The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - In Vitro Fertilization & Children Who Die In Infancy - w C.R. Cali

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00:00:18.260 All right, welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied. I'm your host,

00:00:21.420 Pastor Joel Webin with Right Response Ministries. In this episode, I was very

00:00:25.000 privileged to have as a special guest, Callie. We talk about in vitro

00:00:29.360 fertilization, the sinister underpinnings of this practice that freezes children,

00:00:35.380 experiments on children, and ultimately throws them away. We talk about how Christians cannot 1.00

00:00:41.240 participate in in vitro fertilization unless it's done carefully. And even then, in an ethical 1.00

00:00:48.220 process, there are some serious questions. But we spend the second half of this episode actually

00:00:53.780 talking about one of the timeless questions in the Christian faith, where do children who die

00:01:00.180 in infancy wind up? Do children who die in infancy go to heaven or do they go to hell?

00:01:06.600 These are the questions and the subject matter that we address in this episode of Theology

00:01:11.700 Applied. Tune in now. All right, all right, all right. Stop twisting my arm. I know you want to

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00:04:12.620 God bless.

00:04:13.800 Applying God's word to every aspect of life.

00:04:17.060 This is Theology Applied.

00:04:22.660 All right, welcome to Theology Applied. I am your host, Pastor Joel Webber with Right Response Ministries, and in this episode, I'm very privileged to have as a special guest, Callie. Callie, can you go ahead and introduce yourself to our listeners?

00:04:34.760 Right. My name is Callie. I'm a sinner saved by grace. Married, have 11 grandkids. I pastor a small particular Baptist church in Victoria, Texas. Wrote a book on abolition and filmed a documentary on IVF. I spend most of my time just trying to build the kingdom of God and work towards his glory.

00:05:00.980 Amen.

00:05:01.780 All right.

00:05:02.080 So for some of our listeners, the first thing they're going to think is, well, this guy

00:05:05.760 has a radical physical appearance.

00:05:07.540 He's tatted up.

00:05:08.460 He's got piercings, all those kinds of things.

00:05:09.880 So I know that you have a little bit of an introduction, a spiel that you can give.

00:05:13.780 Can you provide our listeners with why do you have the appearance that you have?

00:05:17.340 Yeah.

00:05:17.620 So I got saved late in life.

00:05:20.280 I was 40 years old when I got saved.

00:05:24.060 And God, by his grace, showed me my sin and my need for Christ.

00:05:29.980 and uh granted me repentance and uh so since then it's you know been 10 years but

00:05:37.580 you know i i have the wonderful opportunity where um god shows me his grace every day

00:05:46.460 and i don't have the ability to diminish the sin that i lived before in my life i i don't have

00:05:56.780 that type of uh convenience to um make it appear as if the the sins that i committed against our

00:06:06.020 holy god is not as bad as the next person so you know um it's just a reminder to me that god will

00:06:14.820 save all who he wishes to save and he will stop at nothing to preserve his own and to sanctify them

00:06:23.100 Amen. And we all have a checkered past. We were all wretches. Ephesians chapter two, you know,

00:06:28.700 you were dead in your trespasses and sins in which you walked and such were some of you.

00:06:32.740 The reality is just some of our sin is under the surface. You know, God forgives all our sin,

00:06:37.320 but not all of it is visible and apparent. It makes me think of, you know, the other text that

00:06:41.400 says some sins are conspicuous, you know, going ahead of people before judgment, whereas other

00:06:47.260 sins are revealed later. And so better for your sin to be right on the surface and forgiven and

00:06:52.080 dealt with and atoned for, uh, then for your sin to be harbored, not just, uh, not just

00:06:57.420 invisible and forgiven, but invisible and not repented of harboring sin, you know, uh, just

00:07:03.880 managing sin and, uh, for it to be dealt with on the day of judgment.

00:07:06.960 So anyway, so anybody who was wondering, Hey, you know, why, you know, why, why is he, you

00:07:11.060 know, look radical.

00:07:12.000 He looks like, you know, like some drug dealing tattoo artist or something.

00:07:15.420 It's like, well, yeah, maybe, but, uh, but one who has been saved by grace.

00:07:19.060 So let's go ahead and get at our topic at hand.

00:07:21.840 And we've talked about abortion on this channel several times, and we've had guys like Jeff Durbin and other abolitionists.

00:07:28.080 But we haven't done a full episode on in vitro fertilization, IVF.

00:07:33.780 And so I know that you've done some great work on that.

00:07:36.180 Jacob Miller, he's a member at my church, and he's one of the guys who recommended, man, you should do something with Cali.

00:07:41.460 Plus, we're kind of close to each other.

00:07:43.200 We're both in Texas.

00:07:44.180 And so that's why we got you on the show.

00:07:46.100 I want to talk about IVF.

00:07:48.060 Can you help our listeners understand what that really is?

00:07:52.260 Yeah.

00:07:52.980 So the interesting thing about IVF is the amount of backing that it gets from Christians in general. 0.94

00:08:01.860 The two largest demographics of people that support IVF are homosexuals because they cannot procreate and Christians. 0.90

00:08:13.360 and a lot of times they go about it because they want something good right that we recognize that 0.93

00:08:22.800 children are blessed from god that he has commanded us to be fruitful and multiply

00:08:28.480 the earth was created to be filled with his image um and and that is a good thing and christian

00:08:40.560 couples ought to seek to fulfill that command, right? And there's a difference between intentionally

00:08:48.860 not having children and God in His sovereign providence closing the womb of women.

00:08:59.100 We need to recognize that infertility is a result of sin in general, not a particular person's sin

00:09:08.620 necessarily but but it's an effect of of the fall right and so we need to have compassion

00:09:19.340 for couples that are suffering with infertility we need to um walk alongside them and love them

00:09:29.520 and care for them and and while we're we're doing that we we need to look at children and

00:09:38.200 and start asking ourselves questions about this process um do the ends of having children after

00:09:47.280 your own likeness your own biological dna do they does that justify the use of any means whatsoever

00:09:55.100 to achieve that end so is there a point at which having children becomes an i becomes an idol to

00:10:05.320 where we are willingly engaged in sinful acts in order to get this good blessing.

00:10:13.520 And I think part of the problem is we don't really understand the process of in vitro fertilization,

00:10:20.680 what it is, what it entails, and what God has commanded about the one flesh union between a husband and a wife, right?

00:10:30.680 So what I like to do when talking about IVF is start out, what is the process itself?

00:10:40.400 And looking through the lens of the incarnation, start asking, is this a proper means by which getting children is either sinful or not sinful?

00:10:55.460 Yeah, that's good.

00:10:57.880 Yeah, I was adopted as a baby.

00:11:00.680 And my parents were unable to conceive and so they adopted me and there are thousands of stories like that where God and his sovereign will chooses not to open the womb of a particular woman and they adopt a child and then the womb sometimes, but more often than you would think, gets opened.

00:11:17.880 And so, you know, I have three younger siblings that are, you know, biological to my parents, you know, and but I know that the Lord, you know, in his will, he did that so that I would be adopted.

00:11:27.540 But you're right. There does seem to at times to be this idolatry.

00:11:31.140 And we want to be careful with that. Right. Because if I had a penny for every single Gospel Coalition article about the idolatry of family, the idolatry of children, like basically like any like basically every conservative Christian biblical thing that God says is a blessing.

00:11:46.360 You can count on Timothy Keller to write an article about how it's, you know, an idol.

00:11:50.320 And then every bad thing that the Bible actually calls as sin, you can count on the gospel religion to say, but really.

00:11:57.160 But that's not what I'm talking about.

00:11:58.600 I know you're not.

00:11:59.260 What I mean is not resting in the providence of God and his sovereignty and committing sinful acts in order to achieve that good thing.

00:12:15.720 Amen.

00:12:15.820 You know, so, for example, right, we need to look at humans as image bearers, right?

00:12:24.140 Ontologically, they are the image of God.

00:12:28.020 There is no adding to or subtracting from the value of that image that each and every single one of us are, right?

00:12:39.160 We're not only created in His image, we reflect the image of God in a way that no other creature does.

00:12:45.240 Right.

00:12:45.820 Okay, so that's a good thing. Now, does that mean that there are not sinful means by which humans are created? No, there are definitely sinful means. You go out and have a one night stand and a child is conceived, that child has no less worth than a child that's conceived in a loving, monogamous Christian relationship between a husband and a wife, right?

00:13:09.620 a child conceived in rape has no less value because of the sinful way that that child came

00:13:17.240 into being conceived and and so what i like to look at is what is the process of ivf and are there

00:13:28.060 parts to that that go against the natural order because we also don't want to say that technology

00:13:36.240 is bad right because it's not technology is neutral in that sense it can be used for good

00:13:43.160 or it can be used for bad but it of itself does not necessarily mean that you're you're involved 1.00

00:13:50.660 with something evil right where i'm pro medicine um i think that um having ob-gyns is a good thing

00:14:00.260 I think that doctors dealing with infertility is a good thing.

00:14:05.860 I think that when a woman is pregnant, having a doctor help her go through the pregnancy and deliver the baby is a good thing.

00:14:14.440 But there's something about the actual conceiving of a new human that I think we really need to take a closer look at what is happening and what are the side effects sometimes as it happens.

00:14:29.940 And is there an ethical way to do IVF or is all of it bad?

00:14:37.280 Those are the things that Christians haven't been wrestling with publicly a lot.

00:14:42.600 No, you're right.

00:14:43.140 Yeah, I knew a family that would profess to be Christians and whether or not they're regenerate, I don't know.

00:14:47.940 God sees the heart.

00:14:48.860 There were some things that were concerning beyond the example that I'm about to cite that I would be hesitant. 0.69

00:14:54.920 But even if they were regenerate and not just professing, but actually Christians, in their

00:15:00.900 idolatry, in their case, it really was idolatry, they had received counsel from other people 0.73

00:15:05.040 who were more mature in the Lord saying, I don't think you should do this.

00:15:08.820 But, you know, they had a lot of support from their family.

00:15:11.040 Oh, my goodness.

00:15:11.640 Yeah, it's wonderful.

00:15:12.620 And so they ended up with triplets.

00:15:15.640 Praise God.

00:15:16.480 Three, you know, healthy children made in the image of God and 13 more children that

00:15:21.060 are frozen.

00:15:23.180 Right.

00:15:23.880 Right.

00:15:24.160 and each and every one of them are image bearers and deserve value dignity and worth that's right

00:15:31.040 so you know i i think it should be easy for christian to to say that um

00:15:39.120 it is unethical it is sinful to create humans to be killed yes right it's also should be easy to say

00:15:50.860 that it's sinful to unjustly incarcerate humans without due process.

00:15:58.740 And I think those should be two easy things that we should be able to say.

00:16:02.140 That's such a good way to say that, Kelly.

00:16:04.840 Say that again, like in terms of, I know what you're referring to,

00:16:07.300 but just to make sure nobody missed that in terms of the ones that aren't killed

00:16:11.140 but are frozen is an incarceration without trial.

00:16:15.700 And not even just for life, but, well, I guess it would be for life

00:16:19.460 because eventually they'll die. 0.80

00:16:20.860 Go ahead. Right. So like right now, there's upwards in the United States, two million human beings that are stored in liquid nitrogen indefinitely, as long as the parents, you know, pay for storage of their incarceration until they are wanted or needed or will be used. 0.88

00:16:45.940 that's that should be a an issue for christians that seek justice and and i'm not talking about

00:16:54.700 you know desperate inequalities or or anything like that i'm talking about actual justice

00:17:01.480 right like we are incarcerating we're holding these humans captive

00:17:08.860 until we're ready to have them right ready to ready to bring them to an understanding of christ

00:17:21.940 right then because that is the telos of of all humans right and and when we're leaving these

00:17:29.500 children in liquid nitrogen we're depriving them of the telos of man which is to know god and and

00:17:40.380 glorify him we're not giving them that that opportunity we're neglectful in our duty as

00:17:47.780 parents to raise up our children in the admonition of the lord right we're we're not bringing them

00:17:55.140 to jesus is is one of the issues right every like the bible draws a clear line the dots are right

00:18:02.920 next to each other it's not hard to connect them there's a clear line from every child that the

00:18:06.860 lord gives to us that we bear that we beget through procreation we have a responsibility to provide

00:18:13.340 for and to protect fathers particularly mothers also but fathers particularly to provide and

00:18:19.020 protect and that would be physical provision for their welfare all those different things that

00:18:22.620 Sadly, the state often swoops in, but that falls on fathers, familial fathers, and then also that would include the child's education to train them up and the fear and admonition of the Lord so that the father is ultimately responsible.

00:18:35.860 He may outsource that to a biblically permissible party, such as the mother with homeschool as the father is working out of the home, or perhaps like a Christian classical education.

00:18:46.240 He can't outsource that to the pagan secular state, but he can, you know, so anyways, but he bears ultimate responsibility. 0.67

00:18:52.900 He's the captain on the ship. 0.84

00:18:54.140 If something goes wrong, it's his fault.

00:18:56.180 So he's got to provide that's that's food, that's clothing, that's health care, all those kinds of things.

00:19:00.920 He's got to he's got to provide.

00:19:02.280 And that also includes a Christian, distinctly Christian education.

00:19:05.320 And he has to provide for every single child that the Lord gives to him.

00:19:09.300 And if he's not willing or able to provide for those children.

00:19:12.780 And, well, the Bible has a verse for that guy that he's, you know, if a man is not willing to provide. 1.00

00:19:18.260 He's worse than an unbeliever. 1.00

00:19:19.340 That's right. 1.00

00:19:19.780 He's denied the faith. 1.00

00:19:20.900 So, yeah, that's really good, man. 1.00

00:19:23.200 Go ahead.

00:19:23.920 So, and that's with the frozen children, right?

00:19:27.700 But there's also the act of killing these children, right?

00:19:33.420 So of the IVF-created children, 5% go to scientific research and study, right?

00:19:45.720 And so what happens there is they take these humans and run experiments on them for the greater good of society to help develop vaccines,

00:19:57.140 to help develop you know all kinds of different medical things to just see what kind of genetic

00:20:04.820 mutations we can create there's all kinds of testing that goes on with embryos that are created

00:20:12.580 in ivf and like i said that's about five percent and the end result of each and every one of those

00:20:20.660 is the the death of that human right so they are tortured and killed but the scientists will say

00:20:29.440 you know we're doing these scientific you know genetic research for the the betterment of society

00:20:36.540 for the for the greater good of humanity um and that should repulse christians that that should

00:20:43.240 remind us of various uh eugenics programs that have gone out to wipe out various demographic 0.56

00:20:51.340 populations in order to have a pure breed or um you know deal away with down syndrome by killing

00:21:02.720 all of the children that have down so you know that type of thing we should be against that

00:21:07.740 And when it comes to how successful we are at creating these humans, the success rate is not very good at all.

00:21:21.520 We're talking about maybe 10% of all of the children that are creating in the lab end up becoming born.

00:21:32.420 The attrition rate is insane.

00:21:36.360 And when they use her nutrition, that's just like death, right? 0.99

00:21:40.380 So we do these, we inject the women with chemicals, right? 1.00

00:21:48.380 And because women produce about 20 cycles, right, that's normal. 1.00

00:21:56.060 From the time they're born, they have these eggs already, 0.77

00:21:59.460 and then the baby releases those eggs on a specific time to go along with her cycle.

00:22:05.500 And generally what happens is of this 20 or so eggs, one will advance ahead of all of the other ones.

00:22:15.280 And if a couple has sex, then the chances of that one egg becoming fertilized can happen.

00:22:24.380 And the rest of the eggs never get fertilized and they just kind of slough off.

00:22:28.780 But what happens with stimulated IVF or mini-stimulation IVF is they go in and they retrieve all 20 of those eggs or sometimes less, 5, 10 of those eggs.

00:22:43.040 And they pull all of those eggs that came from that cycle and then they fertilize each egg individually in a Petri dish.

00:22:52.500 and uh they watch them over a period of days and and throughout that time most of them die

00:23:01.500 and the ones that live will either be uh transferred back into the woman after taking a

00:23:08.560 bunch of um hormones that tricks the body into believing that it's pregnant and they

00:23:15.440 thaw out the children to match that time and then transfer the egg into the woman and hope that it

00:23:23.960 transfers and transplants itself into the uterus the the attrition rate or the death rate is about

00:23:30.800 90 so i i think that's the other aspect that christians need to look at it are are we willing

00:23:36.840 to say that killing nine children in the hopes that i can have one child after my own likeness

00:23:45.680 in my own biology is that something that is ethical and we don't have a tendency of looking

00:23:53.340 in those terms right right and we're not talking you know just to make the hypothetical you know

00:23:58.060 to set the stage you know as accurately as possible we're not talking about 10 children

00:24:02.280 that would exist either way and and we're trying you know it's like we'd like to save all 10 of

00:24:06.480 them, but we can only save one. Like if there are 10 children, um, that God has created, um,

00:24:12.820 regardless then, yeah, then you save as many as you can. If you can only save one, then you save

00:24:17.020 one. But we're talking about creating nine children for the purpose of death. Um, so that

00:24:22.640 we don't have one. Um, so we're talking about, you know, we're not talking about children that

00:24:26.660 are already out there. Uh, we're talking about, we're talking about creating children with,

00:24:31.720 with the knowledge. And it's not like, well, we thought all 10 would work. No, like with the

00:24:35.500 knowledge that, um, that, that 90% attrition rate, like that you're going to do this and, uh, you're

00:24:41.380 going to be creating, you know, nine kids, uh, that will die and maybe one of them will, will

00:24:46.580 torture and then it will die, you know, or maybe three of them will live, but we're going to

00:24:50.920 incarcerate them. They're going to be frozen. Will you give your consent for that so that you can

00:24:54.340 have one baby that you get to hold? Um, right. And, and Christians, uh, will sign and say, yeah,

00:24:59.920 yeah we're our bible allows for that right because children are a blessing from god and

00:25:06.380 and this is a good thing that we're seeking right so um there is something that they call ethical

00:25:13.580 ivf um where children are not intentionally killed or are made um and then frozen i i think we need

00:25:25.400 to say if children are killed or children are frozen that should be the easy part to go we're

00:25:31.180 we can't be part of that right that's 99.9 percent of all ivf um what they call ethical ivf

00:25:40.860 where they um pull the eggs from the woman and they freeze the eggs so those aren't humans right

00:25:48.440 those are eggs they're not they're not in right they're not individual instantiations of humanity

00:25:54.520 They are not human beings, they're eggs.

00:25:57.040 And then they thaw out two of those eggs over time and they fertilize those two eggs and then do the transfer there.

00:26:08.260 I've talked to several couples that are going through that.

00:26:13.120 And the reason they chose that route, even though it's way more expensive and the vast majority of IVF doctors won't even do it,

00:26:19.800 is because they do recognize that killing and freezing children is wrong,

00:26:26.160 but they still want to have children.

00:26:28.340 This situation is a little harder to deal with, and it's so small.

00:26:36.120 It really is less than 0.1% of all IBF.

00:26:41.640 but the issue for for me when i talk to them is comes down to the actual creation of the human

00:26:52.360 and i think there is something very important about the one flesh union that god has commanded

00:26:59.400 in procreation i think there's something very important about a husband and a wife coming

00:27:08.400 together in that one plus union that is missing in the the lab created human where third and

00:27:20.680 fourth parties are involved in the creation of that human right where we're

00:27:27.980 i wouldn't go so far as to to say it's like lusting that that's not what i'm trying to say

00:27:35.400 Um, but you are bringing someone in to the act of creating a new human that should not be there.

00:27:44.340 Right.

00:27:44.680 That would, right.

00:27:47.440 Yeah, no, I think that that's a good point.

00:27:49.160 I think that, um, you know, one of the things that I've noticed as a pastor is that when it comes to, you know, conversations with congregants about, you know, family and children and sex, you know, marriage counseling and all those kinds of things that we participate in as local pastors.

00:28:05.400 I've noticed, and I used to do this as well, but I think the Lord, by his grace, has changed

00:28:10.460 my heart and sanctified me in this area.

00:28:12.220 But when we think about sex, we know that sex, God has instituted sex for multiple purposes.

00:28:20.840 Procreation, I would say, I would argue is one of the chief purposes, but we know that's

00:28:24.380 not the only purpose.

00:28:25.640 But the problem is that what we sometimes do as man is it will take something that's

00:28:30.740 good and right that God created to be a blessing and to be enjoyed to his glory.

00:28:35.400 And we'll recognize that it has multiple purposes.

00:28:39.000 But then what we do is we try to dissect and sever each of those purposes.

00:28:43.840 So, you know, today we're having sex for intimacy and unification. 0.64

00:28:49.040 Today, this other day, we're going to have sex for pleasure. 0.98

00:28:53.300 You know, this other day we're going to have sex for procreation.

00:28:56.000 Whereas in biblical terms, you don't, like, the Bible would speak to multiple purposes for sex beyond merely procreation.

00:29:03.660 And although I do believe, again, that's one of the chief purposes of sex and the sexual union, the one flesh union.

00:29:10.920 But there are more purposes than merely procreation.

00:29:13.420 But what the Bible doesn't do is it doesn't divide.

00:29:15.720 It doesn't say, well, there are four purposes or six purposes.

00:29:19.080 And you can only do one or not the other.

00:29:21.320 Exactly.

00:29:21.820 And you get to choose like a buffet line.

00:29:23.540 You get to pick one or two purposes at a time each time.

00:29:27.240 That language is not in the Bible.

00:29:30.780 It's just not.

00:29:31.320 And so there is, I think, a theological argument that is worth serious consideration to be made about what are God's purposes for sex and has God given man the right to divide those purposes?

00:29:45.180 Right. Now, you know, so where does this leave us?

00:29:50.700 my position is that the creation of a new human is regulated by god right that the means by which

00:30:01.900 that happens god has prescribed for us how that is okay so you're gonna apply husband and a wife

00:30:07.680 you're gonna as a particular baptist you're going to apply the regular principle to the one flesh

00:30:12.200 yeah i get that right yeah okay go ahead um but what what do we do with with these children that

00:30:20.140 are already created that are you know in liquid nitrogen that are frozen you know because we're

00:30:27.940 going to have people in our congregation that just don't know right and they've always thought

00:30:33.660 that ivf is a good thing because we're seeking children and they come to a realization wow okay

00:30:39.400 this this is bad two million children we have like say three families in our congregation that

00:30:46.820 have a total of 15 children in liquid nitrogen they can't have that many children right so what

00:30:53.220 what do we do am i is it okay to what do we do with these children right and i would say it's

00:30:59.200 the responsibility of the parents and the church to rescue these children right these are our

00:31:06.300 children covenanted to our church let's find them good christian homes let's adopt these children

00:31:13.820 right um so some people ask then why is embryo adoption okay even though it falls under the

00:31:25.040 umbrella of ivf and like back to your regular principle argument saying so there's still going

00:31:30.040 to be a third party in this holy to what's meant to be two party one flesh union you're still

00:31:37.120 inviting the third party how come it's okay with the adoption but not the creation because

00:31:41.860 see and that's the thing it's because i think that the issue is in the creating of the new human

00:31:48.140 right so i don't find it bringing a third party in as a doctor to do um checkups on the pregnant

00:31:57.240 wife right i don't think that at all or the delivery of the child i think those are good

00:32:04.740 technologies and doctors that we ought to use right um and so if there was real quick if there

00:32:11.720 was a complication in the pregnancy it would be completely fine to bring in the third party that

00:32:15.740 medical expert to bring them in right to save the child so what you're saying is yeah we don't bring

00:32:21.060 in the third party for the one flesh union of creating life um correct but what we're talking

00:32:26.600 about in the case of adoption is bringing in the third party like you would bring in a doctor if

00:32:30.340 the child was already implanted in your womb you would you would bring that third party in

00:32:35.020 for the preservation and the saving of of life and that's what i i think that's a solid argument go

00:32:41.160 ahead the the problem is that i'm like even the success rate of embryo adoption is abysmal it

00:32:49.260 It really is.

00:32:53.380 There is a high likelihood that the children are going to die before being born.

00:32:59.060 That's just the reality of having these humans that are created and then frozen.

00:33:05.180 And I don't think that should stop us from trying to rescue these children, providing them a home, giving them a name, showing them love as humans.

00:33:15.240 and, you know, hope that you will be able to hold this baby

00:33:21.560 and bring them to the love of Christ.

00:33:26.180 Because that's really my whole focus in all of these issues

00:33:30.160 is bringing people to Jesus, right?

00:33:34.480 You know, like recognizing he is the sovereign God

00:33:38.120 that has the elect and has the reprobate. 0.77

00:33:41.840 I get that.

00:33:42.840 But that does not change what my duty is to humans, right?

00:33:48.000 The love I give to my enemy is either going to be the love of God that turns them to repentance, or it's going to be coals that they're heaping on their head.

00:33:59.400 I don't get to choose what it is, and it doesn't change the love that I give them.

00:34:02.840 But the love that we give, the word of God going forth, still has a purpose.

00:34:06.800 It never returns void, and that doesn't mean that every time the word of God goes forth that it results in salvation.

00:34:11.300 But it never returns void because God has multiple purposes.

00:34:13.980 But the love and the word and the truth and the training and the generosity, all these things still need to go out.

00:34:21.340 Because God has, whether it's for the damnation of the reprobate or the salvation of the elect, whatever it is, God has a purpose.

00:34:30.380 Yeah.

00:34:30.960 Yeah.

00:34:31.520 Okay.

00:34:32.060 So talk about this for a moment.

00:34:34.060 Cause I'm curious with, um, I was thinking about, um, well, with like, um, the, all these

00:34:42.400 children that died.

00:34:43.160 Right.

00:34:43.400 So, I mean, you know, with IVF that, you know, the 2 million that are currently incarcerated

00:34:47.580 without a trial, that's a, that, that is the biblical language.

00:34:50.480 That's so helpful.

00:34:52.040 Um, I knew that, you know, freezing kids is a, that's not where you want to be when Jesus

00:34:56.080 comes back, you know, freezing kids.

00:34:57.960 So I knew it was bad.

00:34:59.400 I knew it was wrong, but that, that just helps with specific language of this is in biblical

00:35:03.600 terms, how it's wrong. It's a, it's an unjust incarceration. Um, but beyond that, you know,

00:35:09.240 63 million aborted, and that's not even, you know, counting, you know, all the children that have,

00:35:13.840 you know, died because of abortion pills and things like that, you know, and potions and all

00:35:18.280 these, you know, so, I mean, we're probably, you know, well over a hundred million, you know,

00:35:21.840 in the last 49 years and, um, just in, in our nation alone. And so all of that, and then you

00:35:26.800 add IVF to the table and all the ones that have died because the 5% that had been experimented on

00:35:31.460 and the other, you know, the 90% attrition rate that you spoke to, the 2 million that are frozen,

00:35:36.100 most of those, sadly, will probably die. So, I mean, we're in, you know, I mean, the hundreds

00:35:41.200 of millions. It's probably like, without trying to exaggerate, you know, 150 million, maybe 200

00:35:45.700 million, you know, and all this in less than half of a century. So, with that, you know, and that's

00:35:50.940 all, you know, unethical. That's all sin. That's all murder. But apart from murder, just even

00:35:55.880 miscarriages and things like that, as a guy who's, you know, an abolitionist and a guy who's

00:36:01.160 involved with ivf and a guy who's a local pastor you know and so pastorally dealing with these

00:36:05.060 issues um you've got to have some thoughts on uh what happens to children if they die

00:36:10.240 in infancy yeah um i'm curious your position yeah um i prefer the 1689 before spurgeon got a hold of

00:36:22.360 where it says elect infants um and and that would be my my position um i i don't believe

00:36:32.460 that we can say that all infants or all pre-born children or all um mentally handicapped children

00:36:42.540 are are in heaven i don't think that we can say that um i also don't doubt how many

00:36:49.780 there are i i just i don't know i don't know who the elect are and i don't know who the

00:36:55.260 reprobate are i do know that we serve a good god and that his providence is wiser than us

00:37:03.180 and that's what i rest on he he said that he he will save all of his and i believe that

00:37:14.740 who they are and what age they are what ethnicity they are what gender they are i i don't know you

00:37:22.740 know so i i would i would stick with uh elect infants right um is where i would rest no that's

00:37:30.120 good i i will say i despise the 1689s uh and i'm a 1689 guy but their citations that you know they

00:37:37.960 quote uh john chapter three uh will the spirit blows where he wills you know it's like i know

00:37:43.520 what you're saying, but I'm like, man, that, that's, that verse, you know, just feels like

00:37:47.440 a bit of a stretch to make the argument that you're making, but I'm 100% with you. Elect

00:37:51.360 infants, I think is, um, just, it's, it's way easier to rest our hat on that than to

00:37:56.300 say all infants. Uh, because the problem, the problem with all, um, all children who 1.00

00:38:00.320 die in infancy or, or with certain mental disabilities and those kinds of things, the

00:38:04.440 problem with that is that, um, the, the type of argumentation that's often used, um, you

00:38:11.540 can argue the opposite. I think just as easily, if not tragically, even more easily, I feel like I

00:38:17.760 could actually make a stronger biblical argument to say that in the providence of God, faith cometh

00:38:22.500 by hearing, hearing by the word of Christ, right? Romans 10, 14, how will they believe unless they

00:38:26.840 hear? How will they hear unless someone preaches? And I can say that in God's providence, he will

00:38:32.360 ensure that all his elect physically are preserved to the hearing of the words to be coupled with

00:38:40.780 the spirit's work in regeneration. Like I can make that, I don't like that argument. That's

00:38:45.220 not my position, but I can, I can biblically, I can, I can easily argue that the child who dies

00:38:53.940 in infancy was not preserved because the same God who's sovereign over the ends of salvation

00:38:59.420 is also sovereign over the means of grace by which he brings it about. We can't sever ends,

00:39:05.120 God's predestinated ends from his predestinated means. And the predestinated means chiefly is

00:39:10.480 the preached word. How will they believe unless they hear? But also what that entails is not just

00:39:16.700 the preached word, but also it entails God sending missionaries, right? Until 13th century Japan,

00:39:21.980 people in Japan died and went to hell, right? That's why we send missionaries. If God is saving 1.00

00:39:28.760 people who haven't heard the gospel because a missionary hasn't arrived, then let's stop sending

00:39:34.460 missionaries. Let's do people a great service by not making them accountable. And then the other

00:39:40.020 argument would be like, um, you know, so, well, I think all, all children are, you know, who die

00:39:45.460 in infancy are saved because of this age of accountability. Um, but, but the problem with

00:39:51.180 that is, you know, like with the age of accountability and those kinds of things that

00:39:54.980 like they're, they're innocent. Um, that's just not what the Bible teaches. David says in sin,

00:39:59.220 did my mother conceive me in iniquity? So that, that would deny total depravity. Uh, that would

00:40:04.120 deny the need for regeneration. So that's not saying that God, um, actually regenerates and

00:40:09.200 saves elect infants that's saying um no elect infants need no regeneration uh because that's

00:40:16.460 like a roman catholic kind of kind of thing you know where we're you know what's interesting about

00:40:21.580 that is a lot of times that they'll quote genesis uh shall not the god do right you know and

00:40:30.300 not recognizing that he's talking about judgment right he's right right he didn't 50 40 30 he didn't

00:40:38.740 find any righteous you know and because we're all covenanted to adam you know and and in that

00:40:48.740 covenant we have his sin guilt and condemnation that's right that's that's what being born of

00:40:55.400 the flesh is and until um by god's grace he moves you from that covenant of death in adam

00:41:06.300 into covenant with christ and you have his righteousness there there is no hope for you

00:41:12.520 regardless of what your age is or or what sin you've done before um because that condemnation

00:41:19.900 either is going on you being a son of adam where you are at enmity with the seed of

00:41:26.900 the woman or you are his and he took your condemnation and you have his righteousness

00:41:34.200 I'm like, yes, that's the whole law gospel.

00:41:37.700 That's the whole covenant of works, covenant of grace.

00:41:40.800 And it's you're you have one father.

00:41:45.400 He's either you're either of the devil or of Christ.

00:41:48.860 There's no in between.

00:41:51.020 And we all every one of us start out sons of Adam.

00:41:55.520 Right. And it's not once we're born and reach, you know, year and a half age and sin for the first time, which would be younger than that.

00:42:03.740 you know, probably like nine, 10 months, you start, that's when I see my little kids, you know,

00:42:07.840 right around the nine month age is when they start rearing their back, you know, when you're

00:42:11.460 changing their diaper and it's like, you're not just crying because you're uncomfortable.

00:42:15.720 You're being defiant. This is, this is it. And so, but it's not just like they become that we

00:42:21.400 become sinners because we sin. No, we sin because we're sinners that we're actually, and we're not

00:42:28.160 just born in sin. We're conceived in sin. So I completely agree with you. One more,

00:42:33.740 follow-up question with that though um what do you think right so elect infants i'm with you

00:42:38.560 um agree with that um what do you think in terms of children of believers right so paul talks about

00:42:44.880 the children believers being holy i recognize you're a particular baptist you're not presbyterian

00:42:48.900 i understand that you would um you don't want to create the halfway house you know with a covenant

00:42:54.460 children before regeneration you're either in you know in christ or in adam um so i get all that um

00:43:00.860 But with that said, do you think that perhaps, I guess what I'm saying is pastorally wanting to comfort people in our church, Christians, who have a miscarriage or have a child die.

00:43:14.960 I remember, oh my goodness, horrible story.

00:43:17.520 I think it was, you know, maybe seven, I don't know, maybe it was 10 years ago, but I remember it was right before Christmas.

00:43:22.580 and uh there was a family in the town where i grew up and their two-year-old pulled on the plug of a

00:43:29.540 just old you know not the flat screen high you know technology nice tvs that we have today but

00:43:34.300 an old big tv that's you know that's weighs a ton and pulled on the cord it was up high up on a on

00:43:41.340 a dresser and it fell and crushed the child and killed him and this two-year-old died right before

00:43:46.260 christmas time and it was a small town so everybody knew the family and just absolutely tragic i'm

00:43:51.860 thinking pastorally like can i give any more comfort right elect is elect god right there's

00:43:57.760 nothing about the creature that binds the creator to to choose one over the other there's no there's

00:44:04.500 no such thing as elect semen right there's there's no such thing as regenerate biology

00:44:09.480 but we do have scripture that talks about god keeping steadfast covenant to generations the

00:44:17.280 children of believers or even just one believing spouse the children are holy so can we even as

00:44:24.420 particular baptist with a view of a particular baptist version of covenant succession can we

00:44:31.480 give not a guarantee but can we give added consolation and added added comfort and hope

00:44:38.080 that that by virtue to the members in our church who are faithful christians saying

00:44:42.520 And we do think that that that that God has a particular kindness towards the children of believers.

00:44:49.380 Yeah. So I would say so, because here's the thing.

00:44:54.420 Profession doesn't save you like that in the sense that we need to confess.

00:45:01.960 All that confess to God, all that profess his name will be saved.

00:45:07.060 He's not saying that just by opening your mouth and saying anything, you're going to be saved because you can only.

00:45:12.520 do that if changed your heart um it's it is god that changes hearts and minds and brings his

00:45:23.220 children to himself it is god that teaches his children and and they're going to be blessed

00:45:28.560 it is god himself like you're bringing up that that bit in romans like unless you how are you

00:45:37.360 going to believe unless you hear i think that the greek there leans towards hear god right not not

00:45:45.300 hear about god but like hear god himself um and i don't think that that necessarily means um you

00:45:53.360 auditorily hear right i believe in the means of grace where it is the spirit of god applying the

00:46:00.100 work of christ on on uh the people of god through word and sacrament um and i do believe that

00:46:09.180 children can be saved i believe that children in the womb can be saved how that works i don't know

00:46:16.980 but i do believe that john the baptist recognized jesus that's right you know and left with joy

00:46:22.660 he was he didn't just recognize jesus and shudder he was excited about jesus he loved jesus

00:46:28.460 so i don't believe doctrine saves us i don't believe that saying that we believe the right

00:46:35.360 things saves us and i think what the are what justifies us is faith that's given to us by god

00:46:44.080 that's right um and and he does that through the work of his spirit and the work of the spirit can

00:46:50.600 do that to infants can do that to children in the womb it can do it to a 90 year old guy on his his

00:46:58.120 deathbed right who's mute so who's when it can't speak right right um god can save whoever wants

00:47:08.000 to however he wants to but he has promised that there is something about fidelity within a um

00:47:18.040 a marriage covenant to family that he he holds to like um the church that i pastor right now

00:47:27.940 Three-fourths of our baptized membership, they're minors.

00:47:32.780 They're children, right?

00:47:35.080 Various ages.

00:47:38.180 I do think he saves them.

00:47:40.260 And the largest, I don't want to say the largest, I think a very important, one of the most important evangelistic mission fields that we have is our family, right?

00:47:55.020 And mothers and fathers teaching their children.

00:47:59.200 That's how we build his church.

00:48:00.660 And I think there is a special loving kindness that he does give to Christian families that are doing that to protect the children until justification has to happen in time and space.

00:48:19.900 you know we we deny like gill's version of eternal justification and stuff like that

00:48:25.540 it happens in time and space um you know obviously it has to happen before you die

00:48:31.860 and that god honors those types of um family fidelity right because it is where i lean on that

00:48:41.760 so i do think we can comfort them um and i think that that is a good time to comfort them

00:48:49.880 you know i completely agree because it is a real loss like it's this is not only a human

00:48:56.580 that has died which should be sad for us anyways but this is your child that god

00:49:02.160 gave to you to watch over i mean the child belongs to him regardless he's he's just entrusted that

00:49:10.460 child to you for this time for the express purpose of bringing him to the knowledge of jesus

00:49:18.120 That, that, that is your goal and how that goes about in life. Okay. You're, you're free to do

00:49:25.800 however you do in order to accomplish that. You know, as long as you're, you're not doing

00:49:31.300 something sinful. Right. And I think God does bless that. Yeah. Amen. When you were talking

00:49:40.000 about like, you know, if you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart, you know, like

00:49:43.380 those who profess Jesus. I think one thing that we often don't think about that I think would be

00:49:48.660 helpful for our listeners, I don't know if I've ever discussed this before on our show, but

00:49:53.160 I remember thinking about this a lot when I was preaching through 1 John. 1 John, so much of it

00:49:59.540 is about assurance of salvation. I ended up writing a book on it, am I truly saved? And just

00:50:04.260 giving multiple tests for the individual to be able to see, like, am I in the faith? Examine

00:50:10.680 yourself to see if you're in the faith. And John gives the test of obedience, the moral test. He

00:50:15.940 gives the truth test, the test of doctrine, biblical doctrine, and a right confession of

00:50:21.820 Christ that's both biblical, the actual person and work of Christ as the Bible states, but also

00:50:28.240 personal, right? The apostle Paul, Galatians chapter two, it's not just that Jesus, that he

00:50:33.680 lived and died and rose again for someone somewhere out there, but that the son of God loved me and

00:50:39.360 gave himself up for me so it's a biblical confession that's also a personal confession

00:50:43.800 and it's a you know a biblical meaning accurate confession of both the person the work of christ

00:50:48.340 so the doctrinal test the truth test and then the moral test you know obedience john says again and

00:50:53.280 again are we walking in his commandments not because our obedience saves us but it is an

00:50:57.920 evidence of faith that saves us you know the fruit of faith and then you know there's also the love

00:51:03.060 test right that having love for one another right even you know that will love for the least of

00:51:08.580 these, whatever you do for the least of these. Yeah. But Jesus is the least of these, my brothers,

00:51:12.580 you know, that you're not just that you're visiting the prisoner. There is a biblical,

00:51:16.160 you know, a category for love for neighbor. And we have a global neighborhood because we have

00:51:21.380 universal neighborhood because we have a universal creatorhood of God is the creator of all, but we

00:51:25.720 have not universal brotherhood because we don't have universal fatherhood. God is father, the

00:51:31.100 Lord Jesus Christ, and all those who have union with him by faith. And so otherwise, you know,

00:51:35.640 there's another father, the father of lies, you know, the devil. And so all those things being

00:51:40.320 said, so there's a love test, but I started really thinking, you know, in terms of that

00:51:45.980 doctrinal test, the truth test, a right, a biblical and personal confession. I really

00:51:51.380 started thinking about that profess with your mouth and believe in your heart and you will be

00:51:54.760 saved. And what I came down to that I think is accurate as I've checked it against, you know,

00:52:00.660 Puritans and the reformers and those kinds of, is that we don't often think about it like this,

00:52:04.780 but a profession is a work. And that doesn't mean that it doesn't matter. But I would say that

00:52:12.300 your profession of Christ as Savior and Lord is a work. It's simply the first, and almost in terms

00:52:21.480 of chronological time, it's the first and almost immediate work. But it is a work. It is the result,

00:52:29.740 the fruit, the evidence, one of the first results, fruits and evidence of faith. And so we are saved

00:52:35.920 by grace is the gift of God so that no one can boast. That grace is received through faith. Faith

00:52:42.180 is the instrument that lays hold of grace. But then if we're trying to place in our order salutis,

00:52:48.180 you know, like a profession, the profession would be an evidence, a fruit, a work, just like

00:52:53.500 obeying the 10 commandments, you know, it would, and it just would be the first work. So my point

00:52:58.480 is that if God saves someone by grace through faith, um, and, and they're mute, they're still

00:53:06.580 saved because, because, um, the person who doesn't profess because of unwillingness, we would say,

00:53:12.920 well, that's, you're not saved, not because professions save you. Um, grace through faith

00:53:18.620 saves you, but grace through faith bears fruit. And someone who is, who is refusing to make a

00:53:24.360 profession. We say, your lack of fruit, your refusal to bear fruit in one of these clear,

00:53:29.560 clear areas of scripture, right? If somebody refused to be baptized, I would question their

00:53:34.440 salvation. And rightfully so. If somebody refused to be faithful in marriage, all those different 1.00

00:53:38.960 things. And so it would be the refusal of a profession. It's not that the profession saves

00:53:44.160 you. It's just that you're refusing to bear fruit in this area, which means there's a lack of

00:53:49.800 evidence of the grace through faith that actually does save you. So, so I think that's important

00:53:55.440 for people to understand. You're not saved by casting a spell and, and having the right

00:54:00.560 pronunciation and articulate. If you say these words in this order and enunciate and emphasize

00:54:05.860 that, you know, this inflection, you know, like, no, no, no, you're saved by grace through faith.

00:54:10.160 That's it. And a profession, if we had to categorize it, the profession of Christ that

00:54:15.180 is both biblical and personal. It's not grace. It's not faith. It is a work. It is an evidence.

00:54:23.240 It's simply one of the first works and evidences of the person who has been born again by grace

00:54:28.400 through faith in Christ alone. And so if somebody is unwilling, that calls serious things into

00:54:33.800 question. I would be confident saying, I'm sorry, I can give you no assurance of being a brother.

00:54:38.500 you won't profess Christ. You will not confess Christ as Lord, you know, but, but the person

00:54:44.960 who's unable, that's a completely different story. Right. Would you agree with that?

00:54:49.780 You know, you, you know, like you're talking about this and, and we hear phrases that are

00:54:56.120 from the Bible of like repent and believe, right? Like you, you need to repent and believe

00:55:01.720 that's work

00:55:03.500 there's no way to get around

00:55:06.060 repenting and believing is a work

00:55:08.120 God will not repent

00:55:09.740 and he does not believe

00:55:12.280 for you

00:55:12.880 you in time and space

00:55:15.660 have to believe

00:55:16.900 it works its way

00:55:30.260 out in justification and i would argue it does the same thing in sanctification like

00:55:35.980 your sanctification is not you doing better this week than you did last week or the week before

00:55:42.020 but rather your sanctification is the spirit of god applying the work of christ in your life

00:55:47.540 transforming you into the image of the sun and that looks like something in time and space right

00:55:54.820 It looks like you repenting and believing when it,

00:55:58.820 when it comes to like assurance.

00:56:03.300 I always point back to the argument that the author of Hebrews makes on,

00:56:11.800 on how one can know that they are saved on the assurance that they have.

00:56:16.960 And it's that there is none more powerful than God.

00:56:21.820 There's no authority greater for him to swear on.

00:56:26.000 He is omnipotent.

00:56:27.640 No one is more powerful than God.

00:56:30.300 And he does not lie.

00:56:32.000 He does not change.

00:56:33.820 So if he is the all-powerful God who does not change,

00:56:38.480 then he will preserve you.

00:56:43.440 He will protect you.

00:56:44.940 He will sanctify you.

00:56:47.440 He will finish the work that he did in you.

00:56:50.860 Um, I think it would help people a lot more if they read a little bit more of like the

00:56:59.940 marrow controversy and, uh, saw how these men, um, tried to work their way through this

00:57:09.220 idea of, of works versus grace, you know, like, what does it look like?

00:57:15.980 Because we don't want to end up with, you know, ideas like Piper puts out with final justification or some of the federal vision, which has its other issues of monocovenantalism.

00:57:31.340 Right.

00:57:31.640 And it's similar.

00:57:32.960 There's final justification.

00:57:34.260 Our assurance is 100% on Christ and his work.

00:57:41.900 He is the one that plucked us from the fire.

00:57:45.060 he is the one that's transforming us he is the one that is receiving a people as an inheritance

00:57:55.760 and god will stop at nothing to burn away all of our idols leaving nothing left but the

00:58:04.620 righteousness of christ amen that's that's how i would yeah gohardus voss he you know he once said

00:58:12.160 I'm convinced that

00:58:13.320 Christ will never cease to love me because

00:58:16.160 he never began

00:58:16.900 one of the most comforting

00:58:20.100 truths that we have is like what you're saying is

00:58:22.080 that much of our assurance rests on we don't think

00:58:24.140 of this we think of the love of Christ but

00:58:25.740 you actually mentioned not only the love of Christ

00:58:28.180 but the love of Christ in relation to

00:58:30.120 the immutability of

00:58:32.080 God behold I

00:58:34.120 am the Lord I changeth not so 0.97

00:58:36.040 that you the sons of Jacob are not 0.75

00:58:37.740 consumed like one of the reasons that the

00:58:39.960 Christian can have comfort

00:58:41.640 is because we're not consumed.

00:58:46.060 We know that God never changes,

00:58:49.160 that he never ceases to love us because he never began.

00:58:52.500 He's not a man that he should change his mind.

00:58:54.920 He never started to love us.

00:58:56.740 I mean, there is a sense.

00:58:57.780 Justification, like you said, happens in real time.

00:58:59.840 So there is a sense in which we were once his enemies

00:59:01.800 and now we have been adopted as his beloved children.

00:59:04.120 But there is also a sense in which God has always loved his elect.

00:59:08.480 It's not just that Jesus came to the world to make us lovable.

00:59:11.640 But for God so loved the world, while we were yet sinners, he sent Jesus.

00:59:16.580 And so, anyway, so I was just saying.

00:59:17.960 With the love that he has for the Son.

00:59:20.780 Right.

00:59:21.080 I mean, it's the very love that he has for the Son.

00:59:23.380 Right.

00:59:23.580 You know, you bring up 1 John, and one thing that I find really fascinating about that is when he talks about fellowship one to another, right?

00:59:35.680 That's the same word for communion, participate, to share.

00:59:40.860 There is a real spiritual union that goes on between believer to the next believer.

00:59:51.500 And I would argue that it's the same spiritual participation that we have and union we have with Christ that brings believers spiritually together as one body.

01:00:05.300 And it's not about hanging out or having lunch or doing nice stuff together, but that it's an actual supernatural event.

01:00:15.440 And I think that's one thing that's really lacking in a lot of modern churches is the understanding of the supernatural.

01:00:23.000 And I'm not talking superstition.

01:00:24.920 I'm talking about real spiritual.

01:00:29.560 You're either participating with demons or at the table of the Lord.

01:00:33.020 It's one of the two.

01:00:34.060 and um post enlightenment we have this uh you know like we bow down to it we go okay yeah no

01:00:42.500 there is a spiritual realm but we we act as if it's not real or dealing with anything spiritual

01:00:49.860 is more superstitious and obviously we deny Rome and the superstition there but we need to

01:00:58.260 I think grab a hold of the very real, I mean, that's what the whole means of grace is based off of.

01:01:05.320 And I think it helps us to do that when we recognize that spiritual union is one believer to the next believer as well.

01:01:13.420 That there's a spiritual unity that binds us as a spirit.

01:01:17.660 That's right. Yeah, that we are actually discerning the body and the body being actually the people, the people of Christ.

01:01:25.940 No, you're absolutely right. And I think one of the reasons with our enlightenment version of Christianity, because we've tried to marry these things, which is impossible, but because we've gotten too big for our britches and too intellectual and all those kind of things, what you're talking about is precisely the reason why churches were so quick to close their doors with COVID and so slow to open them.

01:01:47.740 Because at the end of the day, people don't actually believe that something happens when the saints gather together on the Lord's day for the administering of the ordinary means of grace, right?

01:01:57.640 First Corinthians chapter 10, just as there is one bread, we who are many are made one, that something actually happens.

01:02:04.960 And, you know, Matthew chapter 18, like where two or three are gathered.

01:02:07.520 It's not just two or three guys in a college dorm at a Christian campus, you know, with a djembe and an ovation guitar singing Kumbaya, my Lord, right?

01:02:14.920 No, Jesus is talking about being uniquely present, particularly with authority, given the context of church discipline.

01:02:22.360 But he's talking about the Lord's Day gathering.

01:02:24.580 And when he says two or three, well, why does he say two or three?

01:02:27.300 Well, because you can have a small church.

01:02:29.000 That's why he says two or three.

01:02:30.380 But it's two or three baptized confessors who have made a right confession.

01:02:34.900 They are true confessors.

01:02:36.120 They've been baptized into the Lord Jesus.

01:02:38.860 And baptism is how the one joins the many.

01:02:41.240 And in the Lord's Supper, the renewal oath ceremony that we have, the many are made one.

01:02:47.100 And when these ordinary means of grace are rightly administered by biblically qualified officers, ordained officers of the church and the saints are gathered together on the first day of the week when Christ rose from the dead, the Christian Sabbath, he promises Christ who is omnipresent, always present with believers by virtue of the indwelling ministry of the Holy Spirit.

01:03:07.640 But he's always present, but he promises to be especially or uniquely present in that earthly context.

01:03:14.760 And there is no other earthly context, but the church gathered where Christ promises to be uniquely present.

01:03:22.400 And what we said when we closed our doors and guys didn't open them up for months is we said, you know what?

01:03:27.320 At the end of the day, we don't need Christ.

01:03:31.140 And if you press them on that, they say, of course we need Jesus.

01:03:33.840 But we've got Jesus in our living room with Zoom.

01:03:35.840 We've got Jesus.

01:03:36.460 And it's because they're too big for their britches, they're too practical, they're too scientific, too, you know, not real science, but the science, you know, too enlightened, it's the enlightenment, to just, to believe that good old time religion of the supernatural that like, no, no, something, something magical happens and not like magical and some, you know, like some mystical.

01:03:59.020 Yeah, right.

01:03:59.940 Yeah, something happens.

01:04:01.580 You know, what's interesting about that?

01:04:03.100 Yeah, and I would say that I think what happened during the COVIDs and the tyranny from the state and all of these institutions closing their doors and not worshiping, showing that they actually worship, I think that was a good thing.

01:04:22.960 I mean, Jesus said to preserve his church, that he is going to present her, the entire church, holy, blameless, and spotless, that as a priest, he is purging the sin from within.

01:04:36.580 And, you know, I think it was a great show of false churches.

01:04:44.200 Not all of them were false.

01:04:45.640 I would say a lot of them are.

01:04:48.660 And a lot of people that thought that they were Christians come to realize that they're not.

01:04:52.960 A lot of, you know, small faith Christians inside some of these churches started to recognize that their churches aren't true churches, that they've, while every church has a mixture of truth and error, they recognize that theirs has devolved into a synagogue of Satan.

01:05:14.960 I think all of that is good. 0.75

01:05:17.000 I think that in the providence of God, he's exposing, he's forcing us to see that cultural Christianity is not Christianity. 0.94

01:05:26.820 That's right. 0.89

01:05:27.700 And I think that's, I think it's a beautiful thing.

01:05:31.560 Yep, I completely agree.

01:05:32.580 Yeah, it's a mercy of the Lord.

01:05:33.920 It was hard, but the Lord, it was his merciful providence to lift the veil.

01:05:39.400 And for some people, it was already lifted, but for the normies, right, that's what the kids call it.

01:05:43.740 You know, they didn't see a lot of these things until the last two and a half years, and that was a mercy of the Lord to actually reveal to his sheep, no, this really is a problem, and this person really is a wolf, and this person really, and so I completely agree with you.

01:05:58.060 And for the record, I think there are churches that got it wrong that still are true churches, but here's the linchpin.

01:06:05.240 Did they repent?

01:06:07.400 And that's what I've been shocked about.

01:06:08.840 it's not just that church is closed, but now that like so much just absolutely undeniable

01:06:14.760 evidence has surfaced, like, you know, like love your neighbor, get the vax. And then we find out

01:06:18.360 it wasn't even tested for its ability to stop transmission. Meaning the vax was, it was not

01:06:24.680 tested for its ability. It's love, love your neighbor ability. Great. So David French, right?

01:06:31.080 And, you know, and Russell Moore, like I would love to see an apology. I would love, I would

01:06:37.980 love for there to be clear repentance. And in their cases, you know, there needs to be repentance

01:06:43.700 and also they need, you know, they need to resign because, you know, there's a certain point where

01:06:47.680 there's repentance and okay, this person is a brother in Christ, but not every brother in

01:06:51.860 Christ gets to lead, right? If you, if it takes you, right, if it took you a few weeks, that's

01:06:57.020 one thing. But if it takes you 900 days and you're just now realizing what's going on, then that's,

01:07:04.360 I mean, just by the mere fact of how slow you were to be able to discern some of it, you just don't have the giftings of a leader.

01:07:10.120 You're just not able to lead people.

01:07:11.860 Yeah.

01:07:12.260 You know, so I don't know.

01:07:13.840 So what do we do? What do we do? What do we do with the leadership of like fill in the blank denomination, whether it's the SBC or Presbyterian or Reformed Baptists that for the past 50 years have said that, you know, abortion is health care.

01:07:34.400 And instead of treating it like homicide, we should try to limit access to this bad thing.

01:07:42.880 You know, what do we do with them?

01:07:45.160 They're still not repenting of, you know, being on the side of legalizing abortion or at least being the religious backing for keeping abortion as health care.

01:08:01.960 Right. Great.

01:08:02.780 You're closing health care facilities in Texas, okay, but it's still completely legal in every single state for a woman to kill her own pre-born child. 0.99

01:08:14.960 And the church, by and large, still backs these health care laws. 0.69

01:08:20.740 So what do we do with those guys?

01:08:22.120 What do we do with the leadership that, like we were talking about before, for 40, 50 years are saying that the creation of humans, where 90% of them are going to die and a large percent are going to be frozen, incarcerated without due process, and you're behind that still?

01:08:42.420 I mean, what kind of repentance are we asking for from these religious leaders, even when they finally come out and go, OK, maybe this is a they're not even doing that for abortion.

01:08:54.100 They're saying, no, abortion is bad, but our strategy is still good.

01:08:57.280 I'm like, we need to show the bloody city and expose the sin. 0.67

01:09:06.700 Why do we think that the COVIDs and the tyranny of the state coming down on us, we're polluting the land with our abominations?

01:09:17.920 That's a biblical principle.

01:09:19.400 We came here, dispossessed the people that were here because of their abominations, because they sacrificed to their gods.

01:09:30.320 And there were memes about that during Columbus Day.

01:09:35.480 Yeah, our culture is better. 1.00

01:09:37.140 You were sacrificing all of these people on your Inca towers and stuff.

01:09:41.380 Of course, this is a better culture. 1.00

01:09:43.560 Okay, so we dispossessed them, and we polluted the blood with homosexuality. 1.00

01:09:48.420 right uh the slaughter of children on a scale that they couldn't even imagine right well what 1.00

01:09:55.640 what do we expect right of course the land ought to it ought to vomit us up so when we look at

01:10:03.020 these pastors and church leaders that close their churches and stuff i i agree with you

01:10:07.660 i i think that those guys were more than just wrong right like okay with the with the evidence

01:10:14.820 that we had we we made the wrong decision now i think it was it's more than that i think there's

01:10:21.180 a certain intentionality that does disqualify them to to lead groups of people but really what

01:10:30.400 why are we saying that for for the covid and uh for the vaccine but not for how we've handled the

01:10:38.640 the slaughter of children or or how we've had handled the the incarceration of children or

01:10:43.960 how we've handled fill in the blank thing well for the record i i would say about hundreds of

01:10:49.080 millions of children right okay i mean i would say that so just to answer your question i would say

01:10:54.880 that for anybody in the sbc who thinks that a woman is a victim rather than a murderer so my

01:11:00.100 position is that um that we should criminalize the not just illegal but that it should be

01:11:04.760 criminalized and it should be equal weights and measures um if there's a murder the death penalty

01:11:09.280 I would prefer in my perfect theonomic society that I'm working towards by God's grace. I think

01:11:14.580 it could happen one day. But I think lethal injection is not the best way to go. I think

01:11:19.480 a public hanging, these are crimes against humanity. I think the public should be able

01:11:22.880 to witness it. I think hanging is a good way to enact the death penalty. I think it's better than 0.90

01:11:30.140 a firing squad. I think it's better than lethal injection. I think there's a reason why early

01:11:35.200 christians when it came to capital punishment used hanging so anyways all those kind of things so i'm

01:11:40.100 i'm fully on board to say yeah this is in any man for that record you know for the record any man

01:11:44.320 who's complicit in the woman who's any person involved with it right absolutely so it's murder

01:11:48.860 so yeah and and it should be criminalized and anybody who is saying anybody who's like for

01:11:53.500 instance stopping the bill in louisiana e-r-l-c right um yeah you guys should uh you it's not

01:12:00.040 just you need to repent. You also need to step down. You are not qualified. So I would carry

01:12:06.040 that across the board and be consistent all the way. And I like what you said. I just, I have to

01:12:10.140 comment on that. You're absolutely right. We dispossessed demonic, demonic tribes. I mean,

01:12:17.620 I remember, you know, learning Texas history, even in public school, you know, growing up and

01:12:22.380 learning Texas history about the Caronquas because they were near, you know, they were on the Gulf

01:12:27.180 coast where, where I was going to school in Bay city, Texas, you know,

01:12:29.880 right there by Matagorda County, you know,

01:12:31.420 that's where I went to high school. That's where I went to middle school.

01:12:33.360 I remember sixth grade learning. And I was so fascinated learning about,

01:12:36.880 you know, indigenous people groups.

01:12:38.140 And we're learning about the Caronquas because they were kind of like in

01:12:40.240 Galveston area, you know, in Corpus Christi, and that's right where we were. 0.53

01:12:43.800 But they were cannibals. They were eating each other, you know? 0.57

01:12:47.000 And so like, I mean, you, you know, like slavery, right?

01:12:49.780 Like every nation in the world had slaves, every,

01:12:52.980 every nation in the world virtually had slaves,

01:12:55.280 three percent of the african slave trade was was north america the rest was south america and then

01:12:59.860 other african nations buying slaves from other african nations and then of course europe um 0.94

01:13:04.200 you know so yeah we dispossessed the people from the land um and the people who dispossessed them

01:13:09.320 we didn't i should say our our forefathers did they dispossessed right right and they were righteous 1.00

01:13:15.800 now they had their problems too i'm not saying they were perfect um i don't like the salem witch

01:13:19.760 trials i don't think that that was according to god's law with two or three witnesses um you know

01:13:23.840 So there was problems in, you know, Boston, Massachusetts, there were problems over here that, you know, but the covenanters, the founders, these guys, they were more righteous and God gave them the land.

01:13:34.900 And I believe that God providentially gave them the land for a reason.

01:13:37.700 I really do.

01:13:39.140 But I think that we right now are in a position to where, yeah, we are worthy of being dispossessed because of the, so you're absolutely.

01:13:48.440 The land ought to vomit us up.

01:13:50.560 Yeah.

01:13:50.900 For sure.

01:13:52.240 Right.

01:13:52.600 Right. So for us to be, you know, plagued by, you know, we weren't plagued by, you know, the bubonic plague or some kind of, you know, I do, I'm not a COVID denier.

01:14:00.760 I think there actually was COVID, but it certainly, I mean, it was, it was nothing like, you know, like the Spanish flu, which was no respecter of persons, right?

01:14:07.140 It wasn't just elderly and vulnerable and comorbidities.

01:14:09.860 You'd be 17 years old and healthy and drop dead.

01:14:12.160 And the state asked the church, they didn't command it.

01:14:14.120 They asked the church to close a hundred years ago with the Spanish flu and the church in America closed for three weeks, three weeks, and then got back.

01:14:21.740 So I think like for us to actually have a real plague, because COVID is not a real plague.

01:14:28.900 It is a real illness, sickness, but a virus, but a real plague would be well within God's

01:14:34.220 justice.

01:14:35.360 And for us to not, you know, to have a plague that was blown out of a virus that was blown

01:14:41.940 out of proportions by the state and have tyranny crushing the necks of churches, that

01:14:48.340 was just on god's part because of of what the church has tolerated what the church is more than

01:14:53.360 just tolerated but promulgated and so i brother i i agree with everything you said i think that

01:14:58.760 that was fantastic so i'm with you all right any let's let's go ahead and round it out i think

01:15:03.260 this has been great i think our listeners will be blessed by this conversation uh do you have

01:15:06.720 any final thoughts and then after that can you uh let our listeners know how they can follow you

01:15:10.740 and then also tell them the name of your church and where you're located in case there's anybody

01:15:13.860 in your area looking for a church right on so i'm in south texas in victoria county

01:15:21.800 the name of our church is sermon in the park we started as a homeless church in

01:15:29.900 queen city park and then over time this place let us use their building

01:15:36.500 um so i am in victoria texas um check out my documentary on infertility and ivf it's called

01:15:46.620 leaping time and you can find it on my youtube channel which is resisting balaam um or on a

01:15:55.120 podcast dealing with the culture of death and how we ought to fight it um if you're interested in

01:16:02.140 a longer doctrinal understanding of where we come up with some of the ideas

01:16:07.440 on IVF, go check out, uh, rescue those.com.

01:16:12.060 There's a like 30 page pamphlet dealing with this. Uh,

01:16:16.640 there's something called the red river statement.

01:16:23.320 And if you go to pro-life is not enough.com our most recent,

01:16:29.420 conference. There's, I don't know, like six different lectures that, that go through a lot

01:16:35.360 of the IVF stuff. So great. And just find me on the Facebook and ask me questions. You know,

01:16:42.920 I'm always down for that. Awesome. Great. Well guys, check out Callie and Callie. Thanks again

01:16:48.080 for coming on the show. God bless you. Thanks so much for listening, but real quick, before you go,

01:16:52.480 do us a small favor, take a moment and leave us a five-star review. If you enjoyed the show,

01:16:57.660 This is undoubtedly the best way that you can help us get this biblically faithful content to as many people as possible.

01:17:05.420 Thanks so much.

The NXR Podcast - December 13, 2022

THEOLOGY APPLIED - In Vitro Fertilization & Children Who Die In Infancy - w C.R. Cali

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