The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - Feminism Thrives Most In One Place： The Church with Rosaria Butterfield

00:00:00.000 In less than a year, our podcast has gone from an average of 10,000 downloads a month to 50,000

00:00:05.320 downloads. What made the difference? You leaving us a five-star review. The more positive reviews,

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00:00:17.300 Jesus Christ. Help us press forward the crown rights of King Jesus by leaving us a five-star

00:00:24.060 review on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks. Feminism has been a stubborn stain on the fabric

00:00:30.840 of our society and our culture for decades. Now, by the grace of God, feminism appears to be dying 1.00

00:00:36.700 a very quick and painful death, but not at the hands of faithful ministers in the church of

00:00:42.800 Jesus Christ. But rather, feminism is being killed by a radical leftist ideology known as 0.82

00:00:49.700 transgenderism. Ironically, and tragically, feminism still thrives, however, but only in 0.81

00:00:56.880 one location, the evangelical church. Tune in as Rosaria Butterfield joins the show to discuss the 0.99

00:01:03.960 problem of feminism in the Christian church today on this episode of Theology Applied.

00:01:10.780 Applying God's word to every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied.

00:01:19.700 In this episode, I'm very privileged to welcome to the show for the first time,

00:01:26.520 Rosaria Butterfield. Thanks for coming on.

00:01:29.240 Hey, thank you, Pastor Joel. I'm glad to be here.

00:01:31.820 All right. So let's go ahead and start with this. Most people are probably familiar with you,

00:01:35.360 and so I want to get into the meat of the content. But briefly, could you let our listeners know a

00:01:39.520 little bit about who you are?

00:01:40.940 Sure. Absolutely. I'm a pastor's wife. My husband is Kent Butterfield. He's the pastor

00:01:46.020 of the First Reformed Presbyterian Church of Durham. We are Reformed Presbyterians.

00:01:51.380 I am a mother, and I'm a grandmother, and I think this is maybe my 22nd year of homeschooling,

00:02:01.480 and I haven't always been all of those things. So I was brought to the Lord by a Reformed

00:02:09.640 Presbyterian pastor in Syracuse, New York, where I was a tenured professor of English literature,

00:02:16.660 my field is 19th century, along with women's studies and queer theory. And so my conversion

00:02:23.240 came with a lot of mess, because sin makes a lot of mess for people. And I have written about

00:02:33.980 my conversion to Christ in a number of books, and I have tried to faithfully live that out,

00:02:41.660 and I sometimes have, and I sometimes haven't. I think I'm probably most known for my repentance,

00:02:47.380 which is fine with me. I do think it's funny that public figures who are Christians who

00:02:53.200 repent of their sins, I find it strange that that's met with shock and awe, but we can talk

00:02:58.240 about what that means. But at any rate, that's who I am. I'm an older woman. I'm 61 years old.

00:03:05.620 And so the most recent book I've written is written to other women. And it's a firm conversation

00:03:13.360 that could be typified by let's get a grip. Okay, great. Well, so let's go right into it then. What

00:03:20.860 is the name? And if you could, I know you've got a copy. Could you hold up your latest book and

00:03:25.060 tell us a little bit about it i do have it right here it's called five lies of our anti-christian

00:03:31.780 age and it's published by crossway and it came out in september great what what are the five

00:03:38.620 lies can you list them for us yeah absolutely and i can maybe list the three reasons before

00:03:43.600 we get to the five lies if that's okay so um but i mean you know like every book has a story and

00:03:49.420 the story behind this book is a number of moms and grandmas who are writing to my website or

00:03:54.500 stopping me at Costco or stopping me at church, really confused about where the evangelical

00:04:02.100 church is in guiding us in this difficult time.

00:04:07.240 Our post-Abergefell world has put some real pressures on the church, and the church seemed

00:04:13.260 to be running the same play, and it was not working.

00:04:16.460 And so many of these people were writing with grief and sadness because their children,

00:04:21.640 who had once professed faith were now prodigals and yet their church was saying things like be

00:04:28.380 a soft presence you know why don't you check out this preston sprinkle video maybe we should humanize 0.93

00:04:34.140 transgenderism and they were you know like that that's the opposite of what i think we should do 0.93

00:04:40.680 and and so really the question which was posed to me is um why we can't major on the majors if we 1.00

00:04:48.020 don't even know what the majors are anymore. What in the world happened? And so I just sat down and

00:04:52.800 came up with three reasons that have produced five lives. And so the three reasons that we can't

00:04:57.920 major on the majors is because we have failed to recognize that the seeds of the gospel are in the

00:05:04.240 garden. Nature matters. No Adam, no Christ. The second reason is that we don't seem to know what

00:05:14.880 time it is. We don't, we either reject Aaron Wren's heuristic about being a negative world,

00:05:22.000 or we somehow don't think that the pressure of Obergefell and Boz Talk has, or even the

00:05:30.120 anti-bullying legislation, which is just a pro-trans, you know, ideology in your government

00:05:35.680 schools, that somehow that doesn't matter. And that works on this very strange notion that,

00:05:41.380 you know, because God's the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, you and I don't need to know what

00:05:45.680 time it is or what the weather's like. We just, and then the third reason is the one that's

00:05:50.600 probably most painful for me because I was the beneficiary of this particular kind of Christian

00:05:56.400 love. And that's that I had neighbors who knew how to love their enemies, not pretend their enemies

00:06:04.780 were their friends. And so those three just real failures of the evangelical church

00:06:13.180 have taken these five lies that have been in the world for quite some time now, some longer than

00:06:18.400 others, and they are now pretty central in most broad evangelical churches and in every parachurch

00:06:25.320 ministry I can find. The first lie is the lie that homosexuality is a normal sexual variant. 0.78

00:06:33.240 The second lie is that pagan spirituality is kind and inclusive, where biblical Christianity can be harsh and demanding.

00:06:46.500 The third lie is that feminism is good for the church and the world.

00:06:53.580 The fourth lie is that transgenderism is a normal gender variant for some people.

00:07:00.140 And you'll notice there that all of these lies, including the pagan lie, are dependent on a false distinction that feminism has put forward, and that is to distinguish sex, biological sex, from gender.

00:07:16.040 And then the fifth lie is that modesty is bad for women because it encourages patriarchy, and embedded in that lie is the idea that patriarchy is bad.

00:07:28.560 Right.

00:07:28.820 So those are the five lies. And, you know, I believed all of those lies. And I believed, I certainly, I believed and I advocated for those lies. When I was a lesbian activist professor, I was not just the lesbian next door. I testified before the New York legislature. I wrote books and policy. I have created, my fingerprints are still all over the sin that I see in this world.

00:07:55.840 So part of the tone of this book, part of the urgency of this book is I am saved, praise be to God.

00:08:03.900 I know that.

00:08:04.680 I'm confident in that.

00:08:05.940 But I'm also a grandmother, and I believe if you made a mess, you need to clean it up.

00:08:10.160 So I'm trying to do a little cleanup here.

00:08:13.100 And by cleanup, what I mean is not make myself look good, but just let the church try to give a good logic lesson.

00:08:21.400 Let the church see that some of, many of the slogans that are passing around for gospel kindness are really of the devil.

00:08:33.480 Right. Right. I'm with you on the clean up the mess. It's, you know, in the little book that I wrote, I had the same kind of thing saying there's, there's a fine line between penance, which is gospel-less, but versus, you know, the scripture talks about doing good works in keeping with repentance.

00:08:50.140 You know, so it's faith, you know, by grace, through faith in Christ alone.

00:08:55.160 But faith is never alone.

00:08:58.100 It's always going to be accompanied by good works.

00:09:00.140 And when it's, you know, the same, you know, the way in is the way on.

00:09:02.700 You know, the faith and repentance, you know, Luther, you know, talks about how the whole Christian life should be marked by a life of ongoing faith and repentance.

00:09:11.520 And so, yeah, when we make a mess, we clean it up, not as a form of gospelist penance, but we do it.

00:09:17.900 that's that's some of the fruit of repentance that when you can tell when someone is truly

00:09:21.920 repentant and not just worldly sorrow but has it possesses by the grace of god a godly sorrow

00:09:27.320 godly regret over the sin which they've committed they want to make it right that's what restitution

00:09:32.360 is that's you know to make the the person that we've offended the person that we've hurt

00:09:36.600 to make them whole um as best we can in this life and some things can't be made whole i like uh

00:09:43.120 I, I like, um, rush doing, uh, he, he said, um, when it comes to, you know, capital punishment

00:09:50.300 in the case of murder, um, because you can't make the person whole, um, you know, you've taken a

00:09:55.440 life. Um, and it's, it's such a grievous crime, uh, that, uh, the reason why it bears capital

00:10:00.700 punishment is because, um, it's something that, uh, the person has done something so egregious

00:10:05.020 that they have to be immediately transferred to a higher court. So, you know, there are cases

00:10:11.500 where we can't make it whole, but as best we can, by the grace of God, we seek to not to earn his

00:10:15.800 favor and not to somehow erase our past failures, but because it's the fruit of truly being

00:10:21.880 repentant. So yeah. So all that being said, let's, let's talk a little bit about feminism. I feel

00:10:26.920 like that's, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. I feel like there's a lot of feminism in 1.00

00:10:31.640 the church today. I, you know, I feel like it's kind of something that it's like two fish, you 0.92

00:10:38.060 passing by as they're swimming through the ocean. And one says, the water sure is nice today. And

00:10:42.080 the other says, what's water? Can you talk a little bit about ways, maybe signs of feminism 1.00

00:10:49.560 that you see in the church today? And especially, Andy Stanley, like you already said, you can pick

00:10:55.520 on him all day long, but I'm thinking maybe a little closer to home. Most of our listeners are

00:11:01.740 reformed Christians and they'd be going to, they wouldn't be going to Andy Stanley's church.

00:11:06.680 They would be going to an OPC church, PCA church, Reformed Baptist church, most of them, you know, reformed and confessionally reformed. And yet I see feminism there.

00:11:17.100 oh yeah oh yeah yeah yeah yeah and i also hear um and even some of the you know some of the 1.00

00:11:24.320 feedback i get on the book is well can't you say that feminism is sometimes good like like hey that

00:11:29.960 first wave that was looking pretty good wasn't it i mean do you so so it's interesting to to me the

00:11:35.480 way that we're tempted to look at maybe some of the symptoms of a movement that we like

00:11:42.420 and therefore apply a kind of welcome to the whole movement.

00:11:47.940 And that's just, that's a disaster.

00:11:50.400 But, you know, we can talk about the feminism chapter historically,

00:11:54.620 and I am a 19th century scholar, so I do love to go there. 0.77

00:11:58.520 Mary Wollstonecraft is the founder and the particular ways that the,

00:12:03.620 you know, the French Revolution and other things were bearing on this conversation.

00:12:07.980 That would be a long conversation.

00:12:09.980 I do kind of dig into that a little bit in the book.

00:12:12.420 But I think what I'd like to do to answer your question, to help people maybe see it in the church, is to think about the way that feminism introduced this idea that biological sex and cultural gender are really different.

00:12:27.980 They're just different things. They're different categories. And in philosophy, a category is important because it's got boundaries. It's almost like its own cell.

00:12:36.140 biological sex is um you know the creation ordinance women are born with the creational 1.00

00:12:42.800 power capacity to be nurturers who bear children but should that interfere with our sense of 1.00

00:12:51.740 gifting or calling why then we have we appeal to cultural gender and basically cultural gender 1.00

00:12:59.060 There was a category basically for feminism to go to war with progeny and patriarchy, babies and men. 0.99

00:13:09.220 And I think that we just see this everywhere.

00:13:12.320 And I think part of why we see this everywhere is this refusal to see that just in the same way that the Bible is a unified biblical revelation.

00:13:26.780 um god is is not going to create god does not create us with a with competition in our calling

00:13:35.700 um and so you know i certainly railed against this i mean at a certain point i was a single

00:13:42.760 woman who thought she was a lesbian reading the bible trying to make sense of genesis 127

00:13:49.540 And here's what I knew. I didn't see my actual self in it yet, but there was a little part of me that was downright thrilled. Could God be so loving that even I might be able to step into this creational capacity?

00:14:11.580 I mean, that was a crazy idea.

00:14:14.280 But the idea of the integration of the creation ordinance with your gospel life is key there.

00:14:21.740 Now, what's interesting to me is that, I don't know if you've noticed this, but feminism is dead, D-E-A-D, in the world. 0.84

00:14:31.760 Transgenderism killed it. 0.98

00:14:33.180 Right. 1.00

00:14:34.040 The only place I see feminism alive is the evangelical church. 1.00

00:14:39.340 Yep. 1.00

00:14:39.540 i mean maybe it's alive somewhere else and now somebody after seeing this podcast is going to

00:14:43.440 write in and say oh rosario really it's alive here under this rock but it's not it and it and how did

00:14:49.820 transgenderism kill feminism by taking its very central catechism there is a difference between

00:14:56.860 sex and gender and simply taking it to its logical extension what transgenderism is gender without 0.97

00:15:05.600 sex. So feminism created the capacity for its own death is what I'm saying. Now, the way you see it

00:15:14.600 in the church, usually from the, at least in my experience as a pastor's wife, is you will see it

00:15:21.880 in a fairly passive aggressive way. So in my church, we don't have, you know, nope, you're not

00:15:28.200 going to have women, you know, reading from the pulpit or something like that. But you definitely 1.00

00:15:33.220 can have women who are discontent, right? I mean, you can have men who are discontent too,

00:15:40.640 but that's not what we're talking about right now. We're talking about, and discontentment

00:15:44.960 is a sin. And it's usually a sin that's motivated by envy, by a sense of, but I should have,

00:15:53.320 but I could have, but my giftings are. And it needs to be dealt with lovingly, gently. And

00:16:02.540 as long as it is a private sin privately in a, in a, either a Titus two context or, um, when the

00:16:09.980 elders are meeting with families. Um, but it, it, you know, envy is rottenness to the bone. So when

00:16:16.980 we let it run, it's really serious. And I, I meet a lot of women who will say things like, Oh, I,

00:16:24.840 I wish I could come to your church, but I'm called to ministry. And so I have this calling

00:16:33.940 and I need a church who's going to give me a platform to do that calling. And that's not

00:16:41.000 why we do church. That's not why any of us do church. We do church to worship God and what we

00:16:49.100 bring to it are filthy rags to some degree or another.

00:16:52.380 Real quick on that point, one thing that I've noticed, and maybe I'm being uncharitable,

00:16:59.060 but it does seem like when it comes to women's ministries, that very often, I won't say always,

00:17:04.600 but very often, it seems that it's not about the women being ministered to, but it's a way,

00:17:12.500 especially in Reformed, more conservative churches, it's a way of creating a women's

00:17:17.040 only context so that one woman can LARP as a pastor while still holding her complementarian 0.97

00:17:23.380 card? 0.92

00:17:25.080 That's possible.

00:17:26.240 The way that, I love the way that our associate pastor, Drew Poplin, puts it.

00:17:30.180 He said, it's the only place in the church where there's no authority.

00:17:35.720 And so if you think about, like, there's no authority, so there are all kinds of things

00:17:39.920 that can happen.

00:17:40.640 So maybe somebody can LARP as a pastor.

00:17:43.360 definitely what i've seen are just opportunities for um um you know a kind of heavy heavy display

00:17:53.280 of emotion that and again with no authority there's nothing that kind of reigns it in um

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00:19:47.760 You know, so this is, I'm planting right now, we're two and a half years in, we're in Texas,

00:19:51.880 and I led a church in California and moved out there young, zealous, and immature and was not

00:19:57.260 qualified to plant a church. God was merciful. The church is still there. It's healthy. It's

00:20:01.320 doing well. They've started a classical school and things are great. But I bit off more than I

00:20:05.880 could chew. And as my wife and I started having children and then 2020 happened, we realized,

00:20:10.540 okay, you know, and her family and my family were both in Texas. And so, you know, I finally was

00:20:18.160 starting to wake up to maybe, you know, the urban church planting, like praise God if he sends some

00:20:22.880 people and they're actually called missionary is a legitimate biblical category. But for a while,

00:20:28.440 that's like, you know, you really weren't valuable at all unless you were a church planter and unless

00:20:32.240 you were going to do urban, you know, ministry, church planting in a very, you know, dark blue

00:20:37.660 county, city, state. And I really think in some ways, like we, I think in some ways it was a

00:20:45.320 suicidal mission. We spread ourselves too thin. And a lot of these churches, the cities that they

00:20:52.060 went into discipled the church more than the church discipled the sitting. And so, and so

00:20:56.460 anyway, so I was retracting from that, repenting from that, doing good works and keeping with

00:21:00.420 repentance, making changes. And so with the church that I'm pastoring now, one of the things,

00:21:04.560 you know, and I'm not having an extra biblical hard and fast world, but we're two and a half

00:21:08.840 years in. And so far, this is what we've done is I was like, let's just do all our energy,

00:21:14.480 all our time, all our focus on a full Lord's day. And so, and that's what we do. And we just,

00:21:20.300 we don't have any ministries, you know, and the churches and it's quickly went from, you know,

00:21:24.440 20 to 200 people. And so it's not just, I can't, at first I could use that excuse, you know, for

00:21:29.780 the first year or so, like, well, we're a church plant. What do you expect? You know, but now it's

00:21:33.420 like, well, no, it really is by design. And, you know, and, and I'm, again, I'm open to these

00:21:38.320 things and the elders will discuss these things perhaps in the future, if there's a ministry that

00:21:41.880 really serves the body, that really is in line with the scripture, but, but for the foreseeable

00:21:47.320 future. We're in no rush to have any midweek ministries. It's just the Lord's day. We gather

00:21:53.300 and, you know, we gather together and we have people, it's kind of, it's, it's funny. It's,

00:21:56.840 you know, we don't have wagons and horses, you know, but we have people because the church is

00:22:01.880 so discredited itself and so many churches closed for a year with COVID and you did this and did

00:22:06.620 that, that, you know, a lot of people are driving a great distance, you know, and so to get to a

00:22:13.580 church so i mean we we still have cars but a lot of people it's like we have people coming two and

00:22:18.140 a half hours you know to our church and um and and so with that it's like you you don't you can't go

00:22:24.160 to a small group on tuesday night you know so that's a i mean these people you know with one

00:22:29.860 family in particular wonderful family and their and their goal is you know they became members

00:22:34.060 because uh they were the children to baptize and things like that we wanted you know to be members

00:22:39.340 in the church even if you know lord willing that a church sprouts up that's closer to you then we

00:22:43.600 would you know go ahead and release you and transfer your membership over and that would

00:22:47.060 be wonderful but in the meantime with you know if we're going to baptize we'd like you to actually

00:22:50.920 be members of the church and um and so the two and a half hours and they're coming twice a month

00:22:55.700 you know and and then other families are driving an hour and a half and they're coming every week

00:22:59.320 but with that we're like why don't we just why don't we just stay all day you know and you know

00:23:04.220 and we're look we're wanting you know as i think about ministries it's all still in the lord's day

00:23:08.000 frame. I'm like, all right, so we have Sunday morning, Sunday evening. We've got a potluck

00:23:11.440 every, every Sunday evening. So, you know, and I'm thinking, all right, so, and then let's get

00:23:14.940 that afternoon prayer meeting. And then that Sunday school, you know, and then the, and you

00:23:19.340 know, in the, in the olden days, you know, the good old days, that's you, you were farming that

00:23:24.200 life was hard. You were, you know, it took you hours to get to church. You lived a couple of

00:23:29.260 miles from, you know, a mile from your closest neighbors, your kids, their best friends were

00:23:32.920 their brothers and sisters. And you're working as a family household industry was attached to

00:23:37.380 the household. But once a week, the market day for the soul, you rode into town, the delectable

00:23:42.520 hills, got a view of the celestial city, and it was a one-day event. And that's it. There was no

00:23:46.460 midweek things. And so again, not a hard, fast rule against all midweek things, but that's what

00:23:51.200 we're doing. And it's been such a breath of fresh air. Our people love it. And then outside of that,

00:23:56.780 all week long, we're focusing on this world. We're focusing on building households and businesses

00:24:03.500 and schools and we have men running for local office and being involved in you know all of

00:24:08.580 christ for all of life kind of thing so right right i think that um programs and slogans have

00:24:15.280 been the death of the church and um we're sabbatarians so we have a even a membership

00:24:22.280 vow about keeping the lord's day holy and that can be extremely hard to do if you know people

00:24:29.640 are like checking their watch, you know, as they're hearing the benediction and they're

00:24:33.460 out the door.

00:24:34.860 It's extremely hard to do for our singles who desire to be biblically married. 0.98

00:24:39.920 It's, and so we do the same thing.

00:24:42.660 We spend, we spend the day together at worship and prayer and Psalm singing at a fellowship

00:24:51.780 meal at the church, at a fellowship meal at our house.

00:24:54.160 I mean, it's a full, full day, and we've been able to just open our arms wide and draw other people into that, and so that's been a good thing.

00:25:05.280 We also do have, now we're not a church plant anymore, and we do have a midweek prayer meeting, you know, the Wednesday night prayer meeting, and it's just the old, well, it's interesting who goes to it.

00:25:17.200 It's like the young people, the old people, and then it's interesting, people who go to a local megachurch that are tired of the slogans and the programs.

00:25:31.920 And so pretty soon, my friend and co-author Andrew Brandt said, pretty soon, it's like we're going to be a small group of the so-and-so church.

00:25:40.920 Right, right.

00:25:42.780 So that's been a sweet time, too.

00:25:45.180 But no, I think that's exactly right.

00:25:47.660 And it's a wonderful way to honor the Lord today and keep that commandment.

00:25:50.940 Yes.

00:25:51.900 Yeah, and with the midweek ministries and then making them so particular for women and for men, it's weird that I've actually had to inform people in doing this, you know, carefully.

00:26:04.960 But in my preaching, I've had to inform the church.

00:26:08.360 The elders are not the pastors of the men only.

00:26:13.020 they are the pastors of the church um so so and and i think that's another thing that happens is

00:26:20.040 so one you create only women women only context so that a particular woman can function in some

00:26:25.520 kind of leadership role that's really questionable in biblical terms but still proudly being a

00:26:30.260 complementarian card holding individual but then i i also think that um what happens is that even

00:26:36.540 if you don't do it in word um you never label it this way in function she in you know a pseudo

00:26:42.920 capacity she becomes um it's like well this is my pastor so and so you know that so the the pastors

00:26:50.900 who preach on the lord's day they well those are the men's pastors but we have our own set of right

00:26:57.140 of pastors um and and that is i think you know massively problematic yeah yeah and i would say 0.87

00:27:05.540 I think women do need, especially in such a gynocentric world where, you know, I speak before, you know, school boards on the subject of transgenderism and parental rights, which is a, you know, that's a story unto itself. 0.66

00:27:18.460 But, you know, everybody there is a woman, right? 0.90

00:27:21.700 All the people in charge are women. 0.98

00:27:23.600 So we live in a world where most of us are used to seeing, you know, the women are ahead of the school boards and the women are here.

00:27:31.060 And so I do think, I think that as Christians, we need to learn how to submit to our pastor and our elders and learn to submit and trust to godly men.

00:27:47.600 And I think this kind of wholesale rejection of biblical patriarchy, I'm not super comfortable with the term complementarianism because I just think it—

00:27:59.060 I keep saying complementarian card.

00:28:01.820 Okay, okay, sorry.

00:28:03.000 And I wasn't rebuking.

00:28:04.340 I prescribed it to patriarchy, but go ahead.

00:28:06.360 Yeah, I just don't like it because it's not a biblical word, and it's a little too plastic for me.

00:28:11.940 But I think that part of the rejection of biblical patriarchy is, I think some of it is unfamiliarity.

00:28:23.420 And sometimes you really do just have to take a young woman aside or an older woman aside, a single woman aside,

00:28:28.760 and say, it's really going to be okay, but you're just going to have to, you're going to have to 0.50

00:28:33.220 submit to this. You're going to have to get a grip. This is really the biblical model and you're not

00:28:39.440 going to die and you're really going to learn something. And it's going to be really good

00:28:42.820 because we want the godly men in charge of the teaching because we need the godly men to kick 0.95

00:28:52.300 those wolves to the curb. And if they don't do that, then those wolves are going to be

00:29:01.040 infiltrating the weakest of us. And it's going to be really ugly. And I mean, this is, you know,

00:29:09.600 one wants to be careful about saying this, but in the years that I've been a pastor's wife,

00:29:14.680 It does seem to me that Satan's widest angle on a church body can sometimes be the most unhinged woman.

00:29:26.000 And that, so I do think that it is very important that the pastors and the elders, you know, we don't want that. 0.86

00:29:35.080 In that vein, I'm going to put you on the spot a little bit.

00:29:37.840 I'm curious what you'll say about this.

00:29:39.600 So I would prescribe to biblical patriarchs and people say, well, what's the difference?

00:29:44.020 you know, complementarianism, biblical patriarchy, why use patriarchy? It's, you know,

00:29:48.440 it's a pejorative or it's become that, you know, and it's got all these negative and, you know,

00:29:52.740 and I'm like, well, for one, I, a word that was coined in 1988, you know, that's, you know,

00:29:56.920 20 minutes old is, is, you know, that's not really that my preference. I'd like something that's,

00:30:01.120 you know, really old and, um, and rooted in history and scripture. Uh, but two, you know,

00:30:05.740 when, when you get down to the, you know, but what's the rub, what are the actual differences,

00:30:09.800 the distinctions. And one that I would say is from first Timothy chapter two, verses nine through

00:30:15.780 15, that when Paul gives his reasoning for male headship, he does not only cite the order of

00:30:23.280 creation, but he also cites the order of the fall. And he cites that, you know, the woman was

00:30:29.440 deceived and became a transgressor. And, and so when you read dead guys, you know, that guys who

00:30:37.560 lived before 1960 and the post-war sentiment and those kinds of, you know, you read 1900 years of

00:30:44.300 guys. I mean, it was incredibly common. Nobody was blushing or batting an eye. They would just say,

00:30:51.140 yeah, well, one of the reasons that a woman shouldn't lead is not just because men have 1.00

00:30:56.020 greater physical strength and that they can bench press and women have hips and they're able to 0.94

00:31:00.320 birth babies, but also, and this is hard for our world to do these days, especially on social media,

00:31:05.560 but I'm going to speak in categories, generalities. So we can find one woman who can

00:31:10.940 outbench one man. Likewise, what I'm about to say, we can find some women who could beat some 0.98

00:31:16.880 men in this. But in general, do you think that women are more susceptible to deception than men?

00:31:23.540 You know, absolutely. And I think you really see it played out right now in transgenderism. 0.96

00:31:28.280 Why is rapid onset gender dysphoria primarily a woman's problem? 0.90

00:31:34.020 And so you can talk about it in terms of, you know, what is deception?

00:31:38.020 Deception is a greater willingness to empathize with a point of view that isn't yours.

00:31:44.940 It's a greater willingness to receive and to welcome.

00:31:50.440 So there can be all kinds of very useful qualities to being that person.

00:31:57.460 but not if you're in the company of wolves so i think so that's so in the company of wolves

00:32:05.360 that is very dangerous to you and to everybody around you and i don't know any person who gets

00:32:13.400 up in the morning and says you know i'm really hoping that i'm going to tear my house down today 0.74

00:32:17.280 i'm you know on my list of things to do is let me destroy my house with my own hands or destroy my

00:32:22.920 church but um you know easily your your capacity for empathy can be turned and torqued in very 0.71

00:32:33.920 dangerous ways and we're seeing that in rapid onset gender dysphoria so anybody who would reject

00:32:39.300 that i would want them i i need then you to explain to me why this you know rogd is primarily

00:32:47.480 women like what you know what's going on there right that's really good to use a a current

00:32:54.900 example and statistics that they would actually have to be able to refute and then you know even 1.00

00:32:59.640 using biblical examples as you have the principle there in first sympathy two but then in terms of

00:33:04.240 case studies um like they creep into households and lead astray weak-willed women um that why are

00:33:13.440 the false teachers always male in the new testament and why why do they go after always the women and

00:33:20.640 that you know and again of course there are some exceptions but speaking in general rules um it

00:33:25.780 does seem as though the general strategy is uh false teachers a guy and he's going to try to

00:33:33.280 deceive a girl right yeah absolutely and about that other point you're making um you know this

00:33:40.000 the how did transgenderism become normalized like why in the world would even somebody as

00:33:47.840 as just dysfunctionally minded in his ability to handle a theological concept like Preston

00:33:54.880 Sprinkle even someone like that why would he recently do a program on humanizing the

00:34:00.880 transgender experience like what what is going on there well it is a not just a propensity but now 0.99

00:34:06.980 a virtue to make the anomaly the norm. And so that's the other thing that the church 0.99

00:34:16.760 has to be aware of. Christians don't throw people away. We do not throw people away.

00:34:23.820 We are not the people at school board meetings holding up pictures of mangled bodies saying,

00:34:28.060 this is an example of what not to do. We are the people who are proclaiming the gospel of

00:34:33.500 jesus christ that says god cannot be mocked the creative order is indeed ontological um

00:34:40.640 and the very good news of that is that even if you have tried to mock that created order and

00:34:46.960 you have gone through the whole you know battering of surgeries if you are a christian and you are

00:34:53.100 in christ and you have repented and you believe when your body is resurrected in the last day

00:34:58.560 you'll be the man you were meant to be right that is what christians say at school board meetings

00:35:03.780 um so we're not throwing people away but if you start to create a situation where you can't hold

00:35:11.000 the center because every anomaly renorms the norm that's where i just say please go go sell

00:35:20.200 insurance get out of the game just just you know i i'm sure we'd have a nice time at the bowling

00:35:25.440 alley but don't don't teach because this is this is really crazy and i think when you have

00:35:31.840 any kind of a new testament ethic or a christian ethic that that does you know unhinge the old

00:35:41.060 from the new what you're going to end up is a very theme-based christianity a christianity

00:35:46.980 based in slogans and nouns right but no resurrection power and and just and really

00:35:54.240 no ability to speak truthfully into the into the reality of what it means to be a person who knows

00:36:03.800 your indwelling sin, trying to fight it in the context of a world that has made it its reigning

00:36:11.580 idol, you know, and so we just have to be able to say to people lovingly, kindly, you know, 0.91

00:36:18.500 and 500 times if needed homosexuality is a deed of the flesh it is a sin of the flesh it's found 0.79

00:36:26.600 in the flesh it is forbidden by the law and it is overcome in the savior and and and that's true

00:36:35.080 whether you want to call homosexuality ssa or you want to call it sexual orientation i did you know

00:36:40.300 there are a lot of neologisms that we're going to pour into this but how do we liberate the captives

00:36:46.420 without giving them that truth but if you're somebody who who has to re-norm the norm you

00:36:53.000 just can't say those things right yeah everything these days comes down to the lowest common

00:36:58.360 denominator that's how our society you know continues to function and and it's all in the

00:37:03.960 name of empathy and there's always a few guys at the top who know what they're doing it's a

00:37:09.080 weaponized empathy but for most of the the public whether it be in the church or whether it be in

00:37:14.520 our body politic, you know, just our populace, most of the public, I think, you know, against

00:37:19.700 their better judgment is trying to be kind. They're trying to, you know, yeah, trying to be

00:37:25.400 kind. Can I just jump in here? Because it just, I, it's really funny when this happens at a school

00:37:31.900 board meeting and the whole school board, and they'll use this expression in Durham, which is

00:37:36.800 blue, blue, blue. They'll use this expression, you know, just hold space. Don't try to solve

00:37:42.760 problems and you know at some point i mean and i do i'll just ask you know you get you get three

00:37:47.640 minutes they have to listen to you but aren't you the school board aren't you here to fix the

00:37:53.200 problem of the school lunch and the math class that like you're here to fix problems and that's

00:37:58.660 the thing empathy can never fix problems right because that's considered almost in violation

00:38:05.060 of the standards of what um what helping means you've said this before you can't fix problems

00:38:12.460 you must, you're mandated to feel problems. Feel the problem, but don't actually. Have you heard

00:38:20.140 Doug Wilson and like Joe Rigney, The Sin of Empathy? Oh, yeah, I love it. And I think they

00:38:26.200 really get a bad rap because people aren't listening. They're not saying there's never

00:38:33.160 a time to empathize. And I'm not saying there's never a time to empathize, but I'm just saying

00:38:37.640 that's hardly the magic bullet. They get a bad rap as they talk about the sin of empathy,

00:38:42.780 because people aren't willing to be empathetic with those who say empathy is a sin. Isn't that

00:38:47.520 ironic? Well, but I think it is, I think that if you reject the concept of sympathy, you're

00:38:52.600 rejecting Christ. You're, you know, you're rejecting, you know, the gospel. They speak

00:38:56.980 highly of sympathy, compassion to bear with, but they distinguish that from empathy to suffer in.

00:39:03.360 yes and also yes exactly but ultimately jesus rescues the captives right right and and that

00:39:13.660 requires something that isn't empathy you're right yep it requires strength your feet are actually

00:39:21.160 firmly planted on the ground you got a hand holding onto the tree as you put the other hand

00:39:26.740 yeah jumping in the quicksand with the individual doesn't uh you can feel it but you can't fix it

00:39:32.540 so um and with that i like how you brought up you know so you're bringing up a reason you're saying 0.99

00:39:38.000 yes you answered my question you know in general is there a greater you know tendency for women to

00:39:43.240 be deceived than men and you answered the question by saying yes but you also gave the why you know

00:39:47.920 you said because of the way that god designed them it's not um that women are unintelligent 0.98

00:39:52.640 it's not that women are stupid but god designed women to be caring to be feeling to be empathetic 0.72

00:39:58.240 and in the right ways and maybe sympathetic um and so like you know i i think of you know 0.98

00:40:05.200 well when the the russia ukraine thing started you know um you know and now we've moved on to

00:40:10.520 israel and palestine but you know uh my how the time flies when we're trying to start world war

00:40:15.700 three but um you know when it was still ukraine and and russia and that was still the popular

00:40:20.420 thing um i remember there were like certain uh you know celebrity women you know who were uh

00:40:26.500 one of them wrote a poem and read it, you know, of, uh, if only I was Putin's mother, you know?

00:40:32.000 And I thought like, and I thought, well, you know, that, I mean, I like that. I appreciate

00:40:35.920 that in the sense that that makes sense. Like that is how, um, I think that is how God has

00:40:42.200 designed women to think not their only capacity, but that is a central theme and focus. Like I bet

00:40:48.440 Putin had a bad mom, you know? And so she, that's the essence of the poem. He probably just had a

00:40:52.540 bad mom. He needs a good mom. And I think that's all fine and dandy. I think it's better than fine

00:40:57.380 and dandy. It's wonderful. The hand that rocks the cradle, we need that hand. The problem though

00:41:03.280 is when that hand's not rocking the cradle, but when that person with that sentiment is a Supreme

00:41:09.760 Court justice, or when that person is a Senator, or when that person... And so then shifting gears

00:41:15.900 One more example, Kintaji Brown Jackson, you know, soft on pedophiles, you know, and I remember, you know, thinking about that, you know, and thinking, well, of course she is like, like her, I think her, her, her deepest, it's, you know, she's been designed by God to think, like, I want, I want to, there's something wrong here.

00:41:40.420 He needs love. He needs nurturing. He needs caring. Men are not that way. So men hear that there's

00:41:48.100 another man who has engaged in looking at, you know, pedophilic images. And for men, we say,

00:41:57.340 let's get some rope. Yeah, absolutely. Let's find a tree. And I think that's particularly helpful 0.96

00:42:05.180 when it comes to the position of the civil rulers.

00:42:08.960 That's not always the most helpful thing

00:42:10.960 when it comes to the three-year-old,

00:42:12.620 you know, on a Wednesday afternoon.

00:42:14.400 Like that little girl needs mom. 0.77

00:42:16.460 Right, yes.

00:42:17.060 But also that's where the church comes in too 0.99

00:42:19.180 because I think that when our temptation as women

00:42:22.620 is to really try to maybe empathize,

00:42:26.860 maybe even psychologize this,

00:42:28.620 find a reason that, you know,

00:42:31.780 we're just kind of fumbling around.

00:42:33.380 That is a wonderful time

00:42:35.140 to call the elders right that is a terrific time to say i am getting really um roped into something 0.75

00:42:45.300 and i kind of sort of think jl would just take a tent peg and you know rail it through the head

00:42:53.220 right now but i'm really seeing this from the wrong point of view i think i think that's part of 1.00

00:42:59.260 also the way women are designed is that we are more likely to play around with point of view 1.00

00:43:06.980 to just sort of say, well, if I see it, if I do this, if I do that, but that's when we need to 0.99

00:43:11.380 call, you know, if we're, if we're married, we call our husband. If we're, um, we're single,

00:43:16.720 we call the elders, we need some help in interpreting. And that's part of, that's a

00:43:22.460 body issue. Right. And to lay off the women and to point the finger at the men for a moment,

00:43:28.560 And I've noticed that if I'm honest, part of the reason I think we got into this problem is we, you know, you talked about like, you know, the anomaly and making that, you know, taking the footnote and making it the headline.

00:43:42.840 Well, one thing that I think conservatives do politically, but then also the church, is because there's been so much of this neo-Marxist thing going on, whether it's BLM and social justice or feminism or transgenderism, what conservative men have done and even pastors is they've found that minority, whether it be a person of color or whether it be women, which I've never understood why that's a minority.

00:44:12.840 since there's literally more women than men. But either way, you know what I'm saying. But they

00:44:17.580 find that minority and they make them say it. So part of the reason when I say that women, 1.00

00:44:23.080 here's the irony, when I say that in general, I think women have a greater propensity towards

00:44:29.200 being deceived. And this is one of the reasons. It's not the only reason. There's the order of 0.98

00:44:33.280 creation, but also the order of the fall is listed as a biblical example. And this is how people,

00:44:37.920 theologians understood you know the roles of patriarchy and and father rule male headship

00:44:44.040 and not just in the church but in you know if we're looking at guys who you know lived before

00:44:49.880 1960 you know most of them thought that this was in the civil realm and in the ecclesiastical realm

00:44:55.520 and in you know the familial realm and and they they understood this deception as a part a part

00:45:01.060 of that piece but when i make that argument today the irony is that one of the major objections is

00:45:06.620 to point immediately point to a woman and ironically a not not a flaming blue-haired you

00:45:12.620 know feminist woman but a conservative woman she's but she's on point joe she's not deceived

00:45:18.280 look at like she's every bit as conservative as you are she's and and i think of that and i thank

00:45:23.440 god for for conservative female voices but i can't help but think is it is it but is it because this

00:45:30.120 is the greatest voice we have or is it because at some level ironically in a tragic sense of irony

00:45:36.580 conservative men who know that this is one of the major problems of of the hour that they didn't

00:45:43.740 have the courage to say it themselves so they got a black person to say it for them they got a female

00:45:48.200 person to say it for them they got you know and you've got these conservative guys who should be

00:45:52.600 the shepherds who should be fighting the wolves but they don't actually fight the wolves they

00:45:56.140 actually just hold on to the pay the paychecks and and give it to uh their female warriors to 1.00

00:46:02.540 fight the wolves because they'll get less pushback, I guess?

00:46:06.100 So I think part of it is that there's a kind of, oh, I don't know, hirelings weren't meant

00:46:16.320 to handle this moment. They just weren't. And maybe hireling sounds like a very mean name,

00:46:25.920 but I mean it a hundred percent. In my denomination, pastors take vows. One of the

00:46:33.680 vows, vow six, is to die for the doctrine. You know, when you hear your husband taking that vow,

00:46:40.960 you realize that that includes you. And I can't think of a hireling who runs a parachurch ministry

00:46:48.700 who would even take a whiff at that vow. So I think, you know, this is a season right now where

00:46:54.460 satan is really shaking things up and the there's a particular way that the parachurches have set 0.83

00:47:01.340 the tone and they've they've set the agenda and you know you can't you can't change the overton 0.78

00:47:08.300 window from inside of it and so i'm just wondering if you know and i'm kind of i am sort of wondering

00:47:14.120 if just they are being put out of business by just the the the heat right now but what you're

00:47:21.440 saying reminds me of something else i remember speaking at a large you know event and it was

00:47:26.860 there are a lot of college students and somebody said you know what do you think about female

00:47:31.500 pastors and i said oh i think it's a sin and there was like shock and awe and and there's like a lot

00:47:37.400 of like uh you know and i said well you know don't y'all think that i kind of turned to my panel and

00:47:43.400 and there was a sense of um yes we do think that rosaria but we don't say things out loud like that

00:47:50.060 in public settings and um i don't i just think that's ridiculous yeah uh i think it's i think

00:47:58.420 it's ridiculous so yeah yeah and i think by god's grace at least for myself personally being able to

00:48:05.660 you know it was hard and and i didn't do everything right but but being able to

00:48:10.700 relocate in 2020 as some of these things we're going and starting fresh with a new church one

00:48:16.940 of the things that i resolved to um being getting rid of the winsome bug and and speaking plainly

00:48:25.180 not speaking meanly but just you don't have to be mean you just have to be clear clear clear will do

00:48:30.060 the trick um if you just speak clearly in this day and age you'll have plenty of people who think

00:48:34.520 you're mean um but it it does help like that that i you know actually started a new church and one

00:48:41.760 of the things that i resolved was i thought it'd be a lot easier if i just start this from the very

00:48:46.080 beginning you know if just from the outset um because you you know there is a sense in which

00:48:52.560 when when you're changing because a lot of these guys um as we've moved because the world has

00:48:58.540 changed as we've moved to a negative world from neutral world um you're right it's this this world

00:49:04.440 was not meant for hirelings and uh and it also wasn't meant for ambiguity ambiguity or or vague

00:49:11.200 language. It requires clarity. It requires courage. But it is difficult when you actually

00:49:20.960 have to change, when you haven't been that, and you actually have to change that. And there's a

00:49:25.560 lot of people who are upset and they're frustrated and they're partly right. They're wrong in the

00:49:31.820 sense that if a guy, he's reforming and he's repenting and he's actually moving closer towards

00:49:37.440 Christ and not further away, then people are wrong to be upset with them. But they're right

00:49:42.620 in the sense if they say something like, yeah, but Joel, this isn't what I signed up for.

00:49:48.640 So even if you're right about these changes, the church is making these changes, you're making

00:49:52.860 these changes to the style of your preaching and to your theology and these. And even if you're

00:49:57.980 right about all of it, I became a member of this church with a certain pretense, with a certain

00:50:03.920 understand this is not the church that i joined and and i've been in this church for seven years

00:50:09.180 or 12 years and i have friendships here in community and you're ripping this away from me

00:50:13.940 and so it it really you know just speaking again for myself personally it really was a grace to be

00:50:19.020 able to start over um and and then decide from again from the outset um i don't want to do that

00:50:25.400 with people i don't want to do a bait and switch where you know gradually you know the you know

00:50:29.900 we're heating up the temperature of courage and, you know, and, and this and that and the other.

00:50:35.480 And so from the outset, you know, and, and through podcasting and recording the sermons

00:50:39.580 online that, that from the outset, you know, there's 200 people that come to my church and

00:50:44.780 there's, you know, a few hundred thousand that know not to, you know, like, okay, that's a church

00:50:50.660 that I would never want to go. And I would say, you know, again, it's ironic. They would say,

00:50:54.340 I'm glad he's not my pastor. And I, and I would say, you know, well, and that is actually,

00:50:59.780 I think loving on my part that I, that I, that I let you know preemptively that you, yeah, that

00:51:06.460 this would probably not be the church for you. I saved you. A lot of pastors, there is this bait

00:51:11.400 and switch where they believe one thing, but they, like what you said, the example you gave,

00:51:15.860 they won't say it publicly and people join their church for two years and make like friendship.

00:51:22.060 And then I've heard countless testimonies of like, I went to this church for two years

00:51:26.600 and then found out that they thought homosexuality was a sin. 1.00

00:51:29.800 Right. Kirsten Powers. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, no. You know, can I respond to some of that? 0.98

00:51:36.200 Yeah. Yes. Please. Yeah.

00:51:38.520 What business do we have as evangelicals calling the world to repent and change

00:51:45.080 if we don't feel like we need to do that too? Right. 0.58

00:51:50.600 I mean, I don't ever remember signing on the dotted line.

00:51:57.040 I mean, and maybe I just didn't.

00:52:00.020 I'm part of a very small denomination.

00:52:03.560 You know, one of their central doctrines is the mediatorial kingship of Christ, which

00:52:09.000 personally, I think that makes Christian nationalism look like child's play. 0.62

00:52:13.420 You know, I mean, you know what I mean? 0.66

00:52:14.860 Like, we came of age during something called the killing times.

00:52:18.920 So I know we're small and peculiar, but isn't what is at the heart of evangelicalism is calling people to die to themselves and to accept Christ and to take up that cross and to follow him and to leave houses and mothers and fathers.

00:52:44.220 and to count all of that as less than your love for Jesus.

00:52:51.240 And yet we won't even just say it like it is

00:52:54.840 because we might, what, I don't know, lose donors?

00:52:57.900 I mean, I just, it's easy for me to say,

00:53:01.020 you know, my secret weapon is I don't have a job.

00:53:04.580 Okay, so people who, you know,

00:53:06.740 will send out these internet, you know, 0.90

00:53:08.340 like sign here to get Rosaria fired

00:53:10.240 and Kent Butterfield will look at that and say,

00:53:12.080 does this joker think you know somebody else is going to be homeschooling the kids and making

00:53:16.800 the communion bread you know so maybe it's easy for me to say but i think it is something that

00:53:22.300 all christians should be willing to say yes of course i'll lose my job for what is true

00:53:25.900 of course i will because the lord will take care of me i i can't deny christ

00:53:32.240 so anyway i mean i do think that there's a there's a kind of inculcated cowardice that is hiding under

00:53:41.240 the guise of um you know being winsome and you know and i do i mean i like the old definition

00:53:48.000 of winsome we're going to win some for the gospel right right yeah there's a lot of cowardice you're

00:53:56.240 right well what uh as we're coming to a close um maybe two questions what are what's maybe the the

00:54:02.960 biggest pushback that you got with this book what did people hate the most and then maybe what's the

00:54:09.020 the best encouragement? What did people like the most? Yeah. Okay. I don't, I'm going to probably

00:54:14.880 be very bad at answering both of those questions because I don't keep up with myself. So I am

00:54:22.640 often the last to know what people hate or what they love. And I am not on social media. I mean,

00:54:29.860 I know I am on social media, but not, you know, I'm not a player on social media. So, so there's

00:54:34.840 that. But from what my husband tells me, who does do a bit of lurking around, from what my husband

00:54:41.400 tells me, what people really don't like is the fact that I am articulating the way the Bible

00:54:52.320 anchors the gospel in creation and the way the New Testament anchors the repentance of sin and

00:55:03.620 even an understanding, a conceptualization of sin in something like the moral law of God.

00:55:09.680 So that is offensive.

00:55:12.300 That is troubling.

00:55:13.860 I mean, so troubling that even, you know, World Magazine said, I think she's adding to Scripture

00:55:20.460 when she says that women are called to be nurturing and men are called to be strong.

00:55:24.820 And, you know, oh, that's Genesis 127.

00:55:27.960 That's not adding.

00:55:28.800 But if you, you know, like, so that's, you know, I would say that would be the strongest opposition. And I think that the strongest appreciation is from moms and grandmas who have prodigals, who have been in weak, mealy-mouthed evangelical churches, who have been told, let's, here's this, you know, here's this podcast by, you know, West Hill or, you know,

00:55:58.700 let's think about this in terms of revoice or, and, and, you know, what they really don't want

00:56:05.080 is their child to die in their sin and they're willing to sacrifice everything, but they have

00:56:11.040 felt like the evangelical church is, is kind of, you know, cutting them off at the knees. And so

00:56:17.760 I've heard from those moms and grandmas, faithful prayer warriors that yes, I can hang on. I can

00:56:24.940 hang on to my daughter, but I can cling more strongly to Christ and that lying to my daughter

00:56:32.100 won't help her know Jesus. And I need to remember that my daughter is a prayed for child

00:56:40.440 and God's covenant is real. And those promises of the covenant are real, but I need to remain

00:56:47.520 faithful. And so that would be the, I think the strongest accolade is just the people who

00:56:53.700 understand that my encouragement in wanting you to see how we got here and why we got here 0.59

00:57:00.720 is so that you don't need to get a PhD in critical theory, because that would be dumb. 0.66

00:57:05.920 Don't do that. You need to be sanctified in your ignorance as well as your knowledge. 0.98

00:57:11.260 But we all need to help each other hang on to the promises of the Lord. And to that degree,

00:57:18.800 we would do well to prioritize our families and our churches all right well thank you so much for

00:57:25.100 coming on the show anyway uh any i don't know call to action or way that people can follow you

00:57:30.040 or check out other things that you're doing it sounds like you're not on social media very much

00:57:34.340 but maybe you could reference some of your other books if you want them to read them okay well i

00:57:38.480 have a website rosaria butterfield.com and i've written i've written a number of books and then

00:57:44.640 And often the new book is a correction of the old book.

00:57:47.740 So, you know, but, you know, my coming to Christ story was The Secret Thoughts of an

00:57:53.280 Unlikely Convert.

00:57:54.920 And then I've written a book called The Gospel Comes with a House Key.

00:58:00.920 And that answers that question of how I came to Christ basically in someone's living room

00:58:06.860 and how my husband and I have used our house, both when he was a church planter and now

00:58:12.900 when we're just old, to provide a place where we can have very clear and very pointed gospel

00:58:20.380 conversations. You know, Kent's theory is, you know, my hot dogs, my conversation. So that's

00:58:27.160 the gospel comes with the house key and then five lies. I don't really write a lot. I'm a homeschool

00:58:31.560 mom. I'm a teacher. About every six years or so, I get the bug to write a book. Right now,

00:58:38.120 I have a, the bug to start a Christian school in a classical Christian school in Durham. That's

00:58:43.080 kind of my next thing. So don't be looking for us. Yeah. We're working on the same thing here

00:58:46.660 in Georgetown. Oh, really? Okay. Well, we can, we can compare notes. Yeah. St. George Academy is,

00:58:52.100 you know, St. George Classical is our goal for 2024. So we'll see. All right. Slaying dragons.

00:58:57.760 Well, thank you so much for coming on the show. We appreciate it. Thank you, Pastor Joel. Lord

00:59:01.120 bless you. You too.

00:59:08.120 Thank you.

The NXR Podcast - November 28, 2023

THEOLOGY APPLIED - Feminism Thrives Most In One Place： The Church with Rosaria Butterfield

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