In this episode of Theology Applied, Pastor Joel Webin is joined by John Harris, a frequent guest on the show, to talk about Jordan Peterson, Tim Keller, and Megan Basham. They also talk about the SBC, Meghan Basham, and the Daily Wire.
00:02:32.360Real quick, name your books and where people can get them.
00:02:35.040They can go to worldviewconversation.com or they can go to Amazon or Barnes & Noble.
00:02:39.700The first one is Social Justice Goes to Church.
00:02:42.900And then the second one is called Christianity and Social Justice.
00:02:46.360And they're both about the social justice movement.
00:02:49.400The first one's kind of a history of how social justice got into evangelicalism.
00:02:53.640The second one is more of an apologetic against social justice and for biblical justice and all of that.
00:02:59.820Cool. Great. All right. Well, let's go ahead and dive into it.0.99
00:03:02.180So we corresponded a little bit before we started recording and sounds like there's things to talk about.
00:03:08.120You've already done an episode on this on your platform, but I think it could be cool for us to just chat a bit back and forth about the phenomenon that is Jordan Peterson.
00:03:18.400and not only Jordan Peterson, but kind of a larger conversation of what do we do as
00:03:23.660evangelical Christians who want to be not pietist, but also not progressives, right?
00:03:29.600So we want to have this orthodox, robust, conservative, biblical doctrine that we apply,
00:03:35.600that we, not just in our marriage and parenting, but we go into the voting booth as Christians.
00:04:09.600And I'll say that at least in the case of Megan Basham, who is a Protestant Orthodox
00:04:14.620Rock's Christian. I've spoken with her. But what do we do with that? When we find ourselves
00:04:20.360aligning with some of these guys who are, they're politically conservative and culturally
00:04:24.600conservative, but some of them, like Jordan Peterson, I don't think the guy's a Christian.
00:04:29.600I'm pretty certain he's not a Christian. But then I feel like when he's talking, I can amen
00:04:36.080more to Jordan Peterson than I can to Tim Keller. What's going on? And how do we live in this weird
00:04:42.380world because i i'm hesitant in fact more than that i won't just throw my lot in with the daily
00:04:48.040wire i appreciate them i'm grateful for that but i'm we're not the same i'm a follower of jesus
00:04:55.180i'm not catholic i'm not jewish you know so what what are your thoughts in navigating this just
00:05:00.880this weirdo upside down world that we're living in yeah well joel i think you're a good theologian
00:05:07.300And you can you understand the concept of providence and how the rain falls and the righteous and unrighteous and how even pagan philosophers at times can get things right.
00:05:19.540In fact, we were just reading today where Paul in a discipleship thing I was doing where Paul quotes a pagan philosopher.
00:05:30.260And I kind of like, you know, I noticed it.
00:05:35.020it just, I thought, wow, that's so interesting that Paul would do this. And he does it more
00:05:38.960than once. And pagans can sometimes have a right metaphysic, or at least one that's right
00:05:47.160often, most of the time. It gets basic things like there's men and women, right?
00:05:53.380Whereas some Christians or professing Christians, I should say, out there who might, they have
00:06:02.180the word of god right they have this book they have um they have revelation that they should
00:06:08.280be able to appeal to really what they're doing though they say that's what they say we're we're
00:06:14.840biblical christians but really i think what they're doing is their authority is not the word
00:06:19.020of god it's uh whatever's going to save them from the ire of the media or get to give them
00:06:26.160perhaps positively the praise of the media and cultural influential people so
00:06:31.700i think that's really the difference you have some pagans who are committed to
00:06:37.760at least a concept of objective truth in some sense even if it's just based on their sense
00:06:42.980perception a natural revelation of some kind and then you have christians who say one thing but
00:06:48.220actually they they don't even have as principle to stand as some of these pagans right and um and
00:06:55.140And so I think in influential positions in politics, you have, well, in especially conservative politics, there's somewhat of a lagging behind.
00:07:08.700It's a shadow that follows progressivism, but it lags.
00:07:12.720And so the popular political conservatives today that have influence tend to carry with them the ideas that were in vogue, you know, a decade, two decades, three decades ago.
00:07:25.140And now that's changing, of course, and we can talk about that. But, you know, just today, I saw an ad on Facebook, I think it was for this documentary, this is going to sound unrelated, but it's related for a, it was a documentary about country music, right?
00:07:42.160but it was a blm style documentary which had as predicated that it's it's black people who
00:07:48.680invented country music and it was stolen from them and they've been kept out of the industry
00:07:52.480and so right it's this blm kind of narrative and i thought to myself when i saw this i thought
00:07:56.760wow like country music i think of more kind of traditional middle america a little more at least
00:08:03.600in line with what i would think would be family values more than like pop or some other genres
00:08:07.480But here we have what was considered a traditional art medium is changing so fast. It's caving to this postmodern Marxist narrative. And I see that in everything, sports. I mean, it's everything. Political conservatism, I think, has lagged more. Christianity, even, like the industry of Christianity, Big Eva, right?
00:08:29.440But they've been a little more current with trying to keep up with this Marxist move than political conservatism.
00:08:36.840So I think it'll be interesting to see what happens in like two decades to see where political conservatives are at at that point.
00:08:43.980But for right now, they're still trying to conserve 1998.
00:08:50.900Right. No, you're absolutely right. I think that's really helpful because they're not led by this guiding moral fabric of the word of God is the inerrant and sufficient and the final arbiter of all truth.
00:09:07.280No, it's just, man, we'd like to get back to 1998. Things seemed nice back in 1998 when tough on crime policies and cleaning up New York and the war on drugs.
00:09:20.900and men were men and women were women.
00:09:23.540And, you know, it's like, yeah, well, that is better than now, certainly better than now.
00:09:28.500It's just, it's the, I always say it's the principles of Christ while rejecting the person
00:09:32.500of Christ, which never leads to the peace of Christ.
00:09:35.420And so, but what you said earlier, I think is really insightful because I think one of
00:09:40.580the reasons why we're finding more common ground with some of these conservative pundits,
00:09:44.880you know, culturally and politically conservative guys, whether they're Christian or not, is
00:09:48.700because um really it's like it's like the woke progressive social justice christians out there
00:09:56.640they're no different than the conservative non-christians um both what they have in common
00:10:03.760is neither one sees the word of god as uh the final authority right so right so what if it's
00:10:10.360the you know so if it's um the the woke social justice you know peddlers within within christian
00:10:16.220they'll claim to be Christian and they may affirm the Trinity and they may affirm, you know, this
00:10:20.940and may affirm that, but the Bible is never, it's never the final say. It's not the final arbiter
00:10:27.860for truth, just like these conservative pundits who don't even claim to be Christian. So really
00:10:33.400they're just, in a sense, they're just more honest, you know, like, so Jordan Peterson,
00:10:37.580when he talks about the Bible, it is abundantly clear, he's honest, at least, it's abundantly
00:10:42.160clear that um that he thinks the bible is really helpful um but but but it's his intellect and
00:10:49.040it's psychology and it's these other it's these other sources that that uh lie underneath the
00:10:55.700bible the bible is true because this tells me and this tells me and it's only true in certain ways
00:11:02.100allegorically and it's you know like so the bible is true in a sense i should say and it's only true
00:11:07.980in a sense, because this higher authority of psychology and sense perception and experience
00:11:14.180and tells me that the Bible is true, you know, or human history. Whereas, you know, for me,
00:11:20.380like, so I'm, you know, a presuppositional guy. So for me, it's like the Bible always has to be
00:11:24.640on the bottom. It's like, you know, you can, you can point to other sources and you can, you know,
00:11:28.500you can do these kinds of, John Frame used to talk about with his presuppositional apologetic,
00:11:32.380he would say it's, it is circular logic. He said, but it's, it's a big circle. He's like,
00:11:36.360it is circular logic to be fair, but it's like, we take them on a big circle and we can show them
00:11:41.000this source and that source. And at the end of the day, we know the Bible is the word of God
00:11:45.360because it says so, you know, and it's like, and I know that R.C. Sproul would disagree with that
00:11:49.840and classical apology, but I think of the apologetic, I think of the pre-sub kind of
00:11:54.060argument because I feel like both of these guys, whether it's the conservative pundit who doesn't
00:11:58.060even claim to be a Christian or it's your Tim Keller, you know, woke social justice guy who
00:12:02.260does claim to be a Christian. At the end of the day, what they both have in common is neither
00:12:05.860sees the bible as the final authority one says it the other just admits it but neither of them in
00:12:11.740practice actually view the bible as the supreme authority would you is that what you're saying
00:12:17.360yeah i think you're you're hitting it that uh jordan peterson i think is a more stubborn than
00:12:23.440a tim keller as far as um when the cultural winds are gonna blow really strong jordan peterson may
00:12:29.400be more resistant to those cultural wins. And he may even appeal to the Bible as one of the sources
00:12:35.880of inspiration, truth that hedges against these wins, but ultimately undergirding that is going
00:12:43.460to be probably a psychology or some scientific basis of, or, or, or even just an appeal to
00:12:49.160tradition, just, just tradition as tradition. And this is what's worked for so many years.
00:12:55.160Tim Keller, I think, he'll have a more right theology that he can articulate to you about what the Bible is, the nature of it.
00:13:01.600But when those cultural winds start blowing, Tim Keller figures out ways to do gymnastics with the Bible,
00:13:07.660to cram in understandings of justice where he's going outside the text to get these, but he doesn't tell you he's doing that, right?
00:13:16.160Jordan Peterson, it's obvious he's doing that, and he'll tell you that's what he's doing.
00:13:19.660And so I appreciate in some ways the honesty of Jordan Peterson and the stubbornness, and maybe that's phrasing it too negatively, but the courage really positively to stand against immense pressure from the world on this particular subject, social justice or whatever iteration of that.
00:13:37.260um and so i i really do think that christians who love biblical truth want to preserve it are
00:13:46.020looking to jordan peterson now some of them at least or they're they feel more in common with
00:13:50.800jordan peterson than they do tim keller which is really sad to me because who who should know
00:13:56.120more about the bible tim keller obviously but um peterson well and for the record i think
00:14:01.740killer probably does know more about the bible right yeah but he's just he he hides things you
00:14:07.920know that's right that's a scary thing i don't think it's ignorance on keller's part no i don't
00:14:11.780think so either go ahead yeah no i i'm agreeing with you i don't think so either i think with
00:14:16.700keller it's it's a motivation it's it's really an ethical issue with peterson and keller not so much
00:14:22.160an issue of knowledge they they both um they they both have i mean keller's knowledge is superior
00:14:29.020But I think Peterson has at least there's a character that he seems to have where he doesn't want to bend to just because the culture says something.
00:14:39.200Now, on that note, we do see Peterson bending on some things.
00:14:42.220So, you know, you see Peterson trying to as he and I don't know his motivation.
00:22:34.840But didn't they get, they got, I think, a 50,000, because you talked about this, I think, with Judd Saul, but they got a $50,000 grant from what organization?
00:22:51.580It was a different left-wing organization, and I can't, I think it had the word democracy in it.
00:22:58.560it was a democrat group it was yeah it was a very pro-democrat group that gave them money for that
00:23:04.640which totally you know like when i first heard that i was like oh my gosh you know like shock
00:23:08.920slash anger but then i think like well of course like if i mean think about that like who are the
00:23:14.560people that you know the democrat party their platform can has historically missed in our
00:23:19.360nation in terms of their vote it's it's white evangelicals right and so but if you could if
00:23:25.220you could put on your payroll, I mean, think about that. This is what politicians do all the
00:23:29.520time. You have people to run campaigns. You have people to turn voters and to turn counties and to
00:23:35.560raise awareness and to work with, with this group to, to, you know, to turn this minority group over
00:23:40.440to, you know, red Republican or this like, well, okay, here's a huge group that Democrats have
00:23:44.960been missing white evangelicals, Christians. And why wouldn't you put on your payroll? One of the
00:23:51.640most effective organizations in turning white evangelicals progressive aka the gospel coalition
00:24:00.180i mean they i mean they if they're not paid on a monthly basis from the democrat party they should
00:24:05.680be the worker is is worthy of the wages i don't know if anybody has gotten more christians to
00:24:10.420vote for democrats than the gospel coalition uh yeah i mean i don't i mean there's there's a
00:24:16.340competition there you can christianity today i'm sure has done their fair share of convincing as
00:24:20.460well and there's other organizations but uh i think you're onto something with that and um and
00:24:26.200it just goes back to um this is the organization of people who once found jerry falwell's politics
00:24:33.220attractive and would have been part of probably the moral majority and those kinds of things
00:24:37.080that are now that you know fast forward their children are now in gospel coalition circles
00:24:43.640and their ethics in the southern baptist convention are led by the erlc which can't even
00:24:48.620tell you whether or not a woman is responsible if she pays it wants to have a doctor give her an
00:24:53.900abortion right i mean it's it's moral insanity it's great but um and that's only one generation
00:25:00.560really it really didn't take all that long for things to change that much so in in that sense0.85
00:25:06.540yeah i mean the gospel coalition they can't go too far left too quickly because everyone's going
00:25:10.700to see that so it's been a move a slow move over time and when they get stalled um i've just
00:25:16.120noticed uh for instance a few years ago there there were more aggressive articles i think on
00:25:20.800um like i think there was a there was a gospel coalition article i remember that talked about
00:25:26.080jesus kind of having like a body dysphoria almost because he was god and man right so there were
00:25:31.720weird stuff like that coming out and i think that they paused a little they hit the brakes a little
00:25:37.220on that because people were waking up to these things and they i mean this recent debate series
00:25:42.440they've had i think has shown that they they realize they have a serious right flank that
00:25:47.560they have to try to at least do something about so oh yeah the debates seem like completely like
00:25:53.580just put together to appease that they say hey look right this position also exists within the
00:25:58.000gospel coalition we we like these guys too and and we're just we're just giving a voice to both
00:26:02.580sides you know right exactly like as if these are secondary issues but they were treating so many of
00:26:07.960them like primary issues and they still do so it's it's very confusing but it the only way it
00:26:12.960makes sense in my mind is that it's kind of a left-wing operation it is to try to over time
00:26:18.220desensitize get the church get christians to move in this direction jordan peterson uh ben shapiro
00:26:24.180the intellectual dark web folks they never really were in that they weren't trying to um take the
00:26:31.780mantle of Francis Schaeffer, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, you know, any religious right type
00:26:39.600group and say, that's our, those are our people and we're the leaders. They never did that. They
00:26:44.480were always outsiders. And so we don't have the same expectation. And we, like you said,
00:26:50.340you don't feel betrayed, I think. And there is just a common ground that we have. At least I
00:26:56.360can have a conversation with them on truth. And they're not going to call me like a bigot right
00:27:01.580away. They're not going to, that's not going to be an insinuation that I get from them as
00:27:08.080they're so worried about my conspiracy theories or my Christian nationalism or my misogyny or
00:27:13.760something, you know, that's the kind of thing that you get from the gospel coalition. And you can't
00:27:17.560really, and we're speaking broadly, obviously, but I'm saying many of the authors there, you can't
00:27:22.360have a conversation with them. And that's the way that we feel about leftists. You can't have a
00:27:26.600conversation with them and today that's really the thing that's dividing people as it's like
00:27:32.080really basic fundamental things now can we have a conversation is there truth can we can we like
00:27:36.860come around and and this idea that there's objective truth and start like talking about it
00:27:42.320or do we not even can we not even get off the ground right and i think i can get off the ground
00:27:46.540with the jordan peterson at least that's the way it feels when you watch him right and you see him
00:27:51.740He cares about truth. Even the thing he did with David Rubin, which I really kind of ripped apart because I think it was it was his ethics were nuts.
00:28:01.700Right. It was terrible. But even as he's doing that, you see him trying.
00:28:07.140That's why there's so much tension in his position, because he's desperately trying to go back to the rootedness of there is a male and female binary and they are significant and they're important.
00:28:17.480And you, David Rubin, you're fine in what you're doing, but you've got to recognize that, David, and you better try to bring in some female, you know, influences, and you better have a freezer full of breast milk, and you better do all these other things to compensate for the fact that you're not a female.
00:28:36.220Would you see the same thing from gospel coalition? If it was one of their, let's say it was one of these friendships, these not, not because marriage, right. Same sex marriage is wrong. But let's say it's one of these homosexual couple, but it's not really a couple. It's just these friends, you know, and like they, they would like get as close to the line as possible. And they're not recognizing these rooted, rooted issues in creation. It would be what's technically still allowable in the text of the Bible.
00:29:06.260PCA, you know, obviously not as a whole, but Greg Johnson, the revoiced guys, like they
00:29:10.340really went down that trail and yeah, no, you're right.
00:29:13.400And I think as you were talking, I think that's part of it, of what it is.
00:29:16.100It's like Jordan Peterson doesn't have the standard.
00:31:27.000Do you think that God is raising up these figures, in a sense, as influential in conservative Christian circles to judge the leaders that are there?
00:31:43.180I think it's the same as Deborah, right?
00:31:45.060So people always, you know, anytime I talk about patriarchy or I talk about, you know, male headship with elders and I would hold to a male diaconate and all these different things that I think are thoroughly biblical.
00:31:53.980well, what about Deborah? And I would say, yeah, Deborah, for one, of course, Deborah is not the
00:32:00.640norm. But even as the exception, what is God doing with that exception? Deborah is a gift to Israel
00:32:09.420in terms of practice, what she practically accomplishes. But in terms of the divine0.56
00:32:14.820statement being made with Deborah, Deborah is an indictment of the men in Israel. Deborah,
00:32:21.220is an, she is a judgment from God. And so absolutely, I think, you know, I think of like
00:32:26.760first Corinthians, you know, like God confounds the wisdom of this world with those who are0.86
00:32:32.580foolish, right? Not many of you were wise. And of course, that's speaking to the church in Corinth0.89
00:32:37.360that are now regenerate, now converted. Not many of you were wise, you know, but God takes
00:32:42.320these foolish things. So yeah, exactly. Balaam's donkey or Deborah or Gideon, or that's what God
00:32:48.840does. He takes weak things. And yes, there is obviously a clear pattern of God doing that
00:32:56.460with the church throughout the scripture, using his people that are weak to gain great victories.
00:33:03.960But that's not the only way that God does it. We see God do the same thing with the Assyrians,
00:33:08.320with the Babylonians. We see God use enemies, his enemies who are not his people, who are not0.92
00:33:14.440in covenant with him when his people are being disobedient and he uses other nations, even when
00:33:21.240they're at their weakest and gives them a great victory, supernatural victory over his people as
00:33:27.660an act of his judgment. And so, yeah, I think that absolutely that in God's common grace,
00:33:34.200he is raising up and giving platform to some of these guys who are a benefit to the church that
00:33:43.540has been obedient because God's not disciplining his children who aren't disobeying, not to say
00:33:48.380that anyone's sinless, but I think God is particularly, he's disciplining the sector
00:33:53.740of his church, which is, I think, a lot larger than I wish it was, that has been rebellious and
00:33:58.940saying, oh, yeah, Big Eva, nobody listens to you anymore. Doesn't that hurt? And they're all
00:34:07.600listening to Ben Shapiro. Like, they're all listening to a Jew who denies the divinity of1.00
00:34:13.300Christ. It's sad. And Big Eva would say, oh, well, see, that's just a sign that you right-wing0.98
00:34:18.760Christian nationalists, that you don't care about the divinity of Christ. No, when I listen to Ben
00:34:22.500Shapiro, I'm not listening to him for theology proper. I'm not listening to him for the hypostatic
00:34:26.560union. I'm listening to him because I have to go to a Jew to get some common sense because I can't1.00
00:34:33.040find it over here so it's yeah so i think it's an indictment on on left bobby scott at t4g did0.96
00:34:42.000exactly what you just said he brought up ben shapiro in front of everyone to basic and i don't
00:34:47.380it might have been fault lines i'm not sure what book there was a book that was there i think being
00:34:52.400sold and ben shapiro had endorsed it i believe it might have been fault lines anyway bobby scott
00:34:57.920went off on that or you know this is someone who denies the divinity of christ and we're reading a
00:35:03.400book that he recommended as if because because they love playing that guilt by association thing
00:35:07.720and it might have been carl truman's book because ben shapiro oh maybe it was carl truman's always
00:35:12.420like the rise and uh the rise and triumph of the modern self rise and fall yeah rise and try okay
00:35:17.360rise and fall the rise and fall of the gospel close wait no that's that's ad robos that's
00:35:21.660different yeah i actually just i i actually just listened to that book on audible uh i literally
00:35:27.300just it was great and and carl truman actually i just had a conversation with him because he came
00:35:31.300out here and and did a lecture um at one of the churches that we know and and the lecture was
00:35:38.360great his principles are great that whole that that book is fantastic um yeah i think it's just
00:35:45.000when you get into practical application when i when i asked him some questions of like okay so
00:35:49.640what does this mean that's where i he's well he's that's where i'm like all right man come on the
00:35:55.140greatest on his own college exactly exactly it's the practice but but if you want someone to
00:35:59.940outline where do these ideas come from yeah and and what are the underlining heart issues of why
00:36:07.480there's such this this need for finding identity within and self-actualization and a rejection of
00:36:14.660he's fantastic on that right but yeah no i i enjoyed the book i thought it was good too and i
00:36:19.580there's some things i'm chewing on right now there's a there's a there's a few kinks in the
00:36:23.840armor that i'm trying to work out in my mind i don't have fully developed thoughts one of them
00:36:28.340being that he doesn't really focus hardly on race at all and i'm like well that's kind of
00:36:32.320significant today i mean it came out in 2020 why is that um the other thing i i thought too and
00:36:38.260we're totally switching subjects should we do we'll go back we'll go back with this okay just
00:36:41.780a bunny trail for a while rabbit trail go for it here um the other thing is you know he he really
00:36:46.100does do a good job of showing okay here's freudian psychology we're fundamentally sexual
00:36:51.220beings here's uh the romantics you got to find truth within here's the frankfurt school everything
00:36:56.360is systemic oppression uh so he he traces these things the thing though i think that made his
00:37:02.740study different than um the study i did is that carl truman sees these forces it seems to me and
00:37:08.720i could be wrong i'm just but this is my sense after listening to the whole book as almost like
00:37:13.860they're disconnected unrelated um they're related in the sense that they built on each other or they
00:37:18.740they those the developments kind of um you know sequentially kind of brought about a state of
00:37:26.160affairs today that we see and we can identify but i don't see he think he draws a strong connection
00:37:31.980between them whereas i'm looking at all these things and i'm saying hold on all these things
00:37:36.080have something in common every single one of these things is against christian civilization
00:37:40.760right and they're trying to rip it down in various areas and it's not a mystery as to it's not like
00:37:46.800random or that all these forces converge to create what we have today that no they all were
00:37:53.280in cahoots in a sense and i know people are going to say i'm a conspiracy theorist but
00:37:56.800um they're all against god essentially there's no conspiracy with that yeah right you're absolutely
00:38:03.280right what it is it's it's pagan men who want to sin so so they are against the christian church
00:38:07.900because the christian christian church is just like john the baptist saying to herod it is not
00:38:12.080lawful for you to have her, right? So you've got sinners who want their sin, and then you've got
00:38:16.660people saying you can't have it, right? And so we've got to get rid of those guys. We've got to
00:38:21.660get rid of this institution. And there are multiple building blocks. There's the church,
00:38:27.020but there's also fundamental truths that they hold dear. There's the family, right? The nuclear
00:38:31.420family. There's patriarchy. There's distinctions of gender. There's all these different things
00:38:37.680that are standing in our way. And I think like, I really think it is as simple as we want our sin
00:38:42.820and someone is telling us we can't have it. And so then you, you come in with this, right? So,
00:38:47.780so everything becomes a disease rather than a sin, right? So I'm, I'm, I have anxiety or I have,
00:38:55.200you know, I have depression or I have like, everything is, is now diagnosed as some kind of,
00:39:00.200and there's a pill for that and there's a pill for, you know, and it, but, but then it's not
00:39:03.380just that so like there's the the sexual ethic of freud um but then it's like okay but man like
00:39:08.040there's still some things standing in our way like capitalism so let's bring in the economic
00:39:11.980component here's marx and it and it's like one by one between you know between freud um between uh
00:39:18.020marks on the economic uh side of things between uh who's the the rife guy what what's his first
00:39:23.180name oh yeah yeah yeah reef reef yeah um i i don't remember he was one of the poets uh but he like
00:39:30.940he had a ton of romantics yeah um so anyways but it's all my point or this is what i was
00:39:36.360gonna say darwin right so okay but but we still got this problem right we're trying to get rid
00:39:40.300of the christian church and god and and this whole institution that says we can't have our sin
00:39:44.260but it's really hard to get rid of god when we're sitting here in this universe with stars and a sun
00:39:51.120and a planet and oxygen like how did this so we need somebody on the science side of things
00:39:56.200to explain existence, physical materialism apart from God. And so that I think, I'm just saying
00:40:04.680that to say, I agree with you 100%. I think it was one focus, which is I want my sin. And there's
00:40:08.980something standing in the way, which is the Christian faith. So then I have to have a1.00
00:40:12.960counter worldview. But the Christian worldview is a robust worldview. It accounts for everything.
00:40:20.420and so so there's they're trying to come up with a counter worldview that allows for sin
00:40:25.280a counter worldview that allows for their idols um and and the christians keep poking at it right
00:40:31.040so it's like we have this specifically but what about that oh here's darwin oh here's freud okay
00:40:35.580and it took hundreds of years to concoct to make this thing called secularism or modernity and and
00:40:42.180now it now it pales in comparison but it is a full orbed it's inconsistent but it is a full
00:40:47.560orbed view to rival the christian world it's a religion for it's a religion exactly yeah no
00:40:52.540and that's well stated i think um so you have i another way i think to put it is that you have
00:40:58.640um an order a natural order that god has set um about and and he reveals this to us in his special
00:41:05.660revelation but it exists in nature men are different than women right this is a there
00:41:10.480are different nationalities different places people live with with um some some boundary of
00:41:16.460some kind, whether that's a border or a natural border, whatever. There's something to the natural
00:41:22.780order. There's something to the way God created humans and the way that they perpetuate themselves
00:41:27.940that is supposed to kind of keep going after it's kind. And these different thinkers who have come
00:41:37.040in are trying to rip down all these borders. Now, there's not a border between men and women. What
00:41:41.500are you talking about? There's no border there. Oh, borders on sexual expression? No, we shouldn't
00:41:46.000have any borders on that there shouldn't be any restrictions there and so they're trying to rip
00:41:50.040down all these things um what truman doesn't get into as much too but um i mean you can even hear
00:41:57.420it in the song imagine uh the ideas of nations themselves rip down that we don't want that we
00:42:03.900want just a globalist utopia he doesn't really get into the globalism aspect which is a huge i think
00:42:08.840in this and the blm is connected right to that uh to undermine um western european hegemony quote
00:42:15.460unquote and and really uh western civilization so there's there's all these different things and
00:42:20.940it's just it's what satan did it's it's going outside the boundaries god has created to make
00:42:26.920my own rules to so that i will be god and it's mixing it's it's yeah you're right it's blurring
00:42:31.840right and that's what god said to israel again and again you know with you not having two different
00:42:36.320fabrics and so it was to because you were supposed to be consecrated unto the lord sanctified you
00:42:41.360were supposed to be separate, you know, and like in covenant with God and no one can serve two
00:42:46.000masters, right? So you're in covenant with God and it needs to be a faithful covenant. God keeps
00:42:50.660faithful covenant. There needs to be not committing spiritual adultery. And so in all these, so
00:42:54.980polygamy, right? That, you know, or polyamory or, you know, we didn't even, you know, so there's
00:43:00.060the national eroding of national borders. But then you can talk about wealth, right? Well,
00:43:05.440what is capitalism other than you get to keep your capital, right? Well, no, no, no, no. Like
00:43:11.440we, no, it belongs to everybody, the redistribution of wealth and that we all just kind of are a part
00:43:17.420of this global system and every, you know, so it's, it's the, it's, it's equality, but, but in
00:43:24.240this quest of equality, it's equity. But in this quest towards equity, it's, it's the erosion of
00:43:31.360personal ownership. So, so there's no boundaries with that, no fences, no, I mean, if they had the
00:43:37.200utopia, there'd be, nobody would own anything. There would be no nations, there would be no bank
00:43:42.140accounts, there would be no, and, you know, and the result of course, is that everybody would
00:43:46.280starve and die, you know, but like, but that's, but that's what they, it's, you're, you're absolutely
00:43:50.980right. It's just the erosion of any kind of boundary you can think of, whether it be male,
00:43:54.440female boundary, you know, any, any of those kinds of things. But that's like, that's the way God set0.90
00:43:58.620up his world. In the very beginning of Genesis, God, it's like the world is without form and void
00:44:04.000and the spirit is hovering above the waters. But then God, he says, let there be, he creates,
00:44:08.600but then he separates. It's like God creates and then divides and then later fills, right? So it's
00:44:16.120like it's skies and waters, the waters above and the waters below, it's light and dark. And then
00:44:22.580God comes back and he fills. So the light is filled with the sun and then the lesser light
00:44:27.440to the moon for the, for the night, you know, and the stars. And so God, you know, fills the
00:44:31.680waters with fish and the birds, uh, the sky with birds. And so God fills, but the first thing he
00:44:36.320does is he creates expanses. He creates regions and sets boundaries and divides one from the other.
00:44:44.000And, and that's the very thing that I think the left constantly wants to get rid of.
00:44:49.340So how's this for a segue from what you just said to get, get back to what you're talking about.
00:44:54.080Yeah. Practically speaking, you said, you know, Truman's part of his issue is there he lacks or not him, but his writings lack the practicality.
00:45:03.140So what do we do with this? Practically speaking, it's to reimplement these these boundaries that God has put in place to try to once again, live as much as we can in the order that he has laid down for us.
00:45:14.300And that's something that I think the Daily Wire folks tend to agree with, whether they realize it or not.
00:45:21.080they're trying to still uphold certain distinctions certain boundaries because they see that there's
00:45:26.920something valuable to them and whether or not they base it simply on tradition or on natural
00:45:32.720revelation of some kind right they see that there's there's a value to them and they want
00:45:37.940to preserve them and that's part of their conservative uh now obviously that's changing
00:45:42.860some things they're real they're getting rid of or they're they're soft peddling to some extent
00:45:47.060But there's still this commitment to we want to try as best we can in this modern world to preserve true and beautiful and valuable things.
00:45:55.080Whereas we don't get that same sense from, I think, well, let's just say I'll use some names, people like Tim Keller.
00:46:03.380But, you know, it's also people like Jonathan Lehman or Joe Carter or the list goes on from TGC who are just almost Jonathan Lehman being nine marks.
00:46:13.340But nine marks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think I thought he had written for Gospel Cool.
00:46:16.800But so guys who are and I could be wrong, maybe maybe it's just nine marks, but I'm thinking of people that are very focused on cultural capital and how they're constantly thinking of their relationship or the church's relationship to the state and to the court of public opinion.
00:46:39.980and how do we get the church off how do we show i mean uh carl truman even actually to use him in
00:46:45.800his example he's so many right observations in that book but he wrote this article about pride
00:46:50.240month where he said so many good true things about we need we can't cave to the lgbt mob but0.83
00:46:55.700in the same breath he had to say and taking columbus down and confederate statues down that0.96
00:47:01.060was a good thing and and we need to fight the gay flag just as much as we fought those symbols and0.56
00:47:05.980And it's like, what does that have to do?0.93
00:48:42.900They became talking heads and got that opportunity because they were, they were on the streets
00:48:47.340and, and, you know, like, uh, whether it be like someone like, uh, I think it's Ben Crowder
00:48:52.340is his name, but the change my mind or, or Steven Crowder, yeah, louder with Crowder
00:48:56.680and, or, or Shapiro and, and some of him like on the street back and forth and these kinds
00:49:01.380of things that's where and and and then all of a sudden you know they became very popular because
00:49:07.280it turns out there was um there's a lot of people who still haven't lost their minds there there is
00:49:11.300still some sanity in america and so but that's like gospel coalition seems to be like wherever
00:49:17.220wherever whatever is already known whatever is tested tried and true so whatever we know the
00:49:23.700the culture likes and whatever they think that's where gospel coalition will play to whereas whereas
00:49:29.300there's other guys who are like, well, I'm just going to play to this because it actually is my
00:49:33.000conviction. Hell or high water, whether anybody agrees or not. And I think that that's commendable.
00:49:38.040And I think that's why we find Christians with spines saying, yeah, I appreciate Jordan Peterson,0.99
00:49:46.180what he's doing for what it is. It's not Christian, but for what it is, I appreciate that a lot more
00:49:51.260than I appreciate these slimy guys who have just been sucking up to leftists for the last 15 years0.62
00:49:58.780yeah that's just that's not commendable i'm not impressed by that we are we yearn right now for
00:50:04.320a confrontative uh prophetic voice in a sense uh and wartime calls for a different leader than
00:50:10.560peacetime so you can't see the gospel coalition running an article i can't see it at least
00:50:16.660that will call the prophets of bail names mock them talk about their god being on the toilet i
00:50:24.340mean i just can't see it ever happening it's going to be an article that's going to convince us that
00:50:29.920the prophets of baal are the mission field and we really got to make sure that we're um catering to
00:50:36.500them or or at least being winsome or somehow appealing to them so that they'll like us and
00:50:43.600someone needs to review elijah because he's right he's been exactly lately but stephen crowder who
00:50:50.500and i'm not saying he's a christian and i'm not saying um he's appropriate i think his show is
00:50:55.740crass i don't really listen to it but i've seen some of the clips obviously i've seen the change
00:51:00.020my mind yeah yeah i've seen some of those clips he is willing to do that like he's willing to do
00:51:04.140at least a version of that where he's going to mock the prophets of bail like he'll just make
00:51:08.120fun of them and i think we're so desperate for that so here's a question for you for christians
00:51:14.080i mean you're a pastor you have people going to your church they're probably asking you who do
00:51:17.720I listen to, when it comes to politics, okay, specifically, so we're trying to steward our
00:51:22.760vote well, and whatever other political involvement we might have, we're trying to do it in an
00:51:27.680informed manner. I mean, who do you tell them to go to? And if they do go to the Daily Wire,
00:51:33.420and they're trying, they realize the errors that are there, but they at the same time,
00:51:38.420do you think they get better information there? Do you think that's an alternative that's much
00:51:43.440preferable to, I don't even know, Christianity Today, for instance?
00:51:47.220Yeah. Yeah. If Christians go to Christianity Today, or if they go to the Gospel Coalition,
00:51:51.420or they go to the ERLC, if Christians do that, babies get murdered. It's a one-to-one0.99
00:51:57.880correlation. It really is that simple. If you take their advice, because that's the thing,
00:52:02.720if it walks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, then at some point, we got to just call it
00:52:07.200a duck, right? There's no way, there's no way, not a snowflake's chance in hell that the majority
00:52:15.560of the staff of the Gospel Coalition didn't vote for Biden in 2020. There's no way, because that's
00:52:21.280always who they're sucking up to, and they're always punching down on every conservative.
00:52:28.840And you can't look at that again and again and again and again. And I think that's like,0.50
00:52:33.220if you pressed right if it was offline and it wasn't a public forum it's not a panel and it's
00:52:38.340just you and somebody with the gospel coalition sitting down and having a conversation and say
00:52:42.460but dude like abortion like dude sodomy dude you know what i mean like i think they say yeah well
00:52:50.960yeah yeah i mean you're right i i you know i i don't i don't vote for biden and it's like
00:52:55.520okay but you know everybody reading your articles and listening to your pocket they they think that
00:53:00.160you do they think you do how would they think you don't and like like if i you know if i had a
00:53:06.280bracelet that said you know like ww you know td what what would tim do what what would you know
00:53:11.320keller do um like and and i'm wearing that bracelet and trying to channel my inner tim
00:53:16.520keller as i go into the voting booth who am i voting for donald trump or joe biden straight up
00:53:20.620like so yeah so um if the if my options are if those are my only options is the daily wire versus
00:53:27.060the, you know, Christianity today, then yeah, Daily Wire, because, because are they going to
00:53:32.900learn about Jesus? No. They're not going to it for that. That's right. But are they,
00:53:38.320are they going to, is that going to influence them in, if we're merely talking about the realm
00:53:42.520of their vote, right? Because that's the way the question was presented. Yeah, they're going to
00:53:47.060vote better by listening to Matt Walsh than listening to Jonathan Lehman. And, and, and
00:53:53.820that's sad. I'm not happy about that. I think, and this is what's so frustrating is part of the
00:54:00.040problem is we have too many experts and not enough generalists. I think we, and we have too many,
00:54:05.260you know, pundits and things like, you know, like these kinds of ministries are great, what we're
00:54:09.580doing, but this is why we need pastors because pastors should be, and it's a tall task and I
00:54:14.320struggle with it daily, but pastors should be generalist, meaning that a pastor should be able
00:54:19.260to tell you about the hypostatic union and tell you a little, at least a little something
00:54:24.780about a Christian ethic in the realm of economics and how that applies to your civil, your civil
00:54:31.640responsibilities as a citizen in the next voting election.
00:54:35.560You know, like, whereas we have to, when it comes to the public forum and podcasting
00:54:43.060and documentaries and news, you know, source it like it's, it's all these experts. And for one,
00:54:49.780the experts keep failing us. And, and two, I've just, I've just realized like, I just don't think
00:54:55.120we need so many experts. I think we need more. I think we need more generalists. And I think
00:54:59.740pastors especially should strive to be generalists that can say, this is the word of God. And it has
00:55:06.100application here, here, here, here, and here. And this is how to be consistent to not parent one
00:55:12.700way and vote another that's that's completely i know i know a lot of people who like the gospel
00:55:18.860coalition and uh and they are wonderful parents and and and their theology and parenting um is
00:55:27.580completely different than their theology with politics and they don't see that that gaping
00:55:33.200that's interesting you know what i mean they just it's it's just all it's all severed it's all an
00:55:39.120expert for this, an expert for that. Whereas it's just like, yeah, we just need a generalist to be
00:55:43.600able to say, no, no, the Bible applies to all of it. If it's this here, if it's God's Word here,
00:55:49.100it's God's Word there, and God's Word there, and God's Word there. So, yeah, I'd pick the Daily
00:55:54.820Wire over the Gospel Coalition or Christianity Today for voting. But if we could just pick
00:55:59.660anybody, then I'd send guys to listen to you. I'd send guys to listen to Doug Wilson, Jared Longshore,
00:56:07.320um tom askell you know like those guys address these kind of things not as often as i would
00:56:13.920like um but they do they talk about paul yeah and there are some christians in in that sphere
00:56:20.140more um uh oh god i'm trying i'm trying to think of um there's a his name is escaping me
00:56:27.240steve dace dace i believe yeah he's a christian yeah um i mean you have cross politic right that's
00:56:33.740show that yeah so cross politic is great cross politics here's the only thing so like gabe
00:56:37.860gabriel wrench is on our board with the right response love cross politic love toby love those
00:56:41.560guys it's it's sometimes tough when you have like this is a practical thing but when you got three
00:56:45.940guys on a show and especially when the mantra is like we're rowdy christians and they and they live
00:56:50.280it you know and they're they're like three really good friends and so there's so much banter and
00:56:55.240laughing and those kind of that sometimes i'm like i'm listening and i'm like earnestly listening
00:56:59.480and i i can't quite tell like what what did they say what was yeah like i missed that but cross
00:57:05.360politic in terms of their doctrine and those kinds of i think cross politics is fantastic and i like
00:57:09.040that you mentioned steve day so i forgot him but uh he he came on our show um a few weeks back or
00:57:14.380a month back and and honestly i like i started listening to him a little bit a couple guys
00:57:19.580turned me on to him and then i invited him on the show and he was gracious enough to come on
00:57:22.620and i would say that like okay yeah he's he's not like this i i don't think he's memorized calvin's
00:57:28.500institutes you know he's not reformed he's not you know like he's not as robust of the christian
00:57:33.280theologian as you know but um i i really do believe that he's born again i think he's a
00:57:39.060i don't think that he's um just a a conservative you know political pundit i think steve steve
00:57:46.360dace i think is a legitimate follower of jesus and i was actually pleasantly surprised in the
00:57:51.680conversation that i had with him um he's he's a conviction about scripture so he's a he's a great
00:57:58.480source yeah he and i mean glenn beck's a christian right i'm just kidding right he's someone yeah so
00:58:05.180i mean there are some voices and there needs to be more i mean if anything i would hope christians
00:58:09.780who are interested in that uh in politics can get involved in some of these things uh because
00:58:14.760Isn't it weird that some of the top conservative talk show hosts are Catholic, Mormon, Jewish, I'm thinking like Mark Levin, Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck, or they're just kind of secular.
00:58:28.260It's just weird because Christians are the largest voting bloc for the Republican Party or one of them.
00:58:34.820And it's just like we don't have a lot of representation in that.0.61
00:58:37.800And I wonder if that's pietism or there's something I think it is that's that's holding Christians from going in that direction.0.72
00:58:43.540But we need more. And that's if anything, this is if you're frustrated that Jordan Peterson is with Dave Rubin talking about freezers full of breast milk.
00:58:53.800And if you're frustrated that Tim Keller can't figure out a biblical ethic, if it was right in front of them, then maybe you're the person that needs to go out there, you know, learn these things and whatever hoops you got to jump through.
00:59:07.440maybe need to go to school but get the education and then uh go out there and start making a
00:59:12.460difference right there no you're right i'm glad you need more options i'm glad you mentioned that
00:59:16.920because i think there's a huge yeah there's there's just a huge gaping hole right now for
00:59:23.140a thoroughly reformed orthodox christian who loves the lord who sees scripture as the final authority
00:59:30.180uh to speak to politics because because right now it's like our options are um steve steve day said0.93
00:59:36.960it like this he was like our options are you can get stabbed in the face uh by nancy pelosi or you
00:59:41.480can get stabbed in the back by uh chuck or uh mitch mcconnell you know stabbing in the back0.54
00:59:46.660you know it's like like those are your only options it'd be nice to have an option of someone0.73
00:59:50.400who doesn't stab you in the face or the back you know like i think there's like three guys made
00:59:55.400maybe in the senate that i kind of trust right like maybe josh hawley josh hawley would be one
01:00:01.920for me yeah i'm trying to think who else uh there's there's probably like three i could
01:00:05.780probably come up with like three but ted cruz is okay but i like i was gonna ted cruz i'm on the
01:00:09.880fence on but yeah i'm like i'm like i kind of like ted cruz yeah yeah i mean he and he's your
01:00:13.760representative there in texas right yeah um we have nothing in new york i can't i mean i i just
01:00:19.000moved from the frying pan to the fryer here right yeah um you know what about blake uh blake masters
01:00:24.640is he running or is he like do you know who i'm talking about blake masters no i can't remember
01:00:30.620okay never mind let's not go there so so there's a point in case right there we need someone who
01:00:36.400knows the Lord but also knows politics you know he's running though I don't know who he is but
01:00:40.820he is running yeah Colorado I think so he's I've heard a few things from him and I think he's pretty
01:00:46.180solid he's a far right political candidate says Wikipedia that's what you got to look for so far
01:00:50.900far just so far I can't even see him he's exactly if a guy's far right then then you can be sure
01:00:56.180that he's probably a mediocre christian far far right if if in political terms if somebody's far
01:01:04.580right then i can i can usually bet that they're about seven or eight clicks left from me what
01:01:11.120would we be like literally like if we ran for office i don't have words they don't have words
01:01:16.100to describe how far right they're they probably just heads just explode when they start hearing
01:01:22.780the positions yeah they're there they didn't know that those positions they thought 100 years ago
01:01:27.360those positions died off and um they're just shocked that they survived the evolutionary
01:01:32.620process but history is a big factor too and and you're good with that john uh like you know but
01:01:38.440just i think that's another thing is like uh we you know the the victor gets to write the history
01:01:43.140books and uh and thinking about people's presuppositions in history i've been listening
01:01:47.460listening lately to uh i believe his name steve wilkins and uh him just talking about the founding
01:01:53.360of america and just you know like so this is something he said that i thought was so profound
01:01:57.240but he just said um you know the dark ages you know those times when uh when people believed
01:02:02.380in transcendent truth and that god created the world and then the enlightenment you know when
01:02:08.620people turned to secularism and reason and rebelled against god's like i mean think about
01:02:14.060even the labels and that's not to say there wasn't anything dark about the dark ages and
01:02:18.220that's not to say that there wasn't anything positive about the enlightenment but in general
01:02:22.000that's how history gets written is um uh submission to god bad dark uh rejection of god
01:02:29.540happy no the term dark ages is a complete pejorative and i don't even use it i mean
01:02:35.120unless i'm joking what do you just say middle ages or i say middle ages yeah that's what i'm
01:02:38.980starting to dark ages yeah it's a total um knock against that what came before the enlightenment
01:02:46.340is somehow barbaric and and um and it you know you even see it getting into our pop culture you
01:02:52.560like watch monty python or something i mean it's just guys slinging mud right that's the dark ages
01:02:57.040so right um and i mean and there were things that obviously there has been advanced have been some
01:03:02.580advances made that there's certain things about diseases we know now and stuff but it is it is a
01:03:07.720character. And I was talking to someone actually earlier today about the January 6th issue and
01:03:14.740how I am seeing history rewritten in front of my very eyes, something that I lived. I wasn't
01:03:22.580in the Capitol, but I was there that day for the rally. And I am seeing what I saw completely
01:03:28.260discounted, a different narrative put in its place, motivations attributed to myself and
01:03:36.200those of us who went and it's just it's amazing and i think if they can do that with something
01:03:40.360that happened two years ago why can't they do it with something that happened 100 300 500 years ago
01:03:45.240and and most of our witch trials is another example as i've been studying the salem witch
01:03:50.440trials and go ahead sorry but you're right that's another good example most of the things that we
01:03:55.200learn about are um let's just say the the aspects or the facts involved that can forward some kind
01:04:04.860of a case against the current political enemies are those are the things that are emphasized
01:04:09.980right and things that are left out tend to be the things that would not be so convenient for
01:04:15.940that narrative and I've seen this in so many different things and I wonder sometimes to what
01:04:22.180extent are there things that even my as someone who's studied you know history of American history
01:04:28.700at least how many things am I believing incorrectly I'm sure there's things I'm believing right that
01:04:33.860I just haven't looked into enough into the primary source material, which is one of the
01:04:38.500reasons I tell people, if you're going to study history, they say, what book should I read? I
01:04:42.260understand there's a place for secondary sources. I've written some books. I think there's a good
01:04:46.060place for that. I'm really big on sources, though. And I think if you can try to go back,
01:04:51.000try to read original speeches. You want to know what happened during the Civil War? Why don't
01:04:54.780you read Lincoln's first inaugural address? Why don't you read Jefferson Davis's farewell address?
01:04:59.620Why don't you, you know, there's actual documents you can read rather than going to some leftist historian who's going to tell you a retelling of that particular event or any event.
01:09:31.320There's another narrative that's true.
01:09:32.800But for me to get this right, to build an alternative that's actually true so that I'm
01:09:38.300not inadvertently guilty the very same thing i'm criticizing these other guys of um i'm i i cannot
01:09:44.360be lazy and i can't just take somebody else's word for it i've got to do what you're saying
01:09:48.400in the realm of history i've got to go to original sources and i've got to find out
01:09:51.660what was george washington really a deist right because i can now see for the first time in my
01:09:57.340life oh would there perhaps be an angle or a motivation for people today to want to teach
01:10:03.840my kids that george washington was a deist and and not you know and so and and and i think there's
01:10:09.880a debate to be had there and so but how am i going to find out well i'm going to listen to
01:10:13.660steve wilkins but i'm probably also going to have to read george washington you know yeah and so it
01:10:18.560would benefit you yeah so in all these things my point is that like you we're gonna if we're gonna
01:10:23.980do things well we're gonna have to build alternatives and we can't build alternatives
01:10:28.280if we don't know how to do electric work and plumbing and framing and we're gonna have to
01:10:33.020So what you're getting at, and I think it's very similar to, so it struck a thought in me that if you go to ancient philosophy, right, if you go to like Plato and Aristotle, some of the Greco-Roman philosophers, if you go to also the ancient Hebrew sources, like biblical sources, if you go to Solomon, you're going to find there's a commonality in this sense.
01:11:00.420There's, there's so much different between them ethically and just their concepts of God and everything. But the thing that I see that's similar, that's so much different than modernity is they both believed in a divine order. Both sets of philosophers believe, well, there is something, there is something higher than us that's created this place, or there's, there's, there's a place that we fit into it somehow.
01:11:23.340and um so one of the things uh there's there's a book um called ideas have consequences i don't
01:11:30.360know if you've read that by richard weaver it's i haven't read it but i've heard it sprawl used
01:11:34.180to reference it all the all the time oh it's a really you should probably read it some some
01:11:38.140time it's a really an interesting book um but the argument in the book is that as place basically as
01:11:45.320as um plato's the slackening hand of plato and then this world of forms that there's uh there's
01:11:51.580divine order, that there's, you know, there's these forms to shoot for, to strive for, these
01:11:56.920principles that tie together the particulars. As that kind of faded, and a philosophy called
01:12:06.520nominalism kind of gained sway, it gave rise to a number of things, one of them being specialization
01:12:12.660that there's, and in the Industrial Revolution, of course, made this also possible. But we went
01:12:18.080from the ideal man kind of being the philosopher king to the gentleman to now the specialist the
01:12:23.620person whose field of research is so narrow they can't tell you anything about i mean they know
01:12:29.600everything there is to know about you know some really i mean listen to dissertation topics when
01:12:34.760you go to a graduation some of these things are so ridiculous you're like you studied what you
01:12:39.040studied the habits of millennials from you know this year to that year and how they gave to first0.85
01:12:44.160Baptist church and what in the world? But, you know, they know everything there is to know about
01:12:49.140that, but they just don't know the principles that govern everything. And that used to be the
01:12:55.420thing that was biblically. I mean, that's what Proverbs is about. It's finding these universal
01:13:01.400principles. There are universals. God has laid them down. They apply to every field, whether
01:13:06.000it's history or science or art, or there's certain things that are just true. And I think as
01:13:13.560Christians, that's what you're saying. I think you're saying that's what Christians need is to
01:13:20.180be generalists, where we understand how the universe works, because we know the creator
01:13:24.700of the universe and the law he's laid down. And so, it doesn't matter what field we're talking
01:13:28.920about. Fauci comes up with something. I don't know much about medicine, but I do know Jesus,
01:13:33.780and I do know the way he laid the, or governs the universe. And I have, I can think for myself,
01:13:39.460I can go and I can research this knowing the principles I know and figure it out, even though I'm not an expert.
01:13:48.140And Peterson and those guys, they might be the Greco philosophers of today, but they have a, whether they believe in the same God we believe in, they do believe there is a divine order of sorts.