The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - Is ＂Children's Church＂ Biblical？

00:00:00 Hi, this is Pastor Joel Webin with Right Response Ministries, and you're listening to another

00:00:04 episode of Theology Applied. In this episode, I was privileged to have as a special guest,

00:00:09 Pastor Scott Brown. He's the president of Church and Family Life. It's a family-integrated

00:00:15 network of churches. My church, Covenant Bible Church, is actually a part of that. If you're

00:00:21 looking for a family-integrated church, you should check out Church and Family Life, their website,

00:00:25 do a church search. If you're anywhere in the North Austin area of Texas, you should come and

00:00:29 check out my church, Covenant Bible Church. We'd love to have you there. All that being said,

00:00:34 the interview was great. We had a great conversation about the importance of bringing

00:00:38 your children to church and that children's ministry is not church. And so we talked about

00:00:44 the whole family, multi-generational ministry, especially on the Lord's day. We talked about

00:00:49 family worship and what that should look like on a daily basis in our homes. And then we also

00:00:54 talked about sphere sovereignty, that the family is a government, the authority of fathers, the

00:00:59 authority of mothers, and right now, the tyranny encroaching overstep of jurisdiction from civil

00:01:07 authorities. And so we talked about vaccines a little bit. We talked about all these different

00:01:11 things and how it works together for the family, that family unit being a God-glorifying community

00:01:18 of saints. And so I hope you enjoy. That being said, real quick, if you're able to do so,

00:01:24 we need your support. If you'd like to make a donation, go to Right Response Ministries

00:01:29 dot com. You can give a donation of any amount. We are so grateful for your giving, for your

00:01:34 generosity. If you're not able to make a donation, you can still support this ministry by simply

00:01:40 subscribing to our YouTube channel, downloading our podcast on your favorite podcast platform,

00:01:45 and sharing our content with your family and friends. All that being said, let's go ahead

00:01:50 and get started. Hope you enjoy. Applying God's word to every aspect of life. This is Theology

00:01:57 Applied. All right, so welcome to another episode of Theology Applied. I'm your guest,

00:02:05 Pastor Joel Webin, and as I've already mentioned, I'm privileged to be joined by Pastor Scott Brown

00:02:11 with Church and Family Life. Pastor Scott Brown, would you go ahead and just introduce yourself

00:02:15 and tell us a little bit about your ministry? Yeah, I'm married to Debra. I have four children

00:02:21 who are married. I've got 24 grandchildren. I grew up in Southern California. I spent the first

00:02:27 half of my life there. Now I'm in North Carolina and I'm a pastor at Hope Baptist Church here in

00:02:33 Wake Forest, North Carolina. And so I wear two hats typically in a given day as a local church

00:02:42 shepherd and also the head of Church and Family Life. Church and Family Life is dedicated to

00:02:50 proclaiming the sufficiency of scripture for church and family life. We're focusing on these

00:02:57 two institutions, the church and the family, these powerful, remarkable institutions that God

00:03:02 has created, the church and the family, the two discipleship and evangelistic

00:03:08 institutions. So we focus on both because we think that they are complementary in the way

00:03:15 that they function. They need one another. Churches need holy families and families need

00:03:23 holy churches so so that's what we do we have a network of about 500 churches around the country

00:03:28 we do a lot of conferences uh we mentor people we write books we do we have a weekly podcast

00:03:35 on issues that are impinging on the church and a family and uh so i guess that's it yeah that's

00:03:44 that's what i do every day well that's great um so our church is a part of church and family life

00:03:50 And I think probably my first introduction was probably through Votie Bauckham and some of his teachings.

00:03:59 And from time to time, he would reference the network, which at the time used to have another name.

00:04:04 What was the name that it used to have?

00:04:06 Right. It was the National Center for Family Integrated Churches, NCFIC.

00:04:12 Nobody could say it. Nobody could even pronounce it.

00:04:14 So we thought we'd, you know, use a name that actually people could understand, actually describe what we do.

00:04:22 Yeah.

00:04:23 Amen.

00:04:24 Well, the family integrated model, that's something that for a lot of people is just, as you know, completely foreign.

00:04:31 And it was foreign for me as well.

00:04:33 And by God's grace, he changed my heart.

00:04:36 And, you know, the short answer that I always give people, you know, is just when they say, well, how come you don't have a children's ministry, you know, or how come you don't do this?

00:04:43 How come you don't do that?

00:04:44 And I always just say, well, we believe that children should come to church.

00:04:48 And I think part of what's difficult to persuade people with is that people don't really have a clear biblical definition of what constitutes the church.

00:05:00 So they would never see it that way.

00:05:02 They would never see, you know, if you put your children in a separate wing of the church facilities and, you know, they have a Bible lesson, you know, and they're doing some Christian things, Bible-centered things, you know, the parents to say that you didn't bring your children to church this Lord's Day.

00:05:23 That would be my conviction now, but that's because I better understand what the church is.

00:05:28 And so I guess my question is, could you provide for our listeners a little bit of the biblical support for why children should participate with their mothers and fathers on the Lord's Day in worship?

00:05:41 Sure. The only positive witness that we have in Scripture is for the church gathering generationally, all ages gathering together.

00:05:53 The pattern is explicit in the Old Testament. It's explicit in the New Testament.

00:05:58 It's really the only pattern that we have.

00:06:02 It's one thing to say, well, there's no age segregation in the Bible.

00:06:11 Well, that's not actually the primary argument that we have.

00:06:13 Our argument is that the only thing you see in the Bible is a generational pattern of worship and discipleship.

00:06:22 So the only reason that we bring the whole family together in worship is because that's the only thing you see in the Bible.

00:06:33 So how would you respond to the antagonist who would say, well, I do believe in multi-generational discipleship, but a five-year-old isn't going to understand 75% of what the pastor is saying in his sermon.

00:06:51 And so that's why, right?

00:06:53 Because I could just, I can hear the devil's advocate saying, that's why we have a children's

00:06:58 ministry on Sundays, because we believe in multi-generational discipleship, but we think

00:07:02 it should be geared for each of those generations.

00:07:06 Right.

00:07:06 So that's pragmatic thinking, not biblical thinking.

00:07:09 I think that's really the heart of the matter.

00:07:12 But the truth is, in the Bible, you do have infants gathering with their families to hear

00:07:18 the word of God.

00:07:19 i mean in the old testament hearing the reading of the word of god you know for a half a day

00:07:24 in the new testament you absolutely have children in the meetings of the church when the apostle

00:07:30 paul was writing to the ephesian church he he addresses wives and then he addresses husbands

00:07:38 and then he addresses children children obey your parents in the lord honor your father and mother

00:07:44 The Apostle Paul believed the children were there, so he was speaking to them.

00:07:49 He thought all of them would be there.

00:07:52 That's the most natural and biblical thing.

00:07:55 You know, I have been on dozens, maybe probably hundreds of debates and interviews over this.

00:08:02 I really only ask one question.

00:08:04 can you show me anything in scripture where there's a positive pattern for the segregation

00:08:11 of age groups or life stages in the bible and the and the problem is there is none you can read the

00:08:19 bible to your eyes bleed and there is not it just doesn't exist so um that's that's the question

00:08:26 can you give me a positive witness from scripture about this pragmatic pattern and and frankly

00:08:33 there just there just is none um so but you and when and people people have to come up with other

00:08:39 things well they say well the rabbis you know the rabbis did it and i always say well our pattern

00:08:45 isn't the rabbis i think jesus had a lot to say about the way the rabbis were conducting the

00:08:51 church so and they weren't weren't positive so i don't our pattern is not the rabbis our pattern

00:08:56 is not the culture our pattern is not our own pragmatism our pattern is the word of god alone

00:09:01 Amen. Yeah, one thing that was helpful for me was, you know, around the same time that I was coming into the conviction of family integrated worship, I was also coming into the conviction of a church having a single service.

00:09:16 And I don't know how you feel about that, Pastor Brown, but I, for me, I just, you know, I look at the New Testament word that's used for church, ecclesia, and that it means assembly or a gathering.

00:09:28 And so the idea of, well, really, I mean, you know, I don't want to be too technical, but in 1 Corinthians chapter 11, when Paul is chastising the Corinthian church, he's chastising them for the manner, the heart posture, the attitude in which they were participating in the Lord's Supper.

00:09:47 but but i think there's also a practical concern and so what we see clearly in the text the text

00:09:53 is paul's concern his pastoral concern for their hearts their their their attitude and posture

00:09:59 towards one another that some people are showing up early and despising those who come later and

00:10:04 the rich despising the poor and uh some not having anything to eat and so there's certainly that

00:10:09 element and that's the i would be willing to admit that that's the primary element but there's still

00:10:14 the practical implication, which is you have two sets, two portions of the church that are showing

00:10:21 up at two separate times. And it seems as though one of the things that the apostle is advocating

00:10:27 for, he's hitting the spiritual issue of division. But I can't comprehend solving the spiritual issue

00:10:35 of division without doing anything about the practical issue of division. That at the end of

00:10:41 the day, even if our hearts are aligned and even if there's no resentment or bitterness or any of

00:10:46 those things, division in our hearts, when you have half of the church showing up at 9 a.m. and

00:10:51 then the other half of the church showing up at 11 a.m., you still have, with the Lord's Supper,

00:10:55 it being divided. When Paul says earlier in 1 Corinthians 10, he says, just as there is one

00:11:01 bread, we who are many are one. How do you do one loaf of bread at two separate times with two

00:11:09 separate groups of people. And I think some people would probably hear that and say, you're being

00:11:14 too technical or too literal interpretation of the text. But to me, it seems as though

00:11:20 Christ's body is not meant to be divided. And it seems as though the Lord's Supper is this sign

00:11:29 that is given to the church, this covenant renewal ceremony that in baptism, we enter into

00:11:37 covenant unity with Christ and his people. So you could say in baptism, the one joins the many,

00:11:43 but in the Lord's Supper, the many become one. And the Lord's Supper is the renewing,

00:11:48 the renewal ceremonial covenant ceremony that we participate in. And I believe it should be

00:11:56 weekly, that we're weekly participating in. And the symbolism, the picture is that the many who

00:12:02 have been scattered all week long are being made one in this sacrament or ordinance of the Lord's

00:12:08 Supper. And I don't know how to do that with two separate groups of people at 9 a.m. and 11 a.m.

00:12:15 What do you think about the single service model of the church?

00:12:20 Oh, I think that's absolutely the local pattern. You don't have one bread for the senior citizens, 0.76

00:12:26 One bread for the singles, one bread for the 13-year-olds, and one bread for the marrieds.

00:12:33 The church is not a fragmented organism.

00:12:38 The church is a family.

00:12:39 And because the church is a family, it should look like a family.

00:12:44 And as it turns out, when you have a family, you have older people, and you have younger, you have babies, and you have the whole group.

00:12:51 So, yeah, I think the fragmentation of the church, the fracturing of the church is really an important matter.

00:13:00 And, you know, what we've seen is that, you know, some children, when they're fragmented away from the worship of God, they grow up, they don't really even think the church is their church.

00:13:10 So they go somewhere else.

00:13:12 Right.

00:13:13 No, I completely agree.

00:13:15 I've heard horror stories and witnessed some of them in visiting churches where not only is it pre-K and kindergarten or even elementary, primary school, but all the way through high school.

00:13:30 So all the way through 18 years old, it's one thing, and there's something that can be said about this as well, but it's one thing if it's a Wednesday night youth group.

00:13:39 I think there is a distinction to be made when we talk about certain age-based ministries as a substitute for the Lord's Day gathering.

00:13:48 I think that that's a really, really big deal.

00:13:51 But I've been to churches, Reformed, at least in their soteriology churches, Reformed-ish churches, lowercase r, they're not confessional per se.

00:14:00 But I've been to these churches where during Sunday morning, the adults, the parents, and mothers and fathers are in one room, and all the way through 18 years old, they're all in different rooms, you know, your elementary, your middle school, your high school, and they would even, they would boast as though this was a positive thing, but they would say, yeah, we have a middle school pastor and a high school pastor, and they're not just doing Christian activities.

00:14:26 they have a sermon. Right now, the high school pastor is preaching through the book of Matthew.

00:14:32 And the senior pastor with the mom and dad is preaching through the book of John. And essentially,

00:14:38 in some of these megachurches, it's a large campus, and so it's not just a separate room,

00:14:42 but a separate building. And I think your children go to another church. The families,

00:14:49 it's not even attending the same church. You have separate pastors, you have separate sermons,

00:14:53 separate books of the Bible, separate buildings, and when you do that all the way through 18 years

00:14:59 old, that little Sally and little Johnny have never been to church with their parents.

00:15:06 That's just crazy to me, and it's become normative.

00:15:10 Yeah, this is a house of inventions. This is inventing a sociology that's contrary to the

00:15:19 Bible, God has really established a particular kind of sociology. And when you go and invent 0.79

00:15:26 new sociologies, you've really departed from scripture. In fact, I mean, even the whole

00:15:34 imposition of critical race theory and identity politics is a reinvention of the sociology of

00:15:41 the church. It completely revamps the way that everybody relates with one other. And it's

00:15:45 actually satanic uh because the church was the church was never meant to function according to

00:15:51 an identity politics uh platform the church is a family and there and there are ways that we treat

00:16:00 one another like the older teach the younger right that's what they do um and you have brother you

00:16:07 are brothers and sisters together and there's just there's just no evidence at all that the church is

00:16:14 a fragmented sociology it's a unified sociology and i and i really think it breaks up the unity

00:16:19 of the body of christ i completely agree both critical race theory and intersectionality as

00:16:26 well as many other things under the the large woke banner that we have today um they are they

00:16:32 are tools um but i like what james lindsey what he says not a brother in christ he's an atheist

00:16:38 but a friend. And the Lord in his mercy has used him to be a help to the church during this

00:16:45 difficult time. But James Lindsay says, yeah, critical race theory, intersectionality,

00:16:49 they're tools in the same way that a jackhammer is a tool. There are certain tools that the only

00:16:54 thing they do is deconstruct. They don't build anything. And so the sad reality is that these

00:17:02 things, it's not that they're not working. They are working. They're doing precisely what they

00:17:07 were forged in the fire of hell to accomplish which is division and deconstruction and so on 0.92

00:17:13 that note do you find do you find an irony in the sense that that we're all about racial

00:17:18 reconciliation and racial justice in our culture today and so much of the church has bought into

00:17:24 this taking its cues from the culture instead of the word of god and then you know and and so we

00:17:30 wouldn't even dream of something like you know racial segregation and then and then at the same

00:17:35 time with with vaccines and then and then with precisely what we're talking about with with ages

00:17:41 demographics um we're segregated we're completely segregated i mean even the church like for months

00:17:47 now even before the vaccines came out there you know churches decided we're going to do two

00:17:51 services we're going to have a mask only service without singing which i don't know how how you

00:17:56 defend that in scripture without you know that commands us to address you know not only god but

00:18:01 one another with psalms and hymns and so we're going to have one service where we administer

00:18:06 some of the means of grace but not all the means of grace we're deliberately choosing not to obey

00:18:11 all the all the things that god tells us to do when we gather together and we're going to we're

00:18:16 going to enforce we're going to require masks and then we're going to have another service where

00:18:20 masks are optional and where there is singing and and i look at that and i'm just between mass

00:18:25 between vaccines and then and then what we're talking about for decades the church with age

00:18:29 has been segregated and we talk about how you know we're all about unity and um and and but

00:18:35 we're number one we're going about it the wrong way because we've we've we've despised the word

00:18:41 of god uh but then number two we're so narrow-minded we keep thinking about unity in terms of of racial

00:18:47 reconciliation and and we're completely content to divide in all these other ways and and so it's

00:18:53 just it's just funny that like you know people who they're like how how in the world could there

00:18:57 have been separate water fountains you know for during jim crow era you know for white people and 0.68

00:19:03 black people and then and then in the next breath you see them you know essentially doing the very 0.58

00:19:08 same thing between the vaxxed and the unvaxxed have you seen that have you felt the irony in 0.99

00:19:13 some of these things oh yeah it's bizarre it's a return to the things that we turned away from

00:19:19 a long time ago you know we we turned away from that kind of segregation decades ago and now

00:19:26 people somehow for some crazy reason want to return to it but here's the here's the root of

00:19:32 the issue this is the root of the issue for why you have uh churches that are that segregate

00:19:38 the generations it's really one issue and and it's it's the reason we have people embracing

00:19:45 critical race theory uh the church doesn't believe that scripture is sufficient the church

00:19:52 believes that culture is sufficient and if you look at the great movements at least just in my

00:19:58 lifetime the seeker sensitive movement the emergent church movement and and and now you

00:20:04 have this woke movement it's it's just the same thing it's nothing different i've seen this i've

00:20:09 seen this already before and it's it's that the church isn't satisfied with the word of god alone

00:20:20 the church wants something cooler than god you're right and so that's why the church is a house of

00:20:26 inventions in a lot of ways we become like the roman catholic church we're inventing all these

00:20:31 offices we're inventing all these pilgrimages and all kinds of ways of righteousness that the bible

00:20:37 doesn't but they're they're thrilling to people you know give them candles give them some incense

00:20:42 you know give them something to thrill them give them some images you know in the wall give them

00:20:47 some statues that'll thrill them that'll that'll get them closer to god well those this is a house

00:20:52 of inventions and the the reason the church became segregated in the generations is because

00:21:00 it happened in in a season where the church really just wanted to be creative

00:21:07 and create creativity is a disaster in the church

00:21:11 mm-hmm no you're right i always want to remind christians that you know there's

00:21:18 there's a difference between the inerrancy of scripture and the sufficiency and i think there

00:21:23 are still many you know card-carrying evangelicals who will you know tip their hat to the inerrancy

00:21:28 of scripture that scripture is authoritative um that you know we believe that scripture is

00:21:33 um you know that it is you know sola scriptura the idea that you know scripture alone and what

00:21:38 we mean by that is we don't mean scripture is the only authority um because scripture itself

00:21:43 testifies to other authorities that god has established and instituted but what we do mean

00:21:47 is that scripture is the highest authority and it's the only infallible authority so it's the

00:21:52 only authority that that never errs and it is the highest authority and many christians would would

00:21:57 respond to that by saying yes and amen um the problem is when we get to the sufficiency of

00:22:03 scripture and the reality is it's you know christians they think that they're being faithful

00:22:07 because they would say, well, I would never contradict the authority of Scripture.

00:22:12 But you can effectively, in effect, you can completely bypass the authority of Scripture

00:22:19 by simply saying that the Scripture doesn't apply to this or to that.

00:22:23 So you're recognizing, tipping your hat in word, you're paying credence to the authority of Scripture.

00:22:31 But in action, if you don't hold to the sufficiency of Scripture for all of life,

00:22:37 then then it doesn't matter if it's authoritative it would be the equivalent you know a good analogy

00:22:43 or illustration would it be the equivalent of you know having a um a sword on the mantle of

00:22:48 your fireplace at home and it's it's encased in some kind of glass you know glass case and it's

00:22:54 you know it's a double-edged sword you know and it's sharp and it's you know and and you brag

00:23:00 about it with your children your grandchildren you know as you gather around the fireplace maybe

00:23:04 it's an old war relic that you used you know decades in the past and this is the sword that

00:23:08 i that i've used in this context in that context and look look at its beauty look at the craftsmanship

00:23:13 look at its effectiveness all these kinds of things um but the that that's that's the inerrancy

00:23:20 of scripture but the sufficiency is when you actually you know open the glass case and and

00:23:26 take the sword down and use it and i think that's the problem is that there's so many things especially

00:23:31 in the last 18 months that have come our way. 1.00

00:23:34 And Christians, while still acknowledging 0.98

00:23:36 that the scripture is authoritative, 0.98

00:23:39 they have no earthly idea how to apply the scripture to,

00:23:45 and they just don't think it does.

00:23:46 I think they just,

00:23:47 they don't think the scripture applies to vaccines.

00:23:50 They don't think it applies to pandemics.

00:23:52 They don't think it applies to the civil government

00:23:55 or the only application that they can see

00:23:56 is we always submit, no matter what has ever handed down.

00:24:01 And they don't think it applies on the Lord's Day.

00:24:04 And that's been something that we've seen for decades.

00:24:06 You're right.

00:24:06 It's pragmatism.

00:24:07 We come to the church thinking it's a blank canvas for our own creative license and freedom.

00:24:13 And we don't think that the Word of God actually tells us how to worship, that it conducts our affairs and especially our Lord's Day gathering.

00:24:22 And so it's certainly a problem.

00:24:24 And for me, understanding what constitutes church was a really, I think the same mindset, the same wrong principles that allowed us to segregate the church based off of age for the decades was the same mindset that allowed many Christians and sadly many pastors to have completely, to have consciences that were completely at ease when it came to live streaming their church services for months on end.

00:24:52 with no sense of urgency that we've got to get back to gathering

00:24:55 because we can't answer the question, what is church?

00:25:01 And I would say, and maybe you can add to this, Pastor Scott,

00:25:04 but I would say that church is the gathering of the saints on the Lord's Day.

00:25:09 The Lord's Day is the Christian Sabbath.

00:25:11 And so Christ, he did not abrogate the Sabbath, but he did not remove it,

00:25:16 but he renewed the Sabbath from the last day of the week to the first day of the week

00:25:20 by virtue of his resurrection and his appearance to the apostles.

00:25:24 And so it's the gathering of the saints, young and old, on the Lord's Day.

00:25:28 It's the ecclesia, one assembly, one gathering of all the saints together

00:25:33 on the Lord's Day, the first day of the week,

00:25:36 for the administering of the ordinary means of grace,

00:25:38 which is to publicly preach the word, publicly pray the word,

00:25:42 publicly sing the word, and also publicly see the word, S-E-E,

00:25:48 in the only ordinances that have been given to us by Christ

00:25:52 that are by sight, which would be baptism and the Lord's Supper.

00:25:57 And we don't live by sight, but we live by faith.

00:26:00 And faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God,

00:26:03 which is why we don't have images.

00:26:05 That's why we adhere to the second commandment.

00:26:07 And the Protestant church has rejected Rome 0.64

00:26:10 that fills its cathedrals with all of these things by sight.

00:26:15 However, the Lord has given us these two things that are visible, that tell us something about Christ and his people and the covenant that he's made with us.

00:26:26 And so I would say that's what it is, the Lord's Day gathering of all the saints together, one gathering, one ecclesia for publicly preaching the word, publicly praying the word, publicly singing the word, and publicly seeing the word in baptism and the Lord's Supper.

00:26:40 And wherever that is not happening, if that's not occurring, I would contend that that's simply not church, that church has been defined for us.

00:26:51 And so if I'm sending my children to another room and that's not happening, it's not the gathering of the saints on the Lord's day for the preaching, the praying, the singing and the seeing of the word of God, all word centric.

00:27:04 then I am sending my children to some other place than church. Would you agree with that definition?

00:27:11 Would you add anything to that? No, I think that's exactly it. And the problem that we have

00:27:16 been facing in evangelicalism is it's exactly as you said. People have been content to accept

00:27:25 inerrancy as an intellectual proposition, but they don't want God to tell them what to do,

00:27:31 and particularly what to do on the Lord's day.

00:27:35 You can't tell me what to do.

00:27:37 But the truth is God wants to control your life.

00:27:40 He wants to control your time.

00:27:41 That's why he sets aside one day in seven.

00:27:44 He wants to control your time.

00:27:46 And he's controlling your time by saying,

00:27:48 work six days and then come and worship me one day.

00:27:51 And I think it's really a matter of submission and authority

00:27:55 and the desire that we have to hold an intellectual proposition

00:28:01 like inerrancy and and and call ourselves christians but yet not really being willing

00:28:08 to say lord what would you have me do i want to do the things that you said we should do

00:28:13 in the church and in the family and at work and in every part of life right right it's the regular

00:28:20 principle of worship but really it's the regular principle for for all of life that god um there

00:28:28 there are choices that are made available to us. You know, there's nothing in the word of God that

00:28:32 says, you know, thou, thou must take this job over that job. But the reality is even with that

00:28:37 example that I just gave, uh, well, let's look at these two companies and let's look at the ethics

00:28:42 behind them and the principles. And let's also look at what they pay and the type of work that

00:28:46 I would be doing and what's more glorifying to God. What did they pay? What allows for me to

00:28:50 better provide for my family? Uh, what's the work schedule that one makes me work on Sunday,

00:28:55 right and one doesn't require me and so you know for me i i you know i used to be charismatic i

00:29:01 don't know if you're familiar with jack deer uh but i i was a part of his church uh once upon a

00:29:06 time when i was in college and helped with the prophetic teams and those kind of things and

00:29:10 um and then slowly but surely the lord you know he just he brought me into calvinism and

00:29:15 complementarianism and he brought me into congregationalism and and uh cessationism

00:29:21 and all these notorious, infamous C words is what I call them, all the bad C words.

00:29:27 And the big C word is confessionalism.

00:29:29 And so it took me a long time, but eventually I became Reformed Baptist and confessional.

00:29:34 But one of the things that helped me to kind of embrace cessationism is I just realized that what you're saying,

00:29:43 the sufficiency of god's word that what i used to see as prophecy i i now realize that there's

00:29:50 not one prophetic word that i ever got for someone um that could not have been arrived at

00:29:57 equally or better by simply the word plus providence the word plus providence and i

00:30:05 really that that is how god guides his people he does it through special revelation first and

00:30:10 foremost, but then also in natural revelation that these two things are too powerful. So you

00:30:17 think that like, well, but the Bible doesn't, yeah, but God is directing his people. He is a

00:30:23 shepherd. He is guiding his sheep very meticulously, with much more control, like you said, than I

00:30:30 think we're willing to recognize or able to recognize. And so when I look at the word of God

00:30:35 and all of its commands, like for me, I left California. And when people say, why did you

00:30:40 leave california i would say the word of god um because the word of god tells me that that uh

00:30:46 titus 2 uh talks about uh what what women should be older women training younger women and teaching 0.65

00:30:51 them to to submit to their husbands to love their children um but then also talks about uh working

00:30:57 at home and so i i i i want my wife to be able to be at home and then looking at the word of god

00:31:03 fathers do not provoke your children to wrath but rather you know train them up and then and so i

00:31:07 is i'm responsible for my children's education and and it must be a distinctly christian education

00:31:13 that i give them whether it be homeschooling or classical christian school outside the home but

00:31:17 either way my wife needs to be at home to teach the children um or i i have to be able to afford

00:31:24 the tuition for a private school um and then you know and then wanting to a good man leaves an

00:31:30 inheritance for his not only his children but his children's children and although it can be nothing

00:31:34 less than a spiritual inheritance, I believe that it does include more, that it includes building

00:31:40 wealth and leaving a material inheritance for your children. Money is not evil. It's the love

00:31:46 of money that is evil. And money can be used to do wonderful things for the glory of God. And so

00:31:50 as I was looking at all this, and then the lifelong command, you know, not children in the

00:31:55 home obey their parents, but even grown children are called to honor thy father and thy mother.

00:32:00 And as my parents begin to age and my wife's parents begin to age, you know, they weren't going to be able to retire in San Diego, California.

00:32:09 And so we wanted to be closer to them so that we could care for them.

00:32:12 Like 1 Timothy chapter 5, that children should give some return to their parents for this is pleasing in the sight of God.

00:32:18 And so as I just constructed, you know, looking at the word of God and then looking at its real application in terms of this is how much money it's going to cost to obey Jesus.

00:32:28 and you might say well there are people who are poor in china and north korea that obey jesus

00:32:33 yeah that that's absolutely true the difference is they're stuck i i had a choice i didn't have

00:32:39 to live in california i didn't have to live by the beach i had a choice and so there's the

00:32:43 providence piece so between the word of god special revelation and the providence piece

00:32:47 and then looking at my budget and looking at how much i was going to be able to make and what i'd

00:32:51 be able to do and then that doesn't even bring into question what my taxes were going to in

00:32:55 california and what i was supporting and so all these things uh it became as though it was almost

00:33:02 as clear so there were actually a verse in the bible that said joel webben thou shalt move to

00:33:07 texas and leave california you know and and so my point is the word of god is sufficient it just it

00:33:13 takes work it you know what i mean it takes study do you have any comment on that and it yeah and

00:33:19 And it takes a heart that says, Lord, I want to do what you want me to do.

00:33:26 I mean, I've seen this happen in so many people's lives, just like the way you've just described it.

00:33:31 Lord, I want to raise my children the way that you said.

00:33:37 I mean, in fact, an entire shift in thousands of people's thinking was when they realized the Bible said, be fruitful and multiply.

00:33:47 and there there were people that said wow lord if that's if you say that's good i want to do that

00:33:57 you know i want to be a living picture of what's in the word of god i don't want to go and invent

00:34:03 my own life you know it's the heart that says lord i came to you because i needed you to lead me

00:34:07 and that's that's really the whole matter of of the sufficiency of scripture

00:34:13 that you you think scripture is all you need and so as you navigate your way through life you're

00:34:21 always looking to the word of god and you you know you describe the worship of god in the church you

00:34:26 know there's been a great return to those simple means of grace and it's it's so important you know

00:34:32 that we do that i mean john knox uh said you know all all word all inventions of man in the worship

00:34:41 of God, our idolatry.

00:34:44 That's what it is.

00:34:45 I wrote a little book called Counterfeit Worship a few years ago about Knox, particularly.

00:34:51 But it's just critical that we understand that.

00:34:54 Do we want to be creative or do we humble ourselves before the Lord and do what he told

00:35:03 us to do in all of its simplicity?

00:35:06 Or are we going to create a house of inventions in our homes, in our churches, and in everything else that we do?

00:35:14 Right. Amen.

00:35:16 John Knox, the great Scottish reformer, is the one who also said that resistance to tyranny is submission to God.

00:35:24 There you go.

00:35:26 We need pastors and Christians to be studying guys like John Knox.

00:35:32 I think we just weren't prepared for the last 18 months.

00:35:37 The church was just not ready for this.

00:35:40 All of us, at least myself, I'll speak for myself,

00:35:43 quickly trying to learn theologically in 15 minutes

00:35:50 what I should have studied and learned over the past 15 years.

00:35:55 And statements like, I'm sure you heard someone that I appreciate

00:36:00 a lot of his ministry, but, you know, he recently said, you know, well, if as long as it's not,

00:36:04 you know, the government's not telling us to do something that God, you know, forbids or

00:36:09 refusing to allow us to do something that God commands, you know, causing us to sin.

00:36:14 So, you know, then it's okay. And the example that was used is, you know, if the government

00:36:19 tells us to put pinwheels on the side of our heads, you know, wear a pinwheel on the side

00:36:23 of our head, then I'm going to wear the pinwheel. And I was just thinking, that's the product

00:36:27 of someone who's lived in a nation

00:36:29 that's had a lot of freedom.

00:36:31 You would never have been saying that.

00:36:34 Yeah, that person is also not thinking clearly at all.

00:36:38 Probably because of the pinwheel

00:36:40 on the side of his head. 0.95

00:36:41 It's probably cutting off his brain.

00:36:43 Well, for instance, let's just say

00:36:45 that you, as a pastor of your church,

00:36:48 are telling everybody in the church

00:36:50 to wear pinwheels to work.

00:36:52 Right.

00:36:53 Or you start telling the wives 0.99

00:36:56 how to dress well i'm pretty confident that fellow would reject that it's not sinful to 0.55

00:37:05 wear a pinwheel and it's probably not sinful to dress the way you say that they should dress but

00:37:11 the problem is uh if you if you do that you've stepped out of your jurisdiction and so it a

00:37:20 jurisdiction may command you to do something that's not sinful but it's not their jurisdiction

00:37:27 to command you that's the deal and and and everybody believes that every pastor believes

00:37:32 that even the ones that say well i'll obey you know just as long as i don't have to disobey the

00:37:39 lord they they're not thinking clearly no you're absolutely right i i want to address that a little

00:37:44 bit more because you've had some really great stuff on your podcast about sphere sovereignty

00:37:49 and jurisdictions, and, you know, God instituted the home, the church, and the state, and I think

00:37:56 part of the problem is that we are, as a nation, and the church, sadly, is proving to not be much

00:38:03 of an exception to this, but I think the average American is, we're statist, and we see the, you

00:38:11 know, the civil magistrate, first, we don't understand the doctrine of the lesser civil

00:38:15 magistrate and we could talk about that but we see the civil magistrate as um as just this this

00:38:20 this the highest power in in all of human society and all the land and you know and we point to

00:38:28 something like romans 13 and we miss exegete it and we say you know well it says submit um but i

00:38:33 can point to hebrews chapter 13 that says you know um obey your leaders talking about talking about

00:38:40 elders, spiritual leaders in the church, which is another human institution that's divinely

00:38:45 instituted by God, no less legitimate than the state. And I have verses that I can point to

00:38:52 that specifically say, obey your leaders in the Lord, for they are keeping watch over your souls

00:38:59 as men who must give an account. So let them do this with joy and not a groaning, for that would

00:39:05 be of no benefit to you. And so I can point to something like that and say, hey, well, the Bible

00:39:09 says that you're called to submit to me. And so if I tell you what to wear to work, as long as

00:39:15 I'm not telling you to sin, I'm just telling you that you should wear a blue suit instead of a

00:39:20 black suit. I'm not telling you to be immodest or anything like that. So we can make that argument

00:39:25 all day long and no one would tolerate it. What would they do? I'd be on the news. I'd be picked

00:39:31 up by you know yeah so so what is the difference go ahead sorry i i just i just wrote a short book

00:39:39 on this whole subject that is the illustration is forced vaccinations it's called forced

00:39:45 vaccinations uh thinking biblically it's a short book but i what i try to do is explain the

00:39:53 jurisdictional argument uh it's exactly what you're saying uh there are jurisdictions have

00:40:00 particular authority but the government has no authority to tell you what to inject into your

00:40:06 body god has actually given that authority to you under his headship that your body belongs to the

00:40:13 lord it doesn't really belong to the government belongs to the lord you a christian can't do

00:40:18 anything that harms his body or the or that he thinks harms his body and god has given that

00:40:25 jurisdiction to you and if your parents he's given that jurisdiction to parents for their

00:40:30 children the government can't tell your the government doesn't own your children these are

00:40:35 just the simple jurisdictional structures that that we find in the bible and god has created

00:40:41 society under this matter of various jurisdictions and then you have the church and the family and

00:40:47 the state and you have the individual and you have the employer as well yeah you're absolutely right

00:40:53 and i think the problem is and and i think you would agree with this the problem is that people

00:40:57 see the church that they don't see these as sovereign spheres that are side by side and

00:41:02 there are cases where there's overlap right and you know but for the most part these are autonomous

00:41:07 sovereign spheres of authority that that exist they coexist side by side but that's not how the

00:41:15 church sees it i think subconsciously a lot of people couldn't even verbalize or articulate this

00:41:20 but subconsciously they think that the state is here and the church is underneath it rather than

00:41:26 seeing that both the state, the church, and the home are beside one another at times,

00:41:32 like a Venn diagram at times overlapping, but each distinct and autonomous and on equal

00:41:39 planes, I would argue.

00:41:41 And the only thing that they're under is Christ.

00:41:45 And I've said this a few times, but it's been said, Christ, not Caesar, is head of

00:41:50 the church.

00:41:51 And I would say yes and amen, and I would go further and say, Christ, not Caesar, is

00:41:55 head of the state.

00:41:56 That Caesar works for God.

00:41:59 Romans 13, he's God's deacon.

00:42:01 And so Christ is over all and in all.

00:42:05 Ephesians 1, verse 22, God has set him not just as head of the church,

00:42:10 but the head of all things to the benefit of the church.

00:42:14 But Christians don't see that.

00:42:16 They see it as Christ, and they wouldn't say this, 0.96

00:42:19 but I think implicitly this is what our actions and our compliance in many areas has revealed,

00:42:24 is we see it as there's christ there's caesar the state and then there's you know the church or

00:42:32 maybe the family and that you know but the church is way down here and the family is way down here

00:42:37 and we don't realize that these are not only are they sovereign autonomous spheres but they are

00:42:43 autonomous governments there's spheres of government there's the familial government that

00:42:48 has a head an authority the husband is the head of his wife you know and um and then in a church

00:42:54 There's an ecclesiastical government.

00:42:56 We have church officers of elders and deacons who are ordained as, they have authority in

00:43:03 the church.

00:43:03 But in each of these arenas, the authority is limited.

00:43:07 It's always a, it's never an inherent authority, it's a vested authority.

00:43:13 And the moment that authority, the jurisdiction is breached, the authority is gone.

00:43:18 It's not there.

00:43:19 And would you agree with that?

00:43:20 Yeah. And I would expand on that a little bit by saying, by talking about it like this. You have the government has a little bit of authority over lots of people. The church has more authority than the government over a smaller number of people.

00:43:40 the family has lots of authority nearly unlimited authority over a very very small number of people

00:43:49 so that's really in this in this authority structure you you both have you you both have

00:43:56 the definition of the authority and you also have the scope of the authority and that's that's just

00:44:02 simply thinking christianly that's all that is and um so that's why the government doesn't have

00:44:09 exclusive authority jesus christ has exclusive authority over all the other authorities so you

00:44:15 have this great authority over all the jurisdictions and then you have uh the the definition and the

00:44:23 scope on each jurisdiction that's the way that god designed it and yeah you know this the state

00:44:30 is given the sword the family is given the rod the church is given the word of god i mean those

00:44:35 are the those are the those are the means of of instruction that's right and even that you could

00:44:41 argue i heard someone say just the other day that the individual is given the conscience

00:44:45 um that you know that even the conscience it governs and regulates and disciplines the

00:44:53 individual it restrains him from certain things um and so at every level whether it be self-leadership

00:45:00 or a husband's leadership of his wife and children

00:45:02 or like you're saying, a civil magistrate

00:45:05 and his leadership in the civil realm

00:45:07 or an elder in a church.

00:45:10 At every level, there is a degree of authority

00:45:13 and then there's also a tool, an instrument

00:45:16 that God has given to them

00:45:17 in order to wield that authority.

00:45:21 And for the church, it's a sword.

00:45:23 It's just a spiritual sword.

00:45:24 It's that double-edged, it's the word of God.

00:45:27 For Caesar, it is the sword.

00:45:29 and a physical sword. 0.90

00:45:31 And with the father and the mother in the home, 0.82

00:45:34 it's the rod with the children,

00:45:36 which is such a beautiful...

00:45:38 The reason why I love that is because it's so simple.

00:45:41 There's so many times where I just feel like,

00:45:44 you know, you doubt the promises of God,

00:45:46 bringing it back to parenting in the home.

00:45:48 You doubt the promises of God.

00:45:49 You're like, my two-year-old,

00:45:51 my two-year-old is a rebel.

00:45:55 You know, and there's times where it's just,

00:45:58 you know, you spank them

00:45:59 And you don't want to break their will, but you do want to harness their will and shape their will. 0.82

00:46:05 And you spank them, and then you're praying for them, praying over them.

00:46:10 You're disciplining, you're exhorting, you're encouraging, you're loving, you're nourishing, you're teaching.

00:46:15 We're doing family worship every single night in our home.

00:46:18 You know, well, that's not true.

00:46:20 We are striving for every single night.

00:46:22 I always encourage people, make your goal daily.

00:46:25 That way you at least hit four.

00:46:26 If you don't have a daily goal, then it's going to happen once a week.

00:46:31 That's right.

00:46:31 By us making a nightly goal, a daily goal, we usually hit four to five times on average.

00:46:37 We always try to make sure that one of those times, because we do it in the evening, is the Lord's Day.

00:46:43 Because right now we're a new church plant.

00:46:44 We don't have an evening service.

00:46:47 Eventually, I want to have an evening service, not for a second group of people to attend,

00:46:51 but for the same group of people to attend church twice, because it's not just the Lord's hour, but the Lord's Day.

00:46:56 And so anyways, all that being said, but believing the promises of God that rebelling is bound up in the heart of a child and the rod will remove it far from them.

00:47:05 That is such a relieving, delivering, hope-filled promise that if I just obey God's word in this arena, that he's made this promise and he's faithful.

00:47:23 Real quick, I'd love to pick your brain on this.

00:47:25 how should we do family worship? How did you do family worship with your children? And now with

00:47:30 your grandchildren, senior children do that. How do you do family worship in your home?

00:47:35 Very simply, we would get up in the morning and we would read the Bible. We read four chapters.

00:47:44 We read through the Bible nearly every year, maybe 16, 17 years of raising our children.

00:47:53 And I would ask pretty much one question.

00:47:57 What wonderful thing did you see in the word of God?

00:48:02 And then we would pray and sometimes we would sing.

00:48:06 My view is make it simple.

00:48:09 You know, you know, dad doesn't have to create a sermon for everything.

00:48:13 Just read the Bible.

00:48:14 The word of God is so powerful.

00:48:16 You want your children.

00:48:17 Don't let your children leave home without the whole counsel of God.

00:48:20 They need to see the whole sweep of redemptive history.

00:48:23 so they can see the greatness and the kindness and the mercy of God.

00:48:28 So that's what I think.

00:48:30 The Puritans took the morning and evening pattern. 1.00

00:48:34 I think that's a really good pattern.

00:48:36 But it's like you said, if you don't commit to do it, you're never going to do it.

00:48:42 There are 400 things that wage war against your gathering together to read the Word of God.

00:48:48 So you just have to say, we're going to do this.

00:48:50 We're going to do this at this time, regardless.

00:48:53 of what else is happening, whatever phones are ringing, whatever.

00:48:57 And so, yeah, I, but I think simplicity is really the way to think about it.

00:49:03 Yeah, that's great. Yeah. I don't, I just wanted them to see the beauty of Jesus.

00:49:09 That's what I wanted.

00:49:10 Amen. I was going to say as much of a preacher as I am, I, I, I, I don't,

00:49:15 I don't take the time to write a sermon for our every, you know,

00:49:18 every evening for worship, but we were very similar. We,

00:49:22 What I'll do is I'll read the text.

00:49:25 Every night I'll read the same chapter.

00:49:27 Right now we're preaching through the Psalms on the Lord's Day with our church.

00:49:31 And so I'll take that Psalm that we're coming towards on the Lord's Day and just read the same Psalm each evening.

00:49:38 And then we have the Follow Me Bible.

00:49:41 Joel Beakey is one of the lead editors on it.

00:49:43 And so it doesn't have any images of Christ, which I appreciate.

00:49:47 And so we'll do the Follow Me Bible, a story from that.

00:49:52 And then we use Keech's Catechism.

00:49:55 It's a Reformed Baptist catechism.

00:49:57 And so we're doing that.

00:49:58 And then some memory verses.

00:49:59 And then all the children, we take turns praying.

00:50:04 And one thing I also want to add, so you're a Reformed Baptist, right?

00:50:08 Are you 1689?

00:50:10 Yeah.

00:50:11 Yep.

00:50:11 So with being Reformed Baptist, I'm about as covenantal as you can get without baptizing babies.

00:50:20 So I'm about as far as you could go, you know, in the covenantal vein.

00:50:25 And when it comes to, you know, my children who are young right now, so I have a three-year-old, a two-year-old, and a 10-month-old.

00:50:33 And with my children, you know, I always, you know, I just preached a sermon on this from Psalm 71 last Sunday.

00:50:40 But I always am trying to train my children as Christians, not pagans.

00:50:49 Absolutely.

00:50:50 And, you know, and so like, so, you know, even like a question, like teaching them the Lord's prayer does, you know, should a two-year-old pray our father, right?

00:51:02 Even if it, you know, it's like, well, I'm not sure if they're regenerate yet.

00:51:05 You would say yes, right?

00:51:06 Absolutely.

00:51:07 I would say yes, too.

00:51:08 I would say yes, too.

00:51:09 And, you know, but coming from my Baptist background, there was a time when I would have said no.

00:51:13 There was a time when I would have said, yeah, but they're not, you know, they're not regenerate.

00:51:17 And those kind of what could you help me with how would you make that argument for parents?

00:51:23 You know, because the way that I would verbalize it is like parents should raise their children not just to be Christians, but but as Christians, how would pastorally what would you say to parents about that?

00:51:34 Well, parents are under divine commands to teach their children when they sit in the house, when they walk by the way, when they lie down, and when they rise up.

00:51:43 Parents are obligated before God to bring them up in the training and the admonition of what?

00:51:49 The Lord.

00:51:51 So, yes, children should memorize scripture.

00:51:54 They should sing.

00:51:55 When a child comes into the church, you should teach them to sing.

00:51:59 In fact, I wrote a book about how to bring your family to church called The Family at Church.

00:52:04 And I've got chapters in her on singing, helping your children sing.

00:52:08 But they're going to sing Christian words.

00:52:12 And when they're converted, those words will be so powerful for them.

00:52:19 Those words will come alive like never before.

00:52:22 They sang them when they were unbelievers in their youth.

00:52:26 And then they get converted.

00:52:27 And then they just are absolutely thrilled because God's changed their heart.

00:52:33 So it's, you know, I mean, think of Charles Spurgeon.

00:52:37 His parents filled him up with the knowledge of God.

00:52:40 That formed a tremendous foundation for his whole life.

00:52:44 You know, his parents made him read the Puritans and all kinds of stuff like that.

00:52:48 Right. 0.99

00:52:49 Well, that was a good thing.

00:52:52 And they were filling up the well of his soul.

00:52:56 So, yes, absolutely.

00:52:58 And children can pray.

00:53:01 children should pray in their families and i i completely agree i was yeah go ahead yeah no i

00:53:09 i completely agree and i think um you know i some of the psalms that you know where where the

00:53:14 psalmist says you know from from my youth or even more than that it's like um sure from my mother's

00:53:20 womb you know like like from infancy and i think you know the famous quote by polycarp that you

00:53:26 know the disciple of the apostle john where right before he was martyred you know 80 and six years

00:53:32 have i served thee he has never done me any harm you know how how now could i then blaspheme my

00:53:39 my my savior and my king my savior and uh and most you know most historians and biblical

00:53:46 commentators and theologians would all argue that um that 86 years was the length of his

00:53:52 entire life that um so essentially you know polycarp is saying i've served christ from

00:53:58 my birth and uh and i think that's the testimony is it is it that's the testimony that we want for

00:54:05 our children is i i i cannot remember a single day that uh that i did not profess jesus as lord

00:54:12 and i tell parents all the time they're like well yeah but god's sovereign over salvation you know

00:54:17 And I'm like, yeah, God's sovereign over salvation, but why do we do evangelism?

00:54:22 The same God who's sovereign over the ends of people's salvation is sovereign over the means.

00:54:29 And the means that God has granted to save people ordinarily is through the church and the family.

00:54:36 And so that if someone is submerged in a gospel-preaching church and also a gospel-preaching family,

00:54:43 then I think we should expect that God is going to save them.

00:54:49 Not because we, by our good parenting, have made ourselves entitled to God's salvation,

00:54:56 but because God saves through ordinary means.

00:55:00 And so I always think, you know, if God didn't intend to save my children, 0.96

00:55:03 then he would have given them to my pagan neighbors. 0.98

00:55:05 I believe God gave my children to me precisely because he wants to save them, and the same God who has predestinated their salvation predestinated the means by which they would come to that salvation, placing them in a God-fearing home. 0.55

00:55:24 And I think the sad thing is many parents, and I don't want to make light of this because it's tragic, but many parents would say, we can't believe that our son went off the rails.

00:55:34 Our daughter is not serving the Lord and has renounced Christ and doesn't even claim to be a follower of Jesus.

00:55:41 And we're not trying to be mean-spirited, but it's because we love children, we love parents, and those are tragic stories that we don't want to see happen.

00:55:49 And I think we have to, in a loving way, we have to address and say, okay, so you say you raised your children to fear the Lord.

00:55:58 But you never brought them to church.

00:56:00 You never had church in the home.

00:56:02 You never had family worship.

00:56:05 And if you did, for every 15 minutes of reading scripture with your kids, you subjected them to 40 hours a week of public school.

00:56:14 Right.

00:56:15 That has a worldview.

00:56:17 It's not just math.

00:56:18 There is no neutrality.

00:56:20 Could you speak on that for a moment, Scott?

00:56:23 What do you think about, can a Christian send their children to public school? 1.00

00:56:28 No. 1.00

00:56:30 Great answer.

00:56:32 Can you flesh it out a little bit?

00:56:34 Yeah, I'll quote Lodi Bauckham.

00:56:36 He said this probably over a decade ago, that the public school system is pagan by federal mandate.

00:56:45 and christians christians cannot send their children to to learn paganism christians are

00:56:51 commanded by god to bring their children up in the training of the admonition of the lord to teach the

00:56:56 whole counsel of god so um the student always becomes like his teacher and with the schools

00:57:04 that we have going now in our public system which are so corrupt they're so sexualized they're 0.98

00:57:10 They're insane. 0.88

00:57:12 They're telling kindergartners to try to figure out what gender they are. 0.62

00:57:16 So, no, you cannot, if you're a Christian, you cannot send your children into this system. 0.97

00:57:24 Amen. 1.00

00:57:24 Yeah, I think Bauckham also, he said, don't be surprised. 0.86

00:57:28 You know, if you send your kids off to Caesar, don't be surprised when they come back as Romans. 0.73

00:57:33 Yeah. 0.98

00:57:34 Yeah.

00:57:35 That's just, it's the myth of neutrality.

00:57:37 I think that's what it is.

00:57:38 It's just that parents, it's science, it's math, and they don't recognize, yeah, but

00:57:44 there is a way of teaching math to the glory of God, and there is a way of teaching math

00:57:48 that blasphemes God, that all truth is God's truth.

00:57:54 And so I would be of kind of the Francis Schaeffer, Kuyperian mindset of like, let's, instead

00:58:01 of burning the Babylonian libraries, like let's plunder them for whatever riches they

00:58:06 might have um but but you're only able to do that in in a way that brings any edification at all

00:58:14 when when your worldview is secure uh when when that when that's first put in place and you're

00:58:20 able to discern you're able to extract truth without without getting poison in in in the

00:58:28 process and i think that's part of the the problem is this buying into the myth of neutrality and

00:58:34 And then part of the problem also is we miscategorize our own children.

00:58:40 I've heard parents use the reasoning of, well, I want my children to—I don't want to shelter them.

00:58:46 I want them to be like missionaries.

00:58:48 And I would just say, they're not missionaries.

00:58:51 They're children.

00:58:53 You be a missionary.

00:58:54 You be a missionary.

00:58:55 Your five-year-old's not a missionary.

00:58:57 What are you talking about?

00:58:58 A missionary, that's—what kind of language does the Bible use?

00:59:01 Like, good soldiers of Christ Jesus.

00:59:03 What parent puts their five-year-old in an army to be a soldier?

00:59:06 Your children can be soldiers later, but right now they're children.

00:59:10 And so the idea of like, well, you're sheltering your children.

00:59:13 Yeah, I'm sheltering my children.

00:59:15 I mean, you can look at nature, natural revelation.

00:59:19 That's what even animals instinctively do is they shelter and protect their children. 0.98

00:59:25 We want them to be like arrows, and we're going to shoot them out one day, but not yet.

00:59:31 and yeah so it's just i don't know it's sad so all that being said i you know my point is just

00:59:38 to say that you know you know god the same god who predestines um the ends who he's going to save

00:59:45 he doesn't save arbitrarily right you know that romans 10 14 how would they believe unless they

00:59:50 hear and how would they hear unless someone preaches to them and so so i think it's safe

00:59:55 to say that at this you know god is sovereign over salvation and there there are some one-offs

01:00:01 But I believe that by and large, they are exceedingly rare. 0.95

01:00:04 You're Judas type of person.

01:00:06 I think that by and large, the radical majority is that if someone is submersed in the hearing of the word of God in the home and in the church, in their education, that God's going to save them.

01:00:24 And again, it's not a works-based salvation.

01:00:25 It's not if I do that, God will give me salvation.

01:00:28 It's exactly the opposite.

01:00:30 it switch it around and say um i am only doing this so it's not if i do this god owes salvation

01:00:37 to my children no it's if i do this it's only because god gave me the grace to do it

01:00:43 and god gave me the grace to do it because he determined before the foundations of the world

01:00:49 were laid to save this child and therefore he he determined the means of their salvation and

01:00:55 supplied the grace to me as their father or their mother in order to to be that means and so

01:01:01 anyway so all all that being said are there any final thoughts that you have about family worship

01:01:07 or family integrated worship in church or tyranny any of these things yeah scripture is sufficient

01:01:15 god has given us an eternal testimony it's all we need it's we should we should look there for

01:01:21 everything and not to the world. Amen. Tell us about your book one more time, the vaccine one.

01:01:28 Yeah. So this is a book called Forced Vaccinations, Thinking Biblically. And, you know, 0.53

01:01:37 I walked through various issues, just giving, I believe, biblical counsel for all these things.

01:01:44 The principle, the primary principle is that God owns your body and that he has given you jurisdiction over it and that the Bible makes it very clear that you can only do good to your body.

01:02:00 There's a chapter in here also about lies, dealing with lies.

01:02:06 Do you believe that these vaccine mandates are based on lies and what you do about that?

01:02:11 So I address that as well.

01:02:12 um but it's it's a book to just help people think through a vaccine mandate

01:02:18 that's really good where can people find that at churchandfamilylife.com that's our website

01:02:25 churchandfamilylife.com great it sounds like you've uh sounds like you're writing a book

01:02:31 like once every couple months do you write it it sounds like you write pretty often

01:02:35 i've got i've got three more that that are i want to push out in the next in the coming months

01:02:42 um but that's really cool all right well thank you so much for coming on the show

01:02:48 and i hope that our listeners will be blessed by it and i i hope to get to do it again with

01:02:52 you sometime soon hey i'd love it joel thank you so much it was such a delight as a special thank

01:02:58 you for your gift of any amount we'll be happy to send you a free digital book from our store

01:03:02 to access this offer visit right response ministries.com slash offer we highly recommend

01:03:09 and Pastor Joel's book, Am I Truly Saved?

01:03:11 If you or someone you know has wrestled with doubts

01:03:13 about the love of God, this would be a great resource.

01:03:17 As a reminder, to get this offer,

01:03:18 go to rightresponseministries.com slash offer.

01:03:21 And thank you for your generous support.

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The NXR Podcast - November 10, 2021

THEOLOGY APPLIED - Is ＂Children's Church＂ Biblical？

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