The NXR Podcast - THEOLOGY APPLIED - Jordan Peterson ｜ God’s Gift Or Judgment To The Church？

00:00:00.000 Hey guys, real quick, before we get started, I have a small request.

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00:00:06.420 would you take just a brief moment and leave us a five-star review?

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00:00:18.040 Hi, this is Pastor Joel Webin with Right Response Ministries,

00:00:20.420 and you're listening to another episode of Theology Applied.

00:00:23.060 In this episode, I was privileged to be joined by, I believe, the 147th time by John Her...

00:00:29.240 I think it's like our fourth or fifth time, but always a pleasure to have John Harris,

00:00:33.740 a friend of mine back on the show, talking about a bunch of stuff.

00:00:37.440 We really, it's kind of, you get to be a fly on the wall for a friendly conversation of

00:00:41.860 me and John catching back up.

00:00:43.420 We talk about Jordan Peterson.

00:00:44.600 We talk about the SBC.

00:00:45.840 We talk about Megan Basham and the Daily Wire.

00:00:49.220 And we talk about Tim Keller.

00:00:50.560 And I guess if I had to boil it down to one thing, it would be, how come conservative

00:00:55.820 Christians, myself and John included, right now feel like we have more in common with Jordan

00:01:00.620 Peterson than Tim Keller. And are there problems with that? How should we feel about that? How do

00:01:06.020 we dissect that, think about that? And so where do we go from here? So that's kind of the conversation

00:01:10.340 that we have. I think you're going to enjoy it. Thanks for tuning in. Applying God's word to

00:01:14.600 every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied. All right. Welcome back to another episode of

00:01:24.460 Theology Applied. I am your host, Pastor Joel Webin with Right Response Ministries. And in

00:01:29.060 this episode, I am privileged to welcome back for the 17th time, I'm not sure, it's been a few, but

00:01:36.380 one of my good friends, John Harris with Conversations That Matter. John, welcome to the

00:01:41.400 show. Thanks, Joel. It's good to be here and good to be a frequent flyer. I don't have many places

00:01:46.680 I'm like that, so thank you. Well, we enjoy you here. So tell our listeners in case they're

00:01:51.420 stopping in for the first time and aren't really familiar with your ministry and who you are,

00:01:55.420 tell us a little bit about yourself. I am a misogynistic Christian nationalist. 0.98

00:02:00.620 Amen. Right, right. No, I've written a few books on social justice and the church specifically. 1.00

00:02:10.660 I have a podcast, Conversations That Matter, and I do a little bit of film work with Last Stand

00:02:15.800 Studios. And you can find links for, I think, all of that at worldviewconversation.com.

00:02:20.620 And next thing coming up is a men's retreat on the last weekend of October with Dr. Russell Fuller.

00:02:27.800 And that's kind of what I'm putting a lot of energy into right now.

00:02:30.880 So, yeah.

00:02:32.000 Awesome.

00:02:32.360 Real quick, name your books and where people can get them.

00:02:35.040 They can go to worldviewconversation.com or they can go to Amazon or Barnes & Noble.

00:02:39.700 The first one is Social Justice Goes to Church.

00:02:42.900 And then the second one is called Christianity and Social Justice.

00:02:46.360 And they're both about the social justice movement.

00:02:49.400 The first one's kind of a history of how social justice got into evangelicalism.

00:02:53.640 The second one is more of an apologetic against social justice and for biblical justice and all of that.

00:02:59.820 Cool. Great. All right. Well, let's go ahead and dive into it. 0.99

00:03:02.180 So we corresponded a little bit before we started recording and sounds like there's things to talk about.

00:03:08.120 You've already done an episode on this on your platform, but I think it could be cool for us to just chat a bit back and forth about the phenomenon that is Jordan Peterson.

00:03:18.400 and not only Jordan Peterson, but kind of a larger conversation of what do we do as

00:03:23.660 evangelical Christians who want to be not pietist, but also not progressives, right?

00:03:29.600 So we want to have this orthodox, robust, conservative, biblical doctrine that we apply,

00:03:35.600 that we, not just in our marriage and parenting, but we go into the voting booth as Christians.

00:03:40.160 We don't leave our Christianity behind.

00:03:41.920 In every realm of life, we're seeking to do what the Bible says, right?

00:03:45.420 So we're not pietists, but we're also not progressive.

00:03:48.060 And what we keep finding is that guys like Jordan Peterson, or with the whole SBC debacle

00:03:53.620 that's going on right now about sexual abuse, someone like Megan Basham, I keep finding

00:03:59.500 myself having, in some sense, more in common with some of these guys than the Gospel Coalition

00:04:06.920 or leaders in the SBC, you know?

00:04:09.600 And I'll say that at least in the case of Megan Basham, who is a Protestant Orthodox

00:04:14.620 Rock's Christian. I've spoken with her. But what do we do with that? When we find ourselves

00:04:20.360 aligning with some of these guys who are, they're politically conservative and culturally

00:04:24.600 conservative, but some of them, like Jordan Peterson, I don't think the guy's a Christian.

00:04:29.600 I'm pretty certain he's not a Christian. But then I feel like when he's talking, I can amen

00:04:36.080 more to Jordan Peterson than I can to Tim Keller. What's going on? And how do we live in this weird

00:04:42.380 world because i i'm hesitant in fact more than that i won't just throw my lot in with the daily

00:04:48.040 wire i appreciate them i'm grateful for that but i'm we're not the same i'm a follower of jesus

00:04:55.180 i'm not catholic i'm not jewish you know so what what are your thoughts in navigating this just

00:05:00.880 this weirdo upside down world that we're living in yeah well joel i think you're a good theologian

00:05:07.300 And you can you understand the concept of providence and how the rain falls and the righteous and unrighteous and how even pagan philosophers at times can get things right.

00:05:19.540 In fact, we were just reading today where Paul in a discipleship thing I was doing where Paul quotes a pagan philosopher.

00:05:30.260 And I kind of like, you know, I noticed it.

00:05:35.020 it just, I thought, wow, that's so interesting that Paul would do this. And he does it more

00:05:38.960 than once. And pagans can sometimes have a right metaphysic, or at least one that's right

00:05:47.160 often, most of the time. It gets basic things like there's men and women, right?

00:05:53.380 Whereas some Christians or professing Christians, I should say, out there who might, they have

00:06:02.180 the word of god right they have this book they have um they have revelation that they should

00:06:08.280 be able to appeal to really what they're doing though they say that's what they say we're we're

00:06:14.840 biblical christians but really i think what they're doing is their authority is not the word

00:06:19.020 of god it's uh whatever's going to save them from the ire of the media or get to give them

00:06:26.160 perhaps positively the praise of the media and cultural influential people so

00:06:31.700 i think that's really the difference you have some pagans who are committed to

00:06:37.760 at least a concept of objective truth in some sense even if it's just based on their sense

00:06:42.980 perception a natural revelation of some kind and then you have christians who say one thing but

00:06:48.220 actually they they don't even have as principle to stand as some of these pagans right and um and

00:06:55.140 And so I think in influential positions in politics, you have, well, in especially conservative politics, there's somewhat of a lagging behind.

00:07:08.700 It's a shadow that follows progressivism, but it lags.

00:07:12.720 And so the popular political conservatives today that have influence tend to carry with them the ideas that were in vogue, you know, a decade, two decades, three decades ago.

00:07:25.140 And now that's changing, of course, and we can talk about that. But, you know, just today, I saw an ad on Facebook, I think it was for this documentary, this is going to sound unrelated, but it's related for a, it was a documentary about country music, right?

00:07:42.160 but it was a blm style documentary which had as predicated that it's it's black people who

00:07:48.680 invented country music and it was stolen from them and they've been kept out of the industry

00:07:52.480 and so right it's this blm kind of narrative and i thought to myself when i saw this i thought

00:07:56.760 wow like country music i think of more kind of traditional middle america a little more at least

00:08:03.600 in line with what i would think would be family values more than like pop or some other genres

00:08:07.480 But here we have what was considered a traditional art medium is changing so fast. It's caving to this postmodern Marxist narrative. And I see that in everything, sports. I mean, it's everything. Political conservatism, I think, has lagged more. Christianity, even, like the industry of Christianity, Big Eva, right?

00:08:29.440 But they've been a little more current with trying to keep up with this Marxist move than political conservatism.

00:08:36.840 So I think it'll be interesting to see what happens in like two decades to see where political conservatives are at at that point.

00:08:43.980 But for right now, they're still trying to conserve 1998.

00:08:47.920 They think that was a good year.

00:08:49.560 We should just keep that, right?

00:08:50.900 Right. No, you're absolutely right. I think that's really helpful because they're not led by this guiding moral fabric of the word of God is the inerrant and sufficient and the final arbiter of all truth.

00:09:07.280 No, it's just, man, we'd like to get back to 1998. Things seemed nice back in 1998 when tough on crime policies and cleaning up New York and the war on drugs.

00:09:20.900 and men were men and women were women.

00:09:23.540 And, you know, it's like, yeah, well, that is better than now, certainly better than now.

00:09:27.380 But yeah, you're right.

00:09:28.500 It's just, it's the, I always say it's the principles of Christ while rejecting the person

00:09:32.500 of Christ, which never leads to the peace of Christ.

00:09:35.420 And so, but what you said earlier, I think is really insightful because I think one of

00:09:40.580 the reasons why we're finding more common ground with some of these conservative pundits,

00:09:44.880 you know, culturally and politically conservative guys, whether they're Christian or not, is

00:09:48.700 because um really it's like it's like the woke progressive social justice christians out there

00:09:56.640 they're no different than the conservative non-christians um both what they have in common

00:10:03.760 is neither one sees the word of god as uh the final authority right so right so what if it's

00:10:10.360 the you know so if it's um the the woke social justice you know peddlers within within christian

00:10:16.220 they'll claim to be Christian and they may affirm the Trinity and they may affirm, you know, this

00:10:20.940 and may affirm that, but the Bible is never, it's never the final say. It's not the final arbiter

00:10:27.860 for truth, just like these conservative pundits who don't even claim to be Christian. So really

00:10:33.400 they're just, in a sense, they're just more honest, you know, like, so Jordan Peterson,

00:10:37.580 when he talks about the Bible, it is abundantly clear, he's honest, at least, it's abundantly

00:10:42.160 clear that um that he thinks the bible is really helpful um but but but it's his intellect and

00:10:49.040 it's psychology and it's these other it's these other sources that that uh lie underneath the

00:10:55.700 bible the bible is true because this tells me and this tells me and it's only true in certain ways

00:11:02.100 allegorically and it's you know like so the bible is true in a sense i should say and it's only true

00:11:07.980 in a sense, because this higher authority of psychology and sense perception and experience

00:11:14.180 and tells me that the Bible is true, you know, or human history. Whereas, you know, for me,

00:11:20.380 like, so I'm, you know, a presuppositional guy. So for me, it's like the Bible always has to be

00:11:24.640 on the bottom. It's like, you know, you can, you can point to other sources and you can, you know,

00:11:28.500 you can do these kinds of, John Frame used to talk about with his presuppositional apologetic,

00:11:32.380 he would say it's, it is circular logic. He said, but it's, it's a big circle. He's like,

00:11:36.360 it is circular logic to be fair, but it's like, we take them on a big circle and we can show them

00:11:41.000 this source and that source. And at the end of the day, we know the Bible is the word of God

00:11:45.360 because it says so, you know, and it's like, and I know that R.C. Sproul would disagree with that

00:11:49.840 and classical apology, but I think of the apologetic, I think of the pre-sub kind of

00:11:54.060 argument because I feel like both of these guys, whether it's the conservative pundit who doesn't

00:11:58.060 even claim to be a Christian or it's your Tim Keller, you know, woke social justice guy who

00:12:02.260 does claim to be a Christian. At the end of the day, what they both have in common is neither

00:12:05.860 sees the bible as the final authority one says it the other just admits it but neither of them in

00:12:11.740 practice actually view the bible as the supreme authority would you is that what you're saying

00:12:17.360 yeah i think you're you're hitting it that uh jordan peterson i think is a more stubborn than

00:12:23.440 a tim keller as far as um when the cultural winds are gonna blow really strong jordan peterson may

00:12:29.400 be more resistant to those cultural wins. And he may even appeal to the Bible as one of the sources

00:12:35.880 of inspiration, truth that hedges against these wins, but ultimately undergirding that is going

00:12:43.460 to be probably a psychology or some scientific basis of, or, or, or even just an appeal to

00:12:49.160 tradition, just, just tradition as tradition. And this is what's worked for so many years.

00:12:55.160 Tim Keller, I think, he'll have a more right theology that he can articulate to you about what the Bible is, the nature of it.

00:13:01.600 But when those cultural winds start blowing, Tim Keller figures out ways to do gymnastics with the Bible,

00:13:07.660 to cram in understandings of justice where he's going outside the text to get these, but he doesn't tell you he's doing that, right?

00:13:16.160 Jordan Peterson, it's obvious he's doing that, and he'll tell you that's what he's doing.

00:13:19.660 And so I appreciate in some ways the honesty of Jordan Peterson and the stubbornness, and maybe that's phrasing it too negatively, but the courage really positively to stand against immense pressure from the world on this particular subject, social justice or whatever iteration of that.

00:13:37.260 um and so i i really do think that christians who love biblical truth want to preserve it are

00:13:46.020 looking to jordan peterson now some of them at least or they're they feel more in common with

00:13:50.800 jordan peterson than they do tim keller which is really sad to me because who who should know

00:13:56.120 more about the bible tim keller obviously but um peterson well and for the record i think

00:14:01.740 killer probably does know more about the bible right yeah but he's just he he hides things you

00:14:07.920 know that's right that's a scary thing i don't think it's ignorance on keller's part no i don't

00:14:11.780 think so either go ahead yeah no i i'm agreeing with you i don't think so either i think with

00:14:16.700 keller it's it's a motivation it's it's really an ethical issue with peterson and keller not so much

00:14:22.160 an issue of knowledge they they both um they they both have i mean keller's knowledge is superior

00:14:29.020 But I think Peterson has at least there's a character that he seems to have where he doesn't want to bend to just because the culture says something.

00:14:39.200 Now, on that note, we do see Peterson bending on some things.

00:14:42.220 So, you know, you see Peterson trying to as he and I don't know his motivation.

00:14:48.260 I can't completely. I don't.

00:14:51.100 But there's a sincerity that he exhibits when he's wrong.

00:14:56.020 when he's wrong he's very sincerely wrong about it and it would probably be easier to have a

00:15:01.480 discussion with Jordan Peterson when he's wrong than it might be with a Tim Keller who you don't

00:15:06.660 even know like what fortune cookie he's going to open and then the next thing he says and yeah I

00:15:13.080 think that yeah and in a nutshell it just seems like the big difference between someone like

00:15:16.780 Peterson and Keller is um Keller just it seems like it's more deception where Peterson it seems

00:15:21.740 like he's wrong but when he's wrong he's genuinely wrong and when he's right he's genuinely right

00:15:27.620 we sense that genuineness right and because one of the things that he regularly says is you know

00:15:31.700 i've been thinking about this for you know for 400 years you know you always say i think i've

00:15:36.640 been thinking right and when he says that like i believe him i believe like he's probably just sat

00:15:40.020 in a room for two weeks straight thinking about something you know but and then that's part of

00:15:43.660 his problem is he's he puts i think too much trust in his own you know mental faculties but he you

00:15:49.980 know I've been thinking about this I've been thinking but my point is to say that he's very

00:15:53.120 much in process and he also would be quick to say I haven't thought about that I hear I hear that

00:15:57.320 phrase often out of his haven't thought about that yet and so I I think that like Jordan Peterson so

00:16:02.200 one thing that you know if I was talking to him that I say you need to think about is you need

00:16:05.880 to think about the reality that that a society can either worship women or protect children

00:16:14.240 you need to think about um a society can either protect children or protect sodomy you need to

00:16:22.540 think about like that these things are um are are diametrically opposed so i i and and i honestly

00:16:29.440 want to give him the benefit of the doubt that he may not have yet connected those dots that like

00:16:35.340 okay i'm having this conversation with dave rubin um and and if this then that meaning that i i think

00:16:43.560 as long as america protects um same-sex marriage for instance um we are we are subjecting children

00:16:50.920 to abuse i think that that's a that's a one-to-one correlation i don't think that that's like some

00:16:56.840 you know intricate mosaic i think it's just one dot to the next dot that like if we're going to

00:17:01.880 put if we're going to legitimize same-sex marriage and it has all the benefits and all the protections

00:17:07.420 and like with adoption for instance yeah then you're going you're going to have harvested eggs

00:17:12.920 from, you know, from this guy's sperm to that woman's egg to that woman's womb to the, you

00:17:18.360 know, and what are you doing? 0.85

00:17:19.760 You're taking a child away from their mother, you know, so you're depriving the child of

00:17:24.780 that ordinary natural habitat that God created with a father and a mother.

00:17:31.440 And yeah, it's not good for the child, no matter how loving Dave Rubin might turn out

00:17:36.540 to be.

00:17:37.800 It's, yeah, it's selfish.

00:17:40.280 I think it is.

00:17:40.980 And that's the irony is he's talking about like, well, I don't want to be.

00:17:42.920 be selfish. And so I want to have kids and give my life for someone else. But you are being selfish.

00:17:47.520 You want to have kids on your terms, but the terms that you're stating are not the best terms

00:17:52.800 for the kids. They're just the best terms for you. And so I think connecting those dots,

00:17:57.760 but my point is to say that I think Peterson, I don't know, it's possible that he just really

00:18:03.000 hasn't gotten there. Whereas someone like Keller or the gospel, they should know better. So I find

00:18:08.540 myself much more angry and i guess i'm asking you because i i want to see like how much personal

00:18:13.260 bias i'm a sinner it could be personal bias how much personal bias is it that i like jordan peterson

00:18:18.420 just hasn't offended me nearly as much as the gospel coalition has over the last few years

00:18:22.200 because because jordan peterson didn't you know sell me out jordan peterson didn't stab me in the

00:18:27.360 back you know like i'm coming out of the acts 29 movement and you know i've got people who like

00:18:31.480 who left my church because they were reading the gospel coalition and the gospel coalition

00:18:35.620 they trusted as a higher credibility than their local pastor. And the gospel coalition said that

00:18:41.320 I wasn't winsome enough, you know, the gospel coalition, like they, they're the ones who are

00:18:45.480 coming out with the, you know, like, okay, rose overturned, you know, but we need to sympathize

00:18:50.080 with like, I mean, we've done this exercise a million times, but just replace that sin with

00:18:54.540 any other sin, right? Okay. Let's say that pedophilia was, you know, people were, were,

00:18:58.760 were raping kids and it was legal in our nation. And then that law gets overturned, right? And then

00:19:04.280 gospel coalition writes an article that says hey like this isn't a time for celebration this is a 0.99

00:19:09.540 time for sympathizing uh with pedophiles that can't rape kids anymore that's really hard on them 0.95

00:19:14.460 yeah like i mean that's insane and you're like oh that's an extreme example no no no because 0.98

00:19:20.320 the actual example we're talking about is murdering babies it's so it's not you know it's

00:19:25.340 not that and that's the gospel coalition and so it's just like because i've been battling that as

00:19:29.460 a local pastor right for so long i wonder and i'm genuinely asking is it am i just personally

00:19:37.640 so bothered by that that brand of christianity that i'm that i'm being more gracious towards

00:19:43.860 your jordan petersons your expectations aren't as high right because jordan peterson doesn't claim

00:19:50.520 the kinds of convictions that you believe whereas gospel coalition does so you're going to hold them

00:19:55.500 to a higher standard you're not expecting a converted man's thinking in jordan peterson

00:20:00.360 right so i think there's that does factor into it to some extent we have a different standard

00:20:05.440 perhaps we're going to measure him by and so when jordan peterson does something that's

00:20:09.320 even more bold and in favor of christian morality than the gospel coalition is willing to go

00:20:15.840 we we applaud and we're we're pleasantly surprised and we're thinking somebody finally said it you

00:20:21.460 know trump even did this sometimes where it's like well somebody finally said it right no one

00:20:26.220 seemed to have the courage do do any of us think trump's an orthodox believer no this is more his

00:20:32.100 moral lifestyle doesn't even reflect that but um but he was willing to have the courage to at least

00:20:37.840 say some true things when it was obvious and you don't see that courage with many of the members

00:20:43.440 of the big eva guild um i was talking to a friend of mine who's a pastor who's um uh at one time

00:20:49.900 was very influenced by Gospel Coalition, and has been very red-pilled on them, and has realized

00:20:56.140 kind of where they've gotten to today, just about them on this whole issue. And I wonder how many

00:21:02.700 people are like him that have really wanted to follow that winsome path, love Keller books,

00:21:07.800 and then when all these really big-ticket issues came up that conflicted completely diametrically

00:21:13.960 opposed to Christianity. And they saw the way that Gospel Coalition types kind of massage things

00:21:20.060 and just the fecklessness, the lack of stand. I wonder how many people are just like you, 0.69

00:21:25.500 Joel, and have turned away from them. And I think it's a bigger number than

00:21:29.580 we probably even realize. Yeah, no, I was thinking about this today. I thought,

00:21:33.660 I bet you half of the YouTube views for the Gospel Coalition are A.D. Robles re-watching

00:21:38.840 their materials so that he can do his next video i bet you i bet you it wasn't for you john and 80

00:21:45.120 robles and uh you know a bunch of other guys out there you know like who are who are i was thinking

00:21:50.300 the other day i was like i bet you gospel coalition will lose half of their views if it wasn't for

00:21:53.780 people watching their stuff to to you know to to refute them to refute it yeah so anyway yeah and

00:21:59.620 they have i think a staff of like somewhere around 30 people they have a lot of money coming in um

00:22:05.560 right um very like current family foundation gives them money there they have different

00:22:09.560 foundations and stuff so well if i was the democrat party dude yeah i would be absolutely

00:22:15.140 funding the gospel coalition like and i and i know that they have what was it when they when

00:22:19.220 they did the mlk 50 uh conference and that that was that the gospel coalition who put that on

00:22:25.220 they it was a combination of sponsors a gospel coalition was i believe was one of the sponsors

00:22:30.340 The ERLC was another sponsor.

00:22:32.560 Sounds right.

00:22:33.460 That sounds about right.

00:22:34.840 But didn't they get, they got, I think, a 50,000, because you talked about this, I think, with Judd Saul, but they got a $50,000 grant from what organization?

00:22:42.740 Oh, man, my mind's rusty on that.

00:22:44.440 But am I, I'm right about that, right?

00:22:46.040 They did get, I believe, yeah, and I wanted to say it was the Open Societies.

00:22:50.720 It wasn't them, though.

00:22:51.580 It was a different left-wing organization, and I can't, I think it had the word democracy in it.

00:22:58.560 it was a democrat group it was yeah it was a very pro-democrat group that gave them money for that

00:23:04.640 which totally you know like when i first heard that i was like oh my gosh you know like shock

00:23:08.920 slash anger but then i think like well of course like if i mean think about that like who are the

00:23:14.560 people that you know the democrat party their platform can has historically missed in our

00:23:19.360 nation in terms of their vote it's it's white evangelicals right and so but if you could if

00:23:25.220 you could put on your payroll, I mean, think about that. This is what politicians do all the

00:23:29.520 time. You have people to run campaigns. You have people to turn voters and to turn counties and to

00:23:35.560 raise awareness and to work with, with this group to, to, you know, to turn this minority group over

00:23:40.440 to, you know, red Republican or this like, well, okay, here's a huge group that Democrats have

00:23:44.960 been missing white evangelicals, Christians. And why wouldn't you put on your payroll? One of the

00:23:51.640 most effective organizations in turning white evangelicals progressive aka the gospel coalition

00:24:00.180 i mean they i mean they if they're not paid on a monthly basis from the democrat party they should

00:24:05.680 be the worker is is worthy of the wages i don't know if anybody has gotten more christians to

00:24:10.420 vote for democrats than the gospel coalition uh yeah i mean i don't i mean there's there's a

00:24:16.340 competition there you can christianity today i'm sure has done their fair share of convincing as

00:24:20.460 well and there's other organizations but uh i think you're onto something with that and um and

00:24:26.200 it just goes back to um this is the organization of people who once found jerry falwell's politics

00:24:33.220 attractive and would have been part of probably the moral majority and those kinds of things

00:24:37.080 that are now that you know fast forward their children are now in gospel coalition circles

00:24:43.640 and their ethics in the southern baptist convention are led by the erlc which can't even

00:24:48.620 tell you whether or not a woman is responsible if she pays it wants to have a doctor give her an

00:24:53.900 abortion right i mean it's it's moral insanity it's great but um and that's only one generation

00:25:00.560 really it really didn't take all that long for things to change that much so in in that sense 0.85

00:25:06.540 yeah i mean the gospel coalition they can't go too far left too quickly because everyone's going

00:25:10.700 to see that so it's been a move a slow move over time and when they get stalled um i've just

00:25:16.120 noticed uh for instance a few years ago there there were more aggressive articles i think on

00:25:20.800 um like i think there was a there was a gospel coalition article i remember that talked about

00:25:26.080 jesus kind of having like a body dysphoria almost because he was god and man right so there were

00:25:31.720 weird stuff like that coming out and i think that they paused a little they hit the brakes a little

00:25:37.220 on that because people were waking up to these things and they i mean this recent debate series

00:25:42.440 they've had i think has shown that they they realize they have a serious right flank that

00:25:47.560 they have to try to at least do something about so oh yeah the debates seem like completely like

00:25:53.580 just put together to appease that they say hey look right this position also exists within the

00:25:58.000 gospel coalition we we like these guys too and and we're just we're just giving a voice to both

00:26:02.580 sides you know right exactly like as if these are secondary issues but they were treating so many of

00:26:07.960 them like primary issues and they still do so it's it's very confusing but it the only way it

00:26:12.960 makes sense in my mind is that it's kind of a left-wing operation it is to try to over time

00:26:18.220 desensitize get the church get christians to move in this direction jordan peterson uh ben shapiro

00:26:24.180 the intellectual dark web folks they never really were in that they weren't trying to um take the

00:26:31.780 mantle of Francis Schaeffer, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, you know, any religious right type

00:26:39.600 group and say, that's our, those are our people and we're the leaders. They never did that. They

00:26:44.480 were always outsiders. And so we don't have the same expectation. And we, like you said,

00:26:50.340 you don't feel betrayed, I think. And there is just a common ground that we have. At least I

00:26:56.360 can have a conversation with them on truth. And they're not going to call me like a bigot right

00:27:01.580 away. They're not going to, that's not going to be an insinuation that I get from them as

00:27:08.080 they're so worried about my conspiracy theories or my Christian nationalism or my misogyny or

00:27:13.760 something, you know, that's the kind of thing that you get from the gospel coalition. And you can't

00:27:17.560 really, and we're speaking broadly, obviously, but I'm saying many of the authors there, you can't

00:27:22.360 have a conversation with them. And that's the way that we feel about leftists. You can't have a

00:27:26.600 conversation with them and today that's really the thing that's dividing people as it's like

00:27:32.080 really basic fundamental things now can we have a conversation is there truth can we can we like

00:27:36.860 come around and and this idea that there's objective truth and start like talking about it

00:27:42.320 or do we not even can we not even get off the ground right and i think i can get off the ground

00:27:46.540 with the jordan peterson at least that's the way it feels when you watch him right and you see him

00:27:51.740 He cares about truth. Even the thing he did with David Rubin, which I really kind of ripped apart because I think it was it was his ethics were nuts.

00:28:01.700 Right. It was terrible. But even as he's doing that, you see him trying.

00:28:07.140 That's why there's so much tension in his position, because he's desperately trying to go back to the rootedness of there is a male and female binary and they are significant and they're important.

00:28:17.480 And you, David Rubin, you're fine in what you're doing, but you've got to recognize that, David, and you better try to bring in some female, you know, influences, and you better have a freezer full of breast milk, and you better do all these other things to compensate for the fact that you're not a female.

00:28:34.660 Jordan Peterson had that in there.

00:28:36.220 Would you see the same thing from gospel coalition? If it was one of their, let's say it was one of these friendships, these not, not because marriage, right. Same sex marriage is wrong. But let's say it's one of these homosexual couple, but it's not really a couple. It's just these friends, you know, and like they, they would like get as close to the line as possible. And they're not recognizing these rooted, rooted issues in creation. It would be what's technically still allowable in the text of the Bible.

00:29:06.260 PCA, you know, obviously not as a whole, but Greg Johnson, the revoiced guys, like they

00:29:10.340 really went down that trail and yeah, no, you're right.

00:29:13.400 And I think as you were talking, I think that's part of it, of what it is.

00:29:16.100 It's like Jordan Peterson doesn't have the standard.

00:29:18.920 He's not born again.

00:29:20.560 He's not in submission to Christ.

00:29:22.260 He doesn't have a regenerate heart.

00:29:24.720 You know, he's searching for truth in a sense, even that we should qualify because, right?

00:29:30.040 Romans chapter three, no one seeks for God.

00:29:32.120 And if he's not regenerate, he's not seeking God and God is the truth.

00:29:35.300 the truth is not just a you know an arbitrary um concept but truth is in a very real sense a person

00:29:41.920 he has a name his name is jesus christ and if you're not seeking jesus you're not you know

00:29:45.680 so all those things being true that we both both you and i were calvinists we we agree on that

00:29:50.840 but with that because i think that's why we're that's why we we're not sitting here angry at

00:29:57.220 jordan peterson that's why we're sympathetic that's why because it because he because he is

00:30:01.360 blind and so i'm like well good lord like this this guy who is blind didn't jesus have something

00:30:08.160 to say about but because you claim to see right i like that's what he that's why he went after

00:30:13.860 the pharisees because they claimed to see because they should know better i mean he says nicodemus

00:30:17.880 you are a teacher of israel and you don't know these things and we look at that and we're like

00:30:23.520 well yeah but that's because jesus is bringing something brand new no he wasn't no jesus is

00:30:28.120 talking to him about ezekiel chapter 36 nicodemus knew these things nicodemus knew about being born

00:30:33.880 again he knew about a heart of stone being removed and the heart of flesh like and jesus expected him

00:30:39.220 to know it so it's not just this lofty spiritualized language he's like you're a teacher in israel

00:30:44.300 you should know these things and and and you don't you're dumbfounded and so i think that's

00:30:49.440 kind of that's the standard we have i guess we should say we have a double standard and we should

00:30:54.080 have a double standard i have one standard for the gospel coalition i have one standard for jordan

00:30:57.440 Peterson because we're talking about two different people. We're talking about a group that they're

00:31:03.000 not just Christian. We're talking about leaders in evangelical churches. We're talking about

00:31:06.480 elders. We're talking about the Bible gives us a standard for these people.

00:31:10.640 And that brings up a question I'll ask you, Joel. Do you think Jordan Peterson and maybe others,

00:31:15.340 because we've talked about the Daily Wire, you know, Michael Knowles and Ben Shapiro and some

00:31:19.580 of these guys that take very wrong positions on some things, but they also get some things right

00:31:24.300 That evangelical elites aren't getting right.

00:31:27.000 Do you think that God is raising up these figures, in a sense, as influential in conservative Christian circles to judge the leaders that are there?

00:31:38.740 I mean, God can use Balaam's donkey.

00:31:40.120 Do you think God is using these men? 0.99

00:31:42.940 Yes. 0.97

00:31:43.180 I think it's the same as Deborah, right?

00:31:45.060 So people always, you know, anytime I talk about patriarchy or I talk about, you know, male headship with elders and I would hold to a male diaconate and all these different things that I think are thoroughly biblical.

00:31:53.980 well, what about Deborah? And I would say, yeah, Deborah, for one, of course, Deborah is not the

00:32:00.640 norm. But even as the exception, what is God doing with that exception? Deborah is a gift to Israel

00:32:09.420 in terms of practice, what she practically accomplishes. But in terms of the divine 0.56

00:32:14.820 statement being made with Deborah, Deborah is an indictment of the men in Israel. Deborah,

00:32:21.220 is an, she is a judgment from God. And so absolutely, I think, you know, I think of like

00:32:26.760 first Corinthians, you know, like God confounds the wisdom of this world with those who are 0.86

00:32:32.580 foolish, right? Not many of you were wise. And of course, that's speaking to the church in Corinth 0.89

00:32:37.360 that are now regenerate, now converted. Not many of you were wise, you know, but God takes

00:32:42.320 these foolish things. So yeah, exactly. Balaam's donkey or Deborah or Gideon, or that's what God

00:32:48.840 does. He takes weak things. And yes, there is obviously a clear pattern of God doing that

00:32:56.460 with the church throughout the scripture, using his people that are weak to gain great victories.

00:33:03.960 But that's not the only way that God does it. We see God do the same thing with the Assyrians,

00:33:08.320 with the Babylonians. We see God use enemies, his enemies who are not his people, who are not 0.92

00:33:14.440 in covenant with him when his people are being disobedient and he uses other nations, even when

00:33:21.240 they're at their weakest and gives them a great victory, supernatural victory over his people as

00:33:27.660 an act of his judgment. And so, yeah, I think that absolutely that in God's common grace,

00:33:34.200 he is raising up and giving platform to some of these guys who are a benefit to the church that

00:33:43.540 has been obedient because God's not disciplining his children who aren't disobeying, not to say

00:33:48.380 that anyone's sinless, but I think God is particularly, he's disciplining the sector

00:33:53.740 of his church, which is, I think, a lot larger than I wish it was, that has been rebellious and

00:33:58.940 saying, oh, yeah, Big Eva, nobody listens to you anymore. Doesn't that hurt? And they're all

00:34:07.600 listening to Ben Shapiro. Like, they're all listening to a Jew who denies the divinity of 1.00

00:34:13.300 Christ. It's sad. And Big Eva would say, oh, well, see, that's just a sign that you right-wing 0.98

00:34:18.760 Christian nationalists, that you don't care about the divinity of Christ. No, when I listen to Ben

00:34:22.500 Shapiro, I'm not listening to him for theology proper. I'm not listening to him for the hypostatic

00:34:26.560 union. I'm listening to him because I have to go to a Jew to get some common sense because I can't 1.00

00:34:33.040 find it over here so it's yeah so i think it's an indictment on on left bobby scott at t4g did 0.96

00:34:42.000 exactly what you just said he brought up ben shapiro in front of everyone to basic and i don't

00:34:47.380 it might have been fault lines i'm not sure what book there was a book that was there i think being

00:34:52.400 sold and ben shapiro had endorsed it i believe it might have been fault lines anyway bobby scott

00:34:57.920 went off on that or you know this is someone who denies the divinity of christ and we're reading a

00:35:03.400 book that he recommended as if because because they love playing that guilt by association thing

00:35:07.720 and it might have been carl truman's book because ben shapiro oh maybe it was carl truman's always

00:35:12.420 like the rise and uh the rise and triumph of the modern self rise and fall yeah rise and try okay

00:35:17.360 rise and fall the rise and fall of the gospel close wait no that's that's ad robos that's

00:35:21.660 different yeah i actually just i i actually just listened to that book on audible uh i literally

00:35:27.300 just it was great and and carl truman actually i just had a conversation with him because he came

00:35:31.300 out here and and did a lecture um at one of the churches that we know and and the lecture was

00:35:38.360 great his principles are great that whole that that book is fantastic um yeah i think it's just

00:35:45.000 when you get into practical application when i when i asked him some questions of like okay so

00:35:49.640 what does this mean that's where i he's well he's that's where i'm like all right man come on the

00:35:55.140 greatest on his own college exactly exactly it's the practice but but if you want someone to

00:35:59.940 outline where do these ideas come from yeah and and what are the underlining heart issues of why

00:36:07.480 there's such this this need for finding identity within and self-actualization and a rejection of

00:36:14.660 he's fantastic on that right but yeah no i i enjoyed the book i thought it was good too and i

00:36:19.580 there's some things i'm chewing on right now there's a there's a there's a few kinks in the

00:36:23.840 armor that i'm trying to work out in my mind i don't have fully developed thoughts one of them

00:36:28.340 being that he doesn't really focus hardly on race at all and i'm like well that's kind of

00:36:32.320 significant today i mean it came out in 2020 why is that um the other thing i i thought too and

00:36:38.260 we're totally switching subjects should we do we'll go back we'll go back with this okay just

00:36:41.780 a bunny trail for a while rabbit trail go for it here um the other thing is you know he he really

00:36:46.100 does do a good job of showing okay here's freudian psychology we're fundamentally sexual

00:36:51.220 beings here's uh the romantics you got to find truth within here's the frankfurt school everything

00:36:56.360 is systemic oppression uh so he he traces these things the thing though i think that made his

00:37:02.740 study different than um the study i did is that carl truman sees these forces it seems to me and

00:37:08.720 i could be wrong i'm just but this is my sense after listening to the whole book as almost like

00:37:13.860 they're disconnected unrelated um they're related in the sense that they built on each other or they

00:37:18.740 they those the developments kind of um you know sequentially kind of brought about a state of

00:37:26.160 affairs today that we see and we can identify but i don't see he think he draws a strong connection

00:37:31.980 between them whereas i'm looking at all these things and i'm saying hold on all these things

00:37:36.080 have something in common every single one of these things is against christian civilization

00:37:40.760 right and they're trying to rip it down in various areas and it's not a mystery as to it's not like

00:37:46.800 random or that all these forces converge to create what we have today that no they all were

00:37:53.280 in cahoots in a sense and i know people are going to say i'm a conspiracy theorist but

00:37:56.800 um they're all against god essentially there's no conspiracy with that yeah right you're absolutely

00:38:03.280 right what it is it's it's pagan men who want to sin so so they are against the christian church

00:38:07.900 because the christian christian church is just like john the baptist saying to herod it is not

00:38:12.080 lawful for you to have her, right? So you've got sinners who want their sin, and then you've got

00:38:16.660 people saying you can't have it, right? And so we've got to get rid of those guys. We've got to

00:38:21.660 get rid of this institution. And there are multiple building blocks. There's the church,

00:38:27.020 but there's also fundamental truths that they hold dear. There's the family, right? The nuclear

00:38:31.420 family. There's patriarchy. There's distinctions of gender. There's all these different things

00:38:37.680 that are standing in our way. And I think like, I really think it is as simple as we want our sin

00:38:42.820 and someone is telling us we can't have it. And so then you, you come in with this, right? So,

00:38:47.780 so everything becomes a disease rather than a sin, right? So I'm, I'm, I have anxiety or I have,

00:38:55.200 you know, I have depression or I have like, everything is, is now diagnosed as some kind of,

00:39:00.200 and there's a pill for that and there's a pill for, you know, and it, but, but then it's not

00:39:03.380 just that so like there's the the sexual ethic of freud um but then it's like okay but man like

00:39:08.040 there's still some things standing in our way like capitalism so let's bring in the economic

00:39:11.980 component here's marx and it and it's like one by one between you know between freud um between uh

00:39:18.020 marks on the economic uh side of things between uh who's the the rife guy what what's his first

00:39:23.180 name oh yeah yeah yeah reef reef yeah um i i don't remember he was one of the poets uh but he like

00:39:30.940 he had a ton of romantics yeah um so anyways but it's all my point or this is what i was

00:39:36.360 gonna say darwin right so okay but but we still got this problem right we're trying to get rid

00:39:40.300 of the christian church and god and and this whole institution that says we can't have our sin

00:39:44.260 but it's really hard to get rid of god when we're sitting here in this universe with stars and a sun

00:39:51.120 and a planet and oxygen like how did this so we need somebody on the science side of things

00:39:56.200 to explain existence, physical materialism apart from God. And so that I think, I'm just saying

00:40:04.680 that to say, I agree with you 100%. I think it was one focus, which is I want my sin. And there's

00:40:08.980 something standing in the way, which is the Christian faith. So then I have to have a 1.00

00:40:12.960 counter worldview. But the Christian worldview is a robust worldview. It accounts for everything.

00:40:20.420 and so so there's they're trying to come up with a counter worldview that allows for sin

00:40:25.280 a counter worldview that allows for their idols um and and the christians keep poking at it right

00:40:31.040 so it's like we have this specifically but what about that oh here's darwin oh here's freud okay

00:40:35.580 and it took hundreds of years to concoct to make this thing called secularism or modernity and and

00:40:42.180 now it now it pales in comparison but it is a full orbed it's inconsistent but it is a full

00:40:47.560 orbed view to rival the christian world it's a religion for it's a religion exactly yeah no

00:40:52.540 and that's well stated i think um so you have i another way i think to put it is that you have

00:40:58.640 um an order a natural order that god has set um about and and he reveals this to us in his special

00:41:05.660 revelation but it exists in nature men are different than women right this is a there

00:41:10.480 are different nationalities different places people live with with um some some boundary of

00:41:16.460 some kind, whether that's a border or a natural border, whatever. There's something to the natural

00:41:22.780 order. There's something to the way God created humans and the way that they perpetuate themselves

00:41:27.940 that is supposed to kind of keep going after it's kind. And these different thinkers who have come

00:41:37.040 in are trying to rip down all these borders. Now, there's not a border between men and women. What

00:41:41.500 are you talking about? There's no border there. Oh, borders on sexual expression? No, we shouldn't

00:41:46.000 have any borders on that there shouldn't be any restrictions there and so they're trying to rip

00:41:50.040 down all these things um what truman doesn't get into as much too but um i mean you can even hear

00:41:57.420 it in the song imagine uh the ideas of nations themselves rip down that we don't want that we

00:42:03.900 want just a globalist utopia he doesn't really get into the globalism aspect which is a huge i think

00:42:08.840 in this and the blm is connected right to that uh to undermine um western european hegemony quote

00:42:15.460 unquote and and really uh western civilization so there's there's all these different things and

00:42:20.940 it's just it's what satan did it's it's going outside the boundaries god has created to make

00:42:26.920 my own rules to so that i will be god and it's mixing it's it's yeah you're right it's blurring

00:42:31.840 right and that's what god said to israel again and again you know with you not having two different

00:42:36.320 fabrics and so it was to because you were supposed to be consecrated unto the lord sanctified you

00:42:41.360 were supposed to be separate, you know, and like in covenant with God and no one can serve two

00:42:46.000 masters, right? So you're in covenant with God and it needs to be a faithful covenant. God keeps

00:42:50.660 faithful covenant. There needs to be not committing spiritual adultery. And so in all these, so

00:42:54.980 polygamy, right? That, you know, or polyamory or, you know, we didn't even, you know, so there's

00:43:00.060 the national eroding of national borders. But then you can talk about wealth, right? Well,

00:43:05.440 what is capitalism other than you get to keep your capital, right? Well, no, no, no, no. Like

00:43:11.440 we, no, it belongs to everybody, the redistribution of wealth and that we all just kind of are a part

00:43:17.420 of this global system and every, you know, so it's, it's the, it's, it's equality, but, but in

00:43:24.240 this quest of equality, it's equity. But in this quest towards equity, it's, it's the erosion of

00:43:31.360 personal ownership. So, so there's no boundaries with that, no fences, no, I mean, if they had the

00:43:37.200 utopia, there'd be, nobody would own anything. There would be no nations, there would be no bank

00:43:42.140 accounts, there would be no, and, you know, and the result of course, is that everybody would

00:43:46.280 starve and die, you know, but like, but that's, but that's what they, it's, you're, you're absolutely

00:43:50.980 right. It's just the erosion of any kind of boundary you can think of, whether it be male,

00:43:54.440 female boundary, you know, any, any of those kinds of things. But that's like, that's the way God set 0.90

00:43:58.620 up his world. In the very beginning of Genesis, God, it's like the world is without form and void

00:44:04.000 and the spirit is hovering above the waters. But then God, he says, let there be, he creates,

00:44:08.600 but then he separates. It's like God creates and then divides and then later fills, right? So it's

00:44:16.120 like it's skies and waters, the waters above and the waters below, it's light and dark. And then

00:44:22.580 God comes back and he fills. So the light is filled with the sun and then the lesser light

00:44:27.440 to the moon for the, for the night, you know, and the stars. And so God, you know, fills the

00:44:31.680 waters with fish and the birds, uh, the sky with birds. And so God fills, but the first thing he

00:44:36.320 does is he creates expanses. He creates regions and sets boundaries and divides one from the other.

00:44:44.000 And, and that's the very thing that I think the left constantly wants to get rid of.

00:44:49.340 So how's this for a segue from what you just said to get, get back to what you're talking about.

00:44:54.080 Yeah. Practically speaking, you said, you know, Truman's part of his issue is there he lacks or not him, but his writings lack the practicality.

00:45:03.140 So what do we do with this? Practically speaking, it's to reimplement these these boundaries that God has put in place to try to once again, live as much as we can in the order that he has laid down for us.

00:45:14.300 And that's something that I think the Daily Wire folks tend to agree with, whether they realize it or not.

00:45:21.080 they're trying to still uphold certain distinctions certain boundaries because they see that there's

00:45:26.920 something valuable to them and whether or not they base it simply on tradition or on natural

00:45:32.720 revelation of some kind right they see that there's there's a value to them and they want

00:45:37.940 to preserve them and that's part of their conservative uh now obviously that's changing

00:45:42.860 some things they're real they're getting rid of or they're they're soft peddling to some extent

00:45:47.060 But there's still this commitment to we want to try as best we can in this modern world to preserve true and beautiful and valuable things.

00:45:55.080 Whereas we don't get that same sense from, I think, well, let's just say I'll use some names, people like Tim Keller.

00:46:03.380 But, you know, it's also people like Jonathan Lehman or Joe Carter or the list goes on from TGC who are just almost Jonathan Lehman being nine marks.

00:46:13.340 But nine marks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think I thought he had written for Gospel Cool.

00:46:16.800 But so guys who are and I could be wrong, maybe maybe it's just nine marks, but I'm thinking of people that are very focused on cultural capital and how they're constantly thinking of their relationship or the church's relationship to the state and to the court of public opinion.

00:46:39.980 and how do we get the church off how do we show i mean uh carl truman even actually to use him in

00:46:45.800 his example he's so many right observations in that book but he wrote this article about pride

00:46:50.240 month where he said so many good true things about we need we can't cave to the lgbt mob but 0.83

00:46:55.700 in the same breath he had to say and taking columbus down and confederate statues down that 0.96

00:47:01.060 was a good thing and and we need to fight the gay flag just as much as we fought those symbols and 0.56

00:47:05.980 And it's like, what does that have to do? 0.93

00:47:09.140 Because what is it?

00:47:10.080 What's motivating that?

00:47:11.000 There's this, you have to try somehow to make sure that the culture finds us favorable.

00:47:18.880 Right.

00:47:19.000 And there's this fear that we're going to be judged by them.

00:47:21.700 I don't think Daily Wire has that fear as much.

00:47:23.520 I just don't.

00:47:24.140 I don't see it at least.

00:47:25.220 And maybe some of those guys do, but it's not as much as some of the people I just mentioned.

00:47:29.880 Yeah.

00:47:30.180 No, I think you're right.

00:47:31.340 And I think some of them, if they do, it's probably new.

00:47:35.320 and and what i mean by that is um like jordan peterson the reason why he launched into the

00:47:40.660 stratosphere is because he didn't care what people thought exactly that guy was willing

00:47:44.100 to be hated by everyone everyone now but here's the thing though people change you know so you

00:47:51.940 know i can't i can't speak for what the daily wire will always be um there's already plenty

00:47:57.920 of compromises and things that i don't i personally don't like as a christian um but

00:48:01.980 But my point is, with someone like Jordan Peterson or someone like Ben Shapiro, yeah,

00:48:09.040 I think at least in general, there is less susceptibility to the fear of man than the

00:48:15.640 gospel coalition because these guys became the superstars that they are by not giving

00:48:24.220 a single care about what people thought.

00:48:27.440 Like Jordan Peterson in that interview where he's just like, no, that's not what I'm saying.

00:48:30.900 No, I don't care what you think.

00:48:31.980 No, I don't, you know, and just like going back and forth, um, Ben Shapiro, like his

00:48:35.720 old videos back in the day.

00:48:37.020 I mean, like a lot of these guys, they, they, they didn't become, um, big from, by just

00:48:41.920 being talking heads.

00:48:42.900 They became talking heads and got that opportunity because they were, they were on the streets

00:48:47.340 and, and, you know, like, uh, whether it be like someone like, uh, I think it's Ben Crowder

00:48:52.340 is his name, but the change my mind or, or Steven Crowder, yeah, louder with Crowder

00:48:56.680 and, or, or Shapiro and, and some of him like on the street back and forth and these kinds

00:49:01.380 of things that's where and and and then all of a sudden you know they became very popular because

00:49:07.280 it turns out there was um there's a lot of people who still haven't lost their minds there there is

00:49:11.300 still some sanity in america and so but that's like gospel coalition seems to be like wherever

00:49:17.220 wherever whatever is already known whatever is tested tried and true so whatever we know the

00:49:23.700 the culture likes and whatever they think that's where gospel coalition will play to whereas whereas

00:49:29.300 there's other guys who are like, well, I'm just going to play to this because it actually is my

00:49:33.000 conviction. Hell or high water, whether anybody agrees or not. And I think that that's commendable.

00:49:38.040 And I think that's why we find Christians with spines saying, yeah, I appreciate Jordan Peterson, 0.99

00:49:46.180 what he's doing for what it is. It's not Christian, but for what it is, I appreciate that a lot more

00:49:51.260 than I appreciate these slimy guys who have just been sucking up to leftists for the last 15 years 0.62

00:49:58.780 yeah that's just that's not commendable i'm not impressed by that we are we yearn right now for

00:50:04.320 a confrontative uh prophetic voice in a sense uh and wartime calls for a different leader than

00:50:10.560 peacetime so you can't see the gospel coalition running an article i can't see it at least

00:50:16.660 that will call the prophets of bail names mock them talk about their god being on the toilet i

00:50:24.340 mean i just can't see it ever happening it's going to be an article that's going to convince us that

00:50:29.920 the prophets of baal are the mission field and we really got to make sure that we're um catering to

00:50:36.500 them or or at least being winsome or somehow appealing to them so that they'll like us and

00:50:43.600 someone needs to review elijah because he's right he's been exactly lately but stephen crowder who

00:50:50.500 and i'm not saying he's a christian and i'm not saying um he's appropriate i think his show is

00:50:55.740 crass i don't really listen to it but i've seen some of the clips obviously i've seen the change

00:51:00.020 my mind yeah yeah i've seen some of those clips he is willing to do that like he's willing to do

00:51:04.140 at least a version of that where he's going to mock the prophets of bail like he'll just make

00:51:08.120 fun of them and i think we're so desperate for that so here's a question for you for christians

00:51:14.080 i mean you're a pastor you have people going to your church they're probably asking you who do

00:51:17.720 I listen to, when it comes to politics, okay, specifically, so we're trying to steward our

00:51:22.760 vote well, and whatever other political involvement we might have, we're trying to do it in an

00:51:27.680 informed manner. I mean, who do you tell them to go to? And if they do go to the Daily Wire,

00:51:33.420 and they're trying, they realize the errors that are there, but they at the same time,

00:51:38.420 do you think they get better information there? Do you think that's an alternative that's much

00:51:43.440 preferable to, I don't even know, Christianity Today, for instance?

00:51:47.220 Yeah. Yeah. If Christians go to Christianity Today, or if they go to the Gospel Coalition,

00:51:51.420 or they go to the ERLC, if Christians do that, babies get murdered. It's a one-to-one 0.99

00:51:57.880 correlation. It really is that simple. If you take their advice, because that's the thing,

00:52:02.720 if it walks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, then at some point, we got to just call it

00:52:07.200 a duck, right? There's no way, there's no way, not a snowflake's chance in hell that the majority

00:52:15.560 of the staff of the Gospel Coalition didn't vote for Biden in 2020. There's no way, because that's

00:52:21.280 always who they're sucking up to, and they're always punching down on every conservative.

00:52:28.840 And you can't look at that again and again and again and again. And I think that's like, 0.50

00:52:33.220 if you pressed right if it was offline and it wasn't a public forum it's not a panel and it's

00:52:38.340 just you and somebody with the gospel coalition sitting down and having a conversation and say

00:52:42.460 but dude like abortion like dude sodomy dude you know what i mean like i think they say yeah well

00:52:50.960 yeah yeah i mean you're right i i you know i i don't i don't vote for biden and it's like

00:52:55.520 okay but you know everybody reading your articles and listening to your pocket they they think that

00:53:00.160 you do they think you do how would they think you don't and like like if i you know if i had a

00:53:06.280 bracelet that said you know like ww you know td what what would tim do what what would you know

00:53:11.320 keller do um like and and i'm wearing that bracelet and trying to channel my inner tim

00:53:16.520 keller as i go into the voting booth who am i voting for donald trump or joe biden straight up

00:53:20.620 like so yeah so um if the if my options are if those are my only options is the daily wire versus

00:53:27.060 the, you know, Christianity today, then yeah, Daily Wire, because, because are they going to

00:53:32.900 learn about Jesus? No. They're not going to it for that. That's right. But are they,

00:53:38.320 are they going to, is that going to influence them in, if we're merely talking about the realm

00:53:42.520 of their vote, right? Because that's the way the question was presented. Yeah, they're going to

00:53:47.060 vote better by listening to Matt Walsh than listening to Jonathan Lehman. And, and, and

00:53:53.820 that's sad. I'm not happy about that. I think, and this is what's so frustrating is part of the

00:54:00.040 problem is we have too many experts and not enough generalists. I think we, and we have too many,

00:54:05.260 you know, pundits and things like, you know, like these kinds of ministries are great, what we're

00:54:09.580 doing, but this is why we need pastors because pastors should be, and it's a tall task and I

00:54:14.320 struggle with it daily, but pastors should be generalist, meaning that a pastor should be able

00:54:19.260 to tell you about the hypostatic union and tell you a little, at least a little something

00:54:24.780 about a Christian ethic in the realm of economics and how that applies to your civil, your civil

00:54:31.640 responsibilities as a citizen in the next voting election.

00:54:35.560 You know, like, whereas we have to, when it comes to the public forum and podcasting

00:54:43.060 and documentaries and news, you know, source it like it's, it's all these experts. And for one,

00:54:49.780 the experts keep failing us. And, and two, I've just, I've just realized like, I just don't think

00:54:55.120 we need so many experts. I think we need more. I think we need more generalists. And I think

00:54:59.740 pastors especially should strive to be generalists that can say, this is the word of God. And it has

00:55:06.100 application here, here, here, here, and here. And this is how to be consistent to not parent one

00:55:12.700 way and vote another that's that's completely i know i know a lot of people who like the gospel

00:55:18.860 coalition and uh and they are wonderful parents and and and their theology and parenting um is

00:55:27.580 completely different than their theology with politics and they don't see that that gaping

00:55:33.200 that's interesting you know what i mean they just it's it's just all it's all severed it's all an

00:55:39.120 expert for this, an expert for that. Whereas it's just like, yeah, we just need a generalist to be

00:55:43.600 able to say, no, no, the Bible applies to all of it. If it's this here, if it's God's Word here,

00:55:49.100 it's God's Word there, and God's Word there, and God's Word there. So, yeah, I'd pick the Daily

00:55:54.820 Wire over the Gospel Coalition or Christianity Today for voting. But if we could just pick

00:55:59.660 anybody, then I'd send guys to listen to you. I'd send guys to listen to Doug Wilson, Jared Longshore,

00:56:07.320 um tom askell you know like those guys address these kind of things not as often as i would

00:56:13.920 like um but they do they talk about paul yeah and there are some christians in in that sphere

00:56:20.140 more um uh oh god i'm trying i'm trying to think of um there's a his name is escaping me

00:56:27.240 steve dace dace i believe yeah he's a christian yeah um i mean you have cross politic right that's

00:56:33.740 show that yeah so cross politic is great cross politics here's the only thing so like gabe

00:56:37.860 gabriel wrench is on our board with the right response love cross politic love toby love those

00:56:41.560 guys it's it's sometimes tough when you have like this is a practical thing but when you got three

00:56:45.940 guys on a show and especially when the mantra is like we're rowdy christians and they and they live

00:56:50.280 it you know and they're they're like three really good friends and so there's so much banter and

00:56:55.240 laughing and those kind of that sometimes i'm like i'm listening and i'm like earnestly listening

00:56:59.480 and i i can't quite tell like what what did they say what was yeah like i missed that but cross

00:57:05.360 politic in terms of their doctrine and those kinds of i think cross politics is fantastic and i like

00:57:09.040 that you mentioned steve day so i forgot him but uh he he came on our show um a few weeks back or

00:57:14.380 a month back and and honestly i like i started listening to him a little bit a couple guys

00:57:19.580 turned me on to him and then i invited him on the show and he was gracious enough to come on

00:57:22.620 and i would say that like okay yeah he's he's not like this i i don't think he's memorized calvin's

00:57:28.500 institutes you know he's not reformed he's not you know like he's not as robust of the christian

00:57:33.280 theologian as you know but um i i really do believe that he's born again i think he's a

00:57:39.060 i don't think that he's um just a a conservative you know political pundit i think steve steve

00:57:46.360 dace i think is a legitimate follower of jesus and i was actually pleasantly surprised in the

00:57:51.680 conversation that i had with him um he's he's a conviction about scripture so he's a he's a great

00:57:58.480 source yeah he and i mean glenn beck's a christian right i'm just kidding right he's someone yeah so

00:58:05.180 i mean there are some voices and there needs to be more i mean if anything i would hope christians

00:58:09.780 who are interested in that uh in politics can get involved in some of these things uh because

00:58:14.760 Isn't it weird that some of the top conservative talk show hosts are Catholic, Mormon, Jewish, I'm thinking like Mark Levin, Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck, or they're just kind of secular.

00:58:28.260 It's just weird because Christians are the largest voting bloc for the Republican Party or one of them.

00:58:34.820 And it's just like we don't have a lot of representation in that. 0.61

00:58:37.800 And I wonder if that's pietism or there's something I think it is that's that's holding Christians from going in that direction. 0.72

00:58:43.540 But we need more. And that's if anything, this is if you're frustrated that Jordan Peterson is with Dave Rubin talking about freezers full of breast milk.

00:58:53.800 And if you're frustrated that Tim Keller can't figure out a biblical ethic, if it was right in front of them, then maybe you're the person that needs to go out there, you know, learn these things and whatever hoops you got to jump through.

00:59:07.440 maybe need to go to school but get the education and then uh go out there and start making a

00:59:12.460 difference right there no you're right i'm glad you need more options i'm glad you mentioned that

00:59:16.920 because i think there's a huge yeah there's there's just a huge gaping hole right now for

00:59:23.140 a thoroughly reformed orthodox christian who loves the lord who sees scripture as the final authority

00:59:30.180 uh to speak to politics because because right now it's like our options are um steve steve day said 0.93

00:59:36.960 it like this he was like our options are you can get stabbed in the face uh by nancy pelosi or you

00:59:41.480 can get stabbed in the back by uh chuck or uh mitch mcconnell you know stabbing in the back 0.54

00:59:46.660 you know it's like like those are your only options it'd be nice to have an option of someone 0.73

00:59:50.400 who doesn't stab you in the face or the back you know like i think there's like three guys made

00:59:55.400 maybe in the senate that i kind of trust right like maybe josh hawley josh hawley would be one

01:00:01.920 for me yeah i'm trying to think who else uh there's there's probably like three i could

01:00:05.780 probably come up with like three but ted cruz is okay but i like i was gonna ted cruz i'm on the

01:00:09.880 fence on but yeah i'm like i'm like i kind of like ted cruz yeah yeah i mean he and he's your

01:00:13.760 representative there in texas right yeah um we have nothing in new york i can't i mean i i just

01:00:19.000 moved from the frying pan to the fryer here right yeah um you know what about blake uh blake masters

01:00:24.640 is he running or is he like do you know who i'm talking about blake masters no i can't remember

01:00:30.620 okay never mind let's not go there so so there's a point in case right there we need someone who

01:00:36.400 knows the Lord but also knows politics you know he's running though I don't know who he is but

01:00:40.820 he is running yeah Colorado I think so he's I've heard a few things from him and I think he's pretty

01:00:46.180 solid he's a far right political candidate says Wikipedia that's what you got to look for so far

01:00:50.900 far just so far I can't even see him he's exactly if a guy's far right then then you can be sure

01:00:56.180 that he's probably a mediocre christian far far right if if in political terms if somebody's far

01:01:04.580 right then i can i can usually bet that they're about seven or eight clicks left from me what

01:01:11.120 would we be like literally like if we ran for office i don't have words they don't have words

01:01:16.100 to describe how far right they're they probably just heads just explode when they start hearing

01:01:22.780 the positions yeah they're there they didn't know that those positions they thought 100 years ago

01:01:27.360 those positions died off and um they're just shocked that they survived the evolutionary

01:01:32.620 process but history is a big factor too and and you're good with that john uh like you know but

01:01:38.440 just i think that's another thing is like uh we you know the the victor gets to write the history

01:01:43.140 books and uh and thinking about people's presuppositions in history i've been listening

01:01:47.460 listening lately to uh i believe his name steve wilkins and uh him just talking about the founding

01:01:53.360 of america and just you know like so this is something he said that i thought was so profound

01:01:57.240 but he just said um you know the dark ages you know those times when uh when people believed

01:02:02.380 in transcendent truth and that god created the world and then the enlightenment you know when

01:02:08.620 people turned to secularism and reason and rebelled against god's like i mean think about

01:02:14.060 even the labels and that's not to say there wasn't anything dark about the dark ages and

01:02:18.220 that's not to say that there wasn't anything positive about the enlightenment but in general

01:02:22.000 that's how history gets written is um uh submission to god bad dark uh rejection of god

01:02:29.540 happy no the term dark ages is a complete pejorative and i don't even use it i mean

01:02:35.120 unless i'm joking what do you just say middle ages or i say middle ages yeah that's what i'm

01:02:38.980 starting to dark ages yeah it's a total um knock against that what came before the enlightenment

01:02:46.340 is somehow barbaric and and um and it you know you even see it getting into our pop culture you

01:02:52.560 like watch monty python or something i mean it's just guys slinging mud right that's the dark ages

01:02:57.040 so right um and i mean and there were things that obviously there has been advanced have been some

01:03:02.580 advances made that there's certain things about diseases we know now and stuff but it is it is a

01:03:07.720 character. And I was talking to someone actually earlier today about the January 6th issue and

01:03:14.740 how I am seeing history rewritten in front of my very eyes, something that I lived. I wasn't

01:03:22.580 in the Capitol, but I was there that day for the rally. And I am seeing what I saw completely

01:03:28.260 discounted, a different narrative put in its place, motivations attributed to myself and

01:03:36.200 those of us who went and it's just it's amazing and i think if they can do that with something

01:03:40.360 that happened two years ago why can't they do it with something that happened 100 300 500 years ago

01:03:45.240 and and most of our witch trials is another example as i've been studying the salem witch

01:03:50.440 trials and go ahead sorry but you're right that's another good example most of the things that we

01:03:55.200 learn about are um let's just say the the aspects or the facts involved that can forward some kind

01:04:04.860 of a case against the current political enemies are those are the things that are emphasized

01:04:09.980 right and things that are left out tend to be the things that would not be so convenient for

01:04:15.940 that narrative and I've seen this in so many different things and I wonder sometimes to what

01:04:22.180 extent are there things that even my as someone who's studied you know history of American history

01:04:28.700 at least how many things am I believing incorrectly I'm sure there's things I'm believing right that

01:04:33.860 I just haven't looked into enough into the primary source material, which is one of the

01:04:38.500 reasons I tell people, if you're going to study history, they say, what book should I read? I

01:04:42.260 understand there's a place for secondary sources. I've written some books. I think there's a good

01:04:46.060 place for that. I'm really big on sources, though. And I think if you can try to go back,

01:04:51.000 try to read original speeches. You want to know what happened during the Civil War? Why don't

01:04:54.780 you read Lincoln's first inaugural address? Why don't you read Jefferson Davis's farewell address?

01:04:59.620 Why don't you, you know, there's actual documents you can read rather than going to some leftist historian who's going to tell you a retelling of that particular event or any event.

01:05:11.880 Right.

01:05:12.680 So, you're right.

01:05:13.980 It's important, I think.

01:05:16.340 And it takes more work, and I understand that.

01:05:18.180 But as Christians, we don't need to be lazy.

01:05:20.780 We don't have to be like the world.

01:05:23.480 I think the world is after entertainment, after, I mean, Carl Truman described in Rise and Fall, the modern self.

01:05:29.220 I mean, after our pleasures, and I think we can build something.

01:05:33.340 That's a positive Christian vision.

01:05:35.120 We need, we should have 10 Christian options for talk radio, political.

01:05:39.440 We should have more than that, really. 0.55

01:05:40.800 But we can have Christian Jordan Petersons out there who are unapologetic about what the Bible teaches.

01:05:48.660 And one day, if God would be so gracious, maybe Jordan Peterson would be a Christian Jordan Peterson and we can have him too.

01:05:54.300 He keeps saying stuff that make me think he's getting there.

01:05:56.520 I know.

01:05:57.120 He does something to ruin it.

01:05:58.340 He's not there yet.

01:05:59.700 He's not, no.

01:06:00.260 We can't call him a brother yet, but I pray that the Lord does that.

01:06:04.100 Yeah, pray for those guys too, yeah.

01:06:05.420 Absolutely.

01:06:06.280 But no, you're right.

01:06:07.080 And everything you were just saying, I think, goes back to my point about generalist, is

01:06:10.580 that in order to have, I think what we have right now is we see that, okay, we had institutions,

01:06:16.240 the institutions got infiltrated, history and all these things got rewritten, bad policy.

01:06:21.720 And so, it's now, it's like, we really do have to, maybe some of the institutions can

01:06:27.420 be recaptured. Some of them will just have to build parallel Christian economies and these 0.74

01:06:33.260 different things. And so, we're going to have to do a lot of building. And with that, what I'm

01:06:38.240 realizing more and more is if we're going to do this and we're going to do it right and we're

01:06:42.760 going to do it faithfully and it's going to last, there's just, we're going to have to work. And in

01:06:48.060 that work, I mean like the work of study. I've just realized, man, like there's so many things

01:06:54.360 that I haven't personally researched

01:06:55.780 because I gave the benefit of the doubt

01:06:58.480 to the gatekeepers in even in the church,

01:07:03.860 in government, in academia, in medicine, right?

01:07:09.540 Like, and now my wife and I, we're like,

01:07:11.080 and it helps that my wife is an RN,

01:07:12.780 but it's like, man, we're having to,

01:07:13.980 like every single vaccine we're reading about,

01:07:18.600 you know, whereas before we're like,

01:07:19.900 yeah, our kids are gonna get vaccines.

01:07:21.460 We don't wear tinfoil hats.

01:07:22.600 We're not crazy. 0.69

01:07:23.120 and now it's like oh sorry i apologize i gotta go to all my crunchy friends and apologize to them 0.85

01:07:30.640 because you know like you know turns out i was maybe the idiot you know and now they're like 0.80

01:07:36.100 it's not just the covid vaccine of course i'm not going to give my two-year-old a covid vaccine but 0.97

01:07:39.620 but now there are other things where we're saying i don't think we're going to do that

01:07:43.560 i don't i don't think our kid and and i'm not and i'm not saying some of these things there's

01:07:47.180 room to disagree but my point is the principle is there's so much we we've taken for granted

01:07:52.100 in every field of study but but every single coalition will shame you into not following

01:07:59.240 the experts whereas daily wire is going to try to give you information that will help your family

01:08:03.840 make it daily why that's what it comes down to daily wire questions the experts and gospel

01:08:08.520 coalition uh shames you for not listening to francis collins and david french and that that's

01:08:13.600 what it comes down to is is i've got on one hand i've got the christians telling me um we really

01:08:19.260 should submit to these people respect these people and trust these people and any pushback

01:08:24.400 any questioning even is really just uh that's rebellious you know and and that's you know and

01:08:30.620 then i've got these guys over here saying uh no question everything and these guys keep getting

01:08:36.360 proved in the providence of god right again and again and again so now i'm like okay like i'm not

01:08:43.000 saying these guys are right about Jesus. They're wrong about Jesus, but they are right about

01:08:49.300 questioning all of our major institutions, including the evangelical church. So I'm going 0.98

01:08:55.520 to question these things, but I can't just criticize. I've got to build an alternative.

01:08:59.500 I got to build something. That's what conservatives always do. We boycott, we bemoan, we complain,

01:09:03.580 but we need to build something. But then I get to the work of building and I realize,

01:09:07.160 I don't know how to do, it's like you with your house right now. It's like, all right,

01:09:10.200 So this is what I envision.

01:09:11.540 We need a house.

01:09:12.700 And then I'm sure like on a weekly basis, you come and it's like, oh, so there's this

01:09:16.300 other thing that has to be done for the house that I don't know how to do.

01:09:19.680 And so I have to learn this now.

01:09:21.280 I have, oh, plumbing.

01:09:22.820 I forgot about that.

01:09:23.520 That's a thing.

01:09:24.180 We got to, you know, and so it's, and that's what I'm realizing is it's like, okay, we

01:09:28.440 can't trust institutions.

01:09:29.820 This narrative is false.

01:09:31.320 There's another narrative that's true.

01:09:32.800 But for me to get this right, to build an alternative that's actually true so that I'm

01:09:38.300 not inadvertently guilty the very same thing i'm criticizing these other guys of um i'm i i cannot

01:09:44.360 be lazy and i can't just take somebody else's word for it i've got to do what you're saying

01:09:48.400 in the realm of history i've got to go to original sources and i've got to find out

01:09:51.660 what was george washington really a deist right because i can now see for the first time in my

01:09:57.340 life oh would there perhaps be an angle or a motivation for people today to want to teach

01:10:03.840 my kids that george washington was a deist and and not you know and so and and and i think there's

01:10:09.880 a debate to be had there and so but how am i going to find out well i'm going to listen to

01:10:13.660 steve wilkins but i'm probably also going to have to read george washington you know yeah and so it

01:10:18.560 would benefit you yeah so in all these things my point is that like you we're gonna if we're gonna

01:10:23.980 do things well we're gonna have to build alternatives and we can't build alternatives

01:10:28.280 if we don't know how to do electric work and plumbing and framing and we're gonna have to

01:10:33.020 So what you're getting at, and I think it's very similar to, so it struck a thought in me that if you go to ancient philosophy, right, if you go to like Plato and Aristotle, some of the Greco-Roman philosophers, if you go to also the ancient Hebrew sources, like biblical sources, if you go to Solomon, you're going to find there's a commonality in this sense.

01:11:00.420 There's, there's so much different between them ethically and just their concepts of God and everything. But the thing that I see that's similar, that's so much different than modernity is they both believed in a divine order. Both sets of philosophers believe, well, there is something, there is something higher than us that's created this place, or there's, there's, there's a place that we fit into it somehow.

01:11:23.340 and um so one of the things uh there's there's a book um called ideas have consequences i don't

01:11:30.360 know if you've read that by richard weaver it's i haven't read it but i've heard it sprawl used

01:11:34.180 to reference it all the all the time oh it's a really you should probably read it some some

01:11:38.140 time it's a really an interesting book um but the argument in the book is that as place basically as

01:11:45.320 as um plato's the slackening hand of plato and then this world of forms that there's uh there's

01:11:51.580 divine order, that there's, you know, there's these forms to shoot for, to strive for, these

01:11:56.920 principles that tie together the particulars. As that kind of faded, and a philosophy called

01:12:06.520 nominalism kind of gained sway, it gave rise to a number of things, one of them being specialization

01:12:12.660 that there's, and in the Industrial Revolution, of course, made this also possible. But we went

01:12:18.080 from the ideal man kind of being the philosopher king to the gentleman to now the specialist the

01:12:23.620 person whose field of research is so narrow they can't tell you anything about i mean they know

01:12:29.600 everything there is to know about you know some really i mean listen to dissertation topics when

01:12:34.760 you go to a graduation some of these things are so ridiculous you're like you studied what you

01:12:39.040 studied the habits of millennials from you know this year to that year and how they gave to first 0.85

01:12:44.160 Baptist church and what in the world? But, you know, they know everything there is to know about

01:12:49.140 that, but they just don't know the principles that govern everything. And that used to be the

01:12:55.420 thing that was biblically. I mean, that's what Proverbs is about. It's finding these universal

01:13:01.400 principles. There are universals. God has laid them down. They apply to every field, whether

01:13:06.000 it's history or science or art, or there's certain things that are just true. And I think as

01:13:13.560 Christians, that's what you're saying. I think you're saying that's what Christians need is to

01:13:20.180 be generalists, where we understand how the universe works, because we know the creator

01:13:24.700 of the universe and the law he's laid down. And so, it doesn't matter what field we're talking

01:13:28.920 about. Fauci comes up with something. I don't know much about medicine, but I do know Jesus,

01:13:33.780 and I do know the way he laid the, or governs the universe. And I have, I can think for myself,

01:13:39.460 I can go and I can research this knowing the principles I know and figure it out, even though I'm not an expert.

01:13:46.060 Independent thought.

01:13:48.140 And Peterson and those guys, they might be the Greco philosophers of today, but they have a, whether they believe in the same God we believe in, they do believe there is a divine order of sorts.

01:14:00.480 And that's important.

01:14:01.340 That's significant.

01:14:02.980 And I don't see that coming from these other Christian elite sources.

01:14:07.120 They don't seem to. 0.93

01:14:08.600 they claim a divine order and they claim him by name but they live as though there is no divine

01:14:14.660 order it doesn't really matter yeah it's just a blank canvas for politics exactly and you can do

01:14:19.560 whatever you want that you can just but you actually can't you have to you have to vote for

01:14:25.080 a democrat that's that's what you have to do so no you're absolutely right and i think you know by

01:14:30.040 god's grace i think that that the veil is lifting and i think guys like you guys like me i think

01:14:35.320 that our generation, especially, um, I think more, more so than boomers. Um, there's some

01:14:41.940 faithful boomers, praise God for them. But I think that our generation, your young Gen X, 0.82

01:14:47.300 you know, old millennials, I think are really starting to see, okay, we're starting to see

01:14:51.220 the problem and we're starting to see the solution. But I also feel like grieved in a sense, 0.98

01:14:55.900 but also excited. I feel grieved in the sense that I feel like it's too late for me, even though I'm

01:14:59.560 young, like I'm going to do this work. I'm not going to, you know, I'm not going to phone it

01:15:02.360 in. I'm not going to be lazy. I'm not using this as an excuse, but I'm 36 years old. And I think

01:15:07.900 I'm like, yeah, I was educated in public school. There's a certain level of dumbness that comes 0.98

01:15:13.820 with that education that I'm just never going to be able to shake. I went to public school. I'm 0.94

01:15:17.840 dumb. There's nothing you can do about that. But by God's grace, I'm just smart enough. I'm in the 0.99

01:15:24.560 dumb category, but I'm the smartest of the dumbs that I won't put my kids in public school. 0.99

01:15:30.040 um and a lot of what you're describing is like a classical christian education um learning these 0.99

01:15:36.700 you know what i mean so so when i think about like i get excited you know and some of this may

01:15:40.840 be my post-millennial eschatology but i get excited thinking about like the next generation

01:15:45.300 our i think our kids if god would be so gracious to to keep them and sustain them and save them

01:15:52.380 and if we would be faithful as parents um i think our kids are gonna do incredible things in the

01:15:58.260 next 20 30 years as as they you know because i feel like we're coming into this in adulthood but

01:16:04.200 we could set them up from day one where it's just like all this is just normal they're like yeah dad

01:16:11.140 like you didn't know that about george washington and then they'd like say something to me in latin

01:16:15.200 and then i tell them stop shaming stop shaming your father your crowd no but you know like and

01:16:21.360 i like i i think that that's uh i i really think that you know people are leaving public schools

01:16:26.080 homeschooling is on the rise classic i i think there's a shift right now and i think we're going

01:16:30.400 to do a lot of good work by god's grace but i think our kids um i think they're gonna they're

01:16:35.520 gonna inherit the land i think they're gonna take over john yeah i see what you're saying and i was

01:16:39.520 actually at a political conference a few weeks ago and i was talking to a guy who's a catholic

01:16:43.380 professor um and he made an option now this is catholics this isn't uh evangelical christians

01:16:49.280 he made an observation that i thought was fascinating and i'm assuming it's across the

01:16:53.620 word in Christiandom. He said, he's noticed the last few years, the crop of students coming in,

01:17:00.820 he said, it used to be that, you know, the parents are making them go to school, they're,

01:17:04.400 they're not very serious about their faith. So, the last few years, he goes, yeah, I mean,

01:17:09.540 the numbers have gone down a little bit as far as like, how many students are coming to a Catholic

01:17:15.860 institute, traditional Catholic school, he goes, but the ones who are coming, he goes, they're

01:17:20.200 different they believe it and and obviously i i don't believe in catholicism um but i i think

01:17:27.600 there's something in the water broadly about um in christian dumb and in in just traditional um

01:17:35.100 traditional beliefs where the the people who are believing them today they have to hold on to them

01:17:40.980 tighter and uh because it's a choice now it's not something that'll just come to you kind of

01:17:47.160 out of habit you you have to make a very conscious effort and i'm i'm seeing that uh i think in the

01:17:53.900 evangelical world as well there's just a new crop of people that are willing to be hated

01:17:59.140 and and it doesn't take many jesus had 12 disciples uh 500 if you want to you know

01:18:07.100 right you want to take the largest number you know 500 people he turned the world upside down

01:18:11.860 in a generation, it doesn't take huge, huge numbers. It just takes really committed. And

01:18:17.760 I think the purity of, of what's happening right now is, I think what you're saying is absolutely

01:18:24.540 true. Um, and we may go through some persecution for a while that that's possible, but it's going

01:18:29.640 to be a refinement. Right. And, and that process already starting. And the persecution helps

01:18:34.720 because, you know, I think it was increased matters who, you know, the, the, um, faithfulness

01:18:39.400 beget you know um prosperity and the and the daughter ate the mother is that oh yeah i've

01:18:45.320 heard the quote yeah yeah so like with america it's just like there is like this rich history

01:18:51.400 of faithfulness and then it birth you know faithfulness does tend to like god ordinary

01:18:55.880 ordinarily blesses faithfulness and not just eternal blessing in the life to come but ordinarily

01:19:00.600 obedience brings about blessing and but then that blessing for the next generation that just assumes

01:19:08.280 that blessing, right? That thinks they hit a triple, you know, but they were born on third

01:19:12.360 base. Like that, you know, there can be some problems. And so I think what's unique is like

01:19:17.640 we're getting a real taste of hostility from a culture that hates Christ and insanity from a

01:19:27.700 that rejects Christ and chaos. You know, we're seeing, oh, that's why this matters. Oh, that's...

01:19:36.020 Whereas I don't think our parents saw that.

01:19:37.900 I think our parents were just like, they were kind of like,

01:19:41.180 that's where the 11th commandment of thou shalt be nice. 0.67

01:19:44.260 I mean, that's a boomer thing, you know?

01:19:46.320 And I think it's because they felt like we should be nice

01:19:51.380 because they didn't see anybody, nobody was being mean in their perception.

01:19:56.320 And now even boomers are coming around.

01:19:58.220 They're like, oh my gosh, like what is going on?

01:20:02.420 There's sort of a gentleman's code that made sense for the world

01:20:05.800 that we've left a civility you've talked about civility yeah there was I mean I have I think

01:20:11.320 George Washington's book on it here somewhere but yeah it's right here George Washington's

01:20:15.700 rules for civility but it there was this genuine respect and kind of thinking just thinking well

01:20:24.640 of one another extending charity not attributing false motives there's still some guys and I think

01:20:31.060 you're right it's boomers more it's even boomers on our side who yeah exactly in the sbc or you

01:20:36.080 know they still have this code they're operating by where if they're attacked they won't they won't

01:20:41.660 hit back they um they don't want to say names they don't want to call someone a false teacher

01:20:46.660 some of that i think is from that bygone era and um but that's that's kind of that's going away as

01:20:53.580 people get the rude awakenings and red pills and and if i could draw an analogy maybe this might

01:20:58.780 be a good place to land the plane i don't know but yeah go ahead i think with jordan peterson

01:21:02.360 and tim keller since those are the two biggest names we keep bringing up with a um with a tim

01:21:07.220 keller as we're thinking about coming persecution tim keller is going to be wearing the same uniform

01:21:12.600 that we wear on the battlefield and he's actually going to have some stripes on his uniform like

01:21:18.300 he's a general he's someone important we should listen to and obey and when he calls charge we

01:21:23.820 should charge of course he never uses that command but but but he's he's someone who claims

01:21:29.980 to have the experience been been there done that he's wearing our uniform jordan peterson on the

01:21:37.040 other hand is not wearing our uniform he's wearing a different uniform um it's it's from another

01:21:42.500 country or something but he's there in the trenches with us the difference between the two

01:21:47.760 is the direction they shoot in tim keller's gun is not facing the enemy tim's keller keller's gun

01:21:55.860 is facing you and me that's right warden peterson may not have our uniform but his gun is facing

01:22:00.740 the same direction great job and i and i think that is why there's a trust built because we're

01:22:07.620 in survival mode now right know that the church is actually under real attack and no one can

01:22:13.440 condensed it no no amount of massaging this will convince us it's not happening we know it's

01:22:19.300 happened and we're looking for someone who's gonna you're gonna help us fight or are you

01:22:24.500 gonna shoot at us are you with the enemy right right we'll team up with the french if we have to

01:22:29.360 you know for not david french but yeah the french not david no you're right john that's a fantastic 0.76

01:22:35.880 analogy and i think as we do that as we are in survival mode and as we're getting out of this

01:22:40.720 mess. Um, as we're at war, uh, let's partner where we can partner. But as we do, let's just

01:22:47.180 not, um, let's not make alliances that are so deep, that are too deep. I should say that we

01:22:55.340 can't back out of them later. Meaning that like, yeah, let's, let's affirm Peterson when he says

01:23:01.020 what is true. Let's not start calling, um, Peterson a Christian. And I think I've seen

01:23:06.560 some christians go too far they're too eager to say he's on our team and when they say he's on

01:23:13.020 our team they mean like he's gonna be in heaven with me like he's and we don't need to go that

01:23:19.960 and i think i think some christians some some of them genuinely regenerate but but just immature

01:23:25.880 and desperate to more desperate than they should have been did that with trump and it and it didn't

01:23:31.820 work out well for our team, for our uniform, saying, oh, Trump is, you know, it's great to

01:23:37.360 have a good, you know, godly Christian man in the White House. You know, it's like, what?

01:23:43.020 You know, like, will I vote for Trump over Joe Biden? My goodness, yes. A trillion times, yes.

01:23:49.520 But I can say, thank you, Trump, for those three Supreme Court justices. God draws straight lines

01:23:55.560 with crooked sticks. And Trump did do that. And he kept his promise, which is more than I can say

01:24:01.940 for most Republicans. And I want to honor him. And I appreciate him. And I hope God saves him

01:24:07.820 because as of now, as far as I can tell, he's going to hell. And I'm not looking up to him

01:24:12.560 for spiritual counsel or anything. You know what I mean? I can keep both of those things can be

01:24:17.000 simultaneously true. And I think as Christians who are actually engaging in the culture war that 0.95

01:24:22.300 does exist and that the bible does tell us we should engage in i think if we can just have that

01:24:27.020 mind about us with your jordan petersons or your donald trump or your benjamin then i i think we'll

01:24:32.440 be okay you know i i think there's a middle i don't think it's just uh anybody who's not um

01:24:37.800 1689 london baptist confession of faith is not on my side you know i mean that's what we're

01:24:42.480 deciding where are the where are the lines what you know like how how tight does it have to be

01:24:49.560 for me to partner and i think i think that there are degrees and and if we know those degrees and

01:24:55.400 we hold to those degrees and we don't make partnerships and i think that's what i would

01:25:00.140 say to guys like the daily why i would say um i understand you like dave rubin and he's your buddy

01:25:05.440 um but you doing a documentary on what is a woman and mocking the the the uh gender dysphoria 0.56

01:25:13.940 insanity in our nation which is worthy of mockery and is good um but then you know congratulating 0.95

01:25:21.420 dave rubin on uh his adoption that that's yeah yeah there's no that's what we don't want to do

01:25:29.200 so right yeah so you sound like a great augustinian two kingdom person right now

01:25:34.600 i city of two cities i'm down for two cities yeah all right john well thank you so much for

01:25:43.780 your time thanks so much for listening but real quick before you go do us a small favor take a

01:25:48.980 moment and leave us a five-star review if you enjoyed the show this is undoubtedly the best

01:25:54.740 way that you can help us get this biblically faithful content to as many people as possible

01:25:59.700 thanks so much

The NXR Podcast - August 09, 2022

THEOLOGY APPLIED - Jordan Peterson ｜ God’s Gift Or Judgment To The Church？

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