00:10:55.640 if anyone does some evil that some good may come,

00:11:01.000 their condemnation is already proven.

00:11:03.460 We don't even have to talk about it.

00:11:05.220 This is you can't keep one one command by violating the others.

00:11:10.680 If you break the law, you've broken them all.

00:11:13.220 So really what we're seeking to establish is justice or righteous judgment as God demands it.

00:11:21.620 So instead of treating abortion as though it's health care to be regulated, God demands we treat abortion as murder to be criminalized or abolished.

00:11:32.840 And I'll say this, from a biblical standpoint, any willing embrace of an approach to pre-born life that compromises God's holy standard of justice or his own character is an attempt then to usurp God's sovereignty as the creator.

00:11:52.940 it promotes God-hating partiality. And ultimately, that approach to pre-born life that compromises

00:12:02.340 God's standard of justice is an assault on God's image and his glory. So we would never support

00:12:11.480 a partiality in judgment. We must stand exactly where God stands. And I understand that that kind

00:12:20.720 of creates some difficult scenarios for folks. But think of it like this. Does God say to the

00:12:31.020 adulterer, you know what, if you will improve or change your adultery by degree, then everything's

00:12:41.400 going to be okay. We're going to be fine. I'll work with you if you just change by decree. Does

00:12:45.480 he changed his holy standard? He doesn't change his holy standard. He says, you shall not commit

00:12:51.440 adultery. And Jesus says, you can't even lust in your heart. And so while we are sanctified

00:12:58.960 in progress, we progress in our sanctification, while culture often changes by degree and it

00:13:06.800 progresses by degree, God's holy standard never is to be changed or, or slided or shifted because

00:13:14.400 really you're you're saying that god's character is worth changing and so it's it's an assault on

00:13:20.660 god it's image bearers and it must not be promoted by christians this this uh um pragmatism

00:13:30.160 you know pragmatic efforts that that was helpful dusty uh what i would say with your adultery

00:13:36.080 analogy just to this is my opinion correct me if you disagree and i may push back or i might agree

00:13:42.500 with you we'll see but what i would say is that um the christian all right so let's say it's a 0.97

00:13:47.500 young man he's struggling with promiscuity promiscuity masturbation pornography the whole 0.98

00:13:53.100 nine yards he's a single young man but he's a christian he professes christ and let's say he 0.99

00:13:57.800 really is regenerate he really is born again and he he wants to live a life that is holy and he

00:14:02.200 knows that god has called him um to be married and to practice absolute abstinence and chastity

00:14:08.460 before marriage. Let's say that he is being sanctified by degrees, incrementally. But the

00:14:18.380 difference is that every time he sins and he repents his sin unto the Lord, it's a whole

00:14:24.280 repentance in the sense of, he's not saying to the Lord, you know what, I'm sorry that I looked

00:14:30.040 at pornography for 10 minutes. Next time I promise to look at it only for nine, thinking that the

00:14:34.900 Lord would be pleased with this wager. Instead, he's saying, you detest and hate this entirely,

00:14:42.220 and by your grace, I'm going to do my very best as empowered by the Holy Spirit to not do it ever

00:14:48.800 again, to not even think of a woman lustfully, to not look upon it, to make a covenant with my eyes,

00:14:54.960 you know, this and that, to, you know, like Owen would say, to make even no provisions for the

00:15:00.260 flesh, to get more accountability, to do this, to do that, the whole nine yards, and then he fails.

00:15:04.900 So that genuinely is his plea. That's his heart. That's his prayer. That's his intent is wholesale

00:15:11.560 repentance, complete sanctification. Three days go by and he fails. And the next time he fails,

00:15:18.860 it is a lesser degree than the previous failure. What I would say is that that is incremental

00:15:24.780 improvement, but the difference is in terms of the design and plan and intent was complete

00:15:33.700 holiness to be holy as god is holy and and and righteous as he is righteous that's what each of

00:15:39.160 us like like we're all none of us we we all three of us would reject um you know the doctrine of of

00:15:45.300 arriving at we're not wesleyan we don't believe in secondness and you know sinless perfectionism

00:15:49.780 in this life um so so we know that none of us are going to be completely sanctified in this life

00:15:54.720 we're all in varying degrees in varying areas going to wrestle with sin um but the difference

00:15:59.660 is um the intent in my mind that the difference is uh the will it's the will is god i never want

00:16:06.420 to sin again i never want to sin again and uh and does does that make sense with you you know

00:16:12.340 whereas whereas the abort the incrementalist uh pro-life person with abortion is actually the

00:16:18.300 intent and plan is actually um let's kill let's kill 500 babies and not 600 babies and that that 0.96

00:16:25.220 is the plan. I think, uh, you know, when we're talking about, um, an incrementalist kind of 0.95

00:16:31.960 pro-life person, you know, that may be what they're convinced is happening. Um, and there may

00:16:40.200 be some, some, there may be some, some honest ignorance there. Uh, the reality is, is when

00:16:45.800 you're at the state house and you're talking to legislators, you know, a legislator brings a bill

00:16:50.260 and uh you know we have abolition bills and the bills are there and they're they very much can

00:16:55.920 choose right now to abolish abortion to give equal protection but but instead they choose to ignore

00:17:03.180 it and choose the partiality and there's this conception that like somebody can be both right

00:17:09.860 like the like doug wilson and they call himself smash mouth incrementalism we want we want this

00:17:15.420 we want to have both like let's do abolition and let's have the incrementalism well the reality

00:17:19.700 is is that if you walk into every state house in the entire country there's not even maybe two or

00:17:24.800 three republican legislators that would ever fit that bill the reality is is that it's the

00:17:29.980 incrementalists who use the arguments of that crowd to justify their incrementalism with the

00:17:35.940 with accepting and not even doing abolition so what you end up running into is there's really

00:17:42.860 only two types of people there's the people who understand sin and justice and there's the people

00:17:46.720 who want to compromise right i do think jacob you've said this before but i i do think that

00:17:52.220 there is something to be said for i've noticed whether it be jeff durbin whether it be um you

00:17:57.480 know uh you know uh uh pierce bradley or whether you know you guys are you know the the guys in

00:18:04.200 the abolitionist camp what i've noticed is uh and then the guys who would be you know more

00:18:07.820 incrementalist but but we know our we know they're christian guys like we're not sitting here saying

00:18:12.280 that you know that the moscow crews we i i love right the moscow absolutely you know and so like

00:18:17.340 so i'm not talking about bart barber or something you know whatever i'm talking about like christians

00:18:21.940 you know solid christian men who love the lord and who who we would just we'd say but you're wrong

00:18:26.660 and you're seriously wrong on this issue but you are solid christian so if we're if we're saying

00:18:31.140 you know moscow crew versus uh jeff durbin crew you know and jacob miller and dusty deavers i've

00:18:36.820 notice one key difference. Hardly anybody's doing more in one side. If you think about it in one

00:18:44.440 sense for restoring a joy of biblical womanhood, right? And loving children, being a keeper at

00:18:54.080 home, loving your husband, wanting to have children, like Moscow's killing it on that end. 0.98

00:19:00.340 They're doing great. But I don't know hardly anybody except for abolitionists. And I keep 0.52

00:19:06.160 thinking of Durbin, you know, and Apologia guys that I've been building some relationship with

00:19:11.280 over the last couple of years, but those guys are on the sidewalk in front of the abortion mill,

00:19:16.920 right? And so like when it, you know, so when people start using victim kind of narratives,

00:19:20.900 or was she, you know, the mom doesn't know what she's doing, or she's just in a hard place.

00:19:24.660 The abolitionists disagree with that position because they're the ones seeing the blue-haired 0.88

00:19:28.160 feminist who's smiling at, you know, as she's taking, popping a pill, you know, on the courthouse 1.00

00:19:34.060 steps to kill. They love killing children. They're not victims. They love murder. And I've 1.00

00:19:41.000 noticed it's the guys who are presenting bills, like what you said, Jacob. So that's in front of

00:19:45.340 the mill. But then also in the courthouse, it's the guys who are presenting those bills and in

00:19:51.680 court and having those conversations and watching the pro-life industry and the way they shoot down

00:19:57.320 the bill, watching the ERLC send letters to it. But those are the guys I've noticed. It's the

00:20:03.760 abolitionists who are in the fray, um, who are, who are like, yeah, this is not innocent. These

00:20:10.180 people are not ignorant. They know exactly what they're doing and it's, and it's wicked. And I've 0.73

00:20:13.740 noticed that most of the people who are sympathetic with the incrementalist position, including my

00:20:18.300 past self, um, it's, it's because we didn't spend enough time on outside of an abortion mill,

00:20:25.520 seeing the women going in and seeing the response when we, when we preach to them,

00:20:29.140 the gospel and presenting bills and those kind of, you're not seeing the malice, the nefarious,

00:20:34.880 sinister. We're talking about wicked people. Would you guys agree with that?

00:20:40.400 For the most part, yeah, I would agree that there are a lot of wicked people who go with malice

00:20:47.980 of forethought and kill their children, whether they go to the abortion mill and pay a hitman,

00:20:55.120 an assassin, whether it's an accomplice who's taking them to the abortion mill, or whether

00:21:01.720 they're buying abortion pills online, planning, making that phone call, looking up who they

00:21:08.280 need to call, calling, talking to a doctor in Europe, and then that doctor in Europe

00:21:14.080 going ahead and calling in a prescription to a pharmacy in India, and then that woman

00:21:19.280 waiting for several days to go out to her mailbox and pick up those pills and then carry those pills 0.70

00:21:26.480 into her house through her the threshold of her door and go into her bedroom or her bathroom or

00:21:32.500 wherever she goes and she takes those pills with malice aforethought knowing exactly what she's

00:21:37.880 doing and then waiting and the first pill goes the mifeprex and then she waits a day or two 0.51

00:21:45.460 maybe three, and takes the second round of pills, misoprostol, and she kills her baby

00:21:54.980 with malice aforethought. There are those, the majority of women who are killing their children 1.00

00:22:00.840 are like that. Now, there are some who truly are victims in the sense, in the legal sense,

00:22:06.940 that they are coerced. They are under duress, life, and limb. There are some of those,

00:22:13.040 But the best protection for those kinds of women is a law that would protect the life of their child that would make abortion a homicide, a prenatal homicide, because if the pimp or the boyfriend forced her and she was under serious duress, then they would actually be treated as murderers. 1.00

00:22:39.080 And she would be protected from that, what she did. 0.83

00:22:44.480 And it would also help her conscience.

00:22:46.540 We talked to, I'm sure Jacob's the same. 0.89

00:22:48.880 There is a young lady in my church. 1.00

00:22:53.200 There are actually two ladies in my church who have had abortions. 0.82

00:22:57.640 And they've both said, if the law would have told me that this is murder,

00:23:02.480 if it would have taught me the pedagogical nature of the law,

00:23:06.280 If it would have taught me that this was murder, I would not have done it.

00:23:09.860 But it's the pro-life laws in each of these states that's telling people when, where, how they can kill their own children with malice aforethought, with legal immunity.

00:23:24.580 Can I just go ahead?

00:23:27.080 We call them regulatory bills.

00:23:28.360 I mean, that's and pro-lifers that defend them get get insulted like they get they call it they get insulted when we call it that like their regulation bills.

00:23:38.360 They regulate like like Dusty was saying, when, where, how to get an abortion, what tools you can use.

00:23:45.440 But that's when a doctor has to do it or when a woman has to do it and not get charged. 1.00

00:23:50.520 How do they find out how to do it? Well, they have to go to the law. 0.98

00:23:53.480 What does the law say?

00:23:55.000 Which tools can I use as a doctor?

00:23:57.080 How early do I have to do it?

00:23:59.120 What tool do I have to use? 0.76

00:24:00.800 That's their regulatory bills. 0.70

00:24:02.360 They're just regulating something.

00:24:04.360 And conservatives know that if you treat something like a product and you're regulating a service and a product, all that's going to happen is the market's going to rotate and move.

00:24:17.100 And so even this last year session when Texas had the heartbeat bill and then we had the trigger bill and we had all these bills.

00:24:26.360 It was the biggest punch that the regulation bills have ever taken in the history of Texas.

00:24:31.960 Well, turns out it didn't even stop more than six percent of the fifty five thousand babies that are slaughtered in Texas alone every year.

00:24:40.560 Not even six percent. I mean, a large percentage of those are going out of state.

00:24:45.740 And, you know, Texas only has jurisdiction over their state, but there's at least 19,000 that are still taking the abortion pill with malice and forethought on Texas soil.

00:24:57.320 Yeah. Can I say something towards those bills?

00:25:01.160 Joel, you brought up, I think, a good point to talk through earlier about sanctification happening in progress or by degree.

00:25:10.220 But the standard never changes. A guy who says, you know, I stopped committing adultery on my wife, but now I'm having trouble with my porn addiction.

00:25:22.960 He whenever he sins by looking at pornography, I don't think he ever says, well, God says it's OK for me to let myself off the hook.

00:25:33.800 He says that God's standard never changed because God didn't change.

00:25:40.100 And that repentance actually is that repentance unto life is that saving grace that he looks at the nature of his sin in light of the mercies of God.

00:25:52.780 And he turns from that sin unto God because the standard didn't change.

00:25:59.700 If the standard would have changed, it would have been a partial turning.

00:26:02.820 And God wouldn't accept that. So repentance is what you're you're looking for. And these laws then to then incrementalism in law would be to say, well, God's holy standard is changing and he will accept a partiality in our repentance.

00:26:22.060 Or he will accept us changing culture by degree, not because we're accepting that culture will change by degree, but because we are going to promote culture changing by degree.

00:26:38.320 There's a difference in saying we want to we're going to promote change by degree versus recognizing by nature we do change by degree because we're so sinful.

00:26:49.920 If we were more self-controlled and more disciplined, we wouldn't change by degree.

00:26:57.300 We would repent and not do it again, but that's the nature of it.

00:27:01.560 And that's what I was saying.

00:27:02.680 You're absolutely right.

00:27:03.500 That's what I was saying before is there's a difference between the plan and intent versus

00:27:08.940 what providentially plays out because of God's sovereignty over all things, including our

00:27:13.840 degrees of sanctification and, of course, our depravity and the fact that sin is pervasive.

00:27:19.920 and that sin, you know, it is a lifelong process of putting, you know, mortifying sin and putting

00:27:25.340 it to death. That said, like, I, you know, it's, it's funny because it's on one hand,

00:27:30.520 when, when we improve in any area, when we go from one degree of progressive righteousness to

00:27:37.940 another, right? For the, for the one who has faith in Jesus Christ and has been born again

00:27:41.440 by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone, their positional righteousness in terms 0.67

00:27:45.520 of justification, there are no degrees. A man is either wholly justified or wholly condemned.

00:27:49.700 So your perfect positional righteousness, justification, but in terms of progressive

00:27:54.560 righteousness, sanctification, again, it is, you know, it is this lifelong process.

00:27:58.580 It is degree by degree.

00:28:00.480 But again, it's, it's, it's the intent.

00:28:02.780 The plan is to be holy as he is holy.

00:28:04.880 The plan is the plan is never compromised.

00:28:08.720 The plan is Lord free me from my sin.

00:28:11.960 And, and when we, you know, I'm thinking about it, like whenever there is an improvement

00:28:15.920 in the realm of sanctification, on one hand, I do celebrate. I celebrate what the Lord has done.

00:28:22.860 I celebrate that I'm still a sinner, but by God's grace, I'm not the man I used to be,

00:28:28.020 right? I'm not the man I want to be, but I'm not the man I used to be. However, at the same time,

00:28:31.640 that celebration is not the only thing that I'm doing because Paul says in 2 Corinthians that

00:28:36.780 there is no repentance. What leads to repentance that leads to life is sorrow, a particular kind

00:28:42.460 of sorrow, namely godly sorrow, not worldly sorrow and mere regret, but godly sorrow that

00:28:47.280 leads to repentance. And without that repentance, there's not going to be sanctification and life.

00:28:52.660 And so whenever, by God's grace, I am progressively sanctified in this life, going from one degree of

00:28:59.560 holiness to a greater degree of holiness in terms of progressive righteousness, I do celebrate the

00:29:05.240 Lord's work in my life. But I also rightly recognize that it is not a completed work and

00:29:11.380 that there's still, although there is reason for celebration, there is still also in the very same

00:29:16.500 breath, much reason for sorrow, lamenting and having godly sorrow over the sin, which still

00:29:23.040 remains. And if there is no sorrow for the sin that still remains, then I'm not going to get

00:29:27.980 any better. I'll just be content. I'll just stop. Here would be one of the big differences.

00:29:33.940 you don't if you're struggling with a porn addiction you don't say to yourself I will

00:29:42.580 let myself look at pornography seven times this week and then next week I'm going to work on six

00:29:50.040 and then five and four and then I say this is the law for me the law for me is that seven times this

00:29:57.900 week and I write it down and I make a check mark every time I look at pornography seven okay I hit

00:30:02.520 seven times and I'm progressing in righteousness. So what you're actually doing is you're creating

00:30:07.460 a law that is wicked and defiled before God and saying, I don't need God in these seven times.

00:30:15.700 I don't need God. I'm willfully going to commit idolatry and show partiality towards the wicked

00:30:22.940 sin and really condemn the righteousness of God. And that's what these incremental bills are doing.

00:30:33.400 Let me read you the text. So it's the plan. It's the plan. It's the intent. That's what I'm saying.

00:30:39.200 It sounds like you're saying the very same thing, Dusty. It sounds like it's the plan. Like I'm

00:30:42.960 making a plan and I'm saying that this is going to be sufficient and pleasing to the Lord. It's

00:30:48.060 it's not God's law. I'm trying to move the immutable law of God, make compromise it,

00:30:53.640 make it less than what it really is. And God despises that. God hates that. So it's the plan.

00:30:59.060 Whereas if I fail, but my plan was perfection to be holy as he is holy, but I fail and I fail less

00:31:06.040 than the previous week, I can rejoice in the fact that there is improvement, still more in the sin

00:31:10.960 that remains. But the plan for that week was perfection. And the plan for next week is

00:31:14.600 perfection and the plan for right yeah and here's the big distinction let me let me read you the

00:31:20.080 texas heartbeat act here's the big distinction like i said uh with with the guy who's struggling

00:31:26.320 with pornography he's he sets a standard that's not god's holy standard and then he meets it and

00:31:31.660 he says i'm getting better well he is actually violating god's standard and committing idolatry

00:31:39.040 because he set another law.

00:31:41.140 He set a different means for justice.

00:31:43.300 And that's what all these bills are.

00:31:46.260 So think of it this way.

00:31:48.280 God's standard of justice is equal protection

00:31:51.320 under the law for all lives from fertilization inception.

00:31:55.360 In Texas, you've had a couple of those bills 0.98

00:31:58.700 that were for equal protection

00:32:00.000 put before the legislature, the legislation.

00:32:03.280 They rejected those and instead said,

00:32:06.300 we want the bill that compromises God's justice, like the Texas Heartbeat Act. In the Texas Heartbeat

00:32:13.300 Act, within the Texas Health and Safety Code 171.206B, it says this, the Texas Heartbeat Act

00:32:21.400 may not be construed to authorize the initiation of a cause of action against or the prosecution

00:32:27.880 of a woman on whom an abortion is performed or induced or attempted to be performed or

00:32:36.140 induced in violation of this chapter or this sub chapter. So the Texas heartbeat act not only said

00:32:42.960 that children that are under six weeks old are work. You can kill them under legal protection, 0.99

00:32:51.660 but it also said a mother who kills her own child with malice of forethought is, has legal immunity. 0.98

00:33:00.380 So you see, that's not God's standard. They had the opportunity to pass God's holy standard.

00:33:05.340 Instead, they said, no, we want a wicked, impartial bill that writes into code or into law the murder of pre-born children.

00:33:19.380 I was going to say, I'm with you 100%.

00:33:22.720 What sold me was equal, basically equal penalties means equal protection.

00:33:27.780 Equal protection means equal value.

00:33:30.120 you cannot say you cannot hold to the christian biblical view that the unborn person is just as

00:33:37.000 valuable like fully human you and and it even messes with the incarnation of christ that christ

00:33:42.460 was not fully human and fully god the god man there was nine months where where christ was

00:33:48.640 fully god but partly man partly human he was less than human in the womb from conception by the holy

00:33:54.320 spirit the virgin mary that was something less than man something so if we're going to actually

00:33:59.000 say that, um, that the unborn child is a full image bearer, the living God, then they have

00:34:04.160 equal dignity, equal worth, equal value. If they have equal value, they deserve the same measure

00:34:09.220 protections. And, and where do those protections come? Like what makes a life protected penalties

00:34:15.280 for the one who would attempt to take that life. So whatever the penalty is for, for, for taking a,

00:34:21.940 a, a five-year-old child to a hit man and shooting them in the head. If a, if a, if a mother did that, 0.97

00:34:28.480 whatever that penalty would be, that should be the penalty for the unborn child. And then we 0.69

00:34:33.040 would go further because it's not just whatever society determines that penalty would be. We can

00:34:37.540 also say with certainty what that penalty should be according to the law word of God and say that

00:34:42.740 it is a tooth for a tooth, eye for an eye, and life for a life. And that's not because the Bible

00:34:47.560 isn't pro-life in the right sense of the term. It is because the Bible heralds and esteems

00:34:54.260 so highly the sanctity of life that the only thing that you can do when taking a life to show how

00:35:00.780 valuable life is, is that if you take a life, you forfeit your own. And I appreciate what Gary North

00:35:06.400 says, Theonomist, on this particular topic. He says that the penalty, the law was always to

00:35:13.840 restitution, to make the person whole. But in the case of murder, there is no way to make the

00:35:18.780 offended party, the oppressed party whole, that family grieving the loss of a loved one. And so

00:35:25.320 in that case, it is not to say that the criminal was put to death and somehow that makes the grieving

00:35:32.880 family whole who has lost a loved one that this criminal murdered. It is that it's such a grievous

00:35:39.940 crime, murder, taking someone's life, that there is no way to make it whole here on earth. And so

00:35:45.260 what we must do is to immediately transfer that person to a higher court aka execution and send

00:35:52.320 them to god you know for for judgment and which you know so whether you like gary north or not

00:35:56.380 you know or rush doing or the but the point is like i i'm sold on uh yeah it's got to be equal

00:36:02.360 penalties to be equal protection to be eat to say that we actually think it's a life it's an equal

00:36:08.060 life anything less than that is not biblical and you're just kidding yourself when you say the

00:36:12.680 unborn child is just as much an image bearer of the living God as the born person. If you don't

00:36:17.760 hold the equal penalties, you don't believe that. So I'm 100% on board with that. And I'm 100% on

00:36:24.020 board with every bill that's presented, just like that's what I was talking about, the intent or the

00:36:28.120 plan. Every time we're trying to be sanctified and mortify sin by grace is we're saying holiness

00:36:33.160 is the standard. Holiness is the standard. So every bill needs to be holiness. What does God

00:36:38.440 say is holy murder is penalized with the death penalty i that i think that's right are you guys

00:36:46.600 so that i'm i'm so i guess my question though is but can we when something like that what would

00:36:53.380 you say to the christians who are like 100 i agree with you dusty i agree with you jacob

00:36:57.260 but uh i'm still really happy that roe got overturned because i'm i'm really happy that

00:37:02.340 roe got overturned and i understand statistically there's not a lot a lot of lies being saved but

00:37:07.520 I'm happy for a number of reasons

00:37:09.600 in the providence of God, you've got

00:37:11.640 this thing that was never law to begin with

00:37:13.760 but a bunch of people are hiding

00:37:15.260 pro-lifers hiding behind it, you know, and now we can

00:37:17.700 say, oh, where's that thing you were hiding behind

00:37:19.820 you can't do it anymore, like

00:37:21.160 you know what I mean, like what can we celebrate

00:37:23.600 I guess is my question, while still

00:37:25.780 holding to God's immutable standard

00:37:27.620 I mean, that's good

00:37:31.920 yeah, I mean

00:37:33.260 an abolitionist celebrates every life

00:37:35.940 that is saved

00:37:37.520 Um, we just don't believe that the, we need to celebrate the iniquitous decree that does it. We, we will celebrate, you know, like another beautiful baby born that's made in the image of God. We will, we will celebrate that every single time.

00:37:52.900 Um, but what happens is people equate the iniquitous law to, to, to be equal with the

00:38:02.160 babies that are actually becoming like, look, they're, they're doing evil.

00:38:06.060 So the good may come.

00:38:06.820 And we're saying, look at the evil thing.

00:38:08.440 Let's keep doing that.

00:38:10.620 Or maybe they're saying, let's not, maybe they're not saying, let's keep doing that,

00:38:14.500 but they are saying they are celebrating a step.

00:38:18.860 And so next week, it's going to be six times.

00:38:21.560 i commit adultery and next week it's going to be five times and uh i heard i heard uh an

00:38:27.460 abolitionist say this once i think it was russell hunter say that you know the thing about um the

00:38:33.500 thing about incrementalism is you can you can you can do as many increments as you want i mean you

00:38:39.620 can find you can do an increment a million million times because there will always be an increment

00:38:45.100 what you said to me jacob that was really challenging and you said it humbly like with

00:38:49.580 me as your pastor and you and the member of the church, but you challenged me, you know,

00:38:54.000 because I was like, well, I'm glad that we're getting closer. And the way you said it is this,

00:38:57.760 because it's not the best analogy, you know, the illustration we're saying adultery seven times,

00:39:01.900 six times, five times, because that assumes that, you know, in seven weeks we're done,

00:39:06.200 you know, which would be great. That's not happening with the pro-life establishment.

00:39:09.840 What you said, Jacob, you said is the incrementalist and the pro-life establishment,

00:39:14.320 um what they're committed to doing in actuality is is not seven six five four and getting to zero

00:39:20.300 it's splitting the penny a million ways it's indefinitely eternally forever splitting splitting

00:39:27.400 splitting splitting but there will always be room for murder their plan is not ever to really truly

00:39:34.040 entirely get rid of murder it is it is to corner murder but to always leave quarter right like so

00:39:40.720 no quarter November. It's to always leave quarter for murder. Always.

00:39:46.520 And I think that the other really important factor here is that when we think about bills

00:39:51.140 that are being written, they're not just ideas that exist in the air. There's a person behind

00:40:02.200 that, and that person behind that bill takes on a particular role. So Joel takes on the role of

00:40:10.260 pastor in some situations, and Joel also takes on the role of father in some situations, and there's

00:40:15.900 some people who take on the role of governing authority in some situations, and the governing

00:40:20.920 authorities have certain things in Scripture that speak to their realm of authority, and when the

00:40:26.540 Scripture speaks to them, they're in sin when they don't do it, or, you know, when it's a sin of

00:40:32.540 omission, or when they do do it when it's a sin of commission, obviously, and so in this case,

00:40:37.620 It would be that they're choosing to abandon the justice that they're called to live by.

00:40:43.900 Romans 13 gives them a role and a duty to bear the sword against evildoers.

00:40:51.060 And instead, they're justifying the wicked and condemning the righteous in a heartbeat bill.

00:40:55.940 They're justifying the woman who, for any reason whatsoever, can go do it, because that's what the heartbeat bill said that you heard Pastor Devers read. 0.63

00:41:06.840 and they're condemning the righteous that are before a heartbeat bill. 0.94

00:41:10.720 And Proverbs says that those are both alike in abomination.

00:41:15.180 So he has a role and a duty to carry out that role as our governing authority.

00:41:22.740 So the other thing that happens when we celebrate these types of bills

00:41:26.700 is that we celebrate him condemning the righteous and justifying the wicked. 1.00

00:41:31.700 And we want to scream and yell about LGBT abominations 1.00

00:41:35.180 and about all these other abominations. 1.00

00:41:37.360 But guess what?

00:41:38.340 Like this is on par or worse, depending on the situation.

00:41:43.220 So there is this kind of comes back to the initial distinctions that we were making.

00:41:50.040 In the pro-life establishment, they will never abolish abortion.

00:41:54.580 They might say they want to abolish abortion and they co-opt some of our language.

00:41:58.560 but to abolish abortion is to actually criminalize the act of prenatal homicide and hold all parties

00:42:07.420 culpable for that murder. They will never do that because they will always and only see that woman

00:42:15.360 as a victim. Now, Barber has said that in some way, he has conceded that in some way, the mother

00:42:24.360 is sometimes culpable morally but she is never culpable legally so she's a victim in that sense

00:42:34.980 of uh yeah i know it's it's i'm sorry dude i just the sbc just cracks me up i yeah because i remember

00:42:43.120 when they used to be christian but i it's just so funny they're like like because basically what

00:42:47.920 you're getting at is it we're talking about a major leader and the sbc that he he's willing

00:42:52.240 to concede that women might be sinners.

00:42:55.820 That's maybe, you know. 0.95

00:42:57.860 Yeah, it's like the unpardonable sin is to say 0.98

00:43:01.320 that a woman is capable of sinning, you know. 0.80

00:43:05.000 So then we infanticize women and say, well, you know, 0.99

00:43:09.400 maybe they're below the point of accountability. 0.68

00:43:14.040 I tweeted that a couple months ago.

00:43:15.340 I said as long, you can either have a society 0.99

00:43:17.720 that worships women or saves babies. 0.99

00:43:20.420 You can't have both. 0.73

00:43:21.020 you know, that's what it comes down to. Abortion, I think is the fruit of worshiping women. I think 1.00

00:43:26.360 it's goddess worship. Um, I, you know, and I think as long as we worship, not saying that men aren't

00:43:31.000 involved, I know we're involved, that men, men are, we're called to lead and we have abdicated

00:43:35.920 that authority. Men are, are absolutely morally culpable before God. Um, but I do think that

00:43:42.720 there is absolutely a direct, that's a real straight line that you can draw between feminism 1.00

00:43:47.840 and killing babies? Yeah. The pro-life establishment recognizes that abortion itself 1.00

00:43:55.240 is an act that can be performed by doctors or the pill industry, but it is not an act performed by

00:44:00.980 a mother. And that's a major distinction. The mother is a victim, even though she's killing

00:44:08.500 her child, she could be morally culpable, but she should never be legally culpable.

00:44:12.460 And that's why they will never abolish abortion, even though they say, like the ERLC says, that they want to create a culture of life that makes abortion illegal, unnecessary and unthinkable.

00:44:25.080 They will leave out that illegality for the mother.

00:44:29.340 It'll be illegal for the doctors and for the pill industry, but not the mother.

00:44:32.500 you're right yeah the irony of all that is that um how do you make it unthinkable and all these 0.71

00:44:39.760 other things without the gospel and how do you have the gospel for a woman if she's not guilty 0.76

00:44:45.260 if she's not a sinner how can there be grace and forgiveness and salvation you're right

00:44:48.980 so there's no culture change without the gospel proclamation there's no gospel proclamation that 0.91

00:44:55.320 applies without a woman being guilty of murder for this for this uh situation i like what you

00:45:02.260 said earlier, amen, Jacob. Great point. And I like what you said earlier, Dusty, kind of

00:45:06.320 throwing back like 15 minutes, 20 minutes now, but where you just talked about the law as a tutor,

00:45:12.080 that you had two individuals at your church, that part of the reason why their conscience was

00:45:17.380 assuaged in regards to, in the past, getting abortion. We're not saying there's forgiveness

00:45:23.720 for murderers. There's forgiveness for sodomites. There's forgiveness for all kinds of kidnappers

00:45:29.720 and slavers, there's forgiveness all around. But the condition is repentance. The condition is

00:45:35.920 faith and repentance. You know, I like R.C. Spole, you know, he said, people always say God's love

00:45:40.080 is unconditional. Unconditional love of God, unconditional love of God. He said, well, if it's

00:45:43.860 so unconditional, why does God set the condition to repent? And we believe as good Calvinists that

00:45:49.940 God, you know, there is a condition of faith and repentance and God meets those conditions. That's

00:45:54.460 what makes the new covenant so amazing that in his sovereignty, God actually grants faith and

00:45:59.980 repentance as gifts, but they must be present. They must be there. And so all that being said,

00:46:05.080 the law is that, well, that's another gift, but the law is a tutor. And we have the law of God

00:46:09.580 written on our hearts, not just as Christians, but all people, right? That's Romans one, Romans two,

00:46:14.500 the Gentiles, pagan nations that never received a single ounce of special revelation, not an ounce 0.99

00:46:20.120 of scripture or preacher and evangelist, their own conscience testifies against them. And 0.96

00:46:25.880 essentially Paul's saying, if you can't even meet your own standard, what makes you think that

00:46:30.480 you're going to meet God? So you stand condemned. Natural revelation is sufficient, not to say,

00:46:36.120 but to condemn all mankind, the unbeliever, you know, who doesn't, has never heard the gospel 1.00

00:46:41.160 or anything like that. And, but one of the things, it's a grace of God and the second use of God's

00:46:46.000 law. It's a grace of God when a society as a whole takes that law of God that's written on

00:46:51.680 each individual heart, including the unbeliever, and works it into legislative law for the society

00:46:56.920 as a whole. It says that thing that you know in your heart of hearts, in your conscience, 0.67

00:47:01.560 we're going to make that the law of the land in a formal capacity. But when the law of the land

00:47:07.240 says this is wrong, if you kill a child in the womb after eight weeks, after 16 weeks, 0.97

00:47:14.920 after six weeks, or you kill them in this way. You have a doctor's appointment and they use 0.55

00:47:19.900 instruments inside of you. But if you do it at this time with this way, this pill over here,

00:47:25.660 and you do it over there, then there is no penalty. Essentially, the law as a tutor is

00:47:32.760 discipling. The law disciples us. The law is discipling women and saying, this is not sin.

00:47:39.720 There's nothing to feel sorry for. There is no guilt. Therefore, no need of repentance. Therefore, 0.73

00:47:44.240 no need of salvation. And that, and I think when Christians present a law like that, what you guys 1.00

00:47:49.120 are saying, again, correct me if I'm wrong, but you're saying a Christian cannot, no person can,

00:47:54.520 but a Christian certainly cannot present a law that comes in as a substitute teacher. Imagine, 0.82

00:48:00.340 you know, who's going to teach people that two plus two is five to children. It's going to tutor

00:48:05.400 them incorrectly. And then they're going to take a test one day and be judged on it. And he is,

00:48:10.200 He is intentionally teaching them wrong curriculum, falsities as though they are truth, to set

00:48:18.440 them up to fail the ultimate test when they stand one day before God, that that is, not 0.92

00:48:23.420 only does it kill babies, but it damns women, right? 1.00

00:48:27.220 Yeah, yeah. 1.00

00:48:28.260 So, I mean, you're right.

00:48:30.200 The law should, the law that's written on the heart and the law of the land should coincide

00:48:36.120 perfectly.

00:48:37.800 And whenever they don't, whenever we actually write a law that says you can do what God

00:48:43.500 demands you must not do, like let's take the sixth commandment, you shall not murder.

00:48:48.440 And then we write a pro-life law that says you shall not murder children that are over

00:48:53.620 six weeks old.

00:48:56.060 But we're not going to say anything about you murdering them ones that are under six 1.00

00:49:00.480 weeks, or we say abortion is, is illegal, but a mother can kill her child by pill with impunity, 0.63

00:49:09.740 and she will be part, not even have to be pardoned. She'll be not recognized as having done

00:49:16.960 really anything under the law. As soon as we cause a bifurcation or we break the law that's 0.97

00:49:25.780 written on the heart away from the law of God, we are the ones who are usurping the sovereignty

00:49:32.160 of God, his authority, and his lordship over the conscience. If Christians would write laws that 0.96

00:49:39.700 say, you don't have to listen to the Lord of your conscience, you can listen to this law,

00:49:46.040 then we become God. And we are telling people, you should worship God in our way. And that's

00:49:52.760 unacceptable. It's the violation of the conscience. The violation of the conscience, Dusty, I hadn't

00:49:58.720 thought about it in those terms, but that's absolutely, that's just one more. So, I mean,

00:50:02.280 obviously it's babies are going to die. Women are going to be damned because they're told they're 1.00

00:50:06.640 not sinners, but the violation of the conscience is another factor that I didn't consider. That's 0.98

00:50:10.440 good. Yeah. They're laying these stumbling blocks before these young women or others,

00:50:16.920 laying these stumbling blocks in front of them and saying, it's okay to sin against God and offer

00:50:21.060 him profane worship, even though your conscience is telling you otherwise, because they're saying

00:50:26.420 we're more important to you than your conscience and the God of your conscience. So you brought up

00:50:32.760 a really good point that the law drives us to Christ. And then whenever we come to Christ,

00:50:40.660 the gospel then tells us, it sends us back to the law, the law that's in the hand of Christ.

00:50:48.040 it sends us back to the law, the third use, and it says, these are the good works that you should

00:50:53.120 perform. So the laws of our land actually should tell the women the good works that they should 0.97

00:50:59.600 perform and the good works and the works that are evil works that they should never perform. 1.00

00:51:05.500 So protecting your child is a fulfillment of the sixth command, but killing your child

00:51:12.900 is a violation of the sixth command.

00:51:16.480 So the good work would be to protect your child. 1.00

00:51:21.180 The evil work would be to kill your child. 0.99

00:51:23.860 And the laws of our land should tell them 0.99

00:51:26.460 what those good works are.

00:51:28.380 Amen.

00:51:29.380 All right, Jacob, let's do this.

00:51:30.700 As we're starting to land the plane,

00:51:32.220 you and I have been talking offline,

00:51:33.840 you've been kind of just,

00:51:36.680 well, you've been, you know,

00:51:38.080 your typical abolitionist.

00:51:40.300 The typical abolitionist on our men's thread

00:51:42.180 with our church it's like every day jacob is just boom and he's and he's great about it he's like i

00:51:47.400 know guys like i don't even show up to all these events it's you know it's it's ridiculous but this

00:51:51.380 matters it's a really really big deal but let's get real particular because i i've got a feeling

00:51:55.420 we've got some people who are already on board i know there are a lot of people that listen our

00:51:59.380 channel that are abolitionists and then i got by god's grace i hope some people have been won over

00:52:03.960 by this point in our conversation wow you guys are making a good point that's biblical that's

00:52:07.900 true. I want to be on board. So what are some practical, what can we practically do? Especially

00:52:11.940 we've got a lot of listeners, Jacob and Dusty that are here in Texas. And so I'd love to hear

00:52:17.060 from you, Jacob. And then we've got listeners in Oklahoma. So maybe we can land the plane by

00:52:21.340 Jacob, you talk, Dusty, you talk and tell us with, with bills right now on the ground,

00:52:26.960 who can we call? Who can we write to? What do we do? Yeah. So in Texas for four straight sessions,

00:52:33.980 Now, we only have a legislative session once every two years.

00:52:37.600 So if they choose to not abolish abortion for a session, they sacrifice that 19,000 children for two years.

00:52:44.780 That's 38,000 children.

00:52:47.380 So the way that a bill works is a bill is filed and then it gets assigned to a committee.

00:52:52.560 And in those committees, the chair of the committee, and this is just Texas politics.

00:52:56.860 It's a little different in Oklahoma. But in Texas, the chair of the committee has sole authority on whether he can bring the bill to a hearing.

00:53:05.760 And then even after that, he has sole authority on whether he can even bring it to a vote.

00:53:10.080 So he has all that power. So we have two bills.

00:53:15.460 We have the abolition bill in the House and then we have the abolition bill in the Senate right now, an equal protection bill.

00:53:22.680 So in the Senate, the Speaker of the House has been fighting off a lot of Republican grassroots who are trying to tell him to not ban Democrat chairs.

00:53:33.620 And one of the reasons why is because Democrat chairs get the power to kill bills completely.

00:53:38.680 Wait, hold on. So you're saying Republicans in Texas have been encouraging the Speaker of the House in Texas to not get rid of Democrat chairs because we need at least some Democrat chairs to be the head of these committees.

00:53:51.800 Maybe I misspoke the other way around.

00:53:53.600 Okay, say it again.

00:53:54.420 Start over.

00:53:55.040 Say it again.

00:53:55.840 Yeah, so the Republican grassroots is telling the Speaker to not put Democrat chairs in place.

00:54:03.860 So we're already past that, right?

00:54:05.620 There's a place during the session where they can write rules about how you can do or not do things.

00:54:11.780 Anyways, he opposed the opposition to that.

00:54:16.820 And ironically enough, he placed our bill in one of the few committees that has a Democrat chair.

00:54:26.800 So immediately it's gone.

00:54:29.600 So immediately it's gone.

00:54:30.920 Well, there's some things that can be done.

00:54:32.560 For example, if you can call the speaker and he can reassign it to a different committee.

00:54:38.200 His number is 512-463-1000.

00:54:44.180 That's his capital office.

00:54:45.640 what's his name

00:54:47.400 his name is Dade Phelan

00:54:49.600 that's P-H-E-L-A-N

00:54:52.000 Dade Phelan

00:54:52.980 and you're going to hear

00:54:55.760 things that

00:54:56.780 there's objections and stuff

00:54:58.800 if you ever hear any of that

00:55:00.660 you can

00:55:01.060 contact Abolish Abortion Texas

00:55:04.920 through emails or Twitter

00:55:07.420 or whatever else and they can help you with the objections

00:55:09.420 so that's

00:55:11.620 kind of the only action there because

00:55:13.400 there's no way the Democrat chair is going to

00:55:15.640 not kill the bill. In the Senate, this is the first year that we've ever had a Senate bill.

00:55:21.900 And they sent it to the State Affairs Committee. The chair of the State Affairs Committee was the

00:55:27.800 guy who authored the heartbeat bill last session. His name is Brian Hughes, and his number is 512-463-0101.

00:55:38.600 And the same thing, just ask him to give it a hearing. That's all we're doing.

00:55:41.680 We're just asking him, give SB-2198 a hearing.

00:55:48.620 That's it.

00:55:50.140 Great.

00:55:50.920 Dusty?

00:55:51.460 So, yeah, in Texas on April 1st down at the Capitol in Austin is a rally.

00:55:59.620 I don't know if – you know about that, right, Jacob?

00:56:02.840 Yeah, yeah, the rally.

00:56:04.160 Yes.

00:56:05.200 We'll look at the information about that.

00:56:06.600 You can talk about it a little bit.

00:56:07.700 Guys can go to that.

00:56:09.140 But I was invited to come speak at it, but I am not able to make it for various reasons.

00:56:16.840 But I would encourage folks to go down there and see what's going on.

00:56:21.100 In general, when we think about action, actionables, we should think in spheres and

00:56:28.180 order a more a ordering your loves.

00:56:31.020 So that means there's a proximal way to take action.

00:56:36.040 And that proximal action is first, you think in the sphere of your home, in your own family, and then your relatives, who can I talk to to share what the difference is and what it truly would mean to extend the love of God towards my preborn neighbors to fulfill the second greatest commandment would be to treat my neighbor as I would want to be treated.

00:57:02.320 And that's to fulfill the royal law, to love my neighbor as myself and to treat them as though I would want to be treated.

00:57:09.380 To do that, I must demand their equal protection under law.

00:57:14.360 So tell your tell your family and then you can go to your church and you can start talking to them.

00:57:20.360 And then you can go and talk to your civil leaders or the folks at your work.

00:57:24.500 And some of the very helpful resources for that is the Rescue Those app.

00:57:29.760 Rescue those.

00:57:30.520 Just look it up on your app store, whether that's Google or your Apple app store.

00:57:36.820 Rescue those app.

00:57:38.120 There's a whole lot of resources there.

00:57:40.400 You can go onto YouTube and look up A Storm Comes Rolling Down the Plain.

00:57:46.000 A Storm Comes Rolling Down the Plain.

00:57:47.400 That's a documentary that myself and a couple of other folks wrote and produced. 0.73

00:57:53.280 It will be very helpful to helpful to show you the distinctions between the pro-life establishment and how they approach the issue of life and this modern Holocaust of abortion that's 10 times greater than that of of Hitler's.

00:58:08.280 Uh, and then, uh, you can, you can really, an important thing is you can go to, if there

00:58:17.200 are mills in your state, abortion mills, then you can go on the sidewalks.

00:58:22.080 You can talk, reach out to somebody, whether that's Abolish Abortion Texas or, or someone

00:58:27.440 through Rescue Those, or there's other groups, reach out and see, you can look on our app

00:58:33.340 and search your area and it will tell you where the abortion mills are.

00:58:38.280 but find someone to go with yeah the it was so it was april 1st at 10 30 that's when it is

00:58:45.460 saturday april 1st at 10 30 uh sorry to interrupt but i also just wanted to firmly second the app

00:58:51.700 the app is incredible if anybody it has their interest peaked on any of this uh the app has

00:58:59.200 like almost every abolitionist resource in existence there and even lists upcoming abolitionist

00:59:05.780 events on there. I mean, they put a lot of hard work and dedication into putting really, really

00:59:12.780 good, helpful resources and thinking through this stuff. So I just wanted to second the app

00:59:17.400 and then mention that the rallies on Saturday, April 1st at 1030 at the Capitol.

00:59:23.480 Yeah. And folks need to educate themselves as well. It's a lot to take in initially. And so

00:59:31.080 that app will provide talks and sermons. Uh, it'll also, you can look at booklets that, that will

00:59:38.220 educate you on, am I an abolitionist? What does it mean to rescue those that are being led off to

00:59:42.720 slaughter? Uh, I wrote a booklet on in vitro fertilization and so-called ethical in vitro

00:59:48.620 fertilization. Uh, I'm hoping to produce a booklet in the next month or so, uh, on abortifacient

00:59:55.600 birth control and abortion pills. There's been several updates in the law, so that will be

01:00:00.780 coming as well. Great. I've done an episode on the hormonal birth control pill, and I've also

01:00:08.300 had Cali on, and we did one in vitro. And so I've done some of that on our channel, trying to

01:00:14.900 address that as well, because that's just another area where I think a lot of Christians, not 1.00

01:00:18.480 necessarily malicious, but just ignorant. People don't talk about it. And just lastly, 1.00

01:00:25.720 you can go and preach the gospel at these abortion mills or on campuses or around public spaces. And 0.54

01:00:34.320 one of the things that we do at the abortion mill is we do three things. We preach the gospel.

01:00:38.360 We plead with these women not to murder their children. And if they won't do that, either way,

01:00:44.020 we provide real help to them, whether that's adoption of their children or any medical or

01:00:51.120 physical needs that they might have. We want to see that baby rescued from being taken to slaughter.

01:00:57.520 And you can talk to your legislator and tell them this is what God's word says. You shall not murder

01:01:04.280 and you need to love your neighbor as yourself and give them equal protection under the law.

01:01:10.900 That is a life. And if you're a Christian, you affirm that and you know it. Very simple

01:01:17.540 conversations with them, but they need to know those things from us.

01:01:21.880 Right. Amen. All right, Jacob, any final word from you?

01:01:25.240 No, that's it. Thank you.

01:01:26.300 That's good. All right, guys, thanks so much for coming on the show. And for everybody listening,

01:01:30.240 I hope that you've been challenged by this. We want to do justice. We want to, I mean,

01:01:34.840 the name of our show is Theology Applied. We don't want to just talk about theology in the abstract.

01:01:39.940 We don't just want to talk about Jesus ruling and reigning in the 17th dimension somewhere

01:01:43.860 out there.

01:01:44.740 We believe that Jesus is king now and that Jesus is king here, all authority on earth

01:01:49.960 and in heaven, and that Jesus, King Jesus, has a law, and it's not something that we

01:01:54.820 get to make up as we go along, and that law should be righteously and justly applied with

01:02:00.700 equal weights and equal measures across the board for all.

01:02:04.960 And so I hope that you guys have been challenged.

01:02:06.900 Check out the app.

01:02:07.740 Check out the resources that have been cited.

01:02:09.340 Check out the documentary.

01:02:11.360 If you're available, go to the Capitol and join the rally.

01:02:15.400 A lot of good takeaways from this.

01:02:16.980 You might need to rewind and listen to the dates of everything and the name of the app.

01:02:22.020 What was, one more time, the name of the documentary that you said, Dusty?

01:02:25.200 A Storm Comes Rolling Down the Plain.

01:02:28.020 Cool.

01:02:28.780 Yeah, I want to check that out.

01:02:29.660 Thanks, guys, for tuning in.

01:02:31.480 Thank you, Jacob and Dusty, for joining us.

01:02:33.920 I appreciate it.

01:02:35.060 Thank you, Joe.

01:02:36.460 Can I be frank with you for just a second right here at the end?

01:02:39.340 look some of you guys you're financially supporting this ministry and from the bottom of my heart i say

01:02:45.340 thank you i cannot thank you enough however some of you you just you can't afford it in fact some

01:02:53.480 of you you shouldn't afford it let's be honest i mean we're living in joe biden's ridiculous economy

01:03:00.460 our nation and our totalitarian political elites lost their minds over the last three years due

01:03:09.180 to COVID. We have written checks that we simply cannot cash. It doesn't matter if people change

01:03:16.000 the definition of a recession. We are living in a recession right now regardless. Some of you are

01:03:23.200 struggling to afford a carton of eggs at the grocery store. You cannot support financially

01:03:29.460 this ministry at this time, nor should you, but you could still help us tremendously. I am asking

01:03:36.680 you, please, if you're willing to do so, take one minute of your time. Leave us a five-star review

01:03:43.700 on your favorite podcast platform, iTunes, Spotify, whatever that might be. This is the way the system

01:03:50.700 works. We want to be innocent as doves, but shrewd as vipers. We need to be strategic. You leave us a

01:03:58.160 five-star review, and our podcast shows up for more people. And the Word of God and courageous

01:04:04.740 theology applied in practical ways to every realm of life gets out there.

01:04:11.340 Help us get it out there.

01:04:13.040 Thanks for tuning in.

The NXR Podcast - March 28, 2023

THEOLOGY APPLIED - Ending Abortion ｜ Incrementalism Vs. Abolitionism ｜ with Dusty Deevers and Jacob Miller

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