The NXR Podcast - April 11, 2023


THEOLOGY APPLIED - Mark Driscoll Vs. Matt Chandler & The Type Of Church Plants We Actually Need ｜ with Michael Foster

Hosted by
Joel Webbon Harrison Smith Antonio Griffith Dale Partridge Wewsley Todd Calvin Robinson
Mentioned
Andrew Tate E. Michael Jones Matt Chandler David Pryor Michael Foster Eric Tuffinsam Joel Webin Michael McCaul Hank Pryor Goliath Doug Wilson Canon Robert Townsend Homes Cornelius Van Til John Brennan Brandon Washington John MacArthur Daryl Harrison Mark Driscoll Gerhardus Voss and 14 more
DAILY TRUTH - You’ll NEVER Get Rid Of Your Anxiety, Unless You Do THIS ONE SIMPLE THING! DAILY TRUTH - The Kind Of Preaching You NEVER Hear From BIG EVA

Episode Stats


Length

1 hour and 6 minutes

Words per minute

187.23

Word count

12,474

Sentence count

412

Harmful content

Misogyny

23

sentences flagged

Toxicity

30

sentences flagged

Hate speech

30

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

In this episode of Theology Applied, Pastor Joel Webin is joined by Michael Foster, co-author of "It's Good to Be a Man" and Pastor of East River Church outside of Cincinnati, Ohio. In this episode, we talk about the importance of men in the church, the need for men, and why we need more churches planted.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
Hosts, guests, and mentioned names generated with spaCy (en_core_web_sm), reconciled against Wikidata.
00:00:00 All right, listen, guys, I get it.
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00:00:40 Hi, welcome back to Right Response Ministries. You're listening to Theology Applied, and I'm
00:00:45 your host, Pastor Joel Webbin. In this episode of Theology Applied, I'm very privileged to welcome
00:00:51 back onto the show Michael Foster. Michael Foster is the co-author of It's Good to Be a Man. He's
00:00:57 pastor of East River Church outside of Cincinnati, Ohio. And in this episode, we talk, we really just,
00:01:04 Michael and I have become friends by the grace of God, and I enjoy his friendship. And we talk
00:01:08 on the phone probably about once a week, and we basically just did a phone call where we hit
00:01:12 record. That's basically this episode. We talk all over the place, but it's interesting. We talk
00:01:17 about Andrew Tate. We talk about Mark Driscoll. We talk about Matt Chandler. We talk about Acts
00:01:23 29, we talk about apostasy. We talk about wokeness. We talk about guys needing spines. We talk about 0.97
00:01:30 Presbyterian versus Baptist and why Presbyterians like me, even though I am a Baptist and all these
00:01:36 different things. We talk about biblical patriarchy and post-millennialism and the need for
00:01:42 confidence, not in the flesh, but in Christ, courage, boldness, and that we need men. We need
00:01:49 more churches planted. We need pastors and we need to move forward for the glory of God. So
00:01:55 if you're interested in kind of just a behind the scenes conversation between Michael Foster
00:02:00 and Joel Webin, well, that's what you're going to get in this episode. Tune in now.
00:02:04 Applying God's word to every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied.
00:02:14 All right. We are back with another episode of Theology Applied. I am your host, Pastor Joel
00:02:19 webin with right response ministries and in this particular episode i'm privileged to welcome back
00:02:24 onto the show michael foster michael thanks for joining us i'm thinking about taking my this
00:02:30 and tying it into a bow tie because you got to look a little you have your fancy chair there and
00:02:37 and this nice suit look how dapper you're looking and i'm here in my my my hoodie i feel well you
00:02:44 I have to try, but you're coming out with a documentary with Canon,
00:02:48 and so your credibility has already been established.
00:02:51 I have to work on mine.
00:02:54 Or my lack of credibility, depending on the circles.
00:02:57 Depending on how much you hate Canon.
00:03:00 It's good to be here. Thanks for having me again.
00:03:03 Cool. Thanks for coming.
00:03:03 Tell our listeners real quick, what is the name of the church that you pastor currently?
00:03:08 East River Church.
00:03:10 Lord willing, it would be the church I pastor to, I'd die. 0.96
00:03:14 Or at least a 10 till I die. 0.96
00:03:16 There you go.
00:03:17 And where are you guys located?
00:03:19 Batavia, Ohio.
00:03:20 So we're about 35 minutes from downtown Cincinnati.
00:03:23 Cincinnati's got a big road around it called 275.
00:03:25 It makes a big loop.
00:03:26 So we're about 10 minutes off the 275 loop.
00:03:31 And we were just talking offline before we started recording,
00:03:33 but your church has blown up.
00:03:36 You guys, you know, you started less than a year and a half ago.
00:03:39 You said December 2021.
00:03:42 Not 2020, but 2021.
00:03:44 oh you know i said to you wrong i've lost track of time covid time yeah it was i get it wait it
00:03:50 was 2020 yeah we started in 2020 so it's been two years but still yeah a little so barely over two
00:03:56 years and you guys are already over 300 people on on a lord's day that's awesome that's pretty
00:04:03 amazing what do you and you said part of that is because you had a lot of relationships and did you
00:04:07 grow up in cincinnati what was the connection there and you said your elders you planted with
00:04:11 two other guys and they had a lot of relationships and connections that it wasn't just all the
00:04:16 internet you know we want to be a man and we're following michael foster people that came out but
00:04:20 it was just a lot of local people that actually had real tangible relationships what what's your
00:04:25 background with cincinnati so um cincinnati is a tri-state area it's where kentucky ohio and
00:04:32 indiana meet all on the ohio river so i um i'm from i grew up all over the place but my family
00:04:40 settled uh in my as i started uh high school settled in lawrenceburg indiana which is right
00:04:46 on the river across from where the creation museum is creation museums in kutaki i grew up on the
00:04:51 other side of that so um when i became a creation when i was 17 i ran into some skateboarders
00:04:57 preaching the gospel i thought they back then skateboarders weren't a bunch of preppy losers
00:05:02 uh they're actually like kind of hardcore losers like dangerous people right um and so i thought 0.71
00:05:09 oh man i'm gonna get in a fight with skateboarders i just became a christian my friends didn't want
00:05:13 to hang out with me anymore because i wouldn't shut up about jesus and then this guy skates up
00:05:17 to me and says um do you know jesus well i had a a t-shirt on that said no no jesus uh no peace
00:05:25 right and it had both uh the n o and the n o w so it was 90s you always had all these like kind of
00:05:33 funny t-shirts or dorky t-shirts so i thought he was mocking my t-shirt but he wasn't he um
00:05:38 His name is Eric Tuffinsam. He's a pastor at Christ the King Church today. He had just became a Christian, and so had I. And we became friends. And me, him, and his brother went all around kind of the tri-state area preaching the gospel downtown, did a Bible studies, drove up, street preached out in Chicago, Minucca Pretty Green, Robert Townsend Homes.
00:06:03 we got all around and uh he went to calvary christian school and that was a local uh christian
00:06:10 school in the tri-state so they had people coming from all over the place including people in
00:06:14 cincinnati so there was a family that wanted to start a bible study and they asked my friend to
00:06:20 lead it so he came down i went with them and then i eventually took over it that bible study
00:06:25 was um my wife uh lived at the top of the street attended that's where i met my wife
00:06:32 And we started dating, not courting.
00:06:34 And it was in the middle of I Kissed Day and Goodbye.
00:06:36 It was a big controversy.
00:06:38 But anyhow, so then those Bible studies I led, these kind of community Bible studies,
00:06:45 were always somewhere between 30 and 100 people.
00:06:48 They got really big.
00:06:50 And then I became a youth pastor, and I taught a lot of kids.
00:06:53 And I continued to be part of a skateboard ministry that would have hundreds of kids,
00:06:57 like anywhere from 250 to 500 kids show up.
00:07:01 Uh, at each event, we'd set up a mobile skate park. They'd come skate it. We'd sit them all down,
00:07:06 uh, preach straight Roman's roads, right at them, tell them to go into hell to repent. 0.86
00:07:10 Um, so I, I knew a ton of people in Cincinnati for that reason. And my wife's from the East side
00:07:17 of Cincinnati at one of those Bible studies. Um, I met a young man. He's 13. His name was David
00:07:22 Pryor. Uh, he told me he was learning the guitar and asked if he would leave worship for us. Uh,
00:07:27 So he started leading worship for us.
00:07:29 David today is our pastor of liturgy, our worship pastor here.
00:07:33 Now he's well into his 30s.
00:07:35 His dad, Hank Pryor, he's from out here.
00:07:39 He's Appalachian.
00:07:40 He's a true east sider.
00:07:41 I met Hank back when I was 19 and fiery and, you know, didn't know when to shut up and back out of controversy.
00:07:49 And, you know, Hank was a big old Arminian back then.
00:07:53 And then when I became a Calvinist, he was offended by that.
00:07:56 But then he became a Calvinist and, uh, and Hank, uh, he's in his sixties now, him and
00:08:03 his wife are here with us.
00:08:04 Hank's one of our, one of our elders.
00:08:07 We have two other elders.
00:08:08 Um, and, uh, so, uh, we've got people that have deep, deep roots out here.
00:08:14 So when we started a church in 2020, there wasn't a lot of churches that were open or
00:08:19 the ones that had open that were reopening, set a bunch of dumb rules, red caved and lack 0.78
00:08:24 spine.
00:08:24 and, and kind of where it got around. And I would say still to this day, the vast majority that are
00:08:31 people that are out of church have no clue that I wrote a book. Um, don't know, know that I have
00:08:37 a podcast. Uh, um, I try not to talk about my social media stuff from the pulpit. It's just
00:08:44 a little too self-indulgent in my opinion. And, um, and so they're here because of relationships,
00:08:50 because what the Lord's doing. And that's allowed us to grow a church that's actually
00:08:54 making disciples of locals and not just attracting sycophants that are into the same kind of
00:09:01 boutique collection of of secondary subordinate doctrines right like so i would call uh to offend
00:09:08 everybody i'd call post-millennialism a subordinate a subordinate doctrine that that doesn't mean it's
00:09:13 not important it just means there's like a bunch of other doctrines you need to understand for you
00:09:17 to rightly understand of course it's subordinate yeah the creeds don't yeah you don't have to be
00:09:22 post-millennial to be a christian but it's a blessing it's an awesome doctrine and a lot of
00:09:26 times people what i've noticed what's going on right now is people are really into subordinate
00:09:32 doctrines and don't understand the foundations that they're built on so it leads them to all
00:09:36 sorts of weird unstable views and that that goes for patriarchy i have a lot of people that
00:09:41 you know are into patriarchalism but don't understand the doctrine of authority from
00:09:46 scripture they don't understand honor your father and mother they don't understand the decalogue
00:09:50 There's just a lot that they don't get and they need to be taught that.
00:09:53 So I'm blessed that we are a church that's not made up of a bunch of kind of single issue radicals, but rather local people that want a church that's open, that teaches the Bible, isn't afraid to speak to the issues of the day.
00:10:07 And we're not.
00:10:08 We'll go there.
00:10:09 We don't have a problem with that.
00:10:10 But we also don't want to be simply defined by kind of the hot topics.
00:10:17 We'll speak to them, but this is a church, and we work our way through the Bible passage by passage, and it's always relevant, right?
00:10:26 So that's what we've been doing, and God's been blessing it, and that's what we're going to keep on doing.
00:10:32 Yeah, praise God.
00:10:34 You know, our situation is similar in the sense that we planted just a few months after you guys, April 2021, and the church has grown quickly.
00:10:44 we're about 200 at this point we started with 20 in my living room and god's blessed us and we do
00:10:51 have a lot of people which i don't think is necessarily wrong and you weren't saying that
00:10:55 it's wrong but we do have a lot of people who are looking for a church that um that holds to some of
00:11:01 those second tier doctrines that are not you know it's not something you must believe in order to be
00:11:07 a christian but they're significant they matter so post-millennialism is one of those things
00:11:12 uh reform theology patriarch well patriarchy is tough pitch yeah for us credo baptism uh but
00:11:20 patriarchy is tough man that like i'd be curious to get your take that's one that i'm struggling
00:11:26 with when it comes to marriage counseling or uh pretty much anything like i i've always said
00:11:31 this is secondary you know like um in the past that's what i've said at this point um i struggle
00:11:38 to even preach the gospel without the patriarchal presupposition.
00:11:44 I don't, egalitarianism is not just a secondary doctrine.
00:11:49 It's a, I think it's a heresy.
00:11:50 I think egalitarianism is a world eating virus that destroys Christodom and everything that
00:11:57 we hold dear.
00:11:59 Like somebody can be pre-mill and be in my church and we can get along. 0.86
00:12:03 They can be all mill and, you know, we can get along, you know, but if somebody's
00:12:08 somebody's egalitarian, like, in six months, they're going to be under church discipline.
00:12:13 You know what I mean? Like, something. Something's going to happen.
00:12:17 Well, it's—so, consistent egalitarianism will absolutely destroy the core doctrines of the
00:12:23 faith. So, for a few examples. Egalitarianism and transgenderism are very similar in that they say
00:12:31 they deny the essential nature of sexuality right so um basically the the roles that they
00:12:42 see sexuality as roles that are almost interchangeable so a really simple way i
00:12:47 explain it is that um a woman can't be a father a father can't be a mother right like you can't do
00:12:55 it that it's because it's it's not a role that's interchangeable it's a role that's rooted in
00:13:00 in a set nature right a set binary nature you're male you're female and there's things that come
00:13:07 out of that so they end up denying that that has that that has a lot to say about whether jesus
00:13:14 in his resurrection is still male right um also you have so is is humanity uh does sexuality
00:13:22 enduring you know is jesus a true human like humans to be humans male or female right um
00:13:29 But even more importantly or more central, maybe lower shelf, is just that we're being reconciled to God the Father through God the Son.
00:13:39 And so you have federal headship, representative headship right there.
00:13:42 If you deny federal headship, if you deny that we fell on Father Adam and that we can be reconciled through the federal headship of Jesus to God the Father, then you're denying the gospel.
00:13:53 And so consistent egalitarianism is aggressively against that sort of hierarchy, which is intrinsic to the nature of W imputation, right?
00:14:07 And so, yeah, it's a big deal. Now, a lot of egalitarians are inconsistent. They don't actually follow it all the way through. So I think that's why I'd say consistent egalitarianism is a heresy because it ends up denying cardinal doctrines of the faith.
00:14:24 But I also just more practically any church that is teaching on how to be a man and how to be a woman, how to be a father, how to be a mother, you know, is is going to be annoying and irritating to a feminist and egalitarian.
00:14:42 it's going to lead to lots of conflict so i think it is one of those doctrines that if you want to
00:14:49 put it in a grand scheme in a subordinate category okay maybe in the grand scheme of all history
00:14:57 i don't believe that but it certainly isn't a subordinate it's under attack right now right
00:15:03 yeah it's something that the enemy is attacking so i think uh wherever whenever something's under
00:15:09 attack that's what we have to that's the place we have to defend and so we anthropology is huge
00:15:15 and i'm glad that there's a resurgence in it yep amen yeah it's um i i think it does when like you
00:15:23 said when consistently applied egalitarianism when consistently applied um it does eventually
00:15:28 present itself as heresy in doctrine but but pastorally it is almost immediately um a heresy
00:15:36 in terms of life guard your life and doctrine in terms of action like because um if if we're
00:15:42 going to allow you know uh somebody to be egalitarian in the church uh you know let's say
00:15:47 it's a married couple husband and wife and like we're you know uh we're we're egalitarian well
00:15:51 one thing that's probably going to happen if they're sitting under your preaching my preaching
00:15:55 then uh they're they're probably going to either leave because they're uncomfortable or the holy
00:16:00 spirit is going to be working and they're going to be repenting they're going to be changing well
00:16:03 what happens if the husband becomes convicted and he changes, but the wife doesn't? The question
00:16:09 is like, okay, well, what about impenitent sin? What about, can I pastorally sit down with the
00:16:16 husband and his wife and correct her for being insubordinate towards her? Her husband now has
00:16:21 this newfound conviction. He's saying, sweetheart, I love you and I was wrong. I led you poorly,
00:16:26 but uh but i want to lead you rightly and i i want to i want to display and model and embody
00:16:32 that that um that masculine um patriarchal godly uh christ-like masculinity for you and for the
00:16:40 kids and and she's not having it like is it is that sin like that i think that's what's funny
00:16:46 for me when we say like a doctrine is secondary but but consistent belief in the doctrine uh would
00:16:52 cause that person to, you know, to be discounting 1 Peter 3, 1 Timothy 2, 1 Timothy 3, you know,
00:16:59 Ephesians 5, 1 Corinthians 11, 1 Corinthians 14, you know, like if that person is saying,
00:17:06 you know, well, you don't have to believe this in order to be orthodox, in order to affirm the
00:17:11 Apostles' Creed, the Nicene Creed, but by not believing this, I am regularly, in all practical
00:17:17 avenues, I am regularly disobeying some of the clearest black and white commandments in Scripture.
00:17:22 and not that are just mentioned once or twice, but all over the pages of the Old Testament and
00:17:27 the New Testament. And I'm driving my husband up the wall. And now the husband's coming and saying,
00:17:32 pastor, can you help us? And you've got your membership covenant that says, well, you're not
00:17:37 required to agree with us on secondary doctrine. You've basically just, you've covenantally just
00:17:43 given, and I'm not saying you guys do this, but I know some churches that the membership covenant
00:17:47 is so anemic you've just covenantally extended a license for sin uh and and you just like your
00:17:54 hands are bound there's nothing you can do absolutely i mean i think i've seen it happen
00:18:02 both ways we've honestly i've seen women come alive um and the and the husband is not i think
00:18:09 i think women are i've never seen that not once in my 10 years go ahead well i'm encouraged i like
00:18:18 hearing about this unicorn i'd love to find one in the wild one day um but go ahead well i see it
00:18:23 happen a whole lot um it tends to be middle-aged couples okay more than anything i don't know why
00:18:30 um i think so in your mid to late 30s a lot of people start to have enough perspective to see
00:18:38 where they screwed things up. And I think with kids, some of that stuff really comes home to
00:18:44 bear. And I've seen a lot of women want their husband to lead and want to follow them in kind
00:18:50 of a sweet spirit about it. And I think for me, probably what helps us accomplish that at our
00:18:58 church is that Emily and I have a really healthy, normal relationship. You know, my wife's really
00:19:05 sweet and they see how we react and uh interact and uh it's good i lead she follows but it's not
00:19:14 this sort of robotic robotic like macho you know you know anything like that and we we're just
00:19:23 happy we like hanging out together it's uh god has been kind to us and i think it's that total
00:19:29 ministry brought to bear on people both the preaching of the word and this us talking to
00:19:33 been invested in them i'm not feminists don't scare me they're just women and uh you know i'll
00:19:41 talk to them and and and love them and not and i'm not i'm not looking for a fight i think a lot of
00:19:46 men online have something to prove what do i i have i have nothing to prove to them you know i'm
00:19:52 i don't need to tell them they're wrong to for me to be right i'm willing to tell them that they're
00:19:58 wrong uh so i think there's kind of what i've i've just seen it happen a whole lot and then
00:20:02 me try to get the guys to step up. But a lot of them are so discouraged, lots of failures,
00:20:11 just the nastiness to argumentation that's happened in the past. It's a little hard.
00:20:17 So I see it go both ways, actually. And praise God for that. And I think just the word of God,
00:20:23 a real total sort of ministry. So I'll hit the guys hard, but I'll also encourage them.
00:20:30 I preached a Mother's Day sermon called Christian Women's Sin, and that was an accident. 0.77
00:20:36 I don't ever do stuff like that on purpose. 1.00
00:20:39 It was so funny.
00:20:41 It was Syntyche and Iodia in Philippians where there's these sisters or co-laborers in Christ, and they're at odds.
00:20:50 And the whole point I wanted to make is that here's a book that's on unity.
00:20:53 It's focused on unity, Philippians is, and here's two women fighting that threatens unity of the church.
00:20:59 and how often has a church been split by two women gossiping going to war a bunch of times they have 0.61
00:21:03 and i was like these are christian women these are christian women and someone needs to correct
00:21:08 them they need to be rebuked and they need to be corrected out of love so even christian women 0.85
00:21:12 can sin and i just went on to some of the sins of women gossip uh wine moms cat ladies you know 0.70
00:21:19 just go right down the line and and so then that i had planned that out and then i looked and my
00:21:24 wife said do you know it's it's mother's day this sunday i was like are you kidding me i was like
00:21:29 that's awesome you know so um but uh it was a couple women told me afterwards that like i
00:21:38 bristled when you said some things but i know it was true it was a little hard and so i just think
00:21:43 we just kind of come at everybody equally hard we we could we you know i was telling i was teaching
00:21:49 on modesty and explaining how modesty is like sound is volume um so a song that's too loud
00:21:59 you can't enjoy it right it's like static almost and a song that's totally turned down well you
00:22:06 can't enjoy that either and so modesty is subjective at one level where you're dressing 0.98
00:22:12 in such a way where a woman doesn't have to hide that she's a woman right women women shouldn't be
00:22:17 ashamed of their curves right but being comfortable with the shape that god's given you and flaunt
00:22:24 flaunting it are two different things right and and so we turn frumpy and modesty are two different 0.83
00:22:29 things that's exactly right yeah yeah women it's women should be beautiful and you can you can be 0.84
00:22:35 classy modest and beautiful right um actually classy looks way better um than than immodest
00:22:44 And so just speaking to the issue, telling women they don't have to be ashamed of their sexuality, but they also shouldn't make themselves into a spectacle, I think that's refreshing teaching because usually modesty is like you have to – it's got to be 10 inches for your ankles or whatever.
00:22:59 It's just these rules that in themselves you can cheat.
00:23:03 I mean, I, I, I knew some really, really loose Pentecostal girls growing up that wore their, uh, just for the, the viewing audience by loose. 0.99
00:23:14 I mean, they sleep around the Bible would call that whores. 0.88
00:23:18 Um, but, uh, but they, they wear their braids up and they got their little, their little Jean Jean skirts on and yet they're doing all sorts of crazy stuff. 1.00
00:23:29 you know like i think it's easier to have a sort of external law um a form that you can subscribe
00:23:37 to but when you get to those principles that like get you at the heart they'll that they'll follow
00:23:42 you know so i think one way we can minister to women right now is that we don't frustrate them
00:23:49 break their categories confuse them same way with men in other words they they think we're going to
00:23:54 say, they just have this sort of cartoonish monster of patriarchal teaching. And it's go
00:24:02 ahead and break their categories. And, you know, I think we do that with reformed people when they
00:24:06 find out that we're a reformed Presbyterian church are shocked. And that's because I'm not
00:24:11 up here using $20 words when a five cent word will get it done. You know what I mean? I don't say
00:24:17 Greek words if you don't speak Greek. What's the matter? Why does everyone have to say the Greek
00:24:20 work is the word is and they say they pronounce it all wrong you know so um i think it's it's a
00:24:27 little fun to to mess with people's cartoonish categories i think that that's part of how we
00:24:32 well i went down a rabbit trail with this haven't i but that's how we uh we we kind of start to get
00:24:38 to different segments is that show them that we're teaching the bible and the bible's the equal
00:24:44 opportunity offender to everybody yep amen and you know and with that you know with men i think
00:24:51 you know that like you're saying the stereotypes the cartoon image that they have of a patriarchal
00:24:56 pastor you know patriarchal uh masculine leader is you you just imagine a lot of guys think of
00:25:02 mark driscoll but i i think chandler was uh i think chandler was harder on on guys than driscoll or at
00:25:08 least comparable uh to driscoll i mean he's a guy who's you know boys who can shave and blah blah
00:25:12 like they both did it um driscoll yeah there's very i'll just say this there's very little
00:25:19 difference between mark driscoll and matt chandler in my opinion other than the fact that driscoll
00:25:23 is a more gifted leader um but in terms of character very different uh very little difference
00:25:29 between the two of them driscoll just got caught uh with some things and chandler i think i would
00:25:34 choose driscoll over i would choose driscoll over chandler if i was forced to make a choice though
00:25:40 I would.
00:25:41 And I think it's because of the pandering and slipperiness of Matt Chandler that I just couldn't take it.
00:25:55 I'd rather be underneath a straight-up narcissist that thinks he's the biggest, baddest man in the room than one that thinks that but pretends to be the most humble guy in the room.
00:26:07 I just think if I had to make a choice, I'm like, which, which, which I got to choose a poison. 0.61
00:26:14 I guess I'll choose this poison instead of this.
00:26:16 Yeah, arrogance and honesty over arrogance and sly.
00:26:23 Like, cause that's, that's all Acts 29.
00:26:24 I've told people this Acts 29, cause I was an Acts 29 pastor.
00:26:27 Acts 29 has always had one chief value and that is being cool.
00:26:32 and when chandler took over after driscoll um and they rolled out here's our new five distinctives
00:26:38 and one of them was humility and one of them was holiness um it was still make no mistake the chief
00:26:43 value was still being cool but what had happened is that in the culture the definition of coolness
00:26:49 had changed where being cool wasn't so macho and it wasn't so you know this and it wasn't so that
00:26:55 it was you know it was oh hey i i you know like a befuddled hugh grant pastor you know whatever
00:27:01 but that charming, you know, kind of, and because if it was really about holiness,
00:27:06 then you wouldn't have had Eric Mason, Leon's Crump, Brandon Washington, Dwayne Bond, all these
00:27:11 different wokesters, race hustlers that, that were right there on, on the international board,
00:27:17 buddy, buddy with Chandler. So it certainly couldn't have been about holiness. We know it
00:27:21 wasn't about holiness or Chandler wouldn't have had to sit down for using inappropriate joking
00:27:25 offline with a woman. And you know what I mean? Holiness was never what it was about. It was about
00:27:30 being cool. And, uh, and, and in the world, the verbiage was, you know, coolness had changed to,
00:27:36 um, to, I don't know, uh, to polite, you know, political correctness. So what's the,
00:27:43 what's a Bible where we can slap on that and call it one of our five distinctives, humility,
00:27:48 holiness, close enough, you know? So anyways, that's, you know, actually when I was always
00:27:51 about being cool still is, it was under Driscoll. It was just as much on at least Driscoll, uh,
00:27:57 you knew what you're getting you know like he he'd say i'm going to slap you in the face and
00:28:00 then he would proceed to slap you in the face whereas you know under chandler and some of the
00:28:04 new guys it's like i'm going to uh to give you a hug and then they slap you in the face you're like
00:28:09 what so anyway yeah well on that point actually my take on that since we're kind of freestyling
00:28:15 it tonight um yeah you know this is this is a thing that i'm struggling with right now i'll
00:28:22 admit is that you know my stars kind of rising i'm kind of ascendant or whatever online and
00:28:28 have a reputation and a personal brand all this nonsense and i i um i'm trying to figure out how
00:28:39 to so i i told you this a while back that i i was listening to a go t a uh interview go t a did the
00:28:46 song somebody i used to know was a real big hit and then he kind of disappeared and um and people
00:28:53 asked why he disappeared well apparently he just he said uh in an interview he said that he just
00:28:58 really cared about the music and and he said i like the influence i like to be able to influence
00:29:04 the music industry i just don't like the fame and that that really resonated with me because um
00:29:12 you know i i'm not really interested in being famous i think once upon a time i probably was
00:29:18 when you're young you just want to be important and that and fame seems like being important
00:29:24 but it's important to strangers right people that don't know you um it's not important to the people
00:29:31 that know you a lot of times the people that know you they they would love you if they're good people
00:29:37 they love you regardless if you were known or whatever and i've watched fame destroy so many
00:29:42 people and i don't want it to happen to me and i'm excited to have opportunities but i uh i've
00:29:50 just seen celebrity christendom just eat people alive and spit them up so part of what i'm trying
00:29:55 to figure out in this age of social media influence because what are you going to do
00:29:58 like the reason we lost so many churches to wokeism is that the good conservative pastors
00:30:05 weren't on social media they weren't on youtube they weren't on twitter they weren't doing
00:30:11 instagram stuff but all the wokesters the fraud guys they were they were they were very much they
00:30:17 had adopted that medium and and so they they discipled all the all these church members and
00:30:22 some of these decent pastors didn't even know that their church members had gone so woke you
00:30:28 know some of the pastors have but a lot of people had so then my thought was like well
00:30:32 you know propaganda is so thick out there there should be a counter voice someone should be saying
00:30:39 the truth on on twitter or instagram and even tiktok tiktok's not my thing but whatever if you
00:30:45 can get that map you know get the word out there uh get the word out there get the truth out there
00:30:49 push against the lies right and so i'm with you the one caveat though real quick about tiktok i
00:30:55 really would love for that to um legally be removed just because sure let's get the gospel 0.84
00:31:01 out to zoomers um but i don't want to do it while resourcing china to spy on us like tick-tock 0.94
00:31:07 i don't like go ahead sorry well yeah well i don't have tick-tock because it seems gay to me 0.57
00:31:12 so there's that uh but there you go but there's there's the communist angle there's the it feels 0.91
00:31:18 gay um right but uh two important angles i yeah i mean it's so if you're a gay communist you have 0.87
00:31:26 your platform. Um, but, but I think we have to have a voice online. You just like take things
00:31:35 like AI, you know, I've been playing around with a chat GPT. Um, I've got, I have a subscription
00:31:41 to chat GPT, uh, uh, dash four, and then I use it in my professional life to mess around with
00:31:47 things and just see what it can do. And I'm not a big advocate for it or whatever. I just want to
00:31:52 understand it because i think i really think uh this early ai reminds me a lot of kind of early
00:31:58 smartphones that the that it's not the same thing as the internet yet but it it's going to reshape
00:32:05 how people learn and do stuff it's going to totally change white collar um work i think we should
00:32:10 understand that i think pastors didn't understand social media they don't understand how it's shaping
00:32:15 how people think these like uh you know andrew tate is this um yeah i was going to ask you tell
00:32:20 me about that you recently did a talk that you came away tell us i did so i i've well so i talked
00:32:29 about it on cross politic but i'll use tate to tie back into this is that tate um is a pornographer
00:32:37 he is a kickboxing champion but he's kind of turned into this um enemy of feminism you know
00:32:45 enemy of the feminist society and it's it's kind of a an extreme cartoonish sort of macho thing
00:32:54 going on but tate's saying you know uh traditionalism is better men should want to be
00:32:59 excellent men should want to make money and men should appreciate beauty and want beautiful women
00:33:04 men should want to be successful men should want to be in shape and not fat and uh it's it's like
00:33:10 at stark contrast with the sort of uh just participation trophy fat you're beautiful no
00:33:17 matter what even if you're a dummy and settle like no ambition you know just the the kind of
00:33:22 mediocrity of our time and it's refreshing to young men and he was everywhere he's all over 0.88
00:33:27 tiktok all over instagram you know all these people are making clips of his talk he's he's
00:33:32 really he's really quick on his feet and even though he's living this hedonistic lifestyle
00:33:37 and there's so many things he says that's evil, calling out feminism for the poison it is resonated with young men everywhere.
00:33:45 And at my church's youth group, I said, so how many young men know who Andrew Tate is?
00:33:50 And none of them raised their hand at first.
00:33:52 And I was like, come on now.
00:33:54 And it was like – and I've looked into this and I don't care if your kid's homeschooled or not.
00:34:03 If their friend has a smartphone, they've seen a video of Andrew Tate.
00:34:07 He was like the most searched guy there for months. 0.78
00:34:10 And so Tate used – Tate red-pilled like millions of little boys into thinking feminism is terrible and wanting to be a macho man. 0.67
00:34:22 So it's hilarious to hear the big Eva type say, well, really hear all types. 1.00
00:34:28 Anyone that's kind of buttered up, well, don't you think Tate's a hedonist?
00:34:32 Yes, I do.
00:34:32 Don't you think that's bad?
00:34:33 I think hedonism is bad. Yes, of course. Well, we should just ignore them. Your kids aren't ignoring them. Your kids aren't. And so now we should say, you know what? Tate's right. Feminism is poison.
00:34:46 You know, now let me show you what biblical masculinity looks like. Let me show you what it means to be a man. And you know what? It is excellence. It's pushing yourself hard and everything. 1.00
00:34:55 we should we should grab a hold of it and say the truth but we've got all these people out there
00:35:00 that are influencing our children and we act like or our congregants we act like we just stick our
00:35:06 head in the sand and so the guys like us you know not that we've reached anywhere to the sort of
00:35:13 influence that tate's had in such a short period of time but guys like us are out there saying well
00:35:17 someone's got to tell someone the truth someone's there's got to be a contra voice you know it goes
00:35:21 out there and and then and then people find us and they're they're really refreshed by just simple
00:35:26 simple truth be bold have a spine be a man be a woman children are a blessing right get married
00:35:33 get married as soon as you can uh no the government can't tell you when to worship it's we're not
00:35:38 rocket science here right it's not that we can't hold our own theologically but like a lot of stuff
00:35:43 we're saying these things and and so now we we have influence how do we not go the way of gospel
00:35:49 coalition? How do we not go the way of the last 40 years? Or really, evangelicalism from the 1920s
00:35:57 on is kind of been a celebrity culture. It got paired together with the advent of teenagers.
00:36:04 That's why you had Youth for Christ and all that stuff. It's always kind of been mixed in
00:36:09 with the sort of youth culture wanting to be cool. I think it's baked in to evangelicalism
00:36:16 to some degree and how do we not repeat that that's something that i'm trying to figure out
00:36:22 that's why i've been very apprehensive about speaking at conferences unless it's it's kind
00:36:28 of a must or there's some sort of real like particular benefit that i'm after that's related
00:36:34 to kind of my mission but this is this i feel like is the battle for guys like us to to keep
00:36:41 our edge um to be sharp to be connected to our people and not let these things corrupt us because
00:36:48 man it is such a corrupting force and it concerns me all the time so there right there's there's a
00:36:55 thought that's great that's a great thought no i completely agree and um yeah the tides are
00:37:01 shifting and praise god for that people are getting red-pilled every day and people are
00:37:04 waking up and and you're right it's not like the sophisticated theological gymnastics is it's we're
00:37:10 not using you know all these 20 words and that's why our platforms are growing because people are
00:37:15 not listening to joel webbin because they think you know um joel webbin uh he's you know he's
00:37:22 read more theology books than tim keller they're listening to me um because because i always
00:37:28 describe myself like this i say you know even i'll even you know kind of poke fun at the fact
00:37:33 that i'm a baptist because i have a lot of presbyterians who listen to me and like me and i
00:37:36 say look you know that there's a bunch of uh mclarens you know presbyterian mclarens but
00:37:41 they refuse to leave the driveway this baptist uh pickup truck will actually will actually you
00:37:46 know put every piston it has you know actually firing and working and and we're going to go
00:37:52 somewhere and and i think that's what it is like i mean they're you know i've got a lot of
00:37:56 presbyterians in my congregation you know and and i'll even say you know i'll tip the hat you know
00:38:00 and say to you is, you know, Gerhardus Vos and Cornelius Van Til, and, you know, like, I mean, 0.96
00:38:06 you have some of the richest treasure troves in all of Christendom, but your pastors are lame 0.99
00:38:12 and cowards, and they won't do anything, you know, so if you can tolerate the Baptist, 0.98
00:38:18 and they do, they'd rather be with the Baptist, you know, that's actually gonna just say the 0.96
00:38:22 simple truths that, you know, the little boy, right, like Tate, Andrew Tate is just the little
00:38:29 boy saying the emperor has no clothes you know what i mean like he's not like he he's quick on
00:38:33 his feet he's charismatic you know and he's he's talented in good shape and good looking those
00:38:37 kinds of things but um he's he's not a rocket scientist you know i mean like he's you know but
00:38:42 but he's got a platform and uh and he's actually willing to say hey the emperor's um you know
00:38:50 completely naked and and he's actually willing to laugh like just mock the emperor and and turns out
00:38:56 There's a ton of people who have just been waiting for someone to let them do that.
00:39:00 And it's like, that's, I mean, that was Elijah.
00:39:02 That was, you know, like, like God has always had men like that who would, who would look 0.73
00:39:07 at the enemies, the people who were decimating the people of God and who were, and who were
00:39:12 mocking the triune God, like the people who just don't, they don't stomach it.
00:39:16 They don't put up with it, right?
00:39:17 Like David, it's, you know, so whether it's Elijah or whether, you know, against all the
00:39:20 prophets of Baal, whether it's Andrew Tate or whether it's, you know, or whether it's,
00:39:24 you know, you think of David, it's like this little shepherd boy and everybody's knees are
00:39:29 buckling, you know, and it's been days of the same routine, Goliath coming up. And it's not
00:39:33 just that Goliath is big and he's strong, but like David gets angry because Goliath is literally
00:39:39 mocking God. He's mocking the triune God. And David puts him in his place and says, you know,
00:39:45 you uncircumcised Philistine today, I'll cut off your head, feed your carcass to the birds. You 1.00
00:39:49 know like it's not winsome conversation it's it's it's real conversation that's like so like a
00:39:55 little you know like some guy like 80 robles he's not even a pastor 80 robles goes fishing and he
00:40:01 has his little company and he's a friend and so we talk and he's a great guy he knows his his
00:40:06 theology he's not dumb he's he's gifted he's a great guy he's got character but at the end of
00:40:10 the day he's just loving his wife loving his kids going to church as just a faithful church member
00:40:14 running his own business and uh and every free moment he has he's fishing and then every now
00:40:20 and then he'll come in sit in front of his his computer and put on a webcam and and you know
00:40:26 i just start talking and and get more views on some of his videos in the gospel coalition could
00:40:31 get on you know some of this why because he's just he's just pointing out the obvious he's
00:40:37 calling a spade a spade he's the emperor has no clothes so and we need guys like that he's got a
00:40:42 voice too he's got a great voice i'm proud to say i am subscriber 112 on 80 robles that's how
00:40:53 that's how far back i go to his youtube channel and i i don't know what is that now but someone
00:40:58 said you should check out my friend ad robles and so i went over there i watched one of his videos
00:41:03 i was like wow this is really good and um and at that time i think my youtube channel had which i
00:41:09 don't do anything on had like 2000 subscribers or something i was like well this guy should have as
00:41:15 many as i have you know now he's got way more um he's just really good i always tell people that i
00:41:22 am uh i'm presbyterian in theology and baptist in culture uh so uh i like i like a good fight
00:41:29 like a good potluck you know um and um and i'm not really interested in sweater vest christianity
00:41:35 is what I used to call the PCA guys, that you guys are southern gentlemen that won't get dirty.
00:41:44 And that's the problem.
00:41:45 These guys wear their sparring gear to fist fight.
00:41:48 They won't draw blood.
00:41:50 And I think as soon as right now we're at a turning of the tides, things are switching.
00:41:57 It's kind of hard to say what shape it will take, but the Gospel Coalition is on its way down.
00:42:02 No one really cares like they used to.
00:42:04 chandler sidelined driscoll is trying to stage a comeback but it'll never happen
00:42:10 and uh all those guys from neo-calvinism sort of excuse me neo-calvinism uh the young the
00:42:17 yeah those guys all those guys are kind of out of it um the the best of them got swallowed up
00:42:24 um by more traditional you know 1689 or or presbyterian denominations and they're just
00:42:31 kind of labor in a way but pretty much all the leaders got you're right all the leaders i think
00:42:36 got sidelined the guys who were part of the movement because i was one of the guys who was
00:42:38 a part of the movement i wasn't a leader i was i remember thinking you know i remember thinking i
00:42:43 was you know i was born at the wrong time you know that the whole you know reformed resurgency
00:42:48 you know this happened and i was in high school you know so i couldn't really i couldn't have
00:42:52 been a leader i couldn't have been a part of it so by the time you know i had planted a church
00:42:56 and you know was preaching you know um and those kinds of things and joined acts 29 it had already
00:43:00 have been going for, you know, 10, 15 years or whatever it had been, you know, and I'm coming
00:43:04 in late, you know, the 11th hour and these kinds of things. And I remember feeling bummed about
00:43:09 that in part because I was young and wanted to be important. Exactly what you said earlier.
00:43:15 But man, that was a mercy of God in so many ways because pretty much all the leaders in that
00:43:19 movement got sidelined. Now the followers, and I was one of the follower, I wasn't a big deal by
00:43:25 any stretch of the imagination. For the followers who were part of it, they all pretty much like
00:43:30 right down the middle like 50 50 split um half of them uh became confessional either 1689 or
00:43:37 westminster and the other half are apostate and that's about it there's no more the middle and
00:43:42 that's just i think that's like that is the headline of the story if we think of just the
00:43:46 last few years you know from like i think of like 2017 a lot of these you know and i understand
00:43:51 there are things earlier but in terms of like this visible you know fault lines like buddy
00:43:56 bauckham would talk about like the last six years five six years from like 2017 to present date um
00:44:01 it seems like the headline of the story what god providentially has been doing is just uh he's just
00:44:06 been taking away the middle ground choose this day choose choose yeah you know what i found this
00:44:12 morning i i almost posted it online i might post it but i i got um i got i've been banned from
00:44:19 comedy on the gospel coalition blog since september of 2011 wait you've been banned
00:44:25 september 2011 yeah that's impressive man you should get you should tweet that because that
00:44:31 right there you'll gain followers that's a that's a badge of honor and that's uh i was critiquing um
00:44:36 i was critiquing tim keller and um i was i started listening to tim keller in 2004 i think something
00:44:44 like that and uh and just go about the same time and uh you know early keller has a lot of really
00:44:52 good things to say and some of his his church planning manual is actually pretty good um at
00:44:59 least the the the version i have i don't know what it's like now i'm sure it's wretched but but i
00:45:06 remember i got his um bible study uh notes on romans and when it got to the part on homosexuality
00:45:12 in chapter one it didn't say anything about repenting of homosexuality he just skipped right
00:45:17 over it i was like you're in manhattan and you don't have anything that's talking about
00:45:21 repenting of homosexuality and like one of the more explicit passages in all of scripture. 0.97
00:45:27 But I started to realize that he was just kind of, he was very devious. And I had a similar 0.99
00:45:34 experience while I was in Acts 29. I left Acts 29 in 2008. In 2008, I planted a church,
00:45:43 Seven Hills Church in downtown Cincinnati with Acts 29. And what stuck out to me was two things.
00:45:51 was driscoll's was so angry all the time it just really stuck out how angry he was
00:45:57 and then also just all the guys what they said excuse my language but was how to have a kick-ass
00:46:04 worship service was this big talk in um the actually and i and it was a chat room that they
00:46:10 had for pastors back then it was a board this was before they had the city or whatever whatever
00:46:15 came after. But I just thought, yeah, I'm sick of this. I'm sick of everyone wanting to be cool
00:46:21 because there's nothing less cool than wanting to be cool. It's just like, it was just like so
00:46:28 desperate. And it was them wanting to be cool. And I think that kind of triggered me and opened
00:46:33 my eyes. And I started really like, what am I doing? What is this all about? And then I started
00:46:38 to look at Keller. And so I kind of went into hibernation for a long time and hung out in kind
00:46:42 of the the niche reform world and pulled out and and thought about it but you know it's it's kind
00:46:48 of funny to have like you wanted to be important and and went went into a degree of obscurity
00:46:56 and and now to have a platform where people lots of people care what i have to say
00:47:04 which is very strange you know um and or i don't know about you people treat me like i'm an expert
00:47:09 and everything. It's crazy. I get emails like asking me how to do all this stuff. I'm like,
00:47:14 I don't know who you think I am, man, but you are about to be disappointed. So, um, well,
00:47:21 even in that, uh, in the, you, you saw a screener for my documentary I did with Canada.
00:47:27 Yeah. Um, it was great. And I think in that, um, I just, I was thinking about how I was real,
00:47:36 I've got a sickness that I struggle with. And they caught me when I was pretty sick filming
00:47:41 part of that documentary. I look at the video, I'm like, oof, man, that's rough looking. I was
00:47:47 not doing well. And then they came to our house. And while my wife had made the inside of the
00:47:52 house perfect, my garage and my barn was an absolute wreck, man. And I was thinking, you
00:47:58 know what? This is good. This is good. The Lord will be honored by this because I don't have it
00:48:04 all together all the time and i definitely wanted to have it together and i wanted to be thinner and
00:48:09 i wanted to be healthier and i wanted my farm to look just right and didn't want it to look like
00:48:14 junk but you know what this is what real life looks like a lot of times you know and i think of
00:48:19 um that the the problem with celebrity is it's the same problem with pornography is that pornography 0.63
00:48:25 makes you think women look a certain way all the time you know and they don't and people think
00:48:31 pastors are always like awesome and never, you know, have it all figured out. And we're mature
00:48:38 men, you know, hopefully if you're a pastor, you're a mature man, but we're mature men growing
00:48:43 in sanctification and life is bumpy and life is messy. And I think wanting to bring, as we try to
00:48:49 help people transition out of feminism, out of wokeism, out of socialism, we need to help them
00:48:58 not lose heart by trying to live up to an ideal that no one actually lives. And I think that's
00:49:05 our challenge right now, because here's the word I hate. I hate this word, man. I hate it.
00:49:10 But we have to be authentic. We just have to be real. And the more that people talk about being
00:49:15 real, the less you can trust them. I mean, I put this out all the time, but it's like the car
00:49:19 salesman that says, listen, man. I'm going to shoot you straight. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to 0.93
00:49:26 you straight let me be honest with you okay let me tell you about this yeah you know and as soon
00:49:30 as someone says this is a real church for real people that church is fake don't go there like
00:49:36 like real churches don't say that real churches like just live it and so now what we have to do
00:49:42 is is use the opportunity that god's given us to minister to people to show them what real life
00:49:50 looks like patriarchy in real life is wonderful right post-millennialism applied because like
00:49:58 what i'd say the difference between you and a lot of presbyterians in my impression of you from
00:50:03 talking to you on the phone a bunch of times but i had the privilege to spend an avian with several
00:50:08 of your church members um out in austin not too long ago so i i i've got an impression of you
00:50:13 through your church members um i get the sense that the difference between you and presbyterians
00:50:18 isn't knowledge you have that it's willingness to apply it right that's it that's the whole game
00:50:23 right now is actually applying do something apply your knowledge live your theology out so
00:50:29 post-millennialism if it's uh if you're just arguing about it online whatever but if post-millennialism
00:50:35 means you're confident and you're not scared of this dark time and you're ready to take the bull 0.97
00:50:39 by the horns and this whole MGTOW men go in their own way so I'm not going to get married or they 0.87
00:50:43 might divorce me right post-millennialism means that you're bold right you trust god you know the 0.90
00:50:48 church is gonna have a victory that's what applied theology looks like and people need to see that
00:50:53 in your day-to-day life and so that's what we have to do we have you have to that's the challenge
00:50:58 to use the internet to to point people towards godly ministries where they can see whole life 1.00
00:51:05 lived out yep yeah we don't need a bunch of black-pilled guys you know who are just um
00:51:10 who are prophets you know fancy themselves to be a prophet and the son of a prophet and i saw this 0.60
00:51:16 coming you know back in this year and i saw that coming and i see the next thing coming and i've
00:51:20 always been right um but but it's like but it's not there's nothing hopeful it's it's not like
00:51:26 we can win or this is what we get it's like the world is going to hell in a handbasket and um
00:51:32 and i'm cool because i saw it 10 years before everybody else like um that's one of the things
00:51:37 i like i've just always loved about doug wilson um and you know i don't know everybody in moscow
00:51:42 and if everybody fits the bill you know but the guys that i've met in moscow uh and doug wilson
00:51:47 especially um i forget the exact term that he uses but it's like a jubilant um uh it's like
00:51:54 there's two different kinds of contrarians and one is a and one is a a joyful one and he's that
00:52:00 yeah right so like a joyful warrior whatever you know like uh but somebody who is you know who's
00:52:05 going to be satirical who's going to be sarcastic who's you know but who's going to have fun doing 0.99
00:52:09 it some guys that they're right the feminist isn't having fun the you know you know i mean like a 1.00
00:52:14 feminist is like an alcoholic right an alcoholic doesn't drink for fun uh they drink because they 1.00
00:52:18 have to you know they're desperate they're they're dependent they're weak they're they're pathetic 1.00
00:52:23 they're sick they're you know and and so is the feminist that you and and i don't mean sick in a 1.00
00:52:28 way that absolves them of moral guilt it's also sin but but yeah but they're sick that blue-haired 1.00
00:52:32 feminist is not having fun you know like there's a reason why they get memed i mean we literally 1.00
00:52:37 have memes you can right now everybody listening can picture like that that one chick you know 1.00
00:52:42 who's wearing glasses she's like yes you know and the other chick with the little funny hat you know
00:52:47 who's like falling down on her knees when donald trump is elected like i mean they literally are
00:52:51 like national icons we all make fun of them because and and we we make fun of them not just
00:52:57 because they're wrong. We make fun of them because they're wrong and miserable. Doug Wilson, like if 0.95
00:53:05 he, if it all pans out and turns out that he's wrong, at least he had fun being wrong. You know
00:53:09 what I mean? Like he's laughing, he's having a good time, you know, he's not taking himself too
00:53:13 seriously. So anyways, all that kind of stuff being said, yeah, you've got it. You've got to
00:53:17 apply your theology. And one of the things, one of the theologies that you have to apply
00:53:21 is that Christ wins. Even if you're a dispensational pre-mill guy, you know, like I would,
00:53:27 I would strongly advise you not to be. But even if you are still, it's like Christ wins. You know, 0.98
00:53:32 I mean, the only difference, I tell people all the time, I say the only difference between the
00:53:36 post mill and the Dispy pre mill, John MacArthur, and there's some really great guys on that side
00:53:41 who actually do stuff, by the way, like Daryl Harrison, God bless him. He does stuff, you know,
00:53:46 like Phil Johnson does stuff. And so anyways, but those guys, the only difference, we both believe
00:53:52 Christ wins. The difference is I believe that Christ will win through the church and they
00:53:56 believe that Christ will win despite the church. You know what I mean? That Christ is going to win
00:54:02 in the sense of like the church is in the ring. It's going to go all 12 rounds and Christ is going
00:54:06 to sustain the church as it's bruised and battered and it won't tap out. Praise God. But it's going
00:54:12 to be whittled down. It's going to be a remnant bruised and battered, but they will be saved by
00:54:17 the bell. Christ will get tagged in and he will decimate the enemy. But they believe Christ wins,
00:54:21 to be fair to the argument. But I believe that Christ is also going to win, but he's going to
00:54:27 progressively win by not just sustaining, but strengthening and building the church to where
00:54:32 each round it actually gets bigger, smarter, faster, stronger. And eventually the church
00:54:38 as the body of Christ, not separate, but as his hands and feet on earth, the church lays
00:54:43 hell's gates wide open because they can't prevail against it. So anyways, all that being said,
00:54:49 But if that's your theology, you don't just do hashtag that postmill while you're single and 35 and childless and don't have a job.
00:55:00 And you know what I mean?
00:55:02 Hashtag that postmill doesn't just mean Jesus is going to come in and get it done.
00:55:07 It means Jesus is going to get it done through his hands and feet.
00:55:10 And that's us in the world, the church, his bride, like his body.
00:55:13 And so that means we get to work.
00:55:15 real quick. And I'll turn it back to you. And I know we got to end, but I, I wanted to read for
00:55:19 our listeners. This is what I said. You guys will see this. I'm sure eventually, but you got to
00:55:23 watch the doc when it comes out, it'll be on Canon. You got to watch Michael's doc. Um, it's
00:55:28 for him and non's book on it's good to be a man, which I told you this offline, but, um, I was
00:55:33 really encouraged that you were like, Hey, non's got to be in it. We both wrote the book. We both
00:55:38 got it, you know, and that good on you. But I told Michael, I said, I watched the early screening of
00:55:42 your documentary. Great job. I said, here's my review. Why are you gay? And then I said,
00:55:47 here's my actual review. But it goes back to what Michael is saying. It goes back to what Michael
00:55:51 is saying about the simplicity, right? Like just applying simple Bible truths. I said,
00:55:56 here's my actual review. Michael Foster doesn't merely define manhood. He carefully lays out a
00:56:01 roadmap for attaining manhood. Undoubtedly, Foster provides a wealth of profound insights
00:56:07 into biblical masculinity. But I was most encouraged by the overwhelming simplicity
00:56:12 of this documentary. Manhood is weighty, manhood is hard work, but manhood is also surprisingly
00:56:18 simple. And by the grace of God, biblical manhood is attainable. That's what you did,
00:56:23 I think, in this doc. Praise God. That's wonderful.
00:56:26 You and Nan did it in the book, and you did it in the doc of just saying,
00:56:31 yeah, there's a bunch of $20 words, and yeah, manhood is not... We're not saying it's easy. 0.93
00:56:36 it's hard and especially hard right now because of feminism like it's hard for men to provide for 1.00
00:56:41 their families on a single income uh when when women are taking uh all the jobs like you have 1.00
00:56:47 to compete not just with other men you have to compete with other women and and the other men 0.97
00:56:52 these white knights are going to pay those women more than they'll pay you like the whole the whole
00:56:57 wealth you know wage gap is if anything it's the other way around and so it's hard but it's not
00:57:03 complicated there's it's like chopping wood chopping wood it's it's hard work you're gonna
00:57:08 sweat you're probably gonna bleed get some blisters but it's um but it's not complex hard
00:57:14 and complexity are two different things and you did that in that doc and you do that every time
00:57:18 i talk to you that's why i enjoy your friendship talking on the phone whatever you do is just
00:57:22 saying hey look this is hard work and we're probably going to take some take some on the
00:57:26 chin you know and i always think of the um green street hooligans i think was the name where he's
00:57:30 like sometimes you just got to get punched in the face once to realize you're not made of glass
00:57:34 yeah that was such a good and it's like some of these guys these pastors that just playing so
00:57:39 close to the chest it's because they've they've never taken a punch and i'd be willing to bet
00:57:43 some of them just never been punched in real life literally like that you know that they preach like
00:57:47 a guy who's never been in a fight and and uh but once you get hit in the face a couple times
00:57:52 right once you lose a third of your church which i've lost a third of my church like multiple times
00:57:57 throughout the last 10 years like once that happens it's just like man like i don't want
00:58:03 to be foolish i don't want to drive people away unnecessarily but um it's just it's okay like i
00:58:08 just want to be faithful and if that happens that happens like god is good i've never seen the
00:58:12 righteous go without bread like god is god's good my family's taken care of we moved across the
00:58:17 country some you know great friends came with us and god's blessing it again we already have people
00:58:23 we have a church things are happening so it's just like yeah it's just there's some scary things
00:58:28 but at the same time it's just do we believe christ wins and do we apply our theology and do
00:58:34 we are we going to go for it so any any final thoughts that you have michael yeah i'm thankful
00:58:40 that god in his mercy is raising up pastors that you know that we want to be masculine leaders
00:58:51 and we're not out here trying to prove that we've got it all figured out i don't need to be the
00:58:55 biggest baddest guy in the room um i'll probably outwork you though i don't i don't know if you
00:59:00 can keep with me but um but i i i'm i'm happy to see guys like yourself our friend uh dale partridge
00:59:09 um eric khan brian suve and then a bunch of pastors that nobody knows but we know
00:59:14 that are out there getting it done. I think, uh, as, as the, uh, as the man goes, so goes
00:59:22 the society. Right. And what we need is, uh, men back in the pulpit, like real men,
00:59:29 men with spines, men that, um, are willing to call it out and not be cowards, but men
00:59:34 that are also fathers and fathers. We know when to be rough with our children and we
00:59:40 know when to be gentle and compassionate, right? And that's what we need. We need guys that will
00:59:48 rip the wolves in half, right? With their bare hands and teeth, if need be. But we'll protect 0.92
00:59:55 the sheep, right? And I'm glad to see that's raising up. And that's why I think we'll see
01:00:01 a renaissance, a revival of godly masculinity. I'm confident of it. I've been, you know,
01:00:10 i've been patriarchal since 1999 right i've never i've never been a complementarian i've always been
01:00:18 against it um i i i got red pilled into patriarchalism through radical feminism through
01:00:25 reading shulamath firestone and the patriots or excuse me the patristics um back in uh a college
01:00:34 And I've been reading E. Michael Jones since 1999, been into all this stuff, reading radical kind of elements.
01:00:44 And, man, I am seeing things happen now that I never imagined in a million years would happen.
01:00:50 Like the people like, man, everyone reads E. Michael Jones now.
01:00:53 Some of your readers might or listeners might not know who he is.
01:00:55 But man, it's crazy. E. Michael Jones was like a radical Catholic that got fired from St. Mary's and wrote Culture Wars magazine and wrote a couple of really fantastic books on sexuality. To see him be commonly talked about by young men, it was like blowing my mind, man.
01:01:14 and a lot of the ideas that like i hear people use the word androgyny all the time i'm pretty
01:01:21 sure we're the one that made that word popular through our book and our podcast you're one of
01:01:26 the first guys i heard it from was your podcast yeah yeah i'm pretty sure but the thing is dude 0.97
01:01:31 i don't care who gets the credit i'm just sick of a bunch of feminine weak men i want i want you 0.95
01:01:37 I want a society that is godly, and I'm seeing androgyny talked about, effemacy is not a word 0.98
01:01:47 you used to hear. You hear it all the time now. You see guys that actually are reading some really
01:01:51 good stuff. Guys I know, go back to guys like William Gouge, who was a Westminster divine that
01:01:56 was a wonderful, patriarchal, godly man, very balanced and everything. So we see good things
01:02:03 happening. We see guys like, I knew Eric Kahn long before he even had a podcast. And I think
01:02:10 he said this online so I can say it. But I told Eric, I was like, Eric, you should start a podcast.
01:02:15 Your content's high quality. And I was like, here's what I did. And then he went and started
01:02:20 the Hard Man podcast. And I watched Eric and Brian explode on the scene. I think we see God
01:02:27 moving in young pastors and now moving in young men i think we have every reason to be optimistic
01:02:34 right like so i'm just happy i'm happy to be part of this time in history and i want us uh i want
01:02:42 us to pave the way for something that's more mature well-rounded and and willing to call a
01:02:48 spade a spade that's that's my final word also joel has a book coming up i don't know if i could
01:02:54 talk about it so but i i have written i have written a endorsement for it and it's really
01:03:01 good and uh and and so now now you got something to look forward to for the next episode of right
01:03:07 response ministries yep yes sir yep i yeah i'll announce more as we get closer to it but yeah i'm
01:03:14 excited it's it's funny because the book kind of has a little bit to do with the whole driscoll
01:03:18 chandler thing that we were talking about i you know i i really think that one one of the things
01:03:23 was um like driscoll would tell things like it is and he would say you know he would stick it to the
01:03:28 feminists and those kinds of things but i think it's um not having something to prove not trying
01:03:33 to be important and being able to do to have to do both to like men grow up but then also um
01:03:39 to to be able to like men are hurting right now and to be able to pastorally uh to love them to
01:03:45 have some compassion consolation and one of the things that i think got driscoll in big trouble
01:03:50 was um his message doesn't work in seattle um to to tell to tell all these men you need to be
01:03:58 single income providers your wife needs to be able to stay at home um and your kids all need
01:04:03 to be homeschooled or you need to pay for tuition for them to be in a private school
01:04:07 and you need to do all of that um and you have to do it here you also have to because he had two
01:04:14 messages that contradicted one was pagans the word pagan means someone who lives on the farm
01:04:19 you remember he would always say that pagan the pagan lives on the farm so you can't do that don't
01:04:23 be in flyover country be a missionary right so come here but also have a traditional rural mindset
01:04:32 but you have to do it in this city as a missionary and it just I think the reason Chandler didn't get
01:04:37 in trouble as quick as Driscoll is because he was in an easier context straight up Plano Texas
01:04:43 If you can't plant a church in Plano, Texas, God bless your heart, as we'd say in Texas.
01:04:49 All right.
01:04:49 Anyways, that's the last thing that I thought as you were talking.
01:04:52 I just want to say that.
01:04:53 But Michael, thanks for coming on the show.
01:04:54 I really appreciate it.
01:04:55 Yeah, it's always fun, man.
01:04:56 Thanks.
01:04:57 Can I be frank with you for just a second right here at the end?
01:05:01 Look, some of you guys, you're financially supporting this ministry.
01:05:04 And from the bottom of my heart, I say thank you.
01:05:07 I cannot thank you enough.
01:05:09 However, some of you, you just, you can't afford it. In fact, some of you, you shouldn't afford it.
01:05:16 Let's be honest. I mean, we're living in Joe Biden's ridiculous economy. Our nation and our 0.91
01:05:23 totalitarian political elites lost their minds over the last three years due to COVID. We have
01:05:32 written checks that we simply cannot cash. It doesn't matter if people change the definition
01:05:37 of a recession. We are living in a recession right now, regardless. Some of you are struggling
01:05:44 to afford a carton of eggs at the grocery store. You cannot support financially this ministry at
01:05:51 this time, nor should you, but you could still help us tremendously. I am asking you, please,
01:05:59 if you're willing to do so, take one minute of your time. Leave us a five-star review on your
01:06:05 favorite podcast platform, iTunes, Spotify, whatever that might be, this is the way the
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01:06:18 You leave us a five-star review, and our podcast shows up for more people. And the Word of God
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01:06:32 Help us get it out there. Thanks for tuning in.
01:06:35 You