In this episode, Pastor Joel interviews Becca Merkel, author of the book, "Eve in Exile: A Biblical View of Feminism," about the dangers of feminism at the local church and in the culture.
00:00:00.480Applying God's Word to every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied.
00:00:11.800Hi, welcome. This is Pastor Joel with Right Response Ministries and our show slash podcast called Theology Applied.
00:00:18.860This evening, I have the privilege of having a guest, Becca Merkel, on our show.
00:00:23.860And we're going to be talking about biblical womanhood. We're going to be talking about feminism.
00:00:27.500We're going to be talking about the rise of feminism and some of the dangers at the local church levels and also just in regards to the culture.
00:00:35.020But I want to go ahead and give her a moment to introduce herself and specifically to tell us a little bit about a book that she wrote called Eve in Exile.
00:00:44.320So, Becca, thanks for coming on the show.
00:00:45.740Tell our listeners a little bit about yourself.
00:06:35.980societies are built by uh families you know and and by you know men who have families to feed i
00:06:42.640think doug wilson said that recently on man rampant and i think that's i think that's good
00:06:47.500and it's it's a i think it's a shame that it has so much of a negative connotation today
00:06:52.800and weirdly i would probably say the same thing about feminism because it's not like i'm opposed
00:06:59.980to femininity and it's not like i'm opposed to the feminine in fact i think we should embrace
00:07:05.180the feminine it's just that like that word has been now kind of pretty well spoiled for us
00:07:09.720by the people who grabbed it and and used it as their that's a great point because true feminism1.00
00:07:16.700you you would love the problem is that feminism is actually often masculinity in women it's not1.00
00:07:24.420it's not feminine and if it was actual femininity and in the way that god describes the beauty of0.91
00:07:30.380femininity, we'd be all for it. So, okay. Well, let's go ahead. I'm sorry. No, I was going to
00:07:36.500just agree that at the sort of metaphysical level, that is what the universe is, is a patriarchy. So
00:07:42.400of course, that's, it's hard to, it's hard to escape, you know, even 2021, you know, you read
00:07:51.080the Bible and you, unless we're going to do some exegetical gymnastics, it's pretty, pretty clear
00:07:56.120that you know so anyways um so that being said could you give you know because everybody talks
00:08:00.680about feminism and you hear a lot of pastors and in the conservative you know kind of reformed
00:08:06.240christian camp you know talking well feminism is bad and i might even be one of those pastors and
00:08:10.960so maybe you could even educate me just what what what's the history not just the definition but
00:08:16.160what's the history of feminism because it seems as though it's come in different waves and each
00:08:20.560one is distinct from from another and i know that you've gone into length with this and so could you
00:08:25.160help us just understand maybe the history of feminism and where they were right? I'm sure
00:08:29.980that they were right maybe on a few things and then where it got off the rails. Could you take
00:08:33.660a moment and do that for us? Yeah, sure. Without my notes, so I might be hopscotching around here
00:08:41.520a little bit, but really the first kind of proto-feminist, I mean, we're talking about
00:08:49.340the 18th century i mean she was uh mary woolenston craft um although i might have put an extra n in
00:08:58.160there woolston craft um she was an english woman who was really around the same time as jane austen
00:09:07.040and she's called a proto-feminist because she um they weren't using the word yet right so she's1.00
00:09:14.840kind of like a little before her time but she wrote a little tract called um vindication of
00:09:19.460the rights of women so she's being kind of resurrected like there's been a lot of talk
00:09:25.280about her lately um i saw a lot of stuff going around about her and whenever the women's day was
00:09:33.260i don't know lately wasn't there national women's day was i thought i thought they got a whole month
00:09:38.500a whole you know black history month and now i think i think there's a women's history but i
00:09:43.180think there's a day also i really keep up with this i thought every day was women's day you know0.72
00:09:48.100so yeah so she was a um i mean she's referred to as a proto-feminist but now she's kind of
00:09:55.360you know the hero and she she went over to france to help with the french revolution
00:10:01.420so like that's what we're talking about there so she was very much a revolutionary um and
00:10:08.300And that's really what feminism has been from the very beginning as she was, she was over helping in France right through the reign of terror and everything because, um, a number of the kind of romantic poets in England went over to help, but then they got kind of like scared and disillusioned and came back once it hit the reign of terror.
00:10:25.280And she stayed. She stayed for the whole thing. And anyway, so she wrote Vindication of the Rights of Women. And then, you know, fast forward to the mid-19th century, really pre-Civil War, I believe, was Seneca Falls.
00:10:41.700It was right in the middle of the 19th century. And that's when there was the first kind of like that was the birth of the feminist movement, as we think of it. And of course, initially, at that very early stage, the two twin causes were votes for women, and prohibition of alcohol.
00:11:00.940so it actually was a very funny um strange bedfellows really i mean because you had the
00:11:07.520temperance movement and the women's right to vote and in fact that's kind of why they wanted the
00:11:12.140right to vote was so that they could um enact prohibition which they did do so the the prohibition
00:11:20.040moment in america was really brought to us courtesy of those you know first wave feminists0.98
00:11:27.780And so it's interesting to me that, um, that actually seems kind of much more uptight and straight laced than you tend to think of feminists as being. So as far as like votes for women, you've got Susan B. Anthony and, you know, like that whole movement and many Christians, I think now look back on them.
00:11:50.800and even the Christians look back on them as heroes when I think we ought to know better
00:11:55.740because it's like we can see where that brought us the not necessarily the issue of the voting0.99
00:12:01.920but the feminist agenda um Margaret Sanger is uh really kind of a first wave feminist1.00
00:12:09.700and she of course we know her famously for Planned Parenthood but her fight really was0.99
00:12:15.920birth control so it was like you had you had temperance you had or prohibition you had votes
00:12:22.780for women and birth control so margaret sanger's particular fight was um basically on that issue
00:12:30.020and we always talk about her as a abortion advocate because she did found planned parenthood
00:12:35.300and although that was always implicit and that was always kind of understood it was very much
00:12:40.840kept in the back of you know like we didn't that was not explicit at all um but birth control was1.00
00:12:47.300her big fight so that was kind of the first wave of you know feminism and it did span a long time0.82
00:12:55.140and it sort of covered you know those kinds of issues and then um the sort of world war two
00:13:03.120really caused the whole movement to come to a screeching halt everybody had other things to
00:13:09.020worry about and then we kind of came out of world war ii and and we got the 50s you know like that
00:13:15.040very um little wife at home very leave it to be you're very um you know everything is picture
00:13:24.060perfect and i think there's just a lot of stuff that was going on in america right then the rise
00:13:28.480of suburbia i think you have all these vets coming back and just wanting things to be normal
00:13:32.700and nice and not you know crazy and so you had this kind of weird moment where it was kind of
00:13:41.280like the feminist felt like they'd lost everything so it was like they had they'd made some kind of
00:13:45.780progress and then now we're sort of back to square one with this little stereotypical um you know1.00
00:13:52.960wife at home thing and then um Betty Friedan wrote the book The Feminine Mystique and that's the book
00:14:01.960that launched second wave feminism really and so there was kind of this weird pause
00:14:08.740and then second wave feminism launched and it was a very different kind of movement in one sense but
00:14:15.680it was deeply connected to what had gone before in another way so she wrote the feminine mystique
00:14:21.540and it was all just about like this kind of horrible sadness that all the housewives felt
00:14:28.220and this like aching emptiness and they're all taking antidepressants and it was all just
00:14:35.720meaningless and there was nothing fulfilling about being at home and you just you know and
00:14:39.820she just sort of articulates this terrible boredom with being a wife at home and it just
00:14:47.120exploded and all the women were like yes that that's how I feel and then we were off and so1.00
00:14:53.180um second wave feminism was all about women going out to work you know being in the workforce that1.00
00:14:59.820was how you're supposed to find yourself and fulfill yourself was by leaving your kids at1.00
00:15:04.520home and you go out and get a job because that's where you're going to feel fulfilled and you're
00:15:08.660not going to have this terrible sense of loss of self basically um so that's when you have
00:15:16.440women entering the workforce as a way of self-fulfillment as opposed to the kind of earlier0.96
00:15:21.680war effort you know because like in the war effort you have women who were doing the jobs1.00
00:15:26.400because somebody has to do the jobs but then in the second wave feminism um it was all about go
00:15:32.680find yourself and find find your true meaning out there somewhere else because home is like a0.68
00:15:39.800black hole you know like there's nothing to do there so then second wave feminism and then of
00:15:46.540course abortion and that's when roe v wade and everything else this so sort of second wave
00:15:51.580feminist heroes would be um gloria steinem is very second wave um and it's interesting because1.00
00:15:58.140third wave feminists i don't think even they know what they're for so they're it's like third wave0.97
00:16:04.480is kind of where we are right now and they've they've won every single battle basically like
00:16:08.300the feminists have seriously taken every hill they've tried to take and there's not really1.00
00:16:13.980anything left, but they're still miserable and unhappy. So they have to continue fussing about1.00
00:16:17.720something. So now it's kind of LGBTQ rights or something. Like, I don't even think the third
00:16:25.040wave feminists know what they're trying to fight for, but they're still very upset.1.00
00:16:29.460So real quick, just for our listeners' sake, you referenced, you know, in first wave,1.00
00:16:37.800Margaret Sanger kind of being on the end of that. So at first it was prohibition and it was
00:16:43.960women's suffrage vote. And then Margaret Sanger, it sounds like you placed her on the end of that
00:16:51.660first wave. We know her from abortion, but being a big advocate of birth control. And then with
00:16:58.340that second wave, then you really nailed down abortion. So both in terms of birth control with
00:17:05.000Margaret Sanger and then also with abortion later on in the second wave, could you explain to our
00:17:10.760listeners, what does that have to do with women being empowered? I know what it has to do, but
00:17:15.580some people don't, they don't connect the dots. So what is a woman being able to stop her body0.99
00:17:22.640from procreation or being able to abort a child inside of her body if the birth control fails0.69
00:17:28.880as a 100% fail safe of birth control? Because that's all abortion really is in my understanding
00:17:36.580is like we have birth control and then we have birth control really effective birth control yeah
00:17:42.200yeah so what does that have to do with women being empowered i think that it's clearly been
00:17:48.480um a target from very early on um because even in the first wave of um you know even like you
00:17:59.180know pre-20th century i think it was quite clear that there's nothing that will drop an anchor on
00:18:07.240your dreams and aspirations more thoroughly than having a child right because um a man can father
00:18:16.000many children and never even know you know like he's not in any way bound or tied down by it if
00:18:23.640there's no marriage covenant he can just go merrily on his way and never know how many kids he has
00:18:28.840not true for women right i mean you can't have hundreds of children and not know you can't have
00:18:35.400one child and not know and then there you are left with the child and this is like a lifetime
00:18:41.520commitment right so so i think that that is has always been seen by the feminists as deeply unfair0.97
00:18:48.040you know that it's why should i have to sacrifice my whole life when he gets to go over there and1.00
00:18:54.940continue um chasing his dreams you know um and somebody has to take care of the kid and of course
00:19:01.620that's going to be the woman and so there's always been this sense of this is so unfair and that's0.94
00:19:07.740been a real dominant theme of the feminist from the very beginning is this kind of I don't know
00:19:14.200it's like the whiny kid on the playground who's always you know complaining that nothing is fair
00:19:20.340and that everybody else is i don't know it's just a very it's not a winning attitude but
00:19:25.320that does feel like it's the it has been the refrain of the feminist from the very beginning
00:19:30.560but it is absolutely true that um children most definitely tie you down and even if you decide
00:19:38.940to get rid of them um it's the woman who's left with the guilt it's the woman who's left with
00:19:45.000you know whatever the repercussions are of what she decided to do and so um obviously God's
00:19:52.160solution to this is marriage so uh I mean the inequality is no longer there but if you're
00:19:58.620going to have a kind of like a lifestyle of immorality it is very true that the men get0.86
00:20:04.040away with a lot and the women don't and so um I feel like God solved that by well and I saw
00:20:12.040lately it was hilarious wasn't um feminists were getting all wound up about something and I saw0.75
00:20:17.560somebody I can't remember who it was tweeting um it was some actress and it was like if women have
00:20:24.580to stay home and take care of the kids then the father should have to too and somebody was like
00:20:30.200congratulations you've just invented marriage I mean because it was like the biblical model is
00:20:36.900It's like, yeah, the man also assumes responsibility for his children and everything.0.92
00:20:41.320But if you take that out and if you want immorality, it is true the consequences fall on the women.0.97
00:20:46.600And I think they were wanting to have it both ways.0.98
00:20:48.920They didn't want to have to submit to marriage, but they also didn't want to have to submit to just the way the world works.
00:20:55.380And so birth control and abortion are basically the way out of that.
00:21:01.800Yeah. In order for a woman to actually be equal in that sense, there's one big distinction between men and women. Women have babies and men do not. So you have to find some kind of method, some kind of way of women to ensure that women don't have babies in order for them to be just like men.0.95
00:21:19.260Do you think with, you know, this third wave of, well, I guess it would be second wave, but the second wave of feminism that, you know, the house, the desperate housewives, right?0.78
00:21:30.140I'm sitting at home drinking Chardonnay at 10 a.m., you know, and just bored out of my mind and, you know, maybe should have had more babies.0.56
00:21:38.200But, you know, that's just my thought.
00:21:40.120But anyways, but you're bored, whatever.0.59
00:21:42.360You said earlier that home is like a black hole.
00:21:44.080It's not fulfilling. And work, even though work is, you know, men and women are both called to work.
00:21:49.260It's just where men are typically going to be working out of the home.
00:21:52.280Women are working very hard in the home. But but if you don't see that work is fulfilling, you don't feel like there's any significance that comes from that.
00:22:00.980You know, and then there's this push like, well, I got to be able to pursue a career outside of the home in order to be equal to men and to find fulfillment.
00:22:07.960Do you think in that I talked to one of our other guests, we had Aaron Wren on the show and I talked to him a little bit about this.
00:22:13.720and I'd like to get your take as well. With women exiting the home and just families in general
00:22:19.980having less children or no children, men and women both working, don't you feel like employers
00:22:27.220have kind of like just loved that? Like they can get away with paying less? Like the idea that as
00:22:32.440an employer, I've got to pay an employee enough to support a family because they're a one-income
00:22:37.240family now. Like that kind of the assumption is, you know, if a man says, well, this isn't enough
00:22:42.840to i'm working really hard but it's not enough to provide for my family and the employer's response
00:22:46.640would be it never was supposed to be enough to why isn't your wife working i did have you do you
00:22:53.120have any thoughts on that well i mean i have no idea about the data but that would i mean that
00:22:58.420makes sense um because it has become so pervasive that of course that's going to leave a mark on
00:23:04.880the economy that's really interesting and i just i haven't it just seems like that used to become
00:23:10.020the mark, like, obviously, some jobs are just they were never meant to feed a family, right? So if
00:23:14.240you work fast food, and you're demanding, you know, $50 an hour, it's like, well, like, you're
00:23:18.940not supposed, we're not against you making $50 an hour, you just don't get to make $50 an hour here
00:23:23.840for flipping burgers, you know, have some ambition and work, you know, and maybe maybe you can do it
00:23:29.040here as you know, a manager and owning a store one day and franchising whatever. But, but, um,
00:23:34.820you know, like, there's, there's this push for, you know, well, we've got to make more money and
00:23:38.420all that kind of stuff but back in the day you know there were still jobs like the burger flipper
00:23:42.540or you know the person bagging groceries but it seems like there was in the 1950s it seems like
00:23:46.940there were still jobs that weren't uh this is a job to to feed a family this is kind of a a high
00:23:52.760school job or something but then it seems like like like for career type jobs it seems like
00:23:58.100financially the benchmark in determining wages was the cost of living for a family whereas now
00:24:04.160I just don't feel like that's even on the radar for most businesses of like, what does it cost to, you know, a modest home with a mortgage, you know, and feeding children.
00:24:12.840And I just don't think it doesn't seem like companies or employers think that way anymore.
00:24:17.500Like it's not like because we've handed over, we've said, well, we don't want marriage and we don't want children and we don't want families and we don't want our wives to stay at home.
00:24:32.800I mean, I think in many ways, I mean, you almost feel like feminism is such a win for the men that it had to have been a male plot the whole time.
00:24:46.280Then we just get to abdicate responsibility.
00:24:50.100It's kind of like, I don't know, you can sleep around as much as you want.
00:24:54.220Nobody's ever going to make you marry the girl.
00:24:56.080You know, like there's no consequences for that.
00:24:58.260You don't have to step up and take care of anybody.
00:25:01.840you don't have to take care of her or the kids or if you do get married and she demands the right
00:25:06.620to go out and have a job so that now you can afford to buy a boat so like I I don't know I1.00
00:25:12.480just feel like the whole thing is is so hilariously not in the women's best interest1.00
00:25:18.580that it kills me that they appear to be dumb enough to have gone for this you know idea but0.98
00:25:26.200sadly it was the women who drummed up this great plan so right well when yeah you're right when0.98
00:25:33.640you I mean when you compare it like that it's like all right now you're gonna have to work so
00:25:38.000that I can have these extra things and I don't have to take care of children and I don't even
00:25:41.360have to have commitment to you and it definitely sounds like a win for the men so it makes me0.70
00:25:45.340think the only way that women found it as a win for women was in comparison to be being having to
00:25:51.700be married to that man. So men must have, in order, you know, if men did kind of were the
00:25:57.240architects of feminism for their own, you know, getting to, you know, get rid of responsibility0.98
00:26:02.640and have a, you know, a free day and all that kind of stuff. I feel like the only way they
00:26:06.560could have talked women into it would, would have been just, uh, lying around the house and just1.00
00:26:10.520being such a, such a pain to live with that women were like, you know what, maybe marriage isn't0.94
00:26:16.420that crazy. I do think that like the whole prohibition thing, um, was the women, I think1.00
00:26:23.000they were really motivated by a lot of drunk husbands. I mean, like, I really think that was0.88
00:26:27.960the sort of impetus for it is they were like, we need somebody to stop the madness with the
00:26:33.660drunkenness that they were having. Someone's got to protect us. And they didn't feel like the men
00:26:37.860were doing that. That makes sense. I was going to ask you that earlier. I'm glad you brought that
00:26:41.020back up okay so moving forward now so we got a little bit of the history of feminism and different
00:26:46.660waves and what it's progressed into and now it's kind of like we don't even know what women are
00:26:50.540necessarily fighting for because it seems like they've already won everything anymore so it's0.97
00:26:55.800very hard to know what we're fighting you're right that's it yeah that's a really good point
00:26:59.980so all that being said catching up to you know modern day and then you know kind of taking a
00:27:05.940more of a focus on the church and not just the culture at large. Um, what are, what are some of
00:27:11.300the ripple effects or maybe they're not ripples? What are, what are the tsunami effects of feminism
00:27:17.520on the church today? Could you give us a practical example of, of, of how there's a negative impact
00:27:23.420in our evangelical churches? Oh man, I think it's so pervasive that I don't think, I think many
00:27:30.980people have incredibly feminist assumptions and have no idea that they do because it's so in the1.00
00:27:39.540air we breathe and it's so pushed in your face everywhere in every possible venue i mean the0.50
00:27:46.560propaganda is relentless on this subject and i think honestly i feel like there was a pretty
00:27:53.280rigorous campaign of cool shaming the christians you know or the people who wanted to hold to a
00:28:00.560more traditional view. And I think we bought it. Like, I think, I think Christians got embarrassed
00:28:04.860about trying to articulate a biblical position. And so we just kind of tried to keep that quiet
00:28:12.480and to ourselves so that it wasn't quite so embarrassing to say out loud. And I think it's
00:28:18.200a very short time. I mean, you do that, you just kind of turn the dial down a little bit and maybe
00:28:22.980don't say it quite so loud and not maybe into the microphone. And it just takes that before
00:28:28.380everybody forgot what you were trying to say you know like it's just it's gone I feel like the next0.99
00:28:33.700generation you know just has bought it completely I think um Christians with their kids in government0.83
00:28:41.240schools is a major part of this um because of course that's what they're going to be taught
00:28:47.580you know all day long every day for 13 years growing up so of course that's going to be
00:28:53.980their assumption, and I think that there, I don't know, I just think there's been a sort of a slow
00:29:01.720creep, or maybe not so slow of a creep, of just buying into the feminist argument, and then
00:29:10.320thinking that, you know, well, I call myself a complementarian, and so that must mean that I'm
00:29:15.260fine, where you don't actually realize how many things you've taken on board that are just these
00:29:20.780really poisonous assumptions I think it's really truly everywhere like it feels like it's really
00:29:27.200pervasive and like I said at the beginning I think that those same poisonous assumptions
00:29:32.920infect the ultra-conservative crowd as well like I think that they have taken it on board they've
00:29:39.020believed the feminist lie and then they've just embraced it for some reason where it's like you
00:29:43.800have this lie about women that the feminists have told and then a bunch of patriarchalists1.00
00:29:51.980believed it and then said yeah that's what we're about women don't need a brain and women don't1.00
00:29:59.220need an education and yeah all the woman is for is having babies and making sandwiches0.99
00:30:03.180yay that's what we're about and and that actually is the feminist stereotype and the thing is is it1.00
00:30:09.600was always a lie but it's like some of the conservatives didn't quite notice and then they
00:30:15.000just decided to own it you know so that's what i mean about them sharing the same assumption so i
00:30:21.240think the the feminist lie is actually really in it got into everything so and i think it really
00:30:28.720weirdly is even in the patriarchalist camp so so i got yeah so the ultra you're saying the
00:30:34.660ultra-conservative patriarchal person and the I am woman hear me roar feminist from you know are
00:30:41.180they're both they both actually bought into the lie just to for clarity's sake the lie being that
00:30:45.900being a woman is unfulfilling insignificant boring dull right is that the lie that you're getting at
00:30:52.760yeah or I would say not not being a woman but um embracing sort of a biblical
00:30:58.320you know perspective function role of women role of women um that's so so being a wife
00:31:07.020and being a being a mother and those kinds of things yeah and they don't see it as a high
00:31:12.800calling at all they see it as like i mean i've met guys who i mean i just couldn't believe that
00:31:18.580they would say these things out loud but they would say well my daughters don't need an education
00:31:23.020because they're never going to have to get a job because they're just going to get married and have
00:31:25.740kids and as if like being a mother is this brainless occupation that doesn't require anything
00:31:32.880you know like like it just feels like the most minimum wage job we could find and so why should
00:31:40.980i give my daughter anything really in particular she doesn't like i remember one guy saying his
00:31:46.140daughters never needed to learn math because he was like because you know i was so mad but i was
00:31:51.680Well, because if they do know math and their daughters – well, if a daughter – we all know if a daughter does learn math, then they're a witch.0.91
00:31:59.880Any woman who – I'm just kidding.0.99
00:32:05.120So I get – so you're saying the ultra-conservative and the feminist, they both bonded to this lie about the womanly role, feminine role, and the ultra-conservatives just said, yeah, we'll take that.
00:32:19.000We'll put our – we'll slap our name right on that.
00:32:20.700where you know like yeah it's it's uh you don't have to have a brain it's a menial task and uh1.00
00:32:25.860we're for it and the feminists the only difference is they're saying yeah you don't have to have a1.00
00:32:29.660brain it's a menial task and we despise it and that's really the only but they're both they're
00:32:34.320both buying into right so that's why i feel like it's a really weird uh it's a really weird
00:32:40.820assumption that they both share it's just it's purely an emotional response to it like the the
00:32:46.520ultra patriarchalist type says yes that's what i like and the other one says get me out of here but
00:32:52.820that's an emotional response but they actually share the same assumptions about reality about
00:32:58.600the calling of a woman um in in that specific role in a family got you that's what you were
00:33:05.480saying all the way back at the beginning i understand now you're saying they both agree
00:33:08.200on the content the tenets of yeah of you know the argument but but one the difference is emotional
00:33:16.420And the other one is, you pig, how could you?0.91
00:33:18.740And so one thing that I've noticed, and I want to see what you think about this, if you can affirm this, and if you have any thoughts on it.0.93
00:33:26.580But one kind of very practical effect that I've noticed in the evangelical church today from what I would say is an effect of feminism and an effect of, I'm sure, plenty of other things also, but is that we still love femininity in the church.
00:33:44.200whenever we see it in men and we love masculinity whenever we see it in women. So, so whenever,
00:33:50.700you know, you see a young girl and it, and the practical effect is, um, is, is the way that we
00:33:56.240disciple kids. Um, it's, it's the, uh, and, and not just the way you you're discipling young boys
00:34:01.700and discipling young girls. Uh, but then also, you know, uh, the way that adults, you know,
00:34:07.240brothers and sisters in Christ are treating each other. And, you know, like if there's,
00:34:11.520if there's a man who's assertive, now he could be a jerk, he can go too far, but let's just say0.99
00:34:17.600he's just, you know, he's just a strong masculine man. Very often he's going to be, you know,0.98
00:34:25.300he's going to be pulled aside and talk to you about how he really needs to be gentle.
00:34:29.980And Jesus was meek and mild and he needs to be gentle. And then if a woman though is gentle,
00:34:35.140the same thing we're encouraging this man to be more like, to have more of this gentleness and,
00:34:41.080you know, quiet spirit, you know, and, but if a woman is like that, she's probably going to be0.70
00:34:45.940pulled aside and be encouraged to think more for herself, to be more ambitious, to be more assertive,0.98
00:34:50.980to be more, more type A and to speak out. And so what I've noticed is like, if we came up with just,
00:34:56.640if we were to sit here, you know, you and I make a list of 10 traits that we would say are feminine
00:35:03.040and 10 traits that were masculine, I'd be willing to bet that in the average American evangelical
00:35:08.820church, if we just got rid of the top two labels where it says femininity and masculinity, and we
00:35:16.100just took the feminine traits and said, would you want your male pastor to embody these traits? I
00:35:22.940think they'd say, yes. And then if we took the masculine ones and just took off a label where
00:35:27.900it says masculine and took those traits and say, do you want the young women in your church to be
00:35:32.740discipled um with an emphasis on these things i think they'd say where have you been let's get
00:35:39.220you at the next conference circuit would you agree with that absolutely i mean everybody wants women
00:35:45.300to be fierce you know all over the town you have to be fierce but nobody wants a man to be fierce
00:35:52.600and in fact fierce in a man would be incredibly like that's insulting i can't you know that you
00:35:58.980would call a man fierce as a insult you know you're being way too fierce or you know whatever
00:36:03.920but yeah absolutely I think it's it's uh very noticeable how much that's the case yeah we would
00:36:11.940want women to be competitive like in uh not necessarily with each other nobody likes that0.91
00:36:17.640very much in a church but you know what I mean if she's like ultra competitive and um going after0.99
00:36:24.100it in the corporate world or whatever everybody would be like you go girl and they'd probably0.95
00:36:29.180pull the man aside and say he's not spending enough time with his wife or something you know
00:36:35.200like it's this very you're right I think we we definitely are watering the weeds and weeding out
00:36:41.600the vegetables and yeah yeah I think you're right so with that being said you know you and I both
00:36:48.260believe that God calls not all men but some men who are biblically qualified to be pastors and
00:36:53.540that he does not call women to be pastors.
00:36:57.100So pastors, I think that's part of the problem is if pastors are men,
00:37:04.500but pastors aren't just, right, the male elders of a church,
00:37:08.120they're not just pastors of half the congregation.
00:37:10.800It's not like we're the pastors of the men, and then we have our women's ministry,
00:37:14.080and that's how you get, you know, the leader of the women's ministry
00:37:16.960becomes a pseudo-elder in the church over half of the congregation,
00:37:20.060namely the women, and it gets divisive. And then all of a sudden, you know, like husbands and wives
00:37:25.400start having, you know, problems and dissension in their marriage. And it's because the women's1.00
00:37:29.380leader and their male pastors who are abdicating that responsibility. So we believe that, you know,
00:37:33.760God calls men to be pastors. I know we've talked about this before. And I know that you would
00:37:38.520agree that God calls those pastors to pastor the whole flock and not just half of the flock. So I,
00:37:44.380you know, if I'm a pastor, I'm the pastor of the women in my church, as well as the men. And so
00:37:48.700what is something that male pastors can do to combat some of these unbiblical expressions and
00:37:58.140effects of feminism in their local churches? Right. Well, that's kind of a funny, it's kind0.98
00:38:04.740of a funny question in that, because I don't think women ought to run the church. I also don't think1.00
00:38:11.480the women ought to be bossing the pastors around about what they ought to do. But that said,1.00
00:38:15.580I do see things that you know pastors are doing um where I would think the one thing is don't be
00:38:23.500scared of the women because I think that's kind of what motivates this a lot of the time
00:38:28.820is they're they're scared of the backlash because I do think that when women get offended
00:38:37.360it definitely is a gift that keeps on giving you know I mean like it's just really hard
00:38:44.800to get through that and i think there are some pastors that are gun shy about it because they
00:38:49.760don't want to upset the women so i feel like that's kind of the first thing would be to not
00:38:56.560be scared of them but i think kind of paired with that there's a version there's the kind of like
00:39:02.620um i don't know the beth more kind of women's ministries thing where it sounds like that's
00:39:09.420kind of more what you're describing where a woman who's so dynamic and she's just got all the women
00:39:14.320eating out of her hand and then they kind of tend to go off in a direction that's not great um from
00:39:21.460you know authority perspectives um there's that but i think there's a really funny other version
00:39:28.240of it which is where um you have people on the other side of the fence they're not likely to go
00:39:34.480that way but they still want to call in a woman to do the dirty work for them of telling them not0.97
00:39:42.260to be feminists sort of if this makes sense I say this like what like what I'm doing right now
00:39:47.320is that is that what you're hinting at no I think I think that it is like trying to trying to outsource
00:39:56.060the the message because if it comes from a woman then they can't accuse me of you know being a
00:40:04.420whatever misogynist or something and so I I have seen that before where it's like it's this funny
00:40:11.960thing of like we believe that men should be the pastors but then you get the woman to go out there
00:40:17.020and say the inflammatory thing and then you know the pastor's like you go girl um preach it sort of
00:40:24.060and that's this kind of like that's what i mean about not being afraid of the women and i think
00:40:29.360that if you have godly women they actually want to have teaching you know from yes a male pastor
00:40:37.540and they want it to be biblical and they want it to be convicting and you know they want to confess
00:40:42.420their sins and they want to be growing in faithfulness so it's not insulting to women
00:40:47.260you know what i mean like it actually shouldn't be insulting to women to preach on feminine sin
00:40:52.980um not that that should be every sermon but you know what i mean like i but i do feel like like
00:40:58.740paul is very clear about saying and women you need to do this and men you ought to remember that
00:41:04.380and I think that many churches are very comfortable preaching against the men
00:41:09.520really you know like hard teaching for the man hard teaching for the men but then whenever
00:41:15.080there's anything difficult to say to the women they just don't want to go there but the thing
00:41:19.500is it's like a godly woman wants that and she wants to hear that and so I think if you have
00:41:26.260a congregation full of women who won't hear you then that just shows you you've got a really
00:41:31.840deeply unhealthy congregation so um it it could be ugly but but you know what i mean about trying
00:41:39.640to get the woman to be the hit man for you sort of like i totally i totally know what you mean
00:41:43.880sort of pastors who would never preach on it from the pulpit so what they'll try to do is
00:41:49.060is like see if they could get the women to organize a book study somewhere so that they
00:41:55.260could kind of yeah you know what i mean where there's that kind of plausible deniability
00:41:58.640or something right and then the but the problem is that the pastor by doing that he's already
00:42:03.580defeated himself and not and not really just himself but more importantly he's defeated the
00:42:08.820word of god he's already basically what what's communicated in that is that the ultimate authority
00:42:13.180doesn't rest on the word the ultimate authority it's not the message it's the messenger and so
00:42:18.240we've already you know that same kind of logic you know well i mean it's just completely uh in
00:42:23.700contradiction to you know what paul would say for instance to timothy let no one despise you
00:42:27.560because of your youth. Yes, there's something to be said for being qualified, able to teach.
00:42:32.520And I think more often than not, growing in an ability to teach the Bible does often come with
00:42:39.700things like experience and time and wisdom. So, you know, you can make an argument from prudence
00:42:45.940and a practical argument that more often than not, nine times out of 10, an older man is going to be0.99
00:42:52.900probably a better Bible teacher and therefore more authoritative, but he doesn't bear more
00:42:59.540authority, for instance, than a younger man by virtue, merely by virtue of his age. It's only
00:43:05.060because with that age, that particular man used those years to know the Bible. The authority is
00:43:11.140always coming from the Bible. And so whether it's old versus young or, well, that guy can't speak
00:43:15.740to marriage because he's single, you know, like, well, what do you do with Jesus and the apostle
00:43:20.180Paul, you know, and, and, and in this particular case, we're talking about, you know, whether
00:43:23.880it's old versus young or married versus single, we're talking about men versus women.
00:43:28.320And so I think when a pastor does that, I, I, I think that's one of the problems that
00:43:32.180I see is that he is, he is subtly and, and without words, he is subconsciously discipling
00:43:39.960his congregation, both the men and the women, um, that, that ultimate authority in the church
00:43:45.000of God comes from something else besides God's work. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a huge,
00:43:51.600a huge problem. And what you were saying about the, you know, the backlash from the women and1.00
00:43:56.040those kinds of things, I completely agree with you. And I think part of the problem is, you know,0.99
00:44:00.200the pastor, you know, we know that the antidote to the fear of men or the pastor who's struggling
00:44:06.080with the fear of women, you know, but the fear of man, the antidote to the fear of man is the fear
00:44:10.900of God. And so sadly, I think part of what we see is we see many men in our pulpits today who don't
00:44:15.640fear God. And so we need pastors to grow in the fear of God. But I think that's part of the
00:44:21.980solution is pastors don't be afraid of the women in your church and preach courageously. But then
00:44:28.360also part of the solution is those women's husbands. It's not all just the pastor. Part of
00:44:33.280the reason why I think pastors are afraid is because they know that there may be some women
00:44:38.520in the church who, you know, are going to react and be frustrated and disgruntled, and they suspect
00:44:48.380that their husbands will not deal with it. Absolutely. Well, I think that's what I mean by
00:44:55.840if you have that legitimate fear that I can't, I can't preach on that because the women will all1.00
00:45:02.940whatever that's what I mean about you have a wildly unhealthy congregation because you can't0.97
00:45:09.920have that situation without it meaning that you have a really kind of diseased bunch of family0.91
00:45:16.320units all together because you can't have all the women react to something like that and have1.00
00:45:22.600everything be good at home you know so I think that's absolutely true that it has to be the
00:45:28.520husbands as well and I think too like having a high view of women because um I think that the1.00
00:45:36.600whole feminist thing is so patronizing of you know so patronizing to women and so like have1.00
00:45:43.020the expectation that the women in your church can handle stuff like that you know what I mean like1.00
00:45:48.260because to act like you have to treat them with kid gloves and you have to tiptoe around them and0.76
00:45:52.480you have to walk on eggshells and never say something that might ruffle their feathers like0.85
00:45:58.120that's actually a really insulting view of women that like they can't handle it if somebody says
00:46:04.760you know it's sadly true but we should be better than that and I feel like um expect more you know
00:46:12.860of the women and the ones who really are hungry for truth and they want to pursue righteousness
00:46:18.120they will rise to that they really will but um we live in such a victim happy culture that you know
00:46:25.700You could just have people convicted of emotional abuse just for reading what Paul wrote, you know, like, it's just, yeah.
00:46:35.340And so I think having a high enough view of the women in your congregation that you can do it without talking down to them, you know, which is what I really think this is.
00:46:48.820Like when you act like we're such a tender, vulnerable group over here that we want, we can't bear to hear a man speak to us.
00:46:57.560It has to be a very emotive woman who's going to come alongside of us and hold our hand.
00:47:02.580Like that's so embarrassing. And it's just, it's just such a low view of, of women and what women are capable of.0.94
00:47:10.640And I think the women's ministry, the whole women's ministry thing can perpetuate this, this view that we're like this perpetually needy group of people who never managed to get out of that state.
00:47:28.780Like we're always needy and we always have to be ministered to.
00:47:32.500And it used to be that women's ministries were the women ministering, you know, it's like the women who were feeding people.
00:47:40.080the women who were clothing people, the women who were, they were producing and they were giving,
00:47:45.340and they were a part of the church body in that way. But now women's ministries means0.93
00:47:49.220all the women in the church are apparently this basket case that needs ministering too.0.90
00:47:54.840So we all have to cluster around and, and, you know, monitor them 24 seven.1.00
00:48:00.220And I just feel like that's, it's just a sad view of women.0.99
00:48:04.660Yep. I agree. I remember your sister saying the very same thing, saying that women's ministry1.00
00:48:08.940used to be women ministering shoulder to shoulder work, right? And then women's ministry became
00:48:15.180all about women ministering to each other face to face. And just kind of like, we're just,
00:48:22.060you know, we're just telling each other what we want to hear and oh, you poor thing. And,
00:48:26.820but you're right. I think it is patronizing. I think it is demeaning that it almost is kind of
00:48:31.300like, um, just a barely a step up, if even that from like children's church. And I, and I know
00:48:37.300your your conviction you know with family integrated worship and that that would be my
00:48:40.860conviction as well um but i think i i like there was an article that john piper wrote advocating
00:48:45.840for children being um in church right because i mean that's if i if i said the conviction as
00:48:51.080simple as possible you know people like well explain to me why are you against children's
00:48:54.620ministry and i said my conviction is very simple i think that children should go to church that's
00:48:58.560it because when we ship them off to another room that's you know it's it's a christian child care
00:49:04.000you know and there might be a christian lesson and it's run hopefully by christians you know but
00:49:08.280it's not church because because the bible is very clear about what church is the church is
00:49:12.460uh the ordinary means of grace are being administered on the lord's day there's the
00:49:16.640lord's supper we're preaching the word publicly preaching the word publicly praying the word
00:49:20.820publicly singing the word and public publicly seeing s-e-e-i-n-g the word in the sacraments
00:49:26.340of the lord's supper and baptism and if our children aren't a part of that then you know
00:49:30.660we wonder why they fall away from the faith. Um, and part of it is maybe because every Sunday
00:49:35.100morning we sent them somewhere else other than church. And now that they're 18 years old,
00:49:39.080they're actually going to church for the first time in their lives and they never got to go
00:49:42.740with mom and dad. So anyways, Piper wrote an article on that. And I think he has like nursery,
00:49:46.700kind of like a hybrid kind of thing, which I would be fine with, but about four years old,
00:49:51.280I think at Bethlehem, you know, um, that's when the, okay, you know, it's time, it's time to go
00:49:55.860church. And so with, with that, he wrote an article because it's, you know, it's a foreign0.86
00:50:00.600concept for American Christians in our evangelical world today. It's like, well, our kids can't sit
00:50:07.180through a sermon. Our kids can't do this. They can't do that. And Piper, you know, it was really
00:50:11.600good. He said like, there are some, some things that, that we have child, like a child version
00:50:17.200of, you know, where it's like, all right, that child's not ready for this. So we give them that,
00:50:22.680you know like like food right like you know six months we're going to give them avocado and we're
00:50:26.940not going to give them you know a a medium rare steak you know and so like there are some things
00:50:31.860where it's like we give but then there are other things in god's world that he created that there
00:50:36.240is no child version of there's and i love this it was he said there's no such thing as children's
00:50:40.660thunder right there's not like here's adult thunder yeah and for kids here's children no
00:50:47.160there's just thunder and and if you're four years old the beauty is like all right you're you're
00:50:51.880going to get the same thunder that mom and dad are going to get, but you can get it while
00:50:54.880you're, while sitting in mom and dad's lap, you know, and, and, and, and, uh, but, but
00:50:59.680it's, it's, it's, uh, there's just these things that are, they, they strike awe in our hearts
00:51:06.600And, and, and if, if thunder, you know, is one of those things, and certainly, um, the
00:51:11.080word preached and the word, you know, should be one of those things that the, you know,
00:51:14.680the weekly Lord's day thunder from Mount Sinai, the mountain shakes and the kids of Israel
00:51:20.240there and they witness it and mom and dad hold them tight you know and but it's good for them0.87
00:51:25.100to be there so all that back to women my point is the women's ministry like now praise god i'm not
00:51:31.280aware of any church that like does it as a substitute for sunday morning where like the
00:51:35.300women go into another room but but it's it it it can be kind of like hey um here's here's big boy
00:51:42.740church and, and here's this, you know, this, this dumbed down, you know, uh, softer, sweeter thing
00:51:52.140for you. And, and I, so I'm saying all that to say, I agree with you. If I, if I was a woman,
00:51:56.900I would probably be offended by that. I think I would find that offensive.
00:52:01.740It really is. It really is. And the thing is, is that Paul is also clear that older women are
00:52:06.860supposed to teach the younger women, some things like, I don't think the pastor needs to get in
00:52:12.420the weeds to talk about meal planning you know like he doesn't have to he doesn't have to patronize
00:52:18.080in that way either right i mean he teaches from the pulpit on the you know the things that pertain
00:52:23.860to the flock but he does say you know like older women teach the younger woman this calling that
00:52:29.680you have like you know like this is something that you can learn from other women and stuff
00:52:33.940so there's it's not like women aren't supposed to go off you know and perfect their craft it's just
00:52:40.400that that's a it's a very specific thing it's a very practical thing that he's telling the women
00:52:44.760to teach the younger women which is interesting too to me because it kind of presupposes that
00:52:50.240this is not just a no-brainer and everybody knows how and oh my gosh you know what could you ever
00:52:54.880find to do it's like this is actually something that you can learn you can get better better at0.97
00:52:59.560and so forth and of course go to the older women for that kind of advice don't go to your pastor
00:53:05.820for that. I'm glad you said that because Titus 2, a lot of times we use that in the American0.84
00:53:13.540evangelical church to say, well, there's a precedence for women teaching women. So, okay,
00:53:17.300so a woman can't teach men, but women can't teach women. But what I think we miss, and you just said0.93
00:53:22.820it, is Titus 2 talks about women teaching women, but it talks about women teaching women particular
00:53:28.520things. And so we take that to just say like, all right, like we're going to have this separate
00:53:33.720women's event where a woman teacher is going to come in and teach theology proper, you know,
00:53:39.680or teach on the Trinity or teach on, and not saying that a woman couldn't do that. Um, but,0.96
00:53:43.860but my thought is just what, why, why, why can't the pastors of a church, when I think of theology
00:53:49.360proper, I think, I think that the proper context for teaching about, you know, the, the, the nature
00:53:55.060of God and the, you know, that, um, would, would be the pastors of the church and, and that they
00:54:00.620would be teaching that to both the men and the women so when i think of like so what is a separate
00:54:05.680context you know where women need to be be specifically taught something that that it
00:54:11.400doesn't make sense to have the men there it's it's it's the specifics it's not theology proper
00:54:17.160it's not the gospel now now a woman could say and this is how the gospel works into this you know
00:54:22.180but but it is some of the things that like like what you're it's it's how to love your husband
00:54:26.720how to love your kids meal prep things things like that and it feels like talking shop is what
00:54:32.300that seems like you know and and i do think that some some of the titus 2 stuff can start to get
00:54:39.180um it can start to get very meta because you have you have like women who get together with
00:54:46.720the lexicons and they're going to unpack the greek and we're going to talk about the cultural context
00:54:52.500we're just talking about the nuances of this and what are the implications but like that's super
00:54:58.300weird because what the verse is actually saying is hey i'm going to teach you how to make strudel
00:55:02.860you know or whatever like come over and i'll teach you how to make homemade pasta or something and so
00:55:08.720it's kind of like you know we studied everything about the verse except for what the verse actually
00:55:14.320meant you know what i mean like it can just start to get you get this whole thing where it's like
00:55:19.720swirling around the actual issue but at no point in there are the older women actually teaching the
00:55:24.840younger women the actual specifics of what paul said to teach you know and it's for the very
00:55:30.500for the very reason that you mentioned at the very beginning of our episode
00:55:33.960um it's because we we think that those things don't have value like that that's that's why
00:55:40.240like because i'm just thinking you know put trying to put myself in the shoes of of you know one of
00:55:44.780our listeners as you're saying like you know meal plan or strudel and i'm just thinking like the
00:55:49.420the average person in the church, including men,
00:55:51.820because I find myself even doing it like kind of cringes like, Oh,
00:55:54.780don't say that Becca. Don't, you know, like that's, that's,
00:55:58.660that's demeaning to women when it's like, no, I'm demeaning women. I,0.94
00:56:03.160you know, by saying, by saying that the,
00:56:05.180the time and the effort that's spent in creating a home and,
00:56:09.320and nourishing children and making meals. And that like, that I,
00:56:15.080you know, even in my heart, I still, there's, there's a,
00:56:17.800there's a part of me that said, well, don't say that because, because, um, people find that
00:56:21.740offended, offensive. Well, they shouldn't find it offensive. It's incredibly valuable work.
00:56:25.620I know. And it's, it's very funny to me because everybody kind of recognizes the importance of,
00:56:35.160um, you know, like a food culture, you know, like, like everybody thinks it's so amazing.
00:56:42.100If you go to Tuscany and you experience the regional cuisine of whatever, and,
00:56:47.180you know like it feels very cool everybody wants to have an Italian grandma who makes this
00:56:52.180incredible whatever and we all you know everybody like knows that but at the same time like we've
00:56:59.040lost it completely in our own culture and we have to travel somewhere else to get it or I mean just
00:57:05.500as a random thing I think it's really weird that now like regional cuisine would be dictated by
00:57:13.140restaurants and not by moms at home you know like if you think about places like italy or whatever
00:57:20.540where they have centuries of tradition here um and yeah you know what i mean like this has been
00:57:28.180going on long enough that i know about this right now because i'm throwing a a dinner party on
00:57:33.880friday which is the different courses or different regions of italy so i have been looking into this
00:57:38.760there's there's a pasta sauce that is like specific to this one village near rome and it's
00:57:44.640been this for a thousand years and there's huge controversies over whether you can put an onion
00:57:49.860in it okay it's like this is a whole thing and and that is something that is uh was developed
00:57:58.860in the home this is women who were making these things or you know like the specific noodle shapes
00:58:03.540that are specific to that region or the other one or you know whatever but this is something that0.94
00:58:08.000the women made and the women created and they made something very powerful that everybody would0.98
00:58:13.700want to go and experience right but like here um if if you travel anywhere in the states and they
00:58:19.580say oh hey you need to you definitely need to taste what we do here it's going to be chick-fil-a
00:58:25.480or something it's going to be like you know what i mean like right like it is it is it's become
00:58:31.300industrialized and it's something that like where in america would you have a regional cuisine that
00:58:37.380is something that was came from the home in a home i mean it's just not that's a really interesting
00:58:43.340point i i didn't even think about that yeah and it's sad thinking like if we don't if we don't
00:58:50.360redeem that thinking like about my children or grandchildren like you said you know everybody
00:58:55.800knows about that italian grandma but our children won't you know like if if we don't get that back
00:59:03.880All right. Well, great episode. I really appreciate your time. Let's go ahead and wrap up. Could you just tell our listeners how they can follow you, how they can keep up with your ministry, what you're doing, and maybe even recommend, I just thought of this as you were talking, what's a good practical book, a good cookbook or something like that that you could recommend if we have some women listening and they're like, man, I want to get into some of those things.
00:59:30.340So could you tell our listeners how to follow you and how they could get on that track?
00:59:36.040Okay, so, well, I, gosh, I'm on Facebook and Instagram, but I rarely post.
00:59:42.900But, you know, I'm there, just Rebecca Merkel.
00:59:45.280But I have a podcast with my sister called What Have You.
00:59:49.020That's probably where most of the stuff, you know, comes out.
00:59:53.160And I apologize in advance to anyone who listens to it.
01:04:08.740It's, and, and you see like, this was a ton of work and it's, and it has immense value
01:04:14.960and and so yeah absolutely i think it is an incredibly powerful tool and i think that it
01:04:22.120is not i mean if i was the devil i would have wanted to get women to abandon their posts because
01:04:28.200i think it's incredibly potent and i think it's potent for the gospel i think it's potent for the
01:04:33.100next generation and i think that that has been done very effectively like over the last century
01:04:40.480I think that women have walked away from something that could be incredibly formative.
01:04:46.360And I think if women would go back to where they were supposed to be standing and do what God told them to do with a cheerful attitude and deciding to own it and deciding to throw themselves into it rather than doing the bare minimum and feeling ripped off, I think that that is a massive tool for the gospel.
01:05:16.220Well, so let's go ahead and conclude this episode.
01:05:20.500Like I told you before we started recording, we have an incentive for our club members.
01:05:24.620And so if you're listening to the show and you're not one of our responders, that's what we call our club members, we would love for you to become one of our regular monthly supporters.
01:05:33.560This is how we're able to continue putting out good, biblically faithful content like this.
01:05:38.420And this particular show, Theology Applied, our goal is not just to exegete a text of scripture and keep it in the abstract, but to apply theology and to every single area of life.
01:05:49.860We like Francis Schaeffer and his seven mountains, not just the church, not just the home, but also the civil sphere and also education and the market and vocation and all these different things.
01:05:59.900And so we want to be really practical.
01:06:01.500I think this episode was a great example of that.
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01:06:18.520And the question that I'm going to be asking Becca is this.0.99
01:06:22.320Titus 2 speaks to the importance of women working at home.0.96
01:06:25.180We've discussed that a little bit on this episode.
01:06:26.860But could you provide some simple principles for women who are considering working outside of their homes to ensure, like in some capacity, could you provide some principles for those women who are considering working outside of the home to ensure that this decision does not cause them to be in contradiction to scripture or does not cause them to compromise their primary duty in the home?
01:06:48.160I know that you, Becca, you work outside of the home in some capacity, teaching at school.
01:06:53.160And so I know that there's a framework for that in your view.
01:06:58.020But could you give us some practical wisdom for that?