The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - How Did The Nephilim Survive The Flood？ with Dr. Tim Chaffey

00:00:00.000 In less than a year, our podcast has gone from an average of 10,000 downloads a month to 50,000

00:00:05.320 downloads. What made the difference? You leaving us a five-star review. The more positive reviews,

00:00:11.660 the more the algorithm picks us up, and more people are confronted by the law and gospel

00:00:17.060 of Jesus Christ. Help us press forward the crown rights of King Jesus by leaving us a five-star

00:00:24.060 review on your favorite podcast platform thanks how did the nephilim survive the flood right it 0.99

00:00:31.140 seems like one of the chief purposes in god sending a global flood was to wipe out these

00:00:36.620 humanoids these demonic offspring hybrid half watcher fallen angel and half daughters of men 0.97

00:00:44.660 to wipe them off the face of the planet it seems a little bit well careless on god's part to flood 0.97

00:00:51.840 the whole earth to kill all human beings and all creatures, all animals, but somehow miss 0.97

00:00:57.580 the Nephilim. But we know that the Nephilim are on the earth after the flood. We see that in the 0.84

00:01:04.080 book of Numbers. We see that in the conquest of Canaan, the bad report that's brought back by the

00:01:09.720 12 Hebrew spies. The Nephilim are among them. The giants are there in the land. So how did the 1.00

00:01:16.660 Nephilim survived the flood, or perhaps the better question is, how did they return if the flood was

00:01:22.060 successful? These are the questions that we answer in today's episode of Theology Applied

00:01:26.820 with my special guest, Dr. Tim Chafee, who's written close to about a 500-page book on the

00:01:33.440 subject. I'm Pastor Joel Webin, and this is Right Response Ministries. Tune in now.

00:01:39.100 Applying God's Word to every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied.

00:01:46.660 All right. Welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied. I'm privileged to have once

00:01:53.900 again, this is part two now, Dr. Tim Chafee joining us today. Thanks, Tim, for coming on

00:01:59.620 the show. How are you doing? I'm doing great, Joel. Thanks for having me.

00:02:02.780 Absolutely. So if you're tuning into this and you did not watch part one,

00:02:07.080 you're welcome to stick with us, but you also can go back and check that out on our YouTube channel

00:02:11.300 or on any podcast platform, iTunes or Spotify.

00:02:17.200 But the first part, what we discussed is who are the Nephilim?

00:02:20.460 Who are the Nephilim?

00:02:21.520 How does this lead to the giants?

00:02:22.960 These kinds of things, the fallen angels.

00:02:25.680 And what we did was we went over the three most popular views,

00:02:29.160 the Sethite view, the, what do you call it, Tim?

00:02:32.540 The kingly view?

00:02:34.540 Yeah, the royalty view or divine king's view.

00:02:36.680 Got you.

00:02:37.040 Okay, so the royalty view and then the view that Tim and I hold,

00:02:40.980 which is the fallen angel view. And so that's what we did. So who are the Nephilim? You know,

00:02:46.200 how did this come about? And now what we're going to do today is really focus because some of the

00:02:50.520 questions that we got in the YouTube comments were, okay, well, that's great. That explains

00:02:54.960 the Nephilim in their origin in the first place. But how, what is, it seems like God failed. If

00:03:00.720 we're not careful here, he sends a worldwide flood and you guys are asserting, Dr. Chafee

00:03:06.460 is asserting that one of the primary purposes of this flood is to wipe out the Nephilim,

00:03:12.540 but then it seems as though somehow they return, because you see in Numbers, you know, with Joshua

00:03:17.620 and Caleb and the spies sent out from Israel. And so did God fail? Did God, you know, miss them

00:03:24.080 somehow? So here's the question right out the gate that I want to throw at you, Dr. Chafee.

00:03:28.380 how did the nephilim survive or return which one how okay uh they didn't survive so we know there

00:03:38.220 were only eight people who survived the flood uh it's noah his wife their three sons and the three

00:03:43.060 daughters-in-law uh peter tells us that as well only eight souls survived the flood so there were

00:03:48.100 no nephilim surviving the flood incidentally the other views especially the set that view

00:03:53.800 usually need to have a one of the daughters-in-law carrying that genetic code through the flood i

00:04:02.680 don't hold to that i don't think that's accurate um the the solution is that there was a second

00:04:08.960 incursion and that's i think you get that in genesis 6 4 so remember moses is writing this

00:04:14.940 passage and he's living long after the flood and he is writing this at a time where they know there

00:04:20.900 our Nephilim in the land. That's what we're told in Numbers 13. And so he says the Nephilim were

00:04:26.420 on the earth in those days, speaking about before the flood, Genesis 6, 4, and also afterward. And

00:04:32.660 the next word there in our Bible is so key, and very few of them get it right. The Hebrew word is

00:04:38.440 asher. And if you look in our different Hebrew grammars, like Gesanias' grammar, and I think

00:04:43.860 Wauke's another one, they both say when this word is used in this way, it refers to an event that

00:04:49.820 happened in the past and was repeated either at regular or irregular intervals so in other words

00:04:54.820 it should be whenever not when and so most of our bibles will say the nephilim were on the earth in

00:05:00.280 those days and also afterward when the sons of god did this activity which makes it very ambiguous

00:05:06.280 were the nephilim already around when this was taking place and um who are they we don't even

00:05:13.200 know who the nephilim are then the whole inclusion of them in the passage makes no sense but if the

00:05:19.800 word is understood as whenever, everything is clarified. The Nephilim were on the earth in

00:05:24.160 those days before the flood, and also afterward, whenever the sons of God did this. So that tells 0.62

00:05:28.580 us how the Nephilim got there. They're the result of these illicit unions, and it happened before 0.95

00:05:34.020 the flood, and it also happened after the flood. Very helpful. So these fallen angels, like I know

00:05:39.560 the book of Enoch, which I think there are some things that are helpful, but it's not canon. It's

00:05:44.340 not scripture. So we obviously read the book of Enoch with a grain of salt. But I do think that

00:05:49.620 Christians are welcome to read, you know, some of the apocrypha books that are not biblical, but,

00:05:54.740 but, you know, you can look at these things and you see Peter even kind of referencing,

00:05:58.020 you know, different, different biblical authors that, that kind of reference Enoch. Now the book

00:06:03.640 of Enoch, if I remember correctly, I think he gets very specific about there being 200 watchers. And

00:06:09.200 we don't know if that's actually true or not. But my question is these, you know, these fallen

00:06:15.900 angels and just for the record some people use the term watchers because i think that's what

00:06:19.880 appears in the book of enoch and whether that's a proper classification for this particular angelic

00:06:24.960 being or not my understanding is that you know what what's what's being what's trying to be

00:06:30.000 conveyed in that instance is that there are god facing angels and there are man facing angels and

00:06:34.700 the man facing angels are not inherently um worldly you know uh and uh carnal um but but

00:06:40.920 they're actually by god's design that is their purpose and so like the book of hebrews says are

00:06:45.220 not all angels ministering spirits to serve, you know, to come alongside and minister to

00:06:50.660 the sons of Abraham who are to inherit eternal life. And so there's this sense of there are

00:06:55.900 angels like messenger angels, Gabriel, you know, things like that. But then we also know there are

00:07:00.660 seraphim and the four living creatures, you know, with six wings and the 24 elders that it seems as

00:07:05.460 though their 24-7 purpose is to be Godward facing around the throne of God, paying him homage day

00:07:12.440 a night, and so watchers, those angels who were facing man, looking towards man, of this

00:07:19.220 classification of angels, if you want to use that rhetoric, and I would love to get your

00:07:22.960 thoughts in just a moment on that, Enoch says that there are 200 of those that it seems

00:07:27.640 as though they initially fell from heaven, but it is not necessarily that all 200 of

00:07:33.720 them engaged in this illicit union, forbidden union with the daughters of men all at the

00:07:41.040 same time, pre-flood, antediluvian, it could be entirely possible that the number is kind of

00:07:47.320 irrelevant, but let's say, you know, X many amount of angels chose to rebel against God,

00:07:52.740 and the rebellion all happened at one time. So it's not multiple rebellions, angels falling from

00:07:56.820 heaven, but of those angels that did fall from heaven, a sub-portion of those pre-flood during 0.76

00:08:02.780 the days of Noah tried to create and successfully created this hybrid offspring. And then some other 0.85

00:08:10.940 of these fallen angels uh did it again is is that the way that we would communicate that and what

00:08:16.760 do you think about the watchers and you know what helped me out with the things i've said thus far

00:08:20.480 all right i'll see if i can keep all that straight that's a lot of stuff right um so the term watchers

00:08:26.340 is used in daniel 4 when you have uh nebuchadnezzar's dream about the tree that's cut and

00:08:31.280 everything uh talks about how watcher came from heaven so you know this is the decree of the

00:08:35.100 watchers that nebuchadnezzar is going to be humbled um so that term does appear in in daniel

00:08:41.100 and then it is picked up in the intertestamental literature like enoch i don't i don't think the

00:08:45.880 book of enoch was written by the antediluvian enoch i think it is a apocryphal uh intertestamental

00:08:52.400 period book and is like you said not um not scriptural but yeah jude does quote from it and

00:08:58.160 he alludes to it multiple times uh he clearly expected his audience to know it he uses terminology

00:09:03.840 like Enoch the seventh from Adam, which comes right from, using that terminology, comes right

00:09:08.260 from the book of Enoch. He even quotes it, verse 14 and 15 is a direct quote from the book of

00:09:13.660 Enoch. It changes one word. It changes, I think it changes God to Lord or him to Lord, something

00:09:20.440 like that, so that it is, by Jude's time, it's specifying that it's about Jesus who's coming

00:09:25.560 in judgment. So that's kind of an interesting tweak that Jude makes for his own purposes.

00:09:33.840 So, yeah, there's nothing wrong with using the term watchers. And I think that's helpful the way you described it. There are certain classes of angelic beings. They're not all the same. And I think that when we are with the Lord, I think we're going to be very surprised at the diversity of spiritual beings that are there rather than just the cherub.

00:09:55.700 You know, the pictures we see of the little chubby kid floating around with Cupid's bow or something like that, or, you know, just the traditional American view of angel.

00:10:03.420 I think we're going to be shocked that they're quite diverse and have different capabilities, different abilities, different roles.

00:10:10.040 And you outlined some of those. I think that was helpful.

00:10:11.980 um so with that um the so you have yeah enoch talks about 200 and names 20 of them that come

00:10:21.900 together and under a guy under one named samyaza uh who have this pact that we're gonna if we're

00:10:27.880 really gonna rebel against god if we're really gonna leave you know our proper abode essentially

00:10:33.880 then you have to swear that you're gonna do this uh with these women and so they make this pact to

00:10:38.520 do it um again that i think that's all speculative because it's from a non-canonical work but um

00:10:45.580 whether or not it was the same angels who did it before and after the flood versus

00:10:51.480 some of them did it uh some of the sons of god did it before the flood they're imprisoned and

00:10:57.440 then some other ones did it after the flood i think both are possibilities right i lean towards

00:11:01.820 that that latter view but but you're right both are possibilities but that's been my understanding

00:11:05.320 is that, you know, lots of angels fell, but not all of these fallen angels took the daughters of

00:11:12.480 men and saw them as lovely and came into them. And so my thought is that they all rebelled against

00:11:18.700 God, but some had the audacity to rebel even further, a subgroup of that initial swath of

00:11:24.720 angels that fell from heaven. And those who actually, you know, engage in these illicit unions,

00:11:30.840 their offspring, the Nephilim, were wiped out from the flood, and then those fallen angels

00:11:35.240 themselves, the flood wouldn't wipe them out because, and you correct me if I'm wrong here,

00:11:40.080 but I think in Genesis, when it starts to talk about the flood, it says everything on earth that

00:11:46.160 had breath in its lungs. And so the angels themselves, I feel like the Nephilim could not, 0.59

00:11:53.940 did not, could not survive the flood, but their angelic fallen, angelic fathers could, but it

00:12:00.560 seems as though their fathers, the solution for that is that, whether it be the Archangel Michael,

00:12:07.000 that they were locked away in gloomy dungeons. But then that leaves the possibility that even

00:12:13.320 with that view, that only a portion of these fallen angels, the ones who actually engage in

00:12:18.340 this illicit union, they're locked away in gloomy dungeons. But the other fallen angels

00:12:22.520 are not wiped out in the flood because their angelic beings are able to survive the flood.

00:12:27.580 and and so then they continue on the earth after the flood and then again another sub portion of

00:12:33.160 them go back to this strategy of this illicit union and create the nephilim again and that

00:12:37.960 could have even happened not just a second time after the flood but even multiple times is that

00:12:42.500 plausible yeah i think i think that's plausible i tend to lean a little toward the them being the

00:12:49.320 same ones rather than different um tell me why yeah certainly um jude and peter both in first

00:12:56.740 and second peter speak of these spirits who are in prison or spirits who are in chains of darkness

00:13:00.320 till the great day the great day spirits who sinned in the days of noah um and we know there's a

00:13:05.580 certain group of of angelic beings who are locked away until the day of judgment by the time peter

00:13:12.180 and jude write um not all of them because obviously you got the demons running around

00:13:16.940 if that's who they were if they were fallen angels right i actually do want to get to that

00:13:20.640 like if you agree with hyzer on the disembodied nephilim spirits but we can we can table that

00:13:25.680 So certainly not all the angels are held in chains of darkness.

00:13:31.420 Certain ones who sinned in Noah's day were held.

00:13:34.300 Now, were they confined there at the time of the flood?

00:13:39.040 And that's what you just alluded to.

00:13:41.680 And I think that's certainly a plausible way to read that passage.

00:13:44.340 I don't think that you could ever prove that wrong.

00:13:46.760 I tend to think that it happened at the time of the crucifixion, resurrection, that time period.

00:13:52.200 So in Psalm 82 is where you get the God's pronouncement of judgment on these entities.

00:14:00.500 So it tells us this is the divine council passes where God takes his stand in the divine council.

00:14:06.980 He judges among the gods.

00:14:09.180 And there he talks about how I said you are gods, yet you're going to fall like men, like one of the princes.

00:14:14.880 or um and or you're going to die like men is what he says and fall like any prince um so

00:14:22.860 there in psalm 82 they were supposed to be judging justly that's what he tells them in

00:14:29.260 verses two and three and then then we read what they were doing they were showing favoritism

00:14:33.440 they were oppressing the poor they were doing all sorts of wicked things and they weren't doing the

00:14:37.680 job that they were tasked with and then at the very end of the psalm verse eight says arise oh

00:14:43.060 god and judge the earth for you shall inherit all nations i think that's a reference to this

00:14:49.500 the judgment and the first word there in that psalm and again i'm not going to say this is a

00:14:55.260 watertight watertight argument that you can't refute it but the very first word used there in

00:15:00.660 the septuagint is anastasis it's arise resurrect so it's maybe it's a hint that that is when this

00:15:07.020 happened so between the crucifixion and resurrection jesus descends to proclaim victory

00:15:14.180 perhaps whatever that proclamation is that he made maybe it's to proclaim victory maybe at that time

00:15:19.380 is when they're they're sentenced um or confined so i lean toward that but i'm open to the other

00:15:25.440 one as well and what's interesting about that psalm is well there's a lot of interesting things

00:15:32.100 jesus quotes from it in john 10 and that part about you are gods and um but when it says arise

00:15:38.780 oh god and judge the earth for you shall inherit all nations that goes back to deuteronomy 32 8

00:15:43.560 where moses is telling the people in his kind of his farewell address to ask your fathers and they

00:15:50.680 will tell you and he starts talking about the babble event when god separated the nations

00:15:55.400 according to the a lot of our bible say sons of israel but the textual evidence that we have

00:16:00.900 before us from the Dead Sea Scrolls, also the Septuagint, it's sons of God, the B'nai Elohim.

00:16:08.180 So at Babel, he separated the nations according to the number of the sons of God. 0.76

00:16:14.040 And so there were 70 nations at Babel that split out according to Genesis chapter 10.

00:16:18.620 So I think rather than 200, I think 70 is probably more likely.

00:16:22.440 Wow, that's helpful.

00:16:24.120 And then right after that, it says, but Israel is God's inheritance.

00:16:29.380 uh jacob his allotted inheritance so at that time at babel god says you don't want me you know i i

00:16:37.440 gave you a chance to start over after the flood and you still reject me okay now you're going to

00:16:42.120 be under their control these 70 um rebellious beings so kind of god delegating them and yeah

00:16:49.100 and the devil kind of being the the top dog but him having his his viceroys or you know that 70

00:16:55.920 different fallen angels that are actually like princes and principalities like a principality

00:17:00.980 being like a province in canada or a state in the united states so that's an area geographic area

00:17:05.120 but the princes are not the actual human kings but the but the the spirits are the fallen angel

00:17:10.860 that is residing um over that that area like the prince of persia is speaking of a daniel plan yeah

00:17:18.080 so is that what you're saying yeah i think that's a pretty good way to think about it

00:17:22.560 And so they were given a certain region to rule over, and instead of leading their people

00:17:27.660 in justice and righteousness, they lead their people into idolatry and all sorts of wickedness,

00:17:33.400 and then God judges them. 1.00

00:17:35.120 So at Deuteronomy 32, it's Israel is your allotted inheritance. 0.87

00:17:41.020 At Psalm 82, once they're judged, and this is another reason why I think it's at the 0.78

00:17:45.000 time of the crucifixion, resurrection, Pentecost, that time period, arise, O God, and judge

00:17:49.960 your earth, for you shall inherit all nations.

00:17:51.600 that's when the message then goes out to all nations and so it's almost as if god sets up

00:17:56.380 this little contest that um tells these rebellious beings you keep rebelling against me fine you can

00:18:01.920 have all the people i'm going to take one guy and and he's not even around yet but i'm going to take

00:18:07.360 this guy called abraham and i'm going to win all of the stuff i said is going to come to pass is

00:18:11.560 going to come to pass um and so we can't yeah and when you see the old testament in that light

00:18:18.160 suddenly it so many passages start to become very very clear that god is not just showing his power

00:18:26.520 over israel which he does that or over egypt um and the various nations but he's also demonstrating

00:18:33.360 his authority over the gods of those nations like exodus 12 12 says i will i will execute judgment

00:18:38.340 on all the gods of egypt well each of the 10 plagues was a direct strike against one of the

00:18:42.280 gods of egypt so that the israelites would know ra is not more powerful than yahweh and hotep or

00:18:49.100 all these other ones are not more powerful than yahweh yahweh is the one true god the god of heaven

00:18:53.280 and earth finally a coffee company that doesn't hate you and your beliefs today's sponsor squirrely

00:19:00.380 joe's coffee is a thoroughly christian company that ships seriously good coffee straight to your

00:19:06.020 front door, owned and operated by Joe Morris and his family out of Olney, Illinois. They believe

00:19:12.820 that Christians should be building a thoroughly Christian economy by doing business with other

00:19:18.180 like-minded Christians. They also donate a portion of their proceeds to Operation Underground Railroad

00:19:25.340 to help end child trafficking. Just go to squirrelyjoes.com and use promo code RRM for

00:19:33.400 20% off your purchase. Squirrely Joe's coffee, share coffee, serve humbly, live faithfully.

00:19:46.560 Join Douglas Wilson, Dr. Joseph Boot, Brian Sauve, Eric Kahn, and myself on March 1st,

00:19:53.300 2nd, and 3rd for our 2024 conference. It's called Blueprints for Christendom 2.0.

00:19:59.620 go and visit right response conference.com to register today we hope to see you at the conference

00:20:06.400 in march with that being said though in 10 plagues the gods ploy of egypt and then going

00:20:18.080 back to that prince and principality and 70 uh total uh sons of god fallen angels did did egypt

00:20:25.620 Did that particular geographic region, instead of getting one, did they get ten or something like that?

00:20:30.700 How do we think about that?

00:20:32.240 Yeah, so that's a good question.

00:20:33.340 I wonder if there are the chief ones, maybe 70, and then there are underlings, in a sense.

00:20:38.140 If you think of the Greeks, the Olympian gods, in a sense they're equals, but Zeus is the head.

00:20:47.960 And then the Canaanites have this very similar thing with El and Baal.

00:20:52.660 as there so this pantheon of gods but there's still this one chief one who's over them and i

00:20:59.440 think egypt had something similar to that i think the sumerians had something similar to that and so

00:21:05.900 a lot of these early cultures seem to have something i think the philistines also with

00:21:09.600 like dagon i think he was more significant than all the other gods in the pantheon you know like

00:21:14.700 where and and that's and that's the top dog that that falls over when the ark is brought in you

00:21:19.460 You know, it's like they find him and he's toppled over.

00:21:21.320 His hands, you know, are broken off.

00:21:22.900 Well, the first time he's just fallen over.

00:21:24.420 Then they come back up.

00:21:25.480 The second time, the guy's like, let's make sure you get this.

00:21:28.760 It wasn't just, he wasn't just misplaced.

00:21:30.800 Let me make the illustration a little bit more on the nose.

00:21:33.940 Right.

00:21:34.400 And that's another great example where God's showing his power over the gods of the people.

00:21:39.020 And the Philistines got it at that point.

00:21:40.940 They always referred to the ark as the ark of the God of Israel.

00:21:45.920 And so it helps you understand, once you understand that mindset, it helps you understand why the Israelites kept falling into idolatry. 1.00

00:21:53.620 We look back at that and think, you guys are so stupid. 0.99

00:21:56.180 The God that brought you out of Egypt and part of the Red Sea and did all these amazing things, why are you turning to these other gods? 1.00

00:22:03.660 Well, because they viewed the land as being attached to the deity. 0.82

00:22:09.440 And so if the Philistines were threatening them or were overpowering them, 0.88

00:22:15.680 then their God must be more powerful. 0.88

00:22:17.440 So worship the more powerful God.

00:22:19.500 It's why when...

00:22:21.460 Doesn't even, I think Ezekiel talks about like,

00:22:24.300 perhaps we can beat them on the plains.

00:22:26.300 Their gods are the gods of the mountains, or I might have it backwards, but...

00:22:29.100 Not Ezekiel, but that is with, is it Ben-Hadad or the Arameans?

00:22:34.420 Oh, I think it's in 1st or 2nd Kings.

00:22:37.240 Yes.

00:22:37.660 That's right.

00:22:38.680 Yeah, he uses that example.

00:22:40.840 It was like, oh, yeah, they're gods, a god of valleys.

00:22:42.440 If we met them on the plains or vice versa, then no, God's the god of heaven and earth and all things. 0.77

00:22:47.300 But that was, but what you're saying is that, yeah, so God, Yahweh, the one true triune God, he is God of all. 0.79

00:22:52.620 But it wasn't stupidity as the way we as moderns would read it in terms of lesser gods falling. 0.60

00:22:58.720 Like there actually were other gods, lowercase g gods, and they did have geographic jurisdictions. 0.98

00:23:04.900 So the concept of there being a mountain god or a valley god is, not only is it not stupid, it was probably true.

00:23:14.100 Yeah, and so you have the passage with Naaman the Syrian, what is that, 2 Kings 5, I think, where this leprous military guy who comes to Elisha to be healed.

00:23:26.260 And then he gets upset that Elisha just says, oh yeah, go dip in the Jordan sometime. 0.68

00:23:29.720 And he's like, we've got better rivers where I'm from.

00:23:32.280 But then he does it, and he's cured.

00:23:34.900 And he tried to give Elisha clothes and all sorts of stuff, and Elisha didn't take it.

00:23:40.300 But then he asks for one other thing.

00:23:42.420 He asks for two mule loads of dirt so that he could bring back.

00:23:46.600 Why would he do that?

00:23:47.600 Well, I think it's because he believed that the one true God, Yahweh, the one that cured him, 0.90

00:23:51.920 could be worshipped if he brings that dirt back to his land, and then he worships on that. 0.92

00:23:57.120 Yahweh is, like all the other gods, is a jurisdictional God.

00:24:00.680 And so it's like, he belongs to this land.

00:24:04.360 And there is, you know, there is something to be said, not as it regards the God of heaven and earth, because he's God of all the land.

00:24:11.540 It's all his cattle on not just one hill, but a thousand.

00:24:14.800 But as it pertains to other gods, there is something that seems like to be said, even the instance of, you know, like there's something significant about the land itself,

00:24:25.360 that when God hands people over to judgment, especially in the Old Testament, other nations, but even Israel itself, he says,

00:24:31.420 if you live in this land the way that you know that everybody else did right there's two things

00:24:36.520 god is doing two things simultaneously yes it is about blessing israel fulfilling his good promises

00:24:42.260 for his people but it's not just blessing israel that they might inherit the land

00:24:47.000 but it's also in god's justice 400 years of iniquity having been filled up as god spoke

00:24:52.740 previously to abraham um that god is uh in one instance he is blessing israel and the other he

00:24:58.620 is justly judging the prior inhabitants of the land for their pagan idolatry, their breaching

00:25:05.540 of the first table of the law of God in regards to idolatry, but then also their breach of 0.78

00:25:09.180 the second in regards to the violence in their hands and human sacrifice and theft and all

00:25:15.780 these different things, and of course, sexual immorality. 0.60

00:25:18.580 And so all that being said, God essentially then turns to Israel once they've inherited 0.53

00:25:22.740 the land and says, don't get cocky and think that the land spewed these guys out. And I used you as 0.72

00:25:30.180 my rod to do it, my instrument to bring judgment. But don't think that what's peculiar is inherent

00:25:37.660 to you. If you live like them, this land will spew you out. And it makes me think, God doesn't

00:25:46.080 just say, I'll punish you, but the land will actually turn on you. So one, I think it's

00:25:50.200 important for us to remember that uh that the earth the creation um the earth the creation's

00:25:56.020 allegiance is with its creator the land is on god's side right the rocks will cry out you know

00:26:01.780 if people won't worship the land is on god's side uh it makes me think of chronicles of not even the

00:26:05.920 trees you know are some of the trees are on her side speaking of the white witch that the creation

00:26:10.620 itself has allegiances um but but then also it makes me think the land will spew out because

00:26:15.140 if you dishonor the lord he would abandon and some of these other false gods would come back

00:26:20.860 There would be a return of these false gods.

00:26:22.960 And that makes me think of what Jesus even said about spirits.

00:26:26.260 And this gets into, are they disembodied Nephilim spirits or are they actual watchers, fallen angels?

00:26:30.580 But this idea of when an evil spirit is cast out, it goes through arid places, waterless places, but it doesn't go to the abode.

00:26:40.480 Not yet.

00:26:42.280 It doesn't go to the lake of fire or final judgment, but it goes through, it seems like the earth, waterless places here.

00:26:48.940 in in this created physical cosmos um but eventually if if the house is swept clean and

00:26:54.440 put in order but it's not filled and then it'll come back with seven other you know demons

00:26:59.040 worse than itself and the final state of the man will be far worse than than the former and it

00:27:03.760 makes me think of not just at an individual level but at a corporate and regional level as it

00:27:08.280 pertains to nations and cultures is it possible that uh that that uh a land could a people

00:27:16.320 culturally, corporately could worship Yahweh, but then later on turn in their hearts and

00:27:22.600 abandon him, and then in a sense, in their embrace of Yahweh, especially in the Old

00:27:27.220 Testament before some of the binding and things that Jesus did, we referenced earlier with

00:27:31.820 his death, descent, and resurrection, but pre-Christ, is it possible that a land could

00:27:38.520 worship Yahweh, thinking of like Nineveh, for instance, but then reject him later and

00:27:44.420 actually have some of those old territorial fallen angel gods return and perhaps even return

00:27:50.820 with some of their friends and and i don't know is are those things within the realm of

00:27:56.240 biblical possibility yeah i think so whether whether they team up or one you know you have

00:28:02.740 the prince of greece and the prince of persia they're fighting each other so it's not as if 0.94

00:28:06.520 they're um they're always completely on the same side fighting against yahweh they're they're sinful 0.52

00:28:13.000 prideful as well and maybe that gets the best of them um like it does for us right and so it could

00:28:21.140 be that certain ones are conquering you know subjecting other ones and then they are they're

00:28:26.540 serving them but um yeah i think everything you just talked about with the land being casting

00:28:33.380 them out or or you know that the even the animals would right against them it talks about um so that

00:28:41.320 That was one of the, in fact, that's the reason, essentially, why Israel went into exile for 70 years.

00:28:47.940 Because for 490 years, they didn't give the land its Sabbath rest like they were supposed to do every seven years. 0.53

00:28:53.000 And Jeremiah 25, 11 said, that's why you're going for 70 years. 0.73

00:28:56.680 And they had to do all those Sabbaths at once.

00:28:59.300 Yep. 0.64

00:28:59.840 Retroactive Sabbath.

00:29:01.280 The land was going to get its rest.

00:29:03.440 And Israel used to be a land flowing with milk and honey.

00:29:07.960 And so it was a very rich land.

00:29:11.040 But by the time of Jesus, it's very arid and dry and not as prosperous as it once was.

00:29:17.480 And I think that has a lot to do with the way that the Israelites did not follow God's commands fully.

00:29:26.900 And that was the result. 0.81

00:29:29.240 Right. And by the time Jesus comes on the scene, I mean, he comes to, you know,

00:29:33.900 Israel has, you know, multiple periods of stiff-necked rebellion against God.

00:29:39.140 But it seems as though Jesus comes to a particularly rebellious generation,

00:29:44.880 that he came to his own, they received him not.

00:29:47.840 And so by the time Jesus arrives on the scene, one of the things,

00:29:50.140 and this gets to the question that we kind of set up earlier,

00:29:54.260 but one of the things that I find interesting is Jesus comes to Israel

00:29:58.140 and it seems like part of the lion's share of his ministry

00:30:01.900 is going around casting demons out left and right. 0.91

00:30:05.100 Israel is just filled with demons. 0.97

00:30:07.260 It seems like just filled to the brim with demons, and I don't think that's a coincidence. 0.99

00:30:10.860 I think it's because by the time you get to that particular generation, there's been so much hard-heartedness and rebellion, not to mention 400 years leading up to it.

00:30:20.980 The skies were as bronze.

00:30:22.640 The word of the Lord was very rare in those days, from Malachi to the time of Christ, John the Baptist as a forerunner.

00:30:29.520 And so you've got very little special revelation from the Lord, not that he's being stingy.

00:30:35.260 stingy. He already has provided through the scrolls and through prior prophets everything

00:30:39.560 that Israel would need. He's provided sufficient special revelation. Of course, you also have

00:30:44.040 natural revelation. But there's no new word of the Lord. For 400 years, Israel is becoming

00:30:50.760 darkened in their heart more and more and more. Jesus comes on the scene, and Israel as a nation

00:30:57.500 and that particular land seems to be infested with demonic spirits. Coincidence? I think not.

00:31:04.060 So what are these demonic spirits?

00:31:05.880 What do you think about that?

00:31:08.280 Yeah, so the two primary views are, one, they're just fallen angels.

00:31:11.880 I think that's kind of the default view for most Christians.

00:31:16.180 We hear Jesus talk about the devil and his angels, and then you have these evil spirits or demons that are being cast out.

00:31:22.580 And so we just make that connection, and we think that that's who they are.

00:31:26.860 um the the other view and one that's popular among those who hold the fallen angel view is that the

00:31:33.380 the evil spirits that are being cast out are are the disembodied spirits of nephilim who were killed

00:31:39.240 in the flood and or the following years as israelites are taking the land um and nephilim

00:31:47.140 are there and killed and so that might be hinted at at the passage you alluded to when jesus talks

00:31:53.360 about how when a demon is cast out it goes about in arid places right why arid places it's just

00:31:59.400 it's just wilderness is that is that or is he making a better point that a stronger point that

00:32:03.360 they don't like water because it reminds them of the flood and so sometimes people who hold that

00:32:08.700 view will use that passage as as a evidence for that position i've got a chapter that kind of

00:32:14.640 explores the four primary arguments used for that position that the evil spirits are the departed

00:32:20.760 spirits of the Nephilim. I'm open to it. I probably lean about 65-70% to the more traditional

00:32:29.080 understanding that the evil spirits are just rebellious angels and not necessarily the

00:32:34.300 departed spirits. But I could see either one being accurate.

00:32:40.320 Okay. And then, whether it be disembodied spirits of the Nephilim or fallen angels themselves,

00:32:46.400 in either case it seems like um that they they are desperate for a host so i i i think of you know

00:32:55.080 when uh jesus encounters a particular demoniac and you know he says who you know son of son of

00:33:03.160 god you know son of man have you come to judge us before the appointed time um and you know and

00:33:08.600 then pleads with Jesus not to send him into just a bodiless, existent, arid places, but into the 0.89

00:33:18.760 pigs. And Jesus grants the request. What do you think is going on there? To me, that seems, 0.56

00:33:26.100 in some sense, to back up the, you know, be another example, just like arid places, 0.56

00:33:30.760 waterless places, thinking flood, Nephilim died in the flood. This likewise seems to be like

00:33:36.240 nephilim if it is disembodied nephilim spirits that they that they desperately want to not be

00:33:42.220 disembodied and to be bodied and they prefer you know a human being created in the image of god

00:33:47.060 closer to their original existence um but if not they'll take a pig over nothing yeah i i that i

00:33:54.280 think that's plausible but i i the reason i for a couple reasons i think it's not maybe the best

00:33:59.120 argument is one they immediately run down into the water all right um so if they don't like water

00:34:04.460 Why would they direct the pigs to run right down in the water?

00:34:07.520 I think maybe what's going on there is they're trying to make Jesus' ministry more difficult.

00:34:14.160 Not that Jesus wouldn't have known this, but if suddenly a farmer in the area loses 2,000 pigs,

00:34:19.240 he's losing his livelihood, and he's going to be very upset and tell his neighbors,

00:34:24.340 this guy came over here and ruined my farm.

00:34:26.020 He's a troublemaker. 0.87

00:34:27.200 Gotcha. 1.00

00:34:28.100 Now, he's living in the Decapolis, so that's more of a Greek area. 0.98

00:34:32.160 So I don't think this guy was a Jewish farmer who was not allowed to have pigs like that. 0.93

00:34:36.060 So it's probably more of a Greek, but, um, yeah, so maybe that's, what's going on there 0.99

00:34:41.620 is the demons are trying to be clever that, Hey, don't just cast us out. 0.84

00:34:44.940 Let's go into this, into these things.

00:34:47.020 And then their ulterior motive is let's destroy this guy's livelihood.

00:34:51.140 So then it, so then Jesus gets kicked out of the town, which it seems like they were

00:34:54.600 successful in that, that, that's, that actually makes a lot of sense.

00:34:57.620 okay um so here's kind of a question that i i'd love to get to towards the end of the episode

00:35:04.040 is um where so my understanding you know i have more of a an older view of in terms of a descent

00:35:13.400 so you know like our church is fairly liturgical and uh we we recite the apostles creed uh in our

00:35:19.520 lord's day worship gatherings um however you know uh catholic is a it's a fine word but but just

00:35:24.780 because people are unused to that.

00:35:26.500 We say invisible and universal church.

00:35:28.800 And then the only other tweak that we have is Hades,

00:35:31.920 which some older ones actually say Hades instead of hell

00:35:36.280 in regards to the descent.

00:35:37.460 So my understanding is that Jesus descended in the Spirit

00:35:41.020 to the realm of the dead, into the belly of the earth.

00:35:44.500 And in that place, he's not going to hell per se,

00:35:47.500 but he's going to Hades, the realm of the dead,

00:35:49.260 and that he's in the Spirit on the side of Abraham's bosom,

00:35:53.340 the side of paradise, and he is announcing victory to his own and then ransoms them.

00:36:01.520 And now the way has been paved by his death and atonement, so it ransoms them to heaven.

00:36:07.160 But he also is kind of, per his parable, the rich man and Lazarus, the beggar, proclaiming

00:36:12.660 across that chasm to the damned in a place of torment and even a third, arguably a third

00:36:19.900 section of the realm of the dead, where there are not just people who are damned, but they're

00:36:27.580 actually spirits, angels, that some of those watchers have been locked in gloomy dungeons.

00:36:32.460 And he's, you know, in a sanctified, divine way, you know, proclaiming a sermon, you know,

00:36:37.720 titled Nanny Nanny Boo Boo. And so that's, you know, that's kind of like, that's been my

00:36:41.480 understanding of the descent. And then he, you know, he breaks captives free, you know, and

00:36:46.860 ransoms Abraham and all Old Testament saints now coming with him and brings them into their

00:36:53.540 heavenly abode with God. And that now, as it currently sits in this gospel age,

00:36:59.820 post the incarnation of Christ and his life, death, resurrection, and ascension, 0.93

00:37:04.360 that we still do, we do not yet have the lake of fire, but we still do have the damned

00:37:08.760 in the, in Hades, in a place of torment, Abraham's bosom has been emptied, perhaps maybe some

00:37:17.320 excavating, you know, renovation, making more room for, you know, for future, you know, dammed

00:37:21.820 over these last 2,000 years. And then watchers, those watchers that were imprisoned are still

00:37:26.980 imprisoned. But the other watchers, my question would be, where are they today? Where are these

00:37:34.260 other fallen angels today, if Jesus has, because it does seem as though, you know, and now for me,

00:37:39.920 I'm post-millennial, we've talked about, so I think that the strong man, right, you can't plunder

00:37:43.580 the house unless you first go in and bind the strong man. So I take that to mean that Satan

00:37:47.300 is bound. That doesn't mean that he doesn't still prowl around, that he has no influence whatsoever,

00:37:52.380 but that his leash has been shortened, and to such a degree that if nothing else, he's no longer

00:37:58.120 able to corporately wholesale deceive the nations to the extent that he previously was able to do. 0.71

00:38:04.260 And so we see swaths of Gentiles coming to faith in Jesus Christ in this gospel age. 0.82

00:38:09.860 And so with that, that particularly pertains to Satan. 0.71

00:38:12.100 But if he does have these, you know, these sous chefs or, you know, or viceroys that he's appointed, you know, all over in regional places, it seems like there has been some binding of them as well.

00:38:24.200 Are they now in Hades joining those other watchers or are they still at large today?

00:38:30.200 What do you think about fallen angels today in the year of our Lord, 2023?

00:38:35.180 Where are they?

00:38:36.780 Yeah.

00:38:37.020 So coming from a more of a premillennial perspective, I would look at the binding of Satan and has been a future thing prior to the millennium starting.

00:38:48.300 But I don't think that you and I have to disagree on some of the other things that we're talking about here.

00:38:55.660 So I think there are still angels at large, if you will.

00:38:58.320 You know, so when Satan is called the God of this world or he goes around like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour, I do think he's active.

00:39:04.580 I do think that his ministers are active, which I know you're not saying that he's inactive.

00:39:09.600 I know that. I don't mean to mischaracterize your view.

00:39:13.100 So I do think they're still active and trying to deceive. 0.99

00:39:16.660 And I just think that the the the gospel is the power of God and salvation to those who believe for those who believe first to the Jew, then the Gentile. 0.95

00:39:24.740 And with the Holy Spirit-empowered message going out throughout the world, I think you're seeing people come to faith even in the midst of spiritual darkness and spiritual oppression from these fallen angels.

00:39:43.200 So where are they?

00:39:45.680 Your answer would be that here.

00:39:47.620 Some are still active.

00:39:48.800 And let me confirm the other things you were saying, though, as far as the view of Hades and, you know, Abraham's bosom being emptied.

00:39:55.900 I think that all seems pretty reasonable, pretty, I don't want to say straightforward, because there's not a lot about it in Scripture.

00:40:03.520 But it seems to be what Scripture is teaching there.

00:40:06.880 And, yes, you have Hades.

00:40:10.440 And it was interesting that you said that you changed that word in the creed.

00:40:13.140 I just spoke at a church on Sunday morning that did the exact same thing.

00:40:16.140 Rather than descending into hell, it's descending into Hades.

00:40:18.800 they read that but um the certain ones first peter 3 18 through 20 talks about how

00:40:26.740 there were spirits who let me just read it so i don't misstate it here for christ also suffered

00:40:32.540 once for sins the just for the unjust that he might bring us to god being put to death in the

00:40:36.480 flesh but made alive by the spirit by whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison

00:40:41.000 who were formerly disobedient who i'm sorry who formerly were disobedient when once the divine

00:40:46.000 long-suffering waited in the days of noah while the ark was being prepared so during noah's day

00:40:50.800 these spirits were disobedient now they're held in chains and so that would be a reference to

00:40:56.060 these specific um fallen angels that are or but not all of them like we talked about earlier yep

00:41:04.240 absolutely um and so it's interesting when you when you look at how people who hold the sethite

00:41:09.500 view take that passage they have to do all sorts of strange hermeneutical gymnastics to make that

00:41:15.220 about Jesus preaching through Noah to the sinful people of his day.

00:41:19.840 And that's not what it says.

00:41:21.620 Right.

00:41:22.140 I remember I held that view once upon a time.

00:41:25.240 And I remember getting to that text in Peter and preaching it that way.

00:41:31.080 And it was tough.

00:41:32.820 I definitely struggled with it.

00:41:34.580 I can't remember.

00:41:36.360 I know it was Augustine's view, right?

00:41:38.420 It was Augustine's view, the Sethite view.

00:41:41.560 Oh, yeah.

00:41:41.980 Yeah.

00:41:42.160 Augustine's Sethite view, yeah.

00:41:43.380 Right.

00:41:43.560 And then Clement of Alexander, do you remember what his view was?

00:41:47.280 Clement is a fallen angel guy.

00:41:49.060 That's right.

00:41:49.920 Okay.

00:41:50.340 Yep.

00:41:51.020 But pretty much everybody was a fallen angel guy, it seems, or at least the vast majority

00:41:54.900 up until about, what, 400, 500 AD?

00:41:57.540 Yeah, there was a guy in the third century who promoted more of the royalty view within

00:42:03.480 the church.

00:42:04.220 That came in among rabbis around 90 AD, the royalty view.

00:42:10.220 and then the Sethite view came on

00:42:12.700 sometime in the 300s

00:42:14.300 and then once Augustine adopted that

00:42:16.080 it kind of became the

00:42:18.360 the view of the church

00:42:20.400 he is Augustine after all

00:42:21.720 so it does make a little bit of sense

00:42:23.480 and then Augustine straight line from him all the way to

00:42:26.000 one of those exceedingly rare L's

00:42:28.220 from John Calvin, my boy John Calvin

00:42:30.080 who I, he usually puts up W's

00:42:32.300 but in this case Calvin goes with

00:42:34.320 Augustine

00:42:34.940 and weird Calvin, all he did was he was grossed out

00:42:38.160 by the fallen angel view he just said it's refuted by its own absurdity that's all he said he makes

00:42:41.920 no argument none whatsoever he it's it's ad hominem or you know but you know what's really

00:42:46.880 weird like in luther this is dumb so i'm not going to address it yeah luther was similar and so was

00:42:51.740 augustine and what was really weird about both of them they both believed that demonic spirits 0.59

00:42:57.220 came in the night and molested women and so they even talked about that that there are many

00:43:03.180 reputable reputable people who believe this i think augustine referred to him as sylvans and

00:43:06.960 fawns that were doing that um what was the first word a sylvan sylvan what is the sylvan so sylvan

00:43:13.860 like a wood nymph or something in the in the woods so transylvania is like across the woods

00:43:18.560 so that's where that word comes from um so a sylvan and a fawn uh those were those were

00:43:24.600 demonic spirits from that from augustine time and then uh luther speaks of like the incubus and the

00:43:29.880 succubus which is the same sort of thing where a a demonic spirit would assault um sexually assault

00:43:37.560 women or men in the middle of the like like lilith would she be an example um perhaps um

00:43:44.020 there's a lot that depends on your view lilith there's a lot of mythology attached to her for

00:43:48.840 sure um but certainly not from scripture in terms of being adam's first wife that's not

00:43:53.900 no way not at all um but it was weird they both accepted that but then the whole fallen angel

00:44:01.240 view that's absurd yeah that is super weird it's like we'll talk about fairies and dryads and you

00:44:06.780 know but um but this thing that seems to be black and white in scripture that's silly because

00:44:11.760 augustine said so right our sponsors private family banking partners is on a mission to help

00:44:18.680 Christians live out the dominion mandate by making a stealth-like move away from the mainstream banks 0.74

00:44:25.640 and into their own privatized banking system. This innovative system is designed to guarantee 1.00

00:44:32.460 uninterrupted compound interest and tax-free growth without exposure to typical stock market

00:44:39.760 risk. To join this growing community that is already building wealth unto future generations

00:44:46.560 and converting post-mill talk into post-mill action,

00:44:51.600 contact Private Family Banking partner Chuck DeLoderonte

00:44:56.320 at his email chuckatprivatefamilybanking.com.

00:45:02.020 That's chuckatprivatefamilybanking.com.

00:45:06.000 Set up an appointment and receive a free copy of Chuck's new book,

00:45:10.800 Protect Your Money Now,

00:45:12.380 how to build multi-generational wealth outside of Wall Street and avoid the coming banking

00:45:19.180 meltdown. Go to the links in the show notes below. Are you a small business owner and desire to defer

00:45:25.560 a larger amount of your business income? Find out how to defer more income taxes, in some cases up

00:45:32.000 to 10 times more than you can with your current 401k plan or other retirement plans. Are you

00:45:38.840 trying to acquire or sell a business, but getting enough cash together for the transaction

00:45:43.860 is the sticking point to closing the deal, then please contact our sponsor, Defined Benefit

00:45:50.500 Partners. They will provide a free analysis of what may be possible for your business or the

00:45:57.160 business that you want to buy or sell. See their contact information in the show notes below.

00:46:03.740 Okay, well, let's go ahead and very last question is, you know, we said,

00:46:07.720 where the watchers still today is we're saying some of them locked up in gloomy dungeons and

00:46:10.960 then some of these fallen angels demons are alive and well uh still to this day and depending on

00:46:15.760 your eschatology you might say that you know that they've dialed back because of the finished work

00:46:20.140 of christ uh but but in either instance we still believe that there is demonic influence uh certainly

00:46:26.160 there's still demonic influence to this day my position is that i think as as the gospel has

00:46:30.780 gone forth that you still have exactly what god was doing in egypt except now we have it globally

00:46:35.660 that God is, he is humiliating all the false gods in the same way that Jesus, you know,

00:46:42.300 through his death and resurrection, that he put the spirits to open shame. 0.93

00:46:47.240 You know, he embarrassed them and still is doing so as the head of the church through his church,

00:46:52.200 his body here on earth.

00:46:54.100 And I think that there are geographic implications for that,

00:46:56.240 that demons actually are cast out and go through arid places

00:46:58.940 and leave geographic regions as they've been Christianized.

00:47:02.600 And I think the West might be, we'll see what God does in his sovereign plan, but the West might be one of the first corporate examples of a place that has been swept clean and put in order by the work of the gospel in arguably 500 to, if you go all the way back to King Alfred, you know, a thousand years of Christendom, you know, the house swept clean and put in order.

00:47:23.160 Certainly there are bugs along with the features, not saying that Christendom has been perfect, 0.79

00:47:27.560 but in many regards, the West has been a Christianized place. 1.00

00:47:31.800 And if we turn from God, much like Israel, not only is the possibility of demonic activity 0.87

00:47:38.040 increasing and being on the rise, as you might currently find in very non-Christianized places 0.98

00:47:43.460 of the world today, but you might actually find a demonic activity of which is seven times worse

00:47:49.560 than the prior, that there was a time where white guys, before the gospel came, were painting their 0.95

00:47:54.380 faces blue and hopping on ships and raping and pillaging people all over the world, that it's 0.51

00:47:59.940 not skin pigment, it's not anything inherent to one ethnicity or one nationality, but it's the 0.84

00:48:04.220 gospel that changes not even just individuals, but cultures and countries, and God has mercifully

00:48:09.720 done this here in a way that he has not done to the same degree recently in history and other

00:48:17.100 places, but it seems like other places are on the rise in terms of obedience towards God and

00:48:22.520 revival and these kinds of things. Zambia has adopted, you know, a distinctly Christian preamble

00:48:28.140 to their constitution. Uganda is passing laws that are distinctly Christian, you know, and the West

00:48:34.400 is still doubling down on our rebellion against Christ. Even as we see the immediate consequences 0.87

00:48:39.760 for our rebellion, things keep getting worse. And so all that being said, whether you're post-mill

00:48:44.680 or pre-mill, even from my perspective with my eschatology, demons are still alive and well,

00:48:50.560 fallen angels. And as the gospel goes forward, I think they're pushed back. But I think just like

00:48:57.100 if you're pre-mill, you're going to say overall, the trajectory is down, but there can be some

00:49:01.040 spikes along the way. And if you're post-mill, you're going to say overall, the trajectory is

00:49:05.020 up, but there can be some big dips. And I think the West is in a pretty big dip right now.

00:49:09.260 And with those dips of Christendom or whatever you want to call it, the success of the Great Commission, which involves not only evangelism but teaching obedience to Christ's commands, as we see dips and rejection of the Christian worldview, I think we not only see bad policies and bad legislation, but we see the rise of demonic activity.

00:49:29.100 So fallen angels alive and well today, regardless of your eschological view, they may be hindered within the post-millennial framework, but they're still there and we shouldn't get cocky.

00:49:40.000 What about the disembodied Nephilim spirits?

00:49:42.380 That's my final question for today's episode.

00:49:45.020 Where are they?

00:49:46.620 Are they in Hades?

00:49:47.900 Why did some guys like Heiser think that they wouldn't go to hell, but that they would actually be floating around in the ether here on earth?

00:49:59.760 And if so, are they still doing that right now?

00:50:02.500 Okay.

00:50:02.980 Yeah, that's a great question.

00:50:04.320 And I was just, I kind of smiled as you were describing the West maybe being demon-free.

00:50:09.600 And I was thinking, you've got probably one guy from a deliverance ministry thinking,

00:50:12.640 yeah, that's right.

00:50:14.220 We did it.

00:50:15.500 We did it.

00:50:15.940 He's going charismatic on us.

00:50:17.100 Right, yeah.

00:50:17.560 He's like, we did that.

00:50:18.640 We locked ourselves for 40 days, fasted in a closet and prayed and named these regional

00:50:23.980 powers.

00:50:24.540 And I'm like, no, I think I would like to give Constantine a little bit more credit

00:50:28.040 than you.

00:50:28.420 but anyways yeah so going back to the sorry about that but the the question that you had asked um

00:50:35.880 the looking up a verse here um let's see um where are the departed spirits now and why did

00:50:46.480 heiser and others think that they were these evil spirits so i think the the logic goes like this

00:50:52.780 If their parentage is angelic and human, they're not fully one or the other.

00:51:03.860 Therefore, when they die, they can't go to heaven and be with the Lord.

00:51:07.600 They can't also go to hell, which that doesn't make any sense to me.

00:51:10.860 I would think that if they repented, if they could, if they repented, they would be with the Lord.

00:51:16.300 If they lived wickedly, which that's all we ever see from them as far as we know,

00:51:20.040 um they would be in hades with the rest of them until that uh day of judgment but um so i never

00:51:28.860 understood that logic behind that um but you do have passages and this is really interesting but

00:51:36.180 the word rephaim is used in the historical books so it's um you see goliath is called the rafa so

00:51:43.200 singular uh rephaim it just means giants uh the rephaim is giants rafa is giant

00:51:48.740 and Og was the last of the Rephaim

00:51:51.700 in that area

00:51:54.020 is what he's called

00:51:55.180 so these

00:51:57.420 I've seen some people

00:51:59.800 translate it healer, is there any

00:52:01.440 merit to that? Translated as what?

00:52:04.000 Healer? Healer?

00:52:05.700 Healer, oh

00:52:06.640 I wonder if that comes from

00:52:09.180 Book of Enoch and from

00:52:11.660 Jubilees where it talks about how

00:52:13.660 the Watchers taught

00:52:15.140 the women like various things

00:52:17.840 having to do with cutting of roots and with makeup and that kind of thing i think yeah i wonder if

00:52:21.680 that comes with the healer probably um anyways but yeah so the word rafa or rafaim is giants

00:52:28.400 but if you look in our lexicons every time it's used in the prophetic books and i i think i'm

00:52:35.280 probably gonna get the wrong chapter but i think ezekiel 29 or maybe it's 32 has several references

00:52:40.960 to that and i think also you have it might be isaiah 14 um it's it's used as a taunt um against

00:52:49.100 the the people who are proud and lifted up so like um the the one who shook the nations is

00:52:54.980 going to be brought down in fact you're going to go down to the grave to shale where the

00:52:59.400 rephaim are and so it's almost like you think you're big stuff here on earth and you think

00:53:04.740 you're you're setting your um your throne above the the stars of god that kind of thing but you're 0.98

00:53:10.320 going to be brought low and by the way you're going to go to the place where remember these

00:53:13.340 guys the Rephaim that's where they are now and so I think you have statements in the in the

00:53:19.500 prophets telling us that the departed spirits of those Nephilim of the giants are actually

00:53:25.720 in in the grave in Sheol in Hades so to speak so I think that's probably right and it's interesting

00:53:33.600 that when you look at the lexicons they have Rephaim under two different entries but it's

00:53:37.860 spelled exactly the same and yet they separate them out they all do it and in the historical

00:53:43.280 books it's referring to the physical giants here on earth and then in the prophets it's referring

00:53:49.580 to the i think it's translated shades in certain uh translations so these these spirits of those

00:53:56.060 giants who are awaiting the wicked people upon death it almost is a way to scare them even more

00:54:03.120 like you're going to be where these guys are wow okay so to summarize that we we're saying that

00:54:09.880 um the disembodied nephilim spirits actually are in hell um just like just like if it was a person

00:54:16.780 who died in rebelling against god apart from saving faith in christ that's what i that's

00:54:21.540 why i lean to remember before i said i was like 65 yeah that's right yeah and then and then so

00:54:26.260 at least leaning towards that view and then in terms of demonic activity these are fallen angels

00:54:31.360 And we're not saying that 200 exactly fell.

00:54:34.700 We're also not saying 70, but perhaps with 70 different regions, dispersions from Babel, that there were 70 heads, but each could have had a plethora of underlings.

00:54:47.240 And so it's entirely possible that 10,000 angels fell from heaven, you know, or a million angels fell from heaven.

00:54:55.180 and there's lucifer and he's got then 70 different you know honchos head honchos his his right hand

00:55:01.380 men so to speak and then they've each got tons of people and then they they sometimes are at war

00:55:07.820 with one another but ultimately they're at war with uh the race of men and that today you know

00:55:13.880 some of them have been locked in gloomy dungeons because of this unholy union but that the vast

00:55:20.120 majority of them are still uh in the earth and that there might be if there are 70 you know head

00:55:25.620 honchos and then lower then there also might be um there might be classifications of you know

00:55:31.460 some demons being greater or stronger than others and yeah and and then at the same time like

00:55:37.920 perhaps even especially you know pre-christ um perhaps even some of the distinctions between

00:55:43.440 various nationalities and cultures comes from these regional princes, fallen angels that

00:55:51.540 are even, you know, perhaps, you know, have, you know, if there is diversity, back to the

00:55:57.680 real early in the episode, if there is diversity among angelic beings, and God seems, it seems as

00:56:03.380 though that's what he's done in heaven, well, then of those who fell, they probably are,

00:56:07.520 weren't all clones of one another. There was probably diversity among fallen angels,

00:56:11.700 diversity of abilities and and inclinations and and and even diversity of knowledge and so the

00:56:19.120 idea that certain of these 70 head honchos that are now delegated over regions that they would

00:56:28.440 teach the people who lived in that region emphasizing certain knowledge and certain

00:56:33.960 skills so that egypt becomes a superpower in this way you know or persia become you know

00:56:39.680 And that way, that all those things seem as though they're true, or at least plausible, and that those fallen angels are still alive today, even if they've been restrained, depending on your eschatology, but still alive to this day, and that it is still entirely possible for not a Christian, but somebody who is in rebellion against God to be oppressed significantly or even possessed by demonic powers today.

00:57:07.380 is yeah i appreciate that you talked about that that diversity of ability again because that's

00:57:12.920 one question that people have all the time about the fallen angel people how come they're not doing

00:57:16.720 it anymore today well it could just be that the ones who were capable of doing that are all locked

00:57:22.120 up they're there and they can't do it anymore or even if there are some that aren't locked up

00:57:27.320 they're like yeah i saw what happened to my buddies i'm not doing that it's not worth it i want to run

00:57:31.640 around as much as i can before it's too late um and so the other ones who are still around maybe

00:57:37.200 are not capable maybe that's what was going on in the medieval period with the sylvans and fawns and

00:57:43.300 the incubus and succubus maybe they're trying to figure it out i don't know there's a so it's a

00:57:50.220 strange this is a weird thing i discovered during my research king james that the king james bible

00:57:55.740 named after wrote about a hundred page book on this topic about how the the evil spirits could

00:58:01.080 have done that and it's really gross that was the that was the worst chapter to write was going

00:58:08.460 through and talking about this whole issue whether or not it was still going on and what i usually

00:58:14.540 say i don't remember if we got into this in the last time in the last episode but um why aren't

00:58:18.560 they doing it today well one maybe they're not capable but two what's the point you know back

00:58:22.520 then you win battles by having the biggest and strongest and so if you can create giants that's

00:58:28.120 going to help right right but today it's more about technological prowess it's uh intelligence

00:58:34.860 strategy i don't care if you got giants we can launch a cruise missile from a thousand miles

00:58:39.400 away and take them out so they're not going to really help in a modern battle that way that's a

00:58:44.200 great explanation and then of course also the messiah has come so that if there was you know

00:58:48.260 the motivation of corrupting the messianic line well too late and then um yeah so i yeah a lot

00:58:55.740 of the motivation and then like you already said also maybe the the fear of well my buddy did that

00:59:00.120 you know um 1500 years ago and he's been in a dungeon ever since so i you know and i'd like to

00:59:06.760 have some free reign so yeah so that yeah all that makes a lot of sense so uh just for the listener

00:59:11.520 what we're gonna do is uh the goal is that this would be a four-part series and so again go back

00:59:17.600 and check out episode one if you haven't watched that already that's where we talk about who the

00:59:21.000 Nephilim are and their origins, where they come from. Today, we really focused on how they

00:59:25.360 returned, and we dispelled the myth of them surviving the flood on rafts or, you know,

00:59:32.460 Og, king of Bashan, hanging on to the ark and Noah's feeding him, you know, to satiate him.

00:59:36.820 So we dispelled that in terms of the survival, but they did, in fact, return. So we talked about 0.98

00:59:42.120 that. And then next episode, Lord willing, that'll be part three, we're going to focus on

00:59:48.100 going from the Nephilim to their descendants and talking about giants and talking about different

00:59:53.000 classifications of giants and those kinds of things. And then the goal is that our final

00:59:58.820 fourth episode would be a catch-all episode. So in the comments, give us your questions and we'll

01:00:03.780 do our best to address some of those questions. For instance, one of them that Dr. Chafee addresses

01:00:09.300 in his book that would be great for the fourth episode is, are demonic spirits oppressing women

01:00:15.880 in a unique way still to this day.

01:00:18.060 I think that's one of your appendices.

01:00:19.720 Is that right, Dr. Chafee?

01:00:21.020 Yeah, about whether or not that's still going on today.

01:00:23.360 It kind of gets into the stuff we were talking about

01:00:25.080 with the incubus and succubus.

01:00:26.580 So we can get into that.

01:00:27.820 So next week is, to make it simple,

01:00:30.240 next week is Giants,

01:00:31.260 and then fourth week is whatever you guys ask us.

01:00:34.020 So thank you so much, Dr. Chafee,

01:00:35.720 for coming on the show again.

01:00:36.840 Really appreciate it.

01:00:38.200 Joel, thanks for having me.

01:00:39.100 It was a lot of fun.

01:00:45.880 We'll be right back.

The NXR Podcast - October 31, 2023

THEOLOGY APPLIED - How Did The Nephilim Survive The Flood？ with Dr. Tim Chaffey

Episode Stats

Summary

Transcript