The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - How The Church Idolizes Women

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, real quick, before we get started, I have a small request.

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00:00:18.220 All right, welcome to another exciting episode of Theology Applied.

00:00:21.420 I really, really enjoy this conversation with Samuel Say.

00:00:25.360 Samuel Say, he goes by the handle SlowToEmail.

00:00:29.020 Now, it's slow to write, slow to write.

00:00:31.640 You can find him on Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, all over the place.

00:00:35.600 You can read his blog.

00:00:36.560 He's just had a lot of insightful articles and just been a faithful, steady voice over

00:00:42.260 the last two, three, four, five years with all just the craziness with critical race

00:00:47.720 theory, social justice, economic policies that are socialistic, socialism in nature.

00:00:56.720 So he's been really helpful on these things.

00:00:58.140 And he's also had some really good things to say in regards to the recent spike with

00:01:03.960 just craziness in our culture surrounding the issue of abortion with the very real possibility

00:01:12.500 of Roe being overturned.

00:01:14.820 So we talk about abortion.

00:01:16.200 We talk about our nation's idolatry of women, right?

00:01:22.040 We talk about you can worship women or you can save babies, but you can't do both.

00:01:26.260 We talk about, um, the abolitionist perspective position versus an incrementalist position,

00:01:32.840 um, being, uh, an immediatism versus, um, a gradualistic approach.

00:01:39.040 And, and we, you know, he would be more of this gradualistic and I would be more of the

00:01:44.000 immediatist, um, abolition approach.

00:01:46.320 And so we talk about all those kinds of things.

00:01:47.900 And then we also talk about, um, white supremacy and, uh, we, we use names.

00:01:54.000 We talk about one of my personal favorite race hustlers, Gavin Ortlund, and his recent

00:01:58.760 tweets where he talks about, I can't, you know, not sure if the church has the courage,

00:02:02.920 you know, to come out and condemn white supremacy.

00:02:05.440 So we talk about the race hustlers.

00:02:06.960 We talk about just the gaslighting and the joke that we see going on right now in our

00:02:11.980 nation and sadly within many leaders in the evangelical church.

00:02:16.600 It's a great conversation.

00:02:18.020 I think you'll enjoy it.

00:02:19.420 Tune in.

00:02:20.480 Applying God's word to every aspect of life.

00:02:23.840 This is Theology Applied.

00:02:31.020 All right, welcome to another episode of Theology Applied.

00:02:33.700 I am your host, Pastor Joel Webbin with Right Response Ministries.

00:02:37.140 And today I am very privileged to have as a special guest, someone that I've tried to

00:02:41.040 get for a while.

00:02:41.840 He's had a lot going on.

00:02:42.920 He just got married.

00:02:43.780 He just got out of, well, he just got out of, I think, North Korea or was it Canada?

00:02:49.420 And I can't remember, you know, basically the same.

00:02:52.040 But anyway, so I finally got him on the show.

00:02:54.300 Samuel say he goes by the handle slow to email.

00:02:56.740 No, I'm just slow to write, slow to write.

00:03:00.060 But he got back to me and I'm honored to have you on here.

00:03:02.520 So Samuel, introduce yourself to our listeners.

00:03:05.280 Well, I was honored to be here before that intro.

00:03:07.660 And now I'm not quite sure.

00:03:09.520 I'm kidding.

00:03:10.600 No, yeah, it's great to be here.

00:03:14.020 It really is.

00:03:14.540 I'm looking forward to a conversation.

00:03:15.720 um i just got married um last month so now i think i have all this wisdom now i was mentioning

00:03:22.180 to you before that i think i'm ready to write a book on marriage now so yeah you can you can do

00:03:28.840 that it's like they just made a movie about batman two years into being batman you know like there is

00:03:33.780 a market for it's like i remember going and i didn't know that background so i was i was watching

00:03:37.480 i was like this is kind of like a scrawny kind of weak batman like and and then i when i heard that

00:03:43.660 And so all you have to do is just in the fine print, say, um, my take on marriage one month

00:03:48.560 in, you know, you don't claim to be an expert, but you can still sell some books.

00:03:52.320 So, yeah, no, um, but yeah, it really is an honor to be here.

00:03:56.580 I've been following you on social media for a while and it's, uh, I've seen many of your,

00:04:00.560 uh, your guests, so it's really a privilege to be here.

00:04:02.640 So thank you.

00:04:03.280 Cool.

00:04:03.440 Well, it's a privilege to have you.

00:04:04.540 I really appreciate it.

00:04:05.380 And I've heard you, well, I've, I've read, um, uh, some of your articles, but then I've

00:04:09.260 also heard you a couple of times on, uh, Ali Bestucki.

00:04:12.080 And so that's, that's been great to, I like, I like following her and it's been great to

00:04:15.860 hear you there.

00:04:16.340 So let's go ahead and talk about, we're going to talk about a lot of stuff.

00:04:19.580 You and I, we were kind of brainstorming a little bit before we pressed record, but we

00:04:23.340 want to talk about abortion.

00:04:24.460 We want to talk about incrementalism versus abolitionism.

00:04:28.220 And, and you said you're going to, you're actually working on an article right now on

00:04:32.620 that issue of, am I an incrementalist?

00:04:35.600 Am I an abolitionist?

00:04:36.720 And, and you're working on that in terms of abortion.

00:04:39.480 but let's start with an article that you just recently wrote um let me pull up the title real

00:04:44.840 quick it's um you titled it does the pro-life movement help mothers how old is this let's see

00:04:52.500 may may 6th yeah is that is that one of your most recent ones on on this issue yeah a couple of

00:04:58.740 weeks ago yeah okay cool so this is just a couple weeks old may 6th um how again the title uh does

00:05:06.500 the pro-life movement help mothers? And that seems to be the dichotomy that I think you and I would

00:05:11.020 both agree is a false dichotomy, but we won't explain why. But the dichotomy that keeps getting

00:05:15.400 shoved in our faces, and sadly, this is the dichotomy, like, well, do you love babies or do

00:05:20.200 you love mothers? Like, are you pro-birth or are you pro-life, you know, like from womb to tomb?

00:05:24.620 And that's been pushed, that rhetoric's been pushed by Democrats and pro-choice, you know,

00:05:31.120 people for a very very long time but it seems as though that same rhetoric has been recently picked

00:05:36.860 up by by pro-life guys even evangelical christian guys even russell moore guys what what do you

00:05:45.020 think about that samuel oh man i i i i have to kind of relax when i talk about this because i i

00:05:52.300 cannot i that argument just it's very irritating especially when it's coming from pro-life people

00:05:59.460 are Christians, where, as you said, this is for decades, the pro-abortion side has been using

00:06:05.020 this as a talking point. And now you have Christians and pro-life people embracing this.

00:06:10.560 But, you know, not to move away from the topic, but I've been warning about this for a long time

00:06:15.600 in light of critical race theory. This is all a result. All those guys that you mentioned,

00:06:20.140 Russell Moore, David Frenches of the world, they've embraced a form of critical race theory,

00:06:25.060 Which calls on them to consider other issues, such as so-called systemic racism, as just as important as the abortion issue.

00:06:34.520 In fact, you had Thabiti, who has embraced critical race theory, who said that racism is a much bigger issue in America than abortion is.

00:06:43.940 Well, when you believe that, well, then you have to believe that you can't just be so-called pro-birth, or you have to be, as you said earlier, holistically pro-life or from womb to tomb, because they really believe, well, they claim to believe, I'm trying to be as kind as possible, but also honest, they claim to believe that black people are just at risk of death, really, as pre-born babies are, which is ridiculous.

00:07:12.340 So it's coming from critical race theory. And of course, it's a lie. You know, I mean, it's I've said this before, but the only people, the only people in our society where it's legal to kill them across the United States or across Canada is preborn babies.

00:07:29.840 Nobody else. Black people who are born have rights. And I mentioned who are born because, of course, black people who are not born, black people who are in the womb get killed, you know, enormously.

00:07:42.380 You talk about disparities by race. One of the biggest disparities by race in America is, of course, the abortion rate in black communities.

00:07:50.760 Sadly, abortion and sadly crime often. But you're right.

00:07:55.260 Yeah, so so much more that I'm sure I could say about that. But a lot of the reasons why people are embracing this is because of critical race theory and just the idea of social justice thinking within the church today.

00:08:06.620 And it's one of the things I tell people that, look, I'm going to be delivering a talk very soon at a pro-life, you know, events for young people.

00:08:16.320 And one of the things I'm going to be warning them is one of the biggest challenges they're going to have as pro-life advocates in America as Christians is critical race theory and social justice.

00:08:25.260 that it's growing within the church in many ways.

00:08:28.140 And because of that, it's threatening pro-life work within the church.

00:08:31.660 Yep, I agree.

00:08:33.200 You know, you mentioned Thabiti, I always call him Anabwile, but I'm pretty sure it's pronounced Anabwile.

00:08:40.620 But I don't feel much obligation to pronounce made-up names correctly.

00:08:45.560 So if it's not your God-given name, then I just, I'm not quite as, you know, as concerned about getting it right.

00:08:52.440 But Thibidi Anabuile, I remember he was doing a talk.

00:08:56.840 It was a podcast with Matt Chandler, and it was right before the 2016 election between

00:09:01.640 Trump and Hillary.

00:09:03.860 And I remember him saying, and I think this gets us into the conversation of this false

00:09:08.260 dichotomy, but I remember him saying, yeah, well, yeah, the sanctity of life and the sanctity

00:09:15.580 of the unborn is near and dear to the heart of God, but God's got a big heart.

00:09:19.720 That was kind of his infamous, you know, one-liner.

00:09:23.340 God's got a big heart.

00:09:24.700 God cares about injustice and poverty.

00:09:27.520 And he, you know, listed some other things.

00:09:29.780 And I remember being, well, I just remember being angry as I was listening to that because I felt like it was so deceptive.

00:09:35.940 And he even said, like he advocated and said, we should vote for Hillary because we have, we've got a game plan for the Clintons.

00:09:43.100 um and and for the record i you know i and and many other people had no idea you know that you

00:09:49.220 know there was there was no basis for us to think that trump was going to keep any of his promises

00:09:52.560 at the time i think it was a very different thing to vote for trump in 2020 versus 2016 you know

00:09:57.760 but uh but at the time people who were like well i don't know about trump that's one thing but to

00:10:01.780 say like we should vote for hillary right like that that's different you can say i don't know

00:10:06.560 if we should vote for trump and that's different than saying we should vote for hillary and so i

00:10:11.240 was really bothered by that um but but then he you know well god's got a big heart and and he's

00:10:15.920 setting up this dichotomy which you you have to i i don't know if you've noticed this but number

00:10:20.280 one you have to put you can't just put like abortion on on one set of the scale on one side

00:10:25.320 of the scale and then um and then you know like um economic you know justice on the like you have

00:10:32.760 to list like 10 things and and guys instinctively know this because you're talking about the murder

00:10:37.660 of a child so you got it like so number one you can't just do well this thing and this thing so

00:10:42.160 you have to weigh this down with multiple issues but and and then it kind of blurs it but if you

00:10:46.500 if you begin to pick and look at each one it's like okay but does welfare actually help people

00:10:51.820 does this actually help people does defunding the police actually help people is socialism

00:10:56.560 actually helpful is it and and if when you look at it it's not even the argument isn't just well

00:11:01.820 the life of the unborn is more important than this and i would say that's true the life of the

00:11:06.260 born is the issue. It is a more important issue, even when you couple it over here with 10 issues.

00:11:12.380 I think that this one is nearer to the heart of God than these other ones. But then the biggest

00:11:16.640 problem is not even the matter of which one's more important to the heart of God, but the

00:11:23.080 biggest thing is which one is clear in scripture, which one is true. We don't have to do a lot of

00:11:29.280 exegetical gymnastics to say you shouldn't murder babies, right? I mean, that's an easy biblical

00:11:34.800 argument to make but but to say that um that welfare is is mandated in scripture and that it

00:11:42.340 actually is effective in alleviating poverty that's you know what i mean so it's not these

00:11:48.720 things aren't equal but they're also not equally true do you have some thoughts on that oh absolutely

00:11:54.000 um i there was a pastor in canada who said that um you know if you don't support i'm sure you've

00:12:00.460 before if you don't support paid um if you don't support um paid maternity leave you're not pro-life

00:12:06.700 so i'm like wait a minute are we okay i'm like that's actually yours this is going to be

00:12:12.640 controversial for many people but this is just i think biblical truth uh we forget a lot about

00:12:17.300 christ's parables uh in in many ways including how some of them are dealing with our culture

00:12:23.320 uh christ i believe in the parable of the vineyard um i might be butchering that uh but

00:12:28.680 it talks about how does the master not have a right

00:12:33.760 to give people the wages that he wants.

00:12:37.140 And that's Christ saying this,

00:12:39.100 which means that if you own a business,

00:12:41.060 if you own property,

00:12:42.620 you have a right to decide on what you think is fair.

00:12:46.000 If I am a business owner,

00:12:47.500 I would like to be able to give people maternity leave

00:12:50.680 if I think that's best.

00:12:53.240 But it should be up to me.

00:12:55.060 And that's what Christ is saying.

00:12:56.700 So if you say to someone that you have to force them, even if you think it's good, but to force them, that's an injustice, according to Christ himself.

00:13:04.500 Right, and to push a little further with that, it's not just up to you.

00:13:08.620 I know what you're saying, but it's actually, it's up to you and the employee, because in that parable, one of the things that he says is, did you, not just, it's my money, it's my resources, therefore I have the right to be generous in whatever proportion and to however I want.

00:13:22.480 But he also says, did you not agree to work for this wage?

00:13:26.620 So it's not even just like I'm in charge and I get to do what I want.

00:13:30.100 It's beyond that.

00:13:31.400 It's you entered into a covenant, you know, it is a contract with two parties and you

00:13:39.100 agreed to these terms, right?

00:13:41.440 So, I mean, you should have said, well, no, I'm not going to do that, you know?

00:13:46.160 And then some other employer, some other master who does offer, you know, the paid child leave

00:13:52.260 or whatever, then you could go and work for them and say, I don't think your wages are

00:13:55.740 fair, I'm going to go over here.

00:13:57.000 But the moment that you say, yeah, I agree to these terms, I think that it's fair, then

00:14:02.500 that, you know, yeah.

00:14:03.720 Yeah.

00:14:04.300 But, you know, yeah, so I completely agree with you.

00:14:06.960 And when, again, it's even there's one thing to argue that an individual or boss should

00:14:11.160 choose that.

00:14:12.160 But when you say the government has to mandate that as an injustice, because then you're

00:14:15.580 removing that, you're moving someone's rights away from them where it becomes an injustice.

00:14:19.460 And then I also say that, you know, when it comes to the Old Testament, when God is talking about child sacrifice, you never hear God saying, well, hey, you know, the reason why people are killing their babies is because you don't have free health care.

00:14:34.040 You don't have welfare system.

00:14:35.320 You don't have all these.

00:14:35.900 It's ridiculous, right?

00:14:37.040 The real issue is, should babies be murdered or not?

00:14:40.000 Of course, that's no.

00:14:41.280 So we fight against that, right?

00:14:43.060 And as we've mentioned before, what they're pushing, really, out of socialism and all these things, isn't a bit of an injustice anyways.

00:14:50.780 So really, they are apathetic towards a real injustice, and then they are promoting an injustice, which is, you know, in many ways showing that when it comes to the issue, oftentimes they're not looking at it from a biblical point of view.

00:15:04.160 They're looking at it from a very man's point of view, which is why they're not addressing the abortion issue very clearly.

00:15:09.420 And then, you know, in the article you mentioned, to kind of get back to that, I know I'll move away from that a little bit.

00:15:15.580 One of the things I say, my main argument in the article is this.

00:15:19.120 Of course, the pro-life movement is good or is helping mothers.

00:15:22.600 And my two main points for that is simply this.

00:15:25.380 One, the best thing you can do for a mother is to not kill her baby.

00:15:30.320 That's as simple as that.

00:15:31.940 The best you can do for a mother, even if you're not doing everything the pro-life movement does,

00:15:36.060 If all you do is to not kill her baby, right, and to help the baby, you are doing the best you can for a mother.

00:15:44.300 As I said in the article, a mother, to define the word mother, you know, it's weird to define it, but these days, you know, you kind of have to.

00:15:52.340 It's simply, of course, a woman with a baby.

00:15:58.240 So the best you can do for the woman with the baby is to keep her with her baby, is to save her baby, right?

00:16:04.320 And then the second point is, well, the abortion, I mean, the pro-life movement is extraordinarily helping moms beyond saving their babies.

00:16:13.260 We are, I say we because I'm part of the pro-life movement, and we've been giving women resources.

00:16:19.540 We have the crisis printing centers across the U.S. and Canada.

00:16:24.300 We outnumber Planned Parenthood by four to one, and we're growing in terms of this number of places out there to help women with counseling, with protection from abusive spouses, with financial help, and a number of different ways to help them.

00:16:41.400 We are doing these things.

00:16:42.760 So the idea that we're not helping moms is ridiculous, right?

00:16:45.280 I mentioned in the article that there is a so-called pro-life group, and I will mention them.

00:16:49.760 They're called the And Campaign, and they basically are, they say they support moms.

00:16:55.200 Basically, they say that they're from womb to tomb.

00:16:57.640 And they have an ad where they say that the pro-choice movement ignores the baby but helps the mom, is what they said.

00:17:05.700 And it's supposed to be a Christian pro-life group.

00:17:08.080 And then they say that, but the pro-life movement ignores the mom and helps the baby.

00:17:14.160 I'm thinking, what?

00:17:15.640 I mean, that's so wrong on so many levels.

00:17:17.500 But especially the idea that the pro-choice movement helps the mom by killing their baby, how are you helping them, right?

00:17:24.740 But these things are happening within the church.

00:17:27.460 These kind of organizations are rising up within the church, and it's really saddening to me because it threatens the pro-life movement, or at least Christians who support bills that will end abortion.

00:17:39.640 And it really concerns me that, unfortunately, Russell Moore and a lot of these other evangelicals are starting to embrace these things.

00:17:45.140 Right, yeah, no, I completely agree.

00:17:46.900 I was thinking about, you know, like the ERLC, and this will kind of, you know, take us a little

00:17:51.020 bit into the, you know, the topic of abolitionism versus incrementalism, but the ERLC, you know,

00:17:57.940 the ethics commission of the Southern Baptist Commission, the ethics wing that used to be

00:18:04.580 headed up by Russell Moore, but now has a new head. I forget his name. Do you know his name?

00:18:08.760 The ERLC guy? No. Yeah. So anyways, but they, they recently came out and completely gutted

00:18:14.500 uh, while they, you know, supported the gutting of, uh, the bill, um, H HB 813, I think it was,

00:18:21.720 uh, in Louisiana, it was an abolition, uh, abolitionist bill that was seeking to have

00:18:27.500 equal, equal protection for the unborn. And, you know, I, I, I think the argument can be made like

00:18:33.100 this because some people, they're just like, well, I, we don't want to punish mothers. And it's like,

00:18:36.740 okay, well then you don't want to save babies. And, and I hate, I hate to do that, but it really

00:18:41.040 is that simple. Um, you know, it's, it's equal penalties. And when I say equal, what I'm talking

00:18:45.920 about is, um, what, what penalty would there be for a mother who takes her one-year-old son

00:18:51.200 to a hit man, physically restrains him, holds him down, pays that man to shoot her one-year-old son

00:18:59.420 in the head? Like what, what would the penalty be? Whatever that penalty is, um, if that same

00:19:06.920 penalty, equal penalty is not applied. This is my position and feel free to push back here in a

00:19:11.360 second. But if that same penalty is not applied, then I would say without equal penalties, you

00:19:16.120 don't have equal protection. Without equal protection, you don't have equal value. Equal

00:19:20.740 value in terms of sanctity of life. And without equal value, you are saying that the unborn child,

00:19:26.060 that this is an entire class of human beings that are subhuman. They're somehow less than human.

00:19:31.360 And theologically, if we even get into theological terms, then it says that in terms of the

00:19:35.540 incarnation, right? We say that Jesus was fully God and fully man, but ultimately what we're

00:19:40.540 actually saying is that there was a time where Jesus was fully God and partially man, namely

00:19:48.020 when he was in his mother's womb. But we would say that no, biblically speaking, that the Holy

00:19:52.700 Spirit brooded, just like he hovered above the waters in the creation, he brooded above Mary.

00:19:58.340 She conceived by the Holy Spirit. And at the point of conception, the God man, or the son of God,

00:20:05.100 the second member of the Trinity, who was fully God, remained fully God and added to himself

00:20:09.660 a second full nature, namely full humanity. So at the moment of incarnation, and I would argue that

00:20:16.000 being at the moment of conception by the Holy Spirit, Jesus, the second member of the Trinity,

00:20:21.600 fully God, took upon himself a full second nature, namely the fully human nature. And so there's all

00:20:29.320 kinds of theological problems. But my point is, it's not that I want a bunch of mothers to get

00:20:36.200 the death penalty. I think of, you know, like even in the Old Testament, it's like if a son

00:20:41.840 or a child is rebellious towards their parents, stone them, right? And you read that and you're

00:20:48.080 like, that's insane. God was so harsh. But then if you look at like some of the historical

00:20:53.780 documents outside of the scripture that talk about like, there's not one instance of anyone

00:21:00.840 ever being stoned. And I don't think it's just because Israel compromised. Severe, swift, when

00:21:09.700 justice is swift, when it's proportional, life for life, tooth for tooth, eye for eye. So when

00:21:14.700 it's proportional, when it's swift, when it's just, when it's unbiased, right? When it's

00:21:20.720 impartial, when it's just. Justice, it's not just like, oh, now all these mothers are getting the

00:21:26.300 death penalty. No, now all these mothers are choosing to keep their babies. It's the second

00:21:32.620 use of the law. It's the law working as a restraining grace to hold back. It's powerless

00:21:39.700 to change the heart of man. We need the gospel for that. But the law of God, as it's executed,

00:21:44.720 legislated and executed by societies in the civil magistrate, it does have a common grace function,

00:21:50.140 not just for the believer but the unbeliever to hold back outward manifestations of evil

00:21:55.140 and that's a blessing to societies do you have any thoughts about that equal penalties equal

00:22:00.640 protection that is beautifully said um as you mentioned earlier uh or you indicated i am not

00:22:07.000 an abolitionist at least in the way that many abolitionists would define the type of abolitionist

00:22:10.280 um and what i'm going to say will offend a lot of my pro-life colleagues um but if when pro-life

00:22:17.140 people say that women who get abortion should not be punished for that, they are completely

00:22:24.940 unbiblical. And it goes against the statement of being pro-life. I'm pro-life, but more importantly,

00:22:30.580 I'm a Christian. I believe what the Bible says, that if you kill a person, if you murder a child,

00:22:36.780 if you murder anyone, you should be punished for that. And as you said, indeed, if you do not put

00:22:42.480 of value on that life by punishing the offended by punishing the murderer then that betrays your

00:22:48.400 entire your entire basis for being so-called pro-life so i completely agree with you and

00:22:53.080 you know as you're speaking i know that many people including pro-life people would say that

00:22:55.700 well that won't really be strained people that's that concern you know of course some people will

00:23:01.200 still get abortion right we know that you know we even states who still have the definite side

00:23:05.940 of death penalty still get people who commit murder that's true um it's 16 000 just to put

00:23:12.100 number on that 16 000 annual homicides in america versus a million abortions yeah exactly it's so

00:23:21.380 it still happens but that's quite a difference yeah what i was going to say is i think you also

00:23:26.160 indicated this we know that the law of god restrains people right doesn't restrain every

00:23:33.340 single person but it does restrain people this is biblical so then why would we believe that

00:23:37.360 laws that reflect the law of god wouldn't restrain people if we say that it wouldn't we're saying

00:23:41.800 the law of god does not exchange people at all and of course that would then be us for talking

00:23:46.360 the word of god so i completely agree with you um you've said it better than i can you know so

00:23:52.120 it concerns me when um again a lot of my pro-life colleagues and i've had talks with them i'm like

00:23:56.840 guys no i now of course with that being said i think that what isn't said a lot in these in this

00:24:03.880 debate about whether moms should be punished when they get if they get abortions um or if they have

00:24:08.440 have abortions, is that there are different degrees, there are different charges, right,

00:24:13.460 for murder. There is manslaughter. There is first degree, second degree. And I think we need to

00:24:18.300 mention that when it comes to the abortion issue, because some women might be coerced, of course,

00:24:22.940 into getting abortions, right? Some women might, you know, there's some women who might, who just

00:24:27.600 have, you know, premeditated, they want to kill their babies. I have no problem with giving first

00:24:33.120 degree. But there's some, there's some people out there, this is where it might be difficult in

00:24:37.300 terms of how do we figure out what's first degree what's second degree what's manslaughter but

00:24:41.720 there are some women who are guilty of getting the abortion but we also have different degrees

00:24:47.920 as well as to what are the you're right and and just for the record that that bill in louisiana

00:24:53.240 that was put forward by by abolition abolitionists um did have a provision for that um so they even

00:24:59.800 as an abolitionist recognize okay but like there's there there is a difference right so like um to

00:25:05.460 reverse the roles a little bit. So like, you know, I gave the analogy of the illustration of

00:25:10.100 a mother bringing her one-year-old child to a hitman and holding them down. The reason why I

00:25:14.760 use that language of holding them down, that it's like, well, yeah, but a mom doesn't do that when

00:25:17.840 she, you know, has an abortion. No, she does. She's physically bringing the child and holding

00:25:23.360 it down by virtue of the child having nowhere to go and being inside of her. Whatever she's doing

00:25:28.180 with her body is, that is restraining the child, holding the child down by virtue of her restraining

00:25:34.840 herself and lying down in that chair and making the child available for a hitman. And so I would

00:25:40.900 change, you know, to add an extra dynamic in this hypothetical scenario for the sake of

00:25:45.520 illustration. Let's say there's a third party, you know, a mom is bringing a child, but, you know,

00:25:53.000 and she's being used kind of as a kind, trustworthy, credible voice for the child to get

00:25:59.040 the child there, right? Like, come on, sweetie, it's okay, you can trust me. And she's kind of,

00:26:03.820 you know you can tell she's crying she's distraught and and behind her little does the child know but

00:26:08.960 dad is there with a gun to the back of mom's head saying tell the child to come right that would be

00:26:13.980 and that mom would be less culpable uh significantly less culpable and and so to have um those kinds of

00:26:21.040 clauses in a bill um i i think is just and and the abolitionists that i know is that yeah that yeah

00:26:27.240 that we're not we recognize that there are these kinds of things so you know and there's of course

00:26:32.880 i'll probably mispronounce it but ectoptic pregnancies is that how you say it ectopic yeah

00:26:38.880 yeah when you know in the in the fallopian tube and the in the egg doesn't doesn't get implanted

00:26:43.760 correctly and those kinds of uh where the the life of the mother is in jeopardy and and even then it's

00:26:48.800 like oh well why do you always save the life of the mother and don't choose the life of the baby

00:26:52.160 well in an ectoptic pregnancy saving the life of the baby is not an option the bit that's that's

00:26:57.200 where the baby is is so underdeveloped that's just a usually a matter of just a few weeks

00:27:01.720 um you know and so so in that scenario it's um it's not like oh choose the baby or the mom

00:27:07.160 it's um it's the baby is not going to live the baby can't live and so it's just do we want the

00:27:13.660 mom to go down with the ship to die with the baby is it two deaths or one right so so there are

00:27:18.700 exceptions you know but um but i i just feel like the except when we major on the minor and we minor

00:27:24.840 on the major right when the footnote becomes the headline and i feel like that's what what

00:27:29.340 Democrats of all, you know, I mean, we went from safe, legal, and rare, you know, and then now

00:27:36.520 it's like shouting your abortion, like getting a cake to celebrate your abortion and throwing a

00:27:41.600 party. And then the saddest part about it is pro-life groups and even evangelical professing

00:27:47.340 Christians, maybe they're regenerate and just absolutely in sin and God's gonna, you know,

00:27:52.080 cause them to repent, or they're just Christians in name, you know, and they're actually false

00:27:55.920 converts either way the point is um the the rhetoric is getting picked up and it just

00:28:01.420 it just feels like smoke and mirrors it's just look over here but look over here but look over

00:28:06.260 here and it's always the emphasis going on on the 0.0001 you know it's like the transgender issue

00:28:13.720 it's like well some people are born with both reproductive organs and and so okay so we're

00:28:18.100 going to make a law for the public for point zero you know it's just i i just don't get that

00:28:24.560 yeah yeah i i completely agree with you um and you know i'm glad you even mentioned

00:28:29.120 the topic pregnancies or the issue when it comes to saving a mom's life and um you know

00:28:35.740 there's there's something that i always have to check out it's called the um the dublin

00:28:40.580 declaration it's from a group of a thousand medical professionals who said that there is

00:28:44.180 never ever ever a justifiable reason to kill the mom sorry to kill the baby to save to save the mom

00:28:51.060 never usually um besides the type of pregnancies which is not an abortion whatsoever as you've

00:28:55.860 suggested but uh when it comes to um a pregnancy harming the the mother's uh life it's usually

00:29:04.180 it's almost always in the late term uh stage and by that point the baby is viable um so then you

00:29:11.860 can have an immediate uh surgery to save the baby and the mom a cesarean yeah a c-section because

00:29:18.940 what she needs she doesn't need her baby to die for her life to be saved she needs her baby to be

00:29:23.780 delivered that's what she needs exactly and then late term late term uh abortions not only do they

00:29:31.520 kill um the baby they actually threaten the women significantly more where with with c-sections both

00:29:39.160 babies both persons can live great point all right let me let me read a quote from from your article

00:29:46.300 and and feed it to you because i think it'll jog you know for both of us you know more thoughts but

00:29:50.960 i thought this was really great and so i think if nothing else it's just worth saying give you some

00:29:54.400 credit for uh so this is part of what you wrote um in the article that we're referencing you said

00:29:58.720 as for the ridiculous claim that the pro-life movement needs to embrace essentially leftist

00:30:03.920 or socialist causes in order to prove we're authentically pro-life? No. We're anti-abortion

00:30:11.340 because we're anti-murder. We're not ashamed of that. Besides, leftist and socialist history is

00:30:17.620 tied to murder and death. Leftism and socialism are not pro-life. They promise life, but they

00:30:26.180 deliver death. Could you talk about that a little bit? Yeah. You know, one of the things that,

00:30:32.920 as i said before it's very very frustrating with critical race theory and all these these um leftist

00:30:39.120 and socialist ideas out there they claim that they are really pro-life when they're they're not

00:30:44.640 there isn't a single part of the world where these ideas socialist communism essentially or

00:30:50.240 different versions of that have been implemented where they have produced uh life they always end

00:30:55.280 in murder and death and you know i mentioned the article too that when it when it comes to the

00:31:00.000 states. So a lot of, you know, people who are supposedly, you know, from womb to tomb, pro-life

00:31:06.000 people, when they say that, well, if we only embrace welfare, if we embrace a lot of the

00:31:10.580 socialist ideas out there, then we'll save more babies, which is a bizarre claim. Nevertheless,

00:31:17.040 when you look at the states in the U.S. with the most socialist bills and most welfare programs or

00:31:24.460 social security, all these things, they're actually the most pro-abortion states in the

00:31:29.740 world with the most uh the highest abortion rates in the country and then i mentioned the article

00:31:34.740 too the top 14 nations in the world with the most uh with the highest abortion rates are are the

00:31:41.340 current or formerly communist or socialist nations so the idea that leftism produces life that it

00:31:48.040 will lead to more pro-life uh pro-life results is ridiculous it does not at all yep yep you're

00:31:54.500 absolutely right. All right. So let's talk a little bit, because we just had a recent, you

00:32:00.140 know, the shooting in Buffalo. And I told you before we started that we, you know, I'd love

00:32:03.460 to talk about this a little bit, because you've done a lot of great work on, especially the issue

00:32:07.920 of CRT, social justice, all, you know, the whole wokeism thing. And so, you know, I'd like to get

00:32:15.960 your hot take, you know, with Buffalo and the president, you know, he didn't have time for

00:32:21.700 Waukesha, but he had time to go to Buffalo, right? You know, and it just, you know, Tucker Carlson is,

00:32:30.280 everyone's attacking him, you know, that, you know, he's a white supremacist. You know, I told

00:32:34.180 you, I thought about titling, you know, this episode, we could title it Two Pervasive Dangers

00:32:39.220 in America, Bigfoot and White Supremacism, you know, but like, what is your take? I mean,

00:32:44.700 obviously, yeah, sure, there are individual racists, and I would say there are black

00:32:49.380 supremacists white supremacists that you know but but the idea that this is this pervasive baked

00:32:54.700 into the fabric of our society uh that it's systemic what help help our listeners with that

00:33:00.720 what are your thoughts um i'm not sure who hates sorry i'm not sure who loves white supremacist

00:33:10.620 shootings more in america white supremacists or the left yeah i i say this because as soon as a

00:33:21.780 white supremacist shooting happens they use that for political gain and that they seem to enjoy

00:33:30.720 that because i'm like aha we got something here that can help us out we have something to use

00:33:35.700 against the capitol carlson use against the uh conservatives or republicans or so-called white

00:33:42.700 evangelicals and you know it's very concerning that people aren't seeing this you know white

00:33:48.260 supremacy is absolutely trending downward in america right it is really rare and yet now i'm

00:33:55.800 not saying i i know people are white supremacists though i know that that still exists however you

00:34:02.100 in the shooting however it is trending downward however black supremacy is growing up people don't

00:34:09.960 like this but it's a fact right that's why you seem as you said you saw in wakusha you had the

00:34:15.360 the black supremacist attack there and no one talked about it in fact there's been several

00:34:20.260 other black supremacist shootings and no one talks about this because the left and many you

00:34:26.140 know many unfortunately a lot of critical race there is within the church many people are not

00:34:31.200 willing to address that all all supremacist ideas are evil because oftentimes they're much more

00:34:37.320 focused on you know political gain or social gain or even church growth you know which is a different

00:34:42.860 kind of thing in that they're they're afraid that if they address these issues that they will lose

00:34:47.680 some black members from the church who might be woke or even white members of the church who might

00:34:52.260 be woke or they believe that by teaching against all uh racist ideas then that they will lose

00:34:58.580 people from coming to the church as well too so you know i i mentioned on social media that i have

00:35:03.560 a friend in uh who's pastoring he's a black pastor who's pastoring right in our neighborhood

00:35:10.020 um and he is against critical race theory and of course he's also against white supremacy

00:35:13.940 and he just asked me today to pray for him because he's really burdened by this he is really just

00:35:19.580 trying to love his neighborhood and love his church very well but the sad thing is a lot of

00:35:25.620 critical race theory thinking a lot of anger towards white christians is in that area and you

00:35:32.560 know in the circle and he's struggling with that because of course as a faithful pastor he's calling

00:35:38.120 people to hate all sin to hate all sinful ideologies and then to love the gospel and to

00:35:43.940 love people of the gospel including white evangelicals i hate using that term but people

00:35:49.020 keep using that term to slander our brothers to slander people who are part of my family

00:35:53.400 you know so anyway i don't know i'm yeah no no that's that's super helpful yeah and and white

00:35:58.500 evangelicals is i mean it's just a descriptive term it's like black evangelicals white evangelicals

00:36:03.100 like you know it's helpful to use and you know i was thinking the other day i thought about tweeting

00:36:06.900 this out and you know i'd probably get some flack for it but i was thinking like you know um you know

00:36:11.760 i remember guys like jamar tisby saying you know i'm i'm afraid or or you know to go and worship

00:36:17.520 in my church today knowing that straight, white, male evangelicals put Trump in office. It was

00:36:28.040 right after the results of the election back in 2016. And I remember guys saying that, that kind

00:36:33.920 of rhetoric of like, I can't even worship with these people anymore. Because speaking of white

00:36:39.900 evangelicals and primarily the cisgendered, straight, white, male evangelicals that put

00:36:45.700 trump into office and i was thinking you know it's like well you know what like you know from

00:36:50.160 time to time i like to think like what am i grateful for today or what am i grateful for

00:36:53.160 this week i was like you know i was thinking just the other day i'm grateful for straight

00:36:57.500 cisgendered white male evangelicals um who put trump into office and it very much looks like

00:37:04.140 roe is going to get overturned isn't that crazy isn't that something right we all said it would

00:37:08.720 never happen that's just stupid you know and here we are but you know not to move away from that

00:37:15.120 I'm very grateful for that too

00:37:16.840 But I thought you were going to say something a lot

00:37:19.040 I wouldn't say harsh

00:37:20.480 More controversial

00:37:21.520 I was going to say you know what

00:37:24.780 He's being honest there

00:37:27.340 He can't worship with Christians

00:37:29.520 That's saying something

00:37:31.420 That's saying something

00:37:32.440 There is a difference

00:37:34.160 When you say you can't worship with frankly God's people

00:37:37.720 I think

00:37:39.020 I'll say it frankly

00:37:40.880 I'm not sure if I can call Dramatis

00:37:43.340 My brother

00:37:43.820 um yeah some of it thinking it's you know so when i read that i'm like well he seems to be thinking

00:37:50.660 exactly what i'm thinking um a lot of those people are thinking the same thing too but going back to

00:37:55.140 what you said about roe you know it's amazing that a lot of the people who you know again they claim

00:38:00.300 they're anti-abortion they claim they're pro-life and look i i'm not saying anyone should be voting

00:38:05.020 for trump that's up to people i think it's very difficult to vote for trump at least in the election

00:38:10.460 in 2016.

00:38:12.220 Clearly, we see his fruits.

00:38:14.400 But it's amazing that people hate him so much

00:38:16.740 they can't even enjoy.

00:38:19.000 And I can't even say they even hate just Trump.

00:38:21.920 As we see with David French,

00:38:23.280 it's not really just Trump.

00:38:24.620 It's really just hating the Republicans,

00:38:26.160 hating conservatives, hating evangelicals,

00:38:28.580 that they can't rejoice in the fact

00:38:31.460 that because people voted for Trump,

00:38:35.260 that now Roe v. Wade is about to be overturned.

00:38:38.460 it is pretty remarkable that people hate him so much

00:38:41.580 and they hate, unfortunately, many other people so much

00:38:44.500 that they can't rejoice in all these things.

00:38:46.320 And all the things that we had said

00:38:48.560 that Trump might be able to do,

00:38:51.100 he's been able to do it and more.

00:38:53.860 And it's pretty remarkable.

00:38:55.960 And yet, again, there's so much hatred for evangelicals

00:38:59.000 that many people are not rejoicing in it.

00:39:01.380 Right, exactly.

00:39:03.100 Nobody's sitting here, neither you or I,

00:39:04.900 and saying, yeah, Trump should be an elder

00:39:06.520 in our local church.

00:39:07.240 I'm not even sitting here saying that trump is uh legitimate or i'm sorry uh regenerate I I don't

00:39:12.940 know I lean towards not I I don't see um just just some of the statements in terms of and not like

00:39:19.760 this oh this is arrogant because I you know I think of the C.S. Lewis quote you know like arrogance

00:39:23.620 is one pride is one of the most difficult sins to see in ourselves but very easy to see in others

00:39:28.720 and perhaps one of the clearest indicators of pride in ourselves is is the degree by which we're

00:39:33.780 bothered when we think we see it in others. I think a lot of people who talk about Trump's

00:39:38.100 arrogance are arrogant people. Because a truly humble person is just not nearly as bothered by

00:39:44.480 the sin of pride as prideful people. It's prideful people who just get all up in a dither about pride.

00:39:50.960 So I don't think all of Trump's rhetoric was prideful. I think some of it was prideful. But

00:39:55.440 the things that I thought was most prideful, I remember somebody asking one time, like,

00:39:58.600 do you repent? I'm going to get it wrong. So I'm paraphrasing. So forgive me if I'm

00:40:03.280 misrepresenting what he said, you know, representing things clearly matters, but he said something

00:40:07.620 along the lines of, well, I just, I just try to do everything right. I'd rather do things right

00:40:11.340 than, than repent, you know? And it's like, well, yeah, me too. I'm sure, you know, but,

00:40:14.760 but the way he said it was kind of like this, this sense of like, I just don't really have that much

00:40:18.680 to repent for. And whereas like, for me, it's like, it takes me like, you know, 30 seconds

00:40:22.840 and I've got a litany of sins that I can confess to the Lord. And so anyways, all that being said,

00:40:28.200 like nobody really knew what we were going to get with Trump. I think voting for Trump in 2020 is

00:40:31.780 very different than voting for him in 2016. But all that said, none of us had a crystal ball back

00:40:37.500 in 2016, except for maybe Wayne Grudem. So I'm a cessationist, but Wayne Grudem, I think one of

00:40:46.220 the strongest arguments for revelation, continued revelation, which Wayne Grudem obviously is a

00:40:54.720 continuationist, is man, he got so much flack from John Piper, from all these different guys,

00:40:59.720 because he said like yeah trump has all these moral issues the guy's been you know like been

00:41:04.460 to the playboy mansion like all like nobody's saying the guy's a saint he's got he's got multiple

00:41:09.080 merit failed marriages all these kinds of things um but he said but this if you look at the supreme

00:41:14.160 court justices and you look at their ages and their tenure and all these kinds of this very

00:41:19.140 well might be um a time where three of them he and he nailed it three of them might get replaced

00:41:24.640 and and and we we trump might give us conservative ones uh hillary will give us

00:41:31.920 incredible the most leftist supreme court justice like they would make uh ruth bader ginsburg look

00:41:38.580 conservative you know and and so that was his whole argument that was his whole argument and

00:41:44.100 he was right he he nailed it and you know i'm like you are most manifestationist but i said

00:41:51.260 after the leak about Roe v. Wade

00:41:53.880 that clearly the election from 2016

00:41:57.560 was one of the most consequential elections

00:42:01.700 in American history.

00:42:03.680 And again, I'm a cessationist,

00:42:07.420 but I look at that

00:42:09.120 and I look at just how things have played out.

00:42:12.340 And that's when you have essentially

00:42:15.000 like a bit of a civil war

00:42:16.780 within the church on this issue.

00:42:19.200 and god seems to have blessed you know trump in a unique way uh again i'm not saying that trump

00:42:28.460 i don't think he's a believer as well i'm not saying that he's even a you know a good man in

00:42:32.580 many ways um i admire some things about him me too me too there are respect respectable qualities

00:42:38.880 about him yeah exactly and yet when you look at some i mean the fact that you know he's just

00:42:45.040 this for four years never mind even eight years for four years he's been able to possibly help

00:42:51.780 the you know the on the abortion issue in a magnificent way i mean just abortion issue

00:42:56.380 many other things but especially that where i i'm part of the pro-life movement i'll be honest

00:43:02.600 with you i was pessimistic i'm like i'm like i don't know if we can we'll be waiting anytime

00:43:07.460 soon and yet it seems to just happen right away it's crazy you know so um yeah sorry go ahead

00:43:14.540 I was just yeah it's crazy here we are like I yeah I thought like it could be another 50 years

00:43:18.780 and here we are exactly all the things that Wayne Gritom said many other guys said it's exactly

00:43:25.100 happened the way they said it might you know and um it's incredible to see and I hope indeed that

00:43:30.640 very soon maybe the next few days or um the next few weeks we hear it has been overturned right by

00:43:36.440 the time this episode airs um it's you know so those of you are listening it's like have they

00:43:41.060 not heard? Are they living under a rock? Well, we record these ahead of time. So, by the time

00:43:45.020 this airs, it very well may be overturned. And you and I both know that, you know, just for the

00:43:50.620 record, that's just, all that does is it really just, and it's still a big deal. So, in one sense,

00:43:57.740 it's nothing. And in another sense, it's everything. And this is what I mean.

00:44:02.900 There's a reason why the Dems are trying to codify, why they tried to codify Roe into law,

00:44:07.360 and they try to do a lot more than just codify row, right?

00:44:10.800 I mean, if there was ever a question of like,

00:44:13.880 can a Christian righteously with a clear conscience

00:44:16.300 in a way that is pleasing to the Lord, vote Democrat?

00:44:21.000 If you ever could have answered that question,

00:44:23.260 yes, in the past,

00:44:25.060 the verdict has come back in officially now.

00:44:28.560 49 out of 50 Democrats voted for abortion

00:44:32.080 in all 50 states for any reason

00:44:34.100 all the way up until that child takes its first breath.

00:44:37.360 That's not just codifying Roe, but that's what, apart from Joe Manchin, that is.

00:44:43.140 So it's like, well, that doesn't represent the Democrat Party.

00:44:45.360 Yes, it does.

00:44:46.580 It's a staple.

00:44:47.960 It's, you know, like absolutely does.

00:44:50.700 And so all that being said, Roe was never law, though.

00:44:53.560 That's my point.

00:44:54.380 There's a reason why they're quickly trying to codify.

00:44:57.920 States have always had the right.

00:44:59.540 And I think conservative states and pro-life organizations, not all of them, but sadly,

00:45:04.400 far too many, um, have used Roe as, as, as, um, as this cover to say like, oh man, yeah,

00:45:13.700 we're trying, you know, we're really trying, but it's, it's, you know, our hands are tied behind

00:45:17.640 our back where it's like legally speaking, constitutionally speaking, like Texas, the

00:45:22.180 state that I'm in could have abolished abortion outright with equal penalties, equal protections

00:45:26.680 in the state of Texas for the last 49 years without Roe being overturned. It's a state by

00:45:32.380 state issue and Roe being overturned, all that is like, well, that just turns it back to the

00:45:38.460 states. Yeah, but the states could have been fighting against Roe from the beginning, in my

00:45:44.340 assessment. But I think what the Lord's doing with Roe being overturned, I think the biggest thing

00:45:48.960 that we're going to see is not really a change in the game legally, but I do think we're seeing a

00:45:54.740 big change in the optics. It's just, it seems like the theme of the Lord and His providence over the

00:46:00.400 last few years is just lifting the veil, lifting the veil. It's not like all of a sudden, you know,

00:46:05.660 we've had a rise of wicked people. But what we have had is a clear perspective on wickedness,

00:46:12.280 right? And it's just like, it's just this lifting that. So all of our institutions have discredited

00:46:16.920 themselves. Well, no, they were probably already corrupt and we just see it a lot clearer.

00:46:20.880 Like we've got a lot better idea about pharmaceutical companies than we had, you know,

00:46:24.720 two years ago. We've got a lot better idea about the government, the legacy media, higher academia,

00:46:29.580 hollywood uh media like every single institution and sadly the evangelical church i would include

00:46:35.860 you know like we it's like the veil has been lifted the light switch has been flipped on

00:46:40.980 and and now the i feel like the lord is doing the same thing on the issue of abortion now we get to

00:46:45.600 see okay so who who really has a spine who who really uh is gonna fight for life who's no more

00:46:52.020 excuses i completely agree with you before i mentioned this it's funny because i think the

00:46:57.640 one event or the one person that i think forced the institutions to reveal themselves as trump

00:47:04.760 exactly and when he came in it seems like things unraveled such a way that a lot of people were

00:47:12.360 forced even within the church to show their faces russle moore became russle moore than he is today

00:47:17.800 in light of trump you're right as well too you know so but about this as you know i'm i'm pro-life

00:47:24.600 and i'm not abolitionist and but yet i will say this real quick real quick because you've said

00:47:29.480 that what would you um where would you say and this is why i'm not an abolitionist just for our

00:47:33.640 listeners just so they understand where's the line that's great yeah so for those who may not i'm

00:47:39.000 i'm sure maybe on your on your show you probably addressed it before but the abolitionists um are

00:47:43.720 known for i'll say primarily two things though i mean it's more than just two things but primarily

00:47:48.760 they're known for being immediatists and then those are known for the gospel-centered movement

00:47:54.440 i completely agree with the gospel-centered movement part i i think that's certainly lacking

00:47:58.840 the pro-life uh movement so i agree with that of course i also agree with uh with you know mothers

00:48:04.600 who kill their babies being punished i agree with that the one thing the main thing i don't agree on

00:48:10.280 is the idea of, you know, gradualism being labeled as either unhelpful or evil.

00:48:18.960 Yeah, and they would.

00:48:20.040 They would call it a compromise.

00:48:21.440 It would be sin.

00:48:22.520 Yeah, I would say no, it's not.

00:48:24.780 Now, it's not because I want, which is actually, I guess, my point.

00:48:29.580 My point, I was going to say about not that Roe v. Wade is over.

00:48:33.120 If many states now do not completely.

00:48:36.580 Now, I'm still okay with a gradual abortion, but I mean, a gradual pro-life bill, necessarily. Now, I'm not saying that, okay, I guess I'll say this. There are some states where I can understand the gradual movement.

00:48:49.500 There are certain states where the states, say like Oklahoma, you know, today, the bill that came out today, or Texas, where they seem to have a strong support for a complete abolition of abortion, a complete end to abortion with no exceptions.

00:49:05.920 If they don't pass that, that is compromise.

00:49:09.340 Because now there's nothing.

00:49:10.640 I would say that Roe v. Wade was an issue because if they were to pass certain bills, as you saw with the Mississippi bill, the Supreme Court could take it and then strike it down.

00:49:20.260 And then I think that would lead to certain legal issues and things like that, which is why I think a lot of states are pushing some of the pro-life bills.

00:49:25.640 But now, when Roe v. Wade is no longer there and you have complete autonomy, at least legally, then, although, again, Roe v. Wade was, of course, a sham.

00:49:35.320 Nevertheless, if the states now do not pass these completely pro-life bills, then they are compromising.

00:49:42.040 But I would say that in the past or before World v. Wade or as it is now, I would say that no, that's not fair.

00:49:48.960 Considering that, look, so I'm in Canada right now.

00:49:51.340 Well, sorry, I'm forgetting where I am.

00:49:53.260 I'm in Ohio right now, but being in Canada for so long, we have absolutely zero laws on abortion.

00:50:01.480 Abortion is completely legal

00:50:03.540 Till

00:50:04.400 Essentially the morning before a baby is born

00:50:07.880 Right

00:50:08.700 And I mention this because

00:50:11.120 Yes, to kill a baby

00:50:14.240 When a baby is a day old

00:50:15.520 Or as a zygote

00:50:16.400 And to kill a baby when they are nine months in the womb

00:50:19.640 Is the exact same thing

00:50:21.060 They're both evil

00:50:21.760 But part of the concerns that I have about abolitionism is this

00:50:25.380 Abolitionists

00:50:27.340 40 years ago in Canada

00:50:28.780 You know, we had an opportunity

00:50:31.080 to end, to have a very strong pro-life bill.

00:50:36.100 At the time, it would have been one of the strongest in the entire world, but they did

00:50:39.820 not want any exceptions whatsoever.

00:50:42.300 And they said, no, we will not.

00:50:45.360 We will not compromise in this way.

00:50:47.380 We want an end to all abortion.

00:50:49.860 I love that.

00:50:51.540 The problem was it was catastrophic when it comes to strategy-wise.

00:50:56.600 And that's why 40 years later, we don't have a bill anymore.

00:50:59.960 We don't, because everyone said, wait a minute, if back then we couldn't even get that pushed, what's the point?

00:51:06.740 And now a lot of conservatives now are running away from this.

00:51:10.360 That's a fair point.

00:51:11.300 So let me play, I was going to say, play the devil's advocate, but instead what I'll do is I'll play the abolitionist.

00:51:16.120 Because for our listeners, that's where I would put myself, and that is more of a recent change for me.

00:51:24.240 But in the providence of God, through guys like Pastor Jeff Durbin and guys like, I even got a guy, Jacob Miller, who is a part of my church that I pastor.

00:51:34.860 And he's had several conversations with me and it's been really, really helpful.

00:51:38.760 And so I'm thinking, you know, what would abolitionists say?

00:51:42.380 And I think part of what they would say is, you know, so you're like, man, there was this strong pro-life bill and the abolitionists ransacked it, right?

00:51:50.900 And, but then I'm thinking, well, the abolitionists in Louisiana would say there was a strong, strong abolitionist bill and the ERLC ransacked it. Like it was going to pass. And it was guys like the ERLC and pro-life organizations writing letters to, to these legislators who are going to be voting on it saying, you know, you can't vote on it like this.

00:52:16.000 And here, here's the amendment. And so then an amendment was proposed and the amendment was, um, but no penalties for the mother. That's not the exact language, but it was a very small amendment, something to the tune of essentially saying, um, all this is great except for, uh, penalties to the mother, which, which was like basically saying, uh, this whole bill is great except, um, none of it.

00:52:36.640 it undercut it was completely and so my point is um it's like all right abolitionists you know

00:52:41.700 ransacked this this good pro-life bill um but from the abolitionist perspective it's like but

00:52:47.520 if all of you guys who say you're pro-life what if you all wrote a bill that said stop killing

00:52:53.960 babies that that's the bill the bill just says stop killing babies and and treat the killing

00:52:59.400 of babies the same way we treat killing any other class of people like then so my point is it's like

00:53:06.100 you need both on the same team because we need votes. We need numbers. We need numbers to win

00:53:12.560 this battle. And it's like the abolitionist, it's like we, you know, this bill will save this many

00:53:18.260 babies, but it won't save all the babies. And the abolitionist is like, no. And that's not

00:53:22.900 completely fair because the abolitionist would say, well, wait, wait a second, wait a second,

00:53:26.440 wait a second. You know, they would have a lot of different reasons. And I think biblical reasons

00:53:30.060 for why they're like, yeah, we cannot put our name on an unjust bill. But so whether the reasoning

00:53:35.600 is biblical or not, whether it's right or not. The point is the abolitionist feels like I can't

00:53:40.120 put my name behind any unjust bill. And then the pro-life guys, I guess my point is, I feel like

00:53:46.840 there's a more defensible position for the abolitionist saying, I can't put my name on a

00:53:52.440 bill that says you have to murder less babies, but you can still murder some babies. But the pro-life,

00:53:58.340 what is their reason for not just putting forward, not just a strong bill, but the strongest bill

00:54:05.160 that saves all the babies and and when you have a bill that's already been put forward and it's

00:54:10.860 already for the first time gotten a hearing louisiana really has stood a viable chance of

00:54:15.520 being the first state to abolish abortion the first state to abol and and it's the erlc with

00:54:21.500 a list of other pro-life organizations writing letters to the legislators saying um as the bill

00:54:27.020 is please don't vote for it because it's it's um it's it's mean to mommies yeah yeah so remember

00:54:33.520 yeah and i agree with a lot of what you said not everything but i do that yeah help me help me out

00:54:39.300 so as i would say as i said earlier i am by no means would i consider um the erlc a strong

00:54:48.320 pro-life group whatsoever right the same way that you would acknowledge that there are some

00:54:54.060 unhelpful abolitionists i would say that there are also some unhelpful pro-life people as well too

00:54:58.320 you know the best way i can say is this way as i said before that i consider myself an

00:55:02.940 abolitionists and frankly um every true pro-life person would say there are also abolitionists in

00:55:09.180 the sense that we want to abolish abortion right the real debate is not if you're truly pro-life

00:55:14.340 you you want to abolish abortion so the question is immediacy or increments exactly but but even

00:55:20.020 then even then i think one of the things that concerns me is that it seems to me that a lot

00:55:25.040 of the abolitionists do not i think they i think for many people given by some of the things they

00:55:31.580 say they do understand our position but they don't i think choose nothing unless not you but many do

00:55:36.600 not choose to listen to what we're really saying so in that bill you mentioned in louisiana i would

00:55:42.140 be with the abolitionist if it would pass if it had a real chance of passing i'm with the

00:55:48.180 abolitionist if it won't pass it depends on what i think might we could do to so basically we said

00:55:54.380 about having the strongest bill possible that's me i want the strongest bill possible but you you

00:56:00.820 want the strongest bill possible that you think will pass so i think that's the rub and that's

00:56:05.860 super helpful because that that makes it really clear i see the distinction you want the strongest

00:56:09.600 bill possible that will save the most babies possible that'll pass and the abolitionist

00:56:15.680 would say um i don't want the strongest bill possible i want uh what i see scripturally to

00:56:21.240 be the most righteous bill possible yeah now whether it'll pass or not and i leave that to

00:56:26.540 sovereignty of god yeah and i'm you know i'm still manning the abolitionists because i feel

00:56:31.420 i'm on that side so yeah you know i think yeah now we would say that we're being righteous soon

00:56:36.140 of course i'm gonna say that we're not we would say that we'd rather say rather save some than

00:56:40.940 save none at all but what i will say i can just say that i see myself as you know not that i'm

00:56:47.740 anything like river force but i would have been with river force in uh what was it a uh i think

00:56:53.340 it was 17 i'm forgetting exactly what year when oberforce passed a bill that didn't ban slavery

00:57:00.100 but banned the slave trade right that's what i would agree with him that i wouldn't say he was

00:57:05.240 unrighteous because what he wanted to do was ban all slavery but he knew that wasn't going to pass

00:57:09.800 so he pushed a bill that would pass the slave trade and then through his efforts in 18 i think

00:57:16.760 35 then he uh along some of his some of his uh followers by that time i think he retired when

00:57:23.240 it passed then in britain they passed the the bill that would ban all slavery now what i would say

00:57:29.000 is this if by that point when all britain was mostly towards the side of anti-slavery and then

00:57:34.560 they simply pushed a anti-slave trade bill that's unrighteous because you can actually do much more

00:57:40.240 right so it depends on the situation is what i would say you know so that's why i say that in

00:57:44.960 canada there was an injustice there with the abolitionists in my view but in certain places

00:57:49.080 where you can actually end abortion you should absolutely be abolitionist gotcha so we so we

00:57:53.920 would disagree but um everything you're saying i really appreciate and i think it's helpful to be

00:57:59.660 able to go back and forth because one thing that i'll you know and i may get some flack for this

00:58:03.400 but um i i've gotten this testimony from abolitionists like jeff durbin like like you

00:58:08.780 know guys that i know um good guys that i feel like are solid and and i don't just agree with

00:58:14.600 their position, but they're solid across the gambit in other areas. And sadly, I don't know

00:58:20.060 what it is, but there's something about the abolitionist position that seems to attract

00:58:24.380 guys who would, they'd be like, yeah, I'm an abolitionist. And it's like, and what church

00:58:28.140 are you a member at? They're not. They're not a member in a local church. They're just,

00:58:33.520 they're always contentious. They're like, well, I can't go to that church. And it's like, well,

00:58:39.980 dude, there's a lot of churches I can't go to either. But I'm saying like, they wouldn't be

00:58:44.080 able to go to my church. They find something wrong with Jeff Durbin's church. They've been

00:58:49.260 wandering, right? And they'll get together maybe on a Sunday at a courthouse and do a protest,

00:58:55.580 but not the ordinary means of grace. It's like, when's the last time you've taken the Lord's

00:59:00.460 Supper rightly administered in the body? And so all that being said, my point is I think

00:59:07.620 it matters theology matters the the life of children matter the law of god and righteousness

00:59:14.120 matters equal weights and scales matter all all this matters um but but sometimes um we don't

00:59:21.300 have the character uh to be able to uh you can't even have a conversation with a guy who disagrees

00:59:26.360 you're just you're so intense about it that um that you know you can't you you couldn't even

00:59:33.820 have like a, just a cordial conversation like you and I, by the grace of God are having,

00:59:38.580 disagreeing on the matter. And so then it leaves a lot of people in the dark because they haven't

00:59:42.300 been able to witness side-by-side comparison of, oh, okay. Oh, okay. All they get is the

00:59:49.460 hour-long podcast from the abolitionists who would never be able to have a conversation with

00:59:53.540 a pro-life guy without the pro-life guy, you know, probably just getting up and walking out of the

00:59:57.680 room, you know, and vice versa. And so all that being said, if we, go ahead, go ahead, sorry.

01:00:03.000 All right. If I could say this, I've learned from guys like you. I've learned from abolitionists. You know, I have critiques against abolitionists. And I also have critiques against my pro-life movement colleagues, where many of them are afraid to say that abortion is murder. They're afraid to say that, you know, women who kill their babies should be punished for that.

01:00:24.120 Right. So I think both sides have some critiques and I'm just trying to take, you know, whatever good arguments that both sides have, I want to take it and I want to live in, I want to then weigh it with the word of God, you know, and I think unfortunately too many people are using the worst examples on both sides to choose where they stand. That's not what I want. I want to be fair to both groups.

01:00:47.100 That's true. Okay. So let's end with this. Just one more thing that I love to pick your brain on. So this is from one of my favorite race hustlers, Gavin Ortland. He says on Twitter, him and Al Sharpton, they're both, you know, two peas in a pod. But Gavin says this, white supremacy, he got a lot of flack. So probably a lot of our listeners will be familiar with this tweet. But white supremacy is evil and it is helpful for us to say so without qualification.

01:01:15.280 Whoa.

01:01:15.680 novel uh this should be uncontroversial within the church but unfortunately that cannot be

01:01:22.180 assumed right now what do you think when you when you hear things like that like who do you know in

01:01:27.840 the evangelical church who is saying yeah i i can't i i i couldn't come out and condemn white

01:01:33.820 supremacy like i'll do it right now white supremacy is an atrocious sin right i do you know anybody

01:01:39.520 who's who's like yeah i can't say that no i don't i don't know what's saying what is he talking

01:01:44.840 about who's he talking about you know you can't be a hero if you don't have villains right right

01:01:51.360 and oftentimes people like him who want to be held as heroes where they can say unlike the

01:01:57.180 basically saying unlike the other people out there unlike the other people look at me oh i'm brave

01:02:03.540 exactly exactly well since unfortunately he wants to be seen as a hero he has to create phantom

01:02:10.920 villains because oh again i'm sure there are white supremacists but i actually replied to that

01:02:17.480 to that i said look i don't i can't think of it i i can't imagine that there is a faithful church

01:02:24.420 member if a truly faithful genuine member of a church who supports white supremacy what are you

01:02:31.860 talking about right there is none because he doesn't just say like um there's white supremacists

01:02:37.660 somewhere out there in the world or even in our nation or even in our government or even among

01:02:43.060 police officers. The quote, what he specifically says is this should be uncontroversial to condemn

01:02:50.380 white supremacy without qualification. This should be uncontroversial within the church,

01:02:55.900 but unfortunately that cannot be assumed right now. So, what he's saying is in this moment,

01:03:00.700 in this cultural moment, we cannot assume within the context of the evangelical church

01:03:07.040 that um that it is uncontroversial to say white supremacy is a sin and i and i just

01:03:13.260 yeah i'm just like man i what world are you living in and i was well i would say the world

01:03:19.500 is living in is a critical race theory world right which assumes that that traditional americanism

01:03:27.180 that frankly traditional evangelism traditional biblical christianity is white supremacist

01:03:34.820 now i'm not saying he is saying that necessarily but he's influenced by that kind of thinking so

01:03:41.180 what if a trump are white supremacists people who are uh pro-life people or abolitionists

01:03:49.420 who are not uh who are not uh from womb to tomb of uh pro-life people who aren't socialists because

01:03:56.600 we are womb to tomb we just think socialism doesn't help people to well we would just say

01:04:01.980 if you want to be womb to tomb really quick, where the tomb stage comes real early, be a

01:04:07.960 socialist. I'm not a socialist. So it's not like we care about the unborn child, but then we don't

01:04:12.160 care about the child when they're born. That's the false dichotomy. But no, we care about the child,

01:04:16.440 not just when they're in the womb, but when they're out of the womb. And that's precisely

01:04:20.060 why we aren't Democrats. It's not just that I'm not a Democrat because of abortion. I'm also not

01:04:25.020 a democrat because i care about born people i because socialism uh socialism is highly effective

01:04:31.540 in in gaining equal outcome in terms of economic effects um but by only reaching the common lowest

01:04:39.520 denominator socialism in other words is highly effective in ensuring that everybody starves

01:04:44.740 everybody's poor so i yeah i'm not a socialist but not because i don't care about life but because i

01:04:50.180 do i do care about life exactly exactly i completely agree with you i grew up in a nation

01:04:55.840 um like many african nations that was very much influenced by communism and socialism

01:05:01.060 not to get too much in you know too much into my personal life uh but uh i would say that so

01:05:06.940 one of the reasons why my father uh left my my mom and me before i was born is because of the

01:05:12.940 consequences of communism ghana and in the late 80s when i was uh born was very poor because of

01:05:20.200 communism and that let now my dad's sin but my dad's sin was uh he was tempted by a sinful

01:05:28.400 ideology communism that just made his own heart even worse and that's that's a that's true and

01:05:36.120 for so many ghanaans and so many africans where life one of the reasons why africa it doesn't get

01:05:41.480 talk about a lot one reason why africa is where it is now it's because of liberation um leaders

01:05:46.900 is because of of communism in africa and we talk about you know woke thinking it's been around for

01:05:55.180 for decades communism socialism all these things have been there for a long time and been destroying

01:06:01.320 people it does not lead to life it leads to death it leads to abortion it leads to mass murdering

01:06:08.440 It leads to, you know, bread lines.

01:06:11.080 It leads to all these things that people claim they're against, but they're not.

01:06:14.420 And again, it should be very, very simple in that the idea that, you know, even now, you know, people can talk about how well, as Tim Keller talked about, he's not quite sure the best way or the Bible says, you know, the best way or the right way to address the abortion issue.

01:06:29.560 Well, I mean, that's going to be a different time.

01:06:32.280 But yet they will never say that about white supremacy.

01:06:35.040 When it comes to white supremacy, they are so direct.

01:06:38.180 Listen, when it comes to abortion and other actual real issues that we're dealing with, it's, well, let's be more nuanced about that.

01:06:47.840 You're absolutely right.

01:06:49.180 Yeah.

01:06:49.480 They're never saying, oh, well, this white supremacist, you know, who was he influenced by?

01:06:55.720 And maybe he wasn't of sound mind.

01:06:57.520 And maybe he didn't really know that, you know, like he hates black people, but maybe he didn't really know that black people are equal in value to white people.

01:07:05.380 you know like but that's exactly the rhetoric is like well she this mother she didn't really know

01:07:09.700 that that baby was actually a baby i mean can you imagine if you apply that same rhetoric to

01:07:14.120 you know the white supremacist he didn't really know that he thought black people were a subclass

01:07:18.240 of humans you know and that's what he thought you know he was in like and so he should he

01:07:22.220 shouldn't have full penalties he should have less penalties or no penalties like we would never in

01:07:27.360 a million years i i that's just been a helpful tool for me like with any kind of like the revoice

01:07:32.300 stuff right you know it's like okay in input um pedophilia input right input some kind of other

01:07:38.380 sin and and and see if you can say it without blushing and if you can't then that's how you

01:07:43.800 know it's there's something fishy go ahead you were going to say something

01:07:47.560 tell you something that uh someone on twitter sent to me and replied to a tweet about white

01:07:54.420 supremacy and black supremacy and this person said that well i don't think black supremacy

01:07:59.440 is very common in america but even if it was i would understand it this portion is this is what

01:08:06.960 we're dealing with here right no one would understand a white supremacist whatsoever

01:08:10.640 right i always i always say that you know uh and actually know some people who struggle with racism

01:08:16.800 who struggle with racism against me right and it's because they were harmed in the past by some black

01:08:22.320 people and now they have a resentment against some black people i i i know that we should not repay

01:08:28.960 evil for evil so i say hey like that's wrong i'm sorry about the evil against you but need to

01:08:34.720 repent as well well the same is true for black supremacists as well too who may who may have

01:08:39.600 been hurt by white people in the past i don't know and then now they want to hurt white people as

01:08:43.840 well too they're both wrong unfortunately some people right now the church cannot say that when

01:08:48.960 wakusha happened when he had all these other attacks from black supremacists they were silent

01:08:53.360 They were not having long Twitter threads by people like Beth Moore or other guys, you know, complaining about how much they hate black supremacy.

01:09:02.280 They were being very quiet.

01:09:03.680 But unfortunately, when the white supremacist attack happened, then they saw an opportunity to frankly signal their virtue for the whole world.

01:09:13.600 You're absolutely right.

01:09:14.760 Well, I feel like this has been really helpful.

01:09:16.960 I hope our listeners enjoyed it.

01:09:18.220 I hope they learned a lot.

01:09:19.000 I feel like I learned.

01:09:20.580 Just a great conversation.

01:09:21.840 I've been wanting to do this with you for a while, probably over a year, but things have

01:09:25.260 just been crazy.

01:09:26.780 It's a crazy world that we're living in, but I feel hopeful.

01:09:29.300 I feel like Aslan is on the move.

01:09:31.300 I feel like God is doing something.

01:09:33.540 And so thanks for coming on the show.

01:09:35.140 Let our listeners know how can they keep up with you?

01:09:37.000 How can they follow you?

01:09:38.480 Yeah.

01:09:38.780 Well, when I'll say this, I now have a favorite abolitionist.

01:09:43.020 All right.

01:09:43.980 I really enjoy this chat.

01:09:45.240 Thank you.

01:09:45.800 And I hope I was coherent.

01:09:47.340 It's been a long day for me and hopefully I was able to make sense.

01:09:50.200 I very much appreciate wisdom from you

01:09:52.660 and hopefully I was helpful

01:09:54.700 to you and to the audience

01:09:56.280 but where they can find me is on

01:09:58.420 social media, they can find

01:10:00.740 me across Instagram, Facebook

01:10:02.880 Twitter as Slow2Write

01:10:04.320 and they can also find me on my blog

01:10:06.360 at Slow2Write.com

01:10:07.980 I think I pulled up Slow2Write

01:10:10.780 your website and it looks like you have a podcast now

01:10:12.740 too, is that right?

01:10:14.400 Not yet, not yet, I'm working

01:10:16.680 on that soon though, there will be a podcast soon

01:10:18.540 Cool.

01:10:19.120 At least on the website, it was me preparing for that eventually.

01:10:22.260 Gotcha.

01:10:22.780 Cool.

01:10:23.080 Well, I'm looking forward to that.

01:10:24.260 All right.

01:10:24.420 Well, thanks again for coming on the show.

01:10:25.660 God bless you.

01:10:26.420 Thanks so much for listening.

01:10:27.380 But real quick, before you go, do us a small favor, take a moment, and leave us a five-star

01:10:32.880 review if you enjoyed the show.

01:10:34.860 This is undoubtedly the best way that you can help us get this biblically faithful content

01:10:40.100 to as many people as possible.

01:10:42.260 Thanks so much.

The NXR Podcast - May 24, 2022

THEOLOGY APPLIED - How The Church Idolizes Women

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