The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - Figuring Out This Whole “Postmillennial-Theonomy-Covenant Thing”

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, real quick before we get started, I have a small request. If you've been blessed by

00:00:04.360 our content and you like this show, would you take just a brief moment and leave us a five-star

00:00:09.000 review? This is quite possibly the most effective thing that you can do to ensure that this content

00:00:14.660 gets out to as many people as possible. Thanks. All right, welcome back to another episode of

00:00:20.080 Theology Applied. I'm your host, Pastor Joel Webin with Right Response Ministries. In this episode,

00:00:25.000 I was able to sit down and have a conversation with my friend, Jared Longshore. Jared Longshore

00:00:29.400 has been a part of Founders Ministries with Tom Askell in the past. He has now made the switch

00:00:34.780 officially. He is Presbyterian, Westminster affirming. He's in Moscow, Idaho with Doug

00:00:42.420 Wilson and Christchurch. He's one of the pastors there. And what we talk about in this episode is

00:00:48.500 just all the unity that we have and unfortunately, some of the division that we continue to have as

00:00:56.740 Reformed Baptist and Reformed Presbyterian brothers and sisters in the Lord. So we talk about

00:01:02.100 how we see an uprise on both sides of the aisle, Presbyterian or Baptist, in terms of eschatology,

00:01:08.680 hopeful eschatology, post-millennial eschatology, and the need for God's standard to be enforced

00:01:16.140 by the civil magistrate in our civil affairs as a society. So talking about theonomy and

00:01:23.720 different expressions of theonomy, but then also talking about the ways that we differ in our views

00:01:28.680 of the covenants. And of course, we also talk about that recent episode of Cross-Politic where

00:01:35.400 they said Baptist caused transgenderism. Baptist caused transgenderism. So we get Jared's take on

00:01:42.640 that and we laugh a little bit because we're friends and we're able to get over these kinds

00:01:47.560 of things. So tune in. I think you'll enjoy. Big news. Really big news. Our next Right Response

00:01:54.340 Conference is in the works. We've got a number of things already lined up and organized. This is

00:01:59.880 what we've got so far. The whole conference, three days long on post-millennialism and theonomy.

00:02:06.580 And the speakers, Dr. James White, Dr. Joseph Boot, Gary DeMar, and of course, yours truly,

00:02:13.860 Pastor Joel Webben. We've got a great lineup. We've got great topics. If you want to find out

00:02:19.560 dates and location and registration and anything else, go and visit our website,

00:02:26.060 rightresponseconference.com, rightresponseconference.com.

00:02:31.400 Applying God's word to every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied.

00:02:37.060 i mean obviously we could talk about the trans thing that's i mean that's super hot topic right

00:02:47.060 now i feel like it's dying down a little bit but did you guys have um did you have anybody it seemed

00:02:53.440 like there was some baptists are like hey it you know don't appreciate it but i get what they meant

00:02:58.960 it's not a big deal get over it but it seems like some guys are like i'm done with cross

00:03:04.220 did you guys get a lot of those if you think i'm trans i'm out of here

00:03:09.460 yeah what how like what has there been fallout uh i don't know i don't think so

00:03:18.460 you got i mean everybody's watching twitter so right you have uh you have twitter twitter people

00:03:25.400 doing twitter things um but i don't think that there's any real i don't think there's any real

00:03:32.920 issue here so i wrote one piece i wrote my follow-up and i'm like you guys to be all right

00:03:39.460 anybody that really knows cross-politic that has either watched it or ever been to a conference 0.68

00:03:44.240 knows like i can get on here and joke about you being trans because you know how ridiculous that 0.88

00:03:50.860 statement is nobody thinks that baptists are trans right nobody thinks that baptists are 0.81

00:03:56.840 directly causing um you know the trans chaos that we're seeing yeah um but there is an individual

00:04:05.240 expression thing that's an american and american baptist theology that maps right on to what finney

00:04:11.460 was doing and then you find people that got a little theology and a little church history and

00:04:15.840 they're going to argue for nuances and they're going to argue the 1689 confession came over to

00:04:19.460 philadelphia and went down to charleston and that there's been particular baptist reform baptist

00:04:23.060 influence in america for a long time and all that's fine but at the end of the day i mean

00:04:27.140 you've got roger olson who is an american baptist theologian saying a pathos that the majority of

00:04:34.340 american christians and american baptists are semi-pelagian so you still have to deal you have

00:04:40.380 to deal with the fact that the reformed baptist colonistic baptist world though it's big very big

00:04:45.440 in a kind of social media world it's still not the dominant no american baptist experience and

00:04:53.360 when you say american baptist and you're thinking rightly you're including all like the calvary

00:04:56.780 chapels and all the non-denoms that um you're using all the all the people that don't use the

00:05:02.580 term yeah but they are baptist uh so wedded to american evangelicalism so i think most of the

00:05:10.960 real reformed baptist guys know that i was going to tweet something at some point and say nobody

00:05:16.500 beats up on american baptists like reformed baptists i think that some of the guys some

00:05:24.280 of the 1689 leaning calvinistic leaning baptist guys that are upset i want to be like hold up now 0.94

00:05:30.420 hold up now if this was any kind of reformed baptist that was like smoking some ridiculous 0.85

00:05:36.700 steven verdict ridiculous any y'all would have been like yeah get them 0.91

00:05:41.280 don't let those don't let those presbyterians say nothing and especially probably with me on

00:05:48.800 the show i get that that's a it's like i'm a bit of a lightning rod at the moment yeah yeah

00:05:54.620 definitely and not because i'm some kind of crazy bad boy it's just because

00:05:58.620 yeah well because you were baptist

00:06:01.900 yeah it's just

00:06:04.160 yeah it's gonna

00:06:05.040 you were baptist not too long ago

00:06:07.420 that's one thing that I wanted to ask you

00:06:10.020 I feel like time is passing

00:06:11.760 you know we've had some conversations

00:06:13.620 since you made the switch

00:06:15.240 and you had to be

00:06:18.020 really careful about what you said

00:06:20.200 and when you said it but I feel like

00:06:21.880 as more time goes by and I feel like

00:06:24.020 there's nothing that I could ask you that would

00:06:25.740 your answer would be any more offensive than calling

00:06:27.980 baptist trans you know what i mean so i feel like you are you are you already stepped as far into

00:06:32.820 it as you possibly can so at this point i feel like everything everything's free game you could

00:06:37.280 be trans or you can just be a faithful christian which means you have to baptize your babies to be 0.97

00:06:41.700 those are the only two choices you're a pedo baptist or you are transgender did i stutter 0.96

00:06:49.280 that's what jason varley when he was like it's like wait but did you say yes i did yeah that i 0.97

00:06:57.240 I mean, part of it's just the rowdy, people aren't used to the rowdy fight, laugh, feast

00:07:02.140 kind of Christian culture. 0.87

00:07:03.900 So they're not like, it's like when a bunch of guys are in a room and they're sparring

00:07:08.060 and wrestling, every now and then somebody gets hit with an elbow and gets a black eye.

00:07:13.000 And then what you do when you're men and Christian men is you say, oh man, you got me good, but 0.94

00:07:20.420 that was a cheap shot. 1.00

00:07:21.440 Next time, please don't do that.

00:07:23.180 And then you move on.

00:07:24.320 You know what I mean?

00:07:24.800 And it's just like that, you know, when I'm flying solo with, you know, preaching, of

00:07:28.900 course, but then also podcasting, when you're sitting by yourself looking at a camera with

00:07:35.340 notes in front of you and your thoughts organized, there's just not as many casualties.

00:07:41.900 But I think that's part of it is not just a doctrinal issue, but it's a philosophical

00:07:47.800 issue in terms of just podcasting with a group of friends that fight and laugh and feast

00:07:54.740 together like it's just you know what i mean just certain things are gonna it's just it's just

00:07:59.880 different there are pros i think there are some strong pros to that uh to that style and i think

00:08:03.920 there are cons and one of the cons is that every now and then somebody might say that uh that

00:08:08.260 baptists cause transgenderism every now and then what do you think i just i think if people don't

00:08:17.680 want to if people don't want to watch cross politic don't watch cross politic i think i think

00:08:23.020 all the guys like watching cross-politic you're not no they have never made the claim that you're

00:08:28.540 sitting down and opening up herman bob inc they've never made the claim that you're for my reformed

00:08:33.000 brothers they've never made the claim that you're opening up nehemiah cox like those kind of great

00:08:38.420 and glorious articulations are there but sure i mean i have no issue with guys getting on podcasts

00:08:45.260 and, you know, doing a dialogue kind of form that's not as crisp and clean

00:08:50.620 as sometimes American evangelicals like it.

00:08:56.720 Right.

00:08:56.960 So, you know, yeah, there's a lot going on with what happened in that kind of deal.

00:09:03.220 You also have the covenant thing.

00:09:04.980 I find that we've been, you know, I've been to Fight, Laugh, Feast before together

00:09:09.440 and kind of had this conversation many times.

00:09:11.340 you you the camaraderie is very very thick and strong there and people know it like people feel

00:09:19.820 it um and that that's that's going on here in moscow too there's a there's a interesting unity

00:09:27.480 among the christians here and that that's the covenantal kind of thing like you start to say

00:09:33.040 this is my brother um and it's it's pretty tangible that this is my brother and sometimes

00:09:40.840 i think that's lost in translation when you're um between people on the internet they don't yeah

00:09:47.480 not only the the dialogue that's going on but they don't realize like you know how thick and strong

00:09:55.640 not only the fellowship yes but like this is very strong i think is what the guys try to communicate

00:10:01.480 after in their follow-up they're like you understand like you can come to the lord's table

00:10:05.080 with us we all come to the lord's table together um which is a kind of a different idea than

00:10:12.600 what happens across that westminster second london divide right there's there's a thing there

00:10:19.800 well because it's related to it's a one-way stream and not a two-way street like the

00:10:24.680 presbyterian just practically by nature of their position and their view of the covenant

00:10:29.160 can more practically and easily accommodate a Baptist believer at the Lord's table,

00:10:35.440 in baptism, right? 0.95

00:10:37.400 If you have a Credo Baptist family that's a member of Christ Church and say, 1.00

00:10:40.780 we don't want to baptize our kid, we want to wait for a credible profession of faith, 0.98

00:10:43.940 the Presbyterian can say, disagree, but okay.

00:10:47.240 You know what I mean?

00:10:47.600 It doesn't cause them to, you know, their conscience to be bound,

00:10:50.980 the pastors to where they feel like they have to deny membership or anything like that.

00:10:54.820 But it's just, and I don't think personally, I don't think it's because Presbyterians are

00:10:58.840 more charitable in terms of their character.

00:11:01.740 I think it's just the nature of that, their theological position.

00:11:04.420 It is the more practically accommodating position because it's not a two-way street between

00:11:09.700 the 1689 and the Westminster.

00:11:11.280 It is a one-way stream and I am 1689, but it's a one-way stream and the Presbyterians

00:11:16.580 are upstream, so to speak, to where it's like, okay, we hold this position and we can

00:11:21.380 accommodate that and and it but it doesn't which is why you have you know like someone like mark

00:11:26.100 dever that won't serve lig and duncan the lord's supper in his service um you know it because of

00:11:30.920 his baptist you know what i mean like that's a commonly known position yeah yeah that's the that

00:11:37.220 is the deal and both people are being consistent in their their outflows of the theological

00:11:42.580 structures you know so right and uh man this is like when it uh this was a weird uh it was a

00:11:50.300 personal anecdote but you know i was raised in a southern baptist church and i said in my follow-up

00:11:57.680 you know look guys not only was i baptist like 10 minutes ago but i was um i used to be an american

00:12:05.360 like the american baptist variety not the second london covenantal variety i said i still get a

00:12:12.020 pancreas to do an altar call sometime in the bed. I think everyone loves this American Baptist

00:12:21.780 culture. Everybody's got an American Baptist grandmother. And there's so many beautiful

00:12:30.460 things about it. Gospel straight up the middle things about it. And when the shift happened,

00:12:37.360 And, you know, the covenantal catastrophe of things shifting around, it was weird because it was more, it was this weird opening up of, like, I love my Baptist brothers just as much as I did when I was a Baptist, if not more.

00:13:02.340 and appreciate their consistency and appreciate the fight.

00:13:08.000 So that was a weird shift when it happens.

00:13:12.240 And some of it is just looking at Baptist identity,

00:13:15.840 even as, you know, they're sons of the Separatist Puritans. 0.93

00:13:20.000 That's what the real Reformed Baptists are. 0.86

00:13:22.820 And, you know, you have this fight in Baptist world 0.76

00:13:24.560 between the Anabaptists of the Reformation

00:13:27.220 and then the sons of the Puritans in England

00:13:29.820 that were the particular Baptists,

00:13:31.880 Reformed Baptists.

00:13:32.620 But that trajectory was

00:13:33.800 Roman Catholic Church,

00:13:36.460 Church of England,

00:13:38.440 pollutions. 1.00

00:13:39.720 You had the Puritans. 1.00

00:13:40.620 You had Puritans that wanted to stay 1.00

00:13:41.900 in the Church of England and purify it. 1.00

00:13:43.840 You had Puritans that wanted to 1.00

00:13:44.980 separate from the Church of England 1.00

00:13:46.400 and purify it. 0.96

00:13:47.780 And then of those separatist Puritans, 0.98

00:13:50.320 you have the Reformed Baptists 0.64

00:13:52.420 who are the separatists

00:13:54.820 of the separatist Puritans.

00:13:56.740 That's their position.

00:13:57.900 And they do this in order to keep a pure church, regenerate church membership.

00:14:02.620 And I think I read somewhere, this is early 1600s, when you have the first Reformed Baptist church, you might say, particular Baptist church there in England.

00:14:12.920 But I think I read somewhere that Jeremiah Burroughs, the Puritan Jeremiah Burroughs, Peter Baptist, blessed those who went to do it.

00:14:22.900 I can't remember where, but I remember just coming across it at some point.

00:14:25.440 And I thought, well, that's an awesome moment of unity.

00:14:27.900 And there's still a ton of community, but the impulse of that, of the Reformed Baptists really is like, hey, we can't baptize these infants because we're bringing them into the church. 0.91

00:14:38.340 And if we bring unregenerate people into the church, we're going to pollute the church. 0.95

00:14:42.400 And the church is the pillar and buttress of the truth.

00:14:45.360 And so this is a this is a big deal.

00:14:47.860 And so to be in that camp and think that way, I understand what Reformed Baptist brothers that know what they're thinking about, how they would think about what happened when I came.

00:15:01.600 like oh you just stepped from the separatist puritan position um to more of a puritan within

00:15:09.920 the church tradition and that feels like a um a corruption of the church which is eventually going

00:15:17.920 to erode the gospel being preached on earth but it's weird because when you make that shift

00:15:24.240 you go from

00:15:25.960 like you said

00:15:28.460 like saying on principle

00:15:29.640 we won't have

00:15:32.560 certain of these paedo-baptist

00:15:33.920 people at the table because we don't think they're 0.93

00:15:36.480 baptized

00:15:36.800 and then you shift to this

00:15:40.440 weird, it's like oh boy

00:15:42.320 now

00:15:43.080 now as a minister of the

00:15:46.520 gospel here

00:15:48.480 at Christ Church in Moscow

00:15:49.440 we have 1.00

00:15:50.840 paedo-baptists and credo-baptists

00:15:54.200 there and they come and it's it's a weird shift where it's not as um it's just not as much of a

00:16:01.980 thing right um once you once you make that shift over so trying to find ways to communicate um

00:16:09.300 that is important like how do we you know how do you talk knowing how your brothers are thinking

00:16:16.140 that are still in the reformed baptist world all of that but it's a little bit of the background

00:16:20.800 of the ship. Yeah. And yeah, that, that makes a lot of sense. And I think, I think there's even

00:16:25.580 more to it than that. I think, you know, so, so at some level, yeah, some, some particular Baptists

00:16:31.240 are thinking we want to keep the church pure with a regenerate church membership, and we don't want

00:16:35.000 to compromise, but it's in your case, it's, I think, you know, Reformed Baptists who may be

00:16:39.660 watching this would say, yeah, okay, Jared, but it's, it's not just that you went from Reformed

00:16:46.000 Baptist to Presbyterian, but you went from Reformed Baptist to a particular Presbyterian

00:16:52.160 church within a particular Presbyterian denomination, CREC and Doug Wilson. And I think

00:16:58.440 they would say that like, and I love Doug Wilson, so I'm not one of these guys who would say this,

00:17:03.040 but I know there are plenty of Reformed Baptists that say, we've got our problems with the OPC

00:17:08.560 and we have we have 10 more problems with with Doug Wilson like I'm thinking of you know the 0.59

00:17:16.260 James White you know not the paedo communionism but when they you know talked about baptism in

00:17:21.440 terms of is a Catholic Roman Catholic baptism valid right and Doug was arguing the affirmative

00:17:26.660 because they're baptized into the triune name now the father the son and the Holy Spirit

00:17:32.200 James White taking the position yeah but Rome has denied the gospel on paper in the Council of Trent

00:17:37.740 never recanted it. They anathematized the gospel. And so if you, you know, and so it's like, and

00:17:43.460 part of that has to do with who do you think the baptizer is? Who is baptizing? You know,

00:17:48.520 is the church baptizing or is this God's claim? Is God baptizing? Is the church represent, like

00:17:54.420 all those things come into play. But my point is with Doug Wilson, particularly in the Moscow crew

00:17:59.880 that you're now a part of, not just a part of, but a pastor in, I think some guys would say,

00:18:04.480 man, that thing, you know, some Reformed Baptists would point to Doug as a case study to prove

00:18:11.100 their concern that like, if you go Presbyterian, it's not just that you're more ecumenical in a

00:18:17.840 charitable fashion, but you actually do open the door for corruption and compromising the purity

00:18:26.800 of the gospel. And yeah, Doug Wilson or Federal Vision or this and that, you know, it seems like

00:18:31.740 They're getting a little bit Catholic every now and then.

00:18:33.480 What would you say to that? 0.84

00:18:36.440 Well, those guys, I disagree with them.

00:18:39.260 I think they're wrong.

00:18:40.120 But they're right to point out that there's a difference between the ministry out here in Moscow and what you're getting kind of by and large in American Presbyterianism.

00:18:53.820 so um i i've talked to one um one scottish presbyterian which is always dangerous because

00:19:03.980 the accent immediately convinces you that they're right doesn't matter what they say

00:19:08.720 you know just like you're just dead you're just in trouble um it was very interesting in this

00:19:14.100 this um older older brother uh great um theologian all that kind of stuff would actually

00:19:22.300 said um he said oh jared the american despedidians have lost their heritage and i was like oh boy so

00:19:33.900 um it was interesting for him across the pond to to say um you had a whole bunch of stuff with the

00:19:42.220 fv you know let's talk about the fv stuff sure he had a whole bunch of stuff um but it was interesting

00:19:47.260 that he said you know though there were certain people in that fb movement he said that we're

00:19:53.820 really um pursuing something good and right so i thought that was fascinating it's still

00:20:00.640 you know it's still the third rail right now and or at least was i don't know where really

00:20:05.960 the conversation lies at the moment but it was very clear to me what do you what do you mean

00:20:10.880 the third rail oh the third rail means like like a it's like a lightning rod it's like you touch

00:20:15.820 you're right right right it's the dirty word you can throw out there right you know um it would be 0.91

00:20:21.340 like saying hey all baptists are trans oh you guys oh you guys if you go first you're gonna go out

00:20:28.280 feed that kind of thing right um but that was very interesting to me to go okay there was a

00:20:33.840 on the covenantal level there was some um there were there are some clear differences between

00:20:41.380 kind of a robust historic uh position and the way a lot of people are thinking about it now

00:20:48.220 it was interesting like on on this would be an interesting point i was reading um uh it's john

00:20:54.980 ball john i found john ball and john owen both talk this way um and you know i want to double

00:21:03.140 check but almost positive say i'm 90 that they talk this way about cain being in the covenant

00:21:10.380 of grace and you're like whoa okay right so you come from a uh from a reformed baptist position

00:21:19.280 especially the 1689 federalist position it's going to talk about the covenant of grace revealed and

00:21:23.420 inaugurated right not administered not administered in the old and not administered in abraham

00:21:28.700 but then you find these these older presbyterians and i side note you find a lot of nuance in the

00:21:37.480 covenantal conversation if you go back and look at the kind of original covenant theologians

00:21:42.520 and you find you find more nuance back then than you do now and if you start to talk with nuance

00:21:49.960 now and like in our context you can get in big trouble in a hurry like it's a very tense kind

00:21:56.160 of conversation people are quick to say you know that you're going to be heretic or you're moving

00:22:01.040 toward heresy and i find when i read the older stuff no the guys are articulating it different

00:22:05.540 Wex. Nevertheless, that idea that Cain himself was in the Covenant of Grace,

00:22:11.280 signaling that not only was the Covenant of Grace revealed back there in Genesis 3.15,

00:22:19.860 not only revealed to Adam, but it was actually made with Adam, such that you had the physical

00:22:25.720 church. I think I read Owen recently saying, like, before Cain's rebellion was the time when

00:22:31.620 the church was truly catholic or truly visible and saying that every like all of humanity was in

00:22:37.660 it you're saying john owen said that yeah and that's a pretty fascinating idea just finding

00:22:44.240 any way to talk and think like whoa i mean so the whole all humanity was in the church you know

00:22:49.760 before cain and then cain's uh exile is a further exile uh so it's a proto excommunication kind of

00:22:57.180 that's what's going on with him like the line of like genesis chapter 10 the line of seth and the

00:23:01.900 line of king city of man going off and this separate shoot yeah yeah um yeah you got an

00:23:10.360 interesting connection there i'm just thinking about his further exile when he wanders the earth

00:23:13.740 would be the example of him being exiled from the covenant community um so at any rate that's

00:23:20.700 that's some of the interesting thinking that's going on okay i'm there's historic ways of

00:23:26.560 thinking about this that's not just saying um that everything started with abraham um and so

00:23:34.440 you're you're going to find some differences going on there that are going to inform the way that

00:23:38.440 people are thinking about culture the way that people think about various things right i i

00:23:44.980 remember having a conversation with ad robles about federal vision stuff and kind of going back

00:23:50.620 a little bit five minutes in our conversation like i think you know both of us were able to

00:23:55.500 recognize he wouldn't adhere to federal vision. As far as I can tell, I can't, you know, even if I

00:24:00.920 wanted to, which I don't, but consistently as a Baptist, but we both were able to recognize,

00:24:06.800 I think that like what you said is true, the good intentions, it seems like, and it kind of goes

00:24:11.380 back to the whole Baptists are trans, but what we meant was American Baptists and individualism and

00:24:16.220 those kinds of things. It seems like, you know, what a lot of these guys were trying to do, for

00:24:20.580 one, there's a spectrum within the federal vision guys, you know, Peter Lightheart and Doug wouldn't

00:24:25.040 wouldn't see eye to eye on exactly on some of those things. But, um, but it seems like it was

00:24:29.500 trying to set up a hedge of protection against a bunch of people who had no assurance of salvation

00:24:33.700 that America had become American Christianity had become so in your, you know, your own internal

00:24:42.120 identity and, and how much sincerity did I have and the size of our faith rather than the object

00:24:48.400 of our faith and personal decision, decisionism, revivalism, these kinds of things and atomistic,

00:24:54.340 you know, and, um, such a, um, just no, no view of covenant that I, it was kind of like trying

00:25:01.860 to set up some kind of metric, um, for helping people to not spend their entire Christian life

00:25:07.840 thinking that they were going to hell. Like there's, there's a standard, there's a metric

00:25:11.540 for determining, um, do I belong to Christ or do I know, you know? And, um, and so I think a lot of

00:25:18.060 it was, you know, and so I find myself not using the same standards, but I find myself often as a

00:25:25.120 Baptist, you know, 1689 pastor. I mean, the bulk I feel like of pastoral counsel is in the realm of

00:25:31.780 assurance of salvation. Like at some ways, shape or form, that's what it just about always comes to

00:25:36.900 is, you know, wanting to assure a person rightly that they actually have union with Christ and

00:25:46.600 that they're doubting that and shoring them up in the gospel, um, to then motivate them in

00:25:52.260 repentance and in obedience. And so, um, so to be able to say like, here are some, some objective

00:25:59.420 outward, not just inward subjective feelings, but outward signs and seals that a person actually

00:26:06.540 belongs to Christ. I think that was a lot of the incentive that I've been able in the little

00:26:11.420 brief study and that I've done with looking back on some of the federal vision stuff. I think

00:26:16.540 it's, it's likened to that debate with, you know, Doug Wilson and James White, you know, over a Roman

00:26:22.780 Catholic baptism. It's just trying to say like, you know, um, does it, does, does the legitimacy,

00:26:29.880 the validity of a baptism rest on, on, on that church's faithfulness to the gospel and its

00:26:36.900 preaching of the gospel? Uh, the, you know, I mean, because there are, you know, and it's ironically

00:26:42.800 Catholics do this, but like there, there have been huge moments in church history where, um, 0.99

00:26:48.900 an entire, you know, an entire sector of individuals all of a sudden, uh, lose every

00:26:54.140 ounce of assurance because this priest baptized this person and this person and this person,

00:26:59.060 and then ordained this other priest and he baptized this person. But it turns out that

00:27:03.060 this priest, when he was first ordained, you work up the chain. And when this guy, uh, was first

00:27:08.580 ordained, they didn't say the words right in his ordination and they missed, missed a word. And so

00:27:12.820 his ordination is not valid, which means everyone that he ordained is not, uh, have a valid ordination

00:27:17.980 and everyone they baptize therefore does not have a, like, and it, you know, you know, and so trying

00:27:22.880 to like how, how much of the legitimacy of, of our baptism and more importantly, our faith, uh,

00:27:29.520 have to do with, um, with sincerity and some of these inward things versus these outward objective,

00:27:35.820 uh signs and seals um and i feel like that's what it was they were trying to accomplish

00:27:42.120 there's a lot of a lack of assurance going on um in the evangelical church today you have some of

00:27:47.640 that you have presumption too so you have both of the things operating but the um the the lack

00:27:54.020 of assurance thing is a problem and it's interestingly connected to the individualism

00:27:57.340 conversation because the what is a person doing that's that's lacking assurance say uh without

00:28:03.160 without warrant like they're just it's not like this person is involved in grievous sin

00:28:07.560 um but say this person's just thinking you know how can i know that i know that i know

00:28:12.640 um i remember hearing like so john piper back in the day say you know don't look in like you can't

00:28:18.540 don't there's no center to that onion memory of this great line that's and that's true yeah i

00:28:23.780 think it's rutherford for every one look to self take 10 looks to christ so you have you have some

00:28:29.100 of that going on but with the with the lack of assurance it's um well it's just kind of me it's

00:28:36.520 just i need to i need to look entirely to myself um and it's a it's a selfie kind of thing well

00:28:42.880 no you need to look to god and then you need to love the brothers right um right it is it's by

00:28:49.820 your fruit you don't know them um so but that's that's a corporate thing like who are my brothers

00:28:56.200 Well, love them, care for them. And there's going to be evidence in that. And this is where the covenantal idea comes in again, where we know, all right, I know who my brothers are and I'm going to, I'm going to love them. I'm going to serve them. And as I do, that's going to, that's going to bear fruit.

00:29:13.600 I mentioned this in my follow-up to the cross-politic episode, that I find this happening with all of the social justice stuff.

00:29:26.220 So you have these intersectional, you not only have intersectional victim identities, they're intersectional corporate victim identities, right?

00:29:38.100 so it's not just something that a person's claiming like i am white or i'm black white's

00:29:42.980 not a not one of the victim categories of course i'm black i'm i'm uh whatever lady female gay 0.97

00:29:51.100 all of that but you're when you buy into one of them trans bad you're bad is trans 0.80

00:29:57.060 that's a victim category now there are the oppressors that's right absolutely 0.95

00:30:06.200 Yes. I remember suffering repression. I remember. I still have that memory.

00:30:18.280 When somebody claims one of these, my point is they're actually buying into the corporate deal.

00:30:25.560 And I think that this is because people are, I wrote something like they're lonely, isolationist, individual expressionists.

00:30:34.400 and they want a community they want like a visible community a corporate identity and the

00:30:40.900 beauty is we have all of that we covenant christians christians are thinking covenantally

00:30:46.060 have that you say well there's your brother um there he's baptized in the triune name and he's

00:30:50.880 at the lord's table with you he's in your church like there he is and you have this you have this

00:30:56.540 clear line drawn and you you are a part of these people now and i that will help um with the

00:31:04.060 person like they don't just have to it's not just a matter of personal soul searching within one's

00:31:08.660 own own life look at your fruit you know test yourself to see if you're in the faith amen um

00:31:14.800 look at look at the works you're doing but then look around at the brothers and sisters that

00:31:18.720 you're with these are your covenant people are you with the covenant people yeah you're with

00:31:22.820 the covenant people um and that that corporate identity thing will would leave no room for these

00:31:30.060 ridiculous victim identity statuses we put all of the the ones that are real would be put in their

00:31:35.780 appropriate place like you your ethnicity is a real kind of thing the ones that don't even exist 0.96

00:31:41.880 like being trans is not even a thing and it would eradicate those as well as we recover the 0.97

00:31:49.140 covenantal idea yeah agreed let's talk for a little bit about so you know this is my suspicion

00:31:57.300 and I'm sure I'm wrong at some level, but it doesn't seem like you switched over solely because

00:32:04.760 you wanted to baptize babies. I think if I had to guess, I think you would say, okay,

00:32:12.300 but the covenantal issue is foundational. It may not be the tip of the spear, but it's the bedrock.

00:32:22.620 It's the foundational thing that gave me the framework theologically for all these other

00:32:26.500 things. But what I'm saying is, um, it doesn't just seem like that's, that's the difference

00:32:31.120 between, uh, where you have been in the past in your ministry and where you are now. Um, it seems

00:32:38.000 like it's, it's not just baptism, it's theonomy, it's post-millennialism. So it's, it's eschatology.

00:32:43.760 It's all these different things. For instance, like just looking at some of the problems in

00:32:47.860 the church, I think you would, you know, I think you recently wrote a blog where you said, um,

00:32:52.200 yeah, I don't think that the chief and only problem in the church is pragmatism. I think

00:32:59.060 it's a lot deeper that like the, your rhetoric has changed and it hasn't just changed on

00:33:03.840 to baptize or to not baptize babies. It's, you know, your view, it seems like you've always

00:33:10.680 been a guy who believes in, you know, in the use of the law of God, not just as a mirror to reveal

00:33:15.960 our need for Christ, but as a lamp unto our feet. But even that has changed in terms of,

00:33:20.680 Okay, which laws? And the civil magistrate's obligation to, what obligation do they have?

00:33:28.440 Is there this John Locke natural law or is it divine law? So all those kinds of things have

00:33:34.220 changed. And I feel like there's a lot of Baptists like myself who are not persuaded of

00:33:39.600 pedo-baptism. We're not persuaded of the Westminster view of the covenants, but we are

00:33:43.840 very much persuaded that when the enemy comes in like a flood, the Lord raises up a standard

00:33:49.300 against him like that we need um we need god's law we need um we need a better standard um and

00:33:58.060 there's a lot of guys too who are like flooding in with post-millennialism i i talk to baptists

00:34:03.520 all the time like so which one says which one says that we get to fight and says that we we

00:34:08.800 have a chance at winning the fight yeah that i believe that one right and they haven't sorted

00:34:14.380 out their view of the covenants yet they you know what i mean they haven't sorted out their view of

00:34:18.460 baptism, but they're just like, yeah, like I love some of these 1689 Baptist guys, but a lot of them

00:34:25.020 are not willing. And so it's like, we've got all these, it's weird, like, because, because it's on

00:34:30.040 the Presbyterian side too. And I know you would say, well, that, that, that Presbyterians being

00:34:33.520 inconsistent, you know, with, with their covenant theology, but we've got plenty of radical too.

00:34:38.280 We've got Westminster Escondido. That's not Baptist. That's Presbyterian. We have pietist

00:34:43.200 Presbyterians on the Baptist side. We've got some, some rough and tumble fighting post-millennial 0.99

00:34:48.320 Baptist. And, and, and maybe we're being inconsistent. But, but we've got some Baptists 0.65

00:34:54.480 who are willing to fight we've, and we've got some Presbyterians who are absolutely not willing 0.51

00:34:58.640 to fight. But then on the Baptist side, we also have like this growing, well, like, like this

00:35:05.260 growing pietistic reform Baptist expression of, and it seems like if you like trying, if you could

00:35:13.260 only ask one question and try to determine, is this, is this Baptist a theonomic post-millennial

00:35:17.980 baptist or are they more of a pietistic uh baptist like uh you you can ask them what they

00:35:23.300 think about thomas aquinas and get down isn't the kingdom of god amazing yes so wonderful

00:35:30.680 yeah different rooms right you were very interesting path there though because you

00:35:37.080 are right that covenant is the thing all right so the difference between baptist and and paedo

00:35:43.060 is covenant it really like um that's the thing in attendant to covenant is are some of these

00:35:53.460 other things like everyone in american evangelicalism now is working through

00:36:00.360 issues of standard um you know so the aquinas thing is interestingly a part of that conversation

00:36:06.500 um yeah it absolutely because it comes down to sola scriptura aquinas is saying like no we need

00:36:12.600 this extra thing. We need Plato's metaphysics and these kinds of, and then you, you bring those

00:36:17.340 things in and, and it's like, it's this, I, and I'm not smart enough to get all of it, but you,

00:36:21.600 you work down the line and, and that's where you get kind of like your John Lockean natural law.

00:36:27.060 That's, that's, that's, that's basically like the, the, the foolproof scotch of divine law,

00:36:34.280 the 10 commandments, moral law, but watered down and you get this, whereas I would see natural law

00:36:39.740 moral law is synonymous, all 10 commandments written on the heart of man, you know, but that,

00:36:45.220 but that's, but it's the Aquinas, it's not even, my concern isn't doctrine of God. And that sounds

00:36:51.100 horrible. I care about theology proper and doctrine of God, but I don't, my, my, my concern,

00:36:56.160 because I would agree with the doctrine of simplicity and I would agree with the Thomist

00:37:00.180 on, on some of these things in terms of ad intra, you know, extra in terms of how God knows himself.

00:37:07.220 And I think, you know, we don't know what was in the mind of God 15 minutes before he created the world.

00:37:11.440 So you can go too far with it.

00:37:12.740 But I, I would call myself loosely, you know, a classical theism is what I would prescribe to my doctrine of God.

00:37:19.900 But these same guys, my concern is these same guys doing this with the doctrine of God also happen to be some of the same guys who, when I announced that I'm going to be doing a conference on postmillennialism and theonomy with James White and Dr. Boot and Gary DeMar, these guys were real upset with me about that.

00:37:35.820 the guys yeah um well i don't want to chase the theonomy and the aquinas train too hard but

00:37:43.840 i might i will touch on that but the point i was making is oh you're right you kind of pointed out

00:37:49.100 that people are really working through the eschatology thing the law thing the the church

00:37:54.700 and the world thing christendom kind of thing um and so you have there's a lot of guys that are

00:37:59.460 baptists that are that are working through all that i would want to underscore that you have

00:38:03.260 this historically yeah reading murray's uh the puritan hope and um you know praise god there's

00:38:11.040 a way you know you can be baptist and post-millennial and um not be convinced of

00:38:16.660 paedo-baptism and not be convinced of paedo-covenant theology um that's happened and

00:38:22.120 happens now and so that's that's a thing people should i i think there's great there's a there's

00:38:28.240 a lot of unity that's happening around people this is this is where i want to go and i signaled

00:38:32.560 this in my follow-up to cross-politic there are baptists and pedo-baptists that are thinking

00:38:36.960 covenantally um which is good different covenantally but they're both thinking covenantally

00:38:41.480 there are baptist pedo-baptists that are thinking either post-millennially or some kind of optimistic

00:38:47.000 amillennialism and i think that's that's really good as well there are baptists and pedo-baptists

00:38:52.520 that are saying um we're not talking about taking the the um the old testament judicial law and

00:39:01.080 dropping it in cold turkey in a modern state it ended that that old testament judicial law

00:39:07.600 was abrogated and ended with that with its own uh israelite old covenant administration

00:39:12.680 i've said that a bunch of times i think people know that at least where i stand on that i think

00:39:17.360 on that what we're saying is that god's law um is actually to form into shape how do we do law now

00:39:25.240 we're to pay attention to that and we're even to pay attention to that old testament judicial law

00:39:29.280 and see the wisdom of God in it, and then apply it.

00:39:32.900 I think there's a lot of, in that mix of the theonomic conversation,

00:39:40.200 my buddy Timon Klein here is doing all kinds,

00:39:43.600 I mean, just wrote a piece against public atheism.

00:39:46.980 Klein has written publicly against theonomy,

00:39:50.220 and then has advocated very strongly for saying, like,

00:39:53.880 essentially the christian um the christian faith christianity revealed the faith once

00:40:00.120 for all delivered to the saints must inform uh any any civilization that's going to be just right

00:40:05.840 good true and beautiful like this is this is plain and simple so you have these everyone's

00:40:13.060 discovering these kinds of things right now and you referred to my yes those kind of things were

00:40:19.960 going on um you know and i didn't i didn't see the connections that um i eventually saw but that

00:40:30.320 was it's a very fascinating time to be in kind of reformed evangelical christendom right now

00:40:37.100 given the cultural changes that are happening and the way people are starting to think about

00:40:42.420 these things right and um i think there's a great amount of unity and i think that that will continue

00:40:48.700 to be maintained and fostered, but I do find that you're going to have different approaches to

00:40:54.000 dealing with the issue. Take the social justice stuff. I do think there are good and godly men

00:41:03.120 that have checked the social justice stuff. They're not woke at all, but they're checking it

00:41:09.540 mainly on individual rights and liberties principles. It's mainly the way that people

00:41:18.280 are thinking about it and there's other people that are checking it um and saying well yes and

00:41:23.280 amen to the fact that we are still individuals we're not denying that um but there's also um

00:41:29.760 we're checking it more on the grounds of this is unjust there are corporate identities there's

00:41:37.000 principles of restitution that kind of thing but we're checking this on the fact that you're either

00:41:42.020 going to have um divine justice true justice or you're going to have man's justice social justice

00:41:49.540 early justice they're cutting it along those lines and i think we need to we really need to

00:41:54.820 move into that latter um part which is related to a number of the doctrines that you just mentioned

00:42:00.260 yep i agree yeah just for our listeners when i say that i am theonomic that it's just like with

00:42:06.100 any doctrine there's a wide spectrum of you know and i think people are bothered by the theonomy

00:42:11.300 word, because they immediately equate a theonomist with somebody who is lockstep with Rush

00:42:19.640 Duny, which by the way, I've been reading a lot of Rush Duny lately, and I think he's

00:42:23.780 fantastic.

00:42:24.720 I don't know if I'm lockstep with him, but I think people would do well to read some

00:42:29.900 Rush Duny.

00:42:30.440 I think that he was brilliant.

00:42:32.220 But all that being said, when I say theonomy, I'm not saying that I like the way that you

00:42:35.640 said, I'm not saying that we take the civil law, the judicial law given to Israel under

00:42:39.420 the old covenant and drop it, um, right now into America and 2022. Um, but I, but I do think it's

00:42:46.720 beyond cause some guys that, you know, the general equity, you know, like, so, um, Doug, Doug Wilson,

00:42:53.060 general equity, uh, theonomy, I, I would adhere to that, you know, so it's, but, but I think the

00:42:58.700 question is not just, what do we do with the judicial law? That's been kind of classically

00:43:02.260 I'm discovering. That's been the, the, the dividing line for, um, are you a theonomist or

00:43:08.000 not? What do you do with the judicial law? And, and so a lot of guys would say, we don't like

00:43:13.440 theonomy. And so we don't like Jared and Joel, what they're doing. And then when we clarify,

00:43:17.920 like you just did, they say, okay, then we're okay with that. And we're okay with that precisely

00:43:22.580 because you're not theonomous. So stop using the word. And I would say, no, I think we still are

00:43:27.060 in the theonomic realm in that orbit, because it's not just what do you do with the judicial law,

00:43:32.760 but it's also, what do you do with the first table of the moral law? What do you do with the first

00:43:37.740 four, right? Because everybody, I think, would say, yeah, the civil magistrate, in terms of love

00:43:43.920 for neighbor, commandments five through 10, you know, like, this should, and even that you still

00:43:50.880 have to, you know, you have to distinguish between crimes and sins, right? Because we don't want the

00:43:54.240 coveting police, you know, Doug has said that, he's absolutely right. But I guess what I'm leading

00:43:59.320 up to is, I would say I'm theonomic, because I think all 10 of the commandments, that the civil

00:44:04.400 magistrate has a vested interest and not just an interest, but a duty with all 10, including the

00:44:10.020 first table of the law, idolatry, no other gods before me, blasphemy, taking the Lord's name in

00:44:16.400 vain, the Sabbath, right? That's what it gets at. Should we have Sabbath laws, right? We've done

00:44:20.460 that before. It's not crazy. We've done it before. Maybe taking it too far. I'm in Texas, right? I

00:44:25.620 mean, still in Texas on Sunday, there's a ton of places that don't open till noon. Why? Because

00:44:30.220 uh sunday mornings for church you know what i mean even in 2022 or liquor stores you can't buy

00:44:36.320 liquor on some go ahead sorry god bless texas god bless texas right so texas needs some help

00:44:42.640 though texas is getting mighty purple um so but but with us california are moving there no it's

00:44:48.760 because texas kids are growing up what say that again california are moving

00:44:55.340 no it's not me i think the californians who are moving to texas left california for a reason i

00:45:03.420 think it's all these texas kids who grew up in public schools sadly you know so um so let me

00:45:08.680 read this to you this is westminster confession of faith so i'm just going to assume that you

00:45:12.760 believe it but what westminster confession of faith chapter 23 section 3 because this is what

00:45:20.260 you won't get from, so like our G3 brothers, love the G3 guys, even founders, obviously you love

00:45:28.160 founders and those guys. But this is the question that I don't know if some of these, I would just

00:45:33.460 be curious how they would answer it. I'm not saying they're on the wrong side. I don't even

00:45:36.040 know what side that they take. You would know more than me in this matter. But the general equity for

00:45:41.900 the judicial law, yes and amen. I'm right there. But in terms of the 10 commandments and the civil

00:45:47.260 magistrate's obligation to enforce, especially the first four of the Ten Commandments, this is

00:45:51.760 what the Westminster Confession of Faith, chapter 23, section three says. The civil magistrate may

00:45:56.400 not assume to himself the administration of the word and sacraments, amen, or the power of the

00:46:02.160 keys of the kingdom of heaven, excommunication, binding and loosing, amen. Yet he has authority

00:46:07.360 and it is his duty. He's responsible to take order, and I take that to mean in society,

00:46:14.620 to take order that unity and peace be preserved in the church, that the truth of God be kept pure 0.51

00:46:22.700 and entire, the civil magistrate, that the truth of God be kept pure and entire, that all blasphemies

00:46:30.200 and heresies be suppressed, all corruptions and abuses in worship and discipline prevented or

00:46:37.460 reformed and all the ordinances of God duly settled, administrated, and observed. And I would

00:46:46.940 just, it goes on and talks about them being present at synods. They wouldn't be able to cast a vote,

00:46:51.200 but if there was a council or synod, members of the civil magistrate could be present with that,

00:46:55.360 although it would be a church affair. And in that regard, it's thoroughly Presbyterian.

00:47:00.220 And, uh, you know, for me, 1689, it's like, uh, councils and synods, we've got nothing

00:47:05.680 C C point a local church.

00:47:07.800 But, but my point is the civil magistrate, um, has, has not only the right, but the responsibility

00:47:13.640 according to, and I would agree with that portion of the Westminster wholeheartedly

00:47:17.100 that, uh, that it's, and that's not talking about, uh, they have a duty to, um, to punish

00:47:23.380 theft, uh, a breach of the eighth commandment or, or perjury, a breach of the ninth commandment

00:47:28.620 or murder, breach of the sixth commandment, but blasphemies and heresies. And I personally do

00:47:36.820 think, so I'm a general equity guy. I don't think it should be a one-to-one ratio with the judicial

00:47:41.260 law. I think we need to get to the general equity there and apply that with wisdom. But I do think

00:47:47.760 that in a perfect post-millennial theonomic newly constructed Christodom, which I'm working for,

00:47:55.400 you're working for. We're on different sides of the aisle, but we're on the same team.

00:47:59.780 I think that with that, if by God's grace, we could accomplish that or our grandkids could 1.00

00:48:04.420 accomplish that, I think it would look like you can't have a mosque. So you don't go into someone's 1.00

00:48:12.180 house privately that's a Muslim worshiping in their home, right? I think that sin, crime, 1.00

00:48:17.060 just the same way somebody's publicly intoxicated is different than if they get drunk in their home.

00:48:21.400 drunk in the home, still sin. They're going to be judged before God, but the civil magistrate

00:48:25.500 does not have the duty to go in there. But what about public blasphemy? Which I don't know what

00:48:32.540 a mosque is other than public blasphemy. What do you think about that public idolatry? Everybody's 1.00

00:48:40.000 committing idolatry in their hearts. The heart is an idol making factory. John Calvin, even the

00:48:44.180 Christian is committing the sin of idolatry on a regular basis. But having other gods be formed 0.77

00:48:51.380 me publicly and the civil magistrate having a vested interest and responsibility to suppress

00:48:57.060 blasphemies and heresies. I look at that and I, and I would say, wherever I am on this theonomic

00:49:02.700 issue, I think that's what makes me theonomic. I think that's where some of my G3 brothers who I

00:49:07.280 love would say, yeah, okay. Yeah. You're, you're a theonomist and we disagree with you because,

00:49:12.760 because none of them would, would have any beef over the general equity with, you know,

00:49:16.560 they don't have a problem with that. The general equity thing is not the sticking point. I think

00:49:20.220 the sticking point is does the civil magistrate have a responsibility to enforce all 10 of of

00:49:25.860 the moral law yeah there's a lot going on with that uh in those dynamics in that what do you do

00:49:32.120 with the first table and how's it actually going to play itself out and i do think that's going to

00:49:35.740 be a big um we just have to do a lot of work on it because people aren't thinking in those

00:49:41.040 categories and i do think there are qualifications that need to be made when we have the conversation

00:49:45.660 um i i think it is exactly right and necessary that there be a public acknowledgement of the

00:49:53.160 triune god yes for uh any just good true beautiful nation and i love the fact that we already do that

00:50:00.940 so i've said hey he's on our money he's carved into our buildings and all of those kinds of

00:50:07.420 things um briefly on the westminster i would want to i i would want to qualify their language

00:50:13.720 so i'm not i'm not quite as hard in the paint as you are on that

00:50:17.240 um so i want there's a um and this could be my own um my own country american ways but i do want

00:50:26.620 them to stay in their lane i don't want them yes there are these fears and i think that some of

00:50:31.600 that westminster language there uh blurs that lane i want to say hold on now in our in a mere

00:50:36.960 christendom we're going to have the home as the place of with the ministry of education

00:50:43.260 welfare health uh and we're gonna have the church at the center of the town there's the cathedral

00:50:49.760 and their ministry is ministry of grace and peace right this is what they're they're preaching good

00:50:56.220 news and the state's job is to execute justice that's their job and will that um if they do it

00:51:04.200 right and they do it under the lordship of christ they do it under god all of that um well yes then

00:51:09.560 that's going to that's going to result in welfare for the church inevitably it's going to happen

00:51:15.040 but i want to make sure that they stay in that lane they are not the ministry of the church they

00:51:19.780 don't have the ministry of the church so those are at least the clear lines um but there's a lot

00:51:25.780 being written on this point right now and it's very much related to what's going on secularism

00:51:31.320 is collapsing it's yes it's evident and the rise of paganism and creature worship is what's

00:51:37.980 informing our society. I'm convinced of that. That's why we're coming up with man-made laws 0.56

00:51:41.920 that we're claiming our justice when they're not. And the idea that you would go back to,

00:51:48.420 well, just human reason, like as if things are self-evident. Well, you can't do that once God,

00:51:55.080 what are you doing? God gives over a nation to a debased mind to do what not to be done.

00:51:59.700 All your appeals to human reason and rationalism. Well, they don't do any good.

00:52:04.520 this is a matter of divine revelation and this is a matter of um all persons in whatever station

00:52:11.120 they find themselves bowing to that god that creator and saying this is what you know this

00:52:17.900 is what we have to do yeah so i i agree john lock's idea of natural law and everything you're

00:52:23.180 talking about like human reason all that makes perfect sense if god didn't write a book but he

00:52:28.300 wrote a book and he gave us that book you know like we have we have divine revelation i have like

00:52:33.220 two minutes left. I can't run to it. Go ahead. You were going to say something. No, no, no,

00:52:38.780 I'm sorry. I just have two minutes left for the podcast. No, I hear, I hear, but it sounded like

00:52:42.280 you were going to, Oh, is that the thing you were going to say? I have to wrap it up. Yep. Let's

00:52:48.080 wrap it up. But so my point is just, I agree with you 100%. You know, it's, it's secular humanism

00:52:53.060 and that's some of the stuff that like, you know, Gary North and Rush Dooney and Bonson, that's

00:52:57.220 what they were talking about. You know, man is the measure of all things. That's what they saw

00:53:00.620 even in their day you know 30 years ago creeping up and they were sounding the alarm and um and

00:53:07.180 presbyterians not baptists but presbyterians uh silenced them the reconstruction i still feel

00:53:15.360 their oppression i was impressed by them my whole life very very recently yeah until very recently

00:53:24.080 but uh but you know but they got silenced and i mean still like you you talk to a lot of uh

00:53:28.820 Presbyterian groups. And it's like, if you even mention Christendom or theonomy or these kinds

00:53:33.980 of things, it's just, uh, yeah, it's, it's just like, like it's poison. And there's this powerful

00:53:38.960 clip I saw with Greg Bonson from back in the day where he's like, he's like, we we've got the LGBT

00:53:43.860 agenda and you're worried about theonomy. We've got, um, uh, this and that. And he just lists

00:53:50.500 all the, uh, you know, um, combating against inerrancy and he lists all these very serious

00:53:55.360 issues. And he said, but Presbyterians are, are worried about theonomy. And it's just this

00:53:59.900 profound, you know, clip to just say like, what, what is it in the heart of, and it's not just

00:54:05.420 Presbyterians, but in the heart of people and, and sadly, even Christians on both sides of the

00:54:10.560 aisle, Presbyterians and Baptists that like, that like you even mentioned that the possibility of,

00:54:16.600 of maybe God's law being the standard for the state. And it's just like, like you're going to

00:54:22.900 start rounding up muslims and putting them in jail and say but but we murder a million babies 0.97

00:54:27.060 each year right now that's already like i just feel like i'll land the plane with this i feel 0.99

00:54:32.520 like chrysidom on its worst day and it's had problems but on its worst day can't even get

00:54:39.360 close to putting up the numbers of casualties that uh secularism has put up all day and there's

00:54:45.100 and look it's not whether but which so secularism to the degree we talk about it and people think

00:54:51.480 of it as a neutral position. It's not. All those babies are blood sacraments. You're going to have

00:54:56.480 it. And so we're living in a time of paganism and pagan sacrifice and all of that informing 0.62

00:55:02.900 our public life. And you're dead right. It is time for a reformation. Amen. Thanks for coming

00:55:08.560 on the show, Jared. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me, Joe. Thanks so much for listening.

00:55:12.800 But real quick, before you go, do us a small favor, take a moment and leave us a five-star

00:55:18.300 review if you enjoyed the show. This is undoubtedly the best way that you can help us get this

00:55:24.120 biblically faithful content to as many people as possible. Thanks so much.

The NXR Podcast - September 27, 2022

THEOLOGY APPLIED - Figuring Out This Whole “Postmillennial-Theonomy-Covenant Thing”

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