The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - How To Identify A Cult

00:00:00.000 On this episode of Theology Applied, I was privileged to have both Andrew and Jeremiah,

00:00:05.400 who are co-hosts of the podcast called Cultish.

00:00:08.780 We actually took our interview and broke it up into two parts.

00:00:11.620 This is the first part where we primarily deal with the question of,

00:00:15.600 how do I know if I'm in a cult?

00:00:17.720 How do I know if a loved one is in a cult?

00:00:21.060 We deal with the universal signs that you can look towards to identify cults.

00:00:26.800 Hope you enjoy.

00:00:28.120 Applying God's Word to every aspect of life.

00:00:31.840 This is Theology Applied.

00:00:39.180 All right, welcome to another episode of Theology Applied.

00:00:42.280 I'm joined again by Jeremiah and Andrew from Coltish.

00:00:47.260 They're a part of Apologia Church in Arizona, where it's nice and hot,

00:00:51.620 and soon to be, Lord willing, planting another church, a new Apologia Church in Salt Lake,

00:00:57.900 which is really the kingdom of the cults.

00:00:59.620 But we know that truly, in the ultimate sense, it belongs to the Lord Jesus Christ,

00:01:03.520 who is the King of all kings.

00:01:04.860 And so I wanted to do an episode specifically about cults, how to identify cults,

00:01:10.060 what are some of the most dangerous cults, what are the signs that you might be a part of a cult,

00:01:14.900 what are the distinctions between cults and the Christian faith,

00:01:18.280 all things cultish with the co-host of the podcast cultish so without further ado uh jeremiah and

00:01:25.780 andrew thanks for coming on the show feel free to introduce anything about yourselves you'd like to

00:01:29.240 share um sure well i'm uh jeremiah roberts i'm one of the co-hosts here at cultish if you've

00:01:34.520 listened in and uh yeah so i am i i'm originally from california and but california by origin

00:01:42.280 Arizona by choice I've lived in Arizona pretty much my entire life I the background to even like

00:01:48.840 how cold is a possibility and how this came about is that I ended up going to a charter school I

00:01:55.820 believe going into ninth grade and it just so happened to be about 98 percent Mormon which is

00:02:01.880 actually right not too far away from where we host our services at Apologia Church that whole process

00:02:07.840 began a point where I started to really question and really think through what I'd grown up to

00:02:14.640 believe. This was really the first time kind of being sheltered in homeschooled where I was just

00:02:18.980 in a tribe of people who believed something very different than what I did. And through that

00:02:23.860 process, I got a book. I got a hold of a book of someone you may have heard of, Dr. James White,

00:02:30.300 a book called Letters to a Mormon Elder. That was sort of a really great book, a bunch of fictional

00:02:36.940 letters written to a Mormon missionary talking over a variety of topics. I'm really surprised

00:02:43.020 there haven't been more books written in that format of actual letters, like to a Jehovah's

00:02:48.120 Witness or letters to a Muslim. I'm generally surprised that hasn't been the case. But this book

00:02:52.200 had a huge impact on me. During that time, someone gave me a copy of the giant thick book of I think

00:02:59.980 the fifth edition of Kingdom of the Colts by Dr. Walter Martin. And yeah, and so yeah, then,

00:03:05.100 You know, through that process, I've just had a genuine interest in apologetics, specifically in relation to the world of the cults.

00:03:12.100 And especially when Jeff and I connected, we back in the day, we would listen to Walter Martin on a lot of VHS videos and tape cassettes.

00:03:21.340 And, you know, I can't believe I'm actually saying that should get you an idea for my age.

00:03:24.640 So and so, yeah, that's just kind of a little bit about where I come from and my relation to cultish.

00:03:29.980 And yeah, this is just something that started roughly about two, about two and a half years ago that we relaunched. And I think in many ways, and you'll jump into this too, Andrew, I think I told people too that the success we've had on some level, you know, there's a lot of work and effort you have to continually put in to a podcast.

00:03:50.580 But I think just for the topics that we cover, there's a huge, huge marketplace. And being able to give a definitive Christian apologetic and response to the different topics that are brought up in issues like ufology, the whole UFO alien discussion, the New Age, the occult, Jehovah's Witnesses, Scientology, all those broad variety of topics we cover.

00:04:19.240 There is not much out there that's covering it from a definitive biblical worldview.

00:04:24.780 So I think that is one of the reasons why even people who are atheists or agnostics still appreciate our podcast because they know if we're going to talk about the Branch Davidians or David Koresh or Warren Jeffs or any of the cults that we talk about, they're going to get that Christian worldview.

00:04:42.260 in the same way where if someone listens to Ben Shapiro, they know they're going to get a very

00:04:48.300 fast talking, if you listen to him, conservative view on the topic of the day. So anyways,

00:04:54.260 that's enough of me. You can go ahead, Andrew. Yeah. So yeah, I was born in Las Vegas, Nevada.

00:05:00.560 I moved to Phoenix when I was 13. I've been here for 18 years now. And it was during my high school

00:05:06.320 experience as well when I met, started meeting a lot of people that were from different backgrounds

00:05:10.480 and beliefs because prior to me coming out here, I went to a Calvary Chapel Christian school

00:05:14.640 growing up. So it was sheltered in the sense of coming up against differing beliefs. So

00:05:19.980 in high school, I had a falling away of sorts. I met a lot of people into the new age. I even met

00:05:26.200 many LDS people. It was during this time where I was really formulating, in a sense, the worldview

00:05:32.400 that I grew up in, in terms of actually having and engaging in conversations, even though I wasn't

00:05:37.660 acting out what it really means to be a Christian. Uh, it wasn't until around college when I really

00:05:43.000 wanted to take things more seriously. I remember I picked up the first book I picked up on the

00:05:46.980 cults, uh, besides, you know, reading the Bible and trying to become familiar with the authentic,

00:05:51.060 uh, was Anthony Hecima's four major cults. And, uh, that started piquing my interest really

00:05:57.540 into learning more about these differing beliefs. And yeah, so that, that's, that's how I got into

00:06:04.920 cults and then it was around 2017 when i started going to apologia church and one of the first

00:06:10.000 people i met actually at apologia was jerry and um we just kind of hit it off we started talking

00:06:15.920 and he started talking about cults and started talking about um oneness pentecostals yeah there's

00:06:21.020 some people out there's some people who are oneness apostolic pentecostals and i was meeting up with

00:06:25.960 them and then i yeah so i was like telling them all about the conversation and then you were like

00:06:31.240 taking all these notes i found out that you have this amazing research ability which that's how you

00:06:35.740 sort of became the super sleuth because like oh my gosh you just would have you know 10 is like hey

00:06:39.780 can you look up this one topic and actually know i'd get an email back with about 10 pages of

00:06:43.560 research like 30 minutes later it was funny maybe maybe 45 an hour well i had already been reading

00:06:49.180 the topics before we even started discussing them which is hilarious because i was already going

00:06:53.160 through kingdom of the cults just you know listening to pastor jeff and you know watching

00:06:57.380 apology radio always talking about kingdom of the cults like i gotta buy this book sell my shirt

00:07:01.100 provide the book and um yeah it's just cool how all of that worked out and jerry and i became

00:07:05.080 best friends and we just uh enjoy that yeah yeah that's great yeah cool guys well i it's great to

00:07:12.580 get to know you a little bit i'm sure our listeners are happy to get to hear some of

00:07:16.320 your backstory and i'm honored that you came on the show today so let's go ahead and just dive

00:07:20.040 right in um again kind of a 30 000 foot view i i want to basically i my hope is that this

00:07:27.080 would be kind of a primer on cults and so not really dealing with any one specific cult

00:07:33.460 in detail but cults in general and so that said the first question that I have is this certainly

00:07:39.800 individual cults will vary but are there any universal characteristics any common denominators

00:07:45.780 that we can find across the board that would mark pretty much every cult well I'll start and then

00:07:53.420 you can give me your thoughts Andrew I think one of the things you'll see that's universally

00:07:56.900 is that you will have a it'll be a group of people or an organization either centralized

00:08:03.540 around a charismatic leader that is on some level either a proclaiming deity that they somehow are

00:08:13.520 divine or god in the flesh you've seen that manifested many different times just for the

00:08:18.560 sake of time you know there's a lot of examples we could give or they believe that they are

00:08:24.680 tapped into a source via God, the universe, whatever you want to call it, and they are

00:08:32.720 deriving this revelation. The only way to be in the know, to be in the truth, is through them.

00:08:38.000 So in other words, they're sort of trying to emulate really what Christ warned about,

00:08:43.640 you know, false Christ, false messiahs appearing. So that's usually one characteristic. You'll have

00:08:49.500 someone who is a charismatic leader tapped into some sort of revelatory source. I'll give one

00:08:54.360 more just sociological sociological um you would have a usually like a another characteristic

00:09:02.240 would be a rigid uh restrictions in regards to the uh member about how what they can eat uh where

00:09:10.580 they can live um even like how often they can sleep a lot of times the regulation especially

00:09:16.500 during early recruitment and usually involves a sleep deprivation which gets people a lot of

00:09:22.640 time is into a very vulnerable and suggestible state where they, you know, the love bomb and

00:09:28.240 all that sort of things. But those would be two sociological characteristics. What are some

00:09:32.980 examples you give, Andrew? Yeah, yeah. I'll give some tangible examples of what you just

00:09:37.400 explained. So for example, in terms of charismatic leaders, although they might not be the most

00:09:41.140 charismatic, we can look at the LDS organization, right? We have their prophet that exists today.

00:09:46.300 Let's say they have a special tapping in with God. I mean, in that sense, we actually can see that

00:09:51.820 when there is one of these types of leaders who claims this special knowledge will actually have

00:09:55.760 extra biblical revelation in the form of books, right? We can say the Book of Mormon, Pearl of

00:10:02.460 Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants. We can even go to the Watchtower Track Society and their

00:10:06.540 publication saying that you need to view the Bible through the lens of extra biblical revelation. So

00:10:12.100 I'd say any big red flag to a person would be if someone's coming to you and saying you need to

00:10:19.760 look at the bible in these specific terms given through this rigid set of structure uh from that

00:10:28.480 that roots from an organization or a system or a person and that's a big red flag and typically

00:10:35.120 uh what what will happen is we'll have a distortion of text right so you can go to the lds.org or

00:10:40.560 whatever the website is now or even jw.org and what are the first things that they do when you

00:10:44.720 you look at the website, they redefine who Jesus is, right? They redefine how the church fell. They

00:10:51.940 would say there was a great apostasy, both would claim that. And you'll see that they have to 0.99

00:10:56.320 redefine everything in order to reimplant their worldview. First, they have to make you go, well,

00:11:01.940 does the Bible really say that? Can the Bible be trusted? No, trust me with my revelation.

00:11:07.080 And this is what you need to do to achieve salvation. So anything, which also leads again

00:11:11.420 into a works-based type of salvation model and system where you have to listen to the leader

00:11:16.020 and do as they say right yeah yeah that's really helpful so making bringing people this you know

00:11:23.000 the social aspect bringing them to a place of vulnerability and then and then trying basically

00:11:27.720 breaking them down and then building them back up reshaping them affirming them the love bomb thing

00:11:32.280 that you said jeremiah but then also um this sense of always around one charismatic leader and and i

00:11:38.620 have experienced that where people say, man, I never understood the Bible until so-and-so and

00:11:43.580 still until, you know, so-and-so's teaching. And, you know, if they say, you know, if they're saying

00:11:48.900 someone who's faithful, like until I heard, you know, R.C. Sproul, you know, Jeff Durbin, well,

00:11:53.520 it's really not so-and-so. That's just the first good Bible teacher that they've ever come across.

00:11:57.560 And we have 2000 years of church history. And so that's, that would be different. But, but if it's,

00:12:02.560 you know, this person made the Bible make sense for the very first time. So that's really helpful

00:12:07.760 to hear that it's, you know, it's, it's kind of like, um, multiple steps removed instead of just

00:12:12.060 to the source, uh, the scripture it's, I've got to have this guy working as a lens, my hermeneutic

00:12:17.620 for understanding the scripture and probably also functioning as a priest. Uh, so he's functioning

00:12:22.080 as a prophet, right? He's helping me understand revelation. He's also functioning as a priest,

00:12:26.500 uh, helping to absolve me of my sin and, and, you know, tell me the path and give me my, my works,

00:12:32.160 my penance and those kinds of things. And then ultimately it's strict, rigid guidelines, um,

00:12:37.060 a real absence of grace is is that a good summary i i think that's that that's brilliant it's

00:12:41.820 beautiful that you you pointed out in that sense of how they try to achieve what jesus achieved

00:12:46.640 perfectly because they don't actually give a sacrifice for people's sins instead that

00:12:51.120 wants everyone everyone else to sacrifice things for them uh which is something that i'd point out

00:12:56.340 i think that was a that's good that man yeah and i think that's i'm glad you brought that out too

00:13:01.460 that a lot of times people will go up to even like one of our pastors or jeff turban for example and

00:13:06.560 say wow that's just amazing the way he's doing this expository preaching i've never heard that

00:13:11.140 but again if you're going to a very seeker sensitive friendly church with the 30 minutes

00:13:15.500 of the self-help go and get it all but then all of a sudden it's the first time you're hearing about

00:13:19.500 justification the imputation of christ's righteousness or hearing about the role

00:13:24.640 that the gospel had the gospel of the kingdom that's being proclaimed we've been now in the

00:13:28.940 gospel of matthew i think for i don't know six six seven years we're kind of we're kind of towards

00:13:34.520 the end yeah but what's different though is that when we talk about someone who's revelatory and

00:13:39.640 charismatic that's not the ultimate standard what ends up what you ultimately would have to do is

00:13:44.600 that yeah this person can be can be charismatic they can you know have a have a maybe a magnetic

00:13:50.520 personality that kind of draws you in to hear what they're having to preach but ultimately doesn't

00:13:56.440 line up with scripture so if there is someone if there's a group of people who are following for

00:14:01.520 example a charismatic leader and he's teaching from the bible and he and people are saying wow

00:14:06.080 i've never heard anything like this before something unique that he's saying but it doesn't

00:14:10.480 line up historically with basic christian orthodoxy or maybe he is sort of being honest on the

00:14:18.260 forefront but then once you become a member you start learning the deeper doctrines and through

00:14:23.640 that maybe you find out salvation is actually a 10-step process you have to do or all of a sudden

00:14:30.640 the deity of christ is begins to be questioned well actually we have some deeper doctrine

00:14:36.140 there's always this appeal within the cults and the occult and it's been something that

00:14:41.400 christianity has been at war with since its inception is the aspect of secret hidden esoteric

00:14:47.560 knowledge that is something that the cults always will appeal to so a good biblical pastor will say

00:14:53.160 don't take my word for it test what i say by scripture so even this past week when i was out

00:15:00.020 at the um one of the mormon wards we're doing outreach i would say don't take my word for it

00:15:06.020 like go home and like read this yourself um you don't say this is my word and this is the way

00:15:11.220 this is my way this is my way because i said so so yeah i really appreciate the fact that you

00:15:17.020 brought that up yeah yeah it also sounds like one of the things i'm detecting from you guys is

00:15:22.420 we could probably talk a lot about church polity um so like what you're saying the berean kind of

00:15:28.620 mindset of you know don't just take my word for it but go and test it against the scripture

00:15:32.520 but then also within like a local church one of the ways that christianity would be distinct from

00:15:37.760 cults is at least for you guys and me i know that we're in the reformed baptist tribe and i'm pretty

00:15:43.100 sure apology would hold to the 1689 and i know that i do and so there's you know we have we have

00:15:48.640 chapters in our confession that um that speak to the common suffrage um of the congregation or they

00:15:55.720 speak to the the priesthood of all believers not just one charismatic individual and so

00:16:00.460 in a very real sense uh at least in a reformed baptist church uh the pastor can be removed by

00:16:07.040 by the peanut gallery for lack of a better phrase meaning that you know so they're not just peons

00:16:12.540 they're priests um the congregation matters they're you know it's a big deal to be a member

00:16:17.840 of a church and there is there is a a congregational polity uh to where every christian

00:16:24.560 has a responsibility, but also rights. And I think that's what I've noticed with

00:16:28.400 cults or cult-like churches is big, domineering, charismatic leaders. They love to give

00:16:36.660 responsibility to the people, but I'm always wary when people have lots of responsibility,

00:16:41.600 but they don't also, with that responsibility, possess any rights. And so for the members in my

00:16:47.560 church, hey, man, you're responsible for a lot. It's a big deal to be a part of Christ's bride.

00:16:53.660 The faithfulness and the purity of this church's gospel witness

00:16:57.280 falls ultimately on the elders in a larger sense,

00:17:00.360 but it falls very much on the members as well.

00:17:03.240 And one of the ways that it comes down to your responsibility

00:17:05.880 is because you are the ones who ordain elders,

00:17:09.560 and you are the ones who have the authority to remove them.

00:17:12.200 And so I always express it like this.

00:17:14.660 If I tell somebody, hey, you're responsible for cleaning my house,

00:17:18.080 but I don't give them the keys to get inside,

00:17:21.180 then it just doesn't really make sense.

00:17:23.680 With every responsibility, there has to be a police officer, serve and protect.

00:17:29.180 There's your duty, your responsibility.

00:17:31.240 But then you also equip them with a badge and a gun.

00:17:33.880 There's certain rights and privileges, power that comes.

00:17:37.440 And I see that as a constant theme throughout the scripture.

00:17:40.000 God calls us to something and also gives us the rights, the ability, the power, the enablement to carry out what he's called us to do.

00:17:49.080 He's a good father.

00:17:49.820 he doesn't exasperate his sons, asking them to do one thing, but giving them no power to carry it

00:17:55.520 out. And that seems to be a common denominator in cults. So pushing past that, if somebody was in a

00:18:02.500 cult, all right, so I know you guys have probably addressed many people who would fall into this

00:18:06.840 category, but let's just say that somebody's listening to this episode of the podcast right

00:18:10.360 now and they're in a cult, or perhaps more likely they just, they have a friend or a loved one who

00:18:15.460 they suspect might be a part of a cult. What are some telltale signs that you can, you know,

00:18:22.300 if you were just a list, you know, I wrote in my notes five, but five is an arbitrary number. So

00:18:26.860 whatever number you decide, but are there any clear signs that you can say these are quick

00:18:32.220 identifiers? I know we've already kind of been discussing this, but some things right on the

00:18:35.700 surface that would pop out. So identifiers to say that someone was in a cult? Yeah. So one of the

00:18:43.260 things that you would see is that one of the things that happens initially when someone gets

00:18:48.040 into a cult and you'd see this for example with the moonies and steve hassan who's not a christian

00:18:53.720 but his book combating cult mind control is excellent and i would actually argue that the

00:18:57.980 only reason he can even make a basis for anything within the book is because he's an image bearer of

00:19:03.880 god and he's appealing to the standards that ultimately god gives in regards to how you we

00:19:09.080 are supposed to love your neighbor and love does no harm to its neighbor so while Stephen

00:19:13.600 while Stephen was borrowing from God's standards to come up with a bite model which is behavior

00:19:19.380 control information control thought control emotional control one of the unique aspects

00:19:24.840 when someone gets into a cult it's this conversion experience where it's the replacement of their own

00:19:31.220 unique self and the and the the severing of that and the replacements with the cult identity so

00:19:38.580 one of the ways that you can see that is that usually there is a huge process, especially in

00:19:44.180 the early times of recruitment, there's a lot of indoctrination where they're cut out from any sort

00:19:49.080 of alternative viewpoints. They are cut off from friends and family who disagree. And a lot of

00:19:57.460 times they will just sort of given this level of programming, and you'll see it where a lot of

00:20:04.100 times if you are familiar with whatever cult that it is they'll kind of have these points where

00:20:09.560 they're they're their own unique self and they're being their authentic self and all of a sudden

00:20:13.700 it's like something will switch and all of a sudden they'll start saying some sort of mantra

00:20:18.980 robotically and almost and it's weird too especially you've heard them say something

00:20:25.500 you've heard dozens of other people say and this is just something that pre-programmed this is how

00:20:29.980 you respond. So that would be one example. I think one of the things you have to be very careful

00:20:36.160 about when talking with someone who's in a cult is that they have what would be called a siege

00:20:43.320 mentality. So what they would do is that they would interpret any sort of criticism of their

00:20:50.840 group as unwarranted persecution. So if you come up and just yell out like, you're in a cult,

00:20:58.360 oh my gosh you have to get out like and you just go completely bananas and go cage stage on them

00:21:04.280 they will they will completely throw up a wall they want they don't want to hear anything that

00:21:09.420 you have to say so i think one of the best ways you can uh do something and even walton martin

00:21:16.260 talked about it too where you would just calmly you know it's one your behavior like people there's

00:21:23.060 a saying that says people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care they

00:21:27.380 Cults are usually taught that anyone who is an outsider means them harm in many ways, or they are someone who is a suppressive person, or they are an anti, or they're just something, usually some sort of negative connotation, not just people who are on the outside, but those who are critical of the group.

00:21:46.220 So if we are doing evangelism, we come up to someone who's a Jehovah's Witness, and we're engaging with them, off the get-go, they don't feel very positively towards us.

00:21:57.380 But just the fact there's a smile on your face and that you look them in the eye and you're genuine, there's something just in that that will throw people off. 1.00

00:22:06.760 But another thing, too, is to whether it is just bringing up something in regards to their history or bringing up scripture, a lot of times they are taught to isolate when they're taught their doctrine.

00:22:19.160 me every single cult has something they have to do with jesus or the bible but they always have to

00:22:25.600 have it molded within their image and so and really it's it's really their own idol that they've made

00:22:31.920 but you have to be able to bring up different different questions uh different topics and not

00:22:39.180 but don't do it in the form of like well you believe this right what the best way to do it

00:22:45.120 I would just give one example in the end, or I'll let you jump in here as well, too, is that I would give, ask, not necessarily accuse someone of something, but bring it up through the way of asking for clarification.

00:22:57.280 So if we are talking, for example, about the nature of Jesus Christ, and for example, we're talking with someone who's a Jehovah's Witness who believes that Jesus Christ is Michael the Arking of Jehovah's first creation.

00:23:11.780 you know bring up hebrews chapter and in hebrews when it talks about how christ is superior to

00:23:17.900 angels and or and it says as written let all the angels of god worship him so you would bring up

00:23:24.280 that or if you're dealing with someone who's a oneness apostolic and they're talking about how

00:23:29.100 jesus didn't exist prior to the incarnation and he's just a manifestation well you could bring up

00:23:36.020 John 17, 5, where Christ talks about sharing the glory with the Father before the foundation of

00:23:42.740 the world. When Isaiah 42, 8, God says he will not share his glory with another. And so usually,

00:23:49.360 for example, I would bring that up and just say, well, what do you think about that? Pause. And

00:23:54.780 usually that's the best moment where you can bring up any sort of question in the moment.

00:23:59.180 And it could be anything in regards to scripture. It could be something regarding

00:24:04.160 a certain leader because a lot of times they have the sort of perfect messianic view of whoever the

00:24:11.580 leader is whether it's uh lng white whether it's mary baker eddie whether it's l ron hubbard

00:24:17.100 whatever you want to whatever it is but you bring up a topic and ask through clarification just to

00:24:23.180 get them to think outside how they've been programmed to think and that's usually the

00:24:27.280 best moments because you used to see them almost like that classic like winnie the pooh it's like

00:24:31.640 Think, think. When you get them to get outside of the pre-programmed bubble, that's that's where the place that's where you want to be able to play the game in regards to communicating with people who are in a cult.

00:24:44.340 That's that's beautiful, brother. But one thing that I'd like to mention, too, is if there's someone who is in a cult and they are listening to this and they don't know if they're in a cult.

00:24:52.060 the first thing I'd ask is, do you have peace with God? Do you have peace with God? Because we

00:24:57.280 know that the Bible says that if you do not believe in Jesus Christ, the Christ of scripture,

00:25:03.260 you know, by grace through faith alone in him for your salvation, that you don't have peace with

00:25:09.080 God. And I got to believe what God says about you rather than how you portray yourself to the world,

00:25:14.340 even replacing your identity with the identity of the cult leader. The question is, is do you

00:25:19.060 have peace with god because the bible says you don't if you don't know who jesus is right so the

00:25:23.340 gospel number one is the answer to getting someone out of the cult the only good answer because the

00:25:29.300 secular world doesn't have a great answer we go from one cult to another we like to use the term

00:25:35.120 out of the frying pan and into the fire from the cult of the jehovah's witnesses to the cult of 0.76

00:25:39.140 secularism and secular humanism at large right there's no answer in that it goes from purposelessness

00:25:46.280 to more purposelessness right it goes from not being at peace with god to still not being at

00:25:51.180 peace with god so the question is is do you find yourself a slave do you have freedom christ says

00:25:56.880 when you believe in him that he sets you free free indeed to worship him in spirit and in truth

00:26:02.320 to be who you are truly right while being conformed to the image of christ yet being more

00:26:08.100 the way the lord intended for you to be in right relationship with him right the christian we have

00:26:15.360 the ability to look and test what we believe, right? We can do that. We have the freedom.

00:26:21.540 We have the freedom to look at the Bible when our pastor talks and say, is what he said actually

00:26:26.120 correct, right? Do you not have that ability? Do you have to listen to every single thing this

00:26:32.160 person says? Do you have to do X, Y, and Z to achieve salvation? Do you have to pay for this

00:26:39.120 and to pay for that and do this course and that course in order to gain more knowledge to get

00:26:43.380 you closer up the ladder you know towards this new knowledge if that's the case and i'm sorry

00:26:50.720 you don't have peace with god the ladder never ends jesus died once for all right for our sins

00:26:57.140 that we could have peace with god the gospel is the answer you find yourself a slave set yourself

00:27:02.080 free through the blood of christ that's what i was amen amen no that's great uh how would you

00:27:07.380 respond andrew or jeremiah uh because i like what you were saying in terms of do you have peace with

00:27:12.200 god um my experience though as a pastor is um the individual that i'm asking that question too is

00:27:19.320 not always um the best person to accurately assess whether or not they have peace with god meaning

00:27:27.200 um a lot of non-christians think they have peace and uh and then there are some christians that at

00:27:36.160 times um don't have peace um you know that they are truly regenerate i think you know john bunyan

00:27:43.000 i'm a big fan of pilgrim's progress you know and as you know the the debate is you know when when

00:27:47.640 was he saved you know was it at the wicked gate or was it at the you know the cross and the

00:27:52.240 sepulcher when the burden rolled off of his back and and then there was a moment where he lost his

00:27:56.540 assurance even past um even past the wicked gate past the cross and the three shining ones who came

00:28:02.360 down, and he had to go back, and there were multiple times throughout the journey that

00:28:08.280 Christian, the main protagonist, was not at peace, and then there are many times when

00:28:15.520 those who do not fear God, sadly, are at peace, and I think of even, you know, Amazing Grace,

00:28:22.420 the second stanza, it says, "'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear, and grace my fear

00:28:27.680 relieved. And one of my big concerns for the church and I think our modern generation here

00:28:35.100 in America is that the love of God has been wasted on a generation that's never been taught to fear

00:28:39.940 God. And that a line like that from the famous hymn, Amazing Grace, is completely, it leaves

00:28:47.780 people bewildered. They don't even have the first inclination of what that means. Grace teaching a

00:28:53.540 heart first to fear and then grace relieving that is actually a gracious thing of god to reveal to

00:29:01.720 us his holiness and our sinfulness right the first use of the law it functions as a mirror it shows

00:29:08.120 to us our sinfulness by virtue of reflecting the holiness of god and that it's actually you know

00:29:13.720 these days everything's you know shame is always demonized you know this is a shame-free zone this

00:29:18.640 is a safe space. These are my trigger warnings. Whereas the gospel does not create a people who

00:29:25.340 are immune to shame. It doesn't. I think the gospel creates a community, namely the Church

00:29:30.540 of Christ, that actually heightens shame when there's something to truly be shameful about.

00:29:36.000 There's a grace of shame. But what the gospel provides is a place where that shame can ultimately

00:29:40.660 be dealt with. And so for me as a Christian, I'm no longer just sinning against my maker,

00:29:45.780 my creator. I'm sinning against my savior, the one who gave his life for me. I am, as it were,

00:29:51.040 trampling underfoot the blood of the lamb again. And so my shame has actually increased this side

00:29:58.760 of conversion. And so there are moments of extreme distress and discomfort and anxiety

00:30:04.800 as a Christian. Now, that's not the ongoing perpetual state of the Christian. There is 0.67

00:30:12.220 peace to be found in Christ, to be sure. But there are moments of immense distress,

00:30:17.860 falling under, the Puritans used to say, falling under the fatherly displeasure, right? You're not

00:30:22.380 losing your salvation. He's no longer, God's not reverting back to the stance of being judge. He's

00:30:27.720 still your adoptive father, but you've fallen under his fatherly displeasure. Or like Psalm 32,

00:30:34.160 David says, his hand was heavy upon me. My bones were wasting away inside. And so the Christian

00:30:39.740 can experience, my point is the Christian can experience what subjectively feels like in the

00:30:45.760 moment, a severe loss of peace. And the unbeliever can experience what they perceive due to their

00:30:54.980 blindness. Now, it's a willful blindness, but due to their blindness that ultimately stems from 1.00

00:31:00.940 rebellion, they're lying and suppressing the truth of God and deeds of unrighteousness. But by doing

00:31:05.140 so ignorance is is progressively uh growing from rebellion and and they can be at peace and so so

00:31:14.420 my question is when you ask that person you say are you at peace with god and you know this person

00:31:19.880 is a part of a cult you know that that based off of the fruit of their lives and based off of their

00:31:24.000 testimony there is no way that you could affirm this person's salvation you say are you at peace

00:31:28.340 with god and they smile and say you betcha what do you do yeah well that's that's a good question

00:31:35.800 man let me also just comment as well too like i pilgrim's progress is also one of my favorite

00:31:41.220 books again that's one of the books i grew up watching and reading the abridged virgin dangerous

00:31:45.800 journey which the art the artwork in there is incredible but i think one of the points that's

00:31:51.760 great to show that christians do as you mentioned earlier deal with emotional struggle turmoil and

00:31:57.760 pain uh even post salvation having peace with god and with christ is christians and hopefuls

00:32:03.840 experience at doubting castle when he runs into giant despair and all that happens and i mean

00:32:11.640 i mean he's one of the there's no i don't think there's really any literary person today who

00:32:17.640 would be able to talk about the aspects of what christian hopeful were really dealing with i mean

00:32:24.700 he went right at the point where he's bringing up the fact that they were

00:32:27.860 thinking they were contemplating suicide.

00:32:30.320 The giant bear gave them the noose,

00:32:33.220 the knife or the bottle of poison to end it all.

00:32:37.080 But also it was amazing.

00:32:38.720 There was a whole pile of bones of other pilgrims who had succumbed to three

00:32:44.000 of those things to end that despair. 0.78

00:32:45.740 But in that Christian finds this little key called promise and he uses that

00:32:51.820 to lock the gate.

00:32:52.760 so anyways ah i love pocket yes pocket so um so needs to say what's different between a christian

00:33:01.300 who is struggling with that is that ultimately we have an ultimate standard we have the ultimate

00:33:06.360 point of reference of who we talk to what their basis is i mean that there's a reason why hebrews

00:33:13.520 talks about we have a faithful high priest who is able to have empathy with our weaknesses who

00:33:18.640 was tempted in every way that we were yet without sin it says therefore let us let us go to that

00:33:25.140 throne with confidence that we may find grace in the time of need the cultists on the other hand

00:33:30.420 whether admittedly or unadmittedly they don't have peace with god um and they deal with a lot

00:33:37.860 of those same emotions they're image bearers of god but they don't have an ultimate point of

00:33:43.060 reference if they are good enough so whether or not they admit it there is i don't there's not

00:33:50.560 a cultist in the world who can genuinely look at the claims of christ where he says come to all

00:33:56.460 come to me you who are weary laden and i will give you rest there's no cultist in the world

00:34:02.140 who can genuinely say that yeah you're right yeah absolutely and so what do you think about this

00:34:07.920 jeremiah and andrew would could would this be a good litmus test and i'm genuinely asking

00:34:12.640 These aren't trick questions. You guys really, you know your stuff on this topic far more than

00:34:17.400 I do. And so I'm learning along with our audience with this episode. And so I'm grateful for the

00:34:22.100 opportunity. So I genuine question, would this be a decent litmus test to say, do you have peace

00:34:28.640 with God? And let's say the person says, oh yeah, you betcha. And could, could you maybe say, you

00:34:34.220 know, do you have, do you have a sense of peace when you read the Bible? Have you ever read the

00:34:41.940 bible you know maybe start with that but then i challenge you you know would you be willing to do

00:34:45.580 this would you be willing just as a test would you be willing to read the bible or i for me i would

00:34:51.140 go to first john you know because i think first john for the christian is just shot i call it

00:34:56.000 shotgun assurance you know it's just you know it's like all these different tests but the point is

00:35:00.340 because if someone's a christian they're going to have at least some fruit in one of these areas

00:35:04.580 it's shotgun assurance so it's not like you've got to be this tall in this area in this area

00:35:08.180 and if you don't measure up in any of them, you're not saved. No, like, I mean, John, he says

00:35:13.420 expressly, you know, his point in the gospel of John is I write to you so that you might believe,

00:35:16.940 but in 1 John, I write to you so that you might know, right? And there's a difference between

00:35:20.460 believing and knowing that you believe, knowing that you have eternal life. And so his point is

00:35:25.960 assurance, it's shotgun assurance. But I remember in my life, before conversion, thinking that I was

00:35:32.400 a Christian and professing Christian, raising the church, but before conversion, reading 1 John,

00:35:36.500 and it was my least favorite book in the Bible.

00:35:38.700 It terrified me.

00:35:39.720 I could not, you know, because it was just, you know,

00:35:41.920 just statement after statement.

00:35:43.200 And so my question again is just,

00:35:45.100 would that be a good test or would that be too accusational?

00:35:48.800 Would it be too aggressive?

00:35:49.900 Would it turn them off?

00:35:50.660 But if you just said, all right,

00:35:51.980 so you say you have peace with God,

00:35:53.420 you know, I really hope that that's true.

00:35:55.660 And I don't know your heart.

00:35:57.420 You know, man looks at the outward appearance,

00:35:58.740 God sees the heart.

00:35:59.640 But here's a good test that I've personally used

00:36:01.580 and maybe you might find it useful as well.

00:36:03.700 There's a book of the Bible

00:36:04.840 that is actually written with the express purpose of the Holy Spirit inspiring the apostle

00:36:10.700 to give peace to those people who truly belong to God, to give them a sense of assurance,

00:36:17.660 affirmation, and peace in their security in their relationship with God as their father.

00:36:23.500 And yet this book of the Bible is written so beautifully and poignantly in the inspiration

00:36:30.320 of God himself, that if somebody is not a child of God, this book of the Bible oftentimes creates

00:36:37.540 despair. Would you be willing to read that book of the Bible? And just as you're reading,

00:36:42.560 just see, does it give you hope? Does it give you peace? Or does it make you really worried?

00:36:49.500 Would that be a decent test? Yeah, man. I think pointing people back to the Word of God

00:36:55.280 in general is amazing right god does the work in people's lives you plant seeds god waters them he

00:37:01.120 does the work and i think one good thing too about even just thinking about the question do you have

00:37:05.040 peace with god because even if someone replies yes the answer can be well how do you have peace

00:37:09.960 with god right and then if you have peace with god through x y and z relying on yourself and

00:37:15.560 your external means you then are actually in slavery right not slavery by christ but uh then

00:37:22.080 you can point them to to the beauty of the word in first john then you can point them to the law

00:37:26.800 and say do you really this is who god is this is his nature this is his character you're made in

00:37:31.780 the image of god so regardless of what you say about yourself you want these great things these

00:37:36.520 great attributes of god yet you've been deceived you know that's good andrew thank you all right

00:37:42.080 so go ahead did you want to say something yeah and just one other thing walter martin always say

00:37:46.420 when someone would say i believe in jesus walter martin always say well i always can interact by

00:37:51.120 saying which one right that's that's something as well too because every single cult every world

00:37:57.100 religion they have to have jesus on their team but they all deny that he is jesus christ come

00:38:03.980 in the flesh second person of the trinity come to die for lost souls so that is something when

00:38:11.720 you when you get down to it there's always what you would call to a language barrier

00:38:16.060 so if someone is talking about obtaining peace or believing in god or talking about a higher power

00:38:23.820 whatever you call it they mean something substantially different than biblically what

00:38:29.560 we think is christian so you're talking to a mormon many times they're speaking mormonese

00:38:34.800 where we would be speaking christianese or if you're talking to a scientologist

00:38:38.780 Scientology's

00:38:40.640 Hepatology

00:38:41.820 There's a unique

00:38:45.640 language barrier when there's certain things

00:38:47.780 that would

00:38:49.740 appeal to them and so

00:38:51.600 one of the ways like Walter Martin would

00:38:53.700 utilize the gospel in relation to Scientology

00:38:56.180 Scientology's their

00:38:57.700 ultimate mission would be to go clear

00:38:59.680 to go up the bridge to total freedom

00:39:01.560 so at the very end of Walter Martin's

00:39:03.700 lecture on Scientology

00:39:05.080 he says

00:39:06.220 no one has ever made it clear

00:39:09.140 in Scientology. The only

00:39:10.920 people who have made it clear are the ones who have

00:39:12.900 gone to the foot of the cross

00:39:14.460 and have been touched by the hands of Jesus of

00:39:16.860 Nazareth. So he took 0.91

00:39:18.680 their language and used

00:39:20.840 it in a way to articulate the gospel

00:39:22.820 because everyone knows in

00:39:24.800 Scientology, even the people who are the

00:39:26.540 OT7s or the, I think it's, 0.99

00:39:28.480 was it OT9s?

00:39:29.760 It keeps going up. Yeah, the OT

00:39:31.540 infinity. All of them 1.00

00:39:33.500 know that when they got to these certain levels

00:39:35.620 and they paid hundreds of thousands of dollars they are just as broken just as needy uh hungry

00:39:42.800 forgotten in need of god but they are given this religious system in its place and uh and so yeah

00:39:49.100 you always want to figure out what is their language and how do you how do you articulate that

00:39:54.400 in such a way to where they understand the gospel like there's a guy who is a guru and he would talk

00:40:01.100 about um understanding and um but it was someone who was who was new age and so i was talking with

00:40:08.060 someone i said well when i interest the only way when i understand my understanding tells me that

00:40:13.920 i'm a sinner and i'm in desperate need of a savior and there's nothing good within me and like i just

00:40:19.520 i have to look outward to christ and so that's a way you can utilize their language and all of a

00:40:26.700 sudden and they'll get that because the bible says they will because they know god and they're

00:40:30.700 suppressing the truth and unrighteousness so you have to be called that's there's also an aspect

00:40:35.500 to a presuppositionalism where we have our pre-commitments they have their pre-commitments

00:40:40.320 unbeknownst that they're imaging god so we do have someone of a higher ground and advantage point

00:40:45.660 so that's yeah that's just something where you can utilize that they you know that they know

00:40:50.820 god they're suppressing the truth and unrighteousness and they know they're sinners

00:40:55.060 And regardless of whether they believe it or not, the Word of God is a two-edged sword.

00:41:02.540 And just because someone is holding a broad sword over you and says, I don't believe in that sword, doesn't mean, like, okay.

00:41:08.400 I think Vodibachia said, I don't believe in that sword.

00:41:10.060 Okay.

00:41:11.380 Right.

00:41:13.520 No, that's good.

00:41:15.560 I like what you said, you know, Walter Martin saying, you know, if you believe in Jesus, which one?

00:41:21.660 And it always makes me think of, I know I can't endorse the movie.

00:41:25.660 It's not really an appropriate movie.

00:41:26.880 But there was one scene that I just, I can't get out of my head.

00:41:29.620 I watched it when I was a lot younger.

00:41:31.020 But Talladega Nights, right?

00:41:33.120 Jesus, I like my Jesus to wear a tuxedo t-shirt.

00:41:35.820 It says he's both formal and he likes to party.

00:41:37.920 I like my Jesus to be on the front row of a Led Zeppelin. 0.98

00:41:41.420 And it's this blasphemous, ridiculous scene. 0.93

00:41:44.860 But there's a lot of truth when you think of our culture today 0.94

00:41:47.480 that just everybody has a different version of Jesus.

00:41:50.000 Which one?

00:41:51.660 which one so um okay so all that being said what would you do if you know when because i you know

00:41:58.500 i get this accusation from time to time what do you do when someone says uh christianity is a cult

00:42:03.440 yeah what's the difference so what are some clear distinctions that you could equip our listeners

00:42:08.660 with to say here are some tenets of christianity that are an absolute contradiction to the tenets

00:42:15.020 of a cult right so one of the things too is that we are in a post-modern culture so words aren't

00:42:21.140 much about substance and fact as much as they are impact words about how this is about how it makes

00:42:27.380 you feel so it's an emotional impact word versus something that's intellectually this is how you

00:42:34.420 are supposed to this is this is how it is so one of the ways is that every cult definitively they

00:42:42.380 they veer away from they they veer away from some sort of form of their orthodoxy and they always

00:42:48.800 they always appeal to some form of private esoteric revelation without any sort of external

00:42:55.880 verification they're the ultimate pinpoint and authority so one of the amazing things is that

00:43:01.320 you know god's revelation is always consistent in christianity with his character so god is triune

00:43:07.800 his father son and holy spirit so his very nature is congruent with the standards that he gives

00:43:14.020 for revelation and truth talking about everything has to be confirmed by two to three independent

00:43:18.800 lines of testimony and witness so god's very own self-revealing nature is two to three independent

00:43:25.460 you have two to three independent witnesses love it and so what you end up seeing within

00:43:30.860 biblical christianity is not just not just myths or some sort of weird abstract vision but we're

00:43:38.220 talking about historical places uh historical people written over thousands of years that were

00:43:46.060 as as bodi baca would say this is a god's the revelation of the bible which we would say is

00:43:51.720 the ultimate standard because every cult is a distortion of that is that it's a reliable

00:43:56.920 collection of historical documents that was written by eyewitnesses during the a lifetime

00:44:01.520 of other eyewitnesses who witnessed supernatural events in fulfillment of specific prophecy

00:44:07.920 so all of that being said one of the definitive characteristics is that the bible is an open book

00:44:15.520 it's an open it's an open and public record of these events that transpired in the public sphere

00:44:22.060 and so in that way that would be something that would be alternative we're not saying hey we have

00:44:27.920 this secret hidden esoteric knowledge this is something that was privately revealed to me

00:44:32.400 no i i have a relationship with the living god but you know what it's not just because i say so

00:44:37.880 this is because I have a standard that I appeal to that's an external reliable collection of

00:44:44.320 historical documents like why do you think of all as much as you know just jumping into the

00:44:49.440 evidential world as many manuscripts and evidence that we have in regards to the bible why is it the

00:44:55.480 most attacked historical book on earth as far as any book of history why is it the most scrutinized

00:45:02.020 the most attacked how come no one holds the writings of plato or socrates to the same

00:45:08.260 standard of scrutiny that they do to the bible even though we have something with it for century

00:45:12.460 so yeah there's that aspect and one of the things you also see too is that in with real

00:45:19.020 christian apologetics and the real christian worldview especially if you just look at the

00:45:24.100 first century, you would see not this sort of isolation of members, you know, we're going to

00:45:32.140 isolate you from everyone else and indoctrinate you. No, we are going to go out to the world and

00:45:38.100 we're going to challenge every single worldview out there and tear down every stronghold and

00:45:43.140 set up and, you know, and take every thought captive against anything that sets itself against

00:45:47.520 the knowledge of God. And you see Paul, for example, when he is going to Athens and he is

00:45:53.100 reasoning with the other worldviews he's going and talking to the stoics the philosophers to

00:45:58.560 going to the synagogues and engaging them in the public sphere cults don't do that they try and

00:46:04.300 isolate people they try and appeal towards secret hidden esoteric knowledge and they don't allow

00:46:09.920 they don't allow questioning they don't allow that and real honestly like real christianity

00:46:16.620 like it allows for that like bring bring the biggest thoughts like wrestle with this

00:46:20.940 this is something that would be that would be like that would be a big aspect as well too

00:46:25.140 and so i think yeah i think and ultimately like the biggest challenge that i honestly at some

00:46:32.080 point we are going to dedicate an episode to this because when you have someone who's atheist or

00:46:36.740 agnostic and we get this and i don't know sometimes we sort of make fun of it but i want to do more

00:46:42.400 than that just because we are limited for time but we consistently get reviews on itunes called

00:46:48.700 we're another cult talking about cults and it's like wow this is so stunningly original this is

00:46:54.160 the 20 this is the you know it gets kind of old after the 50th time or however many times we've

00:46:58.700 gotten reviews like that but the reality is is that for someone who is who is an atheist or

00:47:05.040 a naturalist what how do you even give an accounting for what is or isn't a cult what

00:47:13.080 exactly is wrong with my brain fizzing a certain level of knowledge which is just my perception

00:47:19.860 of the world in which i was born and once and i'm blind pitiless and difference and and yeah like

00:47:28.640 how how can you how can you give an accounting for like what what's the ethic what ethic am i

00:47:34.100 violating or what ethic was jim jones violating when he is his brain was fizzing the way that it

00:47:40.960 was and got 915 other people's brains to fizz and take down this other fizz called potassium

00:47:47.520 cyanide and killed 915 people in Jonestown, Guyana. Now, I have a basis as a Christian to say, yes,

00:47:53.220 those people were image bearers of God. The one that says, do not bear false witness. Thou should

00:47:58.720 not murder. Love does no harm to its neighbor. There's rules in which in the world that God

00:48:06.600 created and you have to live by that. And if you don't have that standard, well, you're not going

00:48:12.040 to be able to give an ultimate accounting for that. And I think that's one of the reasons why

00:48:16.020 most of the quote unquote experts in regards to the world of cults, whereas Rick Allen Ross or

00:48:22.700 Steve Hassan, while they can give sort of a general explanation of this sociological and

00:48:29.580 psychological manipulation and sometimes the deprogramming that people have to do they don't

00:48:36.440 have an ultimate point of reference where they can give an accounting for why that's even an

00:48:41.900 issue to begin with or why what because the the existence of a counterfeit predicates the

00:48:48.320 authenticity of an original um for sure so those are just some of my initial thoughts but ultimately

00:48:54.780 I would argue that the Christian worldview is a public record versus a

00:49:00.500 private revelation,

00:49:01.400 which is the difference between every single occult occultic leader.

00:49:05.460 And then also to argue the impossibility of the contrary,

00:49:09.480 there's no other worldview that can give a fully holistic explanation for

00:49:14.100 the world of the cults and the counter and the counterfeits as Walter

00:49:17.760 Martin would say,

00:49:18.540 the existence of a counterfeit predicates the authenticity of an original

00:49:22.160 and no other secularist who approaches that has the ability to do that because they're not giving

00:49:27.420 uh they're not paying homage to the ultimate authority which is uh the king of kings and

00:49:31.900 lord of lords jesus christ so yeah dude i got nothing to say jerry bro i want you to drop mic

00:49:38.840 okay let's drop mic no praise god there's nothing i can't do well guys i really appreciate your time

00:49:44.780 and i know that you've probably already given me enough any final i'll give you guys the last word

00:49:48.060 Any final thoughts that you'd like to add?

00:49:51.320 No, I just think that this topic is incredibly unique.

00:49:56.240 It's a very unique place that we've been placed in. 0.80

00:49:58.280 I think especially if you are a Christian, I would say if you don't have it, get Dr. Walter Martin's Kingdom of the Cults. 0.63

00:50:06.180 I would say just listen to his lectures online. 0.74

00:50:09.180 And he was really speaking about a lot of these different new cults, new religions, things in regards to UFOs, extrasensory perception.

00:50:20.640 He was so ahead of its time.

00:50:22.240 I guess they get Kingdom of the Cults.

00:50:24.540 Just look, just start listening to his lectures on YouTube, like get equipped, because this is the Kingdom of the Cults is only going to explode given the state of the world right now.

00:50:34.500 I mean, historically, cults have always exploded during times of uncertainty. And if 2020, that was one thing I thought through, I said, I don't know where this is all headed. But this is just going to be the fault, the nuclear fallout of all this is going to be just a plethora of brand new cult leaders, as you mentioned a long time ago, once a little Jim Jones is like running around.

00:50:59.900 And as Christians, we need to be able to give an apologetic and give an answer to people.

00:51:07.560 Otherwise, they may end up face down somewhere else, another jungle in another Jonestown.

00:51:12.000 So this is serious stuff.

00:51:13.960 We have the slogan and the teacher about theology hurts people.

00:51:16.880 It is a serious thing.

00:51:18.860 You know, outside of just the show, I'm a deacon and I've had to sit on meetings and hearing horrific stories of people who have gone through horrific spiritual abuse.

00:51:28.680 And, you know, you see that the wherewithal like this is like this is serious. This is a serious game. This is not something to play around with. There's a reason, you know, when you think about the apologetic answer in 1 Peter 3.15, you know, give an answer for everyone the hope that is in need, but with meekness, gentleness and compassion or reverence in the way that it says it and respect is that that's really like that.

00:51:54.060 that's like the warning that's the warning on a desert the desert eagle has a warning label and

00:51:58.880 that's really what it is i mean that's you're wielding something that's powerful and you need

00:52:04.820 to do it with carefulness as well too and there's and that's what the cult leaders do they they

00:52:08.920 ignore the instructions they wield it in a way uh that the instructions don't say and it harms

00:52:14.320 people so as christians we have even more of a responsibility to do it in the correct way so

00:52:19.420 So those are my thoughts.

00:52:20.840 Anything else you have to say?

00:52:21.780 No, brother.

00:52:22.660 That was beautiful.

00:52:24.020 That's good.

00:52:24.720 Great.

00:52:25.300 Great, guys.

00:52:25.860 Thanks so much for coming on the show.

00:52:27.200 I really appreciate it.

00:52:28.140 God bless.

00:52:29.120 Awesome, man.

00:52:29.600 God bless you, too.

00:52:30.180 Thank you, man.

00:52:30.980 Awesome.

00:52:32.500 As a special thank you for your gift of any amount,

00:52:35.060 we'll be happy to send you a free digital book from our store.

00:52:37.840 To access this offer, visit rightresponseministries.com slash offer.

00:52:43.400 We highly recommend Pastor Joel's book, Am I Truly Saved?

00:52:46.520 If you or someone you know has wrestled with doubts about the love of God,

00:52:50.540 this would be a great resource.

00:52:52.520 As a reminder, to get this offer, go to rightresponseministries.com

00:52:56.040 slash offer.

00:52:56.840 And thank you for your generous support.

The NXR Podcast - July 28, 2021

THEOLOGY APPLIED - How To Identify A Cult

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