The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - Honoring Fathers & Mothers, Even When They’re Boomers with Eric Conn

00:00:00.000 In less than a year, our podcast has gone from an average of 10,000 downloads a month to 50,000

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00:00:24.060 review on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks. Honor thy father and mother. The fifth

00:00:30.580 commandment. I believe one of the most difficult commandments for young people today to seek to

00:00:36.600 obey. Why? Well, because young people in every generation have struggled with some kind of

00:00:42.680 streak of rebellion, but also because our fathers and mothers in the immediate sense, namely the

00:00:49.140 boomer generation has failed immensely. They have, in many ways, sold Gen X and millennials 0.59

00:00:57.040 down the river. So, in today's episode of Theology Applied, I'll be joined with Eric Kahn,

00:01:03.700 the host of the Hard Man podcast, to discuss the Fifth Commandment, the particular ways that 0.87

00:01:08.660 boomers have failed, and the challenges that we face to change the fabric of our nation,

00:01:14.180 to get things on track, and to honor our father and mother as we seek to also recognize the 1.00

00:01:20.360 mistakes they've made along the way. I'm Pastor Joel Webin. This is Theology Applied with Right

00:01:26.080 Response Ministries. Tune in now. Applying God's Word to every aspect of life. This is Theology

00:01:33.240 Applied. Eric, thanks for coming on. Thanks for having me once again, Joel. It's a pleasure to be

00:01:41.940 here. Absolutely. Well, today you and I, we were talking offline, preparing a little bit. And what

00:01:46.880 we want to talk about is the fifth commandment, the biblical imperative that we should honor our

00:01:51.920 fathers and our mothers, which seems to be a bit difficult in our generation. I have no doubt that

00:01:57.880 it has always been difficult. There's always an inclination, a temptation because of sin to

00:02:03.420 dishonor those who come before us. But I've talked to a lot of young men and a lot of young men today

00:02:09.880 are angry. And you can make an argument that that's just the nature of young men. Young men

00:02:14.120 of every generation have been angry and frustrated and zealous about something, you know, zeal without

00:02:18.700 wisdom. But it seems as though the anger that a lot of young men have today is a justifiable anger.

00:02:25.180 It seems as though they're frustrated because in some ways they really have been ripped off.

00:02:31.180 They've been robbed by the prior generation. They've been robbed of opportunity. They've been,

00:02:36.740 there's some real difficulties. And so you and I were talking about this. I've got a lot of

00:02:41.240 thoughts, but before I go any further, what do you think about this idea of young people today,

00:02:46.940 especially young men being frustrated and struggling to honor their father?

00:02:51.660 Yeah. I mean, I completely agree with it. I think what's interesting, a lot of times it gets painted 1.00

00:02:56.080 as like these young men are like 15 or 18 year olds. But a lot of times it's guys like you and

00:03:01.880 me, close to 40, somewhere in that ballpark, even right below the boomers. So some of the guys who

00:03:08.080 will have the complaints are in their 50s. But I think generally what you're seeing is there's

00:03:12.880 been a whole century controlled by boomers. It was a huge segment of the population because of 1.00

00:03:18.840 being fruitful after World War II. But they held power for the longest amount of time.

00:03:24.460 Many of them are still in power. And so I think what's happened is a lot of people are starting

00:03:29.040 to recognize and say, okay, here's the world they built. It really sucks. And we're getting 0.98

00:03:35.560 the shaft on a number of things, including inflation, the economy's bad. A lot of the

00:03:41.580 decisions that were made in the 70s and 80s and 90s, it was functionally to pass the debt burden

00:03:48.320 on to us. And so we're getting to realize those things right now. 2008 was another example of

00:03:54.100 that, you know, these companies are too great to fail. And so we're going to, you know, we're going

00:03:58.500 to give the shaft again to future generations. And so in 2030 and afterwards is when people are 0.98

00:04:04.180 going to start really having to pay for those financial decisions. I also think a big part of

00:04:10.080 it is a book I read recently, but R.R. Reno's book, Return of the Strong Gods, really helping

00:04:16.800 people understand what is the post-World War II consensus? What's this world that we live in

00:04:21.860 after World War II.

00:04:24.720 We've been in countless wars.

00:04:27.000 We have been engaged in this race

00:04:29.880 to become a globalist type state.

00:04:33.920 And I think because of that,

00:04:35.660 so many people are feeling like, 0.98

00:04:38.320 and they're right,

00:04:39.820 that this is not the world that we signed up for

00:04:41.880 or want to live in. 0.95

00:04:43.180 And so that other generation is sunsetting.

00:04:46.400 And so now I think you're seeing a lot of the rift

00:04:49.300 in the power struggle between these groups

00:04:54.420 as that transition has failed to happen.

00:04:56.460 And the imperative for fathers

00:04:58.860 as it pertains to their posterity

00:05:01.720 is that they would leave to them

00:05:04.140 more than what they had,

00:05:05.900 that they would do everything they can

00:05:07.220 with what God's sovereignly chosen

00:05:08.600 to give to them and multiply it.

00:05:10.900 So they'd be fruitful,

00:05:11.740 multiply in terms of their offspring,

00:05:13.040 but also multiplying their influence,

00:05:16.020 their wealth, their resources,

00:05:17.220 their land, their business, their this, their that. I mean, that's my goal is to not just

00:05:24.460 multiply my name in terms of my offspring and having multiple children, but I want my children

00:05:30.840 to have multiple things. And not because I'm a materialist, not because the world is just stuff,

00:05:35.900 not because Darwin was right, not because of the prosperity gospel, but because I want to honor

00:05:41.420 God. I want to live a glorious life and I want my children to live a more glorious life than I did

00:05:47.240 And that includes in terms of what they have, their influence, their wealth, what they're

00:05:51.500 able to steward for the kingdom of God, not just their own personal comfort.

00:05:54.860 I want to leave lots of children, but I want to leave my lots of children with lots of

00:05:59.660 things.

00:06:00.140 I want to give them an inheritance.

00:06:02.120 Proverbs says explicitly that a good man leaves an inheritance not only for his children,

00:06:08.600 but his children's children.

00:06:09.720 So a wise and good man is thinking about the financial well-being of his grandchildren,

00:06:15.260 not just his children but his grandchildren and some people would you know be you know pietistic

00:06:20.760 and they would kind of try to to you know take that square peg and put it in the gospel-centered

00:06:25.820 circle hole you know and like well it's a spiritual inheritance and i would say it can

00:06:29.980 never be anything less a christian man a good man can leave nothing less than a spiritual inheritance

00:06:34.880 a gospel inheritance but i would eat my hat if god is speaking of of not something that that

00:06:41.560 doesn't include more. I think God is speaking of, yeah, give them the gospel, give them Jesus,

00:06:46.060 catechize them, raise them in the fear and nurture of the Lord and leave them stuff.

00:06:54.800 If a man who, I mean, the Bible talks about this. You're worse than an unbeliever. You've denied 1.00

00:07:00.540 the faith if you don't offer gospel-centered platitudes to your household. No, if you don't

00:07:06.880 clothe them and feed them and provide, physically provide. And I think this inheritance, sure,

00:07:12.140 it's a spiritual inheritance, but it's also a physical inheritance. It's monetary. And so you

00:07:17.780 look at generations and it's like, you want to be fruitful. The greatest generation was a fruitful

00:07:22.120 generation, but they didn't just create lots of boomers, lots of children, but they gave their

00:07:26.880 children the world on a silver platter. Boomers, it's not just that there were a lot of boomers.

00:07:31.460 If it was just a lot of boomers, but they came into a world that didn't have anything, 0.98

00:07:34.640 then you know that maybe i'd have some sympathy but it seems like and you correct me if i'm wrong

00:07:39.660 but it seems like the boomers is a large numerically large generation but also had

00:07:45.120 unparalleled resources and opportunity and instead of multiplying it even more um it seems like like

00:07:55.500 a like a swarm of locusts ate it up and and they just fit us the bill and we're all going to have

00:08:04.000 to pay for it is i i feel like some people are upset for some reasons i think in many ways you

00:08:09.840 could say it's something like the prodigal generation um you you took a lot of wealth

00:08:14.300 you took the inheritance you were given and you went and you squandered it um helen andrews in

00:08:19.260 her book on the boomers we were talking about this uh before but yeah one of the things that's

00:08:23.980 really interesting about that is she she does some biopics on on people uh like steve jobs

00:08:29.080 And they talk about, oh, the boomers were all about bringing work to America.

00:08:33.880 Steve Jobs pushed all the globalist work over to China for the iPhone.

00:08:39.400 It was about outsourcing and sort of like an old-style British colonialism where we're not impacted by tariffs.

00:08:46.800 Extremely bad for American workers, but great for the company.

00:08:51.380 I think somebody even said if the iPhone had been made in America, it would have cost Apple an extra $100.

00:08:56.620 dollars. Um, instead they chose to outsource it to China. And again, it was part of this

00:09:02.360 globalist push. You look at what they did to their employees. They were terrible to Apple

00:09:05.640 employees. You know, we need you to work 90 hours a week and not have a life. And Steve

00:09:09.660 jobs himself was a terrible father, a terrible husband, and, uh, kind of a terrible person

00:09:15.160 in many ways. And then, you know, Helen says that's kind of the quintessential, um, you

00:09:20.100 know, picture of what the boomers were. They got a lot. Um, sometimes they did a lot. Sometimes

00:09:24.880 it wasn't all that good uh back to your original kind of analogy though i think what's happening

00:09:30.360 for a lot of people this is kind of a parallel with the church we're looking at the church like

00:09:34.540 young restless and reformed is what you and i grew up with right and we're looking back and

00:09:39.120 we're saying wait a minute you know my dad taught me that this is metaphorical but my dad taught me

00:09:43.780 my dad's taught me uh you know acts 29 but then you it was a gateway drug into the confessional

00:09:49.680 historic faith and you go, wait a minute. Maybe grandpa was actually smarter. Maybe grandpa was

00:09:54.880 actually the one with a head on his shoulders. And I think that's what's happened with Stephen

00:09:58.380 Wolfe and Christian nationalism. Listen, I read that book too. And I said, well, this is kind of

00:10:02.320 some edgy stuff. And then you start reading it and you're like, well, that's what Aquinas said.

00:10:06.040 Yeah. That's what Augustine said. That's what Calvin said. Definitely what Calvin said. And

00:10:11.040 you go, okay, wait a minute. Maybe I'm wrong. But I think what's happened in our culture is

00:10:16.580 boomerism has infiltrated the church. It's infiltrated politics. We think that democratic

00:10:22.680 pluralism is the answer to everything. And when people are challenging that, which I think a lot

00:10:29.420 of people in the younger generation are starting to do, I think that's where you're seeing such

00:10:34.540 a rift and a split. Sort of like this idea of a Christian prince is one example. Well,

00:10:41.780 that is the most anti-boomer.

00:10:44.420 Reno talks about it in his book.

00:10:45.820 He's like, basically, you're bringing back

00:10:47.080 the strong gods of religion to culture and to society.

00:10:50.820 And we've learned all our lives that that's fascist.

00:10:53.960 Like, you want to be Hitler.

00:10:55.280 And that's why you see all these comparisons.

00:10:57.040 Anytime somebody says, we want to love our country. 0.87

00:10:59.600 Oh, blood and soil, Hitler, you're Hitler.

00:11:01.780 Like, that's the immediate response 0.94

00:11:03.580 because that's how the boomers grew up,

00:11:05.940 thinking of democratic pluralism as the answer.

00:11:08.640 And in fact, even in the Reno book,

00:11:10.160 uh he says democratic pluralism is going to be the savior of society one group doesn't have power

00:11:16.180 everybody it's distributed and uh we're not dominant christian we're not dominant anything

00:11:21.340 um and again so here along comes this generation saying christian nationalism and um of course

00:11:27.540 they're going to hate that that that is as antithetical to george w bush obama clintonism

00:11:33.560 as you could possibly get yep yeah you're absolutely right uh reno's book was helpful

00:11:38.620 you know my synopsis takeaway from his book was kind of like I think of you know Saul has killed

00:11:46.920 his thousands and David his tens of thousands so it's like the strong gods have killed their

00:11:51.300 thousands and the weak gods have killed their tens of thousands the weak gods in the final

00:11:57.820 analysis it seems as though they might actually bear the potential of killing more not less doing 0.63

00:12:04.240 more harm that's the crazy thing yeah right the whole fear was that fascists uh like mussolini

00:12:10.740 and hitler right um they were the real danger and so we we functionally exterminated these guys we

00:12:17.720 got rid of them from the world stage at least and then on the scene comes totalitarian bureaucratic

00:12:23.540 filth world statism and so you get you know the ussr killing hundreds of millions right how many

00:12:30.720 millions have been killed in america since you know 1970 because of abortion right um yeah the

00:12:36.580 this is the crazy thing right the the atrocities done under bureaucratic filth world are far greater

00:12:42.980 uh than what christendom did exactly what these supposed you know christian nations uh had had

00:12:49.180 had done on their right and and i think that you know what i'm getting at and i think what you know

00:12:53.660 what what reno's getting at is just that um well it's the old rush duty adage you know not whether

00:12:58.840 but witch. The strong gods are coming back. So I think that that's baked into the equation. I don't

00:13:04.040 think we have much to say about that because the weak gods have reigned. Their divine reign has

00:13:12.000 been long enough now to where the people are ready to throw them off. We've had it. We've

00:13:20.340 seen that, oh man, the weak gods are worse than the strong gods. So the strong gods are going to

00:13:24.680 return. Um, so then the question is which ones? Uh, so, so this idea, globalism, that's a weak

00:13:31.580 God. So the way that Reno, you know, he says, uh, you know, the weak gods are, it's like in

00:13:35.060 pluralism, inclusivism. Um, it's, you know, it's the, uh, it's anti-fascism, anti-racism and all

00:13:43.200 the phobias, right. Homophobia, transphobia, you know, uh, yeah. So all these kinds of things

00:13:48.140 that that's, that's the weak gods. The weak gods are don't you ever, ever, ever make a strong

00:13:53.380 dogmatic statement. There is no dogmatism, no transcendent truth, no real authority, right?

00:14:01.600 It's just, it's egalitarianism across the board. Everybody's an equal. But then, you know, that

00:14:06.240 sounds great in theory, but in practice, the way that plays out is, okay, well, Hitler's an 0.74

00:14:12.200 authoritarian, 6 million Jews, right? Okay, well, you got 60 million babies murdered under the weak 0.64

00:14:19.020 gods with abortion just in this nation. So my point is, it's just like, I think we've realized

00:14:26.020 the weak gods, that's unsustainable. We can't do that. The strong gods have problems. There are

00:14:30.660 problems with the strong gods if they're not Christian gods. So we're using lowercase g

00:14:34.700 gods. Just let the listener understand. What I'm trying to say is that I think the strong gods are

00:14:39.900 coming back. So instead of globalism, it's going to be nationalism. Instead of this egalitarianism,

00:14:46.580 it's going to be patriarchy, right? Instead of feminism, it's going to be patriarchy. Instead of 1.00

00:14:50.400 Darwinism, it's going to be religion and tradition and family. So then the question is,

00:14:56.420 which one? If nationalism is going to replace globalism, because we realize globalism kills

00:15:00.880 100 million and nationalism at its worst, on its worst day, only kills 10 million and 10 million

00:15:06.240 dead is better than 100 million. If there's going to be a return to the strong gods, then the

00:15:09.900 question is, is not whether, but which. So which nationalism do you want? Do you want Christian

00:15:13.940 nationalism or islamic nationalism because you're probably gonna get one of those two right do you

00:15:18.880 want uh christian patriarchy or do you want uh joe rogan and andrew tate patriarchy right do you want

00:15:24.320 see that's that's what i'm i think a lot of young guys are sensing right now and boomers don't get

00:15:28.840 it they don't um all of them except for doug wilson you know doug wilson gets it but pretty

00:15:33.640 much you know an entire generation and and so they think we're being contentious and overzealous and

00:15:39.020 that we're just being divisive and we're being argument argumentative for for no reason just

00:15:43.040 you know, or platform building or trying to, you know, just to take influence away from guys who

00:15:49.880 have just been so faithful for so many years. That's not it. What we're realizing is that

00:15:56.440 something is profoundly and deeply broken. And the solution cannot merely be to wind back the clock

00:16:04.420 to the 1990s, because the 1990s got us here. And so we're saying, well, wait a second,

00:16:11.540 Why can't the state be Christian?

00:16:14.660 A separation of church and state is not the same thing as a separation of Christ and state. 0.90

00:16:19.380 Why should the state be Christless?

00:16:22.420 And those kind of questions are starting to be raised.

00:16:25.040 Now, if the state does honor Christ, well, then what does that mean?

00:16:30.080 Is it just privately that Caesar privately worships Christ?

00:16:33.640 Or does Christ have something to say about our vocation?

00:16:36.900 Does he have something to say about all of our vocations?

00:16:39.100 Is it just the pulpit, the minister that Christ has orders for?

00:16:42.580 Does he have orders for the cobbler, the one who makes shoes?

00:16:45.460 And does he have orders for Caesar?

00:16:47.540 And not just how Caesar privately worships Christ, but how he lives Christianly in his

00:16:52.320 vocation, in his legislation.

00:16:54.220 These are the questions that we're starting to ask.

00:16:56.940 And these are all reasonable questions. 0.99

00:16:59.380 But right now we're seeing a massive amount in the Reformed world of division because 0.95

00:17:04.620 the moment that younger guys, and again, like you said, not 15 year olds, but 35 year olds 0.95

00:17:09.340 start asking very, very reasonable questions. We're being maligned. We're being slandered.

00:17:14.780 We're being misrepresented. Oh, you want a Protestant Pope? Oh, you want this? You want

00:17:18.140 that? And it's getting bad. It is getting bad. I think a big part of it, Joel, like why is that

00:17:24.380 happening? You know, it really comes down to really a Machiavellian power structure at the

00:17:30.040 base this is what's happening i think that people are cognizant that there is a transfer a

00:17:35.780 generational transfer underway and i think what you're seeing in in the boomer camp and in the

00:17:41.360 older guys this is very indicative of conservatism going back to like william f buckley as he as he

00:17:48.160 approaches his sunset he wants to guard and guarantee who gets his inheritance culturally

00:17:54.900 And so what he spent the end of his years doing was vilifying guys like Pat Buchanan. He did not want Pat to take his reins and then push it in that direction. So he essentially ousted him.

00:18:10.000 um and so this is this is what i think you're seeing a lot of the older generation doing right

00:18:14.260 now um you know they're they're trying to guard who the the future leadership will be i think

00:18:21.240 what's really interesting is if you you look at the younger leadership you'll see something else

00:18:27.080 in ministries and stuff like this different groups uh people are all jockeying to to win

00:18:32.560 that approval so the younger generation that is like yeah we're going to be boomers to democratic

00:18:37.540 pluralism right they think that they're going to get the inheritance from dad that's what it is

00:18:42.720 yeah they're the old they're the older brother they're not dad himself the boomers are that's

00:18:46.480 dad but then there's the older brother like i i've always worked for you i always you know like 0.77

00:18:50.680 you said um you said that um that you know we we shouldn't you know the politics is a separate

00:18:57.860 thing and blah blah you know and principled pluralism and so i said principled pluralism

00:19:02.160 and and then they're seeing other guys who's not saying what the boomer said we're disagreeing

00:19:06.880 with dad and rising to prominence. And so the older brother is like, wait a second,

00:19:13.840 I've been slaving away. And he's over here, you know, preaching a different message. And now

00:19:18.560 people are following him. They're listening to his podcast and not mine. And they're getting upset.

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00:20:43.120 The big part of this, right, is that because of the way the world and technology has changed,

00:20:48.880 it used to be that you had to have certain things to control institutional power.

00:20:52.660 So you got to have a TV station or a radio station and a lot of money to publish books and do stuff like that.

00:20:58.080 the name of the game has changed though because of things like twitter now x um so when you think

00:21:03.220 about it some of the even groups that we've kind of gone head to head with in the last year the

00:21:09.160 irony is that we're basically nobodies with no institutional power or little who are a threat

00:21:15.540 to people who've been doing this for a long time who have long-standing preaching and teaching in

00:21:20.460 conference ministries and whatever and i i think what they're recognizing both the older generation

00:21:26.380 And then that younger generation, as I described them, trying to grapple over who gets this inheritance, cultural, institutional, or otherwise.

00:21:34.740 What's really interesting about that is there is a group of guys who have basically come in, swooped in, and stolen the hearts of a lot of these young people without anybody's permission.

00:21:45.660 And I think that's why you're seeing so many people be so upset about it.

00:21:49.160 Because, you know, we just got on Twitter and we're like telling the truth.

00:21:52.460 And, you know, I don't know about you, but for me, I wasn't like trying to build an audience.

00:21:56.720 I was just like, these things are true.

00:21:58.480 And I'm going to point to them and say, that's true.

00:22:00.600 And I'm going to, you know, lean into the plow wherever I can.

00:22:05.020 Masculinity, King's Hall, this sort of thing.

00:22:07.320 And you look behind you and you have a whole following.

00:22:11.880 Right.

00:22:12.600 And then the older people are like, well, I didn't, I didn't assign that to you.

00:22:16.220 You're stealing my people.

00:22:18.340 So I think, and I can certainly understand that, you know, why these guys would be frustrated.

00:22:22.460 So I think the problem is, though, because the game changed institutionally.

00:22:27.340 Right.

00:22:28.180 Like, those older guys, I don't think that they realize,

00:22:31.520 and a lot of younger guys trying to get their favor,

00:22:34.100 I don't think they realize that the mass of people

00:22:36.620 don't respect a lot of them anymore.

00:22:39.240 And they don't trust them.

00:22:41.460 And so you do have a shift.

00:22:45.000 And, you know, as David and Saul, it's always going to create jealousy.

00:22:48.360 And Saul's probably going to try and kill David.

00:22:50.300 And, you know, if you're the David out there, then you just say, okay, well, him trying to kill me elevates me to his position and his level and keep fighting the good fight.

00:22:58.900 But I've been reliably informed.

00:23:01.120 I've been reliably informed that you're not David.

00:23:04.500 I am not David.

00:23:06.620 That's what Matt Chandler told me.

00:23:08.020 He said, you're not David.

00:23:10.640 He also said Jesus wants to use mattress.

00:23:13.560 Right.

00:23:13.840 So, you know, that's all sorts of things from Matt Chandler.

00:23:16.700 All sorts of things.

00:23:17.200 But yeah, and that's a good example, too, is like, you know, why was J.D. Greer preaching

00:23:22.420 on this, you know, lambasting his people for, you know, you've lost your soul because you

00:23:26.660 voted for Trump and people are leaving his church.

00:23:29.840 And, you know, look at what's happening in Acts 29.

00:23:32.460 You look at all these things, it's like the institutional power is changing because you

00:23:35.800 failed.

00:23:36.360 And when you fail as a leader, people don't trust you.

00:23:38.920 And so you're going to see a shift.

00:23:40.400 And I think, you know, tying it back to the generational divide, I think what's probably

00:23:46.340 going to happen is there

00:23:48.240 will still be, in

00:23:50.180 large part, the older

00:23:52.180 generation trying to work with younger guys

00:23:54.200 who are going to follow what they were doing.

00:23:56.600 Right. But I think

00:23:58.240 you're seeing all these fault lines forming

00:24:00.180 for a reason. I think the tension will

00:24:02.260 get worse.

00:24:04.120 And then, you know, you're going to see a real shift.

00:24:06.160 I mean, I don't mean to be crass, but it's like

00:24:08.500 R.C. Sproul died,

00:24:10.140 John Piper's, you know, nearing

00:24:12.240 eternity, John MacArthur.

00:24:14.980 These guys are

00:24:16.340 They're exiting stage right, and so that's going to cause change.

00:24:20.380 Stuff is going to happen, and we'll see kind of where the power shakes out at that point.

00:24:25.120 Yeah, I think there's frustration because you have company men.

00:24:28.700 It's like we did it the right way.

00:24:30.940 We took the right path.

00:24:31.840 We went through the right channels.

00:24:34.440 When Dad said jump, we said how high.

00:24:39.100 We went through the proper institutions.

00:24:42.200 We should get the inheritance.

00:24:43.440 We should get the inheritance.

00:24:44.260 dad is exiting you know uh he's exiting the stage and and you know we we were there we we were there

00:24:51.480 for dad and um and so right now as dad's now exiting the stage and about to hand over the

00:24:57.020 inheritance um they're discovering it's like you know like we're kind of you know we're using a lot

00:25:03.180 of analogies here david versus saul but another one would be like jacob versus esau you know that

00:25:07.380 jacob you know slips in there and it's actually a righteous thing to do jacob i don't believe that

00:25:12.340 he's actually being deceitful. In fact, he's honoring his mother. His mother is the one who

00:25:16.540 kind of puts him up to it. And she is obeying the word of the Lord, spoken in Malachi, a prophetic

00:25:23.520 word that the older should serve the younger. She knows that Isaiah is the center in the equation.

00:25:28.060 Esau certainly is fleshly and sold his birthright for a bowl of soup. He's immoral, as Hebrew says. 0.91

00:25:34.620 But Isaac is the one who, Isaac's physical blindness, James B. Jordan talks about this,

00:25:39.540 Like his physical blindness is indicative of, at this point of his life, his spiritual blindness.

00:25:44.260 Exactly.

00:25:44.600 Like he knows that Jacob's supposed to get the inheritance.

00:25:47.560 He knows that Jacob is the one that God has chosen.

00:25:51.180 That's a prophetic word that they've received.

00:25:52.800 And so Rebecca is being righteous and saying, okay, like my husband is about to terribly sin against the Lord by going directly in disobedience against what God has said.

00:26:04.260 Giving the blessing to Esau when he, God has told him to give it to Jacob.

00:26:09.200 It's Jacob's blessing.

00:26:11.860 But here's the deal.

00:26:12.800 God is sovereign.

00:26:14.240 And if God has determined that Jacob will get the blessing, guess who's going to get

00:26:16.960 the blessing?

00:26:18.420 He's going to work his way in there.

00:26:19.860 One way or another, his mom's going to slip him in. 0.94

00:26:22.160 He's going to put on goat skin, whatever he's got to do. 0.85

00:26:24.340 But if God has ordained that Jacob should get the blessing rather than Esau, even though 0.68

00:26:29.420 Esau was the favored son of his father, Isaac, then it doesn't matter.

00:26:35.220 If God has spoken it, then that's what's going to happen.

00:26:37.640 And right now, I think that's what's going on, is that what we're realizing is that,

00:26:41.900 okay, the last 80 years haven't been so hot.

00:26:44.480 This is not a winning strategy.

00:26:46.300 And a lot of these things, they're novel.

00:26:49.000 They're novel.

00:26:49.920 People say, well, we're not, you know, you lose down here, whatever.

00:26:53.420 And like, we're not supposed to win.

00:26:54.600 What do you mean winning strategy?

00:26:55.840 Okay, take all that language out of it.

00:26:57.500 Take the optimism, pessimism with eschatology.

00:27:00.220 Put all that on the side for a moment.

00:27:02.020 The bottom line is, what does the Bible say and what has the witness of church history held to for 19 and a half centuries?

00:27:12.020 I mean, dispensationalism is novel.

00:27:15.780 It's novel.

00:27:16.820 That is not the longstanding position.

00:27:19.040 That is novel.

00:27:20.520 Complementarianism is novel.

00:27:22.400 It is not historical.

00:27:23.700 It's novel.

00:27:24.760 The idea of secularism.

00:27:27.300 Secularism is novel.

00:27:28.820 Globalism is novel.

00:27:30.180 All these things, these are the inventions of men.

00:27:33.760 This is not the witness of history.

00:27:35.500 This is not the biblical pattern.

00:27:37.680 And so now you have a generation saying, okay, well, we want to go back to the Bible in part

00:27:41.920 because of God's mercy and electing people and regenerating hearts and opening our eyes,

00:27:46.620 but also in part because we are the prime object of the harm of trash world,

00:27:54.320 the harm of all these novel positions.

00:27:56.580 We're the ones who are inheriting the bill, us and our children.

00:27:59.680 And so we're, you know, like people complain, well, in the seventies, you know, there were 18% interest rates. Yeah. On a $50,000 house. Like I understand. It's not like, it's not like this is the first time that things have ever been economically bad. I understand. All right. I've read a little bit of history. I understand that the economy, there's been some, some bleak moments. I understand the great depression and I understand the seventies, you know, we're bad.

00:28:21.520 But it is an objective fact that our parents' generations, the boomers, in terms of income, wages, to housing costs, even regardless of what the interest rate might have been, it was way easier for them to own a home than it is for somebody trying to buy a home who's a millennial.

00:28:44.420 Way easier.

00:28:45.460 Not even a comparison.

00:28:47.120 And so this idea of like, okay, well, I'm trying to obey God's word.

00:28:49.800 I want to be a breadwinner.

00:28:51.340 I want to be a protector and provider.

00:28:52.900 I want to have multiple children.

00:28:54.420 And I don't want to put them in public schools.

00:28:56.360 And I want my wife to be able to stay home and not rely on her for a second income.

00:28:59.840 And I want to own a home so I don't just build somebody else's wealth, but so that I actually

00:29:04.240 have an investment that I can give as an inheritance to my children's children.

00:29:08.080 In other words, I want to obey the scripture in tangible, practical ways.

00:29:11.640 And then you get out your calculator and you do the math and you realize that your parents

00:29:17.760 have made it all near impossible to practically obey scripture in any of those regards. And so,

00:29:25.480 yeah, you're like, yeah, we want to change things. We're not trying to be disrespectful.

00:29:29.920 We're not trying to be ornery just for the point of being ornery. We're not trying to just be

00:29:34.680 this rebellious teenage kid. Again, we're not teenagers. We're in our 30s and we're looking

00:29:42.480 at mom and dad and saying, I love you. And you're going to live with me when you're old and I'm

00:29:46.900 going to take care of you and we're going to sing hymns over your bed as you're dying. You're going

00:29:52.040 to die with dignity, but also you don't get to drive anymore. I love you, mom and dad, but you 0.97

00:29:57.120 don't get to, right? There's a certain point where you can honor your father and mother, but also you

00:30:01.380 don't let them behind the wheel of a car. You take away their keys. And that doesn't mean you're

00:30:05.160 dishonoring them. That's just, you're saying, I'm sorry, mom. I'm sorry, dad. I'm sorry, father,

00:30:11.520 but but uh you you're you're degrading and you're just you're not able to do that and and you have 0.68

00:30:17.160 a proven track record of getting behind the wheel of a car and running running people over like you

00:30:21.780 can't you can't do that anymore i love you i will always love you and i'll provide for you and i

00:30:26.560 care for you uh and i honor you i do honor you but um but no your your generation can't drive

00:30:32.980 anymore and that's that's what we have we have biden is in his 80s driving nancy pelosi driving

00:30:38.960 like we can go on and on mitch mcconnell like like literally having brain aneurysms behind the

00:30:44.040 pulpit can't can't even talk and just like going going off into nowhere like diane feinstein dude

00:30:49.160 it's a it's an indictment on our it's our country is is mockable it's it's people the world is

00:30:55.240 laughing at us it's embarrassing years ago uh i think would sometime when it first came out but

00:31:01.360 bronze age mindset you know when that when that would i was reading that it was really interesting

00:31:06.300 Cause he said, you know, the, the kind of pinnacle of the downfall of our culture will

00:31:11.960 be where we're headed, which is when sclerotic old men and the ginocracy rule. 1.00

00:31:17.900 And I was kind of like, Hmm, that's weird. 0.99

00:31:20.000 And then you look around and that's exactly what it is.

00:31:22.360 Meanwhile, who gets, um, really oppressed in that situation as young men.

00:31:27.260 I also think too, like they're going back to what you were just saying that there has

00:31:31.720 to be a category where we can say, we want to be faithful men like Josiah.

00:31:36.300 who becomes king and begins with national repentance

00:31:39.820 and says, both we and our fathers have sinned.

00:31:43.120 And no one said to Josiah, you're dishonoring your father.

00:31:47.020 You're not dishonoring your father when you repent of sin,

00:31:49.980 his or yours or whatever.

00:31:51.820 Like that, he did the righteous thing.

00:31:54.140 And so I think we have to have that category.

00:31:55.880 And I think we can too also have a category where we say like,

00:31:59.740 I'm not going to like belittle my parents. 0.67

00:32:01.660 I'm not going to say nasty things to the boomers all the time. 0.99

00:32:05.380 But I am going to be cognizant of what the problems were. 0.56

00:32:09.600 This is one of the things Helen Andrews says in her book that I find so interesting. 0.98

00:32:13.980 She says, no culture lost more in terms of Western civilization than the boomers.

00:32:19.220 And she said, consider all the things that happened under the boomers watch.

00:32:23.200 They brought women into the workforce.

00:32:25.040 The civil rights movement passed, which was the end of the first constitutional era. 0.90

00:32:31.840 Hyperinflation.

00:32:33.040 You have the 70s with banking changes and deregulation and all these things.

00:32:37.860 Student loan debt begins to triple. 0.69

00:32:40.360 Sexual anarchy in the 60s and 70s, all under the boomer watch. 0.62

00:32:45.060 So, yeah, I mean, I think when you start adding it up,

00:32:48.020 and it is really hard because there's a lot of shame associated with this. 0.83

00:32:52.620 As a boomer, you have to say, like, on our watch, like, that sucked. 0.69

00:32:56.300 That was not good.

00:32:58.220 We have a lot to own up to.

00:33:00.300 Now, the one thing I will say, which I found an encouragement.

00:33:04.460 So if there's older guys who listen to this and are like, yeah, but they're rubbing it in our face, whatever, you know, people who handle this really well.

00:33:11.060 I think one is like Chris Wiley.

00:33:13.100 I have another friend who's very similar to Chris. 0.99

00:33:15.700 They are boomers. 1.00

00:33:17.000 But they will say, you know what?

00:33:18.820 Our generation did a terrible job.

00:33:21.100 Not proud of it.

00:33:22.840 But here's what we can do to fix it.

00:33:24.620 and be an encouragement to the young people and pass off whatever inheritance you possibly can

00:33:30.560 to your children. But I think, you know, fundamentally, we all have to kind of own

00:33:36.980 the problem for what it is. We're not going to repent as a nation until we recognize all the

00:33:43.020 things that are wrong. And I think that is... Yeah, we're not going to repent until we realize

00:33:47.120 we messed this up. But I think that's the problem right now, Joel, is that you have boomers still 1.00

00:33:53.800 holding onto power. And they're like, no, we made the right decisions. Like the George W. Bushes of 0.99

00:33:59.060 the world are still defending Iraq and Afghanistan. Like, are you kidding me? Pretty much everybody on 0.61

00:34:04.840 both sides is like, that was a terrible decision. Financially for our country wasn't good. Shouldn't

00:34:09.460 have done it. But they still won't own those mistakes. And I think that that causes ongoing

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00:36:03.640 I want to read a couple of quotes from Thomas Watson, his book, The Ten Commandments.

00:36:08.640 it's really helpful um but he he says this uh you know in commentating on a ton of common

00:36:15.360 commentating on exodus 2012 so exodus 2012 honor your father and mother that your days may be long

00:36:20.340 upon the land which the lord your god gives you um having done with the first table of the law i am

00:36:26.500 next to speak of the duties of the second table the ten commandments may be likened to jacob's

00:36:30.940 ladder the first table respects god and is the top of the ladder which reaches to heaven the

00:36:37.300 second respects man. It is the foot of the ladder that rests on the earth. By the first table, we

00:36:41.880 walk piously towards God. By the second, we walk religiously towards man. He cannot be good in the

00:36:48.820 first table who is bad in the second. All right. So then honor your father and mother. In this,

00:36:54.700 we have a command, honor your father and your mother. And second, a reason for it, that your

00:36:59.500 days may be long in the land. The first commandment with the promise. This is all I'm quoting Matthew

00:37:04.120 henry here um but then he gets into this he says father is of different kinds as the political the

00:37:10.680 ancient the spiritual the domestic and the natural or familial so he's saying there are different

00:37:16.520 kinds of fathers and exodus 2012 uh it addresses all of them that's it's including all of them so

00:37:22.700 a lot of again you know to go back to the boomers when they say well you need to honor your father

00:37:27.700 um well right there which one there you know exactly which one that's the question which one

00:37:33.180 It's not whether, of course, it's God's word.

00:37:35.160 We need to honor our father.

00:37:36.200 But the question is, is which father?

00:37:37.760 So there's an obligation for me to honor my familial father,

00:37:41.820 my actual father who brought me into the world.

00:37:44.100 In my case, I was adopted, but the one who named me,

00:37:47.020 gave me his name, protected me, provided for me,

00:37:50.060 who raised me, he fathered me.

00:37:52.480 But beyond that, there are other fathers.

00:37:54.380 So fathers of different kinds as the political,

00:37:57.620 the ancient, the spiritual, the domestic,

00:37:59.740 and the natural, all right?

00:38:01.620 So then he talks about the political father.

00:38:03.920 You want to read some of that, Eric?

00:38:05.340 I think you've got it pulled up too.

00:38:06.680 Yeah, absolutely.

00:38:07.360 He says the political father or the magistrate.

00:38:09.760 He is the father of his country.

00:38:12.300 He is to be an encourager of virtue, a punisher of vice, and a father to the widow and the

00:38:17.720 orphan.

00:38:18.240 Such a father was Job.

00:38:20.180 I was a father to the poor and the cause which I knew not I searched out, Job 29, 16.

00:38:26.500 As the magistrates are fathers, so especially the king, who is the head of magistrates,

00:38:30.320 is a political father.

00:38:31.620 He is placed as a son among the lesser stars.

00:38:34.300 And the scripture calls kings fathers. 0.58

00:38:37.140 Kings shall be your nursing fathers, Isaiah 49, 23.

00:38:40.680 They are to train up their subjects in piety by good edicts and examples. 0.88

00:38:44.420 I don't know, Joel, this sounds like Christian nationalism again.

00:38:47.240 They are to train up their subjects in piety by good edicts.

00:38:50.720 So creating laws that support biblical piety and examples and nurse them up in peace and piety.

00:38:59.200 Such nursing fathers were David, Hezekiah,

00:39:01.380 Josiah, Constantine.

00:39:03.140 He lists Constantine.

00:39:04.240 I just got really uncomfortable.

00:39:06.720 And Theodosius.

00:39:07.980 It is well for people to have such nursing fathers

00:39:10.560 whose breast milk comfort their children.

00:39:13.160 And these fathers are to be honored.

00:39:17.380 Beautiful.

00:39:18.180 So yes, fathers.

00:39:19.220 Fathers as magistrates, Joel.

00:39:21.180 Yeah, so let's stop there for a second.

00:39:23.140 So this is Matthew Henry, right?

00:39:24.920 This is the late, great Puritan.

00:39:26.960 That is Thomas Watson.

00:39:27.820 or i'm sorry thomas uh watson another late great puritan and he's saying he lists constantine as

00:39:33.540 a positive example of a nursing father yeah okay like and this is why i wanted to read this okay

00:39:39.140 because all right i'm just going to be frank i'm i'm tired of of seeing guys uh building tombs

00:39:47.880 to the prophets um but but they don't actually honor them they're not actually honoring their

00:39:56.200 father. They say, oh man, we would have been on Jeremiah's side, you know, had we lived in his

00:40:00.820 day. You would have killed him. No, you would have killed him. How do you know? Because Jesus 0.86

00:40:05.660 is straight in the line of Jeremiah and Isaiah, Ezekiel. Here's the prophet of your day and 0.82

00:40:11.480 you're trying to murder him. That's how we know. Yeah, you're absolutely right. And so much of 0.83

00:40:15.540 this, it was actually Mark Driscoll years ago who said a lot of reformed guys today are like

00:40:20.880 ancient gun collectors they collect old guns and you're like oh do you use that no i've never even

00:40:26.980 shot that gun in my life that's what we do with our theology books we don't put them into practice

00:40:32.080 and then we criticize guys who do right so this is the crazy thing uh you know say about the

00:40:37.420 christian nationalism debate again is like you can read thomas watson and there's all these

00:40:43.420 reform publishing houses that love to publish this stuff and they will do nothing on the

00:40:48.460 cultural engagement front nothing in fact a lot of the books will actually cut out parts of you

00:40:54.420 know uh that we don't like anymore you know William Gouge addresses slavery and slaves and

00:40:59.940 masters that's not in the book anymore it was cut out um because you know it was in scripture but

00:41:05.700 it's not good enough for us today to to read those portions right so you look at these guys and we

00:41:11.180 say oh man we're so proud to be Westminsterian or 1689 you know like you don't even know what 0.99

00:41:17.640 these guys wrote you it's clear that you're either willfully blind to it or you're ignorant 0.74

00:41:24.560 it's like one of the two things you don't know what they wrote and i know you don't know what 0.95

00:41:27.840 they wrote because um what they wrote is almost been plagiarized by steven wolf oh yeah you hate

00:41:35.280 it well and i mean steven that's a joke i'm being facetious but what i'm he's not a plagiarizer but

00:41:39.920 what i'm saying is i mean steven wolf has has like all but copying what they did all but copy

00:41:46.180 pasted the reformers yeah and so that's fine if you don't like because i actually would would i

00:41:51.700 would detour from the reformers on a few things i would be more in in the vein of cornelius van

00:41:57.020 till and a presuppositional idea so i would you know i'm more of in the post-millennial theonomic

00:42:02.300 camp right whereas stephen wolf is more very much in the aquinas you know till mystic and he's all

00:42:08.240 millennial and but but i'm even willing to i've read stephen wolf's book it wasn't easy it's 400

00:42:13.040 pages long, but I read it and I've read Calvin's Institutes, right? Because we all talked about how

00:42:17.560 we love Calvin. So I thought we actually meant that. I thought we loved Calvin. So I read the

00:42:21.380 Institutes and then I read Stephen and I'm able to recognize, all right, here's Calvin, here's

00:42:25.600 Stephen, and I will concede and say, I'm going to be on a platform with Stephen and Doug Wilson at

00:42:30.520 Fight, Laugh, Feast talking about Christian nationalism. And I plan to concede even there

00:42:33.540 and say, listen, guys, whatever we say about Stephen's view of Christian nationalism, we all

00:42:37.200 have to admit that he has claim on the reformers. He is more in line with their tradition than we

00:42:42.860 are as post-millennial theonomist presuppositional you know Vantillian uh general equity theonomic

00:42:49.680 guys Bonson that the reconstructionist I love him I love Rush Duny I love Bonson and I'm more

00:42:54.160 in line with them but I recognize that um that Stephen has more in common with Calvin than um

00:42:59.720 than Rush Duny does so yeah all I'm saying is if you're in the crew that loves Calvin

00:43:07.060 and claims to love the reformers, but hates Stephen.

00:43:10.820 That seems kind of similar.

00:43:13.320 I'm not saying it's a one-to-one ratio,

00:43:14.880 but it seems kind of similar to loving Jeremiah

00:43:18.200 and building his tomb, but hating Jesus.

00:43:20.740 Well, it's the same thing.

00:43:22.080 I mean, it's the same principle.

00:43:23.980 Stephen's no Jesus, but it's the same principle.

00:43:26.540 I love the guys who sound just like this guy,

00:43:28.860 but conveniently they're dead.

00:43:30.620 But then the guy who's living,

00:43:32.060 who's just repeating their words, 0.86

00:43:34.620 that guy we're going to say is a heretic.

00:43:37.060 yeah i mean it's the exact same thing we do with the prophets with the puritans what i mean read

00:43:42.940 the puritans on modesty you know the the whole modesty blow up on you know twitter x is not

00:43:49.200 surprising uh what is surprising is how many like reformed christians are joining in the mob and

00:43:56.280 then you start reading like i don't know somebody who's just real warm and devotional like uh john

00:44:02.020 Bunyan. And man, did he have some sharp things to say to women who dress like whores. And we say 0.99

00:44:09.800 John Bunyan's so great. Not that John Bunyan. And it really does. I think it makes you realize

00:44:17.060 that what does this come down to? Like with the Pharisees, it's easy to celebrate things in the

00:44:23.980 past that you're not willing to fight for today. That's the coward's position. The Pharisees 0.87

00:44:30.160 didn't want their position and their power to be threatened by the roman government now actually i

00:44:35.000 think you have a very similar thing that a lot of these leaders of ministries and churches and blah

00:44:40.900 blah blah who are so opposed to this everybody realizes what a threat christian nationalism is

00:44:46.000 everybody it is a real threat right and the reason why they part of the reason you're making a really 0.55

00:44:51.040 good point that they're tamping down on christian nationalism speaking of now evangelical leaders

00:44:55.360 not political regime but evangelical leaders tamping down on christian nationalism because

00:44:59.440 they know that's a threat to the regime and it'll get us all in trouble.

00:45:02.640 In the same way that the Pharisees were trying to suppress the Jewish zealots of their day 0.57

00:45:06.940 because they're like, hey, dude, we've got a good thing going.

00:45:08.940 Like, yeah, yeah, it's not ideal.

00:45:10.420 We see it too. 0.91

00:45:11.360 Yeah, Rome, Rome kind of sucks and blah, blah, blah, you know, but this is as good as it's 0.99

00:45:15.580 going to get, you know, pipe down there, young man, because if you speak too loudly, Caesar 1.00

00:45:20.540 will crush us.

00:45:21.880 And that's, you know, that was the Pharisees position, you know, and it seems like that's

00:45:26.620 kind of some of our evangelical leaders position right now is look look they'll let us have our

00:45:32.700 puritan conferences they'll let us go and do our tours and visit calvin's grave you know like as

00:45:38.020 long as we don't try to implement it as long as it's not theology applied yeah so can we just

00:45:44.120 have an agreement where we just don't apply theology privately you can that's sure that's

00:45:49.360 fine. Privately, you can. But in the public square, we need you to, you know, simmer down.

00:45:59.860 And it's the same, dude, the parallel is, when you see it, it's inescapable. Building the tombs

00:46:06.640 to the prophets before you, you know, the Pharisees saying, hush, hush, because Rome,

00:46:11.920 the regime, you know, there's so many parallels, it's incredible. Let's read a little bit more

00:46:16.780 and then we can land the plane.

00:46:18.100 But I want to just read a little bit.

00:46:19.660 So that's the civil fathers, the political fathers.

00:46:22.980 Go on.

00:46:23.660 Let's scroll down a little bit here.

00:46:25.500 Scroll down, scroll down, scroll down.

00:46:27.300 Okay, the ancient father.

00:46:29.960 Eric, you want to read about the ancient father real quick?

00:46:32.780 Yeah, absolutely.

00:46:33.480 So there is the grave ancient father

00:46:35.460 who is venerable for old age, 0.69

00:46:37.480 whose gray hairs are resembled

00:46:38.960 to the white flowers of the almond tree,

00:46:41.420 Ecclesiastes 12.5.

00:46:43.400 There are fathers for seniority

00:46:44.900 on whose wrinkled brows

00:46:46.180 and in the furrows of whose cheeks is pictured the map of old age.

00:46:50.100 These fathers are to be honored.

00:46:52.260 You shall rise up before the hoary head and honor the face of the old man.

00:46:55.420 Leviticus 19, 32.

00:46:57.720 Especially those are to be honored who are fathers not only for their seniority,

00:47:01.400 but for their piety, whose souls are flourishing when their bodies are decaying.

00:47:06.280 It is a blessed sight to see springs of grace in the winter of old age,

00:47:09.640 to see men stooping towards the grave yet going up the hill of God,

00:47:13.300 to see them lose their color yet keep their savor.

00:47:16.180 Those whose silver hairs are crowned with righteousness are worthy of double honor.

00:47:20.420 They are to be honored not only as pieces of antiquity, but as patterns of virtue.

00:47:25.660 If you see an old man fearing God whose grace shines brightest when the sun of his life is setting,

00:47:30.340 oh, honor him as a father by reverencing and imitating him.

00:47:35.160 Beautiful.

00:47:35.660 So this is actually helpful too, Joel, because a lot of people were like, I'm old, you have to respect me.

00:47:40.280 Right. 0.98

00:47:40.500 And notice the connection with, well, you might be a vintage fool. 0.99

00:47:44.120 I don't actually have to honor you in the same way 0.99

00:47:46.700 that I would a man who is actually wise and godly and virtuous.

00:47:50.400 Right, a man stooping toward the grave,

00:47:53.120 yet going up the hill of God. 0.95

00:47:56.960 Or a man, if you see an old man fearing God,

00:48:02.580 whose grace shines brightest when the sun of his life is setting,

00:48:06.000 oh, honor him as father.

00:48:07.120 So here, we've got Watson making the argument,

00:48:10.560 not just for your father, who if you're a grown man, if you're an adult child now, then your

00:48:15.780 father is going to be old, but not just your old personal father, familial father, but all older

00:48:22.920 men, that we honor your elders, plural, so those who are older. So here Watson is making, so we've

00:48:29.040 had the civil fathers, but if they're righteous, if they're godly, and Thomas Watson gives some

00:48:33.680 of the imperatives for civil fathers, and now just fathers in general, the ancient fathers,

00:48:39.560 those who are older, the generation older than you. But again, there's a condition, the caveat,

00:48:44.480 if they honor God. Let's look at spiritual fathers now. I'll read that one real quick.

00:48:50.160 There are spiritual fathers. As pastors and ministers, these are instruments of the new

00:48:54.960 birth. Though you have 10,000 instructors, yet you have not many fathers. For in Christ Jesus,

00:49:00.860 I have begotten you through the gospel, 1 Corinthians 4.15. The spiritual fathers are

00:49:05.620 to be honored in respect of their office. Whatever their persons are, their office is honorable.

00:49:11.340 They are messengers of the Lord Almighty, Malachi 2.7. They represent no less than God himself.

00:49:17.020 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, 2 Corinthians 5.20. Jesus Christ was of this

00:49:22.920 calling. He had his mission and sanction from heaven, and this crowns the ministerial vocation

00:49:30.900 with honor. John 8, 18. These spiritual fathers are to be honored for their work's sake. They come

00:49:37.820 like the dove with an olive branch of peace in the mouth. They preach glad tidings of peace.

00:49:44.100 Their work is to save souls. Other vocations have only to do with men's bodies or estates,

00:49:49.620 but the minister's vocation is employed about the souls of men. Their work is to redeem spiritual

00:49:55.160 captives and turn men from the power of satan unto god acts 26 18 their work is to enlighten

00:50:01.880 those who sit in the region of darkness and to make them shine as stars in the kingdom of heaven

00:50:07.960 these spiritual fathers are to be honored for their work's sake and this honor is to be shown

00:50:13.460 three ways do you want to continue eric yeah definitely number one by giving them respect

00:50:19.520 know those who labor among you and are over you in the lord and esteem them very highly in love

00:50:24.320 for their work's sake.

00:50:27.500 1 Thessalonians 5, 12, and 13.

00:50:30.160 I confess the scandalous lives of some ministers

00:50:32.540 have been a great reproach

00:50:34.060 and have made the offering of the Lord

00:50:37.260 to be abhorred in some places of the land.

00:50:39.860 The leper in the law was to have his lip covered,

00:50:42.700 so such as are angels by office.

00:50:46.700 But lepers in their lives 0.80

00:50:48.300 ought to have their lips covered and to be silenced. 1.00

00:50:51.060 But though some deserve no honor,

00:50:52.600 yet such as are faithful

00:50:53.840 and make it their work to bring souls to Christ

00:50:55.760 are to be reverenced as spiritual fathers.

00:50:59.160 Obadiah honored the prophet Elijah, 1 Kings 18, 7.

00:51:02.480 Why did God appoint that the prince

00:51:04.100 should ask counsel of God by the priests?

00:51:06.280 Numbers 27, 21.

00:51:08.320 Why did the Lord show by that miracle

00:51:10.580 of Aaron's rod flourishing 0.98

00:51:11.800 that he had chosen the tribe of Levi

00:51:13.460 to minister before him?

00:51:15.560 Numbers 17.

00:51:17.440 Why does Christ call his apostles

00:51:19.000 the lights of the world?

00:51:20.600 Why does he say to all his ministers,

00:51:22.280 Lo, I am with you to the end of the world.

00:51:24.720 But because he would have these spiritual fathers reverenced.

00:51:28.240 He says, honor these spiritual fathers by becoming advocates for them and wiping off

00:51:32.680 those slanders which are unjustly cast upon them.

00:51:36.380 1 Timothy 5.19, Constantine was a great honor.

00:51:39.920 I love that he's just using Constantine.

00:51:42.560 Constantine was a great honor of the ministry.

00:51:45.100 He vindicated them, ministers.

00:51:47.700 he would not read the envious accusations brought against them, but burnt them. Do the ministers

00:51:53.900 open their mouths to God for you in prayer? And will you not open your mouths in their behalf?

00:52:00.000 Surely if they labor to preserve you from hell, you should preserve them from slander. If they

00:52:05.880 labor to save your souls, you ought to save their credit. Good night. That would preach.

00:52:12.240 you want to say anything about that eric yeah no i mean i i think overall you know like thomas

00:52:18.800 watson going through this talking about authority um so what is interesting here is the overall

00:52:24.660 respect for authority we have people telling us you have to obey authority no matter what this

00:52:29.620 was the whole romans 13 thing but what's interesting i find is you know like how many pastors were

00:52:36.260 honored pastors who were doing the right thing particularly right how many pastors were honored

00:52:40.460 by anyone uh during covet not very many uh right like we honored james codes but like did did the

00:52:47.060 authorities did the canadian people right now and did the canadian christians though see that's that's

00:52:52.560 a sad thing i i there were so many canadian christians i remember getting tons of bashing

00:52:57.600 him they yeah they were like his church they're they're zealots and they're gonna they're getting

00:53:02.300 us all in trouble and they're making this more difficult than it has to be and you know a lot

00:53:07.060 of times i've heard older people you know browbeat their children you need to honor your father

00:53:11.200 you're like well yeah but i mean like we have to have a thomas watson's great here because we have

00:53:17.200 to have a full understanding of the whole range of what honoring authority means and this would

00:53:22.720 include right honest honoring your ministers uh he'll say for conforming to their doctrine this

00:53:28.660 is the way that you honor them so he's actually showing you how um and then i think also like

00:53:33.440 then we'll get into number four.

00:53:34.800 Like there's the domestic father who Thomas Watson very unpolitically

00:53:39.740 correctly calls the master.

00:53:42.860 He's the father of the family.

00:53:44.660 Right.

00:53:44.960 Therefore,

00:53:45.360 Naaman's servants called their master father.

00:53:47.360 Second Kings five 13. 0.73

00:53:49.740 You have the centurion who calls a servant son,

00:53:53.740 Matthew eight six.

00:53:54.860 The servant is to honor his master as the father of the family.

00:53:57.760 The master is not so qualified as he should be yet.

00:54:00.700 the servant must not neglect his duty but show some kind of honor to him so you have honor and

00:54:05.120 obedience um you know again the only authority we were told to obey is you know lord fauci

00:54:11.760 but outside of that like no other authority matters so you can kind of see where all the 0.91

00:54:17.920 distortions happen in our society where you have boomers who are like you have to do what i say 0.69

00:54:21.880 the government says you have to do what i say but you know you read this and you're like well wait 1.00

00:54:25.760 a minute there's a whole range of ways in which you have to obey authority like let's do them all

00:54:30.660 And then they're like, nah, we're actually not in favor of that.

00:54:33.880 Exactly.

00:54:34.600 And that's the big point.

00:54:35.960 There are a lot of fathers.

00:54:38.040 There are a lot of fathers.

00:54:39.200 And if we're going to be faithful in the Decalogue and obeying the fifth commandment, it's not just your familial father.

00:54:46.500 It is fathers.

00:54:48.420 There are civil fathers.

00:54:50.340 There are familial fathers.

00:54:52.360 There are ancient fathers, spiritual fathers, natural fathers.

00:54:56.160 and there are fathers spanning back all the way until Adam, all the way until the beginning of

00:55:04.360 the world. So it's not just the immediate fathers right before our generation, but there is a sense

00:55:11.880 in which the apostle Paul is our father. There is a sense in which Calvin is our father. Augustine

00:55:19.640 is our father. Athanasius is one of our fathers. Constantine is one of our fathers. And so there

00:55:28.500 is something, remember, and this is the rhetoric that I thought we all, I thought we already

00:55:32.560 figured this out. That's why it's so frustrating for me. I thought we figured it out when people

00:55:36.580 were tearing down statues of fathers. And then we did this whole woke thing back in 2020. Right now,

00:55:44.000 it's like right now we did a woke war one now we're doing woke war two right so this is this

00:55:50.240 is ww2 that we're in you know just three years later right but people change sides exactly so

00:55:55.700 um but but in woke war one um i remember that there was a consensus from those who you know

00:56:01.980 were on the conservative side uh that we wanted to honor our fathers and that yeah sure our fathers

00:56:07.580 had some faults. But we wanted to recognize that Stonewall Jackson, we're going to be worshiping

00:56:14.920 with him in eternity in heaven. So if we don't want to make that awkward, we probably should

00:56:20.460 just come to terms with that right now. I mean, there's going to be a lot of people shocked

00:56:24.900 by the very... Now, I won't say this dogmatically, only the Lord knows. But I will say in terms of

00:56:30.720 likelihoods, statistical likelihoods, there's a good chance that Martin Luther King Jr. is in hell

00:56:36.260 and stonewall jackson is in heaven and there's a lot of christians who i believe really are

00:56:42.280 regenerate who are going to be shocked when they die and go to heaven and find that mlk jr

00:56:47.580 very likely is in hell and stonewall jackson along with a lot of other slave owners are in

00:56:53.740 heaven around the throne of god yeah you know and so i thought we were having that conversation

00:56:58.140 three years ago and i thought that we kind of settled it right that we lost about half of

00:57:02.120 evangelicalism, Russell Moore and David Fringe. And, you know, everybody, I thought, I thought

00:57:06.120 we already, it's like Gideon with his army. That's what it feels like right now. It's like, all right,

00:57:09.960 we already got already trimmed off half of our army. Surely that's enough. And now God's like,

00:57:14.900 nah, let's whittle it down to 300. You know, let's see who laps like a dog, you know, versus those

00:57:19.800 who, you know, and so like, and, and so here we are, you know, WW2 now woke war two in 2023. 0.62

00:57:26.460 And we haven't learned the lessons, right? Cause we were saying, this was the rhetoric that you're

00:57:30.680 pulling down statues and we're saying, wait a second, a generation that dishonors its fathers

00:57:35.580 will not be honored by God. We don't need to be doing this. This is wrong. But then all of a

00:57:40.260 sudden, what happens just three years later is we say, you know what? I like that. That's really

00:57:43.980 good. We should honor our fathers. Let's dust them off. Let's see what they wrote and let's obey.

00:57:49.340 Let's put it into action. And then all of a sudden it's like, no, no, no, no, no. Don't you

00:57:54.240 dare honor your fathers. When we said honor fathers, we didn't mean Calvin. We meant us.

00:58:00.680 us we meant us we went boomers we meant boomer theology we meant honor the theology of your

00:58:07.040 fathers it goes back all the way to the 1960s yeah and not a second before and that's where

00:58:12.760 we are right now yeah anyway so we can land the plane eric any final thoughts yeah no i think

00:58:17.820 that's really good i think the big question as you pointed out um you think about the generational

00:58:23.360 things. It really comes down to, I think, a competition between ancient fathers who were

00:58:31.220 probably right and more modern fathers in multiple senses. Some of them are political,

00:58:36.440 some of them are religious, who are quite obviously wrong. And so what we have to do is

00:58:42.000 you have to make a decision. And what I would just encourage people with is, well, the decision

00:58:47.180 should be made, which father aligns with God's word, which father aligns with the righteousness

00:58:53.380 of scripture. And one of the things I've tended in the last 10 years, say, of my life to really

00:59:00.320 lean on is that on issues like sexuality and biblical interpretation, I put less and less

00:59:08.440 weight on what people today are saying about those things because they've been so unreliable.

00:59:14.660 And so what I am more prone to do is actually to go back to Matthew Henry.

00:59:18.480 I had a pastor tell me one time when I first started my preaching ministry, he said, you

00:59:22.440 know, I would really shy away from reading a lot of modern commentaries about the text.

00:59:29.160 And he said, I would lean on Matthew Henry and John Calvin.

00:59:32.400 And I said, well, do you think that John Calvin just didn't have errors?

00:59:35.440 And he was like, no, I think he did.

00:59:37.200 But his errors weren't our errors.

00:59:39.720 His errors weren't 1970s and after errors.

00:59:42.480 his errors weren't john piper and grudem and complementarian errors you're not going to find

00:59:47.600 that error in john calvin because he didn't care about that right um so i think that's one thing

00:59:52.560 that i would say to people is having the perspective to get out of your time and to read the ancient

00:59:58.460 fathers is going to be really helpful i don't think they're right about everything um you know

01:00:03.020 you know unfortunately joel some of them take the sethite view so we know they're wrong um so

01:00:09.200 yeah for about about 1500 years of them take the sethite view but the oldest if we want to honor

01:00:15.740 our ancient fathers yes our oldest fathers they believe the bible that's exactly right so fallen

01:00:21.600 angels that exactly fallen angels all the way on a cosmos go listen yeah so but but but in all

01:00:28.380 seriousness i think it's like being aware of that and then i would just encourage people to to step

01:00:32.840 back and just think about what's happening uh in this moment and say okay is this historical

01:00:39.860 you know meaning like you know people are losing their minds i've done this before joel

01:00:44.600 i remember reading a book about abraham lincoln and it was like abraham lincoln was a tyrant

01:00:49.460 and i was like excuse me that is not what they told me in public school and for for a half second

01:00:54.620 i was upset but then you know sort of by the grace of god it's like okay well let's examine

01:00:59.260 the argument though let's just hear the guy out let's hear what he has to say and you start reading

01:01:03.200 it and you're like okay there might be a valid case here you know and and so because of those

01:01:09.300 things that they've happened in my life so many times where I was a dispensationalist forever and

01:01:14.060 then I read David Chilton and I was like wait a minute I didn't even know this other view existed

01:01:18.300 so that has caused me to be a lot slower to bash somebody like Stephen Wolfe and and I didn't I

01:01:25.040 mean I saw we probably all did you saw the quotes in the beginning and people like these are

01:01:29.100 problematic and i was like you know i'm gonna i'm gonna reserve judgment i'm gonna read the dang

01:01:33.160 book and then i read the book and i was like i don't know this seems historical so that's what

01:01:39.900 i think a lot of people especially on twitter need to do is slow down do the reading you know

01:01:44.540 how many of these people who are being hypercritical they still haven't read the book

01:01:48.040 and they don't intend to haven't a few of them i you know have at least they've said i read the

01:01:54.220 book um you know and they'll do a screenshot of a page or two i don't know if they read it

01:01:58.540 carefully but here's here's part of the problem and i'll just be honest i won't instead of calling

01:02:02.840 everyone else dumb i'll just go ahead and call myself dumb um steven wolf's book is a difficult

01:02:09.280 book yeah um and so number one yeah 95 of people who are angry on twitter have not read the book 0.97

01:02:17.060 i can just about guarantee that but even the five percent that have and of those five percent some

01:02:22.340 of them still saying, well, I did read the book and it's terrible. Um, I'll just speak for myself,

01:02:28.160 but let the listener understand the point that I'm making. I don't know if, uh, if I caught

01:02:33.940 everything in the, I feel like a little bit of it went over my, like Steven is writing at a very

01:02:38.920 academic level. And a lot of us who even did read the book, um, may not be qualified to comment

01:02:47.040 on the book yeah but we're like honestly like see that and that's the difficulty this is where we go

01:02:54.280 back and forth right so it's like me and you were doing a podcast right now and a bunch of people

01:02:57.300 are going to listen and this goes back to the whole gatekeeping and institutions the whole nine

01:03:00.720 yards but like because we don't have our institutions are corrupt and and a lot of them

01:03:07.440 are being you know broken down and destroyed right now and and and they're falling into ruins

01:03:12.420 um it's like the luther thing right so you know that it's like if you do this if luther translates

01:03:18.220 you know from the latin vulgate into you know the vulgar tongue that you know the common tongue

01:03:22.240 then you're going to have you know open up the floodgate of iniquity you know luther so be it 0.99

01:03:26.140 you know you're going to have 45 000 different denominations which is what we have today 0.91

01:03:30.120 and and what i've always told people is i i've said better to have a needle of truth in a haystack 0.82

01:03:35.960 of falsehoods than to have, instead of a haystack, you have a bushel of wheat, nice and trim and all

01:03:43.360 bound up, wrapped together, but there's no needle at all. There's no truth, right? That's what Rome

01:03:47.940 was. Well, you've got Luther, God's giving reformation, theological reformation, but also

01:03:53.280 in his providence, he's giving innovation, technological innovation teamed up with that

01:03:59.460 theological reformation. And that's what we have, again, with social media, with podcasting, with

01:04:03.500 the internet, you know, thanks to Al Gore. But, you know, like, but what we have, it's the same

01:04:09.400 kind of thing. I think there's some theological reformation happening right now, teamed up in

01:04:14.380 God's sovereignty, his providence, with a technological innovation. And what it allows for

01:04:20.000 is truth. But it also does allow for the peanut gallery. And there, you know, I'm a bit of a

01:04:27.340 peanut gallery person myself from time to time. It allows for the peanut gallery to be behind a

01:04:31.920 microphone and so my point is like everybody has an opinion and honestly i'd rather it be that i'd

01:04:37.400 rather have the mess that we have on twitter because a lot of people are bothered by it and

01:04:40.820 sure it's frustrating um but i'm glad i'm glad that that there's something outside of the status

01:04:47.660 quo being talked about i'm glad that we have an old idea that's not just more post-war you know

01:04:54.820 consensus i'm glad that we're dusting off some kind of stuff now everyone's talking about it and

01:04:59.620 not everybody's qualified to talk about it. And I would, in some sense, include myself in that.

01:05:05.540 I don't think that I have the academic know-how, the philosophical, political, theological

01:05:12.360 understanding that Stephen Wolf does. I don't. And a lot of people who don't like his book,

01:05:17.260 they don't either. That's my point. They don't. They're not really qualified to have a credible

01:05:23.240 opinion, but I defend their right to have an opinion. And I'm glad that we've gotten out,

01:05:28.480 we've broken out of the bubble, the ivory tower where we're getting to hear multiple different

01:05:32.900 voices. But I think we just need to recognize that what we're seeing right now, it's not novel.

01:05:39.340 It's not pressing on to this new unheard of foreign thing. It's really just turning a chapter

01:05:44.240 back in the story that God's been writing these past 2000 years of church history. And we're just

01:05:49.840 now hearing it because the mold has been broken in a technological innovative sense in God's

01:05:55.460 providence to where voices that before the regime would have crushed they never would have seen the

01:06:01.220 light of day steven wolf um never would have made his way into a pulpit um you know before before

01:06:07.920 the internet and these kinds of things if it wasn't for canon that book's not getting published

01:06:11.960 crossway's not publishing the case for christian nationalism no way you know and so so it's it's a

01:06:17.320 miraculous incredible thing that's happening right now but it my point is just like the reformation

01:06:22.580 it's a messy thing yeah and and and and i think it's just going to be that for a while it's going

01:06:27.540 to be messy but it's good because better to have a mess with some truth in there than to have nice

01:06:34.940 clean tidy you know no mess but also no no truth oh big time well and you know just to put it in 1.00

01:06:44.480 historical perspective too you know um even this week on twitter you know i've got the feminists 0.92

01:06:51.040 are mad whatever a lot of christians are mad too how dare a pastor speak so harsh you already said

01:06:56.660 the feminist you don't have to repeat yourself exactly but but it was uh really interesting

01:07:01.480 because uh my oldest boy is reading uh the bondage of the will and uh reading through some other

01:07:07.540 literature of luther for uh you know third form in saint brandon's academy and uh he was telling

01:07:13.220 me he was pretty funny he goes yeah you know our teacher showed us your twitter today dad and

01:07:17.440 she said i gotta say i'm a little disappointed and i was like really what are you disappointed

01:07:22.140 about son and he said well you're a little soft let me read you some of the things luther said

01:07:26.340 and he's reading them and i'm like wait that's in the i don't remember that i have to go back

01:07:31.000 and read that and then you think about it and it's like we have just no idea where where did

01:07:36.100 all of the like pietistic language and like you know when you get in a disagreement with somebody

01:07:40.820 on twitter it's got to be like oh brother i yearn for your soul above the highest heavens

01:07:46.220 that ye shall repent

01:07:47.640 and that you would come to a proper

01:07:50.160 understanding of not being a racist, bigoted,

01:07:52.580 anti-whatever.

01:07:54.400 And you're like, okay, just

01:07:55.260 you know, again, put it in

01:07:58.220 historical perspective.

01:08:00.340 Anytime you have a Reformation, as you said,

01:08:02.320 it's going to be messy. What was

01:08:04.180 Luther like?

01:08:05.800 Was he like, you know, winsome,

01:08:08.200 Matt Chandler type guy? No.

01:08:10.520 There's going to be men at the front of this

01:08:12.260 thing who are doing the fighting and trust me

01:08:14.280 when the fighting comes, these are the men you want.

01:08:17.080 And so I think, again, we'll see that.

01:08:19.240 We'll see more of the shifting.

01:08:20.780 Keep in mind, Stephen Wolf's an intellectual.

01:08:22.760 I think he's done a phenomenal job.

01:08:24.400 I think what you're going to see, though, is people who take up that mantle who are a little bit more brawlers and street fighters.

01:08:31.160 And that's when it's going to get interesting.

01:08:33.280 And I think that's a good thing for the church.

01:08:34.920 I think it's a good thing for the future of America.

01:08:38.180 I do not think that democratic pluralism is a healthy, happy future.

01:08:43.000 We've already seen the fruit of that. 0.99

01:08:44.540 Really sucks. 0.98

01:08:45.300 Right. 0.99

01:08:45.400 it's not sustainable and that's the thing people are like oh this is you know but your attitude or

01:08:49.980 this or that and like yeah we want to be godly i'm not trying to excuse sin yeah but but again

01:08:54.700 what i'm saying is all of this is an improvement big all of it's an improvement big time like

01:08:59.900 luther was an improvement to indulgences and relics and so too uh and so too disrespectful 0.86

01:09:06.500 at times disrespectful memes on twitter are an improvement to the globo homo um regime that we 0.88

01:09:14.740 current that that we currently have um so you know again that doesn't mean like oh so you have 0.90

01:09:20.500 to be mean you have to be rude you have to be disrespectful sure we should we should try uh to

01:09:25.540 have you know have our cake and eat it too we should try to be godly yeah and persuasive um

01:09:30.760 but what i'm saying is that uh talk about you know straining gnats and swallowing camels the

01:09:36.020 biggest problem in evangelicalism and in our nation and in the world right now is not a few

01:09:42.700 rough and tumble guys reformed uh guys in their 30s on twitter that i mean to think i mean i i

01:09:49.560 just i you have to have so lost the thread to think that that is the biggest problem if you

01:09:56.560 think that that um that a guy advocating for christian nationalism is your enemy and that

01:10:02.360 that's the big threat then you have but but here's the thing you just you're just gone here's the

01:10:08.460 think this is what's crazy is again because of luther everybody talks about luther and the

01:10:14.620 reformation but there was advances going on with the printing press and having people who would

01:10:19.120 publish it and all these things so the the the media or the medium was a huge part of the

01:10:24.580 reformation you could not have had that without mass producing pamphlets well and there were

01:10:29.200 memes we're going after something uh very important here and because of twitter and because of all

01:10:34.700 these things like you and i are not you know massive we're not simon and schuster you know

01:10:39.720 uh canon press is not simon and schuster but we have access to amazon now so because of the

01:10:44.020 technological medium advancements uh we're able to get our messages out there and and this is true

01:10:50.460 we are we are a threat which is why you have like why the heck is jenna ellis talking about like

01:10:56.660 the danger of christian nationalism like why does she even care so that's the the craziness of it

01:11:03.060 But I think we should also be encouraged that you can have so little resources, right?

01:11:10.640 But if you have the truth, you have so little resources, but you have the truth.

01:11:14.640 You can go and look and you're like,

01:11:16.040 how come Russell Moore has this kind of big platform on social media

01:11:19.180 and there's zero engagement?

01:11:21.160 You ever wondered that?

01:11:22.420 Nobody cares, Russ.

01:11:23.960 And then you go to our accounts and it's like,

01:11:25.480 well, we had to build our accounts based on quality content.

01:11:28.540 That's a fair free market type approach.

01:11:31.500 like your content does well because people like it and people are essentially voting for it and

01:11:36.880 and many people voting you know to destroy you but you know that aside um i i think it should

01:11:43.380 be an encouragement to a lot of people that's like this sleeper movement could actually do a

01:11:47.780 great thing and i would also encourage people like it's the same thing tucker carlson did with

01:11:53.020 andrew tate he forced masculinity into the mainstream conversation and everybody was mad

01:11:58.380 like why would you interview andrew you know why would canon publish christian nationals well here

01:12:03.600 we are talking about it and here like people at the top are talking about this theory and they're

01:12:09.540 sending fbi people and all that good stuff too so it matters it is making inroads it's effective

01:12:15.380 and you know that's a good strategy to say like what does the enemy hate

01:12:19.140 well why right you know because it's effective they know it yep yep uh christ in politics

01:12:27.980 I think in, yeah, Christ in politics,

01:12:31.560 the civil magistrate actually being consciously Christian.

01:12:37.660 And then God's design for men and women.

01:12:42.380 I think those are two of the biggest patriarchy 0.81

01:12:45.020 and Christian nationalism right now. 0.82

01:12:46.840 It's just, it's not a coincidence

01:12:48.340 that those two things get a ton of engagement

01:12:51.160 and get a ton of pushback.

01:12:53.180 All right, well, thanks for coming on the show, Eric.

01:12:54.700 I really appreciate it.

01:12:55.660 Yeah, absolutely, Joel.

01:12:56.520 My pleasure.

01:12:57.140 We'll be right back.

The NXR Podcast - October 17, 2023

THEOLOGY APPLIED - Honoring Fathers & Mothers, Even When They’re Boomers with Eric Conn

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