The NXR Podcast - October 31, 2023


THEOLOGY APPLIED - How Did The Nephilim Survive The Flood？ with Dr. Tim Chaffey

Topics
how did nephilim survive flood Nephilim survival watchers and flood hybrid offspring
Hosted by
Joel Webbon Harrison Smith Antonio Griffith Dale Partridge Wewsley Todd Calvin Robinson
Mentioned
Tim Chafee Augustine Abraham John Calvin Elisha Sethite Healer Enoch Noah Retroactive Sabbath Chuck DeLoderonte Jesus Christ James Bible Clement Peter Jude Ben Elohim Doug Wilson Joseph Boot Brian Sauve and 23 more
DAILY TRUTH - Rejecting “Limited Atonement” Is Denying God’s Justice DAILY TRUTH - No Empathy Warriors, You Are Not More Compassionate Than God

Episode Stats


Length

1 hour and 1 minute

Words per minute

180.35

Word count

11,049

Sentence count

379

Harmful content

Toxicity

16

sentences flagged

Hate speech

58

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

How did the Nephilim survive the flood? How did they return? And why did they survive it? These are the questions that Pastor Joel and Tim Chafee tackle in this episode of Theology Applied. They are joined by Dr. Tim Chaffee, who has written a 500-page book on the subject.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Topics generated with Qwen2.5-3B-Instruct.
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00 In less than a year, our podcast has gone from an average of 10,000 downloads a month to 50,000
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00:00:24 review on your favorite podcast platform thanks how did the nephilim survive the flood right it 0.99
00:00:31 seems like one of the chief purposes in god sending a global flood was to wipe out these
00:00:36 humanoids these demonic offspring hybrid half watcher fallen angel and half daughters of men 0.97
00:00:44 to wipe them off the face of the planet it seems a little bit well careless on god's part to flood 0.97
00:00:51 the whole earth to kill all human beings and all creatures, all animals, but somehow miss 0.97
00:00:57 the Nephilim. But we know that the Nephilim are on the earth after the flood. We see that in the 0.84
00:01:04 book of Numbers. We see that in the conquest of Canaan, the bad report that's brought back by the
00:01:09 12 Hebrew spies. The Nephilim are among them. The giants are there in the land. So how did the 1.00
00:01:16 Nephilim survived the flood, or perhaps the better question is, how did they return if the flood was
00:01:22 successful? These are the questions that we answer in today's episode of Theology Applied
00:01:26 with my special guest, Dr. Tim Chafee, who's written close to about a 500-page book on the
00:01:33 subject. I'm Pastor Joel Webin, and this is Right Response Ministries. Tune in now.
00:01:39 Applying God's Word to every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied.
00:01:46 All right. Welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied. I'm privileged to have once
00:01:53 again, this is part two now, Dr. Tim Chafee joining us today. Thanks, Tim, for coming on
00:01:59 the show. How are you doing? I'm doing great, Joel. Thanks for having me.
00:02:02 Absolutely. So if you're tuning into this and you did not watch part one,
00:02:07 you're welcome to stick with us, but you also can go back and check that out on our YouTube channel
00:02:11 or on any podcast platform, iTunes or Spotify.
00:02:17 But the first part, what we discussed is who are the Nephilim?
00:02:20 Who are the Nephilim?
00:02:21 How does this lead to the giants?
00:02:22 These kinds of things, the fallen angels.
00:02:25 And what we did was we went over the three most popular views,
00:02:29 the Sethite view, the, what do you call it, Tim?
00:02:32 The kingly view?
00:02:34 Yeah, the royalty view or divine king's view.
00:02:36 Got you.
00:02:37 Okay, so the royalty view and then the view that Tim and I hold,
00:02:40 which is the fallen angel view. And so that's what we did. So who are the Nephilim? You know,
00:02:46 how did this come about? And now what we're going to do today is really focus because some of the
00:02:50 questions that we got in the YouTube comments were, okay, well, that's great. That explains
00:02:54 the Nephilim in their origin in the first place. But how, what is, it seems like God failed. If
00:03:00 we're not careful here, he sends a worldwide flood and you guys are asserting, Dr. Chafee
00:03:06 is asserting that one of the primary purposes of this flood is to wipe out the Nephilim,
00:03:12 but then it seems as though somehow they return, because you see in Numbers, you know, with Joshua
00:03:17 and Caleb and the spies sent out from Israel. And so did God fail? Did God, you know, miss them
00:03:24 somehow? So here's the question right out the gate that I want to throw at you, Dr. Chafee.
00:03:28 how did the nephilim survive or return which one how okay uh they didn't survive so we know there
00:03:38 were only eight people who survived the flood uh it's noah his wife their three sons and the three
00:03:43 daughters-in-law uh peter tells us that as well only eight souls survived the flood so there were
00:03:48 no nephilim surviving the flood incidentally the other views especially the set that view
00:03:53 usually need to have a one of the daughters-in-law carrying that genetic code through the flood i
00:04:02 don't hold to that i don't think that's accurate um the the solution is that there was a second
00:04:08 incursion and that's i think you get that in genesis 6 4 so remember moses is writing this
00:04:14 passage and he's living long after the flood and he is writing this at a time where they know there
00:04:20 our Nephilim in the land. That's what we're told in Numbers 13. And so he says the Nephilim were
00:04:26 on the earth in those days, speaking about before the flood, Genesis 6, 4, and also afterward. And
00:04:32 the next word there in our Bible is so key, and very few of them get it right. The Hebrew word is
00:04:38 asher. And if you look in our different Hebrew grammars, like Gesanias' grammar, and I think
00:04:43 Wauke's another one, they both say when this word is used in this way, it refers to an event that
00:04:49 happened in the past and was repeated either at regular or irregular intervals so in other words
00:04:54 it should be whenever not when and so most of our bibles will say the nephilim were on the earth in
00:05:00 those days and also afterward when the sons of god did this activity which makes it very ambiguous
00:05:06 were the nephilim already around when this was taking place and um who are they we don't even
00:05:13 know who the nephilim are then the whole inclusion of them in the passage makes no sense but if the
00:05:19 word is understood as whenever, everything is clarified. The Nephilim were on the earth in
00:05:24 those days before the flood, and also afterward, whenever the sons of God did this. So that tells 0.62
00:05:28 us how the Nephilim got there. They're the result of these illicit unions, and it happened before 0.95
00:05:34 the flood, and it also happened after the flood. Very helpful. So these fallen angels, like I know
00:05:39 the book of Enoch, which I think there are some things that are helpful, but it's not canon. It's
00:05:44 not scripture. So we obviously read the book of Enoch with a grain of salt. But I do think that
00:05:49 Christians are welcome to read, you know, some of the apocrypha books that are not biblical, but,
00:05:54 but, you know, you can look at these things and you see Peter even kind of referencing,
00:05:58 you know, different, different biblical authors that, that kind of reference Enoch. Now the book
00:06:03 of Enoch, if I remember correctly, I think he gets very specific about there being 200 watchers. And
00:06:09 we don't know if that's actually true or not. But my question is these, you know, these fallen
00:06:15 angels and just for the record some people use the term watchers because i think that's what
00:06:19 appears in the book of enoch and whether that's a proper classification for this particular angelic
00:06:24 being or not my understanding is that you know what what's what's being what's trying to be
00:06:30 conveyed in that instance is that there are god facing angels and there are man facing angels and
00:06:34 the man facing angels are not inherently um worldly you know uh and uh carnal um but but
00:06:40 they're actually by god's design that is their purpose and so like the book of hebrews says are
00:06:45 not all angels ministering spirits to serve, you know, to come alongside and minister to
00:06:50 the sons of Abraham who are to inherit eternal life. And so there's this sense of there are
00:06:55 angels like messenger angels, Gabriel, you know, things like that. But then we also know there are
00:07:00 seraphim and the four living creatures, you know, with six wings and the 24 elders that it seems as
00:07:05 though their 24-7 purpose is to be Godward facing around the throne of God, paying him homage day
00:07:12 a night, and so watchers, those angels who were facing man, looking towards man, of this
00:07:19 classification of angels, if you want to use that rhetoric, and I would love to get your
00:07:22 thoughts in just a moment on that, Enoch says that there are 200 of those that it seems
00:07:27 as though they initially fell from heaven, but it is not necessarily that all 200 of
00:07:33 them engaged in this illicit union, forbidden union with the daughters of men all at the
00:07:41 same time, pre-flood, antediluvian, it could be entirely possible that the number is kind of
00:07:47 irrelevant, but let's say, you know, X many amount of angels chose to rebel against God,
00:07:52 and the rebellion all happened at one time. So it's not multiple rebellions, angels falling from
00:07:56 heaven, but of those angels that did fall from heaven, a sub-portion of those pre-flood during 0.76
00:08:02 the days of Noah tried to create and successfully created this hybrid offspring. And then some other 0.85
00:08:10 of these fallen angels uh did it again is is that the way that we would communicate that and what
00:08:16 do you think about the watchers and you know what helped me out with the things i've said thus far
00:08:20 all right i'll see if i can keep all that straight that's a lot of stuff right um so the term watchers
00:08:26 is used in daniel 4 when you have uh nebuchadnezzar's dream about the tree that's cut and
00:08:31 everything uh talks about how watcher came from heaven so you know this is the decree of the
00:08:35 watchers that nebuchadnezzar is going to be humbled um so that term does appear in in daniel
00:08:41 and then it is picked up in the intertestamental literature like enoch i don't i don't think the
00:08:45 book of enoch was written by the antediluvian enoch i think it is a apocryphal uh intertestamental
00:08:52 period book and is like you said not um not scriptural but yeah jude does quote from it and
00:08:58 he alludes to it multiple times uh he clearly expected his audience to know it he uses terminology
00:09:03 like Enoch the seventh from Adam, which comes right from, using that terminology, comes right
00:09:08 from the book of Enoch. He even quotes it, verse 14 and 15 is a direct quote from the book of
00:09:13 Enoch. It changes one word. It changes, I think it changes God to Lord or him to Lord, something
00:09:20 like that, so that it is, by Jude's time, it's specifying that it's about Jesus who's coming
00:09:25 in judgment. So that's kind of an interesting tweak that Jude makes for his own purposes.
00:09:33 So, yeah, there's nothing wrong with using the term watchers. And I think that's helpful the way you described it. There are certain classes of angelic beings. They're not all the same. And I think that when we are with the Lord, I think we're going to be very surprised at the diversity of spiritual beings that are there rather than just the cherub.
00:09:55 You know, the pictures we see of the little chubby kid floating around with Cupid's bow or something like that, or, you know, just the traditional American view of angel.
00:10:03 I think we're going to be shocked that they're quite diverse and have different capabilities, different abilities, different roles.
00:10:10 And you outlined some of those. I think that was helpful.
00:10:11 um so with that um the so you have yeah enoch talks about 200 and names 20 of them that come
00:10:21 together and under a guy under one named samyaza uh who have this pact that we're gonna if we're
00:10:27 really gonna rebel against god if we're really gonna leave you know our proper abode essentially
00:10:33 then you have to swear that you're gonna do this uh with these women and so they make this pact to
00:10:38 do it um again that i think that's all speculative because it's from a non-canonical work but um
00:10:45 whether or not it was the same angels who did it before and after the flood versus
00:10:51 some of them did it uh some of the sons of god did it before the flood they're imprisoned and
00:10:57 then some other ones did it after the flood i think both are possibilities right i lean towards
00:11:01 that that latter view but but you're right both are possibilities but that's been my understanding
00:11:05 is that, you know, lots of angels fell, but not all of these fallen angels took the daughters of
00:11:12 men and saw them as lovely and came into them. And so my thought is that they all rebelled against
00:11:18 God, but some had the audacity to rebel even further, a subgroup of that initial swath of
00:11:24 angels that fell from heaven. And those who actually, you know, engage in these illicit unions,
00:11:30 their offspring, the Nephilim, were wiped out from the flood, and then those fallen angels
00:11:35 themselves, the flood wouldn't wipe them out because, and you correct me if I'm wrong here,
00:11:40 but I think in Genesis, when it starts to talk about the flood, it says everything on earth that
00:11:46 had breath in its lungs. And so the angels themselves, I feel like the Nephilim could not, 0.59
00:11:53 did not, could not survive the flood, but their angelic fallen, angelic fathers could, but it
00:12:00 seems as though their fathers, the solution for that is that, whether it be the Archangel Michael,
00:12:07 that they were locked away in gloomy dungeons. But then that leaves the possibility that even
00:12:13 with that view, that only a portion of these fallen angels, the ones who actually engage in
00:12:18 this illicit union, they're locked away in gloomy dungeons. But the other fallen angels
00:12:22 are not wiped out in the flood because their angelic beings are able to survive the flood.
00:12:27 and and so then they continue on the earth after the flood and then again another sub portion of
00:12:33 them go back to this strategy of this illicit union and create the nephilim again and that
00:12:37 could have even happened not just a second time after the flood but even multiple times is that
00:12:42 plausible yeah i think i think that's plausible i tend to lean a little toward the them being the
00:12:49 same ones rather than different um tell me why yeah certainly um jude and peter both in first
00:12:56 and second peter speak of these spirits who are in prison or spirits who are in chains of darkness
00:13:00 till the great day the great day spirits who sinned in the days of noah um and we know there's a
00:13:05 certain group of of angelic beings who are locked away until the day of judgment by the time peter
00:13:12 and jude write um not all of them because obviously you got the demons running around
00:13:16 if that's who they were if they were fallen angels right i actually do want to get to that
00:13:20 like if you agree with hyzer on the disembodied nephilim spirits but we can we can table that
00:13:25 So certainly not all the angels are held in chains of darkness.
00:13:31 Certain ones who sinned in Noah's day were held.
00:13:34 Now, were they confined there at the time of the flood?
00:13:39 And that's what you just alluded to.
00:13:41 And I think that's certainly a plausible way to read that passage.
00:13:44 I don't think that you could ever prove that wrong.
00:13:46 I tend to think that it happened at the time of the crucifixion, resurrection, that time period.
00:13:52 So in Psalm 82 is where you get the God's pronouncement of judgment on these entities.
00:14:00 So it tells us this is the divine council passes where God takes his stand in the divine council.
00:14:06 He judges among the gods.
00:14:09 And there he talks about how I said you are gods, yet you're going to fall like men, like one of the princes.
00:14:14 or um and or you're going to die like men is what he says and fall like any prince um so
00:14:22 there in psalm 82 they were supposed to be judging justly that's what he tells them in
00:14:29 verses two and three and then then we read what they were doing they were showing favoritism
00:14:33 they were oppressing the poor they were doing all sorts of wicked things and they weren't doing the
00:14:37 job that they were tasked with and then at the very end of the psalm verse eight says arise oh
00:14:43 god and judge the earth for you shall inherit all nations i think that's a reference to this
00:14:49 the judgment and the first word there in that psalm and again i'm not going to say this is a
00:14:55 watertight watertight argument that you can't refute it but the very first word used there in
00:15:00 the septuagint is anastasis it's arise resurrect so it's maybe it's a hint that that is when this
00:15:07 happened so between the crucifixion and resurrection jesus descends to proclaim victory
00:15:14 perhaps whatever that proclamation is that he made maybe it's to proclaim victory maybe at that time
00:15:19 is when they're they're sentenced um or confined so i lean toward that but i'm open to the other
00:15:25 one as well and what's interesting about that psalm is well there's a lot of interesting things
00:15:32 jesus quotes from it in john 10 and that part about you are gods and um but when it says arise
00:15:38 oh god and judge the earth for you shall inherit all nations that goes back to deuteronomy 32 8
00:15:43 where moses is telling the people in his kind of his farewell address to ask your fathers and they
00:15:50 will tell you and he starts talking about the babble event when god separated the nations
00:15:55 according to the a lot of our bible say sons of israel but the textual evidence that we have
00:16:00 before us from the Dead Sea Scrolls, also the Septuagint, it's sons of God, the B'nai Elohim.
00:16:08 So at Babel, he separated the nations according to the number of the sons of God. 0.76
00:16:14 And so there were 70 nations at Babel that split out according to Genesis chapter 10.
00:16:18 So I think rather than 200, I think 70 is probably more likely.
00:16:22 Wow, that's helpful.
00:16:24 And then right after that, it says, but Israel is God's inheritance.
00:16:29 uh jacob his allotted inheritance so at that time at babel god says you don't want me you know i i
00:16:37 gave you a chance to start over after the flood and you still reject me okay now you're going to
00:16:42 be under their control these 70 um rebellious beings so kind of god delegating them and yeah
00:16:49 and the devil kind of being the the top dog but him having his his viceroys or you know that 70
00:16:55 different fallen angels that are actually like princes and principalities like a principality
00:17:00 being like a province in canada or a state in the united states so that's an area geographic area
00:17:05 but the princes are not the actual human kings but the but the the spirits are the fallen angel
00:17:10 that is residing um over that that area like the prince of persia is speaking of a daniel plan yeah
00:17:18 so is that what you're saying yeah i think that's a pretty good way to think about it
00:17:22 And so they were given a certain region to rule over, and instead of leading their people
00:17:27 in justice and righteousness, they lead their people into idolatry and all sorts of wickedness,
00:17:33 and then God judges them. 1.00
00:17:35 So at Deuteronomy 32, it's Israel is your allotted inheritance. 0.87
00:17:41 At Psalm 82, once they're judged, and this is another reason why I think it's at the 0.78
00:17:45 time of the crucifixion, resurrection, Pentecost, that time period, arise, O God, and judge
00:17:49 your earth, for you shall inherit all nations.
00:17:51 that's when the message then goes out to all nations and so it's almost as if god sets up
00:17:56 this little contest that um tells these rebellious beings you keep rebelling against me fine you can
00:18:01 have all the people i'm going to take one guy and and he's not even around yet but i'm going to take
00:18:07 this guy called abraham and i'm going to win all of the stuff i said is going to come to pass is
00:18:11 going to come to pass um and so we can't yeah and when you see the old testament in that light
00:18:18 suddenly it so many passages start to become very very clear that god is not just showing his power
00:18:26 over israel which he does that or over egypt um and the various nations but he's also demonstrating
00:18:33 his authority over the gods of those nations like exodus 12 12 says i will i will execute judgment
00:18:38 on all the gods of egypt well each of the 10 plagues was a direct strike against one of the
00:18:42 gods of egypt so that the israelites would know ra is not more powerful than yahweh and hotep or
00:18:49 all these other ones are not more powerful than yahweh yahweh is the one true god the god of heaven
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00:20:06 in march with that being said though in 10 plagues the gods ploy of egypt and then going
00:20:18 back to that prince and principality and 70 uh total uh sons of god fallen angels did did egypt
00:20:25 Did that particular geographic region, instead of getting one, did they get ten or something like that?
00:20:30 How do we think about that?
00:20:32 Yeah, so that's a good question.
00:20:33 I wonder if there are the chief ones, maybe 70, and then there are underlings, in a sense.
00:20:38 If you think of the Greeks, the Olympian gods, in a sense they're equals, but Zeus is the head.
00:20:47 And then the Canaanites have this very similar thing with El and Baal.
00:20:52 as there so this pantheon of gods but there's still this one chief one who's over them and i
00:20:59 think egypt had something similar to that i think the sumerians had something similar to that and so
00:21:05 a lot of these early cultures seem to have something i think the philistines also with
00:21:09 like dagon i think he was more significant than all the other gods in the pantheon you know like
00:21:14 where and and that's and that's the top dog that that falls over when the ark is brought in you
00:21:19 You know, it's like they find him and he's toppled over.
00:21:21 His hands, you know, are broken off.
00:21:22 Well, the first time he's just fallen over.
00:21:24 Then they come back up.
00:21:25 The second time, the guy's like, let's make sure you get this.
00:21:28 It wasn't just, he wasn't just misplaced.
00:21:30 Let me make the illustration a little bit more on the nose.
00:21:33 Right.
00:21:34 And that's another great example where God's showing his power over the gods of the people.
00:21:39 And the Philistines got it at that point.
00:21:40 They always referred to the ark as the ark of the God of Israel.
00:21:45 And so it helps you understand, once you understand that mindset, it helps you understand why the Israelites kept falling into idolatry. 1.00
00:21:53 We look back at that and think, you guys are so stupid. 0.99
00:21:56 The God that brought you out of Egypt and part of the Red Sea and did all these amazing things, why are you turning to these other gods? 1.00
00:22:03 Well, because they viewed the land as being attached to the deity. 0.82
00:22:09 And so if the Philistines were threatening them or were overpowering them, 0.88
00:22:15 then their God must be more powerful. 0.88
00:22:17 So worship the more powerful God.
00:22:19 It's why when...
00:22:21 Doesn't even, I think Ezekiel talks about like,
00:22:24 perhaps we can beat them on the plains.
00:22:26 Their gods are the gods of the mountains, or I might have it backwards, but...
00:22:29 Not Ezekiel, but that is with, is it Ben-Hadad or the Arameans?
00:22:34 Oh, I think it's in 1st or 2nd Kings.
00:22:37 Yes.
00:22:37 That's right.
00:22:38 Yeah, he uses that example.
00:22:40 It was like, oh, yeah, they're gods, a god of valleys.
00:22:42 If we met them on the plains or vice versa, then no, God's the god of heaven and earth and all things. 0.77
00:22:47 But that was, but what you're saying is that, yeah, so God, Yahweh, the one true triune God, he is God of all. 0.79
00:22:52 But it wasn't stupidity as the way we as moderns would read it in terms of lesser gods falling. 0.60
00:22:58 Like there actually were other gods, lowercase g gods, and they did have geographic jurisdictions. 0.98
00:23:04 So the concept of there being a mountain god or a valley god is, not only is it not stupid, it was probably true.
00:23:14 Yeah, and so you have the passage with Naaman the Syrian, what is that, 2 Kings 5, I think, where this leprous military guy who comes to Elisha to be healed.
00:23:26 And then he gets upset that Elisha just says, oh yeah, go dip in the Jordan sometime. 0.68
00:23:29 And he's like, we've got better rivers where I'm from.
00:23:32 But then he does it, and he's cured.
00:23:34 And he tried to give Elisha clothes and all sorts of stuff, and Elisha didn't take it.
00:23:40 But then he asks for one other thing.
00:23:42 He asks for two mule loads of dirt so that he could bring back.
00:23:46 Why would he do that?
00:23:47 Well, I think it's because he believed that the one true God, Yahweh, the one that cured him, 0.90
00:23:51 could be worshipped if he brings that dirt back to his land, and then he worships on that. 0.92
00:23:57 Yahweh is, like all the other gods, is a jurisdictional God.
00:24:00 And so it's like, he belongs to this land.
00:24:04 And there is, you know, there is something to be said, not as it regards the God of heaven and earth, because he's God of all the land.
00:24:11 It's all his cattle on not just one hill, but a thousand.
00:24:14 But as it pertains to other gods, there is something that seems like to be said, even the instance of, you know, like there's something significant about the land itself,
00:24:25 that when God hands people over to judgment, especially in the Old Testament, other nations, but even Israel itself, he says,
00:24:31 if you live in this land the way that you know that everybody else did right there's two things
00:24:36 god is doing two things simultaneously yes it is about blessing israel fulfilling his good promises
00:24:42 for his people but it's not just blessing israel that they might inherit the land
00:24:47 but it's also in god's justice 400 years of iniquity having been filled up as god spoke
00:24:52 previously to abraham um that god is uh in one instance he is blessing israel and the other he
00:24:58 is justly judging the prior inhabitants of the land for their pagan idolatry, their breaching
00:25:05 of the first table of the law of God in regards to idolatry, but then also their breach of 0.78
00:25:09 the second in regards to the violence in their hands and human sacrifice and theft and all
00:25:15 these different things, and of course, sexual immorality. 0.60
00:25:18 And so all that being said, God essentially then turns to Israel once they've inherited 0.53
00:25:22 the land and says, don't get cocky and think that the land spewed these guys out. And I used you as 0.72
00:25:30 my rod to do it, my instrument to bring judgment. But don't think that what's peculiar is inherent
00:25:37 to you. If you live like them, this land will spew you out. And it makes me think, God doesn't
00:25:46 just say, I'll punish you, but the land will actually turn on you. So one, I think it's
00:25:50 important for us to remember that uh that the earth the creation um the earth the creation's
00:25:56 allegiance is with its creator the land is on god's side right the rocks will cry out you know
00:26:01 if people won't worship the land is on god's side uh it makes me think of chronicles of not even the
00:26:05 trees you know are some of the trees are on her side speaking of the white witch that the creation
00:26:10 itself has allegiances um but but then also it makes me think the land will spew out because
00:26:15 if you dishonor the lord he would abandon and some of these other false gods would come back
00:26:20 There would be a return of these false gods.
00:26:22 And that makes me think of what Jesus even said about spirits.
00:26:26 And this gets into, are they disembodied Nephilim spirits or are they actual watchers, fallen angels?
00:26:30 But this idea of when an evil spirit is cast out, it goes through arid places, waterless places, but it doesn't go to the abode.
00:26:40 Not yet.
00:26:42 It doesn't go to the lake of fire or final judgment, but it goes through, it seems like the earth, waterless places here.
00:26:48 in in this created physical cosmos um but eventually if if the house is swept clean and
00:26:54 put in order but it's not filled and then it'll come back with seven other you know demons
00:26:59 worse than itself and the final state of the man will be far worse than than the former and it
00:27:03 makes me think of not just at an individual level but at a corporate and regional level as it
00:27:08 pertains to nations and cultures is it possible that uh that that uh a land could a people
00:27:16 culturally, corporately could worship Yahweh, but then later on turn in their hearts and
00:27:22 abandon him, and then in a sense, in their embrace of Yahweh, especially in the Old
00:27:27 Testament before some of the binding and things that Jesus did, we referenced earlier with
00:27:31 his death, descent, and resurrection, but pre-Christ, is it possible that a land could
00:27:38 worship Yahweh, thinking of like Nineveh, for instance, but then reject him later and
00:27:44 actually have some of those old territorial fallen angel gods return and perhaps even return
00:27:50 with some of their friends and and i don't know is are those things within the realm of
00:27:56 biblical possibility yeah i think so whether whether they team up or one you know you have
00:28:02 the prince of greece and the prince of persia they're fighting each other so it's not as if 0.94
00:28:06 they're um they're always completely on the same side fighting against yahweh they're they're sinful 0.52
00:28:13 prideful as well and maybe that gets the best of them um like it does for us right and so it could
00:28:21 be that certain ones are conquering you know subjecting other ones and then they are they're
00:28:26 serving them but um yeah i think everything you just talked about with the land being casting
00:28:33 them out or or you know that the even the animals would right against them it talks about um so that
00:28:41 That was one of the, in fact, that's the reason, essentially, why Israel went into exile for 70 years.
00:28:47 Because for 490 years, they didn't give the land its Sabbath rest like they were supposed to do every seven years. 0.53
00:28:53 And Jeremiah 25, 11 said, that's why you're going for 70 years. 0.73
00:28:56 And they had to do all those Sabbaths at once.
00:28:59 Yep. 0.64
00:28:59 Retroactive Sabbath.
00:29:01 The land was going to get its rest.
00:29:03 And Israel used to be a land flowing with milk and honey.
00:29:07 And so it was a very rich land.
00:29:11 But by the time of Jesus, it's very arid and dry and not as prosperous as it once was.
00:29:17 And I think that has a lot to do with the way that the Israelites did not follow God's commands fully.
00:29:26 And that was the result. 0.81
00:29:29 Right. And by the time Jesus comes on the scene, I mean, he comes to, you know,
00:29:33 Israel has, you know, multiple periods of stiff-necked rebellion against God.
00:29:39 But it seems as though Jesus comes to a particularly rebellious generation,
00:29:44 that he came to his own, they received him not.
00:29:47 And so by the time Jesus arrives on the scene, one of the things,
00:29:50 and this gets to the question that we kind of set up earlier,
00:29:54 but one of the things that I find interesting is Jesus comes to Israel
00:29:58 and it seems like part of the lion's share of his ministry
00:30:01 is going around casting demons out left and right. 0.91
00:30:05 Israel is just filled with demons. 0.97
00:30:07 It seems like just filled to the brim with demons, and I don't think that's a coincidence. 0.99
00:30:10 I think it's because by the time you get to that particular generation, there's been so much hard-heartedness and rebellion, not to mention 400 years leading up to it.
00:30:20 The skies were as bronze.
00:30:22 The word of the Lord was very rare in those days, from Malachi to the time of Christ, John the Baptist as a forerunner.
00:30:29 And so you've got very little special revelation from the Lord, not that he's being stingy.
00:30:35 stingy. He already has provided through the scrolls and through prior prophets everything
00:30:39 that Israel would need. He's provided sufficient special revelation. Of course, you also have
00:30:44 natural revelation. But there's no new word of the Lord. For 400 years, Israel is becoming
00:30:50 darkened in their heart more and more and more. Jesus comes on the scene, and Israel as a nation
00:30:57 and that particular land seems to be infested with demonic spirits. Coincidence? I think not.
00:31:04 So what are these demonic spirits?
00:31:05 What do you think about that?
00:31:08 Yeah, so the two primary views are, one, they're just fallen angels.
00:31:11 I think that's kind of the default view for most Christians.
00:31:16 We hear Jesus talk about the devil and his angels, and then you have these evil spirits or demons that are being cast out.
00:31:22 And so we just make that connection, and we think that that's who they are.
00:31:26 um the the other view and one that's popular among those who hold the fallen angel view is that the
00:31:33 the evil spirits that are being cast out are are the disembodied spirits of nephilim who were killed
00:31:39 in the flood and or the following years as israelites are taking the land um and nephilim
00:31:47 are there and killed and so that might be hinted at at the passage you alluded to when jesus talks
00:31:53 about how when a demon is cast out it goes about in arid places right why arid places it's just
00:31:59 it's just wilderness is that is that or is he making a better point that a stronger point that
00:32:03 they don't like water because it reminds them of the flood and so sometimes people who hold that
00:32:08 view will use that passage as as a evidence for that position i've got a chapter that kind of
00:32:14 explores the four primary arguments used for that position that the evil spirits are the departed
00:32:20 spirits of the Nephilim. I'm open to it. I probably lean about 65-70% to the more traditional
00:32:29 understanding that the evil spirits are just rebellious angels and not necessarily the
00:32:34 departed spirits. But I could see either one being accurate.
00:32:40 Okay. And then, whether it be disembodied spirits of the Nephilim or fallen angels themselves,
00:32:46 in either case it seems like um that they they are desperate for a host so i i i think of you know
00:32:55 when uh jesus encounters a particular demoniac and you know he says who you know son of son of
00:33:03 god you know son of man have you come to judge us before the appointed time um and you know and
00:33:08 then pleads with Jesus not to send him into just a bodiless, existent, arid places, but into the 0.89
00:33:18 pigs. And Jesus grants the request. What do you think is going on there? To me, that seems, 0.56
00:33:26 in some sense, to back up the, you know, be another example, just like arid places, 0.56
00:33:30 waterless places, thinking flood, Nephilim died in the flood. This likewise seems to be like
00:33:36 nephilim if it is disembodied nephilim spirits that they that they desperately want to not be
00:33:42 disembodied and to be bodied and they prefer you know a human being created in the image of god
00:33:47 closer to their original existence um but if not they'll take a pig over nothing yeah i i that i
00:33:54 think that's plausible but i i the reason i for a couple reasons i think it's not maybe the best
00:33:59 argument is one they immediately run down into the water all right um so if they don't like water
00:34:04 Why would they direct the pigs to run right down in the water?
00:34:07 I think maybe what's going on there is they're trying to make Jesus' ministry more difficult.
00:34:14 Not that Jesus wouldn't have known this, but if suddenly a farmer in the area loses 2,000 pigs,
00:34:19 he's losing his livelihood, and he's going to be very upset and tell his neighbors,
00:34:24 this guy came over here and ruined my farm.
00:34:26 He's a troublemaker. 0.87
00:34:27 Gotcha. 1.00
00:34:28 Now, he's living in the Decapolis, so that's more of a Greek area. 0.98
00:34:32 So I don't think this guy was a Jewish farmer who was not allowed to have pigs like that. 0.93
00:34:36 So it's probably more of a Greek, but, um, yeah, so maybe that's, what's going on there 0.99
00:34:41 is the demons are trying to be clever that, Hey, don't just cast us out. 0.84
00:34:44 Let's go into this, into these things.
00:34:47 And then their ulterior motive is let's destroy this guy's livelihood.
00:34:51 So then it, so then Jesus gets kicked out of the town, which it seems like they were
00:34:54 successful in that, that, that's, that actually makes a lot of sense.
00:34:57 okay um so here's kind of a question that i i'd love to get to towards the end of the episode
00:35:04 is um where so my understanding you know i have more of a an older view of in terms of a descent
00:35:13 so you know like our church is fairly liturgical and uh we we recite the apostles creed uh in our
00:35:19 lord's day worship gatherings um however you know uh catholic is a it's a fine word but but just
00:35:24 because people are unused to that.
00:35:26 We say invisible and universal church.
00:35:28 And then the only other tweak that we have is Hades,
00:35:31 which some older ones actually say Hades instead of hell
00:35:36 in regards to the descent.
00:35:37 So my understanding is that Jesus descended in the Spirit
00:35:41 to the realm of the dead, into the belly of the earth.
00:35:44 And in that place, he's not going to hell per se,
00:35:47 but he's going to Hades, the realm of the dead,
00:35:49 and that he's in the Spirit on the side of Abraham's bosom,
00:35:53 the side of paradise, and he is announcing victory to his own and then ransoms them.
00:36:01 And now the way has been paved by his death and atonement, so it ransoms them to heaven.
00:36:07 But he also is kind of, per his parable, the rich man and Lazarus, the beggar, proclaiming
00:36:12 across that chasm to the damned in a place of torment and even a third, arguably a third
00:36:19 section of the realm of the dead, where there are not just people who are damned, but they're
00:36:27 actually spirits, angels, that some of those watchers have been locked in gloomy dungeons.
00:36:32 And he's, you know, in a sanctified, divine way, you know, proclaiming a sermon, you know,
00:36:37 titled Nanny Nanny Boo Boo. And so that's, you know, that's kind of like, that's been my
00:36:41 understanding of the descent. And then he, you know, he breaks captives free, you know, and
00:36:46 ransoms Abraham and all Old Testament saints now coming with him and brings them into their
00:36:53 heavenly abode with God. And that now, as it currently sits in this gospel age,
00:36:59 post the incarnation of Christ and his life, death, resurrection, and ascension, 0.93
00:37:04 that we still do, we do not yet have the lake of fire, but we still do have the damned
00:37:08 in the, in Hades, in a place of torment, Abraham's bosom has been emptied, perhaps maybe some
00:37:17 excavating, you know, renovation, making more room for, you know, for future, you know, dammed
00:37:21 over these last 2,000 years. And then watchers, those watchers that were imprisoned are still
00:37:26 imprisoned. But the other watchers, my question would be, where are they today? Where are these
00:37:34 other fallen angels today, if Jesus has, because it does seem as though, you know, and now for me,
00:37:39 I'm post-millennial, we've talked about, so I think that the strong man, right, you can't plunder
00:37:43 the house unless you first go in and bind the strong man. So I take that to mean that Satan
00:37:47 is bound. That doesn't mean that he doesn't still prowl around, that he has no influence whatsoever,
00:37:52 but that his leash has been shortened, and to such a degree that if nothing else, he's no longer
00:37:58 able to corporately wholesale deceive the nations to the extent that he previously was able to do. 0.71
00:38:04 And so we see swaths of Gentiles coming to faith in Jesus Christ in this gospel age. 0.82
00:38:09 And so with that, that particularly pertains to Satan. 0.71
00:38:12 But if he does have these, you know, these sous chefs or, you know, or viceroys that he's appointed, you know, all over in regional places, it seems like there has been some binding of them as well.
00:38:24 Are they now in Hades joining those other watchers or are they still at large today?
00:38:30 What do you think about fallen angels today in the year of our Lord, 2023?
00:38:35 Where are they?
00:38:36 Yeah.
00:38:37 So coming from a more of a premillennial perspective, I would look at the binding of Satan and has been a future thing prior to the millennium starting.
00:38:48 But I don't think that you and I have to disagree on some of the other things that we're talking about here.
00:38:55 So I think there are still angels at large, if you will.
00:38:58 You know, so when Satan is called the God of this world or he goes around like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour, I do think he's active.
00:39:04 I do think that his ministers are active, which I know you're not saying that he's inactive.
00:39:09 I know that. I don't mean to mischaracterize your view.
00:39:13 So I do think they're still active and trying to deceive. 0.99
00:39:16 And I just think that the the the gospel is the power of God and salvation to those who believe for those who believe first to the Jew, then the Gentile. 0.95
00:39:24 And with the Holy Spirit-empowered message going out throughout the world, I think you're seeing people come to faith even in the midst of spiritual darkness and spiritual oppression from these fallen angels.
00:39:43 So where are they?
00:39:45 Your answer would be that here.
00:39:47 Some are still active.
00:39:48 And let me confirm the other things you were saying, though, as far as the view of Hades and, you know, Abraham's bosom being emptied.
00:39:55 I think that all seems pretty reasonable, pretty, I don't want to say straightforward, because there's not a lot about it in Scripture.
00:40:03 But it seems to be what Scripture is teaching there.
00:40:06 And, yes, you have Hades.
00:40:10 And it was interesting that you said that you changed that word in the creed.
00:40:13 I just spoke at a church on Sunday morning that did the exact same thing.
00:40:16 Rather than descending into hell, it's descending into Hades.
00:40:18 they read that but um the certain ones first peter 3 18 through 20 talks about how
00:40:26 there were spirits who let me just read it so i don't misstate it here for christ also suffered
00:40:32 once for sins the just for the unjust that he might bring us to god being put to death in the
00:40:36 flesh but made alive by the spirit by whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison
00:40:41 who were formerly disobedient who i'm sorry who formerly were disobedient when once the divine
00:40:46 long-suffering waited in the days of noah while the ark was being prepared so during noah's day
00:40:50 these spirits were disobedient now they're held in chains and so that would be a reference to
00:40:56 these specific um fallen angels that are or but not all of them like we talked about earlier yep
00:41:04 absolutely um and so it's interesting when you when you look at how people who hold the sethite
00:41:09 view take that passage they have to do all sorts of strange hermeneutical gymnastics to make that
00:41:15 about Jesus preaching through Noah to the sinful people of his day.
00:41:19 And that's not what it says.
00:41:21 Right.
00:41:22 I remember I held that view once upon a time.
00:41:25 And I remember getting to that text in Peter and preaching it that way.
00:41:31 And it was tough.
00:41:32 I definitely struggled with it.
00:41:34 I can't remember.
00:41:36 I know it was Augustine's view, right?
00:41:38 It was Augustine's view, the Sethite view.
00:41:41 Oh, yeah.
00:41:41 Yeah.
00:41:42 Augustine's Sethite view, yeah.
00:41:43 Right.
00:41:43 And then Clement of Alexander, do you remember what his view was?
00:41:47 Clement is a fallen angel guy.
00:41:49 That's right.
00:41:49 Okay.
00:41:50 Yep.
00:41:51 But pretty much everybody was a fallen angel guy, it seems, or at least the vast majority
00:41:54 up until about, what, 400, 500 AD?
00:41:57 Yeah, there was a guy in the third century who promoted more of the royalty view within
00:42:03 the church.
00:42:04 That came in among rabbis around 90 AD, the royalty view.
00:42:10 and then the Sethite view came on
00:42:12 sometime in the 300s
00:42:14 and then once Augustine adopted that
00:42:16 it kind of became the
00:42:18 the view of the church
00:42:20 he is Augustine after all
00:42:21 so it does make a little bit of sense
00:42:23 and then Augustine straight line from him all the way to
00:42:26 one of those exceedingly rare L's
00:42:28 from John Calvin, my boy John Calvin
00:42:30 who I, he usually puts up W's
00:42:32 but in this case Calvin goes with
00:42:34 Augustine
00:42:34 and weird Calvin, all he did was he was grossed out
00:42:38 by the fallen angel view he just said it's refuted by its own absurdity that's all he said he makes
00:42:41 no argument none whatsoever he it's it's ad hominem or you know but you know what's really
00:42:46 weird like in luther this is dumb so i'm not going to address it yeah luther was similar and so was
00:42:51 augustine and what was really weird about both of them they both believed that demonic spirits 0.59
00:42:57 came in the night and molested women and so they even talked about that that there are many
00:43:03 reputable reputable people who believe this i think augustine referred to him as sylvans and
00:43:06 fawns that were doing that um what was the first word a sylvan sylvan what is the sylvan so sylvan
00:43:13 like a wood nymph or something in the in the woods so transylvania is like across the woods
00:43:18 so that's where that word comes from um so a sylvan and a fawn uh those were those were
00:43:24 demonic spirits from that from augustine time and then uh luther speaks of like the incubus and the
00:43:29 succubus which is the same sort of thing where a a demonic spirit would assault um sexually assault
00:43:37 women or men in the middle of the like like lilith would she be an example um perhaps um
00:43:44 there's a lot that depends on your view lilith there's a lot of mythology attached to her for
00:43:48 sure um but certainly not from scripture in terms of being adam's first wife that's not
00:43:53 no way not at all um but it was weird they both accepted that but then the whole fallen angel
00:44:01 view that's absurd yeah that is super weird it's like we'll talk about fairies and dryads and you
00:44:06 know but um but this thing that seems to be black and white in scripture that's silly because
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00:46:03 Okay, well, let's go ahead and very last question is, you know, we said,
00:46:07 where the watchers still today is we're saying some of them locked up in gloomy dungeons and
00:46:10 then some of these fallen angels demons are alive and well uh still to this day and depending on
00:46:15 your eschatology you might say that you know that they've dialed back because of the finished work
00:46:20 of christ uh but but in either instance we still believe that there is demonic influence uh certainly
00:46:26 there's still demonic influence to this day my position is that i think as as the gospel has
00:46:30 gone forth that you still have exactly what god was doing in egypt except now we have it globally
00:46:35 that God is, he is humiliating all the false gods in the same way that Jesus, you know,
00:46:42 through his death and resurrection, that he put the spirits to open shame. 0.93
00:46:47 You know, he embarrassed them and still is doing so as the head of the church through his church,
00:46:52 his body here on earth.
00:46:54 And I think that there are geographic implications for that,
00:46:56 that demons actually are cast out and go through arid places
00:46:58 and leave geographic regions as they've been Christianized.
00:47:02 And I think the West might be, we'll see what God does in his sovereign plan, but the West might be one of the first corporate examples of a place that has been swept clean and put in order by the work of the gospel in arguably 500 to, if you go all the way back to King Alfred, you know, a thousand years of Christendom, you know, the house swept clean and put in order.
00:47:23 Certainly there are bugs along with the features, not saying that Christendom has been perfect, 0.79
00:47:27 but in many regards, the West has been a Christianized place. 1.00
00:47:31 And if we turn from God, much like Israel, not only is the possibility of demonic activity 0.87
00:47:38 increasing and being on the rise, as you might currently find in very non-Christianized places 0.98
00:47:43 of the world today, but you might actually find a demonic activity of which is seven times worse
00:47:49 than the prior, that there was a time where white guys, before the gospel came, were painting their 0.95
00:47:54 faces blue and hopping on ships and raping and pillaging people all over the world, that it's 0.51
00:47:59 not skin pigment, it's not anything inherent to one ethnicity or one nationality, but it's the 0.84
00:48:04 gospel that changes not even just individuals, but cultures and countries, and God has mercifully
00:48:09 done this here in a way that he has not done to the same degree recently in history and other
00:48:17 places, but it seems like other places are on the rise in terms of obedience towards God and
00:48:22 revival and these kinds of things. Zambia has adopted, you know, a distinctly Christian preamble
00:48:28 to their constitution. Uganda is passing laws that are distinctly Christian, you know, and the West
00:48:34 is still doubling down on our rebellion against Christ. Even as we see the immediate consequences 0.87
00:48:39 for our rebellion, things keep getting worse. And so all that being said, whether you're post-mill
00:48:44 or pre-mill, even from my perspective with my eschatology, demons are still alive and well,
00:48:50 fallen angels. And as the gospel goes forward, I think they're pushed back. But I think just like
00:48:57 if you're pre-mill, you're going to say overall, the trajectory is down, but there can be some
00:49:01 spikes along the way. And if you're post-mill, you're going to say overall, the trajectory is
00:49:05 up, but there can be some big dips. And I think the West is in a pretty big dip right now.
00:49:09 And with those dips of Christendom or whatever you want to call it, the success of the Great Commission, which involves not only evangelism but teaching obedience to Christ's commands, as we see dips and rejection of the Christian worldview, I think we not only see bad policies and bad legislation, but we see the rise of demonic activity.
00:49:29 So fallen angels alive and well today, regardless of your eschological view, they may be hindered within the post-millennial framework, but they're still there and we shouldn't get cocky.
00:49:40 What about the disembodied Nephilim spirits?
00:49:42 That's my final question for today's episode.
00:49:45 Where are they?
00:49:46 Are they in Hades?
00:49:47 Why did some guys like Heiser think that they wouldn't go to hell, but that they would actually be floating around in the ether here on earth?
00:49:59 And if so, are they still doing that right now?
00:50:02 Okay.
00:50:02 Yeah, that's a great question.
00:50:04 And I was just, I kind of smiled as you were describing the West maybe being demon-free.
00:50:09 And I was thinking, you've got probably one guy from a deliverance ministry thinking,
00:50:12 yeah, that's right.
00:50:14 We did it.
00:50:15 We did it.
00:50:15 He's going charismatic on us.
00:50:17 Right, yeah.
00:50:17 He's like, we did that.
00:50:18 We locked ourselves for 40 days, fasted in a closet and prayed and named these regional
00:50:23 powers.
00:50:24 And I'm like, no, I think I would like to give Constantine a little bit more credit
00:50:28 than you.
00:50:28 but anyways yeah so going back to the sorry about that but the the question that you had asked um
00:50:35 the looking up a verse here um let's see um where are the departed spirits now and why did
00:50:46 heiser and others think that they were these evil spirits so i think the the logic goes like this
00:50:52 If their parentage is angelic and human, they're not fully one or the other.
00:51:03 Therefore, when they die, they can't go to heaven and be with the Lord.
00:51:07 They can't also go to hell, which that doesn't make any sense to me.
00:51:10 I would think that if they repented, if they could, if they repented, they would be with the Lord.
00:51:16 If they lived wickedly, which that's all we ever see from them as far as we know,
00:51:20 um they would be in hades with the rest of them until that uh day of judgment but um so i never
00:51:28 understood that logic behind that um but you do have passages and this is really interesting but
00:51:36 the word rephaim is used in the historical books so it's um you see goliath is called the rafa so
00:51:43 singular uh rephaim it just means giants uh the rephaim is giants rafa is giant
00:51:48 and Og was the last of the Rephaim
00:51:51 in that area
00:51:54 is what he's called
00:51:55 so these
00:51:57 I've seen some people
00:51:59 translate it healer, is there any
00:52:01 merit to that? Translated as what?
00:52:04 Healer? Healer?
00:52:05 Healer, oh
00:52:06 I wonder if that comes from
00:52:09 Book of Enoch and from
00:52:11 Jubilees where it talks about how
00:52:13 the Watchers taught
00:52:15 the women like various things
00:52:17 having to do with cutting of roots and with makeup and that kind of thing i think yeah i wonder if
00:52:21 that comes with the healer probably um anyways but yeah so the word rafa or rafaim is giants
00:52:28 but if you look in our lexicons every time it's used in the prophetic books and i i think i'm
00:52:35 probably gonna get the wrong chapter but i think ezekiel 29 or maybe it's 32 has several references
00:52:40 to that and i think also you have it might be isaiah 14 um it's it's used as a taunt um against
00:52:49 the the people who are proud and lifted up so like um the the one who shook the nations is
00:52:54 going to be brought down in fact you're going to go down to the grave to shale where the
00:52:59 rephaim are and so it's almost like you think you're big stuff here on earth and you think
00:53:04 you're you're setting your um your throne above the the stars of god that kind of thing but you're 0.98
00:53:10 going to be brought low and by the way you're going to go to the place where remember these
00:53:13 guys the Rephaim that's where they are now and so I think you have statements in the in the
00:53:19 prophets telling us that the departed spirits of those Nephilim of the giants are actually
00:53:25 in in the grave in Sheol in Hades so to speak so I think that's probably right and it's interesting
00:53:33 that when you look at the lexicons they have Rephaim under two different entries but it's
00:53:37 spelled exactly the same and yet they separate them out they all do it and in the historical
00:53:43 books it's referring to the physical giants here on earth and then in the prophets it's referring
00:53:49 to the i think it's translated shades in certain uh translations so these these spirits of those
00:53:56 giants who are awaiting the wicked people upon death it almost is a way to scare them even more
00:54:03 like you're going to be where these guys are wow okay so to summarize that we we're saying that
00:54:09 um the disembodied nephilim spirits actually are in hell um just like just like if it was a person
00:54:16 who died in rebelling against god apart from saving faith in christ that's what i that's
00:54:21 why i lean to remember before i said i was like 65 yeah that's right yeah and then and then so
00:54:26 at least leaning towards that view and then in terms of demonic activity these are fallen angels
00:54:31 And we're not saying that 200 exactly fell.
00:54:34 We're also not saying 70, but perhaps with 70 different regions, dispersions from Babel, that there were 70 heads, but each could have had a plethora of underlings.
00:54:47 And so it's entirely possible that 10,000 angels fell from heaven, you know, or a million angels fell from heaven.
00:54:55 and there's lucifer and he's got then 70 different you know honchos head honchos his his right hand
00:55:01 men so to speak and then they've each got tons of people and then they they sometimes are at war
00:55:07 with one another but ultimately they're at war with uh the race of men and that today you know
00:55:13 some of them have been locked in gloomy dungeons because of this unholy union but that the vast
00:55:20 majority of them are still uh in the earth and that there might be if there are 70 you know head
00:55:25 honchos and then lower then there also might be um there might be classifications of you know
00:55:31 some demons being greater or stronger than others and yeah and and then at the same time like
00:55:37 perhaps even especially you know pre-christ um perhaps even some of the distinctions between
00:55:43 various nationalities and cultures comes from these regional princes, fallen angels that
00:55:51 are even, you know, perhaps, you know, have, you know, if there is diversity, back to the
00:55:57 real early in the episode, if there is diversity among angelic beings, and God seems, it seems as
00:56:03 though that's what he's done in heaven, well, then of those who fell, they probably are,
00:56:07 weren't all clones of one another. There was probably diversity among fallen angels,
00:56:11 diversity of abilities and and inclinations and and and even diversity of knowledge and so the
00:56:19 idea that certain of these 70 head honchos that are now delegated over regions that they would
00:56:28 teach the people who lived in that region emphasizing certain knowledge and certain
00:56:33 skills so that egypt becomes a superpower in this way you know or persia become you know
00:56:39 And that way, that all those things seem as though they're true, or at least plausible, and that those fallen angels are still alive today, even if they've been restrained, depending on your eschatology, but still alive to this day, and that it is still entirely possible for not a Christian, but somebody who is in rebellion against God to be oppressed significantly or even possessed by demonic powers today.
00:57:07 is yeah i appreciate that you talked about that that diversity of ability again because that's
00:57:12 one question that people have all the time about the fallen angel people how come they're not doing
00:57:16 it anymore today well it could just be that the ones who were capable of doing that are all locked
00:57:22 up they're there and they can't do it anymore or even if there are some that aren't locked up
00:57:27 they're like yeah i saw what happened to my buddies i'm not doing that it's not worth it i want to run
00:57:31 around as much as i can before it's too late um and so the other ones who are still around maybe
00:57:37 are not capable maybe that's what was going on in the medieval period with the sylvans and fawns and
00:57:43 the incubus and succubus maybe they're trying to figure it out i don't know there's a so it's a
00:57:50 strange this is a weird thing i discovered during my research king james that the king james bible
00:57:55 named after wrote about a hundred page book on this topic about how the the evil spirits could
00:58:01 have done that and it's really gross that was the that was the worst chapter to write was going
00:58:08 through and talking about this whole issue whether or not it was still going on and what i usually
00:58:14 say i don't remember if we got into this in the last time in the last episode but um why aren't
00:58:18 they doing it today well one maybe they're not capable but two what's the point you know back
00:58:22 then you win battles by having the biggest and strongest and so if you can create giants that's
00:58:28 going to help right right but today it's more about technological prowess it's uh intelligence
00:58:34 strategy i don't care if you got giants we can launch a cruise missile from a thousand miles
00:58:39 away and take them out so they're not going to really help in a modern battle that way that's a
00:58:44 great explanation and then of course also the messiah has come so that if there was you know
00:58:48 the motivation of corrupting the messianic line well too late and then um yeah so i yeah a lot
00:58:55 of the motivation and then like you already said also maybe the the fear of well my buddy did that
00:59:00 you know um 1500 years ago and he's been in a dungeon ever since so i you know and i'd like to
00:59:06 have some free reign so yeah so that yeah all that makes a lot of sense so uh just for the listener
00:59:11 what we're gonna do is uh the goal is that this would be a four-part series and so again go back
00:59:17 and check out episode one if you haven't watched that already that's where we talk about who the
00:59:21 Nephilim are and their origins, where they come from. Today, we really focused on how they
00:59:25 returned, and we dispelled the myth of them surviving the flood on rafts or, you know,
00:59:32 Og, king of Bashan, hanging on to the ark and Noah's feeding him, you know, to satiate him.
00:59:36 So we dispelled that in terms of the survival, but they did, in fact, return. So we talked about 0.98
00:59:42 that. And then next episode, Lord willing, that'll be part three, we're going to focus on
00:59:48 going from the Nephilim to their descendants and talking about giants and talking about different
00:59:53 classifications of giants and those kinds of things. And then the goal is that our final
00:59:58 fourth episode would be a catch-all episode. So in the comments, give us your questions and we'll
01:00:03 do our best to address some of those questions. For instance, one of them that Dr. Chafee addresses
01:00:09 in his book that would be great for the fourth episode is, are demonic spirits oppressing women
01:00:15 in a unique way still to this day.
01:00:18 I think that's one of your appendices.
01:00:19 Is that right, Dr. Chafee?
01:00:21 Yeah, about whether or not that's still going on today.
01:00:23 It kind of gets into the stuff we were talking about
01:00:25 with the incubus and succubus.
01:00:26 So we can get into that.
01:00:27 So next week is, to make it simple,
01:00:30 next week is Giants,
01:00:31 and then fourth week is whatever you guys ask us.
01:00:34 So thank you so much, Dr. Chafee,
01:00:35 for coming on the show again.
01:00:36 Really appreciate it.
01:00:38 Joel, thanks for having me.
01:00:39 It was a lot of fun.
01:00:45 We'll be right back.