The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - Feminism Thrives Most In One Place： The Church with Rosaria Butterfield

00:00:00 In less than a year, our podcast has gone from an average of 10,000 downloads a month to 50,000

00:00:05 downloads. What made the difference? You leaving us a five-star review. The more positive reviews,

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00:00:17 Jesus Christ. Help us press forward the crown rights of King Jesus by leaving us a five-star

00:00:24 review on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks. Feminism has been a stubborn stain on the fabric

00:00:30 of our society and our culture for decades. Now, by the grace of God, feminism appears to be dying 1.00

00:00:36 a very quick and painful death, but not at the hands of faithful ministers in the church of

00:00:42 Jesus Christ. But rather, feminism is being killed by a radical leftist ideology known as 0.82

00:00:49 transgenderism. Ironically, and tragically, feminism still thrives, however, but only in 0.81

00:00:56 one location, the evangelical church. Tune in as Rosaria Butterfield joins the show to discuss the 0.99

00:01:03 problem of feminism in the Christian church today on this episode of Theology Applied.

00:01:10 Applying God's word to every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied.

00:01:19 In this episode, I'm very privileged to welcome to the show for the first time,

00:01:26 Rosaria Butterfield. Thanks for coming on.

00:01:29 Hey, thank you, Pastor Joel. I'm glad to be here.

00:01:31 All right. So let's go ahead and start with this. Most people are probably familiar with you,

00:01:35 and so I want to get into the meat of the content. But briefly, could you let our listeners know a

00:01:39 little bit about who you are?

00:01:40 Sure. Absolutely. I'm a pastor's wife. My husband is Kent Butterfield. He's the pastor

00:01:46 of the First Reformed Presbyterian Church of Durham. We are Reformed Presbyterians.

00:01:51 I am a mother, and I'm a grandmother, and I think this is maybe my 22nd year of homeschooling,

00:02:01 and I haven't always been all of those things. So I was brought to the Lord by a Reformed

00:02:09 Presbyterian pastor in Syracuse, New York, where I was a tenured professor of English literature,

00:02:16 my field is 19th century, along with women's studies and queer theory. And so my conversion

00:02:23 came with a lot of mess, because sin makes a lot of mess for people. And I have written about

00:02:33 my conversion to Christ in a number of books, and I have tried to faithfully live that out,

00:02:41 and I sometimes have, and I sometimes haven't. I think I'm probably most known for my repentance,

00:02:47 which is fine with me. I do think it's funny that public figures who are Christians who

00:02:53 repent of their sins, I find it strange that that's met with shock and awe, but we can talk

00:02:58 about what that means. But at any rate, that's who I am. I'm an older woman. I'm 61 years old.

00:03:05 And so the most recent book I've written is written to other women. And it's a firm conversation

00:03:13 that could be typified by let's get a grip. Okay, great. Well, so let's go right into it then. What

00:03:20 is the name? And if you could, I know you've got a copy. Could you hold up your latest book and

00:03:25 tell us a little bit about it i do have it right here it's called five lies of our anti-christian

00:03:31 age and it's published by crossway and it came out in september great what what are the five

00:03:38 lies can you list them for us yeah absolutely and i can maybe list the three reasons before

00:03:43 we get to the five lies if that's okay so um but i mean you know like every book has a story and

00:03:49 the story behind this book is a number of moms and grandmas who are writing to my website or

00:03:54 stopping me at Costco or stopping me at church, really confused about where the evangelical

00:04:02 church is in guiding us in this difficult time.

00:04:07 Our post-Abergefell world has put some real pressures on the church, and the church seemed

00:04:13 to be running the same play, and it was not working.

00:04:16 And so many of these people were writing with grief and sadness because their children,

00:04:21 who had once professed faith were now prodigals and yet their church was saying things like be

00:04:28 a soft presence you know why don't you check out this preston sprinkle video maybe we should humanize 0.93

00:04:34 transgenderism and they were you know like that that's the opposite of what i think we should do 0.93

00:04:40 and and so really the question which was posed to me is um why we can't major on the majors if we 1.00

00:04:48 don't even know what the majors are anymore. What in the world happened? And so I just sat down and

00:04:52 came up with three reasons that have produced five lives. And so the three reasons that we can't

00:04:57 major on the majors is because we have failed to recognize that the seeds of the gospel are in the

00:05:04 garden. Nature matters. No Adam, no Christ. The second reason is that we don't seem to know what

00:05:14 time it is. We don't, we either reject Aaron Wren's heuristic about being a negative world,

00:05:22 or we somehow don't think that the pressure of Obergefell and Boz Talk has, or even the

00:05:30 anti-bullying legislation, which is just a pro-trans, you know, ideology in your government

00:05:35 schools, that somehow that doesn't matter. And that works on this very strange notion that,

00:05:41 you know, because God's the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, you and I don't need to know what

00:05:45 time it is or what the weather's like. We just, and then the third reason is the one that's

00:05:50 probably most painful for me because I was the beneficiary of this particular kind of Christian

00:05:56 love. And that's that I had neighbors who knew how to love their enemies, not pretend their enemies

00:06:04 were their friends. And so those three just real failures of the evangelical church

00:06:13 have taken these five lies that have been in the world for quite some time now, some longer than

00:06:18 others, and they are now pretty central in most broad evangelical churches and in every parachurch

00:06:25 ministry I can find. The first lie is the lie that homosexuality is a normal sexual variant. 0.78

00:06:33 The second lie is that pagan spirituality is kind and inclusive, where biblical Christianity can be harsh and demanding.

00:06:46 The third lie is that feminism is good for the church and the world.

00:06:53 The fourth lie is that transgenderism is a normal gender variant for some people.

00:07:00 And you'll notice there that all of these lies, including the pagan lie, are dependent on a false distinction that feminism has put forward, and that is to distinguish sex, biological sex, from gender.

00:07:16 And then the fifth lie is that modesty is bad for women because it encourages patriarchy, and embedded in that lie is the idea that patriarchy is bad.

00:07:28 Right.

00:07:28 So those are the five lies. And, you know, I believed all of those lies. And I believed, I certainly, I believed and I advocated for those lies. When I was a lesbian activist professor, I was not just the lesbian next door. I testified before the New York legislature. I wrote books and policy. I have created, my fingerprints are still all over the sin that I see in this world.

00:07:55 So part of the tone of this book, part of the urgency of this book is I am saved, praise be to God.

00:08:03 I know that.

00:08:04 I'm confident in that.

00:08:05 But I'm also a grandmother, and I believe if you made a mess, you need to clean it up.

00:08:10 So I'm trying to do a little cleanup here.

00:08:13 And by cleanup, what I mean is not make myself look good, but just let the church try to give a good logic lesson.

00:08:21 Let the church see that some of, many of the slogans that are passing around for gospel kindness are really of the devil.

00:08:33 Right. Right. I'm with you on the clean up the mess. It's, you know, in the little book that I wrote, I had the same kind of thing saying there's, there's a fine line between penance, which is gospel-less, but versus, you know, the scripture talks about doing good works in keeping with repentance.

00:08:50 You know, so it's faith, you know, by grace, through faith in Christ alone.

00:08:55 But faith is never alone.

00:08:58 It's always going to be accompanied by good works.

00:09:00 And when it's, you know, the same, you know, the way in is the way on.

00:09:02 You know, the faith and repentance, you know, Luther, you know, talks about how the whole Christian life should be marked by a life of ongoing faith and repentance.

00:09:11 And so, yeah, when we make a mess, we clean it up, not as a form of gospelist penance, but we do it.

00:09:17 that's that's some of the fruit of repentance that when you can tell when someone is truly

00:09:21 repentant and not just worldly sorrow but has it possesses by the grace of god a godly sorrow

00:09:27 godly regret over the sin which they've committed they want to make it right that's what restitution

00:09:32 is that's you know to make the the person that we've offended the person that we've hurt

00:09:36 to make them whole um as best we can in this life and some things can't be made whole i like uh

00:09:43 I, I like, um, rush doing, uh, he, he said, um, when it comes to, you know, capital punishment

00:09:50 in the case of murder, um, because you can't make the person whole, um, you know, you've taken a

00:09:55 life. Um, and it's, it's such a grievous crime, uh, that, uh, the reason why it bears capital

00:10:00 punishment is because, um, it's something that, uh, the person has done something so egregious

00:10:05 that they have to be immediately transferred to a higher court. So, you know, there are cases

00:10:11 where we can't make it whole, but as best we can, by the grace of God, we seek to not to earn his

00:10:15 favor and not to somehow erase our past failures, but because it's the fruit of truly being

00:10:21 repentant. So yeah. So all that being said, let's, let's talk a little bit about feminism. I feel

00:10:26 like that's, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. I feel like there's a lot of feminism in 1.00

00:10:31 the church today. I, you know, I feel like it's kind of something that it's like two fish, you 0.92

00:10:38 passing by as they're swimming through the ocean. And one says, the water sure is nice today. And

00:10:42 the other says, what's water? Can you talk a little bit about ways, maybe signs of feminism 1.00

00:10:49 that you see in the church today? And especially, Andy Stanley, like you already said, you can pick

00:10:55 on him all day long, but I'm thinking maybe a little closer to home. Most of our listeners are

00:11:01 reformed Christians and they'd be going to, they wouldn't be going to Andy Stanley's church.

00:11:06 They would be going to an OPC church, PCA church, Reformed Baptist church, most of them, you know, reformed and confessionally reformed. And yet I see feminism there.

00:11:17 oh yeah oh yeah yeah yeah yeah and i also hear um and even some of the you know some of the 1.00

00:11:24 feedback i get on the book is well can't you say that feminism is sometimes good like like hey that

00:11:29 first wave that was looking pretty good wasn't it i mean do you so so it's interesting to to me the

00:11:35 way that we're tempted to look at maybe some of the symptoms of a movement that we like

00:11:42 and therefore apply a kind of welcome to the whole movement.

00:11:47 And that's just, that's a disaster.

00:11:50 But, you know, we can talk about the feminism chapter historically,

00:11:54 and I am a 19th century scholar, so I do love to go there. 0.77

00:11:58 Mary Wollstonecraft is the founder and the particular ways that the,

00:12:03 you know, the French Revolution and other things were bearing on this conversation.

00:12:07 That would be a long conversation.

00:12:09 I do kind of dig into that a little bit in the book.

00:12:12 But I think what I'd like to do to answer your question, to help people maybe see it in the church, is to think about the way that feminism introduced this idea that biological sex and cultural gender are really different.

00:12:27 They're just different things. They're different categories. And in philosophy, a category is important because it's got boundaries. It's almost like its own cell.

00:12:36 biological sex is um you know the creation ordinance women are born with the creational 1.00

00:12:42 power capacity to be nurturers who bear children but should that interfere with our sense of 1.00

00:12:51 gifting or calling why then we have we appeal to cultural gender and basically cultural gender 1.00

00:12:59 There was a category basically for feminism to go to war with progeny and patriarchy, babies and men. 0.99

00:13:09 And I think that we just see this everywhere.

00:13:12 And I think part of why we see this everywhere is this refusal to see that just in the same way that the Bible is a unified biblical revelation.

00:13:26 um god is is not going to create god does not create us with a with competition in our calling

00:13:35 um and so you know i certainly railed against this i mean at a certain point i was a single

00:13:42 woman who thought she was a lesbian reading the bible trying to make sense of genesis 127

00:13:49 And here's what I knew. I didn't see my actual self in it yet, but there was a little part of me that was downright thrilled. Could God be so loving that even I might be able to step into this creational capacity?

00:14:11 I mean, that was a crazy idea.

00:14:14 But the idea of the integration of the creation ordinance with your gospel life is key there.

00:14:21 Now, what's interesting to me is that, I don't know if you've noticed this, but feminism is dead, D-E-A-D, in the world. 0.84

00:14:31 Transgenderism killed it. 0.98

00:14:33 Right. 1.00

00:14:34 The only place I see feminism alive is the evangelical church. 1.00

00:14:39 Yep. 1.00

00:14:39 i mean maybe it's alive somewhere else and now somebody after seeing this podcast is going to

00:14:43 write in and say oh rosario really it's alive here under this rock but it's not it and it and how did

00:14:49 transgenderism kill feminism by taking its very central catechism there is a difference between

00:14:56 sex and gender and simply taking it to its logical extension what transgenderism is gender without 0.97

00:15:05 sex. So feminism created the capacity for its own death is what I'm saying. Now, the way you see it

00:15:14 in the church, usually from the, at least in my experience as a pastor's wife, is you will see it

00:15:21 in a fairly passive aggressive way. So in my church, we don't have, you know, nope, you're not

00:15:28 going to have women, you know, reading from the pulpit or something like that. But you definitely 1.00

00:15:33 can have women who are discontent, right? I mean, you can have men who are discontent too,

00:15:40 but that's not what we're talking about right now. We're talking about, and discontentment

00:15:44 is a sin. And it's usually a sin that's motivated by envy, by a sense of, but I should have,

00:15:53 but I could have, but my giftings are. And it needs to be dealt with lovingly, gently. And

00:16:02 as long as it is a private sin privately in a, in a, either a Titus two context or, um, when the

00:16:09 elders are meeting with families. Um, but it, it, you know, envy is rottenness to the bone. So when

00:16:16 we let it run, it's really serious. And I, I meet a lot of women who will say things like, Oh, I,

00:16:24 I wish I could come to your church, but I'm called to ministry. And so I have this calling

00:16:33 and I need a church who's going to give me a platform to do that calling. And that's not

00:16:41 why we do church. That's not why any of us do church. We do church to worship God and what we

00:16:49 bring to it are filthy rags to some degree or another.

00:16:52 Real quick on that point, one thing that I've noticed, and maybe I'm being uncharitable,

00:16:59 but it does seem like when it comes to women's ministries, that very often, I won't say always,

00:17:04 but very often, it seems that it's not about the women being ministered to, but it's a way,

00:17:12 especially in Reformed, more conservative churches, it's a way of creating a women's

00:17:17 only context so that one woman can LARP as a pastor while still holding her complementarian 0.97

00:17:23 card? 0.92

00:17:25 That's possible.

00:17:26 The way that, I love the way that our associate pastor, Drew Poplin, puts it.

00:17:30 He said, it's the only place in the church where there's no authority.

00:17:35 And so if you think about, like, there's no authority, so there are all kinds of things

00:17:39 that can happen.

00:17:40 So maybe somebody can LARP as a pastor.

00:17:43 definitely what i've seen are just opportunities for um um you know a kind of heavy heavy display

00:17:53 of emotion that and again with no authority there's nothing that kind of reigns it in um

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00:19:47 You know, so this is, I'm planting right now, we're two and a half years in, we're in Texas,

00:19:51 and I led a church in California and moved out there young, zealous, and immature and was not

00:19:57 qualified to plant a church. God was merciful. The church is still there. It's healthy. It's

00:20:01 doing well. They've started a classical school and things are great. But I bit off more than I

00:20:05 could chew. And as my wife and I started having children and then 2020 happened, we realized,

00:20:10 okay, you know, and her family and my family were both in Texas. And so, you know, I finally was

00:20:18 starting to wake up to maybe, you know, the urban church planting, like praise God if he sends some

00:20:22 people and they're actually called missionary is a legitimate biblical category. But for a while,

00:20:28 that's like, you know, you really weren't valuable at all unless you were a church planter and unless

00:20:32 you were going to do urban, you know, ministry, church planting in a very, you know, dark blue

00:20:37 county, city, state. And I really think in some ways, like we, I think in some ways it was a

00:20:45 suicidal mission. We spread ourselves too thin. And a lot of these churches, the cities that they

00:20:52 went into discipled the church more than the church discipled the sitting. And so, and so

00:20:56 anyway, so I was retracting from that, repenting from that, doing good works and keeping with

00:21:00 repentance, making changes. And so with the church that I'm pastoring now, one of the things,

00:21:04 you know, and I'm not having an extra biblical hard and fast world, but we're two and a half

00:21:08 years in. And so far, this is what we've done is I was like, let's just do all our energy,

00:21:14 all our time, all our focus on a full Lord's day. And so, and that's what we do. And we just,

00:21:20 we don't have any ministries, you know, and the churches and it's quickly went from, you know,

00:21:24 20 to 200 people. And so it's not just, I can't, at first I could use that excuse, you know, for

00:21:29 the first year or so, like, well, we're a church plant. What do you expect? You know, but now it's

00:21:33 like, well, no, it really is by design. And, you know, and, and I'm, again, I'm open to these

00:21:38 things and the elders will discuss these things perhaps in the future, if there's a ministry that

00:21:41 really serves the body, that really is in line with the scripture, but, but for the foreseeable

00:21:47 future. We're in no rush to have any midweek ministries. It's just the Lord's day. We gather

00:21:53 and, you know, we gather together and we have people, it's kind of, it's, it's funny. It's,

00:21:56 you know, we don't have wagons and horses, you know, but we have people because the church is

00:22:01 so discredited itself and so many churches closed for a year with COVID and you did this and did

00:22:06 that, that, you know, a lot of people are driving a great distance, you know, and so to get to a

00:22:13 church so i mean we we still have cars but a lot of people it's like we have people coming two and

00:22:18 a half hours you know to our church and um and and so with that it's like you you don't you can't go

00:22:24 to a small group on tuesday night you know so that's a i mean these people you know with one

00:22:29 family in particular wonderful family and their and their goal is you know they became members

00:22:34 because uh they were the children to baptize and things like that we wanted you know to be members

00:22:39 in the church even if you know lord willing that a church sprouts up that's closer to you then we

00:22:43 would you know go ahead and release you and transfer your membership over and that would

00:22:47 be wonderful but in the meantime with you know if we're going to baptize we'd like you to actually

00:22:50 be members of the church and um and so the two and a half hours and they're coming twice a month

00:22:55 you know and and then other families are driving an hour and a half and they're coming every week

00:22:59 but with that we're like why don't we just why don't we just stay all day you know and you know

00:23:04 and we're look we're wanting you know as i think about ministries it's all still in the lord's day

00:23:08 frame. I'm like, all right, so we have Sunday morning, Sunday evening. We've got a potluck

00:23:11 every, every Sunday evening. So, you know, and I'm thinking, all right, so, and then let's get

00:23:14 that afternoon prayer meeting. And then that Sunday school, you know, and then the, and you

00:23:19 know, in the, in the olden days, you know, the good old days, that's you, you were farming that

00:23:24 life was hard. You were, you know, it took you hours to get to church. You lived a couple of

00:23:29 miles from, you know, a mile from your closest neighbors, your kids, their best friends were

00:23:32 their brothers and sisters. And you're working as a family household industry was attached to

00:23:37 the household. But once a week, the market day for the soul, you rode into town, the delectable

00:23:42 hills, got a view of the celestial city, and it was a one-day event. And that's it. There was no

00:23:46 midweek things. And so again, not a hard, fast rule against all midweek things, but that's what

00:23:51 we're doing. And it's been such a breath of fresh air. Our people love it. And then outside of that,

00:23:56 all week long, we're focusing on this world. We're focusing on building households and businesses

00:24:03 and schools and we have men running for local office and being involved in you know all of

00:24:08 christ for all of life kind of thing so right right i think that um programs and slogans have

00:24:15 been the death of the church and um we're sabbatarians so we have a even a membership

00:24:22 vow about keeping the lord's day holy and that can be extremely hard to do if you know people

00:24:29 are like checking their watch, you know, as they're hearing the benediction and they're

00:24:33 out the door.

00:24:34 It's extremely hard to do for our singles who desire to be biblically married. 0.98

00:24:39 It's, and so we do the same thing.

00:24:42 We spend, we spend the day together at worship and prayer and Psalm singing at a fellowship

00:24:51 meal at the church, at a fellowship meal at our house.

00:24:54 I mean, it's a full, full day, and we've been able to just open our arms wide and draw other people into that, and so that's been a good thing.

00:25:05 We also do have, now we're not a church plant anymore, and we do have a midweek prayer meeting, you know, the Wednesday night prayer meeting, and it's just the old, well, it's interesting who goes to it.

00:25:17 It's like the young people, the old people, and then it's interesting, people who go to a local megachurch that are tired of the slogans and the programs.

00:25:31 And so pretty soon, my friend and co-author Andrew Brandt said, pretty soon, it's like we're going to be a small group of the so-and-so church.

00:25:40 Right, right.

00:25:42 So that's been a sweet time, too.

00:25:45 But no, I think that's exactly right.

00:25:47 And it's a wonderful way to honor the Lord today and keep that commandment.

00:25:50 Yes.

00:25:51 Yeah, and with the midweek ministries and then making them so particular for women and for men, it's weird that I've actually had to inform people in doing this, you know, carefully.

00:26:04 But in my preaching, I've had to inform the church.

00:26:08 The elders are not the pastors of the men only.

00:26:13 they are the pastors of the church um so so and and i think that's another thing that happens is

00:26:20 so one you create only women women only context so that a particular woman can function in some

00:26:25 kind of leadership role that's really questionable in biblical terms but still proudly being a

00:26:30 complementarian card holding individual but then i i also think that um what happens is that even

00:26:36 if you don't do it in word um you never label it this way in function she in you know a pseudo

00:26:42 capacity she becomes um it's like well this is my pastor so and so you know that so the the pastors

00:26:50 who preach on the lord's day they well those are the men's pastors but we have our own set of right

00:26:57 of pastors um and and that is i think you know massively problematic yeah yeah and i would say 0.87

00:27:05 I think women do need, especially in such a gynocentric world where, you know, I speak before, you know, school boards on the subject of transgenderism and parental rights, which is a, you know, that's a story unto itself. 0.66

00:27:18 But, you know, everybody there is a woman, right? 0.90

00:27:21 All the people in charge are women. 0.98

00:27:23 So we live in a world where most of us are used to seeing, you know, the women are ahead of the school boards and the women are here.

00:27:31 And so I do think, I think that as Christians, we need to learn how to submit to our pastor and our elders and learn to submit and trust to godly men.

00:27:47 And I think this kind of wholesale rejection of biblical patriarchy, I'm not super comfortable with the term complementarianism because I just think it—

00:27:59 I keep saying complementarian card.

00:28:01 Okay, okay, sorry.

00:28:03 And I wasn't rebuking.

00:28:04 I prescribed it to patriarchy, but go ahead.

00:28:06 Yeah, I just don't like it because it's not a biblical word, and it's a little too plastic for me.

00:28:11 But I think that part of the rejection of biblical patriarchy is, I think some of it is unfamiliarity.

00:28:23 And sometimes you really do just have to take a young woman aside or an older woman aside, a single woman aside,

00:28:28 and say, it's really going to be okay, but you're just going to have to, you're going to have to 0.50

00:28:33 submit to this. You're going to have to get a grip. This is really the biblical model and you're not

00:28:39 going to die and you're really going to learn something. And it's going to be really good

00:28:42 because we want the godly men in charge of the teaching because we need the godly men to kick 0.95

00:28:52 those wolves to the curb. And if they don't do that, then those wolves are going to be

00:29:01 infiltrating the weakest of us. And it's going to be really ugly. And I mean, this is, you know,

00:29:09 one wants to be careful about saying this, but in the years that I've been a pastor's wife,

00:29:14 It does seem to me that Satan's widest angle on a church body can sometimes be the most unhinged woman.

00:29:26 And that, so I do think that it is very important that the pastors and the elders, you know, we don't want that. 0.86

00:29:35 In that vein, I'm going to put you on the spot a little bit.

00:29:37 I'm curious what you'll say about this.

00:29:39 So I would prescribe to biblical patriarchs and people say, well, what's the difference?

00:29:44 you know, complementarianism, biblical patriarchy, why use patriarchy? It's, you know,

00:29:48 it's a pejorative or it's become that, you know, and it's got all these negative and, you know,

00:29:52 and I'm like, well, for one, I, a word that was coined in 1988, you know, that's, you know,

00:29:56 20 minutes old is, is, you know, that's not really that my preference. I'd like something that's,

00:30:01 you know, really old and, um, and rooted in history and scripture. Uh, but two, you know,

00:30:05 when, when you get down to the, you know, but what's the rub, what are the actual differences,

00:30:09 the distinctions. And one that I would say is from first Timothy chapter two, verses nine through

00:30:15 15, that when Paul gives his reasoning for male headship, he does not only cite the order of

00:30:23 creation, but he also cites the order of the fall. And he cites that, you know, the woman was

00:30:29 deceived and became a transgressor. And, and so when you read dead guys, you know, that guys who

00:30:37 lived before 1960 and the post-war sentiment and those kinds of, you know, you read 1900 years of

00:30:44 guys. I mean, it was incredibly common. Nobody was blushing or batting an eye. They would just say,

00:30:51 yeah, well, one of the reasons that a woman shouldn't lead is not just because men have 1.00

00:30:56 greater physical strength and that they can bench press and women have hips and they're able to 0.94

00:31:00 birth babies, but also, and this is hard for our world to do these days, especially on social media,

00:31:05 but I'm going to speak in categories, generalities. So we can find one woman who can

00:31:10 outbench one man. Likewise, what I'm about to say, we can find some women who could beat some 0.98

00:31:16 men in this. But in general, do you think that women are more susceptible to deception than men?

00:31:23 You know, absolutely. And I think you really see it played out right now in transgenderism. 0.96

00:31:28 Why is rapid onset gender dysphoria primarily a woman's problem? 0.90

00:31:34 And so you can talk about it in terms of, you know, what is deception?

00:31:38 Deception is a greater willingness to empathize with a point of view that isn't yours.

00:31:44 It's a greater willingness to receive and to welcome.

00:31:50 So there can be all kinds of very useful qualities to being that person.

00:31:57 but not if you're in the company of wolves so i think so that's so in the company of wolves

00:32:05 that is very dangerous to you and to everybody around you and i don't know any person who gets

00:32:13 up in the morning and says you know i'm really hoping that i'm going to tear my house down today 0.74

00:32:17 i'm you know on my list of things to do is let me destroy my house with my own hands or destroy my

00:32:22 church but um you know easily your your capacity for empathy can be turned and torqued in very 0.71

00:32:33 dangerous ways and we're seeing that in rapid onset gender dysphoria so anybody who would reject

00:32:39 that i would want them i i need then you to explain to me why this you know rogd is primarily

00:32:47 women like what you know what's going on there right that's really good to use a a current

00:32:54 example and statistics that they would actually have to be able to refute and then you know even 1.00

00:32:59 using biblical examples as you have the principle there in first sympathy two but then in terms of

00:33:04 case studies um like they creep into households and lead astray weak-willed women um that why are

00:33:13 the false teachers always male in the new testament and why why do they go after always the women and

00:33:20 that you know and again of course there are some exceptions but speaking in general rules um it

00:33:25 does seem as though the general strategy is uh false teachers a guy and he's going to try to

00:33:33 deceive a girl right yeah absolutely and about that other point you're making um you know this

00:33:40 the how did transgenderism become normalized like why in the world would even somebody as

00:33:47 as just dysfunctionally minded in his ability to handle a theological concept like Preston

00:33:54 Sprinkle even someone like that why would he recently do a program on humanizing the

00:34:00 transgender experience like what what is going on there well it is a not just a propensity but now 0.99

00:34:06 a virtue to make the anomaly the norm. And so that's the other thing that the church 0.99

00:34:16 has to be aware of. Christians don't throw people away. We do not throw people away.

00:34:23 We are not the people at school board meetings holding up pictures of mangled bodies saying,

00:34:28 this is an example of what not to do. We are the people who are proclaiming the gospel of

00:34:33 jesus christ that says god cannot be mocked the creative order is indeed ontological um

00:34:40 and the very good news of that is that even if you have tried to mock that created order and

00:34:46 you have gone through the whole you know battering of surgeries if you are a christian and you are

00:34:53 in christ and you have repented and you believe when your body is resurrected in the last day

00:34:58 you'll be the man you were meant to be right that is what christians say at school board meetings

00:35:03 um so we're not throwing people away but if you start to create a situation where you can't hold

00:35:11 the center because every anomaly renorms the norm that's where i just say please go go sell

00:35:20 insurance get out of the game just just you know i i'm sure we'd have a nice time at the bowling

00:35:25 alley but don't don't teach because this is this is really crazy and i think when you have

00:35:31 any kind of a new testament ethic or a christian ethic that that does you know unhinge the old

00:35:41 from the new what you're going to end up is a very theme-based christianity a christianity

00:35:46 based in slogans and nouns right but no resurrection power and and just and really

00:35:54 no ability to speak truthfully into the into the reality of what it means to be a person who knows

00:36:03 your indwelling sin, trying to fight it in the context of a world that has made it its reigning

00:36:11 idol, you know, and so we just have to be able to say to people lovingly, kindly, you know, 0.91

00:36:18 and 500 times if needed homosexuality is a deed of the flesh it is a sin of the flesh it's found 0.79

00:36:26 in the flesh it is forbidden by the law and it is overcome in the savior and and and that's true

00:36:35 whether you want to call homosexuality ssa or you want to call it sexual orientation i did you know

00:36:40 there are a lot of neologisms that we're going to pour into this but how do we liberate the captives

00:36:46 without giving them that truth but if you're somebody who who has to re-norm the norm you

00:36:53 just can't say those things right yeah everything these days comes down to the lowest common

00:36:58 denominator that's how our society you know continues to function and and it's all in the

00:37:03 name of empathy and there's always a few guys at the top who know what they're doing it's a

00:37:09 weaponized empathy but for most of the the public whether it be in the church or whether it be in

00:37:14 our body politic, you know, just our populace, most of the public, I think, you know, against

00:37:19 their better judgment is trying to be kind. They're trying to, you know, yeah, trying to be

00:37:25 kind. Can I just jump in here? Because it just, I, it's really funny when this happens at a school

00:37:31 board meeting and the whole school board, and they'll use this expression in Durham, which is

00:37:36 blue, blue, blue. They'll use this expression, you know, just hold space. Don't try to solve

00:37:42 problems and you know at some point i mean and i do i'll just ask you know you get you get three

00:37:47 minutes they have to listen to you but aren't you the school board aren't you here to fix the

00:37:53 problem of the school lunch and the math class that like you're here to fix problems and that's

00:37:58 the thing empathy can never fix problems right because that's considered almost in violation

00:38:05 of the standards of what um what helping means you've said this before you can't fix problems

00:38:12 you must, you're mandated to feel problems. Feel the problem, but don't actually. Have you heard

00:38:20 Doug Wilson and like Joe Rigney, The Sin of Empathy? Oh, yeah, I love it. And I think they

00:38:26 really get a bad rap because people aren't listening. They're not saying there's never

00:38:33 a time to empathize. And I'm not saying there's never a time to empathize, but I'm just saying

00:38:37 that's hardly the magic bullet. They get a bad rap as they talk about the sin of empathy,

00:38:42 because people aren't willing to be empathetic with those who say empathy is a sin. Isn't that

00:38:47 ironic? Well, but I think it is, I think that if you reject the concept of sympathy, you're

00:38:52 rejecting Christ. You're, you know, you're rejecting, you know, the gospel. They speak

00:38:56 highly of sympathy, compassion to bear with, but they distinguish that from empathy to suffer in.

00:39:03 yes and also yes exactly but ultimately jesus rescues the captives right right and and that

00:39:13 requires something that isn't empathy you're right yep it requires strength your feet are actually

00:39:21 firmly planted on the ground you got a hand holding onto the tree as you put the other hand

00:39:26 yeah jumping in the quicksand with the individual doesn't uh you can feel it but you can't fix it

00:39:32 so um and with that i like how you brought up you know so you're bringing up a reason you're saying 0.99

00:39:38 yes you answered my question you know in general is there a greater you know tendency for women to

00:39:43 be deceived than men and you answered the question by saying yes but you also gave the why you know

00:39:47 you said because of the way that god designed them it's not um that women are unintelligent 0.98

00:39:52 it's not that women are stupid but god designed women to be caring to be feeling to be empathetic 0.72

00:39:58 and in the right ways and maybe sympathetic um and so like you know i i think of you know 0.98

00:40:05 well when the the russia ukraine thing started you know um you know and now we've moved on to

00:40:10 israel and palestine but you know uh my how the time flies when we're trying to start world war

00:40:15 three but um you know when it was still ukraine and and russia and that was still the popular

00:40:20 thing um i remember there were like certain uh you know celebrity women you know who were uh

00:40:26 one of them wrote a poem and read it, you know, of, uh, if only I was Putin's mother, you know?

00:40:32 And I thought like, and I thought, well, you know, that, I mean, I like that. I appreciate

00:40:35 that in the sense that that makes sense. Like that is how, um, I think that is how God has

00:40:42 designed women to think not their only capacity, but that is a central theme and focus. Like I bet

00:40:48 Putin had a bad mom, you know? And so she, that's the essence of the poem. He probably just had a

00:40:52 bad mom. He needs a good mom. And I think that's all fine and dandy. I think it's better than fine

00:40:57 and dandy. It's wonderful. The hand that rocks the cradle, we need that hand. The problem though

00:41:03 is when that hand's not rocking the cradle, but when that person with that sentiment is a Supreme

00:41:09 Court justice, or when that person is a Senator, or when that person... And so then shifting gears

00:41:15 One more example, Kintaji Brown Jackson, you know, soft on pedophiles, you know, and I remember, you know, thinking about that, you know, and thinking, well, of course she is like, like her, I think her, her, her deepest, it's, you know, she's been designed by God to think, like, I want, I want to, there's something wrong here.

00:41:40 He needs love. He needs nurturing. He needs caring. Men are not that way. So men hear that there's

00:41:48 another man who has engaged in looking at, you know, pedophilic images. And for men, we say,

00:41:57 let's get some rope. Yeah, absolutely. Let's find a tree. And I think that's particularly helpful 0.96

00:42:05 when it comes to the position of the civil rulers.

00:42:08 That's not always the most helpful thing

00:42:10 when it comes to the three-year-old,

00:42:12 you know, on a Wednesday afternoon.

00:42:14 Like that little girl needs mom. 0.77

00:42:16 Right, yes.

00:42:17 But also that's where the church comes in too 0.99

00:42:19 because I think that when our temptation as women

00:42:22 is to really try to maybe empathize,

00:42:26 maybe even psychologize this,

00:42:28 find a reason that, you know,

00:42:31 we're just kind of fumbling around.

00:42:33 That is a wonderful time

00:42:35 to call the elders right that is a terrific time to say i am getting really um roped into something 0.75

00:42:45 and i kind of sort of think jl would just take a tent peg and you know rail it through the head

00:42:53 right now but i'm really seeing this from the wrong point of view i think i think that's part of 1.00

00:42:59 also the way women are designed is that we are more likely to play around with point of view 1.00

00:43:06 to just sort of say, well, if I see it, if I do this, if I do that, but that's when we need to 0.99

00:43:11 call, you know, if we're, if we're married, we call our husband. If we're, um, we're single,

00:43:16 we call the elders, we need some help in interpreting. And that's part of, that's a

00:43:22 body issue. Right. And to lay off the women and to point the finger at the men for a moment,

00:43:28 And I've noticed that if I'm honest, part of the reason I think we got into this problem is we, you know, you talked about like, you know, the anomaly and making that, you know, taking the footnote and making it the headline.

00:43:42 Well, one thing that I think conservatives do politically, but then also the church, is because there's been so much of this neo-Marxist thing going on, whether it's BLM and social justice or feminism or transgenderism, what conservative men have done and even pastors is they've found that minority, whether it be a person of color or whether it be women, which I've never understood why that's a minority.

00:44:12 since there's literally more women than men. But either way, you know what I'm saying. But they

00:44:17 find that minority and they make them say it. So part of the reason when I say that women, 1.00

00:44:23 here's the irony, when I say that in general, I think women have a greater propensity towards

00:44:29 being deceived. And this is one of the reasons. It's not the only reason. There's the order of 0.98

00:44:33 creation, but also the order of the fall is listed as a biblical example. And this is how people,

00:44:37 theologians understood you know the roles of patriarchy and and father rule male headship

00:44:44 and not just in the church but in you know if we're looking at guys who you know lived before

00:44:49 1960 you know most of them thought that this was in the civil realm and in the ecclesiastical realm

00:44:55 and in you know the familial realm and and they they understood this deception as a part a part

00:45:01 of that piece but when i make that argument today the irony is that one of the major objections is

00:45:06 to point immediately point to a woman and ironically a not not a flaming blue-haired you

00:45:12 know feminist woman but a conservative woman she's but she's on point joe she's not deceived

00:45:18 look at like she's every bit as conservative as you are she's and and i think of that and i thank

00:45:23 god for for conservative female voices but i can't help but think is it is it but is it because this

00:45:30 is the greatest voice we have or is it because at some level ironically in a tragic sense of irony

00:45:36 conservative men who know that this is one of the major problems of of the hour that they didn't

00:45:43 have the courage to say it themselves so they got a black person to say it for them they got a female

00:45:48 person to say it for them they got you know and you've got these conservative guys who should be

00:45:52 the shepherds who should be fighting the wolves but they don't actually fight the wolves they

00:45:56 actually just hold on to the pay the paychecks and and give it to uh their female warriors to 1.00

00:46:02 fight the wolves because they'll get less pushback, I guess?

00:46:06 So I think part of it is that there's a kind of, oh, I don't know, hirelings weren't meant

00:46:16 to handle this moment. They just weren't. And maybe hireling sounds like a very mean name,

00:46:25 but I mean it a hundred percent. In my denomination, pastors take vows. One of the

00:46:33 vows, vow six, is to die for the doctrine. You know, when you hear your husband taking that vow,

00:46:40 you realize that that includes you. And I can't think of a hireling who runs a parachurch ministry

00:46:48 who would even take a whiff at that vow. So I think, you know, this is a season right now where

00:46:54 satan is really shaking things up and the there's a particular way that the parachurches have set 0.83

00:47:01 the tone and they've they've set the agenda and you know you can't you can't change the overton 0.78

00:47:08 window from inside of it and so i'm just wondering if you know and i'm kind of i am sort of wondering

00:47:14 if just they are being put out of business by just the the the heat right now but what you're

00:47:21 saying reminds me of something else i remember speaking at a large you know event and it was

00:47:26 there are a lot of college students and somebody said you know what do you think about female

00:47:31 pastors and i said oh i think it's a sin and there was like shock and awe and and there's like a lot

00:47:37 of like uh you know and i said well you know don't y'all think that i kind of turned to my panel and

00:47:43 and there was a sense of um yes we do think that rosaria but we don't say things out loud like that

00:47:50 in public settings and um i don't i just think that's ridiculous yeah uh i think it's i think

00:47:58 it's ridiculous so yeah yeah and i think by god's grace at least for myself personally being able to

00:48:05 you know it was hard and and i didn't do everything right but but being able to

00:48:10 relocate in 2020 as some of these things we're going and starting fresh with a new church one

00:48:16 of the things that i resolved to um being getting rid of the winsome bug and and speaking plainly

00:48:25 not speaking meanly but just you don't have to be mean you just have to be clear clear clear will do

00:48:30 the trick um if you just speak clearly in this day and age you'll have plenty of people who think

00:48:34 you're mean um but it it does help like that that i you know actually started a new church and one

00:48:41 of the things that i resolved was i thought it'd be a lot easier if i just start this from the very

00:48:46 beginning you know if just from the outset um because you you know there is a sense in which

00:48:52 when when you're changing because a lot of these guys um as we've moved because the world has

00:48:58 changed as we've moved to a negative world from neutral world um you're right it's this this world

00:49:04 was not meant for hirelings and uh and it also wasn't meant for ambiguity ambiguity or or vague

00:49:11 language. It requires clarity. It requires courage. But it is difficult when you actually

00:49:20 have to change, when you haven't been that, and you actually have to change that. And there's a

00:49:25 lot of people who are upset and they're frustrated and they're partly right. They're wrong in the

00:49:31 sense that if a guy, he's reforming and he's repenting and he's actually moving closer towards

00:49:37 Christ and not further away, then people are wrong to be upset with them. But they're right

00:49:42 in the sense if they say something like, yeah, but Joel, this isn't what I signed up for.

00:49:48 So even if you're right about these changes, the church is making these changes, you're making

00:49:52 these changes to the style of your preaching and to your theology and these. And even if you're

00:49:57 right about all of it, I became a member of this church with a certain pretense, with a certain

00:50:03 understand this is not the church that i joined and and i've been in this church for seven years

00:50:09 or 12 years and i have friendships here in community and you're ripping this away from me

00:50:13 and so it it really you know just speaking again for myself personally it really was a grace to be

00:50:19 able to start over um and and then decide from again from the outset um i don't want to do that

00:50:25 with people i don't want to do a bait and switch where you know gradually you know the you know

00:50:29 we're heating up the temperature of courage and, you know, and, and this and that and the other.

00:50:35 And so from the outset, you know, and, and through podcasting and recording the sermons

00:50:39 online that, that from the outset, you know, there's 200 people that come to my church and

00:50:44 there's, you know, a few hundred thousand that know not to, you know, like, okay, that's a church

00:50:50 that I would never want to go. And I would say, you know, again, it's ironic. They would say,

00:50:54 I'm glad he's not my pastor. And I, and I would say, you know, well, and that is actually,

00:50:59 I think loving on my part that I, that I, that I let you know preemptively that you, yeah, that

00:51:06 this would probably not be the church for you. I saved you. A lot of pastors, there is this bait

00:51:11 and switch where they believe one thing, but they, like what you said, the example you gave,

00:51:15 they won't say it publicly and people join their church for two years and make like friendship.

00:51:22 And then I've heard countless testimonies of like, I went to this church for two years

00:51:26 and then found out that they thought homosexuality was a sin. 1.00

00:51:29 Right. Kirsten Powers. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no. You know, can I respond to some of that? 0.98

00:51:36 Yeah. Yes. Please. Yeah.

00:51:38 What business do we have as evangelicals calling the world to repent and change

00:51:45 if we don't feel like we need to do that too? Right. 0.58

00:51:50 I mean, I don't ever remember signing on the dotted line.

00:51:57 I mean, and maybe I just didn't.

00:52:00 I'm part of a very small denomination.

00:52:03 You know, one of their central doctrines is the mediatorial kingship of Christ, which

00:52:09 personally, I think that makes Christian nationalism look like child's play. 0.62

00:52:13 You know, I mean, you know what I mean? 0.66

00:52:14 Like, we came of age during something called the killing times.

00:52:18 So I know we're small and peculiar, but isn't what is at the heart of evangelicalism is calling people to die to themselves and to accept Christ and to take up that cross and to follow him and to leave houses and mothers and fathers.

00:52:44 and to count all of that as less than your love for Jesus.

00:52:51 And yet we won't even just say it like it is

00:52:54 because we might, what, I don't know, lose donors?

00:52:57 I mean, I just, it's easy for me to say,

00:53:01 you know, my secret weapon is I don't have a job.

00:53:04 Okay, so people who, you know,

00:53:06 will send out these internet, you know, 0.90

00:53:08 like sign here to get Rosaria fired

00:53:10 and Kent Butterfield will look at that and say,

00:53:12 does this joker think you know somebody else is going to be homeschooling the kids and making

00:53:16 the communion bread you know so maybe it's easy for me to say but i think it is something that

00:53:22 all christians should be willing to say yes of course i'll lose my job for what is true

00:53:25 of course i will because the lord will take care of me i i can't deny christ

00:53:32 so anyway i mean i do think that there's a there's a kind of inculcated cowardice that is hiding under

00:53:41 the guise of um you know being winsome and you know and i do i mean i like the old definition

00:53:48 of winsome we're going to win some for the gospel right right yeah there's a lot of cowardice you're

00:53:56 right well what uh as we're coming to a close um maybe two questions what are what's maybe the the

00:54:02 biggest pushback that you got with this book what did people hate the most and then maybe what's the

00:54:09 the best encouragement? What did people like the most? Yeah. Okay. I don't, I'm going to probably

00:54:14 be very bad at answering both of those questions because I don't keep up with myself. So I am

00:54:22 often the last to know what people hate or what they love. And I am not on social media. I mean,

00:54:29 I know I am on social media, but not, you know, I'm not a player on social media. So, so there's

00:54:34 that. But from what my husband tells me, who does do a bit of lurking around, from what my husband

00:54:41 tells me, what people really don't like is the fact that I am articulating the way the Bible

00:54:52 anchors the gospel in creation and the way the New Testament anchors the repentance of sin and

00:55:03 even an understanding, a conceptualization of sin in something like the moral law of God.

00:55:09 So that is offensive.

00:55:12 That is troubling.

00:55:13 I mean, so troubling that even, you know, World Magazine said, I think she's adding to Scripture

00:55:20 when she says that women are called to be nurturing and men are called to be strong.

00:55:24 And, you know, oh, that's Genesis 127.

00:55:27 That's not adding.

00:55:28 But if you, you know, like, so that's, you know, I would say that would be the strongest opposition. And I think that the strongest appreciation is from moms and grandmas who have prodigals, who have been in weak, mealy-mouthed evangelical churches, who have been told, let's, here's this, you know, here's this podcast by, you know, West Hill or, you know,

00:55:58 let's think about this in terms of revoice or, and, and, you know, what they really don't want

00:56:05 is their child to die in their sin and they're willing to sacrifice everything, but they have

00:56:11 felt like the evangelical church is, is kind of, you know, cutting them off at the knees. And so

00:56:17 I've heard from those moms and grandmas, faithful prayer warriors that yes, I can hang on. I can

00:56:24 hang on to my daughter, but I can cling more strongly to Christ and that lying to my daughter

00:56:32 won't help her know Jesus. And I need to remember that my daughter is a prayed for child

00:56:40 and God's covenant is real. And those promises of the covenant are real, but I need to remain

00:56:47 faithful. And so that would be the, I think the strongest accolade is just the people who

00:56:53 understand that my encouragement in wanting you to see how we got here and why we got here 0.59

00:57:00 is so that you don't need to get a PhD in critical theory, because that would be dumb. 0.66

00:57:05 Don't do that. You need to be sanctified in your ignorance as well as your knowledge. 0.98

00:57:11 But we all need to help each other hang on to the promises of the Lord. And to that degree,

00:57:18 we would do well to prioritize our families and our churches all right well thank you so much for

00:57:25 coming on the show anyway uh any i don't know call to action or way that people can follow you

00:57:30 or check out other things that you're doing it sounds like you're not on social media very much

00:57:34 but maybe you could reference some of your other books if you want them to read them okay well i

00:57:38 have a website rosaria butterfield.com and i've written i've written a number of books and then

00:57:44 And often the new book is a correction of the old book.

00:57:47 So, you know, but, you know, my coming to Christ story was The Secret Thoughts of an

00:57:53 Unlikely Convert.

00:57:54 And then I've written a book called The Gospel Comes with a House Key.

00:58:00 And that answers that question of how I came to Christ basically in someone's living room

00:58:06 and how my husband and I have used our house, both when he was a church planter and now

00:58:12 when we're just old, to provide a place where we can have very clear and very pointed gospel

00:58:20 conversations. You know, Kent's theory is, you know, my hot dogs, my conversation. So that's

00:58:27 the gospel comes with the house key and then five lies. I don't really write a lot. I'm a homeschool

00:58:31 mom. I'm a teacher. About every six years or so, I get the bug to write a book. Right now,

00:58:38 I have a, the bug to start a Christian school in a classical Christian school in Durham. That's

00:58:43 kind of my next thing. So don't be looking for us. Yeah. We're working on the same thing here

00:58:46 in Georgetown. Oh, really? Okay. Well, we can, we can compare notes. Yeah. St. George Academy is,

00:58:52 you know, St. George Classical is our goal for 2024. So we'll see. All right. Slaying dragons.

00:58:57 Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. We appreciate it. Thank you, Pastor Joel. Lord

00:59:01 bless you. You too.

00:59:08 Thank you.

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The NXR Podcast - November 28, 2023

THEOLOGY APPLIED - Feminism Thrives Most In One Place： The Church with Rosaria Butterfield

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