The NXR Podcast - December 13, 2022


THEOLOGY APPLIED - In Vitro Fertilization & Children Who Die In Infancy - w C.R. Cali

Hosted by
Joel Webbon Harrison Smith Antonio Griffith Dale Partridge Wewsley Todd Calvin Robinson
Mentioned
John Jacob Miller David French Caronquas Nathan Anderson Timothy Keller Russell Moore Jesus Christ Joel Webber Jeff Durbin Joel Webin Matthew Kelly Cali Adam Zoom
DAILY TRUTH - The Last Line Of Defense DAILY TRUTH - Motivation For Living A Disciplined Life

Episode Stats


Length

1 hour and 17 minutes

Words per minute

162.97

Word count

12,565

Sentence count

571

Harmful content

Misogyny

5

sentences flagged

Toxicity

9

sentences flagged

Hate speech

39

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode of Theology Applied, Pastor Joel Webber is joined by special guest, Callie, to discuss the sinister underpinnings of in vitro fertilization, the ethics behind it, and why Christians should not participate in it.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00 Hey guys, real quick, before we get started, I have a small request.
00:00:03 If you've been blessed by our content and you like this show,
00:00:06 would you take just a brief moment and leave us a five-star review?
00:00:09 This is quite possibly the most effective thing that you can do
00:00:12 to ensure that this content gets out to as many people as possible. Thanks.
00:00:18 All right, welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied. I'm your host,
00:00:21 Pastor Joel Webin with Right Response Ministries. In this episode, I was very
00:00:25 privileged to have as a special guest, Callie. We talk about in vitro
00:00:29 fertilization, the sinister underpinnings of this practice that freezes children,
00:00:35 experiments on children, and ultimately throws them away. We talk about how Christians cannot 1.00
00:00:41 participate in in vitro fertilization unless it's done carefully. And even then, in an ethical 1.00
00:00:48 process, there are some serious questions. But we spend the second half of this episode actually
00:00:53 talking about one of the timeless questions in the Christian faith, where do children who die
00:01:00 in infancy wind up? Do children who die in infancy go to heaven or do they go to hell?
00:01:06 These are the questions and the subject matter that we address in this episode of Theology
00:01:11 Applied. Tune in now. All right, all right, all right. Stop twisting my arm. I know you want to
00:01:17 hear the inside scoop. Here it is, the glorious vision of Right Response Ministries for the first
00:01:22 half of next year, 2023. We have not one, not two, but three massive endeavors that we will
00:01:30 accomplish by the grace of God. The first you already know about. It's our Theonomy and
00:01:35 Post-Millennialism Conference. This is selling out incredibly fast. By the time this commercial
00:01:40 airs, you may not even be able to get a ticket. I really don't know. So don't waste another moment.
00:01:45 go to rightresponseconference.com, rightresponseconference.com to join us for the
00:01:51 Theonomy and Post-Millennialism Conference next year. Now, this is where you come in. We need
00:01:57 your help. Our next two endeavors are, number one, a documentary-style film, and number two,
00:02:04 a brand new studio. Both of these things are seeking to accomplish one primary goal, which is
00:02:10 excellent, high-quality, glorious Christian media. We are tired of, as Christians, doing things
00:02:19 poorly. We've done our best with what we have, but by God's grace, we want to do even better.
00:02:25 This is not going to be just another video. This is not going to be a sermon or an interview or
00:02:31 a podcast, but we're going to make a documentary-style film, and we're going to be hiring
00:02:36 Nathan Anderson, the director of On Earth As It Is In Heaven, a very, very successful
00:02:41 post-millennialism documentary that's on Amazon and YouTube, came out a couple years ago. He's
00:02:47 going to be flying in from Chile to help us direct this film. And our documentary is going to be on
00:02:54 post-millennialism and theonomy, why it's biblically valid, why it's absolutely necessary, and why,
00:03:01 by the grace of God, theonomy and postmillennialism are currently on the rise. So we're going to make
00:03:07 this film and we need your support. And not just this film, but we're going to make all of our
00:03:13 videos and podcasting and everything we do here at Right Response Ministries better. We want to
00:03:19 achieve the highest level of quality and Christian excellence that we possibly can. That's where the
00:03:26 new studio comes in. This new film, our date that we're shooting for is that it would be complete
00:03:31 and publicly available in May or June of 2023, next year. The studio, our goal is that it would
00:03:39 be completely done in its construction and the equipment and the setup and the stage and
00:03:44 everything by January, February of 2023, next year. We need your prayers. We need your encouragement.
00:03:52 And for those of you who are willing to do so, we need your generous support.
00:03:57 You can give towards these endeavors by going to
00:04:00 rightresponseministries.com forward slash donate.
00:04:04 Again, that's rightresponseministries.com forward slash donate.
00:04:10 Thank you so much for all your help.
00:04:12 God bless.
00:04:13 Applying God's word to every aspect of life.
00:04:17 This is Theology Applied.
00:04:22 All right, welcome to Theology Applied. I am your host, Pastor Joel Webber with Right Response Ministries, and in this episode, I'm very privileged to have as a special guest, Callie. Callie, can you go ahead and introduce yourself to our listeners?
00:04:34 Right. My name is Callie. I'm a sinner saved by grace. Married, have 11 grandkids. I pastor a small particular Baptist church in Victoria, Texas. Wrote a book on abolition and filmed a documentary on IVF. I spend most of my time just trying to build the kingdom of God and work towards his glory.
00:05:00 Amen.
00:05:01 All right.
00:05:02 So for some of our listeners, the first thing they're going to think is, well, this guy
00:05:05 has a radical physical appearance.
00:05:07 He's tatted up.
00:05:08 He's got piercings, all those kinds of things.
00:05:09 So I know that you have a little bit of an introduction, a spiel that you can give.
00:05:13 Can you provide our listeners with why do you have the appearance that you have?
00:05:17 Yeah.
00:05:17 So I got saved late in life.
00:05:20 I was 40 years old when I got saved.
00:05:24 And God, by his grace, showed me my sin and my need for Christ.
00:05:29 and uh granted me repentance and uh so since then it's you know been 10 years but
00:05:37 you know i i have the wonderful opportunity where um god shows me his grace every day
00:05:46 and i don't have the ability to diminish the sin that i lived before in my life i i don't have
00:05:56 that type of uh convenience to um make it appear as if the the sins that i committed against our
00:06:06 holy god is not as bad as the next person so you know um it's just a reminder to me that god will
00:06:14 save all who he wishes to save and he will stop at nothing to preserve his own and to sanctify them
00:06:23 Amen. And we all have a checkered past. We were all wretches. Ephesians chapter two, you know,
00:06:28 you were dead in your trespasses and sins in which you walked and such were some of you.
00:06:32 The reality is just some of our sin is under the surface. You know, God forgives all our sin,
00:06:37 but not all of it is visible and apparent. It makes me think of, you know, the other text that
00:06:41 says some sins are conspicuous, you know, going ahead of people before judgment, whereas other
00:06:47 sins are revealed later. And so better for your sin to be right on the surface and forgiven and
00:06:52 dealt with and atoned for, uh, then for your sin to be harbored, not just, uh, not just
00:06:57 invisible and forgiven, but invisible and not repented of harboring sin, you know, uh, just
00:07:03 managing sin and, uh, for it to be dealt with on the day of judgment.
00:07:06 So anyway, so anybody who was wondering, Hey, you know, why, you know, why, why is he, you
00:07:11 know, look radical.
00:07:12 He looks like, you know, like some drug dealing tattoo artist or something.
00:07:15 It's like, well, yeah, maybe, but, uh, but one who has been saved by grace.
00:07:19 So let's go ahead and get at our topic at hand.
00:07:21 And we've talked about abortion on this channel several times, and we've had guys like Jeff Durbin and other abolitionists.
00:07:28 But we haven't done a full episode on in vitro fertilization, IVF.
00:07:33 And so I know that you've done some great work on that.
00:07:36 Jacob Miller, he's a member at my church, and he's one of the guys who recommended, man, you should do something with Cali.
00:07:41 Plus, we're kind of close to each other.
00:07:43 We're both in Texas.
00:07:44 And so that's why we got you on the show.
00:07:46 I want to talk about IVF.
00:07:48 Can you help our listeners understand what that really is?
00:07:52 Yeah.
00:07:52 So the interesting thing about IVF is the amount of backing that it gets from Christians in general. 0.94
00:08:01 The two largest demographics of people that support IVF are homosexuals because they cannot procreate and Christians. 0.90
00:08:13 and a lot of times they go about it because they want something good right that we recognize that 0.93
00:08:22 children are blessed from god that he has commanded us to be fruitful and multiply
00:08:28 the earth was created to be filled with his image um and and that is a good thing and christian
00:08:40 couples ought to seek to fulfill that command, right? And there's a difference between intentionally
00:08:48 not having children and God in His sovereign providence closing the womb of women.
00:08:59 We need to recognize that infertility is a result of sin in general, not a particular person's sin
00:09:08 necessarily but but it's an effect of of the fall right and so we need to have compassion
00:09:19 for couples that are suffering with infertility we need to um walk alongside them and love them
00:09:29 and care for them and and while we're we're doing that we we need to look at children and
00:09:38 and start asking ourselves questions about this process um do the ends of having children after
00:09:47 your own likeness your own biological dna do they does that justify the use of any means whatsoever
00:09:55 to achieve that end so is there a point at which having children becomes an i becomes an idol to
00:10:05 where we are willingly engaged in sinful acts in order to get this good blessing.
00:10:13 And I think part of the problem is we don't really understand the process of in vitro fertilization,
00:10:20 what it is, what it entails, and what God has commanded about the one flesh union between a husband and a wife, right?
00:10:30 So what I like to do when talking about IVF is start out, what is the process itself?
00:10:40 And looking through the lens of the incarnation, start asking, is this a proper means by which getting children is either sinful or not sinful?
00:10:55 Yeah, that's good.
00:10:57 Yeah, I was adopted as a baby.
00:11:00 And my parents were unable to conceive and so they adopted me and there are thousands of stories like that where God and his sovereign will chooses not to open the womb of a particular woman and they adopt a child and then the womb sometimes, but more often than you would think, gets opened.
00:11:17 And so, you know, I have three younger siblings that are, you know, biological to my parents, you know, and but I know that the Lord, you know, in his will, he did that so that I would be adopted.
00:11:27 But you're right. There does seem to at times to be this idolatry.
00:11:31 And we want to be careful with that. Right. Because if I had a penny for every single Gospel Coalition article about the idolatry of family, the idolatry of children, like basically like any like basically every conservative Christian biblical thing that God says is a blessing.
00:11:46 You can count on Timothy Keller to write an article about how it's, you know, an idol.
00:11:50 And then every bad thing that the Bible actually calls as sin, you can count on the gospel religion to say, but really.
00:11:57 But that's not what I'm talking about.
00:11:58 I know you're not.
00:11:59 What I mean is not resting in the providence of God and his sovereignty and committing sinful acts in order to achieve that good thing.
00:12:15 Amen.
00:12:15 You know, so, for example, right, we need to look at humans as image bearers, right?
00:12:24 Ontologically, they are the image of God.
00:12:28 There is no adding to or subtracting from the value of that image that each and every single one of us are, right?
00:12:39 We're not only created in His image, we reflect the image of God in a way that no other creature does.
00:12:45 Right.
00:12:45 Okay, so that's a good thing. Now, does that mean that there are not sinful means by which humans are created? No, there are definitely sinful means. You go out and have a one night stand and a child is conceived, that child has no less worth than a child that's conceived in a loving, monogamous Christian relationship between a husband and a wife, right?
00:13:09 a child conceived in rape has no less value because of the sinful way that that child came
00:13:17 into being conceived and and so what i like to look at is what is the process of ivf and are there
00:13:28 parts to that that go against the natural order because we also don't want to say that technology
00:13:36 is bad right because it's not technology is neutral in that sense it can be used for good
00:13:43 or it can be used for bad but it of itself does not necessarily mean that you're you're involved 1.00
00:13:50 with something evil right where i'm pro medicine um i think that um having ob-gyns is a good thing
00:14:00 I think that doctors dealing with infertility is a good thing.
00:14:05 I think that when a woman is pregnant, having a doctor help her go through the pregnancy and deliver the baby is a good thing.
00:14:14 But there's something about the actual conceiving of a new human that I think we really need to take a closer look at what is happening and what are the side effects sometimes as it happens.
00:14:29 And is there an ethical way to do IVF or is all of it bad?
00:14:37 Those are the things that Christians haven't been wrestling with publicly a lot.
00:14:42 No, you're right.
00:14:43 Yeah, I knew a family that would profess to be Christians and whether or not they're regenerate, I don't know.
00:14:47 God sees the heart.
00:14:48 There were some things that were concerning beyond the example that I'm about to cite that I would be hesitant. 0.69
00:14:54 But even if they were regenerate and not just professing, but actually Christians, in their
00:15:00 idolatry, in their case, it really was idolatry, they had received counsel from other people 0.73
00:15:05 who were more mature in the Lord saying, I don't think you should do this.
00:15:08 But, you know, they had a lot of support from their family.
00:15:11 Oh, my goodness.
00:15:11 Yeah, it's wonderful.
00:15:12 And so they ended up with triplets.
00:15:15 Praise God.
00:15:16 Three, you know, healthy children made in the image of God and 13 more children that
00:15:21 are frozen.
00:15:23 Right.
00:15:23 Right.
00:15:24 and each and every one of them are image bearers and deserve value dignity and worth that's right
00:15:31 so you know i i think it should be easy for christian to to say that um
00:15:39 it is unethical it is sinful to create humans to be killed yes right it's also should be easy to say
00:15:50 that it's sinful to unjustly incarcerate humans without due process.
00:15:58 And I think those should be two easy things that we should be able to say.
00:16:02 That's such a good way to say that, Kelly.
00:16:04 Say that again, like in terms of, I know what you're referring to,
00:16:07 but just to make sure nobody missed that in terms of the ones that aren't killed
00:16:11 but are frozen is an incarceration without trial.
00:16:15 And not even just for life, but, well, I guess it would be for life
00:16:19 because eventually they'll die. 0.80
00:16:20 Go ahead. Right. So like right now, there's upwards in the United States, two million human beings that are stored in liquid nitrogen indefinitely, as long as the parents, you know, pay for storage of their incarceration until they are wanted or needed or will be used. 0.88
00:16:45 that's that should be a an issue for christians that seek justice and and i'm not talking about
00:16:54 you know desperate inequalities or or anything like that i'm talking about actual justice
00:17:01 right like we are incarcerating we're holding these humans captive
00:17:08 until we're ready to have them right ready to ready to bring them to an understanding of christ
00:17:21 right then because that is the telos of of all humans right and and when we're leaving these
00:17:29 children in liquid nitrogen we're depriving them of the telos of man which is to know god and and
00:17:40 glorify him we're not giving them that that opportunity we're neglectful in our duty as
00:17:47 parents to raise up our children in the admonition of the lord right we're we're not bringing them
00:17:55 to jesus is is one of the issues right every like the bible draws a clear line the dots are right
00:18:02 next to each other it's not hard to connect them there's a clear line from every child that the
00:18:06 lord gives to us that we bear that we beget through procreation we have a responsibility to provide
00:18:13 for and to protect fathers particularly mothers also but fathers particularly to provide and
00:18:19 protect and that would be physical provision for their welfare all those different things that
00:18:22 Sadly, the state often swoops in, but that falls on fathers, familial fathers, and then also that would include the child's education to train them up and the fear and admonition of the Lord so that the father is ultimately responsible.
00:18:35 He may outsource that to a biblically permissible party, such as the mother with homeschool as the father is working out of the home, or perhaps like a Christian classical education.
00:18:46 He can't outsource that to the pagan secular state, but he can, you know, so anyways, but he bears ultimate responsibility. 0.67
00:18:52 He's the captain on the ship. 0.84
00:18:54 If something goes wrong, it's his fault.
00:18:56 So he's got to provide that's that's food, that's clothing, that's health care, all those kinds of things.
00:19:00 He's got to he's got to provide.
00:19:02 And that also includes a Christian, distinctly Christian education.
00:19:05 And he has to provide for every single child that the Lord gives to him.
00:19:09 And if he's not willing or able to provide for those children.
00:19:12 And, well, the Bible has a verse for that guy that he's, you know, if a man is not willing to provide. 1.00
00:19:18 He's worse than an unbeliever. 1.00
00:19:19 That's right. 1.00
00:19:19 He's denied the faith. 1.00
00:19:20 So, yeah, that's really good, man. 1.00
00:19:23 Go ahead.
00:19:23 So, and that's with the frozen children, right?
00:19:27 But there's also the act of killing these children, right?
00:19:33 So of the IVF-created children, 5% go to scientific research and study, right?
00:19:45 And so what happens there is they take these humans and run experiments on them for the greater good of society to help develop vaccines,
00:19:57 to help develop you know all kinds of different medical things to just see what kind of genetic
00:20:04 mutations we can create there's all kinds of testing that goes on with embryos that are created
00:20:12 in ivf and like i said that's about five percent and the end result of each and every one of those
00:20:20 is the the death of that human right so they are tortured and killed but the scientists will say
00:20:29 you know we're doing these scientific you know genetic research for the the betterment of society
00:20:36 for the for the greater good of humanity um and that should repulse christians that that should
00:20:43 remind us of various uh eugenics programs that have gone out to wipe out various demographic 0.56
00:20:51 populations in order to have a pure breed or um you know deal away with down syndrome by killing
00:21:02 all of the children that have down so you know that type of thing we should be against that
00:21:07 And when it comes to how successful we are at creating these humans, the success rate is not very good at all.
00:21:21 We're talking about maybe 10% of all of the children that are creating in the lab end up becoming born.
00:21:32 The attrition rate is insane.
00:21:36 And when they use her nutrition, that's just like death, right? 0.99
00:21:40 So we do these, we inject the women with chemicals, right? 1.00
00:21:48 And because women produce about 20 cycles, right, that's normal. 1.00
00:21:56 From the time they're born, they have these eggs already, 0.77
00:21:59 and then the baby releases those eggs on a specific time to go along with her cycle.
00:22:05 And generally what happens is of this 20 or so eggs, one will advance ahead of all of the other ones.
00:22:15 And if a couple has sex, then the chances of that one egg becoming fertilized can happen.
00:22:24 And the rest of the eggs never get fertilized and they just kind of slough off.
00:22:28 But what happens with stimulated IVF or mini-stimulation IVF is they go in and they retrieve all 20 of those eggs or sometimes less, 5, 10 of those eggs.
00:22:43 And they pull all of those eggs that came from that cycle and then they fertilize each egg individually in a Petri dish.
00:22:52 and uh they watch them over a period of days and and throughout that time most of them die
00:23:01 and the ones that live will either be uh transferred back into the woman after taking a
00:23:08 bunch of um hormones that tricks the body into believing that it's pregnant and they
00:23:15 thaw out the children to match that time and then transfer the egg into the woman and hope that it
00:23:23 transfers and transplants itself into the uterus the the attrition rate or the death rate is about
00:23:30 90 so i i think that's the other aspect that christians need to look at it are are we willing
00:23:36 to say that killing nine children in the hopes that i can have one child after my own likeness
00:23:45 in my own biology is that something that is ethical and we don't have a tendency of looking
00:23:53 in those terms right right and we're not talking you know just to make the hypothetical you know
00:23:58 to set the stage you know as accurately as possible we're not talking about 10 children
00:24:02 that would exist either way and and we're trying you know it's like we'd like to save all 10 of
00:24:06 them, but we can only save one. Like if there are 10 children, um, that God has created, um,
00:24:12 regardless then, yeah, then you save as many as you can. If you can only save one, then you save
00:24:17 one. But we're talking about creating nine children for the purpose of death. Um, so that
00:24:22 we don't have one. Um, so we're talking about, you know, we're not talking about children that
00:24:26 are already out there. Uh, we're talking about, we're talking about creating children with,
00:24:31 with the knowledge. And it's not like, well, we thought all 10 would work. No, like with the
00:24:35 knowledge that, um, that, that 90% attrition rate, like that you're going to do this and, uh, you're
00:24:41 going to be creating, you know, nine kids, uh, that will die and maybe one of them will, will
00:24:46 torture and then it will die, you know, or maybe three of them will live, but we're going to
00:24:50 incarcerate them. They're going to be frozen. Will you give your consent for that so that you can
00:24:54 have one baby that you get to hold? Um, right. And, and Christians, uh, will sign and say, yeah,
00:24:59 yeah we're our bible allows for that right because children are a blessing from god and
00:25:06 and this is a good thing that we're seeking right so um there is something that they call ethical
00:25:13 ivf um where children are not intentionally killed or are made um and then frozen i i think we need
00:25:25 to say if children are killed or children are frozen that should be the easy part to go we're
00:25:31 we can't be part of that right that's 99.9 percent of all ivf um what they call ethical ivf
00:25:40 where they um pull the eggs from the woman and they freeze the eggs so those aren't humans right
00:25:48 those are eggs they're not they're not in right they're not individual instantiations of humanity
00:25:54 They are not human beings, they're eggs.
00:25:57 And then they thaw out two of those eggs over time and they fertilize those two eggs and then do the transfer there.
00:26:08 I've talked to several couples that are going through that.
00:26:13 And the reason they chose that route, even though it's way more expensive and the vast majority of IVF doctors won't even do it,
00:26:19 is because they do recognize that killing and freezing children is wrong,
00:26:26 but they still want to have children.
00:26:28 This situation is a little harder to deal with, and it's so small.
00:26:36 It really is less than 0.1% of all IBF.
00:26:41 but the issue for for me when i talk to them is comes down to the actual creation of the human
00:26:52 and i think there is something very important about the one flesh union that god has commanded
00:26:59 in procreation i think there's something very important about a husband and a wife coming
00:27:08 together in that one plus union that is missing in the the lab created human where third and
00:27:20 fourth parties are involved in the creation of that human right where we're
00:27:27 i wouldn't go so far as to to say it's like lusting that that's not what i'm trying to say
00:27:35 Um, but you are bringing someone in to the act of creating a new human that should not be there.
00:27:44 Right.
00:27:44 That would, right.
00:27:47 Yeah, no, I think that that's a good point.
00:27:49 I think that, um, you know, one of the things that I've noticed as a pastor is that when it comes to, you know, conversations with congregants about, you know, family and children and sex, you know, marriage counseling and all those kinds of things that we participate in as local pastors.
00:28:05 I've noticed, and I used to do this as well, but I think the Lord, by his grace, has changed
00:28:10 my heart and sanctified me in this area.
00:28:12 But when we think about sex, we know that sex, God has instituted sex for multiple purposes.
00:28:20 Procreation, I would say, I would argue is one of the chief purposes, but we know that's
00:28:24 not the only purpose.
00:28:25 But the problem is that what we sometimes do as man is it will take something that's
00:28:30 good and right that God created to be a blessing and to be enjoyed to his glory.
00:28:35 And we'll recognize that it has multiple purposes.
00:28:39 But then what we do is we try to dissect and sever each of those purposes.
00:28:43 So, you know, today we're having sex for intimacy and unification. 0.64
00:28:49 Today, this other day, we're going to have sex for pleasure. 0.98
00:28:53 You know, this other day we're going to have sex for procreation.
00:28:56 Whereas in biblical terms, you don't, like, the Bible would speak to multiple purposes for sex beyond merely procreation.
00:29:03 And although I do believe, again, that's one of the chief purposes of sex and the sexual union, the one flesh union.
00:29:10 But there are more purposes than merely procreation.
00:29:13 But what the Bible doesn't do is it doesn't divide.
00:29:15 It doesn't say, well, there are four purposes or six purposes.
00:29:19 And you can only do one or not the other.
00:29:21 Exactly.
00:29:21 And you get to choose like a buffet line.
00:29:23 You get to pick one or two purposes at a time each time.
00:29:27 That language is not in the Bible.
00:29:30 It's just not.
00:29:31 And so there is, I think, a theological argument that is worth serious consideration to be made about what are God's purposes for sex and has God given man the right to divide those purposes?
00:29:45 Right. Now, you know, so where does this leave us?
00:29:50 my position is that the creation of a new human is regulated by god right that the means by which
00:30:01 that happens god has prescribed for us how that is okay so you're gonna apply husband and a wife
00:30:07 you're gonna as a particular baptist you're going to apply the regular principle to the one flesh
00:30:12 yeah i get that right yeah okay go ahead um but what what do we do with with these children that
00:30:20 are already created that are you know in liquid nitrogen that are frozen you know because we're
00:30:27 going to have people in our congregation that just don't know right and they've always thought
00:30:33 that ivf is a good thing because we're seeking children and they come to a realization wow okay
00:30:39 this this is bad two million children we have like say three families in our congregation that
00:30:46 have a total of 15 children in liquid nitrogen they can't have that many children right so what
00:30:53 what do we do am i is it okay to what do we do with these children right and i would say it's
00:30:59 the responsibility of the parents and the church to rescue these children right these are our
00:31:06 children covenanted to our church let's find them good christian homes let's adopt these children
00:31:13 right um so some people ask then why is embryo adoption okay even though it falls under the
00:31:25 umbrella of ivf and like back to your regular principle argument saying so there's still going
00:31:30 to be a third party in this holy to what's meant to be two party one flesh union you're still
00:31:37 inviting the third party how come it's okay with the adoption but not the creation because
00:31:41 see and that's the thing it's because i think that the issue is in the creating of the new human
00:31:48 right so i don't find it bringing a third party in as a doctor to do um checkups on the pregnant
00:31:57 wife right i don't think that at all or the delivery of the child i think those are good
00:32:04 technologies and doctors that we ought to use right um and so if there was real quick if there
00:32:11 was a complication in the pregnancy it would be completely fine to bring in the third party that
00:32:15 medical expert to bring them in right to save the child so what you're saying is yeah we don't bring
00:32:21 in the third party for the one flesh union of creating life um correct but what we're talking
00:32:26 about in the case of adoption is bringing in the third party like you would bring in a doctor if
00:32:30 the child was already implanted in your womb you would you would bring that third party in
00:32:35 for the preservation and the saving of of life and that's what i i think that's a solid argument go
00:32:41 ahead the the problem is that i'm like even the success rate of embryo adoption is abysmal it
00:32:49 It really is.
00:32:53 There is a high likelihood that the children are going to die before being born.
00:32:59 That's just the reality of having these humans that are created and then frozen.
00:33:05 And I don't think that should stop us from trying to rescue these children, providing them a home, giving them a name, showing them love as humans.
00:33:15 and, you know, hope that you will be able to hold this baby
00:33:21 and bring them to the love of Christ.
00:33:26 Because that's really my whole focus in all of these issues
00:33:30 is bringing people to Jesus, right?
00:33:34 You know, like recognizing he is the sovereign God
00:33:38 that has the elect and has the reprobate. 0.77
00:33:41 I get that.
00:33:42 But that does not change what my duty is to humans, right?
00:33:48 The love I give to my enemy is either going to be the love of God that turns them to repentance, or it's going to be coals that they're heaping on their head.
00:33:59 I don't get to choose what it is, and it doesn't change the love that I give them.
00:34:02 But the love that we give, the word of God going forth, still has a purpose.
00:34:06 It never returns void, and that doesn't mean that every time the word of God goes forth that it results in salvation.
00:34:11 But it never returns void because God has multiple purposes.
00:34:13 But the love and the word and the truth and the training and the generosity, all these things still need to go out.
00:34:21 Because God has, whether it's for the damnation of the reprobate or the salvation of the elect, whatever it is, God has a purpose.
00:34:30 Yeah.
00:34:30 Yeah.
00:34:31 Okay.
00:34:32 So talk about this for a moment.
00:34:34 Cause I'm curious with, um, I was thinking about, um, well, with like, um, the, all these
00:34:42 children that died.
00:34:43 Right.
00:34:43 So, I mean, you know, with IVF that, you know, the 2 million that are currently incarcerated
00:34:47 without a trial, that's a, that, that is the biblical language.
00:34:50 That's so helpful.
00:34:52 Um, I knew that, you know, freezing kids is a, that's not where you want to be when Jesus
00:34:56 comes back, you know, freezing kids.
00:34:57 So I knew it was bad.
00:34:59 I knew it was wrong, but that, that just helps with specific language of this is in biblical
00:35:03 terms, how it's wrong. It's a, it's an unjust incarceration. Um, but beyond that, you know,
00:35:09 63 million aborted, and that's not even, you know, counting, you know, all the children that have,
00:35:13 you know, died because of abortion pills and things like that, you know, and potions and all
00:35:18 these, you know, so, I mean, we're probably, you know, well over a hundred million, you know,
00:35:21 in the last 49 years and, um, just in, in our nation alone. And so all of that, and then you
00:35:26 add IVF to the table and all the ones that have died because the 5% that had been experimented on
00:35:31 and the other, you know, the 90% attrition rate that you spoke to, the 2 million that are frozen,
00:35:36 most of those, sadly, will probably die. So, I mean, we're in, you know, I mean, the hundreds
00:35:41 of millions. It's probably like, without trying to exaggerate, you know, 150 million, maybe 200
00:35:45 million, you know, and all this in less than half of a century. So, with that, you know, and that's
00:35:50 all, you know, unethical. That's all sin. That's all murder. But apart from murder, just even
00:35:55 miscarriages and things like that, as a guy who's, you know, an abolitionist and a guy who's
00:36:01 involved with ivf and a guy who's a local pastor you know and so pastorally dealing with these
00:36:05 issues um you've got to have some thoughts on uh what happens to children if they die
00:36:10 in infancy yeah um i'm curious your position yeah um i prefer the 1689 before spurgeon got a hold of
00:36:22 where it says elect infants um and and that would be my my position um i i don't believe
00:36:32 that we can say that all infants or all pre-born children or all um mentally handicapped children
00:36:42 are are in heaven i don't think that we can say that um i also don't doubt how many
00:36:49 there are i i just i don't know i don't know who the elect are and i don't know who the
00:36:55 reprobate are i do know that we serve a good god and that his providence is wiser than us
00:37:03 and that's what i rest on he he said that he he will save all of his and i believe that
00:37:14 who they are and what age they are what ethnicity they are what gender they are i i don't know you
00:37:22 know so i i would i would stick with uh elect infants right um is where i would rest no that's
00:37:30 good i i will say i despise the 1689s uh and i'm a 1689 guy but their citations that you know they
00:37:37 quote uh john chapter three uh will the spirit blows where he wills you know it's like i know
00:37:43 what you're saying, but I'm like, man, that, that's, that verse, you know, just feels like
00:37:47 a bit of a stretch to make the argument that you're making, but I'm 100% with you. Elect
00:37:51 infants, I think is, um, just, it's, it's way easier to rest our hat on that than to
00:37:56 say all infants. Uh, because the problem, the problem with all, um, all children who 1.00
00:38:00 die in infancy or, or with certain mental disabilities and those kinds of things, the
00:38:04 problem with that is that, um, the, the type of argumentation that's often used, um, you
00:38:11 can argue the opposite. I think just as easily, if not tragically, even more easily, I feel like I
00:38:17 could actually make a stronger biblical argument to say that in the providence of God, faith cometh
00:38:22 by hearing, hearing by the word of Christ, right? Romans 10, 14, how will they believe unless they
00:38:26 hear? How will they hear unless someone preaches? And I can say that in God's providence, he will
00:38:32 ensure that all his elect physically are preserved to the hearing of the words to be coupled with
00:38:40 the spirit's work in regeneration. Like I can make that, I don't like that argument. That's
00:38:45 not my position, but I can, I can biblically, I can, I can easily argue that the child who dies
00:38:53 in infancy was not preserved because the same God who's sovereign over the ends of salvation
00:38:59 is also sovereign over the means of grace by which he brings it about. We can't sever ends,
00:39:05 God's predestinated ends from his predestinated means. And the predestinated means chiefly is
00:39:10 the preached word. How will they believe unless they hear? But also what that entails is not just
00:39:16 the preached word, but also it entails God sending missionaries, right? Until 13th century Japan,
00:39:21 people in Japan died and went to hell, right? That's why we send missionaries. If God is saving 1.00
00:39:28 people who haven't heard the gospel because a missionary hasn't arrived, then let's stop sending
00:39:34 missionaries. Let's do people a great service by not making them accountable. And then the other
00:39:40 argument would be like, um, you know, so, well, I think all, all children are, you know, who die
00:39:45 in infancy are saved because of this age of accountability. Um, but, but the problem with
00:39:51 that is, you know, like with the age of accountability and those kinds of things that
00:39:54 like they're, they're innocent. Um, that's just not what the Bible teaches. David says in sin,
00:39:59 did my mother conceive me in iniquity? So that, that would deny total depravity. Uh, that would
00:40:04 deny the need for regeneration. So that's not saying that God, um, actually regenerates and
00:40:09 saves elect infants that's saying um no elect infants need no regeneration uh because that's
00:40:16 like a roman catholic kind of kind of thing you know where we're you know what's interesting about
00:40:21 that is a lot of times that they'll quote genesis uh shall not the god do right you know and
00:40:30 not recognizing that he's talking about judgment right he's right right he didn't 50 40 30 he didn't
00:40:38 find any righteous you know and because we're all covenanted to adam you know and and in that
00:40:48 covenant we have his sin guilt and condemnation that's right that's that's what being born of
00:40:55 the flesh is and until um by god's grace he moves you from that covenant of death in adam
00:41:06 into covenant with christ and you have his righteousness there there is no hope for you
00:41:12 regardless of what your age is or or what sin you've done before um because that condemnation
00:41:19 either is going on you being a son of adam where you are at enmity with the seed of
00:41:26 the woman or you are his and he took your condemnation and you have his righteousness
00:41:34 I'm like, yes, that's the whole law gospel.
00:41:37 That's the whole covenant of works, covenant of grace.
00:41:40 And it's you're you have one father.
00:41:45 He's either you're either of the devil or of Christ.
00:41:48 There's no in between.
00:41:51 And we all every one of us start out sons of Adam.
00:41:55 Right. And it's not once we're born and reach, you know, year and a half age and sin for the first time, which would be younger than that.
00:42:03 you know, probably like nine, 10 months, you start, that's when I see my little kids, you know,
00:42:07 right around the nine month age is when they start rearing their back, you know, when you're
00:42:11 changing their diaper and it's like, you're not just crying because you're uncomfortable.
00:42:15 You're being defiant. This is, this is it. And so, but it's not just like they become that we
00:42:21 become sinners because we sin. No, we sin because we're sinners that we're actually, and we're not
00:42:28 just born in sin. We're conceived in sin. So I completely agree with you. One more,
00:42:33 follow-up question with that though um what do you think right so elect infants i'm with you
00:42:38 um agree with that um what do you think in terms of children of believers right so paul talks about
00:42:44 the children believers being holy i recognize you're a particular baptist you're not presbyterian
00:42:48 i understand that you would um you don't want to create the halfway house you know with a covenant
00:42:54 children before regeneration you're either in you know in christ or in adam um so i get all that um
00:43:00 But with that said, do you think that perhaps, I guess what I'm saying is pastorally wanting to comfort people in our church, Christians, who have a miscarriage or have a child die.
00:43:14 I remember, oh my goodness, horrible story.
00:43:17 I think it was, you know, maybe seven, I don't know, maybe it was 10 years ago, but I remember it was right before Christmas.
00:43:22 and uh there was a family in the town where i grew up and their two-year-old pulled on the plug of a
00:43:29 just old you know not the flat screen high you know technology nice tvs that we have today but
00:43:34 an old big tv that's you know that's weighs a ton and pulled on the cord it was up high up on a on
00:43:41 a dresser and it fell and crushed the child and killed him and this two-year-old died right before
00:43:46 christmas time and it was a small town so everybody knew the family and just absolutely tragic i'm
00:43:51 thinking pastorally like can i give any more comfort right elect is elect god right there's
00:43:57 nothing about the creature that binds the creator to to choose one over the other there's no there's
00:44:04 no such thing as elect semen right there's there's no such thing as regenerate biology
00:44:09 but we do have scripture that talks about god keeping steadfast covenant to generations the
00:44:17 children of believers or even just one believing spouse the children are holy so can we even as
00:44:24 particular baptist with a view of a particular baptist version of covenant succession can we
00:44:31 give not a guarantee but can we give added consolation and added added comfort and hope
00:44:38 that that by virtue to the members in our church who are faithful christians saying
00:44:42 And we do think that that that that God has a particular kindness towards the children of believers.
00:44:49 Yeah. So I would say so, because here's the thing.
00:44:54 Profession doesn't save you like that in the sense that we need to confess.
00:45:01 All that confess to God, all that profess his name will be saved.
00:45:07 He's not saying that just by opening your mouth and saying anything, you're going to be saved because you can only.
00:45:12 do that if changed your heart um it's it is god that changes hearts and minds and brings his
00:45:23 children to himself it is god that teaches his children and and they're going to be blessed
00:45:28 it is god himself like you're bringing up that that bit in romans like unless you how are you
00:45:37 going to believe unless you hear i think that the greek there leans towards hear god right not not
00:45:45 hear about god but like hear god himself um and i don't think that that necessarily means um you
00:45:53 auditorily hear right i believe in the means of grace where it is the spirit of god applying the
00:46:00 work of christ on on uh the people of god through word and sacrament um and i do believe that
00:46:09 children can be saved i believe that children in the womb can be saved how that works i don't know
00:46:16 but i do believe that john the baptist recognized jesus that's right you know and left with joy
00:46:22 he was he didn't just recognize jesus and shudder he was excited about jesus he loved jesus
00:46:28 so i don't believe doctrine saves us i don't believe that saying that we believe the right
00:46:35 things saves us and i think what the are what justifies us is faith that's given to us by god
00:46:44 that's right um and and he does that through the work of his spirit and the work of the spirit can
00:46:50 do that to infants can do that to children in the womb it can do it to a 90 year old guy on his his
00:46:58 deathbed right who's mute so who's when it can't speak right right um god can save whoever wants
00:47:08 to however he wants to but he has promised that there is something about fidelity within a um
00:47:18 a marriage covenant to family that he he holds to like um the church that i pastor right now
00:47:27 Three-fourths of our baptized membership, they're minors.
00:47:32 They're children, right?
00:47:35 Various ages.
00:47:38 I do think he saves them.
00:47:40 And the largest, I don't want to say the largest, I think a very important, one of the most important evangelistic mission fields that we have is our family, right?
00:47:55 And mothers and fathers teaching their children.
00:47:59 That's how we build his church.
00:48:00 And I think there is a special loving kindness that he does give to Christian families that are doing that to protect the children until justification has to happen in time and space.
00:48:19 you know we we deny like gill's version of eternal justification and stuff like that
00:48:25 it happens in time and space um you know obviously it has to happen before you die
00:48:31 and that god honors those types of um family fidelity right because it is where i lean on that
00:48:41 so i do think we can comfort them um and i think that that is a good time to comfort them
00:48:49 you know i completely agree because it is a real loss like it's this is not only a human
00:48:56 that has died which should be sad for us anyways but this is your child that god
00:49:02 gave to you to watch over i mean the child belongs to him regardless he's he's just entrusted that
00:49:10 child to you for this time for the express purpose of bringing him to the knowledge of jesus
00:49:18 That, that, that is your goal and how that goes about in life. Okay. You're, you're free to do
00:49:25 however you do in order to accomplish that. You know, as long as you're, you're not doing
00:49:31 something sinful. Right. And I think God does bless that. Yeah. Amen. When you were talking
00:49:40 about like, you know, if you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart, you know, like
00:49:43 those who profess Jesus. I think one thing that we often don't think about that I think would be
00:49:48 helpful for our listeners, I don't know if I've ever discussed this before on our show, but
00:49:53 I remember thinking about this a lot when I was preaching through 1 John. 1 John, so much of it
00:49:59 is about assurance of salvation. I ended up writing a book on it, am I truly saved? And just
00:50:04 giving multiple tests for the individual to be able to see, like, am I in the faith? Examine
00:50:10 yourself to see if you're in the faith. And John gives the test of obedience, the moral test. He
00:50:15 gives the truth test, the test of doctrine, biblical doctrine, and a right confession of
00:50:21 Christ that's both biblical, the actual person and work of Christ as the Bible states, but also
00:50:28 personal, right? The apostle Paul, Galatians chapter two, it's not just that Jesus, that he
00:50:33 lived and died and rose again for someone somewhere out there, but that the son of God loved me and
00:50:39 gave himself up for me so it's a biblical confession that's also a personal confession
00:50:43 and it's a you know a biblical meaning accurate confession of both the person the work of christ
00:50:48 so the doctrinal test the truth test and then the moral test you know obedience john says again and
00:50:53 again are we walking in his commandments not because our obedience saves us but it is an
00:50:57 evidence of faith that saves us you know the fruit of faith and then you know there's also the love
00:51:03 test right that having love for one another right even you know that will love for the least of
00:51:08 these, whatever you do for the least of these. Yeah. But Jesus is the least of these, my brothers,
00:51:12 you know, that you're not just that you're visiting the prisoner. There is a biblical,
00:51:16 you know, a category for love for neighbor. And we have a global neighborhood because we have
00:51:21 universal neighborhood because we have a universal creatorhood of God is the creator of all, but we
00:51:25 have not universal brotherhood because we don't have universal fatherhood. God is father, the
00:51:31 Lord Jesus Christ, and all those who have union with him by faith. And so otherwise, you know,
00:51:35 there's another father, the father of lies, you know, the devil. And so all those things being
00:51:40 said, so there's a love test, but I started really thinking, you know, in terms of that
00:51:45 doctrinal test, the truth test, a right, a biblical and personal confession. I really
00:51:51 started thinking about that profess with your mouth and believe in your heart and you will be
00:51:54 saved. And what I came down to that I think is accurate as I've checked it against, you know,
00:52:00 Puritans and the reformers and those kinds of, is that we don't often think about it like this,
00:52:04 but a profession is a work. And that doesn't mean that it doesn't matter. But I would say that
00:52:12 your profession of Christ as Savior and Lord is a work. It's simply the first, and almost in terms
00:52:21 of chronological time, it's the first and almost immediate work. But it is a work. It is the result,
00:52:29 the fruit, the evidence, one of the first results, fruits and evidence of faith. And so we are saved
00:52:35 by grace is the gift of God so that no one can boast. That grace is received through faith. Faith
00:52:42 is the instrument that lays hold of grace. But then if we're trying to place in our order salutis,
00:52:48 you know, like a profession, the profession would be an evidence, a fruit, a work, just like
00:52:53 obeying the 10 commandments, you know, it would, and it just would be the first work. So my point
00:52:58 is that if God saves someone by grace through faith, um, and, and they're mute, they're still
00:53:06 saved because, because, um, the person who doesn't profess because of unwillingness, we would say,
00:53:12 well, that's, you're not saved, not because professions save you. Um, grace through faith
00:53:18 saves you, but grace through faith bears fruit. And someone who is, who is refusing to make a
00:53:24 profession. We say, your lack of fruit, your refusal to bear fruit in one of these clear,
00:53:29 clear areas of scripture, right? If somebody refused to be baptized, I would question their
00:53:34 salvation. And rightfully so. If somebody refused to be faithful in marriage, all those different 1.00
00:53:38 things. And so it would be the refusal of a profession. It's not that the profession saves
00:53:44 you. It's just that you're refusing to bear fruit in this area, which means there's a lack of
00:53:49 evidence of the grace through faith that actually does save you. So, so I think that's important
00:53:55 for people to understand. You're not saved by casting a spell and, and having the right
00:54:00 pronunciation and articulate. If you say these words in this order and enunciate and emphasize
00:54:05 that, you know, this inflection, you know, like, no, no, no, you're saved by grace through faith.
00:54:10 That's it. And a profession, if we had to categorize it, the profession of Christ that
00:54:15 is both biblical and personal. It's not grace. It's not faith. It is a work. It is an evidence.
00:54:23 It's simply one of the first works and evidences of the person who has been born again by grace
00:54:28 through faith in Christ alone. And so if somebody is unwilling, that calls serious things into
00:54:33 question. I would be confident saying, I'm sorry, I can give you no assurance of being a brother.
00:54:38 you won't profess Christ. You will not confess Christ as Lord, you know, but, but the person
00:54:44 who's unable, that's a completely different story. Right. Would you agree with that?
00:54:49 You know, you, you know, like you're talking about this and, and we hear phrases that are
00:54:56 from the Bible of like repent and believe, right? Like you, you need to repent and believe
00:55:01 that's work
00:55:03 there's no way to get around
00:55:06 repenting and believing is a work
00:55:08 God will not repent
00:55:09 and he does not believe
00:55:12 for you
00:55:12 you in time and space
00:55:15 have to believe
00:55:16 it works its way
00:55:30 out in justification and i would argue it does the same thing in sanctification like
00:55:35 your sanctification is not you doing better this week than you did last week or the week before
00:55:42 but rather your sanctification is the spirit of god applying the work of christ in your life
00:55:47 transforming you into the image of the sun and that looks like something in time and space right
00:55:54 It looks like you repenting and believing when it,
00:55:58 when it comes to like assurance.
00:56:03 I always point back to the argument that the author of Hebrews makes on,
00:56:11 on how one can know that they are saved on the assurance that they have.
00:56:16 And it's that there is none more powerful than God.
00:56:21 There's no authority greater for him to swear on.
00:56:26 He is omnipotent.
00:56:27 No one is more powerful than God.
00:56:30 And he does not lie.
00:56:32 He does not change.
00:56:33 So if he is the all-powerful God who does not change,
00:56:38 then he will preserve you.
00:56:43 He will protect you.
00:56:44 He will sanctify you.
00:56:47 He will finish the work that he did in you.
00:56:50 Um, I think it would help people a lot more if they read a little bit more of like the
00:56:59 marrow controversy and, uh, saw how these men, um, tried to work their way through this
00:57:09 idea of, of works versus grace, you know, like, what does it look like?
00:57:15 Because we don't want to end up with, you know, ideas like Piper puts out with final justification or some of the federal vision, which has its other issues of monocovenantalism.
00:57:31 Right.
00:57:31 And it's similar.
00:57:32 There's final justification.
00:57:34 Our assurance is 100% on Christ and his work.
00:57:41 He is the one that plucked us from the fire.
00:57:45 he is the one that's transforming us he is the one that is receiving a people as an inheritance
00:57:55 and god will stop at nothing to burn away all of our idols leaving nothing left but the
00:58:04 righteousness of christ amen that's that's how i would yeah gohardus voss he you know he once said
00:58:12 I'm convinced that
00:58:13 Christ will never cease to love me because
00:58:16 he never began
00:58:16 one of the most comforting
00:58:20 truths that we have is like what you're saying is
00:58:22 that much of our assurance rests on we don't think
00:58:24 of this we think of the love of Christ but
00:58:25 you actually mentioned not only the love of Christ
00:58:28 but the love of Christ in relation to
00:58:30 the immutability of
00:58:32 God behold I
00:58:34 am the Lord I changeth not so 0.97
00:58:36 that you the sons of Jacob are not 0.75
00:58:37 consumed like one of the reasons that the
00:58:39 Christian can have comfort
00:58:41 is because we're not consumed.
00:58:46 We know that God never changes,
00:58:49 that he never ceases to love us because he never began.
00:58:52 He's not a man that he should change his mind.
00:58:54 He never started to love us.
00:58:56 I mean, there is a sense.
00:58:57 Justification, like you said, happens in real time.
00:58:59 So there is a sense in which we were once his enemies
00:59:01 and now we have been adopted as his beloved children.
00:59:04 But there is also a sense in which God has always loved his elect.
00:59:08 It's not just that Jesus came to the world to make us lovable.
00:59:11 But for God so loved the world, while we were yet sinners, he sent Jesus.
00:59:16 And so, anyway, so I was just saying.
00:59:17 With the love that he has for the Son.
00:59:20 Right.
00:59:21 I mean, it's the very love that he has for the Son.
00:59:23 Right.
00:59:23 You know, you bring up 1 John, and one thing that I find really fascinating about that is when he talks about fellowship one to another, right?
00:59:35 That's the same word for communion, participate, to share.
00:59:40 There is a real spiritual union that goes on between believer to the next believer.
00:59:51 And I would argue that it's the same spiritual participation that we have and union we have with Christ that brings believers spiritually together as one body.
01:00:05 And it's not about hanging out or having lunch or doing nice stuff together, but that it's an actual supernatural event.
01:00:15 And I think that's one thing that's really lacking in a lot of modern churches is the understanding of the supernatural.
01:00:23 And I'm not talking superstition.
01:00:24 I'm talking about real spiritual.
01:00:29 You're either participating with demons or at the table of the Lord.
01:00:33 It's one of the two.
01:00:34 and um post enlightenment we have this uh you know like we bow down to it we go okay yeah no
01:00:42 there is a spiritual realm but we we act as if it's not real or dealing with anything spiritual
01:00:49 is more superstitious and obviously we deny Rome and the superstition there but we need to
01:00:58 I think grab a hold of the very real, I mean, that's what the whole means of grace is based off of.
01:01:05 And I think it helps us to do that when we recognize that spiritual union is one believer to the next believer as well.
01:01:13 That there's a spiritual unity that binds us as a spirit.
01:01:17 That's right. Yeah, that we are actually discerning the body and the body being actually the people, the people of Christ.
01:01:25 No, you're absolutely right. And I think one of the reasons with our enlightenment version of Christianity, because we've tried to marry these things, which is impossible, but because we've gotten too big for our britches and too intellectual and all those kind of things, what you're talking about is precisely the reason why churches were so quick to close their doors with COVID and so slow to open them.
01:01:47 Because at the end of the day, people don't actually believe that something happens when the saints gather together on the Lord's day for the administering of the ordinary means of grace, right?
01:01:57 First Corinthians chapter 10, just as there is one bread, we who are many are made one, that something actually happens.
01:02:04 And, you know, Matthew chapter 18, like where two or three are gathered.
01:02:07 It's not just two or three guys in a college dorm at a Christian campus, you know, with a djembe and an ovation guitar singing Kumbaya, my Lord, right?
01:02:14 No, Jesus is talking about being uniquely present, particularly with authority, given the context of church discipline.
01:02:22 But he's talking about the Lord's Day gathering.
01:02:24 And when he says two or three, well, why does he say two or three?
01:02:27 Well, because you can have a small church.
01:02:29 That's why he says two or three.
01:02:30 But it's two or three baptized confessors who have made a right confession.
01:02:34 They are true confessors.
01:02:36 They've been baptized into the Lord Jesus.
01:02:38 And baptism is how the one joins the many.
01:02:41 And in the Lord's Supper, the renewal oath ceremony that we have, the many are made one.
01:02:47 And when these ordinary means of grace are rightly administered by biblically qualified officers, ordained officers of the church and the saints are gathered together on the first day of the week when Christ rose from the dead, the Christian Sabbath, he promises Christ who is omnipresent, always present with believers by virtue of the indwelling ministry of the Holy Spirit.
01:03:07 But he's always present, but he promises to be especially or uniquely present in that earthly context.
01:03:14 And there is no other earthly context, but the church gathered where Christ promises to be uniquely present.
01:03:22 And what we said when we closed our doors and guys didn't open them up for months is we said, you know what?
01:03:27 At the end of the day, we don't need Christ.
01:03:31 And if you press them on that, they say, of course we need Jesus.
01:03:33 But we've got Jesus in our living room with Zoom.
01:03:35 We've got Jesus.
01:03:36 And it's because they're too big for their britches, they're too practical, they're too scientific, too, you know, not real science, but the science, you know, too enlightened, it's the enlightenment, to just, to believe that good old time religion of the supernatural that like, no, no, something, something magical happens and not like magical and some, you know, like some mystical.
01:03:59 Yeah, right.
01:03:59 Yeah, something happens.
01:04:01 You know, what's interesting about that?
01:04:03 Yeah, and I would say that I think what happened during the COVIDs and the tyranny from the state and all of these institutions closing their doors and not worshiping, showing that they actually worship, I think that was a good thing.
01:04:22 I mean, Jesus said to preserve his church, that he is going to present her, the entire church, holy, blameless, and spotless, that as a priest, he is purging the sin from within.
01:04:36 And, you know, I think it was a great show of false churches.
01:04:44 Not all of them were false.
01:04:45 I would say a lot of them are.
01:04:48 And a lot of people that thought that they were Christians come to realize that they're not.
01:04:52 A lot of, you know, small faith Christians inside some of these churches started to recognize that their churches aren't true churches, that they've, while every church has a mixture of truth and error, they recognize that theirs has devolved into a synagogue of Satan.
01:05:14 I think all of that is good. 0.75
01:05:17 I think that in the providence of God, he's exposing, he's forcing us to see that cultural Christianity is not Christianity. 0.94
01:05:26 That's right. 0.89
01:05:27 And I think that's, I think it's a beautiful thing.
01:05:31 Yep, I completely agree.
01:05:32 Yeah, it's a mercy of the Lord.
01:05:33 It was hard, but the Lord, it was his merciful providence to lift the veil.
01:05:39 And for some people, it was already lifted, but for the normies, right, that's what the kids call it.
01:05:43 You know, they didn't see a lot of these things until the last two and a half years, and that was a mercy of the Lord to actually reveal to his sheep, no, this really is a problem, and this person really is a wolf, and this person really, and so I completely agree with you.
01:05:58 And for the record, I think there are churches that got it wrong that still are true churches, but here's the linchpin.
01:06:05 Did they repent?
01:06:07 And that's what I've been shocked about.
01:06:08 it's not just that church is closed, but now that like so much just absolutely undeniable
01:06:14 evidence has surfaced, like, you know, like love your neighbor, get the vax. And then we find out
01:06:18 it wasn't even tested for its ability to stop transmission. Meaning the vax was, it was not
01:06:24 tested for its ability. It's love, love your neighbor ability. Great. So David French, right?
01:06:31 And, you know, and Russell Moore, like I would love to see an apology. I would love, I would
01:06:37 love for there to be clear repentance. And in their cases, you know, there needs to be repentance
01:06:43 and also they need, you know, they need to resign because, you know, there's a certain point where
01:06:47 there's repentance and okay, this person is a brother in Christ, but not every brother in
01:06:51 Christ gets to lead, right? If you, if it takes you, right, if it took you a few weeks, that's
01:06:57 one thing. But if it takes you 900 days and you're just now realizing what's going on, then that's,
01:07:04 I mean, just by the mere fact of how slow you were to be able to discern some of it, you just don't have the giftings of a leader.
01:07:10 You're just not able to lead people.
01:07:11 Yeah.
01:07:12 You know, so I don't know.
01:07:13 So what do we do? What do we do? What do we do with the leadership of like fill in the blank denomination, whether it's the SBC or Presbyterian or Reformed Baptists that for the past 50 years have said that, you know, abortion is health care.
01:07:34 And instead of treating it like homicide, we should try to limit access to this bad thing.
01:07:42 You know, what do we do with them?
01:07:45 They're still not repenting of, you know, being on the side of legalizing abortion or at least being the religious backing for keeping abortion as health care.
01:08:01 Right. Great.
01:08:02 You're closing health care facilities in Texas, okay, but it's still completely legal in every single state for a woman to kill her own pre-born child. 0.99
01:08:14 And the church, by and large, still backs these health care laws. 0.69
01:08:20 So what do we do with those guys?
01:08:22 What do we do with the leadership that, like we were talking about before, for 40, 50 years are saying that the creation of humans, where 90% of them are going to die and a large percent are going to be frozen, incarcerated without due process, and you're behind that still?
01:08:42 I mean, what kind of repentance are we asking for from these religious leaders, even when they finally come out and go, OK, maybe this is a they're not even doing that for abortion.
01:08:54 They're saying, no, abortion is bad, but our strategy is still good.
01:08:57 I'm like, we need to show the bloody city and expose the sin. 0.67
01:09:06 Why do we think that the COVIDs and the tyranny of the state coming down on us, we're polluting the land with our abominations?
01:09:17 That's a biblical principle.
01:09:19 We came here, dispossessed the people that were here because of their abominations, because they sacrificed to their gods.
01:09:30 And there were memes about that during Columbus Day.
01:09:35 Yeah, our culture is better. 1.00
01:09:37 You were sacrificing all of these people on your Inca towers and stuff.
01:09:41 Of course, this is a better culture. 1.00
01:09:43 Okay, so we dispossessed them, and we polluted the blood with homosexuality. 1.00
01:09:48 right uh the slaughter of children on a scale that they couldn't even imagine right well what 1.00
01:09:55 what do we expect right of course the land ought to it ought to vomit us up so when we look at
01:10:03 these pastors and church leaders that close their churches and stuff i i agree with you
01:10:07 i i think that those guys were more than just wrong right like okay with the with the evidence
01:10:14 that we had we we made the wrong decision now i think it was it's more than that i think there's
01:10:21 a certain intentionality that does disqualify them to to lead groups of people but really what
01:10:30 why are we saying that for for the covid and uh for the vaccine but not for how we've handled the
01:10:38 the slaughter of children or or how we've had handled the the incarceration of children or
01:10:43 how we've handled fill in the blank thing well for the record i i would say about hundreds of
01:10:49 millions of children right okay i mean i would say that so just to answer your question i would say
01:10:54 that for anybody in the sbc who thinks that a woman is a victim rather than a murderer so my
01:11:00 position is that um that we should criminalize the not just illegal but that it should be
01:11:04 criminalized and it should be equal weights and measures um if there's a murder the death penalty
01:11:09 I would prefer in my perfect theonomic society that I'm working towards by God's grace. I think
01:11:14 it could happen one day. But I think lethal injection is not the best way to go. I think
01:11:19 a public hanging, these are crimes against humanity. I think the public should be able
01:11:22 to witness it. I think hanging is a good way to enact the death penalty. I think it's better than 0.90
01:11:30 a firing squad. I think it's better than lethal injection. I think there's a reason why early
01:11:35 christians when it came to capital punishment used hanging so anyways all those kind of things so i'm
01:11:40 i'm fully on board to say yeah this is in any man for that record you know for the record any man
01:11:44 who's complicit in the woman who's any person involved with it right absolutely so it's murder
01:11:48 so yeah and and it should be criminalized and anybody who is saying anybody who's like for
01:11:53 instance stopping the bill in louisiana e-r-l-c right um yeah you guys should uh you it's not
01:12:00 just you need to repent. You also need to step down. You are not qualified. So I would carry
01:12:06 that across the board and be consistent all the way. And I like what you said. I just, I have to
01:12:10 comment on that. You're absolutely right. We dispossessed demonic, demonic tribes. I mean,
01:12:17 I remember, you know, learning Texas history, even in public school, you know, growing up and
01:12:22 learning Texas history about the Caronquas because they were near, you know, they were on the Gulf
01:12:27 coast where, where I was going to school in Bay city, Texas, you know,
01:12:29 right there by Matagorda County, you know,
01:12:31 that's where I went to high school. That's where I went to middle school.
01:12:33 I remember sixth grade learning. And I was so fascinated learning about,
01:12:36 you know, indigenous people groups.
01:12:38 And we're learning about the Caronquas because they were kind of like in
01:12:40 Galveston area, you know, in Corpus Christi, and that's right where we were. 0.53
01:12:43 But they were cannibals. They were eating each other, you know? 0.57
01:12:47 And so like, I mean, you, you know, like slavery, right?
01:12:49 Like every nation in the world had slaves, every,
01:12:52 every nation in the world virtually had slaves,
01:12:55 three percent of the african slave trade was was north america the rest was south america and then
01:12:59 other african nations buying slaves from other african nations and then of course europe um 0.94
01:13:04 you know so yeah we dispossessed the people from the land um and the people who dispossessed them
01:13:09 we didn't i should say our our forefathers did they dispossessed right right and they were righteous 1.00
01:13:15 now they had their problems too i'm not saying they were perfect um i don't like the salem witch
01:13:19 trials i don't think that that was according to god's law with two or three witnesses um you know
01:13:23 So there was problems in, you know, Boston, Massachusetts, there were problems over here that, you know, but the covenanters, the founders, these guys, they were more righteous and God gave them the land.
01:13:34 And I believe that God providentially gave them the land for a reason.
01:13:37 I really do.
01:13:39 But I think that we right now are in a position to where, yeah, we are worthy of being dispossessed because of the, so you're absolutely.
01:13:48 The land ought to vomit us up.
01:13:50 Yeah.
01:13:50 For sure.
01:13:52 Right.
01:13:52 Right. So for us to be, you know, plagued by, you know, we weren't plagued by, you know, the bubonic plague or some kind of, you know, I do, I'm not a COVID denier.
01:14:00 I think there actually was COVID, but it certainly, I mean, it was, it was nothing like, you know, like the Spanish flu, which was no respecter of persons, right?
01:14:07 It wasn't just elderly and vulnerable and comorbidities.
01:14:09 You'd be 17 years old and healthy and drop dead.
01:14:12 And the state asked the church, they didn't command it.
01:14:14 They asked the church to close a hundred years ago with the Spanish flu and the church in America closed for three weeks, three weeks, and then got back.
01:14:21 So I think like for us to actually have a real plague, because COVID is not a real plague.
01:14:28 It is a real illness, sickness, but a virus, but a real plague would be well within God's
01:14:34 justice.
01:14:35 And for us to not, you know, to have a plague that was blown out of a virus that was blown
01:14:41 out of proportions by the state and have tyranny crushing the necks of churches, that
01:14:48 was just on god's part because of of what the church has tolerated what the church is more than
01:14:53 just tolerated but promulgated and so i brother i i agree with everything you said i think that
01:14:58 that was fantastic so i'm with you all right any let's let's go ahead and round it out i think
01:15:03 this has been great i think our listeners will be blessed by this conversation uh do you have
01:15:06 any final thoughts and then after that can you uh let our listeners know how they can follow you
01:15:10 and then also tell them the name of your church and where you're located in case there's anybody
01:15:13 in your area looking for a church right on so i'm in south texas in victoria county
01:15:21 the name of our church is sermon in the park we started as a homeless church in
01:15:29 queen city park and then over time this place let us use their building
01:15:36 um so i am in victoria texas um check out my documentary on infertility and ivf it's called
01:15:46 leaping time and you can find it on my youtube channel which is resisting balaam um or on a
01:15:55 podcast dealing with the culture of death and how we ought to fight it um if you're interested in
01:16:02 a longer doctrinal understanding of where we come up with some of the ideas
01:16:07 on IVF, go check out, uh, rescue those.com.
01:16:12 There's a like 30 page pamphlet dealing with this. Uh,
01:16:16 there's something called the red river statement.
01:16:23 And if you go to pro-life is not enough.com our most recent,
01:16:29 conference. There's, I don't know, like six different lectures that, that go through a lot
01:16:35 of the IVF stuff. So great. And just find me on the Facebook and ask me questions. You know,
01:16:42 I'm always down for that. Awesome. Great. Well guys, check out Callie and Callie. Thanks again
01:16:48 for coming on the show. God bless you. Thanks so much for listening, but real quick, before you go,
01:16:52 do us a small favor, take a moment and leave us a five-star review. If you enjoyed the show,
01:16:57 This is undoubtedly the best way that you can help us get this biblically faithful content to as many people as possible.
01:17:05 Thanks so much.