Pastor Scott Brown is the President of Church and Family Life, a family-integrated network of churches. In this episode, Pastor Brown and I discuss the importance of bringing your children to church, the benefits of multi-generational ministry, and the dangers of vaccines.
00:04:33.000And by God's grace, he changed my heart.
00:04:36.220And, you know, the short answer that I always give people, you know, is just when they say, well, how come you don't have a children's ministry, you know, or how come you don't do this?
00:04:44.880And I always just say, well, we believe that children should come to church.
00:04:48.440And I think part of what's difficult to persuade people with is that people don't really have a clear biblical definition of what constitutes the church.
00:05:02.040They would never see, you know, if you put your children in a separate wing of the church facilities and, you know, they have a Bible lesson, you know, and they're doing some Christian things, Bible-centered things, you know, the parents to say that you didn't bring your children to church this Lord's Day.
00:05:23.680That would be my conviction now, but that's because I better understand what the church is.
00:05:28.980And so I guess my question is, could you provide for our listeners a little bit of the biblical support for why children should participate with their mothers and fathers on the Lord's Day in worship?
00:05:41.860Sure. The only positive witness that we have in Scripture is for the church gathering generationally, all ages gathering together.
00:05:53.020The pattern is explicit in the Old Testament. It's explicit in the New Testament.
00:05:58.980It's really the only pattern that we have.
00:06:02.120It's one thing to say, well, there's no age segregation in the Bible.
00:06:11.020Well, that's not actually the primary argument that we have.
00:06:13.700Our argument is that the only thing you see in the Bible is a generational pattern of worship and discipleship.
00:06:22.920So the only reason that we bring the whole family together in worship is because that's the only thing you see in the Bible.
00:06:33.020So how would you respond to the antagonist who would say, well, I do believe in multi-generational discipleship, but a five-year-old isn't going to understand 75% of what the pastor is saying in his sermon.
00:08:04.240can you show me anything in scripture where there's a positive pattern for the segregation
00:08:11.600of age groups or life stages in the bible and the and the problem is there is none you can read the
00:08:19.100bible to your eyes bleed and there is not it just doesn't exist so um that's that's the question
00:08:26.640can you give me a positive witness from scripture about this pragmatic pattern and and frankly
00:08:33.720there just there just is none um so but you and when and people people have to come up with other
00:08:39.660things well they say well the rabbis you know the rabbis did it and i always say well our pattern
00:08:45.800isn't the rabbis i think jesus had a lot to say about the way the rabbis were conducting the
00:08:51.120church so and they weren't weren't positive so i don't our pattern is not the rabbis our pattern
00:08:56.660is not the culture our pattern is not our own pragmatism our pattern is the word of god alone
00:09:01.320Amen. Yeah, one thing that was helpful for me was, you know, around the same time that I was coming into the conviction of family integrated worship, I was also coming into the conviction of a church having a single service.
00:09:16.860And I don't know how you feel about that, Pastor Brown, but I, for me, I just, you know, I look at the New Testament word that's used for church, ecclesia, and that it means assembly or a gathering.
00:09:28.640And so the idea of, well, really, I mean, you know, I don't want to be too technical, but in 1 Corinthians chapter 11, when Paul is chastising the Corinthian church, he's chastising them for the manner, the heart posture, the attitude in which they were participating in the Lord's Supper.
00:09:47.280but but i think there's also a practical concern and so what we see clearly in the text the text
00:09:53.720is paul's concern his pastoral concern for their hearts their their their attitude and posture
00:09:59.680towards one another that some people are showing up early and despising those who come later and
00:10:04.140the rich despising the poor and uh some not having anything to eat and so there's certainly that
00:10:09.140element and that's the i would be willing to admit that that's the primary element but there's still
00:10:14.220the practical implication, which is you have two sets, two portions of the church that are showing
00:10:21.620up at two separate times. And it seems as though one of the things that the apostle is advocating
00:10:27.180for, he's hitting the spiritual issue of division. But I can't comprehend solving the spiritual issue
00:10:35.960of division without doing anything about the practical issue of division. That at the end of
00:10:41.960the day, even if our hearts are aligned and even if there's no resentment or bitterness or any of
00:10:46.700those things, division in our hearts, when you have half of the church showing up at 9 a.m. and
00:10:51.380then the other half of the church showing up at 11 a.m., you still have, with the Lord's Supper,
00:10:55.800it being divided. When Paul says earlier in 1 Corinthians 10, he says, just as there is one
00:11:01.680bread, we who are many are one. How do you do one loaf of bread at two separate times with two
00:11:09.620separate groups of people. And I think some people would probably hear that and say, you're being
00:11:14.160too technical or too literal interpretation of the text. But to me, it seems as though
00:11:20.860Christ's body is not meant to be divided. And it seems as though the Lord's Supper is this sign
00:11:29.840that is given to the church, this covenant renewal ceremony that in baptism, we enter into
00:11:37.040covenant unity with Christ and his people. So you could say in baptism, the one joins the many,
00:11:43.880but in the Lord's Supper, the many become one. And the Lord's Supper is the renewing,
00:11:48.980the renewal ceremonial covenant ceremony that we participate in. And I believe it should be
00:11:56.460weekly, that we're weekly participating in. And the symbolism, the picture is that the many who
00:12:02.920have been scattered all week long are being made one in this sacrament or ordinance of the Lord's
00:12:08.820Supper. And I don't know how to do that with two separate groups of people at 9 a.m. and 11 a.m.
00:12:15.820What do you think about the single service model of the church?
00:12:20.500Oh, I think that's absolutely the local pattern. You don't have one bread for the senior citizens,0.76
00:12:26.960One bread for the singles, one bread for the 13-year-olds, and one bread for the marrieds.
00:12:33.220The church is not a fragmented organism.
00:12:39.940And because the church is a family, it should look like a family.
00:12:44.380And as it turns out, when you have a family, you have older people, and you have younger, you have babies, and you have the whole group.
00:12:51.820So, yeah, I think the fragmentation of the church, the fracturing of the church is really an important matter.
00:13:00.860And, you know, what we've seen is that, you know, some children, when they're fragmented away from the worship of God, they grow up, they don't really even think the church is their church.
00:13:15.780I've heard horror stories and witnessed some of them in visiting churches where not only is it pre-K and kindergarten or even elementary, primary school, but all the way through high school.
00:13:30.680So all the way through 18 years old, it's one thing, and there's something that can be said about this as well, but it's one thing if it's a Wednesday night youth group.
00:13:39.720I think there is a distinction to be made when we talk about certain age-based ministries as a substitute for the Lord's Day gathering.
00:13:48.700I think that that's a really, really big deal.
00:13:51.940But I've been to churches, Reformed, at least in their soteriology churches, Reformed-ish churches, lowercase r, they're not confessional per se.
00:14:00.540But I've been to these churches where during Sunday morning, the adults, the parents, and mothers and fathers are in one room, and all the way through 18 years old, they're all in different rooms, you know, your elementary, your middle school, your high school, and they would even, they would boast as though this was a positive thing, but they would say, yeah, we have a middle school pastor and a high school pastor, and they're not just doing Christian activities.
00:14:26.560they have a sermon. Right now, the high school pastor is preaching through the book of Matthew.
00:14:32.800And the senior pastor with the mom and dad is preaching through the book of John. And essentially,
00:14:38.860in some of these megachurches, it's a large campus, and so it's not just a separate room,
00:14:42.920but a separate building. And I think your children go to another church. The families,
00:14:49.300it's not even attending the same church. You have separate pastors, you have separate sermons,
00:14:53.300separate books of the Bible, separate buildings, and when you do that all the way through 18 years
00:14:59.140old, that little Sally and little Johnny have never been to church with their parents.
00:15:06.860That's just crazy to me, and it's become normative.
00:15:10.380Yeah, this is a house of inventions. This is inventing a sociology that's contrary to the
00:15:19.400Bible, God has really established a particular kind of sociology. And when you go and invent0.79
00:15:26.440new sociologies, you've really departed from scripture. In fact, I mean, even the whole
00:15:34.600imposition of critical race theory and identity politics is a reinvention of the sociology of
00:15:41.460the church. It completely revamps the way that everybody relates with one other. And it's
00:15:45.640actually satanic uh because the church was the church was never meant to function according to
00:15:51.820an identity politics uh platform the church is a family and there and there are ways that we treat
00:16:00.120one another like the older teach the younger right that's what they do um and you have brother you
00:16:07.140are brothers and sisters together and there's just there's just no evidence at all that the church is
00:16:14.220a fragmented sociology it's a unified sociology and i and i really think it breaks up the unity
00:16:19.960of the body of christ i completely agree both critical race theory and intersectionality as
00:16:26.260well as many other things under the the large woke banner that we have today um they are they
00:16:32.940are tools um but i like what james lindsey what he says not a brother in christ he's an atheist
00:16:38.280but a friend. And the Lord in his mercy has used him to be a help to the church during this
00:16:45.720difficult time. But James Lindsay says, yeah, critical race theory, intersectionality,
00:16:49.360they're tools in the same way that a jackhammer is a tool. There are certain tools that the only
00:16:54.960thing they do is deconstruct. They don't build anything. And so the sad reality is that these
00:17:02.140things, it's not that they're not working. They are working. They're doing precisely what they
00:17:07.780were forged in the fire of hell to accomplish which is division and deconstruction and so on0.92
00:17:13.040that note do you find do you find an irony in the sense that that we're all about racial
00:17:18.960reconciliation and racial justice in our culture today and so much of the church has bought into
00:17:24.780this taking its cues from the culture instead of the word of god and then you know and and so we
00:17:30.360wouldn't even dream of something like you know racial segregation and then and then at the same
00:17:35.300time with with vaccines and then and then with precisely what we're talking about with with ages
00:17:41.500demographics um we're segregated we're completely segregated i mean even the church like for months
00:17:47.340now even before the vaccines came out there you know churches decided we're going to do two
00:17:51.960services we're going to have a mask only service without singing which i don't know how how you
00:17:56.720defend that in scripture without you know that commands us to address you know not only god but
00:18:01.040one another with psalms and hymns and so we're going to have one service where we administer
00:18:06.340some of the means of grace but not all the means of grace we're deliberately choosing not to obey
00:18:11.560all the all the things that god tells us to do when we gather together and we're going to we're
00:18:16.140going to enforce we're going to require masks and then we're going to have another service where
00:18:20.120masks are optional and where there is singing and and i look at that and i'm just between mass
00:18:25.300between vaccines and then and then what we're talking about for decades the church with age
00:18:29.640has been segregated and we talk about how you know we're all about unity and um and and but
00:18:35.820we're number one we're going about it the wrong way because we've we've we've despised the word
00:18:41.140of god uh but then number two we're so narrow-minded we keep thinking about unity in terms of of racial
00:18:47.300reconciliation and and we're completely content to divide in all these other ways and and so it's
00:18:53.780just it's just funny that like you know people who they're like how how in the world could there
00:18:57.780have been separate water fountains you know for during jim crow era you know for white people and0.68
00:19:03.040black people and then and then in the next breath you see them you know essentially doing the very0.58
00:19:08.880same thing between the vaxxed and the unvaxxed have you seen that have you felt the irony in0.99
00:19:13.880some of these things oh yeah it's bizarre it's a return to the things that we turned away from
00:19:19.480a long time ago you know we we turned away from that kind of segregation decades ago and now
00:19:26.600people somehow for some crazy reason want to return to it but here's the here's the root of
00:19:32.000the issue this is the root of the issue for why you have uh churches that are that segregate
00:19:38.680the generations it's really one issue and and it's it's the reason we have people embracing
00:19:45.760critical race theory uh the church doesn't believe that scripture is sufficient the church
00:19:52.820believes that culture is sufficient and if you look at the great movements at least just in my
00:19:58.320lifetime the seeker sensitive movement the emergent church movement and and and now you
00:20:04.520have this woke movement it's it's just the same thing it's nothing different i've seen this i've
00:20:09.480seen this already before and it's it's that the church isn't satisfied with the word of god alone
00:20:20.000the church wants something cooler than god you're right and so that's why the church is a house of
00:20:26.740inventions in a lot of ways we become like the roman catholic church we're inventing all these
00:20:31.340offices we're inventing all these pilgrimages and all kinds of ways of righteousness that the bible
00:20:37.160doesn't but they're they're thrilling to people you know give them candles give them some incense
00:20:42.780you know give them something to thrill them give them some images you know in the wall give them
00:20:47.600some statues that'll thrill them that'll that'll get them closer to god well those this is a house
00:20:52.340of inventions and the the reason the church became segregated in the generations is because
00:21:00.760it happened in in a season where the church really just wanted to be creative
00:21:07.040and create creativity is a disaster in the church
00:21:11.020mm-hmm no you're right i always want to remind christians that you know there's
00:21:18.020there's a difference between the inerrancy of scripture and the sufficiency and i think there
00:21:23.100are still many you know card-carrying evangelicals who will you know tip their hat to the inerrancy
00:21:28.520of scripture that scripture is authoritative um that you know we believe that scripture is
00:21:33.480um you know that it is you know sola scriptura the idea that you know scripture alone and what
00:21:38.860we mean by that is we don't mean scripture is the only authority um because scripture itself
00:21:43.400testifies to other authorities that god has established and instituted but what we do mean
00:21:47.840is that scripture is the highest authority and it's the only infallible authority so it's the
00:21:52.640only authority that that never errs and it is the highest authority and many christians would would
00:21:57.600respond to that by saying yes and amen um the problem is when we get to the sufficiency of
00:22:03.860scripture and the reality is it's you know christians they think that they're being faithful
00:22:07.620because they would say, well, I would never contradict the authority of Scripture.
00:22:12.620But you can effectively, in effect, you can completely bypass the authority of Scripture
00:22:19.360by simply saying that the Scripture doesn't apply to this or to that.
00:22:23.780So you're recognizing, tipping your hat in word, you're paying credence to the authority of Scripture.
00:22:31.560But in action, if you don't hold to the sufficiency of Scripture for all of life,
00:22:37.180then then it doesn't matter if it's authoritative it would be the equivalent you know a good analogy
00:22:43.080or illustration would it be the equivalent of you know having a um a sword on the mantle of
00:22:48.680your fireplace at home and it's it's encased in some kind of glass you know glass case and it's
00:22:54.380you know it's a double-edged sword you know and it's sharp and it's you know and and you brag
00:23:00.040about it with your children your grandchildren you know as you gather around the fireplace maybe
00:23:04.180it's an old war relic that you used you know decades in the past and this is the sword that
00:23:08.680i that i've used in this context in that context and look look at its beauty look at the craftsmanship
00:23:13.880look at its effectiveness all these kinds of things um but the that that's that's the inerrancy
00:23:20.340of scripture but the sufficiency is when you actually you know open the glass case and and
00:23:26.180take the sword down and use it and i think that's the problem is that there's so many things especially
00:23:31.960in the last 18 months that have come our way.1.00
00:23:34.880And Christians, while still acknowledging0.98
00:23:36.960that the scripture is authoritative,0.98
00:23:39.520they have no earthly idea how to apply the scripture to,
00:24:07.820We come to the church thinking it's a blank canvas for our own creative license and freedom.
00:24:13.720And we don't think that the Word of God actually tells us how to worship, that it conducts our affairs and especially our Lord's Day gathering.
00:24:24.520And for me, understanding what constitutes church was a really, I think the same mindset, the same wrong principles that allowed us to segregate the church based off of age for the decades was the same mindset that allowed many Christians and sadly many pastors to have completely, to have consciences that were completely at ease when it came to live streaming their church services for months on end.
00:24:52.260with no sense of urgency that we've got to get back to gathering
00:24:55.280because we can't answer the question, what is church?
00:25:01.180And I would say, and maybe you can add to this, Pastor Scott,
00:25:04.600but I would say that church is the gathering of the saints on the Lord's Day.
00:25:09.380The Lord's Day is the Christian Sabbath.
00:25:11.580And so Christ, he did not abrogate the Sabbath, but he did not remove it,
00:25:16.500but he renewed the Sabbath from the last day of the week to the first day of the week
00:25:20.080by virtue of his resurrection and his appearance to the apostles.
00:25:24.300And so it's the gathering of the saints, young and old, on the Lord's Day.
00:25:28.900It's the ecclesia, one assembly, one gathering of all the saints together
00:25:33.660on the Lord's Day, the first day of the week,
00:25:36.200for the administering of the ordinary means of grace,
00:25:38.740which is to publicly preach the word, publicly pray the word,
00:25:42.640publicly sing the word, and also publicly see the word, S-E-E,
00:25:48.040in the only ordinances that have been given to us by Christ
00:25:52.600that are by sight, which would be baptism and the Lord's Supper.
00:25:57.260And we don't live by sight, but we live by faith.
00:26:00.000And faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God,
00:26:05.620That's why we adhere to the second commandment.
00:26:07.900And the Protestant church has rejected Rome0.64
00:26:10.780that fills its cathedrals with all of these things by sight.
00:26:15.040However, the Lord has given us these two things that are visible, that tell us something about Christ and his people and the covenant that he's made with us.
00:26:26.120And so I would say that's what it is, the Lord's Day gathering of all the saints together, one gathering, one ecclesia for publicly preaching the word, publicly praying the word, publicly singing the word, and publicly seeing the word in baptism and the Lord's Supper.
00:26:40.040And wherever that is not happening, if that's not occurring, I would contend that that's simply not church, that church has been defined for us.
00:26:51.960And so if I'm sending my children to another room and that's not happening, it's not the gathering of the saints on the Lord's day for the preaching, the praying, the singing and the seeing of the word of God, all word centric.
00:27:04.100then I am sending my children to some other place than church. Would you agree with that definition?
00:27:11.040Would you add anything to that? No, I think that's exactly it. And the problem that we have
00:27:16.400been facing in evangelicalism is it's exactly as you said. People have been content to accept
00:27:25.140inerrancy as an intellectual proposition, but they don't want God to tell them what to do,
00:27:31.880and particularly what to do on the Lord's day.
00:27:46.500And he's controlling your time by saying,
00:27:48.160work six days and then come and worship me one day.
00:27:51.960And I think it's really a matter of submission and authority
00:27:55.560and the desire that we have to hold an intellectual proposition
00:28:01.360like inerrancy and and and call ourselves christians but yet not really being willing
00:28:08.420to say lord what would you have me do i want to do the things that you said we should do
00:28:13.880in the church and in the family and at work and in every part of life right right it's the regular
00:28:20.740principle of worship but really it's the regular principle for for all of life that god um there
00:28:28.300there are choices that are made available to us. You know, there's nothing in the word of God that
00:28:32.440says, you know, thou, thou must take this job over that job. But the reality is even with that
00:28:37.400example that I just gave, uh, well, let's look at these two companies and let's look at the ethics
00:28:42.840behind them and the principles. And let's also look at what they pay and the type of work that
00:28:46.680I would be doing and what's more glorifying to God. What did they pay? What allows for me to
00:28:50.420better provide for my family? Uh, what's the work schedule that one makes me work on Sunday,
00:28:55.460right and one doesn't require me and so you know for me i i you know i used to be charismatic i
00:29:01.380don't know if you're familiar with jack deer uh but i i was a part of his church uh once upon a
00:29:06.260time when i was in college and helped with the prophetic teams and those kind of things and
00:29:10.720um and then slowly but surely the lord you know he just he brought me into calvinism and
00:29:15.600complementarianism and he brought me into congregationalism and and uh cessationism
00:29:21.120and all these notorious, infamous C words is what I call them, all the bad C words.
00:29:27.520And the big C word is confessionalism.
00:29:29.820And so it took me a long time, but eventually I became Reformed Baptist and confessional.
00:29:34.720But one of the things that helped me to kind of embrace cessationism is I just realized that what you're saying,
00:29:43.040the sufficiency of god's word that what i used to see as prophecy i i now realize that there's
00:29:50.800not one prophetic word that i ever got for someone um that could not have been arrived at
00:29:57.400equally or better by simply the word plus providence the word plus providence and i
00:30:05.660really that that is how god guides his people he does it through special revelation first and
00:30:10.660foremost, but then also in natural revelation that these two things are too powerful. So you
00:30:17.900think that like, well, but the Bible doesn't, yeah, but God is directing his people. He is a
00:30:23.120shepherd. He is guiding his sheep very meticulously, with much more control, like you said, than I
00:30:30.260think we're willing to recognize or able to recognize. And so when I look at the word of God
00:30:35.720and all of its commands, like for me, I left California. And when people say, why did you
00:30:40.280leave california i would say the word of god um because the word of god tells me that that uh
00:30:46.260titus 2 uh talks about uh what what women should be older women training younger women and teaching0.65
00:30:51.760them to to submit to their husbands to love their children um but then also talks about uh working
00:30:57.580at home and so i i i i want my wife to be able to be at home and then looking at the word of god
00:31:03.220fathers do not provoke your children to wrath but rather you know train them up and then and so i
00:31:07.760is i'm responsible for my children's education and and it must be a distinctly christian education
00:31:13.500that i give them whether it be homeschooling or classical christian school outside the home but
00:31:17.980either way my wife needs to be at home to teach the children um or i i have to be able to afford
00:31:24.480the tuition for a private school um and then you know and then wanting to a good man leaves an
00:31:30.120inheritance for his not only his children but his children's children and although it can be nothing
00:31:34.620less than a spiritual inheritance, I believe that it does include more, that it includes building
00:31:40.940wealth and leaving a material inheritance for your children. Money is not evil. It's the love
00:31:46.460of money that is evil. And money can be used to do wonderful things for the glory of God. And so
00:31:50.840as I was looking at all this, and then the lifelong command, you know, not children in the
00:31:55.620home obey their parents, but even grown children are called to honor thy father and thy mother.
00:32:00.440And as my parents begin to age and my wife's parents begin to age, you know, they weren't going to be able to retire in San Diego, California.
00:32:09.280And so we wanted to be closer to them so that we could care for them.
00:32:12.480Like 1 Timothy chapter 5, that children should give some return to their parents for this is pleasing in the sight of God.
00:32:18.320And so as I just constructed, you know, looking at the word of God and then looking at its real application in terms of this is how much money it's going to cost to obey Jesus.
00:32:28.220and you might say well there are people who are poor in china and north korea that obey jesus
00:32:33.580yeah that that's absolutely true the difference is they're stuck i i had a choice i didn't have
00:32:39.120to live in california i didn't have to live by the beach i had a choice and so there's the
00:32:43.300providence piece so between the word of god special revelation and the providence piece
00:32:47.600and then looking at my budget and looking at how much i was going to be able to make and what i'd
00:32:51.500be able to do and then that doesn't even bring into question what my taxes were going to in
00:32:55.780california and what i was supporting and so all these things uh it became as though it was almost
00:33:02.200as clear so there were actually a verse in the bible that said joel webben thou shalt move to
00:33:07.660texas and leave california you know and and so my point is the word of god is sufficient it just it
00:33:13.120takes work it you know what i mean it takes study do you have any comment on that and it yeah and
00:33:19.720And it takes a heart that says, Lord, I want to do what you want me to do.
00:33:26.320I mean, I've seen this happen in so many people's lives, just like the way you've just described it.
00:33:31.440Lord, I want to raise my children the way that you said.
00:33:37.620I mean, in fact, an entire shift in thousands of people's thinking was when they realized the Bible said, be fruitful and multiply.
00:33:47.780and there there were people that said wow lord if that's if you say that's good i want to do that
00:33:57.300you know i want to be a living picture of what's in the word of god i don't want to go and invent
00:34:03.100my own life you know it's the heart that says lord i came to you because i needed you to lead me
00:34:07.780and that's that's really the whole matter of of the sufficiency of scripture
00:34:13.660that you you think scripture is all you need and so as you navigate your way through life you're
00:34:21.040always looking to the word of god and you you know you describe the worship of god in the church you
00:34:26.800know there's been a great return to those simple means of grace and it's it's so important you know
00:34:32.600that we do that i mean john knox uh said you know all all word all inventions of man in the worship
00:43:20.660Yeah. And I would expand on that a little bit by saying, by talking about it like this. You have the government has a little bit of authority over lots of people. The church has more authority than the government over a smaller number of people.
00:43:40.480the family has lots of authority nearly unlimited authority over a very very small number of people
00:43:49.900so that's really in this in this authority structure you you both have you you both have
00:43:56.260the definition of the authority and you also have the scope of the authority and that's that's just
00:44:02.460simply thinking christianly that's all that is and um so that's why the government doesn't have
00:44:09.180exclusive authority jesus christ has exclusive authority over all the other authorities so you
00:44:15.040have this great authority over all the jurisdictions and then you have uh the the definition and the
00:44:23.120scope on each jurisdiction that's the way that god designed it and yeah you know this the state
00:44:30.520is given the sword the family is given the rod the church is given the word of god i mean those
00:44:35.000are the those are the those are the means of of instruction that's right and even that you could
00:44:41.900argue i heard someone say just the other day that the individual is given the conscience
00:44:45.820um that you know that even the conscience it governs and regulates and disciplines the
00:44:53.300individual it restrains him from certain things um and so at every level whether it be self-leadership
00:45:00.300or a husband's leadership of his wife and children
00:45:02.740or like you're saying, a civil magistrate
00:46:47.540Eventually, I want to have an evening service, not for a second group of people to attend,
00:46:51.860but for the same group of people to attend church twice, because it's not just the Lord's hour, but the Lord's Day.
00:46:56.980And so anyways, all that being said, but believing the promises of God that rebelling is bound up in the heart of a child and the rod will remove it far from them.
00:47:05.720That is such a relieving, delivering, hope-filled promise that if I just obey God's word in this arena, that he's made this promise and he's faithful.
00:47:23.080Real quick, I'd love to pick your brain on this.
00:47:25.400how should we do family worship? How did you do family worship with your children? And now with
00:47:30.940your grandchildren, senior children do that. How do you do family worship in your home?
00:47:35.860Very simply, we would get up in the morning and we would read the Bible. We read four chapters.
00:47:44.280We read through the Bible nearly every year, maybe 16, 17 years of raising our children.
00:47:53.800And I would ask pretty much one question.
00:47:57.880What wonderful thing did you see in the word of God?
00:48:02.320And then we would pray and sometimes we would sing.
00:50:50.260And, you know, and so like, so, you know, even like a question, like teaching them the Lord's prayer does, you know, should a two-year-old pray our father, right?
00:51:02.080Even if it, you know, it's like, well, I'm not sure if they're regenerate yet.
00:51:09.320And, you know, but coming from my Baptist background, there was a time when I would have said no.
00:51:13.180There was a time when I would have said, yeah, but they're not, you know, they're not regenerate.
00:51:17.440And those kind of what could you help me with how would you make that argument for parents?
00:51:23.880You know, because the way that I would verbalize it is like parents should raise their children not just to be Christians, but but as Christians, how would pastorally what would you say to parents about that?
00:51:34.320Well, parents are under divine commands to teach their children when they sit in the house, when they walk by the way, when they lie down, and when they rise up.
00:51:43.140Parents are obligated before God to bring them up in the training and the admonition of what?
00:53:01.440children should pray in their families and i i completely agree i was yeah go ahead yeah no i
00:53:09.020i completely agree and i think um you know i some of the psalms that you know where where the
00:53:14.380psalmist says you know from from my youth or even more than that it's like um sure from my mother's
00:53:20.460womb you know like like from infancy and i think you know the famous quote by polycarp that you
00:53:26.900know the disciple of the apostle john where right before he was martyred you know 80 and six years
00:53:32.120have i served thee he has never done me any harm you know how how now could i then blaspheme my
00:53:39.040my my savior and my king my savior and uh and most you know most historians and biblical
00:53:46.160commentators and theologians would all argue that um that 86 years was the length of his
00:53:52.580entire life that um so essentially you know polycarp is saying i've served christ from
00:53:58.680my birth and uh and i think that's the testimony is it is it that's the testimony that we want for
00:54:05.220our children is i i i cannot remember a single day that uh that i did not profess jesus as lord
00:54:12.800and i tell parents all the time they're like well yeah but god's sovereign over salvation you know
00:54:17.300And I'm like, yeah, God's sovereign over salvation, but why do we do evangelism?
00:54:22.580The same God who's sovereign over the ends of people's salvation is sovereign over the means.
00:54:29.500And the means that God has granted to save people ordinarily is through the church and the family.
00:54:36.500And so that if someone is submerged in a gospel-preaching church and also a gospel-preaching family,
00:54:43.120then I think we should expect that God is going to save them.
00:54:49.020Not because we, by our good parenting, have made ourselves entitled to God's salvation,
00:54:56.920but because God saves through ordinary means.
00:55:00.660And so I always think, you know, if God didn't intend to save my children,0.96
00:55:03.860then he would have given them to my pagan neighbors.0.98
00:55:05.940I believe God gave my children to me precisely because he wants to save them, and the same God who has predestinated their salvation predestinated the means by which they would come to that salvation, placing them in a God-fearing home.0.55
00:55:24.120And I think the sad thing is many parents, and I don't want to make light of this because it's tragic, but many parents would say, we can't believe that our son went off the rails.
00:55:34.320Our daughter is not serving the Lord and has renounced Christ and doesn't even claim to be a follower of Jesus.
00:55:41.600And we're not trying to be mean-spirited, but it's because we love children, we love parents, and those are tragic stories that we don't want to see happen.
00:55:49.400And I think we have to, in a loving way, we have to address and say, okay, so you say you raised your children to fear the Lord.
01:00:06.980I think that by and large, the radical majority is that if someone is submersed in the hearing of the word of God in the home and in the church, in their education, that God's going to save them.
01:00:24.040And again, it's not a works-based salvation.
01:00:25.940It's not if I do that, God will give me salvation.
01:00:30.120it switch it around and say um i am only doing this so it's not if i do this god owes salvation
01:00:37.680to my children no it's if i do this it's only because god gave me the grace to do it
01:00:43.820and god gave me the grace to do it because he determined before the foundations of the world
01:00:49.520were laid to save this child and therefore he he determined the means of their salvation and
01:00:55.440supplied the grace to me as their father or their mother in order to to be that means and so
01:01:01.560anyway so all all that being said are there any final thoughts that you have about family worship
01:01:07.220or family integrated worship in church or tyranny any of these things yeah scripture is sufficient
01:01:15.680god has given us an eternal testimony it's all we need it's we should we should look there for
01:01:21.460everything and not to the world. Amen. Tell us about your book one more time, the vaccine one.
01:01:28.960Yeah. So this is a book called Forced Vaccinations, Thinking Biblically. And, you know,0.53
01:01:37.340I walked through various issues, just giving, I believe, biblical counsel for all these things.
01:01:44.740The principle, the primary principle is that God owns your body and that he has given you jurisdiction over it and that the Bible makes it very clear that you can only do good to your body.
01:02:00.380There's a chapter in here also about lies, dealing with lies.
01:02:06.200Do you believe that these vaccine mandates are based on lies and what you do about that?