In this episode, Pastor Joel Webin is joined by Rachel Jankovic to discuss the problems she sees with women's ministry in our local churches. Rachel is a writer, blogger, and podcaster. She has been a Christian for over twenty years and is a wife and mother to seven kids. She is also the author of the book, "You Who?" and hosts the podcast, "The Bible Reading Challenge." In this episode of Theology Applied, Pastor Webin and Rachel discuss how women in the church have gone wrong.
00:00:29.360So I feel like Rachel has a lot to say about this. She's spoken about this in her writing, her blogs, her podcasting, all those kinds of things. And so I'm really excited and honored and privileged to have her as a guest. So without further ado, Rachel, could you tell our audience a little bit about yourself?
00:00:46.340sure thanks for having me glad to be here and i am a wife and mother that's that's what i do with
00:00:54.360my life i'm married to luke we have seven kids ages almost 16 down to almost five um so most of
00:01:02.240my life what i'm doing is feeding people taking people to school doing the laundry that's that's
00:01:07.200really what i do um but i also have written a few books for mothers and then followed that up with
00:01:14.020a book on identity because of how many identity problems I was seeing among Christian mothers.
00:01:20.220When they would ask questions, I think, actually, you just don't understand what it means to
00:01:23.680be a Christian and what your life is supposed to be like and what you're for.
00:01:28.000That one's called You Who, and then I'm heavily involved in the Bible Reading Challenge and
00:01:32.700just trying to be a faithful Christian wife and mother here in Moscow, Idaho.
00:01:53.380I would say I think that women's ministry probably started as like a women's auxiliary type event in churches,
00:02:02.420meaning that women were getting together to work on behalf of the church.
00:02:07.540Like, you know, you think of wartime things or even trying to earn money for the organ or, you know, whatever it was that they were doing, women were getting together to work together.
00:02:17.560And that was that was the goal. Well, as our culture, things have really shifted.
00:02:22.940So if you think about that old, old school kind of women are sewing quilts and crocheting baby blankets for the needy.
00:02:30.440Well, that's less likely to be needed now. Right.
00:02:33.440We don't need we don't actually need people to be crocheting the blankets because we have mass produced things we have.
00:02:39.980You know, like the situation, the cultural situation changed.
00:02:44.260So what I think happened is you still had this women getting together.
00:02:48.340But we but we made the women in the church themselves the work of the women in the church.
00:02:54.480So instead of women working shoulder to shoulder for the kingdom and for the gospel, it turned into a circle where we're facing one another.
00:03:47.680No, and I actually have, I serve on what is effectively our women's ministry in our church.
00:03:54.880and we but I can say that it's a tremendous blessing of fellowship for women to be working
00:04:02.260together towards something so I'm not suggesting that we discard the ways that women get to know
00:04:09.080each other the ways that we support one another the ways that women can be thoughtful of one
00:04:13.140another but the focus of what we're trying to do has an awful lot to do with how healthy that kind
00:04:19.080of support will be, right? Like how healthy, how actually God-centered, how actually encouraging
00:04:26.700the health is. So you asked me, I mean, I only said one thing that I think has gone wrong. But
00:04:32.440if you think about this system we've made where the women are all facing each other, and you have
00:04:36.940women in charge whose job it is to have needy women in the church, right? It's essentially a
00:04:43.780welfare system like they would think that the women's ministry is failing if nobody shows up
00:04:49.760for it but if all the women are not desperately emotionally needy and they don't need to go
00:04:55.300they're like i don't need to show up for this moment because they're not needed to work it's
00:05:00.580like therefore they're consumers of ministry right they're supposed to come and receive something
00:05:07.560that will bless them if they're not coming that would be seen as a failure right of somebody but
00:05:13.600But the reality is they might just be doing well, they might be spiritually healthy, and that that would kill off the women's ministry in some ways.
00:05:22.280And the other way is that problem that you end up with women teachers, where the godly women in the church become sort of the pastors for women, instead of themselves being the most hospitable, the most, you know, like, instead of them pursuing the roles that women are called to,
00:05:43.600They are turning into like the pastors for the women church in the church.
00:06:27.540And that is the thing is that there's, wow, women are in this circle, pouring out their grief and supporting one another in their messes and their tangles.
00:06:37.880And they're like, just hear it and feel it with one another.
00:06:40.680nobody's going anywhere so they're actually still missing what they need desperately which is the
00:06:47.080companionship of fellow travelers yeah but there's no trajectory so they think they're happy they
00:06:53.460think they're getting it but they're still missing what they're longing for if that makes sense yeah
00:06:58.700it sounds like what you're saying is women godly women need a mission and and it doesn't need to
00:07:04.140be focused on themselves but like what are we doing together and i always think about like
00:07:08.920it's not like men are called to work and women aren't we just have two different arenas where
00:07:13.320we're called to work and men in many ways work outside of the home with provision and protection
00:07:19.600whereas women are called to work in the home but it's still working there's still a mission and if
00:07:25.560if women aren't thinking in terms of mission or working then it just yeah it just becomes kind of
00:07:30.880this this love fest of you know you're amazing you're awesome and that's what women's ministry
00:07:35.300consists of rather than you have a mission. Are you doing it well? If so, okay, I'll see you on
00:07:40.780the Lord's day when the pastor preaches to us because you're healthy. And if you're not doing
00:07:44.460it well, then let's, let's, you know, as an extracurricular, not a substitute to the Lord's
00:07:48.880day to being a part of this local church, but extracurricular, let's, uh, let's get an older
00:07:53.680woman around you to help beef up your, you know, your, your success in fulfilling your mission
00:07:59.240at home. Would you agree with that? Yes. Yes. I think I would mostly agree with that. The one
00:08:06.320thing I would say is that I do think men and women are called to different areas, but I don't think
00:08:11.400husbands and wives are called to different areas. They're called to be a godly household and
00:08:18.520building, you know, for the kingdom, it's a kingdom building calling that a husband and wife
00:08:23.820share. The actual roles are different, but it's not like what I'm doing at home is not my husband's
00:08:31.740sphere. It's, it's what I'm doing with him unto the Lord. So it is different in the sense that,
00:08:39.060yes, I think I'm called to different, I'm called to different work than he is, but it's not like
00:08:44.660they don't overlap. Like I'm called to this and he's called over there and we're not actually
00:08:49.800called to the same life together that's helpful so you're pushing back on like what i said in terms
00:08:54.360of okay we have two different the difference between men and women is we have two different
00:08:58.040spheres because you're right i i should clarify it's less of that it's more of no like we're both
00:09:02.840trying to build the kingdom by building godly households and so it's not so much we're working
00:09:07.480in two different spheres but but we're working in two different ways you're doing one thing
00:09:12.200and i'm doing another yeah exactly so it's the same but i would say my husband and i so i think
00:09:18.680it's an important distinction that what i'm doing at home i'm doing as his helper i'm not doing it
00:09:24.760i'm not doing it because this is my work i'm doing it because this is his work and he and god has
00:09:30.440given him me to help him get this accomplished so that is it is different as far as it's not as
00:09:37.700i don't think that the home is like the woman's domain like the woman is stuck here i think it's
00:09:43.840my domain. Like God has called me to do this work on behalf of us as a family and his people.
00:09:50.480That's really good. I've heard it said before, I can't remember the exact reference, but I've
00:09:54.520heard it said that, um, that a woman is always like similar to what your dad has said with
00:10:00.180Doug Wilson, uh, in terms of like a man, even his absence, uh, he's still, no matter what,
00:10:05.360he's the head of his home. And, uh, and so whether that's an empty chair or a abusive chair at the
00:10:10.600table or a godly chair either way he's the head of his home he's just he's a good one or a bad one
00:10:15.340in the same way would you would you i've heard it said that a woman is always going to be the
00:10:20.720helpmate of a man it's either going to be her husband or it's going to be she's going to be
00:10:25.120building the household of her husband or she's going to be building if she works for some company
00:10:30.260she's nine times out of ten building another man's kingdom she's she's she's she's helping
00:10:37.160a man build something as his helpmate. And what we want to encourage women to do is
00:10:42.840use that energy, use those gifts, use that love and everything that God's given you to build up
00:10:48.400your husband's, his house. Would you agree with that statement? I don't know. I actually think
00:10:54.520I'm thinking as you say that, I don't know that I would say that in the same way that there's no
00:10:59.700exceptions that that's what would be happening. But I think it's very typical. I mean, that's
00:11:06.400that that's that chesterton quote right about the million women who rose up and said we will not be
00:11:13.160dictated to and became stenographers like like don't tell me what to do i'll be your secretary
00:11:20.080right just it's hilarious but but yes i believe that that's often the case but i don't know that
00:11:26.840i'd want to say that's a universal gotcha so so you want to say it's as universal as a man being
00:11:32.900the head of his home. But you would be willing to admit that there is an irony that often
00:11:38.120seems to be true. Oh, yeah, totally. Yeah, that's typically the case, for sure.
00:11:42.220Fair enough. Okay, so here's another question. How can pastors who biblically should be male,
00:11:47.320how can they effectively love and shepherd 50, typically 50% of their church, namely the women?
00:11:56.460Okay, so when it comes to women's ministry, I sometimes make this distinction that I think
00:12:01.620women should be thinking in terms of a ministry of women. What can we do together that is a
00:12:08.060ministry versus there's really only one ministry of the church and it's for men and women, right?
00:12:15.040The ministry of the word and sacrament. That's not something that is for men only, right? So
00:12:21.360because the office of preaching and pastoring is for men biblically, that doesn't mean that
00:12:28.080it is only effective for the men in the congregation. It's for all of God's people,
00:12:33.100including, you know, children, women, everyone should be under the faithful teaching of God's
00:12:37.960word. And that's really the ministry. The one ministry of the church is that. So I would say
00:12:44.000the most critical thing is for a pastor to be faithfully preaching God's word, faithfully
00:12:50.780teaching God's word. And one of the most common ways that pastors don't love the women in their
00:12:56.980church is by being afraid of them. And I think that that, that I have joked sometimes one of
00:13:02.220the best things, my husband, one of the most wonderful things about my husband is how he's
00:13:06.440not at all afraid of me. And what I mean by that is that it's a real mercy to women in a church
00:13:13.960when the pastor is not afraid to say something that might upset some women in the church are
00:13:19.600afraid to, because I think this has been a really bad little cycle that we've gotten into. The
00:13:25.240pastor's afraid to directly address women in the congregation. And because he's afraid to directly
00:13:32.160address women, like because he's not a woman, because the women will, you know, in a lot of
00:13:37.920places there will be huge outcry and the women will get their husbands mad and every, you know,
00:13:42.040it'll turn into a big scene if he addresses the women. So then what they end up doing is they
00:13:47.280have a bunch of women who need something. So then they start a women's ministry where the whole
00:13:52.640premise of why they're asking a woman to do it is because we don't want to say a thing that
00:13:57.440actually addresses the women so then you have created this bizarrely emotional situation where
00:14:04.120we we exist to serve the emotions of the women in the church rather than the church exists or that
00:14:11.380the preacher is preaching because he serves god and his word right and the and the people are
00:14:16.900called to come under that and obey god's word instead it's like well we'll start a whole other
00:14:22.160branch of things where we won't say the hard things to women. And I, and I think that that's
00:14:27.120just, it really, really belittles women to think that, that godly Christian women cannot hear
00:14:35.660God's word preached and apply it to their life and actually be as encouraged by that as, as men
00:14:42.780are. Yeah. No, you're right. It's demeaning to women that they won't be as edifying. They won't
00:14:49.620be as encouraged, but also that they, um, that they can't, they can't handle it, right. That
00:14:56.060they don't handle it. If God's word says something to you, that's right. So like, I mean, if I, it's
00:15:01.540so funny how, you know, like, I mean, if you just do like a YouTube search for like courageous
00:15:06.480preachers and courageous sermons, um, you know, like it's so often, if I had a dollar for every
00:15:14.200time i hear some pastor you know just railing on the men in the church you know you you're sleazy
00:15:21.380lazy you know you're with your porn problems yeah exactly you're lazy yeah exactly you're boys who
00:15:28.620can shave right if you know if we had a dollar like amen amen and i'm thinking i'm thinking
00:15:34.180that's courageous it doesn't sound like it took much courage because i hear a roaring applause
00:15:39.880in the background. Um, you want to hear a pastor get up there and say, I know you're being lazy
00:15:45.180housewives and you're disrespecting your husband. Yeah. It's not going to go over something. Right.
00:15:49.140That would take some courage. I would take like, when, when I, when I want to be inspired by
00:15:54.000courageous men, I like to read, you know, just the first chapter of Amos that starts off with,
00:15:59.180you know, calling women cows, you know, like that's, I'm like, wow, 2020. I would say that I,
00:16:04.940then I'm not sure that I think that style of preaching is super effective in
00:16:09.720any direction. So yes, it could be courageous, but it might,
00:22:35.700I think it's Christian and Hopeful who end up in Doubter's Castle.
00:22:40.340Like they end up locked up and it's like they're stuck in there because they went off of the way and things are – so they're in a big tangle, right?
00:22:51.500uh i think it's the giant despair's castle and they're in there and i think it might be some
00:22:57.960other character mr greatheart or someone who who comes there but that character who comes is the
00:23:04.220one who he doesn't come in there to curl up with them and be sad with them he comes in there to
00:23:10.600rebuke them and tell them that the key is in their pocket like you have the key to get out of here
00:23:15.300What are you doing? And I think that that that's the problem is that we've we've taken it as a great thing that empathy is for someone who is not currently locked in Doubter's Castle to go in there and sit and weep with them.
00:23:29.900But if you actually know the answer, if you know Christ, if you know the answer, then you're being awful to go just sit in there and weep with them.
00:23:39.680right like that's that's really unkind right um and and so yeah i think christians just need to
00:23:46.140have a thicker skin about being accused of being unkind when what you're offering is kindness you
00:23:52.520know if you think but christ this is kindness this is mercy and but we're so vulnerable to
00:23:58.500being told that we're being unkind or that we're not like that's a thing that stresses christians
00:24:03.620out yeah so consequently it's used all the time on us right like you're told that all the time so
00:24:10.820yeah well you're gonna have to get a thicker skin about that yeah i completely agree yeah i i think
00:24:17.420um we often we want just a fellow cellmate as we're rotting in in jail rather than actually
00:24:24.960someone being an extension of christ himself uh fulfilling the role of a deliverer like we're
00:24:30.680We're called to be an extension of Christ where we are delivering people from bondage and from sin.
00:24:38.240But in our culture today, people don't want deliverance.
00:24:42.020It reminds me of Jesus when he says, do you want to be well?
00:24:46.340In John chapter 5, the man who's lame at the pool of Bethesda.
00:24:50.480And it seems like such a pointless question, but it's Jesus, so there's probably a point.
00:25:16.400It makes me think of, you know, another, you know, very, very, very often used scripture today, Romans 12, you know, mourn with those who mourn.
00:25:24.740But I can't help but think that the first half of the verse is rejoice with those who rejoice.
00:25:29.120And if we look at, you know, if we just cross-reference over to 1 Corinthians 13 with rejoicing, we see that love, that is biblical love, the love that imitates God who is love, rejoices, but it rejoices only in the truth.
00:25:44.360And so if we took that rejoice with those who rejoice and mourn with those who mourn, and we say, but true Christian rejoicing only rejoices in the truth.
00:25:51.680And then we just apply that to the second half of the verse, meaning that we should only mourn in the truth.
00:25:57.080Then one of the first questions we have to ask, I feel like, and you correct me if I'm wrong, but one of the first questions we should ask our fellow brother or sister in Christ, if they're mourning, is are you mourning in the truth?
00:26:07.620Because I can only mourn with you if you're mourning righteously.
00:26:11.880If we overturn Roe versus Wade, there would be millions of people mourning in our nation the loss of their legal right to murder their children.
00:26:19.920But as Christians, obviously, we don't mourn with them.
00:26:22.780So it's got to be the implicit, you know, component of mourn with those who mourn is mourn with those who mourn righteously.
00:26:31.560And if we're mourning with someone who is mourning sinfully, then we're really just validating and affirming their sin.
00:26:42.260Although I still like, so say someone goes through a real great major loss or tragedy, Christians are called to mourn with that person.
00:26:50.460And we're also called to keep them on the path of godly mourning.
00:26:54.020So it doesn't mean like if a woman loses her husband and she starts to say something or starts to be angry with God that you're like, well, I'm out of here.
00:27:02.840You know, you need to have companionship of people.
00:27:32.100They're like, so that's what I'm doing.
00:27:34.380I'm going to weep with those who weep.
00:27:36.100And one of the things I think is so interesting about that is, have you ever met a Christian who really knows the Lord, really loves the Lord, who could point to Christ and talk of Christ in the face of a tragedy and not be weeping with those who weep?
00:27:53.440Like, like, I think, you know, you, someone loses a child and you go to talk to them about our savior and our hope in Christ. It's not like that's a feelingless event. Like you're talking about our dearest hope and our fiercest love. It's not like you're talking about the thing that doesn't matter at all.
00:28:14.120And of course, I can imagine a time that a Christian who's too afraid of what's happening would just want to paper some Bible verses onto it and leave so they could get out of there.
00:28:26.100But that's just someone who's not going to be helped no matter what.
00:28:54.040And what you're describing, even some of the hypothetical situations you threw out were, again, were things that I would categorize as mourning or weeping righteously, like the loss of a child.
00:29:09.840Whereas, sadly, there are moments where what's being mourned is something that the loss of something that in Christ we were never actually even meant to have something that we're something that we're supposed to lose, like self, you know, and like I've, you know, like so the woman, you know, who's weeping the loss of her own identity because now she's a mother.
00:29:32.780And, you know, so but yeah, that's great.
00:29:35.920Yes, I don't. I, even there though, I think a Christian coming alongside to point them to Christ, it's still going to be talking about their most closely held dearest beliefs. It's compassionate to do that. It's not, it's not like that's missing compassion that you're engaged in the deeper discussion with someone, even if they're having a petty problem.
00:29:57.660Yeah, that's good. Yeah, because God cares about our little problems.
00:30:04.180Yeah, amen. Well, because really in the big scheme of things with the God of the universe, they're all petty problems. That's right.
00:30:11.100Okay, so here's another question. Should women teach other women?
00:30:14.640So whatever form of women discipling women, because I know you believe it.
00:30:19.200So whether there's a formal women's ministry or not, that's a different subject.
00:30:25.120But certainly we both believe that women should be discipling other women.
00:30:30.900And so in that discipleship, whatever the context may be, in that discipleship, should there be a lot of emphasis on women teaching other women doctrines, like theology proper, teaching them about the Trinity or the two natures of Christ?
00:30:51.300or should should there be kind of a intentional focus in the teaching with women teaching other
00:30:59.440women should it be should it be more regulated to teaching things that specifically relate to
00:31:05.180women and my question is coming from just to give you a heads up my question is coming from Titus 2
00:31:10.360but this could be you know I this could be too too narrow of a reading of the text and so I'm
00:31:15.880open to your pushback. But Titus 2, starting in verse 3, says, older women likewise are to be
00:31:22.180reverent in behavior, not slanderers or slaves to much wine. They are to teach. So there is a
00:31:28.360teaching capacity. They are to teach what is good. And so, verse 4 now, and so train the young women
00:31:34.360to love their husbands and children, to be self-controlled, pure, working at home, kind and
00:31:40.160submissive to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be reviled. Would you see that
00:31:45.940verse 3 and 4 of Titus 2 as this is what women should teach other women and hold that real tight,
00:31:53.060like almost exclusively teaching these things? Or would you have a category for a bunch of women
00:31:59.920in the church getting together and a woman teaching them, we're going to teach doctrine of
00:32:04.520gone. What do you think? I think that this is actually like, I just want to be clear that I
00:32:11.840don't think scripture is overdoing itself on clarity on this, which means that I would
00:32:17.680probably really have a problem. Like, I think it could be way more harmful to have a situation
00:32:23.760where the pastor is saying the women are not allowed to talk theology together. I think that
00:32:28.960that's just creepy in a way right like to be like we're banning you from these discussions or
00:32:35.020whatever that would be weird what i can say practically speaking so i mentioned already
00:32:40.200that that i'm heavily involved in the bible reading challenge this is this is a thing that
00:32:45.260the women in our women's ministry this is a thing that the women in our church do which is hosting
00:32:51.080this bible reading challenge where we're encouraging one another to be in the word
00:32:54.920We're pushing, we're trying to get women who've never read their Bibles to be reading their
00:32:59.820We're really working to get women in the Word.
00:33:03.100We do specifically not teach doctrine, and that's intentional, and the intention there
00:33:12.000is that we intend to teach a love of the Word.
00:33:15.320We want to teach the habits of being in the Word.
00:33:18.280We do not want to get into trying to teach everyone doctrine.
00:33:21.880does that mean that we don't talk about doctrine no it doesn't it's like table fellowship we do
00:33:27.340talk about right we do talk about what does this mean what's this about ask your pastor talk to
00:33:32.300you know like look it's like so so i have no problem at all with women being very i want
00:33:39.800women to be very word centric and doctrine literate so yes i am very very in favor like
00:33:46.600all of our daughters are receiving the same education as our sons we want them learning
00:33:52.160doctrine and we want them learning theology and we want them to be well educated and thoughtful
00:33:57.200so it's not like i i don't ever want to be perceived as saying women don't need you know
00:34:03.760like because you'll see people now saying things like women need theology too and it's like well
00:34:08.740of course they do because women need god and we need to understand god as he's revealed himself
00:34:14.140So, of course, but do women need to be trying to be pastors, like trying to trying to look through all the commentaries and do all this?
00:34:23.780And I would just say no, because this is going to be a weird this is going to be a weird example.
00:34:29.700Just stick with me for a second. So when my husband goes to work and he's out doing all this on behalf of our family, he brings home a paycheck.
00:34:40.200Well, I translate that paycheck into hot food on the table, right? Like I translate his work
00:34:47.680into something that, that blesses my family, that blesses the children. But when I bless the
00:34:54.180children with a hot meal, I'm blessing them with the love of their father, right? Like they're,
00:34:59.640they're the love of their father elsewhere is something that I have translated into physical
00:35:04.680comfort and love for for them so i think in many ways in a really healthy functioning church what
00:35:12.780you have happening is a godly pastor preaching the word and the men receive that and do one kind
00:35:21.060of work with that and the women do the translation work and it doesn't mean that we don't need to
00:35:26.820know what like we need to know the thing that we're translating right you know like we need to
00:35:32.600know that but we're not that's not our emphasis is not on that part so we joke that so the bible
00:35:39.080reading challenge we have i think it's close to 25 000 women in the facebook group doing the bible
00:35:45.040reading right now but it's like a hospitality ministry of the women in our church but we're
00:35:51.060spending the money in the bank of of all these women being taught from the word being right like
00:35:57.620The money that we're spending in this hospitality is the money of male leadership and teaching, and that's what we're doing.
00:36:06.640So we're not trying to start a doctrine class for women, but we absolutely are in favor of women knowing what they think about doctrine.
00:36:16.640doctrine right um and i would say that when we shifted this thinking uh to focusing on getting
00:36:24.820women in the word what the tightest two things specifically tightest two things came out so much
00:36:31.720more naturally when our focus was getting women in the word then you had women saying like well
00:36:37.960i could throw if i would love to throw a party at my house to encourage people like you have people
00:36:42.580trying to use their hospitality for a goal you had women encouraging one another about their lives
00:36:48.200with babies because the goal is that you'll be in god's word so you have you know someone says
00:36:53.400i'm struggling with reading every day because now i have two babies there'll be a huge comment
00:36:58.920thread of women being like i listen first thing in the morning when i'm nursing the baby and this
00:37:03.680is what i do and it was a ton of practical advice from people who also love god's word so i guess
00:37:11.620The only thing I would say is to be very careful to not start making weird gender divisions that God doesn't make, because I do think we need to.
00:37:21.500I do think that women need to understand theology, but I do also think that there's a real danger in women trying to become theology wonks, because that's not what we're called to.
00:37:31.940We're called to translating the things that we've been taught into culture building, kingdom building, home building work.
00:37:44.220I think for me, the question was coming from a place of just thinking that not for a second doubting the need for women to know theology, discuss theology, be applying theology, talking about theology.
00:37:57.700um i think for me it's just um i i just have i'd like to think it's a holy suspicion uh when
00:38:05.560when when women gravitate towards you know and i'm sure we're thinking of some of the same women
00:38:10.940in the evangelical public sphere but uh it's like you know this woman's like okay but what is what
00:38:16.740is this conference even over what is she talking about like she's talking about theology proper
00:38:20.500and it's like something like theology proper like because so agreeing with you because there isn't
00:38:27.800some hard line distinction between men and women on this issue because there's one god who eternally
00:38:33.760exists in three persons and we share one bible uh why do you have to be taught this subject by a
00:38:39.900woman what you know what i mean like what what's the why why why is the lord's day the the male
00:38:46.160pastor preaching the text on the lord's day talking about theology proper why do we need
00:38:51.560something specific why does it have to come from a woman you see what i'm saying uh yep and i'll
00:38:59.860two things one is i think your suspicion is accurate because a lot of the time that is not
00:39:06.180a standalone event it's it's part of a fast break for the pulpit right like it's it's part it is
00:39:14.000there's a trajectory happening so if there's like some sweet lady in your church who's like
00:39:19.100you know what i need to read i you know i i need to brush up on what i believe about the trinity
00:39:23.900so she's reading a book on the trinity there's zero threat to anything there because she's just
00:39:28.860like i've realized there's something i don't understand about my faith and i want to flesh
00:39:33.380that out right that's good and wholesome awesome right but when it's like women we have to rise up
00:39:39.260and and teach one another the attributes of god right you're like well what are you doing like
00:39:45.200what's the trajectory of this and why are you doing that i will i you would enjoy this i was
00:39:50.200at a conference sometime where in the q a and a women's thing they uh asked what book has most
00:39:59.420influenced you for the glory of god other than the bible and uh this was a very this was would
00:40:08.760have been a group where it was way cooler for it to have been a theology book right so i think one
00:40:15.120of the answers was uh you know the attributes of god aw being the attributes of god and you know
00:40:21.200it was that kind of like this is the intellectual knowledge of god and and knowing that it would
00:40:28.200provoke something and still doing it anyways because i thought it would be funny as i said
00:40:32.700it is i did say that's like saying what was your best conversation ever like there have been a
00:40:38.740lot of books that have influenced me i don't want to you know but i said i would say most recently
00:40:44.660the tartine bread cookbook and the amount of shock and awe that you would say something like that
00:40:52.500when talking about the glory of god right and this is from a very conservative group that's very all
00:40:57.780about resisting the influence of beth moore and resisting like it's all about not be not letting
00:41:05.220women into the pulpit but the fact that i would say that a cookbook had been influential in my
00:41:11.440life was like what do you think like it so clearly came off as horrifically flippant and and reckless
00:41:19.980it was funny i i watched uh well i listened to that moment and i i know which conference
00:41:25.160you're referencing um well i either listened to it i can't remember or i listened to
00:41:30.400you talk about it on some some kind of podcast format but i i heard this story and i thought it
00:41:36.940was i thought it was really funny also so that's something i i appreciate about you your willingness
00:41:42.580you take after your dad your willingness to just hey i think i'm gonna ruffle a couple feathers
00:41:47.240here so um like half the crowd was like clearly delighted yeah this is interesting and the other
00:41:54.440have was like, I mean, really scowling up. Such a funny moment. Yeah, I bet. Okay, so I got one
00:42:02.500more big question that I want to take just a moment to hear your thoughts on. I know that
00:42:09.840my wife in particular and other women in our church have asked, you know, this question to
00:42:16.540me saying like, hey, you're going to interview Rachel, ask her this question. So they wanted
00:42:21.540to hear your thoughts because i think on um what have you your podcast with your sister becca
00:42:26.460um there was an episode or two where from time to time you guys just discuss the you know the
00:42:33.140concept of women confessing their sins to one another so this is the question what are your
00:42:39.080thoughts on accountability groups for women and should women regularly confess their sins to other
00:42:45.680women if not what what's the proper context how should that be done okay i just think women need
00:42:54.680to get a lot more protestant up in there and realize that we actually have jesus like you
00:43:01.420don't need to get in a little cubby i mean we're not catholic you don't need to get somewhere and
00:43:06.560confess your sins to a priest and have him pass it on you need you confess your sins to christ
00:43:12.620Now, if there's something that you need accountability on because you actually feel like this is an area where I'm really keep on failing and I need help, that is different.
00:43:23.820I'm not trying to say you don't ever need counsel or encouragement or whatever from other people.
00:43:29.640But I would say your first response should be to look for that accountability from your husband, which women frequently do not do because frequently these things are about their husbands.
00:43:40.460It's it's frequently some it's frequently a already letting someone else into the marriage in a way that they should not be.
00:43:48.920Right. And and to confess to your husband, something is a lot more like jumping off the high dive.
00:43:54.960It's someone who will be there to see if you're like I've used this example before.
00:44:00.760But when I realized I think women can lie about all kinds of things.
00:44:04.520And when I had four really little kids, I said a lot of the time I was overwhelmed.
00:44:09.380You know, I had twin infants and two toddlers. And I would be like, I'm just really overwhelmed. You know, like I'm overwhelmed. And at some point, I think I just it just the Lord, you know, the Holy Spirit, he's kind, he shows us things. I just thought that nobody's going to challenge me on this. You know, like if I say I'm overwhelmed, who has the nerve to tell me, knock it off, suck it up, be it, you know, I mean, like nobody.
00:44:34.220uh luke was of course very encouraging but he even he wasn't going to argue with me that you're not
00:44:40.060overwhelmed right there and so i actually needed to confess to him to say you know what i'm not
00:44:46.180going to say that anymore this is what god has given me to do this is my normal workload now
00:44:51.080like this is normal and i'm not going to say that anymore well telling him that man i was actually
00:44:57.520burning my bridge all the way. Like I, I actually removed a, I like, or it's sort of like if a
00:45:05.560woman is lying about having a headache, when what the real issue is, is that she doesn't feel like
00:45:09.980doing her work. Well, nobody can hold you accountable on that because they can't actually
00:45:14.400know. Right. But, but if you go tell your husband, forgive me for lying about having a headache,
00:45:19.920because I just didn't want to deal with bedtime. Well, you've really burned a bridge there. Like
00:45:25.400you're at that's actual account yeah you're right and my dad says all the time about this like
00:45:31.920accountability groups for teen boys where they can all get together and tell each other that
00:45:36.160they struggled with porn again he's like there's no accountability there try telling your mother
00:45:40.280you know like go tell someone outside of this temptation set right what you're struggling with
00:45:45.960and you will get a whole other level of accountability yeah you start you know and
00:45:51.520I think that that's the thing is that we like the idea of accountability, but we're finding the
00:45:56.100easiest possible places to get it that won't challenge us. So I would say start with your
00:46:02.700husband. Don't think you confess your sins to your friends and do a quick little litmus test of
00:46:09.440why do I want to tell this friend? What do I actually think I'm going to get out of this?
00:46:15.320Because if you're telling a friend who is going to slap you upside the face for doing
00:46:21.360that, you know, then, then, you know, you're actually looking for accountability.
00:46:25.340You're actually looking for something.
00:46:27.900But if you're wanting to tell a friend who will be like, oh my word, I totally did the
00:46:34.460And I'll pray for you too, but with zero actual challenge in that relationship.
00:46:40.360So that would be how I would say it is a, you know, a litmus test.
00:46:44.440I think you want friends who are like, I would call them running partners in the sense that they are also pursuing Christ.
00:46:51.760They are also running after Christ and that they have as little tolerance for your sin as they do for their own.
00:46:57.880That's that's what we want in friendship.
00:47:01.040So if you reach out to someone like that with a problem, you're like, here it is.
00:47:07.660You know, and I recently just I recently just heard from a woman who was telling me she's in her group of four accountability partners, what they're talking about.
00:47:18.960I mean, I assume they talk about other things.
00:47:21.860But the but the thing that she was contacting me about what they're talking about is their own grief and the way they feel about their husband's struggles with porn.
00:49:20.840Meaning that if I'm not comfortable to confess this to anyone.
00:49:25.260So there's a lot of debate to be had for which men, which women to confess to.
00:49:30.220But if I'm not willing to confess this to anyone as far as a fellow man, am I really confessing it to Christ?
00:49:36.080And so I think sometimes the Protestant goes too far saying, well, I'm confessing to Christ.
00:49:40.500But my question would be, but if you're not confessing to anyone horizontally, you might internally not truly be even confessing it to Christ.
00:49:50.460Yeah, it does make sense. But I would, I guess I would bring up something that I think is interesting here. If you're confessing it to Christ, if you know it's a sin, you've confessed it to Christ, then confessing it to other people is actually a testimony to Christ.
00:50:06.820yes right like you're you're like i have got this has been put right with christ and yeah you're not
00:50:13.440trying to keep a super secret like you're not a sinner or you don't have problems right uh but
00:50:18.620but that's i think that what we're supposed to do with one another is that free and easy
00:50:25.320acknowledgement of our own sinner's relationship to a savior right like it is the fact that yes
00:50:31.520I am failing here, and I am confessing it, and I'm getting it right, and Christ is faithful, and this is whatever.
00:50:39.080But I think that many people are trying to use, like, they're trying to use their friends as a way of dealing with the sin without ever, like, there's some kind of catharsis that you said it out loud that you did this, and you're using that as a stand-in for actual confession.
00:50:55.860It's like, on one hand, there's like two things that, you know, you hold in tension.
00:50:59.260On one hand, there's a tendency, a leaning towards, I'd rather confess to Christ than tell any person because he's far more merciful than people tend to be.
00:51:14.700On the other hand, there's like, I'd rather confess this to my friends than Christ because Christ is, so he's on one, there's the appeal because he's merciful.
00:51:25.780There's the fear because he's also far more holy.
00:51:29.260and you know and so there's this sense of like i don't mind confessing this to this group of
00:51:33.600friends because they're not holy at all you know what i mean because they won't care jesus is one
00:51:39.660who already knows about it he's the one who already knows and so the reality is telling him
00:51:45.620is is a commitment to not it's a commitment to breaking ties with the sin right like and
00:51:52.440and otherwise it's like and that's the thing when i was talking about burning bridges that's the
00:51:58.540heart of it right like true confession to christ is turning your back on your sin you're saying
00:52:03.720i'm i i'm changing direction here and that's what i think is just really the key about whether or
00:52:11.540not you should talk to other friends about it is are you actually turning your back on the sin
00:52:15.920no you're absolutely right when we confess to the omniscient god we're not informing him what
00:52:20.880we're really doing is who are we surprising right exactly so we're not we're not informing him like
00:52:25.100we do with our fellow man but what we're really doing is it's simply it's agreeing with him i
00:52:29.920agree with you father and what you say about this that you call it sin you call it vile and i'm
00:52:35.480agreeing with you and i am committing to um to actually changing to repenting um okay so thank
00:52:42.820you so much rachel i want to give you a moment just to um to tell people how they can follow
00:52:46.900you how they can keep up with what you're doing tell us about the bible reading challenges i told
00:52:51.200you before we started recording, this episode probably won't air until October. But if you
00:52:56.160could tell people a little bit about how to follow you, how to keep up with you, if you want to plug
00:53:00.280a book, tell them about the Bible reading challenge, go ahead and do that right now.
00:53:03.880Sure. You can find me on Instagram as Rachel Jacobic. I'm on Facebook also, but the Bible
00:53:10.860reading challenge, it's where it's at, where you do, it's year round. In the summer, we do the
00:53:15.940New Testament and in the academic year, we do the whole Bible. So if you stick with us any day that
00:53:22.480you jump in, then that day a year later, you will have read the New Testament twice, Old Testament
00:53:27.220once, and a bunch of epistles and things five or six times. So jump in by all means, and you can
00:53:35.700find all the details at totheword.com. Great. Well, thanks again so much, Rachel. And for our
00:53:41.420Listeners, if you have not yet become a responder, one of our club members, take this opportunity to go ahead and do that because we're going to ask Rachel a couple bonus questions and that'll be exclusive content for our responders.
00:53:57.820And so if you want to check out the bonus questions and just to whet your appetite, listeners, I'm going to go ahead and say those now.
00:54:04.740So the first question is, what are some of the distinctions, Rachel, between how you would raise your sons versus how you would raise your daughters?
00:54:12.660And the second one is, why should Christian women care about beauty and aesthetics, specifically in the realm of their home?
00:54:20.180And how would you respond to a Christian woman who would say that this is shallow?