The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - How To Decide When To Leave The SBC

00:00:00.000 Hi, I'm Pastor Joel Webbin with Right Response Ministries, and you're listening to another

00:00:03.780 episode of Theology Applied. In this episode, I was privileged to have as a special guest,

00:00:09.120 Dr. Josh Bice. He is the president of G3 Ministries, and he's also a senior pastor

00:00:14.740 of his local church in the great state of Georgia. Now, Josh and I talked about his

00:00:20.660 recent decision, he and his elders and his whole congregation. They're a congregational

00:00:24.860 church and the congregation did vote on this matter, they decided to leave the Southern

00:00:30.120 Baptist Convention. Now he's talked about this on several occasions. And so you may have already

00:00:34.680 heard some episode or some podcast where Josh has been interviewed talking about this, but

00:00:39.600 I tried to make this one a little bit unique. So one of the things that we did was kind of

00:00:43.360 press the issue of this category of Christian liberty, this category of conscience, because

00:00:49.420 Josh has used that term multiple times. This was a matter of conscience. You know, some guys may

00:00:53.740 stay in, other guys may get out. So one of the things that I pressed him on in this interview,

00:00:58.140 and he did a great job and was very humble and willing to dialogue about it, was when is it no

00:01:03.380 longer a matter of conscience? At what point is it sin for someone to remain in a denomination

00:01:09.380 that is trending more and more towards unfaithfulness, as he and I would argue the SBC

00:01:16.400 is? So you're in for a real treat. Without further ado, let's go ahead and jump in.

00:01:21.220 Real quick, before we get started, I've got some exciting news to announce.

00:01:25.600 I've got A.D. Robles and John Harris from Conversations That Matter coming out for a

00:01:30.880 whole weekend in the month of March to join up on a Friday.

00:01:35.720 We're going to come in our studio right here, and all three of us are going to record a

00:01:39.900 multiple-part series on some of the subject matter that you guys have requested that the

00:01:45.520 three of us address through our YouTube comments.

00:01:48.060 Some of you have emailed.

00:01:49.320 We're taking that into consideration as well.

00:01:51.220 but we're definitely looking at the YouTube comments.

00:01:53.940 We've asked you guys,

00:01:54.740 hey, what are topics you want us to address?

00:01:57.220 And so the three of us are gonna record for several hours,

00:01:59.980 a multiple part series in our studio

00:02:02.380 right here in the great state of Texas in March.

00:02:05.480 And we're gonna be releasing that content

00:02:07.120 over the coming weeks.

00:02:08.740 Now, here's the other thing.

00:02:09.820 That's on the Friday that they're gonna be in town.

00:02:11.920 But on the Saturday, we're gonna hold a one-day conference.

00:02:15.420 Now, that's gonna be March 12th, Saturday, March 12th.

00:02:19.760 It's gonna be a one-day conference

00:02:21.100 where AD is gonna do a session

00:02:23.200 on practical, obedient defiance,

00:02:26.540 how to resist civil tyranny,

00:02:28.040 how to resist medical tyranny,

00:02:29.600 and how to do this in practical,

00:02:31.480 on-the-ground ways as households,

00:02:34.420 as head of households, husbands, fathers.

00:02:36.600 How do we resist as a family 1.00

00:02:38.660 against the cancel culture

00:02:40.340 and the tyranny and persecution 0.94

00:02:42.440 that's coming to America?

00:02:44.100 That's gonna be AD's session.

00:02:45.700 I'm gonna do a session 0.70

00:02:46.800 called Debunking the Boogeyman of Christian Nationalism. 0.99

00:02:51.100 I'm going to kind of reveal the fallacies of the gospel coalition

00:02:54.440 and all these kinds of things. 1.00

00:02:55.560 Oh, Christian nationalists, the greatest threat to America. 1.00

00:02:58.120 I'm going to show why that's not biblical 0.61

00:02:59.800 and how that's not actually happening.

00:03:01.580 And the irony that if anything, Russell Moore,

00:03:05.000 he's the type who is actually the Christian nationalists

00:03:08.060 in a negative sense.

00:03:08.960 And then John Harris is going to do a session

00:03:10.860 on social justice versus biblical justice.

00:03:13.980 Again, that's social justice and how it's completely opposed,

00:03:17.880 completely opposite to biblical justice.

00:03:21.280 And lastly, the three of us are gonna come up all together

00:03:23.820 and spend a whole hour doing Q&A.

00:03:26.220 We're gonna take live questions from the audience

00:03:28.800 and address those questions.

00:03:31.040 It's gonna be a great time.

00:03:32.200 You'll get to meet John Harris.

00:03:33.360 You'll get to meet A.D. Robles.

00:03:34.600 You'll get to meet myself.

00:03:35.740 So if you're anywhere in the area,

00:03:37.660 in Williamson County, or if you're in Austin, Texas,

00:03:40.680 or you're north of Williamson County,

00:03:42.540 or to the west or to the east,

00:03:43.880 and you wanna come out and join us

00:03:45.280 for that one-day conference, Saturday, March 12th.

00:03:49.240 Come on out.

00:03:49.880 It's free registration.

00:03:51.840 We're gonna have some refreshments free.

00:03:53.600 Everything's free.

00:03:54.600 So we're paying out of pocket as a ministry

00:03:56.540 to make this happen.

00:03:57.820 We're covering the cost to fly out John and AD

00:04:00.060 to put them up in a hotel

00:04:01.380 so you don't have to pay a dime to show up and attend this.

00:04:05.180 However, for anybody who wants to be generous

00:04:07.780 and help us offset these costs,

00:04:10.080 you can do so donating towards this conference

00:04:12.580 by simply going to rightresponseministries.com

00:04:16.000 slash donate.

00:04:17.120 Again, that's rightresponseministries.com slash donate.

00:04:21.040 Now to find the address, physical location

00:04:23.220 for the conference and exact times

00:04:25.440 for each of the sessions for that Saturday, March 12th,

00:04:28.620 again, go to our website, rightresponseministries.com,

00:04:32.380 click on the menu button at the top

00:04:34.020 and scroll down and you'll find conference.

00:04:36.760 Click on conference,

00:04:37.940 you'll find all the details that you need.

00:04:40.040 And one of the details there that we need

00:04:42.360 is although registration is free,

00:04:44.460 there's a form at the bottom that says RSVP.

00:04:47.840 We would really appreciate if you could let us know

00:04:50.400 whether or not you're coming

00:04:51.840 and how many people you plan on bringing with you, right?

00:04:55.200 If you've got 10 kids, God bless you for having 10 kids,

00:04:58.280 but we would like to know that you're bringing yourself,

00:05:00.600 your wife, and your 10 kids.

00:05:02.160 Please come, but please let us know

00:05:04.020 so that we can adequately prepare for this.

00:05:06.800 The last thing that I'll say is that that Sunday,

00:05:09.480 which would be March 13th,

00:05:11.440 For anybody who wants to join our church, Covenant Bible Church, John Harris will stay in town.

00:05:17.180 He's going to linger and he's going to preach that Sunday morning at our Lord's Day worship service.

00:05:21.580 That's 9.30 a.m. on Sunday, March 13th at my church that I pastor.

00:05:27.600 Again, that's Covenant Bible Church.

00:05:29.360 We're in Georgetown, Texas.

00:05:31.100 That's the Williamson County area.

00:05:32.920 So if you're in Williamson County or you're in North Austin or you're somewhere nearby and you don't have a church home, if you've got a church home, go there.

00:05:40.580 But if you don't have a church home, you're looking for a church that has courage, that

00:05:44.180 has biblical fidelity, and you want to hear John Harris preach a dynamite sermon from

00:05:49.320 the Word of God, then come and join us again Sunday, March 13th.

00:05:53.380 You can find details or directions to join our church that Sunday morning at covenantbible.org.

00:06:00.780 Our website for Covenant Bible Church is covenantbible.org.

00:06:05.520 Without further ado, let's go ahead and jump into our episode.

00:06:09.060 Applying God's Word to every aspect of life.

00:06:12.420 This is Theology Applied.

00:06:19.300 All right, so here we are with another episode of Theology Applied.

00:06:22.620 And I have as a special guest, Dr. Josh Bice coming on the show.

00:06:27.280 He is the founder, I guess, founder and president of G3 Ministries.

00:06:31.620 Yeah, that's correct. It's good to be with you.

00:06:33.440 Great. And what's the name of your church that you're the pastor of?

00:06:36.000 Yeah, I serve as the pastor of Praise Mill Baptist Church on the west side of Atlanta.

00:06:40.840 Great. Well, thanks for coming on the show. And I just want to go ahead and dive in because

00:06:44.780 I only really have three questions for you and I sent them to you ahead of time,

00:06:48.660 but I think there's a lot that can be discussed with them. I know some of this you've already

00:06:52.080 discussed. I've seen some of the things that you've posted since the conference where you

00:06:56.420 let people know on the panel that you were on, you know, that your church has decided to leave

00:07:01.440 the SBC, your church predates the Southern Baptist Convention, and you've been a part of it

00:07:06.260 forever. Long before you were ever born, your church was a part of it, but you guys decided

00:07:11.040 to go ahead and cut ties. So I know you've already talked about this at some length,

00:07:15.300 but just to catch some of our listeners who maybe haven't heard this already,

00:07:18.780 what were you and your elders' primary reasons for cutting ties with the SBC?

00:07:23.700 Yeah, that's a great question. So the main reason was just in terms of a lack of confidence in

00:07:30.400 leadership, a loss of confidence in a couple of main areas, which I think really sums up the

00:07:37.940 existence and the purpose of the SBC as a whole. When you think about the Southern Baptist Convention,

00:07:44.040 it was founded for the purpose of both theological education and church planting and missions.

00:07:50.200 And when a church loses confidence in a denominational group like the SBC,

00:07:55.860 on those two big main pillars, you might say, well, then really at the end of the day,

00:08:03.240 it's just a logical decision. I mean, there's really no point in staying engaged.

00:08:08.300 But then there's another layer as well, as far as like a conscience layer. And then I think

00:08:14.060 a stewardship layer as well. So when we think of theological education, as far as the seminaries

00:08:21.860 and the Bible colleges, those organizations that make up what we might call the educational

00:08:28.220 arm of the SBC, if people that come to me or that I have a voice into their life and

00:08:35.540 ministry and they say, what school should I attend?

00:08:39.380 And if someone within my local church or even someone outside of my local church through

00:08:44.080 like G3 and the network, if I'm sending them consistently to other schools outside of the

00:08:51.680 SBC, then that certainly is a problem. And so then, you know, we have to ask ourselves the

00:08:57.960 honest question about, you know, our engagement, the money that we might be giving to further that

00:09:04.680 agenda. And then, of course, as it pertains to the church planting arm, if we would not

00:09:11.000 recommend if someone left our church and moved, say, to Houston, Texas, or to, say, somewhere in

00:09:17.840 Kansas, for instance. And they said, what church would you recommend? You know, if I'm not sending

00:09:24.580 them to one of the churches that we're planting, and that's a problem. And if those churches are

00:09:30.200 served by elders that we would not have as elders in our local church, by and large. And I know that

00:09:37.340 that might sound like a massive broad brush. Right. And to some degree it is. And so I'll

00:09:43.120 accept that but but for the most part we would not accept these elders into our local church as

00:09:49.240 elders right so when we think about that it's just it really doesn't make any sense for us to stay

00:09:54.620 engaged in the southern baptist convention but then you can take it up a notch when it comes to

00:09:59.960 say being a good steward of your time and your your influence or even your finances and so when

00:10:08.460 we have individuals like Ed Litton, who is elected as the president of the Southern Baptist Convention

00:10:14.400 to represent all of the SBC churches as a model, as far as what a pastor should represent. And then

00:10:22.500 of course, in preaching, as he preaches in chapel services at various seminaries within the SBC

00:10:29.280 network. Here's a man who's been engaged in a scandal. This is after he was elected. As far as

00:10:37.220 plagiarism is concerned and now it's been called sermon gate and he's yet to really admit it and

00:10:44.440 repent he's sort of tried to dodge these things but even prior to his election i mean he's he's

00:10:51.600 certainly not a complementarian whatever he might be and he's co-preaching with his wife and so

00:10:58.220 certainly we would reject his theological positions as it pertains to preaching philosophy and

00:11:06.020 methodology. And so these are massive problems. And then, of course, we have the historical

00:11:11.100 social justice problem that's been plaguing the SBC for some time that was brought to

00:11:16.460 really the spotlight, you might say, brought down on this issue back in 2018.

00:11:23.720 And so that's just been a continuous problem. And so when we adopted Resolution 9 in 2019

00:11:32.240 in Birmingham, that was in many ways a watershed moment for the SBC. And looking back, I can see

00:11:40.300 where the lights came on for a whole lot of people at that point. You've got to remember my

00:11:44.420 involvement. I was the year prior in 2018, I wrote an article that was titled the SBC at the

00:11:51.880 intersection of intersectionality. And there was a professor that, and this was written one week or

00:11:58.260 so before the annual meeting in June and one of the SBC professors tweeted it out or retweeted it

00:12:04.160 within a couple of hours Russell Moore had already contacted his provost had him rebuked and he had

00:12:12.900 to delete the tweet so he reached out to me in a private text message and told me what had happened

00:12:18.500 and yet he still believed that I was you know speaking the truth and that sort of thing so we

00:12:24.440 had some private conversations about that. What they were doing and what they were saying at that

00:12:29.880 point was that I was exaggerating and that others like me were exaggerating. And then, of course,

00:12:35.060 we would eventually meet in 2018 that summer in Dallas for the statement on social justice and

00:12:40.960 the gospel. And they would say, we're exaggerating. There is no social justice movement. We're simply

00:12:47.100 mistreating people. We're approaching this thing from the wrong angle. I mean, they had all sorts

00:12:54.080 of things to say about us and then the very next summer they brought before the convention a

00:13:02.080 resolution on critical race theory and intersectionality and we accepted it we adopted

00:13:08.200 it right so that's problematic and then they try to pass it as a block absolutely i mean there was

00:13:14.280 all sorts of you know political maneuvering that took place on the floor to get it to the vote

00:13:19.860 that's a whole different yeah that's a whole yeah but but when it came to this year or this this

00:13:27.120 past year you might say 2021 in nashville and all of the the attempts from the floor to go on record

00:13:36.060 publicly to repudiate these godless ideologies like critical race theory and intersectionality

00:13:42.340 at every given turn they they refused to do it and so that was just riding on the wall it was

00:13:49.840 confirmation i remember the group of men that were with me from my church we went to eat supper

00:13:55.480 after the convention concluded that day and we talked about we debriefed and and i said you know

00:14:01.980 i don't know that we're going to be able to stay engaged that's going to be a decision that that

00:14:06.320 myself and the elders and then eventually our church will have to come to a decision on this

00:14:12.240 but right but was that a congregational vote for your church or was that an elder vote

00:14:17.200 uh well it was both i mean the elders so our our church government is we're an elder-led church

00:14:24.480 with congregational authority so so are we the congregation gives us authority to lead

00:14:29.720 but on big big decisions we we have to have the congregation's approval and affirmation and so

00:14:36.100 through months of prayer and and talks we as elders decided that this was the right move and

00:14:42.880 then eventually it was brought to a church vote at the end of 2021 yeah yeah man that's a lot

00:14:49.220 i completely agree it's you know for me i i remember it just felt uncanny i remember watching

00:14:54.520 you know what went down with the sbc convention um not in 2019 but in 2020 and uh and i remember

00:15:02.840 just seeing how like the the comparison just seemed to be like so similar between what was

00:15:08.120 happening with our nation as a whole right like even the the little you know twitter battle you

00:15:14.440 know that happened during as the convention is going on in real time with mike stone you know

00:15:18.640 and like oh look he's not the good samaritan who would stop he's the busy you know priest who won't

00:15:23.960 get his clothes dirty you know and here's this woman crying and he doesn't care and uh and i

00:15:28.840 remember just thinking like okay i i feel like didn't we just didn't we just do this with like

00:15:33.900 there's there's one guy who is the embodiment he's he's uh empathy incarnate right and there's

00:15:39.420 this other guy who's mean and you know and he and he has conservative policies but he's mean it

00:15:44.980 doesn't care you know but this other guy he's you know he's empathetic and he wants to you know

00:15:49.960 unite the country again and then you look at the margin with you know with the vote and the sbc

00:15:55.500 and and then the margin in our nation with you know the national vote for and i was like i don't

00:16:00.840 know if there's any difference between the sbc and america you know and but i say that but then

00:16:07.940 you know what's happening in virginia you know and like with you know youngkin gets elected you

00:16:12.800 know and immediately keeping good on some of his promises you know with you know trying to get

00:16:16.400 critical race theory out of the schools and all those kinds of things and so i see what happens

00:16:20.120 in virginia you know and i'm thinking about what happened you know with resolution nine i'm like

00:16:25.020 well i guess you know there's not an exact comparison turns out the state of virginia

00:16:29.060 is more conservative than the SBC. So that's maybe a little harsh, but I was just looking at it and I

00:16:34.960 was like, we're supposed to be salt. We're supposed to be light. Like I should be able to look at a

00:16:38.220 mainline Bible believing denomination and say that is starkly different. There's a stark 0.88

00:16:44.340 distinction between the people of God and the nation as a whole. There's a difference between

00:16:50.680 the Christian and the pagan. And, but I was looking at the same issues and the same voting

00:16:55.860 margins for the most part i mean it was just uncanny it was like where's the saltiness where's

00:17:01.140 the light where's the distinction it just feels like the sbc like whatever happens in america

00:17:06.220 that's what we can expect and and at that point when the salt loses its saltiness you know somebody

00:17:11.940 said something about that one time what is it you know so yeah so yeah so i just started getting

00:17:16.460 frustrated with that any any more thoughts on that question before we move on no i think you're right

00:17:20.820 on point i think that the tragedy in it all is that much of the the typical you know political

00:17:27.740 national level politics you know that we see those tactics and strategies they were actually at play

00:17:35.600 it seemed like in in in the sbc you know election for president this year we could see that taking

00:17:42.480 place but you're also right in the sense that you know when we see things happening or being

00:17:47.700 played out, if you will, in the cultural sphere. It's oftentimes this idea with a big tent approach

00:17:54.580 to, you know, maintaining this massive size as an SBC network is that we feel like we have to

00:18:02.940 suddenly virtue signal to every group out there to let them know that we're really not mean.

00:18:08.180 We really don't hate them and that sort of thing. When really we can just preach the gospel and love

00:18:14.240 people and have healthy churches and and do missions and educate you know men for the pulpit

00:18:20.620 and so we don't really have to get into the whole virtue signaling game but unfortunately that's

00:18:26.700 really where we've where we've gone in this whole thing and so social justice and and the critical

00:18:32.380 race theory debate intersectionality has just really gained wings if you will and it's just

00:18:38.080 it's everywhere yeah you're absolutely right and when it comes to you know kindness i mean kindness

00:18:43.280 is a fruit of the spirit. Gentleness is a fruit of the spirit. But I think the problem is that

00:18:47.380 people, they truncate it. They make it too overly simplistic. You know, when Jesus is calling,

00:18:53.120 you know, religious rulers of his day, whitewashed tombs, right? You look nice on the outside, 0.92

00:18:57.840 but you're a rotting corpse and smell like death on the inside. That's who you truly are. 1.00

00:19:02.840 Or a brood of vipers, you know. Jesus, right? So, okay, that gives some of my, you know, doctrine, 0.96

00:19:09.140 you know theology proper doctrine of god but you know i so i would hold to divine simplicity in some

00:19:13.900 of those that god cannot be severed in parts and jesus the god man um i don't think there was ever

00:19:18.720 a moment that he is not perfectly embodying all the fruit of the spirit simultaneously in full

00:19:23.180 measure which means there was never a time that jesus is not being gentle that the fruit of the

00:19:27.140 spirit i wouldn't see them as a toolbox taking out a hammer for one task and putting it back

00:19:31.580 taking out a wrench for another i would see all the fruit of the spirit operating in full measure

00:19:35.600 all the time in the God-man, in Jesus Christ, which means when Jesus is fashioning a whip

00:19:40.480 and overturning tables in the temple and all those moments, Jesus is showing us perfect

00:19:45.120 gentleness. 0.98

00:19:45.740 And my fear is that Christians have so narrowly defined gentleness that it precludes the 0.99

00:19:51.840 Son of God, which means we've got a really big problem. 0.97

00:19:54.420 And I think one of the ways to understand Jesus as being gentle in those seemingly harsh

00:19:59.280 moments is just keeping in mind that there's always more than just one other party.

00:20:04.220 So what seems like harshness to this party over here is gentleness for the group over here that's being targeted and oppressed by them. 0.72

00:20:14.040 And so, you know, so like, you know, I preached against transgenderism and homosexuality January 16th. 0.66

00:20:21.120 I'm not sure that the date that this recording will come out, but January 16th, which for us was last Sunday. 0.96

00:20:26.800 And it's like, I am being gentle towards Christian parents and Christian pastors in Canada who are under the threat of legal penalty and jail time for offering the message of the gospel and hope because evangelism has effectively been banned in Canada and fast tracked by the conservative members of parliament with a unanimous, not one dissenting vote.

00:20:52.200 And so I'm not being harsh. I'm not being cruel. I would see that as I am being gentle. And so I think in the SBC, faithful guys in the past yourself, but then other guys like Mike Stone or guys like Tom Askell, the founders guys, I see those guys as absolutely the most gentle, some of the most gentle men I know.

00:21:11.420 And what a gentleman does when someone is being assaulted and under attack and preyed upon, actually P-R-E-Y-E-D, preyed upon to be exploited as simply the virtue signaling of some other party for the sake of power and their own agenda.

00:21:30.460 Gentleness to that individual who's being preyed upon may look like harshness towards the actual offender, the actual person attacking. 0.50

00:21:39.860 but i just thought that like as christians we knew that i thought that we we had that level

00:21:44.940 of discernment that level was to me that's like basic anybody who's a pastor should be able to

00:21:49.680 know that the first person who runs into your office saying that they were abused saying they

00:21:53.600 were mistreated is not necessarily the innocent party and in fact we have two or three right two

00:21:59.460 or three come we weigh it and and if it turns out that they're lying then they're not only are they

00:22:04.200 not the abused or the victim they're the victimizer they actually are bearing false witness and

00:22:09.080 oppressing someone else. And I just thought that was basic biblical justice, basic understanding

00:22:13.820 of, and it seems like that is becoming increasingly rare, not just in Christians, not just in the

00:22:20.200 nation, but among pastors today. Would you agree with that assessment? Wholeheartedly. I think,

00:22:26.440 you know, when Jesus approaches a woman at the well and he deals with her sin, he does that

00:22:33.020 because he's demonstrating what gentleness and love looks like.

00:22:36.960 But when we become a people who are afraid to speak the truth in love,

00:22:42.020 then it's really the most unloving position that we could take.

00:22:45.640 And that's what we're seeing with the SBC.

00:22:48.280 It's taking that leftward drift to where we're almost handcuffed in such a way

00:22:55.880 that we have to virtue signal about every oppressed group and individual.

00:23:00.500 And pretty soon it's going to it's going to eventually tank. And that's one of the reasons that we have decided to exit is because at this point, I'm not really confident.

00:23:10.180 I know I have, you know, brothers that are staying in the SBC and they want to fight and they want to try to reform and that sort of thing.

00:23:18.820 But I'm really not convinced that that the SBC is redeemable at this point.

00:23:23.780 I don't think that there's going to be, and I, you know, I really pray that I'm wrong, but I don't really see another conservative resurgence happening.

00:23:33.580 Mm hmm. Yeah. Well, so that gets us right into where I want to go with this, which is, you know, you you have said multiple times now I've seen you in a couple of different I saw you, I think, with Justin Peters and I saw the original panel from the conference where you were saying you made the announcement, at least to the larger public context that I was a part of to that you guys were, you know, cutting ties and pulling out of the SBC and all these contexts.

00:23:58.140 you know, you've, you've carefully, and I think you're right to do it. I don't think it's, you

00:24:01.520 know, I don't think you're just, you know, being mincing words or being overly careful because it

00:24:05.760 is a legitimate theological category. And you said, you know, this is it's, it's in the arena

00:24:11.680 of, of conscience, right? Christian liberty conscience. However, you and I both know that

00:24:17.060 we don't just get to throw something in the, in the area of conscience because

00:24:21.520 brothers disagree on it. Um, sometimes, uh, a brother is just wrong. It's like, well, you,

00:24:27.680 you think, you know, you're, you're conscious. So maybe your conscience is pricked. Um, that could

00:24:32.160 be because it's a matter of conscience. It also could be because your conscience is seared right

00:24:36.280 by, by blindness or sin or ignorance or whatever it may be. Um, and so at this point, I, I, I would

00:24:42.580 agree with what I've heard you say in other contexts, that this is a legitimate matter of

00:24:46.820 conscience, meaning just to be pain, painfully clear, like a brother, like Tom Askell, who I

00:24:51.620 know you appreciate. I appreciate a president with, with founders ministries. We've had them

00:24:55.460 on the show before a phenomenal man of God. I would not say by any stretch that Tom Askell

00:25:00.040 is in sin by, by keeping his church, you know, leading them to remain in the SBC at this time.

00:25:06.620 However, there is an objective point. Now it's hard to define, but this is kind of what I want

00:25:11.160 to pick your brain about. It's hard to define you and I are, neither of us are saying that the SBC

00:25:16.140 is there yet, but there does come a point where if the SBC crosses this line, blank, blank, and

00:25:22.780 blank, then you can no longer, it's no longer a matter of conscience. It is objectively compromise

00:25:29.440 to be in the SBC. So I worded the question like this. I'll just stick to my script and what I

00:25:36.040 wrote here. I said, you said multiple times that a church's decision of whether or not to leave the

00:25:40.360 SBC is a matter of conscience. So at what point is a local church required by scripture to leave

00:25:45.640 a denomination. It could be the SBC or for guys who aren't a part of that even broader, any

00:25:49.700 denomination. What would the SBC have to do in order to force the hand of biblically faithful 0.81

00:25:56.200 churches to leave it? Personally, I would argue that there are two sides of the equation. I think

00:26:01.040 on the one hand, the degree of compromise within the SBC must be carefully considered. On the other

00:26:07.340 hand, the degree of contribution from a local church must also be considered. In other words,

00:26:12.380 if a local church can participate in an organization such as the SBC with a minimal contribution of

00:26:19.080 time and talent, treasure, then that church may be capable of tolerating with a clear conscience

00:26:26.380 before the Lord a higher degree of the SBC's compromise. In short, remaining in the SBC for

00:26:32.580 the sake of reformation seems to be justifiable, but only if a local church is fighting more than

00:26:39.620 it is funding. What do you think about that? What are your thoughts? Yeah, I really like the way

00:26:45.340 that you phrased the last part of it, fighting more than funding for those who are staying in

00:26:50.740 for reform, like Tom Askell or Tom Buck or whoever it might be. And there are many pastors, by the

00:26:57.400 way. So I just want to be clear as I seek to try to unpack this question, this answer, is that when

00:27:04.820 I make the statements that I've made, and I certainly did this in the article that I wrote

00:27:09.460 as well, I want to be clear that I'm not suggesting that every person that's, you know,

00:27:16.180 employed by the SBC at any level, whether that's a state convention level or whether

00:27:21.120 it be at a seminary level or whatever, or even those who are staying in the SBC, I'm

00:27:29.120 not suggesting that they've all abandoned the faith or that they're all compromisers

00:27:34.860 because there are many, many godly men and women who are part of the SBC.

00:27:40.820 Unfortunately, there's an elite structure of leadership at the top,

00:27:45.580 where there's an awful lot of churches that make up the more than 40,000 churches that represent the SBC,

00:27:52.400 that never show up, not even one messenger from their church shows up at the annual meeting every year.

00:27:59.280 So there's only a small percentage.

00:28:01.480 When you think about more than 40,000 churches who can send upwards of 10 or more messengers from their church to represent their local church to vote during the business sessions, and yet we're doing really good if we can get 7,000 people at a convention.

00:28:20.080 And so when you think about how few people actually show up, or even know what's happening, politically speaking, that's a problem. So stewardship is extremely important. But there's a lot of really good churches that have not really come to see the issues, I think.

00:28:41.480 I earnestly believe that there are a lot of really godly churches and faithful churches, healthy churches and good pastors that are just disconnected from the SBC.

00:28:51.340 And they think that, well, we won the war on inerrancy.

00:28:54.540 And so they keep sending money, like 10 percent of their undesignated receipts every year from their church to fund the SBC, all the while not sending a messenger to the annual meeting.

00:29:05.940 So they don't know what's being talked about.

00:29:07.980 And so, you know, we're living in a time where we really need to reconsider our financial investments.

00:29:15.440 We need to think critically about what we're funding.

00:29:18.300 So I would say to the to the point of where's the line in the sand for absolute necessity of separation?

00:29:26.300 I would say it's the gospel. Whenever the gospel is perverted, then, you know, you don't really have to pray about it anymore.

00:29:34.180 You need to get out immediately. But then there's going to be all sorts of other issues like, OK, well, if it's not a perversion of the gospel yet, then how close to that line are we?

00:29:45.340 And that's, again, with critical race theory and the whole the whole talk of intersectionality and the way that things are being approached politically makes me extremely nervous.

00:29:57.420 And I don't see any, any way forward for us. So for us, it was a, it was a conscience issue and

00:30:04.540 it was a stewardship issue as you've made clear in the question. And so we really couldn't stay

00:30:10.040 in anymore because you see the SBC is a pay to play sort of system. So if you're going to be a

00:30:15.980 part of the SBC, you have to, you have to check the box on the Baptist faith and message 2000,

00:30:22.200 and you have to give money. And for us, we came to a place where we said, we don't want to give

00:30:27.480 one more dollar to the SBC. And so in order to stay in and, and fight and to, to seek reform,

00:30:36.560 we would have to continue to fund the SBC at some level. Now, many years ago, we backed way back on

00:30:42.680 giving to the SBC. So we were only giving to mission causes. Anyway, we, we had completely

00:30:48.880 dropped off cooperative CP gifts and all of that was just completely gone. So to cooperate

00:30:56.840 as a church was now not a possibility for us any longer. So with that said, it was at that point

00:31:06.520 where we said we really need to separate and we don't need to be a part of this anymore. We need

00:31:11.780 to go on and do gospel ministry elsewhere. And at some point, you know, I'll stop talking about

00:31:18.200 the SBC, except I'll point back and make comments occasionally, but it's not my job. I don't feel

00:31:23.820 like I have to, for the rest of my life, throw rocks at the SBC. I will pray for these brothers.

00:31:30.600 I will pray for these churches. I will pray for leaders to repent, but I'm not going to continue

00:31:36.100 to just get up every day and think I've got to go on some, you know, polemics search to try to

00:31:42.720 figure out a way to expose the SBC. I think the SBC has exposed itself, unfortunately.

00:31:48.200 unfortunately um practical question for a moment what is the minimum requirement so let's say

00:31:54.680 you know because i really think that that principle of you know um well i want to i want to

00:31:59.600 seek reformation right i want to reform that i mean this is tale as old as time whether it's you

00:32:04.220 know i'm going to stay in england you know with william laud and you know his high high church

00:32:09.720 and persecution of you know puritan pastors or well i'm going to go to the new world you know

00:32:14.240 For me, at the end of 2020, me and my family, we left California.

00:32:18.300 I was pastoring a church there, had been there for several years.

00:32:21.800 My wife's family and my family were both in Texas.

00:32:24.300 And so we were just, after 2020, we were done.

00:32:27.400 And so we wanted to leave.

00:32:30.280 Although there were multiple families that came with us.

00:32:33.360 We planted a new church here.

00:32:34.700 By God's grace, it's growing.

00:32:36.380 But obviously, multiple families stayed behind.

00:32:39.760 And so that question of everybody who stayed behind, none of them stayed behind because

00:32:43.740 they were like, we love Gavin Newsom and, you know, and we think that he's a brilliant and

00:32:49.000 wonderful, you know, politician. It was always, we're staying behind to fight. And that was,

00:32:53.480 that's what it always, so whether it's a denomination or whether it's, you know,

00:32:56.980 where you live, you know, this, the whole category of fleeing, right? Like Jesus gives a provision

00:33:04.260 for fleeing, like, and not just a provision, but in some cases, depending, you know, how you apply

00:33:09.820 this a command, right? If a town does not receive you, then shake the dust off your feet. And so

00:33:14.820 there is a Christian category for fleeing and that doesn't make you a quitter. It doesn't make you a

00:33:18.880 coward. And there also is a biblical category for fighting. And so there's fleeing and fighting and

00:33:26.500 it's tough to know what you should do. And I think that's why the safest thing in most of

00:33:32.360 these cases is to put it under the larger banner of a matter of conscience. But with California,

00:33:37.220 I remember thinking like, you know, a lot of Christians are like, well, we're staying to fight.

00:33:40.840 And my question is, you know, in real terms, what percentage of your income do you give to the church and what percentage goes to state taxes?

00:33:49.020 You know, what percentage of, you know, and you just look at it, all these things.

00:33:52.020 And that's not to say no Christian should live in California, that there's not any kind of exception clause.

00:33:56.960 I mean, the military, for goodness sake, I think it's right.

00:33:59.260 I'm not a pacifist.

00:34:00.060 So I think a man can serve in the military.

00:34:01.560 If you serve in the military, especially the Navy, you're going to be in California.

00:34:04.480 So California needs churches.

00:34:05.960 I think there are exception clauses, but I think sometimes we kid ourselves. We think we're doing

00:34:11.260 more fighting. Basically, we pump up our numbers, our stats in the fighting category. And I think

00:34:20.080 we're not willing to take a hard look at our stats in the funding category. I think this principle

00:34:25.760 applies to multiple things, but I think a lot of us, whether Amazon, man, I feel like, I'm like,

00:34:30.220 i think a package from amazon is on my doorstep every single day and i'm like i'm like maybe i

00:34:36.780 should try a little bit harder you know it's so easy it's just so darn easy to you know to use

00:34:41.580 amazon but it's like but i know they're giving money to blm they're doing this like should i be

00:34:46.440 using giving this much of my money to amazon so whether it's a domination denomination or

00:34:52.100 corporations that we you know that we patron patron or whether it's what state we live in or

00:34:56.340 all these different things, I think asking some serious questions about, am I really fighting?

00:35:01.320 How am I fighting? Can I, can I stand before God and give an answer, right? Give an account for

00:35:06.400 the ways that I'm fighting against wickedness in this state, in this organization, in this

00:35:10.560 denomination, whatever it might be. And then also looking at, and, and in, in my choice to stay and

00:35:17.280 fight, how hard am I really fighting? And then also having, and it hurts, but having that honest

00:35:23.040 looked at, but by staying to fight, how much am I, not wanting to, but how much am I forced to fund

00:35:30.740 simply by my decision to stay and fight? And I think that number, however, whatever metrics are

00:35:37.600 used to determine the funding amount, I think sometimes it can be surprising and painful to

00:35:44.940 realize, oh man, I thought I was fighting. I'm having serious conversations. I'm taking a stand

00:35:50.280 on certain issues. But, but, but really my fighting is actually, if I'm really honest,

00:35:56.060 it's doing this much, but my funding is just to this Leviathan, this Bohemian, you know,

00:36:02.680 just, just thousands of dollars, just, you know, going and going and going and going.

00:36:07.080 And so, so even though I'm fighting, if I could really, if I could give truth serum to the people

00:36:11.700 at the top, um, Hey, would you want me to leave or stay? They're like, Oh, Oh, you can stay and

00:36:15.880 fight. That's cute. Yeah. We see you on Facebook and the comments that you make and stuff, but we

00:36:20.680 also, we appreciate the thousands of dollars that your church gave last year. Exactly. Yeah. So it's

00:36:27.080 exactly. Yeah. And when I think of that, I also have to ask myself this honest question as it

00:36:33.040 pertains to stewardship, stewardship of time. Like, you know, it's one thing to fight, you know,

00:36:39.320 the fight of faith, right. And to go out into this dark world and to preach the gospel and to

00:36:45.240 push back against the, the, the, the darkness of this culture, the depravity that, you know,

00:36:50.500 that surrounds us, if you will. But it's another thing to get up every day and to have to fight

00:36:55.800 other Christians, other churches. And that's certainly not something that I think is a good 0.97

00:37:02.580 use of our time. So, you know, finding people to network with under this big, massive tent,

00:37:10.260 It's like going to a really large family reunion and trying to figure out what table you're going to be welcome to sit at for lunch and coming to a point where you don't really see that there's a good option anymore.

00:37:26.420 And so it's just it becomes far more difficult.

00:37:29.020 So when I'm thinking of fighting the fight of faith and I'm thinking of planting churches and doing the work of ministry, I want to figure out ways to spend my time and I have, you know, limited time every day.

00:37:43.780 You know, we're so limited. And so how am I going to spend those hours? Will I spend those hours trying to figure out ways to, you know, battle some, you know, polemics issue within the SBC? Or can I work to plant a church in a, you know, specific state where, you know, there's far more darkness than there is light through a network like G3, for instance?

00:38:08.040 right yeah no that's that's really good and i think that's kind of that's the catch-22 is if

00:38:14.420 you do it yourself right a local church i mean and at the end of the day the sbc doesn't plant

00:38:18.640 churches churches plant churches absolutely you know so the sbc can help to train and they can

00:38:22.920 help to fund and those kind of things but churches plant churches and if you're pastoring a small

00:38:27.380 church with limited amount of people limited amount of funds um then and the difficulty in

00:38:32.380 doing it alone doing it yourself is well the limit on resources the benefit that's the con the pro

00:38:38.500 is um you have pretty much you know a hundred percent influence and say in who the that church

00:38:46.580 planner is going to be who is you know who those elders are going to be what kind of church what

00:38:50.260 kind of theology what what you're actually planting so i think that's kind of that's the

00:38:54.660 decision you know is all right smaller it's like you know we don't have like as rod martin always

00:38:59.900 says, you know, like the widow's, you know, the widow's mites, you got all these widow's mites

00:39:03.120 and yeah, that is a massive benefit. And I really liked Rob Martin and we've had him on the show

00:39:06.640 too. Um, I love talking about just about like, Oh, when are we going to Mars? I like that kind

00:39:13.280 of stuff. Um, but, but you know, he's, he always talks about the widow's mites and you pull it

00:39:17.820 all together and there's so much and you can just, you can do so much and that's true, but the bigger

00:39:21.760 something gets, it's like the more resources it has. Um, but there's also, uh, the, the less

00:39:27.540 influence any one person has over it and it's just and it's hard it's just it's difficult to

00:39:32.980 keep a big old behemoth thing faithful and it is and focused you know and you know that idea of

00:39:39.280 cooperation is a really has been historically a really strong point of the sbc because you can

00:39:45.240 pull all of this money together but like you said you know when you have a small group of elites at

00:39:50.060 the top rung of the ladder they're making all the decisions on where they're planting churches how

00:39:54.800 they're planting churches. Yes, we vote on a few things, but at the end of the day, you just keep

00:40:00.320 shoveling the money in the front door and they're going to keep doing their thing. Like with, you

00:40:05.500 know, as far as a small independent church. Yeah, you're right. I mean, we actually need to partner

00:40:11.520 with other local churches. I think that that's a healthy thing. And that's why we are doing what

00:40:16.160 we're doing with the G3 church network. And then as we publish a project, like if we publish a

00:40:22.560 project from our local church churches plant churches so if we decide okay we're going to

00:40:27.440 enter into this church planting project and we publish that within the uh within the g3 church

00:40:32.900 network it doesn't mean that every single church within the network has to actually partner with us

00:40:39.420 for that project but five or six may that are close by that can maybe have some some uh some

00:40:47.400 influence in terms of proximity, could send elders from their church to help engage in the

00:40:53.300 oversight of the initial launch and partner with us on, you know, rotation of preaching

00:40:59.960 responsibilities and funding of rental of a facility and all sorts of things, right? So we're

00:41:06.900 not going to have to do this all alone because we might have, you know, out of a network of 100 or

00:41:12.580 200 churches right now we're about 100 churches we might have five or six churches that say yeah

00:41:18.120 count me in on this and we're going to do this so to cooperate with another church is the extremely

00:41:23.660 healthy benefit but the way that the sbc has gone with this massive machine it's almost as if you

00:41:32.960 know you don't really even know what's going on you're just giving them money and trusting they're

00:41:36.760 doing it properly right that's the difficulty yeah the lack of accountability that's what you

00:41:41.480 You know, it's, you know, again, the similarity is uncanny, but that's how people feel, you know, with the nation.

00:41:47.860 It's like, who's Dr. Fauci accountable to $420,000 a year salary, you know, the unelected, most powerful official in the world.

00:41:56.520 And so accountability is incredibly important.

00:41:59.240 So that gets into the whole G3 thing, G3 network thing.

00:42:02.940 So let me just go ahead and ask you about that.

00:42:05.220 So G3, it appears to be creating its own network of like-minded churches.

00:42:09.360 is, this is an honorable, much needed endeavor. My question is this, does G3 have, well, before I

00:42:16.120 get to the specific thing about, we'll get there. But first, what would be some distinctives,

00:42:21.760 theological distinctives? G3 network, if you're going to be in this network, you're going to be

00:42:25.220 a church in this network, you are blank. What do you like? Yeah. So number one, we're Baptist.

00:42:31.200 Number two, we hold to, with some degree of and measure of even qualifications, we hold to the 1689 Baptist Confession.

00:42:42.720 So with that said, what we would allow is say a church is led by a group of pastors and the pastors say we can actually link arms and actually affirm the 1689.

00:42:58.140 but our whole church can't yet, in fact, we don't have the 1689 as our official confession within

00:43:06.780 our own local church, then we would still allow that church to be a part of this network because

00:43:11.680 we believe that the pastors within this network and the churches can associate together so long

00:43:18.220 as the leadership is aligned properly. Furthermore, we think that a good confession

00:43:24.320 like the 1689, for instance, provides clear and valid transparency as to who we are, where we

00:43:32.740 stand. It's like a flag or a pole, if you will, a flagpole in the ground. It's waving a flag that

00:43:39.360 says this is who we are. And then we also recognize that there are some people, some churches, some

00:43:45.260 pastors that would say, well, we're not exactly on board with, say, the article on the Sabbath or

00:43:53.060 you know that the the pope is the antichrist we want to sort of adjust and qualify on some things

00:43:59.020 and so we allow for people in churches to qualify on some things but we just need to make sure that

00:44:04.740 we're not too far apart from one another that we would not be able to be like-minded and be in

00:44:10.440 good fellowship and partner together in projects so we do believe that you know holding to a

00:44:16.040 confessional statement like the 1689 is extremely important yeah that's good so baptist and

00:44:22.100 confessionally Baptist, um, which is reformed Baptist, you know, I, I have to tell people all

00:44:27.500 the time there's Calvinistic Baptist who I appreciate. Um, and then there are reformed

00:44:32.080 Baptist. And so I, you know, I, for years and years, you know, my listeners know this, but

00:44:36.860 for years and years, you know, I did theology like most guys do when they get into ministry,

00:44:41.540 I did it all the cart and, uh, it's just, it's exhausting, you know? And I felt like I was

00:44:47.240 getting near the end of the buffet line, you know, like at a Luby's or something. I had my tray,

00:44:50.980 you know, two or three plates and I had all these different things. And then I'm looking over and

00:44:54.900 I'm like, uh, there's this little chalkboard, you know, sandwich board sign that says the chef

00:44:59.160 special. And I realized I've already got like 97% of the things on my tray are part of the chef

00:45:04.740 special. So either this 3% where I'm differing with the chef's opinion, um, either I'm just

00:45:10.120 nailing it on the buffet line and I just know exactly what's right. And the chef is mistaken,

00:45:14.520 or maybe somebody else already did all this, all this work, you know, and, and maybe theology,

00:45:21.540 maybe there actually is a systematic and there is a common thread, you know, through the Bible.

00:45:25.920 And there is a way of understanding things cohesively, and it's not meant to be done

00:45:29.620 all the cart. Maybe, maybe I could have saved myself a lot of time and a lot of effort by just

00:45:34.020 taking somebody else's word for it. Not anybody else's, but somebody who's tested and tried and

00:45:39.740 true. And so for me, confessionalism was, um, it wasn't binding. It was freeing. It freed me up to

00:45:45.680 be able to have a sense of safety and security. Um, and, and to not, uh, not be embarrassed. I

00:45:53.300 mean, there were certain moments where it's like, I believe this over here. I believe this over here.

00:45:57.940 And then, you know, eventually in some kind of pastoral situation, uh, it gets pointed out to

00:46:03.040 me by some member of my church that these two things actually are contradicting. And I'm like,

00:46:07.100 oh, no, they are. You're right. And it's like this embarrassing moment. And so, yeah,

00:46:13.100 confessionalism, the 1689 was incredibly helpful for me personally and for our church.

00:46:19.360 Yeah, absolutely.

00:46:20.700 So with that, the 1689 is, you know, it's not a three-page pamphlet. It's about 100 pages in

00:46:28.260 book form, you know, 32 chapters, I believe, right? Is that correct?

00:46:32.400 Yeah.

00:46:32.680 I think it's 32. 32 chapters, covers the Sabbath, covers, you know, the doctrine of the Word,

00:46:37.100 doctrine of the trinity but but more than just your basic general statement of faith like the

00:46:41.480 baptist faith and message it's it's much more in depth than just that um but it doesn't cover

00:46:47.500 everything 1689 doesn't say anything about head coverings that 1689 doesn't say um anything about

00:46:53.440 well about kind of the second half of my question here um two kingdom theology is kind of what i

00:46:59.960 want to get into the 1689 it addresses a little bit like our you know our influence in the world

00:47:04.240 on the pagan culture and those kinds of things, but there's some wiggle room there. And so my

00:47:08.940 question is, does G3 have an official position on two kingdom theology? John MacArthur, to throw

00:47:15.800 him out there, John MacArthur, love him. I know you love him. He famously and rightly said that

00:47:20.860 Christ, not Caesar, is head of the church. Yes and amen. However, I personally would believe

00:47:25.560 and hold that Christians should go a little further by insisting that Christ, not Caesar, 0.68

00:47:30.020 Caesar is also head of the state. I would look at Romans 13. I would say that the state is God's 0.65

00:47:35.920 deacon, the civil magistrate. He works for God, that Christ is over even the state. Now that

00:47:40.500 doesn't mean Christ is head of the state in the same way he's head of the church. He's uniquely

00:47:43.720 head of the church in that he died for her. And he nourishes her, mediates the blessings of the

00:47:49.660 new covenant by his blood for her. But I do believe that in the authoritative sense, in a governing

00:47:55.320 since Christ is head of all things. Thinking of Colossians, thinking of, I believe it's Ephesians

00:47:59.960 1.22, that God has set him up as the head of all things to the benefit of the church. So the church

00:48:05.660 uniquely benefits by Christ's headship over all things, but he's not only head of the church.

00:48:11.220 Uniquely head of the church to benefit the church, but head of all things. So head of the church,

00:48:15.820 yes and amen, but also head of the state. So I heartily would affirm a separation of church and

00:48:20.740 state, but I believe it's high time for Christians to reject the unbiblical notion of a separation 0.84

00:48:26.540 of God and state. I think there's a difference between separation of church and state, good,

00:48:31.060 separation of God and state, no bueno would be my position. So I think that neutrality is a myth, 1.00

00:48:38.240 secularism I think is on its last leg. I think it's time to just go ahead and push

00:48:41.940 that idol over and be done with it and stop pretending. I think it's either Demos is God,

00:48:48.540 You know, the people are God, or God is God.

00:48:52.680 You know, it's either man's morality or it's God's morality, God's law.

00:48:56.260 And I know that, you know, it can be controversial, but I like the way that guys like Doug Wilson, he said, general equity theonomy, right?

00:49:05.780 So, you know, this idea of, and that is in the 1689 Confession, that, you know, as our use of three uses of the law of God.

00:49:13.540 Um, but then also, uh, when it comes to civil law, that, um, the moral law is, is eternal,

00:49:19.480 eternally binding, including the Sabbath. And so chapter 22 talks about the Sabbath,

00:49:23.660 but then with the civil law of God, um, that's, I mean, that's what the apostle Paul uses for me

00:49:28.300 and you to get paid by being pastors. You know, the ox, you know, don't muzzle him. And Oh, by the

00:49:33.480 way, uh, here's how you can apply that, um, to, to pastors and how the, the one who labors in the

00:49:39.840 gospel is worthy of the wages. And so when I look at the law of God and I think, man, it has civil

00:49:45.860 application and it's not a one-to-one ratio. It's not like America replaced Israel. We believe that

00:49:51.240 the church and replaced isn't always the best word to use, but we believe that Israel blossomed

00:49:56.040 into the church and all of ethnic Israel has been invited to join the church. And many have chosen

00:50:01.800 to harden their heart and reject, but they've been invited to join the church. But it was all

00:50:05.300 building up to the church. America is not the replacement for Israel. The church is. And so 0.83

00:50:09.740 it's not a one-to-one ratio of looking at the civil law with Israel and then saying America

00:50:14.020 should do that. But what I would say is that the civil law, it's a two-step process instead of one.

00:50:18.680 You track it back to the moral law of God, the Ten Commandments, and find the general equity,

00:50:23.320 God's blueprint. And then you take that and apply it in a culture, place, and time. And I believe

00:50:28.700 that all nations should do that. And the church has a role, a prophetic role, to call the civil

00:50:33.600 magistrate to do that. And I don't know what theologically, how, what you would refer to that,

00:50:39.880 if that's Kuyperian or, but I, I think that's where I'm at. That's where a lot of our listeners

00:50:44.780 are at. And I'm curious, what is your position? How, how much involvement should the church have

00:50:50.900 in politics? I, you know, John MacArthur has been under fire recently. Ironically, people saying

00:50:55.940 that he's theocratic and theonomic. And I'm like watching those, you know, and I'm like laughing

00:51:00.120 Cause it's like 52 years of this guy, like he's, I think that I would like him to be

00:51:04.920 more of that.

00:51:05.320 I'm like, I wish that was true of John MacArthur, but it's certainly not.

00:51:08.260 So I'm curious, where is Dr. Josh Bice at?

00:51:11.460 And with the G3 network, would that be a distinctive, do you guys have a distinctive

00:51:15.440 position on that issue?

00:51:17.160 Or would that be one of the issues where it's like, that's beyond the 1689.

00:51:20.960 We want to, we want to draw the line here and, and leave room with that.

00:51:26.140 What do you think?

00:51:27.680 Yeah, it's a, it's a great question.

00:51:30.120 Well, as far as the network is concerned, we certainly are not going to draw a line in the sand on two kingdom theology.

00:51:37.720 We're not going to draw a line in the sand as far as a hard line in the sand on eschatology.

00:51:43.880 We would take every church on those issues on a church by church basis. 0.84

00:51:49.400 And we want to, you know, if we have someone that's just swinging swords and they're just post meal all day long, they're probably not going to fit in too well within the G3 church network.

00:52:02.800 However, we just want to be careful not to make that a line of division, because I don't see that, you know, when it comes to a network and, you know, voluntary engagement and involvement in certain projects and things of that nature.

00:52:19.120 It's not going to be something that we want to try to separate over.

00:52:23.320 We want to try to figure out a way to have a healthy church network that can do these things and do those things well.

00:52:29.700 As it pertains to sort of a two kingdom theology, I think a lot of people probably within the G3 church network would probably lean more that direction than they would to more of a, you know, a mono sort of approach on the structure.

00:52:49.120 And I think that the reason is because I think that you can avoid two ditches.

00:52:55.380 And I think there can be a little bit of an abbreviated aspect of even two kingdom theology and a two kingdom theology approach.

00:53:02.680 For instance, if I'm holding more to and I do tend to hold to more of a two kingdom approach, that's not to say that I don't or that I reject that Christ is the head of the state, too.

00:53:15.520 OK, because I recognize that.

00:53:17.660 I also recognize the fact that, as Luther said, that the devil is God's devil.

00:53:23.500 And so we have to sort of think about the way that it's structured.

00:53:28.540 So you think about the sphere of the family and the sphere of the church and the sphere of society.

00:53:35.100 And then you think about the kingdom aspect, naturally born into the civil kingdom, but I'm born again into God's kingdom.

00:53:44.440 now is christ ruling and reigning right now presently from the throne and i believe he

00:53:50.220 said that emphatically himself and i think that he is so that's to say that he is absolutely head

00:53:56.760 of the church and he is absolutely head of the state at the same time but i think we can run

00:54:04.440 into problems when we conflate the two so the ditch on one side would be an over-realized

00:54:10.760 eschatology. I want to avoid that ditch. But then I also want to avoid the ditch of some sort of

00:54:17.260 escapism approach where, you know, people would say, well, you know, the Christian has no right

00:54:23.200 to, to, you know, to speak into the political sphere or to, you know, to hold to one specific

00:54:30.660 political party or candidate and that type of thing. And I would just reject that. I think that

00:54:36.260 you can still hold to a two kingdom approach or even a modified two kingdom approach and still

00:54:42.900 be very vocal and engaged politically but just recognizing ultimately that that christ is is the

00:54:50.560 head of the church and and caesar is not and then you know you think about the pulpit you know you

00:54:56.280 think about the fact that we need to be looking at the the pulpit as this this launching pad of

00:55:03.380 truth. And while the state has been given by Christ the sword, we should never allow for

00:55:12.100 Caesar to have our pulpits. But unfortunately, we see that happening. And we see that happening

00:55:18.600 even in conservative groups that want to sort of have this political rally and all of this kind of

00:55:25.220 stuff. We want to avoid that. So within our own local church here, we're going to try to,

00:55:30.500 when we think about the separation of church and state, that's a loaded statement that's

00:55:35.840 been abused for so long. And I think the liberals have successfully silenced many a Christian and

00:55:42.480 many a church throughout history by that statement. And so I would simply say it like

00:55:48.400 this. I think that if you want to talk about separation of church and state, I would say

00:55:52.920 that type of ideology is to keep the state out of the church, but not to keep the church out

00:56:00.180 of the state right and so that's the way that i would articulate it so in terms of our approach

00:56:06.140 we're not going to kick people out because they don't hold to a a specific two kingdom approach

00:56:12.660 but we do want to make sure that we're close enough in proximity that we can associate together

00:56:17.820 and do missions and church planting together and have good fellowship right now that but i would

00:56:23.360 But also, but I would also urge, I would heavily urge my brothers to think earnestly about what it means to take a stand, to speak up, to speak into the political sphere.

00:56:38.140 I mean, you look at John the Baptist, for instance, John the Baptist was saying, that's wonderful.

00:56:42.700 We've got all these people that are coming out here. They want to be baptized. That's great.

00:56:46.620 But now hang on a second. When you go back, make sure you tell Herod that he should not have his brother's wife. 0.73

00:56:52.900 Amen. So he's speaking into the political sphere. That's right. And I think that we have to recognize that. Amen. Yeah. Amen. Christ, his Christ is king. Christ is king. He wasn't just, you know, he wasn't just, he was born a baby, but he grew up. You know, some Christians still think he's this baby Jesus, you know, but he's, he's, he's a full grown man. He's the God man and he's king and he was born a king.

00:57:20.460 And Herod, I feel like Herod in some ways understood and kind of got the birth of Jesus 0.58

00:57:28.260 better than some Christians in the sense that he was threatened. 0.77

00:57:33.420 He was like, I need to do something about this.

00:57:36.720 And we're so quick to say, well, Jesus, his kingdom isn't of this world, or he didn't

00:57:42.480 come to start a political revolution.

00:57:44.580 But the politicians of his day were afraid.

00:57:48.300 They felt threatened.

00:57:49.580 So we're certain that Jesus had no political ambition, but they weren't certain.

00:57:54.420 They felt threatened.

00:57:56.260 They were worried what's going to happen with this king, not just savior, not just meek and mild, but this king.

00:58:04.280 But what you said about separation of church and state, I completely agree.

00:58:08.340 I understand that clause would be that we shouldn't have a church-run state and we shouldn't have a state-run church.

00:58:13.420 But you're right.

00:58:14.920 I think we're kidding ourselves if we act like it's this equal two-way street.

00:58:19.460 The church rarely, and part of that's an indictment of the church,

00:58:23.580 but the church rarely is forcing the hand of the state.

00:58:27.780 But the state is all too happy to come in and tell the church what to do.

00:58:31.900 And I think part of the reason why the separation of church and state

00:58:34.820 needs to be an extra guard and extra vigilant in keeping the state out of the church 0.84

00:58:39.400 versus worrying about the church getting into the state

00:58:42.120 is because of the nature of the way God set up these two sovereign spheres.

00:58:45.960 to the church like you said so to the church has been given word and sacrament to the church has

00:58:50.180 been given um a sword to be fair um but but it's a spiritual sword it's it's a it's sharper than

00:58:55.860 any double-edged sword but it's a spiritual sword it's it's a persuasion um to the state has been

00:59:00.880 given coercion and there's a difference so we we we plead with men to repent of their sin and to

00:59:06.780 put faith in the lord jesus christ uh we preach that's what the church you know so it's pulpit

00:59:11.600 and sword. And so the pulpit, we're preachers. It's persuasion. And there is a command in that

00:59:19.540 sense, but it's a command that's not coerced. People's response to that command has to be

00:59:25.780 voluntary. It has to be something that they choose to do. God has to change their hearts and make

00:59:31.420 them willing to come. Whereas the state, to be fair to the state, God gave them the sword.

00:59:38.020 And so their ministry is a coercive ministry.

00:59:40.960 It's supposed to be.

00:59:42.100 But because that's the nature of the ministry and the purpose that God instituted the state,

00:59:47.360 because it is by nature coercive, it needs to be involved, in my opinion, in as few things as possible.

00:59:55.000 It needs to narrow its ministry, its purpose, its involvement to what God's word says the purpose of state is actually for.

01:00:06.340 because you know people have said it like this anything the state does it does at gunpoint

01:00:10.680 and it can't help itself you know to again not trying to pick on the state but it can't help

01:00:15.560 itself because it's like well you know that's not true you know the state will do that but yeah okay

01:00:20.460 but just follow the train eventually you'll get to a gun right if i don't pay my taxes eventually

01:00:25.920 eventually someone's going to show up at my door if i resist arrest uh then eventually you know

01:00:30.680 i'm going to find a gun pointed at me you know so one way everything the state says it says at

01:00:35.960 the threat of gunpoint that whereas the church doesn't and so when you have an institution

01:00:40.380 that by design is coercive and and everything it does is with the sword because god gave it a sword

01:00:47.740 it's you know then then that ministry has to be really careful what what it's involved that it's

01:00:54.660 only that it's sticking to the script and the church to be fair has to be careful too that

01:00:58.620 ministers can not with coercion but still even through persuasion can wrongfully bind overly

01:01:04.400 bind the consciences of men um that spiritual abuse is is a legitimate category but the state

01:01:10.040 seems to be doing that far more and so i'm i'm with you the church separation of church and state

01:01:14.660 it's it's regularly being said well christians shouldn't be involved in politics or um i i feel

01:01:20.020 like if if people were you know if john the baptist was here today and says you shall not

01:01:24.200 have her i feel like christians sadly would be the first ones to say well herod um that law that

01:01:30.360 you're referring to is a christian law that doesn't apply to herod and you and i would be like

01:01:34.800 no sir no that's the law of god it's binding on every man every woman every child all places all

01:01:41.080 times um that is the moral law of god and so um and that's that's the 1689 that's not that's not

01:01:47.580 a um parenthetical you know peripheral kind of thing that's a that's a basic confessional

01:01:52.920 belief any any final thoughts uh dr bice before i let you go no i mean i've i've enjoyed the

01:01:59.340 conversation i think that's uh i think you're on point i think that what we're seeing through

01:02:05.320 covet 19 through all the mandates through the overreach of the government we're seeing that

01:02:10.820 you know people who were resistant to the idea of you know any christian involvement in politics

01:02:17.580 that they've actually been forced their hand has been forced into this whole discussion because

01:02:23.740 you know it's not that they went looking for ways to engage themselves in politics but the church

01:02:29.420 actually came walking into the front door of their of their local church the state so it sort

01:02:34.620 came into the local yeah yeah the state yeah the state came into their local church and so

01:02:39.560 what happens at that point is that they they've been forced to rethink these positions and so

01:02:47.880 you know when caesar walks into the front door of your local church and says this is what you have to

01:02:52.280 do. Well, now, you know, you don't have time to, to sit down and parse out all the theological

01:02:57.780 aspects. You need to be thinking about this. So I think my final words would be, I just want to

01:03:03.500 urge my brothers and sisters to be thinking about what's happening in Canada, what's happening as

01:03:08.640 it pertains to the Equality Act that's going to be signed into law probably in the upcoming months.

01:03:16.360 You know, and we would pray that that's not the case, but we're just going to see more

01:03:21.540 and more oppression and pressure from the government upon the church.

01:03:27.700 We're all going to experience it, not only pastors, but all of us in the church will

01:03:31.840 at some level experience this.

01:03:34.400 And we need to be able to speak up to give a defense of our faith.

01:03:40.940 We need to be able to speak to the civil sphere.

01:03:44.560 We need to be able to speak to the political sphere and say, no, we're not going to obey this because our obligation is to obey God rather than man.

01:03:54.680 So we're going to have to be ready to stand when we're called upon.

01:03:58.960 And I think right now we're just seeing just sort of the tip of the iceberg, if you will, for what lies ahead.

01:04:05.000 As far as my eschatology is concerned, I don't I don't see things getting better before they get really bad before they get suddenly really good.

01:04:15.240 So I think that when we think about where we are presently, we need to be prepared to stand.

01:04:22.080 And, you know, the trials of the faith, the Lord being ruler over both of these fears that we've been discussing, he will allow us to experience these trials.

01:04:33.660 but the trying of our faith will, you know, produce this,

01:04:37.980 this patience and this patience ultimately leads us to hope.

01:04:42.520 And so we need to be able to, to persevere, to be steadfast,

01:04:46.560 immovable in the faith for the glory of God.

01:04:48.620 So I want to urge my brothers and sisters in Christ to be thinking critically

01:04:52.280 about what we've been talking about for the last few minutes.

01:04:55.480 Amen. Well, thank you, Josh, for coming on the show. I really appreciate it.

01:04:59.160 My privilege. God bless you.

01:05:01.100 As a special thank you for your gift of any amount,

01:05:03.660 we'll be happy to send you a free digital book from our store.

01:05:06.920 To access this offer, visit rightresponseministries.com slash offer.

01:05:11.740 We highly recommend Pastor Joel's book, Am I Truly Saved?

01:05:15.420 If you or someone you know has wrestled with doubts about the love of God,

01:05:19.180 this would be a great resource.

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01:05:25.480 And thank you for your generous support.

01:05:33.660 Thank you.

The NXR Podcast - February 08, 2022

THEOLOGY APPLIED - How To Decide When To Leave The SBC

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