The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - How “Soft Men” Cause Destruction

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, real quick, before we get started, I have a small request.

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00:00:18.060 Hi, this is Pastor Joel Webin with Right Response Ministries.

00:00:20.580 You're listening to another episode of Theology Applied.

00:00:23.700 In this episode, I was pleased to have as a special guest,

00:00:26.600 Eric Kahn from The Hard Man Podcast.

00:00:29.320 If you've ever listened to the Hard Man Podcast, you know that Eric Kahn, he is the man.

00:00:33.540 He does a great job.

00:00:34.520 He's kind of in the vein of Michael Foster with It's Good to Be a Man.

00:00:38.080 He's also teamed up with guys in Moscow like Doug Wilson, Jeff Durbin.

00:00:41.580 So he's right there in kind of the same tribe, same vein that our ministry, Right Response,

00:00:46.520 would be a part of.

00:00:47.200 And what we talk about in this particular episode is the danger of soft men.

00:00:52.160 We talk about how soft men actually lead towards the death of more lives when soft men are

00:00:57.040 in leadership than hard men.

00:00:59.020 We talk about what does it mean biblically to be a hard man.

00:01:01.480 We talk about men in soft clothing from Matthew chapter 11, verses 7 through 12.

00:01:07.480 Men in soft clothing, you can find them in the palaces of kings.

00:01:11.160 But what did you go out into the wilderness to see?

00:01:13.300 You went to see an actual masculine man, John the Baptist.

00:01:16.760 He's eating locusts. He's wearing camel skin. 1.00

00:01:19.420 You went to go and see a man. 1.00

00:01:21.160 So we talk about grit. We talk about gravitas.

00:01:23.920 We talk about how effeminacy is a sin. 0.97

00:01:27.320 You may not be a homosexual, you may not be a sodomite, which would be the biblical term, 0.64

00:01:32.420 but when you walk like a woman, you talk like a woman, but you're actually a man by God's design, 0.90

00:01:37.600 that in itself is a sin, even if you never commit the sin, the action of homosexuality.

00:01:42.920 Effeminacy is a sin. 0.88

00:01:44.560 So we talk about all these things in this episode of Theology Applied.

00:01:48.400 You're in for a treat.

00:01:49.940 Tune in now.

00:01:51.260 Applying God's word to every aspect of life.

00:01:53.840 This is Theology Applied.

00:01:57.320 All right, welcome to another episode of Theology Applied.

00:02:02.240 I'm your host, Pastor Joel Webman with Right Response Ministries.

00:02:04.760 Today, I am privileged to have as a special guest, Eric Kahn from Hard Man Podcast.

00:02:10.120 I want to say the Hard Man Podcast, but I don't know if he's so presumptuous to say it's the top one or the only one.

00:02:16.440 It's just one of the Hard Man Podcasts out there. Is that correct?

00:02:20.820 No, it is the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. It's that kind of the.

00:02:25.700 Yes, that's right. This is the hard man. Michael Foster, eat your heart out. This is the hard man podcast. All right. Well, tell us a little bit about your podcast, about your ministry. Who is Eric Kahn?

00:02:37.100 Yeah, absolutely. So, I did go to the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. I've since become a Presbyterian. And somewhere along the way, I started this podcast. So, the tagline is Recovering Biblical Masculinity in a World of Softness.

00:02:54.540 One of the things that happened when I left seminary, I went and pastored in a rural context.

00:03:01.720 And one of the things I noticed, right, all the people in my church, they're coal miners, they're oil field workers, really salt of the earth people, farmers, ranchers, etc.

00:03:11.540 And we saw a lot of in the community, we saw a lot of seminary guys from multiple denominations come through town.

00:03:17.580 And the overwhelming thing that I saw was, wow, there is just a juxtaposition between the salt of the earth people and then sort of these like white collar effeminate guys who are coming out of the seminary.

00:03:31.460 So one day I write a blog post and I'm like, you know what, I think that there's something about the seminary in particularly Southern.

00:03:40.540 It was very Ivy League. You had a lot of soft guys coming out of that context.

00:03:45.100 I wasn't really thinking deeply on masculinity at the time. I write this post, put it up on my

00:03:52.600 blog at the time. You know, it's like my mom, my grandma, and like a few other people are reading

00:03:56.460 my blog back in the day. Like I was, I was past the day when blogs were even cool, you know,

00:04:01.660 and people were onto podcasts. I wasn't doing that yet. I did totally. So that post goes out

00:04:08.240 And within the first month of it coming out, I think it had 250,000 page views.

00:04:13.820 Wow.

00:04:14.400 And it was really at that point, I started reaching out to people, getting to know some

00:04:18.160 of the people who, you know, are in this space now pretty prominently, Michael Foster, Toby

00:04:23.180 Sumter, I heard him speak on a number of issues related to masculinity that really got me

00:04:27.520 thinking along these lines and really came to like a Matthew 11 understanding of there's

00:04:32.660 actually something to be said in scripture about Malikos, a feminacy.

00:04:37.300 And so I really just started with the book, unpacking it, looking at the text of scripture, looking at what the historical church has said about this, finding out, well, there's actually a lot.

00:04:48.140 And then comparing that really to the church today, I found very quickly that if you talked about Malikos, you talked about effeminacy in the church, people, it was like hitting a beehive.

00:05:00.400 You know, people were like really irate about this issue.

00:05:04.820 Let's talk about that for a second. 1.00

00:05:06.020 malikos all right so uh you can go to bed like a woman being a man go to bed like a woman that 1.00

00:05:13.300 would be a sodomite um but you can go to bed like a man as a man but get out of bed like a woman 0.99

00:05:21.140 all right you walk like a woman you talk like a woman you behave like a woman even though you're 0.99

00:05:27.000 still sexually in terms of who you're sleeping with at night you sleep with a woman as a man 0.98

00:05:34.180 So you're straight, but effeminate, right? Malikos. I think a lot of people, as long as that guy doesn't go to bed with another man, he can be as effeminate as he wants to be. So talk about that a little bit. 0.97

00:05:47.020 Yeah, absolutely. So really what I started to see is that most interpreters, modern interpreters, wanted to view this word, you know, 1 Corinthians chapter 6.

00:05:55.060 They wanted to view this word as only the passive partner in a homosexual relationship.

00:06:00.540 When you start to look at the word and that's, you know, especially Matthew 11, that's not how the word is being used.

00:06:05.340 In fact, as you're mentioning, it's really about mannerisms, how you carry yourself, how you speak.

00:06:10.560 one of the things that was interesting side by side as I was studying this you know studying

00:06:16.880 the Greek studying the terminology history of interpretation I was also looking at what the

00:06:21.980 LGBT community was doing I happened to actually have a lot of friends who were you know acquaintances

00:06:27.840 works and stuff like that who we could have a conversation about these things at the time

00:06:31.020 and they would say you know one guy I asked he said I have a lisp and I said is that natural

00:06:36.260 And he said, no, it's to make other people, you know, feel uncomfortable. And as I started researching it, even like LGBT professors were like, in the transgender movement, especially, they were teaching people how to act more gay, how to act the opposite sex. 0.74

00:06:54.780 So even they were picking up on this theme that, you know, malikos, effeminacy is a whole list of mannerisms and behaviors. 0.65

00:07:04.980 And for a long time, I had taken this for granted, right?

00:07:06.760 I just thought that, you know, maybe they are just stereotypes.

00:07:10.700 That's really what we've been taught.

00:07:12.640 Things like men being naturally prone to like being protective and being providers.

00:07:17.580 Maybe these are just cultural stereotypes.

00:07:19.980 Again, you start looking at the text of scripture and it's very clear.

00:07:22.720 genesis 2 15 this is actually wrapped up in the dna and the fabric and the nature of who men are

00:07:28.200 and so it it really is this mannerisms issue and what i noticed too like in the church was 0.88

00:07:35.520 a lot of the people that get a pass were very much malicos they are very much effeminate but

00:07:41.120 if we've reduced our definition just to the the sex act then none of those categories are are 0.66

00:07:46.480 sinful in that view and that to me became problematic yeah that makes a lot of sense

00:07:52.140 it's grooming uh people forget that there's a progression to sin you know and there's

00:07:58.140 progression for individuals there's progression of sin for societies that's what romans one is

00:08:02.180 all about that you know people are born you know people are born spiritually blind um right but

00:08:08.160 but not entirely um that's the very reason why they're judged by god is you oh man are without

00:08:13.660 an excuse because um because god has clearly displayed these things right his his eternal

00:08:20.660 nature his divine power eternal power and divine nature has been clearly put on display so that

00:08:27.180 you are without an excuse so people are born um i would say they're blind um to basically natural

00:08:34.420 revelation is sufficient for one thing to condemn right we need special revelation for salvation

00:08:39.220 but natural revelation is sufficient to condemn it shows us something so people aren't completely

00:08:44.400 ignorant, but they progress in ignorance because of rebellion. It's not that people are ignorant

00:08:51.520 of God and therefore they choose to rebel unknowingly, but people are rebellious towards

00:08:55.920 God. And in their rebellion, they lie and suppress the truth and deeds of unrighteousness, which gives

00:09:01.140 birth to a further and further ignorance. And that ultimately displays itself. It manifests in first

00:09:07.800 impurity. And I think of in terms of societies, I think of America impurity. Okay. Easy divorce.

00:09:14.400 OK, pornography. And then impurity moves to shameful acts and, you know, homosexuality. 0.99

00:09:21.060 And then it moves to debased mind where people become inventors of evil. 0.96

00:09:26.380 Drag queen story hour. That sounds that sounds like one that would have shocked even the Apostle Paul. 0.96

00:09:31.340 But the final step is surprisingly society's general approval of those who practice those things.

00:09:38.940 And so that's that's where we are. And sadly, the church is not an exception.

00:09:42.940 The church in general has approved of many of these things.

00:09:48.180 And there's some things that are just so biblically clear.

00:09:50.180 The church, at least some of the church that has remained at least somewhat faithful, said, OK, well, we can't approve of full blown homosexual sexuality. 0.75

00:09:58.940 But they've they've approved of as much as they can, like right up to the door. 0.95

00:10:03.820 So they approve of effeminacy. 0.72

00:10:07.180 I think it's Michael Foster says, if you want to know how to be a man, read a magazine written to women. 0.92

00:10:12.940 and just model that right be assertive you know take take dominion um you know all those kind of

00:10:18.700 things so we the church sadly the church loves masculinity whenever it sees it in women and the

00:10:24.540 church hates masculinity whenever it sees it in men and uh and and we would say that that's that's

00:10:31.100 not permissible we would say that that in itself even if it never um goes into full fruition of 0.56

00:10:37.580 homosexual, shameful acts, we say even that in itself is inherently against the word of God is 0.86

00:10:43.220 sin. Would you agree? Yeah, absolutely. And it's interesting, Joel, because I think what you've 1.00

00:10:49.340 seen in the last couple of years, really, a lot of people brought this up, but it's an apocalypse.

00:10:54.580 It's an unveiling. A lot of people's hands are being played. And what you see in Christendom

00:10:59.100 is really the mainstreaming of anti-masculinity. So I decided to torture myself. I got a

00:11:07.560 copy of Christian Kobes Dumez book, Jesus and John Wayne. I started reading this book and it was

00:11:13.040 like, it's just so obvious how hated biblical sexuality is. But I think what's surprising is,

00:11:20.760 you know, 10, 15 years ago, that wasn't quite in the mainstream. But now, like when you listen to

00:11:25.800 the rise and fall of Mars Hill Church, she's one of the prominent speakers in I think episode four

00:11:31.320 and then some of the ones following. So, I think it's the mainstreaming of that. What's been really

00:11:36.320 interesting though um tied to like the ukraine situation all the like egalitarian leftist 0.76

00:11:42.920 feminist christian people who work at christianity today um you know the bethmore types and russ

00:11:48.280 more and all that all that sort of stuff it's fascinating because you you have the zelinski 0.51

00:11:53.280 of ukraine and they're like praising him like what a man you know he's acting courageously

00:11:58.140 so it's funny because they they know exactly what masculinity is that's right you know um

00:12:03.500 the Latin for virtue, uh, courage, man, like you can't say man without saying courage. 0.92

00:12:09.960 Um, we, we know this and they're, they're actually not dumb enough to not know that.

00:12:14.040 Um, but yeah, it's this just onslaught, this attack on masculinity again, 10 years ago, 0.84

00:12:18.980 I think it was more subtle. Um, as certainly feminism was rampant in the culture then too,

00:12:24.660 but I think now it's just all holds barred. Uh, nobody's hiding anything. All the cards are on

00:12:29.920 the table. No, I completely agree. It's funny. Masculinity and Christian nationalism, right?

00:12:34.660 So Russell Moore loves masculinity and he loves Christian nationalism so long as it's on the 0.63

00:12:40.840 other side of the world, right? If you're in Ukraine, be a Christian nationalist, man. Let's 0.70

00:12:45.180 hunker down. Let's secure these borders, right? But if you do it here, then all of a sudden it's

00:12:51.740 wrong, which really just goes to show that Christian nationalism, it's a boogeyman that 0.88

00:12:56.060 needs to be debunked but it is beyond that it's christian nationalism isn't actually what they

00:13:00.340 hate what they hate is um they hate america right it's america last that's that's the commitment

00:13:05.540 because they're totally fine with another nation um improving itself another nation securing its

00:13:10.800 borders another nation standing up to someone who's invading all those kinds of things they're

00:13:14.820 completely fine with that um they just they just don't think that america should do it um so it's

00:13:20.880 it's America has to be. Yeah. Go ahead. And I think, you know, you asked a question like,

00:13:25.440 at least I do. I say, well, why America? Why hate America so much? Why can I be Ukrainian,

00:13:29.580 but not, not American? I think, look, they're, they're very smart. They know,

00:13:34.300 um, that America is built on, you know, this Western Christendom, um, you, you, you, without 0.97

00:13:41.460 the reformation and Puritanism and all those things coming to this country, you don't have

00:13:45.040 a country the way it is now. Um, they know that they have to erode those foundations. 0.88

00:13:49.100 I think really what we're seeing, you know, somebody like Michael Fallon has pointed to this a number of times, but just accelerating the contradictions in our culture, tear down the foundations, patriarchy built America. And that's why even now, even though we're experiencing judgment, we're an apostate nation, all these things, even now, there's still leftover blessings from covenant faithfulness from years behind us.

00:14:14.120 Yeah. And they know that. And so, yeah, we have to attack sexuality. The irony I always point to

00:14:20.000 as well as like, we're encouraging the men to be effeminate and wear like super tight skinny jeans

00:14:26.060 and, you know, just even the mannerisms, the 11th commandment, the niceness, something that you've

00:14:31.900 talked about, the empathy, all of those things. It's all effeminate mannerisms. Well, we teach

00:14:36.980 the men to do that, but then what are we telling the women, right? Who are all the people who are 1.00

00:14:41.620 going through these transgender surgeries predominantly it's women who are being

00:14:45.280 encouraged to do this so masculinity is toxic and yet we're telling all the women you need to become

00:14:50.660 a man yeah it literally just makes no sense and i think the reality is what the fundamental 0.85

00:14:56.280 understanding that you have to have is look they want chaos yes you know this is about creating

00:15:02.840 chaos disorder that's right and god's instrument for order in creation you can what paul says to

00:15:08.680 Titus, the instrument for creating order is wise fathers. Right. So if you want to tear down

00:15:15.560 creation, the best thing you go after the dads, you go after fatherhood. Yeah. Yeah. And that's

00:15:20.780 what has happened. I mean, anybody who, any young man who is trying to be a man, usually very 0.97

00:15:27.700 quickly is taken aside and reprimanded by people in the church and said, don't do that. Don't be

00:15:35.860 like that. That's not like Christ. And it's rough. So let's actually look at that text that

00:15:42.520 you referenced, Matthew chapter 11, verse seven, verse seven through 12. I believe that's what

00:15:49.600 you're referencing is Matthew 11, seven through 12, soft men, right? And palaces. You want to

00:15:55.360 read that for us? Or you want me to read it? I've got it right here if you want me to do.

00:15:59.300 Yeah, absolutely. I can read it starting in verse seven. Yeah. As they went away,

00:16:03.380 Jesus began to speak to the crowds concerning John. What did you go out into the wilderness

00:16:08.000 to see? A reed shaken by the wind? What then did you go out to see? A man dressed in soft

00:16:13.980 clothing. Behold, those who wear soft clothing are in king's houses. What then did you go out

00:16:20.920 to see? A prophet? Yes, I tell you, and more than a prophet. This is he of whom it is written,

00:16:26.320 Behold, I send my messenger before your face, who will prepare your way before you. Truly,

00:16:31.640 i say to you among those born of women there has arisen no one greater than john the baptist

00:16:35.680 yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he and i think verse 12 is helpful

00:16:42.620 too from from the days of john the baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence

00:16:47.940 and the violence take it by force um john the baptist these are at camel skin yeah he was

00:16:54.700 boys crying out in the wilderness john the baptist was masculine he was a man and uh

00:17:00.520 And Jesus is saying, you didn't come out into the wilderness to see a pansy.

00:17:03.860 You didn't come out here to see somebody dressed in soft clothing.

00:17:06.780 You didn't come out to see this effeminate man, those people.

00:17:12.640 And I think I'm curious to hear your thoughts.

00:17:14.340 I think that it's I think that Jesus being intentional, he says, if you want to see them, you can find them in the palaces of kings.

00:17:22.980 I think of politicians.

00:17:24.460 I think of rulers and kings.

00:17:26.960 He's like, if you want to find soft men, go look at the civil magistrate. Go, go, go over there. Go look in his palace. Go look in the White House. Go look. You find soft men. Usually, not always. We've had some good men. George Washington, praise God for him. You know, we've had some good ones, but you find a lot of soft men more often than not in positions of power and palaces. What do you think about that?

00:17:52.160 Yeah, you're absolutely right. And I think it fits the context as well. You look at Jesus' ministry. Some of his harshest words really are for two groups of people, right? It's for the apostate Israel, the religious leaders of the day, who are what? They were in bed with the Roman Empire and people who are acting in wicked manner, right? Later in the gospel, you're going to hear them say, you know, we have no king but Caesar, right?

00:18:18.340 So it's this, it's, it's really the same. I think just a, you know, history doesn't just repeat it rhymes. And so one of the issues is you see much of the same thing happening today, right? You have politicians acting very beast-like, and then you've also got the apostate church. We literally have the mainstream Big Eva church is, I would say many of them are apostate. They've literally said, you know, the, the words of Paul aren't the words of Jesus.

00:18:45.340 yeah right and and we're setting scripture against itself so just flat out contradicting

00:18:51.660 uh scripture sola scriptura um straight up attack on scripture right and the authority of it

00:18:58.760 so i think when you look at that it makes sense jesus is going after them um in in matthew's

00:19:05.160 gospel and in this passage as well you know you can look at the same thing too what's happening

00:19:10.080 with our leaders today. Why is it, you know, Russ Moore in like 2007, he was talking about

00:19:16.400 the goodness of like patriarchy. Well, what happened? You know, what happened? I was at

00:19:21.760 Southern Seminary and he was there. And at the time, honestly, there was not a shred of,

00:19:25.780 wow, Russ is going soft or he's going woke or any of that stuff happening. But I think what

00:19:30.640 happens is these guys realize where the power and the money and the fame is. They realize where the

00:19:35.020 culture was going. And over time, what you see is, look, they're not leaders. They're fundamentally

00:19:42.020 playing the wind. They're opportunists. They're playing the waves. That's exactly right. We've

00:19:46.880 called them grifters for a very specific reason. And it's interesting too, the other thing to point

00:19:52.980 out in the passage from verse 12, people love to get around, how do I get around the word violence

00:19:59.920 in this verse. Part of masculinity is not, not only just like a spiritual violence and a holy

00:20:07.580 zeal. I'm not saying, I think that's there as well, but there's a time for men to be violent.

00:20:12.220 There's a time when you do need a sword and you need, you need to defend and you'll do that in

00:20:16.140 righteous fashion. It's just interesting because this is not Jesus meek and mild in the passage.

00:20:22.820 it's jesus portraying a vision of masculinity in john that is you might call it today hyper

00:20:31.160 masculine they probably call it toxic masculinity and and that's what we're told to be yeah yeah

00:20:37.360 and we're told that they're the ones who inherit the kingdom of god so so not just that we should

00:20:42.180 be that because it's commendable but if we're not that then we should be we should be concerned

00:20:46.980 I think of, I can't remember exactly.

00:20:50.400 I think it's the interpreter's house in John Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress where, you know, there's seven different visions that the interpreter shows to Christian, the main protagonist.

00:21:01.560 And one of them, I believe, is a man who's dressed for battle and he's storming a palace, like a kingdom.

00:21:09.080 And he's trying to get in and it's heavily guarded by all these different armed men.

00:21:13.080 And he's wielding his sword and whipping it back and forth and thrusting and doing everything he can to get up the steps and into this kingdom.

00:21:22.980 And that, Bunyan says, is this vision, you know, of the text that we just read, Matthew chapter 11, verse 12, that the violent take it by force.

00:21:33.880 that there is no, no one passively waltzes into the kingdom of God. It's through much trial and

00:21:41.080 tribulation, which requires perseverance. It requires endurance. And certainly God sovereignly

00:21:47.280 sustains his people. So those who persevere have been preserved. We recognize that the God is the,

00:21:54.040 you know, he's the, the active Asian who is, who is ordaining and causing all these things to come 0.99

00:22:00.640 about. But, but, but the question is who, but what is he doing it through? So God ordains

00:22:05.580 something, right? He, he, God ordains the predestinated ends, but, but he also predate

00:22:12.960 ordains the predestinated means by which it comes about. And one of those means is masculinity.

00:22:20.240 That is one of those means. And, and Pilgrim's Progress, the second book that's not nearly as

00:22:25.820 famous, but that really takes it from the individual Christian and focuses on the church

00:22:30.440 and this corporate, um, picture of, of inheriting the kingdom and journeying together as a community. 0.97

00:22:36.160 And that's what we see people like feeble-minded, you know, and, and, uh, these weaker characters 0.58

00:22:41.320 and it's, it's the strong, um, ones in the company, the masculine ones, um, who, who 1.00

00:22:48.740 get them through. So, so it's not just that, that if we're soft men, we hurt ourselves.

00:22:53.580 If we're soft men, we hurt others.

00:22:56.560 And a lot of times the others don't want us to be hard men.

00:23:01.600 But since when do we give people what they want?

00:23:04.020 The last time I checked, we give people what they need, which just coincidentally happens to be not always what they want, but what God wants.

00:23:12.720 And so, you know, and hopefully in our discipleship, as people mature, I feel like you could define spiritual maturity like this.

00:23:19.580 When your wants begin to align with your needs.

00:23:22.200 That's, that's one way I would define spiritual maturity when I start to want what I need, right? So I want ice cream when I'm three and I need green beans, right? And, and hopefully when I'm an adult, I actually want those green beans and, and not just need them to where I can have self-discipline and do it on my own without somebody having to do an airplane spoon in front of my face to get me to open my mouth.

00:23:43.080 Right. So that's, that's part of maturity is, is we, we, we, uh, we are cultivating desire through discipline, cultivating new desires through discipline at first, um, uh, that are shaped around what we actually need and not just what we innately want. And, and the world needs masculine men and the church needs masculine men. Any thoughts on that? Do you agree with that?

00:24:07.080 Yeah, absolutely. I think that's huge. We definitely need it. I think even in the places where men are not present, you know, fatherhood being one of them, you see the just catastrophic effects. But it also reminds me something in this journey of masculinity, looking at scripture, one of the things that I began to see, because a lot of people would say this to me, they would say, look, sexuality is not a gospel issue.

00:24:33.340 Sexuality is not a central issue that we should be focusing on.

00:24:36.380 If a guy wants to be masculine or not, it doesn't really matter.

00:24:40.120 Obviously, the passages that we've looked at have helped, I think, clarify for me why that's not the case.

00:24:46.920 But one of the things that I also started to see was, you know, through Michael Foster and other people,

00:24:51.980 when you look at the creational purpose in Genesis, Christ redeems us so that we can fulfill and be restored to that purpose.

00:25:00.300 and that's where we find so much of what men are for as well right if you're going to be a protector

00:25:04.780 you're going to be a provider you're going to fulfill the dominion mandate you're going to take

00:25:09.540 a wife you're going to be fruitful and multiply in order to do these things like it takes hard

00:25:14.480 masculinity and the irony is i think you know as people argue with me about this you can read

00:25:21.460 anything like pre-1960 and people just took that for granted i think that's why a lot of times even

00:25:26.960 it wasn't talked about. Even the concept of like hard men, you know, there's military books by that

00:25:32.800 title, Handful of Hard Men. It was very common to speak of men that way. You got to harden up son,

00:25:38.820 you know, life's tough. Build some calluses on your hand. Thinking even the physical realities

00:25:44.080 of what happens to your body, right? You lift weights, what happens to your muscles? Well,

00:25:47.740 they stop being soft and squishy and they become hard and now they're useful for bearing the weight

00:25:52.420 responsibility. So really seeing that actually this, this is related to the gospel. This really

00:25:59.560 is a part of man's identity and women as well, that your sexuality is, is central to your

00:26:06.360 sanctification. Like we can't even talk about sanctification apart from sanctification according

00:26:12.420 to your, that's right, your sex. That's right. Yeah, no, that's huge too, because I think 0.98

00:26:17.580 sometimes people that, you know, they think of the fruit of the spirit. So that part of this gets

00:26:20.700 into our theology proper and doctrine of God, but they think of the fruit of the spirit and

00:26:24.600 they like to chop it up. Um, you know, so they think of the fruit of the spirit is like nine

00:26:28.820 different tools in a toolbox and you pull out one for this particular task and you put that tool

00:26:33.600 back and then you pull out another for a different task, you know, um, whereas, you know, we, we would

00:26:38.040 say that the fruit of the spirit, it's, it's more like, instead of, if we say literal fruit, an apple

00:26:42.800 and a banana and an orange and a pineapple, we would say, no, it's more like nine characteristics

00:26:47.040 of just an apple right that it's crispy it's tart it's also sweet it's you know so nine different

00:26:53.940 characteristics because and the reason why is because we're talking about the fruit of the

00:26:56.820 spirit which simply means displays manifestations uh visible observable observable witnessable

00:27:04.200 displays of the holy spirit and and the reason why we can't chop up the fruit of the spirit is

00:27:08.980 because we can't chop up the spirit because the spirit is god he is a simple being in philosophical

00:27:13.660 terms. And as both the Westminster and the 1689 Confessions say, God is the most pure spirit

00:27:19.180 without body parts or passions. And so if you have the Holy Spirit, you have the whole Holy Spirit,

00:27:25.620 not part of the Holy Spirit, which means Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, and also as the Son of

00:27:30.500 God, divine second member of the Trinity himself. My point is to say there was never a single moment

00:27:35.640 in his earthly life that he was not embodying all of the fruit of the Spirit in fullness of measure

00:27:41.700 at all times. So when Jesus is throwing over the money changers in the temple and he's

00:27:47.320 fashioning the whip out of cords, he is modeling for us gentleness, perfect gentleness. And so I

00:27:54.120 think we've, we've severed the spirit and we've severed the fruit of the spirit and we've severed

00:27:58.800 Jesus and all these different things. And so as that pertains to your point, because a lot of

00:28:02.460 people don't get this, you're absolutely right. If we're discipling a woman and we're discipling 0.99

00:28:07.860 to men, a man, there is a difference. And how do we know that there's a difference? Ephesians 5, 0.56

00:28:13.020 husbands do this, wives do this. And it's not the same thing. It's two different things. And if we

00:28:18.420 want to be, you know, really controversial, Ephesians 6, right? They're talking to a slave

00:28:22.500 and a master. Slaves do this. Masters do this. Also children, right? The whole thing is about 0.98

00:28:28.340 authority and different stations of life. You know, first Corinthians, Paul talks about, you

00:28:32.760 know, remain in whatever station of life. And there is room, Paul says, to avail yourself if

00:28:37.160 you can gain your freedom. So there's nothing wrong with improving your station in life in

00:28:40.520 terms of vocation and position and title and those kinds of things. But by and large, we're

00:28:46.400 all under the sovereignty of God in various positions of life. And what it looks like for

00:28:50.580 the fullness of the fruit of the spirit to be at work in our lives in that station is going to be

00:28:56.520 distinct versus somebody else in a different station. And one station that doesn't ever

00:29:01.140 fluctuate, that's not fluid, that doesn't move is our gender. It looks different for a man 0.69

00:29:06.560 to be displaying the spirit and therefore the fruit of the spirit than for a woman. 0.86

00:29:11.920 So men and women are both called to gentleness, but gentleness in men and women looks different. 0.58

00:29:17.980 Would you agree with that?

00:29:18.740 Absolutely. And you see that again in the household codes, in multiple New Testament books, right?

00:29:24.880 It's always broken down into men, women, children usually are in there as well.

00:29:29.900 But what I think is so interesting about it as well is that, you know, people always ask me,

00:29:34.860 And it's weird because it's like the gay Reverend Helens who will say this on Twitter, but they were like, you're just chasing the current fad of patriarchy.

00:29:41.900 And I'm like, okay, first of all, I don't know where that's actually a fad, but-

00:29:46.660 Is that a current fad? Praise God if it is.

00:29:49.140 That would be good news.

00:29:50.180 I guess. They see it as a big threat.

00:29:52.900 It's making a comeback. All right. Just like Christian nationalism, man, that's a huge threat.

00:29:57.060 Yes. Amen for that one too. 1.00

00:29:59.360 But it's really interesting to me because as you start to look at these issues and you break down these household codes, I always tell people, like, I didn't land on this position or really just overall the gendered piety position.

00:30:14.440 You know, we talk about things that are so, you know, unpopular culturally.

00:30:19.340 You know, women should be serving in their households and raising children. 0.97

00:30:22.680 And this is part of their sanctification. 1.00

00:30:24.720 Yes, even their salvation.

00:30:26.340 And so, you know, not in the workplace.

00:30:29.180 things like this. People say, well, you're just doing that because of, you know, it's popular or

00:30:33.580 you read some old book. And really, it's always driving people back. My fundamental conviction

00:30:39.720 was, look, this is what the scripture teaches. It's actually inconvenient for me. And I found

00:30:44.240 this, you can identify with this, I'm sure. I found this pastorally. These are pastorally

00:30:48.580 inconvenient texts for me to have to preach. But as I'm preaching them, we believe in Sola

00:30:55.280 scriptura. And so we're sitting there and we're going, but this is what it says. I mean, Paul's

00:31:00.400 not making, you know, in first Timothy two, he's not making a cultural argument. He's making a

00:31:05.620 creational argument. And it's like one of the most plain things you'll ever read and exposit

00:31:10.340 as a preacher. So being faced with that, I think that's where I was really started to become

00:31:15.580 grounded in a biblical sexuality was this is what scripture teaches. I know it's hated in the

00:31:22.340 culture but this is what it says and it's timeless yeah you're right it's not it's not unique to that

00:31:26.920 place in that time it's not a cultural argument it's a creation he's drawing from the the created

00:31:32.060 order and in first corinthians 11 is another example people like to say well this is what

00:31:37.680 was going on in corinth you know temple prostitution those kinds of things um but but

00:31:42.380 one paul says if anyone wants to be contentious about these things verse 16 first corinthians 11

00:31:48.240 16, uh, we have no such practice in all the churches. So, and, and the practice not being

00:31:53.940 head covering, but the practice being, being contentious, argumentative about it, wanting to

00:31:58.260 disobey apostolic commands. And so Paul right there says, this isn't unique to Corinth, this

00:32:03.020 position of a woman covering her head and worship. This is in all the churches. So it's not just 0.53

00:32:08.360 because something unique is happening in Corinth, like temple prostitution. Um, and then when he

00:32:12.980 talks about it, he, you know, he talks about again, woman being made from man and for man,

00:32:17.760 And woman is the glory of man. And man is the glory of God. And this kind of language, it's about design. It's about creation. It's not a momentary concept. It is a timeless command that we've received from God that's built into the fabric of the way that he created the world.

00:32:36.820 And I feel like for no other reason, I would I would adhere to, you know, I would call myself patriarchal because we live in the father's world.

00:32:44.660 God has revealed himself to us as a father and he has sent to us also his son and is he not it, not she, but he, the Holy Spirit.

00:32:53.600 So we live in the father's world. The father has set up his world to function by a certain set of fatherly rules.

00:32:59.320 and and he rules and reigns in his world through fathers in fathers in the home fathers in the

00:33:06.160 church we call them elders and to a lesser degree deacons and fathers in the state in the state and

00:33:11.320 the civil magistrate bears the sword as god's avenger and i would say that the sword belongs

00:33:15.760 to men and i would look at even deuteronomy and things like that a woman not dressing like a man

00:33:19.840 and not wearing his armor his garbs his weaponry and those kind of things so that if the civil

00:33:24.580 magistrate bears the sword then i would say the civil magistrate by and large should be men i

00:33:29.000 I understand there might be some administrative positions and things like that.

00:33:31.740 So the point is, in all these three primary spheres that God instituted, home, church, and state,

00:33:38.120 he has appointed fathers to be the conduit of his benevolence and his blessing and provision and protection and all these things.

00:33:46.080 So the father's world, the father's rules, and he reigns and blesses through the continent of earthly fathers in all three of these spheres.

00:33:54.760 And I don't know what word to use for that other than patriarchy.

00:33:59.000 You know, I just. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah. I think especially. Yeah. When you examine the text, you look at Ephesians, especially Chris Wiley is really good about pointing this out. You know, even Potter, you know, the P-A-T-E-R, you know, and just all these words like you can't even say family without saying father.

00:34:18.580 And it's all embedded in God's creation. And I think really, we come to the point, this is actually Russ Moore's point that he made in a chapel years ago. This is like pre-2008, probably. And I thought it was amazing. He was talking about Romans 9, but it applies here as well.

00:34:37.280 and he said, listen, you know, Paul's response, he talks about in Romans 9, then also election

00:34:44.680 in Ephesians 1. Paul's response is to praise God for predestination and election. So what we have

00:34:52.240 to bring ourselves to is hierarchy and patriarchy is God's design. And what we should do is not like

00:34:59.660 begrudge it and not say, oh, that's his design. I wish it was different. We should actually be

00:35:04.160 praising God for this. This is good. When you look at creation specifically, you know, the Lord made

00:35:11.140 them male and female. And then overall, this God says, this is good. This is very good. Right. And

00:35:17.760 so that I think that's the other part of this is that it's not just that we should be on the

00:35:22.360 defense. And this is where I would encourage people to is like, I don't apologize for what

00:35:27.620 scripture says, right? That's the beginning point for so much heresy and error in the church is

00:35:34.320 feeling apologetic to the culture, you know, sort of the Tim Keller model of like, well,

00:35:39.460 let's follow, you know, Stephen Colbert's example of like, let's talk to the culture in terms that

00:35:44.340 they can handle. Well, you know, the reality is that sinful man cannot handle the truth of

00:35:49.600 scripture apart from the spirit of God. And so, we're going to, what are we going to do then?

00:35:53.760 are we going to hide behind our fig leaves no we're going to boldly proclaim it and we're going

00:35:58.700 to trust god and we're going to pray for the spirit we're going to ask god to transform these

00:36:02.860 people's hearts and may they repent because but it's not going to be because i was just gonna say

00:36:07.740 because we love god but also because we love them because ultimately what timothy keller's asking us

00:36:11.560 to do is to hate people not not just to hate god which is first and foremost to hate god disobey

00:36:16.360 god that's right but to hate people because if we only give man what he can handle it goes back to

00:36:20.640 that whole idea of trying to align what we want with what we actually need, which is a sign of

00:36:26.820 maturity and namely spiritual maturity. But the pagan doesn't have spiritual maturity. The pagan 0.80

00:36:32.660 does not desire what he actually means, right? Romans 8, the mind of the sinful man is not

00:36:38.880 indifferent. It's not neutral. It's hostile. It is at enmity, at war with God and his law. And so

00:36:46.040 So the mind of the sinful man does not desire, does not want, and therefore cannot handle the truth.

00:36:54.700 And so if we give them only what they can handle, then what we have to ultimately reserve from them is the very thing that they need, the thing that would save them.

00:37:03.260 And so we're not loving them.

00:37:05.820 We're hating them. 1.00

00:37:06.800 We are damning them to hell. 1.00

00:37:10.140 And we're not doing it for them. 0.93

00:37:11.840 I think we just need to quit pretending because you're right.

00:37:13.840 It's like, how did these guys who seemed solid, how did they go off the deep end?

00:37:18.360 How did they drift?

00:37:19.600 You know, and the answer is it's the fear of man.

00:37:22.680 You know, they love the, you know, the glory that Jesus said to the Pharisees.

00:37:26.860 They love the glory that comes from man more than the glory that comes from God.

00:37:31.180 And they love the praise of men.

00:37:32.980 And they became very popular because they did have some really good things to say.

00:37:37.620 At least some good things to say.

00:37:39.360 And they became popular and not just popular within the church, but they began to be given prestige and welcome by people in the culture.

00:37:47.060 And, and they loved it.

00:37:48.780 They loved it.

00:37:49.780 Like the ring with Gollum, it poisoned their hearts and they, and they didn't want to, they didn't want to give it up.

00:37:54.800 And so as the culture continued to gravitate further and further from God, um, they, they made concession after concession after concession, because they love the glory that comes from men more than the glory that comes from God.

00:38:06.880 And, but yeah, it is, it's, it is ultimately, I mean, that's what Keller's doing is he's calling

00:38:10.700 us to hate people. He he's basically saying, don't give them the gospel. And if Keller was

00:38:15.080 here to be fair in his defense, he would say, well, no, no, no, you just need to contextualize

00:38:18.620 the gospel. And I, and I, oh my goodness, I can't stand that because what he means by contextualize

00:38:24.460 the gospel, um, cause I'm all for contextualizing the gospel, but in, in brief, I'll say it like

00:38:29.500 this to contextualize the gospel. When we present the gospel, different cultures and different

00:38:33.500 people in different places of life. What we're doing in our contextualization is we are utilizing

00:38:40.480 everything we possibly can to make the gospel clearer. But when other guys like Keller say

00:38:47.300 contextualize the gospel, what they mean is obscure the gospel, water down the gospel,

00:38:53.260 truncate the gospel, take the punch out of the gospel, weaken the gospel, make the gospel

00:39:00.620 impotent you know that that's what the water it down um so whereas paul when he contextualizes

00:39:07.260 the gospel he's making uh he's taking everything he's saying all right if i just give you my my

00:39:12.200 typical gospel presentation uh you'll probably get it but i really want to make sure you get i

00:39:17.420 really want to make sure you know that there's a thrice holy god who is the creator of heaven and

00:39:21.460 earth and i really want to make sure you know that you've committed cosmic treason against him

00:39:25.520 And that you dust from the earth have raised your fist in defiance of him and are worthy of his eternal just torment and wrath for all of eternity.

00:39:35.400 I don't want you to miss that. 0.97

00:39:37.060 So I'm going to contextualize the gospel.

00:39:39.620 That's not how Keller uses the phrase contextual contextualization.

00:39:44.700 No, and you can tell by the way that like he's praising, you know, Colbert's gospel, quote unquote, gospel presentation, which was like, yeah, the pastor I was talking to after I watched that.

00:39:54.960 he was like, he could have been talking about Buddhism. Like it was so, it was so vague,

00:39:59.160 but I think what's interesting, um, all of this and you can, whether you're talking about the

00:40:04.100 big fast and famous church models, whether you're talking about contextualization, um, you know,

00:40:09.600 bringing brand marketing into the church as a strategy, no matter what you're talking about

00:40:14.180 and biblical sexuality, throw that in there too. No matter what you're talking about,

00:40:17.760 the fundamental issue, it goes back to, uh, Matthew chapter 11. When I first came across

00:40:23.920 that passage kind of toby sumter was preaching on it i've seen it with new eyes i think and i

00:40:30.140 realized something i was like well if if you're gonna be the hard man like john the baptist like

00:40:36.800 you're gonna get your head cut off john john was hated he had to live in the desert you don't grow

00:40:42.380 up on the fear of man when you dress in camel's hair and eat bugs yeah it's like god was hard 0.99

00:40:48.340 wiring into John, you cannot fear man. You have to fear God. And so I think when we've talked to

00:40:54.320 people about like, you know, how do you embrace this message? Well, first of all, you have to

00:40:57.820 fear God. You have to love the glory that comes from God and not from men. And listen, like count

00:41:02.840 the cost. I mean, when I started the podcast, I've worked in magazine industry and a bunch of other

00:41:07.760 stuff. Literally bosses came to me and were like, yeah, you're going to get fired. And I was like,

00:41:13.560 you know I believe it's true I believe it's a frontline battle in our culture and man what

00:41:19.780 have we heard for two years straight yeah yeah I mean I guys tell me this all the time yeah you're

00:41:24.220 right but man in my situation I it was just the cost would be too much I said listen the problem

00:41:30.680 is somebody somewhere is going to have to stand up and say no yeah and I know for a fact it's

00:41:38.380 been costly. I've had friends, you know, I have a Twitter account. I have friends,

00:41:42.860 literally a guy called me and he said, Hey man, I just shared your tweet and I got fired. And I

00:41:47.460 said, what do you mean? And it was literally like from first Corinthians seven, you know,

00:41:52.080 wives should love your husbands. You should not withhold sex from them. Like straight what the

00:41:57.080 passage says. Nothing. I didn't add hardly anything to it. And the crazy thing is he got

00:42:01.480 fired, but his job was, he was actually a professor at Southern Baptist seminary. They fired him.

00:42:08.380 And yeah, actually, it's like, you can't even make this stuff up. And so you're thinking about this. And it's like, okay, listen, it's going to be unpopular. Some of us are just going to have to leave the charge and be hated and embrace really the spirit of John the Baptist.

00:42:24.940 you know, you go out, you, in a sense, you violently preach, you're confronting the idols

00:42:30.560 of the day. People will say the same thing to me, like, well, it seems like you're trying to

00:42:34.940 aggravate the feminist. I'm like, I'm not trying to aggravate the feminist. I'm trying to preach

00:42:38.580 the truth, but I know what the idol of the day is. That's the thing. Like Gideon, you know,

00:42:44.620 it's not like, well, go out in the public square and just kind of like talk to them and see, like

00:42:48.560 build a relationship with them for a little while. And then, you know, over time, as you

00:42:53.160 build your relational capital, you know, you can speak to them in a way that the culture can handle

00:42:57.440 and that they can handle. No, what did he do? He went and he burnt the altar down in the street.

00:43:03.320 And I think that's a huge part of, we just have to embrace that as part of what ministry is going

00:43:08.280 to look like in our context. Yeah, I completely agree. I'm looking,

00:43:12.140 trying to find a quote, but I'm not going to find it, but it was Charles Spurgeon.

00:43:15.420 no it wasn't it was Martin Luther it was Martin Luther and he said he said wherever the battle

00:43:23.800 rages the fiercest there the loyalty of the soldier is tested and I'm paraphrasing he said

00:43:30.500 if I he said if I fight with with as much courage and bravery as possible on every point of

00:43:38.080 orthodoxy but but i shrink on the one point that currently is under fire where the battle is

00:43:46.060 currently raging then i deny christ that i'm not professing christ and i think that's what i was

00:43:54.600 pretty impressive by the way i looked that up as you were reading and that was pretty darn close

00:43:59.800 okay all right yeah so the only little difference was the finish he says go ahead and read yeah so

00:44:03.780 So it says, where the battle rages, there the loyalty of the soldier is proved.

00:44:08.080 And to be steady on all the battlefield besides is mere flight and disgrace if he flinches at that point.

00:44:14.960 Gosh, that's a good quote.

00:44:16.400 I was close.

00:44:17.200 It's amazing.

00:44:17.660 But that's better.

00:44:18.740 You were.

00:44:19.260 Yeah.

00:44:19.700 That's a great quote.

00:44:21.200 So with that, I remember I did a short video one time that got some decent attention about how to tell if your pastor is a coward.

00:44:29.300 And I said, one of the ways to tell if your pastor is a coward is if he rails with pseudo courage, um, against giants that are already laying face down in the dirt.

00:44:40.180 Right.

00:44:40.760 That's huge.

00:44:41.540 I think, I think that's one of the things it's like, you know, a boy, you know, boys who shave, right.

00:44:47.160 You know, and you're hit, you're basically you're hitting, you're hitting a giant that may have been a giant, right.

00:44:52.560 Toxic masculinity may have actually been a thing, but it hasn't been a thing.

00:44:56.360 not by and large, not, of course, there are anecdotal evidence and one-off cases. But if

00:45:02.660 we talk about at large plaguing the culture and the church today, today, that's not the issue.

00:45:09.840 The issue is not masculinity. The issue is feminism. We know that's the issue. But what 0.97

00:45:15.480 we'll see is we'll see guys attacking giants after some brave, some actually brave David already 0.58

00:45:22.520 slayed them right so it's like it's like the people of israel they're quivering they're shaking

00:45:27.160 as as goliath is not just taunting them but he's defying god he's cursing and blaspheming god and 0.81

00:45:35.580 and david says who what in the world is going on why is nobody cutting off this guy's head this 0.75

00:45:42.560 uncircumcised philistine who has the gall and the audacity to defy the armies of the living god i 1.00

00:45:49.120 will cut off your head and feed your carcass to the birds this day. And he does it. And there's 1.00

00:45:54.100 something in the men of the people of God that is ignited in that moment, that's kindled and boom,

00:46:02.400 they pursue the Philistines and they do what they always were capable of doing, right? It's not like 0.95

00:46:08.360 we couldn't have done it without David. They actually could have done it without David,

00:46:12.320 so long as it without David wasn't without the Lord. So long as they had the Lord, they didn't

00:46:16.320 need David. They could have pursued the Philistines and Goliath and taken them all down, but they 0.99

00:46:21.880 needed courage. They needed to be encouraged, inflamed with courage. And I think, man, I think

00:46:29.240 guys like you, guys like Doug Wilson, guys like Jeff Durbin, guys like Toby Sumter, guys like

00:46:34.920 Michael Foster, the Christian men in our nation, especially in all around the world need

00:46:42.380 um, a couple of guys to, to, to just to say, we can do it. We can, we can take them. We can take

00:46:48.760 them. I, you know, we can, and then all of a sudden what happens is, yeah, you get a lot of

00:46:52.900 ridicule and yeah, you get a lot of flack and yeah. Uh, some people, they, they hate you and

00:46:57.440 they try to get you fired and they try to cancel you. And I'm talking about Christians sadly right 1.00

00:47:00.740 now, but, um, but, but there's also a ton of other people that you don't always see, but who

00:47:06.640 are invigorated and, and inspired and, and they're like, he's right. He's right. I know he's right.

00:47:13.720 We've got, and, and they start taking their stands and we don't always see it, but they start taking

00:47:18.580 us, maybe it's just taking a stand in their marriage. Right. I love like Doug Wilson's

00:47:22.100 concept of, you know, establishing a house of peace on the foundation of the solid foundation

00:47:27.240 of lies. And what he's getting at is like, you, you cannot tell your wife what she wants to hear

00:47:33.540 if it requires deceitfulness simply to keep the peace. That's not a true peace. And so one of the

00:47:41.360 ways to be masculine, to be courageous is to stand up to your own wife. And that's not being harsh

00:47:47.460 or anything like that, but just having the courage to actually love your wife enough to tell her the

00:47:54.420 truth and not just what she wants, but what she actually needs to hear. And so there are a ton of

00:47:59.120 men who've been listening to you and all these other guys. And we don't always see the incredible

00:48:04.840 victories that God is bringing about by a few Davids. And I know Matt Chandler would say,

00:48:09.920 well, you're not David. And I was like, well, I actually think, I know I'm not David, but I

00:48:13.900 actually think that we should emulate godly examples of people in the Bible. It's not just,

00:48:19.480 it's yes, Jesus, all the scripture points towards Christ and Christ is the better David.

00:48:24.960 But that still, that doesn't do anything. So don't follow David's example. Okay. Then follow Christ.

00:48:29.120 And David was a type of Christ, and he sets the same example for us.

00:48:32.340 So no matter how you slice it, we need to go after Goliath.

00:48:35.360 And when we do, all the men behind us, who just a second ago, their knees were shaking,

00:48:41.100 the Spirit of God comes upon them when they see things like that.

00:48:45.340 And then all of a sudden, they're running right behind you.

00:48:47.980 Guys who were just moments ago cowering are all of a sudden shouting and charging into the battle.

00:48:54.040 And the men are there.

00:48:56.000 and they just need they you know if you would just lead them you know william wallace yeah i mean

00:49:03.040 it's absolutely william wallace is exactly what i was thinking of um you know he tells the bruce

00:49:07.480 in the movie uh you know men don't follow titles they follow courage um and what you see i i was

00:49:14.280 thinking as you were talking about that it's a billy graham quote but he said courage is contagious

00:49:18.620 when a brave man takes a stand the spines of others are often stiffened and you know fortunately

00:49:24.260 we have and that's been kind of the cool thing like hearing people's feedback

00:49:27.880 but it is so I mean it's just the grace of God you hear these stories and you

00:49:33.000 think man I was basically just you know trying to be faithful in this

00:49:36.860 little sphere and it's probably encouragement for other people you know

00:49:39.840 be faithful where you are if you have a 5, 10, 15 talent guy it doesn't matter

00:49:43.760 be faithful with whatever talents the Lord has given you

00:49:47.260 we have a unique opportunity many of us in our day you know podcasts and stuff

00:49:51.280 like what we're doing now, but you have the opportunity, like you said, just to be courageous.

00:49:56.600 And we've had people say, I mean, these are the ones that get me like, I'll get emails from women

00:50:01.080 and they'll say, you know, I was disobeying my husband for years and I really bought the

00:50:06.060 lie of feminism and I had to go to him and repent. And I decided to quit my job and we're going to

00:50:13.260 start having children. I mean, I hear stuff like that and literally just brings tears to your eyes

00:50:19.100 because you're seeing that God is transforming people in the midst of all the chaos that's going

00:50:24.680 on. God is still so faithful in all of this. He hasn't left us alone. And there are people who

00:50:30.320 are being faithful. And the other thing I would say to pastors, you're bringing this up before,

00:50:34.680 but I always called it expositional cowardice, right? Where you're like preaching through a

00:50:39.860 text and you're like, yeah, I mean, everything you said is, you didn't say anything that was a lie,

00:50:44.040 but you, you just passed right over the, you know, 800 pound gorilla in the room that we know.

00:50:50.720 And so often I think, you know, I've asked myself this a lot as a pastor,

00:50:56.000 but why don't I preach that the way that it ought to be preached? Um, why, or at least why am I like,

00:51:01.800 I want to draw back from it. And I think every faithful man who's preaching, um, is going to

00:51:07.740 face those moments. And, and the reality is, is because, you know, you have, you know, in your

00:51:12.020 churches, you know, you have feminists, you know, you have men who aren't leading, you know, you

00:51:15.820 have men who are acting, you know, butch and it's uncomfortable. And you know, that that's going to

00:51:21.120 be pastorally inconvenient. And you've got to, you've got to deal with those things. You know,

00:51:25.040 that you have elders and deacons and people in your church that there's sin that people have

00:51:29.540 left unaddressed for a long time. And you're looking at it and you're saying, I'm going to

00:51:32.860 have to deal with that. And this is really where, you know, the masculinity comes in, as you were

00:51:36.720 saying, you're going to have to deal with your wife. You're going to have to deal with your

00:51:40.100 children. You know, by the way, you're going to have to start with yourself. You know, he who

00:51:44.240 conquers must conquer himself first. So, all of these things, this is where to me, it's like

00:51:49.660 courage on the big stage is like fun and glamorous sometimes. But for me, where I learned a lot of

00:51:55.580 this is just little habits in the trenches of, I have to go talk to this person and I really don't

00:52:01.620 want to. And I could go into the conversation and I could be like, you know, kind of smooth things

00:52:06.180 over and pull my punches. Or I could just go in that conversation and say like, look, brother,

00:52:10.200 I think you've sinned. I think here's where it is. I love you. And here I am. Like, let's work

00:52:14.800 through this. Amen. That's where a lot of the courage is going to show up. Yeah. And at the

00:52:19.960 end of the day, the Lord, the Lord is faithful. And, you know, if, if you do get attacked, if you,

00:52:26.200 like, I, you know, it sounds like, you know, you, you lost some things. It was a cost. There's

00:52:30.200 always a cost to discipleship. There's a cost to following Jesus. You know, but I, I, I had

00:52:37.000 similar experiences. I remember, you know, when I taught through first Timothy, it was 2019 taught

00:52:41.240 through first Timothy and instead of speeding up, right. The 800 pound gorilla, I got to first

00:52:46.960 Timothy, you know, I had mapped it out and it was first Timothy chapter two, verses nine through

00:52:51.020 15. And I was going to do it in a week. And I decided to slow down. And I spent a whole week

00:52:56.500 just on the way that women dressed, a man telling women how to dress. And then I spent three weeks 0.90

00:53:02.840 on a woman should not teach. She must learn quietness and full submission. I do not allow 1.00

00:53:08.080 her to teach or exercise authority over a man. I spent almost a whole week just on women will be 1.00

00:53:13.920 saved through childbearing. And so I spent four weeks on that text. And in those four weeks,

00:53:20.720 I kid you not I lost about a third of the church about really 40 adults left the church did you get

00:53:27.520 a lot of feedback from the people who left yeah I got 20 page papers emails from from and from

00:53:34.440 the men you know and they were not quiet about it no they weren't quiet and even some of the

00:53:39.440 things that we've talked about so far on on this episode where I talked about yeah the fruit of

00:53:43.640 the spirit coming as a package deal the spirit not being divisible in parts a simple being

00:53:48.240 and the fruit of the spirit, all of them being present for the believer, um, at all times,

00:53:54.660 um, you know, Jesus had in full, full measure, but the whole spirit is, is present for the

00:54:00.180 believer, the indwelling spirit of God. And it's our sin that is simply veiling the spirit at

00:54:05.300 times. And so as we put sin to death by grace, as we mortify the flesh, um, then, then the spirit

00:54:11.240 shines brighter. Um, and, and as we're, you know, taking courage in this instance over here, it's,

00:54:17.660 It's not that we're putting gentleness to the side.

00:54:20.540 That's what gentleness looks like when applied to this situation.

00:54:23.960 And so I talked about all that.

00:54:24.980 But then I also talked about that in the terms of, and the fruit of the Spirit looks different in a woman and looks different in a man.

00:54:33.860 And so I talked about that, you know, and yeah, I was called a heretic.

00:54:39.340 I, you know, like 20 page paper.

00:54:41.160 I mean, people, they lost their minds.

00:54:43.700 I mean, they were furious, furious. 0.96

00:54:46.180 You could see women on the back road, like taking, jotting out notes so that when they met with me later, they could criticize all the, I mean, so there is a cost, you know, there's absolutely a cost.

00:54:57.880 But God is so faithful.

00:55:00.400 I mean, so yeah, there was a cost and, you know, but, but here I am now and planting a new church and, and now people, I don't have a bunch of feminists in my church because feminists don't like me and won't come to my church, you know.

00:55:15.060 whereas before it's a natural repellent right so there's a cost of following jesus but to be honest 0.95

00:55:19.660 there's also a cost to previous sin you know like if i'm if i'm going to be honest the cost that i

00:55:25.540 was paying there was a retroactive cost that i had been storing up by my prior unfaithfulness

00:55:31.600 and i think a lot of pastors aren't honest about that they're like you know i oh i obeyed god and

00:55:36.420 look at what it cost me well part of the reason it cost you so much in one instance is because

00:55:42.100 you weren't paying that cost every day and little bites, you know, it's, it's like a penalty, right?

00:55:46.700 Like if you get a traffic violation or something like that, and you refuse to pay the ticket and

00:55:50.980 it accumulates further fines and all these kinds of things, and it's like debt, you know? And,

00:55:54.960 and so a lack of obedience over long periods of time, um, accrues a heavier cost. One of the

00:56:01.940 ways, you know, Jesus, all those who are heavy laden and, and, you know, who are weary come to

00:56:06.220 me, I'll give you rest. And it's like, what Jesus is going to give me rest. Like the guy who says,

00:56:10.320 take up your cross and fall. Yeah. I'm going to give you rest. And I, I, my, my yoke is easy.

00:56:15.740 My burden is light. And it's like, how in the world is the yoke of Christ easy and his burden

00:56:20.760 light? I would say one of the ways that it's two ways, two ways that it's easy and light

00:56:26.020 is one, he gives you his very spirit to empower you. But two he calls you to walk with him daily

00:56:33.940 and you get stronger along the way. And when you, when you follow Jesus and you're paying the cost

00:56:39.620 over a lifetime it's uh it's it's it's not as as taxing and so now like my day-to-day life of

00:56:47.300 obeying jesus i don't i'm not experiencing huge fallouts sure online i still you know get blasted

00:56:52.680 and stuff like that but who cares that's like a lot of times that's something you know even my

00:56:56.420 wife will just for fun we'll look at some of the youtube comments and laugh together you know like

00:56:59.980 you know like you know people making fun and they'll even make fun of my physical appearance

00:57:04.660 you know just like low jabs oh yeah and it's a great opportunity to just because who am i you

00:57:09.260 know, it's a great opportunity to not take yourself seriously, laugh at yourself. It's like,

00:57:12.200 yeah, I am kind of ugly. I kind of agree, you know, but you just, it's, it's okay. There's so

00:57:18.940 much freedom, you know? And, and then in that freedom, as you're following Jesus, all these

00:57:23.760 other people start to surround you who actually have your back, who actually love you, who aren't

00:57:28.880 going to stab you in the back and betray you or leave you, you know, because you started preaching

00:57:33.000 something that's in the word of God. And, um, it's like, it's like your, your, your relationships 0.89

00:57:39.380 get fewer, but richer, fewer, but deeper. That is so true. And I was going to say just through

00:57:46.360 ministry and everything that we've been through, you kind of figure out like, cause we were in a

00:57:50.340 lot of the sort of like T4G style churches, uh, post seminary for a long time. And it was like 0.89

00:57:56.300 every church I'd go to, they were kind of like, at some point they'd be like, yeah, you don't have

00:57:59.560 to leave but like this gendered piety sexuality stuff like you know you probably could find a

00:58:05.680 better place elsewhere and be happier because they're so non-confrontational about everything

00:58:10.540 but what we found is it was sort of like Nate Wilson said this but he said when you're facing

00:58:17.820 sharks he said the way you get them to go away is you lean in like you show no fear basically

00:58:23.160 and so as we started to do that it was progressive over time right but within a couple of years

00:58:29.000 we really started to find our gang. We ended up at Refuge Church, Brian Sauve, Dan Burkholder,

00:58:35.700 pastors here. But now it's exactly what you said. Like, we're surrounded by people who are like,

00:58:41.400 like, if we're going to war spiritually or otherwise, like these people have your back.

00:58:47.180 Some of the relationships that we've formed here, it's just unbelievable. But I think it's that

00:58:52.040 faithfulness of saying, look, I'm willing to be hated. I know that I'm not popular,

00:58:56.140 but I'm, I'm going to find my tribe and I'm going to be faithful to God. And just over time,

00:59:02.900 I mean, even the, even the work stuff, you know, I was, it was a cost I had to, you know, face out

00:59:07.220 for a long time, but it was funny too. Like eventually I met a guy who was supporting the

00:59:11.860 hard man podcast. And he said, you know, I have media company. You want to come work for me?

00:59:16.660 And I'm like, well, I mean, look, God is blessing, you know, he's taking care of his people,

00:59:22.420 you know same deal uh you you you talking about what god's done with the church i think it would

00:59:28.420 be my encouragement to a lot of men like yeah there's going to be initial fallout but you know

00:59:32.640 listen god says am i going to leave or forsake you no never um there's nothing that you lack

00:59:38.900 the young lions suffer hunger and want but you don't you know the lord is going to supply you

00:59:43.860 richly and and i would say that truly it's like it's not like this this martyr's path of just

00:59:49.300 woe is me but god's richly richly blessed yeah as we've leaned into the buzzsaw that's right

00:59:56.380 amen and i feel like there's just yeah god is just waking people up left and right all around

01:00:02.040 our nation i i feel like um i mean you know us screaming in a microphone in a podcast has not

01:00:08.640 done nearly as much persuasive has not had nearly the the persuasive effect of of a year and a half

01:00:16.040 of joe biden's presidency god bless joe biden that guy man he makes all of my arguments for me

01:00:22.080 much much much more effectively than i could um that guy has just shown how tyranny is terrible

01:00:28.560 how left is politics and ideology and marxism and socialism and all these and effeminacy yeah

01:00:34.800 right i mean that's something we talked about before we recorded but uh soft men uh kill they

01:00:41.000 they, they, they lend towards the killing, the death of, of people all over the place.

01:00:46.620 13 Marines, you know, killed in combat, American citizens, you know, in Afghanistan,

01:00:51.780 because Joe Biden is a soft man, right? I know it's a multifaceted situation,

01:00:56.540 but his softness is, is part of, of what happened there, you know, and the tyranny of children

01:01:02.740 having to wear masks, you know, at school while, while, while adults, you know, are having parties

01:01:10.000 unmasked and the hypocrisy and that, that, that is a soft man, president empathy, right? We,

01:01:15.580 we can't handle another mean tweet from Trump, you know, and like, and, and, and I'm not saying

01:01:20.280 that Trump is a hard man. He has some hard man. He's weird. It's like, he's a hard man and a soft

01:01:24.520 man in some way. Cause he, there's so much self-focus, you know, and building up self. And

01:01:29.040 so in some ways I would say Trump actually is effeminate. Although of course I voted for him 0.89

01:01:33.940 and I appreciated his, you know, his four years in office and I'd be happy to see him again, but,

01:01:39.180 But, you know, I want to be fair and say, like, Trump was a soft man in some other areas.

01:01:43.780 But there's a way of being a soft man by being aggressive, but self-focused.

01:01:47.860 And you're actually insecure.

01:01:48.960 But there's another way of being a soft man where you put on this thin veneer of empathy and compassion.

01:01:55.220 And I'm a caring president.

01:01:56.280 I'm going to unite, you know, and it's all a lie.

01:02:00.620 It's all a lie.

01:02:03.060 It really is.

01:02:04.100 It's interesting.

01:02:04.420 I always said about Donald Trump, you know, he's sinning in the direction of authentic masculinity.

01:02:10.120 So a lot of it is sin.

01:02:11.640 That's a good way to say it.

01:02:12.420 But, you know, it's kind of like the difference between, yeah, I mean, you're sinning along the lines of masculine character traits.

01:02:19.260 So it's like, you know, he's talking debaucherously about, you know, women, but, you know, a lot of people in the other camp, you were talking about pedophilia.

01:02:27.980 That's right.

01:02:28.260 And that's a very different thing.

01:02:29.680 That's a very different direction.

01:02:30.720 But I do think and it's a good it's a good example. And Jesus and John Wayne, actually, in the introduction, it's like the talking points from the DNC when you read the first part of the book. So I'll spare you from having to do that. But basically, Donald Trump was the thing that brought everything to light.

01:02:51.540 It brought these people out of the woodwork. They absolutely vehemently hate this guy. And I think a lot of it is because he's not, you know, quote unquote, deep state. He's not part of the establishment. He's a disruptor. But the other part about it is he, again, he's sitting in masculine directions.

01:03:08.440 even the stuff you know we're talking about with Ukraine Russia again complex geopolitical

01:03:14.740 situation but fundamentally I mean the memes are not wrong yeah there's a reason this didn't happen

01:03:20.320 on Trump's watch because he was for all of his failures he was not a weak person that's right 0.91

01:03:26.640 so you kind of combine this this weak sclerotic Joe Biden with the gynocratic rule of Kamala and 0.92

01:03:35.480 And really what people don't realize, like the Obama White House is really in office right now, in a sense.

01:03:41.920 Susan Rice, very much involved. John Kerry, all these people who created the original problem starting back in, you know, in the early teens of the 2000s.

01:03:52.200 But yeah, it fundamentally comes down to that. But then it's so hypocritical because what's the response in all this?

01:03:58.980 Right. Who are we? We're praising Zelensky. We're calling for military. Military is like fundamentally. 0.74

01:04:04.320 like i've talked to people in the military yeah they do these little pr stunts where the purple 0.83

01:04:09.440 haired whatever generals or you know the transgenders um they parade those people out 1.00

01:04:15.420 there but when it comes down to it they're not the ones fighting yeah the ones fighting are your 0.99

01:04:20.420 hardcore tough you know texas bronc riding you know chris kyle types yeah and there's a reason

01:04:26.700 like we know that that's who you need to defend men are made to be protectors defenders fighters

01:04:31.920 warriors it's in our nature you shed blood for your community all these things so it's it's funny

01:04:37.140 you get into the conflict and they're like yeah we need the men to settle up and go to war for us

01:04:40.960 and it's you know again we all know and this is what I this is what I would point to Chuck Knox

01:04:46.580 says this all the time but it's the metaphysical reality these are the realities of God's creation

01:04:52.400 this is how he made the world you know it's like being mad at gravity being mad that men are this

01:04:59.160 way and women are this way. You know, that's the reality. Yeah. The way I say it is you can push

01:05:03.900 back. So part of the dominion mandate that's given to men is to push back against the curse that is

01:05:08.720 on creation, but there's a distinction in pushing back against the curse on creation versus pushing

01:05:14.620 back against creation itself. And so that's huge. When we try to cure cancer, we're trying to push

01:05:20.080 back the curse on creation. But when we try to, to shift up the genders, we're not pushing back 1.00

01:05:28.240 on the curse of creation we're pushing back on creation itself and as a wise prophet once said

01:05:34.020 in jurassic park nature always finds a way you're not going to beat nature no matter how much

01:05:39.420 technology how much science nature if you go to war against nature nature will win and the reason

01:05:45.880 why is because it's god's world and he has set it up in such a way that we we ultimately cannot

01:05:52.060 break his rules without consequences because God will not be mocked. A man reaps what he serves.

01:05:59.540 And yeah. So any final thoughts? I think this has been great. I really appreciate you coming

01:06:04.040 on the show. Yeah, absolutely. So glad to be on here. It's been phenomenal. We've certainly been

01:06:10.320 given, I think, our fodder recently. As you said, the last couple of years, I've just kind of

01:06:15.820 marveled at the moment that it's been, God has been so gracious. And I would point to certain

01:06:21.860 people like Michael Foster, Doug Wilson, Toby Sumter, Chuck Knox, people who have influenced me,

01:06:27.280 super appreciate those guys. One of the things that, you know, I would leave the listeners with

01:06:31.720 and it stuck through my mind is in everything, you know, there's this whole like the world's

01:06:36.600 coming apart thing that everybody resorts to every time something gets bad. And, you know,

01:06:41.380 no doubt, you know, inflation, all these things are bad. But something particularly Michael Foster

01:06:45.200 always says to me is he's like, Eric, what a huge opportunity we have right now. And I would just

01:06:49.480 press that upon people. This is like, I'm looking out there, Joel, and I'm seeing like the fields

01:06:54.740 are white for harvest. There are so many people for the first time in their life, they are seeing

01:06:58.800 things they've never seen before. They're saying we have a problem. And so pastors, men, especially

01:07:03.620 bring the message of God's design and sexuality, be men, get your households in order,

01:07:10.900 love your wives as scripture calls you, lead them, rule in your homes. As you do these things,

01:07:16.980 Don't despair about global.

01:07:19.020 You have almost nothing that you can do about those things.

01:07:21.800 And God's not going to hold you responsible for that.

01:07:23.680 But what you do have responsibility over, you can go home.

01:07:26.540 You can love your wife.

01:07:27.640 You can raise your children in the fear and admonition of the Lord.

01:07:30.360 And that does make a difference.

01:07:32.440 So be like Levin in the world.

01:07:34.960 Amen.

01:07:35.600 Thanks so much for coming on, Eric.

01:07:36.840 I appreciate it.

01:07:38.480 Absolutely.

01:07:39.000 Thank you, Joel.

01:07:40.100 Thanks so much for listening.

01:07:41.240 But real quick, before you go, do us a small favor.

01:07:44.500 take a moment and leave us a five-star review if you enjoyed the show. This is undoubtedly

01:07:49.840 the best way that you can help us get this biblically faithful content

01:07:53.980 to as many people as possible. Thanks so much.

The NXR Podcast - March 22, 2022

THEOLOGY APPLIED - How “Soft Men” Cause Destruction

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