00:05:32.920So if you're in Williamson County or you're in North Austin or you're somewhere nearby and you don't have a church home, if you've got a church home, go there.
00:05:40.580But if you don't have a church home, you're looking for a church that has courage, that
00:05:44.180has biblical fidelity, and you want to hear John Harris preach a dynamite sermon from
00:05:49.320the Word of God, then come and join us again Sunday, March 13th.
00:05:53.380You can find details or directions to join our church that Sunday morning at covenantbible.org.
00:06:00.780Our website for Covenant Bible Church is covenantbible.org.
00:06:05.520Without further ado, let's go ahead and jump into our episode.
00:06:09.060Applying God's Word to every aspect of life.
00:19:45.740And my fear is that Christians have so narrowly defined gentleness that it precludes the0.99
00:19:51.840Son of God, which means we've got a really big problem.0.97
00:19:54.420And I think one of the ways to understand Jesus as being gentle in those seemingly harsh
00:19:59.280moments is just keeping in mind that there's always more than just one other party.
00:20:04.220So what seems like harshness to this party over here is gentleness for the group over here that's being targeted and oppressed by them.0.72
00:20:14.040And so, you know, so like, you know, I preached against transgenderism and homosexuality January 16th.0.66
00:20:21.120I'm not sure that the date that this recording will come out, but January 16th, which for us was last Sunday.0.96
00:20:26.800And it's like, I am being gentle towards Christian parents and Christian pastors in Canada who are under the threat of legal penalty and jail time for offering the message of the gospel and hope because evangelism has effectively been banned in Canada and fast tracked by the conservative members of parliament with a unanimous, not one dissenting vote.
00:20:52.200And so I'm not being harsh. I'm not being cruel. I would see that as I am being gentle. And so I think in the SBC, faithful guys in the past yourself, but then other guys like Mike Stone or guys like Tom Askell, the founders guys, I see those guys as absolutely the most gentle, some of the most gentle men I know.
00:21:11.420And what a gentleman does when someone is being assaulted and under attack and preyed upon, actually P-R-E-Y-E-D, preyed upon to be exploited as simply the virtue signaling of some other party for the sake of power and their own agenda.
00:21:30.460Gentleness to that individual who's being preyed upon may look like harshness towards the actual offender, the actual person attacking.0.50
00:21:39.860but i just thought that like as christians we knew that i thought that we we had that level
00:21:44.940of discernment that level was to me that's like basic anybody who's a pastor should be able to
00:21:49.680know that the first person who runs into your office saying that they were abused saying they
00:21:53.600were mistreated is not necessarily the innocent party and in fact we have two or three right two
00:21:59.460or three come we weigh it and and if it turns out that they're lying then they're not only are they
00:22:04.200not the abused or the victim they're the victimizer they actually are bearing false witness and
00:22:09.080oppressing someone else. And I just thought that was basic biblical justice, basic understanding
00:22:13.820of, and it seems like that is becoming increasingly rare, not just in Christians, not just in the
00:22:20.200nation, but among pastors today. Would you agree with that assessment? Wholeheartedly. I think,
00:22:26.440you know, when Jesus approaches a woman at the well and he deals with her sin, he does that
00:22:33.020because he's demonstrating what gentleness and love looks like.
00:22:36.960But when we become a people who are afraid to speak the truth in love,
00:22:42.020then it's really the most unloving position that we could take.
00:22:45.640And that's what we're seeing with the SBC.
00:22:48.280It's taking that leftward drift to where we're almost handcuffed in such a way
00:22:55.880that we have to virtue signal about every oppressed group and individual.
00:23:00.500And pretty soon it's going to it's going to eventually tank. And that's one of the reasons that we have decided to exit is because at this point, I'm not really confident.
00:23:10.180I know I have, you know, brothers that are staying in the SBC and they want to fight and they want to try to reform and that sort of thing.
00:23:18.820But I'm really not convinced that that the SBC is redeemable at this point.
00:23:23.780I don't think that there's going to be, and I, you know, I really pray that I'm wrong, but I don't really see another conservative resurgence happening.
00:23:33.580Mm hmm. Yeah. Well, so that gets us right into where I want to go with this, which is, you know, you you have said multiple times now I've seen you in a couple of different I saw you, I think, with Justin Peters and I saw the original panel from the conference where you were saying you made the announcement, at least to the larger public context that I was a part of to that you guys were, you know, cutting ties and pulling out of the SBC and all these contexts.
00:23:58.140you know, you've, you've carefully, and I think you're right to do it. I don't think it's, you
00:24:01.520know, I don't think you're just, you know, being mincing words or being overly careful because it
00:24:05.760is a legitimate theological category. And you said, you know, this is it's, it's in the arena
00:24:11.680of, of conscience, right? Christian liberty conscience. However, you and I both know that
00:24:17.060we don't just get to throw something in the, in the area of conscience because
00:24:21.520brothers disagree on it. Um, sometimes, uh, a brother is just wrong. It's like, well, you,
00:24:27.680you think, you know, you're, you're conscious. So maybe your conscience is pricked. Um, that could
00:24:32.160be because it's a matter of conscience. It also could be because your conscience is seared right
00:24:36.280by, by blindness or sin or ignorance or whatever it may be. Um, and so at this point, I, I, I would
00:24:42.580agree with what I've heard you say in other contexts, that this is a legitimate matter of
00:24:46.820conscience, meaning just to be pain, painfully clear, like a brother, like Tom Askell, who I
00:24:51.620know you appreciate. I appreciate a president with, with founders ministries. We've had them
00:24:55.460on the show before a phenomenal man of God. I would not say by any stretch that Tom Askell
00:25:00.040is in sin by, by keeping his church, you know, leading them to remain in the SBC at this time.
00:25:06.620However, there is an objective point. Now it's hard to define, but this is kind of what I want
00:25:11.160to pick your brain about. It's hard to define you and I are, neither of us are saying that the SBC
00:25:16.140is there yet, but there does come a point where if the SBC crosses this line, blank, blank, and
00:25:22.780blank, then you can no longer, it's no longer a matter of conscience. It is objectively compromise
00:25:29.440to be in the SBC. So I worded the question like this. I'll just stick to my script and what I
00:25:36.040wrote here. I said, you said multiple times that a church's decision of whether or not to leave the
00:25:40.360SBC is a matter of conscience. So at what point is a local church required by scripture to leave
00:25:45.640a denomination. It could be the SBC or for guys who aren't a part of that even broader, any
00:25:49.700denomination. What would the SBC have to do in order to force the hand of biblically faithful0.81
00:25:56.200churches to leave it? Personally, I would argue that there are two sides of the equation. I think
00:26:01.040on the one hand, the degree of compromise within the SBC must be carefully considered. On the other
00:26:07.340hand, the degree of contribution from a local church must also be considered. In other words,
00:26:12.380if a local church can participate in an organization such as the SBC with a minimal contribution of
00:26:19.080time and talent, treasure, then that church may be capable of tolerating with a clear conscience
00:26:26.380before the Lord a higher degree of the SBC's compromise. In short, remaining in the SBC for
00:26:32.580the sake of reformation seems to be justifiable, but only if a local church is fighting more than
00:26:39.620it is funding. What do you think about that? What are your thoughts? Yeah, I really like the way
00:26:45.340that you phrased the last part of it, fighting more than funding for those who are staying in
00:26:50.740for reform, like Tom Askell or Tom Buck or whoever it might be. And there are many pastors, by the
00:26:57.400way. So I just want to be clear as I seek to try to unpack this question, this answer, is that when
00:27:04.820I make the statements that I've made, and I certainly did this in the article that I wrote
00:27:09.460as well, I want to be clear that I'm not suggesting that every person that's, you know,
00:27:16.180employed by the SBC at any level, whether that's a state convention level or whether
00:27:21.120it be at a seminary level or whatever, or even those who are staying in the SBC, I'm
00:27:29.120not suggesting that they've all abandoned the faith or that they're all compromisers
00:27:34.860because there are many, many godly men and women who are part of the SBC.
00:27:40.820Unfortunately, there's an elite structure of leadership at the top,
00:27:45.580where there's an awful lot of churches that make up the more than 40,000 churches that represent the SBC,
00:27:52.400that never show up, not even one messenger from their church shows up at the annual meeting every year.
00:28:01.480When you think about more than 40,000 churches who can send upwards of 10 or more messengers from their church to represent their local church to vote during the business sessions, and yet we're doing really good if we can get 7,000 people at a convention.
00:28:20.080And so when you think about how few people actually show up, or even know what's happening, politically speaking, that's a problem. So stewardship is extremely important. But there's a lot of really good churches that have not really come to see the issues, I think.
00:28:41.480I earnestly believe that there are a lot of really godly churches and faithful churches, healthy churches and good pastors that are just disconnected from the SBC.
00:28:51.340And they think that, well, we won the war on inerrancy.
00:28:54.540And so they keep sending money, like 10 percent of their undesignated receipts every year from their church to fund the SBC, all the while not sending a messenger to the annual meeting.
00:29:05.940So they don't know what's being talked about.
00:29:07.980And so, you know, we're living in a time where we really need to reconsider our financial investments.
00:29:15.440We need to think critically about what we're funding.
00:29:18.300So I would say to the to the point of where's the line in the sand for absolute necessity of separation?
00:29:26.300I would say it's the gospel. Whenever the gospel is perverted, then, you know, you don't really have to pray about it anymore.
00:29:34.180You need to get out immediately. But then there's going to be all sorts of other issues like, OK, well, if it's not a perversion of the gospel yet, then how close to that line are we?
00:29:45.340And that's, again, with critical race theory and the whole the whole talk of intersectionality and the way that things are being approached politically makes me extremely nervous.
00:29:57.420And I don't see any, any way forward for us. So for us, it was a, it was a conscience issue and
00:30:04.540it was a stewardship issue as you've made clear in the question. And so we really couldn't stay
00:30:10.040in anymore because you see the SBC is a pay to play sort of system. So if you're going to be a
00:30:15.980part of the SBC, you have to, you have to check the box on the Baptist faith and message 2000,
00:30:22.200and you have to give money. And for us, we came to a place where we said, we don't want to give
00:30:27.480one more dollar to the SBC. And so in order to stay in and, and fight and to, to seek reform,
00:30:36.560we would have to continue to fund the SBC at some level. Now, many years ago, we backed way back on
00:30:42.680giving to the SBC. So we were only giving to mission causes. Anyway, we, we had completely
00:30:48.880dropped off cooperative CP gifts and all of that was just completely gone. So to cooperate
00:30:56.840as a church was now not a possibility for us any longer. So with that said, it was at that point
00:31:06.520where we said we really need to separate and we don't need to be a part of this anymore. We need
00:31:11.780to go on and do gospel ministry elsewhere. And at some point, you know, I'll stop talking about
00:31:18.200the SBC, except I'll point back and make comments occasionally, but it's not my job. I don't feel
00:31:23.820like I have to, for the rest of my life, throw rocks at the SBC. I will pray for these brothers.
00:31:30.600I will pray for these churches. I will pray for leaders to repent, but I'm not going to continue
00:31:36.100to just get up every day and think I've got to go on some, you know, polemics search to try to
00:31:42.720figure out a way to expose the SBC. I think the SBC has exposed itself, unfortunately.
00:31:48.200unfortunately um practical question for a moment what is the minimum requirement so let's say
00:31:54.680you know because i really think that that principle of you know um well i want to i want to
00:31:59.600seek reformation right i want to reform that i mean this is tale as old as time whether it's you
00:32:04.220know i'm going to stay in england you know with william laud and you know his high high church
00:32:09.720and persecution of you know puritan pastors or well i'm going to go to the new world you know
00:32:14.240For me, at the end of 2020, me and my family, we left California.
00:32:18.300I was pastoring a church there, had been there for several years.
00:32:21.800My wife's family and my family were both in Texas.
00:32:24.300And so we were just, after 2020, we were done.
00:32:39.760And so that question of everybody who stayed behind, none of them stayed behind because
00:32:43.740they were like, we love Gavin Newsom and, you know, and we think that he's a brilliant and
00:32:49.000wonderful, you know, politician. It was always, we're staying behind to fight. And that was,
00:32:53.480that's what it always, so whether it's a denomination or whether it's, you know,
00:32:56.980where you live, you know, this, the whole category of fleeing, right? Like Jesus gives a provision
00:33:04.260for fleeing, like, and not just a provision, but in some cases, depending, you know, how you apply
00:33:09.820this a command, right? If a town does not receive you, then shake the dust off your feet. And so
00:33:14.820there is a Christian category for fleeing and that doesn't make you a quitter. It doesn't make you a
00:33:18.880coward. And there also is a biblical category for fighting. And so there's fleeing and fighting and
00:33:26.500it's tough to know what you should do. And I think that's why the safest thing in most of
00:33:32.360these cases is to put it under the larger banner of a matter of conscience. But with California,
00:33:37.220I remember thinking like, you know, a lot of Christians are like, well, we're staying to fight.
00:33:40.840And my question is, you know, in real terms, what percentage of your income do you give to the church and what percentage goes to state taxes?
00:33:49.020You know, what percentage of, you know, and you just look at it, all these things.
00:33:52.020And that's not to say no Christian should live in California, that there's not any kind of exception clause.
00:33:56.960I mean, the military, for goodness sake, I think it's right.
00:34:05.960I think there are exception clauses, but I think sometimes we kid ourselves. We think we're doing
00:34:11.260more fighting. Basically, we pump up our numbers, our stats in the fighting category. And I think
00:34:20.080we're not willing to take a hard look at our stats in the funding category. I think this principle
00:34:25.760applies to multiple things, but I think a lot of us, whether Amazon, man, I feel like, I'm like,
00:34:30.220i think a package from amazon is on my doorstep every single day and i'm like i'm like maybe i
00:34:36.780should try a little bit harder you know it's so easy it's just so darn easy to you know to use
00:34:41.580amazon but it's like but i know they're giving money to blm they're doing this like should i be
00:34:46.440using giving this much of my money to amazon so whether it's a domination denomination or
00:34:52.100corporations that we you know that we patron patron or whether it's what state we live in or
00:34:56.340all these different things, I think asking some serious questions about, am I really fighting?
00:35:01.320How am I fighting? Can I, can I stand before God and give an answer, right? Give an account for
00:35:06.400the ways that I'm fighting against wickedness in this state, in this organization, in this
00:35:10.560denomination, whatever it might be. And then also looking at, and, and in, in my choice to stay and
00:35:17.280fight, how hard am I really fighting? And then also having, and it hurts, but having that honest
00:35:23.040looked at, but by staying to fight, how much am I, not wanting to, but how much am I forced to fund
00:35:30.740simply by my decision to stay and fight? And I think that number, however, whatever metrics are
00:35:37.600used to determine the funding amount, I think sometimes it can be surprising and painful to
00:35:44.940realize, oh man, I thought I was fighting. I'm having serious conversations. I'm taking a stand
00:35:50.280on certain issues. But, but, but really my fighting is actually, if I'm really honest,
00:35:56.060it's doing this much, but my funding is just to this Leviathan, this Bohemian, you know,
00:36:02.680just, just thousands of dollars, just, you know, going and going and going and going.
00:36:07.080And so, so even though I'm fighting, if I could really, if I could give truth serum to the people
00:36:11.700at the top, um, Hey, would you want me to leave or stay? They're like, Oh, Oh, you can stay and
00:36:15.880fight. That's cute. Yeah. We see you on Facebook and the comments that you make and stuff, but we
00:36:20.680also, we appreciate the thousands of dollars that your church gave last year. Exactly. Yeah. So it's
00:36:27.080exactly. Yeah. And when I think of that, I also have to ask myself this honest question as it
00:36:33.040pertains to stewardship, stewardship of time. Like, you know, it's one thing to fight, you know,
00:36:39.320the fight of faith, right. And to go out into this dark world and to preach the gospel and to
00:36:45.240push back against the, the, the, the darkness of this culture, the depravity that, you know,
00:36:50.500that surrounds us, if you will. But it's another thing to get up every day and to have to fight
00:36:55.800other Christians, other churches. And that's certainly not something that I think is a good0.97
00:37:02.580use of our time. So, you know, finding people to network with under this big, massive tent,
00:37:10.260It's like going to a really large family reunion and trying to figure out what table you're going to be welcome to sit at for lunch and coming to a point where you don't really see that there's a good option anymore.
00:37:26.420And so it's just it becomes far more difficult.
00:37:29.020So when I'm thinking of fighting the fight of faith and I'm thinking of planting churches and doing the work of ministry, I want to figure out ways to spend my time and I have, you know, limited time every day.
00:37:43.780You know, we're so limited. And so how am I going to spend those hours? Will I spend those hours trying to figure out ways to, you know, battle some, you know, polemics issue within the SBC? Or can I work to plant a church in a, you know, specific state where, you know, there's far more darkness than there is light through a network like G3, for instance?
00:38:08.040right yeah no that's that's really good and i think that's kind of that's the catch-22 is if
00:38:14.420you do it yourself right a local church i mean and at the end of the day the sbc doesn't plant
00:38:18.640churches churches plant churches absolutely you know so the sbc can help to train and they can
00:38:22.920help to fund and those kind of things but churches plant churches and if you're pastoring a small
00:38:27.380church with limited amount of people limited amount of funds um then and the difficulty in
00:38:32.380doing it alone doing it yourself is well the limit on resources the benefit that's the con the pro
00:38:38.500is um you have pretty much you know a hundred percent influence and say in who the that church
00:38:46.580planner is going to be who is you know who those elders are going to be what kind of church what
00:38:50.260kind of theology what what you're actually planting so i think that's kind of that's the
00:38:54.660decision you know is all right smaller it's like you know we don't have like as rod martin always
00:38:59.900says, you know, like the widow's, you know, the widow's mites, you got all these widow's mites
00:39:03.120and yeah, that is a massive benefit. And I really liked Rob Martin and we've had him on the show
00:39:06.640too. Um, I love talking about just about like, Oh, when are we going to Mars? I like that kind
00:39:13.280of stuff. Um, but, but you know, he's, he always talks about the widow's mites and you pull it
00:39:17.820all together and there's so much and you can just, you can do so much and that's true, but the bigger
00:39:21.760something gets, it's like the more resources it has. Um, but there's also, uh, the, the less
00:39:27.540influence any one person has over it and it's just and it's hard it's just it's difficult to
00:39:32.980keep a big old behemoth thing faithful and it is and focused you know and you know that idea of
00:39:39.280cooperation is a really has been historically a really strong point of the sbc because you can
00:39:45.240pull all of this money together but like you said you know when you have a small group of elites at
00:39:50.060the top rung of the ladder they're making all the decisions on where they're planting churches how
00:39:54.800they're planting churches. Yes, we vote on a few things, but at the end of the day, you just keep
00:40:00.320shoveling the money in the front door and they're going to keep doing their thing. Like with, you
00:40:05.500know, as far as a small independent church. Yeah, you're right. I mean, we actually need to partner
00:40:11.520with other local churches. I think that that's a healthy thing. And that's why we are doing what
00:40:16.160we're doing with the G3 church network. And then as we publish a project, like if we publish a
00:40:22.560project from our local church churches plant churches so if we decide okay we're going to
00:40:27.440enter into this church planting project and we publish that within the uh within the g3 church
00:40:32.900network it doesn't mean that every single church within the network has to actually partner with us
00:40:39.420for that project but five or six may that are close by that can maybe have some some uh some
00:40:47.400influence in terms of proximity, could send elders from their church to help engage in the
00:40:53.300oversight of the initial launch and partner with us on, you know, rotation of preaching
00:40:59.960responsibilities and funding of rental of a facility and all sorts of things, right? So we're
00:41:06.900not going to have to do this all alone because we might have, you know, out of a network of 100 or
00:41:12.580200 churches right now we're about 100 churches we might have five or six churches that say yeah
00:41:18.120count me in on this and we're going to do this so to cooperate with another church is the extremely
00:41:23.660healthy benefit but the way that the sbc has gone with this massive machine it's almost as if you
00:41:32.960know you don't really even know what's going on you're just giving them money and trusting they're
00:41:36.760doing it properly right that's the difficulty yeah the lack of accountability that's what you
00:41:41.480You know, it's, you know, again, the similarity is uncanny, but that's how people feel, you know, with the nation.
00:41:47.860It's like, who's Dr. Fauci accountable to $420,000 a year salary, you know, the unelected, most powerful official in the world.
00:41:56.520And so accountability is incredibly important.
00:41:59.240So that gets into the whole G3 thing, G3 network thing.
00:42:02.940So let me just go ahead and ask you about that.
00:42:05.220So G3, it appears to be creating its own network of like-minded churches.
00:42:09.360is, this is an honorable, much needed endeavor. My question is this, does G3 have, well, before I
00:42:16.120get to the specific thing about, we'll get there. But first, what would be some distinctives,
00:42:21.760theological distinctives? G3 network, if you're going to be in this network, you're going to be
00:42:25.220a church in this network, you are blank. What do you like? Yeah. So number one, we're Baptist.
00:42:31.200Number two, we hold to, with some degree of and measure of even qualifications, we hold to the 1689 Baptist Confession.
00:42:42.720So with that said, what we would allow is say a church is led by a group of pastors and the pastors say we can actually link arms and actually affirm the 1689.
00:42:58.140but our whole church can't yet, in fact, we don't have the 1689 as our official confession within
00:43:06.780our own local church, then we would still allow that church to be a part of this network because
00:43:11.680we believe that the pastors within this network and the churches can associate together so long
00:43:18.220as the leadership is aligned properly. Furthermore, we think that a good confession
00:43:24.320like the 1689, for instance, provides clear and valid transparency as to who we are, where we
00:43:32.740stand. It's like a flag or a pole, if you will, a flagpole in the ground. It's waving a flag that
00:43:39.360says this is who we are. And then we also recognize that there are some people, some churches, some
00:43:45.260pastors that would say, well, we're not exactly on board with, say, the article on the Sabbath or
00:43:53.060you know that the the pope is the antichrist we want to sort of adjust and qualify on some things
00:43:59.020and so we allow for people in churches to qualify on some things but we just need to make sure that
00:44:04.740we're not too far apart from one another that we would not be able to be like-minded and be in
00:44:10.440good fellowship and partner together in projects so we do believe that you know holding to a
00:44:16.040confessional statement like the 1689 is extremely important yeah that's good so baptist and
00:44:22.100confessionally Baptist, um, which is reformed Baptist, you know, I, I have to tell people all
00:44:27.500the time there's Calvinistic Baptist who I appreciate. Um, and then there are reformed
00:44:32.080Baptist. And so I, you know, I, for years and years, you know, my listeners know this, but
00:44:36.860for years and years, you know, I did theology like most guys do when they get into ministry,
00:44:41.540I did it all the cart and, uh, it's just, it's exhausting, you know? And I felt like I was
00:44:47.240getting near the end of the buffet line, you know, like at a Luby's or something. I had my tray,
00:44:50.980you know, two or three plates and I had all these different things. And then I'm looking over and
00:44:54.900I'm like, uh, there's this little chalkboard, you know, sandwich board sign that says the chef
00:44:59.160special. And I realized I've already got like 97% of the things on my tray are part of the chef
00:45:04.740special. So either this 3% where I'm differing with the chef's opinion, um, either I'm just
00:45:10.120nailing it on the buffet line and I just know exactly what's right. And the chef is mistaken,
00:45:14.520or maybe somebody else already did all this, all this work, you know, and, and maybe theology,
00:45:21.540maybe there actually is a systematic and there is a common thread, you know, through the Bible.
00:45:25.920And there is a way of understanding things cohesively, and it's not meant to be done
00:45:29.620all the cart. Maybe, maybe I could have saved myself a lot of time and a lot of effort by just
00:45:34.020taking somebody else's word for it. Not anybody else's, but somebody who's tested and tried and
00:45:39.740true. And so for me, confessionalism was, um, it wasn't binding. It was freeing. It freed me up to
00:45:45.680be able to have a sense of safety and security. Um, and, and to not, uh, not be embarrassed. I
00:45:53.300mean, there were certain moments where it's like, I believe this over here. I believe this over here.
00:45:57.940And then, you know, eventually in some kind of pastoral situation, uh, it gets pointed out to
00:46:03.040me by some member of my church that these two things actually are contradicting. And I'm like,
00:46:07.100oh, no, they are. You're right. And it's like this embarrassing moment. And so, yeah,
00:46:13.100confessionalism, the 1689 was incredibly helpful for me personally and for our church.
00:46:32.680I think it's 32. 32 chapters, covers the Sabbath, covers, you know, the doctrine of the Word,
00:46:37.100doctrine of the trinity but but more than just your basic general statement of faith like the
00:46:41.480baptist faith and message it's it's much more in depth than just that um but it doesn't cover
00:46:47.500everything 1689 doesn't say anything about head coverings that 1689 doesn't say um anything about
00:46:53.440well about kind of the second half of my question here um two kingdom theology is kind of what i
00:46:59.960want to get into the 1689 it addresses a little bit like our you know our influence in the world
00:47:04.240on the pagan culture and those kinds of things, but there's some wiggle room there. And so my
00:47:08.940question is, does G3 have an official position on two kingdom theology? John MacArthur, to throw
00:47:15.800him out there, John MacArthur, love him. I know you love him. He famously and rightly said that
00:47:20.860Christ, not Caesar, is head of the church. Yes and amen. However, I personally would believe
00:47:25.560and hold that Christians should go a little further by insisting that Christ, not Caesar,0.68
00:47:30.020Caesar is also head of the state. I would look at Romans 13. I would say that the state is God's0.65
00:47:35.920deacon, the civil magistrate. He works for God, that Christ is over even the state. Now that
00:47:40.500doesn't mean Christ is head of the state in the same way he's head of the church. He's uniquely
00:47:43.720head of the church in that he died for her. And he nourishes her, mediates the blessings of the
00:47:49.660new covenant by his blood for her. But I do believe that in the authoritative sense, in a governing
00:47:55.320since Christ is head of all things. Thinking of Colossians, thinking of, I believe it's Ephesians
00:47:59.9601.22, that God has set him up as the head of all things to the benefit of the church. So the church
00:48:05.660uniquely benefits by Christ's headship over all things, but he's not only head of the church.
00:48:11.220Uniquely head of the church to benefit the church, but head of all things. So head of the church,
00:48:15.820yes and amen, but also head of the state. So I heartily would affirm a separation of church and
00:48:20.740state, but I believe it's high time for Christians to reject the unbiblical notion of a separation0.84
00:48:26.540of God and state. I think there's a difference between separation of church and state, good,
00:48:31.060separation of God and state, no bueno would be my position. So I think that neutrality is a myth,1.00
00:48:38.240secularism I think is on its last leg. I think it's time to just go ahead and push
00:48:41.940that idol over and be done with it and stop pretending. I think it's either Demos is God,
00:48:48.540You know, the people are God, or God is God.
00:48:52.680You know, it's either man's morality or it's God's morality, God's law.
00:48:56.260And I know that, you know, it can be controversial, but I like the way that guys like Doug Wilson, he said, general equity theonomy, right?
00:49:05.780So, you know, this idea of, and that is in the 1689 Confession, that, you know, as our use of three uses of the law of God.
00:49:13.540Um, but then also, uh, when it comes to civil law, that, um, the moral law is, is eternal,
00:49:19.480eternally binding, including the Sabbath. And so chapter 22 talks about the Sabbath,
00:49:23.660but then with the civil law of God, um, that's, I mean, that's what the apostle Paul uses for me
00:49:28.300and you to get paid by being pastors. You know, the ox, you know, don't muzzle him. And Oh, by the
00:49:33.480way, uh, here's how you can apply that, um, to, to pastors and how the, the one who labors in the
00:49:39.840gospel is worthy of the wages. And so when I look at the law of God and I think, man, it has civil
00:49:45.860application and it's not a one-to-one ratio. It's not like America replaced Israel. We believe that
00:49:51.240the church and replaced isn't always the best word to use, but we believe that Israel blossomed
00:49:56.040into the church and all of ethnic Israel has been invited to join the church. And many have chosen
00:50:01.800to harden their heart and reject, but they've been invited to join the church. But it was all
00:50:05.300building up to the church. America is not the replacement for Israel. The church is. And so0.83
00:50:09.740it's not a one-to-one ratio of looking at the civil law with Israel and then saying America
00:50:14.020should do that. But what I would say is that the civil law, it's a two-step process instead of one.
00:50:18.680You track it back to the moral law of God, the Ten Commandments, and find the general equity,
00:50:23.320God's blueprint. And then you take that and apply it in a culture, place, and time. And I believe
00:50:28.700that all nations should do that. And the church has a role, a prophetic role, to call the civil
00:50:33.600magistrate to do that. And I don't know what theologically, how, what you would refer to that,
00:50:39.880if that's Kuyperian or, but I, I think that's where I'm at. That's where a lot of our listeners
00:50:44.780are at. And I'm curious, what is your position? How, how much involvement should the church have
00:50:50.900in politics? I, you know, John MacArthur has been under fire recently. Ironically, people saying
00:50:55.940that he's theocratic and theonomic. And I'm like watching those, you know, and I'm like laughing
00:51:00.120Cause it's like 52 years of this guy, like he's, I think that I would like him to be
00:51:30.120Well, as far as the network is concerned, we certainly are not going to draw a line in the sand on two kingdom theology.
00:51:37.720We're not going to draw a line in the sand as far as a hard line in the sand on eschatology.
00:51:43.880We would take every church on those issues on a church by church basis.0.84
00:51:49.400And we want to, you know, if we have someone that's just swinging swords and they're just post meal all day long, they're probably not going to fit in too well within the G3 church network.
00:52:02.800However, we just want to be careful not to make that a line of division, because I don't see that, you know, when it comes to a network and, you know, voluntary engagement and involvement in certain projects and things of that nature.
00:52:19.120It's not going to be something that we want to try to separate over.
00:52:23.320We want to try to figure out a way to have a healthy church network that can do these things and do those things well.
00:52:29.700As it pertains to sort of a two kingdom theology, I think a lot of people probably within the G3 church network would probably lean more that direction than they would to more of a, you know, a mono sort of approach on the structure.
00:52:49.120And I think that the reason is because I think that you can avoid two ditches.
00:52:55.380And I think there can be a little bit of an abbreviated aspect of even two kingdom theology and a two kingdom theology approach.
00:53:02.680For instance, if I'm holding more to and I do tend to hold to more of a two kingdom approach, that's not to say that I don't or that I reject that Christ is the head of the state, too.
00:53:17.660I also recognize the fact that, as Luther said, that the devil is God's devil.
00:53:23.500And so we have to sort of think about the way that it's structured.
00:53:28.540So you think about the sphere of the family and the sphere of the church and the sphere of society.
00:53:35.100And then you think about the kingdom aspect, naturally born into the civil kingdom, but I'm born again into God's kingdom.
00:53:44.440now is christ ruling and reigning right now presently from the throne and i believe he
00:53:50.220said that emphatically himself and i think that he is so that's to say that he is absolutely head
00:53:56.760of the church and he is absolutely head of the state at the same time but i think we can run
00:54:04.440into problems when we conflate the two so the ditch on one side would be an over-realized
00:54:10.760eschatology. I want to avoid that ditch. But then I also want to avoid the ditch of some sort of
00:54:17.260escapism approach where, you know, people would say, well, you know, the Christian has no right
00:54:23.200to, to, you know, to speak into the political sphere or to, you know, to hold to one specific
00:54:30.660political party or candidate and that type of thing. And I would just reject that. I think that
00:54:36.260you can still hold to a two kingdom approach or even a modified two kingdom approach and still
00:54:42.900be very vocal and engaged politically but just recognizing ultimately that that christ is is the
00:54:50.560head of the church and and caesar is not and then you know you think about the pulpit you know you
00:54:56.280think about the fact that we need to be looking at the the pulpit as this this launching pad of
00:55:03.380truth. And while the state has been given by Christ the sword, we should never allow for
00:55:12.100Caesar to have our pulpits. But unfortunately, we see that happening. And we see that happening
00:55:18.600even in conservative groups that want to sort of have this political rally and all of this kind of
00:55:25.220stuff. We want to avoid that. So within our own local church here, we're going to try to,
00:55:30.500when we think about the separation of church and state, that's a loaded statement that's
00:55:35.840been abused for so long. And I think the liberals have successfully silenced many a Christian and
00:55:42.480many a church throughout history by that statement. And so I would simply say it like
00:55:48.400this. I think that if you want to talk about separation of church and state, I would say
00:55:52.920that type of ideology is to keep the state out of the church, but not to keep the church out
00:56:00.180of the state right and so that's the way that i would articulate it so in terms of our approach
00:56:06.140we're not going to kick people out because they don't hold to a a specific two kingdom approach
00:56:12.660but we do want to make sure that we're close enough in proximity that we can associate together
00:56:17.820and do missions and church planting together and have good fellowship right now that but i would
00:56:23.360But also, but I would also urge, I would heavily urge my brothers to think earnestly about what it means to take a stand, to speak up, to speak into the political sphere.
00:56:38.140I mean, you look at John the Baptist, for instance, John the Baptist was saying, that's wonderful.
00:56:42.700We've got all these people that are coming out here. They want to be baptized. That's great.
00:56:46.620But now hang on a second. When you go back, make sure you tell Herod that he should not have his brother's wife.0.73
00:56:52.900Amen. So he's speaking into the political sphere. That's right. And I think that we have to recognize that. Amen. Yeah. Amen. Christ, his Christ is king. Christ is king. He wasn't just, you know, he wasn't just, he was born a baby, but he grew up. You know, some Christians still think he's this baby Jesus, you know, but he's, he's, he's a full grown man. He's the God man and he's king and he was born a king.
00:57:20.460And Herod, I feel like Herod in some ways understood and kind of got the birth of Jesus0.58
00:57:28.260better than some Christians in the sense that he was threatened.0.77
00:57:33.420He was like, I need to do something about this.
00:57:36.720And we're so quick to say, well, Jesus, his kingdom isn't of this world, or he didn't
01:03:34.400And we need to be able to speak up to give a defense of our faith.
01:03:40.940We need to be able to speak to the civil sphere.
01:03:44.560We need to be able to speak to the political sphere and say, no, we're not going to obey this because our obligation is to obey God rather than man.
01:03:54.680So we're going to have to be ready to stand when we're called upon.
01:03:58.960And I think right now we're just seeing just sort of the tip of the iceberg, if you will, for what lies ahead.
01:04:05.000As far as my eschatology is concerned, I don't I don't see things getting better before they get really bad before they get suddenly really good.
01:04:15.240So I think that when we think about where we are presently, we need to be prepared to stand.
01:04:22.080And, you know, the trials of the faith, the Lord being ruler over both of these fears that we've been discussing, he will allow us to experience these trials.
01:04:33.660but the trying of our faith will, you know, produce this,
01:04:37.980this patience and this patience ultimately leads us to hope.
01:04:42.520And so we need to be able to, to persevere, to be steadfast,
01:04:46.560immovable in the faith for the glory of God.
01:04:48.620So I want to urge my brothers and sisters in Christ to be thinking critically
01:04:52.280about what we've been talking about for the last few minutes.
01:04:55.480Amen. Well, thank you, Josh, for coming on the show. I really appreciate it.