The NXR Podcast - February 18, 2021


THEOLOGY APPLIED - Now Leaving California


Episode Stats


Length

28 minutes

Words per minute

171.35

Word count

4,827

Sentence count

263

Harmful content

Misogyny

1

sentences flagged

Toxicity

5

sentences flagged

Hate speech

23

sentences flagged


Summary

Summaries generated with gmurro/bart-large-finetuned-filtered-spotify-podcast-summ .

Pastor Doug Wilson of Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho joins Pastor Joel Webin to talk about the need for Christians to leave California. Pastor Wilson and Pastor Webin discuss the reasons why a Christian should leave California and the benefits of remaining in California.

Transcript

Transcript generated with Whisper (turbo).
Misogyny classifications generated with MilaNLProc/bert-base-uncased-ear-misogyny .
Toxicity classifications generated with s-nlp/roberta_toxicity_classifier .
Hate speech classifications generated with facebook/roberta-hate-speech-dynabench-r4-target .
00:00:00.480 Applying God's Word to every aspect of life. This is Theology Applied.
00:00:09.940 Alright, welcome back to another episode of Theology Applied. This is Pastor Joel Webin with Right Response Ministries.
00:00:15.980 And today I have a very special guest. We have Pastor Doug Wilson in Moscow, Idaho, joining us.
00:00:21.900 And we were actually going to be talking about tone and the importance of presentation in content.
00:00:28.140 I think what we're saying really matters, but how we say it matters also.
00:00:32.060 So we're going to go that route.
00:00:34.220 But kind of last minute, I'm throwing an audible and Doug is gracious enough to oblige.
00:00:39.100 So we're going to actually talk about what we're seeing.
00:00:42.760 I think right now in 2020 is a mass exodus out of blue states into red states.
00:00:47.300 I'm currently in California at the end of this year.
00:00:49.680 My family and I and about close to 20 other adults are going to be leaving the response
00:00:55.460 church in San Diego, California.
00:00:57.020 We're going to be going to Texas where I was born and raised to plant, Lord willing, a new church and and try to experience more freedom, more protection of our rights and ultimately try to produce more for the Lord Jesus Christ and soil that we think might be a little bit more fertile and might yield a better crop.
00:01:17.860 And so Doug's done a lot of work on this. He was actually influential for me personally in a conversation that I got to have with him over breakfast in Moscow earlier this year.
00:01:27.020 and he was urging me to go to leave California, and that was before COVID-19 even was on the
00:01:33.320 scene. So I assume that his opinion has probably only increased. So without further ado,
00:01:38.700 Pastor Doug Wilson, could you tell us just a little bit about yourself,
00:01:41.660 introduce yourself, and we'll go ahead and get started.
00:01:45.020 Sure. My name is Douglas Wilson. I'm the senior minister at Christ Church in Moscow, Idaho.
00:01:51.400 Those of you who know what Idaho looks like, it doesn't look like Iowa. It's not Iowa.
00:01:56.280 Idaho has a panhandle up north, and that's where we live.
00:02:01.740 We live up in the chimney of Idaho, and I've been the pastor here for 40 years plus, so
00:02:09.980 I've been here for a long time, and I write, and I blog, and do other stuff, so that's
00:02:18.480 the main thing.
00:02:20.700 Great.
00:02:21.460 You write, you blog, you pastor, and you get into trouble.
00:02:24.240 I feel like that should be on your resume.
00:02:27.140 Yes, but that's what the other people do.
00:02:29.280 I get in trouble, but it's the other people who get me into trouble.
00:02:32.840 That's right.
00:02:33.480 It's not whether but which.
00:02:36.840 Okay, so let's go ahead and start with this.
00:02:38.820 This is kind of softball, tee it up for you.
00:02:42.360 But what are just, let's go on both sides before we, you know, make a strong argument either way.
00:02:47.440 Just to be fair to both positions, both sets of convictions. 0.94
00:02:50.720 What are some good reasons for a Christian to stay in a state like California at this time? 0.57
00:02:56.800 And what are some good reasons for a Christian to consider leaving California?
00:03:00.920 What would you say? 0.79
00:03:02.420 So the first thing I would say is that you can't come up with a one size fits all scenario.
00:03:10.340 In other words, when Sodom was going to be destroyed, God wanted everybody to leave. 0.91
00:03:16.760 Everybody's supposed to leave.
00:03:17.940 And that's not the case necessarily in times of cultural disarray, which is what this is.
00:03:25.360 So what we're dealing with is not fire from heaven or California falling into the sea, at least as far as I know.
00:03:33.620 We are dealing with fire.
00:03:35.220 We are dealing with fire in California, just not fire from heaven.
00:03:38.940 I might change my mind about some of that at some point.
00:03:42.260 But when God sent the angels to Sodom, he wanted Lot and his family, everybody was supposed to get out, down to the last person. 0.66
00:03:53.300 Or in C.S. Lewis's great book, That Hideous Strength, where everybody who was favored by the Lord got out of Edgstow, you know, every last person. 0.77
00:04:07.500 Jesus tells us, when you're persecuted in one city, flee to the next.
00:04:11.620 but that doesn't mean that absolutely everybody has to, right? There are some times where a
00:04:18.240 person should stay and go into harm's way, like the Apostle Paul did when he went to Jerusalem.
00:04:26.060 So Agabus was giving, gave him a prophecy that you're going to be arrested, and Paul goes to 0.84
00:04:33.000 Jerusalem anyway. So the first thing I would say is that this is a decision that every servant of
00:04:41.320 the Lord has to make with regard to his own guidance, his own family, his own circumstances,
00:04:48.620 his own history, what he believes God is calling him to do. So if God tells everybody to get out
00:04:55.140 of Sodom, the person who hangs back is disobeying. But when you're leaving California, you might be
00:05:02.880 leaving California in obedience and someone else is remaining in obedience. So I wouldn't turn it
00:05:11.200 into, uh, uh, you're disobeying God if you're not coming with me. But I would say as a general
00:05:19.860 rule, um, people know how to get in, come in out of the rain. So, um, you, the refugee,
00:05:28.940 the refugee columns generally know which way to go. Right. All right. So, uh, just, just for
00:05:36.180 example, here in Idaho, if you look up U-Haul rates, what it costs to rent a U-Haul to go from
00:05:47.660 Portland to Boise, as compared to Boise to Portland, it's $90 one way and $900 the other way.
00:05:59.620 Right. Okay. And that's because U-Haul doesn't want
00:06:02.980 trucks driving back empty that's right they don't so they've got to adjust the costs and and and so
00:06:10.420 on um but that tells you what direction the traffic flow is you you you mentioned uh 600 000 annually
00:06:18.640 and then with your governor doing insane things like right outlawing gasoline-powered automobiles
00:06:26.480 2035 yeah by 2035 crazy yeah yeah yeah you say man um are are you trying to chase people out
00:06:36.500 yeah because that's what you're doing that's what you're doing uh so um basically what i would say
00:06:44.840 is that people are going to make decisions that have to do with their primary responsibilities
00:06:51.300 So your primary responsibility is as a would be as a husband and a father. Another primary responsibility would be as a pastor. Those are primary responsibilities. Secondary or tertiary responsibilities would be things like I've got a great job with this company and I like the benefits.
00:07:12.820 Right. Well, that's something to take into account. Well, if I move if I move my family, we'd have to start over. And I'm not sure I'm not sure how much of a challenge that would be. I think I can run the risk of staying here. It's only five more years till I retire.
00:07:28.520 Those are the sorts of cost-benefit analyses that individuals can undertake, but everybody should undertake that decision-making process, understanding that the blue states are under a heavy governmental mismanagement and a God-hating approach to life.
00:07:53.740 So if you remain, you need to remain with your eyes open.
00:07:57.920 If you go, you need to go with your eyes open.
00:08:01.500 Yep, that's good.
00:08:02.960 So part of my thinking with this is, you know, we always have, I remember one of your blogs,
00:08:09.220 you said, like, it's permissible, it's fine to leave a state like this, provided that you have reasons.
00:08:17.700 And so in terms of reasons, one of the reasons for me is, you know, we should always as Christians have a theological framework, some kind of theological conviction should be driving us.
00:08:27.940 And so for me, some of the convictions that I've come into because of ministers such as yourself that have really challenged me to think more deeply on certain topics.
00:08:37.480 So one thing for me is kind of coming into more of a Kyperian persuasion versus a two kingdom idea.
00:08:45.460 And then, um, and then, you know, I'm, I'm probably optimistic all mill, but, but, um,
00:08:51.660 a, I, I, I'm, I'm a, I'm a guy who probably be a, give me five years and I'll probably be post
00:08:57.540 mill. So just give me a little bit more time, Doug, but I'll probably be there. Um, definitely,
00:09:01.260 definitely, uh, think more highly of all the, all the post mill guys is just their position.
00:09:05.480 Like, yeah, I want, I want that position. I'm just trying to get there exegetically. But
00:09:08.800 that said, um, if you're more Kuyperian, if you're more post mill, optimistic all mill,
00:09:13.840 So I guess what I'm getting at is this, when I thought, when I was 23 years old and thought,
00:09:19.520 I want to plant a church and go to California, I really wish some people would have stopped me.
00:09:25.680 But God was, you know, sovereign as he always is.
00:09:28.720 I got there.
00:09:30.020 God does things providentially, even through the foolishness of men.
00:09:33.800 I don't think that I would, I thought, I think I bit off way more than I could chew.
00:09:37.140 I wasn't really prepared.
00:09:39.720 I don't think it was thought through.
00:09:41.760 But my thinking at the time was, this is the heat of the battle.
00:09:47.340 You know, Texas, where I grew up, there are churches everywhere.
00:09:50.080 California has far less churches.
00:09:51.540 There's more of a need.
00:09:53.080 But I was thinking through the lens.
00:09:54.840 I look now in hindsight, I was thinking through the lens of so much of it was saving the lost,
00:10:01.540 saving the lost.
00:10:02.520 And as I've grown in my theology, I never want to get to a place where I desire to do
00:10:08.660 anything less than seeing the lost come to saving faith in Jesus. But at this point in my life,
00:10:14.380 I don't want to do less than that, but I want to do far more. I want to start schools. I want to
00:10:18.600 start, I want to have a church where people are starting businesses and owning property and buying
00:10:23.700 homes. And I would like for our church, which we've tried for 10 years to own property and still
00:10:28.200 can't accomplish that goal because it's just, it's very, very difficult. So for me, I think
00:10:34.300 a big part of it is, you know, it's not like I'm moving on from the Great Commission. I just have
00:10:39.860 a better understanding of what the Great Commission entails, teaching people to obey all of Christ's
00:10:45.120 commands. And so because I actually want to, I think Phil Johnson said, I want to engage culture
00:10:50.780 the way that David engaged Goliath, right? So it's not like I don't want to engage culture. I just
00:10:54.580 want to engage it with courage. And I want to win the culture. I want to take over, not win friends
00:11:00.300 and influence people, but I actually, like, I want to go into battle and I want to start schools and
00:11:04.360 businesses and publishing companies. The things that you guys have done so well in Moscow, I want
00:11:08.560 members of my church to be able to own property. I don't want them to be regulated at every single
00:11:12.860 turn and corner with business, all those kinds of things. Because of that, I'm wanting to leave
00:11:17.780 California because I want, it's not just fleeing for safety for my children and my wife, although
00:11:22.720 that's part of it, but it's, I want to do a lot for the Lord Jesus Christ. And so for me, I guess
00:11:29.780 I guess my question is, am I thinking properly there?
00:11:32.320 Because I feel like a lot of the arguments that I hear from Christians to be somewhere like California,
00:11:37.160 it's a missionary mindset, which I accept, right? 0.99
00:11:40.300 Because if you're going to say nobody should be here, then we've got to stop sending missionaries to Russia.
00:11:44.280 We've got to stop sending missionaries to China, right?
00:11:46.040 Because by that principle, you just have to say any oppressive, you know, tyrannical place, we just don't go.
00:11:51.320 So certainly there's that missionary mindset.
00:11:53.660 And certainly we want to win the lost.
00:11:55.740 And the gospel thrives in oppressed locations.
00:11:59.360 Uh, under persecution, but at the same time, I just, I want to do more than win the lost.
00:12:04.260 I want to, what do you, what do you help me with that?
00:12:07.880 One of the first things, uh, yeah, we, we want to win the lost, but one of the first
00:12:11.700 things you want to make sure is that you don't, uh, lose the saved.
00:12:17.880 Right.
00:12:18.600 So, uh, and that means who are your, uh, here's a fundamental question.
00:12:24.620 Who are your grandkids going to marry?
00:12:27.020 Yeah.
00:12:28.300 Okay. 0.86
00:12:28.700 who are your grandkids going to marry? And this is related to culture building,
00:12:34.520 community building, in a place where it's not against the law to build a Christian community.
00:12:42.260 When you do that, when you have the freedom to build a community, you have the freedom to build
00:12:47.960 a staging area. So when Eisenhower was preparing to invade Normandy, he didn't send soldiers over
00:12:56.520 in onesies twosies there was a massing staging area where uh where you could i believe that we
00:13:05.240 should be thinking of california and be thinking of illinois and be thinking of new york but if
00:13:10.760 you want to take something on of that magnitude you should have people uh staging you know
00:13:19.600 resources ministries so what we're what we've been doing in idaho um i'll put i'll put it this
00:13:26.260 way i've had far more of an impact on california living in idaho than i think i would have had i
00:13:32.800 moved to california i'm proof positive yep that makes sense so if so leaving california is not
00:13:40.160 the same thing as writing off california right that's good okay uh what what you're doing is
00:13:46.520 that you've invested time there, you've got people you love there, you don't forget about
00:13:52.820 them, you don't move to Texas and forget about them, what you do is you start sending resources,
00:13:59.140 you start, is there a way to transplant your social media ministry, and can you focus on
00:14:10.380 places like california uh radio free blue states right right that's good that's helpful um
00:14:20.020 with with this fleeing all right so there's certainly uh the bible gives uh a framework
00:14:25.800 it's permissible for christians to flee uh provided they have reasons um but i've been thinking this
00:14:31.720 is another thought that i've been having lately i wanted to pick your brain on but um there's
00:14:36.940 fleeing to safety, but there's also like for the Christian, there's fleeing to the fight.
00:14:40.980 And so I'm, I'm kind of looking at the lay of the land. Texas is not as red as it used to be
00:14:46.360 when I was growing up, which is sad. And so I'm, you know, there are redder states that I could go
00:14:51.960 to and more conservative places, but I'm looking at, you know, places like California, places like
00:14:58.220 New York, deep blue. And it feels like, and I'm just curious if, if, if there's a better way to
00:15:04.140 think about this, it feels like, like when I think of, well, I think of your dad, Jim
00:15:08.800 Wilson and the, you know, the strategic point, the decisive point, you know, something that's,
00:15:12.520 it's winnable, but it's also would be significant if it was won, right?
00:15:17.060 We could, you know, Manhattan would be really significant, but I don't know if we're going
00:15:20.280 to take it.
00:15:20.700 And then, you know, Timbuktu, you know, with 250 population, we could take it, you know,
00:15:25.420 in two weeks, but what would it mean, right?
00:15:28.160 So that, that concept, you know, thinking strategic about the great commission and about
00:15:31.720 evangelism, all those things that your dad did a really great job. And you've kind of carried that
00:15:36.320 baton. That being said, there are the deep red states, there are deep blue states. Part of the
00:15:44.600 reason I feel drawn to Texas is one, my family's there, extended family. I want my kids to be
00:15:49.380 around grandma and grandpa, all those kinds of things. But two, I think of, you know, the battle
00:15:53.900 of Bunker's Hill. I think like, it feels like the decisive point. It feels like, it feels like a
00:15:59.300 place where it's, this is the thought I keep having. I keep thinking of Revelation, strengthen
00:16:04.320 that which remains and is about to die. That's how I think of Texas. I think, you know, strengthen
00:16:11.120 that which remains and is about to die. So part of me feels like there are safer, there are states
00:16:17.380 that would have a better refugee camp that the Californian could maybe go to, you know what I
00:16:21.880 mean, than Texas. But Texas feels like, man, if we could get some reserves, some Christian reserves, 0.80
00:16:27.080 um maybe we could win this what do you what do you think about that uh what you're highlighting 0.99
00:16:34.660 is a huge problem because and we're facing it here in idaho as well because we've had massive
00:16:40.860 numbers of californians right uh coming here and one of the problems is there's a certain category 0.62
00:16:48.100 of refugee who's fleeing something unpleasant but he doesn't understand the source of the 0.99
00:16:54.360 unpleasantness. Right. He's going to vote 1.00
00:16:55.900 blue in a red state.
00:16:58.120 Right. He wants to get out of the blue
00:17:00.300 state. Right. And he wants to get out of
00:17:02.300 the blue state because of all the
00:17:04.260 blueness. But then he goes to
00:17:06.220 Texas and he votes like a Californian.
00:17:08.600 Right. So what he does
00:17:10.200 is he tracks California into Texas.
00:17:12.640 Right. Okay.
00:17:14.280 It's the Israelites. Get out of Egypt 1.00
00:17:16.220 but you've got to get the Egypt out of them. 1.00
00:17:18.720 Exactly. We've had a number 1.00
00:17:20.240 of Californians
00:17:21.140 immigrating to Boise, for example, and Boise is now more purple than red. Idaho used to be a red,
00:17:29.960 red, red state. But now, because of all the Californians, there's some foolishness going 0.99
00:17:36.600 on in the city government in Boise. And the same thing is going on in Texas or in certain places 0.97
00:17:44.580 in Texas, where it's a lot more touch and go than it used to be. One of the things that you could do
00:17:50.780 is return and have as a goal
00:17:55.980 teaching Californians 0.85
00:17:58.900 where all the foolishness 0.99
00:18:02.320 that they fled originated. 0.91
00:18:05.220 Where did it come from?
00:18:07.520 How did it start?
00:18:09.380 When did California go crazy?
00:18:12.000 And are you helping Texas go crazy
00:18:14.260 in the same way?
00:18:15.800 Right.
00:18:17.120 Yep.
00:18:17.980 Really helpful.
00:18:19.300 So what do you think about that, though?
00:18:20.700 What would you say to a Christian in terms of choosing a place? 0.83
00:18:25.520 Should Christians prioritize purple over let's flee all the way to red in the sense of like strengthen that which remains and is about to die? 0.94
00:18:36.080 Do you think there's again? 0.99
00:18:37.980 Yeah.
00:18:38.860 Yes. 0.99
00:18:39.180 I think that Christians should prioritize purple, everything else being equal. 1.00
00:18:44.020 OK, right. 0.99
00:18:44.660 Yeah, of course.
00:18:46.040 Where does my family live?
00:18:47.380 Where can I get a job?
00:18:48.840 Correct.
00:18:49.080 Correct. So you've got other factors that that that apply to this.
00:18:55.620 But if everything else is equal and you feel called to engage, you want to go to the part of the battle where the the consequences of the results of the battle are still up in the air.
00:19:11.000 California is lost.
00:19:12.920 Exactly. Yep.
00:19:13.820 California is lost. South Dakota is not yet being contested.
00:19:19.080 Okay. Yep. Houston. Houston is a battle zone. Right. Right. Yep. Austin is lost, but places, Houston, Dallas. Yeah, that's helpful. So that being said, it just kind of sparking a thought. I mean, so all things being equal. So, of course, there are reasons to just to live in any state. And I think family being a big one.
00:19:45.320 Um, so, so for me, the biggest thing that you really challenged me with, uh, when we 0.51
00:19:49.260 had breakfast back in, I think it was February together was just, um, being a four generation
00:19:54.020 man, like what biblical masculinity, what does it mean to be a man?
00:19:57.880 He takes responsibility for others, uh, provision, protection, those kinds of things.
00:20:02.320 And thinking four generations deep, uh, the, the command to obey your father and mother,
00:20:06.660 um, maybe temporary, but the command to honor thy father and mother is, um, lifelong.
00:20:11.460 And so I'm thinking about my parents, grandma and grandpa now to my children.
00:20:15.600 I'm thinking about my wife.
00:20:17.020 I'm thinking about my kids.
00:20:18.600 And then a good man, and I strive to be a good man, lays up an inheritance for his children's children.
00:20:24.560 So I'm thinking parents, wife, kids, grandkids, four generations deep.
00:20:29.480 And it's like, well, the Bible's not about money.
00:20:32.340 It's not about, you know, but when you just draw out the practical implications of all the commands that Christ gives to us through his word,
00:20:39.660 it's a lot of work being a man I mean you're gonna have to do a lot of work I got to provide for my
00:20:45.080 wife I want to care for my aging parents I want to I want to provide for my children and their
00:20:49.460 children all these kind of things and so I was just thinking I don't know how to do that in
00:20:52.560 California California penalizes hard work and rewards laziness and so it's going to be really
00:20:58.680 hard to be the Christian man that I feel like Christ calls me to be all that being said
00:21:03.500 And I think the biggest thing for me to let go of that was so hard was just this missionary
00:21:09.420 mind.
00:21:09.900 It just felt like quitting.
00:21:11.740 It felt like failure.
00:21:13.800 And so really hard.
00:21:15.960 COVID-19 helped and just the Lord providentially, you know, from the time that you and I talked,
00:21:20.660 it wasn't that long ago, but, you know, a lot has happened since.
00:21:23.300 And so part of me is, okay, retreating back to a place where we'll have deeper wells,
00:21:28.660 deeper reserves, and I can actually maybe do more for California than I can as I'm presently
00:21:32.540 hear that you said that. That's really helpful for me. I agree with that. But here's my question.
00:21:38.840 Do you think there's a way, like the broad way I can ask the question is, what do you think is
00:21:44.020 the best strategy for Christians to win California to Christ? And I'll just show my hand here. I feel
00:21:49.160 like I think of the prodigal son. I think like one of the worst things that could have happened for
00:21:53.380 the prodigal is, because he came to his senses at the end of the bottom of the barrel, the end of
00:21:58.980 the rope. And I'm thinking, man, it almost seems like one of the worst things that could have
00:22:02.780 happened for the prodigal when right before he starts longing to eat the pods that, you know,
00:22:06.620 that were being used to feed the pigs in a far distant land. And it seems like one of the worst
00:22:11.240 things that could have happened is a member of his father's household coming and finding him
00:22:15.400 and giving him a handout. And so part of me, and maybe this is just too general, too blanket
00:22:21.340 statement, maybe not sympathetic enough, but part of me just feels like one of the best things that
00:22:25.940 christians could do for california is stop propping it up and like the prodigal son exit
00:22:32.120 california and then send our grandchildren back in once it's imploded and take over the land what
00:22:38.060 is am i being harsh am i what do you think i think that you're thinking like a general there
00:22:44.280 and i think that that's i think that that's reasonable so i would back up to one of the
00:22:49.600 first comments i made let's say um let's say you've got friends that don't go with you back to
00:22:56.260 texas and they're faith they're faithful christians they're fighting the good fight
00:23:01.020 i wouldn't hesitate to get them resources at all because they're not the prodigal son
00:23:07.360 that's right that's good right they're they're on a mission and yeah get them send them help
00:23:15.000 It's a frontier mission. If you've got acquaintances that use more than half suspect, didn't leave California because like Demas, they were in love with the world.
00:23:26.620 Yeah, they're they're still dazzled by the bright lights that I would just let it let it crash.
00:23:32.680 Right. Let them get to the point of the prodigal son, because that person is the prodigal son.
00:23:37.960 But there might be a faithful Christian who remains, who needs all your prayers and all your support and everything you can muster to send to them.
00:23:48.340 Really helpful.
00:23:49.420 Yep, that's really good.
00:23:51.660 Okay, so this is what we typically do, Pastor Doug, on the show.
00:23:55.460 We usually kind of wrap up the episode.
00:23:58.480 And then if our guest has the time, we love to keep them on for an additional 15 minutes for a bonus question.
00:24:04.860 And so kind of even modeling some of that strategy off of cross-politic, Gabe Wrench has been really helpful.
00:24:10.060 And he's actually on our board with Right Response Ministries.
00:24:12.760 And so he's been helpful with strategy and things like that.
00:24:14.700 And so we have our bonus content for our club members.
00:24:18.440 We call them responders.
00:24:19.460 And so anybody who's listening right now, if you haven't become a responder, we encourage you to do so.
00:24:24.080 And Doug, would you have 15 more minutes to answer a bonus question for us?
00:24:29.420 Okay, so just to whet the appetite before we close this episode, here's kind of the bonus question.
00:24:34.860 in three sentences, long-winded preacher here.
00:24:39.100 So there seem to be several new dividing lines forming
00:24:41.760 in evangelicalism, thinking of, you know,
00:24:44.680 we've got the old dividing lines,
00:24:45.960 complementarianism, cessationism versus continuationism,
00:24:49.380 Calvinism versus Arminianism, all those kinds of things.
00:24:52.160 And those lines have been drawn for a while.
00:24:54.200 But now all of a sudden we've got CRT, intersectionality,
00:24:57.860 differing responses to COVID-19, mask, no mask,
00:25:01.320 socialism versus capitalism, soft complementarianism, which I don't even really
00:25:06.360 feels like a jumbo shrimp, like an oxymoron, but soft complementarianism, all these different
00:25:12.020 things, new, at least seemingly new dividing lines. So in the same way that people who have
00:25:18.020 lived in California, like we've been talking about for several years, and maybe it's always
00:25:22.280 been in the back of their mind, but they're now getting real serious about, I think I'm going to
00:25:26.400 pull the trigger and leave. It seems like in my conversations with people, people who've been a
00:25:31.780 part of the same local church for several years, they're not your chronic church hoppers. They've
00:25:36.900 been faithful in a local church, all of a sudden are considering leaving their church because
00:25:41.600 their church that they thought was conservative for the last 10 years, all of a sudden their
00:25:46.000 pastor's recommending white fragility by D'Angelo or something like that. So how do you think with
00:25:52.140 these new lines being drawn in the sand, right? Because of the resurgence with Calvinism and
00:25:56.720 reform doctrine, it was getting people to cross a line, to come over to this side. And guys like
00:26:02.020 you and Piper and MacArthur and all these guys were helpful with that. But now it seems like
00:26:05.460 there's new lines being drawn. And it seems like there's not just musical chairs with what state
00:26:10.520 am I going to live in, in the union, but musical chairs with churches. Long-time faithful members
00:26:15.740 are changing churches.
00:26:17.400 And so my question is, do you think that's true?
00:26:20.800 And if so, how is this going to play out
00:26:24.140 for evangelicalism at large over the next two,
00:26:28.040 three, four, five years, even just a few years?
00:26:31.000 What is your prediction of what's going to happen?
00:26:33.660 And in general, is this a good thing or a bad thing?
00:26:37.420 So that's our bonus question.
00:26:38.580 Doug's going to come right back on
00:26:39.700 and give us another 10, 15 minutes of his thoughts.
00:26:42.700 And that'll be a wrap.
00:26:43.540 So thank you guys for listening.
00:26:44.460 And Doug, thank you so much for coming on.
00:26:47.320 I'm so blessed by your ministry.
00:26:48.960 And could you tell our listeners real quick how they could follow you and keep up with
00:26:52.160 what you're doing?
00:26:53.380 Yeah, probably the best clearinghouse is dougwills.com, D-O-U-G-W-I-L-S.com.
00:26:59.520 And you can pretty much get to anything I do from there.
00:27:03.080 Great.
00:27:03.620 Thank you, Pastor Doug.
00:27:05.120 You have been a blessing to me and a blessing to a lot of people in our church here in San
00:27:09.380 Diego.
00:27:09.740 So thanks.
00:27:10.260 as a special thank you for your gift of any amount we'll be happy to send you a free digital
00:27:15.920 book from our store to access this offer visit right response ministries.com slash offer we
00:27:22.640 highly recommend pastor joel's book am i truly saved if you or someone you know has wrestled
00:27:27.620 with doubts about the love of god this would be a great resource as a reminder to get this offer
00:27:32.980 go to right response ministries.com slash offer and thank you for your generous support
00:27:40.260 Thank you.